So who do you guys think the Primarch is of the blood Ravens, personally I am inclined to think either one of the unknown primarchs(2nd and 11th)or from Thousand Son Geneseed due to the high number of Psykers in their ranks.


EDIT:Im a moron

It's heavily implied that their geneseed is, in fact, from the Thousand Sons, so their Primarch would be Magnus the Red.

So who do you guys think the Primarch is of the blood angels

Don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure its Sanguinius


Dawn of war II: its revealed that they somehow have connections with the Black Legion, which means they were possibly formed from a loyalist splinter of the Luna wolves

who knows? that's just speculation but if so it means that they're descended from Horus.

0_o

It's also hinted at in DoW: Dark Crusade. Eliphas was able to gain Abaddon's favour by annhilating the Blood Ravens.

Problem is,abaddon is tyrant, so they couldve been any faction of chaos(or hell just thwarted some plan of abaddons...)



Automatically Appended Next Post:
another possibility is they somehow have some good stock of Blood Angels geneseed(saying this due to symbology of the blood ravens)

From Graham McNeill's A Thousand Sons

Well you cant get much more clear cut than that....

of course knowing GW they'll probably change the story a dozen more times

just starting the HH series, havent gotten their quite yet lol

Heavily implied to be Magnus, or at the very least, a traitor primarch.

They'll probably get retconned and end up being descended from ultramarines LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

This would help explain why Abbadon is keen to turn the Blood Ravens. Over and above fodder for the Black Crusades, the opportunity to possibly truly rebuild the Thousand Sons would give him leverage to bring Magnus to his side.

Wardragoon wrote:Problem is,abaddon is tyrant, so they couldve been any faction of chaos(or hell just thwarted some plan of abaddons...)

DoW's hint is that the annhilation of the Blood Ravens was especially pleasing to Abaddon, despite there being no reason why he should favour their destruction over that of any other loyalist chapter.

There's more hint towards Thousand Sons, mainly in the BR's organization. Ordo Psykana and their hoarding of knowledge are hallmarks of Pre-heresy Thousand Sons.

It is strongly hinted that Sanguinius and Corax had an illecit affair for several years resulting in Corax's pregnancy. When they could no longer conceal the truth from the Emperor he forced Corax to give up the child for adoption.

That child became the first Blood Raven but never knew who his parents were.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:It is strongly hinted that Sanguinius and Corax had an illecit affair for several years resulting in Corax's pregnancy. When they could no longer conceal the truth from the Emperor he forced Corax to give up the child for adoption.

That child became the first Blood Raven but never knew who his parents were.

This sir, is genious!

They aren't a legion & never were so it wouldn't be one of the unknowns. The unknowns & the data on their geneseed has been expunged so how would you go about making more?

Also I believe it was stated some time ago the unknowns were left unknown & always will be left unknown to provide a plot hook for DIY chapters / traitor legions.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:They aren't a legion & never were so it wouldn't be one of the unknowns. The unknowns & the data on their geneseed has been expunged so how would you go about making more?

Also I believe it was stated some time ago the unknowns were left unknown & always will be left unknown to provide a plot hook for DIY chapters / traitor legions.

I agree with what you said about the 2 lost legions. It's difficult to use their geneseed when they've been expunged. But GW attempt at making the 2 lost chapters a DIY thing doesn't really pan out perfectly. I mean how many times have people posted up their own chapters claiming them to be one of the lost legions? And how many of those times have people methodically shut them down? It's a fancifully (naive) idea, but it doesn't work well.

Now back on topic, I do believe this question has been asked before, although I can't really find it. And I do recall that in that said thread, someone also stated that this question had been asked. So you're repeating a repeated repeater.

What i can recall to the best of my ability was that most had agreed that the Blood Ravens were descendants of the Thousand sons, psker tendencies, and the whole "A Thousand Sons" novel prophecy. There was a hint in DoW2 with one of the random items "Hand of Rage", apparantly a nod to the Blood Angels and their defect.

Personally I think they're tson's descendents under the cover of being Blood Angels successors. Although they do not exhibit the rage, the fact that "Blood" is in their name and above item is in their armoury, I think it would be enough for an inquisitor to overlook. Until all that corruption news gets out. Then they're screwed

Kid_Kyoto wrote:It is strongly hinted that Sanguinius and Corax had an illecit affair for several years resulting in Corax's pregnancy. When they could no longer conceal the truth from the Emperor he forced Corax to give up the child for adoption.

That child became the first Blood Raven but never knew who his parents were.

WAIT.....
Corax is a man, Sanguinius is his BROTHER?
How the hell do they have kid?
IT'S NOT POSSIBLE!!!!

Brother Coa wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:It is strongly hinted that Sanguinius and Corax had an illecit affair for several years resulting in Corax's pregnancy. When they could no longer conceal the truth from the Emperor he forced Corax to give up the child for adoption.

That child became the first Blood Raven but never knew who his parents were.

WAIT.....
Corax is a man, Sanguinius is his BROTHER?
How the hell do they have kid?
IT'S NOT POSSIBLE!!!!

See this bothers me when people post in this forum but don't really know the fluff.

Corax and Sanguinius were not 'men' they were genetically engineered primarchs with additional hearts and lungs, wings and psychic powers. Now surely the Emperor as he was genetically engineering them would also include the ability to reproduce? After all he planned for an Empire to last millennia and in the long run I'd rather have genetic superman who can reporduce than genectic superman who can spit poison (though, all things being equal, I'd like to have both).

The only reason Corax's pregnancy was problematic is he was promised to Fulgrim and the Emperor's strict pro-life policy did not allow him to terminate the child.

I never wondered about this before I just assumed they were a new chapter made from blood angels.

If they really are decended from magnus wouldn't they suffer from the flesh change?

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

See this bothers me when people post in this forum but don't really know the fluff.

Corax and Sanguinius were not 'men' they were genetically engineered primarchs with additional hearts and lungs, wings and psychic powers. Now surely the Emperor as he was genetically engineering them would also include the ability to reproduce? After all he planned for an Empire to last millennia and in the long run I'd rather have genetic superman who can reporduce than genectic superman who can spit poison (though, all things being equal, I'd like to have both).

The only reason Corax's pregnancy was problematic is he was promised to Fulgrim and the Emperor's strict pro-life policy did not allow him to terminate the child.

So Corax and Sanguinius are bisexuals? And The Emperor has given approval for incest? And they have a child, but they have to give him away?
I do not know, this story is a little to strange to be true...
Where did you read it?

Brother Coa, he is joking/being sarcastic, please do not take him seriously...

Yeah everyone knows that he was promised to Dorn not Fulgrim.

obsidianaura wrote:I never wondered about this before I just assumed they were a new chapter made from blood angels.

If they really are decended from magnus wouldn't they suffer from the flesh change?

He has a point. How exactly did the flesh change work? At the risk of sounding stupid, why exactly would it have not affected the marines who would go on to become the Blood Ravens?

Guildsman wrote:

obsidianaura wrote:I never wondered about this before I just assumed they were a new chapter made from blood angels.

If they really are decended from magnus wouldn't they suffer from the flesh change?

He has a point. How exactly did the flesh change work? At the risk of sounding stupid, why exactly would it have not affected the marines who would go on to become the Blood Ravens?

In all honesty I did not know that there was a flesh change :S

Wardragoon wrote:

Guildsman wrote:

obsidianaura wrote:I never wondered about this before I just assumed they were a new chapter made from blood angels.

If they really are decended from magnus wouldn't they suffer from the flesh change?

He has a point. How exactly did the flesh change work? At the risk of sounding stupid, why exactly would it have not affected the marines who would go on to become the Blood Ravens?

In all honesty I did not know that there was a flesh change :S

The thousand sons gene-seed was unstable but Magnus managed to stabilise it... not sure what he did though...

Well, First off. it was Sanguinious who became pregnant. Corax is clearly male



the Flesh change was simply massive mutation from their new master Tzeench(who o so loves mutations)


the higher level 1k sons didn't like this so they cast the Rubric to counter act it. it worked, kinda.




the Blood Ravens are likely descended from 1k sons who weren't present at the burning of Prospero. since they didn't escape into the warp and give their souls to Tzeench they weren't effected by the Flesh Change.

these survivors, caught between Chaos and the Imperium, decide to lay low and continue to serve the IoM in secret.

then the Codex is written and the Chapters are created.

these survivors then come out into the open after a couple of foundings, declare themselves a chapter that has forgotten it's founding and they are fine.

Grey Templar wrote:the Blood Ravens are likely descended from 1k sons who weren't present at the burning of Prospero. since they didn't escape into the warp and give their souls to Tzeench they weren't effected by the Flesh Change.

these survivors, caught between Chaos and the Imperium, decide to lay low and continue to serve the IoM in secret.

then the Codex is written and the Chapters are created.

these survivors then come out into the open after a couple of foundings, declare themselves a chapter that has forgotten it's founding and they are fine.

