Brother Coa wrote:One thing bother me with early days of Humanity. Mankind was once technologically more advanced even from the Tau, and what happened to that technology? I understand some of it has been lost to wars etc. but Earth was the center of it, and it was almost to the level of middle ages when the Emperor started his unification.To me it's impossible to lost technology that was present on more than million worlds in less than 15.000 years. So what happened to it?

Brother Coa wrote:So the technology was lost because of warp storms and because Humanity fear of AI rampage?
OK, I understand that but why they don't continue technological advancement? Like: building more advanced and stronger void shield that can raise it's shields across the entire planet? Or try to break down warp barrier and then they wont need Astronomican or warp realm? Or they research the wabways to unlock technology of massive teleportation around the galaxy?....
Therew are just the examples of what they can research without being tagged as heretics. I mean, Mechanicus on Mars is the most advanced organisation of the Imperium, why they don't research new stuff if they point that there is no threat to Humans?
And finally, if they are scared of AI - why keep the Titans? They are AI connected to the Human pilot, and there is always a possibility for one Titan to go rampage. So why keep them?

Brother Coa wrote:OK, I understand that but why they don't continue technological advancement?

Like: building more advanced and stronger void shield that can raise it's shields across the entire planet?

Or try to break down warp barrier and then they wont need Astronomican or warp realm?

Or they research the wabways to unlock technology of massive teleportation around the galaxy?....

I mean, Mechanicus on Mars is the most advanced organisation of the Imperium, why they don't research new stuff if they point that there is no threat to Humans?

And finally, if they are scared of AI - why keep the Titans? They are AI connected to the Human pilot, and there is always a possibility for one Titan to go rampage. So why keep them?

Tmonster wrote:I must say, the imperium does not have better technology than the entire eldar race.

Gogsnik wrote:'m not sure what you mean here but in terms of pre-Age of Strife Humanity these feats were not possible and during the Age of Strife almost literally impossible.

1hadhq wrote:in their efforts to claim all Tech, nobody outside the Ad Mech is allowed to invent tech or alter it.
You need a lot of influence to ignore the demands of the mechanicum.

Brother Coa wrote:
But one thing still amuse me, you say only the Emperor knows about webways - well he build one. And it's right beneath the golden throne and it's big enough for Titan Warhound to go through it. Why Mechanicus use that technology to build another one? I mean, technology is not heretical, not new, and build by Emperor himself. So why not build another than use it to better secure the Imperium?

Brother Coa wrote:

Gogsnik wrote:'m not sure what you mean here but in terms of pre-Age of Strife Humanity these feats were not possible and during the Age of Strife almost literally impossible.

Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_drive_(Star_Trek)
This is also possible in real world and in theory it is possible. And in theory it's like Necron phasing - you can be anywhere in galaxy in a matter of hours.

Brother Coa wrote:But one thing still amuse me, you say only the Emperor knows about webways - well he build one. And it's right beneath the golden throne and it's big enough for Titan Warhound to go through it. Why Mechanicus use that technology to build another one? I mean, technology is not heretical, not new, and build by Emperor himself. So why not build another than use it to better secure the Imperium?

poontangler wrote:Well shot guns, and slug throwing rifles have the same strength of the las-gun. Meaning the las-gun is about as powerful as a standard issue assault rifle. It is a mass produced soldiers weapon.

Brother Coa wrote:
Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_drive_(Star_Trek)
This is also possible in real world and in theory it is possible. And in theory it's like Necron phasing - you can be anywhere in galaxy in a matter of hours.

But one thing still amuse me, you say only the Emperor knows about webways - well he build one. And it's right beneath the golden throne and it's big enough for Titan Warhound to go through it.

Why Mechanicus use that technology to build another one? I mean, technology is not heretical, not new, and build by Emperor himself. So why not build another than use it to better secure the Imperium?

And Mechanicus heresy of technological advancement is just idiocy. Like some Techpriest can't say: "The Omnissiah thinks that this Tau pulse rifle should not be destroyed before examined to use that power output on Lasguns to give our brave solders fighting chance on the battlefield". Or they can at least put that aside until they find a way to fix the Golden Throne.

Gogsnik wrote:Snippy mcsnip snip

Loved the Forever war series.
Although didn't they basically use a slingshot?
And the Webway (As i understand it) is half way between the warp and real-space and is very hard (Read:Impossible) to get into without a gate built for the purpose.

Reply by: Sir Pseudonymous - click to view full reply 

37036

Technology @ 2011/01/19 00:38:16

Post by: Sir Pseudonymous

I know I've seen references to mechanicus research facilities devoted to inventing new technology, and that any inventions have to be thoroughly vetted before they can even begin to be considered for actual deployment (throw in distribution and production issues with something the scale of the Imperium, and the fact that even if vetted as "non-heretical" most organizations will just stick with what they know, and I can see new technology not really ever getting into distribution on a meaningful scale). Then there's the general portrayal of mechanicus priests as suicidally interested in any technology they can get their hands on, even when it's quite blatantly of xeno origins (particularly necron technology), and facilities dedicated to researching blatantly heretical items (like necron technology)...


Really, even in gameplay terms lasguns aren't pea shooters, there's just a lot of weapons that are even more destructive than they are. As an aside, on thinking about the matter, space marines don't seem much different from the fluff either, it's just that the ones starring in books carry a few hundred metric tons of plot armor around with them, and if they let that slip for even a second they get eviscerated in the blink of an eye, revealing just how fragile they actually are.

Reply by: ChrisWWII - click to view full reply 

27848

Technology @ 2011/01/19 00:59:21

Post by: ChrisWWII

Well, just like EVERY Imperial organization, different chunks of the Mechanicus hold different ideas, and of course, fight each other over said ideas. Some Tech Priests may think any research at all is heresy, while others may think that it is possible to use alien technology to better humanity. It's Warhammer 40k, and the Imperium of Man!! Everyone is arguing with everyone else about what the Emperor truly wants, and they only agree on a few things: 1) Chaos is the enemy, 2) Humans are the best, 3) All hail the EMperor. Beyond that, anything goes, and everyone will decide that everyone else's ideas are heresy.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Technology @ 2011/01/19 01:55:33

Post by: Melissia

poontangler wrote:Well shot guns, and slug throwing rifles have the same strength of the las-gun. Meaning the las-gun is about as powerful as a standard issue assault rifle. It is a mass produced soldiers weapon.

And a veteran, extremely fit and powerful chainsword wielding Sister in power armor has the same strength as an unarmed malnourished conscript who hasn't even received basic training after being yanked off the street. It being S3 means approximately nothing, because the in-game representations are EXTREMELY abstract.

I guarantee you a Sister in power armor could overwhelm any non-augmented human in any test in raw strength and endurance. This is not represented in stats, because the stats are abstract.

Reply by: Sir Pseudonymous - click to view full reply 

37036

Technology @ 2011/01/19 03:42:21

Post by: Sir Pseudonymous

To be fair, most of the strength augmentation in SoB power armor goes to carrying around the massive amounts of gold it takes to get a 3+ armor save, since it wouldn't be Ecclesiarchy Certified if it wasn't made of solid gold.


Stats aren't so much abstract as they are extremely broad categories. S3 is essentially a statistical average of what a normal human or eldar can do with a normal melee weapon, considered roughly comparable to a close range shotgun blast or lasgun shot in terms of damage ability.

Reply by: poontangler - click to view full reply 

37127

Technology @ 2011/01/19 06:22:36

Post by: poontangler

Oh ho but the battle sister has a BS and a WS of four, where as the conscript's respective stats are only twos. This gives you and idea of where the stats stand in game terms. Yes they are abstract, but that conscript is clearly not equal to battle sister and would easily be defeated.

Also the Sisters of Battle are not augmented, they are just very well trained and equipped. Actually in game terms most alien races would fight them much more frequently then the space marines, as the SoB are much more numerious, and actively patrol imperial territory.

Reply by: Brother Coa - click to view full reply 

31733

Technology @ 2011/01/19 08:47:13

Post by: Brother Coa

Does Warp have any effect on the technology? Like instantly shut it down, blowing up some parts or taking control of it. I have a felling that each time technology came in touch with the warp field (warp realm, like warp storm nearby) technology became less effective than usual. The other thing that make me believe in this is the Tau, who is on the other edge of the galaxy, opposing the Eye of Terror on other. And is it possible that because they are so distant from the EoT and warp entities that they have the most advance technology in galaxy?

Reply by: ChrisWWII - click to view full reply 

27848

Technology @ 2011/01/19 10:01:13

Post by: ChrisWWII

Well, no not really. If the Warp shut down technology, the Imperium would be helpless to fight daemons, and psyker powers would be just complete hell to work with.

And note, a warp storm generally isn't a physical thing in physical space. It's a phenomenon in the realm of the Warp that cuts the planet off because all FTL travel and communication goes through the Warp.

Think of it this way, it's the Colonial era, and the ENglish have colonies in America. A warp storm would be like if a freak strom developed in the middl of the Atlantic that destroyed any ship trying to cross it. To the people on both sides, looking out things would be fine, but the colonies would be 'cut off' in the sense that no message or vessel could get through the storm.

Reply by: Gogsnik - click to view full reply 

17927

Technology @ 2011/01/19 17:47:31

Post by: Gogsnik

Melissia wrote:And a veteran, extremely fit and powerful chainsword wielding Sister in power armor has the same strength as an unarmed malnourished conscript who hasn't even received basic training after being yanked off the street. It being S3 means approximately nothing, because the in-game representations are EXTREMELY abstract.

I guarantee you a Sister in power armor could overwhelm any non-augmented human in any test in raw strength and endurance. This is not represented in stats, because the stats are abstract.

If you were to compare the strength characteristics of Sororitas and Scum in Dark Heresy then the Sororitas are significantly less strong. If you were to compare the characteristics given in Inquisitor for a fit human would have a strength of 50 and a Sororitas 55. They are highly trained humans but humans none-the-less and the strength characteristics in any game reflect that. AS far as strength increases from powered armour, it is significant enough for a game like 40K but in those where it is represented than any human wearing powered armour would almost certainly overwhelm a no-augmented human in a test of strength, that's obvious.

poontangler wrote:Actually in game terms most alien races would fight them much more frequently then the space marines, as the SoB are much more numerious, and actively patrol imperial territory.

That is not correct. Each Order has only between three and four thousand members. There are probably fewer than forty thousand Sororitas scattered throughout the Imperium at the current time and even in peak periods no more than one hundred thousand.

Brother Coa wrote:Does Warp have any effect on the technology? Like instantly shut it down, blowing up some parts or taking control of it.

