There seems to be a lot of Necron related tactics queries on this board lately, so I thought I'd take a moment to give my thoughts on the subject.

How to compete with Necrons.

There is a lot of talk these days about how poor the Necron Codex is, and how broken(in a bad way) it is and why the soulless automaton Warriors should be all but ignored when they rise from their tombs to harvest the living. I would say that this is simply not the case. I’ve been playing Necrons for several years and I have learned a few tricks along the way that allow me to hold my own against what are traditionally tough opponents for our metallic friends.

Now before I get into talking about list building I just want to touch on a few points regarding tactics. First of all, close combat is not where you ever want to be unless you are certain you are going to win and not be counter charged. The Necrons have some of the greatest mobility in the game, and if you want to win games with them you’re going to need to be taking advantage of this, and in so doing you’ll find that your Warriors and Immortals are going to have the opportunity to get the drop on your opponent’s infantry at times. If you see some Fire Warriors, Guardsmen, Guardians or Pathfinders within 14.99 inches of your Monolith Portal feel free to chop them up with your Gauss Flayer’s close combat attachment. That said… I would tell you to never assault any type of Marine, or anything that’s even marginally good in assault. Just stay away from them. Don’t try to rapid fire at Blood Angels or a large group of Boyz, that’s what your particle whip is for. Just stay the hell away from them. This took me so long to learn, I hope it is a lesson that a beginner would take to heart at the beginning of their journey with Necrons. Stay out of assault range in 90% of cases.

I mentioned mobility earlier, and I would say that this ties directly into avoiding Phase Out. This relies heavily on your ability to be on one side of the table where the Ork Boyz are about to charge your Warriors and remove your entire army from the game and suddenly being on the other side of the table and sitting on an objective. I personally never leave home without the Veil of Darkness. You think the Space Marines Librarians have something fancy with the Gate of Infinity? How about a Gate of Infinity with unlimited range and that doesn’t require a psychic check and doesn’t kill a member of the squad if you roll doubles? Those Nobs getting a little too close to a squad of your warriors? Suddenly you’re 60 inches way from them. As a side note, I’ve seen 10 Immortals used in this way to devastating effect. Not only does it allow you to keep a squad of Necrons that should be above your Phase Out threshold out of danger of most assaulting units but you can lay down 20 S5 AP4 Gauss Shots at a 24 inch range. I don’t personally use this tactic with the Immortals but I acknowledge its strength so I thought I should mention it. I like to save those points I’d spend on Immortals for more Destroyers so I find that jumping a squad of 10 or so Warriors around the board keeps me from phasing out just as well, and they’re also scoring so I prefer that in objective missions. The other wonderful tool for mobility that the Necrons have is the Monolith Portal. Again, those Blood Angels getting a little too close for comfort? Make a wall of Monoliths, turn them away from the advancing troops and teleport your warriors into a safe little table corner with 6 inches of living metal between them and the nasty assault unit. For this to work, you’ll need to think about “castling”.

When deploying my Necrons, I will generally keep my Warriors Squads in Reserve. Since I know I’ll be doing this, in a Seize Ground type mission I will place as many objectives within 12” of my table edge as possible so that my Warriors can wander on later in the game and claim them. I will put my Monoliths near a table corner with my C’Tan (I prefer the Nightbringer, YMMV, more on that later) along with 2 or three squadrons of Destroyers. This will allow me to advance if I feel so inclined, but more often, to wall off a corner for my Warriors to hide in if the situation calls for it. Once the castle is complete, with two Particle Whips blasting away at anything that comes within 24”, Destroyers lighting up anything within 36”, and a Star Vampire waiting to curb-stomp anything that tries to assault the Monolith, you’re in decent shape. One important thing to note here though is that you want to make sure you don’t leave any room in your castle for an outflanking unit to sneak in there and ruin your day. You might think that this would cripple your ability to claim objectives but, late in the game (and if you were smart with setting objectives), you’ll be surprised at how between your Reserved Warriors and Veil of Darkness teleporting Warrior trick how many you might end up controlling. This is particularly true if your opponent decided to try and get into your castle and ended up on the wrong side of the Particle Whip/Nightbringer tag-team.

Why do I prefer the Nightbringer? It’s pretty simple, really. I think the Etheric Tempest’s ability to make it impossible for Ork Boyz and Seer Councils and little Tyranid gribblies to assault my lines is incredible, and S10 that ignores any kind of save is really nice against things like Thunderwolf Cavalry. The Deceiver has his good points as well, The Grand Illusion lets you set up good fire lanes for your Destroyers on the first turn and the fact that you can’t keep him in assault if he doesn’t want to stay is really handy. Again, I feel this depends more on your play style than whether one is better than the other. Try them both out and decide for yourself!

If you’re going to make a Necron list, you need to think a bit about redundancy in units and its effect on WBB. I tend to bring several of the same unit, as WBB doesn’t function unless there’s another model of the same type within 6 inches. Whatever unit you’re bringing (Destroyers, Immortals, Flayed Ones), if you are going to bring one unit, bring two and keep them close together. Here’s a 2000 point list that I’ve had great success with in the past.

Nightbringer
Lord: Veil of Darkness, Resurrection Orb

10 Warriors
10 Warriors

4 Destroyers
4 Destroyers
4 Destroyers

Monolith
Monolith

If you look at the list you can see how you could follow the tactics I’ve outlined above, and if you think about it, 36 destroyer shots a turn really isn’t shabby. If you are just starting out with Necrons, I hope that this advice and this list will give you a little food for thought and with a bit of practice I’m sure you’ll be out there surprising people when you hand them their butt with your “broken and outdated codex.”

Thanks for taking the time to read this. Did I miss anything? Do you have any questions? Feel free to bring it up! I'm happy to discuss it.

This is a really descriptive and helpful tactica, good job! It's nice that atleast SOMEONE is paying attention to one of the ignored armies.

Hey thanks, buddy!

Glad you liked it.

@Monster Rain Glad to see you're writing for your 'Crons again. I'd love to see them come out of their dusty tombs again.

@All From the other side of the table I can testify that the Castle-lith tactic works very well.

The monolith probably the one unit in the Necron dex that got a major boost from 5th ed. Not only in that vehicles can longer be destroyed on a glance, but also from the proliferation and over-reliance on melta to bust tanks (monoliths laugh at melta). Attacking two of those things with a C'Tan lurking nearby is a tall order. Killing all three would take some kind of act of god (or a manticore, a serious lascannon battery and a bit of luck).

Even if you do manage to remove them, they'll probably have taken such a fearsome toll on your army that what forces you do have left will be either out of position or useless. Therefore the whole goal as an opponent is to force a phase out by knocking down destroyers in the early game and then finding a way to get to the warriors in the mid-late game. If you can kill this army down to 8 models (not including the monolith and nightbringer) then it goes away and you auto-win.

Of course against Monster Rain this means that I have to go through aforementioned monoliths and c'tan to get to those warriors. It is that added difficulty of killing the warriors, not the lethality of the destroyers, c'tan and monoliths, that really makes this strategy so dangerous.

In essence this strategy attempts to take the most glaring weakness of Necrons in 5th - the fragility of warriors and the phase outs that result from losing them - and remove it from the equation. What you have left is an army full of useful special rules that can destroy an unprepared player and give even a veteran necron-fighter a really really hard time.

Droofus wrote:@Monster Rain Glad to see you're writing for your 'Crons again. I'd love to see them come out of their dusty tombs again.

Oh you will. The more I've been thinking about this the more I miss playing them.

Droofus wrote:@All From the other side of the table I can testify that the Castle-lith tactic works very well.

From you, Mr. 'Ard Boyz Finalist, I'll take that as a compliment.

Droofus wrote:The monolith probably the one unit in the Necron dex that got a major boost from 5th ed. Not only in that vehicles can longer be destroyed on a glance, but also from the proliferation and over-reliance on melta to bust tanks (monoliths laugh at melta). Attacking two of those things with a C'Tan lurking nearby is a tall order. Killing all three would take some kind of act of god (or a manticore, a serious lascannon battery and a bit of luck).

That's true, and in instances such as these where there's a possibility of such a thing happening target priority is going to be a huge factor. When I play my Necrons I really try to neutralize threats to my Monoliths as soon as possible so that they can do their job as playing goalie along with the C'Tan for my warriors. In the situation you described, for example, I would really suggest shooting at the Manticore until it was going to be quiet for at least a turn and then focus on the lascannon teams. Of course, where there's a manticore there's probably Vendettas but I'm sure you see my point.

Droofus wrote:Even if you do manage to remove them, they'll probably have taken such a fearsome toll on your army that what forces you do have left will be either out of position or useless. Therefore the whole goal as an opponent is to force a phase out by knocking down destroyers in the early game and then finding a way to get to the warriors in the mid-late game. If you can kill this army down to 8 models (not including the monolith and nightbringer) then it goes away and you auto-win.

Of course against Monster Rain this means that I have to go through aforementioned monoliths and c'tan to get to those warriors. It is that added difficulty of killing the warriors, not the lethality of the destroyers, c'tan and monoliths, that really makes this strategy so dangerous.