I would assume that someone in the geneseed department would have eventually said, "Wait a minute, we don't have a record of these guys. What have we been doing with their geneseed tithes...?"

I suspect that the Blood Ravens had allies within the Imperium's beauracracy that were willing to help keep quiet about the whole thing (whether the "thing" was a group of 1Ksons that didn't follow Magnus or a secret founding using 1Ksons geneseed) - though at what cost I don't know. Once a few centuries had passed, all evidence of a cover-up would have been long since gone and the Blood Ravens would have been accepted merely due to the fact that they'd been a known chapter for a long period of time.

Supposedly they are unusually well connected to certain Imperial agencies, including a pact that allows them to recruit directly from the Scholastia Psykana (where psykers are evaluated and trained after being transported on the Black Ships).

The Blood Ravens' Great Father Azharia Vidya supposedly wrote that ignorance of their origins may be protecting them from the consequences of their past. He also iwas reported to have pulled off some strategic feats that were either the result of supreme intelligence gathering, or Magnus-like feats of divination...

Also they keep trying to make nice with the heroes of the Space Wolves.

purplefood wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:

Guildsman wrote:

obsidianaura wrote:I never wondered about this before I just assumed they were a new chapter made from blood angels.

If they really are decended from magnus wouldn't they suffer from the flesh change?

He has a point. How exactly did the flesh change work? At the risk of sounding stupid, why exactly would it have not affected the marines who would go on to become the Blood Ravens?

In all honesty I did not know that there was a flesh change :S

The thousand sons gene-seed was unstable but Magnus managed to stabilise it... not sure what he did though...

The geneseed of the Thousand sons was indeed unstable. They suffered massive spontanious mutation. This was happening even before the thousand sons were united with their primach.

To save them Magnus made a bargin with a great warp entity (strongly hinted as Tzeench) to prevent his legions flesh change. I can't remember what exactly the bargin was supposed to entail but it ended up tricking Magnus out of his soul

Brother Coa wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:It is strongly hinted that Sanguinius and Corax had an illecit affair for several years resulting in Corax's pregnancy. When they could no longer conceal the truth from the Emperor he forced Corax to give up the child for adoption.

That child became the first Blood Raven but never knew who his parents were.

WAIT.....
Corax is a man, Sanguinius is his BROTHER?
How the hell do they have kid?
IT'S NOT POSSIBLE!!!!

lol

Personally, I see it as there are 2 sides to what's going on with the Blood Ravens. - What GW think and portrays and what Relic/THQ do.


As far as GW is concerned in the Black Library, the Blood Ravens quite clearly come from the 1000 Sons.

However, for Relic/THQ, the 1000 Sons have barely been mentioned at all in their games. Therefore, it's not likely to be them and, to be honest, the only likely option is the Word Bearers.

Remember, Relics 'market' is far beyond 40k players, it's going to be pretty bad if, when they do their 'big reveal' about it, it's going to end up being "Oh, it's these dudes 80% of our players have never heard of."

you think that GW and THQ efforts into saying how many physics are in the chapter, you would see a hell of a lot more of them.

Compel wrote:Personally, I see it as there are 2 sides to what's going on with the Blood Ravens. - What GW think and portrays and what Relic/THQ do.


As far as GW is concerned in the Black Library, the Blood Ravens quite clearly come from the 1000 Sons.

However, for Relic/THQ, the 1000 Sons have barely been mentioned at all in their games. Therefore, it's not likely to be them and, to be honest, the only likely option is the Word Bearers.

Remember, Relics 'market' is far beyond 40k players, it's going to be pretty bad if, when they do their 'big reveal' about it, it's going to end up being "Oh, it's these dudes 80% of our players have never heard of."

T'zeentch over Nurgle in DoW2, I say.

Compel wrote:Personally, I see it as there are 2 sides to what's going on with the Blood Ravens. - What GW think and portrays and what Relic/THQ do.


As far as GW is concerned in the Black Library, the Blood Ravens quite clearly come from the 1000 Sons.

However, for Relic/THQ, the 1000 Sons have barely been mentioned at all in their games. Therefore, it's not likely to be them and, to be honest, the only likely option is the Word Bearers.

Remember, Relics 'market' is far beyond 40k players, it's going to be pretty bad if, when they do their 'big reveal' about it, it's going to end up being "Oh, it's these dudes 80% of our players have never heard of."

Where does it say they are 1000 Sons? I'd like to know more as I do like the Thousand Sons. Weren't all the Thousand sons Pykers?

And why is Apollo Diomedes have Blood Angel relic weapon in Retribution?
Maybe it's their connection with the Blood Angels?

That is clearly impossable.

the Blood Ravens can't be Blood Angel successors because they don't have the Red Thirst.


Relic is doing a good job of adhering to the fluff so i think they will enforce the 1k sons theory. especially since 1k sons will be in the next DoW2 game.

Cranberry Muffinman wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:It is strongly hinted that Sanguinius and Corax had an illecit affair for several years resulting in Corax's pregnancy. When they could no longer conceal the truth from the Emperor he forced Corax to give up the child for adoption.

That child became the first Blood Raven but never knew who his parents were.

WAIT.....
Corax is a man, Sanguinius is his BROTHER?
How the hell do they have kid?
IT'S NOT POSSIBLE!!!!

lol

ok did that actually happen? or are you making a joke. tell me.

DarthLakey wrote:

Cranberry Muffinman wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:It is strongly hinted that Sanguinius and Corax had an illecit affair for several years resulting in Corax's pregnancy. When they could no longer conceal the truth from the Emperor he forced Corax to give up the child for adoption.

That child became the first Blood Raven but never knew who his parents were.

WAIT.....
Corax is a man, Sanguinius is his BROTHER?
How the hell do they have kid?
IT'S NOT POSSIBLE!!!!

lol

ok did that actually happen? or are you making a joke. tell me.

It's a joke... or it it?

DarthLakey wrote:

Cranberry Muffinman wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:It is strongly hinted that Sanguinius and Corax had an illecit affair for several years resulting in Corax's pregnancy. When they could no longer conceal the truth from the Emperor he forced Corax to give up the child for adoption.

That child became the first Blood Raven but never knew who his parents were.

WAIT.....
Corax is a man, Sanguinius is his BROTHER?
How the hell do they have kid?
IT'S NOT POSSIBLE!!!!

lol

ok did that actually happen? or are you making a joke. tell me.

Hey calm down , it was just a joke. Of course Sanguignius and Corax did not have a child together. LOL This joke worked so well, I can't believe it. Well done Kid Kyoto!

Concerning the BA weapons wielded by Blood Ravens, it is said in the game that Blood Ravens armorers claim that a ceremonial exchange of arms took place in M37 between the two chapters. However, It is also said that BA archivists keep no reccord of any such event. Did the Blood Ravens somehow steal BA wargear?

Oh I get it SAnguinius was primarch of the BLOOD angels and Corax was primarch of the RAVEN Guard, put them together and you get Blood Ravens

DarthLakey wrote:Oh I get it SAnguinius was primarch of the BLOOD angels and Corax was primarch of the RAVEN Guard, put them together and you get Blood Ravens

LOL!!!

Well done, thumbs up

It's weird that Thousand Sons have never come up outside of the Black Library books. Perhaps it's another Alpha Legion plot.

Its magnus in no way can they ever be descended from the black legion, or the blood angels, as they do not have high concentrations of pyskers. So they are Magnus's sons. But they are ravens of blood and it was predicted.

The Blood Angels actually have quite a few Psykers too so the connection is understandable.


Relic really picked a good name. it does add that Aura of Mystery that is present in many 40k stories.

Doesn't the blood ravens have a large number of librarians in their chapter. I've also read some obscure reference to them in Thousand sons.
so much secrecy

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:It is strongly hinted that Sanguinius and Corax had an illecit affair for several years resulting in Corax's pregnancy. When they could no longer conceal the truth from the Emperor he forced Corax to give up the child for adoption.

That child became the first Blood Raven but never knew who his parents were.

WAIT.....
Corax is a man, Sanguinius is his BROTHER?
How the hell do they have kid?
IT'S NOT POSSIBLE!!!!

See this bothers me when people post in this forum but don't really know the fluff.

Corax and Sanguinius were not 'men' they were genetically engineered primarchs with additional hearts and lungs, wings and psychic powers. Now surely the Emperor as he was genetically engineering them would also include the ability to reproduce? After all he planned for an Empire to last millennia and in the long run I'd rather have genetic superman who can reporduce than genectic superman who can spit poison (though, all things being equal, I'd like to have both).

The only reason Corax's pregnancy was problematic is he was promised to Fulgrim and the Emperor's strict pro-life policy did not allow him to terminate the child.

Thats wrong. Seriously, thats messed up.

Although kinda kinky. I think I a film like that once. Actually, nvm

This has been one hell of a good thread to read. I LOVE the Blood Ravens, and soak up any info I come across.

Keep it coming...

Waiting for DoW2-part 2.


Inquisition's getting involved.

