The fluff says that they have eaten many galaxies before and that we're just another one on the list. Do you think that our galaxy has put up the best fight so far? And do you think that we are the most diverse galaxy they have come across? Or do you think we're just another yummy morsel for the hive fleet?

Perhaps, but who knows? After all, we're not told anything about the other galaxies they've been to.

I really cant guess as to what mightve been in those other galaxies there just to much that can be left to the imagination. Personally im of the belief that the Tryanids are a sentient weapon left by the old ones as a last ditch "feth you" towards the Ctan, I.e by eating up all of existence and producing loads of soulless lil bugs they deny the Ctan there "soul harvest", Although to be honest I dont get how / why the Ctan harvest life perhaps they use it as an energy source ?. But back on topic I wouldnt be to surprised if the "hive mind" is one of the few remaining old ones, and its trying to eat up humanity because theyve been touched by Ctan corruption what with the pariah gene.

OR potentially the hivemind is eating up everything to safeguard all of creation from an unforeseen threat which is EVEN greater then anything weve seen, a failsafe left by the old ones as it where.

Excuse the hyperboles but when it comes to the Hivemind I get quite excited .

CommissarCandlestick wrote:Perhaps, but who knows? After all, we're not told anything about the other galaxies they've been to.

Seconded.

The other galaxies possibilities are as limitless as the imagination. Though on the logical approach, maybe looking at their various features could give hints as to what they have devoured before.

What made fethin carnifexs then?! *imagination runs wild*

I think each galaxy is extremely different from other galaxies, so Tyranids have to re-adapt every time they enter another galaxy.

Maybe the Tyranids were able to take down other galaxies with less effort,since the Impirium is probably the largest organised defence they had to face.

ChronoCupcake wrote:I really cant guess as to what mightve been in those other galaxies there just to much that can be left to the imagination. Personally im of the belief that the Tryanids are a sentient weapon left by the old ones as a last ditch "feth you" towards the Ctan, I.e by eating up all of existence and producing loads of soulless lil bugs they deny the Ctan there "soul harvest", Although to be honest I dont get how / why the Ctan harvest life perhaps they use it as an energy source ?. But back on topic I wouldnt be to surprised if the "hive mind" is one of the few remaining old ones, and its trying to eat up humanity because theyve been touched by Ctan corruption what with the pariah gene.

OR potentially the hivemind is eating up everything to safeguard all of creation from an unforeseen threat which is EVEN greater then anything weve seen, a failsafe left by the old ones as it where.

Excuse the hyperboles but when it comes to the Hive-mind I get quite excited .

technically we don't know if nids have no soul, remember they are still animals without the synapse creature they become animals -instinctive behaviour, who says they have no soul -

also necrons and nids are very much the same if you think about it, they both eat planets energy and lifeforce of others, they both expand and conquer all planets for their leaders - there was an idea that the nids are actually a creation of a c'tan who went insane and made them so he can eat planets and souls without leaving his main home-

also there was a picture (lost it) where a whole hive fleet simply ignored 1 world (looked like a deathstar) in my eyes that was a necron world and nids simply dont care for them - if the nids were a creation of the old ones wouldn't they attack necrons at first sight

DA's Forever wrote:What made fethin carnifexs then?! *imagination runs wild*

It is very likely that the tyranid creatures have evolved to the point they look nothing like the original creature. Just an idea I had haha.

That's true - consider that in 3rd/4th edition Zoanthropes came from Eldar biomass, Biovores from Ork biomass, and Tyrant Guard from Space Marine biomass, they take traits they want, but it doesn't end up looking anything like the original life form.

I would say based on the evidence seen so far the other galaxies couldn't have put up nearly as much resistence as the races occupying the milky way are. Reason the hive mind is supposedly an all remembering entity that memorizes past foes and strategies. The initial tactics that the Imperium used at Macragge completely caught them of guard, relatively simple hit and run tactics allowed the tau to defeat a hive fleet (a small one but still a hive fleet nonetheless) and the orks of octarius have been holding the tyranids at bay in an indefinite stalemate. This suggests that the hive fleets opposition to this point has been either:
A) signifigantly less numerous
B) far less intelligent and advanced
C) scattered, isolated or otherwise unable to unite against the common threat they faced.

I'd say its probably a combination of all these things. I would say that they have never faced a race as numerous, tenacious, indomitable and warlike as the orks and have never faced an organization or empire as vast and cohesive as the imperium. The very fact that the hive fleet is learning and adapting to relatively simple stratagies suggest that it is highly unlikely any other galaxy has put up signifigant resistance until now.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

DA's Forever wrote:What made fethin carnifexs then?! *imagination runs wild*

It is very likely that the tyranid creatures have evolved to the point they look nothing like the original creature. Just an idea I had haha.

I actually thought it was a general need for a destructive battering ram to blast through structures. This would likely leave room for the theory that races which Tyranids have conquered prior to visiting the Milky Way, had structures which were strong, and were impenatrable to standard Tyranid infantry. This represents the S9, given to carnifexes.

Each other organism can be evaluated in a similar manner, I.E. Gargoyles, on planets whose cities could've been similar to Bespin from Star Wars (who knows, the 'Nids could've eaten the Star Wars galaxy by now), would be deployed where standard gaunts could on be only used in very limited numbers.

In this way, almost any organism from the Tyranid Codex can be given background, allowing for a Hive Fleet/Swarm to be given personality.

Lord Solar Awesome wrote:The fluff says that they have eaten many galaxies before and that we're just another one on the list. Do you think that our galaxy has put up the best fight so far? And do you think that we are the most diverse galaxy they have come across? Or do you think we're just another yummy morsel for the hive fleet?

You have to remember that the Tyranids' own codex contains little more than a long string of "And Hive Fleet X was obliterated at great cost to a fleet comprised of [proceeds to list only the smallest and most token fragment of the respective races forces]." A single space marine chapter brought down one, with mild casualties. Then went and brought down the most destructive fleet to have yet appeared, with only minor reinforcements. A small Eldar expedition hunted down and destroyed a hive fleet that was outside of Imperial space. A single craftworld managed to weather a hivefleet relatively unscathed. A ramshackle flotilla comprised of conscripted merchant freighters led by a handful of warships from two Imperial worlds destroyed yet another, with a good fragment of the flotilla coming through intact. Even the Tau, with their inconsequentially small military, have managed to take out splinter fleets. Only the smallest fragments of the Imperium suffer from the Tyranids, and in doing so they obliterate entire Hive Fleets in return.

Since the Tyranids practically define "failure," even more than Abaddon does, I have a very hard time believing that they've consumed more than their home galaxy (if even that, they could well have left it with their tails between their legs if there was anything able to so much as raise a gun sharing it with them), unless there's been nothing more dangerous than some particularly fierce rabbits inhabiting those galaxies.

^ You forgot the time that a fleet of ork ships wiped one out
Pwned by ork ships?? How disgraceful, nids!

The Tyranids define evolutionary concepts. They evolve in order to face and overcome whatever obstacle their targets throw at them. With that fact as a starting point, it seems clear that this galaxy is tougher than others encountered, because Tyranid evolution is not yet up to the task of destroying it, whereas they WERE able to devour whoever came before. So I'd say they developed to the point where they were able to gobble previous galaxies, but are still perfecting the evolution needed to swallow the Milky Way.

Tyranids also might "throw" some battles to gather intelligence on what weaknesses the enemy acts upon first, what tactics and weapons they use..... I have no fluff proof of this just another idea. Also what I would do if I was the hive mind

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Tyranids also might "throw" some battles to gather intelligence on what weaknesses the enemy acts upon first, what tactics and weapons they use..... I have no fluff proof of this just another idea. Also what I would do if I was the hive mind

You can see this indirectly in how they throw waves at the enemy. Each wave learns from the latter and they adjust their tactics accordingly.

Bjorn_Stormwolf02 wrote:I would say based on the evidence seen so far the other galaxies couldn't have put up nearly as much resistence as the races occupying the milky way are. Reason the hive mind is supposedly an all remembering entity that memorizes past foes and strategies. The initial tactics that the Imperium used at Macragge completely caught them of guard, relatively simple hit and run tactics allowed the tau to defeat a hive fleet (a small one but still a hive fleet nonetheless) and the orks of octarius have been holding the tyranids at bay in an indefinite stalemate. This suggests that the hive fleets opposition to this point has been either:
A) signifigantly less numerous
B) far less intelligent and advanced
C) scattered, isolated or otherwise unable to unite against the common threat they faced.

However, also consider that the Tyranids had no idea what the inhabitants of this galaxy were like militarily. Behemoth made one big thrust into the galaxy - a simple tactic, which let them see what tactics would be employed against them. Doing one major push let them more easily see how races would respond to an attack, and then the following hive fleets could change initial tactics accordingly.

-Loki- wrote:

Bjorn_Stormwolf02 wrote:I would say based on the evidence seen so far the other galaxies couldn't have put up nearly as much resistence as the races occupying the milky way are. Reason the hive mind is supposedly an all remembering entity that memorizes past foes and strategies. The initial tactics that the Imperium used at Macragge completely caught them of guard, relatively simple hit and run tactics allowed the tau to defeat a hive fleet (a small one but still a hive fleet nonetheless) and the orks of octarius have been holding the tyranids at bay in an indefinite stalemate. This suggests that the hive fleets opposition to this point has been either:
A) signifigantly less numerous
B) far less intelligent and advanced
C) scattered, isolated or otherwise unable to unite against the common threat they faced.

However, also consider that the Tyranids had no idea what the inhabitants of this galaxy were like militarily. Behemoth made one big thrust into the galaxy - a simple tactic, which let them see what tactics would be employed against them. Doing one major push let them more easily see how races would respond to an attack, and then the following hive fleets could change initial tactics accordingly.

imo all 3 current major hive fleets are just testing the races of the galaxy and gathering intelligence, at least that seems to be what is implied. What makes or breaks the Tyranid threat is how the mother fleet does, though I doubt GW will ever get there.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Lord Solar Awesome wrote:The fluff says that they have eaten many galaxies before and that we're just another one on the list. Do you think that our galaxy has put up the best fight so far? And do you think that we are the most diverse galaxy they have come across? Or do you think we're just another yummy morsel for the hive fleet?

You have to remember that the Tyranids' own codex contains little more than a long string of "And Hive Fleet X was obliterated at great cost to a fleet comprised of [proceeds to list only the smallest and most token fragment of the respective races forces]." A single space marine chapter brought down one, with mild casualties. Then went and brought down the most destructive fleet to have yet appeared, with only minor reinforcements. A small Eldar expedition hunted down and destroyed a hive fleet that was outside of Imperial space. A single craftworld managed to weather a hivefleet relatively unscathed. A ramshackle flotilla comprised of conscripted merchant freighters led by a handful of warships from two Imperial worlds destroyed yet another, with a good fragment of the flotilla coming through intact. Even the Tau, with their inconsequentially small military, have managed to take out splinter fleets. Only the smallest fragments of the Imperium suffer from the Tyranids, and in doing so they obliterate entire Hive Fleets in return.

Since the Tyranids practically define "failure," even more than Abaddon does, I have a very hard time believing that they've consumed more than their home galaxy (if even that, they could well have left it with their tails between their legs if there was anything able to so much as raise a gun sharing it with them), unless there's been nothing more dangerous than some particularly fierce rabbits inhabiting those galaxies.

Oh my god that was awesome


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yevix wrote:

ChronoCupcake wrote:I really cant guess as to what mightve been in those other galaxies there just to much that can be left to the imagination. Personally im of the belief that the Tryanids are a sentient weapon left by the old ones as a last ditch "feth you" towards the Ctan, I.e by eating up all of existence and producing loads of soulless lil bugs they deny the Ctan there "soul harvest", Although to be honest I dont get how / why the Ctan harvest life perhaps they use it as an energy source ?. But back on topic I wouldnt be to surprised if the "hive mind" is one of the few remaining old ones, and its trying to eat up humanity because theyve been touched by Ctan corruption what with the pariah gene.

OR potentially the hivemind is eating up everything to safeguard all of creation from an unforeseen threat which is EVEN greater then anything weve seen, a failsafe left by the old ones as it where.