Second only to their mobility, the toughness of the Necrons is something that you should lean on. There aren't many armies out there that you can leave a majority of your units standing out in the open to eat all kinds of high strength, low AP fire and not pay dearly for it. The Monolith and the C'Tan are ridiculously durable, and even Warriors don't worry so much about shooting between the prevalence of cover saves and WBB (which is augmented by the Monolith Portal, another reason to love this vehicle).

Droofus wrote:In essence this strategy attempts to take the most glaring weakness of Necrons in 5th - the fragility of warriors and the phase outs that result from losing them - and remove it from the equation. What you have left is an army full of useful special rules that can destroy an unprepared player and give even a veteran necron-fighter a really really hard time.

Wow, you summed that up really nicely. Wish I had thought of putting it like that.

Say what you will about the basilisk, but when your opponent castles up behind a lith wall, nothing beats ID'ing Ap 3 against Necrons.

The thing about castles is that generally, they keep troops closer together than they should be. Speaking from an IG perspective, clustered troops means dead troops, even if they get back up.

The keep warriors in reserve and then grab objectives ploy certainly has merit, but IG in the current metagame generally means that even hiding behind a lith won't save you.

Irdiumstern wrote:Say what you will about the basilisk, but when your opponent castles up behind a lith wall, nothing beats ID'ing Ap 3 against Necrons.

By my calculations the Monoliths can make a wall that's impassable by enemy models that's 18 inches across. That's 2 inches from each table edge, 6 inches for each monolith and 2 inches between them, being that you can't move within 1" of enemy models. I just set that up on the table and it leaves quite a bit of space for spreading out. Also, if you factor in the Resurrection Orb, you'll only be permanently killing about half of what the Basilisk knocks down, and less than that if they are recycled through the Monolith Portal.

All that said, yes, Basilisks hurt. The other consolation is that they scatter more when shooting indirect though. I'll take the trade-off, personally.

Very nice tactica!

That list is about as good as you can make Crons in this edition.

The funny thing about Crons is that in good hands they good pretty good between 2,000 and 2,500 points.

My tournament Missile Wolves BARELY beat a list like this at Ard Boyz Semis in a KP mission as I had literally more than double the KPs and 3 of his were Monoliths.

The issue that I have with crons is that against a smart player, they will focus on killing your infantry and phase you out. Ignore the liths (I only kill them in CC typically) and stay away from the Nightbringer if you can and you will generally be OK focusing on the Destroyers.

But, good on you if you are doing well with them. I love Crons and will certainly get as army of them when their new book comes out if they are decent (which judging by all other 5th books, they will be).

@Iridumstern
I love Bassies, still! I use one in almost every game. For its points it is a great tank.

Reecius wrote:The issue that I have with crons is that against a smart player, they will focus on killing your infantry and phase you out. Ignore the liths (I only kill them in CC typically) and stay away from the Nightbringer if you can and you will generally be OK focusing on the Destroyers.

Oh believe me, I know this first hand.

The idea here is to make ignoring the Monoliths and staying away from the C'tan rather difficult, as they are between you and what you want to get at (Warriors, when they come in from reserve).

Reecius wrote:But, good on you if you are doing well with them. I love Crons and will certainly get as army of them when their new book comes out if they are decent (which judging by all other 5th books, they will be).

Oh I'm sure they'll be cheesy as hell! I can't wait!

One thing that I'm really looking forward to is getting rid of some of the clunkier rules in the current codex so there can be less discussion about how they are played and more time spent actually playing!

I agree.

I would love to see Flayed ones as troops with rending and fleet.

Pariahs as Necrons.

Wraiths with power weapons.

All Necrons as stubborn 8 or 9.

A points reduction on a lot of the units.

And a number of other changes. Crons could be very good, they were great in 4th, the perfect beginner army. Hopefully they move back up to the top tier with the new book, which I bet they will!

Very nice tactica, similar to how I play.

Only problem I run into even using these tactics is the sheer variety of ways my enemy gets up to me.

As an example, when I play my brother ('nids) and try to castle, he just deep strikes right on me and ends up killing some troops. If I use a C'tan, he has instant kill stuff that wrecks me which make no sense since shouldn't star gods have Eternal Warrior?

Also he doesn't have a problem smashing monoliths with his str 10 cannon.

Seems that even with good tactica necrons can only go so far.

Destroyer wrote:Very nice tactica, similar to how I play.

Thanks man!

Destroyer wrote:As an example, when I play my brother ('nids) and try to castle, he just deep strikes right on me and ends up killing some troops.

Even through the Monolith Wall? How is he doing that? Can you give me more detail?

Destroyer wrote:If I use a C'tan, he has instant kill stuff that wrecks me which make no sense since shouldn't star gods have Eternal Warrior?

They do against Wraith Cannons. Who and What is ID'ing your C'Tan?

Destroyer wrote:Also he doesn't have a problem smashing monoliths with his str 10 cannon.

Yeah, long distance S10 is a bummer. Tau have the same edge, but then your Warriors can beat the bejeezus out of their troops in CC so that's a decent trade-off.

Destroyer wrote:Seems that even with good tactica necrons can only go so far.

To an extent, yeah I think that's true. They kind of suffer from the points cost of their units, really. They are facing off against units that are generally better at CC than them that don't cost nearly as much. I still contend that they're one of the most mobile armies out there though, so that mitigates their weaknesses somewhat in my opinion.

If a unit has a 12" charge they can go between the Liths as a part of their charge movement. Other than that, due to the 1" rule, it would be very difficult to get into assault with a castled cron force in the board corner.

That's a good call, actually. TWC and Raveners could be problematic even for the castle.

I guess in that instance you'd just park the Nightbringer in that space when they started getting close to their charge range, or tighten up the space and have a smaller area behind the Monolith wall.

Yeah, since most units can't charge far enough to engage a unit behind the Liths it isn't an issue, but beasts can cover the distance. Not that it comes up that often, but when it does it's good to know. If you make the gap between Liths too small for the unit's base to pass through, then you are fine.

It's also nice if you set it up with your warriors in area terrain. Having to roll can significantly shorten the charging distance, even for cavalry.

Monster Rain wrote: Even through the Monolith Wall? How is he doing that? Can you give me more detail?

Aside from the usual outflankers like genestealers there's this big one that deepstrikes in and kills stuff in the same turn, I think it's the tervigon or something. It can land on units like the monolith and pushes stuff around. It deals like str 6 and has a low AP so my warriors don't get a save or a WBB roll.

Monster Rain wrote:They do against Wraith Cannons. Who and What is ID'ing your C'Tan?

Bone swords and implant attack. Also some of his powers screws my Nightbringer up badly like the one that makes him have WS 1 BS 1 for the turn and attacking last.

Monster Rain wrote:To an extent, yeah I think that's true. They kind of suffer from the points cost of their units, really. They are facing off against units that are generally better at CC than them that don't cost nearly as much. I still contend that they're one of the most mobile armies out there though, so that mitigates their weaknesses somewhat in my opinion.

Well in 5th ed CC is the way to go. Also, every race has pretty much been give 10x more ways to get into CC so...
Whatever though, I love necrons too much to care about metagame.

Destroyer wrote:

Monster Rain wrote: Even through the Monolith Wall? How is he doing that? Can you give me more detail?

Aside from the usual outflankers like genestealers there's this big one that deepstrikes in and kills stuff in the same turn, I think it's the tervigon or something. It can land on units like the monolith and pushes stuff around. It deals like str 6 and has a low AP so my warriors don't get a save or a WBB roll.

AP doesn't affect WBB though.

You should be getting your roll.

Monster Rain wrote:AP doesn't affect WBB though.

You should be getting your roll.

Normally yes unless they don't get a save in CC which happens in this case.

Right, the template is AP3 so you'd get WBB from that.

In CC you're correct, you wouldn't get to self repair without a Res Orb.

Yeah people always think WBB works like FNP. Ap 1 and 2 don't bother the crons!

I don't know where that idea comes from.

It's a surprisingly strong list. Lost to it in one of our local league finals; last year, IIRC. Just beat it in the Ard Boyz finals this year, in part because my opponent decided to charge Abaddon with The Deceiver.

Yeah, I nearly lost to a similar list in Ard boyz semis, but my opponent played poorly, trying to engage me head on instead of taking out my easy KPs. My list was brutal, too. In good hands, the weakest army can be powerful.

Nice Tactica Monster Rain.

My next army will be Necron, once the new dex is done. It'll be interesting to see what they do with them.

nice tactic!!! Never faced something similar anyway...
My SM list would never be able to take down the monoliths (I rely on meltas :( )and getting to the warriors would be difficult...
My green tide orks maybe will be able... How this list go against an army with so many models that the monoliths wouldn't be able to kill enough? The nightbringer is a bad beast but you do not need to kill him....

punkow wrote:nice tactic!!! Never faced something similar anyway...
My SM list would never be able to take down the monoliths (I rely on meltas :( )and getting to the warriors would be difficult...
My green tide orks maybe will be able... How this list go against an army with so many models that the monoliths wouldn't be able to kill enough? The nightbringer is a bad beast but you do not need to kill him....