Grey Templar wrote:Waiting for DoW2-part 2.


Inquisition's getting involved.

OH SNAP it just got real!!!

DoW2- Retribution right??? THAT'S why the IG are back!!!!

Just adding my thoughts after reading A Thousand Sons

SPOILER Ahriman mentions that many warriors chose to enter stasis to wait until flesh change could be cured SPOILER

Maybe these warriors were later discovered and, having not witnessed the Heresy, would join the crumbling Imperium

Seeing as how the Thousand Sons were ranked third in Relic's "Which marine chapter would you like to see in a game" poll, it is likely this may come into play.

DarthLakey wrote:Oh I get it SAnguinius was primarch of the BLOOD angels and Corax was primarch of the RAVEN Guard, put them together and you get Blood Ravens

Wow it seems someone stole this from me a long time ago,

Kallimakus wrote:Just adding my thoughts after reading A Thousand Sons

SPOILER Ahriman mentions that many warriors chose to enter stasis to wait until flesh change could be cured SPOILER

Maybe these warriors were later discovered and, having not witnessed the Heresy, would join the crumbling Imperium

Well that's the thing, the flesh change wasn't really cured, nor can it be cured (at least that's what I think). The flesh change probably has something to do with the warp and that power becomes unstable causing such mutations to occur. Those in stasis are basically stuck there, there isn't much that can be done to reverse those changes.
These warriors, if discovered after the Imperium, would most likely killed and branded as mutants, or chaos marines. Flailing tentacles really aren't what the IoM is looking for in a SM chapter

Good idea though.

I always assumed it was Sanguinus, the Thousand Sons thing is interesting though.

Well other than that one line in the Thousand Son's book, I haven't seen anything else about them.

Just do a paternity test... that'll solve all the issues!

Ashryu wrote:I always assumed it was Sanguinus, the Thousand Sons thing is interesting though.

i thought so as well until it became evident that they didn't suffer from red thirst.
Still might be possible GW obviously don't want us to find out.

'Cyrus later reveals that Thule had found and read records of the Blood Ravens origins during the Kronus Campaign, but destroyed them. While it is likely that the documents did not reveal the corruption in the chapter ranks, the revelation that the Blood Ravens have possibly descended from a traitor legion could potentially tear the Chapter apart.'

thats off the lexicanum so I'm betting on the Thousand Sons

Thousand Sons got my vote.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:It is strongly hinted that Sanguinius and Corax had an illecit affair for several years resulting in Corax's pregnancy. When they could no longer conceal the truth from the Emperor he forced Corax to give up the child for adoption.

That child became the first Blood Raven but never knew who his parents were.

Oh my god too awesome


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Grey Templar wrote:That is clearly impossable.

the Blood Ravens can't be Blood Angel successors because they don't have the Red Thirst.


Relic is doing a good job of adhering to the fluff so i think they will enforce the 1k sons theory. especially since 1k sons will be in the next DoW2 game.

Lamenters are descendants of the blood angels and dont have the red thirst or black rage, it could be argued that these gene flaws are psychological flaws brought out by the process of ensanguination and the particular pyscho indoctrination methods the blood angels and there successors employ. For all we know they could be blood angel successors or even of hybrid gene seed descent would be pretty neat if they were a hybrid of corax and sanguinius's gene seed would make the name that much more apt as well.

Lamenters do have the flaws, but have learned to control them so well.

Cerebrium wrote:Lamenters do have the flaws, but have learned to control them so well.

The codex states explicitly that they managed to "remove" the flaw using some kind of high tech experiments but it somehow left them with ... bad luck

Interesting arguement. I hadn't thought of that.

It could be possible...

Here's what I see in favour for the Blood Ravens being BA successors:

blood in name (obviously)
similar armour

against:
cannot use the "No black rage or red thirst" because as Chrono said, they could have possibly pulled a Lamentors.


for the Thousand sons arguement:

more psykers (chapter master is one)
similar to thousand sons pre-heresy armour
prophesy in thousand sons novel depicting the raven of blood
thirst for knowledge

against:

absence of flesh change

There could be more points for the BA successors but seeing as I'm in the Thousand Sons successors camp, I don't have any more

Perhaps they're a successor legion, OR there primarch is Indrick Boreale.

Grey Templar wrote:The Blood Angels actually have quite a few Psykers too so the connection is understandable.


Relic really picked a good name. it does add that Aura of Mystery that is present in many 40k stories.

You know, here's what always throws me about these theories.

Do people not realize that the whole "psychic" connection could just be relating to the Blood Ravens' original homeworld, which they purged themselves?

The psykers you find within an Astartes Chapter aren't by coincidence. The Chapters pretty much single them out during the selection process because of that psyker ability.
The Librarian descriptions we've had in Index Astartes and most recently "Deathwatch: Rites of Battle" even say as much.

So throw the psyker connection out, it's likely an abnormality that was trademark of the Blood Ravens' original homeworld.
None of their recruits from Meridian(like Thaddeus) or elsewhere(Tarkus and the Commander for example) are psykers.

Cyrene wasn't the Blood Ravens' homeworld, it was one of their recruiting planets. They've been a fleet-based chapter for the entirety of their recorded history. Cyrene was the homeworld of Captain Angelos, and he was forced to consign it to Exterminatus. That planet did have a high incidence of Psykers, but Index Astartes said that that seems to be the case on many Blood Raven recruiting worlds.

That the Blood Ravens have many psykers is not itself a clue to their origins; that they hold psykers in high regard and cultivate them to such a degree may well be.

Magnus stopped the flesh change by making a deal with Tzeentch. That deal with Tzeenth occured long before the destruction of Prospero where he made another deal, this time to save his sons. He gave up one of his eyes (and God knows what else) in exchange for his sons not being mutated, likely soon after he was found by the Emperor. So the one eye was not there since the beginning and I'd like to know what story he told his daddy.

Magnus was a nice papa. No wonder he was so pissed off when Ahriman did his thing.

Exopheric wrote:Cyrene wasn't the Blood Ravens' homeworld, it was one of their recruiting planets. They've been a fleet-based chapter for the entirety of their recorded history. Cyrene was the homeworld of Captain Angelos, and he was forced to consign it to Exterminatus. That planet did have a high incidence of Psykers, but Index Astartes said that that seems to be the case on many Blood Raven recruiting worlds.

That the Blood Ravens have many psykers is not itself a clue to their origins; that they hold psykers in high regard and cultivate them to such a degree may well be.

Them holding psykers in high regard isn't a clue to their origins.

Every Chapter that fields Librarians holds psykers in high regard.

Them cultivating psykers might be a clue though.

Probably has nothing to do with actual fluff. Maybe it's just coincidental...

The name Ahriman is Indo-Iranian. Ahriman the psyker was plucked out of the "Achaemenid Empire" in the future that is the 40k universe by the Emperor on Terra.

The Emperor is from "Anatolia", which historically was controlled by the Persians (who also founded the real Achamenid empire) and heavily settled by greek peoples. Then, falling under the control of the Greeks through Alexander the Great and the Western Roman empire in the guise of the Byzantines, umm, who were really greeks in the first place.

Many of the characters names in the Blood Ravens are of languages associated with that expanse of land which extends from the eastern mediterranean and on to the Indus River. This would include anything of Greek, Hebrew, Iranian or Indian naming conventions which many of the characters associated with the Blood Ravens seem to have. The Achamenid Empire on Terra included all the areas mentioned to some degree and even controlled Egypt which seems to be a strong theme withiin the Thousand Sons.

The following though, is the strongest "proof" that the Blood Ravens are indeed the decendants of the loyalist "Thousand Sons".

Azariah Vidya (the psyker hero/one-time chapter master of the Blood Ravens) whose name broken down is, Azariah = Hebrew "helped by god" and the Indic Vidya = "knowledge".

Which in turn also happens to be similar to the surname of Hank Azaria who is of Hebrew and Greek extraction and does many voices for the "Simpsons" T.V. show.

One character in particular makes me laugh, Apu Nahasapeemapetilon. He hails from Calcutta, in India... er, which wasn't ever within the Achaemenid Empire, but Apu is, in point of fact, an Indian... and fictional like Azariah Vidya. Apu's favorite song (according to Wikipedia) is the "Dream Police" (which the loyalist Thousands Sons must surely be in order to maintain the lie...) written by the band "Cheap Trick" (which explains a lot from some points of view) and THAT by itself must surely be enough to put this mystery to rest.

You're right that probably is a coincidence.

I think in the third Blood Ravens book Airhman was talking to i think a Blood raven and said they had many things in common

No way they could be descended from the Blood Angels. The Ravens show no sign at all of The Flaw, wich makes itsself evident in all of the Sons of Sanguinius. I lean towards the Ravens being a loyalist splinter on the Thousand Sons, because of their high rate of psykers, and because of the passage in A Thousand Sons.

