Here are some examples I can think of GW stupidity for the SM alone:

Scout Bikers Shotguns: Besides looking cool, there is absolutely zero reason to every fire a an AP - shotgun over a relentless AP 5 TL- Bolter, so why the hell is it there?

Ironclad Dreadnought chainfists: So you are saying I can trade my Siesmic hammer for a chainfist, losing my second DCCW bonus attack, losing my +1 to the damage table, losing my initiative 4 to init 1, and gaining a str 10 2D6 armor pen when 95% of the vehicles in 40k have only rear armor 10, and its useless against the monolith? For free? COUNT ME IN!!

Devistator Squad Box: Don't get me started on this mess of a kit. A sarge with a boltgun and chainsword? Awsome weapon combo, who needs a pistol?? 2 Heavy bolters, 2 Lascannons, 1 Multimelta, 1 Missile Launcher and 1 Plasmacannon (IIRC) and 5 marine bodies gives you the ability to build one godamn useless devistator squad. There should be a Missile Launcher Devistator squad with a sarge and 4 missiles, a Plasmacannon devistator squad with 4 PCs and a sargeant, and so on.

Sternguard with storm-bolters: sigh

Rhino and Razorback kits: So GW sells the rhino kit, and for like a dollar more you can buy the razorback kit, which includes EVERYTHING in a rhino kit, plus the razorback sprue that has dozer blades, lascannons, heavy bolters, and some extra bits. They are basically selling the razorback sprue for a dollar, and they should just sell a "Rhino/Razorback" box kit, because the rhino kit is a ripoff.

What other examples of GW stupidity do you have?

Armourd Senitenls that can take a HK but not a heavy stubber...eh?!
IG vet squads can trade in their lasgun for a shot gun for free, cool...hang on, GW don't make shotguns!

Looted Wagons: Give up a HS slot for this? Put a crappy gun on it for 75 points and lose all transport capability? The ability to lose control of the vehicle?

All of the old metal SM Veterans. If you actually took them for the equips they had, then you had one messed up squad. If you wanted specific equips, then you'd get one monotoned squad.

A Plastic Power Armor SM commander and a Terminator Armored Chaos Lord. Personally a Terminator Armored SM commander would be so much more useful. A Terminator Chaos Lord is good, but I'd rather take a special character or a Daemon Prince, or a cheap sorceror in PA.

Finally, the SM Combat Squad. The value is mindboggling.

"Tau Pathfinders MUST take a Devilfish"

So you're telling me I HAVE to take a transport that is worth almost as much as a full size squad? And the squad has only Heavy Weapons? And you can't fire out of said transport? And the unit have scouts, so they don't need a transport?

Yeah that makes sense.

Just about every special CC weapon a Heamonculus can field. Why give such awesome arcane weaponry to piss poor combatants?

The Animus Vitae. This thing is useless. Not only is it on a piss poor CC model, but it isn't even a poisoned or power weapon for its crappy effect.

Dias of Destruction. Need I say more?

FAQ update on the Implosion Missile changing completely how the thing works, yet the Shattershard, which is worded exactly the same, works differently now? Whaaaa?

scubasteve04 wrote:Devistator Squad Box: Don't get me started on this mess of a kit. A sarge with a boltgun and chainsword? Awsome weapon combo, who needs a pistol?? 2 Heavy bolters, 2 Lascannons, 1 Multimelta, 1 Missile Launcher and 1 Plasmacannon (IIRC) and 5 marine bodies gives you the ability to build one godamn useless devistator squad. There should be a Missile Launcher Devistator squad with a sarge and 4 missiles, a Plasmacannon devistator squad with 4 PCs and a sargeant, and so on.

You obviously never played in 3rd edition. Oh boo hoo, they give me lots of options but not 4 of each weapon I want! In 3rd ed you got a Pcannon, a Lascannon, a ML, and a HB. Don't want those weapons? Too bad.

And they were metal/plastic hybrid kits.

I'm pretty sure that the Devastator box comes with options for pistols, an ammunition-carrying hand, and a Power Fist. Plus a spare set of legs. And ammunition cannisters.

Am I am idiot for thinking the devastator set was a good buy? I was able to convert boltgun guys to heavies, got around 7-8 in al I think.

Having said that, I don't get dev squads, my heavies are in my tactical squads, so maybe that suited me better.

liam0404 wrote:Am I am idiot for thinking the devastator set was a good buy? I was able to convert boltgun guys to heavies, got around 7-8 in al I think.

Having said that, I don't get dev squads, my heavies are in my tactical squads, so maybe that suited me better.

If you have 3-4 tactical squads that need Heavy weapons outside the Missile, then its a great buy.

If you are buying the kit for the sole purpose of building a coherent Devistator squad (like the name suggests) then you are out of luck.

Devastator squads aren't used that often when things like Land Raider crusaders and Vindicators use the same slot. It's really just a dedicated heavy weapons sprue, and to release x different sets with 4 lascannons, 4 multimeltas, 4 rocket launchers etc. wouldn't be cost effective. Rocket launchers are really easy to come by anyway; every tactical squad has one.

I think one of GW's biggest snafus was releasing rules for the Stormraven in WD and not officially letting anyone use it. If it just had a big ol' "Chapter Approved" up top then things'd be gravy.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Need I say more?

most of the bits upgrades for SM weapons are pretty dismal. Forget ammo cannisters and back poles and random mini terrain pieces - how about the right weapons to make the options in the book? The devastator one is pretty obvious but, how difficult would it be to just make a sprue of all the heavy weapons and a sprue of all the special weapons and all of the close combat/combi weapons? I don't want to buy 4 boxes of devastators to make one squad of lascannons, can't I just buy a sprue of lascannons?

And why are there no thunderwolf cavalry or jetbike warlocks? Everyone who plays those armies would love them.

TWC can be forgiven. At least they gave us some interesting rules to use if we feel like converting for them. Warlock and Seer Jetbikes, however, have been there for a damn long time.

scubasteve04 wrote:If you are buying the kit for the sole purpose of building a coherent Devistator squad (like the name suggests) then you are out of luck.

What'd you want GW to do? Make 6 different boxes, one for each type of dev squad?

Vendetta, trade two twin linked lascannons for two *single shot* S4 AP5 ignores cover blast missiles?

Hive Tyrant, I can either have an S6, 6 shot Twin Linked weapon option for a Hive Tyrant that can also inflict a morale penalty for 15pts, or an S5 3 shot Twin linked weapon option for the same 15pts? Um...is this a trick question?

scubasteve04 wrote:
Ironclad Dreadnought chainfists: So you are saying I can trade my Siesmic hammer for a chainfist, losing my second DCCW bonus attack, losing my +1 to the damage table, losing my initiative 4 to init 1, and gaining a str 10 2D6 armor pen when 95% of the vehicles in 40k have only rear armor 10, and its useless against the monolith? For free? COUNT ME IN!!

The chainfist is there to help with the destruction of bunkers and the like. It's a siege dreadnought remember yes ?

crazypsyko666 wrote:Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Need I say more?

Is it really that bad? I recently started playing csm and I like 'em. Especially their HQ's

Some of the new leman russ variants are a bit crap. And I wish they returned the vanquisher to like it was before.

Also, no vendetta kit? Really?

crazypsyko666 wrote:Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Need I say more?

Gonna have to agree with this one. I miss my Iron Warriors.

crazypsyko666 wrote:Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Need I say more?

While I'll agree that Is isn't brilliant in a couple of areas, it isn't that bad?

The Loota box (5 guys) makes four lootas and one big mek (without a KFF).

My point of stupidity, Mogul Kamir, the only character you buy that actually makes your unit worse.

IG RR rely on getting their one perfect charge, so Mr Kamir decides to skew that by giving them Rage, nice, making them charge after anything that could potentially be a target, even maybe a LR that they have no chance of even hurting. Oh, and his Furious Charge has no effect on their Hunting Lances. Even better! Me no likey Mogul Kamir :(

And no transports for HWS or SWS. And that they can't take voxes, because that would actually be useful. The new vox system as a whole actually is pretty silly. Maybe make it indefinite range if both sender and receiver have voxes? Or they get to use the sender's Ld for Orders? Just having a re-roll is kind of annoying...

olympia wrote:The Loota box (5 guys) makes four lootas and one big mek (without a KFF).

It's a mekboy, one of the options for Loota/Burna squads.

Blood Reapers top 4 GW mistakes
Number 4: Marks of Chaos.
While only effective on certain units, Marks of Chaos are Over Priced but I will say the Mark of Tzeentch is ok.
Number 3: Daemon Prince of the Chaos Space Marines.
With a tiny amount of expensive upgrades, No familiar, no real unique character design. Chaos Daemons fixed this by giving it the most options in the codex.
Number 2: Chaos Sorcerer.
Chaos Sorcerers are supposed to be some of the greatest of Psychers. 1 PSYCHICH POWER! Just to get 2 you have to have a Familiar or the Mark of Tzeentch. And 3 will require both, plus most Chaos Psychic powers are pretty bad compared to those of the Blood Angels and Space Wolves.
Number 1: Possessed.
Random special powers and a tiny amount of Upgrades, Possessed are difficult to use without getting the special rule you want.

Yes there all from the Chaos codex

Crevab wrote:

olympia wrote:The Loota box (5 guys) makes four lootas and one big mek (without a KFF).

It's a mekboy, one of the options for Loota/Burna squads.

Which is a gak choice for either

One or two stupid things I noticed in the IG codex, for the infantry platoons:

of all the units, only SWS lack frag grenades and the option for krak grenades! I find this very strange since they are supposed to be able to represent combat engineers, and it was probably just a cut-and-paste error. I literally cannot think of a reason to not give SWS the grenades all other units have included.

Infantry sergeants have to take a laspistol/ccw unless they upgrade to special weapons. You used to be able to take (for free) a pistol/ccw, a lasgun, or a shotgun. Which was very cool and didn't make a difference really. For no reason they forced everyone to start using the pistol. I dunno why. Maybe leaders who had rifles, instead of swords to wave over their heads while screaming, wasn't in line with the official Imperial Guard code of conduct.

vleermie wrote:

crazypsyko666 wrote:Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Need I say more?

Is it really that bad? I recently started playing csm and I like 'em. Especially their HQ's

It's a flavorless, vanilla, Jervis-y, fluff-as-rules-so-it-has-to-work, debacle. If you want a good read, look up the edition previous.

SM honor Guard

specifically: they come with power weapons and a boltgun/boltpistol, you can trade the boltgun/boltpistol for a Combat Blade

(as far as i know this was so that it didnt invalidate older models people had... but still...)

Chaos Spawn. Clearly just thrown in there for background reasons. Right?

Still, in an army book that lost most of its old special rules, org chart variations, and wargear, it's kind of like the icing on the cake.

My only real complaints are the continues lack of support for Epic, and their habit of having really good units, but with no model to go with them

Specialist games...


I'll just leave that there

scubasteve04 wrote:Here are some examples I can think of GW stupidity for the SM alone:

Scout Bikers Shotguns: Besides looking cool, there is absolutely zero reason to every fire a an AP - shotgun over a relentless AP 5 TL- Bolter, so why the hell is it there?

Because previous models included the shotgun as well and so this headed off the problem of players finding themselves with models equipped with no longer allowed weapons.

So... wow, none of your 'stupid' examples were actually stupid. Nice job.

Bookwrack wrote:

scubasteve04 wrote:Here are some examples I can think of GW stupidity for the SM alone:

Scout Bikers Shotguns: Besides looking cool, there is absolutely zero reason to every fire a an AP - shotgun over a relentless AP 5 TL- Bolter, so why the hell is it there?

Because previous models included the shotgun as well and so this headed off the problem of players finding themselves with models equipped with no longer allowed weapons.

So... wow, none of your 'stupid' examples were actually stupid. Nice job.

They can add rules to make the wargear not pointless, like being able to fire the bikes bolter plus a carried weapon (with proper points adjustment of course).

So your one of those people who thinks Ironclad chainfists are cool, or buying a 40 dollar kit then having to drop another 40 dollars on ebay to be able to actually build a legitimate devastator squad is cool too?

scubasteve04 wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:

scubasteve04 wrote:Here are some examples I can think of GW stupidity for the SM alone:

Scout Bikers Shotguns: Besides looking cool, there is absolutely zero reason to every fire a an AP - shotgun over a relentless AP 5 TL- Bolter, so why the hell is it there?

Because previous models included the shotgun as well and so this headed off the problem of players finding themselves with models equipped with no longer allowed weapons.

So... wow, none of your 'stupid' examples were actually stupid. Nice job.

They can add rules to make the wargear not pointless, like being able to fire the bikes bolter plus a carried weapon (with proper points adjustment of course).

So your one of those people who thinks Ironclad chainfists are cool, or buying a 40 dollar kit then having to drop another 40 dollars on ebay to be able to actually build a legitimate devastator squad is cool too?

Making the kits take time and money.

scubasteve04 wrote:They can add rules to make the wargear not pointless, like being able to fire the bikes bolter plus a carried weapon (with proper points adjustment of course).

So your one of those people who thinks Ironclad chainfists are cool, or buying a 40 dollar kit then having to drop another 40 dollars on ebay to be able to actually build a legitimate devastator squad is cool too?

It's a siege dreadnought, so having a +2d6 power fist is in character, even if it's not balls to the wall best choice EVARZ! which seems the sole determining factor for what you call, 'stupid.'

As for Devastators, what alternative would you suggest for getting all the weapon options in one box?

Bookwrack wrote:

scubasteve04 wrote:They can add rules to make the wargear not pointless, like being able to fire the bikes bolter plus a carried weapon (with proper points adjustment of course).

So your one of those people who thinks Ironclad chainfists are cool, or buying a 40 dollar kit then having to drop another 40 dollars on ebay to be able to actually build a legitimate devastator squad is cool too?

It's a siege dreadnought, so having a +2d6 power fist is in character, even if it's not balls to the wall best choice EVARZ! which seems the sole determining factor for what you call, 'stupid.'

As for Devastators, what alternative would you suggest for getting all the weapon options in one box?

When GW starts releasing stuff with AV 18-20, then I will consider the chainfist usefull


Devistators should be split up into at least 2, if not more kits with multiples of the same heavy weapon. I know it may be a crazy Idea for GW to implement, but I find it stupid when I can build a coherent 10 man Tactical squad (kudos for them at least getting that right) but when I want to build a 4x ML devistator squad, I only get a single missile out of the kit and have to hunt for the rest on ebay. Now I have basicly 2 full sprues of heavy weapons I have no use for. Such a waste.

It also encourages new players to build slowed devistator squads. I hate seeing a newbie with a Dev squad with 2x Lascannon, 1x Plasma Cannon, 1x Missile or something useless like that. Stupidity promoting more stupidity.

The land speeder storm not being a ded trans for scouts? IT MAKES NO SENSE!!!!

not making models for half the nid codex is an annoyance.

FM Ninja 048 wrote:Specialist games...


I'll just leave that there

Hey, some of the company's better game design is represented there. What's dumb is that they aren't promoting them anymore.

On topic: cutting The Lost and The Damned, and the other minor armies that blended their model ranges.