Excuse the hyperboles but when it comes to the Hive-mind I get quite excited .

technically we don't know if nids have no soul, remember they are still animals without the synapse creature they become animals -instinctive behaviour, who says they have no soul -

also necrons and nids are very much the same if you think about it, they both eat planets energy and lifeforce of others, they both expand and conquer all planets for their leaders - there was an idea that the nids are actually a creation of a c'tan who went insane and made them so he can eat planets and souls without leaving his main home-

also there was a picture (lost it) where a whole hive fleet simply ignored 1 world (looked like a deathstar) in my eyes that was a necron world and nids simply dont care for them - if the nids were a creation of the old ones wouldn't they attack necrons at first sight

Actually it does say that the Tryanids have no soul, and merely share a tiny fragment of the hive minds check the latest Tyranid dex, Tyranids and Necrons should team up imo Necrons eat souls Tyranids eat the bodies and planets they both win and we lose . Tyranids avoid Necrons because they cant digest Necrodermis properly something about it either expending more energy to digest then it provides or it just being utterly undigestable or something, Anyway's my point was that there a creation of the old ones to try a different strategy against the Ctan, think how the alpha legion was tasked with destroying humanity by siding with Horus so that the humanity would cave in and kill itself in 2 generations and effectively kill chaos as it no longer has any food, In a similar way if the Tyranids eat up everything and everyone the Necrons have nothing to harvest and simply shut off, and then they can be absorbed as well, regardless its just random speculation its not like I have anything concrete to back this up.

We won't know much about the threat of the Tyranids until Ordo Xenos gets their codex I believe. How much information could they possibly know; since its known they've fought tyranids quite alot of times.(Which will be the same edition likely, that a focus is expecially on Tyranids. Return of Genestealer Cults anyone?)

At the moment the imperium has encountered several 'tendrils'/hive fleets. whats going to happen when the origin (main fleet/cloud) of these tendrils reaches the imperium?
Thats going to be the end


Dan

Unless the Ordo Xenos is plotting something?

Hmmm... interesting lol, they may be

Dan

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:You have to remember that the Tyranids' own codex contains little more than a long string of "And Hive Fleet X was obliterated at great cost to a fleet comprised of [proceeds to list only the smallest and most token fragment of the respective races forces]."

Indeed - in the 5th edition codex anyway. Cruddace really seems to hate Tyranids with the fluff he retconned for 5th edition.

Also, lets put a few of these into perspective here.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:A single space marine chapter brought down one, with mild casualties. Then went and brought down the most destructive fleet to have yet appeared, with only minor reinforcements.

The Ultramarines lost their entire veteran company, nearly all of that equipment (including their Terminator armour), not to mention the Space Marines from other companies that defended the polar defenses. They lost a huge amount of the entire sectors Imperial Guard Auxillery forces, and a huge amount of the Ultima Segmentums fleet. Behemoth was beaten, but the Ultramarines, and the Ultima Segmentum as a whole, hardly suffered mild casualties. They still haven't recovered from them.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:A small Eldar expedition hunted down and destroyed a hive fleet that was outside of Imperial space. A single craftworld managed to weather a hivefleet relatively unscathed.

Iyanden was nearly destroyed before Deus Ex Yriel appeared. They lost a huge amount of their population - the reason they now have so many Wraithguard and Wraithlords.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Even the Tau, with their inconsequentially small military, have managed to take out splinter fleets. Only the smallest fragments of the Imperium suffer from the Tyranids, and in doing so they obliterate entire Hive Fleets in return.

The Tau defeated one splinter fleet, with an Imperial Crusade backing them up. An imperial crusade and a huge force of Tau beating a small splinter fleet - go team!

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Since the Tyranids practically define "failure," even more than Abaddon does, I have a very hard time believing that they've consumed more than their home galaxy

...... that is so fething awesome its going in my signature

-Loki- wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:A single space marine chapter brought down one, with mild casualties. Then went and brought down the most destructive fleet to have yet appeared, with only minor reinforcements.

The Ultramarines lost their entire veteran company, nearly all of that equipment (including their Terminator armour), not to mention the Space Marines from other companies that defended the polar defenses. They lost a huge amount of the entire sectors Imperial Guard Auxillery forces, and a huge amount of the Ultima Segmentums fleet. Behemoth was beaten, but the Ultramarines, and the Ultima Segmentum as a whole, hardly suffered mild casualties. They still haven't recovered from them.

Dont forget there were a decent number of titans playing around.

all kidding aside I do have to agree the hive fleets are just cannon fodder testing weaknesses until the big/original fleet hits, at that time I think humanity will be in a sorry(er)state, especially considering the Hive Mind is drawn to the astronomicon like a moth to fire, but then again the ultrasmurfs will be there, so I take that back, plot armor covered ultramarines will win the day

The Tyranids having no soul and being a big blanket of bugs is a recent thing. Back when they were introduced even their guns had some sort of sentience.

Making them a swarm of locusts was the dumbest thing GW has done with the Nids. They lost some spunk when they did that....I liked the idea of intelligent Nids ala Aliens....

Ultramarines really don't have plot armour against Tyranids if you look at what they really lost against them.

Sure, other chapters have been completely wiped out by them, but they didn't have an entire segmentum of Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy and Titan Legions backing them up like the Ultramarines did.

Not to mention that while Marneus Calgar managed to strangle a Avatar to death, he was just about killed by the Swarmlord, only saved by his Honour Guard. They may have plot armour, but it's pretty weak against the Nids.

-Loki- wrote:Ultramarines really don't have plot armour against Tyranids if you look at what they really lost against them.

Sure, other chapters have been completely wiped out by them, but they didn't have an entire segmentum of Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy and Titan Legions backing them up like the Ultramarines did.

Not to mention that while Marneus Calgar managed to strangle a Avatar to death, he was just about killed by the Swarmlord, only saved by his Honour Guard. They may have plot armour, but it's pretty weak against the Nids.

Plot armor saved 4th company from complete annihalation and allowed 4 marines to go deep into the heart of a hive ship and infect the queen, I have to say ill take plot armor over terminator armor any day

The smurfs are a single chapter out of one thousand. Space marines as a whole are outnumbered billions to one by the Guard, and many thousands to one by the Guard's main battle tanks. If I recall correctly, there are more Titans on Mars alone than there are Space Marines in all. That fewer than a thousand space marines managed to bring down a Hive Fleet, and then in their damaged state brought down a bigger one, says something about the Tyranids strength. Sure, there might be a deus ex machina to the tune of "oh, there are actually millions of fleets of the magical space locusts, lololololol I troll u," I don't see that as particularly likely, not least of which because I'm sure the authors of the fluff really just don't grasp the scale of what they're writing about, and so think the current Hive Fleet battles have been narrow, pyrrhic victories, instead of the minor skirmishes they amount to.

Yes, battles against the Tyranids tend to end badly for those doing the fighting, but at the same time, they amount to only the smallest, most insignificant fraction of the total forces arrayed against them. To put it in perspective, if the Imperium is the United States, the whole of the Tyranids' action so far is like a bear mauling a hunter in the middle of nowhere, and then getting its head blown off by his buddies. Yeah, it sucks for the guy that got torn to shreds by the bear, but he's an irrelevant fragment of the population as a whole, and the bear suffered just as bad (and there are fewer bears, after all).

Veldrain wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:A single space marine chapter brought down one, with mild casualties. Then went and brought down the most destructive fleet to have yet appeared, with only minor reinforcements.

The Ultramarines lost their entire veteran company, nearly all of that equipment (including their Terminator armour), not to mention the Space Marines from other companies that defended the polar defenses. They lost a huge amount of the entire sectors Imperial Guard Auxillery forces, and a huge amount of the Ultima Segmentums fleet. Behemoth was beaten, but the Ultramarines, and the Ultima Segmentum as a whole, hardly suffered mild casualties. They still haven't recovered from them.

Dont forget there were a decent number of titans playing around.

Also, being the first Imperial organisation that defeats a tyranid tendril, our brother chapter ultramarines suffered a lot yes, not known ones are, they get in a position that loosing 2/4 of their geneseed, though only after re-processed the holy relics of the Empror and Chapter, they again recovered their original amounts.

and when Captain Invictus, The Company's first copany ( The corinthian Crushade Veterans) Captain and all his experienced battle brothers, the veterans died in the First Tyrannic war, they adamged the Tendril Forces in unvaliable numbers, that even the hive tyrant itself screamed and teared the synapses of nids they say.

The veterans died on that day, still mourned by the brother chapter, and they never forgot the eternal sacrifice of the Invictus and his squad of honoured veterans. Because of their Last Stand against the foul xenos, because of that delay and unbelievable casualities the tendril gives, Marneus Calgar and Chapter gained victory in orbit.

Do not underestimate the mighty power of the Emperor. Because The Emperor Protects.

Adeo morti servus imperator fictu!! Ave dominus nox!

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Lord Solar Awesome wrote:The fluff says that they have eaten many galaxies before and that we're just another one on the list. Do you think that our galaxy has put up the best fight so far? And do you think that we are the most diverse galaxy they have come across? Or do you think we're just another yummy morsel for the hive fleet?

You have to remember that the Tyranids' own codex contains little more than a long string of "And Hive Fleet X was obliterated at great cost to a fleet comprised of [proceeds to list only the smallest and most token fragment of the respective races forces]." A single space marine chapter brought down one, with mild casualties. Then went and brought down the most destructive fleet to have yet appeared, with only minor reinforcements. A small Eldar expedition hunted down and destroyed a hive fleet that was outside of Imperial space. A single craftworld managed to weather a hivefleet relatively unscathed. A ramshackle flotilla comprised of conscripted merchant freighters led by a handful of warships from two Imperial worlds destroyed yet another, with a good fragment of the flotilla coming through intact. Even the Tau, with their inconsequentially small military, have managed to take out splinter fleets. Only the smallest fragments of the Imperium suffer from the Tyranids, and in doing so they obliterate entire Hive Fleets in return.

Since the Tyranids practically define "failure," even more than Abaddon does, I have a very hard time believing that they've consumed more than their home galaxy (if even that, they could well have left it with their tails between their legs if there was anything able to so much as raise a gun sharing it with them), unless there's been nothing more dangerous than some particularly fierce rabbits inhabiting those galaxies.

So, the next Tyranid codex should be the hive fleet conquering the galaxy and finnaly eating everyone? Yes, that is good for GW sales.
Same with black crusades, they finnaly overthrow the Imperium and they win. GW is always going to make this universe in a constant stalemate. It's a money thing, Thats like saying the Imperium sucks cuz chaos is still around and all the other races haven't bowed down to the Emperor......

xXSir MontyXx wrote:
GW is always going to make this universe in a constant stalemate. It's a money thing, Thats like saying the Imperium sucks cuz chaos is still around and all the other races haven't bowed down to the Emperor......

I call shenanigans on this logic, both races of eldar and the Tau arent really much of a competition to the other great powers in the galaxy(I expect flak from Eldar and tau fanboys)

Dark Eldar are less interested in power struggles than ensuring that there will always be a steady supply of fresh souls flowing into Comorragh. They aren't interested in the conquest of planets or empires; only the satisfaction of their own thirsts and desires.

Ultramarines and the oh so mighty 'tactical genius' of calgar.... such a joke.... Anyone who refuses to adapt their tactics because they are too mired in dogma in tradition deserves to be anhiliated. Unless the Imperium of man gets a serious wake up call soon they will be destroyed, tyranids or no. The need tofree themselves from their suspicious dogma and form a progressive society that is ready to adapt and move forward they are doomed to fail and be defeated by more progressive and adaptive races.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Lord Solar Awesome wrote:The fluff says that they have eaten many galaxies before and that we're just another one on the list. Do you think that our galaxy has put up the best fight so far? And do you think that we are the most diverse galaxy they have come across? Or do you think we're just another yummy morsel for the hive fleet?

You have to remember that the Tyranids' own codex contains little more than a long string of "And Hive Fleet X was obliterated at great cost to a fleet comprised of [proceeds to list only the smallest and most token fragment of the respective races forces]." A single space marine chapter brought down one, with mild casualties. Then went and brought down the most destructive fleet to have yet appeared, with only minor reinforcements. A small Eldar expedition hunted down and destroyed a hive fleet that was outside of Imperial space. A single craftworld managed to weather a hivefleet relatively unscathed. A ramshackle flotilla comprised of conscripted merchant freighters led by a handful of warships from two Imperial worlds destroyed yet another, with a good fragment of the flotilla coming through intact. Even the Tau, with their inconsequentially small military, have managed to take out splinter fleets. Only the smallest fragments of the Imperium suffer from the Tyranids, and in doing so they obliterate entire Hive Fleets in return.