The Blood Ravens aren't the only chapter which is known for valuing strong psykers. Both the Howling Gryphons and the Silver Skulls have a similar preference for a powerful psykercorps.
Goto's books can be more or less disregarded imo, nothing from them has ever found entry into the DoW games which should be considered the mainsource of fluff for that particular
chapter (they are after all "Relic's chapter" ).

KingDeath wrote:The Blood Ravens aren't the only chapter which is known for valuing strong psykers. Both the Howling Gryphons and the Silver Skulls have a similar preference for a powerful psykercorps.
Goto's books can be more or less disregarded imo, nothing from them has ever found entry into the DoW games which should be considered the mainsource of fluff for that particular
chapter (they are after all "Relic's chapter" ).

Indeed. In fact, Matt Ward(in this month's WD article on the Furioso and Stormraven kits) states that BA have the largest number of Librarians of any chapter, so if anyone should get a Libby dread, they(BA) should.

Very insightful thread.

Thanks!

Eumerin wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the Blood Ravens are likely descended from 1k sons who weren't present at the burning of Prospero. since they didn't escape into the warp and give their souls to Tzeench they weren't effected by the Flesh Change.

these survivors, caught between Chaos and the Imperium, decide to lay low and continue to serve the IoM in secret.

then the Codex is written and the Chapters are created.

these survivors then come out into the open after a couple of foundings, declare themselves a chapter that has forgotten it's founding and they are fine.

I would assume that someone in the geneseed department would have eventually said, "Wait a minute, we don't have a record of these guys. What have we been doing with their geneseed tithes...?"

I suspect that the Blood Ravens had allies within the Imperium's beauracracy that were willing to help keep quiet about the whole thing (whether the "thing" was a group of 1Ksons that didn't follow Magnus or a secret founding using 1Ksons geneseed) - though at what cost I don't know. Once a few centuries had passed, all evidence of a cover-up would have been long since gone and the Blood Ravens would have been accepted merely due to the fact that they'd been a known chapter for a long period of time.

I don't think that it would work quite that way, either. Barring the Flesh Change issue (which had been around since the Great Crusade, and according to fluff was only "cured" by the Rubric), a loyalist splinter group of the Thousand Sons could have been reintegrated into the IoM under a different persona, but not by themselves. On the other hand, there were folks like Garro and his retinue, who were plucked by Malcador as loyal marines who didn't follow their respective legions into corruption. If there were an entire group with several hundred or even a thousand marines in a similar situation it would seem rather foolish to simply throw them away as much as it would be to hate the knife for the hand that wields it. That they didn't show up again until after the Heresy and the formulation and implementation of the Codex can possibly be attributed to training, reorganization and realignment, and/or even research with the Mechanicus (with whom the Blood Ravens seem to get along quite well with). Being derived/distilled from a traitor legion would also explain a great deal why their geneseed is tested so frequently, and why the Inquisition like hang out with them so much. I'll be quite interested in how it turns out, too...

there are chapters who do not send Geneseed tithes to Terra, or ones who send Geneseed that is suspected to not be their own.


the Black Dragon are subject to numerous mutations, but all their tithes have come back clean. its suspected they have fooled the system.



the Blood Ravens could have done the same.





Geneseed also changes over time. gradually it becomes unique to the chapter. its possable the place of origin is impossable for the Mechanicus to detect.

or the Mechanicus might be turning a blind eye to the fact in exchange for favors.

Grey Templar wrote:there are chapters who do not send Geneseed tithes to Terra, or ones who send Geneseed that is suspected to not be their own.


the Dragon Warriors are subject to numerous mutations, but all their tithes have come back clean. its suspected they have fooled the system.



the Blood Ravens could have done the same.





Geneseed also changes over time. gradually it becomes unique to the chapter. its possable the place of origin is impossable for the Mechanicus to detect.

or the Mechanicus might be turning a blind eye to the fact in exchange for favors.

Sorry to be nit picky... but do you mean the Black Dragons? Dragon Warriors are a chaos warband I believe (see Salamander)

Yeah, thats what i meant.

Because of the several thinly veiled arguments hardly disguised as debates I decided to go back and read "A Thousand Sons" again myself, and it seems that I was a little off in what I had said before. I'm paraphrasing here, but between pp.380-88 it says basically that a few decades after the Flesh Change hit them, they reunited with Magnus, who then stepped up to the plate to save his gene-kiddos, doing his "mysterious procedure" and stabilizing the genetic structure of the least-effected legionnaires. After that that there were barely a thousand, er, Sons left.

Blood Ravens Specialty: Large number of Librarians
*COUGH* *ASTHMA ATTACK* *KSDJLKSFJDLFJLKJFDK* Sounds familiar ebough to the thousand sons ?

1K Sons Specialty: Large number of psykers

Or they're Grey Knights Successors.



Blood Ravens have a large number of Librarians because, hinted at from their get-go, they recruited from worlds heavy with psyker populations.

It's what led to Angelos purging a planet. It cannot be Thousand Sons because they have not manifested psyker abilities in every single Battle-Brother, nor are their current crop of Librarians exhibiting powers above the norm or in any of the unique ways that the Thousand Sons did.

Khorne Flakes wrote:Blood Ravens Specialty: Large number of Librarians
*COUGH* *ASTHMA ATTACK* *KSDJLKSFJDLFJLKJFDK* Sounds familiar ebough to the thousand sons ?

1K Sons Specialty: Large number of psykers

Wow i don't think ANYONE has ever realised that!
Truly sir you are a genius of unimaginable magnitude!
Forget savng a mere city with your deductive powers, we need your mind working on biger problems like saving the world from global warming and terrorism whilst also creating peace on Earth and another series of Doctor Who as fast as oyu can.
I have faith in your abilities...


Oh yeah [/Sarcasm]

purplefood wrote:

Khorne Flakes wrote:Blood Ravens Specialty: Large number of Librarians
*COUGH* *ASTHMA ATTACK* *KSDJLKSFJDLFJLKJFDK* Sounds familiar ebough to the thousand sons ?

1K Sons Specialty: Large number of psykers

Wow i don't think ANYONE has ever realised that!
Truly sir you are a genius of unimaginable magnitude!
Forget savng a mere city with your deductive powers, we need your mind working on biger problems like saving the world from global warming and terrorism whilst also creating peace on Earth and another series of Doctor Who as fast as oyu can.
I have faith in your abilities...


Oh yeah [/Sarcasm]

that made me lolz

purplefood wrote:
Forget savng a mere city with your deductive powers, we need your mind working on biger problems like saving the world from global warming and terrorism whilst also creating peace on Earth.

It's really easy, you only need to disband nations and states. And tell everyone that from this day on there is no nations, no states - only one race. And to make everyone part of 1 culture ( probably the mix of almost every culture out there ) and to disband religions to, also to cut the monopoly of money and add simple trade instead.
There, all problem will be solved. No terrorism, no wars, everyone work toward the grater good and the planet would be cleanse as everyone would be going toward progressing faster with technological advancement since there would be no need for competition anymore.
Not to much of a problem...

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:
Forget savng a mere city with your deductive powers, we need your mind working on biger problems like saving the world from global warming and terrorism whilst also creating peace on Earth.

It's really easy, you only need to disband nations and states. And tell everyone that from this day on there is no nations, no states - only one race. And to make everyone part of 1 culture ( probably the mix of almost every culture out there ) and to disband religions to, also to cut the monopoly of money and add simple trade instead.
There, all problem will be solved. No terrorism, no wars, everyone work toward the grater good and the planet would be cleanse as everyone would be going toward progressing faster with technological advancement since there would be no need for competition anymore.
Not to much of a problem...

You clearly have no understanding of humans or society...
Also technology advances quicker during times of conflict...
Peace is just short of inimical to humanity... possible but very difficult.

In before the lock for thread necro when there is a discussion with practically the same title still on the first page.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:It is strongly hinted that Sanguinius

Problem is that they don't all turn into a bunch of pretty boys and a problem with people needing to join the death company! I think the hints are far stronger for the thousand sons, they have vey similar traits, of course it may well be the case that it isn't a single geneseed but a combination of several one of those being the thousand sons?

purplefood wrote:
You clearly have no understanding of humans or society...

I have understanding, our societies are like spoiled brats. You just need to discipline them a little and they will all work toward the grater good.
And if idealistic enough, any Human can follow principles. Especially if you bombard him with enough propaganda from little age...

Yeah, several people have had that attitude in the past Coa, lets just say that said oppressors aren't exactly well thought of.

iproxtaco wrote:Yeah, several people have had that attitude in the past Coa, lets just say that said oppressors aren't exactly well thought of.

I have leaned something under this "democracy". And that is that if you give people way to much freedom the whole society will fall apart. I was more thinking about learning our children the full value of life, instead of letting them learn on their own.
We actually live better and more peaceful under the communism then now in democracy.

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:
You clearly have no understanding of humans or society...

I have understanding, our societies are like spoiled brats. You just need to discipline them a little and they will all work toward the grater good.
And if idealistic enough, any Human can follow principles. Especially if you bombard him with enough propaganda from little age...