If exposed to the raw stuff of the warp then anything not shielded by a Gellar Field would be instantly destroyed save for the vaguaries of the warp but basically it would be obliterated.

I have a felling that each time technology came in touch with the warp field (warp realm, like warp storm nearby) technology became less effective than usual.

That isn't true, proximity to a warp storm would not instantly effect a weapon or vehicle, if that were the case then the Traitor Legions would have no usable technology at all. In fact the Dark Mechanicus rely on proximity to the warp to create weapons and vehicles that they could not create in the material realm.

The other thing that make me believe in this is the Tau, who is on the other edge of the galaxy, opposing the Eye of Terror on other. And is it possible that because they are so distant from the EoT and warp entities that they have the most advance technology in galaxy?

There are plenty of warp/real space overlaps near Tau space and they don't have naywhere near the most advanced technology in the galaxy. Arguably that would by the Necrons and the Tau come no-where near them in terms of sophistication.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Technology @ 2011/01/19 18:54:54

Post by: Melissia

poontangler wrote:Also the Sisters of Battle are not augmented

Yes they are. Sisters of Battle wear strength-augmenting power armor.

Gogsnik wrote:If you were to compare the strength characteristics of Sororitas and Scum in Dark Heresy then the Sororitas are significantly less strong.

That's because Dark Heresy is a roleplaying game, and all of the classes must be balanced. Sororitas are already held to be more powerful than other classes for various other reasons, giving Sororitas another statistical advantage would not help the issue.

A person who has had a properly nutritious diet, trained in hand to hand combat, and dedicated theirselves to military service with the dedication that comes with only the religiously fanatic-- and done so all their entire lives, practically from birth (if not literally so)... is going to be far more physically fit and probably stronger than the average random dude off the street.

That is not correct. Each Order has only between three and four thousand members. There are probably fewer than forty thousand Sororitas scattered throughout the Imperium at the current time and even in peak periods no more than one hundred thousand.

That is the bare minimum estimate, yes, but not hte only estimate possible. I would estimate there are millions of Sisters at the very least, with numbers varying with the ebb and flow of the Ecclesiarchy's power. The numbers in the codices are incredibly vague (intentionally so I imagine), and the numbers in the rulebook are contradicted by every single other source out there.

Reply by: Gogsnik - click to view full reply 

17927

Technology @ 2011/01/19 19:53:31

Post by: Gogsnik

Melissia wrote:That's because Dark Heresy is a roleplaying game, and all of the classes must be balanced. Sororitas are already held to be more powerful than other classes for various other reasons, giving Sororitas another statistical advantage would not help the issue.

Perhaps Dark Heresy is but Inquisitor isn't and what we see across three games is a similar presentation of the Sororitas. These are not enhanced humans, they are ordinary humans and your average Sororitas is no stronger than any other physically fit human and even the strongest Sororitas can be no stronger than a human can be. When they don their powered armour then of course they benefit from the strength enhancement of that armour but so would any human.

A person who has had a properly nutritious diet, trained in hand to hand combat, and dedicated theirselves to military service with the dedication that comes with only the religiously fanatic-- and done so all their entire lives, practically from birth (if not literally so)... is going to be far more physically fit and probably stronger than the average random dude off the street.

Again, if you were to look at Inquisitor then you might reasonably say that an ordinary human taken from random off the street, one who has never trained in their lives would have a strength characteristic between twenty and fourty, significantly less than a trained Sororitas but even after the most basic training that person will increase their strength and stamina, a person can only do so much abd the Sororitas are no different. Their true strength comes from their faith, not their muscles.

That is the bare minimum estimate, yes, but not hte only estimate possible. I would estimate there are millions of Sisters at the very least, with numbers varying with the ebb and flow of the Ecclesiarchy's power.

You may well prefer the idea of millions of Sisters but the background disagrees with you so unless you can provide a source to substantiate that preference it is meaningless.

The numbers in the codices are incredibly vague (intentionally so I imagine), and the numbers in the rulebook are contradicted by every single other source out there.

Hardly, quite the contrary in fact, the numbers are quite specific. At the current time (in-universe) there are between three and four thousand Battle Sisters per Order and on occasion they can be as few as several hundred and as many as six or seven thousand. Across the various publications and various editions there have only ever been several tens of thousands of Battle Sisters with the emphasis on less rather than more.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Technology @ 2011/01/19 20:19:12

Post by: Melissia

Gogsnik wrote:Perhaps Dark Heresy is but Inquisitor isn't

... yes it is.

Gogsnik wrote:These are not enhanced humans

I never said they were.

Again, if you were to look at Inquisitor then you might reasonably say that an ordinary human taken from random off the street, one who has never trained in their lives would have a strength characteristic between twenty and fourty, significantly less than a trained Sororitas but even after the most basic training that person will increase their strength and stamina, a person can only do so much abd the Sororitas are no different. Their true strength comes from their faith, not their muscles.

The last statement is true, but the rest of it not so much so. Again, the reason that I said Sisters are going to be stronger and more physically fit is that they have been properly fed with the best, most nutritious (not saying the most tasty) food in the Imperium from near-birth (via the Schola Progenium), and trained by the same institutions as well as their own.

It's basic nutrition. A person who has a proper, perfectly balanced and perfectly designed diet and exercise regimen for a soldier, all other things equal, is going to come out physically superior to one that when they aren't going hungry due to food shortages, crime, warfare, or simply being part of the lowest rungs of society, is eating soylens viridians, a tasteless (or bad tasting) food designed to give humans the bare minimum of what they need to survive (and be easily mass produced). As I said before, the average conscript ripped off the street, given a lasgun and pointed at the enemy is NOT going to be as physically fit or strong as a Sister of Battle. There's really no way to argue they would be.

It has nothing to do with Sisters being augmented, no, that was merely referring to power armor.

You may well prefer the idea of millions of Sisters but the background disagrees with you so unless you can provide a source to substantiate that preference it is meaningless.

Please, you're the one pulling numbers out of your pants, and you're asking ME to back my statements up?

C:WH is enough of a source. To give a direct quote, the numbers of Sororitas have waxed and waned from "a couple thousand to many thousands". This is an incredibly vague statement, because "many thousands" is anywhere from 3 to 999 thousand. It certainly does not mean specifically three or four-- "many" is a large and indefinite number.

Reply by: poontangler - click to view full reply 

37127

Technology @ 2011/01/19 20:51:29

Post by: poontangler

I am sure the armor augments the sister's strength to be superior to that of an imperial guardsmen. But in game times it is not enough to give them a defined edge. This boast to strength is factored in to the weapon skill(Much like the speed of the Eldar, and their long lives) But they are clearly not as physically powerful as a Space Marine.

As far as how many, the numbers are indeed vague. But according to the codex they patrol pilgrim routes, and actively aid the imperial guard in defending the Imperium. It is apparent they they greatly out number the space marines, as it is much easier to produce one. They are obviously a much smaller force then the innumerable imperial guard. At the very least they would number in the millions; if a battle erupted your xenos would more likely end up squaring off against the battle sisters, then the space marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I am reading the organisation of the sisters.

Order: Led by the primary Canoness, called the Canoness Superior, who runs the entire Order. Each Canoness Superior is subservient only to the will of the Abbess Sanctorum.
Preceptory: An organization of a single convent with up to 1,000 Sisters, an Adepta Sororitas Preceptory is equivalent in size to a Space Marines Chapter and is lead by a Canoness Preceptor.
Commandery: A Commandery normally comprises smaller convents or detachments of militant Sisters from a single convent with up to 200 Sisters of Battle, led by a Canoness Commander.
Mission: The smallest organization of Sisters, a Mission consists of a few units and can be lead by a Canoness or the lesser rank of Palatine.

This alone hints that they are in fact more numerous then the space marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Codex also clearly states that not all of the sisters are combat oriented.

Orders Hospitaller: The Sisters of the Orders Hospitaller aid the poor and heal the sick and the wounded in the many hospitals and clinics across the Imperium operated as charities by the Sisterhood. Some of their hospitals are part of Imperial Crusades and the Sisters serve as medics for the Imperial Guard Regiments serving in those conflicts.
Orders Dialogous: The Sisters of the Order Dialogous help to translate the innumerable dialects and slangs of Low Gothic used throughout the Imperium. At the behest of the Inquisition and certain other parties in the Imperial hierarchy they also study Xenos languages1, and translate texts obtained from Xeno artifacts. Sisters Dialogous are often employed as Sages in Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors' retinues.
Orders Famulous: The Sisters of the Orders Famulous organize and maintain the households of certain Imperial governors and Imperial nobles, serving as advisers and by their very presence reminding them of their higher loyalties to the Emperor. They oppose any disloyalty with the support of faithful followers from the inside of the noble household itself4.The Orders Famulous also maintain and update extenseive genetic and genealogical records for all the important noble families of the Imperium and can conduct genetic testing at the request of the Inquisition when rampant mutation or heresy on the part of Imperial nobles is suspected.

Reply by: Gogsnik - click to view full reply 

17927

Technology @ 2011/01/19 21:04:01

Post by: Gogsnik

Melissia wrote:... yes it is.

No, it really isn't. As Gav Thorpe said, 'For years, successive designers and developers have honed each edition of Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 to a razor edge, striving towards that Holy Grail of games design - game balance. With Inquisitor we decided not to bother with any of that at all...'

I never said they were.

I never said that you did.

Again, if you were to look at Inquisitor then you might reasonably say that an ordinary human taken from random off the street, one who has never trained in their lives would have a strength characteristic between twenty and fourty, significantly less than a trained Sororitas but even after the most basic training that person will increase their strength and stamina, a person can only do so much abd the Sororitas are no different. Their true strength comes from their faith, not their muscles.

The last statement is true, but the rest of it not so much so. Again, the reason that I said Sisters are going to be stronger and more physically fit is that they have been properly fed with the best, most nutritious (not saying the most tasty) food in the Imperium from near-birth (via the Schola Progenium), and trained by the same institutions as well as their own.

It's basic nutrition.

I'm not interested in whether or not a Sororitas, or any person trained rigoursly from a young age is more or less strong than someone who doesn't start to train until well into their adulthood but only that the Sororitas are normal humans with the same potential as any normal human and their physical strength as portrayed in which ever game system you care to mention reflects that fact.

Please, you're the one pulling numbers out of your pants, and you're asking ME to back my statements up?

I don't know why you say that because the numbers are taken directly from the background; Codex: Sisters of Battle to be precise but the 5th Edition Rulebook summises those sme figures.

And yes, I am asking you to provide a source. Provide a source which agrees with your preference, that backs up your statements. It'd be nice, you know, just this one time if you actually did provide a source instead of ignoring the background and then asking other people for their sources instead. Hah, who am I kidding?

