Of course, as a Loyal Imperial Citizen, EVERY XENOS MUST DIE, but in a generic sense I really dont like the fact that the Eldar/Dark Eldar, Necros, and (worst of all) Orks are just fantasy rip-offs. You cant even say that the necrons are just Terminator ripp offs, given that they have a vague Egyptian decoration vibe going on some of them, which seems like a pretty overt reference to tomb kings.
The Tyranids are alright - a bit too "Aliens" for my taste and a pretty blatant rip But the flip side of that is if the Orks had a little more "Predator" in their design they would look significantly more alien and sci-fi - which is something I really with 40k had more of. As it is, the Tau and the Space Marines get the awards for the greatest amount of inspired science fiction going into them, with both capitalizing off long established themes of either Grey Aliens + Japanese Mecha for the Tau (which is actually a pretty inspired combination), and the classic Heinlein Starship troopers for the all conquering Astartes. (Which doesnt really need to be unique, because its a fecking awesome concept that has a wonderful place in all sorts of sci-fi. Because if you dont have a starship trooper analogue, then your left with either crappy stormtroopers as mass infantry, or worse a bunch of starfleet officers who don't exactly inspire confidence in terms of imagining heavy ground assaults....)
But anway, I was just wondering if there were others who shared my view that I'd like a bunch more sci-fi and a lot less warhammer fantasy in 40k. It's a nonsense dream of course - nothing will come of it, and i dont mind how an army plays as being inspired by an analogue in the fantasy setting... but space orcs and space elfs and space undead suck big time. The tau shouldnt be the lone standard of a uniquely 40k alien race...
Everything is a rip off of everything else.
Current sci-fi and fantasy stuff steals from older stuff and older stuff steals from the ancient fairytales and legends.
purplefood wrote:Everything is a rip off of everything else.
Current sci-fi and fantasy stuff steals from older stuff and older stuff steals from the ancient fairytales and legends.
Yeah, but at the end of the day I prefer the Predator as an a vaugly orcish monster as opposed to the uninspired placing of warhammer orcs in space, and replacing the "c" with a "k". And when will the Efs on the verge of extinction dealing with dead gods cliche get used up? I'd rather see savage elf barbarians rather then yet another Elfs=fallen Atlantis vibe that so much fantasy has, and certainly would rather that tired theme be thrown out of what is a sci-fi setting with much better potential then that.
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Monster Rain wrote:I always thought that part of the charm of 40k was that it had all sorts of little inside jokes and references from the sci fi genre.
yeah, but I'm not taling what influences it pulls from other sci-fi settings... so much as how stupid I find that the concepts of space elfs and space orcs are.
Orks are similar to orcs in nought but name, take a look at LoTR orcs and then compare them to the Orks of 40k;
Orcs are slaves to the big bad
Orcs are slim and primitive
Orcs are not naturally industrious
Orcs seem to like following orders
Orcs are basicly goblins
whereas Orks
Orks follow the biggest and toughest Ork
Orks are huge and muscley
Orks have advanced technology
Orks follow nobodies orders
Orks are fungus based lifeforms
If you think everything in 40k is a straight rip you don't know enough about 40k.
purplefood wrote:Everything is a rip off of everything else.
Current sci-fi and fantasy stuff steals from older stuff and older stuff steals from the ancient fairytales and legends.
Yeah, but at the end of the day I prefer the Predator as an a vaugly orcish monster as opposed to the uninspired placing of warhammer orcs in space, and replacing the "c" with a "k". And when will the Efs on the verge of extinction dealing with dead gods cliche get used up? I'd rather see savage elf barbarians rather then yet another Elfs=fallen Atlantis vibe that so much fantasy has, and certainly would rather that tired theme be thrown out of what is a sci-fi setting with much better potential then that.
Why not get rid of humanity while you're at it? Human are real right? So having something real in a fictional setting is un-creative and according to you should be scrapped. The Orcs in Fantasy and 40k are similar but not that similar.
And Tyranids aren't really "Aliens"(Movie) they are different, maybe they used the aliens from "Aliens" as inspiration but they didn't just copy them.
And also Tau can be said to be copied from War of the Worlds. Physically weak aliens in large technologically superior robotic walkers? Sounds similar to me. And the SM are probably the most copied thing in Sci-fi today.
So does it make you happy that as of current the dwarfs aren't "holding onto the last" but rather are "lunch"?
I support more unique armies, I just wouldn't scrap what currently is. Cliche as many of the armies may be its apart of the story enough to me that to lose it would really be to lose apart what the game is. Of course, they inevitably will be another race that goes the way of the Squats and will give me a reason to be as grumpy as some of the old timers but I'd much rather it didn't. More armies = more fluff = me happy.
Carlovonsexron wrote:Of course, as a Loyal Imperial Citizen, EVERY XENOS MUST DIE, but in a generic sense I really dont like the fact that the Eldar/Dark Eldar, Necros, and (worst of all) Orks are just fantasy rip-offs. You cant even say that the necrons are just Terminator ripp offs, given that they have a vague Egyptian decoration vibe going on some of them, which seems like a pretty overt reference to tomb kings.
The Tyranids are alright - a bit too "Aliens" for my taste and a pretty blatant rip But the flip side of that is if the Orks had a little more "Predator" in their design they would look significantly more alien and sci-fi - which is something I really with 40k had more of. As it is, the Tau and the Space Marines get the awards for the greatest amount of inspired science fiction going into them, with both capitalizing off long established themes of either Grey Aliens + Japanese Mecha for the Tau (which is actually a pretty inspired combination), and the classic Heinlein Starship troopers for the all conquering Astartes. (Which doesnt really need to be unique, because its a fecking awesome concept that has a wonderful place in all sorts of sci-fi. Because if you dont have a starship trooper analogue, then your left with either crappy stormtroopers as mass infantry, or worse a bunch of starfleet officers who don't exactly inspire confidence in terms of imagining heavy ground assaults....)
But anway, I was just wondering if there were others who shared my view that I'd like a bunch more sci-fi and a lot less warhammer fantasy in 40k. It's a nonsense dream of course - nothing will come of it, and i dont mind how an army plays as being inspired by an analogue in the fantasy setting... but space orcs and space elfs and space undead suck big time. The tau shouldnt be the lone standard of a uniquely 40k alien race...
so, that means the Space Marines have to go to... they're a rip off of many sci-fi genres... oh, and Imperial Guard, so, who's left Tau? oops, a rip-off of anime/manga styed sci-fi. congratulations, you have just ended 40K by showing that it has no originality at all...
FLAME REMOVED BY THE MODERATI. Please don't call people names. It makes you look worse than it does them. -The Mgmt.
so, that means the Space Marines have to go to... they're a rip off of many sci-fi genres... oh, and Imperial Guard, so, who's left Tau? oops, a rip-off of anime/manga styed sci-fi. congratulations, you have just ended 40K by showing that it has no originality at all...
moron...
Someone seems to not have the conception that my main critique is with the influence of warhammer fantasy in 40k, but of course calling me a 'moron' while ignoring much of what I say must be a true example of skill and calculated logical argument...
Except oh wait. It isnt.
I dont have a problem with influence- Influence is good an inevitable. But the whole sale adoption of fantasy tropes is lame.
so, that means the Space Marines have to go to... they're a rip off of many sci-fi genres... oh, and Imperial Guard, so, who's left Tau? oops, a rip-off of anime/manga styed sci-fi. congratulations, you have just ended 40K by showing that it has no originality at all...
moron...
Someone seems to not have the conception that my main critique is with the influence of warhammer fantasy in 40k, but of course calling me a 'moron' while ignoring much of what I say must be a true example of skill and calculated logical argument...
Except oh wait. It isnt.
I dont have a problem with influence- Influence is good an inevitable. But the whole sale adoption of fantasy tropes is lame.
you're critique that 40k is to influenced by fanaty, wow. its made by a company that created warhammer fantasy battles then created warhammer fantasy in space (thats what GW started out doing
to be honest moron is a good term for someone who thinks they will get a positive responce by going onto a 40k forum and saying you hate 40k. its kind of like a gay couple going on honeymoon in alabama, a moronic idea.
Carlovonsexron wrote:I'm not fighting anything, or anyone - you all are the ones up in arms because I have an opinion...
Up in arms is a strong phrase.
People are objecting to your opinion because they disagree with it. That's what people do. It's what people have always done.
If your opinion is contrary to the popular beliefs of a society or community voicing those opinions will always be met with objections and arguments.
Nothing is gonna change that.
I dont hate 40k - I love most aspects about it. Because lets be real here -the big and central theme in 40k is still how the Imperium deals with the catastrophe of the Horus Heresy and the legacy it has wrought for the Human race.
I love the concepts of an Imperium of Man, particularly one that has so much room for variation and uniqueness and letting people put thier own spin from endless legions of IG to crack chapters of Astartes - and then you get the weirdness of the mechanicum, the dark but fascinating and exciting tones from the Inquisition and neat little facets possibilities for unique characters like rogue traders.
In Human terms, 40k is full of greatness - a unique setting that blends together to many different elements of influence into one fascinating unique whole.
But you take the greatness that has been imbued into the Human factions and compare it with whats going on with the aliens...
...And I cant help but be disappointed. thats hardly Moronic. That's realistic.
Carlovonsexron wrote:I dont hate 40k - I love most aspects about it. Because lets be real here -the big and central theme in 40k is still how the Imperium deals with the catastrophe of the Horus Heresy and the legacy it has wrought for the Human race.
I love the concepts of an Imperium of Man, particularly one that has so much room for variation and uniqueness and letting people put thier own spin from endless legions of IG to crack chapters of Astartes - and then you get the weirdness of the mechanicum, the dark but fascinating and exciting tones from the Inquisition and neat little facets possibilities for unique characters like rogue traders.
In Human terms, 40k is full of greatness - a unique setting that blends together to many different elements of influence into one fascinating unique whole.
But you take the greatness that has been imbued into the Human factions and compare it with whats going on with the aliens...
...And I cant help but be disappointed.
Ahh right. I get what you mean.
You're saying that compared to the general background you feel the Xenos races do not live up to their potential?
That's a feeling i can relate to sort of.
There are many aspects of the IoM i don't like but it manages to work.
Most of the Xenos could use work.
Exactly! And for me the main set ups for disappointment is that while there may be an 'Empire' in WHF, and an "Imperium" in WH40K - the similarities end there. Which is a good thing, IMO, but that lack of similarity does not stretch into the rest of the setting.
After all, if GW is inspired enough to make the Human factions so wonderfully unique from each other in thier flagship product lines, why make carbon copies of the alien races from non human fantasy races? I mean at the very LEAST they could have (and in theory always still can) have at least altered the superficial look of the Ork and Eldar to make them a bit more alien like. To date my favorite depiction of an Eldar is one by FFG which at least trys to make them look a bit more "alien" then the average GW depiction...
There doesn't even have to be much fluff work (well, perhaps more to flesh them out) in a lot of cases - if some of the races just had a bit of a superficial make over and i think that might be enough to do it...
My mentioning of the Tau and Tyranids in the OP isnt to criticize them, but more to point out that GW can and has successful used other influences to make some unique and exciting races. Far from damning them, I'm lauding them!
The thing is though. Orks and eldar (afaik) are from the old Rogue Trader days. They were/are integral to the creation of 40k as we know it. Also Orks provide the funny part of 40k. Eldar have parallels with the High Elves but not quite enough to make the Elves in space.
Carlovonsexron wrote:
And my point is that orcs in space are lame.
And your wrong.
As for Iom IG = Empire
SM = Bretonnia
How do you not see that.
Aren´t empire soldiers better equipped than Bretonnia?
On topic: on of my favorite things about warhammer 40k was that was warhammer in space, sort like what happens 40,000 years after warhammer. (of course Im probably wrong with this part ) I liked it because it felt like a expansion for warhammer.
I guess you would like another type of futuristic game?
Carlovonsexron wrote:I dont hate 40k - I love most aspects about it. Because lets be real here -the big and central theme in 40k is still how the Imperium deals with the catastrophe of the Horus Heresy and the legacy it has wrought for the Human race.
I love the concepts of an Imperium of Man, particularly one that has so much room for variation and uniqueness and letting people put thier own spin from endless legions of IG to crack chapters of Astartes - and then you get the weirdness of the mechanicum, the dark but fascinating and exciting tones from the Inquisition and neat little facets possibilities for unique characters like rogue traders.