No you don't...
Take for example Europe. It has several countries that are so different that combining them would practically be an affront to their culture.
Each contry no matter how... divided has pride in itself even if they have nothing to take pride in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Yeah, several people have had that attitude in the past Coa, lets just say that said oppressors aren't exactly well thought of.

I have leaned something under this "democracy". And that is that if you give people way to much freedom the whole society will fall apart. I was more thinking about learning our children the full value of life, instead of letting them learn on their own.
We actually live better and more peaceful under the communism then now in democracy.

Too much freedom is bad but so is no freedom at all.
If you give people no freedom at all then what's the point of living if all you do is what you're told.
And teaching children is the responsibility of the parent... if they have no parents then the state finds someone willing and hopefully suitable to take them in and act as parents...

At any rate this thread is so off-topic it's absurd.

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:
Forget savng a mere city with your deductive powers, we need your mind working on biger problems like saving the world from global warming and terrorism whilst also creating peace on Earth.

It's really easy, you only need to disband nations and states. And tell everyone that from this day on there is no nations, no states - only one race. And to make everyone part of 1 culture ( probably the mix of almost every culture out there ) and to disband religions to, also to cut the monopoly of money and add simple trade instead.
There, all problem will be solved. No terrorism, no wars, everyone work toward the grater good and the planet would be cleanse as everyone would be going toward progressing faster with technological advancement since there would be no need for competition anymore.
Not to much of a problem...

That doesnt sound real easy too me :(

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Yeah, several people have had that attitude in the past Coa, lets just say that said oppressors aren't exactly well thought of.

I have leaned something under this "democracy". And that is that if you give people way to much freedom the whole society will fall apart. I was more thinking about learning our children the full value of life, instead of letting them learn on their own.
We actually live better and more peaceful under the communism then now in democracy.

Well I never said Democracy was the absolute solution, as it ends up not really being what it is defined as. Teaching children morals is the responsibility of the parent, regardless of culture or political structure.
I'm also not just talking about communism, as flawed as it has been in the past, just Dictatorships and despots in general.

USA!USA!USA! CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRACY!USA!USA!USA!

dajobe wrote:USA!USA!USA! CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRACY!USA!USA!USA!

We have an unconstitutional democracy... technically...

purplefood wrote:

dajobe wrote:USA!USA!USA! CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRACY!USA!USA!USA!

We have an unconstitutional democracy... technically...

USA!USA!USA!USA!USA!USA!USA!
I view the USA like I view the imperium, yeah, there are some cruddy aspects about our society, but its a heck of a lot better than anywhere else!

dajobe wrote:

purplefood wrote:

dajobe wrote:USA!USA!USA! CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRACY!USA!USA!USA!

We have an unconstitutional democracy... technically...

USA!USA!USA!USA!USA!USA!USA!
I view the USA like I view the imperium, yeah, there are some cruddy aspects about our society, but its a heck of a lot better than anywhere else!

Debatable...
The USA is a strange country to say the least... everywhere has its flaws however.
Even Britain...

purplefood wrote:

dajobe wrote:USA!USA!USA! CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRACY!USA!USA!USA!

We have an unconstitutional democracy... technically...

Representative democratic republic, actually.

Although given that we frequently (read: always) are stuck choosing between the lesser of two evils, there's not much truly democratic about it.

Omegus wrote:

purplefood wrote:

dajobe wrote:USA!USA!USA! CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRACY!USA!USA!USA!

We have an unconstitutional democracy... technically...

Representative democratic republic, actually.

Although given that we frequently (read: always) are stuck choosing between the lesser of two evils, there's not much truly democratic about it.

I love this country and it's particular method of government... it's just so... British...

I miss the part where it is so british? Yes, much of our system is based upon theirs, but they are really quite different, i have taken comparative politics classes and although there are many similiarities there are many differences...but this is getting way off topic, I personally am for Magnus because i think thousand sons are sweet!

dajobe wrote:I miss the part where it is so british? Yes, much of our system is based upon theirs, but they are really quite different, i have taken comparative politics classes and although there are many similiarities there are many differences...but this is getting way off topic, I personally am for Magnus because i think thousand sons are sweet!

YEah i'm British and i live in britain...
The flag went walk about and Lego supposedly reset it but it didn't quite stick...
Trust me, I'm British.

As I said, there are many similiarities, and many differences. But that can be said about most forms of democracy, most have many overarching similarities with a few major defining differences, but overall, most democracies operate in a similiar manner, hence they are all in the category democracies

We actually owe very little to the british parlamentary system.

we are more based upon the Greek and Roman democratic systems.


practically the only thing we kept from the Parlamentary system was the idea of 2 houses. but those 2 houses are very different from the british system.


1: you actually have to be from the area you are running for office from(none of this stupid running from anywhere you darn well please)

2: both houses are elected(house of lords is not elected)



we brought the idea of every citizen having a vote from the Greeks and Romans(currently anyway, it took some time to shake the old ways) not the British.

we also elect our Head of State. the british only do this in practice with a PM(who is only the head of Government)

there are still similarities that exist, but yes, i would say that the American democracy, although similiar to many other democracies is quite uniqe(AND AWESOME)

Holy off-topic necromancy Bat Man!

On Topic: Magnus, it's all been said in the hundreds of threads on this subject.

Off Topic: USA is a democratic republic with a system based on Greek/Roman governments. USA reintroduced democracy into modern culture.

Many people disagree with Magnus...
I know Kan does and i know i don't like it.

well, it fits almost completely and it has support from GW(as much support as they give such conspiracy theories)

purplefood wrote:
No you don't...
Take for example Europe. It has several countries that are so different that combining them would practically be an affront to their culture.
Each contry no matter how... divided has pride in itself even if they have nothing to take pride in.

And then you have European Union...the proof that even with language and cultural difference people can live together in harmony. I don't even know what would they need borders for anymore when you can pass border checkpoint with personal ID, sometimes without that at all. Just look at USA, it's made of 52 states. Living proof that people can indeed work toward grater good.

purplefood wrote:Too much freedom is bad but so is no freedom at all.
If you give people no freedom at all then what's the point of living if all you do is what you're told. ( There is only the Emperor - and he is our shield and protector!!! I have no problem with that )
And teaching children is the responsibility of the parent... if they have no parents then the state finds someone willing and hopefully suitable to take them in and act as parents....

I didn't say that there should be no freedom, I just appointed that to much freedom is dangerous thing. In Yugoslavia during 60-is and 70-is, people have freedom like average American, even if we where under communism. But there was no theft ( 3 or 4 theft for whole year ), no murders ( 2 murders in whole year ), no gangs, no drug and no prostitution. I just want to appoint that people had a lot of rights, they even complained about the work of random administrators. But people know better than to toy with state or police. Today people have no respect for anyone, even the police. And all because they didn't teach their children like they should.

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:
No you don't...
Take for example Europe. It has several countries that are so different that combining them would practically be an affront to their culture.
Each contry no matter how... divided has pride in itself even if they have nothing to take pride in.

And then you have European Union...the proof that even with language and cultural difference people can live together in harmony. I don't even know what would they need borders for anymore when you can pass border checkpoint with personal ID, sometimes without that at all. Just look at USA, it's made of 52 states. Living proof that people can indeed work toward grater good.

purplefood wrote:Too much freedom is bad but so is no freedom at all.
If you give people no freedom at all then what's the point of living if all you do is what you're told. ( There is only the Emperor - and he is our shield and protector!!! I have no problem with that )
And teaching children is the responsibility of the parent... if they have no parents then the state finds someone willing and hopefully suitable to take them in and act as parents....

I didn't say that there should be no freedom, I just appointed that to much freedom is dangerous thing. In Yugoslavia during 60-is and 70-is, people have freedom like average American, even if we where under communism. But there was no theft ( 3 or 4 theft for whole year ), no murders ( 2 murders in whole year ), no gangs, no drug and no prostitution. I just want to appoint that people had a lot of rights, they even complained about the work of random administrators. But people know better than to toy with state or police. Today people have no respect for anyone, even the police. And all because they didn't teach their children like they should.

The European union is a trading agreement with bits attatched. For the previous 1000 or so years Europe has been the site of the bloodiest battles in history. The USA is a group of states that share a very similar heritage on culture. Europe is very different both culture wise and language.
You can't blame that purely on the parents... there are at least half a dozen other factors when it comes to things like this.

iproxtaco wrote:
Well I never said Democracy was the absolute solution, as it ends up not really being what it is defined as. Teaching children morals is the responsibility of the parent, regardless of culture or political structure.
I'm also not just talking about communism, as flawed as it has been in the past, just Dictatorships and despots in general.

