Would anyone really be surprised though? Ex-Illis and similar games are computer assisted gaming, and if you're going to go that route you might as well play computer games.
It was a miniatures game with what is essentially DRM for the miniatures themselves. It wasn't too popular to begin with.
Kudos to the company for trying something new, but the aesthetic really didn't match anything else at the time, and the miniatures themselves had "DRM" that really harmed the third party market.
There was very little incentive at all for a store to try and carry it, and it could be a big PITA to demo. You didn't need the big screen TV to demo it, supposedly, but they always used one.) With no idea how i'd support the game, I passed on it.
One store in the area did get some in. Couldn't sell it. They are also out of business too. Coincidence of course, but glad I passed on Ex-Illis.
Wasn't a very good game and the miniatures were just awkward-looking (remember the massive troll/demon thing with the scythe and the prison in its belly?)
Kirasu wrote:You mean an expensive miniature game that forces you to use a computer went out of business? Shocker of the week there
Reasonable minis, but a flawed gaming system really. That's what you get for making the game too complicated to play for gamers who want to play without computers or iPads but still need to calculate the fethtons of needless stats and modifiers that each unit has.
Dont neccessarily think it was a flawed idea, just one that was too far ahead of its time. When items such as ipads are in more common usage then it maybe it might have some potential. For the most part many people said the same thing about games being released on pdfs 10 years ago and now look at it. There are entire companies that exist off making or distributing PDFs.
mikhaila wrote:There was very little incentive at all for a store to try and carry it, and it could be a big PITA to demo. You didn't need the big screen TV to demo it, supposedly, but they always used one.) With no idea how i'd support the game, I passed on it.
One store in the area did get some in. Couldn't sell it. They are also out of business too. Coincidence of course, but glad I passed on Ex-Illis.
Is it now Ex-Ex-Illis?
Legions has had 2 boxsets sitting on the shelf since the game first demoed! Maybe theyll be collector items now
Can't say I'm sad, disappointed or surprised to see them go. The minis/style was gak, the setting was meh, and the rules were bleh. I give them credit for trying something new, the concept wasn't bad, but the execution was terrible.
I always thought it was a cool idea but not many would be into it. Would have been better to do something like have regular ole dice rules, and then make an official iphone app that you can use instead of you wanna.
Wow..... it's been a great week in gaming. Actually forget that a great month now (please note total sarcasm). So Ex illis is gone, WF is probably done, and very possible that Chapter House Studios is going to not exist much longer.
absolutely no surprise here. considering the game started out with a lie here on dakka and followed that up with aggressive marketing and shouting down those with any slightly negative critique of their minis (including by the company's founder who made an account to do just that), i doubt i'll shed a tear if this is true.
anyone remember how a new member posted a "leak" here of that giant demon mini base that had detail so bad that it looked like it came from a dollar store toy soldier set? that same "leak" was posted on *every* minis site on the web over the coarse of a day... then there was the idea that you should have to unlock your minis online in order to use them since they didn't actually supply you with the rules ... and they never answered my question of what you were supposed to do if you sold the minis to someone since they then couldn't "use" them online as the unique activation number was linked to the owner and they had no method of transferring it... what are the people who actually bought those minis now supposed to do when the servers invariably go down when the company stops paying for them? i guess they'll just have some expensive monopose medieval minis. the final kicker for me was when their most vocal advocate on the web declared it would be awesome if they made a mini of their super evil medieval pope with a knife through his chest. i don't wish anything bad to happen to game companies (the industry is niche enough already) but i can't think of something that this company did that didn't offend me in some way; that's not a good way of getting a chunk of my gaming budget.
edit: almost forgot about this gem on their website.
Oh, now that I have read the last post, seems like the deserve to go burn in their elitist views.
I fully support something computer aided, with things scaled properly (imagine 5 space marines taking on like 100 guardsman, that should be near proper according to the canon fluff), but make it somewhat open source. Or fully open source. I imagine it would be somewhat of a hit.
brettz123 wrote:I keep hearing that there were some real big shots involved with Bastion. Is this true? I have no idea who was involved in this.
No idea. If there were, they weren't at the booth at Gencon in 2009 when they were showing the game off for the first time. We asked there why you need the models at all if there's no webcam or similar tracking them, and they couldn't really give us a satisfactory answer. They just kept pushing how awesome it was that you used your iPad to play it, how convenient that was(because you didn't have to keep track of dice, rulers, books, etc.) and that the models were high quality..
Honestly, this is meh worthy news to me. The only time I ever saw some of the sets available was at a Hobby Town here in town. Every single set they ever had? Still there on discount. People just didn't seem to buy it.
Like them or not, this is a real pity for the industry, as we would like to see more risk-taking like this, not less. My gut tells me that it could be a while before we see a similar conjunction of talents and skills, have a crack at something like this again.
While some people oddly seem happy about this, this would seem to be just another bad sign in a season of bad signs for the hobby as a whole.
Buzzsaw wrote:I think the article linked above puts things in the proper perspective;
Like them or not, this is a real pity for the industry, as we would like to see more risk-taking like this, not less. My gut tells me that it could be a while before we see a similar conjunction of talents and skills, have a crack at something like this again.
While some people oddly seem happy about this, this would seem to be just another bad sign in a season of bad signs for the hobby as a whole.
it could be that we were completely turned off by what they did with that collection of talents and skills. changing basketball by replacing the hoop with a hole in the backboard and adding roller skates is "innovative" but that doesn't mean it's fun and that people will want to play it.
I bought a couple of boxes of their Priest/Monk miniatures – the guys in the big cloaks with the holy symbols and whatnot. I converted them all into imperial monks cut cutting off all the other symbols and replacing them with Aquilas and things like that.
The models themselves were good, there were a lot of options there to make them all look different, and their method for making sprues was excellent. I had no interest in playing the game though. It was an interesting concept though, even if the first attempts at it won’t completely successful.
I guess that means you can’t get their game board then. Ah well...
Buzzsaw wrote:
While some people oddly seem happy about this, this would seem to be just another bad sign in a season of bad signs for the hobby as a whole.
We're "happy" (although I would say "bemused" would perhaps be a better term) because this is simply the effect of open-market capitalism.
Putting out bad product whilst simultaneously forcing your customers to use propietary software to play your game, with the ironically-stated attitude of not being 'elitist', is simply Bad Business 101. No one wanted to play their game because they realized what a hunk of junk it all was.
Not entirely sure why that is a "bad sign" for the industry. If anything, this should force other company's to review their own product before foisting something that is essentially broken upon their consumers.
The new guy in charge at wargames factory is an employee of the chinese company. It would be interesting to know if they also got control of bastion as well. We know they have control of all the molds for both companies anyway.
I'm one of the forumites over at the Ex illis forums. No- no- no need for violence now. I'm not here to preach. While I personally thought the game had a lot of potential, I was always concerned about the bugginess of the software, the marketing hype, and the fans' seeming inability to recognize the flaws with their beloved game.
That said, I am still hugely disappointed about this game's demise. It was the first wargame that my wife would even touch, and because of the hundreds of dollars of plastic that will soon be completely obsolete it will probably be her last. What concerns me here is that this game made a valiant (though misguided) attempt to bring non gamers and fringe gamers into the fold, and it did so more than most would have guessed, but now for all those first time gamers, their first experience will be one of regret.
There were many misunderstandings about the game, and when I first read the goings on over the "leaked" base here, I went back to their forums with the desire to temper their enthusiasm. Needless to say I ended up on several people's ignore lists. It seemed that the staff were fast to respond when I asked them questions about trading, selling, or even glitches. (turns out that you can/could sell miniatures, just by asking to have them transferred). It was this communication and service which convinced me to buy the game. I saw its potential, and its flaws and made a bet that it could improve fast enough. Obviously, I was wrong. Since having joined the ranks of Ex illis players, I have developed a sour taste in my mouth. I had applied for "Bleeding Edge Knight" status, and it's been months since I've heard a thing, and now after just having been told that "all's well" after the whole staff went silent for the entire end of December, we get this news? I feel as if I've been lied to.
The feeling that Bastion was trying to be deceptive seems to be a feeling that is shared by many, though most will insist that they saw through such lies to begin with. The DRM issue was a phantom, and any game could be coded to be played as a video game, but the obviously overblown claims of "Wargaming 2.0" and "Realistic Fantasy" turned a lot of people off. Frankly, the idea was a good one, but the company and it's fans have shot themselves in the foot. I purchased it because I wanted to get back into painting/modeling, and play a game which played quickly(It helped that my wife seemed to love it). Not only that, but this was the first system to capture my imagination since I entered the hobby in 2001. Really, don't let me fool you. I was absolutely in love with the potential that this game held, but that potential will never be realized. The minis, no matter how "historically accurate" they were, never looked "cool" or "interesting" and the rules and game software never seemed polished enough to leave beta. Now it seems it will be stuck this way forever.
I wish that more people had given the game a chance, sure, but I understand why many didn't. I very nearly ignored it as being simply an overpriced flash game. If I understand the email I've received from the game's designer, it will live on as a community supported game with assistance from the original design team (reminds me of what's going on with Decipher's Star Wars CCG) even if the game dies as a commercial venture. Of course this proves what we all know. Since they won't be selling plastic anymore, it will basically just be a video game.