I know I'm asking a lot here, but how about you stop and think for a second?

If only there were other people who also played this game, who, like you, might have models they have no intention of using but might, perhaps, be willing to exchange them, to, dare I say it, trade their unused models for yours?

Ah, who am I kidding? Even if there were other people out there with unused models besides you (which I doubt) it's not like there's anyway they could communicate with each other, no gathering place, no 'messaging board,' if you will, where such a thing could be set up.

Bookwrack wrote:I know I'm asking a lot here, but how about you stop and think for a second?

If only there were other people who also played this game, who, like you, might have models they have no intention of using but might, perhaps, be willing to exchange them, to, dare I say it, trade their unused models for yours?

Ah, who am I kidding? Even if there were other people out there with unused models besides you (which I doubt) it's not like there's anyway they could communicate with each other, no gathering place, no 'messaging board,' if you will, where such a thing could be set up.

I plan on selling them, but its a huge hassle and I probably won't get what I played for them unless I sell every little piece individually (F that)

Lictors. At least the Fex was just nerfed. Lictors have zero purpose other than setting up a tunnel for DS troops to come in and then die. The trygon can do the same, minus the dying part.

Exopheric wrote:

FM Ninja 048 wrote:Specialist games...


I'll just leave that there

Hey, some of the company's better game design is represented there. What's dumb is that they aren't promoting them anymore.

precisely what I meant

by Bookwrack

If only there were other people who also played this game, who, like you, might have models they have no intention of using but might, perhaps, be willing to exchange them, to, dare I say it, trade their unused models for yours?

Ah, who am I kidding? Even if there were other people out there with unused models besides you (which I doubt) it's not like there's anyway they could communicate with each other, no gathering place, no 'messaging board,' if you will, where such a thing could be set up.

I grant thee an internet good sir

GW could follow the style for the IG HWS kit, I created 3 lascannon teams, 3 mortars and 3 ML teams. Definitely worth it, I just needed the bases and the extra models! But yeah

I know there is all this talk of Devastator kits, but the idea is you could buy 2 (expensive, but bear with me), and this gives you enough weapons for 2 fully tailored squads of awesomeness. Its not a bad kit though, you get lots of spare weapons, but I can see how that could be annoying for an SM player on a budget.

scubasteve04 wrote:
I plan on selling them, but its a huge hassle and I probably won't get what I played for them unless I sell every little piece individually (F that)

And risk regretting that on the next edition, when WAAC lists feature MM, HB or PCs, so you will face the exact same problem?

The box is good value for money. It can't cover all options or it would risk becoming the price of a battleforce.

EDIT: The ork killa kans box is a problem, as IMHO is the Burna/Loota box. The old CSM box (8 marines, Heavy Bolter, Plasma gun options) was also somewhat stupid.

Changes to the Glancing table and not remembering Necrons. Hell, a minor errata would suffice.

Designer: "Ok we finished Warhammer 40,000 5th edition. The vehicle rules seem very good and the damage table is tweaked to make them a bit more survivable."

Intern: "But sir, with the glancing table removed and simply a -2 modifier won't that upset the balance of some armies that lack definite Anti-tank?"

Designer: "Screw them, they should have played marines."

I think the Cadian troop box is stupid, the sprues only have options for grenade launcher and flamer, and only a chainsword and laspistol for the sergeant. It would be nice to get at least one of each of the special weapons options. The only variety it has is an arm throwing a grenade and one for holding a lasgun.

When they redid the Basilisk kit they forgot to include a heavy bolter.

With the new Chimera kit if you want a crewman standing in the cupola you have your choice of two non-functional pistols to put in his hands. You do not have the option to have him operate a pintle weapon.

The old Chimera kit contained a bit that is not used by Chimeras because it's covered up by the upper hull. It's included because the sprue is shared with other kits that do use that piece. When the Chimera kit was updated it was updated to have two redundant copies of the piece that it doesn't use, one of which is on the sprue that is exclusive to the Chimera kit.

Raxmei wrote:
When the Chimera kit was updated it was updated to have two redundant copies of the piece that it doesn't use, one of which is on the sprue that is exclusive to the Chimera kit.

Thats pretty funny

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:

Raxmei wrote:
When the Chimera kit was updated it was updated to have two redundant copies of the piece that it doesn't use, one of which is on the sprue that is exclusive to the Chimera kit.

Thats pretty funny

So it was a copy of the pieces it doesn't use, I wasn't sure when I got it, but that is funny that they managed to make a mistake like that.

Now that is genuinely something that makes you ask, 'seriously GW? WTF?'

Dreadnought Kit should have a plasma cannon. Why in the world would it have everything else but the Plasma Cannon?


fething BJORN KIT! OMFG I am so god damn Mother fething pissed off what they did. They finally released it...Only to look like an Ugly "regular Dreadnaught" Does not even come close to looking as extravagant or decorated as a real Venerable dread. especially since Bjorn is by far the Oldest Space Marine that is known to be alive. WORST OF ALL...Its a metal kit which means you can NEVER switch out the weapons. Once the Kit is together you can never give him the other weapons that are available to him.

Its stupid and has the worst weapon option for him out of what is offered.

Take a look at the difference between the Bjorn of GW and the Venerable that can be the Bjorn of Forgeworld that is "cheaper than GW"

GW Bjorn
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440279a&prodId=prod1070016a

ForgeWorld
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space-Marine-Dreadnoughts/SPACE-WOLVES-VENERABLE-DREADNOUGHT.html

See how much better the Forgeworld one looks? Look at the codex too! The GW one looks nothing like the picture.

Vasarto wrote:
fething BJORN KIT! OMFG I am so god damn Mother fething pissed off what they did. They finally released it...Only to look like an Ugly "regular Dreadnaught" Does not even come close to looking as extravagant or decorated as a real Venerable dread. especially since Bjorn is by far the Oldest Space Marine that is known to be alive. WORST OF ALL...Its a metal kit which means you can NEVER switch out the weapons. Once the Kit is together you can never give him the other weapons that are available to him.

The Bjorn the Fell Handed kit is a metal model that's older than you, kid.

The Tyranid FAQ. Enough said.

Brother SRM wrote:

Vasarto wrote:
fething BJORN KIT! OMFG I am so god damn Mother fething pissed off what they did. They finally released it...Only to look like an Ugly "regular Dreadnaught" Does not even come close to looking as extravagant or decorated as a real Venerable dread. especially since Bjorn is by far the Oldest Space Marine that is known to be alive. WORST OF ALL...Its a metal kit which means you can NEVER switch out the weapons. Once the Kit is together you can never give him the other weapons that are available to him.

The Bjorn the Fell Handed kit is a metal model that's older than you, kid.

Yeah, that is a 3rd(if not 2nd) Edition era model that they are simply re-releasing.

Second Ed. I heard it was actually one of the first Dreads to be released, so saying it looks like other dreads should be a compliment, as Bjorn can be considered (one of) the grandfather of all existing dreads.

I thought that was something new they came out with...Oh well than I take that back. I will wait for them to rerelease it at a later time. Maybe since its older I might get it later down the road...still want the FW model though.

Most useless/stupid GW thing i've experienced? I picked up the SW battleforce. actually a good deal for me, or so i thought. The scout force they give you? They come equipped with shotguns. there isn't a single unit in a SW army that can use a shotgun. Could you give them bolters/bolt pistols? sure. but then what are you going to give your other models?

The SW battleforce was thrown together with existing products and two boxes of Space Wolves. I think they expect you to make blood claws with at least 10 of the Space Wolves (hence the advertisment on the box) and use the remaining bolters for the scouts.

Also, I think the misconception that Bjorn is a new model is due to his new color scheme. it makes him look like a contemporary model (as opposed to the old pic they used for the metal BA furioso Dread) rather than a re-released retro model.

I'm a little confused... Doesn't the SW Battleforce just come with the regular Scout sprue? Which has optional shotguns, bolters and BP/CCW?

Ogryns, overpriced, ugly, and worthless.

Space Marine Vanguard. So they are 5 points more than an assault marine, and I need to pay for their jump packs...for 10 points each! Feth that.

not puting extra armour on the russ kit when it's a upgrade?

The Old russ had Extra armor in the form of track guards. are they gone now? (I only have the old russes).

Also, all metal 40mm models are jack. Kroxigors, Ogryns, Fiends, etc.... Not talking about old ones like Wraith Guard or others, but the newer ones, made during the time of the plastic molding technology. There was no reason to make them in metal, since you'd be taking an upwards of 3-10 of those models anyways. Things like Zoanthropes and Tyrant Guards are understandable, as they're not that customizable and (at the time) they probably thought most people would only run one or two instead of full on max units.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:The Old russ had Extra armor in the form of track guards. are they gone now? (I only have the old russes).

Also, all metal 40mm models are jack. Kroxigors, Ogryns, Fiends, etc.... Not talking about old ones like Wraith Guard or others, but the newer ones, made during the time of the plastic molding technology. There was no reason to make them in metal, since you'd be taking an upwards of 3-10 of those models anyways. Things like Zoanthropes and Tyrant Guards are understandable, as they're not that customizable and (at the time) they probably thought most people would only run one or two instead of full on max units.

I don't think people would go out and buy enough Ogryns to field full squads, even if they were plastic. GW would need to write some "gotta have it" rules for people to even consider buying models for them. Not that I wouldn't want them - it would be a hell of a lot nicer than breaking drillbits off inside fat metal models.

halonachos wrote:Ogryns, overpriced, ugly, and worthless.

Convert WHFB Ogres and give them sawed off HBs.

I would. And a guy i play with did. Think he has around 25 or so of them. Apoc is the only time he uses them but still, Some people love their giant stupid puppies with shotguns.

The Devastators box actually has 2 plasma cannons as well.

Terminators.
Why buy the 'normal' squad and the close combat squad when you could get the Wolf Gaurds and magnatise the arms?

SM scouts.
Why not just include the sniper rifles in the same box?

Blood Angels Battleforce.
It's $165 and you get less then what is inluded in the SM Battleforce which is $15 cheaper!

Why would anyone get tactical marines and a rhino for their BA force?

Capt. Rex wrote:Terminators.
Why buy the 'normal' squad and the close combat squad when you could get the Wolf Gaurds and magnatise the arms?

Because I want to do truescale conversions and I need terminator legs and wolfy bits would only make it harder for me?

Kinda surprised nobody has said the Tau Skyray kit. Exact same cost as the Hammerhead... with the exact same sprues as the Hammerhead, with the Skyray turret in there as well.

Brother SRM wrote:I don't think people would go out and buy enough Ogryns to field full squads, even if they were plastic. GW would need to write some "gotta have it" rules for people to even consider buying models for them. Not that I wouldn't want them - it would be a hell of a lot nicer than breaking drillbits off inside fat metal models.

Yeah, I still have to buy a bone-head to have a squad of five, and for that price I can buy a new ork squad or a dark eldar warrior box.

Well, the only reason I have to buy another ogryn was because I picked 4 up for 4€ each, and 5 is such a nice number. Otherwise I wouldn't even consider them... Same as Wraithguard.

Shrike325 wrote:Kinda surprised nobody has said the Tau Skyray kit. Exact same cost as the Hammerhead... with the exact same sprues as the Hammerhead, with the Skyray turret in there as well.

LOL, do you need any bits off the hammerhead sprue for a skyray though?

FM Ninja 048 wrote:

Shrike325 wrote:Kinda surprised nobody has said the Tau Skyray kit. Exact same cost as the Hammerhead... with the exact same sprues as the Hammerhead, with the Skyray turret in there as well.

LOL, do you need any bits off the hammerhead sprue for a skyray though?

I think the extra weapons and the targeter at the bow of the ship are only on the Hammerhead sprue. That's about it though.

And I ahve 10 converted Ogryns made from WHFB Ogres.

Capt. Rex wrote:Terminators.
Why buy the 'normal' squad and the close combat squad when you could get the Wolf Gaurds and magnatise the arms?

SM scouts.
Why not just include the sniper rifles in the same box?

The answer to both these questions is that GW wasn't as good at packing insane amounts of stuff on one sprue as little as 4 years ago. Look at the plastic Space Marine commander kit and compare the sprue economy to the Chaos Terminator Lord kit, or anything else from the last year or two. There's an insane amount of empty sprue.

halonachos wrote:Ogryns, overpriced, ugly, and worthless.

Just use fantasy Ogres...


Edit: oops, Ninja'd by Amaya.

That reminds me. Metal Vets. They can perfectly make them plastic, with all of the associated equipment (they did it with Space Wolves sprue), but they just didnt, and instead gave us metal models (those are really good, just....metal and expensive).

I dont know why they dont make plastic weapon kits

For example:
4 x Ml/Plasmacannon/lascannon/etc (differnt kit for each would only need to be 1 sprue/ blister)
Meltagun and plasmagun (seperate kits 10 of each would be good)
Thunderhammer and stormsheild (5 of each kind of like the assault terminator sprue)
Lightening claws (same 5 of each)

At the moment all the extra weapons are metal blisters i kind of wonder why they arnt plastic (wouldent that also save GW some manufacturing money?)

Gibbsey wrote: i kind of wonder why they arnt plastic (wouldent that also save GW some manufacturing money?)

Metal is more expensive than plastic, sure. But molds for plastic parts are outrageously more expensive than molds for metal parts (like 1000x more expensive).

Hmm...well for starters...the only Assault weap on the SW sprue...a plasma gun...no melta no flamer just a plasma gun...what the chit

second... FAQ....if you got it right the first time you don't need go back and fix it..again...and again....and again...

GW 'customer support'...yeah like they actually know how to support anything but their own dysfunctional asses...ask a question, get a blithering idiotic answer with no context to your original query

and the list goes on and on...

Raptor champion being able to take claws. The only reason that's even an option is because GW made that useless raptor Champion model to go with the five man set.

IG veterans. No kit, just convert your crappy regular guys and paint their shoulder pads something cooler. They need a kit, or at the very least, an upgrade kit.

Hellhounds don't have smoke launchers standard. I believe this has something to do with the option not existing on the sprue, but I could be wrong. 130 points, and they can't just give them to you for free?

DE don't have any reaver jetbike special characters, despite bikes being a huge part of the army.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Raptor champion being able to take claws. The only reason that's even an option is because GW made that useless raptor Champion model to go with the five man set.

IG veterans. No kit, just convert your crappy regular guys and paint their shoulder pads something cooler. They need a kit, or at the very least, an upgrade kit.

Hellhounds don't have smoke launchers standard. I believe this has something to do with the option not existing on the sprue, but I could be wrong. 130 points, and they can't just give them to you for free?

DE don't have any reaver jetbike special characters, despite bikes being a huge part of the army.

Especially since jet bikes characters weren't all that uncommon last book. They made a bunch of cool converted HQs into glorified squad leaders.

Something I didnt see(I went ADOS before i could read everything) but it needs to be said, BA gets flying land raiders, seriously?It's not like they are the cheesiest army in the game.......

Wardragoon wrote:Something I didnt see(I went ADOS before i could read everything) but it needs to be said, BA gets flying land raiders, seriously?It's not like they are the cheesiest army in the game.......

