Just list the 3 in units you reckon are the most OP in the entirety of NON-Apocalypse 40k. Preferably in Decending Order of Cheesiness

Mine are

Mephiston
Eldrad
Soulgrinder

Of all the units ive played against these are the worst (in terms of Power over Points)

Daemon Princes have a pretty big lead on everything else.

Thunderwolf calvary
Eldrad
Ig in general

Zid wrote:Thunderwolf calvary
Eldrad
Ig in general

Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf mount /w SS and Saga of the Bear is absurdly powerful and FAST.

Zid wrote:Thunderwolf calvary
Eldrad
Ig in general

What about Ogryn, Stormtroopers, Bastonne, Pask, Penal Legion, Armored Sentinels, Priests and TechPriests?

Although i agree they can do some horrible stuff

Well.. Mine is the following with reasons

1 - Wraithlords
There is nothing i hate more than a eldar player fielding 3 Wraithlords... Insane T and abusive S can easily crush anything they touch.

2 - Incubi
Power Armor Dark Eldar with extra S power weapons, with the ability to gain a boatload of USRs? If it wasn't for their low T they would had been no.1.

3 - Abbadon
Yes... Everybody fears him... And for good reasons. For his points.. You get a demi-god of close combat with the ability to gain more than +10 attacks at high S and a large amount of durability.

Superscope wrote:Well.. Mine is the following with reasons

1 - Wraithlords
There is nothing i hate more than a eldar player fielding 3 Wraithlords... Insane T and abusive S can easily crush anything they touch.

2 - Incubi
Power Armor Dark Eldar with extra S power weapons, with the ability to gain a boatload of USRs? If it wasn't for their low T they would had been no.1.

3 - Abbadon
Yes... Everybody fears him... And for good reasons. For his points.. You get a demi-god of close combat with the ability to gain more than +10 attacks at high S and a large amount of durability.

I agree with the first two, but I've seen Abbadon punch himself in the face too many times to consider him OP.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Kharn yet. For his points, he is a complete beast.

Mephiston

Thunderwolf Cavalry (and variations thereof)

Valkyrie

1. Mephiston
on boxing day my LGS held this game called 'The Boxing Day Boxing Match'
Only single model units could be used. Mephiston won 10+ rounds before being taken out by Logan (who was taken out by eldrad, who was taken out by mephiston)

2. Fabius Bile
First of all, 6 (7 on the charge) str 5 instant death causing attack is just OP in my opinion, he would be first if the were power weapon attacks, though. He has FNP An assualt 3 poisoned 2+ gun, and can turn CSM units into fearless beasts with either +1 or 2 strength at the cost of 3pts per model

3. Lucius the Eternal
For each any save he passes in close combat, the enemy gets hit with a str 4 hit that ignores amour saves
Not only that, but he can get rid of 1 of the attacks of each enemy in base contact with him. And an I6 power weapon with 4 attacks (5 on the charge(remember, hes has a combat weapon and power weapon)) is nothing to laugh at...


There, thats what think (wow! one BA and 2 CSMs)

M.K

Thunderwolf Cavalry
-I actually had someone at the club I go to while at University try to claim that they were a balanced unit.
With the crazy amount of raw power they provide, and the wound-allocation shenanigans that were once a hallmark of Nobz, they take everything that everyone else does, and do it better. It's absurd.

Longfangs
-Yeah. Once again, absurd.

I don't really have anything that just jumps out at me after those two. I mean, the Swarm Lord scares the gak out of me, but I think he's also a fairly balanced character concerning point cost and mobility. Paroxism (probably spelling that wrong) makes me quiver in my boots, but then again, I guess that's what it's for.
Mephiston is in the same league, but his lack of an invulnerable save and inability to join a unit make him far a controllable threat.

There's a lot of horribly balanced stuff out there, but none of it really jumps out like TWC and Longfangs do.

Its funny some of the different opinions people have, i've heard plenty of people say Wraithlords are rubbish

Anyway:

Hydras.... I didn't realise they had a Heavy Bolter on top of there Autocannons, and i already thought they were really good

Mephiston..... I didn't think he was that good, but after seeing him in action a couple of times, he really really is.

Third is hard, it could be Long Fangs, TWC, Eldrad etc.... But from my personal experiances

Abaddon.... I used to use him a lot (was probably my most consistent part of my list, i was always changing it) And although he can hit himself (never happened that often...) he can just wipe units away on his own, and when you put a unit with him, you essentially have two uber units of death

My 3 that get me in an angry hate knot.

1. Ork Nobz and Painboy on Bikes - Nigh UNKILLABLE, UNKILLABLE!!! Talk of successful rerolled +4 saves up one's rear end against everything

2. Pre-FAQ Doom of Malan'tai - This thing made me see my nightmare. I saw whole squads dieing on my turn only to move them to be killed on the next

3.Podding Dreadnoughts - 1st turn assaults and having situations that needed useless units as bubble wrap make me a sad panda

ChiliPowderKeg wrote:1. Ork Nobz and Painboy on Bikes - Nigh UNKILLABLE, UNKILLABLE!!! Talk of successful rerolled +4 saves up one's rear end against everything

2. Pre-FAQ Doom of Malan'tai - This thing made me see my nightmare. I saw whole squads dieing on my turn only to move them to be killed on the next

I agree with these two. Especially when the Doom comes in via mycetic spore and the bugger is cheap as chips.

As a third I'd also add in Combined IG squads with Heavy Weapons (lascannons especially). Stick them with a commissar and put them in cover you will find NOTHING that can move them. (Aside from maybe a Dreadnought that assualts right after deepstriking... )

Some good contenders so far. Mine would be:

1 - Sanguinary Priests (6" apothecarys,wtf?)

2 - Bjorn.....

3 - Death Company Dreadnoughts (with blood claws)

1) Long Fangs. They're not really overpower, just dramatically undercosted (see SM devs released prior, and BA devs released after, for evidence that GW recognizes that). They also can take five heavies instead of four, have more rules, and base LD9. Combine that with the Meta killer aspect of that much S8 shooting, and you've got the best unit in 40k right now.

2) Vendetta. #2 only because of how thoroughly #1 owns it. Dirt cheap for three accurate mobile lascanons. plus cargo. Plus scout. Plus a 4+ cover on turn 1 thanks to the FAQ.

3) SM Assault Termies (with TH/SS). Only this low because they are spendy and require transport. The answer to nearly every killer unit mentioned in this thread (Nobs/Nob bikers, Mephiston, Wraithlords, etc)

1) Vendettas... need i say more?
2) Long Fangs, 150 points for 4-5 missles. YAY
3) Sanguinary Priests, 6" bubble of doom

Pretty much half the SW book. How come that the SW get counter-attack and acute senses, and yet cost only as much as (in some cases *coughLongFangscough* LESS than) their vanilla counterparts, the exception being their terminators?

And then there's the Thunderwolf Cavalry. The bane of everything in their quite large assault range.

Eldrad might be REALLY good for his points, but he isn't OP. The success of Eldrad, and indeed the entire Eldar army, depends on being at the right place at the right time, something YOU should make sure that the enemy can't do. Sure, sometimes gak hits the fan and they do get that golden opportunity, but that happens to everyone!

Special award of annoyance goes to the Sanguinor who, while not OP, is incredible annoying to get rid of when played correctly and is such a force multiplier that a BA army with him in it can go from hard to beat to "why bother?" in one turn.

1) Vendetta

2) Veteran Squads

3) Rune Priests

Nulipuli2 wrote:1) Vendettas... need i say more?
2) Long Fangs, 150 points for 4-5 missles. YAY
3) Sanguinary Priests, 6" bubble of doom

140 points for 6 men, 5 missiles :S

Everyone loses...because for the points...no one mentioned........

MARLBORO!!!!

Mephiston and Abaddon are both over 200 points...Marlboro is only what....55? I would take 4 Marlboro's over Mephiston or Abaddon any day of the week.

Shenra wrote:Everyone loses...because for the points...no one mentioned........

MARLBORO!!!!

Mephiston and Abaddon are both over 200 points...Marlboro is only what....55? I would take 4 Marlboro's over Mephiston or Abaddon any day of the week.

The only use Marbo has is that he's a demo pack delivery system... That's about it.... He comes with tons more.... If he can survive the painful retalition that comes his way.

Shenra wrote:Everyone loses...because for the points...no one mentioned........

MARLBORO!!!!

Mephiston and Abaddon are both over 200 points...Marlboro is only what....55? I would take 4 Marlboro's over Mephiston or Abaddon any day of the week.

That's Marbo! Marlboros will kill you too, only not quite as fast

I'd say mine:
1. Vendetta gunships - for thirty points more than a standard Valkyrie, they're completely ludicrous. I don't see how 3 twin linked lascannons is 30 points.

2. I still think Lash of Submission is the dirtiest and least sportsmanlike power in the game. Although it gets nullified by mechanized armies, I've had my company command squad pulled 12" out from my line and assaulted on turn 1 by a Slaanesh prince.

3. Long Fangs for the points cost are shockingly good. I wouldn't exactly say overpowered, but they're undercosted.

Honestly I'm surprised at some of the units that I see on peoples lists.

Wraithlords aren't scary at all. If you don't have S8 AP3 shooting to handle them, then how do handle tanks? They are rubbish in assault and slow to get their.
Daemon prices, well some builds are pretty scary, none of the Chaos daemons ones are that bad, and the lash and warptime princes are kinda 4th ed in terms of quality...
Soul grinders... If you can't handl AV 13 huge models at range then you should probably rethink your list.
Long fang, at the end of the day the are just dev squads with an extra heavy weapon slot and the ability to split fire (something that tau does too, but with rail guns)
Vendettas, they are AV 12. If you can't take out that, and don't prioritize it, you deserve the damage it does to you.

What I consider overpowered?
1. Nobs (biker and regular) and thunder wolfs. I put them in the same category since they pretty close to the same purpose and pull the same tricks (though Twolves are in a better army) Sure they soak a bunch of points, but they are really hard to kill and can do immense damage. That being said, if you can't manage to kill them, you probably need to rethink your list.
2. Null zone librarians. Really. Not a single better force multiplier out there for its points. Gives you defense against enemy powers, and allows your TH/SS termies to take out anything, including units with hard invul saves. Null zone is sometimes a dead power in some match-ups, but when you need it is is amazing, and when you don't, there is a second power to use.
3. Post FAQ Death wing. TH/SS termies that can get FNP, count as troops, AND have a cyclone missile launcher? Remains to be seen if it is actually OP, or if the rest of the army fall down too hard to be good.

I don't include special character in my list because A: they usually suck for their points, B: most of them are beat stick characters, who aren't usually a good investment. C: the utility special characters either have sucky powers, or cost too much (though Eldrad is pretty cheap for what he does, still wouldn't pay for him) D: if they don't cost too much, or don't have sucky powers, they aren't actually that abusive (though the Baron is close...)

notabot187 wrote:Honestly I'm surprised at some of the units that I see on peoples lists.
Long fang, at the end of the day the are just dev squads with an extra heavy weapon slot and the ability to split fire (something that tau does too, but with rail guns)
Vendettas, they are AV 12. If you can't take out that, and don't prioritize it, you deserve the damage it does to you.

These two aren't their for there power (at least on my list) as much as they are there for how cheap they are. Also, the Vendetta can outflank and get lascannons on your side armor at any point in the game. AV12 isn't particularly hard to destroy, but it's a potent tank hunter that can appear just about anywhere. Long Fangs are just really cheap for a solid anti tank unit.

Long fangs aren't that much cheaper. For 140 points you get 6 bodies and 5 MLs.

Regular marines for 150 get 5 bodies and 4 MLs

BA get 5 bodies and 4 MLs for 130.

1 extra ML + body for a 10 point difference isn't OP, it is a good deal for SW players, but its not broken.

So it has a mid game ability to mess with you. It gets once shot, and it should die after that. Other armies get similar capabilities, though not quite as cheap, or not as effective. Doesn't make it OP IMHO.

