20086
Post by: Andilus Greatsword
Hey, haven't posted in a long time... I've got an Apocalypse game coming up at the FLG and apparently last time they held one someone brought a Bio-Titan. I cracked open the Apocalypse rulebook to check out this bad boy and just have this to say - Oh. My. God. This thing is going to lay waste to whoever tries to face it. Does anyone have any experience against Hierophants that can give me any pointers in case this thing shows up next weekend? I play Space Wolves just for the record, and there's probably going to be at least 8 other people there, so chances are that even if it shows up then some one else can deal with it, but still I just want to know, thanks.
28753
Post by: Nulipuli2
i've seen hierophants taken down by lots and lots of dreadnoughts. So dreadnought spam will work.
17923
Post by: Asherian Command
force weapons  or just lots of dreadnought spam.
Thunderhawks, reaver titans.
31682
Post by: CommissarCandlestick
Spam D weapons. Or a force weapon. Well, you play Wolves, so why not take loads of LFs with ML/ Lascannons?
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Post by: Devastator
so what so fearsome about it?
shoot it some heavy weapons and it will die
it don't even have inv save
20841
Post by: Shas'O Dorian
Str D & AP 1-2 weapons especially Lascannons. The best it will ever have is a 2+ armor & 5+ cover (Venomthrope). It appears really scary but unless there are multiples it's a huge fire magnet. I wouldn't count on force weapons, Mostly you will need a 4 to hit & a 6 to wound, odds are stacked against you but you could try.
25475
Post by: Devastator
and -phant has EW so force weapons=fail
10347
Post by: Fafnir
I stand by the giant green suppository known as Ghazghkull for all my slaying needs.
27848
Post by: ChrisWWII
A vortex grenade if you can have one would be quite useful. If you've got an IG player, tell him to take the Vortex Missile Launcher formation if he can. That baby will take care of your nid horde problem.
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Post by: Tri
... As an eldar player i normally send my fire dragons in ... sure they die but heck vs nids its the best target ....
Note I've also fought the forge world rules ... that's a lot harder to kill as the crazy fools gave it mass points as well as wounds and a 2+/5++...
read more here http://www.lski.org/pictures/TableTopGaming/GW/40k/ForgeWorld/hierophant.pdf
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Post by: shrike
LF spam
D-weapons
titanhammer squads, a sanguinary preist with TDA, Vulkan and lysander.
2+/3++ FNP, a 4-wound EW to soak up incoming fire, 20 master-crafted S8 no-armour attacks which make it I1, 4 S10 master-crafted no armour attacks, and to help, a vortex grenade and less scattering. Ouch. That is a pricey unit that can kill MC's, super-heavies, and just about anything. It will be a fire magnet. One that I favour is vanguard veterans with TH/SS, shrike, korvydae, and as many JP-equipped men as you can.
-infiltrate 18" away from it.
-jump to be 6" away from it.
-fleet closer.
-assault the remaining distance, and then:
you get 19 TH attacks, 5 re-roll to hit and wound rending attacks, furious charge, hit & run and stealth.
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Post by: CommissarCandlestick
Devastator wrote:and -phant has EW so force weapons=fail
This I did not know. In that case, just use loads of HW.
15884
Post by: ghosty
Or, alternatively, make an army that's such an unappealing target, he won't sick it on you. So, no hordes of men, and no hordes of tanks. And no expensive units.
Maybe not turn up at all? It'll mean you won't have to worry about getting eaten at all!
10470
Post by: shrike
Go in the far corner of the table, preferably behing a fortress wall, with several basilisks.
Or flank march about 20 empty drop pods, all with ML's.
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Post by: schadenfreude
It's only T8 with a 2+ and 5++ invo, which isn't that good for 833 points.
There are quite a few CC deathstars that could take it out.
Anything that can wound it and bypass the 2+ will find the 5++ invo laughable
10 TH/SS termies and a chaplain charge, 2 die before I1
8 TH/SS termies with a chaplain left alive=24 attacks=18 hits=9 wounds=6 unsaved wounds=dead 833 point biotitan. Not bad for a 500 point deathstar.
10470
Post by: shrike
schadenfreude wrote:It's only T8 with a 5+ invo, which isn't that good for 833 points.
IMO the smaller ones (heirodules) (sp?) are more worth the points.
13740
Post by: Valkyrie
Try some sort of Flyer, Hierophants can't touch them in CC, but be wary of their Bio-Cannons. You want to go for something that's good in CC, but doesn't rely on Initiative 1 weapons, such as Power Fists. Dreadnoughts are good for this, as well as TH/SS Termies, as even though they're I1, their 3++ gives them extra survivability. Also, try loading up on Plasma: Try, for example, a unit of Sternguard with Plasma Rifles (their Boltguns are useless against it, even when using the Poisoned (2+) bolts)
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Post by: Nulipuli2
i would suggest not using plasma, i think its t8 or t9, your going to be wounding on a 5+ and then it gets its 5++
13740
Post by: Valkyrie
Oh yeah, forgot that  you could try Melta instead.
27848
Post by: ChrisWWII
It depends on what rules your using. FW rules are the 833 pts version that has that weird mass points system...The Apocalypse rules (which are, if I'm not mistaken, more modern, and therefore the version likely to be used) are quite different.
20086
Post by: Andilus Greatsword
ChrisWWII wrote:It depends on what rules your using. FW rules are the 833 pts version that has that weird mass points system...The Apocalypse rules (which are, if I'm not mistaken, more modern, and therefore the version likely to be used) are quite different.
I can pretty much guarantee that they'd be using Apocalypse rules for it. The Apoc Hierophant is considerably more powerful than the FW one. It's 415 more points, but it has double the wounds, 8 Attacks, T9, a better gun (48", S10, AP3, Assault 8), regenerate and has Warp Field. Personally I don't really think it's worth the points, but even still it's going to be a fun challenge.