In Human terms, 40k is full of greatness - a unique setting that blends together to many different elements of influence into one fascinating unique whole.
But you take the greatness that has been imbued into the Human factions and compare it with whats going on with the aliens...
...And I cant help but be disappointed. thats hardly Moronic. That's realistic.
So you'd rather have only IG, Space Marines, and Chaos? Because your topic specifically says "and think they should be scrapped". Based on your original post, maybe Tau and Tyranids get to stay on probation, but the other armies go away. The other armies are an integral part of the fluff, whether you like it or not. If you prefer imperial fluff, than play imperial armies, but don't go out saying other armies should be scrapped because you don't like their fluff. I would never play a Space Wolves army because I personally think their fluff is stupid, but I'm not calling for them to be scrapped.
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Shas'O Dorian wrote:I'll just leave this here:
+1
Edit: While his topic was poorly worded, it is possible that the OP isn't actually trolling. If this is the case, my apologies.
Well, its not actually meant to be a troll - not in the slightest. Perhaps its been poorly worded, that would be a fair critique, but a troll thread was not my intention!
That said, no I wouldnt like the game to be solelly IoM/Chaos +Tau & Nids - rather I'd like it to be all those plus other alien races that dont have a direct WARHAMMER FANTASY analog.
Or at least some sort of face lift & fluff lift to make them not quite so blatant.
And Regarding IoM=Empire, Space Marines = Brittonia, that is at best a very, very rough fit. certainly the fluff for the 4 entities doesn't really mesh as easily as it can be seen for the Eldar/Elves, and Orks/Orcs. I'd say that if they are direct parallels then at least GW has swept its tracks decently enough with them in terms of both form and function.
A bit harsh there, arnt you? I'm not talking about thing from a game play standpoint at all - in all fairness I'm all for more Xenos armies, but I want unique Xenos armies.
For the purposes of the thread, I dont give a flip about gameplay values.
And as you might suspect under all that burning rage of hatekill, I'm not too intimidated by someone wanting terrible things to happen to my army just because someones offended by the lack of creativity I find in two (or three depending on your view point) of 40K's Xenos races.
Find one fantasy game without some sort of Orc or Ork. 40k Orks have interesting fluff, good humor, and play very fun. Imperium is going downhill. There are Vampire (Vampire Counts) and Viking (Skeggi) armies in the Imperium. There is no use arguing. GW steals from itself, but cuts the 2 games.
Of course there will be similarities. 40k was designed as a space Warhammer from the start. There is no denying that.
And really? You think that SPAECE MAHRINEZ are original? You have much to learn, young padawan. Come back to the forum when you have read more than 1 codex, alright?
I never claimed that space marines were original - indeed, if you read that whole body paragraph of the OP, I point them out as not being original, but a virtual necessity in any Sci-fi setting that isnt star trek or star wars.
GW just happens to have at least built up enough of their own fluff around them to give them a very distinct flavor.
I also never claimed that Orc/ks shouldnt be in warhammer fantasy - just that 40k has so many other unique spins and twists on old established concepts with enough stuff all of thier own thrown in that space orcs fall flat by comparison. I never said they were funny, I never claimed they werent entertaining in thier own way.
I did claim that I dont particularly find them all that compelling as an alien race, and that I wouldn't mind them getting the ax for something a little more unique. That's an opinion of course - one I was curious to see other peoples takes on. But I have no intention on letting people attempt to intimidate me out of my opinion, through use of vulgarities, threats, threatening wishes, or ridicule.
Carlovonsexron wrote:Of course, as a Loyal Imperial Citizen, EVERY XENOS MUST DIE, but in a generic sense I really dont like the fact that the Eldar/Dark Eldar, Necros, and (worst of all) Orks are just fantasy rip-offs. You cant even say that the necrons are just Terminator ripp offs, given that they have a vague Egyptian decoration vibe going on some of them, which seems like a pretty overt reference to tomb kings.
The Tyranids are alright - a bit too "Aliens" for my taste and a pretty blatant rip But the flip side of that is if the Orks had a little more "Predator" in their design they would look significantly more alien and sci-fi - which is something I really with 40k had more of. As it is, the Tau and the Space Marines get the awards for the greatest amount of inspired science fiction going into them, with both capitalizing off long established themes of either Grey Aliens + Japanese Mecha for the Tau (which is actually a pretty inspired combination), and the classic Heinlein Starship troopers for the all conquering Astartes. (Which doesnt really need to be unique, because its a fecking awesome concept that has a wonderful place in all sorts of sci-fi. Because if you dont have a starship trooper analogue, then your left with either crappy stormtroopers as mass infantry, or worse a bunch of starfleet officers who don't exactly inspire confidence in terms of imagining heavy ground assaults....)
But anway, I was just wondering if there were others who shared my view that I'd like a bunch more sci-fi and a lot less warhammer fantasy in 40k. It's a nonsense dream of course - nothing will come of it, and i dont mind how an army plays as being inspired by an analogue in the fantasy setting... but space orcs and space elfs and space undead suck big time. The tau shouldnt be the lone standard of a uniquely 40k alien race...
Let us see an idea from you, hmm! If you think of a new race that is nor influenced by WHFB or copied off anyone in the Internet. Manage to do this task, and I will not post on this thread. Go.
You want to see what kind of concept for a playable, model-able ALIEN race that is NOT derived from anything else (anytime, anywhere) you can come up with then?
Got news for you. It's pretty much ALL been done. Bug-like Aliens (Starship troopers, Armor), Reptilian Aliens, Felinoid aliens, tentacular blobby aliens, Hexapedal aliens, vampires (Space Vampires, that is, not the sparkly kind).
The trick, is (like Dan O'Bannon's famous quote*) to steal a little bit from EVERYONE and put it together into a semi-cohesive form that works. This is what 40k is. It stole concepts from EVERY MAJOR SF novel and source written prior to 1987 and integrated them into the melange.
Tolkien? That hack! Even HE appropriated other mythologies to cobble together his "hollow earth" sagas.
* "I didn't steal Alien from anyone. I stole it from EVERYONE."
chowderhead13 wrote:Let us see an idea from you, hmm! If you think of a new race that is nor influenced by WHFB or copied off anyone in the Internet. Manage to do this task, and I will not post on this thread. Go.
How about a species of sentient arachno-avians who's main goal is subversion of neighboring species into fighting one another allowing this species to essentially sit back and take on threats piece-meal, if even necessary. An infusion of grimdark might be add by giving them a particular urge to orchestrate grand schemes of show with these "lesser" species, giving them in some whats a tzeentchian &slannesh bend to them if we needed to identify them as being susceptible to any particular Chaos Gods.. Biology wise they are about on par with a human in both strength and intelligence, and tech wise their mechanization have left them with a powerful enough economy as to have a fairly nicely developed tech base from trade - including an understanding of some second hand Imperial tech. Governance is handled through a synod, a strange cross of hereditary nobility ad elected official (think a limited pool of candidates, based off familial descent) with religious and mercantile over tones. These families retain power for themselves based on in jostling between themselves just as much an appeasing the masses through what ever current scheme is though appropriate.
Inwardly virulently xenophobic, it is a race that can "put on a nice face" to deal with other species (such as the IoM) when needed, they look wearily upon the Imperium of Man - having been an Eastern Fringe power for sometime (and far longer then the still idealistic Tau- and perhaps only saved from conquest by the outbreak of the Horus Heresy.) they look to buy themselves time to work up the means to change the balance of power in the Eastern Fringe, potentially by seeking ways to capitlize off the Tyranids - provided that they can fight them, the IoM, and any other threats off.
I dont know if that'll be totally unique, but i figure its a decent first go.
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chromedog wrote:You want more original xenos armies ...
You want to see what kind of concept for a playable, model-able ALIEN race that is NOT derived from anything else (anytime, anywhere) you can come up with then?
Got news for you. It's pretty much ALL been done. Bug-like Aliens (Starship troopers, Armor), Reptilian Aliens, Felinoid aliens, tentacular blobby aliens, Hexapedal aliens, vampires (Space Vampires, that is, not the sparkly kind).
The trick, is (like Dan O'Bannon's famous quote*) to steal a little bit from EVERYONE and put it together into a semi-cohesive form that works. This is what 40k is. It stole concepts from EVERY MAJOR SF novel and source written prior to 1987 and integrated them into the melange.
Tolkien? That hack! Even HE appropriated other mythologies to cobble together his "hollow earth" sagas.
* "I didn't steal Alien from anyone. I stole it from EVERYONE."
No, I want more Xenos armies not blatantly ripped off from warhammer fantasy.
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Mukkin'About wrote:
Shas'O Dorian wrote:
What the hell did you expect a topic like this to generate besides a total flame fest?
something a little more mature then a total flame fest.
I like the concept of gender based flight - the entire species evolved from an ancestor capable of flight, but the females being lithe and smaller retain full wings on two of the appendages, and other wise have two dedicated to walking, two that are dedicated arms & hands, and the last two are geared more towards arm & hand, but can easilly be used for locomotion.
Males ( bucking the trend for most invertebrates, such as i understand them - though I guess these guys need some sort of an endoskeleton also, to support thier own weight. maybe the exoskeleton is just stuff left on certain portions of the body.) are larger and more robust, and have lost the ability to fly altogether - the appendages that would be wings if on the female are now another set of arms & hands.
weapon wise its hard to cover ground that isnt already taken - energy base or solid base someone has it covered, but I guess I envision a race that takes a weapons policy somewhere between the IoM and the Eldar in terms of munitions and in close combat the prospect of male arachno-avian reavers wielding 6 power scimitars (or perhaps the females with 4 flying down upon you naturally - or the males ina jump-pack analogue technology) could look really, really awesome.
Space travel wise its on par with the IoM - in a alot of ways I sort of imagine this species as one that was poised for galactic dominance (at least on the eastern Fringe, if not the whole galaxy) after the fall of the Eldar if the IoM handnt already been ready to win back the pre-dark age of technology human worlds.
As for weapons you could always say they have found an entirely different state of matter and their ammunition is in that state of matter.
They could also have guns that actually disrupt space and/or matter or that completely remove it from from existence or change it or cause it to exist in the warp instead of normal space. Or guns that shoot waves of concussive air. Or weapons that are purely psychic and attack the enemy minds.
ChocolateGork wrote:Would they reproduce on mass e.g Masses of eggs or more slowly like humans and other mammals
Automatically Appended Next Post: How do they handle other atmospheres?
What is their skin like? A carapace or skin?
Are their people rebellious and/or free thinking?
Do they value personal possessions?
Is the culture predominantly warrior based?
I assume they have psykers to be able to travel the warp. How powerful are they?
-Reproduction is handled via classic sex that results in the gestation of a soft internal egg. Under duress the female can expel the egg and it can develop in a container of water however. One egg produced at a time, though sometimes twins or other multiples will be produced from a single egg. development time takes about 6 months, but then the species has a shorter life span (about 50-60 years if unaugmented) as the flip side of that.
-They dont handle atmospheres that arnt similar to their home worlds very well. Though their home world has an earth like atmosphere, its was not always so: the world atmosphere was originally substantially more dense with water vapor, making it something of a hot house environment, and supported the weight of large exo skeletons. over time this gradually began to dissipate selecting for a gradual development of hollow bone endoskeletons, with some areas (particularly in the males - such that its something of a gender trait, like facial hair in humans. Not totally unknown for males not to have it or females to have it... but taken to be a "bit strange" in those cases.) left with a cartilage like carapace. Over all Human/Tau tolerances apply. The skin is a bit thicker then a humans, but still comparable. No particular difference when it comes to las pistol shot or a space marines relic blade. A bit more able to withstand blunt trauma, but in the universe of 40k, the only targeted blunt trauma you're likely to receive is a power mace hit to the face from an angry Astarte, and nothing but a crap load of armor is going to offer you any real protection against that.
-Free thinking, but a bit more single minded then Humans tend to be - so once a course of action has been reached they pursue it somewhat relentlessly, though a good enough reason will (like with any species) make them reconsider things. Relentless necrons this species is not, and there is a decent reason they seek to play off surrounding species against one another through sly works and byzantine diplomacy. These are traits of a species evolved from animals that lived in very small groups where every member had a specific role - not the motley assortment of proto apes that would spawn humans, or the herds of alien goat things (beasts of the plains ) that would yield the tau.