Lol everyone complains about that (fluff wise its them being dropped by a thunderhawk transport swooping down so maybe they should get a str 8 hit when they do it?) but noone in their right mind deepstrikes their landraiders

And didnt you know? our sang preists carry wine to counteract the cheesiness

I have to say I envy elite chaplains (seriously I would throw them with deathwing then haha)

Samus_aran115 wrote:

IG veterans. No kit, just convert your crappy regular guys and paint their shoulder pads something cooler. They need a kit, or at the very least, an upgrade kit.

You can get a small kit from FG
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Cadian_Shock_Troops/CADIAN-UPGRADE-PACK-HARDENED-VETERANS-WITH-SHOTGUNS.html

The problem though is its only 5, and since my army list is pretty much all vets i just bought the Cadian upgrade pack with respirators
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Cadian_Shock_Troops/CADIAN-INFANTRY-SQUAD-WITH-RESPIRATORS-UPGRADE-PACK.html

Grenade launchers.

The real tragedy is that its one of only two options you get with the regular infantry sprue. I can't tell you how many meltaguns I've bought from bitz sites, and how many worthless grenade launchers I have in my bitz box.

... that they're even an option for stormtroopers makes me cry...

A third of the Tyranid codex not existing but Blood Angels needed a second wave first. Oh and they needed their FAQ just as much as Tyranids as well. Because there were so many horribly misworded and functionally broken entries in the BA codex. That are still there. With some having been actively nerfed by the FAQ. As well as nerrfing major rules for the entire codex.

Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. For 1 more point per model you can get Battle Sisters with better armor and stronger weapons.

Amaya wrote:Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. For 1 more point per model you can get Battle Sisters with better armor and stronger weapons.

They can be taken in smaller squads (fits in immos), and have a better special weapons per points spent ratio. They also have access to plasma, while not great these days, 2 plasma guns in a 5 man squad for as cheap as they are will give you opponent pause.

notabot187 wrote:

Amaya wrote:Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. For 1 more point per model you can get Battle Sisters with better armor and stronger weapons.

They can be taken in smaller squads (fits in immos), and have a better special weapons per points spent ratio. They also have access to plasma, while not great these days, 2 plasma guns in a 5 man squad for as cheap as they are will give you opponent pause.

The only thing they have going for them is that they can take plasma and I question the value of plasma in a WH army that isn't pure Inquisition. A squad of Battle Sisters will go through AP2 more often with Flamers and Divine Guidance.

A 5 man Celestian squad in a Rhino /w 2 melta guns is only 15 points more than an IST squad with the same set up and the Celestians always hit on 3+, are Faithful, have better armor, and have higher leadership.

Amaya wrote:

notabot187 wrote:

Amaya wrote:Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. For 1 more point per model you can get Battle Sisters with better armor and stronger weapons.

They can be taken in smaller squads (fits in immos), and have a better special weapons per points spent ratio. They also have access to plasma, while not great these days, 2 plasma guns in a 5 man squad for as cheap as they are will give you opponent pause.

The only thing they have going for them is that they can take plasma and I question the value of plasma in a WH army that isn't pure Inquisition. A squad of Battle Sisters will go through AP2 more often with Flamers and Divine Guidance.

A 5 man Celestian squad in a Rhino /w 2 melta guns is only 15 points more than an IST squad with the same set up and the Celestians always hit on 3+, are Faithful, have better armor, and have higher leadership.

A 5 girl celestian squad is an elite choice. Not a troop choice.

If you are going with a mixed force with IG, you want the cheapest choice possible for the troops, so you can get a big pile of guardsmen. Or if you are playing immo spam, you take 3 units of 5 storm troopers to toss into the HS immolators. Battle sisters as your min WH troops are MUCH more expensive than 70 point storm troopers.

If you are going pure sisters, or nearly pure, and not immo spamming then storm troopers probably aren't good past 500 point games (where they are actually decent).

I'm going to say - the design of the Stormraven is poor. People think it's ugly, and it seems modellers can't help but put the tail section on backwards. I've seen three so far, and the model has only been out for a week or two. The latest was one of GW's own store managers.

It's like a dwarfed pregnant Thunderhawk.

How about this one? (going off of the 3rd ed. codexs)

Eldar and dark eldar weaponry. Eldar get shuirken catapualts that are assualt 2, where as DE get rapid fire weapons.

shoulden't this be reversed, given their story lines, fluff, and playing style. This is something that has irked me for almost 10 years. ( all you AoBR youngsters, stop complaining).

You know not of which you speak.

Chaos Spawn.
Slow and Purposeful in my Fast Attack? Really?

Tyranid Warriors 3packs come with one pair of rending claws, they do however have a completely useless pair of monstrous creature sized scything talons, that do nothing at all.

For bonus points, the rules only allow the entire unit to take rending claws, you can't mix and match.

Necrons being I 2 robots with decent situational awareness (no rule saying otherwise) while Eldar Wraithguard have to stay focused or slip into lala land (and have a rule that covers this) but are I 4..

Ascalam wrote:Necrons being I 2 robots with decent situational awareness (no rule saying otherwise) while Eldar Wraithguard have to stay focused or slip into lala land (and have a rule that covers this) but are I 4..

Then again, Necrons are perceived to be a bit slow. Even in Dawn of War. The Eldar or the opposite with a focus on mobility.

Ascalam wrote:Necrons being I 2 robots with decent situational awareness (no rule saying otherwise) while Eldar Wraithguard have to stay focused or slip into lala land (and have a rule that covers this) but are I 4..

The Lala land part made my day.

Let me make a list....

1. Stormraven. It looks like the mutated inbred cross between a land raider and a valkyrie, with bits tacked on to make it look like a Thunderhawk.
2. Chaos Dreadnoughts. Shooting your own guys half the time with no real benefits to the unit.
3. Drop pods. These seem to be the only things that can't be converted to Chaos. Seriously. What is the secret that makes these things so resistant to the Dark Powers?
4. Ork Anti-Tank power. It doesn't exist. In a metagame where if you don't have 234 Tons of armor on the field, or the stopping power to take care of such armor, you're pretty boned, this is a serious drawback to the Orc Codex.
5. Lack of codex support. Still waiting...
6. Lack of diversification in Chaos Armies. Everyone... and I mean EVERYONE takes Chaos Undivided, fluff-wise. Thousand Sons in a Khorne army ?! MAIM KILL BURN!!!!
7. No 2nd Nid Wave. Nuff said.
8. Ultra marines, Blood Marines, Wolf Marines, Grey Marines, probably soon to come, Black Marines. There's so little to distinct each 'independent' Space Marine chapter, why even bother? Just give the Vanilla marines codex some special characters and rules that act like marks. I mean, the Smurf Marines codes is already way overpriced for no reason anyway, throw the little kids a break, will ya?
9. The broken Imperial Chronometer. It feels like it's been M41Y9999 for a while now, hasn't it? For all the Imperial Support GW gives, you'd think they'd advance their story a bit, huh?
10. Vikings with over 9,000 Rocket Launchers. Did we really need this? Really?
11. In regards to Black Library, make more Xenos material. We get it. Space marines are awesome, and Dan Abnett gives guardsmen the power of 1+saves. What abou the other races? How about a book (series?) explaining major battles of the Imperium, like Armageddon, or the 13th Black Crusade?
12. Descent of Angels. If you've read it, you understand why I bring it up. Not GW's fault, but it's still pretty horrible.
What else? Hmm... Can't really think of anything...
Oh yeah, except 13. The snowstorm from Satan. No, GW, sales did not drop because of the snowstorm. That was a contributing factor, but I can think of a few ways to increase sales.
a. Fantasy Armybook Support.
b. Nids 2nd wave.
c. Dark Eldar 2nd wave.
d. Lower prices on a few things. Lower prices = more bought = More moneh. I can't tell you how many times I've just had a few dollers shy of something. Seriously, I didn't buy an Island of Blood set because I was $6 short.
Finally, f. Advertise more!!! I know that we, as players, are the main source of advertisement, but a new commercial here and there, or maybe a new [good] game once in a while, and you'll get players by the handful!

As a final note, I came to this game through DoW 1. Happy reading, Dakka brothers.

Lord_Of_Morthan wrote:Let me make a list....

1. Stormraven. It looks like the mutated inbred cross between a land raider and a valkyrie, with bits tacked on to make it look like a Thunderhawk.
2. Chaos Dreadnoughts. Shooting your own guys half the time with no real benefits to the unit.
3. Drop pods. These seem to be the only things that can't be converted to Chaos. Seriously. What is the secret that makes these things so resistant to the Dark Powers?
4. Ork Anti-Tank power. It doesn't exist. In a metagame where if you don't have 234 Tons of armor on the field, or the stopping power to take care of such armor, you're pretty boned, this is a serious drawback to the Orc Codex.
5. Lack of codex support. Still waiting...
6. Lack of diversification in Chaos Armies. Everyone... and I mean EVERYONE takes Chaos Undivided, fluff-wise. Thousand Sons in a Khorne army ?! MAIM KILL BURN!!!!
7. No 2nd Nid Wave. Nuff said.
8. Ultra marines, Blood Marines, Wolf Marines, Grey Marines, probably soon to come, Black Marines. There's so little to distinct each 'independent' Space Marine chapter, why even bother? Just give the Vanilla marines codex some special characters and rules that act like marks. I mean, the Smurf Marines codes is already way overpriced for no reason anyway, throw the little kids a break, will ya?
9. The broken Imperial Chronometer. It feels like it's been M41Y9999 for a while now, hasn't it? For all the Imperial Support GW gives, you'd think they'd advance their story a bit, huh?
10. Vikings with over 9,000 Rocket Launchers. Did we really need this? Really?
11. In regards to Black Library, make more Xenos material. We get it. Space marines are awesome, and Dan Abnett gives guardsmen the power of 1+saves. What abou the other races? How about a book (series?) explaining major battles of the Imperium, like Armageddon, or the 13th Black Crusade?
12. Descent of Angels. If you've read it, you understand why I bring it up. Not GW's fault, but it's still pretty horrible.
What else? Hmm... Can't really think of anything...
Oh yeah, except 13. The snowstorm from Satan. No, GW, sales did not drop because of the snowstorm. That was a contributing factor, but I can think of a few ways to increase sales.
a. Fantasy Armybook Support.
b. Nids 2nd wave.
c. Dark Eldar 2nd wave.
d. Lower prices on a few things. Lower prices = more bought = More moneh. I can't tell you how many times I've just had a few dollers shy of something. Seriously, I didn't buy an Island of Blood set because I was $6 short.
Finally, f. Advertise more!!! I know that we, as players, are the main source of advertisement, but a new commercial here and there, or maybe a new [good] game once in a while, and you'll get players by the handful!

As a final note, I came to this game through DoW 1. Happy reading, Dakka brothers.

Oy, that's a huge list

Chaos dreadnoughts don't shoot your own guys 'half of the time'. Only 1/6 th of the time

scubasteve04 wrote:Devistator Squad Box: Don't get me started on this mess of a kit. A sarge with a boltgun and chainsword? Awsome weapon combo, who needs a pistol?? 2 Heavy bolters, 2 Lascannons, 1 Multimelta, 1 Missile Launcher and 1 Plasmacannon (IIRC) and 5 marine bodies gives you the ability to build one godamn useless devistator squad. There should be a Missile Launcher Devistator squad with a sarge and 4 missiles, a Plasmacannon devistator squad with 4 PCs and a sargeant, and so on.

No.

Buy two boxes.

Solved.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Lord_Of_Morthan wrote:Let me make a list....

1. Stormraven. It looks like the mutated inbred cross between a land raider and a valkyrie, with bits tacked on to make it look like a Thunderhawk.
2. Chaos Dreadnoughts. Shooting your own guys half the time with no real benefits to the unit.
3. Drop pods. These seem to be the only things that can't be converted to Chaos. Seriously. What is the secret that makes these things so resistant to the Dark Powers?
4. Ork Anti-Tank power. It doesn't exist. In a metagame where if you don't have 234 Tons of armor on the field, or the stopping power to take care of such armor, you're pretty boned, this is a serious drawback to the Orc Codex.
5. Lack of codex support. Still waiting...
6. Lack of diversification in Chaos Armies. Everyone... and I mean EVERYONE takes Chaos Undivided, fluff-wise. Thousand Sons in a Khorne army ?! MAIM KILL BURN!!!!
7. No 2nd Nid Wave. Nuff said.
8. Ultra marines, Blood Marines, Wolf Marines, Grey Marines, probably soon to come, Black Marines. There's so little to distinct each 'independent' Space Marine chapter, why even bother? Just give the Vanilla marines codex some special characters and rules that act like marks. I mean, the Smurf Marines codes is already way overpriced for no reason anyway, throw the little kids a break, will ya?
9. The broken Imperial Chronometer. It feels like it's been M41Y9999 for a while now, hasn't it? For all the Imperial Support GW gives, you'd think they'd advance their story a bit, huh?
10. Vikings with over 9,000 Rocket Launchers. Did we really need this? Really?
11. In regards to Black Library, make more Xenos material. We get it. Space marines are awesome, and Dan Abnett gives guardsmen the power of 1+saves. What abou the other races? How about a book (series?) explaining major battles of the Imperium, like Armageddon, or the 13th Black Crusade?
12. Descent of Angels. If you've read it, you understand why I bring it up. Not GW's fault, but it's still pretty horrible.
What else? Hmm... Can't really think of anything...
Oh yeah, except 13. The snowstorm from Satan. No, GW, sales did not drop because of the snowstorm. That was a contributing factor, but I can think of a few ways to increase sales.
a. Fantasy Armybook Support.
b. Nids 2nd wave.
c. Dark Eldar 2nd wave.
d. Lower prices on a few things. Lower prices = more bought = More moneh. I can't tell you how many times I've just had a few dollers shy of something. Seriously, I didn't buy an Island of Blood set because I was $6 short.
Finally, f. Advertise more!!! I know that we, as players, are the main source of advertisement, but a new commercial here and there, or maybe a new [good] game once in a while, and you'll get players by the handful!

As a final note, I came to this game through DoW 1. Happy reading, Dakka brothers.

Oy, that's a huge list

Chaos dreadnoughts don't shoot your own guys 'half of the time'. Only 1/6 th of the time

And another 1/6 of the time, they get Fleet and Rage. Both results can work to your benefit if you keep 'em on the front lines.

My take on your list

1. Stormraven. It looks like the mutated inbred cross between a land raider and a valkyrie, with bits tacked on to make it look like a Thunderhawk.

I really dont get the hate on the storm raven. I personally think it looks good. IMHO I think most of the hate is just running with the crowd.

2. Chaos Dreadnoughts. Shooting your own guys half the time with no real benefits to the unit.

Its not 1/2 but you can also use it to your advantage, AND its really fluffy

3. Drop pods. These seem to be the only things that can't be converted to Chaos. Seriously. What is the secret that makes these things so resistant to the Dark Powers?

This I agree on. Infact I agree on this on many wargear points. "Plasma cannon? WTF Is a plasma cannon? Oh that thing on the crazy dred, dear god WE cant use that!"