C:WH is enough of a source. To give a direct quote, the numbers of Sororitas have waxed and waned from "a couple thousand to many thousands". This is an incredibly vague statement, because "many thousands" is anywhere from 3 to 999 thousand. It certainly does not mean specifically three or four-- "many" is a large and indefinite number.

You know we've had this same identical conversation before. I presented the numbers given for the Orders in the background source material then as now but then, as now, you ignored it in favour of your own preferences.

To cut the discussion off at this point as it has nothing to with Technology I'll type up your argument for you

You'll say: There is no actual limit, however, on the number of minor Orders that are in the galaxy, therefore there is technically no upper limit to the number of Sisters in the galaxy.

I'll say: the Major Orders only ever manage to raise several thousand warriors, specific figures presented to you, but the Minor Orders are limitless? Bah! And to quote Codex Witch Hunters, 'The original six orders are by far the most numerous.'

Your argument on what constitutes 'many' is incredibly tenuous but I don't expect you to diverge from your preference regardless of any of the background presented to you so there is very little point in saying more than that. The background gives us specific numbers and those numbers paint a picture of fewer rather than greater numbers of Battle Sisters and even if you were correct, that there are indeed hundreds of thousands, even millions of Battle Sisters there is no reason for the background not to say just that. But it doesn't, it says the opposite.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Technology @ 2011/01/19 21:21:23

Post by: Melissia

Gogsnik wrote:You know we've had this same identical conversation before.

That's because you arbitrarily and illogically limit "many" to a definition which pleases you, while I have no such limits. At some points-- when the power of the Ecclesiarchy wanes-- yes, they are quite low, a couple thousand, three or four thousand. But when the power of the Ecclesiarchy waxes, it grows to many, many thousands. No matter how many times you say otherwise, many thousands does not always mean merely three or four.

Reply by: Ribon Fox - click to view full reply 

26523

Technology @ 2011/01/19 21:35:57

Post by: Ribon Fox

Ah the Melissia posts, how we've missed them

OT
The IOM still has some pretty advance tech, its just most of the time one no knows how it works. They can reporduce it, make lesser copys of it, they know it works just not how it works.

If memory serves me right there are some Ad Mech that do reverse engeener tech they find. Its rare but they do it, what comes to mind is a bit in the back of the 3rd edition rule book about an "open core neo-plasma reactor" that they got their hands (or servos) on.

How many of us on here can build a car from scratch, or a toaster for that matter?

Reply by: Gogsnik - click to view full reply 

17927

Technology @ 2011/01/19 21:36:22

Post by: Gogsnik

Melissia wrote:That's because you arbitrarily and illogically limit "many" to a definition which pleases you, while I have no such limits. At some points-- when the power of the Ecclesiarchy wanes-- yes, they are quite low, a couple thousand, three or four thousand. But when the power of the Ecclesiarchy waxes, it grows to many, many thousands. No matter how many times you say otherwise, many thousands does not always mean merely three or four.

lol. lol lol lol.

I do not limit anything, I have no preference or desire to 'limit' the potential amount of Battle Sisters.

Once again, the background, states the numbers. It states numbers as low as several hundred and as high as seven (which constitutes 'many' thousands quite nicely). However, the current number, is between three and four thousand per Order. So, irregardless of what the number of Battle Sisters can be, at the time of the 41st Millennium the figures are quite clearly set at several tens of thousands, around and probably less than forty thousand Battle Sisters.

And no matter how many times you say 'many' means hundreds of thousand it will never mean that. The numbers are printed in a background source book, I have used them, I have presented them. You have none to support your preference.


EDIT: spelling

Reply by: poontangler - click to view full reply 

37127

Technology @ 2011/01/19 22:51:37

Post by: poontangler

Gogsnik wrote:

Melissia wrote:That's because you arbitrarily and illogically limit "many" to a definition which pleases you, while I have no such limits. At some points-- when the power of the Ecclesiarchy wanes-- yes, they are quite low, a couple thousand, three or four thousand. But when the power of the Ecclesiarchy waxes, it grows to many, many thousands. No matter how many times you say otherwise, many thousands does not always mean merely three or four.

lol. lol lol lol.

I do not limit anything, I have no preference or desire to 'limit' the potential amount of Battle Sisters.

Once again, the background, states the numbers. It states numbers as low as several hundred and as high as seven (which constitutes 'many' thousands quite nicely). However, the current number, is between three and four thousand per Order. So, irregardless of what the number of Battle Sisters can be, at the time of the 41st Millennium the figures are quite clearly set at several tens of thousands, around and probably less than forty thousand Battle Sisters.

And no matter how many times you say 'many' means hundreds of thousand it will never mean that. The numbers are printed in a background source book, I have used them, I have presented them. You have none to support your preference.


EDIT: spelling

Good Sir, me and Melissa have both posted the back ground you speak of. It is pretty much stated in their over all role that they have large numbers.

Reply by: Gogsnik - click to view full reply 

17927

Technology @ 2011/01/19 23:26:55

Post by: Gogsnik

poontangler wrote:Good Sir, me and Melissa have both posted the back ground you speak of. It is pretty much stated in their over all role that they have large numbers.

No you haven't and no it is not.

There are six Major Orders, descibed in older and current background (Codex: Sisters of Battle and Codex: Witch Hunters repsectively) as being 'by far the most numerous' Orders in relation to the Lesser Orders.

Codex: Sisters of Battle provides the following information:

In recent years, the number of the Militant Orders' members has declined slightly and each Order numbers between 3,000 and 4,000 Battle Sisters, of which perhaps 500-750 will be trained as Seraphim. These warriors are spread througout the galaxy in various battle zones and on extended tours of duty. The size of an Order waxes and wanes irregularly, depending on the quality of recruits available and battle losses. On occasion an Order may number no more than a few hundred warriors, all fighting the enemies of the Emperor while at other times it may reach a peak of six or seven thousand warriors, with much of the Order fighting in distant wars but still leaving a reserve of several thousand Battle Sisters and Seraphim that can be despatched as needed.

Six Major Orders with a peak membership of six to seven thousand. Let us say, for sake of argument, seven thousand, that gives a grand total of forty-two thousand Battle Sisters. The Major Orders are 'by far more numerous' than the Lesser Orders, but let us say they consititute half the maximum peak number of members of the Major Orders. The new total would then by sixty-three thousand Battle Sisters.


It is not stated anywhere that they have 'large numbers'. It is categorically stated that they do not have 'large numbers'. There are several tens of thousands of Battle Sisters, a force far, far less numerous than the Astartes.


If you can provide a source, any source, which has numbers, actual specific numbers, stating that there are millions of Battle Sisters then I will quite happily accept that, it would please me greatly to update my knowledge on this issue, especially of you or someone else wants to find the source and page reference and tpye out the quote for me.

If however it is merely your preference for there to be X amount of Battle Sisters because you believe that's how many there should be, well, that might suit you, but it isn't what the background tells us. How you choose to reconcile that is up to you but until someone can say go to page ... of such and such publication and you will see it clearly says there are millions of Battle Sisters then the only numbers there are say that they are few in number, much like the Astartes (although no-where near as numerous) and yet still sufficient to the tasks at hand.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Technology @ 2011/01/20 01:05:43

Post by: Melissia

Because the sisters protect all of the uncountable shrines, pilgrim routes, ecclesiarchal VIPs, fight wars of faith all across hte galaxy while having fully half of their forces stationed on Ophelia and Terra at all times... with fewer than one Sister per every fifty worlds.

Codex Sisters of Battle is superceded by Codex: Witch Hunters as the latter is more recent. GW intentionally made the number of Sisters more vague because the older numbers were stupid and they knew it. The new numbers for the amount of Sisters is "as few as a couple thousand per order at any given time, and many thousand per order at any given time.

If you don't like the fact that GW reconned it into not being actual numbers and are instead vague, tough, deal with it, that's how GW works. If I started pulling out Rogue Trader information about Sisters and claimed the Space Marines obey Sisters because the Sisters police them, most Marine players would laugh at me and tell me, rightly so, that this is old, out of date fluff which doesn't hold true anymore.

Reply by: Gogsnik - click to view full reply 

17927

Technology @ 2011/01/20 01:47:09

Post by: Gogsnik

Melissia wrote:Because the sisters protect all of the uncountable shrines, pilgrim routes, ecclesiarchal VIPs, fight wars of faith all across hte galaxy while having fully half of their forces stationed on Ophelia and Terra at all times... with fewer than one Sister per every fifty worlds.

They don't always have half their number held in reserve, they do that when they have the personnel to spare.

Codex Sisters of Battle is superceded by Codex: Witch Hunters as the latter is more recent. GW intentionally made the number of Sisters more vague because the older numbers were stupid and they knew it. The new numbers for the amount of Sisters is "as few as a couple thousand per order at any given time, and many thousand per order at any given time.

If you don't like the fact that GW reconned it into not being actual numbers and are instead vague, tough, deal with it, that's how GW works.

Yawn, and if you don't like that no source says there are millions of Battle Sisters you deal with it.

Besides you don't have a clue why Games Workshop reworded the background in Codex: Witch Hunters beyond making sure it wasn't a complete copy and past job from Codex: Sisters of Battle.

The older numbers are not stupid, the Battle Sisters are a powerful and tenacious warrior elite who are more than capable of holding their own against many times their number due to their undying faith in the righteous power of the Emperor. Which doesn't even begin to cover the Frateris Militia, other Imperial cults the truly massive amount of Ecclesiarchy staff who maintain shrines et cetera and who join the Battle Sisters on Wars of Faith alongside the Imperial Guard, it isn't like the Battle Sisters do all these things in isolation by themselves.

Although, if we look at Codex: Witch Hunters we see that the largest organisational unit an Order is ever likely to field consists of only one thousand Battle Sisters entirely congruant with the numbers established in Codex: Sisters of Battle.

And anyway, if all you're going to do is go with the most recent source to provide the numbers then that will be the 5th Edition rulebook which says quite plainly several thousand Battle Sisters for a Major Order and several hundred for a Lesser Order. Not millions...

If I started pulling out Rogue Trader information about Sisters and claimed the Space Marines obey Sisters because the Sisters police them, most Marine players would laugh at me and tell me, rightly so, that this is old, out of date fluff which doesn't hold true anymore.

They'd probably laugh but only because you'd be wrong to say that Rogue Trader says the Sororitas policed the Astartes because it doesn't.