Marbo is rubbish


Well not rubbish, he can/should make his points back, but thats probably about it....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

notabot187 wrote:Long fangs aren't that much cheaper. For 140 points you get 6 bodies and 5 MLs.

Regular marines for 150 get 5 bodies and 4 MLs

BA get 5 bodies and 4 MLs for 130.

1 extra ML + body for a 10 point difference isn't OP, it is a good deal for SW players, but its not broken.

So it has a mid game ability to mess with you. It gets once shot, and it should die after that. Other armies get similar capabilities, though not quite as cheap, or not as effective. Doesn't make it OP IMHO.

*Split fire, counter attack and acute senses.....

rodgers37 wrote:Marbo is rubbish


Well not rubbish, he can/should make his points back, but thats probably about it....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

notabot187 wrote:Long fangs aren't that much cheaper. For 140 points you get 6 bodies and 5 MLs.

Regular marines for 150 get 5 bodies and 4 MLs

BA get 5 bodies and 4 MLs for 130.

1 extra ML + body for a 10 point difference isn't OP, it is a good deal for SW players, but its not broken.

So it has a mid game ability to mess with you. It gets once shot, and it should die after that. Other armies get similar capabilities, though not quite as cheap, or not as effective. Doesn't make it OP IMHO.

*Split fire, counter attack and acute senses.....

Counter attack is decent, but all wolves get it, and it is a CC ability in a back board edge squad. Split fire is useful, but honestly I don't see it used as often as people seem to claim (target priority and odds makes more sense to fire all at one target most of the time). Acute senses... for one turn in 1/3 missions it MIGHT be useful.

notabot187 wrote:Long fangs aren't that much cheaper. For 140 points you get 6 bodies and 5 MLs.

Regular marines for 150 get 5 bodies and 4 MLs

BA get 5 bodies and 4 MLs for 130.

1 extra ML + body for a 10 point difference isn't OP, it is a good deal for SW players, but its not broken.

So it has a mid game ability to mess with you. It gets once shot, and it should die after that. Other armies get similar capabilities, though not quite as cheap, or not as effective. Doesn't make it OP IMHO.

Even compared to BA, which get a very nice discount over basic SM, the wolves pay 10 more points to get: +1 body, +1 ML, Acute senses, LD 9 across the unit, and split fire. They also lose the signum (+1 BS to one model a turn). BA devs also have strong competition for the heavy support slots in dreadnoughts and fast predators.

It's certainly meta-game changing. Split fire and 5 MLs per squad mean you can split 15 shots over 6 targets. That can really shut down mechanized lists. It's not ridiculously over the top (because nothing in modern 40k is that dramatically OP), but when an army can spend 420pts and outshoot most armies... that's a very nice unit.

Why even post anything when clearly the most powerful warrior in all of 40k is clearly Marneus Calgar?

Mukkin'About wrote:Why even post anything when clearly the most powerful warrior in all of 40k is clearly Marneus Calgar?

Because he's as expensive as a Land Raider?

I think you're missing the joke here

1. Overlord Vecht is currently my least favorite model in the game for two reasons. First, he grants his darklance toting army a 3+ to seize the initiative, which I find completely stupid. Second, he gets 7 PW attacks without even needing to charge at an initiative of 8, which is enough to crush just about everything I can throw at him as a CSM player. Oh and third.. WTF 2+ INVUL SAVE? WTFWTF?

2. I really hate Vendettas. Yes, you can kill them. But for 130 pts I don't know if there is a better value in the game. Scout moving AV 12 fast skimmer with transport and 3 TL-Lascannons? Really?

3. Njal the Stormcaller, and runepriests in general, for two reasons. One is the very lame Living Lightning omfgwtfbbq infinite range Str 7 bombardment of doom. The second is the 3+ / 4+ "sorry about that spell of yours". This actually helped me decide to build an Eldar force so I could make these pricks take 3d6 on powers.

"Overpowered" has to be looked at in terms of cost and supporting units. Mephiston, IMO, doesn't count because he can't join units, is easily picked off, and has crappy synergy. He's also insanely expensive.

Overpowered in terms of cost, supporting units, and everything else in the dex?

1. Killa Kanz. Didn't expect that huh? They're FAR too cheap for an 11/11/10 vehicle with a S10 power klaw, and the synergy you get with a KFF. They need to be 10/10/10 and S4, so the Klaw makes them S8, OR significantly more expensive.

2. Long Fangs. Significantly undercosted.

3. Fate Points. Get the feth out of here with all of that crap. Nobody knows how they work except people who play Sisters.

Boneblade wrote:1. Overlord Vecht is currently my least favorite model in the game for two reasons. First, he grants his darklance toting army a 3+ to seize the initiative, which I find completely stupid. Second, he gets 7 PW attacks without even needing to charge at an initiative of 8, which is enough to crush just about everything I can throw at him as a CSM player. Oh and third.. WTF 2+ INVUL SAVE? WTFWTF?

He seizes on a 4+, not a 3. He has 5A base, with +1 for two CC weapons, so 6, 7 *if* charging. His 2++ save goes away once he fails the first wound. He's also T3 without Eternal Warrior.

With his init, WS and PW, on a charge with 7 attacks, on average he will put out about as many wounds on T3/4 models as a Khornate Daemon Prince. He's not that scary.


My list:

There's so many to choose from, from TH/SS termi's, to Long Fangs, to Grey Hunters, to Doom, Vendettas, Vulkan, Nob Bikers, TWC's, Rune Priests/Njal, Lysander, Mephiston, Sanguinary Priests, Blood Talon Dreads, Hydras, Baal Preds (not so much in and of themselves, but Scout coupled with being Fast Attack allowing BA armies to field ridiculous amounts of highly mobile AV13 heavy armor), etc... It's hard to narrow it to three.

My vote goes for swarmlord, horrific overall killer and army buffer.

Polonius wrote:

notabot187 wrote:Long fangs aren't that much cheaper. For 140 points you get 6 bodies and 5 MLs.

Regular marines for 150 get 5 bodies and 4 MLs

BA get 5 bodies and 4 MLs for 130.

1 extra ML + body for a 10 point difference isn't OP, it is a good deal for SW players, but its not broken.

So it has a mid game ability to mess with you. It gets once shot, and it should die after that. Other armies get similar capabilities, though not quite as cheap, or not as effective. Doesn't make it OP IMHO.

Even compared to BA, which get a very nice discount over basic SM, the wolves pay 10 more points to get: +1 body, +1 ML, Acute senses, LD 9 across the unit, and split fire. They also lose the signum (+1 BS to one model a turn). BA devs also have strong competition for the heavy support slots in dreadnoughts and fast predators.

It's certainly meta-game changing. Split fire and 5 MLs per squad mean you can split 15 shots over 6 targets. That can really shut down mechanized lists. It's not ridiculously over the top (because nothing in modern 40k is that dramatically OP), but when an army can spend 420pts and outshoot most armies... that's a very nice unit.

Sorry Bro, you got the math wrong; Long fangs are 10 points Less expensive for an additional Body, ML, AS, and split fire; and only losing Combat tactics, and Signum. Acute senses could be analogous with combat tactics(sure they cannot choose to just flee and not get assaulted, but they can reach out and touch someone better in night-fights). Split fire could be seen as a fair replacement of the signum. You still get the extra marine and Missile launcher for less than the "same" squad of 'nilla devs.

So i would say on my list Long Fangs are pretty OP(and I play SWs)

Next would be rune priests, regular libys have a straight d6 contest to negate most powers(and the casting psyker wins on a tie), Rune priest do it fully 50% of the time, then add in the Wolf tail that many units will have that get a further 33% chance to negate the power and you enter into the real of ridiculous. On top of all that you get powers like Jaws.

Finally I agree with the Death co dread with duel Blood claws(infinite attacks, sucks).

These are in no particular order btw.

There are others that can be pretty OP but not on their own(as with the case of the rune priest); but to OP-ness is that when combined with another squad or two they get nasty.

Long Fangs are 10pts less than SM devs, but 10pts more than BA devs.

I have a few things to put in myself. Again, I think too many people are looking at this in terms of POWER/MODELS vs POWER/POINTS. Example would be Mephiston, VERY strong for a single model, but costs a lot of points, and all you need is some plasma and something to bait him to come out of cover. Good, but not godly.

Also, I think that you need to include dedicated transports and the rest of the army list as well, as Broadsides are great, but are kinda let down by the rest of the codex. As such, I am picking just one unit from any given codex, and including other units in my opinion of that unit.

My picks are thus.

1) Grey Hunters
The closest comparison to Grey Hunters is a Chaos Space marine. They have the same cost andthe same weapons, Bolter+BP+CCW.
1) you lose 1LD, but you gain Counter Attack, Acute Senses, and ATSNKF. The leadership loss is also offset by the ability to take a WGPL
2) CSM pay 30 pts to get a Champion with no equipment, and with a combi-weapon and a PF that price increases to 65! A WGPL with no equipment is 18 pts, and with combi-Fist is only 43 pts.
3) CSM pay 5/10/15 for both special weapons. Grey Hunters pay 0/5/10 for the first, and the second is free.
4) The Razorback- Essentially it is one of the best dedicated transports around. It increases the ranged firepower of the squad and adds mobility.
5) Long Fangs- With a Razorback, and Long Fangs supporting, you can mostly outshout anything AND still out fight most troops in close combat as well.
6) Wolf Standard- for 10pts you get to re-roll 1s in the assault phase. Being able to re-roll saves is a great ability and is VERY limited (only 3 units can do this, Farseer, Fateweaver and Grey Hunters). Plus you get to re-roll assault distance, Mark of the Wolfen attacks, to hit, to wound, consolidate distance... makes a decent close combat unit much better.

The best value for a troops unit in any book. It can shoot better than most, it can fight in combat better than most, and it is stupidly cheap!


2)Imperial Guard Veterans
1)You get the best value for money in terms of special weapon density. Most troop units can take 1 special/1 heavy per 10 people or maybe 1 special per 5 people. Veterans get 3 special/1 heavy, and if you want it a demo charge too.
2) with 3 specials(meltaguns), it is 100 pts and BS4
3) Chimera- Wow. 55 pts, and it comes with great guns. Muti-laser for light tanks/long range and a Heavy Flamer for close up. Also front AV 12 and 5 fire points. What more do you want?
4) Vendetta- 130 pts for a fast skimmer with more guns than a predator can take. Also it has scout and can carry people so you can nuke the front lines turn 1, or out flank and score and shoot from reserves.

Again a great troop option with very high damage potential for not many points. Toss in some great transport options and then it is backed up by strong Long range shooting from the rest of the codex.


3)Sanguinary Priest
I do not have much to say about this one as there is not much else to compare it too, and the benefits from it are not quite so tangible as it is a buffer not a fighter. Basically, the only reason you can run a non-mech BA list and not be laughed at is because of these guys. Add to it that you can stick them in a tank for added range to their aura, and they can make Terminators (TH/SS) so much harder to take out as well.


Honorable mention goes to Vulkan Hestan: the only reason people still use the Vanilla Marine book in tournaments.

In no particular order..
Doom of Malantai - 90pts for a potential multiple squad killer?!

Broodlord - A Sergeant equivalent that has a statline that rivals many HQ choices.

Space Wolves - Have crass options, and the strongest Psychic attack in the game.

This thread really shows some peoples varying - and sometimes absurd - definition of over-powered; many of the units listed so far aren't considered over-powered by most gaming circles and yet are criticised nonetheless?!

Anyways, for me, I don't think there are many OVERPOWERED units. There are many UNDERCOSTED units, but units that are ridiculously overpowered, as in they do way more than they should? My top 3 would be:

- Mephiston - Yes, he's a Psychic Master, yes he's an absolute beast, but no he shouldn't have statistics equal to a Daemon Prince, particularly not on a normal base.

- Thunderwolf Lords - 200+pts is not good, but for what they pack, it's ridiculous.

- TH/SS Termies - To go from 4++ in close combat to 3++ under all circumstances?! Not on, not on. Particularly for their cost.

- Honourable Mention - Sanguinary Priests - FNP and FC bubble is crazy, particularly if compared to normal Apothecaries.