Since the Tyranids practically define "failure," even more than Abaddon does, I have a very hard time believing that they've consumed more than their home galaxy (if even that, they could well have left it with their tails between their legs if there was anything able to so much as raise a gun sharing it with them), unless there's been nothing more dangerous than some particularly fierce rabbits inhabiting those galaxies.

So, the next Tyranid codex should be the hive fleet conquering the galaxy and finnaly eating everyone? Yes, that is good for GW sales.
Same with black crusades, they finnaly overthrow the Imperium and they win. GW is always going to make this universe in a constant stalemate. It's a money thing, Thats like saying the Imperium sucks cuz chaos is still around and all the other races haven't bowed down to the Emperor......

The thing I'm saying is it's not a stalemate: to the Imperium as a whole the Tyranids are as insignificant as a particularly vicious bear is to the United States. That goes for just about every dedicated "threat" to the Imperium: the whole of the surviving traitor legions, even if they could be gathered under one banner, couldn't take the Cadian gate; Orks aren't going anywhere anytime soon, but their whole power structure rests on a thread at the best of times, with the death of the warboss leading to the collapse of even the biggest Waaugh; the daemonic side of chaos is trapped in the warp, and most daemons would appear disinterested in entering the materium, if the daemon from Eisenhorn is any indication; the Tau are advanced, but so small as to be completely irrelevant; the Craftworld Eldar aren't interested in fighting the Imperium, since it often does their dirty work for them; the Dark Eldar aren't interested in fighting the Imperium because they have nothing to gain from it, and can just prey on isolated Imperial worlds, or manipulate Imperial forces into doing their dirty work for them; only the Necrons seem to pose a genuine threat, and even their tomb worlds can be blown away with cyclonic torpedoes.

Individual skirmishes might be brutal (and interesting), but in the overall scale of things, the Imperium dwarfs everything else, and can't be truly threatened by many things (so long as it continues fighting perceived threats, obviously; it is in a constant struggle, just one it easily wins in the grand scheme of things)

I get what you're saying, but it would be cool if you could come up with some quoted references. Because all of the references from the Imperiums side in the Tyranid codex state that while they've beaten back some fleets, they're still an extremely dangerous threat - a threat the galaxy will need to unite against. Which will never happen.

Aside from the ones that have just appeared, and haven't actually done anything yet, all the other fleets mentioned have been destroyed, and the description of the forces which destroyed them are of only the smallest and most insignificant fleets or armies. I would be willing to believe the author thought that those were actually large forces, and that the losses they suffered actually meant anything, but we must remember that Sci-fi Writers Have No Sense of Scale, and when one considers the rest of the Imperial fluff, even though it purports to describe a weak, thinly stretched state crippled by its own inertia and internal division, what it then goes on to describe doesn't match that. From this we can take all "oh noes society is crumbling the end is nigh!" doomsaying as just as valid as comparable real-world cries, which have been going on as long as there has been society to allegedly crumble, and are quite obviously not valid in the least.

It seems like the crux of this argument centres around the perceived scale of the 40k universe, something which you rightly point out is not well/easily represented in fiction.
The implied scale of the galaxy in this fictional universe, compared to the actual size required of the imperium to stake a claim in controlling the galaxy in a real sense is indeed larger than the fluff would indicate.

However this same sense of scale can also be applied to a species that has purportedly travelled the even greater distance between galaxies, being several orders of magnitude larger than the galaxy itself. Claiming that said splinter fleets are then somehow too small to represent a threat by discounting the possibilty of a larger wave of reinforcements behind it ignores the probably huge logistical nightmare that crossing intergalactic space must require. If the tyranids have indeed crossed this huge distance, using biotech rather than warp travel, the subsequent size of the fleet simply to provide the energy to sustain iteself precludes the idea that they could do so in such small numbers.

Therefore I consider it to be an unfair argument to dismiss the tyranids as a relatively weak force in the galaxy based on the misrepresented actual scale of the imperium, whilst ignoring the potentially misrepresented scale of the tyranid race as a whole.

The galaxy may get away with not having to unite against a 'large' tyranid invasion as the different races (tau & IoM are two i have in mind) would most likely form a 'temporary' alliance to hold back a large scale attack, then return to fighting each other.
As if we were to look at the fluff in a common sense frame of mind, the hive mind would attack from beneath the galactiv plane (not sure on terminology there) and head striaght towards Terra would it not? Thats assuming the hive mind is as strategically astute as we make out?

Dan

I think it mentions in the most recent 5e nid fluff that they are indeed attacking (or starting to) from below the galactic plane, but they haven't reached terra. Yet. * dun dun durrrrrrrrr*

-Loki- wrote:I get what you're saying, but it would be cool if you could come up with some quoted references. Because all of the references from the Imperiums side in the Tyranid codex state that while they've beaten back some fleets, they're still an extremely dangerous threat - a threat the galaxy will need to unite against. Which will never happen.

This is very true and I didn't even think about it.

Alder Garrick "I think we can be assured that the Norn Queens will continue to work tirelessly towards more and more perfectly adapted for killing the inhabitants of this galaxy just as they have in others before ours. Simply put, over the coming centuries we may be out-evolved to the point of extinction." Codex: Tyranids (4th Edition), page 5

Chaplain Cassius of the Ultramarines "We must scour them from the stars before they do the same to us." Codex: Tyranids (4th Edition), page 43

There is also another that says the current strength of the Imperium must be increased by a large percentage and ever man woman and child has to fight as well. I dont remember the specifics...... sorry im sure someone will post it up for me. ANYWAYS, it seems like the imperium is more worried about the Tyranids than you are.

Reanimator wrote:It seems like the crux of this argument centres around the perceived scale of the 40k universe, something which you rightly point out is not well/easily represented in fiction.
The implied scale of the galaxy in this fictional universe, compared to the actual size required of the imperium to stake a claim in controlling the galaxy in a real sense is indeed larger than the fluff would indicate.

However this same sense of scale can also be applied to a species that has purportedly travelled the even greater distance between galaxies, being several orders of magnitude larger than the galaxy itself. Claiming that said splinter fleets are then somehow too small to represent a threat by discounting the possibilty of a larger wave of reinforcements behind it ignores the probably huge logistical nightmare that crossing intergalactic space must require. If the tyranids have indeed crossed this huge distance, using biotech rather than warp travel, the subsequent size of the fleet simply to provide the energy to sustain iteself precludes the idea that they could do so in such small numbers.

Therefore I consider it to be an unfair argument to dismiss the tyranids as a relatively weak force in the galaxy based on the misrepresented actual scale of the imperium, whilst ignoring the potentially misrepresented scale of the tyranid race as a whole.

I'll concede the point that we don't know anything at all about the tyranids beyond those that have already entered the galaxy. They may have massive numbers, having consumed entire galaxies before, or they may be scattered refugees fleeing their home galaxy because whatever else inhabited it was too much for them to overcome. They may come in a massive tide, overwhelming the Imperium, or they may filter in piecemeal as they've been doing, being picked off by relatively small patrols. Genestealers and (some) deathworlds are tyranid in origin, meaning they've already been to the galaxy millenia before. For all we know they may be local xenos from the fringes of the galaxy, who've only now started to "bloom" (in the jellyfish or algal bloom sense) en masse.

Honestly though, I think it's safe to say that were the Tyranid invasion ever to theoretically come to a climax, the "gigantic force that's like, really big and stuff" that defeats it "but at such cost the Imperium will never ever recover because it's such a huge blow" will be something like a dozen space marine chapters, of which half are destroyed entirely. Maybe a few dozen regiments of guard, with a titan or two for good measure. And totally "like a few thousand ships or something big like that." You know it's (sadly) true...

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

-Loki- wrote:I get what you're saying, but it would be cool if you could come up with some quoted references. Because all of the references from the Imperiums side in the Tyranid codex state that while they've beaten back some fleets, they're still an extremely dangerous threat - a threat the galaxy will need to unite against. Which will never happen.

This is very true and I didn't even think about it.

Alder Garrick "I think we can be assured that the Norn Queens will continue to work tirelessly towards more and more perfectly adapted for killing the inhabitants of this galaxy just as they have in others before ours. Simply put, over the coming centuries we may be out-evolved to the point of extinction." Codex: Tyranids (4th Edition), page 5

Chaplain Cassius of the Ultramarines "We must scour them from the stars before they do the same to us." Codex: Tyranids (4th Edition), page 43

There is also another that says the current strength of the Imperium must be increased by a large percentage and ever man woman and child has to fight as well. I dont remember the specifics...... sorry im sure someone will post it up for me. ANYWAYS, it seems like the imperium is more worried about the Tyranids than you are.

That's precisely the kind of doomsaying I'm talking about. The fluff is as full of it as the real world has been for all of recorded history, and in neither case does it really hold water. Yes, there are all sorts of ominous quotes about the tyranids, and yes, the forces that get sent against them suffer greatly. It makes sense for those either facing them, or well informed about them, to be frightened of them. But in the end, the Imperium is incomprehensibly vast, with a massive, well equipped, generally competent and well trained military (when you don't have an author playing up the grimdark to narmtastic levels). Not to mention its favorite power armored freaks, and legions of titans.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Honestly though, I think it's safe to say that were the Tyranid invasion ever to theoretically come to a climax, the "gigantic force that's like, really big and stuff" that defeats it "but at such cost the Imperium will never ever recover because it's such a huge blow" will be something like a dozen space marine chapters, of which half are destroyed entirely. Maybe a few dozen regiments of guard, with a titan or two for good measure. And totally "like a few thousand ships or something big like that." You know it's (sadly) true...

We may have to agree to disagree on that one. Being more a nid fan than an imperium fan, I'm rooting for the space bugs. However it is in essence one unknown quantity vs another and its only going to be speculation is to who would actually win. Don't get me wrong, I like speculating, I'm sure its the point of threads like this, I just lament the point at which I have to concede the GW will never finish telling the story of the 40k universe so I can get some closure!

Of course the hobby would probably suffer as a result if they ever truly tried to end the conflict in a significant way (Lots of angry fanboys annoyed that their side didn't win).

Dont discount that, yes the imperium/mechanicus have titans, so do the tyranids.
I think the victor of the war would depend on the speed and location of the main tyranid invasion.

Dan

D.Smith wrote:Dont discount that, yes the imperium/mechanicus have titans, so do the tyranids.
I think the victor of the war would depend on the speed and location of the main tyranid invasion.

Dan

and also depends on the reaction time of the imperium..
But be sure, THe Emperor Protects...

Reanimator wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Honestly though, I think it's safe to say that were the Tyranid invasion ever to theoretically come to a climax, the "gigantic force that's like, really big and stuff" that defeats it "but at such cost the Imperium will never ever recover because it's such a huge blow" will be something like a dozen space marine chapters, of which half are destroyed entirely. Maybe a few dozen regiments of guard, with a titan or two for good measure. And totally "like a few thousand ships or something big like that." You know it's (sadly) true...

We may have to agree to disagree on that one. Being more a nid fan than an imperium fan, I'm rooting for the space bugs. However it is in essence one unknown quantity vs another and its only going to be speculation is to who would actually win. Don't get me wrong, I like speculating, I'm sure its the point of threads like this, I just lament the point at which I have to concede the GW will never finish telling the story of the 40k universe so I can get some closure!

Of course the hobby would probably suffer as a result if they ever truly tried to end the conflict in a significant way (Lots of angry fanboys annoyed that their side didn't win).

I was mocking the authors with the suggestion that they'd think that was a suitably large force for a climactic battle.

Ah, apologies, fair comment then. And yes, *sigh* thats probably true.

Yeah, I don't have as high of an opinion about the Hive Mind's ability to do tactics. Or evolve, for that matter. Orks alone are probably more deadly and destructive than anything Tyranids have ever faced before, nevermind adding in Tau, Eldar, Humans, or Necrons.

Melissia wrote:Yeah, I don't have as high of an opinion about the Hive Mind's ability to do tactics. Or evolve, for that matter. Orks alone are probably more deadly and destructive than anything Tyranids have ever faced before, nevermind adding in Tau, Eldar, Humans, or Necrons.