4. Ork Anti-Tank power. It doesn't exist. In a metagame where if you don't have 234 Tons of armor on the field, or the stopping power to take care of such armor, you're pretty boned, this is a serious drawback to the Orc Codex.

Well Orks have ways to pop av14 but it isnt as easy as it should be. The fastest way, relies on a BW that is in all honesty, easier to blow up then we wish it was. The other way, is Kans/Dreds and hope we can get there and not have to roll 6s.

5. Lack of codex support. Still waiting...

I agree

6. Lack of diversification in Chaos Armies. Everyone... and I mean EVERYONE takes Chaos Undivided, fluff-wise. Thousand Sons in a Khorne army ?! MAIM KILL BURN!!!!

I agree. This completely turned me off of Chaos. Ill never go back. Heres to taking an Army that is probably the most diverse fluff wise out there, and gaking on it

7. No 2nd Nid Wave. Nuff said.

Uhm, this doesnt bother me so much. Orks are STILL waiting on things that are in the codex. Its kindda the nature of GW right. I mean, do you REALLY think all the armies will get an update?

8. Ultra marines, Blood Marines, Wolf Marines, Grey Marines, probably soon to come, Black Marines. There's so little to distinct each 'independent' Space Marine chapter, why even bother? Just give the Vanilla marines codex some special characters and rules that act like marks. I mean, the Smurf Marines codes is already way overpriced for no reason anyway, throw the little kids a break, will ya?

I completely agree on this and have said this many times. SC should have special rules that change how the armies play and then you go from there. Not make 15 different codices for some damn reason. You know the Xenos players would LOVE some attention

9. The broken Imperial Chronometer. It feels like it's been M41Y9999 for a while now, hasn't it? For all the Imperial Support GW gives, you'd think they'd advance their story a bit, huh?

I just want the Emperor to finally die. I want to see what happens story wise. Seriously, itll be good

10. Vikings with over 9,000 Rocket Launchers. Did we really need this? Really?

I havnt been a huge fan of the wolves for a long time. But uhm... ya. Orks can spam the hell out of rokkits, but our BS makes it not so over powered. SW on the other hand

11. In regards to Black Library, make more Xenos material. We get it. Space marines are awesome, and Dan Abnett gives guardsmen the power of 1+saves. What abou the other races? How about a book (series?) explaining major battles of the Imperium, like Armageddon, or the 13th Black Crusade?

I agree completely on this. I once made a thread asking for books that featured Orks. I was told "well they made books with Orks dying in them!" Gee, because thats what I want to read. How 1 guardsmen single handedly stopped the biggest WAAAAGH1 known to man

12. Descent of Angels. If you've read it, you understand why I bring it up. Not GW's fault, but it's still pretty horrible.
What else? Hmm... Can't really think of anything...

Again, no idea

13. The snowstorm from Satan. No, GW, sales did not drop because of the snowstorm. That was a contributing factor, but I can think of a few ways to increase sales.
a. Fantasy Armybook Support.
b. Nids 2nd wave.
c. Dark Eldar 2nd wave.
d. Lower prices on a few things. Lower prices = more bought = More moneh. I can't tell you how many times I've just had a few dollers shy of something. Seriously, I didn't buy an Island of Blood set because I was $6 short.
Finally, f. Advertise more!!! I know that we, as players, are the main source of advertisement, but a new commercial here and there, or maybe a new [good] game once in a while, and you'll get players by the handful!

Hey its the new GW. They jack prices. If you came into 40k from DOW, then you should be used to it. I started years ago, Infact I learned when I was like 13ish, thesets are probably 3 or more times the cost now.

Henners91 wrote:

scubasteve04 wrote:Devistator Squad Box: Don't get me started on this mess of a kit. A sarge with a boltgun and chainsword? Awsome weapon combo, who needs a pistol?? 2 Heavy bolters, 2 Lascannons, 1 Multimelta, 1 Missile Launcher and 1 Plasmacannon (IIRC) and 5 marine bodies gives you the ability to build one godamn useless devistator squad. There should be a Missile Launcher Devistator squad with a sarge and 4 missiles, a Plasmacannon devistator squad with 4 PCs and a sargeant, and so on.

No.

Buy two boxes.

Solved.

Nope i think you would still need 2 x multi-melta and 2 x missile launchers to make a full squad of either

Waiting more than 13 years to update aspects of a miniatures line like Sisters of Battle. The basic trooper has remained unchanged for 13+ years. Between the age and price of the line its no wonder Sisters aren't going to sell well in this day and age.

Stormraven model.

wtf?

Imagine a dread where the gap is. It'll look fine. I think all the hate for it is because the 'popular faces' of dakka hate it.

Lord_Of_Morthan wrote:3. Drop pods. These seem to be the only things that can't be converted to Chaos. Seriously. What is the secret that makes these things so resistant to the Dark Powers?

Razorbacks. Attack Bikes. Landspeeders. Land Raider Variants.

The point of having different codexes is that they are differenct.

9. The broken Imperial Chronometer. It feels like it's been M41Y9999 for a while now, hasn't it? For all the Imperial Support GW gives, you'd think they'd advance their story a bit, huh?

Not going to happen. The 'current' time of the story just sets the stage for the game. They have around 10000 years of backstory to flesh out without needing to upset the cart by changing the current setting.

d. Lower prices on a few things. Lower prices = more bought = More moneh.

That equation isn't necessarily true. It also doesn't automatically equate to more profit, which is ultimately what it's all about.

Scout biker shotguns, why?

Because of relic models. Older rules edition models had them. Rule enables players with older models to field them.

Because shotguns and bikers are kewl (see terminator 2).

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:Imagine a dread where the gap is. It'll look fine. I think all the hate for it is because the 'popular faces' of dakka hate it.

Agreed. I happen to like it, compared to other things GW (and it's affiliates) have released. The caestus doesn't fit any fluff AND is pretty ugly (In a way, the stormraven is too)

Samus_aran115 wrote:Raptor champion being able to take claws. The only reason that's even an option is because GW made that useless raptor Champion model to go with the five man set.

Well all aspiring champions used to be able to take lightning claws, plus tons of other stuff.

On a related note, the raptor box is pretty bad. 2 raptors, 2 with melta, and one champion. Now if I want to buy more raptors to fill out the squad I need to buy blisters of "normal" raptors. They should've made plastic raptors instead of plastic spawn I think - raptors being slightly more useful.

How about the fact that the only Tzeentch cult marines are Thousand Sons? Are there no other cult marines out there? Maybe some that aren't tied to a specific legion?

The Noise Marine box only has 2 sonic weapons.

Plague marines still come in a box of 7 and cost like a box of 10.

Um ... Obliterators got nerfed yet got a points increase.

Lack of psychic defense for a lot of armies in a time when certain new books have *awesome* psychic powers.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:Imagine a dread where the gap is. It'll look fine. I think all the hate for it is because the 'popular faces' of dakka hate it.

Agreed. I happen to like it, compared to other things GW (and it's affiliates) have released. The caestus doesn't fit any fluff AND is pretty ugly (In a way, the stormraven is too)

Except the Raven is a good kind of ugly. It fits with all SM vehicles. My only dislike for it, is that the turret wouldn't be able to aim down. It still looks cool, but I don't know if it would even work

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:Imagine a dread where the gap is. It'll look fine. I think all the hate for it is because the 'popular faces' of dakka hate it.

Agreed. I happen to like it, compared to other things GW (and it's affiliates) have released. The caestus doesn't fit any fluff AND is pretty ugly (In a way, the stormraven is too)

Except the Raven is a good kind of ugly. It fits with all SM vehicles. My only dislike for it, is that the turret wouldn't be able to aim down. It still looks cool, but I don't know if it would even work

It's still a toaster with wings. Can't really get around that. Removing and changing some items will make it better.

AS for stupidity, I say it's letting Matt Ward write dexs Or it's the fact they still use pewter when plastic quality is on the rise. Seriously GW step it up.

Juvieus Kaine wrote:

AS for stupidity, I say it's letting Matt Ward write dexs Or it's the fact they still use pewter when plastic quality is on the rise. Seriously GW step it up.

but it's the economics behing the metal models, they're not going to sell 10 Marneus Calgars to each player, so spending £10,000 on a mould for a character is just to expensive. but you need 5/10/20 tactical squads/terma-gaunt squads etc. so they'll make the money back

FM Ninja 048 wrote:

Juvieus Kaine wrote:

AS for stupidity, I say it's letting Matt Ward write dexs Or it's the fact they still use pewter when plastic quality is on the rise. Seriously GW step it up.

but it's the economics behing the metal models, they're not going to sell 10 Marneus Calgars to each player, so spending £10,000 on a mould for a character is just to expensive. but you need 5/10/20 tactical squads/terma-gaunt squads etc. so they'll make the money back

Or they go broke when everyone gives up on paying £30 for a box of 10 guys when the prices hit that mark

WTB A 'Nid 2nd wave of all of the models they "forgot" to make (and have had over a year now to give us...). Even if they just get us a harpy and a tyrannofex, there are plenty of other options for the other units out there.

Also with the 'Nids... how a psyker can sit comfortably in his vehicle using his powers... however is unaffected by Shadow of the warp ...

a 16 point Bloodletter that deepstrikes and only has a 5+ save. Seriously, they could at least let them charge on the turn in lieu of running.

I think it's great that a transport protects you from Shadow in the Warp. It shows that the Nids aren't an unbeatable alien swarm after all. Maybe that other galaxy they ate didn't have any transports?

I definately have to vote on paying 26 points a model and not even knowing what the hell they do (Possessed)....

idk 41 points for a 2 wound melee model isnt worth it to me (wraith)

And making it 41 points not 40, when they come in 3's

It makes it a pain for listbuilding math..

insaniak wrote:

9. The broken Imperial Chronometer. It feels like it's been M41Y9999 for a while now, hasn't it? For all the Imperial Support GW gives, you'd think they'd advance their story a bit, huh?

Not going to happen. The 'current' time of the story just sets the stage for the game. They have around 10000 years of backstory to flesh out without needing to upset the cart by changing the current setting.

I don't know about that. Shortly after I started playing was when the Horus Heresy was the present day setting, not ten thousand years later.

Although it was still Warhammer 40,000. I can't really explain that one.

The Horus Heresy has never been the 'present' setting. Even back when the Heresy was introduced into the fluff, it was something that had happened long in the 'past'.

The storyline has advanced slightly in recent years with the 13th Black Crusade and the 3rd Armageddon War... but GW then stopped and took stock, and have said publicly that they don't want to advance past the end of the 'current' year. They're more interested in fleshing out the backstory instead.

Personally, I think people get too caight up in wanting to see what happens 'next' while there's still so much of what happened 'before' to find out about. Particularly since games aren't really intended to be solely based in the 'present' time, as evidenced by the number of Special Characters available in codexes despite being (so far as the 'present time' is concerned) long dead.

I think that the Horus Heresy was current for the first edition of Adeptus Titanicus.

Well, yes, I should probably have said that the Horus Heresy was never 'present' day, other than in offshoot games that were set during the Horus Heresy...

Bookwrack wrote:I know I'm asking a lot here, but how about you stop and think for a second?

If only there were other people who also played this game, who, like you, might have models they have no intention of using but might, perhaps, be willing to exchange them, to, dare I say it, trade their unused models for yours?

Ah, who am I kidding? Even if there were other people out there with unused models besides you (which I doubt) it's not like there's anyway they could communicate with each other, no gathering place, no 'messaging board,' if you will, where such a thing could be set up.

OH HAHAHAHA I get it because we post on a 40K message board and that makes GW's incompetence excusable!

Sorry, I am right with the other guy. It's asinine that I'm going to need to spend probably another 30-40 dollars on Ebay to outfit my Long Fangs in a way that isn't 100 percent slowed.

As for other GW stupidity... I think GW just hates money. Thunderwolf Cav are a highly desirable unit and there are no models. There aren't even wolves in any GW range that don't look stupid supporting a Space Marine. Just make some and sell them for $$$.

The more egregious example though is 13th Co. Wulfen. They made models for them for I believe Eye of Terror. They are long OOP and boxes of 5 (!) metal models are going for close to $100 on Ebay because they look awesome and people really want them for Mark of the Wulfen. Just make some more and reap the profits!

You don't have to spend anything. The box gives you a legal unit. If you want to outfit the unit in a way that makes it fit your perception of what is better, that's up to you.

There are quite a few current box sets that could be better. I would certainly agree that a set should include bits to cover each of the wargear options available to that unit. But covering every possible combination of multiples of that gear? That's getting a little impractically extreme.

insaniak wrote:You don't have to spend anything. The box gives you a legal unit. If you want to outfit the unit in a way that makes it fit your perception of what is better, that's up to you.

There are quite a few current box sets that could be better. I would certainly agree that a set should include bits to cover each of the wargear options available to that unit. But covering every possible combination of multiples of that gear? That's getting a little impractically extreme.

I don't think anyone is advocating a box containing every single permutation. But I think maybe they could either add in more options than "1 each of crappy weapons." Personally I'd love to see a "Heavy Weapons box" that comes with arm sprues or several copies of all marine heavy weapons. GW makes some extra money, I don't get gouged online, everyone wins.

Edit: Actually I just opened my box of Devastators recently and I am relatively sure it comes with 2 of everything BUT the missile launcher, which is slightly more annoying being that the launcher seems to be the far and away favorite.

Y'know I think I would be fine having to pick up a 30$ box of devastators with no weapons and like a 15$ box of bits that includes like 5 Missilie launchers lascannon ETC.

Brother Gyoken wrote:Edit: Actually I just opened my box of Devastators recently and I am relatively sure it comes with 2 of everything BUT the missile launcher, which is slightly more annoying being that the launcher seems to be the far and away favorite.

It's also the heavy weapon that comes with the tac squad, and so it's not going to be in short supply, especially if you buy an extra box or two so that you can use all the weapons that come in the Devastator box - 2x LCs, HBs, and PCs, with 1x ML and MM. The problem seems to be that you're not satisfied the box isn't specifically tailored to meet your needs, that it instead provides a broad assortment of models that will meet the general customer requirements while generating the least additional inventory.

Bookwrack wrote:

Brother Gyoken wrote:Edit: Actually I just opened my box of Devastators recently and I am relatively sure it comes with 2 of everything BUT the missile launcher, which is slightly more annoying being that the launcher seems to be the far and away favorite.

It's also the heavy weapon that comes with the tac squad, and so it's not going to be in short supply, especially if you buy an extra box or two so that you can use all the weapons that come in the Devastator box - 2x LCs, HBs, and PCs, with 1x ML and MM. The problem seems to be that you're not satisfied the box isn't specifically tailored to meet your needs, that it instead provides a broad assortment of models that will meet the general customer requirements while generating the least additional inventory.

The point is that ML is a popular choice but the devestator squad doesent come with any so for 2 dev ml squads i need to find 6 ML and since im using BA with assault squads that can be a problem.

Also the box may be fine by its self its just a lack of weapon sprues

Bookwrack wrote:

Brother Gyoken wrote:Edit: Actually I just opened my box of Devastators recently and I am relatively sure it comes with 2 of everything BUT the missile launcher, which is slightly more annoying being that the launcher seems to be the far and away favorite.