Reply by: poontangler - click to view full reply 

37127

Technology @ 2011/01/20 02:43:24

Post by: poontangler

Gogsnik wrote:Although, if we look at Codex: Witch Hunters we see that the largest organisational unit an Order is ever likely to field consists of only one thousand Battle Sisters entirely congruant with the numbers established in Codex: Sisters of Battle.

See this is a perfect example of somebody simply ignoring all facts and replacing pseudo facts to support his own opinions. I already posted the organisation chart of the sisters of battle.

The largest being an Order; which is quite a bit larger then 1,000 sisters.

I find it rather ironic that you are accusing Melissa of "making things the way she wants them to be" when in actuality you are doing the same thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Order: Led by the primary Canoness, called the Canoness Superior, who runs the entire Order. Each Canoness Superior is subservient only to the will of the Abbess Sanctorum.

Preceptory: An organization of a single convent with up to 1,000 Sisters, an Adepta Sororitas Preceptory is equivalent in size to a Space Marines Chapter and is lead by a Canoness Preceptor.

Commandery: A Commandery normally comprises smaller convents or detachments of militant Sisters from a single convent with up to 200 Sisters of Battle, led by a Canoness Commander.

Mission: The smallest organization of Sisters, a Mission consists of a few units and can be lead by a Canoness or the lesser rank of Palatine.

ah, here it is.

Yes. This is in the codex sir.

Melissa's reference to the Sister guarding Terra, Pilgrim routes, and Imperial worlds is also in the codex.

Reply by: AgeOfEgos - click to view full reply 

2764

Technology @ 2011/01/20 03:10:04

Post by: AgeOfEgos

Brother Coa wrote:One thing bother me with early days of Humanity. Mankind was once technologically more advanced even from the Tau, and what happened to that technology? I understand some of it has been lost to wars etc. but Earth was the center of it, and it was almost to the level of middle ages when the Emperor started his unification.To me it's impossible to lost technology that was present on more than million worlds in less than 15.000 years. So what happened to it?

You probably hit on it more than you know. I think GW writers love their history and the Age Of Strife is symbolic of the historic dark ages. Ironically (I think this lends proof to my assertion), the Age of Strife followed the Dark Age Of Technology, which was a time of great scientific advancement....however it's viewed as 'Dark' because mankind worshiped science as God.

The Big E (and others such as the Lady of the Magma City) represent the leaders of the enlightenment age attempting to use reason/science to advance human civilization. However, they lost (Mostly due to Chaos)...so now people pray to their flashlights before they turn them on. The Ad Mech guards most tech (Such as the Stormraven as hinted in the BA Codex)...so there could be a wealth of information/technology available....yet not released. They're a superstitious and power hungry group...so who knows.

Reply by: Sir Pseudonymous - click to view full reply 

37036

Technology @ 2011/01/20 03:11:06

Post by: Sir Pseudonymous

Aren't SoB produced exclusively through the Schola Progenium? Meaning their potential recruits are also diverted off to other forces, like the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers and Commissariat, apparently in roughly equal numbers (how exactly do they decide who goes where, by the way? I can't recall running across that anywhere). Meaning their numbers are unlikely to be much higher than the number of Commissars, who themselves don't have numbers much higher than the total number of guard regiments.

Of course, that gives you a number around one sister for every couple thousand guardsmen, which would have them outnumbering space marines (who have a hard limit of one million in all, if I remember correctly; a maximum of one thousand chapters of a maximum of one thousand marines each) by anywhere from thousands to one to millions to one, which is still much higher than what is apparently attested to in the background (of course, the "major orders" might form only the smallest percent of the overall Adeptus Sororitas, despite being individually larger than the minor orders (which does make more sense, seeing them as a loose collection of small convents scattered around the galaxy rather than a handful of monolithic institutions; even the space marines have a thousand chapters, while the guard should have millions of regiments))...

Reply by: poontangler - click to view full reply 

37127

Technology @ 2011/01/20 04:01:19

Post by: poontangler

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Aren't SoB produced exclusively through the Schola Progenium? Meaning their potential recruits are also diverted off to other forces, like the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers and Commissariat, apparently in roughly equal numbers (how exactly do they decide who goes where, by the way? I can't recall running across that anywhere). Meaning their numbers are unlikely to be much higher than the number of Commissars, who themselves don't have numbers much higher than the total number of guard regiments.

Of course, that gives you a number around one sister for every couple thousand guardsmen, which would have them outnumbering space marines (who have a hard limit of one million in all, if I remember correctly; a maximum of one thousand chapters of a maximum of one thousand marines each) by anywhere from thousands to one to millions to one, which is still much higher than what is apparently attested to in the background (of course, the "major orders" might form only the smallest percent of the overall Adeptus Sororitas, despite being individually larger than the minor orders (which does make more sense, seeing them as a loose collection of small convents scattered around the galaxy rather than a handful of monolithic institutions; even the space marines have a thousand chapters, while the guard should have millions of regiments))...

According to what I am reading about them, they get recruits typically from war orphans, adoptions, and other various means. A good deal of the Sister's man power is dedicated towards things not involving war, or perhaps supporting the battle sisters. Apparently The Adepta Sororitas and the Sisters of Battle are commonly regarded as the same thing, but the Sisters of battle fall under the Ordos Militant, and thus are the best known part.

The Sisterhood serves as Ministorum's official military force because a decree was made that the Ecclesiarchy cannot maintain any men under arms. This was made to limit the power of the Ministorum. But the Ministorum were able to circumvent this decree by using the all-female force of the Sisterhood.

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

11268

Technology @ 2011/01/20 09:01:27

Post by: nosferatu1001

Grogsnik - you made a couplel of errors wrt FTL

FIrstly, Einstein did not say you cannot travel faster than light, just that it is normally impossible for a particle that exists <c to =c or exceed c, as your mass increases to infinitiy as you approach lightspeed. However this does not disallow you from travelling greater than or equal to c - just you can t do it by starting lower than c. Hence photons (by definition c), photinos others. Tachyons either travel faster than c OR travel backwards through time, as either is consistent with our physics model.

Secondly: warp ddrives dont actually make you travel faster than light, as you dont move - you compress and warp the fabric of space time around you, bringing objects closer to you. So you dont ever break general relativity - your mass does not increase, you dont experience time dilation, etc. MUCH cleverer people than you or I have shown that, according to the physics models we have, this IS possible - just highly impractical. Something on the order of 1billion galaxy energy input requirement.

Thidly: time dilation is simply a function of special relativity, which is that your elapsed time rate decreases as you approach c. So to an observer in the craft, outside the universe appears to speed up. So you dont "get" time dilation from FTL, as this already requires you to step outside of special relativity. Hence the forever wars (good series) elapsed time rates - you experience 1 year of travel but you have travelled, as far as the universe is concerned, for 100 years or so.

Back on topic: the more you rely on technology, the worse it gets when you have something that destroys that technology. The "bootstrap" problem gets worse - you forget, as a society, how to build the tools that build the forges that build the better tools that build the machines to build the mining equipment to get the fuel sources to help make the better tools that make the generators that power the machines to help you make.... and so on. The further up that chain you get, the more of the chain of knowledge is lost, until you get to the point where you dont understand the basis of your technology - which is the apparent case of the IoM. They simply dont understand the fundamentals of their technology, and if you cannot do that then even without the dogmatic technology = religion tight grip, akin to the religious restrictions in our own dark ages, doing anything more than maintaining and operating is vastly more difficult.>

Reply by: 1hadhq - click to view full reply 

6838

Technology @ 2011/01/20 17:47:32

Post by: 1hadhq

poontangler wrote:

See this is a perfect example of somebody simply ignoring all facts and replacing pseudo facts to support his own opinions. .:

Could we stop pulling non-existant proof of non-existant millions and return to the threads topic?

poontangler wrote:
Order: Led by the primary Canoness, called the Canoness Superior, who runs the entire Order. Each Canoness Superior is subservient only to the will of the Abbess Sanctorum.

Preceptory: An organization of a single convent with up to 1,000 Sisters, an Adepta Sororitas Preceptory is equivalent in size to a Space Marines Chapter and is lead by a Canoness Preceptor.

Commandery: A Commandery normally comprises smaller convents or detachments of militant Sisters from a single convent with up to 200 Sisters of Battle, led by a Canoness Commander.

Mission: The smallest organization of Sisters, a Mission consists of a few units and can be lead by a Canoness or the lesser rank of Palatine.

Too bad you didn't quote the codex. Since ts pretty clear the common maximum of sisters in one place at the same time is rather a Preceptory than a Order.
And GW campaigns use such small numbers too.

Would it be possible to end this quest to be right about Sisters?

At least your posts should contain something about the tech of the ecclesiarchy and the effects of their teachings at the tech level of the IoM in general.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Technology @ 2011/01/20 18:29:39

Post by: Melissia

The tech of the ecclesiarchy mostly focuses on chymistry or some other misspelling of chemistry. The creation of salves, ointments, incenses, and so on is their schtick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

1hadhq wrote:Too bad you didn't quote the codex. Since ts pretty clear the common maximum of sisters in one place at the same time is rather a Preceptory than a Order.

I don't think you can use GW campaigns as a real example, given that these campaigns often pretty much ignore the Sisters' presence and instead focuses on [Redacted] and glorifying the Marines.

Reply by: 1hadhq - click to view full reply 

6838

Technology @ 2011/01/20 19:36:48

Post by: 1hadhq

A printed codex supporting a Campaign is pretty solid ground IMHO.
Since it has to contain 2 opposing forces, equally in glorification

The Ecclesiarchy themselves may choose the alchemists path, but how about the influence they have in educating imperial citiyens
Would they support a techfriendly stance or show tech as something to be wary?

Parts of the Sisterhood also rely on tech in a civil life: medicine, data storage/translation, etc.
Are these applications of Tech reported to have a) advancing level over time b) to be old to be better?

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Technology @ 2011/01/20 19:41:27

Post by: Melissia

1hadhq wrote: A printed codex supporting a Campaign is pretty solid ground IMHO.
Since it has to contain 2 opposing forces, equally in glorification

The Ecclesiarchy themselves may choose the alchemists path, but how about the influence they have in educating imperial citiyens

The Ecclesiarchy has pretty much sole influence in educating most citizens... but the Mechanicus tends to educate about machines. Forgeworlds are deprived of most Ecclesiarchal presence, if not all, and the denizens there are educated by the Mechanicus. The Schola Progenium which trains commissars, high lords, sisters, stormtroopers, and so on and so forth (pretty much the greatest of the greats come from a Schola) is run by the Ecclesiarchy as well.