Do you not think that might be bit extreme considering they nearly cleaned the ultramarines off the face of the galaxy? I know 'nearly' is the key word.
But look at the other races in 40k, if you were to look at the 40k universe there are endless tactical decisions in the fluff that make us think the commanding people/creatures are thick.
And part of the genious of 40k is allowing us to pick our favourite race to put our money on for winning imo, i'll admit i love nids, and the fluff lets me justify having a beleif that in the fictional universe, they would win.
However if you like orks you can justify their point to win, each race has their own potential to wipe the others out since the fluff hasnt really 'progressed' a great deal.


Dan

D.Smith wrote:Do you not think that might be bit extreme considering they nearly cleaned the ultramarines off the face of the galaxy?

Only a smurf could make tyranids look like Creed.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

D.Smith wrote:Do you not think that might be bit extreme considering they nearly cleaned the ultramarines off the face of the galaxy?

Only a smurf could make tyranids look like Creed.

That's great!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sad day you have to click on the gif to make it work

I've always thought when I've been reading the Codex(es?) that the Tyranids are constantly coming in to the galaxy from other galaxys and that there's plenty more that just haven't arrived yet.

The Leviathan Fleet coming in from a completely different direction makes me think that the Tyranids are much more numerous than people have been guessing at and we've only seen a small percentage.

I also think that they are spread out so they'll never really be in completely overwhelming numbers

The first waves have been destroyed yes. But there's plenty more left to come, ensuring Nids will always be around to cause problems

At least until astronomican grows sufficently dim enough to stop attracting them. (Although now the Hive Mind knows there's food in that galaxy I don't know if that'll matter)

Plus the Hive Mind isn't stupid though. It's seen what the Milky Way is like. If it was a lost cause wouldn't they aim somewhere else?

D.Smith wrote:Do you not think that might be bit extreme considering they nearly cleaned the ultramarines off the face of the galaxy? I know 'nearly' is the key word.

No, just their first company. Ten to fifteen percent losses is pretty light for a major climactic battle.

D.Smith wrote:Dont discount that, yes the imperium/mechanicus have titans, so do the tyranids.
I think the victor of the war would depend on the speed and location of the main tyranid invasion.

Dan

Then the tyranids don't stand a chance. They are significantly slower than the imperium and are attacking the center of their power, Holy Terra itself.

I could imagine the Imperium being able to lose and rebuild entire fleets, legions of titans and the entirety of the space marine chapters in between tyranid waves.

I doubt the nids are the ultimate threat to the galaxy, orks slapp em all over and even the tau gave em a clip round ear lol. The IoM hold out against em fine and the eldar kill em when they can, with the power of every race in 40k (bar crons cuz there al asleep 90% of the time and the DE being utter cowards lol) they dont stand a chance.

I think the galaxy they left was were they were created or were the hive mind is and there was very little there to threaten them.

I do think the hive mind is like a planet sized thing that has become completly self sufficent and uses up so much of its power to control the hive that it is incapable of movment or (my fav idea) that nids are the ultimate bio weapon created to destry all life but who ever made em lost control died and now there off on there merry munching mission lol.

Wardragoon wrote:all kidding aside I do have to agree the hive fleets are just cannon fodder testing weaknesses until the big/original fleet hits, at that time I think humanity will be in a sorry(er)state, especially considering the Hive Mind is drawn to the astronomicon like a moth to fire, but then again the ultrasmurfs will be there, so I take that back, plot armor covered ultramarines will win the day

Seconded

Scrabb wrote:

D.Smith wrote:Dont discount that, yes the imperium/mechanicus have titans, so do the tyranids.
I think the victor of the war would depend on the speed and location of the main tyranid invasion.

Dan

Then the tyranids don't stand a chance. They are significantly slower than the imperium and are attacking the center of their power, Holy Terra itself.

I could imagine the Imperium being able to lose and rebuild entire fleets, legions of titans and the entirety of the space marine chapters in between tyranid waves.

Space marines take incredibly long times to produce, and titans are almost ereplaceable.

Mr Nobody wrote:

Scrabb wrote:

D.Smith wrote:Dont discount that, yes the imperium/mechanicus have titans, so do the tyranids.
I think the victor of the war would depend on the speed and location of the main tyranid invasion.

Dan

Then the tyranids don't stand a chance. They are significantly slower than the imperium and are attacking the center of their power, Holy Terra itself.

I could imagine the Imperium being able to lose and rebuild entire fleets, legions of titans and the entirety of the space marine chapters in between tyranid waves.

Space marines take incredibly long times to produce, and titans are almost ereplaceable.

How long does it take to make a space marine out of a man? A hundred years? As for the titans, if they still have the templates for them they could make at least as many of them as they do battleships, which is actually a lot. If they're literally not replaceable than I stand corrected. I guess they'll just have to supplement with more fleet power.

gloomygrim wrote:I do think the hive mind is like a planet sized thing that has become completly self sufficent and uses up so much of its power to control the hive that it is incapable of movment

Then you odn't understand the fluff at all. The hive mind is a psychic presence in the warp, the actual physical part of it is the whole Tyranid race. The hive mind is the Tyranid race, and the Tyranid race is the hive mind.

-Loki- wrote:

gloomygrim wrote:I do think the hive mind is like a planet sized thing that has become completly self sufficent and uses up so much of its power to control the hive that it is incapable of movment

Then you odn't understand the fluff at all. The hive mind is a psychic presence in the warp, the actual physical part of it is the whole Tyranid race. The hive mind is the Tyranid race, and the Tyranid race is the hive mind.

It may be in the warp but that dosnt mean it cant have a physical manifestation in reality or be aphysical being in the warp, fluff is all open to interpritation specially were there is no or little history of a race or creature.

gloomygrim wrote:
It may be in the warp but that dosnt mean it cant have a physical manifestation in reality or be aphysical being in the warp, fluff is all open to interpritation specially were there is no or little history of a race or creature.

Your idea is about as far out of left field as the Emperor being an eldar farseer who stole a strong human's body and used it as a focus to guide mankind. IMHO

I'm glad you've made the fluff your own but, again IMHO, that idea is contradictory to what we have to work with.

Scrabb wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:

Scrabb wrote:

D.Smith wrote:Dont discount that, yes the imperium/mechanicus have titans, so do the tyranids.
I think the victor of the war would depend on the speed and location of the main tyranid invasion.

Dan

Then the tyranids don't stand a chance. They are significantly slower than the imperium and are attacking the center of their power, Holy Terra itself.

I could imagine the Imperium being able to lose and rebuild entire fleets, legions of titans and the entirety of the space marine chapters in between tyranid waves.

Space marines take incredibly long times to produce, and titans are almost ereplaceable.

How long does it take to make a space marine out of a man? A hundred years? As for the titans, if they still have the templates for them they could make at least as many of them as they do battleships, which is actually a lot. If they're literally not replaceable than I stand corrected. I guess they'll just have to supplement with more fleet power.

Not really irreplaceable..... but they arent as good as the original. The knowledge of producing tech is degrading cuz the Imperium is afraid of skynet happening again.

Despite being a space bug fan, I'm inclined to think that the iom could probably muster enough military strength to singularly defend itself from the full onslaught of any other single attacker, nid or otherwise. However it's when you get all the other races involved that it gets messy.

I'm all for a bit of my team could beat your team banter, but it seems reasonable that gw have skewed the fluff so that one side isn't unfathomably capable of beating any one of the others. *ducks for fanboy backlash*

Ergo any hasty dismissals of another races capabilty strike me as a little rude, or at least inconsiderate.

gloomygrim wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

gloomygrim wrote:I do think the hive mind is like a planet sized thing that has become completly self sufficent and uses up so much of its power to control the hive that it is incapable of movment

Then you odn't understand the fluff at all. The hive mind is a psychic presence in the warp, the actual physical part of it is the whole Tyranid race. The hive mind is the Tyranid race, and the Tyranid race is the hive mind.

It may be in the warp but that dosnt mean it cant have a physical manifestation in reality or be aphysical being in the warp, fluff is all open to interpritation specially were there is no or little history of a race or creature.

It does have a physical representation. You don't need to make one up. It's the Tyranid race.

yevix wrote:also there was a picture (lost it) where a whole hive fleet simply ignored 1 world (looked like a deathstar) in my eyes that was a necron world and nids simply dont care for them - if the nids were a creation of the old ones wouldn't they attack necrons at first sight

No...Tyranids tend to avoid Necrons because they can't gather biomass because they are inorganic. It's a fruitless battle, so they tend to go out of their way to avoid any and all fights with the Necrons.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Since the Tyranids practically define "failure," even more than Abaddon does, I have a very hard time believing that they've consumed more than their home galaxy (if even that, they could well have left it with their tails between their legs if there was anything able to so much as raise a gun sharing it with them), unless there's been nothing more dangerous than some particularly fierce rabbits inhabiting those galaxies.

Behemoth devoured hundreds of planets before beings stopped, not to mention eating the entire Ultramarines 1st company and almost killing Marneus Calgar. Naga ate countless worlds and wiped out an entire Eldar Craftworld. Kraken caused alot of political chaos with the Inquisition trying to root out heretics that were found to be genestealer cultists from Kraken, not to mention putting the Iyanden Craftworld on the brink of extinction. The Imperium, Tau, and Eldar are all making their best effort to stop Leviathan, but it's not skipping a beat. So...

- Ate Thousands of Planets
- Ate an Eldar Craftworld
- Caused the unjust imprisonment of millions of Imperial citizens.
- Almost killed Calgar
- Put Iyanden on the brink of extinction
- Its most recent hive fleet has thus-far proved unstoppable

Explain to me how they are a failure?

Also, a key feature of the Tyranid race is their ability to evolve. When Behemoth fought the Ultramarines they had no idea what they were up against. This is why Kraken was even nastier than Behemoth and Leviathan is even nastier than Kraken. When and if Leviathan is destroyed, the next fleet will be worse. If that one is destroyed, the next one will be worse. They'll keep getting harder and harder to stop until they've evolved to the point where no-one can stop them. Because every time a Hive Fleet is destroyed, the Hive Mind produces new Fleets that have fixed the problems that were the downfall of the previous Fleet.

Also, note, something that is heavily emphasized is that the Tyranids we have seen are more than likely only a very small percentage of the Tyranids that exist in the universe. We've only seen a tiny fraction of what the Hive Fleet has in store for our yummy, yummy universe.

Abadabadoobadon has nothing on the Nids.

gloomygrim wrote:
It may be in the warp but that dosnt mean it cant have a physical manifestation in reality or be aphysical being in the warp, fluff is all open to interpritation specially were there is no or little history of a race or creature.

No. The Hive Mind is not a physical thing. The Hive Mind is like a brain, the Tyranids are like the countless brain cells that make up that brain, all connected to form a giant conciousness.

Darth Bob wrote:- Ate Thousands of Planets

Puts them above tau and both flavors of eldar in current direct force damage.

Darth Bob wrote:- Ate an Eldar Craftworld

Impressive. A triumph of the Hive Mind interfering with the Farseers no doubt.

Darth Bob wrote:- Caused the unjust imprisonment of millions of Imperial citizens.

Rounding error. Inquisitor got up on the wrong side ofthe bed.

Darth Bob wrote:- Almost killed Calgar

insignificant.

Darth Bob wrote:- Put Iyanden on the brink of extinction

They are good at sneaking up on those eldar.

Darth Bob wrote:- Its most recent hive fleet has thus-far proved unstoppable

Correction. Leviathan has been bogged down by an ork rich system. It is too close to call right now.

Darth Bob wrote:
Also, a key feature of the Tyranid race is their ability to evolve. When Behemoth fought the Ultramarines they had no idea what they were up against.

Neither did the marines.

Darth Bob wrote:This is why Kraken was even nastier than Behemoth and Leviathan is even nastier than Kraken. When and if Leviathan is destroyed, the next fleet will be worse. If that one is destroyed, the next one will be worse. They'll keep getting harder and harder to stop until they've evolved to the point where no-one can stop them.

Does that point really exist? I mean, everything has limits. The hive mind is no exception. If it really was capable of 'perfection' it would have created itself some self sustaining ecosystems or learned to leech energy off the stars by now. Heck, maybe even made a ship that could travel as fast as the eldar or at least the imperium...

Darth Bob wrote:Because every time a Hive Fleet is destroyed, the Hive Mind produces new Fleets that have fixed the problems that were the downfall of the previous Fleet.

"Not enough of us." "Tendril fleet atomized, conditions unknown."

Darth Bob wrote:Also, note, something that is heavily emphasized is that the Tyranids we have seen are more than likely only a very small percentage of the Tyranids that exist in the universe. We've only seen a tiny fraction of what the Hive Fleet has in store for our yummy, yummy universe.