With 36 (+D6 when you're within 12" of the liths) gauss shots coming at you plus three blast weapons every turn I would think would weed out your mob pretty quickly. Not to mention another 10 - 20 from the warriors when/if you get close enough. That's a lot of gauss...

yeah... but for a 2000 points green tide....
36 shots (24 hit, 18-20 wounds, KFF so 12-13 losses) + 3 blasts (covering ... 5 orks each in the best scenario if the Ork player is wise and keep them not too much clustered so let's say 12 wounds so 8 losses)...
We reach 20-23 dead orks for turn... When I field green tide (using bases cause I haven't so many minis, but maybe someone else do) at 2000 points, I have 150 orks... 20 deads for turn isn't so much... and normally you need 3 turns to reach the enemy with the first wave...
I've never seen how the nightbringer, and in general, Necrons, and even more in general, armies relying on heavy vehicles do in this kind of situation... I'm interested
cos' this necron tactic looks very very nice and if I meet this with my green tide (i'm building it : D ) what's gonna happen???

I didn't say it would be a cake walk - that's for sure...how many lith killing models do you plan on fielding? Any battlewagons with deaf rollas, power klaws or zapp gunz?

punkow wrote:yeah... but for a 2000 points green tide....
36 shots (24 hit, 18-20 wounds, KFF so 12-13 losses) + 3 blasts (covering ... 5 orks each in the best scenario if the Ork player is wise and keep them not too much clustered so let's say 12 wounds so 8 losses)...
We reach 20-23 dead orks for turn... When I field green tide (using bases cause I haven't so many minis, but maybe someone else do) at 2000 points, I have 150 orks... 20 deads for turn isn't so much... and normally you need 3 turns to reach the enemy with the first wave...
I've never seen how the nightbringer, and in general, Necrons, and even more in general, armies relying on heavy vehicles do in this kind of situation... I'm interested
cos' this necron tactic looks very very nice and if I meet this with my green tide (i'm building it : D ) what's gonna happen???

Sure, you definitely have enough boyz to weather the casulaties until you get there. But keep in mind that the nightbringer can make sure that none of your charges within 6" of him even happen (since orks are strength three). So what's the point of getting there just to be denied a charge?

With orks, killing the nightbringer is absolutely vital. And let me tell you, he can soak a LOT of loota fire.

eheh... I'm a strange ork player... no Lootas nor deffrollas.... Boyz boyz some nobz boyz boyz boyz... just ignore everything too tough for 'em ... It's probably not a FTW tactic everytime... but I like this way... I use Deffkoptas and Killa kans (3-6 deff and 6 killa kans) with rokkits to handle with vehicles and MCs but against the liths they're pretty useless so i have to ignore them

The etheric tempest is terrific... didn't remember it.... ouch
Here's the solution against green tide.... Nevermind my doubts...

Orks ain't no puny 'umies! Even the smallest of Orks has at least Str 4!

No, they are S3 with Furious Charge. If you deny the charge, Boyz are really pretty wimpy.

Uhhm, no they don't. Actually, most got s3.

The only problem is that most mobs include atleast one s4 guy. (Hint: Nob)

EDIT: Of course, that doesn't matter much, as the unit have to be complete made up of s4+ guys. (Thought it was the other way around. )

I think a Kan Wall would be the Orks best bet versus Necrons.

Lots of S10 Dreadnought CC weapons to go around, cover for everything, good numbers of bodies, and sometimes even Deffrollas for cracking Monliths.

Whoops. Guess I was thinkin' toughness, not strength. My bad. (well, that and I haven't used regular boyz in cc yet. Just nobz and megaz.




Just curious, but I have heard that powerweapons are a 'cron's worst enemy, but why exactly is that?

Norade wrote:Lots of S10 Dreadnought CC weapons to go around, cover for everything, good numbers of bodies, and sometimes even Deffrollas for cracking Monliths.

Deffrollas are a problem, but if you focus fire on the Battle Wagons with your Destroyers you have a shot at wrecking or immobilizing them. Also, the Particle Whip isn't terrible at popping them being Ordnance and AP1. You really don't have to worry about the boyz when you are using the Nightbringer, due to the etheric tempest ability.

Anvildude wrote:Just curious, but I have heard that powerweapons are a 'cron's worst enemy, but why exactly is that?

It's because negating their armor in CC means they will lose combat, and if they fall back they are I2 so they'll most likely die to a sweeping advance.

This seams like a good tactic, how do you think itll do against a tau player? Mechanized tau to be exact ? I think i need to re read this though as it kind of confused me, whats the key to this strategy??

KRUDD wrote:This seams like a good tactic, how do you think itll do against a tau player? Mechanized tau to be exact ?

You actually don't need to castle against Tau, as they aren't a CC threat. An Advancing Phalanx with an eye on the objectives should be fine. The other thing about Mech Tau is that when they come close with those Devilfish, they're still full of Fire Warriors at the end of the day. Their shooting isn't going to bother the Necrons much on average.

EDIT: Okay, Kroot are a problem for Necrons in CC, but if they are present just put the Monoliths between them and your warriors and make sure they can't come in from the outflank.

KRUDD wrote:I think i need to re read this though as it kind of confused me, whats the key to this strategy??

The key to this strategy is relying on your army's toughness (Monoliths) and counter-assault capability of the C'Tan in the early game, and mobility(Monolith Portals, Veil of Darkness) in the latter turns. Since a smart player will be attempting to avoid your tough units to get to your soft units (Warriors) to phase you out, you make sure that your tough units are between them and their objective at all times.

I think that while you can win with this list, you face a few issues in the competitive arena. First, your destroyers can be fairly easy to kill. Sure you can move and what not, but with a range of 36, if you face a determined shooting opponent like the kind that are all over tourneys, then they have enough shooting from small units to exceed your ability to glance them back.

IG are of course the biggest threat, with their s10 ordance manticores that can each put up to 3 pens a turn on a monolith. Vendettas trade quite nicely versus destroyers, and chimera's s6 shots can not be ignored. Also, the PBS can cause your units to flee off the table quite easily, something that can not be understated. And in combat, if the enemy has straken unless you get the nightbringer over in a hurry straken can and will eat a warrior squad.

Then if you look at space wolves, any of the power builds trade destroyer shots for krak missiles in a losing equasion for the destroyers. Lots of razorbacks overwelm the destroyers ability to glance them all, and as stated TWC can demolish monoliths with s10 and hitting on 4+. Is Nightbringer s10? I forget... In any event, the SW builds have the advantage in sheer firepower and CC ability, and are more mobile, giving the advantage to them.

Regular SM have Null Zone, which can and will make the Nightbringer cry... and with the night bringer gone the SM can press a CC advantage as even a PF tac squad can beat necron face.

DE have a harder time, as they must leverage the ability to drop your destroyers before the destroyers kill their mobility. That said, it wont take too many venoms with 12 poisoned shots to bring down 4 destroyers, and if the DE took warriors then massed splinter fire may drop all 12 in one go, leaving you with no WBB quite quickly. In CC, the night bringer will push away almost any unit, but in return the night bringer wont want to tangle with any of the poision units either.

Not trying to rain on your parade, its just while your advice is good, I feel it didnt give enough credit to how much better the new armies are... your advice seems best for beginning players against other beginning players. Against advanced players, then much of your stratedgy could be modified.

DevianID wrote:I think that while you can win with this list, you face a few issues in the competitive arena. First, your destroyers can be fairly easy to kill.

12 of them, with cover saves and re-rollable WBB are actually pretty hard to remove at range.

DevianID wrote:IG are of course the biggest threat, with their s10 ordance manticores that can each put up to 3 pens a turn on a monolith.

This was somewhat addressed earlier in the thread, but yes, long range S10 is an issue. Just as it is for any army relying on large vehicles. If you're going to go second against someone with more than one Manticore, reserving your Monoliths and Deep Striking them is probably the answer. Also, since IG aren't usually a big CC threat, you don't necessarily need to castle against them.

DevianID wrote:...if the enemy has straken unless you get the nightbringer over in a hurry straken can and will eat a warrior squad.

Again, if the Nightbringer is alive and you're keeping a tight Phalanx or castle, the majority S <4 unit won't be assaulting anything.

DevianID wrote:Is Nightbringer s10? I forget...

He is.

DevianID wrote:In any event, the SW builds have the advantage in sheer firepower and CC ability, and are more mobile, giving the advantage to them.

They don't generally bring the equipment needed to reliably down Monoliths in this melta/missile launcher dominated meta game, and also don't shoot hard enough at range to keep 3 squads of 4 Destroyers permanently dead. You're understating re-rollable WBB quite a bit.

DevianID wrote:Regular SM have Null Zone, which can and will make the Nightbringer cry...

If you can see him. I've found that a Monolith keeps the Nightbringer out of TLOS quite nicely. And if you as a Space Marine player want to assault him with something other than Death Company, please feel free.

DevianID wrote: In CC, the night bringer will push away almost any unit, but in return the night bringer wont want to tangle with any of the poision units either.

Right, and then you shoot the units that he pushes away.

DevianID wrote: Not trying to rain on your parade, its just while your advice is good, I feel it didnt give enough credit to how much better the new armies are...

I think that if you follow the discussion you'd see that Space Wolves have featured prominently. It won't be easy, but it is possible to win. The over reliance on melta for anti-tank makes the Monolith wall pretty tough.

DevianID wrote:your advice seems best for beginning players against other beginning players.

Droofus, Mannahnin and Reecius are extremely advanced players and have posted in this thread. Just throwing that out there.