Not to tech them that responsibility, but to teach them what is right and what is wrong ( witch most parents today are letting their kid to learn that all by himself ). And we Humans are that in nature, we would all follow one leader. But when he dies we would kill each other to replace him or to split the remains of his rule ( just see our example ).
The best course of action is to give all military, social and political power of all states in the world to UN council. Only problem is USA, they won't give that much power so easily...

actually, there are 50 states, but i do agree with your point

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:
No you don't...
Take for example Europe. It has several countries that are so different that combining them would practically be an affront to their culture.
Each contry no matter how... divided has pride in itself even if they have nothing to take pride in.

And then you have European Union...the proof that even with language and cultural difference people can live together in harmony. I don't even know what would they need borders for anymore when you can pass border checkpoint with personal ID, sometimes without that at all. Just look at USA, it's made of 52 states. Living proof that people can indeed work toward grater good.

purplefood wrote:Too much freedom is bad but so is no freedom at all.
If you give people no freedom at all then what's the point of living if all you do is what you're told. ( There is only the Emperor - and he is our shield and protector!!! I have no problem with that )
And teaching children is the responsibility of the parent... if they have no parents then the state finds someone willing and hopefully suitable to take them in and act as parents....

I didn't say that there should be no freedom, I just appointed that to much freedom is dangerous thing. In Yugoslavia during 60-is and 70-is, people have freedom like average American, even if we where under communism. But there was no theft ( 3 or 4 theft for whole year ), no murders ( 2 murders in whole year ), no gangs, no drug and no prostitution. I just want to appoint that people had a lot of rights, they even complained about the work of random administrators. But people know better than to toy with state or police. Today people have no respect for anyone, even the police. And all because they didn't teach their children like they should.

yeah, the EU is working out great with 1/2 of its members going bankrupt.


I would not be the least bit surprised if the Euro fails catastrophically within the next decade and all those countries that used it fall into complete chaos.

purplefood wrote:
The European union is a trading agreement with bits attatched. For the previous 1000 or so years Europe has been the site of the bloodiest battles in history. The USA is a group of states that share a very similar heritage on culture. Europe is very different both culture wise and language.

That's my point, after more than 1000 years of bloodiest conflicts in history Europe is at peace like never before. If we can do it - Mankind can do it.

You can't blame that purely on the parents... there are at least half a dozen other factors when it comes to things like this.

You are right, there are also moral issues with certain countries ( political conflicts, rasism, nationalism, economic instability, drugs, gangs etc... ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dajobe wrote:actually, there are 50 states, but i do agree with your point

Aren't the Alaska and Hawaii 51'st and 52'nd state?

nope, 49 and 50, with hawaii coming in 1960 i believe(didnt fact check the date)

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:
The European union is a trading agreement with bits attatched. For the previous 1000 or so years Europe has been the site of the bloodiest battles in history. The USA is a group of states that share a very similar heritage on culture. Europe is very different both culture wise and language.

That's my point, after more than 1000 years of bloodiest conflicts in history Europe is at peace like never before. If we can do it - Mankind can do it.

You can't blame that purely on the parents... there are at least half a dozen other factors when it comes to things like this.

You are right, there are also moral issues with certain countries ( political conflicts, rasism, nationalism, economic instability, drugs, gangs etc... ).

Actually i was talking about the fact that when raising a child it isn't just the parents that teach it...
There are several ISAs that give you ideologies as you grow up.
Also The EU isn't what stopped the fighting in Europe the fact it is way too expensive to fight major wars, the massive casualties in WWII and WWI and the 'threat of communism' is what stopped the fighting in Europe.
That an America taking part in the UN... that possibly helped as well.

Grey Templar wrote:
yeah, the EU is working out great with 1/2 of its members going bankrupt.

I would not be the least bit surprised if the Euro fails catastrophically within the next decade and all those countries that used it fall into complete chaos.

Off course when people are idiots and they are taking credits like madman...
Everybody here also thinks that EU is one big piggy bank that only gives money to all.
Because everyone has a better motto " why save for 7 years when we can buy it now and return in 5 years". In the end you return almost half more than you would pay normally.
One more point why people need to be educated from the earliest days...

I say kill them all and let their god sort them out.

Well Atheists are doomed then...

purplefood wrote:[
Actually i was talking about the fact that when raising a child it isn't just the parents that teach it...
There are several ISAs that give you ideologies as you grow up.

And that is why I am talking about. The parents must tell it's kid why all that happened and what is good moral side and what bad. Or the kid will like the first thing he hear in school.

Also The EU isn't what stopped the fighting in Europe the fact it is way too expensive to fight major wars, the massive casualties in WWII and WWI and the 'threat of communism' is what stopped the fighting in Europe.
That an America taking part in the UN... that possibly helped as well.

It's the effect of "we had enough wars, can we all just get along and be friends?". And while you are right about WW1, WW2 and communism, the people was really inspired the fact that they could do more it their life than to be trained to kill one another. The whole idea of EU was to break down borders and bring men together, share cultures and to respect the people that they are, not by where they are coming from. And when all saw the destructive side of Atom Bomb...it make world to think more about peace, because if WW3 ever happen - it will be the last on this planet.

Their souls will go to the blood god!

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:[
Actually i was talking about the fact that when raising a child it isn't just the parents that teach it...
There are several ISAs that give you ideologies as you grow up.

And that is why I am talking about. The parents must tell it's kid why all that happened and what is good moral side and what bad. Or the kid will like the first thing he hear in school.

Also The EU isn't what stopped the fighting in Europe the fact it is way too expensive to fight major wars, the massive casualties in WWII and WWI and the 'threat of communism' is what stopped the fighting in Europe.
That an America taking part in the UN... that possibly helped as well.

It's the effect of "we had enough wars, can we all just get along and be friends?". And while you are right about WW1, WW2 and communism, the people was really inspired the fact that they could do more it their life than to be trained to kill one another. The whole idea of EU was to break down borders and bring men together, share cultures and to respect the people that they are, not by where they are coming from. And when all saw the destructive side of Atom Bomb...it make world to think more about peace, because if WW3 ever happen - it will be the last on this planet.

You really think it broke down the borders?
The amount of racism i have heard of from many of the countries in the EU is fairly astounding...
A child doens't just listen to its parents though... a child will listen to many different sources and eventually one of them will win. It may not be the one the parents believe in however. You seem to be under the impression that a parent controls everything the child thinks, this isn't true it's the opposite in fact.

Parents do have a fair amount of sway among their childrents opinions, especially in politics. Of the people i know, i'd bet that 90% have the same political views as that which their parents had growing up. Now its not always the case, but many children do try to emulate both their parents opinions and actions in order to gain approval

dajobe wrote:Parents do have a fair amount of sway among their childrents opinions, especially in politics. Of the people i know, i'd bet that 90% have the same political views as that which their parents had growing up. Now its not always the case, but many children do try to emulate both their parents opinions and actions in order to gain approval

They have a fair amount but they do not have total control especially in this day and age they have even less cotnrol than they did 20+ years ago.

If anything, children tend to rebel against their parents' viewpoints, often just for the sake of rebelling.

That's why you have to beat them.

And that's just harsh.

And necessary. And effective.


And fun.

It isn't necessary it might be effective and that last point sounds more like you're joking now...

*Sounds the Kanulwen horn* I fear he may be here shortly.

Anyway, I for one prescribe to his school of thoight-it is extremely extremely extremely (X1000) that Blood Ravens use Magnus' geneseed. I honestly cannot comprehend what possible reason the Imperium would have for wanting to use Traitor geneseed-because yeah, that went SO well last time-and even if they did I doubt they would want to use the Thousand Sons, which was already untsable when they were loyal. Yes, Ahriman pressed the big red floaty magicy button and 'solved the problem' (sort of), but I honestly doubt that would have affected the geneseed that hadn't yet been implanted into new aspirants and even if it had are the Imperium even aware of what the Rubric truly was? For the vast majority, I'd say no.
Now, is it possible that the Blood Ravens were descended from Thousand sons who didn't retreat into the eye with the rest of their legion, and stayed 'loyal' to the Emperor? Yes, and in fact that's extremely likely-without giving too much away Age of Darkness pretty much confirms this. I personally believe that they're like the Grey Knights, the founding members were from Traitor Legions but the modern (so to speak) incarnations of the chapter use their own geneseed, probably pulled from the Ultramarines or somesuch.
I belive we're rushing to conclusions with the whole 'secrets' thing. A fair few chapters have secrets-the Dark Angels for one. *Gasp* wait a minute, the Dark ANgels chapter icon has wings on it! So does the Blood Raven's! CONSPIRACY!!!
Basically, what I'm trying to say is that whilst maybe Magnus was the founder of the Blood Ravens-indirectly, but still-it wouldn't be fair to call him their Primarch. Because, quite frankly, he isn't.

Just my 2p.

I've already posted in this thread.

And most of the other ones.
As a sidenote, there's a part of the Index Astartes that hints at Blood Ravens having Dark Angels geneseed present. The only mention of Thousand Sons within there is a parable used by Puritanical Inquisition elements that amounts to "If the Blood Ravens keep predicting events with such clarity, they might end up going the way of Magnus".