Assaulting the Hierophant seems foolish (between the Hierphant's spore clouds and lash whips), although I might use my Venerable Dreadnought to tie it down. Heavy ranged fire seems like the best option. In any case I want to kill this thing though - seriously that's a ton of glory that no Space Wolves player would pass up lol.
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Post by: Grey Templar
the Appoc version is truely a problem.
it has 10 wounds and has Regeneration.
your best bet is to spam Str8+ weapons. Lascannon Longfangs will do a number on it.
a Titan of your own can drop a couple wounds on it each turn. a Warhound with 2 Turbolasers is fast enough to avoid it and drop at least 2 wounds a turn on it that it only saves on 5+. it can run away and still fire 1 gun while fleeting.
a Titan hammer formation will do something. toss the Vortex grenade in and then assault with the terminators. you have a 3++ save to weather it's attacks and you then wound on 4s and it's just got a 5++
20086
Post by: Andilus Greatsword
Hmm, I like the vortex grenade suggestion, but it gives me another idea - I have Lukas the Trickster, so if my heavy weapons fail to bring the Bio-titan down before it reaches my lines, I could put up a screen of Blood Claws and make sure that Lukas gets killed and uses Last Laugh on the Hierophant.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
it still requires a dice off between you and your oponent that the Titan has a 50% chance of surviving.
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Post by: DarkHound
Q. Does Lukas the Tricksterʼs The Last Laugh special rule
affect friendly models? How about vehicles? Or Warlordclass
Titans, for that matter? (p52)
A. Yes in all three cases – it affects any unit in base
contact. Stasis fields are very all-or-nothing affairs!
Please, please do not legitimize this stupid fracking ruling. I beg you.
In a situation like this, I'd take a Predator Assassination team. Take Devastators too. I don't think Terminators are going to be cost efficient enough, not to mention they're easier to avoid.
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Post by: Happygrunt
You could always take greyknights?
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Force Weapon of  Eternal warrior.
Suck it, Nids
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Post by: Happygrunt
Grey Templar wrote:Force Weapon of Eternal warrior.
Suck it, Nids
Grey Knight Terminators can insta kill any infantry in the game. Toss a grand master in, its an Apoc game, and anything on the table will QUACK IN FEAR! YES, THEY WILL QUACK!
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Post by: ElCheezus
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2620179_Imperial_Guard_Datasheet_-_Armageddon_Stompa_Hunters.pdf_
Take Lascannon Sentinels and the asset that lets you hit on 2+ for a turn. They get double shots and effectively have BS 5 for a turn. That should dump a large number of wounds on it. LasCannons seem like the best ranged tool, to me. Even plasma type weapons wound on 6's. Of course, I think DEldar have a leg up with all their poison.
20086
Post by: Andilus Greatsword
DarkHound wrote:Q. Does Lukas the Tricksterʼs The Last Laugh special rule
affect friendly models? How about vehicles? Or Warlordclass
Titans, for that matter? (p52)
A. Yes in all three cases – it affects any unit in base
contact. Stasis fields are very all-or-nothing affairs!
Please, please do not legitimize this stupid fracking ruling. I beg you.
In a situation like this, I'd take a Predator Assassination team. Take Devastators too. I don't think Terminators are going to be cost efficient enough, not to mention they're easier to avoid.
I don't like the rule myself, it's rather stupid, but if there's a Bio-titan bearing down on my lines then it's going to be my very last resort. I'd rather not lose a whole squad of Blood Claws for nothing...
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Post by: ChrisWWII
I still say a Vortex Deathstrike Missile at long range followed up by a couple turns of just pounding away with lascannons and other nasty things, with a Titanhammer Squad to finish it off should kill it just fine.
Of course, this means you'll be shooting everything you've got at the Hierophant, which is probably exactly what the Nid player wants.
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Post by: tetrisphreak
As far as Nemesis Force Weapons go, have fun trying to wound T9 with a S4 weapon. In addition, Gargantuan creatures are IMMUNE to ALL psychic powers, including force weapon psychic tests.
Also to be noted: you can't 'tie up' a gargantuan creature with anything short of a titan or another gargantuan creature. All other types of models automatically break 1" at the end of combat resolution, regardless of who won combat. CC is not the way to go vs the hierophant.
Vortex grenades and Lukas the trickster are your only high-chance ways to pop this bug, or bear down on S-D weaponry from a baneblade variant or warlord titan. Alternatively, if you have 4 or 5 terminus ultra pattern landraiders (with 5 lascannons on each one) i have seen them take down a hierophant in as little as two turns.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
NFWs are Str6.
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Post by: Devastator
tetrisphreak wrote: In addition, Gargantuan creatures are IMMUNE to ALL psychic powers, including force weapon psychic tests.
this also effects warp shield(?) so no inv for -phant! also it don't get updated warp shield as it only affects zoanthropes
20086
Post by: Andilus Greatsword
ChrisWWII wrote:I still say a Vortex Deathstrike Missile at long range followed up by a couple turns of just pounding away with lascannons and other nasty things, with a Titanhammer Squad to finish it off should kill it just fine.
Of course, this means you'll be shooting everything you've got at the Hierophant, which is probably exactly what the Nid player wants.
Ya exactly, I'm not sure how many other Super-Heavies will be there, but I would be surprised if I didn't see a Stompa or 2 (this is gonna be a team game, Imperium vs Xenos most likely)...
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Post by: VikingScott
It also depends if the player is using the revised Heirophant bio-morphs from the latest nid dex or the ones it had when the apoc book came out.