DevianID wrote:Against advanced players, then much of your stratedgy could be modified.

How so?

Well as to cover saves on the destroyers, that is not a definate thing. While you can park them in dangerous terrain and perhaps only lose 1, if the enemy is mobile they can bypass some obscuring terrain. Also, you dont need to kill 12. If you have them all close enough to WBB off each other, then its possible that you can kill 8 for example, leaving 1 squad potentially out of range, and causing all the destroyers to have to form 1 big unit. This kills your shooting flexibility, even if you dont lose a single destroyer after WBB, as having 12 destroyers in 1 unit is less than optimal.

As for the tight castle... how tight are you talking? Are you talking about keeping every single unit within 6 inches of the night bringer? If so, then you are kind of clumped a bit for those manticores, and perhaps will lose more to clumping than you save with your tempest.

As for SW, its true I have seen the wolves with only melta and missiles in some builds. But not always... and the s10 CC is one of those things that quite a few SW capitalize on.

For regular SM, really the only CC unit is termies--preferably shooty since the SS wont help to much. A big unit of termies can send the nightbringer packing, but often people only have 5 THSS termies which the nightbringer, with a decent CC phase, can take out. I think the bigger threat is just from a general push around your flanks. The nightbringer can only shore up 1 flank, so with a board hugging set up you can be mostly safe, but such a setup gives very limited destroyer opportunities, as leaving the corner exposes them to the entire enemy army.

As for what strats could change, I might recommend more monoliths and less destroyers. Perhaps instead of veil try solar pulse and other various necron tricks like gaze of flame. Scarabs with their 2+ cover when turboboosting are also not to shabby at blocking advances. The deciever versus the nightbringer is a tough call that factors down to metagame decisions, but I feel deserves a bigger mention.

Also, what tactic would you use in the many 5 objective events that many tournies bring?

Well OP seams like you are experienced with necrons, since i wont need to try and get into CC with Tau as he is not going to try, and does not run kroot, what do you think is a good way to play them? ANy advise you can provide will be great dude

DevianID wrote:This kills your shooting flexibility, even if you dont lose a single destroyer after WBB, as having 12 destroyers in 1 unit is less than optimal.

It's pretty devastating against the one thing that you shoot them at, though.

DevianID wrote:As for the tight castle... how tight are you talking?

If necessary, you can make an 18-inch wide Monolith wall to hide behind in a corner. This has been talked about already.

DevianID wrote: Are you talking about keeping every single unit within 6 inches of the night bringer?

Just your Warriors. As a Necron player, keeping things within 6" of something else doesn't seem all that outlandish.

DevianID wrote:If so, then you are kind of clumped a bit for those manticores, and perhaps will lose more to clumping than you save with your tempest.

No, not at all. Warriors get their Armor Save and WBB (if the Orb is present, which it should be) from the AP4 Manticore blasts, and they get neither from a sweeping advance.

DevianID wrote:As for SW, its true I have seen the wolves with only melta and missiles in some builds. But not always... and the s10 CC is one of those things that quite a few SW capitalize on.

Right, and as pointed out earlier, if they are assaulting your Monolith they should be getting charged by a C'Tan on the next turn.

DevianID wrote:For regular SM, really the only CC unit is termies--preferably shooty since the SS wont help to much.

Right, shooting is generally the preferable method of downing the Nightbringer. Unless you have something that can kill him before he can swing like the Skull Taker or something like that. I don't see many tactical terminators at competitive tournaments though.

DevianID wrote:A big unit of termies can send the nightbringer packing, but often people only have 5 THSS termies which the nightbringer, with a decent CC phase, can take out. I think the bigger threat is just from a general push around your flanks. The nightbringer can only shore up 1 flank, so with a board hugging set up you can be mostly safe, but such a setup gives very limited destroyer opportunities, as leaving the corner exposes them to the entire enemy army.

The Destroyers can plug a hole as well, and I see no problem with making a couple of speed bumps with them. You are also understating the power of what the opponent is flanking around, S9 AP 3(1) large blast shooting Monoliths.

DevianID wrote:As for what strats could change, I might recommend more monoliths and less destroyers.

I completely disagree. When you already have two, and are playing below 2500 points, 2 is plenty. Destroyers wreck Rhinos and Razorbacks pretty well, and you want to be doing that at range and they are the only thing in the Codex worth talking about that shoots over 24 inches.

DevianID wrote: Perhaps instead of veil try solar pulse and other various necron tricks like gaze of flame.

What is the Solar Pulse going to add to this list? And CC upgrades for Necrons are something I'd strongly advise against. Dedicated CC units(hell, even mediocre CC units) are going to whipsmack your Necron units and send them running. Period. Better to stay out of CC altogether when possible. Other than the C'Tan and the exceptions I've already outlined above.

DevianID wrote: Scarabs with their 2+ cover when turboboosting are also not to shabby at blocking advances.

True, and I like Scarabs a lot. Particularly with Disruption Fields. I don't think they are better than Destroyers, however. This problem comes from the Necrons having a triple-stacked FA section.

DevianID wrote:The deciever versus the nightbringer is a tough call that factors down to metagame decisions, but I feel deserves a bigger mention.

I gave my reasons and some pros and cons for both. What more do you suggest?

DevianID wrote:Also, what tactic would you use in the many 5 objective events that many tournies bring?

In scenarios like this, when I win, its usually by one or two objectives and involves Warriors screened by Monoliths holding one objective and a Squad with a Veil Lord grabbing an unsecured objective late in the game. Also, don't forget that 10 Warriors can cover a lot of ground when spaced out their full 2" and can hold more than one objective if need be.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

KRUDD wrote:Well OP seams like you are experienced with necrons, since i wont need to try and get into CC with Tau as he is not going to try, and does not run kroot, what do you think is a good way to play them? ANy advise you can provide will be great dude

What kind of list do you think you'll be playing with and against?

In general, against Tau, I like to Deep Strike my Monoliths and try to keep the Hammerheads shaken(or worse) until I can start marching warriors into their lines. If they are mechanized, again, keep their S10 quiet with gauss glances and don't give them room to run. Broadsides are a serious problem for Monoliths, but I find that Scarabs tie them up in CC quite nicely!

That's just some general advice. If you can give me more specifics I would gladly reciprocate.

My list is open as im still building the army. If this trade works out ill have 40 warriors, and 4 destroyers. I am trying to get 12 destroyers, 2 lords, and 2 monoliths. Maybe a squad of immortals. I was thinking about using the lord to veil infront of the tau, shoot / assualt them. Deep striking 'liths in close, push out warrior squads, rapid fire under 12 inches, and then charge the tau to tie them up in CC too, mean while bringing destroyers up the side to try to take out some crisis suits or any rail guns around?? Basiclly a in your face shoot and charge, obviously i would need to watch out for PO, whatcha think??

his list will be devil fish with troops in them, rail guns, ion cannons, and crisis suits.

Dunno quiet what game type, but for the sake of discussion lets just say its one on one eliminate the other person completetly

You can't charge after rapid firing, but I see where you're going with this. Monoliths completely wreck crisis suits, and Immortals and Destroyers work really well in all lists but they're even better against Tau as their guns are AP4.

This is pretty close to the strategy that I would use when playing Tau, so I say go for it! Destroyers can be used to tie up shooty units that are bothering you in a pinch as well.

Monster you got some good answers to those challenges compared to most that just end up saying "yeah crons suck in this ed lolol", props on that. =)

Another quick question, how do you make your list in lower point games? I ended up playing some lower point games recently and keep getting smashed because I can't decide what to take. By the way I'm talking about 1000 and 1.5k games but mostly 1000 point games.

The way I see it after an HQ and the 2 troops, I have bare minimal space to work and can never decide what to take. What do you recommend to do in those cases? By the way I play mostly against a 'nid player that has triple trygons.

Destroyer wrote:Monster you got some good answers to those challenges compared to most that just end up saying "yeah crons suck in this ed lolol", props on that. =)

Thanks man. I've played Necrons for a while, against all manner of armies. They aren't a "win button" by any stretch of the imagination, but they can hold their own if you play to their strengths which is what I've tried to condense into this tactica.

Destroyer wrote:Another quick question, how do you make your list in lower point games? I ended up playing some lower point games recently and keep getting smashed because I can't decide what to take. By the way I'm talking about 1000 and 1.5k games but mostly 1000 point games.

Necrons at lower points tend to be pretty sorry, to be honest. If I were going to play them at 1000 points though, I would probably do a little something like this:

Lord with Res Orb, Veil of Darkness (There will probably be some open objectives at this low of a point value. Snag an isolated one on turn 5. And keep a squad or warriors alive so you don't Phase Out.

10 Warriors
10 Warriors (Keep these in reserve, most of the time. Remember to place objectives within easy reach of your table edge.)

3 Destroyers (Keep cover between these and your opponent's ap3 guns and keep the units near each other for WBB redundancy. Unless you're looking at a lot of S10 they won't need an orb nearby.)
3 Destroyers
3 Wraiths (At lower point values I really like this unit. It kills tanks and ties up Monstrous Creatures pretty nicely.)

Destroyer wrote:The way I see it after an HQ and the 2 troops, I have bare minimal space to work and can never decide what to take. What do you recommend to do in those cases? By the way I play mostly against a 'nid player that has triple trygons.

