So in the past the Emperor defeated and imprisoned the C'tan Void Dragon in Mars. His reasoning for this was to fuel humans technology to launch his great crusade.

Now the Machine Cult of Mars worships the Void Dragon (unknowingly) as the omnissiah, or the machine god. It seems kind of wierd to me that one of the main parts of the IoM is worshiping a necron god. How is this exactly going to play out? What happens if the Void Dragon wakes up? I am sure the Emperor had plans to deal with him after the crusade, but that's out the window.

Well, the Adeptus mechanicus isn't actually part of the IoM. However, they share a mutually beneficial relationship with the Imperium. If you want to read a good bit of fluff about what could happen if this got out, read Titanicus by Dan Abnett.

If the Void Dragon wakes up, the Mechanicus and Terra are both screwed beyond belief.

It is widely accepted that the Emperor is the Omnissiah and only a handful of Tech Priests know about the Dragon and workship it. If/when the Dragon is freed from its imprisonment it is doubtful that the great masses of the Cult Mechanicus would worship the Dragon although naturally they would likely be some kind of schism but with the Dragon loose in the Sol System the possible fallout due to matters of technotheology will be the least of everyone's problems.

Gogsnik wrote:It is widely accepted that the Emperor is the Omnissiah and only a handful of Tech Priests know about the Dragon and workship it. If/when the Dragon is freed from its imprisonment it is doubtful that the great masses of the Cult Mechanicus would worship the Dragon although naturally they would likely be some kind of schism but with the Dragon loose in the Sol System the possible fallout due to matters of technotheology will be the least of everyone's problems.

This. As for how it could all possibly play out (although I'm reasonably certain nothing will be developed about this bit of fluff)...perhaps the Necrons will attempt to wake their imprisoned God and or it will wake itself and the Crons will rise from their tombs across the galaxy making things generally unpleasant within the Imperium.

I'd just like to note that the dragon is "awake", he's just imprisoned.

For all we know the Omnissiah could just be an old copy of PCFormat magazine or a still operational page of Wikiedia, or may the Emperor forgive me 4chan /TG/!

Ribon Fox wrote:For all we know the Omnissiah could just be an old copy of PCFormat magazine or a still operational page of Wikiedia, or may the Emperor forgive me 4chan /TG/!

...There is no forgivness in the grim darkness of the future, only war and stalemate!

Ribon Fox wrote:For all we know the Omnissiah could just be 4chan /TG/!

Heresy! *BLAM*

The Dragon is awake but trapped in the Noctis Labyrinth

It's guarded by a group called the Children of the Dragon.

obsidianaura wrote:The Dragon is awake but trapped in the Noctis Labyrinth

It's guarded by a group called the Children of the Dragon.

What exactly is this Noctis Labyrinth? Who are the Children of the Dragon?
How did Big E imprison the dragon? And When?

If the Dragon has been in jail for the past 10 000 years, he must be reeaaaally pissed off. And hungry.

The only way to free him is destroying the labyrinth. A few Necron fleets tried to but were blasted before even having a chance to land on mars.

Laodamia wrote:What exactly is this Noctis Labyrinth?
Who are the Children of the Dragon?
How did Big E imprison the dragon?
And When?

The Noctis Labyrinthus is an area of Mars.



The Children of the Dragon are the Guardians of the Dragon as established in the novel Mechanicum. They remain with the Dragon until the next Guardian appears and the Dragon grants them immortality; it also tries to get them to free it but so far none have done so.

The Emperor imprisoned the Dragon by being awesome. in Mechanicum the Emperor battles the Dragon at some point during the reign of the Emperor Diocletian so sometime around the third or fourth century BC.

it is possable that the Void Dragon, being a God of Technology, isn't actually a C'tan at all, but is rather the Eldar smith god Vaul.


after Khaine defeated Vaul and binds him to his anvil, Vaul seeks refuge and comes to a little planet called earth.

in his weakened state, Vaul is incapable of resisting the Emperor, who binds Vaul on Mars for eternity to give mankind technology. in exchange, Vaul is sort of released from his bindings. he trades one form of slavery for another in exchange for asylum. Vaul also survives the birth of Slannesh.

there are many parallels between these stories and this could be a potential truth.


perhaps the Necron invasion to "free" the void dragon was actually an attempt to destroy one of the last Eldar gods.

Necanor wrote:The only way to free him is destroying the labyrinth. A few Necron fleets tried to but were blasted before even having a chance to land on mars.

I thought they actually did land on Mars but were destroyed immediatley afterwards.

One thing I never got about the emprah's silly plan was if he hated religion so much why intentionally setup the worship of a very hostile deity?

Gogsnik wrote:The Emperor imprisoned the Dragon by being awesome. in Mechanicum the Emperor battles the Dragon at some point during the reign of the Emperor Diocletian so sometime around the third or fourth century BC.

Woah - the Emperor was capable of space travel sans space-suits/spacecraft?

He was wearing his PF-Flyers.