Anyway, That's my first post on these forums. Maybe I'll pick up something else, but not likely. I'll probably just stick to playing board games instead.
I'm one of the forumites over at the Ex illis forums. No- no- no need for violence now. I'm not here to preach. While I personally thought the game had a lot of potential, I was always concerned about the bugginess of the software, the marketing hype, and the fans' seeming inability to recognize the flaws with their beloved game........
very well said. i'm sorry that it appears the game you enjoy is now joining the ranks of the defunct as i don't generally wish that on any gamer in our small community. also, thank you for proving what i thought was impossible... that not all ex illis players are rabid lemmings.
Buzzsaw wrote:While some people oddly seem happy about this, this would seem to be just another bad sign in a season of bad signs for the hobby as a whole.
To be honest, I don't see a few small companies going belly up as particularly indicative of the state of the hobby as a whole. Small wargaming or miniatures companies are popping up constantly... while others are burning out. Most small businesses, not just the hobby-related ones, don't last more than a few years.
I would suspect that would be becoming even more evident with the growth of internet-based industry... it's becoming steadily easier to launch a business in whatever strikes your fancy, without any real need to actually learn a great deal about actually running a business first... which, unfortunately, generally leads to failure. From what I've seen over the years, an awful lot of hobby-related businesses are started by hobbyists who have an idea, but not necessarily a lot of business-savvy.
While WF is doing strange things, and Ex-Illis never really got started, Privateer is still plowing along despite all the knocks, small miniature manufacturers are popping up faster than you can say 'Sculpt me something with boobs!', print-on-demand services and sites like Kickstarter are making it easier all the time for that guy with the idea to get it out there for the public to enjoy... or not, and the slowly growing public perception of wargaming (fueled admittedly in large part by the growth of GW) means fewer strange looks from Joe Notawargamer when you try to explain to him just what it is you do with your spare time.
To my mind, times have never been better for the hobby.
To be fair, Privateer Press didn't start under the auspices of our
current economy. They had a customer base before things
went south. However, I suppose one could argue that they
were able to relaunch their game in the midst of this recession,
which is kind of a scary prospect.
At Gencon the year they launched Ex-Illis, if I recall correctly,
the swag bag was positively sparse. I know that's more of an
anecdotal thing, but to me it seemed as if there weren't
going to be many new lures for my gamer dollars. Maybe I'm
wrong, but it was the impression that I got.
groundedcontrol wrote:The minis, no matter how "historically accurate" they were, never looked "cool" or "interesting"
This was always my view of it. The miniatures showed sculpting proficiency, but had no character. Perhaps the in-house paintjobs were also to blame at least in part.
Well said, and I am sorry for the loss of your favorite wargame.
I LOVED warzone, even with some of its crappy minis, and was really bummed when they went belly-up so I know your pain.
@Inasaniak
I totally agree. The hobby is better now than ever. Companies come and go, but the big games with the best minis (IMO) are constantly improving and expanding.
@Thread
Ex Illis just seemed kind of lame to me. I feel bad that those who went into it lost their investment, but that is the risk of business. As Insaniak said, MOST businesses fail. It happens every day.
The game's minis did nothing for me and most of them looked pretty cheap. I have NO desire to play without dice or tape measures or whatever. Why would I? I LIKE analog gaming. I LIKE throwing dice. I LIKE using a tape measure. If I wanted to play a video game, I would. I don't. I like hanging out with my friends and playing a game with real minis on real terrain.
So I am not surprised that this didn't work at all and honestly, am not upset. Stinks for the fans and those who risked their time and money on the venture, but maybe next go-around they'll do it better and have a successful game.
I'll admit what killed them though was the whole computer thing. Not so much implementing it, but the fact that you had to pay some sort of monthly fee was just the killer. I mean, most people were thrown off by the computer thing already, paying for it was just putting the nail in the coffin. Though I hate to kind of rub it in though, at least they tried to come up with a new system of wargaming...
Still, I'll see if people are having clearance sales on the minis, or that modular gameboard. Some good looking stuff, to say the least.
@groundedcontrol: Well said, and sorry to hear the prediciment you're in.
It's a real shame they went under; especially since they were brave enough to try something new - though that 'new' was something that I also couldn't get on board with.
Wargaming is expensive enough, and you take overpriced minis that are of less quality and then try and charge a monthly fee on top of requiring a computer/iPad? The target demographic here is not a wealthy group.
To be honest, their initial idea of using all the mobile computing to enhance wargaming isn't a bad one.
Just recently Fantasy Flight Games released a helper app for their Arkham Horror boardgame.
In concept, it's not a bad idea. However, their execution of it was instead of making a good miniatures game at its core, then making the app a fun and interesting extension of the game, they made it into a required component that took some choice, or "gameplay", out of the game.
Buzzsaw wrote:While some people oddly seem happy about this, this would seem to be just another bad sign in a season of bad signs for the hobby as a whole.
To be honest, I don't see a few small companies going belly up as particularly indicative of the state of the hobby as a whole. Small wargaming or miniatures companies are popping up constantly... while others are burning out. Most small businesses, not just the hobby-related ones, don't last more than a few years.
I would suspect that would be becoming even more evident with the growth of internet-based industry... it's becoming steadily easier to launch a business in whatever strikes your fancy, without any real need to actually learn a great deal about actually running a business first... which, unfortunately, generally leads to failure. From what I've seen over the years, an awful lot of hobby-related businesses are started by hobbyists who have an idea, but not necessarily a lot of business-savvy.
While WF is doing strange things, and Ex-Illis never really got started, Privateer is still plowing along despite all the knocks, small miniature manufacturers are popping up faster than you can say 'Sculpt me something with boobs!', print-on-demand services and sites like Kickstarter are making it easier all the time for that guy with the idea to get it out there for the public to enjoy... or not, and the slowly growing public perception of wargaming (fueled admittedly in large part by the growth of GW) means fewer strange looks from Joe Notawargamer when you try to explain to him just what it is you do with your spare time.
To my mind, times have never been better for the hobby.
I think that a lot of start ups immediately want the success of GW and PP and act like they are larger than they are or can possibly sustain themselves to be.
Like you say hobbyists wanting to get into the biz but not having any real stucture, and heres the thing, no back up to tell them to slow up.
I have no idea how long the Ex-illis guys were gestating their idea but it wasn't long enough and I suspect that they had no savvy experts asking them to back up their ideas.
Buzzsaw wrote:While some people oddly seem happy about this, this would seem to be just another bad sign in a season of bad signs for the hobby as a whole.
I don't think anyone's happy, per se. The closest to happy is "satisfaction"; in as critics who saw a bad core design see that feeling borne out by events. Rightfully so, might I add.
A game that's intrinsically flawed in concept coming swiftly to it's inexorable conclusion is not a bad sign for the hobby as a whole, it's simply how capitalism works.
Vertrucio wrote:To be honest, their initial idea of using all the mobile computing to enhance wargaming isn't a bad one.
Just recently Fantasy Flight Games released a helper app for their Arkham Horror boardgame.
In concept, it's not a bad idea. However, their execution of it was instead of making a good miniatures game at its core, then making the app a fun and interesting extension of the game, they made it into a required component that took some choice, or "gameplay", out of the game.
Exactly. The problem with Ex-Illis is not that it's computer-assisted gaming, it's that they let the computer assistance limit the game, instead of the other way around. Maybe someday I'll have the opportunity to put my ideas about computer assisted gaming done right into practice, or maybe someone will beat me to it, but Ex-Illis was not it.
groundedcontrol wrote:Anyway, That's my first post on these forums. Maybe I'll pick up something else, but not likely. I'll probably just stick to playing board games instead.
There are other great tabletop games. You could let this be your wargaming epitaph, and it's understandable, but it also could be how you learned about some of the other great games that are out.
Reecius wrote:You had to pay a monthly fee???!?!?!
Wow, what a bad idea.
Wow.
Wargaming is expensive enough, and you take overpriced minis that are of less quality and then try and charge a monthly fee on top of requiring a computer/iPad? The target demographic here is not a wealthy group.
What an incredibly bad idea.
I don't believe that's correct. That software is/was completely free, and I never remember that changing. You needed to register your purchased miniatures of course, but that was it.
Ah, OK. Yeah a monthly fee would be incredibly bad. That makes the barrier to entry that much higher. It is already a daunting task to get into wargaming.
Buzzsaw wrote:While some people oddly seem happy about this, this would seem to be just another bad sign in a season of bad signs for the hobby as a whole.
To be honest, I don't see a few small companies going belly up as particularly indicative of the state of the hobby as a whole. Small wargaming or miniatures companies are popping up constantly... while others are burning out. Most small businesses, not just the hobby-related ones, don't last more than a few years.
I would suspect that would be becoming even more evident with the growth of internet-based industry... it's becoming steadily easier to launch a business in whatever strikes your fancy, without any real need to actually learn a great deal about actually running a business first... which, unfortunately, generally leads to failure. From what I've seen over the years, an awful lot of hobby-related businesses are started by hobbyists who have an idea, but not necessarily a lot of business-savvy.
