Hi dakka
I just wanted to find out what you think of gw

Imo

I do alot of reading around the internet and alot of people bad mouth gw, and i'm asking are they really that bad. I listen to 40k radio and other podcasts , and they talk alot about gw, it's gotten so annoying I try and skip it. On dakka and otherfan sites people moan e at gw all the time.

But ask yourself this.

Did you come up with somthing as awsome as 40k ?, and if they are that annoying, why don't you just buy from someone else?

Here what people moan about most.

Price rises. Listen people, in the uk the vat goes up somtimes and gw are forced to put up prices, just like clothes shops, eletrical shops and most other shops. Ocasionly they put up prices without being forced and i don't know why, but it's a buisness and desighned to make money.

Secondly people are now moaning abouth cahpterhouse. On the gw website you can get a list of thing you can and cannot do with their ip , chapterhouse should have read it, and if you do read it you realise they are very leniant, as long as you don't make money orsay its official, they don't mind.

Third people moaning they don't do enough. Now some people say gw needs to do more stuff and take more risks, but at the end of the day i'd rather gw are a stable company who don't take risks, it's nice how calm they are because we never have to worry about our local gw closing or being taken out of some store, they're doing fine now and i hope they keep it up.

I'll end this rant by saying

Put yourself in gw's shoes before you moan at them, and if you still have a problem with them, don't buy their stuff.

Well thats my veiw what does everybody else think?

1. They don't care if I buy/don't buy their stuff. I'm not their target market.

2. I buy the sculpts that I like, but I'd probably buy much more if I liked the rules.

3. See point number one.

I'm always happy to admit that I love GW, and I love the worlds and models that they have created. I too grow increasingly bored with listening to people moan- especially people who continue to pay out money to a company that they seem to think is evil.

But then.... anything with a large following attracts a lot of complaints- even from the people who secretly love it. Just spend 5 mins (or less) on one of the World of Warcraft forums, and look a the mad whinging skillz that go on on them! And yet, none of those people complaining would ever give up the game- heck, they'd probably flip out if someone took it away from them!

It seems to be some unspoken law of the world: success attracts negativity, and the most negative are often the most loyal.

I have a love/hate relationship with GW. I love the GW from 2000-2005ish. I hate the current direction the company has taken both in business and in model design.

WFB plastics are becoming more and more difficult to convert with due to almost every race having some unique slowed way of fitting together. Take Bretonnian men at arms and empire infantry for examle. Can't interchange arms easily as brets seam at the elbow and empire at the shoulder. Head swaps are about it and even then require some filing.

Warrios of Chaos are another example of models where head swaps are damn near the only easy kitbash you can do.

The quality of the sculpts has gone up, but the quality of design has gone down IMO.

Do they have an amazing game? Yes
Do they have amazing models that are better than most? Yes
Do their prices continually rise and irk us? Yes
Does the appreciation of us as players constantly seem to dwindle? Yes again

It's kind of hard to have a "Yes-" or "No-" only answer for this question. I love the game they have created. I have had great customer service when there have been problems with orders or store bought purchases. But I have also been growing more and more upset with crappy WDs, rising costs, and silence when it comes to releasing information about upcoming models (more than a month in advance). Will I stop playing? Only when there is nobody to play against. Will I stop buying? The way they are going, probably as soon as I get married. I'll only update with codexes.

I like their product, but their way of gradually releasing the latest killer codex and all that yattah yattah we all love to hate does annoy me.

I have no problem with their prices, they put a lot of work into things. If we don't like it we don't have to buy from them. They provide meeting places for players, encourage the hobby, and so on. My only gripe is their unintentional encouragement of codex wandwagon jumping and WAAC list clones we see over and over again because of poorly thought out game balance from one codex to the next.

I would so love to have a consolidated rule set where all armies are balanced from the starting line, rather than some being drastically favored over others. Since that isn't going to happen, we make the best of it.

But all in all, that isn't GWs fault, it's the players that cause the clone army builds and competetive points misering and all that stuff that ruins the game by taking advantage of every little thing they can scrape out of their codex to min-max a build. GW just makes it possible for them to do it because of questionable rules design. If that's their worst offense, compared to all the good art, background, atmosphere, and all the hobby enthusiasm they help generate I'd say they are pretty cool.

Sure, I can get angry at the prices but it won't do anything. It just makes getting a new model even nicer. Also, Out of the armies I am interested, I haven't seen any particularly bad models. Granted, at about 2000-2005 they has some shizztastis sculpts. I mean REALLY bad. But nowadays, everything is lovely. Probably about 4th edition 40k models really got nicely done. And now they just keep getting better. I also think their care for fans is still there. They don't need to GW stores. Sure, it helps sell product by a butt ton but PP doesn't have its own stores and its doing all right.

its the lack of creativity the armies have, people tell me i should put up and just accept it, but I don't buy this stuff to just put up and shut up, not how I work
if I am going to spend money on something I want to enjoy it
the game is far to broken, the armies are all too bland, sure the models are nice but so is fantasy and they ruined that game, in my opinion
that and their fluff sucks and never moves forward
its so boring, the 40k books just are so slow and marines generally bother me (there's 7 marine armies-why do we need that many)

Meh, GWs just GW. You hate them but you still buy every one of their products.

Only real complaint is things like ward codexes, and 4th edition codexes that still need updates. Yes GW, Necrons and Tau ARE STILL PLAYED.

And on that note, give the crons a ward codex. I feel like winning alot more with them.

I like their products. 'nuff said.

If i Did not like games workshop i would not play their games.Even if they are getting expensive,But the cost of pewter is high so the cost is passed on to the consumer.So i will praise them for buying the new machines and slowly changing over to plastic.I just wish they would do something with that dummy of a CEO.I guess he is not that bad.their have been worse CEO"s of companys,remember Enron?


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Xanadu wrote:its the lack of creativity the armies have, people tell me i should put up and just accept it, but I don't buy this stuff to just put up and shut up, not how I work
if I am going to spend money on something I want to enjoy it
the game is far to broken, the armies are all too bland, sure the models are nice but so is fantasy and they ruined that game, in my opinion
that and their fluff sucks and never moves forward
its so boring, the 40k books just are so slow and marines generally bother me (there's 7 marine armies-why do we need that many)

Wow what planet have you been on?This is the best ED. fantasy yet.I started with the 3rd.ED. i love the way they combined the old fantasy with the new and changed the turn sequence.It reminds that they took 5 th and 6th and mashed them together.By the way i started playing the rpg before they had warhammer fantasy battles!

I hate codex creep and GW's business model in general. I love that they FAQ'ed my Dark Angels though, so for now I vote yes.

Voted "yes", because despite it all I *do* like GW, and in particular the history GW represents.

I just wish they liked me back, and didn't try to price-hike their way out of a sales slump.

GW can't be any worse than neutral. If it gets to a point where the quality isn't good enough or the prices too high then you just stop being a GW customer, and you are then neutral with the company. The only way that changes is if GW forces you to buy their stuff, or they somehow trick you into it.

As for me, I like they're games as beer & pretzels fun, and a chance to put their fine models out on the board, all looking cool. The prices aren't cheap, but in terms of buying a box set every month or so, it's pretty trivial.

I started as a GW gamer back in 1987 or so. My group played Rogue Trader and WHFB, coming into it from board-and roleplaying games. We hopped on many of their other releases as they started coming out: Blood Bowl, Man o'War, Space Hulk, Heroquest Adeptus Titanicus/Space Marine and just before i left for University, Necromunda. We ended up gravitating more and more toward Epic, at the end, because we had an easy time getting big armies assembled and because it has fewer of the problems the other systems were plagued by, which were the usual compaints, even back then. Eventually, I fell out of miniatures gaming, as my interest in GW's IP could be covered elsewhere: the computer games (I still have the Space Hulk floppy disks, box and manual), occasionally reading a novel and browsing codexes and army books of friends who stayed in. And playing Blood Bowl now and then.