O_o

Triple Trygons at 1000 points? What else does he have in there?

You'll need a C'Tan, I think. I'd bust this out on him.

Deceiver (He'll beat down a trygon, and his pinning power works on fearless units. Tyranids have average LD so you've got a shot. When a trygon shows up, try to pin it. If you do, shoot it with everything you have. Torrents of fire will get through that 3+ save eventually. If you don't pin it, charge it with the deceiver and run everything away from it as quickly as possible!)

11 Warriors
11 Warriors (Keep them safe! You'll need them on the board to try to gun down the pinned Monsters, but if it doesn't get pinned, run!)

3 Destroyers
3 Destroyers(Use the Grand Illusion to put these guys exactly where you want them to be, pick your targets wisely and keep them between the CC units and your Warriors when they start getting close.)

The key to this is not letting your C'tan get distracted. He's there to pin units and eat monsters when they get close. Remember that he can use Misdirect to get out of CC so you'll want to do that at the end of your opponent's turn if he's in assault at that point. I'm not going to lie to you, this is a tough one for Necrons.

Rain there is a team tourny coming uop soon, 1k points a person so 2k points per team, ill be playing with my brother (who is the tau player i keep referencing). Think i should run with 1k of necrons, or 1k of nids?

Also, whats the advantage of your castle monolith tactic how exactly does it work?

Well, I kind of outlined the tactics In the first post.

What questions do you have specifically?

Ah ok thanks for the advice.

I usually have to choose between a c'tan or a monolith and always saw the monolith more viable due to being able to pull out of CC if necessary, the extra WBB, and the pie plates to eat up his troops but I guess a c'tan would be better.

He also fields a prime and some gants to hold objectives but that's about it.

Normally I'd say go with the Monolith, since it has a lot more utility as you correctly pointed out.

If your local metagame indicates that you'll be facing three trygons with any regularity I'd say the C'Tan is a no-brainer choice!

Haha alright thanks. C'tan it is.

Wait, Deceiver or Nightbringer against trygons?

Well, you'll have to rearrange some points so you'd only get one unit of 4 Destroyers if you take the Nightbringer. Then again, he'll probably gorilla-napalm-stomp a trygon per turn.

Up to you, really. The list you're facing doesn't seem to have a lot of shooting and 4 Destroyers will house some gants as well. I always prefer the Nightbringer!

I think you're underestimating a well played Kan Wall given that you'll have issues with target priority and actually dealing damage.

A typical Kanwall list might be like this:

HQ:
Mek - KFF: 85pts.
Mek - KFF: 85pts.

Elites:
Nobz x7 - 4x PK, 2x Big Choppa, 1x Heavy Armor, 1x Bosspole, 1x Ammo Runt, 1x Shoota Rokkit, Cybork x7, Painboy: 468pts.
--Battle Wagon - Deff Rolla, 1x Big Shoota, 1x Rokkits
Nobz x7 - 4x PK, 2x Big Choppa, 1x Heavy Armor, 1x Bosspole, 1x Ammo Runt, 1x Shoota Rokkit, Cybork x7, Painboy: 468pts.
--Battle Wagon - Deff Rolla, 1x Big Shoota, 1x Rokkits
Kommandos x4, Snikrot - 2x Burnas: 165pts.

Troops:
Deff Dread - 3x DCCW, Skorcha, Rigger, Armor: 100pts.
Deff Dread - 3x DCCW, Skorcha, Rigger, Armor: 100pts.
Grots x10, Runtherder: 40pts.
Grots x10, Runtherder: 40pts.

Heavy Support:
Killa Kans x3 - Rokkit Launchas - 150pts.
Killa Kans x3 - Rokkit Launchas - 150pts.
Killa Kans x3 - Rokkit Launchas - 150pts.

So now, what do you try to glance to death? You average a glance and a pen per shooting phase against Kans with a unit of Destroyers, you average less than a result per unit versus the Dreads, and the Wagons are equally hard to touch.

Advancing at a walk my army is taking a wound a turn from the C'Tan with Rokkits, your destroyers need to be wary of board edges lest the Kommandos eat them.Then up close you need to worry about the Nobs who can, off an average charge knock 2 wounds off a C'Tan.

Your idea is a good one, but with how weak Crons are most lists have some built in easy answers to the Necron question.

I'd focus fire on the Battle Wagons in that situation, and pray like hell for a break. It would be tough, for sure, but the Monoliths would have a chance at wrecking the wagons and particle whips shred Nobs.

The kans wouldn't last long against the Nightbringer, so I'd obviously be leaning on him pretty hard against that list.

A lot of the theoryhammer responses to Necrons fail to account for the LOS-blocking qualities of multiple Monoliths. You can literally hide the C'Tan and entire units of Destroyers behind them in the early game, and protect your Warriors with them late. Ork Rokkits aren't doing anything to a Monolith, and the C'Tan only comes out to play once the Kans are in charge range. It's one of those lists that doesn't sound so bad when you hear about it; and then you play against it and it feels like you're swinging your perfectly-honed sword (tournament army) against a frickin' steel wall.

SW, SM, and BA shooty armies run afoul of the same issue. The 'liths can be a moving wall, pivoting to protect the Destroyers & C'Tan from most of the enemy fire while allowing the Destroyers to peek around the side and rip up 2-3 enemy vehicles per turn. Meanwhile the Missiles & Meltas are bouncing harmlessly off the 'liths.

IG is more dangerous, as they bring more lascannons, and can get them TL on Vendettas and infantry squads under orders. But against IG you can play more aggressive, since you're not worried about losing HTH. The only thing really scary in HtH is Straken; and while IMO he's amazing and wonderful, he still squishes like a kitten against a C'Tan.

It's not a world-dominating army, by any means, but it is surprisingly tough, and presents some bad matchup issues for the presently more popular guns (missiles & melta) and units (assault terminators, thunderwolves both die like chumps to C'Tan). Certain other armies, unusual ones which bring multiple long-ranged S10 (like Tau) find it much easier to fight. It can be a bit luck-dependent. Most armies don't bring a lot of lascannons nowadays. If the few they have get lucky immobilizing or destroying 'liths early, the list tends to lose. But they have to roll lucky to do so.

The Ork list isn't really theory hammer as I've seen it used to great effect before. If the C'Tan is moved to fight Kans then the Dreads try to Wreck the Liths, if that fails then Klaws come out and aim for a kill or some of the Kans get pulled off to do it.

If I can't see the C'Tan to shoot it then my Rokkits get to start whittling down Destroyers as even one or two dead or forcing them into larger squads works.

I'm not trying to say it's an easy win, but it's one of many lists that have all of the tools to defeat this one trick Necron list and still compete versus other lists.

I'm pretty sure that inventing scenarios and tactics in a vacuum is the definition of theoryhammer.

I've played against similar lists and have won. Nor every time, obviously, as a lot of this depends on cover saves and damage table rolls.

Norade wrote:The Ork list isn't really theory hammer as I've seen it used to great effect before. If the C'Tan is moved to fight Kans then the Dreads try to Wreck the Liths, if that fails then Klaws come out and aim for a kill or some of the Kans get pulled off to do it.

If I can't see the C'Tan to shoot it then my Rokkits get to start whittling down Destroyers as even one or two dead or forcing them into larger squads works.

I'm not trying to say it's an easy win, but it's one of many lists that have all of the tools to defeat this one trick Necron list and still compete versus other lists.

I'm not saying I entirely disagree, but I'll take exception to the "many" part. Also, try running the math on how many Rokkits you need to be shooting at Destroyers with cover saves to do anything. They're almost worthless.

That Ork list you posted is certainly an all-comers list which is capable of taking on min-maxed 'crons, though it'd have to be decided on the table. The combination of AV14 and Skimmer Dodge makes the Monliths more resistant to deffrollas than any other vehicle. The rollas, and nob squads with 4 powerklaws on top of the Dreads and squads of Kans makes for a LOT more S9 and S10 attacks coming out of this list than the vast majority of tournament lists.

Mannahnin wrote:

Norade wrote:The Ork list isn't really theory hammer as I've seen it used to great effect before. If the C'Tan is moved to fight Kans then the Dreads try to Wreck the Liths, if that fails then Klaws come out and aim for a kill or some of the Kans get pulled off to do it.

If I can't see the C'Tan to shoot it then my Rokkits get to start whittling down Destroyers as even one or two dead or forcing them into larger squads works.

I'm not trying to say it's an easy win, but it's one of many lists that have all of the tools to defeat this one trick Necron list and still compete versus other lists.

I'm not saying I entirely disagree, but I'll take exception to the "many" part. Also, try running the math on how many Rokkits you need to be shooting at Destroyers with cover saves to do anything. They're almost worthless.

That Ork list you posted is certainly an all-comers list which is capable of taking on min-maxed 'crons, though it'd have to be decided on the table. The combination of AV14 and Skimmer Dodge makes the Monliths more resistant to deffrollas than any other vehicle. The rollas, and nob squads with 4 powerklaws on top of the Dreads and squads of Kans makes for a LOT more S9 and S10 attacks coming out of this list than the vast majority of tournament lists.

Definitely a leave it all on the table type of game, which is better than most Necron lists can do.