While WF is doing strange things, and Ex-Illis never really got started, Privateer is still plowing along despite all the knocks, small miniature manufacturers are popping up faster than you can say 'Sculpt me something with boobs!', print-on-demand services and sites like Kickstarter are making it easier all the time for that guy with the idea to get it out there for the public to enjoy... or not, and the slowly growing public perception of wargaming (fueled admittedly in large part by the growth of GW) means fewer strange looks from Joe Notawargamer when you try to explain to him just what it is you do with your spare time.
To my mind, times have never been better for the hobby.
I'm genuinely curious, what prompts you to remark that "times have never been better for the hobby"?
I should also clarify: when I said "a season of bad signs for the hobby as a whole", I'm not primarily referencing the closing of several smaller companies. Rather I'm referencing what I have been led to believe by various posters regarding GW's sales volume being flat or even in slight decline of the long term.
Beyond that, while many people have correctly pointed out the shortcomings of Ex-Illis from their perspective, I think it's worth pointing out the capacity of a healthy market to support niche players. By way of somewhat silly example, consider the market for candy bars: though I personally dislike coconut, I can think of 3 candy bars involving coconut on the market today off the top of my head (Mounds, Almost Joy and Zagnut).
Now, while that may seem a facile comparison, I'm trying to point out that in a healthy market, like candy bars (no pun intended), especially a market served by the internet, the existence of niche tastes, and the ability of these niche manufacturers to find receptive consumers, can be indicative of overall health. I can go online, or to a place like the wonderful Economy Candy and get crazy stuff like a Sky Bar, French Chew or a Zero Bar.
Now, like I said, that's a facile analogy (and totally not one I used because I wanted to work "Zagnut" into a post); but there is a significant difference between companies failing because they cannot find an audience, and companies failing because the marketplace they are entering into is undergoing contraction. As I should have made clearer in my first post, my impression is that (separate and in addition to Ex-Illis' failings whatever they may be) the marketplace itself is suffering. This, of course, is not based on some intimate knowledge of market numbers, and it's quite possible I have been led astray by certain posts and the overall feeling of hostility towards GW at my own FLGS. I welcome any contrary information.
Miniature gaming is a niche marked from the start, and it does support many niche-games.
Chocolate is a bad analogy because women need it to live, but even in the chocolate marked, if I tried to launch a wet-dog-flavored chocolate bar, it would probably (hopefully) flop
Buzzsaw wrote:As I should have made clearer in my first post, my impression is that (separate and in addition to Ex-Illis' failings whatever they may be) the marketplace itself is suffering. This, of course, is not based on some intimate knowledge of market numbers, and it's quite possible I have been led astray by certain posts and the overall feeling of hostility towards GW at my own FLGS. I welcome any contrary information.
It kinda sounds here like you equate the wargaming market with GW. You do know people aren't required to have a GW army before they move on to something else, right?
Buzzsaw wrote:I'm genuinely curious, what prompts you to remark that "times have never been better for the hobby"?
The things I mentioned in the preceding paragraph, for starters.
GW's sales being a little flat, or people being grumpy with them, are not at all indicative of the health of the hobby market. GW has been having flat sales periods, and people have been complaining about their behaviour, for decades.
There's a difference between something failing because the market can't support niche players, and something failing because it's just not particularly attractive to potential buyers.
Coconut chocolate bars sell regardless of your personal liking of them because enough other people like coconut to support their sales. That doesn't automatically mean that a chocolate bar of some other flavour won't fail... and that failing won't in itself be indicative of the overall health of the chocolate bar market. It would quite possibly just be because people didn't want to buy that particular flavour.
I don't feel any kind of schadenfreude for their failing, but this really comes as no surprise at all. Nor do I feel like it's a pity we're losing them simply because they tried something different. They really looked to me like a company that was neither giving themselves good criticism internally nor taking to heart external criticism. If you want to try something different, you need to hold yourself to a high standard to make sure you aren't deluding yourself about what you're working on.
I do feel sorry for people who bought into the game though.
@groundedcontrol
Well, you can use your minis (at least some of them) with Kings of War, a system that`s quite open to minis from other companies and the rules are free, so no risk for you there.
@business
To many companies competing in such times as these and some with ideas that might work for online games but not TT is definitely not a sign of the TT hobby being in distress, but of too many people not having a micron of business experience.
asmith wrote:Ghost studios was the manufacturer for both companies. To early to tell, but the two announcements might be related.
I am making this up, but maybe a chinese molding company wants to get directly involved in selling minis?
I suspect they are. Not because of any conspiracy, but because if you make a massive number of minis in China and they don't sell, then you've got them in your warehouse and nothing in your bank account to pay the manufacturer. If you make the minis yourself, or locally, then if the game doesn't sell you can just stop making them and not have a massive debt hanging round your neck.
DoomOnYou72 wrote:Dont neccessarily think it was a flawed idea, just one that was too far ahead of its time. When items such as ipads are in more common usage then it maybe it might have some potential. For the most part many people said the same thing about games being released on pdfs 10 years ago and now look at it. There are entire companies that exist off making or distributing PDFs.
People print out PDFs if they want to so you don't need to carry around a computer/tablet or whatever.
The advantage of digitising rulebooks is that you can distribute them cheaply online, and have lots and lots of them in a small package. Most people, when they go out to play a game, only play one game and don't need to carry craptons of books from other games with them.
In that situation the laptop/tablet/iPad becomes a liability -- it's just an extra piece of expensive equipment to drop off the edge of the table or get stolen or run out of batteries.
Rackham went down after years of screwing over its fans. Heldorado got withdrawn - a European firm trying to break into the US market and failing. GW announced falling turnover and reduced profitability (with the implication of poorer than expected sales of 8th edition which received a radical overhaul which spectacularly cheesed of existing players of the game - although arguably being more attractive to new players). WF got diddled by their Chinese partner (an if reports are correct were run by a "naive" founder, who didnt really understand the globale market). Ex-illis is struggling with the same Chinese partner and an untried business model.
Yet, Privateer Press successfully negotiated a tricky transition of its flagship games. Mantic appear to be growing after a much better than expected first year of sales allowing them to accelerate their production schedule. Warlord Games and Perry Miniatures continue to expand their ranges and have sufficient surplus to plough back into new products....
Sure the UK and US economies are poor at the moment, and miniature gaming companies are not immune to that (much as Mr Kirby would like his shareholders to believe otherwise), but the signs are that what brought problems to the first list of companies was bad business plpans and poor management, not the "decline of the market". The latter list of companies (and the fact that GW *only* suffered a 4% decline in sales and their Dark Eldar and Tyranid releases last year actually broke previous sales records - or so Fireman Guy reported on TEW the other week) indicates that the market is still there for the "right" product. There are still a large number of gamers out there, adn they are still prepared to buy stuff they like. It is just that companies with jumpy banks, predatory Chinese suppliers, overoptimistic/market-ignorant management and lots and lots of good competition from other manufacturers out there, it is inevitable that *some* companies will fail.
In a booming economy, any idiot can make money. In a declining economy, it just takes talent, brains and a fair bit of luck.
At least that's my reading of the "industry wide" implications of these recent events.
Either that or our Chinese Overlords are about to take over the planet....
Yet, Privateer Press successfully negotiated a tricky transition of its flagship games. Mantic appear to be growing after a much better than expected first year of sales allowing them to accelerate their production schedule. Warlord Games and Perry Miniatures continue to expand their ranges and have sufficient surplus to plough back into new products....
Do these companies have:
A). A close relationship with their customer base and an open attitude to developing their rules/products.
-or-
B). A closed off attitude to their customers and a business model that prioritises secrecy over advancement and collaboration.
Reecius wrote:You had to pay a monthly fee???!?!?!
.
No. Where did you get that idea?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ouze wrote:
groundedcontrol wrote:Anyway, That's my first post on these forums. Maybe I'll pick up something else, but not likely. I'll probably just stick to playing board games instead.
There are other great tabletop games. You could let this be your wargaming epitaph, and it's understandable, but it also could be how you learned about some of the other great games that are out.
Oh, I know. I sold them for years from my shop. Frankly I never found any real interest in any of them. I stuck mostly to "bite sized" stuff like board games. Spend sixty bucks and entertain a table of six for twenty hours each over a game's lifespan, It's certainly the best value for my gamer hours. I tried 'nids way back when, then Cygnar. I don't like spending six hours resolving a big battle, nor three resolving a skirmish. I just spend too much time waiting at the table, and I'm not too hot on that. Never mind that Wargames are generally so expensive. For just the money I spent on Ex illis (one of the less expensive systems to get started with) I could have purchased six great board games.
Well, anyhow, the point I'm trying to make is that I already know about all those other games, and I'm generally disinterested in them. They're fine games, to be sure, but so far they really aren't my thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BloodQuest wrote:
groundedcontrol wrote:It was the first wargame that my wife would even touch
That piques my curiousity. Any particular reason why?
Play time, ease of entry, and she liked the fact that it used zone movement. She's a serious board gamer, and she liked those elements which fit with what she's come to expect from good game design in tabletop board games. It didn't take very long, however, to suck her into the deep strategic elements which were present. She spent weeks whooping my ass, while I ineffectually tried to make my small army do things it wasn't meant to do.