My thing was that if I was going to invest as much time - which really is the issue - in a miniatures game as GW's army size demands, I wanted more in return than just a beer & pretzels game. I can get better value for my money with boardgames, there. The tomes of army selection and comp restrictions I saw in WHFB kept me away - not that the idea is bad in itself, but the added level of complexity needed to make the game tournament friendly should not be up to the players, that is the company's responsibility (had I not been so busy with other things when 6th came out with Ravening Hordes, I might well have come back, though).! 40k just isn't what I am looking for in a wargame anymore.

They're not that bad, but they most definitely are not providing what I am looking for in a miniatures wargame. I am very happy with my "second wind" of miniatures gaming, now that there finally are some realistic alternatives.

moonshine wrote:...ask yourself this.

Did you come up with somthing as awsome as 40k ?, and if they are that annoying, why don't you just buy from someone else?

No, but they didn't come up with 40K either. Its all ripped off from various other sources. I will admit that they are unique in how they implemented all the 'borrowed' ideas that they so vicously defend as their own genuine IP, but that still doesn't validate their 'originality'. I love the fluff like the next guy, but its badly implemented into their game.

And I do buy from other sources.

moonshine wrote:Put yourself in gw's shoes before you moan at them, and if you still have a problem with them, don't buy their stuff.

Well thats my veiw what does everybody else think?

Since you asked, here is what I think.
Its easy to understand GW's stance. Sell rubes garbage rules for great models "We are a models company that makes rules in order to sell models" (A paraphrased quote that GW made at one point in time) at exorbitant prices increased yearly and sometimes bi-yearly.

I have invested not only an immense amount of money in their products, but quite a few years of time as well. I will bitch and moan about them as much as I like and buy from them whenever I like, thank you very much.

Your fascist and illogical defense of GW is much appreciated.

I like the products, dislike the corporation - similar attitude I have towards Microsoft.

I don't like how they market stuff (although I don't expose myself to too much of it now anyway) nor the fact they are profit-focussed instead of customer-focussed.

I'm starting to look at other systems (I've only recently got back to the hobby itself) and if I like what I find more than GW, I'll vote with my feet - I'll buy from them, not GW.

Misguidance wrote:I'm always happy to admit that I love GW, and I love the worlds and models that they have created.

Yes, the fluff is nice. The minis are mainly meh.

malfred wrote:1. They don't care if I buy/don't buy their stuff. I'm not their target market.

2. I buy the sculpts that I like, but I'd probably buy much more if I liked the rules.

3. See point number one.

+1000

timetowaste85 wrote:Do they have an amazing game? Yes
Do they have amazing models that are better than most? Yes
Do their prices continually rise and irk us? Yes
Does the appreciation of us as players constantly seem to dwindle? Yes again

^'Amazing' is hardly appropriate. GW did NOT invent elves, orks or most of their canon. If you even have a slight understanding of modern and ancient history you will recognise their blatant rip-offs of names, events and their bastardisation of canon. Wiki some of the character names of space marines and see what you get. Even better... learn some historical fact and see if GW still *sparkles* for you... sycophant

AvatarForm wrote:

Misguidance wrote:I'm always happy to admit that I love GW, and I love the worlds and models that they have created.

Yes, the fluff is nice. The minis are mainly meh.

malfred wrote:1. They don't care if I buy/don't buy their stuff. I'm not their target market.

2. I buy the sculpts that I like, but I'd probably buy much more if I liked the rules.

3. See point number one.

+1000

timetowaste85 wrote:Do they have an amazing game? Yes
Do they have amazing models that are better than most? Yes
Do their prices continually rise and irk us? Yes
Does the appreciation of us as players constantly seem to dwindle? Yes again

^'Amazing' is hardly appropriate. GW did NOT invent elves, orks or most of their canon. If you even have a slight understanding of modern and ancient history you will recognise their blatant rip-offs of names, events and their bastardisation of canon. Wiki some of the character names of space marines and see what you get. Even better... learn some historical fact and see if GW still *sparkles* for you... sycophant

Posts like this make me wonder why some people are signed up to a forum that is predominantly about GW games when they clearly don't like anything to do with them.


Anyway...Sure the prices are a little steep, sure the company makes a lot of "WTF?!" decisions but I still think they could do worse.

I've spent ~£250 on a 1500 point DE army, I've aready spent >30 hours assembling them and have countless hours of painting ahead of me. On top of that I'll get 2+ hours a week of gaming out of them from here to infinity. When you look at what you get out of that investment I don't see it as being that expensive at all.

I like GW as it is today, I'm just worried that someday in the future I'll be heavily invested into games by a company just as bad as EA Games(While I'm sure some like EA Games, I don't). So whenever I complain about GW its mostly due to fear about tomorrow, for in the grimdarkness of the future...there is only good business.

I've spent ~£250 on a 1500 point DE army, I've aready spent >30 hours assembling them and have countless hours of painting ahead of me. On top of that I'll get 2+ hours a week of gaming out of them from here to infinity. When you look at what you get out of that investment I don't see it as being that expensive at all.

Interesting way of putting it - with a long term view, I hadnt really looked at things that way. Recently I have fallen into the whole "godamn GW are expensive, more price rises" frame of mind but when you phrase it so - something to ponder anyway.

Ratius wrote:

I've spent ~£250 on a 1500 point DE army, I've aready spent >30 hours assembling them and have countless hours of painting ahead of me. On top of that I'll get 2+ hours a week of gaming out of them from here to infinity. When you look at what you get out of that investment I don't see it as being that expensive at all.

Interesting way of putting it - with a long term view, I hadnt really looked at things that way. Recently I have fallen into the whole "godamn GW are expensive, more price rises" frame of mind but when you phrase it so - something to ponder anyway.

When you think that it costs £12-15 to go to the cinema and get snacks (2-3 hours max). £15 for a box of troops that takes a couple hours to assemble, an hour or so per model to paint and then you have it for life isn't all that bad.

...until you consider how poor the rules are...

That's where the value argument loses its legitimacy. For me at least.

Hellfury wrote:...until you consider how poor the rules are...

That's where the value argument loses its legitimacy. For me at least.

But what about the value of having poor rules?

Is gw really that bad ?

Yeah, they are.

Sure the rules arent perfect, but its completely playable and is great fun. If they were that bad then there wouldnt be thousands of people playing it would there?

Just because the rules can be confusing at times (and on rare occasions dont make sense at all ) it doesnt mean my argument is flawed. Carrying on my analogy, you can still pay to see a crap movie and still have a good time if your there with friends. Playing 40k with friends you can find a way around all the stupid rules and still have alot of fun for your money.

Gorechild wrote:Sure the rules arent perfect, but its completely playable and is great fun. If they were that bad then there wouldnt be thousands of people playing it would there?

Just because the rules can be confusing at times (and on rare occasions dont make sense at all ) it doesnt mean my argument is flawed. Carrying on my analogy, you can still pay to see a crap movie and still have a good time if your there with friends. Playing 40k with friends you can find a way around all the stupid rules and still have alot of fun for your money.

In the grand scheme of things, GW provides a product. It has flaws. Some aspects of the product that are still currently used date back to almost a decade ago. Some newer aspects confuse the heck out of us.

But then we have the GW supporters like yakface who are there to FAQ and help us understand the rules.