As for UNDER COSTED? Well:
- Long Fangs
- Grey Hunters
- Wolf Guard
- Daemon Princes (CSM)
- Thunderwolf
- Vendetta's
- Veterans
- Chimeras
- Manticores
- Razorbacks
...

In a system with limited points, is being undercosted the only way to truely become over powered?

Monoliths- At 235pts, better armour and weapons+rules than a LR, yes please!!

Medusa- 36" Demolisher Cannon at 135pts, although low armour it is still crazy.

Skulltaker (any varient)- Character crusher, roughly 120pts standard. 5+ rending and ID (only IIRC).

I would probably pick SC's as generality. I understand what GW is doing but I just dont think you can balance things like SC's, especially now that we have them completely changing the FOC's and armies. the below being my most hated (although I understand that not all of the below change the FOC):

1) Vulkan
2) Shrike
3) Kantor
4) Rambo
5) Mephiston

The only model I've felt was unbalanced was logan grimnar, he killed all my MC in my Tyranid list.

Sin wrote:
Doom of Malantai - 90pts for a potential multiple squad killer?!

Unless you're in a vehicle. Or in cover. Or have anything Str 8 in your army. Then he's 90 points (edit: 135 points for an inferior-in-every-way-to-a-drop pod mycetic spore) and a Tyranid Elite slot for one turn of mild-to-no wounds and a quickly evaporating cloud of biomass.

Polonius wrote:In a system with limited points, is being undercosted the only way to truly become over powered?

OVERPOWERED would be a model that is far stronger than it should be compared to the fluff for it. Mephiston is a librarian (a strong one) but he has a stat line hat rivals a hive tyrant. There is more power in that model than there should be, even though you pay the points for it and he has weaknesses.

UNDERPRICED would be a model that does more than the points you pay for them, for example Grey Hunters. Not very strong individually, but you pay less points than other similar models.

That being said, I think that some people use these terms a bit interchangeably.



Also, I think people's opinions are biased by the army that they play.

As an Ork player, Rune Priests with JotWW are VERY annoying to me as Orks rely on hiding PK Nobs and Painboyz inside big tough to kill units. When you can cast a spell that can take out a bunch of boys on a 3+ AND any Nob on a 4+ AND your army has no Psyker defence, they can be very annoying. However, against Mechanized Eldar, JotWW is much less powerfull due to high I and vehicles.

I was suprised at the inclusion on Wraithlords, especially considering the new DE and their 4+ poison weapons all over the place, but I am sure that some lists have a lot of trouble dealing with them.

Mr Nobody wrote:The only model I've felt was unbalanced was logan grimnar, he killed all my MC in my Tyranid list.

That's odd. I flay him down in 1 turn with just a squad of warriors and immortals. I have yet to see what's so crazy about him

svendrex wrote:

Polonius wrote:In a system with limited points, is being undercosted the only way to truly become over powered?

OVERPOWERED would be a model that is far stronger than it should be compared to the fluff for it. Mephiston is a librarian (a strong one) but he has a stat line hat rivals a hive tyrant. There is more power in that model than there should be, even though you pay the points for it and he has weaknesses.

UNDERPRICED would be a model that does more than the points you pay for them, for example Grey Hunters. Not very strong individually, but you pay less points than other similar models.

That being said, I think that some people use these terms a bit interchangeably.

I'm noticing that as well. I think the only way you could consider anything in the Guard codex to be overpowered is in the under-priced sense (saying that as a guard player ). To me, that is the only way that fragile units with only moderate damage output like the Hydra or Vendetta really make the list.

phantommaster wrote:Monoliths- At 235pts, better armour and weapons+rules than a LR, yes please!!

A monolith doesn't have better armor, it just has a special rule about what bonuses can be applied.

It doesn't have better rules, it has different rules. A land raider is a transport that is also a tank. A monolith is a tank, and can move squads around a bit.

It certainly isn't overpowered, since to most people it is just an annoyance. It also eats up points in an army that needs bodies towards phase out. I don't think I could call anything in the necron book OP, the C'tan are close, but they are slow and don't usually do much more than scare away assaulting units.

In a vacuum, a monolith is great.

In a necron army, it is almost a liability. It limits your phase out limit, and there are some armies that can destroy the monolith with out too much trouble, most notably Tau.

If you only rely on Meltaguns for your anti-tank and you try to kill it, it can be very anoying, however you can just ignore it and phase the enemy out instead.

Mephiston. STR 6 T 6? INIT 7???? 5 WOUNDS!!!!??!?!? On a librarian are you F***ing kidding me?

scubasteve04 wrote:Mephiston. STR 6 T 6? INIT 7???? 5 WOUNDS!!!!??!?!? On a librarian are you F***ing kidding me?

Yeah, he is pretty good. Now I don't have the BA codex in front of me, but AB seems to tell me that he isn't an independent character. This is important...
He moves like infantry, can't join squads, needs to use a power to fly, has no invul, and costs 250 points.

Just consider him to be a greater daemon on a small base and armor instead of invul.

Fire up the plasma and lascannons, we have a target!

Kurgash wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:The only model I've felt was unbalanced was logan grimnar, he killed all my MC in my Tyranid list.

That's odd. I flay him down in 1 turn with just a squad of warriors and immortals. I have yet to see what's so crazy about him

He refuses to die, while my hive tyrant and its guard die in a single cc phase.

scubasteve04 wrote:Mephiston. STR 6 T 6? INIT 7???? 5 WOUNDS!!!!??!?!? On a librarian are you F***ing kidding me?

He's not an IC, has no invul, and has to do a psyker test to fly. He's basically a Flyrant/Wing Daemon Prince.

Amaya wrote:

scubasteve04 wrote:Mephiston. STR 6 T 6? INIT 7???? 5 WOUNDS!!!!??!?!? On a librarian are you F***ing kidding me?

He's not an IC, has no invul, and has to do a psyker test to fly. He's basically a Flyrant/Wing Daemon Prince.

He doesnt need an invul. He has T6, 2+ save with FIVE wounds for feth sakes. Plus hes a tiny little infantry dude, so a 4+ cover save is not hard to obtain. Did I mention he has 7 attacks on the charge, WS 7 reroll to hit str 10? And he flies ANd is fleet? Plus hes even got a hood. He is leagues ahead of Flyrants/ DPs

scubasteve04 wrote:

Amaya wrote:

scubasteve04 wrote:Mephiston. STR 6 T 6? INIT 7???? 5 WOUNDS!!!!??!?!? On a librarian are you F***ing kidding me?

He's not an IC, has no invul, and has to do a psyker test to fly. He's basically a Flyrant/Wing Daemon Prince.

He doesnt need an invul. He has T6, 2+ save with FIVE wounds for feth sakes. Plus hes a tiny little infantry dude, so a 4+ cover save is not hard to obtain. Did I mention he has 7 attacks on the charge, WS 7 reroll to hit str 10? And he flies ANd is fleet? Plus hes even got a hood. He is leagues ahead of Flyrants/ DPs

Do you know what plasma and melta guns are? It's not all that hard to punch through 2+ saves. He's better than a Flyrant point for point, if you only look at melee capabilites, but I would take two DPs over Mephiston any day of the week.

svendrex wrote:
OVERPOWERED would be a model that is far stronger than it should be compared to the fluff for it. Mephiston is a librarian (a strong one) but he has a stat line hat rivals a hive tyrant. There is more power in that model than there should be, even though you pay the points for it and he has weaknesses.

Well, by that definition wouldn't Mephiston be under powered? It says in the codex that he ripped apart a Carnifex with his bare hands. So he shouldn't even have a force weapon. All of his attacks should just be ID.

Not really any order here but the ones that came into my head at first:

-The swarmlord: Yes im a nid player but i've faced it many times and it literally can kill anything, and often kill anything with each one of it's attacks.

-Thunderwolf Cavalry: Many people have said this, they're cheap (for what you get) fast and deadly.

-Anything with MotW: Surprised no-one has already mentioned this, a5 pts for D6+1 rending attacks!?

There's a few other little things, like Jaws of the World Wolf, which is just too good, i've seen it kill 3 fexes in one shot.

I've seen a lot of people saying that long fangs are OP, i haven't actually faced them yet but my uncle has recently got a unit of devastators and converted them to long fangs with missile launchers....

And finally, a lot of people say that eldrad is OP, which i disagree with (hang on, im an eldar player...)

Dok wrote:

svendrex wrote:
OVERPOWERED would be a model that is far stronger than it should be compared to the fluff for it. Mephiston is a librarian (a strong one) but he has a stat line hat rivals a hive tyrant. There is more power in that model than there should be, even though you pay the points for it and he has weaknesses.

Well, by that definition wouldn't Mephiston be under powered? It says in the codex that he ripped apart a Carnifex with his bare hands. So he shouldn't even have a force weapon. All of his attacks should just be ID.

Mephiston isn't the only spess marine with rediculous feats of strength in his fluff (Clagar face-punching an Eldar Avatar. Yes, the Avatar is a the living embodiment of a god and was taken out by calgars right hook.) Mepheston had a building fall on him and escaped? Lysander broke out of imprisonment from an Iron warriors stronghold with his bare hands after being brutally tortured for weeks.

Both of these characters are still only T4 with 4 wounds. They went completely overboard with Mephistons stats. 5 Wounds, S6 T6, Init 7 are just slowed.

Thunderwolves.
Storm raven.
Imperial guard Blobs.

lol Stormraven is overpowered. A12 for 200+ points = squishy.

I think if you're talking about overpowered units based on fluff, you and I are having two seperate conversations.

Even if the fluff were consistent (which it ain't), than nearly all units are underpowered compared to their fluff.

1. TWC (I run them! )
2. Long Fangs (I run those too )
3. TH/SS Terminators w/ Vulkan (Got that as well! Notice a pattern here? )

Bloodclaw Dreads.

I run a green tide, and there is no cap on how many attacks it can grind out :C

Mine are:

Daemon Princes.

Avatars.

LONG FANGS. Holy gak, they're too good!

Ascalam wrote:Bloodclaw Dreads.

I run a green tide, and there is no cap on how many attacks it can grind out :C

Can't tell if you're joking or not, but there totally is a cap on that. The bonus attacks don't generate bonus attacks themselves so even perfect rolling can't do more than double the dread's attacks.

1:Thunder Wolf Cavalry: For 5 points more per model, this is a unit that overshadows Nob Bikers (who are already the most OP unit in the Ork codex). The only exception is that you can only take 5 TWC and one power weapon, and that's easily countered by a Wolf Lord.

2: Vendetta: If this didn't have a transport capacity I wouldn't complain, but it does, making it a massive force multiplier that can drop a unit on a objective then turn your important vehicle to slag.

3: TH/SS Assault Terminators: The toughest mofos in the universe for peanuts. Seriously, +3 inv saves should not exist for anyone who isn't a SC.

Perkustin wrote:
Imperial guard Blobs.

You're kidding me, right? Name something that CAN'T kill a bunch of T3 5+ armor save guys. If anything, you should be happy that now you can overrun 50 Guardsmen in one assault as opposed to 10. If not, flamers. Flamers flamers flamers.

Raxmei wrote:Can't tell if you're joking or not, but there totally is a cap on that. The bonus attacks don't generate bonus attacks themselves so even perfect rolling can't do more than double the dread's attacks.

no, the attacks will go on forever, as long as you have both claws. There is no cap, sorry.


One more Honorable Mention

THE KFF BIG MEK

Honestly it is the only reason that Ork still go to tournaments. It is one of the largest force multipliers for VERY little in terms of points. Both Wagon-spam and Kan Wall list rely on the KFF and those are the most common tournament lists for Orks.

All I got so far is the Hades Breaching Drill. 50 points for everything it does is AMAZING.

Platuan4th wrote:All I got so far is the Hades Breaching Drill. 50 points for everything it does is AMAZING.