What does this mean for the game? I've not been a player of a game when this sort of restructuring happened, so I haven't got much of an idea what to expect.
If you want any indication that the health of the industry overall is still good (especially in this economy) go over to the New Heresy Dragon thread and see how many users are willing to drop $400 on a 12" dragon mini.
Buzzsaw wrote:I'm genuinely curious, what prompts you to remark that "times have never been better for the hobby"?
The things I mentioned in the preceding paragraph, for starters.
You wrote;
insaniak wrote:While WF is doing strange things, and Ex-Illis never really got started, Privateer is still plowing along despite all the knocks, small miniature manufacturers are popping up faster than you can say 'Sculpt me something with boobs!', print-on-demand services and sites like Kickstarter are making it easier all the time for that guy with the idea to get it out there for the public to enjoy... or not, and the slowly growing public perception of wargaming (fueled admittedly in large part by the growth of GW) means fewer strange looks from Joe Notawargamer when you try to explain to him just what it is you do with your spare time.
Sooo... your remark is prompted by;
a) Several smaller companies going "splat" (WF, Bastion, and the unmentioned Rackham),
b) Privateer Press not going "splat", and
c) The ease with which, aided by new technology and especially the power of internet sales, new firms can enter the market.
The two industry specific things (a and b) would seem to be more along the line of neutral, while the third factor (c) is unrelated to the hobby, merely a tangential application of technological development from other industries. Certainly it's a good thing that the barriers to entry into the marketplace are lowering, no question. But the barriers to entry are only half the issue: the barriers to becoming a seller of buggy whips are almost certainly less then becoming a start-up hobby company, but I would hesitate to describe that market as "never been better".
As for "the slowly growing public perception of wargaming", all I can do is shrug and say "Wha?"
I do apologize if the above sounds a bit surly, but here's a case where I was really hoping you were going to prove my supposition wrong with a blizzard of financial stats. I was hoping that the rejoinder would be "oh, Privateer is showing steady growth with Q4 revenues up 3%, Wyrd is going great guns and just inked a deal with Diamond, etc etc."
insaniak wrote:GW's sales being a little flat, or people being grumpy with them, are not at all indicative of the health of the hobby market. GW has been having flat sales periods, and people have been complaining about their behaviour, for decades.
There's a difference between something failing because the market can't support niche players, and something failing because it's just not particularly attractive to potential buyers.
Coconut chocolate bars sell regardless of your personal liking of them because enough other people like coconut to support their sales. That doesn't automatically mean that a chocolate bar of some other flavour won't fail... and that failing won't in itself be indicative of the overall health of the chocolate bar market. It would quite possibly just be because people didn't want to buy that particular flavour.
Hmmm, I think someone put it better as;
there is a significant difference between companies failing because they cannot find an audience, and companies failing because the marketplace they are entering into is undergoing contraction. As I should have made clearer in my first post, my impression is that (separate and in addition to Ex-Illis' failings whatever they may be) the marketplace itself is suffering.
The issue isn't about one particular new flavor failing; the question is whether all the new entrants are failing and the old guard are taking losses, or are select poorly thought out products failing while other new entries prosper. The former would seem to indicate a market in decline, the latter a healthy action of supply and demand. That said, my use of GW figures is like the drunk looking for his keys only under the streetlights; it's not necessarily helpful, it's just the only information I am aware of.
All this said, the post by Osbad would seem to provide the information that I'm looking for; the industry is in trouble and undergoing contraction as a function of global economic decline, but there are bright spots. That more or less conforms to what I had supposed, but I was hoping Insaniak had some secret store of happy news.
ancientsociety wrote:If you want any indication that the health of the industry overall is still good (especially in this economy) go over to the New Heresy Dragon thread and see how many users are willing to drop $400 on a 12" dragon mini.
No offense, but that's like saying (for example) the auto-industry must be doing fine, because the Bugatti Veyron has been sold out. Or, perhaps more familiarly, consider that even in the dark times of the late 90's, mint condition copies of Action Comics #1 still sold for a fortune, even as the market imploded. These anecdotes make for fine vignettes, but they're just not a good general barometer, as the very highest end of a market can often be insensitive to downward trends at the more modest reaches.
Sooo... your remark is prompted by;
a) Several smaller companies going "splat" (WF, Bastion, and the unmentioned Rackham),
b) Privateer Press not going "splat", and
c) The ease with which, aided by new technology and especially the power of internet sales, new firms can enter the market.
The two industry specific things (a and b) would seem to be more along the line of neutral, while the third factor (c) is unrelated to the hobby, merely a tangential application of technological development from other industries. Certainly it's a good thing that the barriers to entry into the marketplace are lowering, no question. But the barriers to entry are only half the issue: the barriers to becoming a seller of buggy whips are almost certainly less then becoming a start-up hobby company, but I would hesitate to describe that market as "never been better".
As for "the slowly growing public perception of wargaming", all I can do is shrug and say "Wha?"
I do apologize if the above sounds a bit surly, but here's a case where I was really hoping you were going to prove my supposition wrong with a blizzard of financial stats. I was hoping that the rejoinder would be "oh, Privateer is showing steady growth with Q4 revenues up 3%, Wyrd is going great guns and just inked a deal with Diamond, etc etc."
Actually I would agree with Insaniak. In the last few years a bunch of companies have either grown or really broken through:
Warlord
Perrys
Mantic
Wyrd Miniatures
Victrix
Immortal Miniatures
So that is six rather impressive success stories as compared to two pretty large failures. Sounds like a pretty good net gain for the hobby to me.
asmith wrote:Ghost studios was the manufacturer for both companies. To early to tell, but the two announcements might be related.
I am making this up, but maybe a chinese molding company wants to get directly involved in selling minis?
I suspect they are. Not because of any conspiracy, but because if you make a massive number of minis in China and they don't sell, then you've got them in your warehouse and nothing in your bank account to pay the manufacturer. If you make the minis yourself, or locally, then if the game doesn't sell you can just stop making them and not have a massive debt hanging round your neck.
The cost of purchasing the manufacturing equipment is much higher than the amount of money you would have tied up in unsold product in a warehouse. The cost of bringing manufacturing in house is more than most companies will be able to handle.
Sure the UK and US economies are poor at the moment, and miniature gaming companies are not immune to that (much as Mr Kirby would like his shareholders to believe otherwise), but the signs are that what brought problems to the first list of companies was bad business plpans and poor management, not the "decline of the market". The latter list of companies (and the fact that GW *only* suffered a 4% decline in sales and their Dark Eldar and Tyranid releases last year actually broke previous sales records - or so Fireman Guy reported on TEW the other week) indicates that the market is still there for the "right" product. There are still a large number of gamers out there, adn they are still prepared to buy stuff they like. It is just that companies with jumpy banks, predatory Chinese suppliers, overoptimistic/market-ignorant management and lots and lots of good competition from other manufacturers out there, it is inevitable that *some* companies will fail.
Almost makes you wonder if GW is shooting themselves in the foot w/ this stream of marine book releases. People aren't necessarily buying the faction specific models, indeed I know more than a few people that have basically said "Well, I'm fielding Green Blood Angels" or "My Space Wolves are Ultramarine Blue", using an existing space marine army to field a new chapter. This easily explains the decline in sales despite the 2 Xenos books doing better than expected.
Actually I would agree with Insaniak. In the last few years a bunch of companies have either grown or really broken through:
Warlord
Perrys
Mantic
Wyrd Miniatures
Victrix
Immortal Miniatures
So that is six rather impressive success stories as compared to two pretty large failures. Sounds like a pretty good net gain for the hobby to me.
Indeed. And you'll notice some key differences between the companies that succeeded and the ones that failed. The ones that succeeded provided quality product, be it miniatures, rules or both. Contrast this to the two that failed, that provided sub-par or questionable product and had a history of difficulty running their businesses. WF has been in trouble for a long time now, plagued by a slow release schedule, delays etc. from almost the very beginning. Bastion had been dealing with poor/struggling sales from the very beginning. Its not surprising or unexpected that they went out of business.
I think the hobby gaming industry has been inundated with new product over the last few years, and the ammount of success has been surprising.
There have been plenty of awesome (and terrible) games/miniature companies go out of business before, but more and more are sticking around now-a-days because the market is finally getting big enough to support them.
You've got a bunch of people scrambling for a place to stand and until the island is big enough, some companies are going to drown. And when a new company finds purchase, that's going to affect everyone else too.
ancientsociety wrote:If you want any indication that the health of the industry overall is still good (especially in this economy) go over to the New Heresy Dragon thread and see how many users are willing to drop $400 on a 12" dragon mini.
I'd rather wait and see how many actually spend said money.
Buzzsaw wrote:I do apologize if the above sounds a bit surly, but here's a case where I was really hoping you were going to prove my supposition wrong with a blizzard of financial stats. I was hoping that the rejoinder would be "oh, Privateer is showing steady growth with Q4 revenues up 3%, Wyrd is going great guns and just inked a deal with Diamond, etc etc."