-Personal possessions are indeed valued, and to answer two questions at once, the theme of the culture has a big time mercantile bend to it. To tie it in with planetary development, the species evolved in tandem with their planet undergoing enormous climactic changes of a thinning atmosphere - and was pushed towards sentience and from sentience to language and culture by having to deal with changing landscapes and scarcities in materials familial groups were forced into interacting with each other more and more and the advantage lay with those which could communicate with each other. This has lived on in something of a "hoarding" mentality and resulted in some of the shrewdest merchants in the Eastern Fringe, much to the consternation of many a rogue trader looking to get the upper hand in a trade arrangement. Military might is also something of a commodity, and the military might of the species can be seen as mercenary like in nature - including being willing to hire alien mercenaries (including groups of Humans - even renegade space marines perhaps? Alpha legion shout out, I'm looking at you!) But unlike the ta there is no greater good uniting them all, and there are no races that this species has any particular tie to - its just a contract, and when the contract (or the fighting - which ends last) ends no more is expected, because it wasn't a part of the deal. (I put this aspect in as it would be neat to see people come up with yet more enticing alien species and be able to convert them to have a couple different troops choices of radially different aliens, but they all fulfill pretty much the same role. But I dont want to tread down Tau territory to where they are all fighting for the great good, rather its pretty obvious that its just for the cash.) However there is some rigidity to their martial culture, such as the Synod guard Which act as a command staff for field armies (and maintaining its own armies on every world to be the first in and last out type deals in conflicts, or the last, greatest stage of defense) And what are viewed as "proper proportions" of there being less mercenaries in an army then there are troops from the species - just in case the Mercenaries turn out to be less then honorable to the terms of the contract.) And certain conflicts are less liklly to see mercenaries employed. Conflicts with the IoM are for instance very likely to see mercenaries - the need for raw man power against the IoM is legendary (as are the tyranids - but it turns out its very hard to convince mercenaries to sign up to fight the tyranids...) So like any good merchant, they are quite the opportunist.
-psykers exist in slightly less proportions then they do in Humans - as such they tend to be secreted away to temples to be trained in ways to combat deamons who would (like any psyker species) be happy to prey on thier souls and have an easy ticket to the materium. Surviving the training leads to figures who more or less dominate space travel ad religion - but are jealously counter balanced in power by the hereditary members of the synod. There have been occasions where a synod family has given birth to a psyker, and upon maturation these have wielded considerable power and influence in society. Some fringe planets (The Empire is a much more major regional power then the Tau - four or five times as large and located on major trade routes) dont exactly follow this pattern, and and a Psyker nobility has come to fruition on these words, and more then once this has resulted in open war fare with the central synod - usually to see these rebellious psyker princes crushed, but some have managed to reign for quite awhile even in the face of considerable adversity...
...some say that the ordos Xenos has been playing a similar game of sponsoring infighting, but all relevant records have been deemed classified. What is known is that Rogue traders often seem to have dealings with them, including some mercenary works (for both sides) and in capacities of either acting as, or carrying over official IoM diplomats.
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ChocolateGork wrote:As for weapons you could always say they have found an entirely different state of matter and their ammunition is in that state of matter.
They could also have guns that actually disrupt space and/or matter or that completely remove it from from existence or change it or cause it to exist in the warp instead of normal space. Or guns that shoot waves of concussive air. Or weapons that are purely psychic and attack the enemy minds.
I like those ideas! certainly something to much on!
Carlovonsexron wrote:Of course, as a Loyal Imperial Citizen, EVERY XENOS MUST DIE, but in a generic sense I really dont like the fact that the Eldar/Dark Eldar, Necros, and (worst of all) Orks are just fantasy rip-offs. You cant even say that the necrons are just Terminator ripp offs, given that they have a vague Egyptian decoration vibe going on some of them, which seems like a pretty overt reference to tomb kings.
The Tyranids are alright - a bit too "Aliens" for my taste and a pretty blatant rip But the flip side of that is if the Orks had a little more "Predator" in their design they would look significantly more alien and sci-fi - which is something I really with 40k had more of. As it is, the Tau and the Space Marines get the awards for the greatest amount of inspired science fiction going into them, with both capitalizing off long established themes of either Grey Aliens + Japanese Mecha for the Tau (which is actually a pretty inspired combination), and the classic Heinlein Starship troopers for the all conquering Astartes. (Which doesnt really need to be unique, because its a fecking awesome concept that has a wonderful place in all sorts of sci-fi. Because if you dont have a starship trooper analogue, then your left with either crappy stormtroopers as mass infantry, or worse a bunch of starfleet officers who don't exactly inspire confidence in terms of imagining heavy ground assaults....)
But anway, I was just wondering if there were others who shared my view that I'd like a bunch more sci-fi and a lot less warhammer fantasy in 40k. It's a nonsense dream of course - nothing will come of it, and i dont mind how an army plays as being inspired by an analogue in the fantasy setting... but space orcs and space elfs and space undead suck big time. The tau shouldnt be the lone standard of a uniquely 40k alien race...
Then what is the Imperium going to kill then? We got have enemies man or the game will just be manhammer 40klol, its like now days just a billion so years in the future. I like how they have taken fantasy races and put them into a future setting its like your getting taste of the old style fantasy world(swords,CC, orks,elfs,etc.) and throwing guns, space and superhumans into the mix, whats not to love?
I have to admit, the fact that 40k was a 'Science Fantasy' style universe was what really helped get me into it. To me, that was what made it different and unique compared to a whole lot of other things. Yes, individual concepts were stolen from everywhere, but hey....the first thing you learn as an author is that no idea is original. Somewhere, someone has had the exact same idea as you, because no matter how far apart you are, if you're writing in a genre like science fiction, you are going to be drawing from the same people. You will be drawin on Asimov, Heinlein, Verne and all of the science fiction authors who came before you.
However, your job is to take all those ideas that came before you, and combine it into your own new thing. And to me, that's what 40k did. It took science fiction, merged it with fantasy, and combined it with its own grimdark flavor to create its whole own unique thing. And to be honest, that's what got me into this whole thing. If it wasn't for the appeal that I can legitimately shout 'I'm crushing elves beneath tanks!', I sincerely doubt I would have gotten into 40k in the first place.
The background got me in, and the background keeps me in. So bring on more alien races! Give us more fluff! At least, of course, until the Imperium finally pulls itself back together and crushes all the filthy xenos beneath humanities iron boot.
Carlovonsexron wrote: Necros, and (worst of all) Orks are just fantasy rip-offs.
WARHAMMER 40k is warhammer in the future so they are not rip offs of the fantasy games they are those races.
that has never been the concept of 40k, it was once the concept that WFB was in the 40k universe and that sigmar was hinted to be a primarch, but that has been retconned years ago.
Carlovonsexron wrote: Necros, and (worst of all) Orks are just fantasy rip-offs.
WARHAMMER 40k is warhammer in the future so they are not rip offs of the fantasy games they are those races.
Been stated quite a few times by GW after the 'Sigmar was an Astartes' theories that the Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40k universes are completely seperate, even if they do share alot.
---
As for the OP, I would like to agree, but at the same time disagree.....somehow that doesn't even make sense to myself. I'd like to see more xenos races in 40k, especially unique ones that weren't taken from Warhammer Fantasy (Even if at the same time I'm a fan of the Orks and Eldar), so I can see some new things on the table, and crush them beneath my heels. Quite hypocritical coming from a SM player, but it gets quite boring playing Space Marines/Imperial Guard pretty much all the time, with a xenos race here and there to mix things up, so more xenos and thus more xenos players and fluff would be very welcome....perhaps I'd even switch over myself, field the terrifying creature bent on destruction....could be fun!
But at the same time, the races we have now are legacy, established, and quite well done, even if the inspiration is obvious, so I'd rather not see them scrapped. The orks are hilarious, and amusing to play against, where you really never know what's going to happen next, and the Eldar are psychic ninja elves in space to quote Melissa.
Dark elder (they look ****), elder (they just look like elves, hell gets some high elves and give them guns, can GW get any more lazy?), necrons. (I just don't like the look of them, or sound of there name) Never liked orks either, but better keep them as the only people left to fight is nids, tau and chaos otherwise.
Carlovonsexron wrote:Of course, as a Loyal Imperial Citizen, EVERY XENOS MUST DIE, but in a generic sense I really dont like the fact that the Eldar/Dark Eldar, Necros, and (worst of all) Orks are just fantasy rip-offs. You cant even say that the necrons are just Terminator ripp offs, given that they have a vague Egyptian decoration vibe going on some of them, which seems like a pretty overt reference to tomb kings.
The Tyranids are alright - a bit too "Aliens" for my taste and a pretty blatant rip But the flip side of that is if the Orks had a little more "Predator" in their design they would look significantly more alien and sci-fi - which is something I really with 40k had more of. As it is, the Tau and the Space Marines get the awards for the greatest amount of inspired science fiction going into them, with both capitalizing off long established themes of either Grey Aliens + Japanese Mecha for the Tau (which is actually a pretty inspired combination), and the classic Heinlein Starship troopers for the all conquering Astartes. (Which doesnt really need to be unique, because its a fecking awesome concept that has a wonderful place in all sorts of sci-fi. Because if you dont have a starship trooper analogue, then your left with either crappy stormtroopers as mass infantry, or worse a bunch of starfleet officers who don't exactly inspire confidence in terms of imagining heavy ground assaults....)
But anway, I was just wondering if there were others who shared my view that I'd like a bunch more sci-fi and a lot less warhammer fantasy in 40k. It's a nonsense dream of course - nothing will come of it, and i dont mind how an army plays as being inspired by an analogue in the fantasy setting... but space orcs and space elfs and space undead suck big time. The tau shouldnt be the lone standard of a uniquely 40k alien race...
When 40k started it was basically 'Warhammer in Space'. Hence Eldar become Space Elves, Squats were Space Dwarves, Orks were Space Orks (and were acutally names as such on the box). It was a LOT more jokey. Over time they've cut back on this, and used influences from a far wider pool than just traditional fantasy. However, when they decided that 'Space Dwarfs' was a silly concept and scrapped the Squats, there was a huge sense of outrage - people still feel hard done by today about the Squats, so you can see why they're loathe to scrap anything else.
Secondly, one of the great things about 40k IS that it borrows so heavily from other things. That's why models like the Praetorians were so popular - because people wanted to field a 'cool' Zulu-war style army without having to change game systems. One of the things GW encourage is the idea that ANY army is possible. You want to play WW1 Russians against Giant Space Mecha? You can. You want to play Exodite Elfs-in-Space vs Techno-zombie AdMech? You can. This is a good thing.
Lastly, you surely will have noticed how every sci-fi setting has the same basic archetypes for it's races? We have a hard time, as humans, empathising with anything that's totally unhuman, so we tend to invent alien races that are just like humans, but with one facet of their personality stronger. Human becomes a kind of 'default' setting. So, Star Trek has Humans, Angry Strong Warrior Humans (Klingons) and Peaceful Intelligent Long Lived Wise Humans (Vulcans). Babylon 5 has exactly the same, except now it's Menbari and those Russian guys. Traditional Fantasy has exactly the same in Orcs and Elves, or Dwarves and Elves, or whatever. The point is that, yes, they could have created a load of completely non-humanoid original races, but in order for people to be able to get into the game, their Floating Blob Aliens that are Intelligent Long Lived and Wise would still, basically, be doing the same job as elves/vulcans/eldar. The essential characters in a good story rarely change.
chowderhead13 wrote:Let us see an idea from you, hmm! If you think of a new race that is nor influenced by WHFB or copied off anyone in the Internet. Manage to do this task, and I will not post on this thread. Go.
How about a species of sentient arachno-avians who's main goal is subversion of neighboring species into fighting one another allowing this species to essentially sit back and take on threats piece-meal, if even necessary. An infusion of grimdark might be add by giving them a particular urge to orchestrate grand schemes of show with these "lesser" species, giving them in some whats a tzeentchian &slannesh bend to them if we needed to identify them as being susceptible to any particular Chaos Gods.. Biology wise they are about on par with a human in both strength and intelligence, and tech wise their mechanization have left them with a powerful enough economy as to have a fairly nicely developed tech base from trade - including an understanding of some second hand Imperial tech. Governance is handled through a synod, a strange cross of hereditary nobility ad elected official (think a limited pool of candidates, based off familial descent) with religious and mercantile over tones. These families retain power for themselves based on in jostling between themselves just as much an appeasing the masses through what ever current scheme is though appropriate.