It's also the heavy weapon that comes with the tac squad, and so it's not going to be in short supply, especially if you buy an extra box or two so that you can use all the weapons that come in the Devastator box - 2x LCs, HBs, and PCs, with 1x ML and MM. The problem seems to be that you're not satisfied the box isn't specifically tailored to meet your needs, that it instead provides a broad assortment of models that will meet the general customer requirements while generating the least additional inventory.

The fact I can acquire them from a third party is 100 percent irrelevant to this conversation. GW's stance isn't (or at least shouldn't be) "Go get stuff from your friends." It has nothing to do with being specifically tailored for MY needs so much as the average player. An informal poll around my FLGS has come up with the result "MLs are awesome" so maybe they should just include that second ML and everyone will be happy.

Noisy_Marine wrote:I think it's great that a transport protects you from Shadow in the Warp. It shows that the Nids aren't an unbeatable alien swarm after all. Maybe that other galaxy they ate didn't have any transports?

The other galaxy finally invented them, so the nids are fleeing the horrible plague of of psykic light armored personnel carriers.

How old is the devastator box? The plastic IG heavy weapons box does come with all possible heavy weapons and their newer vehicles have mostly been coming with all options as well.

The way I see it the Dev box could have just as easily come with one of each HW and not even included the Multi-Melta.

I think the current box is good, especially compared to all the previous Dev Boxes.

Brother Gyoken wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:

Brother Gyoken wrote:Edit: Actually I just opened my box of Devastators recently and I am relatively sure it comes with 2 of everything BUT the missile launcher, which is slightly more annoying being that the launcher seems to be the far and away favorite.

It's also the heavy weapon that comes with the tac squad, and so it's not going to be in short supply, especially if you buy an extra box or two so that you can use all the weapons that come in the Devastator box - 2x LCs, HBs, and PCs, with 1x ML and MM. The problem seems to be that you're not satisfied the box isn't specifically tailored to meet your needs, that it instead provides a broad assortment of models that will meet the general customer requirements while generating the least additional inventory.

The fact I can acquire them from a third party is 100 percent irrelevant to this conversation. GW's stance isn't (or at least shouldn't be) "Go get stuff from your friends." It has nothing to do with being specifically tailored for MY needs so much as the average player. An informal poll around my FLGS has come up with the result "MLs are awesome" so maybe they should just include that second ML and everyone will be happy.

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data.'

Bookwrack wrote:
The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data.'

Good point. Your being deliberately obtuse negates the fact that multiple missile launchers are seen in pretty much every competitive marine list.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:a 16 point Bloodletter that deepstrikes and only has a 5+ save. Seriously, they could at least let them charge on the turn in lieu of running.

Um, you do realise they (and a lot of other things in the Daemon book) are specifically underpriced to offset the fact they cannot charge on the turn they deepstrike? A Bloodletter should cost about 25pts if it could charge, besides you only need about 3 to reliably wipe out a SM squad.

Yet you think they're overpriced? To use an oft quoted meme: "Playing Daemons: You're doing it wrong!"

Wardragoon wrote:idk 41 points for a 2 wound melee model isnt worth it to me (wraith)

Wraiths have 1 wound fella and are simply one of the best tankbusting units Necrons have at their disposal right now due to Gauss' nerfing.

Wraiths still suck. Give them rending and you might be lucky to justify 30 points.

Brother Gyoken wrote:Good point. Your being deliberately obtuse negates the fact that multiple missile launchers are seen in pretty much every competitive marine list.

Nah Bookshelf's right. Your beef is that it doesn't come with heaps of Missile Launchers and that GW's policy shouldn't be 'get it from friends'. That's not GW's policy. GW's policy is "BUY MOAR!!!". They don't want you to buy a Dev Box, they want you to buy five Dev boxes.

Really, the Dev box is fine. It has 8 heavy weapons in there, and doesn't leave any out. Considering the Dev boxes of the past, this is a marked improvement. Who cares if your Long Fang's suffer? That's neither GW's concern or problem.

Fafnir wrote:Wraiths still suck. Give them rending and you might be lucky to justify 30 points.

Wraiths do not "suck" me ode. Whilst they are certainly overpriced in the context of the modern game (as are many other Necron units), "sucking" is something they certainly do not do. With a new Necron codex either keep them their current cost (okay, drop by 1 pt ) and give them Rending and increase their squad size, or keep current stats and drop their points.

Wraiths go through tanks (except Land Raiders) quicker than a Vindaloo and Lager combo on a Man's digestive system.

Grimtuff wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Wraiths still suck. Give them rending and you might be lucky to justify 30 points.

Wraiths do not "suck" me ode. Whilst they are certainly overpriced in the context of the modern game (as are many other Necron units), "sucking" is something they certainly do not do. With a new Necron codex either keep them their current cost (okay, drop by 1 pt ) and give them Rending and increase their squad size, or keep current stats and drop their points.

Yes, wraiths do indeed 'suck.' They cost way too much, and do crap all to justify it. They get torn to ribbons by bolter fire, they get shredded by any real close combat unit, and can't do nearly enough damage to justify their cost.

Wraiths go through tanks (except Land Raiders) quicker than a Vindaloo and Lager combo on a Man's digestive system.

I'm going to have to call bs right around... there. The only tanks they'll be popping reliably, assuming they aren't quickly torn to pieces under a torrent of fire, will be dedicated transports, which generally cost way less than what you're throwing at them.

It makes it worse when they have to compete for space with Destroyers, which just so happen to be one of the very few legitimately good Necron units.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Brother Gyoken wrote:Good point. Your being deliberately obtuse negates the fact that multiple missile launchers are seen in pretty much every competitive marine list.

Nah Bookshelf's right. Your beef is that it doesn't come with heaps of Missile Launchers and that GW's policy shouldn't be 'get it from friends'. That's not GW's policy. GW's policy is "BUY MOAR!!!". They don't want you to buy a Dev Box, they want you to buy five Dev boxes.

Really, the Dev box is fine. It has 8 heavy weapons in there, and doesn't leave any out. Considering the Dev boxes of the past, this is a marked improvement. Who cares if your Long Fang's suffer? That's neither GW's concern or problem.

BM does have a point - for something like Long Fangs there's no good solution and that is deeply irritating, but since in the case of anything else, 2x Devastator kits and 2xTac marine kits gives you 4x of everything except multi-meltas. If that is not enough to feed your deep and abiding craving for hot rockets, again, your complaint is that GW doesn't design its kits to cater specifically to you. If only there were places out there that sold specific parts, so that you didn't have to buy entire boxes to get the exact gear you want for your army... oh well, it's a good dream.

Bookwrack wrote:BM does have a point - for something like Long Fangs there's no good solution and that is deeply irritating, but since in the case of anything else, 2x Devastator kits and 2xTac marine kits gives you 4x of everything except multi-meltas. If that is not enough to feed your deep and abiding craving for hot rockets, again, your complaint is that GW doesn't design its kits to cater specifically to you. If only there were places out there that sold specific parts, so that you didn't have to buy entire boxes to get the exact gear you want for your army... oh well, it's a good dream.

Oh they are out there if you want to pay 7 or so dollars each launcher at a lot of bits stores. Its nearly double what you might pay for any other heavy weapon bit. The price is that high because of demand though.

Can't you buy specific SM heavy weapons troopers on the GW website? Their a little pricey, but it is an option. And really, if your overly irritated by the price tag, this probably isen't a hobby for you to begin with.

I don't understand all this bitching about rocket launchers. Every tactical squad comes with one, and if you've played Marines for any amount of time you should have tons of them.

Cortez667 wrote:Can't you buy specific SM heavy weapons troopers on the GW website? Their a little pricey, but it is an option. And really, if your overly irritated by the price tag, this probably isen't a hobby for you to begin with.

Yes you can but not missile launchers. They aren't on there. MM, Plasma Cannon, Heavy Bolter and Lascannon are however.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother SRM wrote:I don't understand all this bitching about rocket launchers. Every tactical squad comes with one, and if you've played Marines for any amount of time you should have tons of them.

Chances are you are already using it in your tactical squad. I know I do. Typically I am fielding at least 6 missile launchers even at 1000 points.

andrewm9 wrote:
Chances are you are already using it in your tactical squad. I know I do. Typically I am fielding at least 6 missile launchers even at 1000 points.

Solution:
1. Take rocket launcher out of tactical squad.
2. Put rocket launcher in devastator/Long Fang squad.
3. Put plasma cannon, heavy bolter, multimelta, or what have you in space the tactical rocket used to occupy.
4. Damn that's a fine plasma cannon.

There is a huge shortage of ML compared to the other heavy weapons circulated by the Dev box. For example, thewarstore.com has the ML listed for 14.99 USD while all the other heavy weapons are 4.99 (yes thats 75 dollars to kit one long fangs unit). There is not a single Devastator (or tactical) Missile Launcher for sale in all of canada on ebay, yet I can find the other heavy weapons in my own city.

GW could keep the current devastator box in circulation, and release a "Devastator Missile booster pack" with 4-5 Missile launchers and a few extra bits for space wolves ect.

With the massive amount of people running Missiles these days, you know they will sell.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Nah Bookshelf's right. Your beef is that it doesn't come with heaps of Missile Launchers and that GW's policy shouldn't be 'get it from friends'. That's not GW's policy. GW's policy is "BUY MOAR!!!". They don't want you to buy a Dev Box, they want you to buy five Dev boxes.

GW stupidity, in my book, is exactly as i quoted H.B.M.C. for.
- They seem to develop codices, so that people needs to buy more stuff. Lower price tags on vehicles equals more vehicles sold. It doesn't cost GW a fraction of a dollar/pound to add another sprue, so that a Dev-squad can get all ML's or MM's for their Vulkan list.

Not really sure i'd call it stupidity, to be frank. But it seems it's all with the $'es in mind whenever they make something new.
- Not to mention that alot of armies gets "left behind"... (Necrons anyone?)

Is it not posible to use IG MLs...with abit of work I'm sure they would fit.

scubasteve04 wrote:There is a huge shortage of ML compared to the other heavy weapons circulated by the Dev box. For example, thewarstore.com has the ML listed for 14.99 USD while all the other heavy weapons are 4.99 (yes thats 75 dollars to kit one long fangs unit). There is not a single Devastator (or tactical) Missile Launcher for sale in all of canada on ebay, yet I can find the other heavy weapons in my own city.

No, remember.... Anecdotes do not equal data!

Ribon Fox wrote:Is it not posible to use IG MLs...with abit of work I'm sure they would fit.

I'm sure you could do all kinds of crazy conversion works to save your bucks. But i can hardly concur with the thinking behind NOT giving people free options. Especially not taking into consideration, how all of their products prices keeps rising to astonishing heights...

Brother Gyoken wrote:

scubasteve04 wrote:There is a huge shortage of ML compared to the other heavy weapons circulated by the Dev box. For example, thewarstore.com has the ML listed for 14.99 USD while all the other heavy weapons are 4.99 (yes thats 75 dollars to kit one long fangs unit). There is not a single Devastator (or tactical) Missile Launcher for sale in all of canada on ebay, yet I can find the other heavy weapons in my own city.

No, remember.... Anecdotes do not equal data!

That's data, not an anecdote, genius.

People are complaining about the scarcity of missile launchers and saying GW should release more of them per pack. 2 reasons this does not compute:
first of all, this demand is a trend, the devestator box was released before it came along, and packaging is not really meant to be changed on short notice like this. They don't/can't change every model kit and the weapons it includes, every time the rules make one or another choice more fashionable.
Second, none of you guys are taking multi-melta+plasma cannon devestator squads due to this scandalous lack of missile launchers, are you now? No, you're seeking out other GW bits to build your armies. So why should GW do anything differently? It ain't hurting their sales one bit.

They should ONLY have missile launchers in the box, that way when the 6e rules come out (making them worthless-if even an option) folks can complain that they have so many. . .instead of complaining they have so many options that they do not want to utilize.

Brother Gyoken wrote:

scubasteve04 wrote:There is a huge shortage of ML compared to the other heavy weapons circulated by the Dev box. For example, thewarstore.com has the ML listed for 14.99 USD while all the other heavy weapons are 4.99 (yes thats 75 dollars to kit one long fangs unit). There is not a single Devastator (or tactical) Missile Launcher for sale in all of canada on ebay, yet I can find the other heavy weapons in my own city.

No, remember.... Anecdotes do not equal data!

Stating that a missile launcher is unavailable across an entire country of 35 million via EBAY while all other heavy weapons are, is not an anecdote.

F A C E P A L M back at ya


Also, considering good chunk competitive players are run SW with 15+ ML Long fangs, and the 40$ devastator kit comes with a SINGLE MISSILE LAUNCHER, and they cannot be obtained in singles from Games workshop (Most of SM players USE their Missiles when buying a tactical squad box), then logic dicates that there is indeed a shortage.

I am not a business man, but I am pretty sure if GW invests in a single ML packed sprue to sell on their website and/or in store, they will sell like crazy until at least the release of 6th edition and they can make their money back.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:People are complaining about the scarcity of missile launchers and saying GW should release more of them per pack. 2 reasons this does not compute:
first of all, this demand is a trend, the devestator box was released before it came along, and packaging is not really meant to be changed on short notice like this. They don't/can't change every model kit and the weapons it includes, every time the rules make one or another choice more fashionable.
Second, none of you guys are taking multi-melta+plasma cannon devestator squads due to this scandalous lack of missile launchers, are you now? No, you're seeking out other GW bits to build your armies. So why should GW do anything differently? It ain't hurting their sales one bit.

Excellent point. And you're right. As long as it doesn't hurt their sales, then why lift a finger?
- Although, as i write earlier on, i hardly believe GW will go bankrupt from adding another sprue with more ML's/MM's to the Dev-box. But then again, with your excellent point; Why should they? It doesn't hurt their sales!

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:People are complaining about the scarcity of missile launchers and saying GW should release more of them per pack. 2 reasons this does not compute:
first of all, this demand is a trend, the devestator box was released before it came along, and packaging is not really meant to be changed on short notice like this. They don't/can't change every model kit and the weapons it includes, every time the rules make one or another choice more fashionable.
Second, none of you guys are taking multi-melta+plasma cannon devestator squads due to this scandalous lack of missile launchers, are you now? No, you're seeking out other GW bits to build your armies. So why should GW do anything differently? It ain't hurting their sales one bit.

I highlight this bit as a bit of stupidity. Why would they give you weapons to use and yet make them so unappealing to the majority that noboy bothers with them? I mean if you wanted a balanced codex you make it so every unit is just as good as the next, there is no "must-have-uber-unit-of-death!!!!" or "this-unit-is-crap" rubbish and every single weapon and upgrade is useful in it's own right and combined with others.

I think we can point at DE as a step in that direction but Space Marines could easily improve on it, along with eveyr other dex. And yes I point a very big finger at the space puppies for the constant ML Longfang spam and TWC I keep hearing about.