To be fair, you're basing your "the industry is in dire straits" standpoint heavily upon the demise of two companies that were either mismanaged or did not have a user friendly business model, and who are both linked by use of the same manufacturer. While I don't believe the industry to be "booming," it's also clearly in a pretty strong position right now given the quality and variety of models that we're seeing come out of new companies. Any man can starve to death in a grocery store if he spends all of his time in the section with the mops and the Drain-O. Just because Bastion and WGF have reached their corporate demise doesn't mean that the landscape of the industry right now is primed for failure (or no more than it usually is for a niche market).
ancientsociety wrote:If you want any indication that the health of the industry overall is still good (especially in this economy) go over to the New Heresy Dragon thread and see how many users are willing to drop $400 on a 12" dragon mini.
The problem though comes from having enough of the OMFG I AM GETING ONE ! one 111! and other expressions of interest converted into sales and a sale is only complete once cold hard cash is in your grubby palms less expenses, taxes, marketing postage, materials etc.
Andy has only just sold his limited (1000) run of Hurn and they were announced in the mid part of last year. Looks good, but consider that he has been struggling for cash and you see how difficult it is.
What's gone wrong with wargames is that a number of companies are trying to copy GW's success and build a business that ties the customer into a proprietary set of rules using proprietary models.
GW achieved this successfully because it grew out of a more general offering which involved licensed products, RPGs, boxed games, character figures, and other things. This was like the first stage booster on a big rocket, it got the business high enough that they managed to ditch the other crap (Specialist Games, etc) and carry on flying with the two core products. LoTR was the second stage booster that propelled them into the stratosphere.
They also had the momentum of 25+ years of sales to veterans, who helped to sell the core products through word of mouth.
GW itself has not been doing too well for a few years, so maybe their business model has flaws.
Anyway, a number of other companies have tried to follow the same trajectory, and not reached the same altitude, because they launched from a different location and didn't have the powerful boosters.
If you look away from the GW wannabe companies, things are pretty good. There's more ranges, in more scales, in more materials, than ever before. On top of a wide range of paid for rules, many of which are professionally published, high quality books, there is a crapton of free rules, and a good selection of rules available as downloads.
The number of historical and fantasy/SF figures is better than anything I remember in 35 years of wargaming. There are loads of shows, loads of clubs, loads of websites and loads of small companies.
When GW kicked off, lots of manufacturers, not much in the way of rules. So out comes Warhammer, a single, generic Fantasy Ruleset. This does pretty well, over time becoming a self defining Fantasy setting, complete with countries, empires, races etc. GW effectively redefined the market, and thanks to the popularity (and arguably availability I suppose) of their rules, came to dominate it. Without GW, we simply would not have the Hobby Wargames Market as it is now. Yet thanks to GW's success, the market is so big (well, for a niche market) that they cannot fill it all in a cost effective manner (hence the relative sidelining of SG). And what happens? Those gamers brought into the fold by GW at a young age still enjoy their particular niche, and set up companies of their own to fulfil said niche they know and love.
I guess this is the natural way of things. GW maintain their dominance through sheer market presence. Go into a GW store, and unlike any other Hobby Games store, it's a single unified brand, and a lure like no other into the wider Hobby. Most people continue with GW games for the duration of their involvement. Some marry this with other games and indeed styles of games. Fewer even abandon GW altogether, finding a particular niche within a niche that is really their style.
Interesting thing here of course, is given another 30ish years, will we see a serious competitor to GW, and lots of little companies, or something like a mixed bug Nid list of a market, with everything from tiddlers up to a single mahoosive Bio-Titan.
Kilkrazy wrote:What's gone wrong with wargames is that a number of companies are trying to copy GW's success and build a business that ties the customer into a proprietary set of rules using proprietary models.
GW achieved this successfully because it grew out of a more general offering which involved licensed products, RPGs, boxed games, character figures, and other things. This was like the first stage booster on a big rocket, it got the business high enough that they managed to ditch the other crap (Specialist Games, etc) and carry on flying with the two core products. LoTR was the second stage booster that propelled them into the stratosphere.
They also had the momentum of 25+ years of sales to veterans, who helped to sell the core products through word of mouth.
GW itself has not been doing too well for a few years, so maybe their business model has flaws.
Anyway, a number of other companies have tried to follow the same trajectory, and not reached the same altitude, because they launched from a different location and didn't have the powerful boosters.
If you look away from the GW wannabe companies, things are pretty good. There's more ranges, in more scales, in more materials, than ever before. On top of a wide range of paid for rules, many of which are professionally published, high quality books, there is a crapton of free rules, and a good selection of rules available as downloads.
The number of historical and fantasy/SF figures is better than anything I remember in 35 years of wargaming. There are loads of shows, loads of clubs, loads of websites and loads of small companies.
...So, what you're saying is that Privateer (makers of Warmachine/Hordes) and Wyrd (Malifaux) are unsuccessful? And companies like Peter Pig, Resistant Rooster, Old Glory, Old Crow, etc. are more successful? You need to re-examine the market I think. The 'wannabe' companies like Privateer Press and Malifaux are the ones that have been successful. The other companies out there that have released minis of limited appeal, or historical miniatures in various scales have not seen the same level of success. Indeed, most gamers haven't heard of most of these companies, while Wyrd/Malifaux and Privateer/Warmahordes are fairly well known in gaming circles. This is in part because of the huge overlap in offerings between the various manufacturers. There is nothing to set one apart from the other. Likewise, most of the rules which you claim are 'professionally published' are not. They are usually printed at Staples or Kinkos and held together by a spiral binding or a trap binder. And again, most people haven't heard of those free rules. If I walked into any of the 5-6+ local gaming stores on any day of the week, and ask if anyone was up for a game of Johnny Reb III, none of the gamers would know what it was, and thats one of the more popular ACW rulesets. Contrast this to me asking about Flames of War, Warmahordes, Malifaux, Uncharted Seas, Firestorm Armada, Dystopian Wars, Anima Tactics, etc. and I would get more than a few hits.
The small companies only exist because they are small. Run by a couple guys out of a garage, things made to order, because they don't have the volume of sales needed to conduct business otherwise.
If I might be so bold, I think that's the very point he's making.
Single Property Games, like Malifaux, GW, PP are the minority with the majority share of the market. If you want to get ahead, you do more genetic models, such as your ACW, where although competition can be arguably fiercer, it's still an easier market to break for rules and models, than creating your own world from scratch.
Buzzsaw wrote:Sooo... your remark is prompted by;
a) Several smaller companies going "splat" (WF, Bastion, and the unmentioned Rackham),
b) Privateer Press not going "splat", and
c) The ease with which, aided by new technology and especially the power of internet sales, new firms can enter the market.
Actually I would agree with Insaniak. In the last few years a bunch of companies have either grown or really broken through:
Warlord
Perrys
Mantic
Wyrd Miniatures
Victrix
Immortal Miniatures
So that is six rather impressive success stories as compared to two pretty large failures. Sounds like a pretty good net gain for the hobby to me.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but you're being rather selective in your reading; first, you'll note the mention of 3 companies in the post you quoted (WF, Bastion, Rackham), so which 2 are the "two pretty large failures"? Moreover, your statement exists in a vacuum, where you're arbitrarily setting the number of failures and comparing it against an equally arbitrary number of successes. Does anyone actually have figures on companies that have tried to entered the market and failed? What metric is being applied to push companies in the "success" column? In the end the flaw in the above comment dovetails into the comment below;
SkaerKrow wrote:
Buzzsaw wrote:I do apologize if the above sounds a bit surly, but here's a case where I was really hoping you were going to prove my supposition wrong with a blizzard of financial stats. I was hoping that the rejoinder would be "oh, Privateer is showing steady growth with Q4 revenues up 3%, Wyrd is going great guns and just inked a deal with Diamond, etc etc."
To be fair, you're basing your "the industry is in dire straits" standpoint heavily upon the demise of two companies that were either mismanaged or did not have a user friendly business model, and who are both linked by use of the same manufacturer. While I don't believe the industry to be "booming," it's also clearly in a pretty strong position right now given the quality and variety of models that we're seeing come out of new companies. Any man can starve to death in a grocery store if he spends all of his time in the section with the mops and the Drain-O. Just because Bastion and WGF have reached their corporate demise doesn't mean that the landscape of the industry right now is primed for failure (or no more than it usually is for a niche market).
First, my initial supposition, rather then relying on these two incidents directly, was far more heavily influenced by the statement in the news account linked in the first post that pondered "It leaves me wondering what the financial state of the industry is as a whole." In retrospect I have no idea if that statement was prompted by anything more then the incidents mentioned, but at first glance I presumed it was (and Osbad's statement would seem to confirm).
Second, I realize the problem here is more an issue of "failure to communicate" and, again, looking where the light is rather then where the answer is: I'm looking for financial information, which it's pretty clear no-one really has. So people (as above), trying to answer, are supplying their own metrics. The only problem, of course, is that the metrics being used are not ones that I'm looking for!