Sisters are constantly advancing their technique, but dunno about tech. Hospitaliers are seen as the best doctors and medics in the galaxy for example, but dunno if their actual tech is advancing because of this... as a side note, you don't attack a Hospitallier run hospital... they are just as capable of defending a hospital as normal Sisters, and their robes are actually considered as good protection as light carapace. Heh, there was a story in the Ecclesiarchy supplement for Dark Heresy about that, a complete route for the attacking army when they tried to invade the hospital on Tranch.

Reply by: poontangler - click to view full reply 

37127

Technology @ 2011/01/20 22:59:52

Post by: poontangler

I think it can be agreed that the Imperium is technologically stagnant.

Reply by: Silverthorne - click to view full reply 

642

Technology @ 2011/01/20 23:03:05

Post by: Silverthorne

Wow, Mary Sue much?

What are the techpriests called who specialize in recovering lost technology? Explorators? They are the same or different than the techpriests that go with the IG? And if the research techpriests are shunned, are the exploring ones shunned, or feted? Seems like a cool army opportunity. Or at least a unit entry in Imperial Codexes, -- Explorator Priest. Could be like a buffed techpriest caster type.

Reply by: Perkustin - click to view full reply 

35046

Technology @ 2011/01/20 23:08:45

Post by: Perkustin

BORING SISTERS OF BATTLE STUFF ALERT.

Reply by: ChrisWWII - click to view full reply 

27848

Technology @ 2011/01/20 23:48:11

Post by: ChrisWWII

Well, Explorators would be a farily common profession, searching for lost technology, and any explorator who FOUND osmething that was lost would get a lot of prestige. As far as most of the Mechanicus is concerned finding old stuff = researching your own =

Reply by: purplefood - click to view full reply 

27391

Technology @ 2011/01/20 23:52:12

Post by: purplefood

Explorators explore. Not just for old tech (Though some do) they explore for everything, new planets... other space thingies...

Reply by: Gogsnik - click to view full reply 

17927

Technology @ 2011/01/21 00:02:05

Post by: Gogsnik

poontangler wrote:See this is a perfect example of somebody simply ignoring all facts and replacing pseudo facts to support his own opinions. I already posted the organisation chart of the sisters of battle.

This would be the perfect example of somebody not reading somone's post properly I didn't say an Order was 1,000 Battle Sisters strong, I said, as the Codex says, that the largest organisational unit an Order is ever likely to field consists of 1,000 Battle Sisters.

when in actuality you are doing the same thing.

I'm doing the same thing as Melissia? So you concede she is making things up then? *joke*

I'm quoting the numbers from the background, I'm not making up anything. If the background actually said 'millions of Battle Sisters are active across the Imperium' then naturally I would say that there are millions of Battle Sisters but it doesn't say that.

Yes. This is in the codex sir.

Then you should quote it correctly instead of re-wording it to suit your own agenda. It says that a Preceptory is 'the largest organisational unit an Order is ever likely to field, numbering up to 1,000 Battle Sisters, cloistered at one location.' In other words an Order would never have more than 1,000 Battle Sisters stationed anywhere in the galaxy ever, even then in areas of the most intense combat which indicates fewer rather than greater numbers. If there were millions of Battle Sisters, hundreds of thousands per Greater Order why limit themselves to only fielding 1,000 in one location? Imagine the impact of a million, powered armoured, bolter wielding fanatics at Cadia, the Chaos forces wouldn't stand a chance or imagine them invading the Tau Empire even, such a force would be unstoppable.

Melissa's reference to the Sister guarding Terra, Pilgrim routes, and Imperial worlds is also in the codex.

And is completely irrelevent in terms of establishing the number of Battle Sisters in the Imperium. The power of even a single squad of Battle Sisters is an immense military force, having one or two here and there to defend the most precious relics and shrines seems perfectly in order as, afterall, there will be a plethora of members of the Ecclesiarchy attending such places and perfectly ready to lay down their lives in defence of such artefacts, pilgrims or whatever.

Besides, let us use Melissia's tack; Codex: Witch Hunters is superceded by the 5th Edition Rulebook as the latter is more recent and the Rulebook says several thousand Battle Sisters for a Major Order and several hundred for a Lesser Order. Not millions.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Grogsnik - you made a couplel of errors wrt FTL

I stand corrected then.

Still, I would say it only highlights the difficulty in creating an FTL drive explaining why pre-Age of Strife Humanity never achieved it assuming they ever bothered since the Warp and later the Navigator gene made such technology unnecessary.

Reply by: Sir Pseudonymous - click to view full reply 

37036

Technology @ 2011/01/21 00:24:53

Post by: Sir Pseudonymous

You have to remember, Sci-Fi Writers Have No Sense of Scale. Your argument is mostly coming from the perspective of "individual orders are extremely small," when there's no indication that there are only a few of these small orders. Scatter minor orders bringing the total number well into the millions matches what can be extrapolated from the fact that Commissars are also drawn from the same pool of recruits in the Schola Progenium, meaning the Sororitas would have equal or greater numbers than the Commissariat, which has at least one Commissar for every Guard regiment, and considering the sheer scale of the Imperium (which means many billions, or even trillions, of guardsmen, organized into regiments several thousand strong, meaning many millions of regiments), that means there would have to be millions of SoB.

Space Marines are the intolerable Mary Sues of 40K, and even they get a thousand chapters a thousand strong. SoB are normal humans with some token training, powered armor that's more gold plating than armor, and a psychotically unshakable faith in the righteousness of the Ecclesiarchy (home to the absolute worst excesses and incompetence of the Imperial Command structure). Why on Earth would their numbers be less than the Space Mary-Sues?

Reply by: purplefood - click to view full reply 

27391

Technology @ 2011/01/21 00:26:16

Post by: purplefood

I was wondering that...

Reply by: Gogsnik - click to view full reply 

17927

Technology @ 2011/01/21 02:11:05

Post by: Gogsnik

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Your argument is mostly coming from the perspective of "individual orders are extremely small," when there's no indication that there are only a few of these small orders.

Not entirely sure what you're trying to say here but we know there are six Major Orders and, as far as the background tells us, the Major Orders are 'far more numerous' than the Lesser Orders. That seems pretty straight forward to me but make of it what you will.

Scatter minor orders bringing the total number well into the millions

See above, we know the numbers for Major Orders and they are more numerous than the Lesser Orders, it doesn't follow that the Lesser Orders number in the millions at all.

matches what can be extrapolated from the fact that Commissars are also drawn from the same pool of recruits in the Schola Progenium, meaning the Sororitas would have equal or greater numbers than the Commissariat, which has at least one Commissar for every Guard regiment, and considering the sheer scale of the Imperium (which means many billions, or even trillions, of guardsmen, organized into regiments several thousand strong, meaning many millions of regiments), that means there would have to be millions of SoB.

The number of Commissars has absolutely no bearing on the number of Sororitas and to suggest that they do is an entirely fallacious argument.

This also fails to take into account that the Schola Progenium is a place for the orphans of Imperial Servants, not a place for every child in the Imperium or even most of them. It does not take into account that the majority of Progena are destined for the Adeptus Terra, only the select few become Commissars, Sororitas, Inquisitors or members of the Officio Assassinorm. Nor indeed do these institutions recruit solely from the Schola Progenium, it is merely a useful place to find disciplined and indoctrinated potential recruits.

Why on Earth would their numbers be less than the Space Mary-Sues?

That has no bearing on how many there actually are. It should also be remembered that the Sororitas only exist due to the tenuous argument that the Decree Passive forbids the Ecclesiarchy maintaining men under arms but does not specify women, that the Ecclesiarchy even have a military force as powerful as the Sororitas at all is a great boon. Considering the attitude of the Sororitas to potential recruits there is no reason to suppose that they would swell their numbers to hundreds of thousands or millions just for the sake of it.

For instance, when the Sororitas was founded there were only 4,000 Daughters of the Emperor, split into two Convents. With recruits coming from the Schola Progenium once more the Sororitas ranks grew to 10,000. Skip ahead two and half thousand years and two more Orders were formed and the Convent buildings were expanded to accomadate a whopping *gasp* 15,000 warriors each. However, as I've said many times and no-one seems inclined to acknowledge the current numbers of Battle Sisters is down on the numbers that existed in those earlier times. There is no indication that there exist, or have existed millions of Battle Sisters.

Like I say, if the background mentioned such huge figures that would be great but it doesn't. The numbers we are given account for several tens of thousands of Battle Sisters not millions.

Also, like I say, if there were millions of Battle Sisters that would be a military force certainly more numerous and arguably more powerful than the Legionnes Astartes during the Great Crusade, such a force would sweep all before it. Is such a force indicated in the background though? The answer is no.


However, since none of this has anything to do with technology and since I've indulged in replying to posts far more times than I should have I'm going to stop here.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Technology @ 2011/01/21 02:38:07

Post by: Melissia

Most female graduates of the Schola Progenium are Sisters, as pointed out by Ciaphas Cain, female Commissars, Stormtroopers, etc are rare because the Ecclesiarchy is generally pushing its female Schola students to join the Sisterhood. By the way, are people still actually paying attention to Gogsnik?

Silverthorne wrote:Wow, Mary Sue much?

All Sisters graduate from the Schola Progenium, the same school which also produces stormtroopers and commissars. No Sister is without remarkable combat ability due to that simple fact, though Battle Sisters specialize in it.

Reply by: poontangler - click to view full reply 

37127

Technology @ 2011/01/21 05:14:13

Post by: poontangler

Melissia wrote: By the way, are people still actually paying attention to Gogsnik? All Sisters graduate from the Schola Progenium, the same school which also produces stormtroopers and commissars. No Sister is without remarkable combat ability due to that simple fact, though Battle Sisters specialize in it.

I lost interest it became a thing of if say white he is going to say black.

But back to the subject of Imperial Technology, I find it Ironic that the Imperium worships the emperor, and technology, considering the Emperors apparent Atheism, and a strong belief in science.

Reply by: Ascalam - click to view full reply 

37700

Technology @ 2011/01/21 05:56:26

Post by: Ascalam

and the fluff from the necron codex that hints rather strongly that the Machine God is a C'tan and that a fair bit of the Mechanicus tech is based on Necron tech

Reply by: Brother Coa - click to view full reply 

31733

Technology @ 2011/01/21 07:25:24

Post by: Brother Coa

I had an interesting thought one day...
I watched "SG-1" and StarGate reminds me of webway. IF webways can get you anywhere in the galaxy in a matter of moments is it possible there is one webway leading to other galaxy?
And if Eldar are the successors of the Old Ones, how that they can't build new webways? Or colonize new worlds outside Imperial domain?
Ork technology is like moder day gypsy-homeless space program, Then how the hell do Orks travel to new planets? Do they use warp or they just float to another planet?