In the grand taco of things, it is for you to decide if it is worth playing this game and collecting the miniatures.

Oh yes, and look over at Hasbro and what they have done by comparison.

Gorechild wrote:Sure the rules arent perfect, but its completely playable and is great fun. If they were that bad then there wouldnt be thousands of people playing it would there?

Just because the rules can be confusing at times (and on rare occasions dont make sense at all ) it doesnt mean my argument is flawed. Carrying on my analogy, you can still pay to see a crap movie and still have a good time if your there with friends. Playing 40k with friends you can find a way around all the stupid rules and still have alot of fun for your money.

I never said that your argument is flawed. Careful reading of my post reveals that it is my subjective opinion that the rules are utter pants and no matter how pretty the models are, the rules simply do not carry the same care as the models exhibit. Pretty models do not make up for the rather poor rules which show an almost palpable contempt for the consumer base.

Fun for you may be another's torture.

Hence the qualifying statement in the paragraph: "For me at least".

There are things that I like about GW and other things that I dislike about them.

The thing that I like most about GW is their models.
They have made some great games like Blood Bowl.
GW has kept most of their specialist games in print, and even made their rules free to download.
They have stores where you can go and paint and play games.

Their rules are poorly written and terribly unbalanced.
The current rules for 40k, fantasy, and wotr are not as flexible or fun as an rpg but neither are they suitable for competitive play.
Certain units have rules that are so poor, they are essentially unplayable.
The new rules for fantasy and wotr encourage the use of an excessive number of miniatures.
Many of the unique aspects of armies are being taken away ( for example, all of the new fantasy armies have giant creatures)
Some of their pricing, such as the great swords, is way too high.
I don't like the way they treat some of their employees.

One comment that is often made is to simply ditch GW and play another game. The reason more people do not do this is that not that many other games have a decent player base. Thus if you jump ship you may not be able to find games. I think that with the rise in popularity of Warmachine and Flames of War many people will ditch GW.

I think they could half the prices and people would buy twice as much.

I've been ok with the rules, they work ok for me. Can be a little frustrating with seeing the same list over and over but that's people exploting it IMO

Can't decide between all those subtle options of the poll

The only real problem I have, is that all the staff eye-hump my girlfriend when we're in there.
They never get female models who play Fantasy, in my local store, that is.

Gorechild wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:

Misguidance wrote:I'm always happy to admit that I love GW, and I love the worlds and models that they have created.

Yes, the fluff is nice. The minis are mainly meh.

malfred wrote:1. They don't care if I buy/don't buy their stuff. I'm not their target market.

2. I buy the sculpts that I like, but I'd probably buy much more if I liked the rules.

3. See point number one.

+1000

timetowaste85 wrote:Do they have an amazing game? Yes
Do they have amazing models that are better than most? Yes
Do their prices continually rise and irk us? Yes
Does the appreciation of us as players constantly seem to dwindle? Yes again

^'Amazing' is hardly appropriate. GW did NOT invent elves, orks or most of their canon. If you even have a slight understanding of modern and ancient history you will recognise their blatant rip-offs of names, events and their bastardisation of canon. Wiki some of the character names of space marines and see what you get. Even better... learn some historical fact and see if GW still *sparkles* for you... sycophant

Posts like this make me wonder why some people are signed up to a forum that is predominantly about GW games when they clearly don't like anything to do with them.
Anyway...Sure the prices are a little steep, sure the company makes a lot of "WTF?!" decisions but I still think they could do worse.
I've spent ~£250 on a 1500 point DE army, I've aready spent >30 hours assembling them and have countless hours of painting ahead of me. On top of that I'll get 2+ hours a week of gaming out of them from here to infinity. When you look at what you get out of that investment I don't see it as being that expensive at all.

Gorechild wrote:

Ratius wrote:

I've spent ~£250 on a 1500 point DE army, I've aready spent >30 hours assembling them and have countless hours of painting ahead of me. On top of that I'll get 2+ hours a week of gaming out of them from here to infinity. When you look at what you get out of that investment I don't see it as being that expensive at all.

Interesting way of putting it - with a long term view, I hadnt really looked at things that way. Recently I have fallen into the whole "godamn GW are expensive, more price rises" frame of mind but when you phrase it so - something to ponder anyway.

When you think that it costs £12-15 to go to the cinema and get snacks (2-3 hours max). £15 for a box of troops that takes a couple hours to assemble, an hour or so per model to paint and then you have it for life isn't all that bad.

Gorechild wrote:Sure the rules arent perfect, but its completely playable and is great fun. If they were that bad then there wouldnt be thousands of people playing it would there?

Just because the rules can be confusing at times (and on rare occasions dont make sense at all ) it doesnt mean my argument is flawed. Carrying on my analogy, you can still pay to see a crap movie and still have a good time if your there with friends. Playing 40k with friends you can find a way around all the stupid rules and still have alot of fun for your money.

Point Gorechild. Noone said they DESPISE or HATE gw... however, they are horribly flawed in their approach to their chosen customer base, often outright ignorant. Try arguing the validity of GW's pricing strategy with a Red Shirt... they are programmed with Marketing spiel and gw'isms to respond, but if you push them they change the topic or break down...

In fact, you outright deny your arguements being flawed, yet it is clearly obvious to others reading that they are...

Gorechild, are you a red shirt?

obsidianaura wrote:I think they could half the prices and people would buy twice as much.

I've been ok with the rules, they work ok for me. Can be a little frustrating with seeing the same list over and over but that's people exploting it IMO

Technically, I think they'd lose money if that were true, as they'd still have the same production costs, albeit slightly reduced for volume.

I love 40k. But I only like GW.

AvatarForm wrote: Point Gorechild. Noone said they DESPISE or HATE gw... however, they are horribly flawed in their approach to their chosen customer base, often outright ignorant. Try arguing the validity of GW's pricing strategy with a Red Shirt... they are programmed with Marketing spiel and gw'isms to respond, but if you push them they change the topic or break down...

In fact, you outright deny your arguements being flawed, yet it is clearly obvious to others reading that they are...

Gorechild, are you a red shirt?

God no! I haven't bought anything directly from GW for years and only ever venture there if I can't get a game in at home with mates (which is maybe once in the last year ).

I haven't said anything about their approach to their customer base, I dislike their approach to a lot of things. All I've said is, for the amount of time you can spend on them, their models aren't that expensive when compaired to other activities and that their rules are (although not flawless) perfectly playable.

Balance wrote:

obsidianaura wrote:I think they could half the prices and people would buy twice as much.

I've been ok with the rules, they work ok for me. Can be a little frustrating with seeing the same list over and over but that's people exploting it IMO

Technically, I think they'd lose money if that were true, as they'd still have the same production costs, albeit slightly reduced for volume.

I'm certianly no expert I just don't think that it'd cost GW that much more to double production. The main outgoing I'd bet is their LGSs.

It'd be interesting to know how much they can produce and what the demand is. I don't think we're buying their stuff anything like as fast than they're able to produce it.

I say this speculating wildly

It's a love/hate relationship.

I love their product, but hate the inflated prices.

I appreciate their customer service, but hate that the corporation is arrogant and run by a board of directors who care nothing of the actual product they produce.

I like GW, always have and probably always will. I like their products, fluff and customer support. Sure they are expensive but most hobbys are. My view is if people detest gw that much then dont buy or play gw, simple. If its just the rules you dont like then either come up with your own and see how easy it is or use another games systems rules with gw mini's.

obsidianaura wrote:I think they could half the prices and people would buy twice as much.

Maybe, but that means nothing to the company if manufacturing costs and overheads are more than that

Balance wrote:Technically, I think they'd lose money if that were true, as they'd still have the same production costs, albeit slightly reduced for volume.