(I don't know if this has been faq'd)
New books says Warp Feild is 3++ and lash whips make you strike at I1
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Post by: tetrisphreak
Devastator wrote:tetrisphreak wrote: In addition, Gargantuan creatures are IMMUNE to ALL psychic powers, including force weapon psychic tests.
this also effects warp shield(?) so no inv for -phant! also it don't get updated warp shield as it only affects zoanthropes
That is correct. The Warp Shield psychic power doesn't apply to the Hierophant. Edited - No such save exists on the statline. As to the NFW being S6, i was unaware of that fact. Sorry. However the fact remains that gargantuans are immune to psychic powers.
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Post by: Devastator
VikingScott wrote:New books says Warp Feild is 3++
it also says it gives zoanthrope 3++
is the phant zoanthrope?
31561
Post by: ElCheezus
tetrisphreak wrote:As far as Nemesis Force Weapons go, have fun trying to wound T9 with a S4 weapon. In addition, Gargantuan creatures are IMMUNE to ALL psychic powers, including force weapon psychic tests.
I wasn't aware of this, so I just looked it up. Gargantuans actually take d3 wounds from anything that would cause ID of any sort. So it's not immune to the force weapon, but it modifies it. Also the S6 thing, but that was mentioned already.
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Post by: Grey Templar
the Test for a Force Weapon is cast on the Wielder of the FW, NOT the creature getting killed. Automatically Appended Next Post: ElCheezus wrote:tetrisphreak wrote:As far as Nemesis Force Weapons go, have fun trying to wound T9 with a S4 weapon. In addition, Gargantuan creatures are IMMUNE to ALL psychic powers, including force weapon psychic tests.
I wasn't aware of this, so I just looked it up. Gargantuans actually take d3 wounds from anything that would cause ID of any sort. So it's not immune to the force weapon, but it modifies it. Also the S6 thing, but that was mentioned already.
Which can't save the Biotitan as DH force weapons don't cause ID. they remove all your wounds
31561
Post by: ElCheezus
Grey Templar wrote:the Test for a Force Weapon is cast on the Wielder of the FW, NOT the creature getting killed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ElCheezus wrote:tetrisphreak wrote:As far as Nemesis Force Weapons go, have fun trying to wound T9 with a S4 weapon. In addition, Gargantuan creatures are IMMUNE to ALL psychic powers, including force weapon psychic tests.
I wasn't aware of this, so I just looked it up. Gargantuans actually take d3 wounds from anything that would cause ID of any sort. So it's not immune to the force weapon, but it modifies it. Also the S6 thing, but that was mentioned already.
Which can't save the Biotitan as DH force weapons don't cause ID. they remove all your wounds
Now you're getting rules-lawyery in the most casual and fun variety of 40k. Also, the Apoc book mentions "anything that would normally kill a model automatically" being converted to d3. I think "removing all wounds" plainly counts as that.
Plus, the things costs 1200 some points. I think its fair to say that anything that doesn't actually take multiple rounds of serious effort is probably a cheap way of killing it.
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Post by: tetrisphreak
Agreed. Like i said, with the new rules for warp shield, the best the 'phant can do is a 5++ cover save from a venomthrope, and S-D weapons ignore cover. Alternatively laying down lascannon fire from across the table for a couple of turns should yield decent results, considering the return fire from the beast will only hit on 4's (missing half it's shots) and then if you're in cover you can throw a 4+ cover save on any wounds it causes, all while laying down suppressive laser fire until it's a smoking corpse.
If you're looking for cheap killy death just suicide a lukas the trickster with some blood claws in a drop pod, and hope he takes the bait.
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Post by: VikingScott
Devastator wrote:VikingScott wrote:New books says Warp Feild is 3++
it also says it gives zoanthrope 3++
is the phant zoanthrope?
Now your being pedantic. And irritating.
Read throught your posts on this thread and decide if there actually helpful because I'm having trouble justifying them.
Welcome to my ignore list. Goodbye
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Post by: Devastator
VikingScott wrote:Now your being pedantic. And irritating.
so using real rules is irritating for you?
31561
Post by: ElCheezus
A 3++ on a T9 ten-wound creature would be beyond ridiculous. Again, we're trying to have a fun game. When even Thunderhammers wound on 5+, this thing is going to take a while to kill as-is. I, for one, think it makes perfect sense to limit the 3++ Warp Field to Zoanthropes.
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Post by: Tri
Devastator wrote:VikingScott wrote:Now your being pedantic. And irritating.
Read throught your posts on this thread and decide if there actually helpful because I'm having trouble justifying them.
Welcome to my ignore list. Goodbye
so using real rules is irritating for you?
he can't see this unless some one reposts it for you ... to be frank I don't agree with using the ignore function as that's not a debate (more la la la i'm not listening) ... in this case we have a monster made to be used with the last rule book now given a massive boost by the new. Since Apoc is more about an epic battle; debating if you give it all the new toys is valid ... I'm not sure that a 3++ is fair for its points see but that's me.
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Post by: Happygrunt
Grey Knight Terminators with a grand master will kill it. Also, orbital strikes. They are in the DH or WH book. There is no limit to what you can bring in an APOC game. So bring 10 lance strikes.
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Post by: ElCheezus
Happygrunt wrote:Grey Knight Terminators with a grand master will kill it. Also, orbital strikes. They are in the DH or WH book. There is no limit to what you can bring in an APOC game. So bring 10 lance strikes.
We've discussed the GK force weapons already. It's kinda ridiculous to expect your 145 point model take out a 1200+ point one the first time it connects with one hit. Also, it's covered in the Apoc rules.
As for lance strikes, well, they scatter a lot and have to be focused on a piece of terrain. Gargantuans move 12", so they'll clear any terrain even if they got caught by to begin with.
35821
Post by: Mastermind
Sniper Rifles anyone?