Since at this point I seem to just be pointing out logic errors, I'll wait for quarterly financial time to investigate the situation further and for now bow out and just reiterate one point;
Like them or not, this is a real pity for the industry, as we would like to see more risk-taking like this, not less. My gut tells me that it could be a while before we see a similar conjunction of talents and skills, have a crack at something like this again.
yeah,
I'm not interested in a TableTop game that wants to be locked down tight like a board game but keep the money making aspect of a CMG... and forces you to use a computer to track your purchases in game.
Imagine if the EVIL GW only unlocked parts of your codex (the book you already bought) once the model was released and after they confirmed online that you bought it!
I mean Bastion let you use Emissarius for free for a month...
So they basically said "you can use a proxy, we'll unlock him on your account for now, but you have to buy him later..." WTF.
They basically are admitting that the actual models are not a important bit of their game, a he-man action figure will do...
..
and while I wasn't interested in their game, some of their models look cool, I thought Emissarius looked cool but flawed but would make excellent conversion fodder for a massive GUO...
I'd still like one if anyone see's a company yard sale!
Buzzsaw wrote:Sooo... your remark is prompted by;
a) Several smaller companies going "splat" (WF, Bastion, and the unmentioned Rackham),
b) Privateer Press not going "splat", and
c) The ease with which, aided by new technology and especially the power of internet sales, new firms can enter the market.
Actually I would agree with Insaniak. In the last few years a bunch of companies have either grown or really broken through:
Warlord
Perrys
Mantic
Wyrd Miniatures
Victrix
Immortal Miniatures
So that is six rather impressive success stories as compared to two pretty large failures. Sounds like a pretty good net gain for the hobby to me.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but you're being rather selective in your reading; first, you'll note the mention of 3 companies in the post you quoted (WF, Bastion, Rackham), so which 2 are the "two pretty large failures"? Moreover, your statement exists in a vacuum, where you're arbitrarily setting the number of failures and comparing it against an equally arbitrary number of successes. Does anyone actually have figures on companies that have tried to entered the market and failed? What metric is being applied to push companies in the "success" column? In the end the flaw in the above comment dovetails into the comment below;
My point is simply to point out that there has been a lot of growth in the industry in the last two or three years. Increased diversity and availability. You can include Rackham in the failure list if you want and we still have a much more diverse and growing hobby than we had three years ago. Either way it doesn't look dire to me at all. It seems that smart businessmen can create new and successful miniature companies.
To me it looks like Bastion had a pretty atrocious idea and failed and frankly Wargames Factory was just run poorly and overextended themselves and ran into money trouble. I don't see either situation as pointing towards the hobby in general being in dire straights at all. I certainly could be wrong but it looks like we are already in a new golden age of miniatures.
It has become very easy for companies to be started up and with this increased ease of entrance into the market I think we are going to see a lot more successes and a lot more failures as people try different things to see how they work out. That is good news for us because we will continue to see more new ideas (both games and miniatures).
Oh and don't forget Spartan Games (I gave you Rackham so I want Spartan Games put on the success list ).
Buzzsaw wrote:Not to put too fine a point on it, but you're being rather selective in your reading; first, you'll note the mention of 3 companies in the post you quoted (WF, Bastion, Rackham), so which 2 are the "two pretty large failures"? Moreover, your statement exists in a vacuum, where you're arbitrarily setting the number of failures and comparing it against an equally arbitrary number of successes. Does anyone actually have figures on companies that have tried to entered the market and failed? What metric is being applied to push companies in the "success" column? In the end the flaw in the above comment dovetails into the comment below;
My point is simply to point out that there has been a lot of growth in the industry in the last two or three years. Increased diversity and availability. You can include Rackham in the failure list if you want and we still have a much more diverse and growing hobby than we had three years ago. Either way it doesn't look dire to me at all. It seems that smart businessmen can create new and successful miniature companies.
Buzzsaw wrote:Since at this point I seem to just be pointing out logic errors, I'll wait for quarterly financial time to investigate the situation further and for now bow out
While I realize that trying to point out a logical error on the internet is may be like preaching the Gospel at a bath house, I can't resist just one final time (then, seriously, zippin mah lip);
You're pairing "diverse" with "growing" as if the first is evidence of the second. To illustrate, in 1920, there were approximately 200 American Car manufacturers, today there three*. If were were to apply your logic to those facts, the obvious inference is that there must have been far more cars sold in 1920 then now. (Just to be clear, in 2007 there were 134.5 million cars registered in the US, in 1920, there were 106 million people as recorded by the census.)
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying you can't get from your evidence to your conclusion. More importantly, don't let the number of games be confused with the really important issue: the number of players (and by extension, the amount of revenue). This is what really interests me, and one of the pieces of anecdotal evidence that gives me such pause: at least where I game, I'm just not seeing new players. But that's an issue for another thread I suppose...
*These numbers are very soft, with some pegging the number of "American" car companies at say 40, but some sources also claim there were around 1800 car manufacturers at the turn of the twentieth century. Sufficed to say, there used to be at least an order of magnitude more automobile companies then there are now.
Ok I get what your saying. I was not trying to make a purely logical argument just saying that based on anecdotal evidence it looks good to me. Now obviously it is very possible that some if not all of the companies I listed above may be doing very poorly.
With private companies there is just no real way of knowing. So I guess we are agreeing to agree at this point
This threads bring out the wackiest analogies.
So the US auto industry wasn't growing by leaps and bounds in the early 20th century? Given context, volume of sales is the real meaningless number there.
Healthy, growing manufacturers clearly indicates a healthy, growing player base.
Reecius wrote:You had to pay a monthly fee???!?!?!
Wow, what a bad idea.
Wow.
Wargaming is expensive enough, and you take overpriced minis that are of less quality and then try and charge a monthly fee on top of requiring a computer/iPad? The target demographic here is not a wealthy group.
What an incredibly bad idea.
I don't believe that's correct. That software is/was completely free, and I never remember that changing. You needed to register your purchased miniatures of course, but that was it.
Huh, I swear the last time I was on the website they were offering a 90 or maybe 30 day free trial, which suggests that eventually you'd have to pay, but then again, I never actually played, =/
"Apparently their distribution tier for discounts to retailers was based on how many players you generated for the servers to see and count to your store."
does anyone know if this is actually true? mikhalia, i know you commented early on in the thread but you're probably in the best position to answer this.
Cryonicleech wrote:
Huh, I swear the last time I was on the website they were offering a 90 or maybe 30 day free trial, which suggests that eventually you'd have to pay, but then again, I never actually played, =/
The trial allowed you to proxy units for up to 30 days, after which they became inaccessible until you purchased the models for said units. There was never a monthly charge to play.
interestingly, after you activated a starter, you'd get a bunch more trials that you could choose to activate for two weeks each to playtest new army ideas before purchasing additional stuff.
I don't know if that was very clear, but I hoped it helped.
Kilkrazy wrote:What's gone wrong with wargames is that a number of companies are trying to copy GW's success and build a business that ties the customer into a proprietary set of rules using proprietary models.
GW achieved this successfully because it grew out of a more general offering which involved licensed products, RPGs, boxed games, character figures, and other things. This was like the first stage booster on a big rocket, it got the business high enough that they managed to ditch the other crap (Specialist Games, etc) and carry on flying with the two core products. LoTR was the second stage booster that propelled them into the stratosphere.
They also had the momentum of 25+ years of sales to veterans, who helped to sell the core products through word of mouth.
GW itself has not been doing too well for a few years, so maybe their business model has flaws.
Anyway, a number of other companies have tried to follow the same trajectory, and not reached the same altitude, because they launched from a different location and didn't have the powerful boosters.
If you look away from the GW wannabe companies, things are pretty good. There's more ranges, in more scales, in more materials, than ever before. On top of a wide range of paid for rules, many of which are professionally published, high quality books, there is a crapton of free rules, and a good selection of rules available as downloads.
The number of historical and fantasy/SF figures is better than anything I remember in 35 years of wargaming. There are loads of shows, loads of clubs, loads of websites and loads of small companies.
...So, what you're saying is that Privateer (makers of Warmachine/Hordes) and Wyrd (Malifaux) are unsuccessful? And companies like Peter Pig, Resistant Rooster, Old Glory, Old Crow, etc. are more successful? You need to re-examine the market I think. The 'wannabe' companies like Privateer Press and Malifaux are the ones that have been successful. The other companies out there that have released minis of limited appeal, or historical miniatures in various scales have not seen the same level of success. Indeed, most gamers haven't heard of most of these companies, while Wyrd/Malifaux and Privateer/Warmahordes are fairly well known in gaming circles. This is in part because of the huge overlap in offerings between the various manufacturers. There is nothing to set one apart from the other. Likewise, most of the rules which you claim are 'professionally published' are not. They are usually printed at Staples or Kinkos and held together by a spiral binding or a trap binder. And again, most people haven't heard of those free rules. If I walked into any of the 5-6+ local gaming stores on any day of the week, and ask if anyone was up for a game of Johnny Reb III, none of the gamers would know what it was, and thats one of the more popular ACW rulesets. Contrast this to me asking about Flames of War, Warmahordes, Malifaux, Uncharted Seas, Firestorm Armada, Dystopian Wars, Anima Tactics, etc. and I would get more than a few hits.