The increased distribution costs would possibly offset any cost reduction of increased scale.

They have made/are making the game I have played for 15+ years. I vote "Yes".

It's been said already, so I won't belabor the point too much.

GW has some of the best miniatures, period, on the market. I haven't played 40k for a while, or Fantasy in years, but I still have several thousand points of Tyranids and Lizardmen. I keep them because they're awesome miniatures. When I can, I work them into D+D or board games because I really love them. Heck, I even adore my paddle-hands warriors and miniature Hive Tyrant, as goofy as those models are. The 40K fluff, as derivative as it might be, has a great over-the-top space opera feel to it that I just haven't seen replicated anywhere else.

As for the company itself, it's never let me, as a consumer, down. The game's always been pricey, but that's hardly a problem specific to GW; whenever I've had a problem with one of their items (a rare occurrence), staff was friendly, polite and resolved the issue quickly and without charge.

My major problem with GW products aren't the models or the how the company treats me -- it's the terrible ruleset. Someone earlier called the company's offerings "beer & pretzel games," and it's a good analog for the fiddly, overly complicated rules. Unfortunately, I've never spent more than 15 minutes and 10 USD on a beer+pretzel game. Bottom line -- I play WarmaHordes for the rules, but I have a secret love for GW minis. (Maybe I oughta just homebrew a Lizardman-and-Tyranids Hordes faction.)

So like GW? Yes and no. I'll keep buying the occasional mini I like from them, and if they make a balanced set of rules that don't require a prophet to interpret, maybe I'll even play a game with them.

moonshine wrote:Did you come up with somthing as awsome as 40k ?, and if they are that annoying, why don't you just buy from someone else?

I do thanks.

Here what people moan about most.

Price rises. Listen people, in the uk the vat goes up somtimes and gw are forced to put up prices, just like clothes shops, eletrical shops and most other shops. Ocasionly they put up prices without being forced and i don't know why, but it's a buisness and desighned to make money.

What are you talking about, the VAT went up to 20% this year, other than the temporary drop made by the government it's been at 17.5% for 20 years. Prices rise due to inflation so it's reasonable to expect all prices to rise a bit but contrary to your examples, some things like electrical goods and clothes have become cheaper in real terms not more expensive. By comparison GW price increases are well above inflation and it's not due to "pewter prices" either. There's no point in being coy, we all know they do it, they keep putting the price up as high as customers will tolerate. By the way, simply saying "it's a business and designed to make money" does not validate the actions of any company.

Secondly people are now moaning abouth cahpterhouse. On the gw website you can get a list of thing you can and cannot do with their ip , chapterhouse should have read it, and if you do read it you realise they are very leniant, as long as you don't make money orsay its official, they don't mind.

There's a bit of a gap between what GW say what you can do their their IP and what you can actually do with their IP, and in fact what actually *is* their IP. We've been over this loads of times in the various copyright threads but I wouldn't describe GW as taking a reasonable line on the matter of IP. They claim a lot further than they can reach on some things.

Third people moaning they don't do enough. Now some people say gw needs to do more stuff and take more risks, but at the end of the day i'd rather gw are a stable company who don't take risks, it's nice how calm they are because we never have to worry about our local gw closing or being taken out of some store, they're doing fine now and i hope they keep it up.

Dear oh dear. They don't look that stable, they're okay just about. If you live in the right places you'll have seen GW stores close. I've seen independent shops cut back or stop taking their stock because the price increases and other attitudes make it difficult to justify carrying their stuff.


Maybe they look good if you compare them to other highstreet shops like McDonalds but if you compare them to other hobby companies the product may be better in absolute terms, but prices and general attitude is a lot better elsewhere. They are very corporate and carry a lot of the unpleasantness that comes with it, try looking into the personal experiences of staff and independent stores. On a personal note I've found that profit above all else is what led them to axe many of the services, games and figure lines I was interested in.

So yes, they are "really that bad", they live up to their reputation frequently enough. Whether it affects you wanting to buy into their product or not is a different matter, few big companies are particularly nice through and through but don't kid yourself that people haven't got a point when moaning about the company.

I don't much care for my local drug dealer either, doesn't stop me from buying the good s*** from him.

I like 'em a lot, but I do disagree with a fair bit of things they do.

Ah! horsegak!

A thread title that says "Is GW really that bad?" and I voted 'Yes', except the poll question is 'Do you like GW'.

I've been duped!

H.B.M.C. wrote:Ah! horsegak!

A thread title that says "Is GW really that bad?" and I voted 'Yes', except the poll question is 'Do you like GW'.

I've been duped!

It's okay, I understand you. Let them trust you and when they least expect it..

Mewens wrote:It's been said already, so I won't belabor the point too much.

GW has some of the best miniatures, period, on the market. I haven't played 40k for a while, or Fantasy in years, but I still have several thousand points of Tyranids and Lizardmen. I keep them because they're awesome miniatures. When I can, I work them into D+D or board games because I really love them. Heck, I even adore my paddle-hands warriors and miniature Hive Tyrant, as goofy as those models are. The 40K fluff, as derivative as it might be, has a great over-the-top space opera feel to it that I just haven't seen replicated anywhere else.

As for the company itself, it's never let me, as a consumer, down. The game's always been pricey, but that's hardly a problem specific to GW; whenever I've had a problem with one of their items (a rare occurrence), staff was friendly, polite and resolved the issue quickly and without charge.

My major problem with GW products aren't the models or the how the company treats me -- it's the terrible ruleset. Someone earlier called the company's offerings "beer & pretzel games," and it's a good analog for the fiddly, overly complicated rules. Unfortunately, I've never spent more than 15 minutes and 10 USD on a beer+pretzel game. Bottom line -- I play WarmaHordes for the rules, but I have a secret love for GW minis. (Maybe I oughta just homebrew a Lizardman-and-Tyranids Hordes faction.)

So like GW? Yes and no. I'll keep buying the occasional mini I like from them, and if they make a balanced set of rules that don't require a prophet to interpret, maybe I'll even play a game with them.

I think Mewens nailed it on the head here.

I guess if you can't read, then your opinion isn't worth it? Its an idiot trap!

The poll bit is desighned a little badly but it shows who reads things first. Personnaly I don't think it's bad when gw bans other models from their shop (somthing that came up in a store recently) , you don't eat kfc in macdonalds right, and precides you can say gw is a terrible company but look at clothes shops and how they make their product, using very poor workers to work for barely any money at all, whilst on gw products it usually says made in the united kindom or somthing on them, except for paint which are from france.

Maybe we also pay for decent ethnics. Oh and gw does do better customer support than most stores because it doesn't just say thanks for the money now get out does it, unlike most stores you can go and have a nice time and not buy anything, though usually the tempaition is too strong.

moonshine wrote:Maybe we also pay for decent ethnics.

I'm really hoping this is an unfortunate typo and not a comment about their chinese production...

well to be fair if you check most of the boxes it says made in nottingham

I want to like GW. I like many of their models (holy crap that Trygon is pretty!), and I do for the most part enjoy playing the games they make up to help their sales. That being said, sometimes it's just all too clear that they make the game specifically to bolster miniature sales. Of course that's not a surprise to anyone, nor should it be, but it can be bothersome sometimes. Even so, sometimes it's a good thing they do. Look at the Pyrovore; clearly they didn't try to give a nice, new model any good rules and I'm sure it has hurt sales of it.

On the other hand, they make an amazing army book like the 7th ed Dark Elves (arguably broken, I just think it was very well-balanced and wholly viable) and yet fail to capitalize on sale of new models that could have come from renewing the line rather than carrying over from prior molds.