27848
Post by: ChrisWWII
The Gargantuan Creature Special rule says that it's immune to psychic powers that do NOT have a Strength value. So yes, you can't take force weapon tests against them, but you can hurt them with psychic shooting attacks.
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Post by: ElCheezus
At the risk of quoting too much from a GW product: "All gargantuan creatures are immune to the Instant Death rule. In addition, because they are so powerful, they are not affected by any attack that would normally kill a model automatically (like a Force Weapon, an attack that kills as a result of a failed Characteristic test, etc.). Such attacks cause D3 wounds instead." p 91 Apocalypse
So Force Weapons are allowed to affect it, but they don't kill it. They inflict D3 wounds, like I've said three times now.
Also, re: sniper rifles, poisoned weapons and sniper rifles wound on 6 instead of 4+, also per the rules for gargantuan creatures. Again p 91.
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Post by: ChrisWWII
He is correct, so the massed Dark Eldar weaponry plan won't work.
I would still argue that force weapons can not do more than inflict one standard wound on the Biotitan. The same page also says that it is immune to all psychic powers that do not have a strength value. Causing instant death does not have a strength value, therefore force weapons can not inflict d3 wounds. They only cause the standard 1 wound that any other weapon would inflict.
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Post by: ElCheezus
The parenthetical explanation in there that mentions force weapons and characteristic tests is in the book, it's not my words. So they specifically mentioned a force weapon's result against a gargantuan. If that weren't there, I'd agree with you.
21364
Post by: FM Ninja 048
38463
Post by: Waricck
Land Raider Terminus Ultra. Seriously, there's nothing it can't do.
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Post by: ChrisWWII
ElCheezus wrote:The parenthetical explanation in there that mentions force weapons and characteristic tests is in the book, it's not my words. So they specifically mentioned a force weapon's result against a gargantuan. If that weren't there, I'd agree with you.
Hmm, well yes, I guess the fact that they mention it DOES mean that the Force Weapon test can be taken...I'm guessing force weapons are an exception to the 'unaffected by psychic' powers rule, then.
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Post by: Chowderhead
Linebreaker Formation. 10 Vindicators open fire, it's gonna die.
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Post by: FM Ninja 048
Waricck wrote:Land Raider Terminus Ultra. Seriously, there's nothing it can't do.
can't do green tides
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Post by: shrike
Can't do D-weapons
Can't do multiple deff-rollas
Can't do MC's
Can't do vortex grenades
Can't do lance weapons
The list goes on.
20086
Post by: Andilus Greatsword
ElCheezus wrote:Plus, the things costs 1200 some points. I think its fair to say that anything that doesn't actually take multiple rounds of serious effort is probably a cheap way of killing it.
Exactly, as much as the Hierophant freaks me out, I'm seriously looking forward to fighting it. If the guy who owns it doesn't show up, I'm gonna be sad. 
Also, could Rending weapons be theoretically effective?
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
6s wound and ignore armor.
thats about it though.
you would need lots of rends to kill it.
20086
Post by: Andilus Greatsword
Ya I figured as much but I decided to ask anyway. Thanks for the advice everyone, this should be helpful! 
31561
Post by: ElCheezus
Rending is extra nice, I'd think. It gives models with low strength a chance, plus it would ignore the 2+ armor. So the difference between a power fist and something with rending against this thing is that the Str 8 wounds on 5+ instead of just 6+. Getting a lot of rending attacks might be more cost effective than a lot of high strength attacks.
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Post by: MekanobSamael
I believe that its value in assaulting Hammernators (30, IIRC) will kill it in one round, even with it's 3++ save.
Here's my calculation (I'm going from memory on some of these figures, so please correct if you have the 'Dex on you):
30 Models
3 Attacks/Model Charging
WS 4 --> WS 3
S8 --> T8
3++ Save
30*3*(2/3)*(1/2)*(1/3)=10
1986
Post by: thehod
For the points of 1 Hierophant have the following:
5 SW lords on TW mounts
Powerfist, Stormshield, Wolftooth talisman, saga of the bear.
25 Attacks not charging, hits on 3s and wounds on 2s
Its 50/50 on 1 shotting the Hierophant.
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Post by: theduncan
Emperor Battle Titan w/ 6 laser blasters, 2 vengeance cannons - 4000 pts
Belieive that is 26 D shots per turn.
Suck it non imperials.
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Post by: wyomingfox
Tri wrote:Devastator wrote:VikingScott wrote:Now your being pedantic. And irritating.
Read throught your posts on this thread and decide if there actually helpful because I'm having trouble justifying them.
Welcome to my ignore list. Goodbye
so using real rules is irritating for you?
he can't see this unless some one reposts it for you ... to be frank I don't agree with using the ignore function as that's not a debate (more la la la i'm not listening)
... in this case we have a monster made to be used with the last rule book now given a massive boost by the new. Since Apoc is more about an epic battle; debating if you give it all the new toys is valid ... I'm not sure that a 3++ is fair for its points see but that's me.
1250 for a 3++ Heirophant would be cheap. But then, a warhound titan with 2 turbo lazers (that's 4 Strength D Pie Plates that ignore cover, auto wound and auto-instant death) is a paultry 750 or so. Best bet is bringing two of these War"Gods" to the table and wacking the Bio-Titan with 8 unsaved wounds a turn.
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Post by: Evil Lamp 6
I am surprised no one has mentioned this yet:
Multiple WH Inq. Lords with Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbows (or Power Stakes if you're feeling frisky/suicidal).
Hierophant: Psyker? Check!
Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbows: Assault 2 with 24" range wounding Psykers on a 2+ with no armor save allowed? Check!
Can be taken on multiple cheap models? Check!