To me SoB are one of the most powerful military arms of the Imperium. They are like SM only lack genetic alterations, but have much stronger faith than marines. The only two defeats I know they suffer is at Sanctuary 101 (witch was surprise attack) and Kaurava conflict (where they where overpowered by IG). In every other battle they have won, and for that army that's beyond excellent. And their use of flamers and meltas make them excellent against infantry at close combat and armor.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Technology @ 2011/01/21 07:29:03

Post by: Melissia

The Kaurava conflict has no canon ending except that the Space Marines lost.

Also, that's really false. GW has used Sisters as a scratching post for a while now. Just look at the entire history for the Order of Our Martyred Lady, which are practically a Sisters variant of the Lamentors.

Reply by: Sir Pseudonymous - click to view full reply 

37036

Technology @ 2011/01/21 08:06:20

Post by: Sir Pseudonymous

Brother Coa wrote:I had an interesting thought one day...
I watched "SG-1" and StarGate reminds me of webway. IF webways can get you anywhere in the galaxy in a matter of moments is it possible there is one webway leading to other galaxy?

There aren't "webways," there is a single "webway," which is a labyrinthine network of passages and chambers, some quite large, like those making up Commoragh, and some barely large enough to pass through on foot, which has even less relation to the materium than the warp apparently does, since that can be navigated by ships moving in a more or less straight line from point a to point b. The webway can also be reconfigured by its inhabitants, and some Craftworld Eldar. There also happen to be severely damaged sections, where the warp bleeds through, caused by the birth of Slaanesh if I recall correctly. If there are passages that lead to other galaxies, either they've been destroyed, are lost (it is an incomprehensible labyrinth, after all), are past areas that can't be safely traveled due to warp leakage, or only the Harlequins know about them, and aren't sharing the knowledge.

And if Eldar are the successors of the Old Ones, how that they can't build new webways? Or colonize new worlds outside Imperial domain?

They're not the successors, they're the creations of the Old Ones; though they can't repair the damaged sections of the webway (or lack the will to do so), I believe they can create new entrances, as the portable gates available to Dark Eldar would suggest such.

The Craftworld Eldar can't colonize new worlds because they're too busy angsting with angsty angst about how they're dying because they don't take measures to recover and instead just sit around angstily angsting about their sorry predicament.

The Exodites can't colonize new worlds because they live in a self-inflicted stone age on planets in the middle of nowhere.

The Dark Eldar could, but don't because Commoragh is more than large enough for their needs, if it ever was not they could simply add more space to it (it's already described as making the largest of Imperial hives look like an anthill beside a mountain, implying that volume-wise it's a good deal larger than a planet, most of which is habitable structure), and it serves as a safe haven, being unassailable unless invaders are deliberately let in with someone with the power to do so (or apparently if gigantic mary sues with obscene amounts of plot armor commit inexcusable heresy and use captured Dark Eldar ships to sneak a few squads through a gate, according to someone's account of a Salamanders book), at which point they may be easily isolated (as Commoragh is a piecemeal collection of interconnected webway chambers, rather than one large space), and would be outnumbered by the trillions by the most advanced race in the galaxy, barring perhaps the Necrons (who being mindless automatons can't really be said to be too advanced, aside from what went into their initial construction).

Ork technology is like moder day gypsy-homeless space program, Then how the hell do Orks travel to new planets? Do they use warp or they just float to another planet?

Space hulks (mostly random travel), Roks (semi-guided travel), and teleporters (either and/or both random and guided, considering they're orks after all).

To me SoB are one of the most powerful military arms of the Imperium. They are like SM only lack genetic alterations, but have much stronger faith than marines. The only two defeats I know they suffer is at Sanctuary 101 (witch was surprise attack) and Kaurava conflict (where they where overpowered by IG). In every other battle they have won, and for that army that's beyond excellent. And their use of flamers and meltas make them excellent against infantry at close combat and armor.

I know they get butchered by the thousands in one of the Cain books, fighting a tyranid swarm, though that was penance for [REDACTED]*, and then there's the scene in the otherwise horrendous book Grey Knights, where several hundred have about half a dozen Grey Knights pummel through them, and later get hacked apart by a few hundred Guardsmen led by the rogue Inquisitor.

*

Spoiler:

Penance for being tricked by a radical Inquisitor whom they had every reason to trust and obey.

Reply by: Pilau Rice - click to view full reply 

34258

Technology @ 2011/01/21 10:48:59

Post by: Pilau Rice

Found this little bit of Info from Titan Legions back in 1994

By their efforts much information has been retrieved or can be reconstructed by the vigorous analysis and comparison of copies. Yet the most technically-advanced knowledge eludes the Adeptus Mechanicus, for the early colonists were mostly simple folk whose needs were practical. Only rarely did anyone bother to take copies of the theoretical and advanced work which the STC contained.

Reply by: Brother Coa - click to view full reply 

31733

Technology @ 2011/01/21 13:01:14

Post by: Brother Coa

Melissia wrote:The Kaurava conflict has no canon ending except that the Space Marines lost.

Also, that's really false. GW has used Sisters as a scratching post for a while now. Just look at the entire history for the Order of Our Martyred Lady, which are practically a Sisters variant of the Lamentors.

It has, Cyrus said that Imperial Guard won the campaign. Relic stated that to. So, it's logical to assume that Imperial Guard stomp SoB because Stubs has around 100 Baneblades made per month. So they easily overpowered every other faction in system.

Reply by: VenerableBrotherPelinore - click to view full reply 

36306

Technology @ 2011/01/21 14:14:26

Post by: VenerableBrotherPelinore

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Kaurava conflict has no canon ending except that the Space Marines lost.

Also, that's really false. GW has used Sisters as a scratching post for a while now. Just look at the entire history for the Order of Our Martyred Lady, which are practically a Sisters variant of the Lamentors.

It has, Cyrus said that Imperial Guard won the campaign. Relic stated that to. So, it's logical to assume that Imperial Guard stomp SoB because Stubs has around 100 Baneblades made per month. So they easily overpowered every other faction in system.

Actually, Cyrus (And Avitus/Tarkus) stated that the Kaurava Conflict was a great loss for the Chapter, a blight on their history, and that Boreale and many others died. That was all. He didn't even really say that the Space Marines lost the conflict, just put into terms that imply they either lost, or it was a pyrrhic victory. Relic actually refuses to give a canonical ending bar that the Space Marines lost so many.

The hundred Baneblades a month is fictitious. It's unknown how long it took them to build, crew and ship the Baneblades that were sent across the sector in the Kaurava campaign, so stating they had a hundred a month is simply making a figure up. The only thing we do know is they'd recently shipped one hundred Baneblades across the sector shortly before their stronghold was attacked, and thus didn't have one on hand to repel the invaders.

It was also poor writing on ILE's part to use a figure so large for such a revered and hard to produce super-heavy class tank. Having one super-heavy in a regiment is considered a great asset, the sheer amount of firepower they bring is enormous. Stating that the 252nd Conservator Regiment was able to mass-produce them, on a scale as least equalling a forge-world, if not greatly exceeding, was poor form.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Technology @ 2011/01/21 14:20:41

Post by: Melissia

It's quite obvious that Sandy Mitchel doesn't like Sisters, considering his consistent verbal abuse of them in the Cain books. It's the most annoying part of the books, almost a bit preachy even.

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Kaurava conflict has no canon ending except that the Space Marines lost.

Also, that's really false. GW has used Sisters as a scratching post for a while now. Just look at the entire history for the Order of Our Martyred Lady, which are practically a Sisters variant of the Lamentors.

It has, Cyrus said that Imperial Guard won the campaign. Relic stated that to.

No, he did not, and no, they did not.

Cyrus said that Karuava was a mistake. That's all. I have stayed ontop of Relic's blog since DoW2 began, they have not declared a winner, it's intended to be specifically vague.

Reply by: Brother Coa - click to view full reply 

31733

Technology @ 2011/01/21 15:37:23

Post by: Brother Coa

VenerableBrotherPelinore wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Kaurava conflict has no canon ending except that the Space Marines lost.

Also, that's really false. GW has used Sisters as a scratching post for a while now. Just look at the entire history for the Order of Our Martyred Lady, which are practically a Sisters variant of the Lamentors.

It has, Cyrus said that Imperial Guard won the campaign. Relic stated that to. So, it's logical to assume that Imperial Guard stomp SoB because Stubs has around 100 Baneblades made per month. So they easily overpowered every other faction in system.

Actually, Cyrus (And Avitus/Tarkus) stated that the Kaurava Conflict was a great loss for the Chapter, a blight on their history, and that Boreale and many others died. That was all. He didn't even really say that the Space Marines lost the conflict, just put into terms that imply they either lost, or it was a pyrrhic victory. Relic actually refuses to give a canonical ending bar that the Space Marines lost so many.

The hundred Baneblades a month is fictitious. It's unknown how long it took them to build, crew and ship the Baneblades that were sent across the sector in the Kaurava campaign, so stating they had a hundred a month is simply making a figure up. The only thing we do know is they'd recently shipped one hundred Baneblades across the sector shortly before their stronghold was attacked, and thus didn't have one on hand to repel the invaders.

It was also poor writing on ILE's part to use a figure so large for such a revered and hard to produce super-heavy class tank. Having one super-heavy in a regiment is considered a great asset, the sheer amount of firepower they bring is enormous. Stating that the 252nd Conservator Regiment was able to mass-produce them, on a scale as least equalling a forge-world, if not greatly exceeding, was poor form.

" Officially, the Kaurava Campaign was ultimately won by the Imperial Guard's 252nd Conservator Regiment under the command of General Vance Stubbs and the Kaurava System remained a part of the Imperium of Man."
From the Wikipedia - and for the record, Cyrus mentioned that at the end of the game. Also there is a wargear - Iron Halo that was intended for Boreale. The explanation states that Kaurava was not conquered, AT LEAST NOT BY BLOOD RAVENS. So it only left IG and SoB. Ana as told that sisters was overpowered by the Guard share number, and Lexicanum state that Agna died - it only leaves Imperial Guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:It's quite obvious that Sandy Mitchel doesn't like Sisters, considering his consistent verbal abuse of them in the Cain books. It's the most annoying part of the books, almost a bit preachy even.

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Kaurava conflict has no canon ending except that the Space Marines lost.

Also, that's really false. GW has used Sisters as a scratching post for a while now. Just look at the entire history for the Order of Our Martyred Lady, which are practically a Sisters variant of the Lamentors.

It has, Cyrus said that Imperial Guard won the campaign. Relic stated that to.