Inwardly virulently xenophobic, it is a race that can "put on a nice face" to deal with other species (such as the IoM) when needed, they look wearily upon the Imperium of Man - having been an Eastern Fringe power for sometime (and far longer then the still idealistic Tau- and perhaps only saved from conquest by the outbreak of the Horus Heresy.) they look to buy themselves time to work up the means to change the balance of power in the Eastern Fringe, potentially by seeking ways to capitlize off the Tyranids - provided that they can fight them, the IoM, and any other threats off.
I dont know if that'll be totally unique, but i figure its a decent first go.
Let me rephrase chowderhead's statment:
Let us see an idea from you, hmm! If you think of a new race that is nor influenced by WHFB or copied off anyone in the Internet,AND that is not completely slowed. Tell us about it!
chowderhead13 wrote:Let us see an idea from you, hmm! If you think of a new race that is nor influenced by WHFB or copied off anyone in the Internet. Manage to do this task, and I will not post on this thread. Go.
How about a species of sentient arachno-avians who's main goal is subversion of neighboring species into fighting one another allowing this species to essentially sit back and take on threats piece-meal, if even necessary. An infusion of grimdark might be add by giving them a particular urge to orchestrate grand schemes of show with these "lesser" species, giving them in some whats a tzeentchian &slannesh bend to them if we needed to identify them as being susceptible to any particular Chaos Gods.. Biology wise they are about on par with a human in both strength and intelligence, and tech wise their mechanization have left them with a powerful enough economy as to have a fairly nicely developed tech base from trade - including an understanding of some second hand Imperial tech. Governance is handled through a synod, a strange cross of hereditary nobility ad elected official (think a limited pool of candidates, based off familial descent) with religious and mercantile over tones. These families retain power for themselves based on in jostling between themselves just as much an appeasing the masses through what ever current scheme is though appropriate.
Inwardly virulently xenophobic, it is a race that can "put on a nice face" to deal with other species (such as the IoM) when needed, they look wearily upon the Imperium of Man - having been an Eastern Fringe power for sometime (and far longer then the still idealistic Tau- and perhaps only saved from conquest by the outbreak of the Horus Heresy.) they look to buy themselves time to work up the means to change the balance of power in the Eastern Fringe, potentially by seeking ways to capitlize off the Tyranids - provided that they can fight them, the IoM, and any other threats off.
I dont know if that'll be totally unique, but i figure its a decent first go.
Let me rephrase chowderhead's statment:
Let us see an idea from you, hmm! If you think of a new race that is nor influenced by WHFB or copied off anyone in the Internet,AND that is not completely slowed. Tell us about it!
but seriously? arachno avians? that is just up.
There is nothing wrong with his concept, that was just an unfair and borderline abusive comment :(
However I could say he stole birdmen from the flash gorden movie, the book revelation space, egyptian mythology and god knows what else.
chowderhead13 wrote:Let us see an idea from you, hmm! If you think of a new race that is nor influenced by WHFB or copied off anyone in the Internet. Manage to do this task, and I will not post on this thread. Go.
How about a species of sentient arachno-avians who's main goal is subversion of neighboring species into fighting one another allowing this species to essentially sit back and take on threats piece-meal, if even necessary. An infusion of grimdark might be add by giving them a particular urge to orchestrate grand schemes of show with these "lesser" species, giving them in some whats a tzeentchian &slannesh bend to them if we needed to identify them as being susceptible to any particular Chaos Gods.. Biology wise they are about on par with a human in both strength and intelligence, and tech wise their mechanization have left them with a powerful enough economy as to have a fairly nicely developed tech base from trade - including an understanding of some second hand Imperial tech. Governance is handled through a synod, a strange cross of hereditary nobility ad elected official (think a limited pool of candidates, based off familial descent) with religious and mercantile over tones. These families retain power for themselves based on in jostling between themselves just as much an appeasing the masses through what ever current scheme is though appropriate.
Inwardly virulently xenophobic, it is a race that can "put on a nice face" to deal with other species (such as the IoM) when needed, they look wearily upon the Imperium of Man - having been an Eastern Fringe power for sometime (and far longer then the still idealistic Tau- and perhaps only saved from conquest by the outbreak of the Horus Heresy.) they look to buy themselves time to work up the means to change the balance of power in the Eastern Fringe, potentially by seeking ways to capitlize off the Tyranids - provided that they can fight them, the IoM, and any other threats off.
I dont know if that'll be totally unique, but i figure its a decent first go.
Let me rephrase chowderhead's statment:
Let us see an idea from you, hmm! If you think of a new race that is nor influenced by WHFB or copied off anyone in the Internet,AND that is not completely slowed. Tell us about it!
but seriously? arachno avians? that is just up.
There is nothing wrong with his concept, that was just an unfair and borderline abusive comment :(
However I could say he stole birdmen from the flash gorden movie, the book revelation space, egyptian mythology and god knows what else.
Geonosians... from starwars, bird bugs and there society and weapons seem very similar to what you described..... but thats a mute point.
The point is that GW shouldnt scrap alien races just because you dont like the fact that they took the idea of orks and elves from there fantasy theme. Why shouldnt they? People love orks and elves from fantasy, why not give them a science fiction twist and toss them into this game? O because you dont like it... ok GW oppoligize to your tiny minority of players who dont like orks and elves. Then replace the orcs and elves with bird spiders or tentecle brain monsters... please lol. Tyranids, tua, necron, hell even the DE all have backround far different from anything in warhammer fantasy.
Thank you for your oppinion but its hardly a direct transfer from fantasy and I think GW did a great job at capturing the xenos feeling for orks and eldar, but I dont think GW should sack them because a very small minority dont agree with the rest of us.
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Scott-S6 wrote:I'm just waiting for someone to accuse GW of ripping off blizzard....
Love that comic BTW really want to give that to every WoW fan that ever lived... then staple it to the CEO of blizzards forehead. There is insparation... and there is blatant stealing...
New Alien races would be nice, although we do have a good selection so far. They may be almalgamations of other things, but as said before isn't that the point?
You have a whole galaxy with an innumerable amount of star systems, make a race up. Use existing rule-sets and create your own look.
There are quite a few Alien races that are briefly mentioned that you could expand on.
lol, so you think introducing bugs is a brilliant idea to save warhammer from lame alien races? Oh brother...
Either way, GW creates races that appeal. How many would like to play huge worms in armor for example? Probably only very few.
GW could get inspired by many cool themes out there - there was an old game called Master of Orion II that had many nice races. Like the Sakkra or something, huge lizard-like guys. But if they release lizards now, they'll be called lame rip-offs of WFB.
I'd enjoy jelly-fish like aliens that use steam-punkish robots. But would you or others? Many want to be able to relate to their armies. A jellyfish...hmmm. besides, it's similar to the Tau. But if they should introduct a new race, they could make it a bit more alien, not a bad idea.
And many LOVE Orks. They're one of the biggest and most important factors of 40k. Are they silly compared to all the other grimdark stuff? Yeah. But many, like myself, enjoy them immensely. If you ever played Gorkamorka you'd think so too.
Carlovonsexron wrote:Of course, as a Loyal Imperial Citizen, EVERY XENOS MUST DIE, but in a generic sense I really dont like the fact that the Eldar/Dark Eldar, Necros, and (worst of all) Orks are just fantasy rip-offs. You cant even say that the necrons are just Terminator ripp offs, given that they have a vague Egyptian decoration vibe going on some of them, which seems like a pretty overt reference to tomb kings.
The Tyranids are alright - a bit too "Aliens" for my taste and a pretty blatant rip But the flip side of that is if the Orks had a little more "Predator" in their design they would look significantly more alien and sci-fi - which is something I really with 40k had more of. As it is, the Tau and the Space Marines get the awards for the greatest amount of inspired science fiction going into them, with both capitalizing off long established themes of either Grey Aliens + Japanese Mecha for the Tau (which is actually a pretty inspired combination), and the classic Heinlein Starship troopers for the all conquering Astartes. (Which doesnt really need to be unique, because its a fecking awesome concept that has a wonderful place in all sorts of sci-fi. Because if you dont have a starship trooper analogue, then your left with either crappy stormtroopers as mass infantry, or worse a bunch of starfleet officers who don't exactly inspire confidence in terms of imagining heavy ground assaults....)
But anway, I was just wondering if there were others who shared my view that I'd like a bunch more sci-fi and a lot less warhammer fantasy in 40k. It's a nonsense dream of course - nothing will come of it, and i dont mind how an army plays as being inspired by an analogue in the fantasy setting... but space orcs and space elfs and space undead suck big time. The tau shouldnt be the lone standard of a uniquely 40k alien race...
To be honest it sounds like your setting yourself up for disappointment if you want the core setting to change so drastically. Show me something original in modern sci fi settings that haven't borrowed from what has come before it. It happens in all Sci fi. Tyranids also whilst they have similarities with aliens xenomorphs are pretty different. Less specialised constructs and they don't fight in the open. They hunt in the shadows. Not very typical tyranid invasion tactics at all.
Lexx wrote:Tyranids also whilst they have similarities with aliens xenomorphs are pretty different. Less specialised constructs and they don't fight in the open. They hunt in the shadows. Not very typical tyranid invasion tactics at all.
apart from genestealers and lictors and a list of other tyranid types
I stopped reading this thread when the flaming started somewhere on page one, but the OP has a valid point. A point that is just as valid as the "why do you hate Tau" thread created a month or so back. Just as valid as the "Space vamps and space wearewolves are stupid" comments that have been made over and over again.
Personally, I feel like there is enough flavor to justify each of the races existing in this universe, and comparing 40k to Fantasy is like comparing a Granny smith apple to a golden delicious apple. They are just about the same thing.
I would like to see more development of each race, and GW has provided this in each new codex. While the origins of 40k may not be original (go figure) the end product will be as different and diverse as you can get. And if you don't like the alien races, well thank god for spess mahreens. Don't let anyone tell you your personal prefferences are wrong.
Lexx wrote:Tyranids also whilst they have similarities with aliens xenomorphs are pretty different. Less specialised constructs and they don't fight in the open. They hunt in the shadows. Not very typical tyranid invasion tactics at all.
apart from genestealers and lictors and a list of other tyranid types
I meant front line tyranid invasions. Not vanguard/infiltration organisms. The similarities with the aliens xenomorph ends when your talking about waves of bugs rushing their enemies in the open. Sorry if I wasn't more specific.
purplefood wrote:Everything is a rip off of everything else.
Current sci-fi and fantasy stuff steals from older stuff and older stuff steals from the ancient fairytales and legends.
Let me rephrase chowderhead's statment:
Let us see an idea from you, hmm! If you think of a new race that is nor influenced by WHFB or copied off anyone in the Internet,AND that is not completely slowed. Tell us about it!
but seriously? arachno avians? that is just up.
Sorry to disappoint you - but "real alien" life out there in the universe is extremely likely to have developed along paths that will seem extraordinarily " up" to us humans. There was recently discovered here on our own lovelly Terra a microorganism that laughs in the face of every other [known] terrestial form of life by using a material [Arsenic] that's a deadly poison as a replacement material for the basic building blocks of life, DNA. If creatures that strange whos basic biology of life differ from that of Human life here on Earth, chances are what out there in that big vast galaxy we call home is pretty up compared to our standards.
Of course, that's really your opinion, and you have every right to it, just like I do mine.
corpsesarefun wrote:
There is nothing wrong with his concept, that was just an unfair and borderline abusive comment :(
However I could say he stole birdmen from the flash gorden movie, the book revelation space, egyptian mythology and god knows what else.
Laughing God wrote:
Geonosians... from starwars, bird bugs and there society and weapons seem very similar to what you described..... but thats a mute point.
I'd say that the Tharks of the Barsoom setting are actually the main influence - an unconscious one at the time, but looking at the whole concept there are some similarities, just my critters sort of exaggerate on traits present in the tharks biologically, but are pretty whole sale different culturally. So they got meshed in there along with a slew of other influences. But like I've been trying to point out, I dont view meshing influences as bad at all - its just blatant unoriginal copy + paste jobs that I find rather uninspired, particularly from Warhammer Fantasy.
Mit Gas wrote:lol, so you think introducing bugs is a brilliant idea to save warhammer from lame alien races? Oh brother...