I'd say these are among the lesser of my personal pains with GW since it really is directly because of their prices that I still haven't finished my Dark Elf army.

Well at the end of the day they are buisness first hobby second, people think thats bad i think it's great. Most hobby shops run by hobbyist for hobbyist and put buisness secon, fail quite early on

Manchu wrote:I love 40k. But I only like GW.

This is so well said that it's a pity it's not getting more notice.

There's a gigantic difference between a product one likes and the company that produces it. You all are allowed to have different opinions of the two, you know.

Gorechild wrote:Sure the rules arent perfect, but its completely playable and is great fun. If they were that bad then there wouldnt be thousands of people playing it would there?

Just because the rules can be confusing at times (and on rare occasions dont make sense at all ) it doesnt mean my argument is flawed. Carrying on my analogy, you can still pay to see a crap movie and still have a good time if your there with friends. Playing 40k with friends you can find a way around all the stupid rules and still have alot of fun for your money.

This always bothers me.

I flame 5 orks in the front of a mob...

...and 5 in the back die.

Lol.

I've just kinda been slightly, kinda really pissed at GW since they closed down armorcast.

GW

Burn them! Burn them!

GW is a profit-hungry corporation masquerading as a friend and fellow hobbyist. It's that two-faced approach, I think, that bugs a lot of people. They're not quite what you want them to be, which bugs you, but they're so close in so many ways that the disappointment is all the greater for it.

If I could find another rules set, model range, and IP that I liked as much and people to play with, I would switch over. As it stands, none of the other reasonably popular wargames appeal to me nearly as much and it's pointless to find your perfect game if you'll never be able to play. I'll stick with GW's game and player base, even if I never buy anything else from them, until something better comes along. I want wargaming and I'll have wargaming, even if that means having such an ambivalent overlord as GW.

theduncan wrote:

I've just kinda been slightly, kinda really pissed at GW since they closed down armorcast.

Wait, what?

malfred wrote:

theduncan wrote:

I've just kinda been slightly, kinda really pissed at GW since they closed down armorcast.

Wait, what?

Armorcast used to make Titans (I think they even had an emperor one) until GW shut them down for IP reasons. It was also so people would have to buy forgeworld titans at forgeworld prices ($$$$$), as opposed to armorcast prices ($$$).

However. I will forgive when the new cron dex arrives. Have Matt Ward write it please so the C'tan become super OP and warriors get SM statlines and are good again .

theduncan wrote:

malfred wrote:

theduncan wrote:

I've just kinda been slightly, kinda really pissed at GW since they closed down armorcast.

Wait, what?

Armorcast used to make Titans (I think they even had an emperor one) until GW shut them down for IP reasons. It was also so people would have to buy forgeworld titans at forgeworld prices ($$$$$), as opposed to armorcast prices ($$$).

However. I will forgive when the new cron dex arrives. Have Matt Ward write it please so the C'tan become super OP and warriors get SM statlines and are good again .

They didn't shut them down, I thought. I thought armorcast had a license and GW
chose not to renew it.

Shutting them down makes it sound like that giant castle titan thing. I forget the name.

I like that they produce models and rules for a game that has very interesting and unique background "fluff," and is popular enough to find just about anywhere you go.

I hate hate hate hate hate their prices, their slow release schedule, and their attitude of taking their customers for granted.

Tycho from Penny Arcade sums up my feelings quite well. "I would never say that the customer is always right, but it's tautology that the customer is a customer, and unless the carpet of your store is slick and dark with petroleum leaking from some fissure in the earth, those mother ers coming in the door are the reason you have a door in the first ing place."

Dreamforge. I may have gotten armorcast and dreamforge mixed up, but because GW made a big scene and all that stuff it sounds like it was dreamforge. My mistake GW, **** you for shutting down DREAMFORGE.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Ah! horsegak!

A thread title that says "Is GW really that bad?" and I voted 'Yes', except the poll question is 'Do you like GW'.

I've been duped!

That's what you get for not reading PAW, or Polls as Written.

theduncan: Ah yes, that's what they were called. Thanks for reminding me!

theduncan wrote:Dreamforge. I may have gotten armorcast and dreamforge mixed up, but because GW made a big scene and all that stuff it sounds like it was dreamforge. My mistake GW, **** you for shutting down DREAMFORGE.

I still think you have it mixed up. Dreamforge is still around as far as I know, as they released something earlier this month I believe . Maybe you are thinking of Ultraforge? The husband and wife owned company that made "Greater Daemons", dragons and such. If so, I'm pretty sure their disappearance had nothing to do with GW. Numerous rumors were that they had a kid and couldn't devote the time to their side project, they sold the company, divorce.. etc etc. In fact, I don't think anyone knows what happened to them. Just poof! . No word from them at all.

NELS1031 wrote:

theduncan wrote:Dreamforge. I may have gotten armorcast and dreamforge mixed up, but because GW made a big scene and all that stuff it sounds like it was dreamforge. My mistake GW, **** you for shutting down DREAMFORGE.

I still think you have it mixed up. Dreamforge is still around as far as I know, as they released something earlier this month I believe . Maybe you are thinking of Ultraforge? The husband and wife owned company that made "Greater Daemons", dragons and such. If so, I'm pretty sure their disappearance had nothing to do with GW. Numerous rumors were that they had a kid and couldn't devote the time to their side project, they sold the company, divorce.. etc etc. In fact, I don't think anyone knows what happened to them. Just poof! . No word from them at all.

Dreamforge also made this:

Armorcast, Dreamforge and Ultraforge all weren't crushed by GW.

Armorcast lost the licence to do the 40k scale versions of GW epic models (like Titans and Tyranid super heavies), which was a huge blow, but the existed a long time with other stuff, then went out of business for a while, then sold their moulds to new owners that are still prospering (for an evening garage business) under the same name.
http://armorcast.com/store/

Dreamforge had few products, one of them the famous Emperor Titan (sold 5 or 6 of them). They also produced a nice walker tank. The lawsuit forced a major reorganisation, but seemingly they are still around:
http://dreamforge-games.com/onlineshopping.html

Ultraforge was out of business for about a year, but is working on their new online-shop for a while, with all models except the Greater Nurgle-like Daemon. Shop not yet functional, but I check several times a week And as of 11th December 2010, they are still a pair
http://www.ultraforgeminiatures.com/

malfred wrote:

NELS1031 wrote:

theduncan wrote:Dreamforge. I may have gotten armorcast and dreamforge mixed up, but because GW made a big scene and all that stuff it sounds like it was dreamforge. My mistake GW, **** you for shutting down DREAMFORGE.

I still think you have it mixed up. Dreamforge is still around as far as I know, as they released something earlier this month I believe . Maybe you are thinking of Ultraforge? The husband and wife owned company that made "Greater Daemons", dragons and such. If so, I'm pretty sure their disappearance had nothing to do with GW. Numerous rumors were that they had a kid and couldn't devote the time to their side project, they sold the company, divorce.. etc etc. In fact, I don't think anyone knows what happened to them. Just poof! . No word from them at all.

Dreamforge also made this:

I want one of these, not that I could ever afford one.

I wish GW would at least have made them pay for the rights, but they had to kill the only emperor titan mould .

Oh bravo GW, bravo .

The thing I dislike most about GW is the contempt they show their own ruleset.

With the money they make they could quite easily employ a couple of professionals to go through each codex and minimize the problems that are encountered on every single one. They could be far more responsive to questions about ambiguous rules, hell they have a great resource in the INAT FAQ that would at least show them what people feel need clarification.