Pop up, *maybe melta* something, die, then tell your opponent exactly when and where your T3 infantry are coming going coming in from reserves?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

ChiliPowderKeg wrote:1. Ork Nobz and Painboy on Bikes - Nigh UNKILLABLE, UNKILLABLE!!! Talk of successful rerolled +4 saves up one's rear end against everything

2. Pre-FAQ Doom of Malan'tai - This thing made me see my nightmare. I saw whole squads dieing on my turn only to move them to be killed on the next

I agree with these two. Especially when the Doom comes in via mycetic spore and the bugger is cheap as chips.

As a third I'd also add in Combined IG squads with Heavy Weapons (lascannons especially). Stick them with a commissar and put them in cover you will find NOTHING that can move them. (Aside from maybe a Dreadnought that assualts right after deepstriking... )

OR death company on the charge with a chaplain


Automatically Appended Next Post:

notabot187 wrote:Honestly I'm surprised at some of the units that I see on peoples lists.

Wraithlords aren't scary at all. If you don't have S8 AP3 shooting to handle them, then how do handle tanks? They are rubbish in assault and slow to get their.
Daemon prices, well some builds are pretty scary, none of the Chaos daemons ones are that bad, and the lash and warptime princes are kinda 4th ed in terms of quality...
Soul grinders... If you can't handl AV 13 huge models at range then you should probably rethink your list.
Long fang, at the end of the day the are just dev squads with an extra heavy weapon slot and the ability to split fire (something that tau does too, but with rail guns)
Vendettas, they are AV 12. If you can't take out that, and don't prioritize it, you deserve the damage it does to you.

What I consider overpowered?
1. Nobs (biker and regular) and thunder wolfs. I put them in the same category since they pretty close to the same purpose and pull the same tricks (though Twolves are in a better army) Sure they soak a bunch of points, but they are really hard to kill and can do immense damage. That being said, if you can't manage to kill them, you probably need to rethink your list.
2. Null zone librarians. Really. Not a single better force multiplier out there for its points. Gives you defense against enemy powers, and allows your TH/SS termies to take out anything, including units with hard invul saves. Null zone is sometimes a dead power in some match-ups, but when you need it is is amazing, and when you don't, there is a second power to use.
3. Post FAQ Death wing. TH/SS termies that can get FNP, count as troops, AND have a cyclone missile launcher? Remains to be seen if it is actually OP, or if the rest of the army fall down too hard to be good.

I don't include special character in my list because A: they usually suck for their points, B: most of them are beat stick characters, who aren't usually a good investment. C: the utility special characters either have sucky powers, or cost too much (though Eldrad is pretty cheap for what he does, still wouldn't pay for him) D: if they don't cost too much, or don't have sucky powers, they aren't actually that abusive (though the Baron is close...)

Both are incredibly hard to kill with tyranids at range. Although wraithlords aren't much trouble for stealers with sacs.

And do you really consider Mephiston crap for points?

And would you actually take a normal footseer over eldrad? She actually cheaper and can cast more spells and can redeploy the army and is more durable and has better weapons. And she is less points.

phantommaster wrote:Monoliths- At 235pts, better armour and weapons+rules than a LR, yes please!!

Medusa- 36" Demolisher Cannon at 135pts, although low armour it is still crazy.

Skulltaker (any varient)- Character crusher, roughly 120pts standard. 5+ rending and ID (only IIRC).

I'm surprised nobody said a Monolith before you: I totally agree!! They are OP. And Skulltaker is as well: the entire 'Nid book should fear him, as well as any multi-wound models that aren't eternal warriors. My list of three would be:

Monolith

Skulltaker

Thunderwolf Cavalry

Monolith is pretty solid. Give it a 6 BS and I'll call it over powered.

1) Mephiston
2) Obliterators
3) Long Fangs (undercosted points-wise + overcosted monetarily - seriously try to find a good deal on like 10 ML these days).

Oblits are still considered overpowered? At 75pts each, 150 for a single squad of 2, and 225 for a full squad (now into ultra kitted Leman Russ territory and nearly Land Raider area), I'd consider them merely "ok".

Vaktathi wrote:Oblits are still considered overpowered? At 75pts each, 150 for a single squad of 2, and 225 for a full squad (now into ultra kitted Leman Russ territory and nearly Land Raider area), I'd consider them merely "ok".

I play 9 of them way, way too often to not consider them over powered because they are so versatile. And my army has two options for guns strength 8+.

Vaktathi wrote:Oblits are still considered overpowered? At 75pts each, 150 for a single squad of 2, and 225 for a full squad (now into ultra kitted Leman Russ territory and nearly Land Raider area), I'd consider them merely "ok".

Their myriad of weapon options is what pushes them over. I wouldn't call them OP, just really good.

I think it's more a function of the rest of the CSM HS section being poor to mediocre than Oblits being Overpowered. I own 9, but I've never used more than 6 in a game (3 are still in Blisters). They are very versatile indeed, but don't put out the greatest volume of firepower and are relatively easy to remove.


Though if they were the old 3.5E T5 Elites Oblits I might agree

1) Freaking Vendettas! Too few points for so much. Sure, they are only AV12, and I'll certainly be able to shoot them when their LasCannons are twice the range of my Hiveguard, right? Right?

2) Nullzone Libbys. The AoE range is far to large and it's near impossible to kill them when playing against a canny opponent. Putting him in an LR in the middle of the battlefield makes me want to throw dice my opponent when I'm playing my Tz Daemons.

3) Manticores. So much firepower....

ChocolateGork wrote:

And do you really consider Mephiston crap for points?

And would you actually take a normal footseer over eldrad? She actually cheaper and can cast more spells and can redeploy the army and is more durable and has better weapons. And she is less points.

Well I did say usually.

I wouldn't take a farseer at all. I would take an autarch, screw the powers. The 1+1+1 thing eldar has is dumb. 1 unit, 1 transport, farseer to make it work. You can only have 2 farseers. So only 2 units that be effective or survive each turn? Eldar can do other things than be a farseer crutch army.

Perkustin wrote:Storm raven.
Imperial guard Blobs.

I laughed hard.
Storm raven - Lootas or any decent anti-tank that can handle AV12.
IG blobs - Furioso w/ blood talons, it won't stop until the board around it is red with blood and dead guardsman; and they won't even be able to fight back.

1. Grey Hunters - crazy good: goddamn s.

2. LRs - AV 14 all around is just too much for the orkses ; and the engine on the back is sticking out for feth's sake!

3. The most dangerest unit out there, just try to hide if you see them - Necron warriors. Lol.

Actually, the emperor titan is undercosted. 30 D pie plates for 4,000 points makes me want to .

1. Freaking Manticore. As a Tyranid player, I can't even stand to play against IG in general, because everything I love just gets facerolled off the table. I find IG to be just faceroll and slowed. "Hey, you have good stuff that requires finesse? I have templates. LOLSCREWED." /rage off.

2. Eldrad. Don't defend him, he's slowed.

3. I haven't encountered much else that I'd call OP, maybe Njal because he constantly takes away the things that I love.

To anyone reading this, don't take my frustrations too seriously, I've got a serious mouth on me, I'm not that much of a jerk.

Interestingly enough, I've had Genestealers, Dark Eldar Warriors in Raiders, Scourges, and Archons called OP on me. Is that new to anyone else?

The Fragile Breath wrote:1. Freaking Manticore. As a Tyranid player, I can't even stand to play against IG in general, because everything I love just gets facerolled off the table. I find IG to be just faceroll and slowed. "Hey, you have good stuff that requires finesse? I have templates. LOLSCREWED." /rage off.

2. Eldrad. Don't defend him, he's slowed.

3. I haven't encountered much else that I'd call OP, maybe Njal because he constantly takes away the things that I love.

To anyone reading this, don't take my frustrations too seriously, I've got a serious mouth on me, I'm not that much of a jerk.

Interestingly enough, I've had Genestealers, Dark Eldar Warriors in Raiders, Scourges, and Archons called OP on me. Is that new to anyone else?

The Dark Eldar I can see being called OP, since they're the new army and most people probably don't know how to fight against them . But Genestealers confuses me too.

Yeah, I heard Leaf Blower is hard to play.

1.) Mephistonian or however you spell it. The T6 was just too much... plus the 'Wings power' and fleet? come on...

2.) Lash Whips and Bone swords. Make you initiative 1, no matter what, and hit you back with power weapons that instant kill?!?!

3.) DE husk blade and soul trap. Instant kill anything then double your strenght?

4.) Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun.

Mephiston
Fateweaver
Swarmlord

Mr. DK wrote:1.) Mephistonian or however you spell it. The T6 was just too much... plus the 'Wings power' and fleet? come on...

2.) Lash Whips and Bone swords. Make you initiative 1, no matter what, and hit you back with power weapons that instant kill?!?!

3.) DE husk blade and soul trap. Instant kill anything then double your strenght?

4.) Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun.

Sorry sir, you are quite misinformed.

2: Bone swords only instant kill if you fail a leadership test. Now, depending, of course, but leadership tests aren't all that hard to pass.

3: Independent characters or monstrous creatures only, not just anything.

ChocolateGork wrote:

As a third I'd also add in Combined IG squads with Heavy Weapons (lascannons especially). Stick them with a commissar and put them in cover you will find NOTHING that can move them. (Aside from maybe a Dreadnought that assualts right after deepstriking... )

OR death company on the charge with a chaplain

They would never get close. And even if they did get the charge they would be bogged down in an unwinabble combat as the commissar makes the unit stubborn and re-rolls Ld 9 (which I have still managed to fail twice in a row ). Throw in power weapons to the sergeants and commissar and the Death Company are going to have a grim outlook.

The Fragile Breath wrote:

Mr. DK wrote:1.) Mephistonian or however you spell it. The T6 was just too much... plus the 'Wings power' and fleet? come on...

2.) Lash Whips and Bone swords. Make you initiative 1, no matter what, and hit you back with power weapons that instant kill?!?!

3.) DE husk blade and soul trap. Instant kill anything then double your strenght?

4.) Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun.

Sorry sir, you are quite misinformed.

2: Bone swords only instant kill if you fail a leadership test. Now, depending, of course, but leadership tests aren't all that hard to pass.

3: Independent characters or monstrous creatures only, not just anything.

Oh... thats what it is... Not that bad then, although Lash whips are still a pain for armies that rely on hitting first due to low T.

And about husk blades, its still a PW hitting at I7 i think? with 6 attacks on the charge.

At S3 . Makes all the difference in the world.

Mr. DK wrote:1.) Mephistonian or however you spell it. The T6 was just too much... plus the 'Wings power' and fleet? come on...

2.) Lash Whips and Bone swords. Make you initiative 1, no matter what, and hit you back with power weapons that instant kill?!?!

3.) DE husk blade and soul trap. Instant kill anything then double your strenght?

4.) Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun.

How is the Shokk Attack Gun OP. It's just as likely to blow up in your face or screw up in some other way. And it cost 60 pts and a HQ. How is that OP?

1. Thunderwolf Cavalry
2. Ork Nobz Bikers
3. Those new Tyranid weapons that strike first, have str6, rending, and ignore all saves, including invulns. I lost a tournament cause the kid had them on every genestealer in his army ( combine that with the fleet and scout moves....sheesh. Good bye Guard).

General Hobbs wrote:
3. Those new Tyranid weapons that strike first, have str6, rending, and ignore all saves, including invulns. I lost a tournament cause the kid had them on every genestealer in his army ( combine that with the fleet and scout moves....sheesh. Good bye Guard).

Ignores invos? I'm not sure I believe that.

There is nothing in the Tyranid codex that ignores invulnerable saves. There are a lot of things that ignore armor, but the only thing that I've heard of that ignores invuln is in the Necron codex (the C'tan). Someone clearly cheated.

Mephiston
Wraithlords
Abaddon

those 3 are the ones I see to be the biggest pain in the butt, maybe the new Dark eldar chick with a Truck load of extra attacks.

The Fragile Breath wrote:There is nothing in the Tyranid codex that ignores invulnerable saves. There are a lot of things that ignore armor, but the only thing that I've heard of that ignores invuln is in the Necron codex (the C'tan). Someone clearly cheated.