Unstoppable future forces/conditions? Never heard of those before. The Necrons have unlimited indestructible machines that self repair and their tomb worlds are seeded throughout the imperium (with some perilously close to Terra). The entire Eldar race are going to reincarnate themselves into a god of death and fight at the end times of the universe. The Orks have a carbon copy guarantee that they, alone, could take on everyone else combined if they simply fought together instead of against each other. The imperium already has control of a trillion systems and loses billions of lives due to rounding errors on tax returns.

Darth Bob wrote:Abadabadoobadon has nothing on the Nids.

Much truth.

Just a few points.

Scrabb wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:- Ate an Eldar Craftworld

Impressive. A triumph of the Hive Mind interfering with the Farseers no doubt.

the Kryptman quote that was looked for earlier in the thread is I believe this one from the previous Tyranid codex.

"It is now known that three major hive fleets have to date launched attacks upon our domains, and no effort has been spared to extrapolate the long term ramifications of the pattern of these incursions. The results of our studies, though far from conclusive, indicate findings that are dire in the extreme. It is the belief of this Collective that the hive fleets with which we have made contact represent not discrete and separate units, but fundamentally coordinated elements of a whole. In short, the hive fleets we have thus far encountered represent but the vanguard of a far larger force. They are but the talons on a rapidly constricting claw, and our galaxy has yet to feel the full might of the Hive Mind's force.

The ramifications then are clear. In the past 250 years we have been engaged upon a war in which we considered victory a possibility, provided we effect nigh intolerable sacrifices. But should those fleets we have encountered prove the merest fraction of a terrible whole, we have, at best, a century before the full force is brought to bear upon us. It is the belief of Strategic Intelligence Collective 827/II that current mobilization levels will need to be increased a minimum of 500% if we are to even stand a chance of slowing the advance of the Hive Mind. Every able bodied man and woman on every world in Ultima Segmentum, Segmentum Pacificus, and Segmentum Solar will need to be drafted into the Imperial Guard if we are to have any chance of repelling this foe.

Even without the predations of the Traitor Legions, the Orkoid menace, and a hundred other foes, our continued existence as a species appears now tenuous at best.

I commit our souls to the Emperor, for only faith in Him can save us."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
now that's some scale

The very fact that just ten percent of Leviathan is bogging down the entirety of the Ork system that has been bothering the imperium since the dawn of time is unbelievable.

Also, darth bob is right. The hive fleets are continuously getting more tactically advanced and efficient. Before there where never any 'nid attacks now suddenly they happen one after the other? That is why I believe there is a truly MASSIVE hive fleet..... that these the imperium has encountered are just tendrils of what is to come. Why the different tactics? unless they are prodding the galaxy and testing for weaknesses to exploit.

I invision the scenario like an Octopus..... the tentacles are coming in to prod and examin and see if the prey is edible..... and it is. So soon enough the mouth will be here.....

xXSir MontyXx wrote:The very fact that just ten percent of Leviathan is bogging down the entirety of the Ork system that has been bothering the imperium since the dawn of time is unbelievable.

Also, darth bob is right. The hive fleets are continuously getting more tactically advanced and efficient.

Even with that, the effect won't the full bang cause the other side know what the nids are up to and are planning for that eventual

Before there where never any 'nid attacks now suddenly they happen one after the other? That is why I believe there is a truly MASSIVE hive fleet..... that these the imperium has encountered are just tendrils of what is to come. Why the different tactics? unless they are prodding the galaxy and testing for weaknesses to exploit.

If it just one overly massive fleet, the nids are putting themselves into needless danger if anyone decides to use a couple of Black Hole Bombs (anime Gunbuster) or worst case do a galaxy scale big bang (anime Ideon) as the ultimate FU to the nids.

better for the nids to completely scatter themselves across the universe so there is almost no way any entity, species, organization and etc. from one galaxy can completely wipe them out.

Rubberanvil wrote:If it just one overly massive fleet, the nids are putting themselves into needless danger if anyone decides to use a couple of Black Hole Bombs (anime Gunbuster) or worst case do a galaxy scale big bang (anime Ideon) as the ultimate FU to the nids.

better for the nids to completely scatter themselves across the universe so there is almost no way any entity, species, organization and etc. from one galaxy can completely wipe them out.

....you have more faith in imperial technology then I do, they can barely fire their guns safely, I would not ttrust them with a black hole weapon, but I could see the Imperium coming out on top if they brought every spare asset to bear on the Nids, that or a mssive feeding fest

Rubberanvil wrote:If it just one overly massive fleet, the nids are putting themselves into needless danger if anyone decides to use a couple of Black Hole Bombs (anime Gunbuster) or worst case do a galaxy scale big bang (anime Ideon) as the ultimate FU to the nids.

Don't start bringing non-40k weapons into this thread, or it will end up like the last thread. Stick to what the Imperium is actually capable of fluffwise.

Have you ever chewed on tin foil?

exactly why nids don't eat Crons, fluff aside.. They always spit the bits out

Metal is mineral. Tyranids do harvest a planets minerals. The reason they avoid them is their tomb worlds tend to be pretty desolate, and Tyranids gain far more biomass from a planets biosphere than whatever is living on it, and there's not a whole lot in a normal tomb worlds biosphere.

Personally, from a strategic view the hive mind only has a handful of benefits from undergoing splinter fleet invasions like the IoM has encountered - to test the strength of it's opponents.
As if you were to look at the logistics of the hive mind it suggest this IMO,'it has enough biomass/resources to send splinter fleets on relitively "direct" attacks againts powereful opponents, without committing a large enough force to destroy it, what I mean by this is that they aren't attacking the galaxy from a 'front' they attack it from a point and drive inwards, surely when the hive mind wants to consume the galaxy it will come as a wave across the whole edge(if you can call it that) of the galaxy?
This suggest the hive mind is probing and is formulating an efficient plan to commit it's whole forces, OR it's more stupid than we think (I doubt this very much) OR possibly it could be the running from a bigger threat theory, causing the nids to display poor tactics (I doubt this thoery even more but included it as discussion point)

And on a separate note, don't forgeworlds take hundreds of years to try and manufacture a NEW TITAN? that ends up being sub par? From the impression I get (titanicus by dan Abnet is what comes to mind) the mechanicus prefers to repair titans, and if there destryed, that isn't helpful. Compare this to the tyranids where as long as they have enough biomass they can make their own titans, which I'm pretty confidant that their development time is more rapid than hundreds of years


Dan

D.Smith wrote:And on a separate note, don't forgeworlds take hundreds of years to try and manufacture a NEW TITAN? that ends up being sub par? From the impression I get (titanicus by dan Abnet is what comes to mind) the mechanicus prefers to repair titans, and if there destryed, that isn't helpful. Compare this to the tyranids where as long as they have enough biomass they can make their own titans, which I'm pretty confidant that their development time is more rapid than hundreds of years


Dan

Yes, something people keep forgetting. Tyranids grow now creatures quickly. Hell, they calve multiple hive ships when one dies - they just needs to grow after that.

Those 'minimal losses' the Imperium is taking take a long time to recover. A Titan takes decades to build. A new battleship takes centuries. A Space Marine takes decades from recruitment to being ready for combat as a scout - a whole company of Space Marines centuries old with millenia of combat experience between them would be irreplaceable. Just what hive fleet Behemoth did to the Imperium would take them millenia to recover from, without even taking into account the irreplaceable losses, like artefacts used by the Space Marines, the hundreds of planets stripped clean. The loss of a segmentums fleet would take millenia to replace, the Imperial Guard forces wiped out would require huge levels of conscription of the able bodied workforce.

Yes, they defeated a hive fleet - but the biomass harvested before it was destroyed was already taken, and would be sitting with the primary hive fleets as they calve new hive ships, and reinforcing the segmentum weakens the nearby forces that supplied those reinforcments while what was lost is slowly rebuilt

Wardragoon wrote:....you have more faith in imperial technology then I do, they can barely fire their guns safely, I would not ttrust them with a black hole weapon, but I could see the Imperium coming out on top if they brought every spare asset to bear on the Nids, that or a mssive feeding fest

Let's also not forget the amount of (in game) heavy, rapidfire, and pistol weapons with such fun side effects as "gets hot!", as opposed to a full weapon selection of assault weapons with a multitude of shots, which fluff wise infers considerably more efficient weapons systems that obviously don't require production facilities or AA batteries to power (D batteries for the hotshot lasguns ) but otherwise seems like the stockpiled weapons of the IoM are in greater supply than the constant rapid production of bio-weapons. But only time will show how many more dino-bugs rush in to fight.

Rubberanvil wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:The very fact that just ten percent of Leviathan is bogging down the entirety of the Ork system that has been bothering the imperium since the dawn of time is unbelievable.

Also, darth bob is right. The hive fleets are continuously getting more tactically advanced and efficient.

Even with that, the effect won't the full bang cause the other side know what the nids are up to and are planning for that eventual

Before there where never any 'nid attacks now suddenly they happen one after the other? That is why I believe there is a truly MASSIVE hive fleet..... that these the imperium has encountered are just tendrils of what is to come. Why the different tactics? unless they are prodding the galaxy and testing for weaknesses to exploit.

If it just one overly massive fleet, the nids are putting themselves into needless danger if anyone decides to use a couple of Black Hole Bombs (anime Gunbuster) or worst case do a galaxy scale big bang (anime Ideon) as the ultimate FU to the nids.

better for the nids to completely scatter themselves across the universe so there is almost no way any entity, species, organization and etc. from one galaxy can completely wipe them out.

No sarcasm or anything intended, just actual curiosity; why weren't these used on hive fleets before? Surely this would have been better than sending some 'nids into an are full of orks only to come back later.....

-Loki- wrote:
Those 'minimal losses' the Imperium is taking take a long time to recover. A Titan takes decades to build. A new battleship takes centuries. A Space Marine takes decades from recruitment to being ready for combat as a scout - a whole company of Space Marines centuries old with millenia of combat experience between them would be irreplaceable. Just what hive fleet Behemoth did to the Imperium would take them millenia to recover from, without even taking into account the irreplaceable losses, like artefacts used by the Space Marines, the hundreds of planets stripped clean. The loss of a segmentums fleet would take millenia to replace, the Imperial Guard forces wiped out would require huge levels of conscription of the able bodied workforce.

Yes, they defeated a hive fleet - but the biomass harvested before it was destroyed was already taken, and would be sitting with the primary hive fleets as they calve new hive ships, and reinforcing the segmentum weakens the nearby forces that supplied those reinforcments while what was lost is slowly rebuilt

Space Marines are a trivial, if shiny, novelty. Their numbers are negligible beside that of the Guard, and their leaders have all the tactical acumen of a brick. A hundred thousand Space Marines dead wouldn't mean anything to the Imperium, and a company is a thousandth of that.

The Guard itself takes only a relative handful of recruits from worlds. Tanith, a world with a population in the low billions (assuming a very low population density), was tithed for six thousand recruits. Terra, which if I recall correctly has a population in the tens of trillions, only has a few million in its personal legions. Two regiments (about two-three thousand guardsmen in this case, going off the numbers the combined regiment is listed as being maintained at), with only the local militia as reinforcements, are mentioned as having stopped a splinter fleet in For the Emperor (making them expert Tyranid killers (you shoot the big ones!)), suffering only about 50% casualties each.

Tyranids may grow new soldiers quickly, but they're hideously inefficient with everything they do. The amount of energy they expend in harvesting a planet leaves them with only a minor net gain, and failing to take a single planet they've attacked is an almost irreparable loss to a Hive Fleet. Their only advantage is the speed at which they can take a planet, but they're painfully slow in moving on to the next, negating that. They'd have to be burning most of the excess resources taken from the last world to invest in taking the next, considering their numbers don't increase to unmatchable levels after only a few worlds. Splinter fleets spend decades chewing on backwaters no one will miss to grow to even a fraction of the full strength of the initial Hive Fleet.

I don't think the theory that they're secreting all the resources they harvest away somewhere, while maintaining a tiny, easily slaughtered fleet to do the harvesting holds much water. If they had more resources at their disposal, and didn't in fact burn most of them up in harvesting a world and refueling for the next attack, their numbers would be unassailable, and they wouldn't just be throwing massive investments into a meatgrinder.