I think the notion of selling sprues of JUST weapon options is what people are getting at. You only need 5 devastators and 4 missile launchers, buy one box of devastators and a sprue of heavy weapons, not 2 boxes of devastators. Likewise with combi weapons. I don't need 7 space marine captains but I could sure use 7 combi weapons.

yeenoghu wrote:I think the notion of selling sprues of JUST weapon options is what people are getting at. You only need 5 devastators and 4 missile launchers, buy one box of devastators and a sprue of heavy weapons, not 2 boxes of devastators. Likewise with combi weapons. I don't need 7 space marine captains but I could sure use 7 combi weapons.

Yatzi!

Now, try building a Vulkan list with MMs without converting anything.
1 Dev box = 1 MM

Billinator wrote:

yeenoghu wrote:I think the notion of selling sprues of JUST weapon options is what people are getting at. You only need 5 devastators and 4 missile launchers, buy one box of devastators and a sprue of heavy weapons, not 2 boxes of devastators. Likewise with combi weapons. I don't need 7 space marine captains but I could sure use 7 combi weapons.

Yatzi!

Now, try building a Vulkan list with MMs without converting anything.
1 Dev box = 1 MM

MMs are at least available for individual sale thru games workshop, and are easier to aquire through 3rd party sources (ebay ect) due to the low demand of MMs.

Missiles on the other hand are just so damn hard to find.

Juvieus Kaine wrote:

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:People are complaining about the scarcity of missile launchers and saying GW should release more of them per pack. 2 reasons this does not compute:
first of all, this demand is a trend, the devestator box was released before it came along, and packaging is not really meant to be changed on short notice like this. They don't/can't change every model kit and the weapons it includes, every time the rules make one or another choice more fashionable.
Second, none of you guys are taking multi-melta+plasma cannon devestator squads due to this scandalous lack of missile launchers, are you now? No, you're seeking out other GW bits to build your armies. So why should GW do anything differently? It ain't hurting their sales one bit.

I highlight this bit as a bit of stupidity. Why would they give you weapons to use and yet make them so unappealing to the majority that noboy bothers with them? I mean if you wanted a balanced codex you make it so every unit is just as good as the next, there is no "must-have-uber-unit-of-death!!!!" or "this-unit-is-crap" rubbish and every single weapon and upgrade is useful in it's own right and combined with others.

I think we can point at DE as a step in that direction but Space Marines could easily improve on it, along with eveyr other dex. And yes I point a very big finger at the space puppies for the constant ML Longfang spam and TWC I keep hearing about.

I will assume you are calling GW stupid, not myself, and will therefore refrain from horsewhipping you through the street, you impudent knave!

I actually see the weapon costs as completely balance. The love for missile launchers is a trend stemming from the armies you see amongst competitively minded people - namely that so many armies can be most competitively played by fielding large numbers of AV10-12 vehicles. If you look at things as a (admittedly weirdly naive) GW rules designer, the weapons are fairly costed according to their strength/ap and range.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:

Juvieus Kaine wrote:

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:People are complaining about the scarcity of missile launchers and saying GW should release more of them per pack. 2 reasons this does not compute:
first of all, this demand is a trend, the devestator box was released before it came along, and packaging is not really meant to be changed on short notice like this. They don't/can't change every model kit and the weapons it includes, every time the rules make one or another choice more fashionable.
Second, none of you guys are taking multi-melta+plasma cannon devestator squads due to this scandalous lack of missile launchers, are you now? No, you're seeking out other GW bits to build your armies. So why should GW do anything differently? It ain't hurting their sales one bit.

I highlight this bit as a bit of stupidity. Why would they give you weapons to use and yet make them so unappealing to the majority that noboy bothers with them? I mean if you wanted a balanced codex you make it so every unit is just as good as the next, there is no "must-have-uber-unit-of-death!!!!" or "this-unit-is-crap" rubbish and every single weapon and upgrade is useful in it's own right and combined with others.

I think we can point at DE as a step in that direction but Space Marines could easily improve on it, along with eveyr other dex. And yes I point a very big finger at the space puppies for the constant ML Longfang spam and TWC I keep hearing about.

I will assume you are calling GW stupid, not myself, and will therefore refrain from horsewhipping you through the street, you impudent knave!

I actually see the weapon costs as completely balance. The love for missile launchers is a trend stemming from the armies you see amongst competitively minded people - namely that so many armies can be most competitively played by fielding large numbers of AV10-12 vehicles. If you look at things as a (admittedly weirdly naive) GW rules designer, the weapons are fairly costed according to their strength/ap and range.

I believe the love for Missile Launchers is due to it being the most versitile of the Heavy weapon choices. The missile has the widest range of potential targets from infantry hordes, MEQ, MCs, Light-Medium Vehicles, HQs. The only thing it suffers against is TEQ ad AV14 (although they still can hurt them to an extent). The only weapon I find more versitile is the Assault Cannon, which is unavailable for DEVs.

Heavy bolter suffers from decent armor saves and FnP, and anything higher than AV 10.

Plasma cannon destroys heavy infantry and FnP, but suffers against medium vehicles, cannot hurt heavy vehicles, and is expensive compared to the ML when shooting at light infantry.

Lascannon can tackle any vehicle, MC, or HQ, but suffers from volume of shots and cost, and is night useless against hordes.

MM suffers from range and volume of fire. Very good against Light-Medium Vehicles at 12"-24", Heavy vehicles inside 12", MCs and HQ inside 24", thats about it.

@I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly
Weapons may be. But certainly not the model-prices.

Also, considering good chunk competitive players are run SW with 15+ ML Long fangs, and the 40$ devastator kit comes with a SINGLE MISSILE LAUNCHER, and they cannot be obtained in singles from Games workshop (Most of SM players USE their Missiles when buying a tactical squad box), then logic dicates that there is indeed a shortage.

Given that most competitive players avoid tournaments where's there's comp/painting/fluff/soft scores eans that their ML squad probably consists of a marine with a piece of a smarties tube glued to his arm...

Now, try building a Vulkan list with MMs without converting anything.
1 Dev box = 1 MM

No no! you just buy the old metal on at £8 a pop (about 50% of hte dev squad cost!) so you trade 2 lascannons, 1 ml, 2 plasma cannons and 2 heavy bolters for that extra multi-melta!

Oh wait... can't do that anymore.... *sniff* I'm only 24 and I'm old ...

It's insane as I recall when for @£12 I could get the 'salamander tactical squad' wherein there was a metal MM and plasma gun as well as 10 tactical marines (no sgt sprue but it gave an assault plasma pistol sprue) ... so you swapped the flamer, sgt and missile launcher for a plasma pistol, MM and plasma gun. Not a bad deal if you wanted MMs!

Honestly, I think the dumbest thing that GW has done was making a Legion called the Word Bearers...seriously, they show up with dictionaries and maybe talk me to death?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Chaos/DREADNOUGHTS/WORD-BEARERS-DREADNOUGHT.html


So. Incredibly. Stupid.

I like the IG HW conversion idea. Granted you end up with extra weapons that MEQs can't use (autocannons, mortars) but a DEV squad, plus a 3 team IG HW box set might be doable.

I kind of like GW not making a model for EVERYTHING in a codex...makes you have to convert it if you want that unit/weapon combination. Have they ever put out an IG veteran squad model range? No, becuase it forces you to get creative, and be unique.

And about the ML debate: it seems that people are complaining about not being able to EASILY field a long fangs pack with 4 ML. Again, if its SO fething important, figure out a way to do it. (its a tube-based weapon; how hard could it be? I mean, really...) GW is a business, and they are running it like business men. If they ran it like a bunch of gamers, it wouldn't have lasted much past the release of 3rd ed WH40k.

(and becuase it can't be overstated, the storm raven looks SOOO frakking weak...should have just put the thunderhawk in there instead. Would have been so much cooler)

*Ahem* That is all. Thank you.

Giving the Lootas what the Flash Gitz should have had.

Giving the Flash Gitz such a terrible stat line.

Imagine if GW sold a single frame that had:

4 Missile Launchers
4 Lascannons
4 Heavy Bolters
4 Multi-Meltas
4 Plasma Cannons
4 Plasma Guns
4 Meltaguns
4 Flamers
4 Combi-Plasmas
4 Combi-Meltas
4 Combi-Flamers
2 pairs of Power Armour Lightning Claws.
2 Power Armour Thunder Hammers.
2 Power Armour Storm Shields
2 Power Fists
2 Power Weapons
2 Plasma Pistols
10 Beakie Heads

Do you think this sprue would sit in their warehouse gathering dust?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Imagine if GW sold a single frame that had:

4 Missile Launchers
4 Lascannons
4 Heavy Bolters
4 Multi-Meltas
4 Plasma Cannons
4 Plasma Guns
4 Meltaguns
4 Flamers
4 Combi-Plasmas
4 Combi-Meltas
4 Combi-Flamers
2 pairs of Power Armour Lightning Claws.
2 Power Armour Thunder Hammers.
2 Power Armour Storm Shields
2 Power Fists
2 Power Weapons
2 Plasma Pistols
10 Beakie Heads

Do you think this sprue would sit in their warehouse gathering dust?

I will dream of that sprue. They could charge me 50 bucks for it and id think it was a deal.

It would be actually, especially what the above items would cost separately from a 3rd party bitz site.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Imagine if GW sold a single frame that had:

4 Missile Launchers
4 Lascannons
4 Heavy Bolters
4 Multi-Meltas
4 Plasma Cannons
4 Plasma Guns
4 Meltaguns
4 Flamers
4 Combi-Plasmas
4 Combi-Meltas
4 Combi-Flamers
2 pairs of Power Armour Lightning Claws.
2 Power Armour Thunder Hammers.
2 Power Armour Storm Shields
2 Power Fists
2 Power Weapons
2 Plasma Pistols
10 Beakie Heads

Do you think this sprue would sit in their warehouse gathering dust?

It would be a MEQ army's dream. But GW won't do it since it makes too much sense to make something that players would actually use without splitting it apart.

Doctor Optimal wrote:Giving the Lootas what the Flash Gitz should have had.

Giving the Flash Gitz such a terrible stat line.

Yea Ive said that for a long time now. Ive always compared how Flashgits feel wrong as a HS choice, and lootas feel wrong as an elite. I swear FlashGits were just one of those "oh lets just toss em in there, we need another unit" thats the feeling anyways

H.B.M.C. wrote:Imagine if GW sold a single frame that had:

4 Missile Launchers
4 Lascannons
4 Heavy Bolters
4 Multi-Meltas
4 Plasma Cannons
4 Plasma Guns
4 Meltaguns
4 Flamers
4 Combi-Plasmas
4 Combi-Meltas
4 Combi-Flamers
2 pairs of Power Armour Lightning Claws.
2 Power Armour Thunder Hammers.
2 Power Armour Storm Shields
2 Power Fists
2 Power Weapons
2 Plasma Pistols
10 Beakie Heads

Do you think this sprue would sit in their warehouse gathering dust?

Seriously, if it were for $50 they wouldnt be able to keep them in stock. Id probably buy one and I dont even play a MEQ army

Brother Gyoken wrote:
Good point. Your being deliberately obtuse negates the fact that multiple missile launchers are seen in pretty much every competitive marine list.

You do realize that at the time that the Dev box was initially released Missile Launchers were not as popular as they are today.

My point is; somebody is always going to be dissatisfied because the exact combination THEY want isn't just thrown at them and will whine about it.
Today it is you. Tomorrow it might be somebody else.

Steelmage99 wrote:

Brother Gyoken wrote:
Good point. Your being deliberately obtuse negates the fact that multiple missile launchers are seen in pretty much every competitive marine list.

You do realize that at the time that the Dev box was initially released Missile Launchers were not as popular as they are today.

My point is; somebody is always going to be dissatisfied because the exact combination THEY want isn't just thrown at them and will whine about it.
Today it is you. Tomorrow it might be somebody else.

Yes GW should just provide one option in every box say plasma and everyone else can just deal with it AMIRITE? [/sarcasm]

The point is why isnt there heavy weapon blister packs when they have meltaguns and plasma guns with 5 in each blister?, i dont think many people would mind even if there were only 2 metal guns in a blister even though 4 would be better, and it would be a new pack GW can sell instead of people getting their bits from freinds or ebay.

I mean where would you be getting melta and plasma guns without those blisters? certainly not from GW directly

scubasteve04 wrote:There is a huge shortage of ML compared to the other heavy weapons circulated by the Dev box. For example, thewarstore.com has the ML listed for 14.99 USD while all the other heavy weapons are 4.99 (yes thats 75 dollars to kit one long fangs unit). There is not a single Devastator (or tactical) Missile Launcher for sale in all of canada on ebay, yet I can find the other heavy weapons in my own city.

GW could keep the current devastator box in circulation, and release a "Devastator Missile booster pack" with 4-5 Missile launchers and a few extra bits for space wolves ect.

With the massive amount of people running Missiles these days, you know they will sell.

There's something called "supply and demand" that I don't think you understand. More people want those rocket launchers, so they sell them for more money. More people want the Chaos Lord lightning claws, so they sell those for more money. Not as many people want those other heavy weapons and they are therefore cheaper. Plasma cannons are more rare than rocket launchers, yet Warstore doesn't sell them for $15 or whatever.

This has nothing to do with GW stupidity, this is just people whining that there aren't 4 rocket launchers in every box. Quit your bitching, buy some Imperial Guard rocket launchers for next to nothing, and never worry about this again.

Brother SRM wrote:

scubasteve04 wrote:There is a huge shortage of ML compared to the other heavy weapons circulated by the Dev box. For example, thewarstore.com has the ML listed for 14.99 USD while all the other heavy weapons are 4.99 (yes thats 75 dollars to kit one long fangs unit). There is not a single Devastator (or tactical) Missile Launcher for sale in all of canada on ebay, yet I can find the other heavy weapons in my own city.

GW could keep the current devastator box in circulation, and release a "Devastator Missile booster pack" with 4-5 Missile launchers and a few extra bits for space wolves ect.

With the massive amount of people running Missiles these days, you know they will sell.

There's something called "supply and demand" that I don't think you understand. More people want those rocket launchers, so they sell them for more money. More people want the Chaos Lord lightning claws, so they sell those for more money. Not as many people want those other heavy weapons and they are therefore cheaper. Plasma cannons are more rare than rocket launchers, yet Warstore doesn't sell them for $15 or whatever.

This has nothing to do with GW stupidity, this is just people whining that there aren't 4 rocket launchers in every box. Quit your bitching, buy some Imperial Guard rocket launchers for next to nothing, and never worry about this again.

You mean that part of supply and demand where either demand is high or supply is low or both so the price rises?...