If you can get within the 24" needed, multiple Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbows seem to be the BEST way to deal with the beast. About the only downsides are the short range (for Apoc anyway) and that they are Combi so only one use per. But for the points it is a steal with so few needed to take down so many. Oh and they still get their Invul save, but with its older (arguable) 6++ , should be no problem still.
Edited for clarity.
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Post by: Tri
Evil Lamp 6 wrote:I am surprised no one has mentioned this yet:
Multiple WH Inq. Lords with Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbows (or Power Stakes if you're feeling frisky/suicidal).
Hierophant: Psyker? Check!
Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbows: Assault 2 with 24" range wounding Psykers on a 2+ with no armor save allowed? Check!
Can be taken on multiple cheap models? Check!
If you can get within the 24" needed, multiple Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbows seem to be the BEST way to deal with the beast. About the only downsides are the short range (for Apoc anyway) and that they are Combi so only one use per. But for the points it is a steal with so few needed to take down so many. Oh and they still get their Invul save, but with its older (arguable) 6++ , should be no problem still.
Edited for clarity.
Poison weapons only wound on 6's ... so you need about 80
21662
Post by: Exor
Agonisers anyone?
21364
Post by: FM Ninja 048
Tri wrote:Evil Lamp 6 wrote:I am surprised no one has mentioned this yet:
Multiple WH Inq. Lords with Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbows (or Power Stakes if you're feeling frisky/suicidal).
Hierophant: Psyker? Check!
Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbows: Assault 2 with 24" range wounding Psykers on a 2+ with no armor save allowed? Check!
Can be taken on multiple cheap models? Check!
If you can get within the 24" needed, multiple Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbows seem to be the BEST way to deal with the beast. About the only downsides are the short range (for Apoc anyway) and that they are Combi so only one use per. But for the points it is a steal with so few needed to take down so many. Oh and they still get their Invul save, but with its older (arguable) 6++ , should be no problem still.
Edited for clarity.
Poison weapons only wound on 6's ... so you need about 80
Not poison weapon, special rule
29655
Post by: Evil Lamp 6
Tri wrote:Evil Lamp 6 wrote:I am surprised no one has mentioned this yet:
Multiple WH Inq. Lords with Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbows (or Power Stakes if you're feeling frisky/suicidal).
Hierophant: Psyker? Check!
Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbows: Assault 2 with 24" range wounding Psykers on a 2+ with no armor save allowed? Check!
Can be taken on multiple cheap models? Check!
If you can get within the 24" needed, multiple Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbows seem to be the BEST way to deal with the beast. About the only downsides are the short range (for Apoc anyway) and that they are Combi so only one use per. But for the points it is a steal with so few needed to take down so many. Oh and they still get their Invul save, but with its older (arguable) 6++ , should be no problem still.
Edited for clarity.
Poison weapons only wound on 6's ... so you need about 80
Not poison weapons. Anti- Psyker weapon. Emphasis mine.
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Post by: shrike
stakes? crossbows? Sounds like they belong to Inquisitor Lord Van Helsing.
Dammit, now that's another one for my "to convert" list.
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Post by: Thatguyoverthere
Grey Templar wrote:6s wound and ignore armor.
thats about it though.
you would need lots of rends to kill it.
Now I want to take 1200 points worth of Penal Legion troopers into hand to hand with it.
That's 15 squads. An average of 5 of them will have knife fighter. If they get the charge. 150 rending attacks!!! (Minus 50 for lash whips)
It's an awful idea, but it would be so much fun to watch.
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Post by: ChrisWWII
Except they would all die if they didn't kill it outright.....
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Post by: Thatguyoverthere
ChrisWWII wrote:Except they would all die if they didn't kill it outright.....
So? That'd be fun to watch too.
I need to start working on my conversions if I'm going to get 150 of these guys put together by the next Apoc. game.
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Post by: Evil Lamp 6
Mathhammer time!
For Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbows!
Using the standard BS 4 for Inq/Inq Lords shooting with the Hierophant not getting cover and with the 6++:
To hit (2/3) * To wound (5/6) * Failed Invul Save (5/6) = 25/54 = .463 unsaved wounds.
Being Assault 2, you would need just over 10, so 11 Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbows. Buying just the Inquisitors and weapons would be just over 300 points at minimum and just over 600 if you went with Inq Lords (not counting required retinue). Getting them there is another problem.
Now using the BS 5 of Inq/Inq Lords with a Sage (not counting re-roll) in the same situation:
To hit (5/6) * To wound (5/6) * Failed Invul Save (5/6) = 125/216 = .579 unsaved wounds.
Again being Assault 2 weapons, you would need just over 8, so 9 Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbows to take it down in one round of shooting. Again, just over 300 points for Inquisitor, weapon and Sage, or just over 500 points with Inq Lords, weapon and Sage (other retinue not included).
So for about 1/4 the cost of the Bio-Titan, it could be killed with Inquisitors with Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbows.
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Post by: Andilus Greatsword
Evil Lamp 6 wrote:Mathhammer time!
For Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbows!
Using the standard BS 4 for Inq/Inq Lords shooting with the Hierophant not getting cover and with the 6++:
To hit (2/3) * To wound (5/6) * Failed Invul Save (5/6) = 25/54 = .463 unsaved wounds.
Being Assault 2, you would need just over 10, so 11 Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbows. Buying just the Inquisitors and weapons would be just over 300 points at minimum and just over 600 if you went with Inq Lords (not counting required retinue). Getting them there is another problem.
Now using the BS 5 of Inq/Inq Lords with a Sage (not counting re-roll) in the same situation:
To hit (5/6) * To wound (5/6) * Failed Invul Save (5/6) = 125/216 = .579 unsaved wounds.
Again being Assault 2 weapons, you would need just over 8, so 9 Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbows to take it down in one round of shooting. Again, just over 300 points for Inquisitor, weapon and Sage, or just over 500 points with Inq Lords, weapon and Sage (other retinue not included).