The callidus assassin has a C'tan phase sword, which is a power weapon which ignores invuls. The down side? Its on an assassin, and the weapon gets auto destroyed against real C'tan.

Space Marine scouts.

Everybody doubts them so much, they literally never die! Because no one bothers shooting at them! UNKILLABLE!

1. Nob Bikers: Good at everything, fast, hard to kill, possibly scoring, devastating in close combat, can easily multi-charge units and mangle them all. Expensive sure, but on the battlefield they have next to no real weaknesses except to armies specifically tooled to take them out. Abuse of wargear selection and the addition of a warboss to absorb S9/10 hits makes their defeat even harder.

2. Vendettas: Fast and scouting, devastating at range especially when able to flank tanks and hit side armour, able to carry scoring units or units with short-range weaponry (melta-vets) or both, able to keep away from melta weapons, reasonably cheap, able to take 9 of them. When I first saw this in the codex, I assumed it was a typo that they still had transport capacity. Anything with tanks in it will hate these. Anything with elite infantry will hate these. Hell, only an all-foot ork or tyranid list will not hate these.

3. Space Marine Librarians: Two reasons: Null Zone and the Psychic Hood. No other character, piece of wargear or psychic power in the game is able to utterly shaft a sub-set of armies quite like Null Zone. Anything that relies on invulnerable saves (Daemons in particular, but also TH/SS terminators and a few other units) is buggered by this. With so many psychic powers out there now, the psychic hood is also a no brainer take for SM armies. There's a reason Librarians are now the default HQ choice for codex marines (it used to be super-cheap Chaplains).

Honourable Mention: Hydras: Cheap, spammable, AV12, very high number of high-quality shots. With 4+ cover saves being banded around so easily, sometimes low-AP just doesn't cut it. That's when you get Hydras. Twin-Linked, High-S, 4 shots. If you're a monstrous creature, you're in for a world of pain. If you're a troop transport or skimmer, you'd better watch out. Hell, even terminators roll 1s 1/6 of the time.

Honourable Mention: Razorbacks and Immolators: Alone they're nothing, but they're cheap, spammable and able to mount dangerous weapons. If you can't deal with 10-15 AV11 hulls, they'll roll over you and if they target your anti-tank units first, you'll rapidly lose. If you do blow them up, there's often something angry inside.

Very good, but not overpowered:

Thunderwulfs (T5 with W2 isn't that much if you pour a reasonable amount of fire into them)
Long Fangs (Cheap and cheerful, with the two-target bonus, but still vulnerable like marines to dedicated CC units)
Grey Hunters (Do-it-all all-rounders. Possibly best Troops choice in the game, but then, when did troops ever get used for anything but scoring these days?)
Eldrad (Expensive and hood-able).
Incubi (Blow their transport as a priority, and then they die like marines out of cover. i.e. easily).
Doom of Malanti (Kill it quickly!)
Sanguinary Priests (ICs, target in close combat)
TH/SS Assault Terminators (Very expensive with LR delivery system. Prone to tricks of all sorts, especially psychic powers that slow them or make them run away. When in doubt, bulk plasma and melta shots still do them in).
Blood Crushers (Slow)
Fiends (Vulnerable to shooting on arrival)
IG Veterans (best special weapon-density this side of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, still die like guardsmen)
Twin Boneswords (if they were restricted to HQ choices, it wouldn't be a problem, but it's hard to keep your multi-W models away when they're everywhere)
KFF Big Mek (Very good for the points and if you can cover a bunch of battlewagons).


Now, here's what isn't overpowered and why:

Mephiston: Can't join units, no invulnerable save. This makes him weak to AP1/2 weapons and powerfists. You know, weapons you should be taking lots of anyway. Of course he's going to tear you a new one in CC, it's all he's good at. Don't let him, shoot him first. If he does get close, batter his face in with fists/claws/hammers. This applies for all other super-CC characters like the Swarmlord, Abaddon etc. They're good at one thing, and then you complain when you try and play the game on their terms?

Soulgrinder: Only vehicle in the codex. Every anti-tank weapon will be pointed at it. If it isn't dead turn 1, it's because it's lost all its weapons and is immobilised, and you can stop worrying about it.

Drop Pod Dreads: They cant assault the turn they land, so shoot them up. If you can't stop them, feed them something it'll take a while to chew through while you move other things away, ideally with a power fist in it somewhere. Sure, if you let it charge something which can't kill it, you're screwed. But again, it's a one trick pony, so stop playing its game. If it's got Blood Talons you might have a case.

Land Raiders: Very easy to kill with melta weapons. If you don't have melta weapons or similar, it's the fault of your codex, not the Land Raider.

Obliterators: Very expensive for what they do, uses up a HS slot, slow. Lots of shots, or AP2 weapons do them in. Would much rather have a Land Speeder for the points (faster, less prone to low-S weapons, duality with MM and HF).

Monoliths: Very hard to kill sure, but a huge chunk out of their army and not as killy as many suggest. Kill the necrons instead, and the whole thing phases out. I love facing a 2 or 3 monolith list.

Jaws of the World Wolf: Have you ever actually played with it? I have a SW list with 3 Rune priests in it, all with JotWW. For every game it managed to take out a monstrous creature or other expensive thing, I have three games where I might luckily nuke a single marine, or a few orks. Murderous Hurricane is much better, so is the lightning power (Unlimited range? So long Land Speeder squadron).

Nob Bikers with a pain boy: I run them but damn I feel so bad about it times. feel no pain and always get a 4+ cover save for moving

Vendetta. 3 las cannons and it can carry troops! my buddy likes to use them to hold his dudes pop my tanks the prior turns. then boost to the objective at the 11th hour to contest.

master of the fleet: he makes my daemon army cry.

Mephiston I can deal with my orks or nids just swarm him, chaos I hit him with a melta gun on a trooper or lascannon from a land raider.

The Space Pope for all three. So damn overpowered that he goes around the scale and actually becomes the most underpowered unit too.

Veteran Squads - 3 Melta/Plasma guns? Come ON Games Workshop, you seriously wanted this?

Manticore - Same as above but different kind of attack.

Leman Russ / Vendetta - . . . I've seriously played games where the other person had 9 Leman Russes, and 9 Vendettas... complete BS.


People love to cry about Mephiston, and Logan, and all that stuff, but I really don't see how it's unfair to pay premium points on a super-strong characters with a major weakness. But being able to get as many meltaguns, and transports, and everything else that IG can. It just doesn't compare to paying 250 points on a special character, when the other person has paid only 600 points or so for a bunch of super-power tanks that you can barely glance without having to deepstrike on their faces, and if you DO deepstrike on their faces, the survivors turn around and nuke you in your nice little deepstrike bunches.

grayspark wrote:Veteran Squads - 3 Melta/Plasma guns? Come ON Games Workshop, you seriously wanted this?

Manticore - Same as above but different kind of attack.

Leman Russ / Vendetta - . . . I've seriously played games where the other person had 9 Leman Russes, and 9 Vendettas... complete BS.


People love to cry about Mephiston, and Logan, and all that stuff, but I really don't see how it's unfair to pay premium points on a super-strong characters with a major weakness. But being able to get as many meltaguns, and transports, and everything else that IG can. It just doesn't compare to paying 250 points on a special character, when the other person has paid only 600 points or so for a bunch of super-power tanks that you can barely glance without having to deepstrike on their faces, and if you DO deepstrike on their faces, the survivors turn around and nuke you in your nice little deepstrike bunches.

9 leman and 9 vendettas is over 2500 points without buying the compulsorily HQ+ 2 troops.

If you are playing Apoc points levels, don't complain when you face dumb stuff like that.

This list is defined as 'most powerful for the points cost', not 'most powerful'. The Emperor might auto-win anything he is doing, but if he costs 5000 points hes not over-powered.

This list is based off the models I have played against. Hydras look OP on paper, but I've never faced them in the game, so cannot make a fair assessment.

Farseer
Doom and Fortune are incredible force multipliers. They make shuriken cats wounds T4 8/9 of the time, and T5 55% of the time.
The rules that make enemy psykers roll 3d6 for all tests is incredibly powerful. Its better (statically) than a psychic hood and its effective all over the board.

Vendetta
130 point points buying 3 TL LC, that can scout, move fast and deliver 10 IG vets? Its only 'weakness' is that it can be targeted from nearly anywhere on the board due to its size and height, but that nowhere nearly compensates for what this vehicle can deliver. It should be 175-200 points IMHO.
(note, IG vets did not make this cut, but only barely, if I had to pick a 4th OP unit, they would be it -- 3 PG + chimera = stupid effective)

Ork KFF
This one item changes the game for KoS armies and Ork Kan walls. Like the farseer, its an incredible force multiplier. Usually there is 1 - 2 turns of shooting before a KoS army is on top of you, and 2 - 3 turns before a Kan Wall does the same. The ability to give obscured to all those vehicles is incredibly powerful for the point cost.

Honorable Mentions
Null Zone
IG Vets
Ork Nobs on Bikes
Long Fangs
Master of the Fleet
TH/SS Termies
Sang Priests
Snikrot

idn why people think CSM special characters are so good... they aren't compared to other codex special characters.... if an HQ choice in CSM is broken then its either lash princes/sorc. or warptime princes

1) Vulkan... all flamers / meltas in army twin linked!!! whooo! and TH are master crafted! my god... unbelievable
2) TH/SS terminators, 3+ invul... common
3) BA fast moving vehicles- a vindicator that can move 12' and fire their blast is craziness IMO

Notable mentions:
Farseer doom/guide
The entire SW codex
Nightbringer

Any of the various SM/SW/BA librarians are awesome points for power.

Asgeirr Darkwolf wrote:Any of the various SM/SW/BA librarians are awesome points for power.

IMHO Null Zone pushes C:SM to the top in terms of librarians. No other power has as much (area of an effect) * (effect on target/ally)

Many of the other's powers are more destructive alone, and some are more powerfull, but Null Zone is the most universally usefull.

Bertimismaximus wrote:

Notable mentions:
Farseer doom/guide
The entire SW codex
Nightbringer

Nightbringer? Ok, you bring him and I'll bring ten sternguard in a drop pod (less points even). Let's see who is more worthy of the term "overpowered" Also, in 4 pages, as the most versatile unit in the game, I'm surprised sternguard haven't been called OP. They can drop pod in as a suicide squad to obliterate your opponent's most powerful unit or hang back and shoot with a multitude of different choices each turn. Can I change one of my old votes to sternguard as being OP?

GCMandrake wrote: *snip*

Enjoyed reading this.

stalkerzero wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Oblits are still considered overpowered? At 75pts each, 150 for a single squad of 2, and 225 for a full squad (now into ultra kitted Leman Russ territory and nearly Land Raider area), I'd consider them merely "ok".

I play 9 of them way, way too often to not consider them over powered because they are so versatile. And my army has two options for guns strength 8+.

Really? 2

Battle Cannon, Demolisher Cannon, melta gun, las cannon, missile launcher, and the noise marine gun.

Or if you mean units, Defilers, Vindicators, havoks, chosen, csm squads, noise marines, plague marines and oblits

edit:

on topic,
Logan
Manticores
eldrad

frenrik wrote:

Really? 2

Battle Cannon, Demolisher Cannon, melta gun, las cannon, missile launcher, and the noise marine gun.

Or if you mean units, Defilers, Vindicators, havoks, chosen, csm squads, noise marines, plague marines and oblits

Sorry, by my army I meant Necrons. Heavy Destroyers and the Monolith.

stalkerzero wrote:

frenrik wrote:

Really? 2

Battle Cannon, Demolisher Cannon, melta gun, las cannon, missile launcher, and the noise marine gun.

Or if you mean units, Defilers, Vindicators, havoks, chosen, csm squads, noise marines, plague marines and oblits

Sorry, by my army I meant Necrons. Heavy Destroyers and the Monolith.

Well necrons are special, and not in a good way. Their weapons were balanced off of a different damage result table, so now they struggle doing anything to vehicles at all.

Yeah - glancing hits used to be capable of destroying land raiders...

(Sigh.)

Anyone who says any necron unit is OP needs a serious slap.