It's just a shame they aren't as zealous in sorting out their rules as they are in protecting their ip.

Before anybody says gw shouldn't sue people fur using their ip, ask yourself, would you let someone get away with making money off you're idea and not give you any money for it ?

GW is great, but expensive. Wouldn't mind if things were just a little cheaper. W40k Rules are at their best (Minus my Dark Angels Codex *hint,hint). Would like it if FW prices dropped

moonshine wrote:Before anybody says gw shouldn't sue people fur using their ip, ask yourself, would you let someone get away with making money off you're idea and not give you any money for it ?

That depends on whether or not allowing them to make money off of my IP helps or hurts my ability to make money off of my IP.

GW overprices their products completely. They show no concern for any army that won't make them as much money as the Space Marine armies.

They're management is plain and simple, a bunch of scumbags.

They fired a few great creative minds, and are just being general donkey-caves about their attitude towards their fans with all this IP protection bs.

I'm done buying from GW until they realize that their business habits are self destructive, and they will pay for it in the long run.

moonshine wrote:Hi dakka
I just wanted to find out what you think of gw

Imo

I do alot of reading around the internet and alot of people bad mouth gw, and i'm asking are they really that bad. I listen to 40k radio and other podcasts , and they talk alot about gw, it's gotten so annoying I try and skip it. On dakka and otherfan sites people moan e at gw all the time.

But ask yourself this.

Did you come up with somthing as awsome as 40k ?, and if they are that annoying, why don't you just buy from someone else?

Here what people moan about most.

Price rises. Listen people, in the uk the vat goes up somtimes and gw are forced to put up prices, just like clothes shops, eletrical shops and most other shops. Ocasionly they put up prices without being forced and i don't know why, but it's a buisness and desighned to make money.

Secondly people are now moaning abouth cahpterhouse. On the gw website you can get a list of thing you can and cannot do with their ip , chapterhouse should have read it, and if you do read it you realise they are very leniant, as long as you don't make money orsay its official, they don't mind.

Third people moaning they don't do enough. Now some people say gw needs to do more stuff and take more risks, but at the end of the day i'd rather gw are a stable company who don't take risks, it's nice how calm they are because we never have to worry about our local gw closing or being taken out of some store, they're doing fine now and i hope they keep it up.

I'll end this rant by saying

Put yourself in gw's shoes before you moan at them, and if you still have a problem with them, don't buy their stuff.

Well thats my veiw what does everybody else think?

So let me get this right...

You have a straight up yes or no poll about GW?

It's not as simple as yes or no.

As for your opinion, you pretty much have it that GW can do no wrong, and that there isn't an issue on the table as to how they treat thier consumers, general business practice, and that even though they have improved in some areas over the years, they have craptasticly failed in some of the most basic of others in as much time.

Instead of throwing down a blanket gauntlet over something as basic an issue, why not be a little more constructive in this sort of a conversation.

For one, your post, and pedestrian poll come off as adversarial, you don't even have a clue as to what the bottom line issue is that people have. Its basicly, "So, you don't like GW! You don't have any reason, so just suck it!"

"Here what people moan about most.

Price rises. Listen people, in the uk the vat goes up somtimes and gw are forced to put up prices, just like clothes shops, eletrical shops and most other shops. Ocasionly they put up prices without being forced and i don't know why, but it's a buisness and desighned to make money.

Secondly people are now moaning abouth cahpterhouse. On the gw website you can get a list of thing you can and cannot do with their ip , chapterhouse should have read it, and if you do read it you realise they are very leniant, as long as you don't make money orsay its official, they don't mind.

Third people moaning they don't do enough. Now some people say gw needs to do more stuff and take more risks, but at the end of the day i'd rather gw are a stable company who don't take risks, it's nice how calm they are because we never have to worry about our local gw closing or being taken out of some store, they're doing fine now and i hope they keep it up."


These generalized statements are incorrect. Your opinions are pretty generalized in the fact that your just jumping on the fanboy bandwagon, and not really addressing these peoples issues. Price. GW's actions in response to third party off market bits, and Thier Stores general practices are three very different, and braod strokes that you pretty much sum up as, "Well they can do what they want, charge what they want, treat people any way they want, and you as a paying consumer don't really have a thing to say about it because they are the dogs!"

If you've been around Dakka for ANY amount oif time, you have to know that your pretty much out of line, and instead of just telling people that they are a bunch of hacks because they don't go with the lemming flow, you might go one better and come up with an actual conversation, and try a little to have an actual conversation.

"Did you come up with something as awsome as 40k ?, and if they are that annoying, why don't you just buy from someone else?"
Oh, you have no idea....

One word there, junior....

Cthulhu.

moonshine wrote:Before anybody says gw shouldn't sue people fur using their ip, ask yourself, would you let someone get away with making money off you're idea and not give you any money for it ?

Sadly I would have to as ideas are not protected by IP law.

If you think they should be, a good place to start suing would be GW, who have "taken inspiration" from a range of in copyright SF and fantasy sources for the creation of their apparently, unique, worthy of defence, IP.

I have to be honest, I started with GW, I'll probably end with GW the time and money I've invested is just to great for me to ever leave over poor management etc. but I never even knew about any of this stuff till I got on Dakka, how did ya'll learn about the suings, shutdowns, IP fights, all these quotes from GW employees, firings etc. I'd like to read more about them.

Careful of asking the Interwebs for such things. What you'll see is a few facts, ruined by interpretation, bias and opinion, to the point where it's best to just ignore them.

Grot6: I'm not saying they can't do anything wrong, some things they do annoyme (e.i) the storm raven rules and when tney randomly increase prices but the last time their prices went up (a few weeks ago) it was only by a few pence (but if it has gone up in other places by more in other place, sorry, I was didn't know that)

moonshine wrote:Grot6: I'm not saying they can't do anything wrong, some things they do annoyme (e.i) the storm raven rules and when tney randomly increase prices but the last time their prices went up (a few weeks ago) it was only by a few pence (but if it has gone up in other places by more in other place, sorry, I was didn't know that)

That price rise was due to the VAT, which has gone up for the first time in 20 years and is one of the only price increases imposed upon them. Their typical price rises are those made by choice and often as much as several pounds on medium sized items.

Sometime around April-June is their price increase time. A box of Marines is currently £23 on their website, well it wouldn't surprise me at all if they go up to £25. I can assure you that Space Marine commanders will not stay at £13.80, they'll seek to round up the price to maybe £15.

I agree with you there, hopefully (even though it's unlikly) the prices will stay the same or if they do increase prices again it will just round the price up (e.i) kommmandos are £22.50 now (if i recall corectly) hopefully the will go up to £23 if they increase prices

£25 for 10 plastic figures is starting to sound expensive.

But I suppose Devastator squads are already £4 per figure, although of course you get enough spare parts to equip a bunch of normal SMs as Devastators too.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

moonshine wrote:Grot6: I'm not saying they can't do anything wrong, some things they do annoyme (e.i) the storm raven rules and when tney randomly increase prices but the last time their prices went up (a few weeks ago) it was only by a few pence (but if it has gone up in other places by more in other place, sorry, I was didn't know that)

That price rise was due to the VAT, which has gone up for the first time in 20 years and is one of the only price increases imposed upon them. Their typical price rises are those made by choice and often as much as several pounds on medium sized items.

Not in its entirety - the increase in VAT was rounded up, meaning a few extra pence in GW's pocket - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/339454.page#2323202

If I was going to be overly pedantic, it was the first increase in VAT for 1 year: it rose from 15% to 17.5% on 1st January 2010

If you work out the cost of each figure in a box of plastic figure it's not that bad. Ork boyz are £1.36 and there are lots of options in that box marines £2.25 each. imo that doesn't sound too bad.

moonshine wrote:If you work out the cost of each figure in a box of plastic figure it's not that bad. Ork boyz are £1.36 and there are lots of options in that box marines £2.25 each. imo that doesn't sound too bad.