Not in specific: some one just asked me to create an alien race, so I attempted to as a sort of mind exercise. The race as its influences drawn from different things - but it certainly has no direct warhammer fantasy analogy, and the closest analogy I can think of the Tharks of Barsoom differ pretty wildly from them. But it was just a thought exercise more then a legit proposal for a 40K race. (Though if GW decided to buy the idea off me I wont be complaining )
Laughing God wrote:
The point is that GW shouldnt scrap alien races just because you dont like the fact that they took the idea of orks and elves from there fantasy theme. Why shouldnt they? People love orks and elves from fantasy, why not give them a science fiction twist and toss them into this game? O because you dont like it... ok GW oppoligize to your tiny minority of players who dont like orks and elves. Then replace the orcs and elves with bird spiders or tentecle brain monsters... please lol. Tyranids, tua, necron, hell even the DE all have backround far different from anything in warhammer fantasy.
Thank you for your oppinion but its hardly a direct transfer from fantasy and I think GW did a great job at capturing the xenos feeling for orks and eldar, but I dont think GW should sack them because a very small minority dont agree with the rest of us.
No need to try and make me feel special by saying I represent a tiny minority, I dont claim to represent anyones opinions other then my own (I don't mind the thought of being the only one who happens to have my opinion on things - though if other share my view or take a similar one, that's great!) I mean, I dont honestly expect GW to take notice of this thread and then suddenly crap any of the races - but I dont mind expressing my opinion about them either.
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ArbitorIan wrote:
When 40k started it was basically 'Warhammer in Space'. Hence Eldar become Space Elves, Squats were Space Dwarves, Orks were Space Orks (and were acutally names as such on the box). It was a LOT more jokey. Over time they've cut back on this, and used influences from a far wider pool than just traditional fantasy. However, when they decided that 'Space Dwarfs' was a silly concept and scrapped the Squats, there was a huge sense of outrage - people still feel hard done by today about the Squats, so you can see why they're loathe to scrap anything else.
Secondly, one of the great things about 40k IS that it borrows so heavily from other things. That's why models like the Praetorians were so popular - because people wanted to field a 'cool' Zulu-war style army without having to change game systems. One of the things GW encourage is the idea that ANY army is possible. You want to play WW1 Russians against Giant Space Mecha? You can. You want to play Exodite Elfs-in-Space vs Techno-zombie AdMech? You can. This is a good thing.
Lastly, you surely will have noticed how every sci-fi setting has the same basic archetypes for it's races? We have a hard time, as humans, empathising with anything that's totally unhuman, so we tend to invent alien races that are just like humans, but with one facet of their personality stronger. Human becomes a kind of 'default' setting. So, Star Trek has Humans, Angry Strong Warrior Humans (Klingons) and Peaceful Intelligent Long Lived Wise Humans (Vulcans). Babylon 5 has exactly the same, except now it's Menbari and those Russian guys. Traditional Fantasy has exactly the same in Orcs and Elves, or Dwarves and Elves, or whatever. The point is that, yes, they could have created a load of completely non-humanoid original races, but in order for people to be able to get into the game, their Floating Blob Aliens that are Intelligent Long Lived and Wise would still, basically, be doing the same job as elves/vulcans/eldar. The essential characters in a good story rarely change.
Lucid wrote:I stopped reading this thread when the flaming started somewhere on page one, but the OP has a valid point. A point that is just as valid as the "why do you hate Tau" thread created a month or so back. Just as valid as the "Space vamps and space wearewolves are stupid" comments that have been made over and over again.
Personally, I feel like there is enough flavor to justify each of the races existing in this universe, and comparing 40k to Fantasy is like comparing a Granny smith apple to a golden delicious apple. They are just about the same thing.
I would like to see more development of each race, and GW has provided this in each new codex. While the origins of 40k may not be original (go figure) the end product will be as different and diverse as you can get. And if you don't like the alien races, well thank god for spess mahreens. Don't let anyone tell you your personal prefferences are wrong.
Now these are some well crafted opinions that I can muse over for a while
I like that 40K started out as a transplantation of the archetypal fantasy races into a far future space age setting (Humans, Elves=Eldar, Dwarfs=Squats, Orcs=Orks) but over the years, it's evolved further into it's own thing. The Imperium of Man being heavily influenced by the medieval Catholic church is cool. I'd say that Tyranids, Necrons & Tau have all distanced themselves from the WFB origins of the game.
I like playing Tau vs Tyranid games especially as it feels real sci-fi esque to me. but I play 40K because I like science fantasy. It's he same reasons i read 'Dune' or watch 'star Wars' or what have you.
Carlovonsexron wrote:Of course, as a Loyal Imperial Citizen, EVERY XENOS MUST DIE, but in a generic sense I really dont like the fact that the Eldar/Dark Eldar, Necros, and (worst of all) Orks are just fantasy rip-offs. You cant even say that the necrons are just Terminator ripp offs, given that they have a vague Egyptian decoration vibe going on some of them, which seems like a pretty overt reference to tomb kings.
The Tyranids are alright - a bit too "Aliens" for my taste and a pretty blatant rip But the flip side of that is if the Orks had a little more "Predator" in their design they would look significantly more alien and sci-fi - which is something I really with 40k had more of. As it is, the Tau and the Space Marines get the awards for the greatest amount of inspired science fiction going into them, with both capitalizing off long established themes of either Grey Aliens + Japanese Mecha for the Tau (which is actually a pretty inspired combination), and the classic Heinlein Starship troopers for the all conquering Astartes. (Which doesnt really need to be unique, because its a fecking awesome concept that has a wonderful place in all sorts of sci-fi. Because if you dont have a starship trooper analogue, then your left with either crappy stormtroopers as mass infantry, or worse a bunch of starfleet officers who don't exactly inspire confidence in terms of imagining heavy ground assaults....)
But anway, I was just wondering if there were others who shared my view that I'd like a bunch more sci-fi and a lot less warhammer fantasy in 40k. It's a nonsense dream of course - nothing will come of it, and i dont mind how an army plays as being inspired by an analogue in the fantasy setting... but space orcs and space elfs and space undead suck big time. The tau shouldnt be the lone standard of a uniquely 40k alien race...
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA HAvE YOu EVER SEEn one of the original tyranids??!??!
THey looked like deformed people with funny weapons XD
I always thought 40k being fantasy in space was kind of the whole point. Part of the appeal for me is seeing all these fantasy and sci fi tropes turned up to 11, mashed together, and thrown into a universe full of grimdark.
If you're wondering whether 40k is right for you ask yourself this :"Do I like elves/orks/dark elves/zombies/werewolves/vampires/daemons? Do I think those things would be better in SPACE AND WITH 10X MORE GRIMDARK AND EXPLOSIONS?!??!"
If you answered yes, then 40k might be the game for you.
Power Armor and use of the term Space Marine in the same book.
If you're going to try and mis-read my intentions like that, I might as well point out that the in fluff name of the Space Marines, the "Adeptus Astartes" is quite unique. And that "power armor" is about a generic a concept as "space travel".
There are of course something you cant get around - but for most of those standard sci-fi tropes GW has made the Human factions a highly unique, distinguished entity/group of entities - the IoM and all its various sub facets, despite all its similarities and various influences cannot be easily confused with any other fictional entity. The same cannot be said for its alien factions, and i find that disappointing enough to not mind it if new alien factions were introduced -either along side, or in replacement of some of the existing ones.
Power Armor and use of the term Space Marine in the same book.
If you're going to try and mis-read my intentions like that, I might as well point out that the in fluff name of the Space Marines, the "Adeptus Astartes" is quite unique. And that "power armor" is about a generic a concept as "space travel".
There are of course something you cant get around - but for most of those standard sci-fi tropes GW has made the Human factions a highly unique, distinguished entity/group of entities - the IoM and all its various sub facets, despite all its similarities and various influences cannot be easily confused with any other fictional entity. The same cannot be said for its alien factions, and i find that disappointing enough to not mind it if new alien factions were introduced -either along side, or in replacement of some of the existing ones.
Well they do have alot of fluff for some of the alien races and i wouldent go as far as "and think they should scrapped"
Carlovonsexron wrote:GW has made the Human factions a highly unique
not really seeing as 50% of it is directly taken from human historical, religious and cultural groups, 40% is taken from other works of science fiction (dune), with 10% true originality (even the tech priest of mars are influenced by scientism, a religion in the foundation series by Isaac Asimov)
Carlovonsexron wrote:despite all its similarities and various influences cannot be easily confused with any other fictional entity. The same cannot be said for its alien factions
they could be easily confused as direct rips not 'similar and influenced pieces', and 'confused with any other fictional entity' how stupid do you have to be to get confused between eldar and high elves or LoTR elves or germanic elves? even a young child can tell the difference (its like saying you can't tell the difference between rambo and rocky)
Carlovonsexron wrote:i find that disappointing enough to not mind it if new alien factions were introduced -either along side, or in replacement of some of the existing ones.
replace an existing race, that would a very stupid move on GW part, it was doable during the trasition after rogue trader, but know it would alot of people off, they could just keep adding allies to the tau, or make mercenary race units (gw has alot of those they could develop)
corpsesarefun wrote:How are necrons anything like tomb kings other in the most basic and broad stereotype? they are undead with egyptian theme and that is about it...
I concur... aren't the Tomb Kings a little more disposable?
In regards to the 'aliens' in general, I think they're great... I used to not like the Eldar/Dark Eldar but they are growing on me.
not really seeing as 50% of it is directly taken from human historical, religious and cultural groups, 40% is taken from other works of science fiction (dune), with 10% true originality (even the tech priest of mars are influenced by scientism, a religion in the foundation series by Isaac Asimov)
I think those proportions are pretty substantially unbased on anything but opinion. I wont hazard with percentages, because I'd just be making them up, but the entire idea of the horus heresy splitting the galaxy that would be indisputably human dominated if not for that, the primarchs, the Astartes legions, (and the dividing up up into Astartes chapters post heresy), galactic inquisition based around ACTUAL deamon hunting rather then just solely for rooting out political dissidents, ect...
Perhaps these all do pop up prior to GW, but off the top of my head I certainly cant place them in any other fiction - and those are some of the primary pillars around which the rest of the fluff is based upon.
BluntmanDC wrote:
they could be easily confused as direct rips not 'similar and influenced pieces', and 'confused with any other fictional entity' how stupid do you have to be to get confused between eldar and high elves or LoTR elves or germanic elves? even a young child can tell the difference (its like saying you can't tell the difference between rambo and rocky)
Who said anything about LoTR? "Confusion" does not mean litterlll being able to not be able to tell the difference between two things, its an alitteration to not being so based on something that someone who is not well versed in an understanding of the subject can tell its influences.
A layman on the street will not be able to tell you more then perhaps 3 of the dozens of influences that seems to have gone into the IoM. Orks by contrast? Fairly obvious nowadays. And per the eldar, I'm sure showing a few pics of what the eldar look like under those helmets will be a dead give away for space elfs.
BluntmanDC wrote:
replace an existing race, that would a very stupid move on GW part, it was doable during the trasition after rogue trader, but know it would alot of people off, they could just keep adding allies to the tau, or make mercenary race units (gw has alot of those they could develop)
I dont actually think it will happen, or that even any other then me wouldnt mind it happening - but I certainly wouldnt mind it, and that was my point. I'm not pretending to speak on behalf of you, or anyone else.
not really seeing as 50% of it is directly taken from human historical, religious and cultural groups, 40% is taken from other works of science fiction (dune), with 10% true originality (even the tech priest of mars are influenced by scientism, a religion in the foundation series by Isaac Asimov)
I think those proportions are pretty substantially unbased on anything but opinion. I wont hazard with percentages, because I'd just be making them up, but the entire idea of the horus heresy splitting the galaxy that would be indisputably human dominated if not for that, the primarchs, the Astartes legions, (and the dividing up up into Astartes chapters post heresy), galactic inquisition based around ACTUAL deamon hunting rather then just solely for rooting out political dissidents, ect...
Perhaps these all do pop up prior to GW, but off the top of my head I certainly cant place them in any other fiction - and those are some of the primary pillars around which the rest of the fluff is based upon.
the horus heresy is basically the fall of the roman empire
The Horus Heresy is a play off of the Fall of Lucifer in the Bible (forgive me, I don't know which part, probably Genesis) The Primarchs are depicted as the Emperor's angels, and Lucifer used to be God's Chosen.
Also, the DE are not minuscule. They have a larger population than all the craftworlds, and could probably take down a race like the Tau if they banded together and wanted to.