The small companies only exist because they are small. Run by a couple guys out of a garage, things made to order, because they don't have the volume of sales needed to conduct business otherwise.
Yes, in essence PP et all are unsuccessful in challenging GW in the arena of big, proprietary wargames. I know War Machine is fairly popular in the USA, but not as big as 40K, and it's a lot less popular in Europe.
All the companies like GW and PP fail to provide consumers with a variety of interesting products and services. Look at GW, they are brilliant if you want to play Warhammer or LoTR, and useless for anything else. PP are useless if you don't want to play Warmachine.
The small companies, however, are doing very nicely, providing a wide variety of historical, fantasy and SF models and rules. The variety is much wider, and more accessible than 20 years ago.
At the same time, these small companies are successful in the terms they have set themselves.
I don't equate success with being "biggest company". Financially, GW although they are big are not doing well.
I'm one of the forumites over at the Ex illis forums. No- no- no need for violence now. I'm not here to preach. While I personally thought the game had a lot of potential, I was always concerned about the bugginess of the software, the marketing hype, and the fans' seeming inability to recognize the flaws with their beloved game........
As an ex Confrontation player, I feel your pain. I hope you find something that you can enjoy as much in the future.
I found the Ex Illis minis very generic and bland, though the quality was impressive. I'm much more willing to risk getting into a new game if the minis show a unique style, so even if I don't end up playing I'll enjoy painting them or using the minis for another system. There was nothing there to fire the imagination.
And, purely anecdotely of course, I don't think this failure says anything at all about the overall health of the industry. I see a lot of companies having success with resin minis, allowing for cheaper startups and shipping. As long as new mini companies are jumping in to take the place of failing companies, the industry will be just fine. Hopefully some of these new owners will take a business class or two, and maybe even do a bit of market research.
I also have my aim crooked fantasy wise, I mean I loved Ilyad minis and shazam! Got some celtos and it died...Collected Confrontation for years and what a disaster! Collected Kraken and its going belly up... loved helldorado and after a deadly sleep seems something moving again? So yeah my fantasy share of disapointments is way to big!
A shame for Ex-Illis fans but to be honest this Hybrid system was neither meat or fish... I coul ignore all that if minis were great but that was not the case for me.
Well deserved ban if you ask me This thing has been going on for years and its about time it stops.
In my defense I think the curse doesnt apply to Scifi because I collect infinity for some years now and they are still doing well Just in case... I will buy very small quantities, dont want something to break down if I buy to much.
plastictrees wrote:This threads bring out the wackiest analogies.
So the US auto industry wasn't growing by leaps and bounds in the early 20th century? Given context, volume of sales is the real meaningless number there.
Healthy, growing manufacturers clearly indicates a healthy, growing player base.
Wow, I thought this thread was dead days ago. That said, this may be the most illogical post I've seen in days...
First, since the whole point of my comments was about how you can't necessarily link the number of manufacturers to the size of market, complaining that size of the market is irrelevant sorta... misses the point. But that leads to the really weird part...
Second, if we were to accept Plastic-fantastic here's idea about the importance of "Healthy, growing manufacturers" as the important metric, I guess we have to presume Plastic thinks the 1920s would end with nothing but smooth sailing...
Moving on,
Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, in essence PP et all are unsuccessful in challenging GW in the arena of big, proprietary wargames. I know War Machine is fairly popular in the USA, but not as big as 40K, and it's a lot less popular in Europe.
All the companies like GW and PP fail to provide consumers with a variety of interesting products and services. Look at GW, they are brilliant if you want to play Warhammer or LoTR, and useless for anything else. PP are useless if you don't want to play Warmachine.
The small companies, however, are doing very nicely, providing a wide variety of historical, fantasy and SF models and rules. The variety is much wider, and more accessible than 20 years ago.
At the same time, these small companies are successful in the terms they have set themselves.
I don't equate success with being "biggest company". Financially, GW although they are big are not doing well.
I think this is the real point: the more we think that GWis the hobby (as I must shamefacedly admit, was what colored my initially sour take on this news) as opposed to a part of the hobby, the more their (mainly self-inflicted) troubles lead to pessimism.
All of it gets a lot easier to take if you look at the "hobby" in the same terms as the fast food industry. If McDonalds isn't doing well, do we all freak out and think that the age of fast food is gone, just because McD's decided to start putting Barb Wire toys in Happy Meals (pointless musing: what would be worse, Barb Wire toys, or actual barbed wire? Moving on...)? No, we look at the other members of the market. If al of them are doing bad, then is time to start investing in sprouts.
Now, of course, GWwants people to think of them as the hobby, just like McDonalds presumably wants you to think of them when you think of fast food.
Just as moving beyond McDonalds leads to better eatin', moving beyond GW leads to a view with more context of the Hobby field. Besides, Everyone knows the best burger is from 5 Guys Burgers and Fries...
Who says so? Norman Osborn says so!
I totally didn't write this just so I could post that image. Nope.
Malifaux has been tempting me but I got into Hordes Trolls (espect some financial difficulties at PP)
Thanks Duncan, I have also heard they will switch to metal blisters instead of plastics... lets hope its just not one of those projects that will never kick off... Its a wait and see and we have been waiting for some time now on alkemy... crossing fingers.
In what is quickly becoming a Monty Python-esque sketch, the guys who used to work for a company that used to exist are promising news of their attempts to solidify new financial backing, on the 11th or 12th of February.
Of course this is "the deadline for solving the issue", according to one of the former team members, so it sounds to me as if a solution has not yet been found. With less than two weeks remaining before Bastion Studios finds itself carted away for a measly ninepence, I can hardly say that this news inspires hope.
None the less, one of the two loudly raving loons that are still regularly posting on their forums has made a pretty slideshow of Ex-illis artwork, in an attempt to raise support for the currently non existent "Bastion Staff".
The link to the BOW article is the same as before, as is the link to the forum thread discussing it.
If I sound a little annoyed, let it be known that I am not annoyed at the game, or the staff, but rather at one or two particularly ridicule-worthy fans. Seriously... ask them how to get realistic blood effects
may i suggest telling the creator that starting the video off with a picture of the murdered leader of one of the main current religions is not the best way to lead off a video as it is remarkably offensive? jeez...
warboss wrote:may i suggest telling the creator that starting the video off with a picture of the murdered leader of one of the main current religions is not the best way to lead off a video as it is remarkably offensive? jeez...
Yes, yes. We are aware of how you feel about Ex=Illis and their fantasy-setting pope.
Indeed. While I can understand why their decision to play in a world of actual religions in which people still believe today is a bad one, I also try to remember one fancy word: "fantasy".
Their world isn't honestly my cup of tea (I'd much rather see fantasy elements that nobody goes home believing in after a game), but I can understand why some would find the pseudo-historical elements interesting.
That said, since the opening artwork also happens to be on the box for the starter at least he's not offending anyone *new*, right?
groundedcontrol wrote:If I sound a little annoyed, let it be known that I am not annoyed at the game, or the staff, but rather at one or two particularly ridicule-worthy fans.
Looks like they have issues in giving up for lost what they surely must realize is lost already.
It's their choice to put that type of thing into their storyline, their box art, or their video. From what I read, they were really in love with the idea and with their backstory.
It's other people's choice to be offended by it. You should sort of expect that when you incorporate a current religion into your storyline, and accpept that some people may not like it. I can imagine that bit of story might not have gone over in some communities, and I can imagine some store owners might have passed on it because of that.
I wasn't aware of the image on the starter box. I didn't get it into my store because I never could get a decent explanation from the company of how the hell to demo it, and the people who were supposed to stop by to demo the game to me never showed up. Saves me from trying to liquidate dead stock. Quite happy I never invested hundreds of dollars in it.
I'm still waiting for the 3-D holographic chessgame from star wars though.
mikhaila wrote:
I wasn't aware of the image on the starter box. I didn't get it into my store because I never could get a decent explanation from the company of how the hell to demo it, and the people who were supposed to stop by to demo the game to me never showed up. Saves me from trying to liquidate dead stock. Quite happy I never invested hundreds of dollars in it.
Yeah, it's too bad. It really was a worthwhile game. Certainly worth a try if it does happen to miraculously stay alive. Of course the silver lining of not having had a "Bleeding edge knight" show up to demo it *is* particularly evident in your case, and if you didn't have any of the devices to run the software, it would be just about impossible to demonstrate in store.
The game had to overcome a lot of negativity from me to even get me to sit down and give it a try. The two problems, from my perspective as a potential buyer, were the software dominating game play, and the "setting". As I said, I just prefer to play games which don't encourage people to continue telling me about how orks or fairies really exist, and they've seen them in real life. Just the same, after giving it a try I fell in love with all the things it had the potential to become.
Our FLGS still has a couple starters, an integral and tons of "reinforcement boxes" on the shelves, collecting dust. I wish I could say I had purchased some, but the figures weren't worth retail, IMHO. Online stores strike again. The game should have really made up its mind about who it wanted to sell to.
groundedcontrol wrote:None the less, one of the two loudly raving loons that are still regularly posting on their forums has made a pretty slideshow of Ex-illis artwork, in an attempt to raise support for the currently non existent "Bastion Staff".