The Talismans of Vaul (blackstone fortresses for BFG players) were designed to combat the C'tan

I don't think that the dragon is Vaul, interesting idea though.

Where did you get the info on Vaul coming to Earth, (Earth not Terra?) don't recall seeing this.


Also the Dragon technically doesn't grant imortality it's more of a bi-product of become a guardian, the dragon doesn't seem to choose to give it to them.

The Guardians also have the abilty to repair any machinery with a touch, this also seems to be a bi-product

asimo77 wrote:

Necanor wrote:The only way to free him is destroying the labyrinth. A few Necron fleets tried to but were blasted before even having a chance to land on mars.

I thought they actually did land on Mars but were destroyed immediatley afterwards.

One thing I never got about the emprah's silly plan was if he hated religion so much why intentionally setup the worship of a very hostile deity?

I don't think he started the worship of the Void Dragon. He imprisoned it and I guess after a while people noticed it and began to worship it.

I dont believe they workship the void dragon just the thoughts of planing constructing etc the so long forgotten tactics of machines and the way they work as one. For example it is supposed to be really sophisticated the way it works and stuff and the reason that imperium is always "losing technology" make them feel like some god is making the machines moving.
Tho it is just an opinion i havent read "Mechanicus" and "Titanicus" but anyway believing such gods might be a seed of heresy on imperium ages.

obsidianaura wrote:The Talismans of Vaul (blackstone fortresses for BFG players) were designed to combat the C'tan

I don't think that the dragon is Vaul, interesting idea though.

Where did you get the info on Vaul coming to Earth, (Earth not Terra?) don't recall seeing this.

I just drew the anology between Vaul and the Dragon.


the Dragon was supposedly hiding from something when he came to Earth.


the misnamed Vaul was then defeated by the Emperor. some sort of deal was struck and the Emperor placed Vaul in the Labrinth on Mars.

Grey Templar wrote:the misnamed Vaul was then defeated by the Emperor. some sort of deal was struck and the Emperor placed Vaul in the Labrinth on Mars.

Unfortunately though the Dragon as C'tan is too closely implied in the background but the idea does sound appealing. Afterall the battle between Khaine and Vaul is called 'The War in Heaven' and it is strongly implied that the Vaul Moon is Mars.

The trouble with the idea of the Emperor imprisoning the Dragon (C'tan) on Mars, which is why it was silly to hint at it, is that the Dragon was potentially wounded during the War in Heaven requiring it have been floating around doing not very much for the best part of sixty million years, whilst remaining wounded so that the Emperor could defeat it and then imprison it. Before Mechanicum it was easy enough to think that the Dragon had simply entombed itself like the other C'tan, it just happened to have done so on Mars.

Well lately it seems GW takes any chance it can to make Necrons look bad.

Your most powerful diety? Got knocked around by the emprah.

Think you guys are so tuff? Well how about we use you for target practice?

Oh the World Enguine is pretty sacry isn't it? Well how about we just blow it up....Ok that one's a reach The World Engine was pretty damn awesome

Then of course there's the actual codex itself.

asimo77 wrote:

Necanor wrote:The only way to free him is destroying the labyrinth. A few Necron fleets tried to but were blasted before even having a chance to land on mars.

I thought they actually did land on Mars but were destroyed immediatley afterwards.

The necrons only attempted to land on Mars once.

A small fleet of necron ships suddenly appeared in the vicinity of the red planet and started manoeuvers to land on its surface. They were obliterated by Mars' incredible orbital defenses, but resisted an amazing amount of salvoes before being destroyed. IIRC, the necrons were quite close from reaching Mars' atmosphere when they were destroyed.
When Battlefleet Solar sent a picket fleet to investigate, they didn't found the remains of the necron ships. They had simply vanished.

I don't have my codex with me but I'm postive that there was a story about 3 (I think it was 3) scout ships landing on the surface before being pew pew'd to death.

Either way it's really just details, point is necrons got super close to Mars where the Void Dragon is.

It was 5 Necron Shroud Class ships, little agile fighters, they appeared at the edge of the Solar System and managed to penetrate every defende before getting to Mars, then 2 got shot down by the defenses, the other three landed but were promptly destroyed and that area was declared Forbidden ground.

A thing to remember here. If Necrons are destroyed they teleport to the nearest Tomb World to repair.

Who's to say (and it's heavily hinted in the codex -i've not read the novels) that Mars isn't the nearest tomb world?

Theory:

The Necrons knew this and landed on mars knowing that they would be olbliterated (shrouds are tough, but not THAT tough) in order to be teleported into the Labyrinth to wake the Dragon.

Food for thought.., It could have as much similarity to the real plot (if there is one)as a raspberry yoghurt, but that's how i interpret the intention of the shrouds that penetrated Mars's defenses.

Ascalam wrote:A thing to remember here. If Necrons are destroyed they teleport to the nearest Tomb World to repair.

Who's to say (and it's heavily hinted in the codex -i've not read the novels) that Mars isn't the nearest tomb world?