Shakespeare once said that nothing anyone could say would be original. It's all been done before. Have you seen Starship Troopers? That's the Imperial Guard and the Tyranids right there. Have you seen Dune? The Imperial Palace was influenced by THEIR OWN Imperial Palace, and the commissars/lords were based on the aesthetic of the Emperor.
crazypsyko666 wrote:Shakespeare once said that nothing anyone could say would be original. It's all been done before. Have you seen Starship Troopers? That's the Imperial Guard and the Tyranids right there. Have you seen Dune? The Imperial Palace was influenced by THEIR OWN Imperial Palace, and the commissars/lords were based on the aesthetic of the Emperor.
God forbid people be influenced and inspired by the works of others. Oh the humanity!
bigmek35 wrote:can a mod lock this flame thread please?
this is worse than the IG rapeing eldar thread
*ducks
I have to disagree. It's started to become better. If people would read the whole thread instead of making a quick BS assumption, based of the first post and the title, maybe more would be accomplished. Mods, please continue to let the thread go, but be diligent in your duties (as you always are!).
To the OP, I admit that when I first started, I agreed with your opinion. Everything is something I can quickly and easily find in other Sci-Fi/Fantasy. From Starcraft - Eldar/DE (Templar/Dark Templar), Tyranids (Zerg), Orks (Orcs), etc. It was a running joke for me, referring to my DE's player army as the "Dark Templar", and asking if 'Zeratul" (Vect) was gonna show up this game. I worried if I had my detector units to spot the permanently invisible Templars.
But it passed. Yeah, maybe Eldar are very similar to Elves in space. But I read their fluff. Every word - from the big early fluff section, to each unit's individual entry, to small sidebars here and there. I fell in love with it. Now I don't think of Eldar as Elves in space - I think of them as Eldar. DE are DE, not Dark Templars. I give my soldiers' lives for the Craftworld - not Auir (High Templar homeworld).
True, the IG does have some of the best fluff. I also really liked their fluff first time I read it (prompted me to get IG, along with a few other reasons). Marines have good fluff, and I liked Tau a ton (my first race when I first started). The idea of an entire race selflessly giving of themselves to aid their fellow Tau, under the watchful and honest eye of the Ethereals - who only wish the best for the Tau (in my opinion). The different castes give of themselves in their prescribed role, and they advance pragmatically - advancing technology, open to new ideas, and willing to adapt to survive.
You don't like the fact that you can relate them to other things in fantasy to easily (as opposed to sci-fi, if I understand). That's fine. You're entitled to your opinion, and yours is no more right or wrong than mine. It's an interesting point and definitely a new one for me.
I mentioned Eldar, my new (permanent) race. Just to say, the Orcs I kill in Dungeons and Dragons with Aliza Cornet, my college-trained witch seeking revenge against the man who killed her family, are very different from the Orks I kill with my Striking Scorpions after tearing them to shreds with Dire Avengers.
EDIT: Just to confirm, I'm male. I just play a woman in D&D. Just saying.
crazypsyko666 wrote:Shakespeare once said that nothing anyone could say would be original. It's all been done before. Have you seen Starship Troopers? That's the Imperial Guard and the Tyranids right there. Have you seen Dune? The Imperial Palace was influenced by THEIR OWN Imperial Palace, and the commissars/lords were based on the aesthetic of the Emperor.
God forbid people be influenced and inspired by the works of others. Oh the humanity!
I know, right? Who knows, David Jaffe may just make a game about Greek mythology. OR, we might get another Space Marines update. *GASP*.
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TheRedArmy wrote:
bigmek35 wrote:can a mod lock this flame thread please?
this is worse than the IG rapeing eldar thread
*ducks
I have to disagree. It's started to become better. If people would read the whole thread instead of making a quick BS assumption, based of the first post and the title, maybe more would be accomplished. Mods, please continue to let the thread go, but be diligent in your duties (as you always are!).
To the OP, I admit that when I first started, I agreed with your opinion. Everything is something I can quickly and easily find in other Sci-Fi/Fantasy. From Starcraft - Eldar/DE (Templar/Dark Templar), Tyranids (Zerg), Orks (Orcs), etc. It was a running joke for me, referring to my DE's player army as the "Dark Templar", and asking if 'Zeratul" (Vect) was gonna show up this game. I worried if I had my detector units to spot the permanently invisible Templars.
But it passed. Yeah, maybe Eldar are very similar to Elves in space. But I read their fluff. Every word - from the big early fluff section, to each unit's individual entry, to small sidebars here and there. I fell in love with it. Now I don't think of Eldar as Elves in space - I think of them as Eldar. DE are DE, not Dark Templars. I give my soldiers' lives for the Craftworld - not Auir (High Templar homeworld).
True, the IG does have some of the best fluff. I also really liked their fluff first time I read it (prompted me to get IG, along with a few other reasons). Marines have good fluff, and I liked Tau a ton (my first race when I first started). The idea of an entire race selflessly giving of themselves to aid their fellow Tau, under the watchful and honest eye of the Ethereals - who only wish the best for the Tau (in my opinion). The different castes give of themselves in their prescribed role, and they advance pragmatically - advancing technology, open to new ideas, and willing to adapt to survive.
You don't like the fact that you can relate them to other things in fantasy to easily (as opposed to sci-fi, if I understand). That's fine. You're entitled to your opinion, and yours is no more right or wrong than mine. It's an interesting point and definitely a new one for me.
I mentioned Eldar, my new (permanent) race. Just to say, the Orcs I kill in Dungeons and Dragons with Aliza Cornet, my college-trained witch seeking revenge against the man who killed her family, are very different from the Orks I kill with my Striking Scorpions after tearing them to shreds with Dire Avengers.
EDIT: Just to confirm, I'm male. I just play a woman in D&D. Just saying.
I am acutely aware of the level of nerd rage on the subject of Starcraft and Warhammer, but Warhammer actually came first, including all of the races Starcraft was inspired by ('nids, eldar, DE, SM, etc.) I know it sounds like a petty argument, but you wouldn't believe the gak that I hear about it. In fact, Blizzard was supposed to be working on a GW videogame before the plug got pulled. Starcraft was the result.
crazypsyko666 wrote:I am acutely aware of the level of nerd rage on the subject of Starcraft and Warhammer, but Warhammer actually came first, including all of the races Starcraft was inspired by ('nids, eldar, DE, SM, etc.) I know it sounds like a petty argument, but you wouldn't believe the gak that I hear about it. In fact, Blizzard was supposed to be working on a GW videogame before the plug got pulled. Starcraft was the result.
Didn't mean to say that Starcraft came before Warhammer. I simply related it to SC due to knowing that first.
Well, inspired by this thread, and being bored, I spent the last hour coming up with an idea for an alien race that isn't WFB based, and I think, reasonably non staid. I present The Communion of the Core for your discussion, starting with a little bit of fluff.
Across unimaginable distances, messages flash, born of light that is not light; sending not words, but knowing. The Communion of the Core, all it's countless facets thinking, shifting, burning their timeless existences into the infinite void, pauses for an immeasurable moment to ponder.
It's innumerable minds branch off into a hundred thousand debates, arguments, philosophical discussions and even a minor war. Their non linear thoughts flash back and forth for an age that lasts picoseconds, and then Communion is restored. The decision reached, though complex and multi layered to the point of incomprehensibility, would appear thus to a lesser intelligence.
* Collective 17334191 has approached the detected Core-Lowspace bleed. Analysis indicates an ongoing Magnitude Three Event.
Further Analysis shows widespread presence of bioform sentient conduits. Lowspace breaches and bleeds occurring with alarming frequency. Likelihood of systemic bleed-over leading to High Magnitude Event approaches certainty.
Further noted are bioform units belonging to Species 919, indicating near approach of Vanguard Swarms, with a high probability that Infestation Swarm follows. Situation dictates sterilization. Collectives 17334193 through 17334221 dispatched.*
The Communion of the Core is a vast, many galaxy spanning entity. It is made up of a thoroughly large number of Facets, which are basic intelligences. These Facets form together into Shards, which are both composites and separate intelligences of greater power. Shards are subsumed into Actualities, which form into a Collective. Collectives can form into Paradigms, and they all make up the Communion.
It is important to note that while they exist as part of a larger whole, each facet, as well as all composites at all levels exist as discrete conscious constructs. They are nearly incomprehensible to colloidal, linear beings, but also protect the universe from disruptions to real, or core space.
In their eternal, galaxy spanning consciousness, the unfolding of the universe is akin to a symphony played out by the interactions of time and energy, and the bleedover of lowspace (the warp) is like nails on a chalkboard.
So, from a more basic standpoint, they are living crystal beings that transcend mortal morality and logic, are capable of constant and instant mental and physical change, and are vastly powerful.
Luckily for our galaxy, they lack any real means to traverse the space between galaxies in anything less than geological frames of time, and they are rather distant, and they are simply not that "good" at war from a biological standpoint. They either tend to copy basic forms of combat from those they encounter, use slow but ultimately unstoppable swarm tactics, or in the case most germane to the current discussion, make use of Praetors.
It is important to note that the Communion has, under their stewardship, hundreds of more "conventional" races, and at any time, a Collective will likely have a number of them traveling along with them, who wish to get out and see the universe for any number of reasons. The Collective will furnish this by creating a living area out of themselves in the physical center of the Collective, and allowing their passengers to basically do as they wish within.
In circumstances such as they find themselves, a lone Collective against a galaxy for the forseeable future, they may enlist the aid of a more warlike being, creating a Praetor. They will pass along tactical advise and such (although the Communion would never let them endanger themselves in the vulgar necessity of combat). The Praetors chosen by Collective 17334191 are mainly of a warlike race that favors close ranged warfare and ground based fighting. The Collective has split off into Actualities to facilitate the sterilization order, and the Praetors of the Actualities are given significant influence (allowing the Actualities to be given more personality).
Allright, so that's just a bit of brainstorming, i can flesh it out if people like it.
Monster Rain wrote:I always thought that part of the charm of 40k was that it had all sorts of little inside jokes and references from the sci fi genre.
.
I always thought that people enjoyed playing zee-nose because they liked playing the mirror faction in fantasy. That's how GW got people into 40k in the early days. I think it still works.
I can see your point of view, but the game would be pretty dull without our zee-nose friends to push around
Carlovonsexron wrote:Of course, as a Loyal Imperial Citizen, EVERY XENOS MUST DIE, but in a generic sense I really dont like the fact that the Eldar/Dark Eldar, Necros, and (worst of all) Orks are just fantasy rip-offs.
Wait...aren't space orks just a future version of fantasy orcs? Like a more 'evolved' society?
Monster Rain wrote:I always thought that part of the charm of 40k was that it had all sorts of little inside jokes and references from the sci fi genre.
.
I always thought that people enjoyed playing zee-nose because they liked playing the mirror faction in fantasy. That's how GW got people into 40k in the early days. I think it still works.
It might surprise you to learn that there are in fact people who got into 40k WITHOUT playing that square based game first. I tried fantasy AFTER already playing 40k for 2 years, and I know I'm not the only one in my social group.
Some of us just like playing the aliens because we're sick to death of playing fascist human forces in SF miniatures games again (or wanted a change). Many of the human forces in the other games have human factions as bad if not worse than the Imperium of man.
Monster Rain wrote:I always thought that part of the charm of 40k was that it had all sorts of little inside jokes and references from the sci fi genre.
.
I always thought that people enjoyed playing zee-nose because they liked playing the mirror faction in fantasy. That's how GW got people into 40k in the early days. I think it still works.
It might surprise you to learn that there are in fact people who got into 40k WITHOUT playing that square based game first. I tried fantasy AFTER already playing 40k for 2 years, and I know I'm not the only one in my social group.
Some of us just like playing the aliens because we're sick to death of playing fascist human forces in SF miniatures games again (or wanted a change). Many of the human forces in the other games have human factions as bad if not worse than the Imperium of man.
The Imperium of Man makes every fascist regime ever look nice. I call BS.
Klawz wrote:The Horus Heresy is a play off of the Fall of Lucifer in the Bible (forgive me, I don't know which part, probably Genesis) The Primarchs are depicted as the Emperor's angels, and Lucifer used to be God's Chosen..
Thats not form the bible at all actually, so even if you looked for it there you wouldn't find it.