So for about 1/4 the cost of the Bio-Titan, it could be killed with Inquisitors with Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbows.
Of course this would be much more costly if the 3++ save is in play.
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Post by: Evil Lamp 6
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Of course this would be much more costly if the 3++ save is in play.
Without showing my work, just over 800 points with the 3++ in play for Inquisitors and weapon, with the need for 27 Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbows. With Sages, comes to needing 22 Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbows again coming out at just around 800 points. Too lazy to do maths for Inq Lord, just firgure on being more expensive, also too lazy to work in the re-rolls for Sage(s). Still not bad for one of the nastiest non-vehicle units to be taken down by 2/3 the point cost for said nasty creature.
Edit: And that's with the new (debatable) 3++.
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Post by: Just Dave
So what we've learnt from this thread is that the best way to take down the biggest, baddest, son of a dominatrix the world of 40K has ever seen...
... is with a Crossbow?
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Post by: Chrysis
I'm pretty sure, although I don't have my copy of Apocalypse here to check, that Gargantuan creatures are wounded on a 6+ by anything that wounds on a fixed value. I don't think it's limited to Poison, merely that Poison is an example. So that would make crossbows pretty useless.
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Post by: Evil Lamp 6
Just Dave wrote:So what we've learnt from this thread is that the best way to take down the biggest, baddest, son of a dominatrix the world of 40K has ever seen...
... is with a Crossbow?
Er...more or less, yes. But its not just a crossbow, its a Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbow! So even after using the Stake Crossbow, you have a perfectly good bolter!
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Post by: ChrisWWII
Chrysis wrote:I'm pretty sure, although I don't have my copy of Apocalypse here to check, that Gargantuan creatures are wounded on a 6+ by anything that wounds on a fixed value. I don't think it's limited to Poison, merely that Poison is an example. So that would make crossbows pretty useless.
The rule in the Apoc book says "all sniper and poisoned weapons wound on a 6", so if something else wounded on a fixed value but lacked either the poison or sniper rule, it would still wound at that fixed value.
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Post by: Evil Lamp 6
Chrysis wrote:I'm pretty sure, although I don't have my copy of Apocalypse here to check, that Gargantuan creatures are wounded on a 6+ by anything that wounds on a fixed value. I don't think it's limited to Poison, merely that Poison is an example. So that would make crossbows pretty useless.
That would be a negative. The relevant rules are in the Apocalypse rule book on page 90 under main heading 'Gargantuan Creatures' under subheading of 'Special Rules', 5th paragraph, first (only) sentence, "All sniper and poisoned weapons wound gargantuan creatures only on a roll of 6." Whether it is an oversight that ALL weapons that wound on a fixed value were left out, or more likely the authors just didn't think of an almost never used piece of war gear from a 3rd edition (yet still current) codex.
Either way, Combi Bolter-Stake Crossbows work just fine against psyker gargantuan creatures as that weapon is neither type sniper nor poisoned.
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Post by: Chrysis
That clears that up then. Looks like pointy pieces of wood are one of the best ways to kill a Hierophant. I suspect it probably was an oversight, much like the Heirophant RAW being immune to it's own psychic powers, but it's very clear exactly what it does.
It would be nice if they'd errata some of the Apoc stuff to bring it into line with 5th and the new codexes. There are a number of things they broke that it'd be nice to have an official line on clearing up. Specifically I'm thinking of the interaction between Flyers, Skimmer Moving Fast, and Eldar Titan Holo-fields.
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Post by: Andilus Greatsword
Ya it would have been nice if they had FAQed some of this into Apoc: Reload.
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Post by: dkellyj
Marneus with a toothpick always works.
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Post by: O'shovah
Andilus Greatsword wrote:Also, could Rending weapons be theoretically effective?
It is if you get enough of it. My ideal way would be charging it with a bunch of deamonettes in with skarbrand nearby, if there are 4 squads (even at low numbers) then it's losing half it's attacks and evry 5 or 6 daemonettes would be a wound, so at 14 points each (plus 300 for skarbrand) it's rather cost effective. Eitheer that or send it's equal cost in bloodthirsters (5 of them could do 2/3's of it's wounds. A problem with almost all of these types of tacticcs is the setup required (and for them to move and let you pull it off).
The problem with the rending is the fact that they can either break combat and shoot you, destroy something else, or let the 100 following guants eat you. It's real power isn't in killing (unless it get's a titan), it's in distracting you from the part of their army that will win them the game.
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Post by: Acardia
I think it's obvious, but Broadsies would kill it dead. You could get 17 of them for the same cost. They would likely kill it dead in one round of shooting with some Marker light support.
I think that it's pretty darn sweet, but I would rather have two of those smaller beasties.
Rending is a good idea I must say as well.
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Post by: ElCheezus
What is it that rends on 5s and 6s? An Eldar unit, I think. That sounds like it might have a good chance compared to most things in the same price range.
Railguns are probably pretty good. If you took a mix of broadsides and the vehicle mounted railguns, that would give blast templates to help with the rest of the 'nids.
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Post by: Grey Templar
Eldar Pathfinders.
Rolls for 6 to hit are Ap1. 5s and 6s to wound will rend.
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Post by: ChrisWWII
Of course, I'm guessing Pathfinders still have the Sniper special rule? In which case, only a roll of 6 will wound a gargantuan creature. That 6 will of course, rend and be AP1, but it has to be a 6.
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Post by: Andilus Greatsword
O'shovah wrote:The problem with the rending is the fact that they can either break combat and shoot you, destroy something else, or let the 100 following guants eat you. It's real power isn't in killing (unless it get's a titan), it's in distracting you from the part of their army that will win them the game.