Now stop sounding the horn. I'm trying to read the Warmachine Prime Mk2 book!

*Puts Horn down slightly ashamadly.* I must be going blind .

purplefood wrote:
A child doens't just listen to its parents though... a child will listen to many different sources and eventually one of them will win. It may not be the one the parents believe in however. You seem to be under the impression that a parent controls everything the child thinks, this isn't true it's the opposite in fact.

That's harsh but true, I can only show him the way - but he must choose. Will he be a gangster or solder it's up to him. But people get ideas, morals, ideology even from home first them from society.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Omegus wrote:If anything, children tend to rebel against their parents' viewpoints, often just for the sake of rebelling.

So if I am a Imperial fan, my son will be Chaos fan?
History will repeat itself...

I think the Blood Raven's gene-seed is a hybrid between the Blood Angels and Raven Guard gene-seed.

That's already been said just to be a joke theory, Cheesecat.

Kanluwen wrote:That's already been said just to be a joke theory, Cheesecat.

But I wasn't joking.

Then I'll have to lay down some logistics, I guess.

All of the Raven Guard Successors(of which there's like...two. The Raptors and another whose name eludes me right now) exhibit the traits of the Raven Guard: namely, the marble colored flesh and wholly black eyes as they age.

Most, if not all, of the Blood Angel Successors exhibit the Black Rage. That doesn't go away, it's a flaw in the seed.

Mixing the two gene-seeds wouldn't result in either 'problem' likely going away.

You'd end up with Robert Pattinson in Power Armor. And that, my friend, is a heresy that we can't allow.

If i have children and they fall to chaos, i will call their commisar myself and have him perform exterminatus! im still with loyalist thousand sons, because they rock

There are no loyalist Thousand Sons. The closest are Ahriman's cabal, and he hates the Imperium and Chaos with equal measure.

ooohhh...srry, mistook earlier posts...newb moment...

Kanluwen wrote:Then I'll have to lay down some logistics, I guess.

All of the Raven Guard Successors(of which there's like...two. The Raptors and another whose name eludes me right now) exhibit the traits of the Raven Guard: namely, the marble colored flesh and wholly black eyes as they age.

Most, if not all, of the Blood Angel Successors exhibit the Black Rage. That doesn't go away, it's a flaw in the seed.

Mixing the two gene-seeds wouldn't result in either 'problem' likely going away.

You'd end up with Robert Pattinson in Power Armor. And that, my friend, is a heresy that we can't allow.

Dang, it's just the name seemed too convenient. Which first founding chapters have the least faulty gene-seeds?

Ultramarines?

Omegus wrote:Ultramarines?

Well if you look at the mutation chances in Successor chapters in Deathwatch both Ultramarines and Dark Angels have 10% mutation chance.

Right, but half the Dark Angels turned renegade, so although their mutation rates may not be any higher, obviously there is a weakness of spirit in there somewhere.

There wasn't "half the Dark Angels" turning renegade at this point in time in canon.

It was a Chapter, at most, that did it--alongside of a lot of Imperial Army forces on Caliban and they began indoctrinating the upandcoming recruits into their viewpoint.

Kanluwen wrote:

You'd end up with Robert Pattinson in Power Armor. And that, my friend, is a heresy that we can't allow.

OH NOEZ!!! SPARKLY VAMPIRE MARINES?!?!

Kanluwen wrote:There wasn't "half the Dark Angels" turning renegade at this point in time in canon.

It was a Chapter, at most, that did it--alongside of a lot of Imperial Army forces on Caliban and they began indoctrinating the upandcoming recruits into their viewpoint.

Still, bespeaks of a weakness of character.

The Word Bearers didn't have much in the way of gene-seed instability, but their particular quirk was a penchant for fanaticism. The Dark Angels' equivalent quirk could well be being overly introspective, dwelling on real or imagined slights, faults and offenses. i.e. Emo.

Omegus wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:There wasn't "half the Dark Angels" turning renegade at this point in time in canon.

It was a Chapter, at most, that did it--alongside of a lot of Imperial Army forces on Caliban and they began indoctrinating the upandcoming recruits into their viewpoint.

Still, bespeaks of a weakness of character.

Uhhuh.

What's funny is that the person who orchestrated the whole "turning renegade" faction never had gene-seed implantations. Luther was seen by a great many of the Dark Angels as the "power behind the throne"--and the only reason he got anyone to follow him.

The Word Bearers didn't have much in the way of gene-seed instability, but their particular quirk was a penchant for fanaticism. The Dark Angels' equivalent quirk could well be being overly introspective, dwelling on real or imagined slights, faults and offenses. i.e. Emo.

Uhhuh.

I once in a semi rambling post tried to compare Lion'el Johnson to Sherlock Holmes / Greg House with his tactical ability and him wanting warmaster to demonstrate that he was 'the best.'

Whereas Luther was the Watson / Wilson part of it, the foil to him.

I ended up making most sense in my sum up.

Johnson was the head of the Dark Angels legion, while Luther was the heart. Which folds entirely into the 'tragedy' of the Dark Angels where things went horribly wrong when the 'head' was seperated from the 'heart.'

It also fitted with the grim darkness of 40k, where without the 'Reason' one guided my emotion is prey to Chaos.

Anyhows, when it comes down to it, the way I see it, is as far as Games Workshop 'canon' (if you can use such a word on the mess of 40k background) is concerned, the Blood Ravens are 'supposed' to be 1000 Sons descendants.

However, as I still haven't gotten round to playing Retribution properly, I think there is still a possibility that Relic's Blood Ravens have a different source.

People keep saying that there's only one proof, the 1ksons book prophecy, but wasn't there a moment in the DoW books where Ahriman called a blood raven brother? I havn't read those yet so I'm just going off what I've heard.

And to the dude that said Hawaii was made a state in 1960, that's super close for not double checking. August 21, 1959 is the date, so cudos to you for your momory. (Yes I checked. Really needed to know for some reason )

All Astartes generally refer to each other as "Brother".

Ahriman was doing it to mock the Blood Raven he was fighting.

Kanluwen wrote:All Astartes generally refer to each other as "Brother".

Ahriman was doing it to mock the Blood Raven he was fighting.

Kal, I seen in a several threads that you are strongly pointing that TS are not the legion from witch BR came...
Then what is your theory? Where did they came from?

My theory that BR are actually from Legion II or XI ( all data lost, go figure... ).

Brother Coa wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:All Astartes generally refer to each other as "Brother".

Ahriman was doing it to mock the Blood Raven he was fighting.

Kal, I seen in a several threads that you are strongly pointing that TS are not the legion from witch BR came...
Then what is your theory? Where did they came from?

My theory that BR are actually from Legion II or XI ( all data lost, go figure... ).

What's my theory?

That there's no single Legion that can be pointed towards as the progenitor of the Blood Ravens.

And it's "Kan" if you're trying to be informal. 'L' != 'N'.

However, it can't be the Lost Legions either. They were purged and lost before the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy really hit their stride. We don't know the circumstances, we just know that it happened and all records were expunged because of it.

Kanluwen wrote:
However, it can't be the Lost Legions either. They were purged and lost before the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy really hit their stride. We don't know the circumstances, we just know that it happened and all records were expunged because of it.

Ok, but there is also a strong possibility that some marines survive from either Legion II or XI and joined the Imperium after Heresy. Chapters where sounded, but it was still such a mess that some records where also lost from that time.

Just a wild speculation.

There is absolutely no "possibility" that some Marines survived from either of those Legions.

There's hinting at it within "The First Heretic", but the one who drops that hint is quickly corrected and told to stop his ceaseless prattling.

Some of them survived by possibly being absorbed into The Ultramarines .

iproxtaco wrote:Some of them survived by possibly being absorbed into The Ultramarines .

...Did you just not read the part I said?

The only place we have that stated is "First Heretic". The Word Bearer who says that is then pretty much told to shut up and stop spreading rumors.

So no. It's likely not the case.

I sure did.

Kanluwen wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Some of them survived by possibly being absorbed into The Ultramarines .

...Did you just not read the part I said?

The only place we have that stated is "First Heretic". The Word Bearer who says that is then pretty much told to shut up and stop spreading rumors.

So no. It's likely not the case.

Kan you can't argue with iproxtaco, he is Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentc. And that means that he knows everything .

EVERYTHING!

Brother Coa wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Some of them survived by possibly being absorbed into The Ultramarines .

...Did you just not read the part I said?

The only place we have that stated is "First Heretic". The Word Bearer who says that is then pretty much told to shut up and stop spreading rumors.

So no. It's likely not the case.

Kan you can't argue with iproxtaco, he is Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentc. And that means that he knows everything .

Actually, Rubric Marines are essentially just animated suits of armor. Without Sorcerers nearby, they're completely useless.

So...does that make me a Sorcerer?

Nope, I have my wing-man right beside me as I type.

The fact that he was silenced is no indication that what he was saying was false. The Emperor declared a moratorium on any mention of those two Primarchs and their Legion. The Word Bearer's comment may well have been true, there's no way of knowing either way.