It may well be that the fleets enter the galaxy as single ships, spending decades feeding on undefended fringe worlds before daring to try to penetrate deeper. Any resources harvested from a previous galaxy could well have been burned up sending a relatively small number of seed ships to this one. That's a far more realistic take than fleets containing many trillions of tons of hive ship making the journey only to be thrown into a meatgrinder for "strategic research". Unless the Tyranids make even smurfs look brilliant, which I don't believe for a second. They certainly seem to be pretty dull witted, given all the resources at their disposal compared to the results they get with them, but even that's a far sight brighter than Space Marines.

Interesting ideas apart from one key thing, they MUST have biomass reserves as the distance to travel between galaxies means they would have to have this reserve and also the ability to re-store their collected biomass.

And where did you find the fluff on only having a "small" net gain from devouring a planet? I havent seen this before?


Dan

The notion that they're just sending most of the biomass to some undisclosed location for storage, rather than using it to create an unstoppable fleet? Loki's post near the end of your "Hypothetical Tyranid Attack" thread about how much mass a planet provides compared to how much the Tyranid fleet increases by after apparently consuming it?

If we look at what the Tyranids are doing, spawning massive numbers of highly energetic creatures to run around eating a planet, and then dragging trillions of tons of low-yield dirt sludge into orbit, before entering a non-warp but apparently FTL travel to their next destination, these are all extremely resource intensive actions. Since Hive Fleets are obliterated and scattered in the cases where they fail to take a world they've invested resources attacking, and don't appear again for decades, it can be be gathered that the apparently missing mass isn't in reserve either, or they'd recover much faster. It can be assumed that they have a net gain from processing a planet, as they continue to harvest planets, but as they don't increase their ranks by much, they take decades to build up even a small fleet, and everything they do is extremely resource intensive, it is the logical conclusion that they don't gain very much for every world take.


As for having massive reserves, more reserves means more energy required to get them there. The resources required to get a single full Hive Fleet through the intervening space would be absurdly wasteful, so the logical conclusion is small "seed" ships dumping spores on undefended fringe worlds, and building up the fleet at the edges of this galaxy, before striking inwards. Same effect as observed, less resources wasted.

I can see the logic in your argument about energy harvested from a planet being smaller than advertised, but unless you can compute the calories a whole planets biomass would contribute I'm going to say you're making a big assumption yo hinge that part of your argument on.

With reference to the nids not reappearing soon after a defeat being indicative of the lack of reserves, as mentioned previously nids are not as quick at space travel as tech based races, which would hinder this greatly.

Lastly, stating that moving the suspected reserves have demands that outweigh the point of taking them doesn't cater for the prospect of there being a balance struck between reserves and overall weight which would allow their transport. Again with nids moving slower through space, this may indicate a greater efficiency with their propulsion rather than a loss.

I'm not implying that your arguments are incorrect, just that there are alternatives that allow for the nids to be more capable than you have suggested.

Wardragoon wrote:

Rubberanvil wrote:If it just one overly massive fleet, the nids are putting themselves into needless danger if anyone decides to use a couple of Black Hole Bombs (anime Gunbuster) or worst case do a galaxy scale big bang (anime Ideon) as the ultimate FU to the nids.

better for the nids to completely scatter themselves across the universe so there is almost no way any entity, species, organization and etc. from one galaxy can completely wipe them out.

....you have more faith in imperial technology then I do, they can barely fire their guns safely, I would not ttrust them with a black hole weapon, but I could see the Imperium coming out on top if they brought every spare asset to bear on the Nids, that or a mssive feeding fest

My opinion of IoM is pretty low as well when they do have a black hole bomb substitute with the detonating warp drives, if any one in IoM actually took notes of how the Battle for Macragge was won in space. Through only warp drives possibly available for weaponization(sp) would be for destroyers. Big Bang type weapon would the any weapon when use will basically wipe out everything within range. Range would be any where from one galaxy to whole multi-verse.

-Loki- wrote:

Rubberanvil wrote:If it just one overly massive fleet, the nids are putting themselves into needless danger if anyone decides to use a couple of Black Hole Bombs (anime Gunbuster) or worst case do a galaxy scale big bang (anime Ideon) as the ultimate FU to the nids.

Was not bringing other weapons into 40K, just mentioning examples.

Don't start bringing non-40k weapons into this thread, or it will end up like the last thread. Stick to what the Imperium is actually capable of fluffwise.

I'm not bringing non-40k weapon, just am mentioning examples of what

-Loki- wrote:Just a few points.

Scrabb wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:- Ate an Eldar Craftworld

Impressive. A triumph of the Hive Mind interfering with the Farseers no doubt.

No, just one specialized bioform. One Tyranid killed a whole Craftworld. Which the Tyranids now have in their genetic vaults.

I thought eldar fluff had farseers steering their craftworld free of threats. Still, a space marine blowing up a traitor battleship would be a triumph of the imperium. When Shadowsun defeated a tyranid splinter fleet without losing a ship it was a triumph for the Tau Empire.

-Loki- wrote:

Scrabb wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:- Put Iyanden on the brink of extinction

They are good at sneaking up on those eldar.

You say that like sneaking up on the most advanced psychic race, technologically and psychically, is easy.

It's a big deal, but again, they lost. It also could have been a subset point with the other destroyed craftworld.

-Loki- wrote:

Scrabb wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:- Its most recent hive fleet has thus-far proved unstoppable

Correction. Leviathan has been bogged down by an ork rich system. It is too close to call right now.

One tendril of Leviathan has been bogged down in the Octarius system. Congratulations Kryptmann, you diverted about 10% of a hive fleet and bogged it down. There's only the rest of the swarm eating everything unhindered.

I was under the impression that the entirety of the second half of Leviathan was engaged.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Hive_Fleet_Leviathan

Even if I'm wrong this proves there are powerful people in the imperium capable of altering tyranid fleet approach patterns.

What i've gotten so far from reading through the pages concerning the Tyranids, are that the Tyranids hadn't had that great succes on the larger scale. However (!!!)...

.. What you do learn, is that their adaptability is near-unmatched by any race, in both aspects such as cunning and raw force. If but a single Tyranid creature remains, chances are that everything might start all over again.

One of the biggest flaws of the Tyranids have most often been, that they've been unlucky at choosing their battles, and being both too eager, and trying to consume the whole galaxy just doesn't go hand in hand very well.

In the latest 'nidz codex, there' alot of fluff concerning the larger battles, such as the first encounter, where Marneus was nearly killed by the Swarmlord - had it not been for his Honour Guard. The battle did, however, cost the Ultramarines their entire 1st chapter, and the final battle in space, a great battleship.

The 2nd battle seemed a bigger succes. Though, yet again, the Tyranids were too hasty at picking their targets. This time, they divided their main forces and attacked both the Iyanden Craftworld, that nearly spelled extinction, had it not been for Yriel picking up the cursed Twilight Spear, sealing his own fate, and the Ultramarines.

If Robin Cruddace writes the next codex again, the nids have no chance at all!!

On a more serious note, there is evidence that the nids do have a much larger body of nids to call upon.

- Nids are drawn to the light astronomicon so all nids in the universe are coming towards terra
- Takes a loooong time for nids to travel to the milky way (hence the piece-meal effect)
- Introduction of more & more separate hive fleets as time goes on
- Escaping nid ships (Jormunga?) running from Tau pursuit craft towards...?

Fluff also states that nids have consumed several galaxies in the past before moving to ours. Even if those were "weaker" galaxies, thats a hell lot of biomass! As per written fluff, Kraken(?) was able to become a credible threat again after several "meals/planets".

All this discussion is moot though as the fluff will never advance. If it did:

- Nids evloution overcome and completely digest Ork biology (nids from spores!) in the Octavius war
- The whole nid invasion force moves into the milky way and nom noms everyone... etc

But I feel (IMHO only) that nids remain the sole credible threat based on fluff. They are singularly organized, born for war, incapable of remorse and have the ability & numbers to adapt. Thats win, win, win and win in my book for an army built to conquer.

Scrabb wrote:

-Loki- wrote:Just a few points.

Scrabb wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:- Ate an Eldar Craftworld

Impressive. A triumph of the Hive Mind interfering with the Farseers no doubt.

No, just one specialized bioform. One Tyranid killed a whole Craftworld. Which the Tyranids now have in their genetic vaults.

I thought eldar fluff had farseers steering their craftworld free of threats. Still, a space marine blowing up a traitor battleship would be a triumph of the imperium. When Shadowsun defeated a tyranid splinter fleet without losing a ship it was a triumph for the Tau Empire.

Not only did the Doom of Malan'tai basically kill the Craftworld single handed, it did it free of synapse control and destroyed all of the Eldar souls on the infinity circuit and in soul stones. That thing is nasty.

Scrabb wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Scrabb wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:- Put Iyanden on the brink of extinction

They are good at sneaking up on those eldar.

You say that like sneaking up on the most advanced psychic race, technologically and psychically, is easy.

It's a big deal, but again, they lost. It also could have been a subset point with the other destroyed craftworld.

Depends on if you consider that Iyanden won. I wouldn't call losing 80% of the living members of an entire craftworld, plus the soulstones of most of the killed inhabitants, 'winning'. I'd say they both lost that war.

Scrabb wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Scrabb wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:- Its most recent hive fleet has thus-far proved unstoppable

Correction. Leviathan has been bogged down by an ork rich system. It is too close to call right now.

One tendril of Leviathan has been bogged down in the Octarius system. Congratulations Kryptmann, you diverted about 10% of a hive fleet and bogged it down. There's only the rest of the swarm eating everything unhindered.

I was under the impression that the entirety of the second half of Leviathan was engaged.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Hive_Fleet_Leviathan

Even if I'm wrong this proves there are powerful people in the imperium capable of altering tyranid fleet approach patterns.

They never specified how mich of Leviathan was diverted. However, if you look at the map of Leviathans activities in the Tyranid codex, one small tendril hit Octarius. Leviathan is doing far more damage to the Imperium than it is given credit for - it's already destroyed at least 2 Space Marine chapters and annihilated Gryphonne IV, a major Forgeworld. Not to mention they ate the Squats

Kryptmann had a minor success, and his methods hardly justified the small amount of the hive fleet he diverted.

Well in the end the universe will be going to nids or crons (sounds like really bad gangs).

-Loki- wrote:Not only did the Doom of Malan'tai basically kill the Craftworld single handed, it did it free of synapse control and destroyed all of the Eldar souls on the infinity circuit and in soul stones. That thing is nasty.

So it found the craftworld? Or did the hive mind find it and then activate their new weapon? Yes, it is very nasty.

-Loki- wrote:Depends on if you consider that Iyanden won. I wouldn't call losing 80% of the living members of an entire craftworld, plus the soulstones of most of the killed inhabitants, 'winning'. I'd say they both lost that war.

I never said the eldar won. But losing a hive fleet is definitely a loss for the tyranids.

Scrabb wrote:
Even if I'm wrong this proves there are powerful people in the imperium capable of altering tyranid fleet approach patterns.

-Loki- wrote:They never specified how mich of Leviathan was diverted. However, if you look at the map of Leviathans activities in the Tyranid codex, one small tendril hit Octarius. Leviathan is doing far more damage to the Imperium than it is given credit for - it's already destroyed at least 2 Space Marine chapters and annihilated Gryphonne IV, a major Forgeworld. Not to mention they ate the Squats

Kryptmann had a minor success, and his methods hardly justified the small amount of the hive fleet he diverted.

The Squats..

Well there you go. I guess Leviathan hasn't been stopped yet.

I'd like to add that I agree the tyranids are preparing for a massive offensive. I actually believe that when it comes it will be the number one actual threat to the imperium it has ever faced. Larger even than the horus rebellion and the trepidations of chaos. They will definitely cause the collapse of the imperium, but it will be the aftershock of attacks from other powers because the imperium, and terra, have been so devastated by the tyranid attack.

What is really hurting the IoM is the near complete unwillingness to take the threat seriously whether it is Chaos, nids, orks and etc. and not going into total war mode. Even if the IoM militarize 1 to 10% of total population that would be enough to stymied the nids a put.

Rubberanvil wrote:What is really hurting the IoM is the near complete unwillingness to take the threat seriously whether it is Chaos, nids, orks and etc. and not going into total war mode. Even if the IoM militarize 1 to 10% of total population that would be enough to stymied the nids a put.

I second that.

The high lords of terra are either lazy, or a bunch of cowards. Probably both.