Ya that's what I've been thinking, and it will be even worse if a Stompa or 2 show up at the Apoc game too. I'm just hoping that we can kill or severely wound it within 2 turns without it killing my transports as they secure objectives.
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Post by: ElCheezus
ChrisWWII wrote:Of course, I'm guessing Pathfinders still have the Sniper special rule? In which case, only a roll of 6 will wound a gargantuan creature. That 6 will of course, rend and be AP1, but it has to be a 6.
If it's a Pathfinder special rule on top of the Sniper rule, then it should still work. We're looking at the Rending part instead of the "snipers wound on 4+" part.
Was there also a CC unit that had the same thing going on, rending on 5s?
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Post by: Grey Templar
Pathfinder's have their own rule that they rend on 5+ rather then on 6s.
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Post by: Tri
pathfinder rule doesn't do anything on a hit roll of 5-6 they get AP 1 .... then roll to wound using sniper Automatically Appended Next Post: ElCheezus wrote:ChrisWWII wrote:Of course, I'm guessing Pathfinders still have the Sniper special rule? In which case, only a roll of 6 will wound a gargantuan creature. That 6 will of course, rend and be AP1, but it has to be a 6.
If it's a Pathfinder special rule on top of the Sniper rule, then it should still work. We're looking at the Rending part instead of the "snipers wound on 4+" part. Was there also a CC unit that had the same thing going on, rending on 5s?
daemons skull taker (can't remember the real name) ?
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Post by: ChrisWWII
Hmmm, ok then. I'mn guessing that rule overules the Gargantuan Creature's rule as it's more specific.
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Post by: Epicwargamer
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Post by: Tri
Epicwargamer wrote:^Pic^
.... on the other hand you're now facing 3 Hierophant, as he costs 4000pts
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Post by: FM Ninja 048
Epicwargamer wrote:[IMG]^^^^^^^^[IMG]
Look in the background, they have the tower of orthanc
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Post by: ChrisWWII
Where is this store? I need to marvel at it in reality.
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Post by: lixulana
I'm amazed that no one i saw posted....
dark eldar volume of poison fire weapons.
eldar pathfinder snipers getting ap 1 of a 5+ to hit and an ap2 on a 6 to wound.
so in theory as it costs 800 points that would be 33 eldar pathfinders.
22 hits of which 7 are ap 1
so 15 wounds from regular shots 2 are ap 2 + 3 wounds at ap 1, netting 13 armor saves at 2+ + 5 inv saves at 3+
so ive taken 3-4 wounds turn one at 36". his shots back are almost worthless 10 shots at bs 3 with a 2+ cover save maybe he kills 2-3 guys.
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Post by: ChrisWWII
Posion weapons wound on a 6+ with Gargantuan Creatures, so Dark Eldar mass poisoned spam won't work.
Eldar Pathfinders sound like the best way to kill it outside of titan class weaponary. Although we've forgotten that the OP plays Space WOlves, so all this talk of Eldar snipers is entirerly pointless.
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Post by: Andilus Greatsword
haha well no worries, it's still interesting seeing how it can be done.
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Post by: Shenra
I actually faced a Heirophant at an Apoc game three months ago...it was team Apoc and I played Daemons and my partner played CSM. He took the vortex grenade, which wounded the Heirophant. We attacked it with Abaddon, a Bloodthirster and Daemon Prince, finally killing it.
But the most beautiful thing was using a daemon asset I took control of it for one of its shooting phases and used the big guns against it's own troops. That was hilarious.
But to get to the point: we contacted Gamesworkshop about it's warpfield and the zoanthrope question...and the answer is neither: it doesn't get the Zoanthrope field, and it doesn't lose the field it currently has. It keeps the field it has as written in the Apoc book. So you'll need to know that for your planning. The new codex doesn't address the heirophant's field...so it keeps it. At least that's what GW ruled, and we went with that during my tournie. Automatically Appended Next Post: tetrisphreak wrote:Devastator wrote:tetrisphreak wrote: In addition, Gargantuan creatures are IMMUNE to ALL psychic powers, including force weapon psychic tests.
this also effects warp shield(?) so no inv for -phant! also it don't get updated warp shield as it only affects zoanthropes
That is correct. The Warp Shield psychic power doesn't apply to the Hierophant. Edited - No such save exists on the statline.
As to the NFW being S6, i was unaware of that fact. Sorry. However the fact remains that gargantuans are immune to psychic powers.
As stated above...incorrect. Heirophant gets save as written in APoc book. Automatically Appended Next Post: Devastator wrote:VikingScott wrote:New books says Warp Feild is 3++
it also says it gives zoanthrope 3++
is the phant zoanthrope?
Not a zoanthrope...but just because their saves are labeled the same thing doesn't mean they are the same power. That's what GW said...the Heirophant gets the APOC version as written.
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Post by: Andilus Greatsword
Shenra wrote:I actually faced a Heirophant at an Apoc game three months ago...it was team Apoc and I played Daemons and my partner played CSM. He took the vortex grenade, which wounded the Heirophant. We attacked it with Abaddon, a Bloodthirster and Daemon Prince, finally killing it.
But the most beautiful thing was using a daemon asset I took control of it for one of its shooting phases and used the big guns against it's own troops. That was hilarious.
But to get to the point: we contacted Gamesworkshop about it's warpfield and the zoanthrope question...and the answer is neither: it doesn't get the Zoanthrope field, and it doesn't lose the field it currently has. It keeps the field it has as written in the Apoc book. So you'll need to know that for your planning. The new codex doesn't address the heirophant's field...so it keeps it. At least that's what GW ruled, and we went with that during my tournie.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tetrisphreak wrote:Devastator wrote:tetrisphreak wrote: In addition, Gargantuan creatures are IMMUNE to ALL psychic powers, including force weapon psychic tests.
this also effects warp shield(?) so no inv for -phant! also it don't get updated warp shield as it only affects zoanthropes
That is correct. The Warp Shield psychic power doesn't apply to the Hierophant. Edited - No such save exists on the statline.