I'm suprised that nobody has mentioned it yet, but Age of Darkness pretty much confirms that they are founded from the Thousand Sons. I forget the name of the perticular story (and my copy is several hundred misles away), but in the story about one of the Thousand Sons' splinter fleets returning to Prospero, at the end they leave very little doubt about who the Blood Raven's ancestors are.

It's been mentioned, if not on this thread then on one of the other few threads on the topic.

Omegus wrote:The fact that he was silenced is no indication that what he was saying was false. The Emperor declared a moratorium on any mention of those two Primarchs and their Legion. The Word Bearer's comment may well have been true, there's no way of knowing either way.

Okay, let's get something straight.

He wasn't silenced because it "may well have been true" or some kind of moratorium on any mention of those two Primarchs and their Legion.

He was silenced because he was citing a rumor that he'd heard from a member of the Lodge that was operating within the shadows of the Astartes. There was almost no backing to it, simply idle rumor being talked about from a Word Bearer after the Legion had been humiliated by the Ultramarines. The rumor in question was that "the reason the Ultramarines have so many members is that they've absorbed the Astartes from the two Lost Legions". The Word Bearers and Ultramarines, prior to the Word Bearers being humiliated by the Ultramarines, had a bit of a rivalry going because they were the two largest Legions and they had a similar record of subjugations and worlds they'd brought the Imperial Truth to.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shivan Reaper wrote:I'm suprised that nobody has mentioned it yet, but Age of Darkness pretty much confirms that they are founded from the Thousand Sons. I forget the name of the perticular story (and my copy is several hundred misles away), but in the story about one of the Thousand Sons' splinter fleets returning to Prospero, at the end they leave very little doubt about who the Blood Raven's ancestors are.

It's "Rebirth", and the end gives absolutely nothing about the Blood Raven's ancestry. It uses a literary device to make you think "Ohmygod! Foreshadowing!" and a phrase that is used by every single member of the Imperium of Man during the height of the Great Crusade and the Heresy.

It's not definitive. It's not even subjective. It's just there.

Meh, I don't see it. Any time anyone mentioned anything regarding those two primarchs, they were swiftly silenced. Even Dorn was cut short by the Sigilite.

Rumor or not, the Ultramarines' ranks did swell suddenly and rapidly. We don't know how much backing there was or wasn't to it. The fact that there was such a rumor going around in the first place is reason enough not to immediately dismiss it with "LALALALALANOWAYTHATHAPPENEDLALALALALAITSLIES!"

Sothas wrote:People keep saying that there's only one proof, the 1ksons book prophecy, but wasn't there a moment in the DoW books where Ahriman called a blood raven brother? I havn't read those yet so I'm just going off what I've heard.

And to the dude that said Hawaii was made a state in 1960, that's super close for not double checking. August 21, 1959 is the date, so cudos to you for your momory. (Yes I checked. Really needed to know for some reason )

In the Blood Ravens Omnibus " Dawn Of War Tempest" on pg.721 they talk about a book called Quezul'reah, which means the Un-Founding. "Im sure that you have heard of it" says Ahriman. "as I recall your Azariah Vidya once held a copy of this. If I remember correctly he even wrote a commentary on it. what was it called? "
"The Apocrypha of the Un-Founding" Rhamah replied. a couple of sentences down the page Ahriman says " I knew Vidya better than you might expect..."
That being said, it does come from Goto, so you can take that with a grain of salt. On the other hand, it was hinted that heir chapter master or founding father could have been a powerful sorcerer for the Legion of Magnus. Not all of the Thousand Sons Marines would have been present doing the attack by the Space Wolves. Noting especially the novel "Battle for the Abyss," when the Thousand Sons fought with the Ultra Marines and the Space Wolves, not all of the Sons went against the Emperor or followed the legion into Chaos.

Does that help any?

EDIT: Apparently I can't spell today...

Their Chapter Master and Founding Father was not hinted to "have been a powerful sorcerer for the Legion of Magnus".

Azariah Vidya took over after the Chapter Master and Master of Sanctity(head Chaplain) were both killed organizing a retreat during a campaign where the Blood Ravens were almost wiped out by Chaos cultists devoted to Tzeentch.

Funny how well their famed "foresight" helped them there.

Kanluwen wrote:Their Chapter Master and Founding Father was not hinted to "have been a powerful sorcerer for the Legion of Magnus".

Azariah Vidya took over after the Chapter Master and Master of Sanctity(head Chaplain) were both killed organizing a retreat during a campaign where the Blood Ravens were almost wiped out by Chaos cultists devoted to Tzeentch.

Funny how well their famed "foresight" helped them there.

Like I said, it's Goto, so you have to take it with a grain of salt. I personally consider Relic's take on things as canon (as the chapter is their baby, and ignore pretty much anything that Goto pulled from the pimply depths of his hindquarters (cozying up to Space Elves from Space? You're putting me on!!!), but GW let him get away with it for quite a while, didn't they?

Don't get me wrong, I love the Blood Ravens and TableTop gaming as much as the next man-child, and have my subscription to White Dwarf (including the one with the Index Astartes article on them), so I have all of the info you have brought up. It was simply asked if there was any other information out there, so I offered - specifically stating that it was Goto's work, and should be taken as such. It wasn't Vidya I was talking about in "Battle," so you can put away the now...

Never! Fire good!

...unless it's around your groin. They make a cream for that...

They are almost certainly descendants of thousand suns

Who are The Thousand Suns?

Why is there a new thread on this topic every few weeks?

Some people neglect the Search function.

I'ver posted in a nother thread somewhere a load of stuff supporting why and blancing the argument out with counter arguments to points just to get people discussing it a little more but here's my main view:
I'm pretty sure the Emperor sitting with the palace falling around him and rabid Daemons at the gates was saying "why didn't I listen to Magnus about Horus being corrupted by the powers of the Warp? Oh if only I mentioned to my creations that I hacked off some pretty powerful entities who were going to be out for revenge..." So the Emperor knew Magnus hadn't turned traitor, he and the Thousand sons were the star players in a tragedy plotted and played out by something far more powerful than the Emperor was. He also then knew what must be done to ensure humaity's survival and so forth, so just might have mentioned pre or post gutted by Horus (ref: Harlequin novels where the Emperor speaks to an inquisitor phsychicly at the golden throne) let psykers be used by the Legions/Chapters and to accept those who had remained loyal into the fold with the military might at a lowpoint.
With the casualty losses from the Heresy and the Time needed to make a space marine I believe the powers that be that took over running the show after the mortal wounding etc would have accepted any marines who had remained Loyal to the Imperium for the peace keeping and purging the remaining battlefields of traitors. What Is the only stumbling block in this argument for Blood Ravens being Thousand Sons genestock would be the mutation. Unless ofcourse there is another tragedy still to play itself out .
Perhaps some hybrid genestock could have been created but unless it came from the Ultramarines I would be inclined to dismiss it. With the casualties the Blood Angels suffered they were in danger of becoming a dead legion if not for engineering more from the body of their primark and therefore creating the black rage and emo vampire tendancies. (Or has GW changed that story as well? ><.
Simply from the Goto stuff, which surprised me when it turned out I hadn't just bought expensive toilet paper for a train trip, I'll lean towards them being Thousand Sons stock, but with a very unclear future which will hold tragedy and a past which was expunged simply to stop certain other chapters crying and throwing their bolters on the floor before storming off in a huff. At least the BR aren't totally emo over not knowing their own Primarach and having this background actually makes them interesting to me. Have been tempted to strip my DA down and redo them BR many times simply bacause the Ezekiel model would still fit in as a higher ranking librarian and look just as awesome as it does now

Werd...

More evidence in favor of the Thousand Sons:

It's not 'more evidence' if it's been posted a few bajillion times.

And as I've said, repeatedly:
1) "Knowledge is Power" is a ridiculously, absurdly common phrase during the Heresy and the Great Crusade. It's like saying "Hello" or "You're Welcome".
2) The "vision" that was given out is almost exactly the same as what a Raven Guard associated Imperial Army Captain received before the Istvaan Dropsite Massacre.
3) You saw a "raven head" on his shoulder guard. Not a "raven".

So yes. It is entirely, 100% out of the question that he started the Blood Ravens.

No, it's not 100% out of the question, but I know it's pointless to argue with you as you see only what you want to see and ignore everything else. More people seem to feel they derive from the Thousand Sons than not, so you're in the minority (and vocal as usual).

LumenPraebeo wrote:Why is there a new thread on this topic every few weeks?

Blame Threadromancy, I started this thread probably 6 months ago

undivided wrote:From Graham McNeill's A Thousand Sons

Spoiler:

...The Ravens, I see them too! The lost sons and a Raven of Blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!"

I believe the thread, and question, ended here. I immediately made the connection when I read that part as well.

Same, lets have the thread locked, the question has been answered for me several times.

Thread closing at OP's request.