Compared to what though? I think £2.25 for a single plastic figure is quite a bit actually, especially in light of other manufacturers and historical pricing. But then again I've seen the price on these plastics more than double in ten years. Ten years might seem a long time but the only other thing I can think of that has doubled in that time is petrol. Imperial Guard figures have increased so much that they've halved the contents of the box to keep them under £20. Catachans were 20 for £10 or £12 when they first came out, now they are 10 for £15.

I'm going to hazard a guess that you're fairly young or not been in the hobby long enough to see the full scope of the way they have changed over the years.

yes but even though it is £2.25 for a single model that isn't including the options you get with it

moonshine wrote:yes but even though it is £2.25 for a single model that isn't including the options you get with it

That's true, however you can't use all the options, so in some sense you are paying for a lot of extra bits you don't need, which wastes a lot of plastic.

There probably is a market for the simple, snap-fit models like the AoBR SMs and the five-in-a-box Termagants.

If the models are going to be more complicated and customisable, it would be nice to have them designed for better flexibility in customisation. Tau Fire Warriors, for instance, have the right arm and weapons moulded in a single piece. This makes it much harder to pose them differently to the standard poses GW chose.

Even though you get lots of peices you don't need they can normally be used on somthing else, I don't think I've ever looked in my bits box and seen somthing that I would call useless

I don't think a handful of parts for the bits box justifies the cost. I mainly look at the number of models that can be made from the box, anything else is a mere bonus and shouldn't cost a significant amount at all.

To this day I find it amazing that such a massive company still has tremendous imbalances in their game's core system. The fact that they haven't updated the necrons in so long is ridiculous. They fact that there's a space marine chapter worse than the others (dark angels) is ridiculous. Such simple things shouldn't be so and they are. YES we all love their models and fluff, but people forget that sculpts are often made by people who aren't directly from GW. I think as a company GW is slowed. They don't advertise to try and get new people, they simply rely on word of mouth. I played Dawn of War for like 3 years before I even knew about a table top version (amazing right)...In addition they're constantly raising prices on everything, including codexes, despite the fact that their cost of production doesn't rise for those. I could easily like GW provided they didn't do such stupid gak.

GW have to pay for sculpting and moulding the spare parts, so they can't for free.

However, it might be better to do a core model set with the basic selection of weapons, and separate weapon options as additional sprues bought separately.

This would allow people to avoid paying for all the extra bits they don't need. In other words, only the people wanting specific parts would have to pay for them.

As an example, the main Termagants box contains three different weapon options. You only ever use one of them, as you can't equip a unit of Termagants with a variety of weapons. So the other two sets are completely wasted. A lot of players probably decide what to put on their Gants before they even buy them. Wouldn't it be better to sell a body sprue and separate weapon sprues?

Perhaps this would cause too many stock control problems for GW.

It probably would, if you just got the bodies you would need to buy lots of upgrade packs and for smaller stores, you just can't fit it all in. Plus it would be a pain to buy all of the parts you need

Howard A Treesong wrote:

moonshine wrote:If you work out the cost of each figure in a box of plastic figure it's not that bad. Ork boyz are £1.36 and there are lots of options in that box marines £2.25 each. imo that doesn't sound too bad.

Compared to what though? I think £2.25 for a single plastic figure is quite a bit actually, especially in light of other manufacturers and historical pricing. But then again I've seen the price on these plastics more than double in ten years. Ten years might seem a long time but the only other thing I can think of that has doubled in that time is petrol. Imperial Guard figures have increased so much that they've halved the contents of the box to keep them under £20. Catachans were 20 for £10 or £12 when they first came out, now they are 10 for £15.

I've never understood the constant need to compare GW's prices to historical pricing structures.

Historical prices are a terrible yardstick for this. The historical market is oversaturated with companies making the same items. If I were to look for 28mm Agincourt models, I could probably find 10+ manufacturers. Some eras, true enough, are underrepresented, but for the main case...there's a ton of companies competing for the same customer base. Ultimately, you'll have people either buying the cheapest, the most accessible, or the ones that they feel look the best.

If you want to compare GW's prices to anyone, I'd suggest Privateer Press, Infinity, etc. Companies that produce their models in house and the models are distinctly "theirs", in terms of imagery and design styles.

There is much truth in that.

GW price high because they are the only company supplying Warhammer models.

You can play Warhammer/40K with other companies' models if you want, but most people want to use the official models, partly because the "heroic" scale makes them incompatible with other ranges. Thus, GW are in some sense a monopoly supplier, and can set prices accordingly.

My point is more about optimising the use of plastic, and the availability of models people want, and reducing waste.

Considering how much stuff you have to order on line nowadays even if you go to the GW shop, I don't think stocking multiple sprues in store should be a major issue. The main issue would be the amount of redesign of sprues and moulds needed.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

moonshine wrote:If you work out the cost of each figure in a box of plastic figure it's not that bad. Ork boyz are £1.36 and there are lots of options in that box marines £2.25 each. imo that doesn't sound too bad.

Compared to what though? I think £2.25 for a single plastic figure is quite a bit actually, especially in light of other manufacturers and historical pricing. But then again I've seen the price on these plastics more than double in ten years. Ten years might seem a long time but the only other thing I can think of that has doubled in that time is petrol. Imperial Guard figures have increased so much that they've halved the contents of the box to keep them under £20. Catachans were 20 for £10 or £12 when they first came out, now they are 10 for £15.

I'm going to hazard a guess that you're fairly young or not been in the hobby long enough to see the full scope of the way they have changed over the years.

The cost of things has changed dramaticly, Back in the 1940's 12 shilings was quite alot of money and in 1910 farmers would only make a few pound a year, in the 1960's 200 pound a year was decent (i think it was 1960's, it might have been the 50's or 40's) the point is over time the cost of things rises dramaticaly

GW is an amazing model company out of their depth trying to make games. No other problems with them, but that's a pretty big one.

Kanluwen wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

moonshine wrote:If you work out the cost of each figure in a box of plastic figure it's not that bad. Ork boyz are £1.36 and there are lots of options in that box marines £2.25 each. imo that doesn't sound too bad.

Compared to what though? I think £2.25 for a single plastic figure is quite a bit actually, especially in light of other manufacturers and historical pricing. But then again I've seen the price on these plastics more than double in ten years. Ten years might seem a long time but the only other thing I can think of that has doubled in that time is petrol. Imperial Guard figures have increased so much that they've halved the contents of the box to keep them under £20. Catachans were 20 for £10 or £12 when they first came out, now they are 10 for £15.

I've never understood the constant need to compare GW's prices to historical pricing structures.

I wasn't very clear in that post. I meant historical as in their pricing strategy history rather than comparing to the prices on historical miniature firms. I get that argument, in fact while I didn't mention it that is somewhat the driver behind GW prices, they use their ownership of unique things like Space Marines and their overall marketplace dominance to price gouge, for what's it's worth. That is to be expected, where you have a monopoly on something, which is what you have on your own IP, then you control all the supply to meet the demand. I just happen to think GW take the p---.