As to the NFW being S6, i was unaware of that fact. Sorry. However the fact remains that gargantuans are immune to psychic powers.
As stated above...incorrect. Heirophant gets save as written in APoc book.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Devastator wrote:VikingScott wrote:New books says Warp Feild is 3++
it also says it gives zoanthrope 3++
is the phant zoanthrope?
Not a zoanthrope...but just because their saves are labeled the same thing doesn't mean they are the same power. That's what GW said...the Heirophant gets the APOC version as written.
Where is Warp Field written? In the rules it just says "the Hierophant is a psyker that has the Warp Field power", but doesn't specify what this does. I'm assuming it gets the 4th ed. 2+/6++ ruling?
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Post by: BoyMac
10 Death Company with a Chaplain do it easily. I diced it out a few times and they always did 5-10 wounds extra. This is assuming they get the charge though.
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Post by: kirsanth
I am always amused that it is ok for the opponent to have rules that do nothing. Especially if they are Tyranids.
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Post by: Spellbound
It's not just eternal warrior, it's immune to psychic powers that don't have a strength value and force weapons
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Post by: ElCheezus
Spellbound wrote:It's not just eternal warrior, it's immune to psychic powers that don't have a strength value and force weapons
This has been covered already. Force Weapons do affect gargantuans, and it's specifically mentioned in the rules for them what they do instead of ID.
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Post by: Shenra
Just think of it like this...the psychic power doesn't effect the gargantuan creature...it affects the weapon, making it a force weapon.
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Post by: Andilus Greatsword
Shenra wrote:Just think of it like this...the psychic power doesn't effect the gargantuan creature...it affects the weapon, making it a force weapon.
Even though it specifically mentions Force Weapons in the rule
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Post by: xlightscreen
I think we should just switch are thought process a bit. Right now were basically trying to find out a way to kill the thing in one turn. What we should be finding is just how to kill it in general. I personally would look to your formations you can pose against it as a SM, such as someone mention earlier, the vindicator formation.
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Post by: ChrisWWII
Spellbound wrote:It's not just eternal warrior, it's immune to psychic powers that don't have a strength value and force weapons
Read the thread, we've debated this point already. The Apoc Rulebook literally says, in its rules about instant death as applies to gargantuan creatures that force weapons can attempt to inflict instant death, and if they are succesful, they take d3 wounds instead of 1.
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Post by: Just Dave
Yeah, I'm un-subscribing from this thread as it seems to be the same rules questions over and over again, rather than actually seeing what could take it down... 
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Post by: Billinator
Epicwargamer wrote:
Does that thing come with a swimming pool on top?
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Post by: Andilus Greatsword
Just Dave wrote:Yeah, I'm un-subscribing from this thread as it seems to be the same rules questions over and over again, rather than actually seeing what could take it down...
Yeah... game's tomorrow morning, I'll post here to let you guys know how it goes down (unless the guy with the Hierophant doesn't show up, in which case I'll be very sad... )
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Post by: kirsanth
Just for statistical reference, I would also ask you post if the (or any) invuln save is allowed.
It is a constant reference for us in regard to debatable rules.
Most every I know that has "debatable rules" agrees that if a rule is listed for a model it should be included. This is one that is more contentious than most, however---being that it is Tyranid and useful--most say no.
(No one says that "Warp Field" does not exist. They just say that a Hierophant cannot use it despite it being listed because it changed catagories from 4e to 5e, from a psychic power to a power. The lesser arguemnt is that it specifices Zoanthrope, and not the units that can use it--even if the other unit[s!] has the ability listed.)
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Post by: FM Ninja 048
Take lots of Pics? I want to see this battle...
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Post by: Andilus Greatsword
kirsanth wrote:Just for statistical reference, I would also ask you post if the (or any) invuln save is allowed.
It is a constant reference for us in regard to debatable rules.
Most every I know that has "debatable rules" agrees that if a rule is listed for a model it should be included. This is one that is more contentious than most, however---being that it is Tyranid and useful--most say no.
(No one says that "Warp Field" does not exist. They just say that a Hierophant cannot use it despite it being listed because it changed catagories from 4e to 5e, from a psychic power to a power. The lesser arguemnt is that it specifices Zoanthrope, and not the units that can use it--even if the other unit[s!] has the ability listed.)
It's like the argument that the Doom of Malanti can't use Zoanthrope powers because it's not a Zoanthrope. GW FAQed it, so I would assume the Hierophant follows the same logic.
FM Ninja 048 wrote:Take lots of Pics? I want to see this battle...
Will do! I got a new camera this week and I've been dying to try it out!
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Post by: Andilus Greatsword
kirsanth wrote:Just for statistical reference, I would also ask you post if the (or any) invuln save is allowed.
It is a constant reference for us in regard to debatable rules.
Most every I know that has "debatable rules" agrees that if a rule is listed for a model it should be included. This is one that is more contentious than most, however---being that it is Tyranid and useful--most say no.
(No one says that "Warp Field" does not exist. They just say that a Hierophant cannot use it despite it being listed because it changed catagories from 4e to 5e, from a psychic power to a power. The lesser arguemnt is that it specifices Zoanthrope, and not the units that can use it--even if the other unit[s!] has the ability listed.)
FM Ninja 048 wrote:Take lots of Pics? I want to see this battle...
Sigh. After all that, the guy with the Hierophant didn't show up... you can still read/see the Battle Report here if you want though: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/341580.page#2359425
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