It's a carefully guarded secret, but in 5th edition if a vehicle is Immobilized and has all of its Weapons Destroyed, then all further Immoblized and Weapon Destroyed results are converted to Destroyed (Wrecked). A Land Raider Phobos without any upgrades can be destroyed by five glancing hits.

Well.. yeah I knew that

I was alluding to the fact you could do it with a SINGLE glancing hit in the past!

liam0404 wrote:Well.. yeah I knew that

I was alluding to the fact you could do it with a SINGLE glancing hit in the past!

Which in my opinion didnt make a lot of sense. Mind you I am not saying the tables are good now.

for just power vs points:

ork boyz
long fangs
grey hunters

yeenoghu wrote:for just power vs points:

ork boyz
long fangs
grey hunters

Ork boyz? Really? What?

Anyway:

1. Mephiston. Really doesn't need explaining. If you've ever played against him, you'll know why every second post in this thread includes him.
2. Vendettas. 3 twin-linked lascannons for 30 points more than a Valk.
3. Long Fangs. Once again, heavily featured in this thread for obvious reasons.

Do you ever see them in units of less than 30 without a PK nob (except for end-of-list last minute points lacking)? point for point with the T and the number of attacks they're swinging that's a pretty disgusting number of unbreakable wounds to bring down that can hit back a LOT. Compare them to any other basic troop unit used in large numbers. Throw in the fact that they Waagh at you so you really don't have much time to gun them down. Granted one boy is nothing special (but still better and cheaper than 1 guardsman, 1 guardian, 1 gaunt) but compiled with all the almost required way they are fielded in groups with a nob, thats seriously ugly compared to what any other army can do with the same number of points.

They look nice on paper, but fearless is a liability when you are 6+ armor. Also that armor gets APed by everything. Flamers, blasts large and small, and small arms of any army pretty much rip that squad into uselessness pretty quick.

You want to bring 100 models that don't suck? bring horde sisters. 100 power armor BS 4 girls with faith powered rending attacks.... and you can do it under 1500 point including HQ.

Fearless isn't a liability when you have I2. Better to lose some boyz rather than the whole unit to a Sweeping Advance.

grayspark wrote:Veteran Squads - 3 Melta/Plasma guns? Come ON Games Workshop, you seriously wanted this?

They've always been able to take that loadout at least since at least 1999.

Leman Russ / Vendetta - . . . I've seriously played games where the other person had 9 Leman Russes, and 9 Vendettas... complete BS.

9 of both in the same army? Without any mandatory troops or HQ, or any upgrades, that's 2520pts. That doesn't sound like it should be appearing in anything outside of Apocalypse. I'm gonna have to counter your call of "complete BS" with...BS. Yes Vendettas on their own are silly, but when spammed in squadrons they become far less useful (hence why there were probably costed where they are at, as in squadrons of 3 they really aren't that great for nearly 400pts), and nobody is going to be able to pack in 9 of them and 9 Leman Russ tanks into even a Hard Boyz sized army.

People love to cry about Mephiston, and Logan, and all that stuff, but I really don't see how it's unfair to pay premium points on a super-strong characters with a major weakness. But being able to get as many meltaguns, and transports, and everything else that IG can. It just doesn't compare to paying 250 points on a special character, when the other person has paid only 600 points or so for a bunch of super-power tanks that you can barely glance without having to deepstrike on their faces, and if you DO deepstrike on their faces, the survivors turn around and nuke you in your nice little deepstrike bunches.

What's their weakness besidees *maybe* cost? Also, Mephiston is a Space Marine. Yes a powerful one, but not one that should be able to engage Hive Tyrants and and Wraithlords in close combat with and be confident of victory. He's practically got the stats of a Primarch, which really, no matter how awesome overcoming the Black Rage is, is ridiculous. He's blatantly more powerful than Daemon Princes, the daemonically empowered and ascended individuals who were once amongst the mightiest of the lords of the Chaos Space Marines. That's silly.

Nurglitch wrote:Fearless isn't a liability when you have I2. Better to lose some boyz rather than the whole unit to a Sweeping Advance.

it is when No Retreat wounds kick your face in. I'm not saying Boys aren't good, because they are, but if they don't pound the unit they're assaulting on the first turn or they'll lose steam, especially if they took a lot of hits from shooting.

IG veterans with that kind of weapon loadout have been around for a while sure, but as ELITES, not troops.

Mephiston isn't all that awesome since he can't join a squad though, that's a big drawback for his otherwise awesomeness.

yeenoghu wrote:IG veterans with that kind of weapon loadout have been around for a while sure, but as ELITES, not troops.

Mephiston isn't all that awesome since he can't join a squad though, that's a big drawback for his otherwise awesomeness.

Vets aren't a real problem, they aren't resilient, I've never had them score an objective against me. They are more likely to be used as a meltacide squad, killing one tank then getting boltered/random small arms fired off the board. They also suck in assault, so pretty weedy stuff can just assault them, esp the angry things they probably shot out of the transports.

Even if they weren't troops, back to elites, it would at least give guard a reason to even use the elite slots.

Meph's weaknesses.

Anti-psychic gear gimps him.
No invul
Not IC
Not eternal warrior
Not fearless

In my view, a unit is overpowered when you would take one versus every unit of similar cost and function in other armies. With that in mind:

1. Grey Hunters (Role: Troop Choice)- Tactical Marines that have two CCWs and are 1 point less expensive? Tactical squads were pretty good as it was, and Grey Hunters are just too much.

2. Vendetta Gunship (Role: Fast Transport/Anti-Tank)- I wish my armies had them, because I would always take them. Vendettas are dual-role vehicles that are significantly undercosted for what they do. Their only downside is the $62 purchase price.

3. Mephiston (Role: Daemon Prince/ Totally Bad @$$)- Librarians are not Daemon Princes. /Explanation

theduncan wrote:

Mr. DK wrote:1.) Mephistonian or however you spell it. The T6 was just too much... plus the 'Wings power' and fleet? come on...

2.) Lash Whips and Bone swords. Make you initiative 1, no matter what, and hit you back with power weapons that instant kill?!?!

3.) DE husk blade and soul trap. Instant kill anything then double your strenght?

4.) Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun.

How is the Shokk Attack Gun OP. It's just as likely to blow up in your face or screw up in some other way. And it cost 60 pts and a HQ. How is that OP?

It can remove things from play, with a large template. lol

frenrik wrote:Meph's weaknesses.

Anti-psychic gear gimps him.
No invul
Not IC
Not eternal warrior
Not fearless

How many armies have anti-psyker gear? *Maybe* half of them? How many routinely take them? *Maybe* half of those, probably less, and of those that do many are highly situational/avoidable (e.g. Shadow in the Warp). Is he totally boned without those powers? Nope. Not by any means. He also provides psychic defense.

No Invul and not an IC, so he's a bit more vulnerable to stuff that can wound him, but he's smaller than most SM characters in terms of model and can easily get cover saves, and at T6 with 5 wounds he's harder to take down Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes already. He's a souped up Daemon Prince essentially on a teeny-tiny hideable model.

Not Eternal Warrior? At T6 there's nothing that can inflict ID through strength value alone, meaning only a small handful of weapons in a couple armies can do it, and for the CC ones he gets to strike first against almost all of them (or at *worst* at the same time) and can ID T3 characters with normal attacks and T5 characters if he gets off a psychic power on Ld10.

Not Fearless. Ld10 ATSKNF is better than Fearless.

Couldn't agree more.

It should be noted that on balance (and assuming the overwhelming likelyhood that his powers all come off (it's pretty rarfe they won't with LD 10) he has a better statline than the Nightbringer, for 2/3 the cost, and the Nightbringer is supposedly the GOD of DEATH

(Bit bitter- lost mine to him on sat, for absolutely jack in the way of return damage)..

notabot187 wrote:They look nice on paper, but fearless is a liability when you are 6+ armor. Also that armor gets APed by everything. Flamers, blasts large and small, and small arms of any army pretty much rip that squad into uselessness pretty quick.

You want to bring 100 models that don't suck? bring horde sisters. 100 power armor BS 4 girls with faith powered rending attacks.... and you can do it under 1500 point including HQ.

Sure they don't suck, but what are you goign to do when close combat comes to them since you proabably dropped 260 points on each squad so they don't suck and have some anti-tank (2 meltaguns)? You've also only got 7 uses total for AP1 (not rending) spread out amongst 5 squads. Usually you are better off taking lots of smaller squads so you have more faith points. Also you have absolutley zero long range firepower. Don't look at the Sisters in a vacuum. They are great troops but will not match up against boyz in terms of how good troops are. Besides 30 boyz with a powerklaw is cheaper than 20 Sisters with no Eviscerator by about 45 points. they can pump out 30 shots at close range and still assault. The Sisters can pump out slightly more shots and not assault.

My choices are

1) Nob Bikers becuase they annoy me for so many reasons
2) DC Dread with blood claws because they mulched 18 out of 20 daemonettes in one CC. (Fearless save and the inability to roll a single save, yeesh)
3) IG infantry platoon becuase it does it all and for cheap too

andrewm9 wrote:

notabot187 wrote:They look nice on paper, but fearless is a liability when you are 6+ armor. Also that armor gets APed by everything. Flamers, blasts large and small, and small arms of any army pretty much rip that squad into uselessness pretty quick.

You want to bring 100 models that don't suck? bring horde sisters. 100 power armor BS 4 girls with faith powered rending attacks.... and you can do it under 1500 point including HQ.

Sure they don't suck, but what are you goign to do when close combat comes to them since you proabably dropped 260 points on each squad so they don't suck and have some anti-tank (2 meltaguns)? You've also only got 7 uses total for AP1 (not rending) spread out amongst 5 squads. Usually you are better off taking lots of smaller squads so you have more faith points. Also you have absolutley zero long range firepower. Don't look at the Sisters in a vacuum. They are great troops but will not match up against boyz in terms of how good troops are. Besides 30 boyz with a powerklaw is cheaper than 20 Sisters with no Eviscerator by about 45 points. they can pump out 30 shots at close range and still assault. The Sisters can pump out slightly more shots and not assault.

My choices are

1) Nob Bikers becuase they annoy me for so many reasons
2) DC Dread with blood claws because they mulched 18 out of 20 daemonettes in one CC. (Fearless save and the inability to roll a single save, yeesh)
3) IG infantry platoon becuase it does it all and for cheap too

In CC sisters lean on their book (to stay in combat even when losing), and more divine guidance to rend if they need it, or increase strength if they need it. They have points left over to buy som long range fire power, guard allies isn't a bad place to look... Heck if you need to, drop down to just 80 sisters to fit more guard/fire support. As for faith points, 5 squads of sisters and a cannoness is 7 faith points, counting martyrdom, I've never needed more.

That being said, I've not run horde sisters much, and only in proxy. I only owned 70 models for them... so would have had to buy even more.

1. Blight Drones - 80 point Land Speeders with Battle Cannons? No.

2. There is no 2. Nothing else is overpowered.

DarknessEternal wrote:1. Blight Drones - 80 point Land Speeders with Battle Cannons? No.

With IA:7 and IA:Apocalypse II in front of me they certainly aren't 80pts, I'm reading 125. Methinks you've been duped if someone played them against you at 80pts each.

I've never really had a problem with mephiston. Against other psykers, he can potentially fall apart, leaving him with a reasonable amount of wounds you can deal.

I don't really feel like any particular unit in 40k is broken.... everything has a weakness...It's just up to you to exploit it and take advantage of it. But if I had to give three....

IG tank lines. Just played a 1000 point game against IG with tyranids. The guy used three battletanks and three chimeras. I had to footslog my troops across the board, and get absolutely crushed by battlecannons. Luckily, my trygon prime deep striked behind the three of them and blew up two of them, but that one got murdered by Plasma vets and the last BC. It was awful. I would have had the same problems had I been using a MEQ army or otherwise. It's too easy to completely destroy horde armies with IG. It's too easy to kill MEQs too!