No, he did not, and no, they did not.

Cyrus said that Karuava was a mistake. That's all. I have stayed ontop of Relic's blog since DoW2 began, they have not declared a winner, it's intended to be specifically vague.

Read it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000:_Dawn_of_War:_Soulstorm#Canonical_Ending

under canonical ending.

Reply by: 1hadhq - click to view full reply 

6838

Technology @ 2011/01/21 15:47:31

Post by: 1hadhq

Ascalam wrote:and the fluff from the necron codex that hints rather strongly that the Machine God is a C'tan and that a fair bit of the Mechanicus tech is based on Necron tech

Oh a post ON Topic.

Hard to find one between the pirating of this thread

Yes, the hints are there and C'tan / necron are not the worst source for technology. They should just hand over their space drives and gauss weapons .
Teleporting guard with disintegrators

Reply by: poontangler - click to view full reply 

37127

Technology @ 2011/01/21 17:06:11

Post by: poontangler

It would not be surprising, A Tomb Ship did actually try to land on mars.

Reply by: purplefood - click to view full reply 

27391

Technology @ 2011/01/21 17:13:17

Post by: purplefood

poontangler wrote:It would not be surprising, A Tomb Ship did actually try to land on mars.

2... and they managed it... though i think they were blow up before they could escape... Necrons really are scarily more advanced than most other races.

Reply by: 1hadhq - click to view full reply 

6838

Technology @ 2011/01/21 18:34:07

Post by: 1hadhq

Tomb ship? Cairn class?

IIRC it were cruisers and they got blown up,

Death on Arrival.

Just remember: the necrons don't like tresspassers in their tombs, but do not oppose the IoM openly.
They get along with BA, so watch them closely ( I fear mr ward does the necron dex, right? ).

It is however, remarkable that necrons teleport and the IoM also does. Be inspired..

Now, the necrons may dislike the ad mechs as possible groupies, but why not tease the tech addicts with a few secrets?
Baiting the food ressource of the future when their C'tan masters are hungry.

Reply by: purplefood - click to view full reply 

27391

Technology @ 2011/01/21 18:36:28

Post by: purplefood

In the Cain books the Necrons are weird. They seem to not be paying attention half thye time, and other times they are alerted by anything.

Reply by: Rynsester - click to view full reply 

34712

Technology @ 2011/01/21 18:36:34

Post by: Rynsester

Brother Coa wrote:

Read it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000:_Dawn_of_War:_Soulstorm#Canonical_Ending

under canonical ending.

I've never read anything about the IG winning the Kaurava campaign and the only stuff about the outcome I've heard is about the Spess Mehreens losing the campaign. Cyrus speaks about the death and incompetence of captain Boreale who led the operation but I've never heard him say anything about the IG under Vance Stubbs. However, some people have been pretty fanatically ranting about the IG winning Kaurava but it has always been fan-fic, and until I see some real sources about an IG victory in Kaurava I'm gonna presume somebody managed to post his own fantasy about the outcome on wikipedia.

Reply by: Sir Pseudonymous - click to view full reply 

37036

Technology @ 2011/01/21 21:51:43

Post by: Sir Pseudonymous

Melissia wrote:It's quite obvious that Sandy Mitchel doesn't like Sisters, considering his consistent verbal abuse of them in the Cain books. It's the most annoying part of the books, almost a bit preachy even.

Cain never has anything good to say about "pious fools" and "Emperor botherers," which makes a lot of sense when you consider that the Ciaphas Cain series is a remake of Flashman in the 40K universe (Flashman says similar things less often, but they're also generally far more obscene than Cain's comments), even mimicking its rhetorical devices and writing style. The only big thematic differences are that Cain, despite his self-deprecation, is written far more positively, and his superiors aren't bumbling idiots.

Reply by: poontangler - click to view full reply 

37127

Technology @ 2011/01/21 22:44:16

Post by: poontangler

Honestly I do not find the books to be accurate depictions of the WH40k universe.

I glanced at a book that had four space marines holding off a Kabal of Dark Eldar. I avoid the books to be honest.

Well the book to Fire Warrior was actually quite good.

Reply by: Gogsnik - click to view full reply 

17927

Technology @ 2011/01/21 23:20:05

Post by: Gogsnik

poontangler wrote:Honestly I do not find the books to be accurate depictions of the WH40k universe.

Well they are a bit tongue in cheek but then the actual usefulness of any Black Library novel in background terms is and has been debated.

As for the Necrons, if Mechanicum is anything to go by then the Emperor did succeed in defeating the Dragon and imprisoning it with the Noctis Labyrinthus with the specific intention that the Dragon would invade the minds of the future Martian colonists and provide them with advanced technological knowledge. Obviously for its own ends but harnessed by the Emperor they would provide all of the technology He required for the Great Crusade as while as to make Martians a reverential attitude towards machines that would lead to the Mechanicum and thus allow them to retain technological knowledge during the Age of Strife.

Reply by: Klawz - click to view full reply 

21170

Technology @ 2011/01/22 01:58:43

Post by: Klawz

Gogsnik wrote:

poontangler wrote:Honestly I do not find the books to be accurate depictions of the WH40k universe.

Well they are a bit tongue in cheek but then the actual usefulness of any Black Library novel in background terms is and has been debated.

As for the Necrons, if Mechanicum is anything to go by then the Emperor did succeed in defeating the Dragon and imprisoning it with the Noctis Labyrinthus with the specific intention that the Dragon would invade the minds of the future Martian colonists and provide them with advanced technological knowledge. Obviously for its own ends but harnessed by the Emperor they would provide all of the technology He required for the Great Crusade as while as to make Martians a reverential attitude towards machines that would lead to the Mechanicum and thus allow them to retain technological knowledge during the Age of Strife.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Technology @ 2011/01/22 02:18:26

Post by: Melissia

Brother Coa wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000:_Dawn_of_War:_Soulstorm#Canonical_Ending

under canonical ending.

You, sir, have been trolled.

That quote and wiki page do not have a source for that information.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Melissia wrote:It's quite obvious that Sandy Mitchel doesn't like Sisters, considering his consistent verbal abuse of them in the Cain books. It's the most annoying part of the books, almost a bit preachy even.

Cain never has anything good to say about "pious fools" and "Emperor botherers," which makes a lot of sense when you consider that the Ciaphas Cain series is a remake of Flashman in the 40K universe (Flashman says similar things less often, but they're also generally far more obscene than Cain's comments), even mimicking its rhetorical devices and writing style. The only big thematic differences are that Cain, despite his self-deprecation, is written far more positively, and his superiors aren't bumbling idiots.

THat's the thing-- sisters are pious... but not fools. They have the best military training in the Imperium barring the Space Marines (who have better if only because they live far longer and have a biology allowing them to train for longer).

Reply by: ChrisWWII - click to view full reply 

27848

Technology @ 2011/01/22 02:26:01

Post by: ChrisWWII

I would argue that Imperial Guard Storm Troopers come up at least equal to, if not superior to the Sisterhood in terms of training. To be honest, they would likely also have more experience in the field as compared to your average Sister. I like to think of the Sisters of Battle being the 'Second Military' that many nations, especially dictatorships, maintain. They're very reliable as far as political (or religious) loyalty, and can be counted on to serve as such. However, they do not constantly see service in War. From what I can tell, the Sisters primary duty is protecting shrines, and guarding pilgrimage routes, and on occasion waging Wars of Faith. They are not pitched into the front line like Storm Troopers are.

Reply by: poontangler - click to view full reply 

37127

Technology @ 2011/01/22 02:53:25

Post by: poontangler

ChrisWWII wrote:I would argue that Imperial Guard Storm Troopers come up at least equal to, if not superior to the Sisterhood in terms of training. To be honest, they would likely also have more experience in the field as compared to your average Sister. I like to think of the Sisters of Battle being the 'Second Military' that many nations, especially dictatorships, maintain. They're very reliable as far as political (or religious) loyalty, and can be counted on to serve as such. However, they do not constantly see service in War. From what I can tell, the Sisters primary duty is protecting shrines, and guarding pilgrimage routes, and on occasion waging Wars of Faith. They are not pitched into the front line like Storm Troopers are.

All wars waged by the Imperium of man are wars of faith.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Technology @ 2011/01/22 04:07:34

Post by: Melissia

ChrisWWII wrote:I would argue that Imperial Guard Storm Troopers come up at least equal to, if not superior to the Sisterhood in terms of training. To be honest, they would likely also have more experience in the field as compared to your average Sister. I like to think of the Sisters of Battle being the 'Second Military' that many nations, especially dictatorships, maintain. They're very reliable as far as political (or religious) loyalty, and can be counted on to serve as such. However, they do not constantly see service in War. From what I can tell, the Sisters primary duty is protecting shrines, and guarding pilgrimage routes, and on occasion waging Wars of Faith. They are not pitched into the front line like Storm Troopers are.

To quote Dark Heresy for a moment:

"Of course this is a matter for the Ecclesiarchy. Why? Because it involves the Imperium, of course."



Also, Sisters typically live longer than the average person. They're far more likely to receive rejuvenation treatment (especially their leaders, who can get into their third century or potentially later before really retiring). Similarly, the Sisters of Battle are pretty much explicitly stated in C:WH that they practice a form of martial arts training that allows them to exceed human limits and perform miraculous feats upon the field of battle ("[...]which allows them to accomplish feats upon the battlefield which appear miraculous to the unschooled.").

Reply by: Sir Pseudonymous - click to view full reply 

37036

Technology @ 2011/01/22 07:44:27

Post by: Sir Pseudonymous

Melissia wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Melissia wrote:It's quite obvious that Sandy Mitchel doesn't like Sisters, considering his consistent verbal abuse of them in the Cain books. It's the most annoying part of the books, almost a bit preachy even.

Cain never has anything good to say about "pious fools" and "Emperor botherers," which makes a lot of sense when you consider that the Ciaphas Cain series is a remake of Flashman in the 40K universe (Flashman says similar things less often, but they're also generally far more obscene than Cain's comments), even mimicking its rhetorical devices and writing style. The only big thematic differences are that Cain, despite his self-deprecation, is written far more positively, and his superiors aren't bumbling idiots.

THat's the thing-- sisters are pious... but not fools. They have the best military training in the Imperium barring the Space Marines (who have better if only because they live far longer and have a biology allowing them to train for longer).