I always thought of the Hersey as mix of a few things, the betrayal of Julius Ceaser by Brutus, in terms of the close company kept, and as for the civil war, there are too many to list that you could look. As for the Primarchs I thought about the four generals of Alexander, the ones who carried on in his steed, and while the Primarchs may not fit exactly it would fit, after all if the golden throne were to breakdown and the emperor of man was to finally die then the the IoM would no doubt divide in the same fashion as the Grecian empire of long ago.
Depending on how literally you take the poetic language, the fall of Lucifer is touched upon in Isaiah and the Book of Revelation. It's obviously more covered in the decidedly non-canonical Paradise lost though. And I don't think anyone would doubt that GW hasn't used the Bible as some inspiration for its mythos (much like most western mythology in the last few centuries)
Just look at the names of some of the Space Marine/Chaos Space Marine special characters if you doubt that. I'd say the Heresy certainly blends in the fall of Lucifer together with the historical collapse and stagnation of many historical societies and empires. The Roman Empire is what springs most readily to mind, simply because it's probably the most widely known historical Empire. There is also a lot of the Holy Roman Empire in there as well (the Crusades = Great Crusade) and the Age of Strife being roughly equivalent to the Dark Ages.
As a prior poster said, the big appeal of 40K's fluff 9in my case) is because it takes a variety of mythical, religious and historical sources, whacks them in a blender and turns the old grim darkness up to 11. I like the historical allusions and names, and spotting them in the background material. (Naming 2 obvious ones, Horus being from the Egyptian pantheon, and Lord Solar Macharius being Alexander the Great in SPAAAACE!)
chaplaingrabthar wrote:Depending on how literally you take the poetic language, the fall of Lucifer is touched upon in Isaiah and the Book of Revelation. It's obviously more covered in the decidedly non-canonical Paradise lost though.
I agree with all your points but this one I guess I must agree and disagree with various parts. And it does go back to language. The name Lucifer is a Latin term meaning "morning star" and Isaiah was written in Hebrew so a Latin word would not likely be found there. (There is more to it than this however.) And in Revelation it was speaking of Jesus.
Jesus said the name Belezebub not Lucifer when he was speaking of the ruler of the demons (aka Satan). Even the fall as you mention, found in some translations of Isaiah (but not all) or more popularly the old poem Dantes Inferno with its circles or levels of Hell, and this does indeed radiate with how the Warp seems to work
But this is not the place for this kind of religious discussion. However we can see from this little bit of discussion why the blender can work so well for 40k, there is just so many ideas and sure most are retreads of one kind or another but hey...they all duke it out with dice. And it creates a thinking environment if you want to look into the back story behind the back story.
And if you don't like the aliens go play a game without them. And see how much "idea theft/ idea retread" is really happening. Or go play a Star Wars game where there is a Facist Human government ruling the lesser creatures of the galaxy....
Klawz wrote:The Horus Heresy is a play off of the Fall of Lucifer in the Bible (forgive me, I don't know which part, probably Genesis) The Primarchs are depicted as the Emperor's angels, and Lucifer used to be God's Chosen..
Thats not form the bible at all actually, so even if you looked for it there you wouldn't find it.
I always thought of the Hersey as mix of a few things, the betrayal of Julius Ceaser by Brutus, in terms of the close company kept, and as for the civil war, there are too many to list that you could look. As for the Primarchs I thought about the four generals of Alexander, the ones who carried on in his steed, and while the Primarchs may not fit exactly it would fit, after all if the golden throne were to breakdown and the emperor of man was to finally die then the the IoM would no doubt divide in the same fashion as the Grecian empire of long ago.
Those are just my two cents
Hmm! Interesting.
Even then, Horus (lucifer) refuses to bow before the bureaucracy (mankind) that followed him. In fact, his angels felt they were above mere "mortals", and pride is the catalysis for Sin.
Seriously Tolkien did the whole "evil spider" thing ages ago, and so now your right back where we started: copying tolkien-esque fantasy tropes as inspiration.
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MisterMoon wrote:I'm pretty sure that if 40k came out today...
-we wouldn't have Orks, or at least they'd look a lot different, and would certainly be called something less DnDesk.
-'nids are Aliens rips but who cares, and they wouldn't change at all.
-Space Marines would be called something else
-Eldar are ok, but the story is a little tired, but they are fine.
-Kudos for whoever wrote the Tau up.
-Chaos theme is really good too.
-Necrons should have a much larger roll
-DE are finnaly getting some much needed attention, I'm glad GW didn't scrap them. They would be huge in a world if 40k came out today.
I'm pretty sure if 40K came out today it would look just like Halo. Also everyone would ride rocket skateboards and high-five constantly to a hip alt rock soundtrack...
Monster Rain wrote:I always thought that part of the charm of 40k was that it had all sorts of little inside jokes and references from the sci fi genre.
i agree with this, but also 40k puts its own spin on things and really makes each xeno race its own distinct group which can be seen to come from an archtype but transends that in a lot of ways.
Monster Rain wrote:I always thought that part of the charm of 40k was that it had all sorts of little inside jokes and references from the sci fi genre.
i agree with this, but also 40k puts its own spin on things and really makes each xeno race its own distinct group which can be seen to come from an archtype but transends that in a lot of ways.
I don't see it transcending any of it but I agree that it really puts its own slant into the mix. 40K a space fantasy, I think the Gothic art that is scattered throughout the games materials is what gives the game its mood, and considering the mention of Starship Troopers earlier, the IoM is very similar to that government (just look at the way the commissars and the Imperial Guard Operate) but the difference is the art for 40k that Starship Troopers didn't have until the 90's. And by that time Power Armor was a common thing to have in games and books for human soldiers in space. It's just like the Lord of The Rings affect on Fantasy stories.
People don't generally link D&D to LOTRs except to say that they are fantasy even thought one could not exist without the other. How or better yet why? Because D&D has separated it's story and mythology enough from LOTRs that people who pay attention to those things acknowledge the source but can see beyond it.
The same can be said for 40K, it utilizes the same basic races, slaps on some new names sure, Eldar instead of Elf or Elve depending, dark Eldar instead of Drow, okay....but then it shifts, the Elvish folk of fantasy never achieves intergalactic space travel so this kind of shifts that fantasy, what if it had played out that these cultures had done that, of course they all couldn't have shared a world to do it as they do it fantasy so now we get to explore new ways to look at these creatures.
So is it transcending, no but it is different and so I think that some one would be hard pressed to create new aliens without drawing from some already existing Mythos.
Well, again (And while I hate doing it, I'm considering amending my opening post to clarify the point) it isnt broad influences I don't like - its not even specific influences i dont like, its just that I dont find Orks and Eldar particularly compelling or convincing compared the IoM which even in some of its more over the top moments still has so much great back ground to it that allows us to over look its occasional silliness with suspension of disbelief.
Why? Because the IoM takes all thes influences that were incorporated into it, and makes something unique out of them, by casting them in a particular light unique to 40K (or at least a light originating with 40km if others have copied it now - and no that's not a reference to chapterhouse.) including some very nice pieces of rather original fliction - even if that in itsef is the application of certain ideas never before cast into the light fo science fiction. (Jesus is an immortal warlord who has guided mankind for millennia popping up as all sorts of heroic emperor figures from Alexander the Great to Constantine to any other warlord who conspicuously has a love of gold, Religion-Empire, and eagles (for the connection to Alexander, he was supposedly the son of Zeus, whose own symbol was an Eagle.) and then the whole primarch thing - sure it has parallels (in a way) with Alexanders generals, but its a loose fit. I really dont know of anything quite like the primarchs out there in fiction outside of 40K.
But lets move on from that. I don't mind well crafted fiction and design based on or incorporating earlier work - its inevitable. It's really just that there could have been a much better job done with races like the Eldar and Orks, whom just reek of being space elves and space orcs.
And while 40K may have started off as fantasy in space, with the squatting of the squats and the introduction of the Tau, I don't hold the opinion that GW is really continuing to follow that line of development.
The Eldar and the Orks are here to stay - I understand that perfectly. Those of you who have some strange moral outrage at my opinion can sleep safe and sound that I do not herald the beginning of the end for the races you so soundly love. I don't begrudge you for your enthusiasm for these races at all.
But lets face reality here - 40k is fiction. It's fiction that has a history of development, a history of change, and despite it being at its heart a miniatures game has matured into far more then that - video games, loads of books, internet memes, and now even a straight to DvD movie under its belt.
But its a fictional setting - and it should be critiqued like one.
Of course GW hasn't been following the line of development, the timeline has been stuck for idk how long lol. Well and as for ork and eldar being space orks and space elfs, well they are isn't that awesome! lol but seriously there's a massive universe open in 40k to create a race that hasn't even been discovered yet, make your own story that's why 40k is so great. And well since there bankin right now guess GW must have hit alot of peps funny bones with just moving fantasy races to 40k
so, that means the Space Marines have to go to... they're a rip off of many sci-fi genres... oh, and Imperial Guard, so, who's left Tau? oops, a rip-off of anime/manga styed sci-fi. congratulations, you have just ended 40K by showing that it has no originality at all...
moron...
Someone seems to not have the conception that my main critique is with the influence of warhammer fantasy in 40k, but of course calling me a 'moron' while ignoring much of what I say must be a true example of skill and calculated logical argument...
Except oh wait. It isnt.
I dont have a problem with influence- Influence is good an inevitable. But the whole sale adoption of fantasy tropes is lame.
I had always thought that the fact there were so many races from the fantasy version just hinted at the fact all of the races eventually went spacebourne, thats what I liked to think anyways.
Don't know much at all about the 40k background, but it seems to be like the universe is so ancient, the aliens that are "rip-offs" of other races could just have evolved from those races or something.
The Primarchs and the Emperor are not based on Alexander. They are a hodgepodge of Roman, Christian, and other cultures. Lord Solar Mecharius is 40K's Alexander the Great.
Klawz wrote:The Primarchs and the Emperor are not based on Alexander. They are a hodgepodge of Roman, Christian, and other cultures. Lord Solar Mecharius is 40K's Alexander the Great.
No one was disagreeing, those elements were simply mentioned as they were easy to detect.
Shenra wrote:The OP failed to include Daemons in his original assessment..what do you think?
OP has read enough of the horus heresy series to understand that "daemon" is just a word to help conceptualize what the denizens in the warp represent to human beings.
Shenra wrote:The OP failed to include Daemons in his original assessment..what do you think?
OP has read enough of the horus heresy series to understand that "daemon" is just a word to help conceptualize what the denizens in the warp represent to human beings.
Of course they are just as much a take on other forms of ideas as well, whether they be the demons found in the bible or any other number of fallen creature/angel with "god-like" abilities or powers from a vast number of sources... heck consider another fantasy example, even the orcs from LOTRs were once Elves that had fallen and were twisted by evil, so can be said of the warp daemons.... and look at the inquisitors who hunt them, how many things can you name that they possibly remind you of, even the Gestapo come to mind...albiet a bit extreme but...it fits in certain degrees.. "even those with nothing to hide have something to fear"
Even if you made the 40k world more "sci fi" you could still claim that there is a rip somewhere...so what if there is a half cybernetic half humanoid computerized race....ooops that's the borg from star trek. What about giant sasquatch looking...oh never mind that's wookies from star wars...how about lizard like chameleon warriors...oh wait that's a rip of predators.
Everything is a rip of something else. Even your space marines are a rip of starship troopers sort of as you point out.
I prefer to think of it more like this. Eldar aren't really elves...they are just slender humanoid spacefarers that reminded the humans of elves so that's what they were named. Orks are nothing like orcs from fantasy...last time I played D and D killing one didn't result in spores making more. They just look something like what ancient humans referred to as orks. Same goes for "denizens of the warp" and so forth. Likely, humans will name them something they resemble that we are already familiar with.
And if 40k is nothing but a futuristic fantasy version...then let's get a Draconic army!!! Come on, what would be cooler than dragons? You could have flying ones, tank like ones, fast attack beastlike ones, and troops would be easy. Not only that, but the models could be ridiculously awesome.
Personally, I find the human chapters pretty boring. The tanks 40000 years in the future look just like the ones in Afghanistan right now for crying out loud! Are you telling me that the tank hasn't been redesigned since then? And all the marines look the same...different ability here, different color scheme there...add a couple historical figures who made a valiant stand and all of a sudden you have a whole new army? There's no comparing daemons to orks to nids to eldar. That's where all the variety is. But I know if I play a Marine or Guard army...there's gonna be tanks...and buff guys with guns...maybe a chaplain or a librarian...and maybe a guy in a mech suit. Yawn. Which chapter did you say you were? Oh nevermind...doesn't matter, you're all the same in different outfits.