He also popped up on the Mantic forums to suggest Bastion would be a good investment opportunity for them.
groundedcontrol wrote:None the less, one of the two loudly raving loons that are still regularly posting on their forums has made a pretty slideshow of Ex-illis artwork, in an attempt to raise support for the currently non existent "Bastion Staff".
He also popped up on the Mantic forums to suggest Bastion would be a good investment opportunity for them.
I bet the Mantic lads had a good laugh about that one.
Wait
a fictional murder of a fictional Pope is offensive?
I thought is was a metaphor for the ex Ex-Illis gaming system and a most appropriate an image to use.
Apparently the "fans" feel the need to insult those who offer support with anything like a critical viewpoint.
I know that's the experience that was had around here with the big demon base. I tried to warn them, I really did, that their best bet was to embrace criticism and grow from it, rather than continue repeating the same old platitudes. What do I get for the many hours of unpaid bug testing, and helping newbies out on the forums? Hate. Frankly, I hope the game survives, but let's be honest, Bastion brings nothing to the table for investors. I really do suspect that the guys at Mantic had a good laugh, but even if another miniatures company does buy this product, the first thing they'll do is bury it.
The "fans" say that their story and universe are awesome, but I can't find anything about it which they own. They certainly own the bastardized french misspellings of unit names, but couldn't any game simply replace the missing "L" in viliens, and produce a similar figure without infringing on Ex-illis' IP?
I mean, they've carefully crafted every detail so that it is based on material from the public domain. Why buy what you can have for free? As for buying a customer base. . .
Perhaps we can instead giggle about how one can "get fit" with wargaming. Seriously, the biggest turn off for this game is knowing that I'd meet people like this at conventions. How about 40k players? Do they share this level of crazy?
I thought the fantasy background they had made seemed quite interesting.
And it's a shame now that everything has to be measured on ability to generate pure profit, and that it's not enough for something to make a little money. At the same time no doubt there were some people who enjoyed this game and made the most of it, 'hunk of junk' is a subjective term to use.
BrookM wrote: I bet the Mantic lads had a good laugh about that one.
No doubt. The funny thing is, Mantic could help these people out, if they produced one of the armies that I and others have been suggesting. An Angels and Humans paladin army would at least let them use their Ex-Illis minis in Kings of War.
groundedcontrol wrote:Perhaps we can instead giggle about how one can "get fit" with wargaming. Seriously, the biggest turn off for this game is knowing that I'd meet people like this at conventions. How about 40k players? Do they share this level of crazy?
No, but a lot of them have the same 6-minute daily workout:
groundedcontrol wrote:Perhaps we can instead giggle about how one can "get fit" with wargaming. Seriously, the biggest turn off for this game is knowing that I'd meet people like this at conventions. How about 40k players? Do they share this level of crazy?
No, but a lot of them have the same 6-minute daily workout:
It would've been better (or worse?) if that was an animated gif.
groundedcontrol wrote:Perhaps we can instead giggle about how one can "get fit" with wargaming. Seriously, the biggest turn off for this game is knowing that I'd meet people like this at conventions. How about 40k players? Do they share this level of crazy?
No, but a lot of them have the same 6-minute daily workout:
It would've been better (or worse?) if that was an animated gif.
Not necessary.
From his facial expression, you can see that he just "finished".
That's just horrible. Why does this device exist? Obviously someone has a sense of humor to have invented it.
But seriously though. The crazy level of 40k players... I know a couple, and they seem alright. Nerdy as all hell, but otherwise not abnormal. I mean, they're not trying to tell me that blood angels really exist or anything.
groundedcontrol wrote: I mean, they're not trying to tell me that blood angels really exist or anything.
Of course they dont exist, thats just silly!
But Tyranids do exist and I have proofs of them amoung us
Well, that's the problem I had with Ex-illis theme. Some people claim to have actually seen angels and demons. A problem rarely shared by other games. Worse, one of the guys was trying to sell his magically altered water as a cure for diabetes. *facepalm*
As for ex illis: I suppose we can all know its fate for certain in a few days, but the fact that some of the ex staff are pimping their new (and unrelated) iPhone app on the forums to raise money doesn't bode well.
Other games have other problems, religion, politics, sex, genocide, mindless war etc are always hot themes... THe problem is not the theme per say but the way people look at these fictional worlds... everyone has diferent boundries.
I also have seen angels in my time (samantha fox boobies) and demons ( my youth math teacher)
groundedcontrol wrote:That's just horrible. Why does this device exist? Obviously someone has a sense of humor to have invented it.
The funniest thing is that this thing is huge with guys in the Air Force while on shift(at least Satellite Operators). They'll use this thing in front of a bunch of other guys. They've bought more so that more of them can use it at the same time.
groundedcontrol wrote:That's just horrible. Why does this device exist? Obviously someone has a sense of humor to have invented it.
The funniest thing is that this thing is huge with guys in the Air Force while on shift(at least Satellite Operators). They'll use this thing in front of a bunch of other guys. They've bought more so that more of them can use it at the same time.
You've got to be kidding me! I was maintenance, and I'm pretty sure there was no way that we'd have one of those in our shop for anything other than laughs!
If you going to involve computers then an augmented reality game would make more sense. But even that would not get people to jump to their game system.
The whole idea of everything living on their servers sounds like it was doomed to fail.
And now, one of the previous bastion staff is literally begging for the gamers to put their money where there mouth is. I hope someone does, but I certainly can't.
groundedcontrol wrote:That's just horrible. Why does this device exist? Obviously someone has a sense of humor to have invented it.
The funniest thing is that this thing is huge with guys in the Air Force while on shift(at least Satellite Operators). They'll use this thing in front of a bunch of other guys. They've bought more so that more of them can use it at the same time.
You've got to be kidding me! I was maintenance, and I'm pretty sure there was no way that we'd have one of those in our shop for anything other than laughs!
groundedcontrol wrote:And now, one of the previous bastion staff is literally begging for the gamers to put their money where there mouth is. I hope someone does, but I certainly can't.
Platuan4th wrote:The funniest thing is that this thing is huge with guys in the Air Force while on shift(at least Satellite Operators). They'll use this thing in front of a bunch of other guys. They've bought more so that more of them can use it at the same time.
You've got to be kidding me! I was maintenance, and I'm pretty sure there was no way that we'd have one of those in our shop for anything other than laughs!
They certainly own the bastardized french misspellings of unit names
I’m not so sure. There was no standardised spelling in the middle ages so how can you have a misspelling. Most people couldn’t even read or write.
The whole idea of everything living on their servers sounds like it was doomed to fail.
A guy on one of the photo sharing online services had his entire album -- 4,000 pictures -- deleted recently, through an administrative error. He was more than a little miffed. It doesn’t fill me with confidence about cloud computing.
The models weren’t astonishing by any means. Most of them are standard middle ages historicals you can get anywhere. Even the angels and so on can be approximated from other ranges. Did they come pre-painted?
No. The models were (except for the Ympes) all multi part models, and many of the parts were beyond the capability of a new player to even remove unbroken from the sprue.
They wanted to maintain the hobby aspect of the game. They really succeeded in sending mixed message about who the game's audience was. Is it for hobbyists, or is it for new gamers? Is it for "grown ups" or is it for your seven year old?
They had this all so mixed up. They had a game system that was simple to learn to play, but models which required a lot of effort to get looking good. They had rape, murder and gore throughout their fluff, but insisted that this was a game you could get your kid to play.
The worst thing about this is that some fans are still out telling people on other forums that the current state of things is "the game is going to be playable indefinately" and that they should buy starters from Bastion's online store. The game might be permanently offline as of Friday. The "team" does not even have the rights to work on anything that has to do with the game. The only hope is that someone gives the "team" enough money to buy the rights to the game IP and servers. Basically, they have to try to buy their own company back at auction.
groundedcontrol wrote:They wanted to maintain the hobby aspect of the game. They really succeeded in sending mixed message about who the game's audience was. Is it for hobbyists, or is it for new gamers? Is it for "grown ups" or is it for your seven year old?
Well said. I personally feel that this is the fundamental problem. In addition, gadget geeks do not mix well with hard-core miniature gamers. The game needs a lot of time to brew its own culture.
Still, I hope the "team" manages to get enough money to buy the game back.
While I have no inside line, and very little information about how this industry works, I do find it odd that they would pre-announce that they are announcing the closing of their company the same day Toy Fair starts (Feb 12th).
I personally think they are trying to whip their community into a frenzy to go buy up all the current stock right before they announce that they got bought by a real toy company. From what I have seen of Ex Illis so far, it seems like the kind of crowd manipulation they would do.
I'm probably a bit skeptical these days, but it seems like too much of setup.
Not sure if this is good news or not, but Bastion goes on with a new investor, as William Wallace announced on the Ex Illis Forum:
Good news! The proposition has been accepted and approved by the judge. Bastion 2.0 is born, with a new investor. There will be quite a lot of changes, but it can only be for the good of Ex illis! We will be finalizing our battle plans and we will come back to you on thursday about what will be Bastion 2.0
Just in case... I will buy very small quantities, dont want something to break down if I buy to much.