"Quit your bitching" seems to be the only response that seems to be circulating, when in fact the thread is called "GW Stupidity"... I think this thread is meant for bitching

Also the Stupidity on GW's part is they could make more money selling a "Missile Booster Pack" same for any other weapon that people arnt buying from GW

Dont know if it's been mentioned, but Daemon Princes. They lack Daemon Armor (so a Terminator lord has better armor than the chosen of the gods?) and are one of the MCs with the lowest toughness. Even SM characters (who are still mortal) have higher toughness rating. How does that work? Sure Mephiston survived being buried under rubble for Sanguinus knows how long, but Daemon Princes have fought many wars and existed for milleniums, they could at least be on par with Mephiston and Cassius.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Dont know if it's been mentioned, but Daemon Princes. They lack Daemon Armor (so a Terminator lord has better armor than the chosen of the gods?) and are one of the MCs with the lowest toughness. Even SM characters (who are still mortal) have higher toughness rating. How does that work? Sure Mephiston survived being buried under rubble for Sanguinus knows how long, but Daemon Princes have fought many wars and existed for milleniums, they could at least be on par with Mephiston and Cassius.

I think the dumber thing is that Daemon Princes are so cheap compared to Chaos Lords for such a massive boost in stats.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Imagine if GW sold a single frame that had:

4 Missile Launchers
4 Lascannons
4 Heavy Bolters
4 Multi-Meltas
4 Plasma Cannons
4 Plasma Guns
4 Meltaguns
4 Flamers
4 Combi-Plasmas
4 Combi-Meltas
4 Combi-Flamers
2 pairs of Power Armour Lightning Claws.


2 Power Armour Thunder Hammers.
2 Power Armour Storm Shields
2 Power Fists
2 Power Weapons
2 Plasma Pistols
10 Beakie Heads

Do you think this sprue would sit in their warehouse gathering dust?

I hate to admit it, but yes, I think that a box set like this would sell really well. Every Imperial player would buy it. And since Imperial-based armies are the most popular (arguably)......yeah.

Do I think GW would? Naww, I doubt it. That would make too much sense for them.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Imagine if GW sold a single frame that had:

4 Missile Launchers
4 Lascannons
4 Heavy Bolters
4 Multi-Meltas
4 Plasma Cannons
4 Plasma Guns
4 Meltaguns
4 Flamers
4 Combi-Plasmas
4 Combi-Meltas
4 Combi-Flamers
2 pairs of Power Armour Lightning Claws.
2 Power Armour Thunder Hammers.
2 Power Armour Storm Shields
2 Power Fists
2 Power Weapons
2 Plasma Pistols
10 Beakie Heads

Do you think this sprue would sit in their warehouse gathering dust?

If they made that sprue we would have a thread on here where guys are complaining because there are only 2 pairs of Power Armor Lightning Claws and 2 pairs of Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. Why was GW so stupid!?!?!?!?!

That means that to be able to field either a squad of Tactical Terminators or Assault Terminators I either have to buy both boxes, or buy the tactical Terminator box and two of those stupid sprues to have enough arms to magnetize.

I hate it when a company forces me to buy their products.....

I think you're missing the point completely.

Brother SRM wrote:
This has nothing to do with GW stupidity, this is just people whining that there aren't 4 rocket launchers in every box. Quit your bitching, buy some Imperial Guard rocket launchers for next to nothing, and never worry about this again.

I haven't heard a single person advocate this position except people making your side of the argument.

As I said above, the demand for rocket launchers is partly based on the rules and partly a trend in what opponents and units are the most common. (which is also based on the rules, but does sort of change year by year as things go in and out of fashion)

So if GW released a sprue as suggested above, which would of course be very expensive (it wouldn't profit them otherwise) people would be moaning about having to buy a really expensive bunch of upgrades when they only wanted 12 missile launchers. I guarantee you, whatever weapons are included with whatever box, there will eventually be people online complaining, either that x parts are not included, or that the total cost is too high because y parts are included.

It's a complex game in that sense, all models have lots of options. The solution is to swap bits, convert etc, as has been done since time immemorial. I admit, if you're a very competitive marine player surrounded by others of a like ilk, you may be experiencing a burning, unsolveable drought of missile launchers. That sort of thing could alleviated by better rules writing. But if you are a competitive 40k player, you're spending a fair amount already to build a stripped-down list. You can't buy a couple missile launchers from somewhere?

The point is tho that GW could make alot of money just selling extra weapon sprues, GW is a company they dont want you to buy GW parts that are unused from a freind they want you to buy new parts so they earn more money

Gibbsey wrote:The point is tho that GW could make alot of money just selling extra weapon sprues, GW is a company they dont want you to buy GW parts that are unused from a freind they want you to buy new parts so they earn more money

Yes, and my point is that if they did such a large weapon sprue, people still wouldn't buy the whole expensive thing to get a couple parts they want. They would trade, or go shares with one or more friends. Despite some weird holes in their thinking (eg playtesting) GW have a pretty good eye for the main chance. I doubt they could make much more money than they do now by changing up the way weapons are apportioned.

Cortez667 wrote:
I hate to admit it, but yes, I think that a box set like this would sell really well. Every Imperial player would buy it. And since Imperial-based armies are the most popular (arguably)......yeah.

Do I think GW would? Naww, I doubt it. That would make too much sense for them.

It would likely sell well for a few months, until everyone had bought all they'd likely need for years to come.

So yeah. It makes sense for GW's customers, not GW itself.

Regarding missile launchers...

old Bic pens + modelling putty + cardboard/plasticard = problem solved

Gibbsey wrote:The point is tho that GW could make alot of money just selling extra weapon sprues, GW is a company they dont want you to buy GW parts that are unused from a freind they want you to buy new parts so they earn more money

GW could make $5 on a weapon sprue, or they could make $20 by making you buy a 2nd box of Dev's (profit margins purely hypothetical and for illustration purposes only).

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:The point is tho that GW could make alot of money just selling extra weapon sprues, GW is a company they dont want you to buy GW parts that are unused from a freind they want you to buy new parts so they earn more money

Yes, and my point is that if they did such a large weapon sprue, people still wouldn't buy the whole expensive thing to get a couple parts they want. They would trade, or go shares with one or more friends. Despite some weird holes in their thinking (eg playtesting) GW have a pretty good eye for the main chance. I doubt they could make much more money than they do now by changing up the way weapons are apportioned.

I dont think that GW would release a sprue as above, but it could be profitable for them to sell say 4 heavy weapons or even jsut 2 in a blister. It doesent even matter if they are metal models people will buy them

d-usa wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:The point is tho that GW could make alot of money just selling extra weapon sprues, GW is a company they dont want you to buy GW parts that are unused from a freind they want you to buy new parts so they earn more money

GW could make $5 on a weapon sprue, or they could make $20 by making you buy a 2nd box of Dev's (profit margins purely hypothetical and for illustration purposes only).

But say for missile launchers people arnt buying 4 boxes of devestators to equip one unit and even if they did they would sell off the other bits (or make multi-melta squad, plasma squad, etc).

Most people are converting Missile launchers or buying from freinds, where as if GW made a blister pack for each heavy weapon then they could charge more. (and id expect something like $8 for 2 metal or 4 plastic)

The missile launcher issue is kinda stupid. GW really should produce something to easily make a Dev squad with all missile launchers.

They sell individual SM models with just about every heavy weapon except a ML, and they sell packs of Melta Guns and Plasma Guns.

But, that being said, at least the model is available, even if you have to buy multiples of packs to get them all.

Gibbsey wrote:

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:The point is tho that GW could make alot of money just selling extra weapon sprues, GW is a company they dont want you to buy GW parts that are unused from a freind they want you to buy new parts so they earn more money

Yes, and my point is that if they did such a large weapon sprue, people still wouldn't buy the whole expensive thing to get a couple parts they want. They would trade, or go shares with one or more friends. Despite some weird holes in their thinking (eg playtesting) GW have a pretty good eye for the main chance. I doubt they could make much more money than they do now by changing up the way weapons are apportioned.

I dont think that GW would release a sprue as above, but it could be profitable for them to sell say 4 heavy weapons or even jsut 2 in a blister. It doesn't even matter if they are metal models people will buy them

I highly doubt that. There's a reason the metal/plastic Devastator hybrid kits are still able to be sold.
And I'll give you a hint:
It's not because they were flying off the shelves to begin with.

d-usa wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:The point is tho that GW could make alot of money just selling extra weapon sprues, GW is a company they dont want you to buy GW parts that are unused from a freind they want you to buy new parts so they earn more money

GW could make $5 on a weapon sprue, or they could make $20 by making you buy a 2nd box of Dev's (profit margins purely hypothetical and for illustration purposes only).

But say for missile launchers people aren't buying 4 boxes of devestators to equip one unit and even if they did they would sell off the other bits (or make multi-melta squad, plasma squad, etc).

Which is still profit for GW. You bought the Devastator box or Tactical box from them enough times just to get those 4 MLs. There's no real feasible way that you're going to break even.

Most people are converting Missile launchers or buying from friends, where as if GW made a blister pack for each heavy weapon then they could charge more. (and id expect something like $8 for 2 metal or 4 plastic)

See above. There's a reason they put in crummy weapon options with good ones. People who don't like waiting on bits services to stock the bits they have(or who don't like having to pay through the nose for one particular weapon) will buy those boxes just to get the good option.

Think of it like the ever-popular "Why do hot dogs come in packs of 10 and hot dog buns in packs of 8?" quandry.

Saying if you want a 4ML dev team you need to buy 4 Devastator boxes is slowed. Thats like 120 dollars for a single squad.

The most feasable way to make a 4 ML Dev team is to buy one Dev box, use like 25% of the kit, then go on a hunt for second hand missiles from friends or Ebay or convert them. This is a hassle to make such a small unit.

Missile Launchers are the most versitile and sought after weapon of 5th edition. All they need to do is at the very least release a metal missile launcher blister pack, and they will do two things:

-Make Money

-Make GW customers happy

Saying "theres only 1 ML in the dev box, deal with it" doesn't work. GW needs to make their customers happy if they want to continue making money.

Hint: GW doesn't care if you're happy. You're an addict, you'll be back.

Kanluwen wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:The point is tho that GW could make alot of money just selling extra weapon sprues, GW is a company they dont want you to buy GW parts that are unused from a freind they want you to buy new parts so they earn more money

Yes, and my point is that if they did such a large weapon sprue, people still wouldn't buy the whole expensive thing to get a couple parts they want. They would trade, or go shares with one or more friends. Despite some weird holes in their thinking (eg playtesting) GW have a pretty good eye for the main chance. I doubt they could make much more money than they do now by changing up the way weapons are apportioned.

I dont think that GW would release a sprue as above, but it could be profitable for them to sell say 4 heavy weapons or even jsut 2 in a blister. It doesn't even matter if they are metal models people will buy them

I highly doubt that. There's a reason the metal/plastic Devastator hybrid kits are still able to be sold.
And I'll give you a hint:
It's not because they were flying off the shelves to begin with.

Yes but im not saying to include it in the devestator box, im saying to have a blister pack like meltaguns and plasmaguns.

Kanluwen wrote:

d-usa wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:The point is tho that GW could make alot of money just selling extra weapon sprues, GW is a company they dont want you to buy GW parts that are unused from a freind they want you to buy new parts so they earn more money

GW could make $5 on a weapon sprue, or they could make $20 by making you buy a 2nd box of Dev's (profit margins purely hypothetical and for illustration purposes only).

But say for missile launchers people aren't buying 4 boxes of devestators to equip one unit and even if they did they would sell off the other bits (or make multi-melta squad, plasma squad, etc).

Which is still profit for GW. You bought the Devastator box or Tactical box from them enough times just to get those 4 MLs. There's no real feasible way that you're going to break even.

Im very interested how not buying new boxes from GW is somehow profit for them, people arnt going to buy a tactical squad or devestator squad just for a missile launcher, sure if they have on lying around they will use it. But if not they will just buy off of ebay or a freind who doesent use them. Now people buying blister packs instead of getting the stuff fro mfreinds or ebay will make them profit

Kanluwen wrote:

Most people are converting Missile launchers or buying from friends, where as if GW made a blister pack for each heavy weapon then they could charge more. (and id expect something like $8 for 2 metal or 4 plastic)

See above. There's a reason they put in crummy weapon options with good ones. People who don't like waiting on bits services to stock the bits they have(or who don't like having to pay through the nose for one particular weapon) will buy those boxes just to get the good option.

Think of it like the ever-popular "Why do hot dogs come in packs of 10 and hot dog buns in packs of 8?" quandry.

Except that it would be you get 5 buns and 1 hot dog in a package... so you go and buy the remaining hotdogs from your freinds...

Where as say if they made heavy weapon blister packs it would by why do they sell a pack of 5 hot dog buns and a hot dot and a pack of 2/4 hot dogs...

yeah the hot dog analogy doesent reallly make sense in this instance...

streamdragon wrote:Hint: GW doesn't care if you're happy. You're an addict, you'll be back.

By that logic GW should just start releasing cardboard cutout minis, and make the codexes into coloring books, because hey, they have our business already they can't leave!

Have you seen some of the older boxes? Be glad AoBR game with a dread and real deff koptas. We used to get cardboard tokens on a plastic stand.

streamdragon wrote:Have you seen some of the older boxes? Be glad AoBR game with a dread and real deff koptas. We used to get cardboard tokens on a plastic stand.

You act like its some god given right that we have Games Workshops services, and its not. They are a business and we are the consumer, and it is their job to serve the customer and make us happy, so they can continue to make money.

There are hundreds of other tabletop games out there, and if Games Workshop had the mentality "The products we make are fine as-is, be happy you have them" then slowly they are going to lose 1 customer, then 10, then pretty soon they are losing everyone to another company who went that extra mile to make a quality and affordable product. In a competitive market, they are doing, and will continue to do everything to make you the consumer happy to stay on top.

I am sure it did not cost 500 dollars to make a full army of cardboard tokens either.

Gibbsey wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:The point is tho that GW could make alot of money just selling extra weapon sprues, GW is a company they dont want you to buy GW parts that are unused from a freind they want you to buy new parts so they earn more money

Yes, and my point is that if they did such a large weapon sprue, people still wouldn't buy the whole expensive thing to get a couple parts they want. They would trade, or go shares with one or more friends. Despite some weird holes in their thinking (eg playtesting) GW have a pretty good eye for the main chance. I doubt they could make much more money than they do now by changing up the way weapons are apportioned.

I dont think that GW would release a sprue as above, but it could be profitable for them to sell say 4 heavy weapons or even jsut 2 in a blister. It doesn't even matter if they are metal models people will buy them

I highly doubt that. There's a reason the metal/plastic Devastator hybrid kits are still able to be sold.
And I'll give you a hint:
It's not because they were flying off the shelves to begin with.

Yes but I'm not saying to include it in the devastator box, I'm saying to have a blister pack like meltaguns and plasmaguns.

Which isn't really feasible with the heavy weapons. The whole reason they moved away from the hybrid metal/plastic kits was an issue of bits and blister packs.

Kanluwen wrote:

d-usa wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:The point is tho that GW could make alot of money just selling extra weapon sprues, GW is a company they dont want you to buy GW parts that are unused from a freind they want you to buy new parts so they earn more money

GW could make $5 on a weapon sprue, or they could make $20 by making you buy a 2nd box of Dev's (profit margins purely hypothetical and for illustration purposes only).

But say for missile launchers people aren't buying 4 boxes of devestators to equip one unit and even if they did they would sell off the other bits (or make multi-melta squad, plasma squad, etc).