Land Raider Crusaders (? The ones with flamers) filled with combi-melta guys. I played a doubles game and my space wolves opponent used these guys. Pretty brutal. Those flamers wrecked face before the guys shot out of the front and blew up a couple russes, then proceeded to stomp all over some IG vets. It was great fun for me, but I would have hated to be on the receiving end of that onslaught

Nob Bikers- Holy crap. Played a game of killteams against these monsters. Eight of them, in fact. That 4+ cover save is beyond broken. It makes almost no sense either :/

Honorable mention goes to furioso librarians, who have been the bane of my existence with that lance thing and the flying thing. OY

Samus_aran115 wrote:
IG tank lines. Just played a 1000 point game against IG with tyranids. The guy used three battletanks and three chimeras. I had to footslog my troops across the board, and get absolutely crushed by battlecannons. Luckily, my trygon prime deep striked behind the three of them and blew up two of them, but that one got murdered by Plasma vets and the last BC. It was awful. I would have had the same problems had I been using a MEQ army or otherwise. It's too easy to completely destroy horde armies with IG. It's too easy to kill MEQs too!

Was there terrain blocking LoS and cover? I find this to usually be the primary issue when people have problems with this kind of army, the IG typically have clear lanes of fire and little or no cover reducing the impact of their shooting.

Vaktathi wrote:

frenrik wrote:Meph's weaknesses.

Anti-psychic gear gimps him.
No invul
Not IC
Not eternal warrior
Not fearless

How many armies have anti-psyker gear? *Maybe* half of them? How many routinely take them? *Maybe* half of those, probably less, and of those that do many are highly situational/avoidable (e.g. Shadow in the Warp). Is he totally boned without those powers? Nope. Not by any means. He also provides psychic defense.

No Invul and not an IC, so he's a bit more vulnerable to stuff that can wound him, but he's smaller than most SM characters in terms of model and can easily get cover saves, and at T6 with 5 wounds he's harder to take down Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes already. He's a souped up Daemon Prince essentially on a teeny-tiny hideable model.

Not Eternal Warrior? At T6 there's nothing that can inflict ID through strength value alone, meaning only a small handful of weapons in a couple armies can do it, and for the CC ones he gets to strike first against almost all of them (or at *worst* at the same time) and can ID T3 characters with normal attacks and T5 characters if he gets off a psychic power on Ld10.

Not Fearless. Ld10 ATSKNF is better than Fearless.

This was mostly a reply to "What's their weakness besidees *maybe* cost?"

Eldar, DH inquisitor allies, space wolves and space marines common enough opponents around here and 2 of those have table wide defence. I would say over half my tournament/league games since the new codex came out had some kind of defense going on. While not totally boned, it's still a significant hit in mobility and damage potential he's taking.

He also might be harder to take down than a demon prince, but he also cost more than 2 winged princes, and head to head, the two princes would win most of the time.

The ID thing is minor I'll grant, but I'd rather have fearless with 2+ armor than be escorted off the table because of a bad ld roll.

frenrik wrote:The ID thing is minor I'll grant, but I'd rather have fearless with 2+ armor than be escorted off the table because of a bad ld roll.

I second this. I run Lysander with LD 10 stubborn ATSKNF, and although that may seem like the best possible morale rules to have, its not. I have rolled boxcars a few times and had him escorted off the table (its not fun lol). Although rerollable stubborn is probably the most ideal (godamn commissars!) Fearless will fight to the last man 100% of the time.

Vaktathi wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:1. Blight Drones - 80 point Land Speeders with Battle Cannons? No.

With IA:7 and IA:Apocalypse II in front of me they certainly aren't 80pts, I'm reading 125. Methinks you've been duped if someone played them against you at 80pts each.

Ok. Then there are no overpowered units in 40k.

Unless we're counting something terrible, like Pyrovores, as the standard level of power. Then many things would be overpowered. Best to think of the majority of things as the standard, and some things are too weak.

Samus_aran115 wrote:
IG tank lines. Just played a 1000 point game against IG with tyranids. The guy used three battletanks and three chimeras. I had to footslog my troops across the board, and get absolutely crushed by battlecannons. Luckily, my trygon prime deep striked behind the three of them and blew up two of them, but that one got murdered by Plasma vets and the last BC. It was awful. I would have had the same problems had I been using a MEQ army or otherwise. It's too easy to completely destroy horde armies with IG. It's too easy to kill MEQs too!

Wait, this doesn't work. I have a friend who fields 3 Battletanks. But he only has a CC and two Plasma vet squads. I'd understand 1 chimera being squeezed in there, but 3? I'd check this guys list.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:
IG tank lines. Just played a 1000 point game against IG with tyranids. The guy used three battletanks and three chimeras. I had to footslog my troops across the board, and get absolutely crushed by battlecannons. Luckily, my trygon prime deep striked behind the three of them and blew up two of them, but that one got murdered by Plasma vets and the last BC. It was awful. I would have had the same problems had I been using a MEQ army or otherwise. It's too easy to completely destroy horde armies with IG. It's too easy to kill MEQs too!

Wait, this doesn't work. I have a friend who fields 3 Battletanks. But he only has a CC and two Plasma vet squads. I'd understand 1 chimera being squeezed in there, but 3? I'd check this guys list.

No, three battle tanks and three chimeras is easily possible within a thousand points even with lots of plasma. Three russes, two mech vet squads and a mech CCS with a bunch of plasma guns costs somewhere around 950 points. Enough space left over for some vet skills or a sentinel.

Raxmei wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:
IG tank lines. Just played a 1000 point game against IG with tyranids. The guy used three battletanks and three chimeras. I had to footslog my troops across the board, and get absolutely crushed by battlecannons. Luckily, my trygon prime deep striked behind the three of them and blew up two of them, but that one got murdered by Plasma vets and the last BC. It was awful. I would have had the same problems had I been using a MEQ army or otherwise. It's too easy to completely destroy horde armies with IG. It's too easy to kill MEQs too!

Wait, this doesn't work. I have a friend who fields 3 Battletanks. But he only has a CC and two Plasma vet squads. I'd understand 1 chimera being squeezed in there, but 3? I'd check this guys list.

No, three battle tanks and three chimeras is easily possible within a thousand points even with lots of plasma. Three russes, two mech vet squads and a mech CCS with a bunch of plasma guns costs somewhere around 950 points. Enough space left over for some vet skills or a sentinel.

He would have to going with the bare minimum, skinny-milk list, but I guess it could work.

Not really all that minimum

HQ: CCS, Chimera, 4x plasma gun
Vets: Chimera, 4x Plasma Gun
Vets: Chimra, 4x Plasma Gun

Leman Russ
Leman Russ
Leman Russ

give you 50pts to play around with, add a sentinel, or toss lascannons on the LR's, etc.

Vaktathi wrote:Not really all that minimum

HQ: CCS, Chimera, 4x plasma gun
Vets: Chimera, 4x Plasma Gun
Vets: Chimra, 4x Plasma Gun

Leman Russ
Leman Russ
Leman Russ

give you 50pts to play around with, add a sentinel, or toss lascannons on the LR's, etc.

That's what I'd call a skinny-milk list. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but it's a list where you've obviously thinned out your entire army in order to fatten up a certain area (Heavy Support).

Shenra wrote:Everyone loses...because for the points...no one mentioned........

MARLBORO!!!!

Mephiston and Abaddon are both over 200 points...Marlboro is only what....55? I would take 4 Marlboro's over Mephiston or Abaddon any day of the week.

Ah, I remember the good old days before the Tyranid Codex and everything after it, back when Marbo was actually scary... We were so young and naive, weren't we?

Eldrad
Pathfinders. +2 cover save that because of Warlocks you can do a double save = No list can beat them until you get up close or take out the locks.
Avatar

What is a "double" save?

A single flamer will kill those 24ppm T3 5+sv infantry, and in cover they are still easier to kill than Termi's due to their T3.

Vaktathi wrote:What is a "double" save?

A single flamer will kill those 24ppm T3 5+sv infantry, and in cover they are still easier to kill than Termi's due to their T3.

Its a re-roll. When he says warlocks, I think he meant farseers, they can cast fortune.

notabot187 wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:What is a "double" save?

A single flamer will kill those 24ppm T3 5+sv infantry, and in cover they are still easier to kill than Termi's due to their T3.

Its a re-roll. When he says warlocks, I think he meant farseers, they can cast fortune.

I was sorta thinking that, but not sure if he was referring to Conceal from Warlocks or Fortune from Farseers.

And again, why a flamer solves all those issues, there's no saves they can take to reroll

Vasarto wrote:Eldrad

This makes no sense to me. He's strictly middle of the pack when it comes to potency.

In no particular order:

1. Chaos Spawn
Okay, let's get this straight: T5 and 3 wounds for 40 points. Oh, and they're fearless. Oh, they also have D6 attacks.
Oh, I forgot to mention that you can take as many of them as you want. You're fething kidding, right? I got tabled by some dickweed playing Spawn Spam. feth you good sir, feth you. I'm sure Satan has a nice place for you in hell next to the Necron player that spams Pariahs.

2. Aun'va
Sure, he's expensive, costing more than 200 points. I understand that the more powerful the character, the more it should cost and that makes total sense. But you've got to be fething kidding me on this one.
Read my lips: 4 wounds with a 4+ cover save. He's T3(5). Wtf. Oh and if that wasn't good enough, to counteract his only weakness (WS1) he has two fething honor guards that are also T3(5) and are WS4 with honor blades. Yeah, that's fair. As if it wasn't bad enough, all Tau within line of sight are Stubborn.
Now you smartasses are gonna say, "dude, kill it." Yeah, how about I go tightrope across a volcano while juggling two flaming unicorns while I attempt to kill this fething beast of a special character. Mephiston has nothing on this fether.

3. Pariahs
Ok. So for 36 points, you get a model with T5 and a 3+ save. Now that's good but that's not the thing that feths me over about these guys.
First off, all enemy models within 12" count as Leadership 7. So you're telling me that my Chaos Terminators, victors of a thousand wars, are now fething leadership 7?!! I'm so angry I could awehio;aedgio;egako;eargklaglga
Seriously though. Not only that, but Pariahs rape Psykers. Oh great, my Rune Priest which I paid a gak-ton of points for is now Leadership 7 and has to take leadership tests? feth off dude. The moron who wrote this codex must've been on some serious drugs.

Hits on 3+ (against most things), wounds on 2+ power weapon that's S9 vs vehicles, plus tons of psychic mojo..

If this is midrange I'm missing some serious power in my armies somewhere..

Ascalam wrote:Hits on 3+ (against most things), wounds on 2+ power weapon that's S9 vs vehicles, plus tons of psychic mojo..

If this is midrange I'm missing some serious power in my armies somewhere..

If you're throwing him against vehichles you've got serious problems with how to use this guy. He's a support role, very different to Jetbike Seer Council.

1: space marine - all of them

2: eldar pathfinders

3: monolith - 10 rails guns and i can never get a pen hit on the damn thing

Memphiston.

Long Fangs.

Manticore.

Reasons are obvious.

Vladsimpaler wrote:*Snip*

First, I was like:
And then I was like:
And finally:

Oh that was joke. Thank the emporer.

Ascalam wrote:Hits on 3+ (against most things), wounds on 2+ power weapon that's S9 vs vehicles, plus tons of psychic mojo..

If this is midrange I'm missing some serious power in my armies somewhere..

And has 1 attack.

2 Farseers are cheaper and have more powers than Eldrad that cover a wider range, so his psychic abilities are irrelevant.

Eldrad is quite good, but i think his powers are in line for his cost, especially given how over priced the rest of the eldar book is.

It is pretty hard to top that list but I thought that I would have a go.

Vespids
These guys shoot units to bits. Just hit a unit with a couple of marker lights and they will probably hit and wound on 2s. Their AP3 guns rip through armor, ensuring what they wound dies. You don't even have a chance to kill them before they strike, as they can deepstrike real close to the enemy aided by the reroll provided by the pathfinder devilfish, and then fire away. When my opponent fields these I just pack up.