As I said earlier in the thread, this kind of build beat me for a league title not long ago, and held its own against me at the 2010 Ard Boyz final too. I beat him (in part because he got cocky with the Deceiver against Abaddon), but I couldn't get full points/the phase out because he pulled the exact same trick of reserving the warriors and bringing them on in a corner behind a wall of monoliths.

This kind of list would have been seen as broken and unfair in 3rd or 4th edition; now it's the main way Necrons can compete at all, but it's pretty darn good.

Yeah, makes you wonder how the Necrons will be changed in 5e when they get a new Codex. They have a lot of good right now and seem a few tweaks away from having at least one top tier build.

Norade wrote:Definitely a leave it all on the table type of game, which is better than most Necron lists can do.

It would be brutal for the Necrons, no question about it. Honestly, for me at least, I'd use the term "Nightmare Scenario".

If any Necron build could do it though, I think its this one.

Norade wrote:Yeah, makes you wonder how the Necrons will be changed in 5e when they get a new Codex. They have a lot of good right now and seem a few tweaks away from having at least one top tier build.

I completely agree. I think its become a bit of a tautology that Necrons are terrible, and since I had a bit of spare time in between quarters I thought I'd do my small part to try and challenge that.

Good tactica but I was wondering what would you do at 1.5k points?

Probably Deceiver, 2 monoliths, 2x10 warriors, 2x3 Destroyers, and five Scarabs. Alternately, you could take a Rez Orb/Veil lord and add more Destroyers or a squad of Immortals.

For 1500 Points I would do something more like this:

Deceiver
Lord with Veil of Darkness and Resurrection Orb

10 Warriors
10 Warriors

1 Monolith

4 Destroyers
4 Destroyers

_________________

Obviously you can't wall yourself off as well here so you'll want to use the Deceiver's Grand Illusion to make sure that you rearrange your deployment to best counteract your opponent's, whether its setting your destroyers up to get unobstructed shots to try and immobilize problem vehicles like Land Raiders and Battlewagons. The basic strategy would be the same though; keep an eye on the mission objectives and stay mobile.

Target priority becomes even more of an issue here. Figure out what the greatest threat on the other side of the table is and focus Destroyer and Particle Whip fire on it until it either goes away or slows down.

What is your opinion on a 'Tomb Guard' army. I was thinking of a build w/ Destroyer Lord, VoD+Res Orb Lord, Flayed Ones, Minimal Warriors, Scarabs, 2x Tomb Stalkers, 3x Tomb Spyders.

Going more with fluff but what I think is a decent build. Tomb Stalkers are large and can protect Warriors, the Lord is to move like you said. Scarabs and Destroyer Lord are fast and a pain, Flayed Ones a DSing distraction and Tomb Spyders help the 6" WBB problem.

Tomb Stalkers are ridiculously awesome. I pray nightly that they're in the new Codex.

If your local scene doesn't have a problem with using FW rules(experimental rules, I should add) I'd say go for it! I think you'd get more mileage out of Wraiths than Flayed ones though.

The only thing I'd say is that Tomb Spyders really aren't all that they are cracked up to be. As far as Necron Heavy Support goes the Monolith is the only thing in there worth taking in my opinion.

I think paying 165pts for 3 Monstrous creatures (albeit 2 wounds) with helpful special rules is worth it. I will playtest.

Thanks for the help!!

I know it looks that way, but I always seemed to have mine getting stomped out by Space Marines with Powerfists. YMMV.

Let me know how it goes, would you?

I've seen Tomb Spiders do really nasty things as long as they keep the number of scarab swarms in the unit equal or less than the number of spiders. Majority toughness and wound abuse FTW! Even a single spider spawning a single base can be nasty; hard to shoot down, and it can spawn as a way of gaining assault distance in a given direction.

40kEnthusiast had at least one batrep with close-combat-crons using a ton of them, a C'Tan, and a pile of scarabs.

Gracias thats on along the lines of what I was thinking.

Mannahnin: I've heard people say that they like the army and read some battle reports about it but I still think that trying to go toe-to-toe with an actual Assault Army is going to be a losing proposition in most cases.

That said, I chose to put the word "humble" in the thread title for a reason. I'm just putting into writing what works for me using this army based on several years of playing them. People can take all of my advice, some of it, or do the exact opposite and I wish them all the best.

This is really strong advice and from my experience this is currently the "strongest" take all comers build for necrons.

Hopefully in next edition we will see troops become more used somehow. For necrons, and an extent nids, I was always sad to see people take 2 min sized troop squads, but its kinda what you must do to be competitive.

I have always had decent mileage from tomb spyders with dual claws. They aren't an assault unit by any means but they do good tieing up units when it comes down to having to teleport out more than 2 units a turn from monolith portals, or when you would rather particle whip then teleport. Usually you have a scarab swarm or two by the time you need to prememptively charge something, The idea is to charge a unit thats going to charge you next round and create a situation where other assault units near it have to either spend extra time going around the assault or pile in.

I agree that this is probably the strongest competition list available to Necrons at the moment. Definitely something I wouldn't want to play my friends with (especially if I'm relying on them for a ride home!) Monoliths are unbelievably formidable (and, not to mention, probably one of the coolest single models in 40k).

To be honest, I always cringe when I see casual gamers playing small games loaded down with Monoliths and C'Tan. It's no fun for a beginner Ultramarines player to watch his army getting vaporized by S10 pie plates being launched from two or three stationary Monoliths while shooting ineffectively back. It's tough to get excited about building and painting an army if it's not fun to play the game.

I'm much more of a "Fun" gamer. I've always enjoyed using Monolith-less Necron lists. Even in 5th edition, the basic Necron warrior is a solid fighter (though the ability to destroy almost any vehicle in the game in previous editions made them unparalleled). Wraiths and Destroyers are two very strong and versatile Fast Attack units. Heavy Destroyers are nothing to shake a stick at. That said, the tactical advantage of a Monolith really comes into its own at around 1750-2000 points when the power of the big gun becomes necessary against most other armies.

Anyways, ramble over. Thank you very much for posting your tactica article. As others have noted, it is nice to see some loving for an army that only a few players truly love!

I was wondering if there was a possibility for some substitutions in the list and if there were any recommendations for using them (this is for my son's list so getting new figures takes a bit).

We have...

Nightbringer
Lord w/ orb
2 monoliths
20 warriors
4 destroyers

this is where we depart from the list... we also have...

20 more warriors (I know, useless)
3 wraiths
2 tomb spiders & some scarabs
6 pariahs

Can anyone recommend an intelligent way to sub in some of the lower list to make up for what we don't have in the upper list? Perhaps with ways to use them? Say build to the 1850 or 2000 pt levels (or pick one... whatever works for the purposes of illustration).

Thanks!

I have sold my necrons, however when I was playing them I went all shooty. This is 4th ed.

Lord w/orb/veil

2x10 warriors

3x10 immortals

3x4 destroyers

Don't know how well they would do in 5th. I imagine quite poorly.

I don't see how this list can survive the mass shooting that exists now in 5th, but I will give it a more thorough go through tonight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

G. Whitenbeard wrote:I agree that this is probably the strongest competition list available to Necrons at the moment. Definitely something I wouldn't want to play my friends with (especially if I'm relying on them for a ride home!) Monoliths are unbelievably formidable (and, not to mention, probably one of the coolest single models in 40k).

To be honest, I always cringe when I see casual gamers playing small games loaded down with Monoliths and C'Tan. It's no fun for a beginner Ultramarines player to watch his army getting vaporized by S10 pie plates being launched from two or three stationary Monoliths while shooting ineffectively back. It's tough to get excited about building and painting an army if it's not fun to play the game.

I'm much more of a "Fun" gamer. I've always enjoyed using Monolith-less Necron lists. Even in 5th edition, the basic Necron warrior is a solid fighter (though the ability to destroy almost any vehicle in the game in previous editions made them unparalleled). Wraiths and Destroyers are two very strong and versatile Fast Attack units. Heavy Destroyers are nothing to shake a stick at. That said, the tactical advantage of a Monolith really comes into its own at around 1750-2000 points when the power of the big gun becomes necessary against most other armies.

Anyways, ramble over. Thank you very much for posting your tactica article. As others have noted, it is nice to see some loving for an army that only a few players truly love!

Those are str9 pie plates.

Also, I would think Logan lists with lc lf's would make short work of monos. imho.

Gitsplitta wrote:I was wondering if there was a possibility for some substitutions in the list and if there were any recommendations for using them (this is for my son's list so getting new figures takes a bit).

We have...

Nightbringer
Lord w/ orb
2 monoliths
20 warriors
4 destroyers

this is where we depart from the list... we also have...

20 more warriors (I know, useless)
3 wraiths
2 tomb spiders & some scarabs
6 pariahs

Can anyone recommend an intelligent way to sub in some of the lower list to make up for what we don't have in the upper list? Perhaps with ways to use them? Say build to the 1850 or 2000 pt levels (or pick one... whatever works for the purposes of illustration).

Thanks!

Personally, for a 2000 pt list, I'd use the following of your models:

1 Nightbringer
1 Lord, veil, orb
2 monolith
11 warriors
10 warriors
4 Destroyers
3 wraiths
6 pariahs
4 scarab swarms

Could use your swarms as a meat shield (so to speak) to get the pariahs into CC, where they'll do well with their warscythes.