You're sort of missing the point of what I was saying there: the character of Ciaphas Cain is based entirely on that of Harry Flashman (only Cain is portrayed more positively, despite his self-deprecation; he ends up in situations where retreat would be disastrous, and recognizes it, and calls himself a coward for not dying ineffectually in a doomed charge, rather finding a way to kill whatever he's facing (or distract it long enough for Jurgen to blast it apart with a melta); he is more like Flashman in the short stories though, though unfortunately a highly sanitized version), and the books borrow heavily from the writing style of the Flashman Papers, down to the rhetorical device "If I had known what lay ahead, I'd have turned right and gladly faced down [horrible thing he's trying to avoid]". Disparaging overly pious individuals is part of that character, since their beliefs are diametrically opposed to his own pragmatism and self-preservation. In the case of Cain disparaging SoB, ironically, the very traits he denounces as foolish are held by them to be virtues (fanatic devotion to the Imperial creed beyond the reasonable "daemons and xenos are bad, mmkay?" parts, for example, or an overly bold approach to dealing with the enemies of the Imperium without regard for self-preservation).


You're also disregarding organizations like the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, who receive the same degree of military training the SoB do, only without as much religious study, meaning they likely have even more combat training, and are actually sent into combat situations on a regular basis, compared to the garrison work the Sororitas do, or the low-intensity witch hunting the odd squad gets assigned to (and which would also likely include Inquisitorial Stormtroopers in greater numbers, as well).

Reply by: Brother Coa - click to view full reply 

31733

Technology @ 2011/01/22 08:56:55

Post by: Brother Coa

poontangler wrote:Honestly I do not find the books to be accurate depictions of the WH40k universe.

I glanced at a book that had four space marines holding off a Kabal of Dark Eldar. I avoid the books to be honest.

Well the book to Fire Warrior was actually quite good.

The books are the most realistic, than the movies than the games. Now that 4 SM could only hold them for several minutes before being overrun, after all if they had good ventage point and excellent cover - why not hold infantry units for everal minutes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:You, sir, have been trolled.

That quote and wiki page do not have a source for that information.

Do not have source, have you read it at all? Better yet, why not ask someone from Relic to give you official statement? Dawn of War is not Mass Effect where you have numerous ways to end one story. Relic stated: Kronus was purged by Blood Ravens, Kaurava was conquered by Imperial Guard 252'nd Konservator Regiment, and on Aurelia Apollo Diomedes may died or turned to Chaos in CR. Yet we see him alive and well and defending the sector with Blood Ravens troops - so CR also have canonical ending.
And why is so hard to imagine Imperial Guard beat SoB? or SM? Good tactician with numerous recourses and troops may defeat almost every enemy. Sister are better trained and have better equipment, but the Guard outnumber them greatly. As I recall Stubbs has under his command half of systems forces. + he have access to artillery, heavy tanks and Baneblades. If he use them viselike in advance and build strong defenses after they pass he could easily beat everyone.
After all, Imperial Guard fight for the Emperor as Space Marines and Sisters of Battle. They should fight all together against aliens, mutants and heretics - but then it wont be fair against other factions.

Reply by: ChrisWWII - click to view full reply 

27848

Technology @ 2011/01/22 10:54:13

Post by: ChrisWWII

Melissia wrote:To quote Dark Heresy for a moment:

"Of course this is a matter for the Ecclesiarchy. Why? Because it involves the Imperium, of course."


Also, Sisters typically live longer than the average person. They're far more likely to receive rejuvenation treatment (especially their leaders, who can get into their third century or potentially later before really retiring). Similarly, the Sisters of Battle are pretty much explicitly stated in C:WH that they practice a form of martial arts training that allows them to exceed human limits and perform miraculous feats upon the field of battle ("[...]which allows them to accomplish feats upon the battlefield which appear miraculous to the unschooled.").

Hmmm, to me that quote seems like the standard Ecclesiarchy wanting to make itself more important than everyone else. The government of the Imperium is nearly all politics, the kind we got a glimpse into in Eisenhorn. So, the Ecclesiarchy may think that, but it doesn't necessarily make it true. Ah well.

Now that is a good point, something I failed to consider. But somehow I think that the average Sister doesn't live that long? I mean most Marines don't live that long, and it's a rare few who live hundreds upon hundreds of years. I somehow doubt the average Sister lives longer than the average Marine....

Reply by: Klawz - click to view full reply 

21170

Technology @ 2011/01/22 12:56:48

Post by: Klawz

ChrisWWII wrote:

Melissia wrote:To quote Dark Heresy for a moment:

"Of course this is a matter for the Ecclesiarchy. Why? Because it involves the Imperium, of course."


Also, Sisters typically live longer than the average person. They're far more likely to receive rejuvenation treatment (especially their leaders, who can get into their third century or potentially later before really retiring). Similarly, the Sisters of Battle are pretty much explicitly stated in C:WH that they practice a form of martial arts training that allows them to exceed human limits and perform miraculous feats upon the field of battle ("[...]which allows them to accomplish feats upon the battlefield which appear miraculous to the unschooled.").

Hmmm, to me that quote seems like the standard Ecclesiarchy wanting to make itself more important than everyone else. The government of the Imperium is nearly all politics, the kind we got a glimpse into in Eisenhorn. So, the Ecclesiarchy may think that, but it doesn't necessarily make it true. Ah well.

Now that is a good point, something I failed to consider. But somehow I think that the average Sister doesn't live that long? I mean most Marines don't live that long, and it's a rare few who live hundreds upon hundreds of years. I somehow doubt the average Sister lives longer than the average Marine....

A Sister is just a human. She lives as long as that, without juvenout (sp?) treatments.

Reply by: Brother Coa - click to view full reply 

31733

Technology @ 2011/01/22 13:49:49

Post by: Brother Coa

Are all Necrons robots or there is some humanoid parts behind all that metal. I know they where once humanoids, and they where transformed into this robotic creatures. But are they 100% robots or not? And do Necrons fight each other like Orks or Humans? And are they dependable of some power source, like Necrons in Soulstorm?

Reply by: ChrisWWII - click to view full reply 

27848

Technology @ 2011/01/22 14:04:38

Post by: ChrisWWII

They're all robot. All Necrons are the 'souls' of the original Necrontyr race that were transferred over to the metal bodies to grant them immortality. I doubt the Necrons fight each other. So far, each tomb world has seemed to do its own thing, and they don't interact with each other.

Reply by: 1hadhq - click to view full reply 

6838

Technology @ 2011/01/22 14:08:55

Post by: 1hadhq

Brother Coa wrote:Are all Necrons robots or there is some humanoid parts behind all that metal. I know they where once humanoids, and they where transformed into this robotic creatures. But are they 100% robots or not? And do Necrons fight each other like Orks or Humans? And are they dependable of some power source, like Necrons in Soulstorm?

A non-sisters question!

Necrons are not biological creatures since the C'Tan offered immortality in a technological way, I think its like a copy of the personality transferred into the
shell of a necron. The C'TAn are creatures of "energy" bound in a shell. Clearly undestroyable as the living metal only binds them and they could return into
a new shell after beeing "killed". Necrons are a repairable source of warriors. Maybe the reason a necron can be restored is they need just to have a copy
of the data to even recreate a necron from basic materials.

Necrons defend their homes, but they do not actively attack anyone if you don't disturb them. As seen on colonized tomb worlds.
Necrons would obey orders of their respective Necron Lord and/or Ctan and oppose anything they have to, even other necrons/Ctan.
It would depend if there are staked claims of the Ctan in this galaxy, if so these necrons don't have to fight other necrons.

Necron depend on power like any "machine". Necrons were found using Imperial power cores in Dead men walking before they had their own run fully.
Would expect they have extremly efficent power sources.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Technology @ 2011/01/23 00:27:51

Post by: Melissia

Though the term "living metal" brings questions as to whether or not they are actually living... or if that's just a misnomer.

Reply by: Bjorn_Stormwolf02 - click to view full reply 

25177

Technology @ 2011/01/23 00:42:42

Post by: Bjorn_Stormwolf02

ChrisWWII wrote:Because Titans are awesome, but in all seriousness, they believe that the Titan isn't sentient, but just that its machine spirit is very, very powerful. The Imperium is weird like that...it approves of technology that has the machine spirit, which often seems like a form of AI, but does not approve of AI itself. Odd.

And the reasons the Mechanicus doesn't do anymore research is because to the Mechanicus, researching itself can be heresy. Their goal is ro find and recover the technology from the Dark Age, since humanity was at its peak then, and had 'perfect' technology. Devoting time to research instead of trying to find more lost STCs or whatever is viewed as you saying you can build something better than what humanity had in the Dark Age of Technology. And that's heresy.

Jealous hoarders of technology who want to gather all advanced tech to themselves and control what gets used and who and how they get to use it? Sounds like..... The Brotherhood of Steel

Reply by: Brother Coa - click to view full reply 

31733

Technology @ 2011/01/23 09:20:44

Post by: Brother Coa

So, to defeat Necrons you just need to cut them of their power and then they will be powerless?
And why Imperial Navy don't execute nuclear bombing on a worlds lost to Necrons? Like Damnos?

Reply by: 1hadhq - click to view full reply 

6838

Technology @ 2011/01/23 10:15:40

Post by: 1hadhq

Exterminatus is the common solution for necron held worlds, if the tools are available.
I doubt the IoM would take chances with a awakened Tomb World. There is no such thing as too much dakka applied...

Reply by: ChrisWWII - click to view full reply 

27848

Technology @ 2011/01/23 14:40:35

Post by: ChrisWWII

Correct, if you destroy the tomb, the Necrons can't be rebuilt and the problem is solved. At least for that world. The problem is destroying the tomb, and the Imperium does indeed Exterminatus any tomb planets that become active. Usually they even use cyclonic torpedoes on the planets, because they don't need to just kill all life on the planet, they need to shatter the planet into a quadrillion tiny pieces, so that nothing remains.

Of course, the Imperium doesn't like using Exterminatus for all their problems but they're often getting forced to.

Reply by: Brother Coa - click to view full reply 

31733

Technology @ 2011/01/27 07:54:32

Post by: Brother Coa

What is the level of technology on most Imperial worlds? When I read some book or play DoW, I get the felling that most civilized worlds are like 20th century Earth. But I know that there are worlds where people are without any technology, and there are Hive-Worlds with advanced technology everywhere...

Reply by: ChrisWWII - click to view full reply 

27848

Technology @ 2011/01/27 10:32:33

Post by: ChrisWWII

Most Imperial worlds are at the same level of technology as the general Imperium. The worlds that either have advanced technology (like the forge worlds) and the worlds that have crap technology (like the feral worlds) are the exception rather than the rule. If you think about it, it does make sense. If the Imperium takes over a world with 21st century technology, they want more productivity out of said world. As a result, they import whatever technology they need to make the world more productive, creating a pretty standardized tech level across the Imperium.