Laodamia wrote:

Rubberanvil wrote:What is really hurting the IoM is the near complete unwillingness to take the threat seriously whether it is Chaos, nids, orks and etc. and not going into total war mode. Even if the IoM militarize 1 to 10% of total population that would be enough to stymied the nids a put.

I second that.

The high lords of terra are either lazy, or a bunch of cowards. Probably both.

Thirded, but with the inclusion of their stubbornness against technology.

Leviathan is hardly bogged down it's done some major damage.

1. They Destroyed Posul Chapter Planet of the Mortificators.

2. They Destroyed Talon Chapter Planet of the Storm Falcons

3. They Destoyed Endragiga one of the Regions Major Shipyards

4. They Destroyed Forgefane, Fortress world to the Iron warriors.

5. They Destroyed the Ultima Fleet

6. They Destroyed Gryphonne IV dispite it being defended by the Adaptus Mechanicus's Skitarii and some Titan Legions.

In addtion they destoryed at least 24 additional worlds

Right now they have tendrals engaged by the Orks at Telsa Prime and at Orktarius. Orks seem to be tough for Nids to deal with.

A fleet made up from Ships from 15 Space Marine Chapters are fighting various tendrils, so far they have always had to fall back.

And now one tendril is pointing towards Terra

At the same time Hive fleet Jormungandr woke up in the same area and destoyed Obliterax.

Hive fleet Medusa showed up close by at Shadrac a world defended by Space Wolves and the Imperial Guard, they eventually have to flee.

And finally Hive Fleet Moloch showed up after absorbing its way through the Ghoul stars and wiped out the Tarellians.

So approching Segmentum Solar from several directions are 4 Hive Fleets.

This was all done in less than 2 years

All things considered they're not doing too badly are they?

Leviathan is definitely quite a challenge for everyone that encounters it.

The thing is, that we really don't know their true agenda. From what i've learned, the 'nidz keeps pushing the limits, testing their foe/prey.
- The case might be, that the larger battles, that took it's toll on the 'nidz just might've been one big scheme to better adapt their real sizes to whatever they face.

There's also quite alot of cases, where the 'nidz have simply been blown out of the sky, with nothing more than a few pods making it. Let alone, these surviving pods have spelled doom for the inhabitants.

- There's also been cases, where Tyranids have survived total destruction of a planet (Inquisitor Kryptman's exterminatus). In these cases, the threat was dealt with. But my speculations is, that some organisms might've survived, as a part of a greater scheme to have Tyranid organisms spead across the galaxy, to appear whenever the Hive Mind sees fit.

EDIT: double-posted same mess.

Billinator wrote:The thing is, that we really don't know their true agenda. From what i've learned, the 'nidz keeps pushing the limits, testing their foe/prey.
- The case might be, that the larger battles, that took it's toll on the 'nidz just might've been one big scheme to better adapt their real sizes to whatever they face.

There's also quite alot of cases, where the 'nidz have simply been blown out of the sky, with nothing more than a few pods making it. Let alone, these surviving pods have spelled doom for the inhabitants.

- There's also been cases, where Tyranids have survived total destruction of a planet (Inquisitor Kryptman's exterminatus). In these cases, the threat was dealt with. But my speculations is, that some organisms might've survived, as a part of a greater scheme to have Tyranid organisms spead across the galaxy, to appear whenever the Hive Mind sees fit.

EDIT: double-posted same mess.

So the tyranids are trying to become more like orks?

There will not be some major threat in some 200 years or less. Blood Ravens where able to defeat them with little force. And I believe other can do it to.

Scrabb wrote:

Billinator wrote:The thing is, that we really don't know their true agenda. From what i've learned, the 'nidz keeps pushing the limits, testing their foe/prey.
- The case might be, that the larger battles, that took it's toll on the 'nidz just might've been one big scheme to better adapt their real sizes to whatever they face.

There's also quite alot of cases, where the 'nidz have simply been blown out of the sky, with nothing more than a few pods making it. Let alone, these surviving pods have spelled doom for the inhabitants.

- There's also been cases, where Tyranids have survived total destruction of a planet (Inquisitor Kryptman's exterminatus). In these cases, the threat was dealt with. But my speculations is, that some organisms might've survived, as a part of a greater scheme to have Tyranid organisms spead across the galaxy, to appear whenever the Hive Mind sees fit.

EDIT: double-posted same mess.

So the tyranids are trying to become more like orks?

If by "become more like orks", you refeer to them as consuming them and using them as biomass, then; Yes..?

One of the above mentioned scenario's, where a few spores managed to escape were against orks. IIRC, the Tyranid fleet got chased down by a major IoM, until the IoM found themselves at the border to Ork territory, and left the remainder of the 'nidz to the orks. Since then, the Fleet was blown out of the sky from a heavy ork space fleet, with only a few pods intact.
- These pods then crash landed on a nearby ork planet. Of these pods, most of them were taken care of by the planets residents, but a few managed to escape.
- From these few that managed to survive, they dug tunnels, they reproduced, from taking out small patrols, until eventually, they became too great a threat for the orks to simply ignore.
- Since then, they showed superior sense of tactics towards the orks, from being outnumbered. They'd simply use hit and run-tactics more than not, 'till they finally provoked the orks mightiest leader into a state of stubborn rage, and made the ork and his followers blindly assault the Tyranids, only to find themselves in a thick fog of toxic miasma from the Venomthropes.
- After that, the orks were scattered and divided, and unable to organize, and made easy prey for the cunning Tyranid organisms. Later, the planet was consumed, and the Tyranid rose once more.

EDIT: Turbo-Typo

Billinator wrote:
If by "become more like orks", you refeer to them as consuming them and using them as biomass, then; Yes..?

One of the above mentioned scenario's, where a few spores managed to escape were against orks. IIRC, the Tyranid fleet got chased down by a major IoM, until the IoM found themselves at the border to Ork territory, and left the remainder of the 'nidz to the orks. Since then, the Fleet was blown out of the sky from a heavy ork space fleet, with only a few pods intact.
- These pods then crash landed on a nearby ork planet. Of these pods, most of them were taken care of by the planets residents, but a few managed to escape.
- From these few that managed to survive, they dug tunnels, they reproduced, from taking out small patrols, until eventually, they became too great a threat for the orks to simply ignore.
- Since then, they showed superior sense of tactics towards the orks, from being outnumbered. They'd simply use hit and run-tactics more than not, 'till they finally provoked the orks mightiest leader into a state of stubborn rage, and made the ork and his followers blindly assault the Tyranids, only to find themselves in a thick fog of toxic miasma from the Venomthropes.
- After that, the orks were scattered and divided, and unable to organize, and made easy prey for the cunning Tyranid organisms. Later, the planet was consumed, and the Tyranid rose once more.

EDIT: Turbo-Typo

Just a little tongue in cheek about the similarities between orks and tyranids in the toughness of exterminating.

Yup, there are instances of nids taking out ork worlds. There is still powerful ork resistance though.

@Scrabb
The ork and 'nidz has some similarities, yes. Just like any other army and orks has it. Orks and 'nidz may share a couple more, but i'm not really sure i'd claim that the 'nidz are trying to become more like the orks. They're most likely bound to become more like them, when they consume them.

- And yes, there are many powerful ork resistances, that's very true. My example was simply to indicate, that nothing more than a few pods can mean the undoing of a whole ork planet. The ork is just too unorganized, when they don't have a big-husked ork to lead them... And if you read the Tyranid codex, you'll learn that the Tyranids have shown excessive cunning and sly tactical capabilities.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Laodamia wrote:

Rubberanvil wrote:What is really hurting the IoM is the near complete unwillingness to take the threat seriously whether it is Chaos, nids, orks and etc. and not going into total war mode. Even if the IoM militarize 1 to 10% of total population that would be enough to stymied the nids a put.

I second that.

The high lords of terra are either lazy, or a bunch of cowards. Probably both.

Thirded, but with the inclusion of their stubbornness against technology.

Well, if you want to get into that, the Tyranid codex does mention the IoM needing to conscript every single person to effectively combat the Tyranids if they do in fact keep coming.

That's a quote from Kryptman, who for all intents and purposes seems to be completely insane, and unaware of how much of the population is actually in the Guard. At first, he says they'd have to increase the size by 500% (or to 500%, I'm not sure which; the difference being the first leaves it at 6 times the current, the other at 5 times), but then says that every man, woman, and child who can hold a lasgun would have to be drafted. That implies that about ten percent (somewhere in the range of 8-16%, depending on the percentage of able bodies in the Imperium) of the population is in the Guard. Except, where we have hard figures, it seems far more likely well under one percent is in the Guard. Tanith was tithed for three regiments of two thousand each, or six thousand in all. Assuming it's roughly the size of the Earth, even if there was only one person per square kilometer, that would only be .001% of the population. Hive worlds provide more regiments, but they also have populations in the tens of billions to the tens of trillions. Terra, which we are led to believe has tens of trillions of residents, ostensibly has only a few million bodies in its own legions.

If the Imperium drafted even one percent of its population for the sole purpose of fighting the tyranids, they would outnumber the "numberless" swarms, assuming they could arm them.

There's also the possibility that he's exaggerating to try to convince the command to increase it by maybe even double it's current size, knowing that they're not going to go nearly as far as he says is necessary. "If you want a hundred, ask for a thousand" and whatnot.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:That's a quote from Kryptman, who for all intents and purposes seems to be completely insane, and unaware of how much of the population is actually in the Guard. At first, he says they'd have to increase the size by 500% (or to 500%, I'm not sure which; the difference being the first leaves it at 6 times the current, the other at 5 times), but then says that every man, woman, and child who can hold a lasgun would have to be drafted. That implies that about ten percent (somewhere in the range of 8-16%, depending on the percentage of able bodies in the Imperium) of the population is in the Guard. Except, where we have hard figures, it seems far more likely well under one percent is in the Guard. Tanith was tithed for three regiments of two thousand each, or six thousand in all. Assuming it's roughly the size of the Earth, even if there was only one person per square kilometer, that would only be .001% of the population. Hive worlds provide more regiments, but they also have populations in the tens of billions to the tens of trillions. Terra, which we are led to believe has tens of trillions of residents, ostensibly has only a few million bodies in its own legions.

Hence the failure of IoM's director(s) of human resources to make effective use of it's most abundant resource. I'm not just speaking of only the nids threat but also every other threat to IoM, it be orks, chaos, (dark) elder, and etc. where in the codexes(sp?) only thousands to millions of IoM IG, PDF, and civilians are fighting and dying against the xeno scrounge on hive worlds.

If the Imperium drafted even one percent of its population for the sole purpose of fighting the tyranids, they would outnumber the "numberless" swarms, assuming they could arm them.

The Imperium as is, should have the capability to arm one percent of the population though a large minority of them probably wouldn't have the most up to date weapons.

I was told by GW staff that the hive mind was a rouge Catan that wanted an army of flesh rather than metal because it was more adaptable. So the desiver tricked him by giving him an army of super evolutionary creatures he couldn't keep pace with but needed him to survive.

I have never heard that one before

haloreach4ever wrote:I was told by GW staff that the hive mind was a rouge Catan that wanted an army of flesh rather than metal because it was more adaptable. So the desiver tricked him by giving him an army of super evolutionary creatures he couldn't keep pace with but needed him to survive.

You realize redshirts know less than people who trawl forums all day, right? A manager told me about a month before the release of the Stompa kit that they would never make a model like that because it's too complex, so if I wanted one, I'd have to scratch build one.

The creators of any gae will always throw tidbits of info out to stir up the crowd and keep you wondering. Im sure other GW staff have said things that will completely contradict that

I was told by GW staff that squats were going to be released on christmas. Not really, but 90% of GW staff information contradicts itself or is speculation.

Oh ok then...

Not that you're necessarily wrong or it's not a fun idea, but it's generally a good idea to take GW staff information with a grain of salt.

Scrabb wrote:Not that you're necessarily wrong or it's not a fun idea, but it's generally a good idea to take GW staff information with a grain of salt.

I'm thinkin this is a good pinch of salt to take with what GW says

I think that the tyrnids have encounterd many other galixys. But that ours is the best defended, due to the sheer size of the imperium of man. And the only reason that the imperium of man has a chanse is because it has a god divoted to its protection (DAUSE IMPERETOR!!!).





Sorry for spelling arrors.