It's all theory till you battle with it though

Excellent, thanks JudgeXa... we'll give that a try!

When deploying my Necrons, I will generally keep my Warriors Squads in Reserve.

Hey any tips against the new DA/BT lists circulating? What are good counters to terminators?

Also, how do I handle Mephiston? I recently played against him and got tabled hard.

C'tan - no use
Didn't bring H.destroyers and even massed fire barely dent him as his 2+ stops almost everything and his T6 laughs at all but destroyer fire.

Pariahs hiding behind a Monolith are wonderfully annoying to powerful, beatstick psykers. When he gets within 12 of them he has to test at a 7 or run away, and then if you keep your stuff inside of that bubble he'll only be making half of his psychic tests.

It'll take a little practice to get it right, but its nice once you figure it out.

Monster Rain wrote:Pariahs hiding behind a Monolith are wonderfully annoying to powerful, beatstick psykers. When he gets within 12 of them he has to test at a 7 or run away, and then if you keep your stuff inside of that bubble he'll only be making half of his psychic tests.

It'll take a little practice to get it right, but its nice once you figure it out.

monolith its a "fly vehicle" so anything can be blank out by them. so your pariah can normally be destroyed by enemy's fire...

you can keep your warriors in reserve -if- they are more than the two basic unit
and remember they must use the monolith's portal to "materialize"...

from the necrons codex.

i didn't read the last FAQ?

Gitsplitta wrote:I was wondering if there was a possibility for some substitutions in the list and if there were any recommendations for using them (this is for my son's list so getting new figures takes a bit).

We have...

Nightbringer
Lord w/ orb
2 monoliths
20 warriors
4 destroyers

this is where we depart from the list... we also have...

20 more warriors (I know, useless)
3 wraiths
2 tomb spiders & some scarabs
6 pariahs

Can anyone recommend an intelligent way to sub in some of the lower list to make up for what we don't have in the upper list? Perhaps with ways to use them? Say build to the 1850 or 2000 pt levels (or pick one... whatever works for the purposes of illustration).

Thanks!

Ugh. You don't have enough of anything to really be worth it. Wraiths & Scarabs are only good in mass numbers, a full unit of 10 for Scarabs or (I think) two full units of 3 (6 total) for Wraiths. They have this terrible tendency to just not kill anything otherwise. But just about anything is better than more Warriors, so I'd suggest fielding it all.

Monster Rain wrote:Pariahs hiding behind a Monolith are wonderfully annoying to powerful, beatstick psykers. When he gets within 12 of them he has to test at a 7 or run away, and then if you keep your stuff inside of that bubble he'll only be making half of his psychic tests.

It'll take a little practice to get it right, but its nice once you figure it out.

I thought he was fearless? Him testing on a 7 won't stop him from munching most Necron units, but it will make him vulnerable to the C'tan and maybe a Pariah charge. This is also your only worthwhile response unless your opponent somehow forgets to use the S10 power.

As for the Monolith and LOS, I believe the flying base stick that ships with the model is maybe an inch tall. More than low enough to block anything.

Got beat up today by an eldar mech list - apologies for not knowing the names well...part of the prob was "dawn of War" and leaving all my lists sbd FAQ at home! Anyway, he had 6 skimmers, Avatar, HQ character with 3+ ward save rerolls, two units of 5 guys with meltas (firewarriors?), 5 howling banshees, couple of troops in the skimmers.

I took a monolith (first time!!!), 32 warriors in 3 units, 10 flayed ones, 3 wraiths, 3 Destroyers, ten scarabs, a spyder, 1 lord orb and veil, 1 lord melée kit of GoF, LF, PSh, NShr, both warscythe. The lords were 400, the warriors 575, the Elite and FA 575, -/+.

Turn 2 he unloaded melta units and destroyed the lith. They mustve dropped 20 dice on the sad thing, abd he had tank hunters. Exploded and gone. There were only three objectives and he placed two. The most central one I contested and I got a sad, pathetic, barely a draw. The destroyers did Jack s--t to his skimmers, and they wasted the destroyers and shot apart most of my army. My warriors put about 60 shots into his hq to kill the guy with the 3+ ward reroll save, my lord with warscythe killed the avatar, but the crons looked pathetic. Sure I could buy another monolith and 4 immortals (for ten) but at 1850 I don't see the point of spending $120.

This list has become a joke. If there really were ctan and crons, my kid wouldn't be scared! The eldar easily outclassed them in every phase and their list had superior builds in every aspect of the game. Personally, I'm inclined to build my IG mech army and SM/CSM army and wait for the new Nevron codex.

Aman, it just sounds like you played really poorly. Taking variety for variety's sake shows you put little thought into your list, which makes me expect you put less thought into your play. There are some pretty obvious problems with the list: a lone Spyder isn't helping anyone, and Necron Lords are never very good at melee. Flayed Ones and Wraiths are also not good enough in close combat; you need a specific plan or tactic to make them effective, like Dash's 44" assault range Wraiths. You also have too few Destroyers for them to be effective.

As this was your first time taking a Monolith, I guarantee you made mistakes with it. It is the catalyst for most of the Necron's tactics, and the aforementioned lack of planning is the bane of such units. I also don't think you understand the Living Metal rule. When his Fire Dragons shot your Monolith, they could only roll a single dice for penetration per shot. Granted, with Tank Hunters, statistically, he's got a good shot of killing it anyway.

Another aspect of this manifold failure is your startling lack of anti-tank. You have no units that kill transports at range. Your "melee" Lord is effective against stationary tanks, and the Monolith is great when it finally gets within 24", but against Mech Eldar neither of those is going to happen. So he gets to do whatever he wants and you have no way to stop him.

Now obviously it is difficult to use Necrons; otherwise we wouldn't have this thread. However it is not the Necrons who were outclassed in every phase.

Quite a lot of suppositions, none worthy of comment.

As for the list, it is what I have painted and ready, which alone justifies the list.

The Necron lord with warscythe killed his Avatar single-handed, then went on to contest the central objective in two vicious rounds of melée, to earn the tie. I put about 60 shots into his commander, who survived all shooting and was killed by the Flayed Ones in melée.

The monolith was destroyed on t2, immediately after entering the board and taking one shot. Since he had skimmer mounted melta squads poised to reach any entry point on my side, there was nothing to be done. I don't know enough to challenge his list or rules, but two 5-man squads got three glancing and two penetrating hits in one round of shooting and the mono exploded. Sure I shot down 6/10 of them but who cares?

The skimmers had holofields that force you to roll twice for a glancing snd take the lowest. I got about 6-8 hits on skimmers and consistently lost destroyed results bc of that cheap upgrade. And glancing is already lame due to the changes in 5th.

The Necrons have three weapons that can shoot armor -Vparticle whip, hvy destroyers and the nightbringer. Since first was destroyed after one shot and I didn't have two and three, end of story. I didn't know the guys list so I'd hardly proxy destryers as heavies, when glancing is often good enough and 9 v 3 shots overall more useful

Aside from making a list just to fight this army, there's very little dual-purpose Cron gear. But I plan for a rematch with a better mission, proxies heavies and Nightbringer. I'd also screen the monolith with warriorsoutin front by 12" to punish the skimmers with 32-64 gauss shots. He can't pass all his holo cover saves...

Note however that this is the opposite of this tacticas advice.

I'm pretty sure that Fire Dragons shouldn't be getting penetrating hits on Monoliths under any circumstances.

What about "Tank Hunter"?


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My take in it is that originally GW intended for Necrons to be a pretty straightforward list. Tons of little choices (ie ImpGd) were unnecessary bc their basic weapons did enough damage to guys and gear alike. Now the game has moved on so much that they struggle to get by.

Overall, I think it's inexcusable that in ten years they can't do a single update of a popular army, even if it's just a clearly written FAQ with some updated rules. Meanwhile every SM faction under the sun is getting overhauled, abd there've been at least two IG codeces.

I was under the impression that tank hunters didn't work on Monoliths.

Wonderful! Can you give a reference or a solid argument? The 2004 FAQ says the ability doesn't, but it's not in the latest FAQ (inexcusably). Did they alter it in later editions of the codex??


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In any event...responding to original topic:

while I did both diagrams and math for your tactica, I see it as excellent in 2/3 of missions, but weak in dawn of war. I Also see it weak in facing a mech army ("my other car is a leman Russ"...in a 9-tank IG list) altho the corner deployment is still strong.

In facing the mech army, the Mono needs to be screened by warriors >12" before it. They can provide the nuisance factor v skimmers and such to hold them at bay with the threat of 32-64 Gauss shots (in my case). Behind them - and getting a cover save - should be the destroyers. Behind them should be the Mono shielding the C'Tan (if any) or Pariahs. The Scarabs and Wraiths can jetbikr out to enfold vulnerable units, as the phalanx ponderously moves towards a central objective. Note that in 50% of games the Crons must advance as the odd (winning) objective favors the opponent.

I welcome your thoughts as I see the Crons as presently struggling.

Kinda off topic but when is the new cron dex coming out?

If you put your Warriors in front of the Monoliths, you are highly likely to get them assaulted and then run down by anything with some decent CC potential.