KamikazeCanuck
That's Movie Starship Troopers. The book is more power armoured.
Exactly, power suits with jump jets, flamers, talking bombs, and tactical nuke missile launchers for the sergeants. They are an elite fighting force, not a bunch of raw recruit with flak armor and pop guns. They have psykers too.
KamikazeCanuck
That's Movie Starship Troopers. The book is more power armoured.
Exactly, power suits with jump jets, flamers, talking bombs, and tactical nuke missile launchers for the sergeants. They are an elite fighting force, not a bunch of raw recruit with flak armor and pop guns. They have psykers too.
They're also humans, something Space Marines quite clearly aren't, what with their drooling acid and dozens of superfluous organs (almost as many as they get codices!) and all, and to elaborate on what you said: their powered armor makes Space Marines look like hemophiliac infants.
The only similarities between them are the aesthetics and the fact that both are giant mary sues, though the Starship Trooper marines manage to be tolerable while being so, rather than just flat out ridiculous.
KamikazeCanuck
That's Movie Starship Troopers. The book is more power armoured.
Exactly, power suits with jump jets, flamers, talking bombs, and tactical nuke missile launchers for the sergeants. They are an elite fighting force, not a bunch of raw recruit with flak armor and pop guns. They have psykers too.
They're also humans, something Space Marines quite clearly aren't, what with their drooling acid and dozens of superfluous organs (almost as many as they get codices!) and all, and to elaborate on what you said: their powered armor makes Space Marines look like hemophiliac infants.
The only similarities between them are the aesthetics and the fact that both are giant mary sues, though the Starship Trooper marines manage to be tolerable while being so, rather than just flat out ridiculous.
Can't argue with you there , but IMO they still resemble the SM more that the IG.
You got me thinking that most of the 'Space Marines' in science fiction aren't super modified like 40kSM. Sure some of them have extensive biological modifications to make them taller, stronger, and smarter, but 40kSM seem (fairly) original with their total body overhaul. They're different that Spartan II's - modified humans (Halo), Colonial Marines - plain ol' humans (Aliens), Starship Troopers - plain ol' humans (book), Doom - plain ol' human?, etc.
That's because SF literature is at some level about human relationships, weaknesses, foibles, and the way that people deal with the world and other people.
GWSMs are so extensively modified and perfected as fighting machines, as to be no longer human. They have no relevance or interest in a literary sense. They work as game pieces, but not as characters.
No SF author of any merit would have invented SMs as they are, because they would be crappy and pointless heroes. You might as well write a novel about a platoon of tanks.
How about a species of sentient symbiotics which combine at outwardly primate-like appearance with an internal structure that’s heavily infused with a form of algae. These symbiotics are significantly stronger and more resilient than a human is physically, but it’s the differences in their psychology that distances them the most from their species’ most common rival. Intelligence differs significantly from humans, but is rated much higher or much lower depending on the specifics of the metric used. The species has demonstrated an extreme aptitude for technological innovation but individual members of the species are highly impatient and cooperate poorly with one another, leading to a broad range of effective technological advancement within the species and a very low degree of consistency between any two given pieces of technology the race may field.
The race is highly divisive and is splintered into six major ethnocultures. While these ethnic groups, or clans, appear indistinguishable to humans the species itself is often acutely aware of the physiological differences between these groups, and cooperation between members of different groups is uncommon and usually short-lived. These ethnocultural groups differ noticeably in the values they prize, in their favored method of warfare, in the aesthetics they favor, and in their relationship to other species. One ethnocultural group puts a greater degree of emphasis on their physical strength and their sternness. One ethnocultural group is far more mercantile, and puts greater emphasis on the accumulation of wealth and the ownership of expensive (and technologically advanced) weaponry. A third ethnocultural group is more traditionalistic, religious, nomadic, and isolationist, while another is known for being heavily superstitious, having a high degree of physical modification, and reverse-engineering technology stolen from other species. A fifth group is largely nomadic but far more technologically advanced, heavily favoring vehicle ownership and the ability to conduct an assault rapidly. The sixth group has been historically the most friendly towards humanity (by a small margin) and favors the acquisition of power through subterfuge and backstabbing (this ethnocultural group was at one point the most powerful, but many of its members were attacked by the other groups during a semi-recent conflict, and they have yet to regain their place).
The described ethnocultural groups are not unified factions, although the race is more likely to unite along ethnocultural lines. The basic nation, or tribe, of this species is much smaller, constrained by the species’ lack of effort put forth into large-scale organization and the tendency of individuals to fight amongst themselves. Tribal leadership is primarily based on past performance in combat, the self-confidence of the leader in question, loyalty to higher-ups, and simple age and experience. While civil war is common (some may say near continuous) ideological conflict is far less common, most civil wars being between two leaders who consider themselves to be the most effective at attaining universally desired goals. This form of internal conflict can be deceptive, as once one leader gains the upper hand, or the tribe feels threatened by a common enemy, the tribe quickly rallies around one leader, and makes for a surprisingly united front.
Within a tribe there are several major (non-leadership) castes that society is formed of. At least two of these, the medical/surgical and mechanical/engineering castes are mostly determined genetically. There is evidence that members of these castes have an innate sense of fundamental mechanical principles or an innate sense of their species physiological systems, although they are capable of improvement in their fields and they differ widely in their levels of skill. Other castes include a form of priest, manufacturers of alcohol, those responsible for enslaving other species (see below) and a type of psyker (who also acts as a navigator when making voyages by space).
The species in question has a very short expected life span, although it does not appear to physically age in the same way that humans do. Reproduction occurs via the symbiotic algae, which contains all of the race’s genetic material. Reproduction is asexual, and occurs through the continuous releasing of spores throughout the individual’s lifespan (with many being released upon death, especially if the death is physically traumatic). Spores may gestate into full grown members of the species, or into one of several other species which are symbiotic with the same form of algae. These smaller species are fully integrated with the society of their patron species, and serve as forms of livestock, trained animals, menial labor, and occasionally war machines. While some of these species appear to be intelligent, they have no apparent desire to make significant decisions for themselves or become independent from their patrons. Psychological evaluation of these creates is ongoing. The dominant species itself emerges from a form of cocoon that grows (best) in damp, shady areas. When this species emerges from its cocoon it is already mostly grown, and near immediately gains the ability to walk, speak, and use basic tools. By about a week they are equivalent to a human adult in most capabilities.
Space travel is within the capability of any tribe which has advanced to a certain size, and doesn’t appear to require prior experience with space travel or long periods of development into the field, which is further evidence for the theory that the engineering caste of the species has an instinctual understanding of mechanical principles and the possibility of travel through the immaterium. Navigation and communication through warpspace are done by the psyker caste, although the species tends to be rather poor in navigatory skills, and fleets of ships crewed by the species maintain the relative tendency towards discoordination common to the race. Interactions with other space-faring species usually end in war.
Relations with humanity have been overwhelmingly negative. Due to their method of reproduction they have a diminished sense of self-preservation, and a diminished sense of importance with regards to long-term planning, which coupled with a very martial society (for all ethnocultures) and in many cases delusions of grandeur among their leadership leads to frequent attacks against human planets, even when such attacks have no long-term benefit for their tribe. The species is most dangerous, however, when it engages in a form of migratory holy war. This attack is generally led by a single individual, but is led more for the sake of the expansion and instinctive desire to wage war than it is for the aspirations of any individual. While usually unsuccessful at destroying the designated enemy or at carving out an intergalactic empire, these holy wars achieve their main purpose, which is to spread the species to new worlds and to destabilize those in the galaxy (such as humanity) who would curtail their activities. On occasion the species has been helpful to humanity, mostly through waging war on our other enemies, and through a small amount of trade, but these benefits have been small compared to the costs they’ve incurred on us.
That, to me, is actually a pretty damn good alien race, and it seems far less of a cliched than the Tau or Tyranids. They actually manage to have a visible alien mindset, which is something that sci-fi tends to fail at hard (and 40k usually tends to fail at with regards to the Eldar, in my opinion). Actually, I think this is an advantage of the relationship to the fantasy genre; in my experience fantasy often differentiates their races better from a cultural and psychological standpoint than sci-fi does, because sci-fi writers become too distracted by technological and physiological differentiation.
Grass4hopper wrote:Can't argue with you there , but IMO they still resemble the SM more that the IG.
True enough, though the parts where they're not in their armor are more IG-like.
And the soldiers from Aliens are definitely more IG than SM, being outfitted in nothing more than light body armor with a handful of special weapons at their disposal. They're pretty similar to the "Yeah, those are totally Imperial Guard" marines from the Starship Troopers movie when it comes down to it.
I agree with you. i was just saying that 40kSM are radically different from any of the 'Space Marines' I'm personally familiar with in the various Sci Fi media. Obviously 40k is inspired by older Sci Fi, like almost every other Sci Fi, but IMO they're taken general concepts and made them unique.
I say that these races are needed because they are apart of the story. And I play Orks,so that's why I dont like you. Every race is needed,or else,It just ain't 40k!
to the OP i think that is stupid to say that all of the other races are just rip offs of other things were as most things are in the real world. Do you know how many thing ripped off movies like Star wars and James Bond or the book the Hobbit. All cop movies and westerns are basicly the same because of that reason. I think that the whole consept of the IoM being really really good is silly. In real life the IoM would stand a chance against half of the thing in th40k Universe.
Kilkrazy wrote:...
GWSMs are so extensively modified and perfected as fighting machines, as to be no longer human. They have no relevance or interest in a literary sense. They work as game pieces, but not as characters.
No SF author of any merit would have invented SMs as they are, because they would be crappy and pointless heroes. You might as well write a novel about a platoon of tanks.
I disagree, afterall we play a game that someone who can be called a sci-fi author, even if he was only writting a game, it is a sci-fi game, and he included it, and BL has tons of stories about the marines and people apparently read the. Of course there are plenty of books that are soley about tanks as well and people read those too....so I don't see how this helps your point.
Kilkrazy wrote:...
GWSMs are so extensively modified and perfected as fighting machines, as to be no longer human. They have no relevance or interest in a literary sense. They work as game pieces, but not as characters.
No SF author of any merit would have invented SMs as they are, because they would be crappy and pointless heroes. You might as well write a novel about a platoon of tanks.
I disagree, afterall we play a game that someone who can be called a sci-fi author, even if he was only writting a game, it is a sci-fi game, and he included it, and BL has tons of stories about the marines and people apparently read the. Of course there are plenty of books that are soley about tanks as well and people read those too....so I don't see how this helps your point.
I'm still right, though.
No SF author of any merit
Are 10% of SF books solely about tanks? What counts as plenty? Are the books about tanks devoid of human emotion, etc?
That's exactly how that little known event called The Horus Heresy started iirc. A clash of non-pesonalities with a lack of ambition and emotion feeding the Chaos Gods.
So, according to you, everyoe should only play Space Marines?
1: That would be very boring
2: If you want something that is completely original and not at all inspired by something else, you'll be dissapointed by just about everything in life, from music, to TV, to movies and video games.... Everything.
Kilkrazy wrote:...
GWSMs are so extensively modified and perfected as fighting machines, as to be no longer human. They have no relevance or interest in a literary sense. They work as game pieces, but not as characters.
No SF author of any merit would have invented SMs as they are, because they would be crappy and pointless heroes. You might as well write a novel about a platoon of tanks.
I disagree, afterall we play a game that someone who can be called a sci-fi author, even if he was only writting a game, it is a sci-fi game, and he included it, and BL has tons of stories about the marines and people apparently read the. Of course there are plenty of books that are soley about tanks as well and people read those too....so I don't see how this helps your point.
I'm still right, though.
No SF author of any merit
Are 10% of SF books solely about tanks? What counts as plenty? Are the books about tanks devoid of human emotion, etc?
That would seem to be an accurate remark. As for books on Tanks, most of those tend to be historical, or for model makers, or they are repair manuals, and then there are books on tanks that hold water not weapons, so....yeah I think they are devoid of most human emotion as they tend to be more factual....the Patton Tank was --- long and it had 15 inch gun on it and blah blah blah blah .... yeah...no human emotion....but there are still lots of those books and people do read them....so I guess we are both right.
because I personally think their fluff is stupid, but I'm not calling for them to be scrapped.
up.