Obviously you can use other miniatures, but GW also try to create a negative environment adverse to using other manufacturer's miniatures with their games. Indeed, they often like to pretend that other manufacturers don't even exist from my experience.

moonshine wrote:The cost of things has changed dramaticly, Back in the 1940's 12 shilings was quite alot of money and in 1910 farmers would only make a few pound a year, in the 1960's 200 pound a year was decent (i think it was 1960's, it might have been the 50's or 40's) the point is over time the cost of things rises dramaticaly

I think the point *you* are missing is that things can rise in price both in relative or real terms. Obviously models will go up in price with inflation and materials costs. But GW raise prices far above inflation or other measures, meaning that their models are far more expensive in real terms than they have been. IG plastics have doubled in price, there's no way that £1.50 today is worth the same as 50p barely ten years ago but that's how much Catachans have increased by. To ignore this obvious point is somewhat disingenuous given your defence of GW.

moonshine wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

moonshine wrote:If you work out the cost of each figure in a box of plastic figure it's not that bad. Ork boyz are £1.36 and there are lots of options in that box marines £2.25 each. imo that doesn't sound too bad.

Compared to what though? I think £2.25 for a single plastic figure is quite a bit actually, especially in light of other manufacturers and historical pricing. But then again I've seen the price on these plastics more than double in ten years. Ten years might seem a long time but the only other thing I can think of that has doubled in that time is petrol. Imperial Guard figures have increased so much that they've halved the contents of the box to keep them under £20. Catachans were 20 for £10 or £12 when they first came out, now they are 10 for £15.

I'm going to hazard a guess that you're fairly young or not been in the hobby long enough to see the full scope of the way they have changed over the years.

The cost of things has changed dramaticly, Back in the 1940's 12 shilings was quite alot of money and in 1910 farmers would only make a few pound a year, in the 1960's 200 pound a year was decent (i think it was 1960's, it might have been the 50's or 40's) the point is over time the cost of things rises dramaticaly

LOL Your generalization is way off the mark. We're not talking about decades here, these price increases are in response to self inflicted wounds... in the space of a couple of months.

The point being that you are paying almost 20 bucks for 10 guys when the price was almost 20 bucks for 20 guys, heck, almost 1 year ago.

Seriously, dude, prices don't change that much in the real world, except with GW and thier magical bogus excuse wheel of increasing price fixing. I've watched as they even rose within months of each other, yet the product quality, quantity, and production costs shrunk. What Treesong's speaking about is the absolute truth in the matter And to add to his point, the prices in all of the products have risen to the point where people are well past the point of throwing the BS flag.

of course we still buy them, but do we buy them in as much quantity as we did? Heck no.

Along with the spastic power plays behind the scenes, such as when they shafted almost half of thier staff, and we get the offense that is now called WD, they do themselves the disservice here. And add another fact that we are talking about PLASTICS, as opposed to METALS, you probibly wouldn't believe me when I tell you that a Metal Dred, vehicle, or even figures actually were CHEAPER, then the plastics of now.

This was along with GW's famous tagline that they were increasing the price to pay for the mould injection equipment that they claimed that they were improving....

AND... The excuse that the company needed to "Streamline" THE PRICING, and FINALLY, the excuse of the VAT.

Excuses are just that, excuses, because at the end of the day, GW is still making a product for pennies ( or pence), and selling it for dollars (or pounds).

Of course, it's only instant profit when you throw in a couple of more store closings, to seal the deal. Wait till you see thier next crazy scheme when these one and two guy shops start falling on thier swords, Store closings, on a smaller scale, where we don't have to worry about letting five or ten dudes go, but chopping off heads only one or two at a time. LMAO!!!! most chain stores don't even think to add failure into the marketing scheme, GW has taken it and used it as a SALES tool. If it wasn't real, and meant feeding someons family, or paying someons bills, it would be craptasticly hilarious

And do you want to talk about Terminators?!?! Metal price 50 bucks for 5, Plastic price for 5, now 50 bucks. Hardly the great depression, is it?

The point that you actually want to defend that absolutly amazes me, and honestly when you continue with it, it doesn't suprise me that the company is closing stores just to make a profit and suing everyone with excuses from everything from the change in the weather, to my cat dying to increase the price. The conversation just gives one pause to actually think about thier F-ups, and how they are almost to the point of criminal in some of thier practices in the name of profit.

It isn't right, no matter how you want to sophise it.

moonshine wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

moonshine wrote:If you work out the cost of each figure in a box of plastic figure it's not that bad. Ork boyz are £1.36 and there are lots of options in that box marines £2.25 each. imo that doesn't sound too bad.

Compared to what though? I think £2.25 for a single plastic figure is quite a bit actually, especially in light of other manufacturers and historical pricing. But then again I've seen the price on these plastics more than double in ten years. Ten years might seem a long time but the only other thing I can think of that has doubled in that time is petrol. Imperial Guard figures have increased so much that they've halved the contents of the box to keep them under £20. Catachans were 20 for £10 or £12 when they first came out, now they are 10 for £15.

I'm going to hazard a guess that you're fairly young or not been in the hobby long enough to see the full scope of the way they have changed over the years.

The cost of things has changed dramaticly, Back in the 1940's 12 shilings was quite alot of money and in 1910 farmers would only make a few pound a year, in the 1960's 200 pound a year was decent (i think it was 1960's, it might have been the 50's or 40's) the point is over time the cost of things rises dramaticaly

Just to add to this - quoting cost of living and wage examples from the 40's, 50's and 60's is a complete waste of time and adds nothing to the debate since the UK underwent decimalisation in 1971. You might as well be talking about a different currency altogether...

Grot 6: the cost of an injection mould is very high, the chaepest will go for £4,000 but a good quality mould can go for much higher, now they need to buy a diffrent mould for every kit they make and will need to buy a new one every time one brakes down, plastic isn't the chaepest material either, so each model costs a fair bit to make, packadge and ship out.

Well, I voted "no". I don't hate GW though. I like the Eldar and paint them from time to time but thats about it. I don't play (yet) 40k and Im in no hurry. Im always hearing how bad the actual game is anyway.

Love or hate GW. They have serious issues with keeping things up to date. After 20+ years they should know what they're doing. The fan base obviously thinks they dont.

Don't confused 40k's popularity with quality. The models are typically excellent, the fluff is decent for the most part, but the actual game is unimpressive and simplistic.

I like the game. I personally don't think I'd care for Warmachine based off of descriptions, but if you think you can convince me, please try.

I marked no but that doesn't mean that I actively dislike GW. They're a business selling a product and I'm a consumer who at one point was interested in buying it. My opinion might turn to active dislike if I was an FLGS owner.

The major themes of what people like about GW and also what people don't like about GW have already been hit in this thread. I will add the fact that GW maintains ridiculously tightfisted restrictions regarding retailers and online sales is one thing that I haven't seen brought up that particularly irks me.

As for me personally, GW has priced me out of their niche of the hobby. I've been playing since 2nd edition and while I won't bore anyone with the details, the increases in prices have reached a point that is more than I can stomach. They've reached a price point where I can't justify buying their stuff anymore, which is fine by me, I don't begrudge GW trying to make a buck. If other people want to continue to buy their stuff, I say good for both GW and the consumer.

Someone upthread mentioned that the cost of a movie and snacks is ridiculous for the amount of leisure time that you get from it. I agree wholeheartedly but when examining opportunity cost you're supposed to look at your next best opportunity, not your worst one. For me, the next best opportunity happened to be video games and historical wargaming, two modes of entertainment that have happened to be both much cheaper and provide just as much entertainment (in both quantity and quality) that GW's products did for me. If you think 40k is the bee's knees and it's honestly the best place you can park your recreational dollars then by all means, continue to play it and enjoy it!

Personally I can't wait for PP or another company to actually start to threaten GW's market share in a significant way, they might actually lower prices to the point where I'd consider jumping back into the hobby again!

I like gw it's just they like my money more