As for Tank hunters vs. Living Metal, it was specified in the 4th ED faq but not in the 5th. Living Metal doesn't specifically forbid it, but it also hasn't changed in wording since the 4th ed FAQ that disallowed it. Why it was removed from the 5th ed FAQ isn't known.

Because GW couldn't make up their minds.

Codex rumored for later this year.
Since it was written in the 4th FAQ I'd be tempted to use it.
Yes, but the eldar mech I faced is mainly shooty and so mobile I can't prevent their assaulting on their terms anyway. Massed gauss fire seems to worry him, but he could take out the lith my crons need for support. At 235 it's tempting to field a second instead of five destroyers.

Did the numbers and here's my anti-mech list, esp'y vs Tau snd Eldar, skimmer mech forces. They will always have a cheap gadget that gives cover saves to skimmers, thus cutting down 50% of your hits. Massed firepower and good luck is all you can use. Since you lose 12" range if you move you want your infantry screen far forward so they can shoot without moving.

Deployment is 30+ Warriors in 3units (to grab objectives) in a 30" line with the Lord+Orb covering all three. Moving behind this line but always within 6" of Orb are 3 Hvy Destroyers in two units. Their 4+ cover save will protect them when fired upon by long range skimmer weapons. Deployed with Destroyers are your Scarabs or Wraiths, ready to charge out 18" and engage enemy melée troops.

16" behind and within 18" of all three units is the monolith. Any 36" weapons fired by skimmers at Mono will bring them within 24" if the Warriors. Hiding behind the Mono would be your C'Tan.

Your goal is to use the Destroyers and occasionally the Mono and CTan to ordnance skimmers with the help of some Gauss glances. Note that a successful glance requires 20 Gauss shots on average! Obviously Immortals would help this firing line.

With corner deployment you're looking at about 25-30" frontage of Warriors deployed in the corner, with the end of the line about 20-23" from the corner.


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This line advances towards objectives until they've secured a couple, using the CTan to assault a center contested one, perhaps with Wraiths and Flayed Ones.

Note that you could toss the CTan and add 5-6 Destroyers. While this commits you to solely using Firepower, some would say that's enough. I personally disagree and would Field a destroyer Lord plus 2 Hvy or 3 regular Destroyers with 10 Flayed Ones as a counter assault force.

Consider Scarabs and Spyders with your Warriors? They're pretty dangerous against Eldar melee units. Flayed Ones won't accomplish much.

Aman wrote:Wonderful! Can you give a reference or a solid argument? The 2004 FAQ says the ability doesn't, but it's not in the latest FAQ (inexcusably). Did they alter it in later editions of the codex??

Yes, as Mondo mentioned in your thread in YMDC. The current wording on Living Metal makes clear that you only ever get 1d6 + weapon strength. The only exception to that is Ordnance, which still only adds one die but gets to roll two and take the higher one of them. Fire Dragons can only ever kill a monolith on a Glancing 6. No need to be so aggressive with folks when you already know that you're using an outdated copy of the codex. Yes, GW should have added the wording changes to an Errata section of the Necron FAQ, but the fact that they didn't isn't the fault of anyone here.

Even if TH worked, only the FD exarchs have it, so you're saying that either two exarchs both rolled 6s to penetrate, or your opponent cheated and played the whole squad as having TH.

Also not clear on what you said about Holofields. The standard Eldar transport (Wave Serpent) can't take them. The HS tank, the Falcon, can (and makes a decent choice to carry squads of up to 6 Fire Dragons), but it costs ~185+pts and takes away slots he could be using for Fire Prisms, which would give him S9 or S10 (combined fire) shots.

The Grog wrote:As for the Monolith and LOS, I believe the flying base stick that ships with the model is maybe an inch tall. More than low enough to block anything.

It doesn't actually come with one at all. In 4th edition all Skimmers had to be mounted on flying stands and didn't block LOS. In 5th they're mounted on whatever they come with (which is nothing, for Monoliths), and block LOS however they actually do. So Monoliths are walls blocking a lot of LOS.

Yeah, nothing short of S9 or S10 can pen a mono, the eldar player probably didn't know that TH didn't matter, although only the exarchs should get it, so sounds like be cheated there.

Was he the friendly casual kinda guy or the "Victories for the victory god!" kinda guy: he seems like the "must win" kind of guy

They usually pick on Tau and crons, as they are considered easy pray, although they may beat up on the new SM player every nowand then. Most of this players play either mech guard or mechdar.

Best countermeasure - don't play against them.


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Sry bout grmr, 2 slpy 2 cair...

It was a casual game. Since I haven't played much lately I warned him in advance that I'd forget my own special rules and we sort of muddled thru. In the end we both forgot phase out and lots if other little things.

Actually, another player - experienced - mentioned that about Exarchs only having the ability sothe guy checked his book bc he wasn't certain and read the passage aloud, and they confer the ability onto their squad.

I'm just looking for info that GW is supposed to provide as the authors of a large complex game system. You're mistakenly reading aggression into the equation. The game systems are so large that boards like this are necessary to get thru a game at all. Getting a straight and reasonable answer on 2-3 rules that determined the game result has taken time and effort. Personally, I like my game results to revolve around skill and a little luck, not about knowing - or not knowing - the rules.


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The Grog wrote:Consider Scarabs and Spyders with your Warriors? They're pretty dangerous against Eldar melee units. Flayed Ones won't accomplish much.

yes. I forgot to mention spyders.
Actually i think FO are pretty good. On the charge they get 30 WS4 S4 I4 attacks, plus the 3+ Save and WBB. They and the melée Lord were the heroes in my last two games. At 180 points, plus a melée Lord they're only 380, slightly more than Nightbringer. But they've 23-33 attacks, contribute 11 figs against Phase Out, and are underestimated. Whil Nb is nasty, he scares people so much they shoot him down. Of course that Itself can also contribute to victory...

Aman wrote:Actually, another player - experienced - mentioned that about Exarchs only having the ability sothe guy checked his book bc he wasn't certain and read the passage aloud, and they confer the ability onto their squad.

Thanks for the correction; just double-checked my codex and you're right. I must have forgotten since it's so long since I used it. Usually it's overkill for normal vehicles, and it's useless against the Monolith, so I can't remember the last time I saw anyone take it.

Aman wrote:It was a casual game. Since I haven't played much lately I warned him in advance that I'd forget my own special rules and we sort of muddled thru. In the end we both forgot phase out and lots if other little things.

Aman wrote:I'm just looking for info that GW is supposed to provide as the authors of a large complex game system. You're mistakenly reading aggression into the equation. The game systems are so large that boards like this are necessary to get thru a game at all. Getting a straight and reasonable answer on 2-3 rules that determined the game result has taken time and effort. Personally, I like my game results to revolve around skill and a little luck, not about knowing - or not knowing - the rules.

Well, I think there's a bit of a disconnect here. Any complex game requires some practice and understanding to get a representative result. When folks are still in the "learning & making mistakes on the rules" stage, they usually wait a bit before condemning the game or dismissing tactics described by experienced players.

Mannahnin wrote:
It doesn't actually come with one at all. In 4th edition all Skimmers had to be mounted on flying stands and didn't block LOS. In 5th they're mounted on whatever they come with (which is nothing, for Monoliths), and block LOS however they actually do. So Monoliths are walls blocking a lot of LOS.

Hmm, I'd swear mine did. But I bought mine when the codex released, too, so that was entire editions ago.

Flayed Ones are going to have trouble beating anything that dares to call itself a melee unit. Talking about Eldar in specific, Banshees are likely to just charge the FOs and win flatly. Scarabs and Spyders may still loose too, but at least they won't be run down, and I think they have a better chance of winning.

My FO meleed his banshees for 3-4 rounds at partial strength. In the end they were wiped out but took all but a couple with them which the Lord finished off.


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Mannaheim, I said I'm returning and rusty. I've been playing 40k since 3rd edition, about 1998, and played Necrons with the original box set. And I've been playing/designing wargames for 29 years, and have a game design company with two published games. After 10-15 years of GW, my patience with them is thinner than Elrond's list of allies. Considering the state of this codex, it's fair to say they are sloppy at best. Why should I or anyone have to exert this much effort to get questions answered that should be right on the front page of a complete FAQ? Plus if you've the 1st ed codex (both mine snd the flgs) you need the previous FAQ
too?? Get the FAQ outta here GW! . Bunch of numnuts but I like the figs. Overall, I appreciate Privateer Press more and more...

I hear you. Since the DE finally got their update, Necrons are the most outdated book, and the FAQ missing errata (which errata go back to when they were doing "stealth reprints") is just terrible.

I hadn't looked at the Necron FAQ for a while and am horrified at what seems to have gone missing.

I have opened two Monolith boxes this year and neither have come with a flying base. Just throwing that out there.

Not surprised. Mine did, but I bought mine within a month of the original codex release. Long before TLOS and the basing problems & restrictions that came with it.

Fwiw, no flying base in my mono fromseversl years ago.

So how about warrior spamming? Not a viable option? Even with using disruption field scarabs for anti tank?

I would advise against it.

Warriors are just too weak in CC. Without Monoliths to hide behind you'd be phased out in pretty short order.

.

Hey, glad you liked it buddy! Thanks for reading!

Heading over to your thread right now!