Furies of Chaos
Everyone knows that one of the biggest weaknesses of a Daemon army is that once it drops it is not very mobile. Furies provide the mobility to make Deamon armies truly effective. They can fly around and hold up units giving your other Daemons time to do some real damage. They have invuln saves and thus can potentially survive anything. They are a bargain as they cost no more than a Space Marine and you can field large units of them.

I almost nominated Ripper Swarms for my third unit. I ended up going with Mandrakes as they really change they way Dark Eldar play. Most Deldar units are torn to shreds by shooting. Not Mandrakes. They have an invuln save, and get a bonus if they are in cover. More importantly they provide cover saves for the rest of your army. So you can take enormous squads of warriors and sit back and shoot.

Vladsimpaler wrote:In no particular order:

1. Chaos Spawn
Okay, let's get this straight: T5 and 3 wounds for xx points. Oh, and they're fearless. Oh, they also have D6 attacks.
Oh, I forgot to mention that you can take as many of them as you want. You're fething kidding, right? I got tabled by some dickweed playing Spawn Spam. feth you good sir, feth you. I'm sure Satan has a nice place for you in hell next to the Necron player that spams Pariahs.

2. Aun'va
Sure, he's expensive at xxx points. I understand that the more powerful the character, the more it should cost and that makes total sense. But you've got to be fething kidding me on this one.
Read my lips: 4 wounds with a 4+ cover save. He's T3(5). Wtf. Oh and if that wasn't good enough, to counteract his only weakness (WS1) he has two fething honor guards that are also T3(5) and are WS4 with honor blades. Yeah, that's fair. As if it wasn't bad enough, all Tau within are Stubborn.
Now you smartasses are gonna say, "dude, kill it." Yeah, how about I go tightrope across a volcano while juggling two flaming unicorns while I attempt to kill this fething beast of a special character. Mephiston has nothing on this fether.

3. Pariahs
Ok. So for xx points, you get a model with T5 and a 3+ save. Now that's good but that's not the thing that feths me over about these guys.
First off, all enemy models within 12" count as Leadership 7. So you're telling me that my Chaos Terminators, victors of a thousand wars, are now fething leadership 7?!! I'm so angry I could awehio;aedgio;egako;eargklaglga
Seriously though. Not only that, but Pariahs rape Psykers. Oh great, my Rune Priest which I paid a gak-ton of points for is now Leadership 7 and has to take leadership tests? feth off dude. The moron who wrote this codex must've been on some serious drugs.

Wow, some really interesting choices here. Vespid? Pariahs? Really?

I'd have to say vanilla hammernators are pretty dang good values. Sure, they're slow. And sure, they can't shoot. But they hit hard, and there's nothing in the game that can reliably take them out in CC, or even shooting. In fact, just about anything with storm shields is pretty dang tough to beat these days. Thank god I play marines!

Any type of multi-wound, customizable squad. Nob bikers are the big offender, but there are others.

Lash of Submission. I hate it. Yeah, there are ways around it, but at the cost of invalidating whole types of army composition.



Let me say that I don't believe Grey Hunters are overpowered. Rather, they are what other troops choices should be. Useful.

There's been a trend lately to make troops suck. No one takes tacs these days, they're just no good. All people do is try to find the least number of troops that will survive 6 turns and allow them to claim objectives at the endgame. Why force us to waste points on stuff no one finds useful? Why not make them decent, instead of something you have to have but spend all game protecting while your non-points sink units do the work?

Vladsimpaler wrote:In no particular order:

1. Chaos Spawn
Okay, let's get this straight: T5 and 3 wounds for 40 points. Oh, and they're fearless. Oh, they also have D6 attacks.
Oh, I forgot to mention that you can take as many of them as you want. You're fething kidding, right? I got tabled by some dickweed playing Spawn Spam. feth you good sir, feth you. I'm sure Satan has a nice place for you in hell next to the Necron player that spams Pariahs.

2. Aun'va
Sure, he's expensive at 205 points. I understand that the more powerful the character, the more it should cost and that makes total sense. But you've got to be fething kidding me on this one.
Read my lips: 4 wounds with a 4+ cover save. He's T3(5). Wtf. Oh and if that wasn't good enough, to counteract his only weakness (WS1) he has two fething honor guards that are also T3(5) and are WS4 with honor blades. Yeah, that's fair. As if it wasn't bad enough, all Tau within are Stubborn.
Now you smartasses are gonna say, "dude, kill it." Yeah, how about I go tightrope across a volcano while juggling two flaming unicorns while I attempt to kill this fething beast of a special character. Mephiston has nothing on this fether.

3. Pariahs
Ok. So for 36 points, you get a model with T5 and a 3+ save. Now that's good but that's not the thing that feths me over about these guys.
First off, all enemy models within 12" count as Leadership 7. So you're telling me that my Chaos Terminators, victors of a thousand wars, are now fething leadership 7?!! I'm so angry I could awehio;aedgio;egako;eargklaglga
Seriously though. Not only that, but Pariahs rape Psykers. Oh great, my Rune Priest which I paid a gak-ton of points for is now Leadership 7 and has to take leadership tests? feth off dude. The moron who wrote this codex must've been on some serious drugs.

woah, woah, woah! language

I agree about chaos spawn. Just be happy that they have to be put into as little units as possible. If you had 26 independent spawn against you, that would have been much worse.

yeah, he's pretty broke, but just remeber- It's tau.

yeah, really. Warscythes are too much.

spaceelf wrote:It is pretty hard to top that list but I thought that I would have a go.

Vespids
These guys shoot units to bits. Just hit a unit with a couple of marker lights and they will probably hit and wound on 2s. Their AP3 guns rip through armor, ensuring what they wound dies. You don't even have a chance to kill them before they strike, as they can deepstrike real close to the enemy aided by the reroll provided by the pathfinder devilfish, and then fire away. When my opponent fields these I just pack up.

Furies of Chaos
Everyone knows that one of the biggest weaknesses of a Daemon army is that once it drops it is not very mobile. Furies provide the mobility to make Deamon armies truly effective. They can fly around and hold up units giving your other Daemons time to do some real damage. They have invuln saves and thus can potentially survive anything. They are a bargain as they cost no more than a Space Marine and you can field large units of them.

I almost nominated Ripper Swarms for my third unit. I ended up going with Mandrakes as they really change they way Dark Eldar play. Most Deldar units are torn to shreds by shooting. Not Mandrakes. They have an invuln save, and get a bonus if they are in cover. More importantly they provide cover saves for the rest of your army. So you can take enormous squads of warriors and sit back and shoot.

Vladsimpaler wrote:In no particular order:

1. Chaos Spawn
Okay, let's get this straight: T5 and 3 wounds for xx points. Oh, and they're fearless. Oh, they also have D6 attacks.
Oh, I forgot to mention that you can take as many of them as you want. You're fething kidding, right? I got tabled by some dickweed playing Spawn Spam. feth you good sir, feth you. I'm sure Satan has a nice place for you in hell next to the Necron player that spams Pariahs.

2. Aun'va
Sure, he's expensive at xxx points. I understand that the more powerful the character, the more it should cost and that makes total sense. But you've got to be fething kidding me on this one.
Read my lips: 4 wounds with a 4+ cover save. He's T3(5). Wtf. Oh and if that wasn't good enough, to counteract his only weakness (WS1) he has two fething honor guards that are also T3(5) and are WS4 with honor blades. Yeah, that's fair. As if it wasn't bad enough, all Tau within are Stubborn.
Now you smartasses are gonna say, "dude, kill it." Yeah, how about I go tightrope across a volcano while juggling two flaming unicorns while I attempt to kill this fething beast of a special character. Mephiston has nothing on this fether.

3. Pariahs
Ok. So for xx points, you get a model with T5 and a 3+ save. Now that's good but that's not the thing that feths me over about these guys.
First off, all enemy models within 12" count as Leadership 7. So you're telling me that my Chaos Terminators, victors of a thousand wars, are now fething leadership 7?!! I'm so angry I could awehio;aedgio;egako;eargklaglga
Seriously though. Not only that, but Pariahs rape Psykers. Oh great, my Rune Priest which I paid a gak-ton of points for is now Leadership 7 and has to take leadership tests? feth off dude. The moron who wrote this codex must've been on some serious drugs.

Are you kidding me? Rippers are an unstoppable swarm. You get one more attack, one more wound, and they can Deep Strike. The best part is that you get them for free. There's no Ripper box that you can buy, you get Rippers with everything! Well, I guess the truth hurts, don't it.

What does Memphiston do again? I know I read his rules stuff once but I forget what it did that made him so powerful.

Other really powerful units

Rune Priest
Those necron Lord guys with that scythe that ignores any and all saves including inv. I have a feeling that when the Necron Codex is finally gonna drop. He is gonna get a massive OP charge to it.
Noise Marines with those sound cannon things. Long range and devastating. I seen those things tear through almost everything they shoot at.

Vasarto wrote:What does Memphiston do again? I know I read his rules stuff once but I forget what it did that made him so powerful.

Other really powerful units

Rune Priest
Those necron Lord guys with that scythe that ignores any and all saves including inv. I have a feeling that when the Necron Codex is finally gonna drop. He is gonna get a massive OP charge to it.
Noise Marines with those sound cannon things. Long range and devastating. I seen those things tear through almost everything they shoot at.

Sorry just have to throw this in here, warscythes are not OP. In fact nothing from that codex is OP in the slightest.

I welcome it becoming OP next edition mind you

Edit: I actually do have a reason for my argument other than "Necrons are old!"

Necron lords can take scythes. Great. They are also I4 and have 3 attacks. This makes them possible the WORST close combat HQ, that was DESIGNED for close combat (not counting Tau etc).

Pariahs only have 1 fething attack man. Thats far from overpowered.

Vasarto wrote:What does Memphiston do again? I know I read his rules stuff once but I forget what it did that made him so powerful.

Other really powerful units

Rune Priest
Those necron Lord guys with that scythe that ignores any and all saves including inv. I have a feeling that when the Necron Codex is finally gonna drop. He is gonna get a massive OP charge to it.
Noise Marines with those sound cannon things. Long range and devastating. I seen those things tear through almost everything they shoot at.

str 6, ws7, ini7, 5 wounds 2+ save with 4+1 attacks with a force weapon and is fleet.

Can use 3 powers a turn
str 10, preferred enemy, jump pack move, d3 extra attacks or use the force weapon.

also has an ability usable against ics. ld check -2 (might be 4) or he rerolls all wound/hits against you.

So, he could have 9 str 10 attacks at ini 8 (if in priest range) on the charge with a force weapon.

Yes, Mephiston's rules are bloody awful.

'' 3. Pariahs
Ok. So for 36 points, you get a model with T5 and a 3+ save. Now that's good but that's not the thing that feths me over about these guys.
First off, all enemy models within 12" count as Leadership 7. So you're telling me that my Chaos Terminators, victors of a thousand wars, are now fething leadership 7?!! I'm so angry I could awehio;aedgio;egako;eargklaglga
Seriously though. Not only that, but Pariahs rape Psykers. Oh great, my Rune Priest which I paid a gak-ton of points for is now Leadership 7 and has to take leadership tests? feth off dude. The moron who wrote this codex must've been on some serious drugs. ''


You can't 'spam' pariahs (they're 0-1, 10 max)

They can't 'we'll be back'

They will go last against almost anything in cc, and die before they get to use the fancy scythes

even if they do get to cc undamaged, they only have 1 attack

You can't teleport them, so they'll be walking (slowly) up the field, being picked off at range

They don't count as necrons, so phasing them out is pretty easy.


Overpowered?

I once floated a theoretical unit statline to a friend i was playing against with my Crons

S4, I 1, has 2+ armour and a 3+ invuln, T4, I 4, CC weapon that strikes at S8 and ignores armour, doesn't count as a Necron, possibly more than 1 attack on the statline..


He went APE ! Ranted at me for the whole game about how overpowered it would be. When he paused for breath and beer to ease his raw throat i flipped through his Marine codex to Terminators with TH/SS ..

He shut up pretty quick then, as his army had been 3 squads of these in LRs plus all the ugly the boys in blue could field..