Armadeus wrote:I think that the tyrnids have encounterd many other galixys. But that ours is the best defended, due to the sheer size of the imperium of man. And the only reason that the imperium of man has a chanse is because it has a god divoted to its protection (DAUSE IMPERETOR!!!).





Sorry for spelling arrors.

Seconded

Kryptmann said that the IoM needs to increase recruitment by 500% thereby inducting every man, woman, and child into the Guard...except an increase of 500% simply means that instead of taking the top 10% of the PDF, the guard would take 50%...and again writers have no sense of scale <_<

Load suicide strike cruisers with the life eater virus.

Launch waves of different strains at the Nids when they attack.

No need to recruit, everyone can still farm and make babies.

Retribution wrote:Kryptmann said that the IoM needs to increase recruitment by 500% thereby inducting every man, woman, and child into the Guard...except an increase of 500% simply means that instead of taking the top 10% of the PDF, the guard would take 50%...and again writers have no sense of scale <_<

Kryptman is either insane (likely, given his general behavior) or exaggerating for effect (ask for ten when you want one, and all). Looking at the only numbers we ever see, well under 1% of the population is in the Guard. Even if it were increased by 500% (which is vague in and of itself, is it saying that it should be multiplied by five, or that five times the current number should be added onto it?), it would still fall well short of 1%. From the Guard codex, we're told that Armageddon, a war-torn world in the middle of a conflict-ridden area, is generally tithed for one hundred million recruits, out of its population of hundreds of billions (so, less than .1% of its population, for a world with an extremely high tithe rate). From Gaunt's Ghosts, we have Tanith, a low density world we can probably assume has several billion inhabitants, being tithed for 6000 troops. Honestly, even the Guard codex's "10% of the PDF per year" seems absurdly high compared to the hard numbers we see, unless planets keep extremely small PDF's as a matter of policy.

Where do these numbers with hundreds of billion of people on a single planet come from? There's nowhere to put that many people on a planet.

Edit: especially not a heavily war torn planet.

Page eight of the Guard codex. "For a hive world such as Armageddon, caught in the throes of an all-consuming war, a draft of a hundred million men at arms and several million armoured vehicles is typical - a tiny fraction of the total populace which numbers in the hundreds of billions."

You're underestimating the density of hives. Think of the most densely populated cities on Earth. Now stack them on top of each other until you have a column several miles high. Now cover a space the size of North America with it. Now add two or three more of those elsewhere on the planet. That is a hive world. Terra itself has a population of 32 trillion.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote: Terra itself has a population of 32 trillion.

Though these is wildly unreliable given the constant influx of pilgrims which make up a great deal of the population.

Actually, if we were to take even New York City's population density (27,532/sq mi), and cover a mass the size of the United States alone (3,536,294 sq mi), we'd end up with 97,361,246,408 people, or at least room for them. And that's not even taking into consideration that for a hive world, you have several vertical miles of hive (I can't factor this in because I don't know an average height to the structures in New York City, if I had to guess I'd probably say around a quarter of a mile). Considering this, I'd say it's safe to say that 40k's Terra would actually have hundreds of trillions at the very least, considering it's described as having its entire surface covered in one giant hive.

So really, either all these "ridiculously high" population figures for hive worlds are yet another example of Sci-fi Writers Have No Sense of Scale, or Hives are actually less dense than your average suburb.

If the Imperium could arm and train even 1% of its population, it would outnumber the tyranids' infantry a hundred to one...

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Actually, if we were to take even New York City's population density (27,532/sq mi), and cover a mass the size of the United States alone (3,536,294 sq mi), we'd end up with 97,361,246,408 people, or at least room for them. And that's not even taking into consideration that for a hive world, you have several vertical miles of hive (I can't factor this in because I don't know an average height to the structures in New York City, if I had to guess I'd probably say around a quarter of a mile). Considering this, I'd say it's safe to say that 40k's Terra would actually have hundreds of trillions at the very least, considering it's described as having its entire surface covered in one giant hive.

So really, either all these "ridiculously high" population figures for hive worlds are yet another example of Sci-fi Writers Have No Sense of Scale, or Hives are actually less dense than your average suburb.

If the Imperium could arm and train even 1% of its population, it would outnumber the tyranids' infantry a hundred to one...

You have NY population density a little too high, by a factor of 10. NY metro is ~2800/sq mile. The 27,000 figure only applies to a small section of the overall city. (If you want a really dense figure, Manhattan comes to 70,000).

Keep in mind you can't cover the entire surface of the planet with hives, you have to give most of the planet over to producing oxygen (which is really the only reason to ever set foot on a planet once you have space travel).

Retribution wrote:Kryptmann said that the IoM needs to increase recruitment by 500% thereby inducting every man, woman, and child into the Guard...except an increase of 500% simply means that instead of taking the top 10% of the PDF, the guard would take 50%...and again writers have no sense of scale <_<

Clearly he made a mistake, even he don't know how many Tyranids there are. Maybe these fleets that invadwe our galaxy is all of Tyranid race, maybe not. But to put every man, woman and child into Guard - that's impossible. Unless you intend to arm them with rocks
Imperium has millions of worlds, every world around 4 - 50, even 500 billion Humans. Try to make Lasgun for all of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requia wrote:
Keep in mind you can't cover the entire surface of the planet with hives, you have to give most of the planet over to producing oxygen (which is really the only reason to ever set foot on a planet once you have space travel).

Terra is entirely covered in Hive cities. The great oceans of Earth disappear long ago, I imagine that they recycle what little of water has left beneath the surface and import food from nearby agri-worlds. And IoM have Terraforming technology, so it's not strange that they can produce enough oxygen for all inhabitants.

8.4 million people in an area of 305 square miles works out to 27,540 per square mile. Even if we use the lower densities you list it still comes out to over a thousand times the current population of the Earth. Besides, this is just a rough estimate for the purposes of showing just how many people would be able to live in a hive that covered only 6% of the surface of the land on Earth (1.8% of the surface area of the planet as a whole...). Remember too that hives are miles high, and extend a good deal below the ground as well in most cases...

Keep in mind that the Imperium also has ships that spend hundreds or thousands of years in the void, never taking in more oxygen. Surely they have machines that can do the job of recycling air?


Edit: wait, no, that's not right. It comes out to several billion more than the current population of the Earth, on 6% of its landmass, not a thousand times. I wasn't paying close enough attention to the number of digits. Working backwards from the provided 32 trillion figure, we can gather that the population density is probably something on the order of 63,000 per square kilometer, with an unknown height. Armageddon's several hundred billion figure makes a whole lot more sense now, rather than seeming quite low...

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:8.4 million people in an area of 305 square miles works out to 27,540 per square mile. Even if we use the lower densities you list it still comes out to over a thousand times the current population of the Earth. Besides, this is just a rough estimate for the purposes of showing just how many people would be able to live in a hive that covered only 6% of the surface of the land on Earth (1.8% of the surface area of the planet as a whole...). Remember too that hives are miles high, and extend a good deal below the ground as well in most cases...

Keep in mind that the Imperium also has ships that spend hundreds or thousands of years in the void, never taking in more oxygen. Surely they have machines that can do the job of recycling air?

And remember that they live in 41'st millennium. We are in 3'rd millennial (at the beginning to add). Ordinary man from year 1000 have no way to know where the civilization will go in the year 2000. The same man from 2000 cannot know where the civilization will go in year 3000. We cannot know where civilization will go in year 40000. I am sure we will evolve much much more than today - world has changed a lot in last 20 years. Imagine in 200 years, or even 2000....
The things that we cannot do in this time - maybe we will do in the future.

Brother Coa wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:8.4 million people in an area of 305 square miles works out to 27,540 per square mile. Even if we use the lower densities you list it still comes out to over a thousand times the current population of the Earth. Besides, this is just a rough estimate for the purposes of showing just how many people would be able to live in a hive that covered only 6% of the surface of the land on Earth (1.8% of the surface area of the planet as a whole...). Remember too that hives are miles high, and extend a good deal below the ground as well in most cases...

Keep in mind that the Imperium also has ships that spend hundreds or thousands of years in the void, never taking in more oxygen. Surely they have machines that can do the job of recycling air?

And remember that they live in 41'st millennium. We are in 2'nd millennial (at the beginning to add). Ordinary man from year 1000 have no way to know where the civilization will go in the year 2000. The same man from 2000 cannot know where the civilization will go in year 3000. We cannot know where civilization will go in year 40000. I am sure we will evolve much much more than today - world has changed a lot in last 20 years. Imagine in 200 years, or even 2000....
The things that we cannot do in this time - maybe we will do in the future.

We're in the third millennium (0-999 is the first, 1000-1999 is the second, 2000-2999 is the third, and so on), and what? I don't understand what you're responding to there.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
We're in the third millennium (0-999 is the first, 1000-1999 is the second, 2000-2999 is the third, and so on), and what? I don't understand what you're responding to there.

My respond to: why do you think it's impossible to house trillions on Earth? Or sustain that many population with no natural water or food supplies?

I don't. I was arguing that it was possible. After running the numbers again, however, it would give a population density of 67,000 per square kilometer, even for a hive that covered the entire surface of the Earth. I don't know how thick the layer of buildings is, so I can't really comment on whether or not that's actually feasible. In the lower trillions, however, I think it's quite possible for a particularly large hive, and in the case of the stated figures of several hundred billion for Armageddon quite reasonable.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:I don't. I was arguing that it was possible. After running the numbers again, however, it would give a population density of 67,000 per square kilometer, even for a hive that covered the entire surface of the Earth. I don't know how thick the layer of buildings is, so I can't really comment on whether or not that's actually feasible. In the lower trillions, however, I think it's quite possible for a particularly large hive, and in the case of the stated figures of several hundred billion for Armageddon quite reasonable.

Well for reference the Imperial palace is NOT the highest building on Terra. And it lies on the top of Himalayas. So hives on Terra are EXTREMELY big.

Bjorn_Stormwolf02 wrote:I would say based on the evidence seen so far the other galaxies couldn't have put up nearly as much resistence as the races occupying the milky way are. Reason the hive mind is supposedly an all remembering entity that memorizes past foes and strategies. The initial tactics that the Imperium used at Macragge completely caught them of guard, relatively simple hit and run tactics allowed the tau to defeat a hive fleet (a small one but still a hive fleet nonetheless) and the orks of octarius have been holding the tyranids at bay in an indefinite stalemate. This suggests that the hive fleets opposition to this point has been either:
A) signifigantly less numerous
B) far less intelligent and advanced
C) scattered, isolated or otherwise unable to unite against the common threat they faced.

I'd say its probably a combination of all these things. I would say that they have never faced a race as numerous, tenacious, indomitable and warlike as the orks and have never faced an organization or empire as vast and cohesive as the imperium. The very fact that the hive fleet is learning and adapting to relatively simple stratagies suggest that it is highly unlikely any other galaxy has put up signifigant resistance until now.

My take on the tyranids:

The individual races of the galaxy have been able to hold them at bay for a long time. However, there is evidence to suggest that the real tyranid threat is too great to hold off forever, even if the Imperium forged an alliance with the Eldar and the Tau. The tyranids are a force too great to defeat militarily, but they do have one weakness: the hive mind.

The hive-mind is a powerful psychic entity, it communicates with the hive fleets via psychic synapses directed at individual Tyranid organisms. much like a brain this is a multi-tier communication. hive mind to hive fleet, hive fleet to ship, ship to hive tyrant, and so forth. like any communication signal, it can sent both ways, tapped, and even jammed.

What happens when you plug a pariah in? what happens when you overload the circuits using, say, the astronomicon's power or the infinity circuit.

new tactics have worked up to this point, but the tyranids will adapt. psychic warfare is the way to go.

just my 20,000x2 cents

To see how well the Imperium is doing against Leviathan, just look at the map notes in the codex. They're making big stands on planets, inflicting terrible damage to the ground forces of the Tyranids before retreating.

That does nothing but lose the Imperium soldiers. As soon as they retreat, the Tyranids reclaim the dead from both sides and the planet.

It also mentions Eldar are fighting them back by employing age old weapons that completely destroy planets in an effort to deny them biomass. Great work there.

As for jamming the hive mind - the hive mind jams everything else, not the other way around. There's no one node to plug into with the hive mind - it is the Tyranid race in its entirety. The synapse creatures just have a better link into it. To stop the hive mind, you have to kill every single Tyranid.

-Loki- wrote: To stop the hive mind, you have to kill every single Tyranid.

No problem, where is my Lasgun?