Which is still profit for GW. You bought the Devastator box or Tactical box from them enough times just to get those 4 MLs. There's no real feasible way that you're going to break even.

I'm very interested how not buying new boxes from GW is somehow profit for them, people aren't going to buy a tactical squad or devastator squad just for a missile launcher, sure if they have on lying around they will use it. But if not they will just buy off of ebay or a friend who doesn't use them. Now people buying blister packs instead of getting the stuff from friends or ebay will make them profit

Where do you think those MLs are coming from that you're trading for/buying second hand? Unless you're buying from recasters...

They've already made that profit. They sold the box that was broken up to be sold as bits at a greatly inflated cost to begin with, and you had to still buy a Tactical/Devastator/Combat/whatever Squad that you're using for the bodies to make those 4 ML Devastators.

Kanluwen wrote:

Most people are converting Missile launchers or buying from friends, where as if GW made a blister pack for each heavy weapon then they could charge more. (and id expect something like $8 for 2 metal or 4 plastic)

See above. There's a reason they put in crummy weapon options with good ones. People who don't like waiting on bits services to stock the bits they have(or who don't like having to pay through the nose for one particular weapon) will buy those boxes just to get the good option.

Think of it like the ever-popular "Why do hot dogs come in packs of 10 and hot dog buns in packs of 8?" quandry.

Except that it would be you get 5 buns and 1 hot dog in a package... so you go and buy the remaining hot dogs from your friends...

Where as say if they made heavy weapon blister packs it would by why do they sell a pack of 5 hot dog buns and a hot dot and a pack of 2/4 hot dogs...

yeah the hot dog analogy doesn't really make sense in this instance...

streamdragon wrote:Have you seen some of the older boxes? Be glad AoBR game with a dread and real deff koptas. We used to get cardboard tokens on a plastic stand.

1 edition of the game came with a cardboard cutout (the Ork Dreadnought in 2nd edition). And that was along with 20 Space Marines, 20 Ork Boyz, and 40 Gretchin... so wasn't really that bad a deal.


Meanwhile, how about we all dial down the hostility a tad? We're talking about toy soldiers here.

Kanluwen wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:
Yes but I'm not saying to include it in the devastator box, I'm saying to have a blister pack like meltaguns and plasmaguns.

Which isn't really feasible with the heavy weapons. The whole reason they moved away from the hybrid metal/plastic kits was an issue of bits and blister packs.

So why then do they still sell Meltagun and plasmagun blisters? oh right Because people buy them

Kanluwen wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:
I'm very interested how not buying new boxes from GW is somehow profit for them, people aren't going to buy a tactical squad or devastator squad just for a missile launcher, sure if they have on lying around they will use it. But if not they will just buy off of ebay or a friend who doesn't use them. Now people buying blister packs instead of getting the stuff from friends or ebay will make them profit

Where do you think those MLs are coming from that you're trading for/buying second hand? Unless you're buying from recasters...

They've already made that profit. They sold the box that was broken up to be sold as bits at a greatly inflated cost to begin with, and you had to still buy a Tactical/Devastator/Combat/whatever Squad that you're using for the bodies to make those 4 ML Devastators.

Where are they coming from? people's spare bits. I think this is you missing the point that that GW does not profit from you buying spare unused parts from a freind or ebay. Do you really think that bitz stores make more profit for GW? Gw does not care how efficient bitz use is they care about boxes sold and the profit those boxes bring in now If GW made a missile launcher blister pack that would be less people buying spare bitz from freinds and websites and more profit for GW nevermind the fact that this would also be more convenient for customers.

Kanluwen wrote:You really fail at understanding the logic behind that analogy.

It's a question of a break-even point. At what point is the consumer base not going to need to buy your product anymore, as they already have sufficient quantities of your supply to meet their demand.

No im just pointing out how rediculous your analogy was

Kanluwen wrote:
It's a question of a break-even point. At what point is the consumer base not going to need to buy your product anymore, as they already have sufficient quantities of your supply to meet their demand.

Plus, you failed to realize that it was more "if they sold just the individual weapons that are the most sought after, they can't move the others".
Do you really think that if they sold a Missile Launcher Devastator Box that any Plasma Cannon/Multi-Melta/Lascannon Devastator individual boxes that they also made would sell?

No, when have i ever recommended a "missile devestator box" i've recommended a suppliment to the current devestator box that is a blister pack of missile launchers, which is not necissarily for just devestators

Gibbsey wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:
Yes but I'm not saying to include it in the devastator box, I'm saying to have a blister pack like meltaguns and plasmaguns.

Which isn't really feasible with the heavy weapons. The whole reason they moved away from the hybrid metal/plastic kits was an issue of bits and blister packs.

So why then do they still sell Meltagun and plasmagun blisters? oh right Because people buy them

They sell the blisters of meltaguns/plasma guns because it's an easy sale(across 5-6 different armies) and it just consists of a single piece to be cast.
The Missile Launcher isn't considered such, at least not for the Devastator kit. It comes with the missile backpack+loading arm in addition to the two piece ML(cover and then ML/arm) and the opposite arm that is used to 'brace' the ML.

Kanluwen wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:
I'm very interested how not buying new boxes from GW is somehow profit for them, people aren't going to buy a tactical squad or devastator squad just for a missile launcher, sure if they have on lying around they will use it. But if not they will just buy off of ebay or a friend who doesn't use them. Now people buying blister packs instead of getting the stuff from friends or ebay will make them profit

Where do you think those MLs are coming from that you're trading for/buying second hand? Unless you're buying from recasters...

They've already made that profit. They sold the box that was broken up to be sold as bits at a greatly inflated cost to begin with, and you had to still buy a Tactical/Devastator/Combat/whatever Squad that you're using for the bodies to make those 4 ML Devastators.

Where are they coming from? people's spare bits. I think this is you missing the point that that GW does not profit from you buying spare unused parts from a freind or ebay. Do you really think that bitz stores make more profit for GW? Gw does not care how efficient bitz use is they care about boxes sold and the profit those boxes bring in now If GW made a missile launcher blister pack that would be less people buying spare bitz from friends and websites and more profit for GW never mind the fact that this would also be more convenient for customers.

You really don't seem to understand how this works.

Bitz stores actually have to buy those boxes at some point. Your friends who have those "spare bitz" that you're buying from?
They had to have bought those boxes at some point in order for your friend to have those bits to sell.

GW has made their money from that particular box set.

Kanluwen wrote:You really fail at understanding the logic behind that analogy.

It's a question of a break-even point. At what point is the consumer base not going to need to buy your product anymore, as they already have sufficient quantities of your supply to meet their demand.

No I'm just pointing out how ridiculous your analogy was

Not my fault you didn't understand it. It's a pretty commonly used economic analogy/mathematic equation. I.E.: If X is the number of hot dogs you have at a party(say, 64) and Y is the number of hot dog buns you have at a party(40) then how many more packages of buns/hot dogs do you need to avoid having bunless hot dogs or hot dogless buns.

Kanluwen wrote:
It's a question of a break-even point. At what point is the consumer base not going to need to buy your product anymore, as they already have sufficient quantities of your supply to meet their demand.

Plus, you failed to realize that it was more "if they sold just the individual weapons that are the most sought after, they can't move the others".
Do you really think that if they sold a Missile Launcher Devastator Box that any Plasma Cannon/Multi-Melta/Lascannon Devastator individual boxes that they also made would sell?

No, when have i ever recommended a "missile devastator box" I've recommended a supplement to the current devastator box that is a blister pack of missile launchers, which is not necessarily for just devastators

I didn't say you did. I used it as an example. Once the market for Missile Launchers is filled, then everything associated with the Missile Launchers stagnates until a new edition and when they push another weapon as the best.

It's why the IG command squad meltagun bit is absurdly expensive compared to the command squad heavy flamer bit.

Don't believe me? Look here: http://www.thewarstore.com/cadiancmd.html
Oh, and just remember: that doesn't include the opposite 'bracing' arm or even a body. That's $8.99 for just the meltagun.

Just to chime in on the bitz stores front: they are just facilitating the practice (which was already universal) of sharing/selling unused odds and ends between players. I'm sure it would be better for GW overall if none existed, but people would still find some way of sharing parts about.

And as far as GW making profit for them goes: If you and a mate buy 2 devestator boxes, and you make a plasmacannon squad and he makes a lascannon squad (or whatever), then that is cutting into GW's profits. But what everyone is complaining about is that "everyone wants missile launchers". And if everyone wants the same piece, to get that weapon, you must buy the box. So this kind of demand for one particular weapon, combined with the way GW is selling, is terrific for them! They've sold a load of missile launchers, while at the same time selling a proportionate amount of other weapons which (apparently) no-one wants in the same amount.

Kanluwen wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:
Yes but I'm not saying to include it in the devastator box, I'm saying to have a blister pack like meltaguns and plasmaguns.

Which isn't really feasible with the heavy weapons. The whole reason they moved away from the hybrid metal/plastic kits was an issue of bits and blister packs.

So why then do they still sell Meltagun and plasmagun blisters? oh right Because people buy them

They sell the blisters of meltaguns/plasma guns because it's an easy sale(across 5-6 different armies) and it just consists of a single piece to be cast.
The Missile Launcher isn't considered such, at least not for the Devastator kit. It comes with the missile backpack+loading arm in addition to the two piece ML(cover and then ML/arm) and the opposite arm that is used to 'brace' the ML.

Kanluwen wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:
I'm very interested how not buying new boxes from GW is somehow profit for them, people aren't going to buy a tactical squad or devastator squad just for a missile launcher, sure if they have on lying around they will use it. But if not they will just buy off of ebay or a friend who doesn't use them. Now people buying blister packs instead of getting the stuff from friends or ebay will make them profit

Where do you think those MLs are coming from that you're trading for/buying second hand? Unless you're buying from recasters...

They've already made that profit. They sold the box that was broken up to be sold as bits at a greatly inflated cost to begin with, and you had to still buy a Tactical/Devastator/Combat/whatever Squad that you're using for the bodies to make those 4 ML Devastators.

Where are they coming from? people's spare bits. I think this is you missing the point that that GW does not profit from you buying spare unused parts from a freind or ebay. Do you really think that bitz stores make more profit for GW? Gw does not care how efficient bitz use is they care about boxes sold and the profit those boxes bring in now If GW made a missile launcher blister pack that would be less people buying spare bitz from friends and websites and more profit for GW never mind the fact that this would also be more convenient for customers.

You really don't seem to understand how this works.

Bitz stores actually have to buy those boxes at some point. Your friends who have those "spare bitz" that you're buying from?
They had to have bought those boxes at some point in order for your friend to have those bits to sell.

GW has made their money from that particular box set.

Kanluwen wrote:You really fail at understanding the logic behind that analogy.

It's a question of a break-even point. At what point is the consumer base not going to need to buy your product anymore, as they already have sufficient quantities of your supply to meet their demand.

No I'm just pointing out how ridiculous your analogy was

Not my fault you didn't understand it. It's a pretty commonly used economic analogy/mathematic equation. I.E.: If X is the number of hot dogs you have at a party(say, 64) and Y is the number of hot dog buns you have at a party(40) then how many more packages of buns/hot dogs do you need to avoid having bunless hot dogs or hot dogless buns.

Kanluwen wrote:
It's a question of a break-even point. At what point is the consumer base not going to need to buy your product anymore, as they already have sufficient quantities of your supply to meet their demand.

Plus, you failed to realize that it was more "if they sold just the individual weapons that are the most sought after, they can't move the others".
Do you really think that if they sold a Missile Launcher Devastator Box that any Plasma Cannon/Multi-Melta/Lascannon Devastator individual boxes that they also made would sell?

No, when have i ever recommended a "missile devastator box" I've recommended a supplement to the current devastator box that is a blister pack of missile launchers, which is not necessarily for just devastators

I didn't say you did. I used it as an example. Once the market for Missile Launchers is filled, then everything associated with the Missile Launchers stagnates until a new edition and when they push another weapon as the best.

It's why the IG command squad meltagun bit is absurdly expensive compared to the command squad heavy flamer bit.

Don't believe me? Look here: http://www.thewarstore.com/cadiancmd.html
Oh, and just remember: that doesn't include the opposite 'bracing' arm or even a body. That's $8.99 for just the meltagun.

*sigh*

1. Yes meltaguns and plasmaguns are an easy sale across multiple armies, why not ML? (as far as im concerned it could just be launcher+ arm and other arm)

2. How is a store selling all of the bits from a box more profit for GW than someone buying a box and a blister pack? or more profit than buying an unused part from a freind? Yes they have sold boxes to the bits company but the bits company is selling less boxes than would of been bought otherwise.

3. Hot dog analogy is based on company selling A: hotdogs B buns Gw is selling 5A + 1B + C, people arnt going to buy 4x that they are going to by "B" from people who are not using it and only using "C" understand? Hot dog analogy would actually better fit if GW sold a ML Blister pack for example Devestatorbox + 2 missile launcher blister, you would have to buy a dev box and 2 missile launcher blisters to make a ml squad

4. "Do you really think that if they sold a Missile Launcher Devastator Box that any Plasma Cannon/Multi-Melta/Lascannon Devastator individual boxes that they also made would sell?" Nope no misrepresentation of what i said there...

5. If the market is filled GW is still being "stupid" for missing out on that much easy profit, which i think is the entire point of the whole ML issue

Kanluwen wrote:You really don't seem to understand how this works.

Bitz stores actually have to buy those boxes at some point. Your friends who have those "spare bitz" that you're buying from?
They had to have bought those boxes at some point in order for your friend to have those bits to sell.

GW has made their money from that particular box set.

Here is an example. A guy wants to make a Salamanders army. He buys 3 Tactical squad boxes, along with 3 multi-melta bits off the GW website. He now has 3 Tactical squads with MMs and flamers.

Another player wants to make a 4x ML Dev squad, so he buys a Devastator box, upset that there is only ONE missile. He posts an ad on kijiji looking for 3 more missile launchers. The Salamander player sees this ad, and sells him his 3 spare Missile launchers for 15 dollars.

No extra profit gained on GWs part on this exchange of goods. GW needs to start selling missile blisters to make a profit on it.

MLs be damned...this thread is about GWs stupidity not GW being stupid because you have to buy extra box sets to make the squads the way YOU want...

GW as a corporate entity WANTS you to buy the extra boxes...

The stupidity of the business plan they follow is what is the real issue...

They have gak for brains when it comes to actually listening to their customer base who supports their money making scheme as opposed to their investors who are screaming "Make me money"...

Their business plan is, for all intents and purposes, very short sighted IMO and until they realize that we are the ones supporting them and not the investors, then they will lose profits, as they have been doing and ultimately kill that which we have come to love over the past 25 years

Yeah, fine, we get that you guys disagree as to how much profit GW makes from the Bitz trade.

I was going to say that with that understanding reached we can all get back to the actual topic... but on review, the actual topic seems to just be people listing things that they don't fully understand the reasoning behind as examples of GW being stupid, which seems somewhat pointless.

So how about we all just accept that some of the things GW does don't make a lot of sense without having the whole picture, and try to get on with our lives regardless as best we can?