Theory:

The Necrons knew this and landed on mars knowing that they would be olbliterated (shrouds are tough, but not THAT tough) in order to be teleported into the Labyrinth to wake the Dragon.

Food for thought.., It could have as much similarity to the real plot (if there is one)as a raspberry yoghurt, but that's how i interpret the intention of the shrouds that penetrated Mars's defenses.

I never thought of that... Intriguing. I doubt Games Workshop thought of it, but it does make sense. Hmm...

It seems that along with the Chaos Space Marines the Necrons are one of the more used races when it comes to stories, theories, relation to the Imperium and so on. I quite enjoy it being a Necron player, myself.

Gogsnik wrote:
The Emperor imprisoned the Dragon by being awesome. in Mechanicum the Emperor battles the Dragon at some point during the reign of the Emperor Diocletian so sometime around the third or fourth century BC.

Bugger I thought Big E was St George killing that dragon.

Ah well Mechanicum was awesome.

To clarify, here are some things that we know:

- The Emperor confonted and defeated a powerful creature that he called the Dragon of Mars. He imprisoned it on Mars.

- Mars and Terra established separate but co-existing empires during the Dark Age of Technology. These collapsed during the Age of Strife.

- The relative timeline of the rise of the first Martian empire and the imprisonment of the Dragon of Mars is unclear.

- Adeptus Mechanicus, along with their worship of the Omnissiah, developed during the Age of Strife.

- After conquering Terra, the Emperor made an alliance with the Mechanicum whereby the powers were unified but remained separately sovereign. Many among the Tech-Priests accepted the as the Omnissiah. Many others did not. Still others had no faith in the Omnissiah at all.

And now the speculation

- The Dragon of Mars is a C'tan known as the Void Dragon.

- The imprisoned Void Dragon inspired the Adeptus Mechanicus.

- The Void Dragon is the Omnissiah.

- The Emperor planned the whole thing. (This is not so much speculation on the part of fans as it is speculation on the part of Graham McNeill's characters.)

Going off of Manchu's clarifying post, I think it's pretty much garuntee'd that the imprisoned Dragon on Mars is the same as the Void Dragon if only because a good third of the Necron Codex deals heavily with the Mechanicum and the whole Dragon on Mars thing. If they weren't the same I cannot fathom why GW would waste part of the Necron codex on junk that doesn't deal with them.

Knowing GW they will just rewrite it all and say it was just one big joke.

Ribon Fox wrote:Knowing GW they will just rewrite it all and say it was just one big joke.

I think that would go over like this


First:
Then:

Well they have done it before and no dout will do it again

Depends on who we get as the codex writer.

I don't want my lords giving Marines Man-hugs and buddying up.

(My Flayed ones giving them rending hugs is another story, but that's wishlisting...)

Some SC Lords with unique and broken gear/abilities would be nice, as i'm getting pretty fracking tired of being owned by EVERYONE elses OP special characters...

Ascalam wrote:Depends on who we get as the codex writer.

I don't want my lords giving Marines Man-hugs and buddying up.

(My Flayed ones giving them rending hugs is another story, but that's wishlisting...)

Some SC Lords with unique and broken gear/abilities would be nice, as i'm getting pretty fracking tired of being owned by EVERYONE elses OP special characters...

Our SC's are pretty cool though! We can field gods, others can only field avatars at best. Mind you our gods can be taken down by 50~ pts. of snipers, but that's of minor concern.

Manchu wrote:
- The Emperor planned the whole thing. (This is not so much speculation on the part of fans as it is speculation on the part of Graham McNeill's characters.)

You've left out an important part there. Their speculation is that the Emperor did it on purpose to thwart any attempt at the Dragon gaining followers. The omnissiah/Machine God developed by the Cult of Mars is inspired by the Dragon, but definately not the Dragon. If he gets out, he's their enemy, not their god.

Assuming the Emperor knows his fundament from a peanut butter sandwich (hint- one is gold, and i suspect is retroengineered from a Stasis Tomb, the other is not..)

Remember that the Emperor couldn't tell that Horus was evil either, even when he was wandering around in spiky terminator armour with chaos symbols all over it, and then still couldn't immediately go through with killing him, at least in the older fluff..

Why everyone assumes the Emperor is all-knowing is beyond me. He was a highly psychic warlord with a marked lack of perceptiveness, and these days he's a giant psychic flashlight.

From a less imperiocentric perspective maybe the Deceiver is really the one pulling the strings, or the whole Adeptus Mechanicus is already worshipping the Dragon (remember that they are no longer in constant contact with the Imperium in the fluff (main rulebook i think? ) and have always had a certain sod-you attitude to the rest of the imperium...

Ascalam wrote:Assuming the Emperor knows his fundament from a peanut butter sandwich (hint- one is gold, and i suspect is retroengineered from a Stasis Tomb, the other is not..)

Remember that the Emperor couldn't tell that Horus was evil either, even when he was wandering around in spiky terminator armour with chaos symbols all over it, and then still couldn't immediately go through with killing him, at least in the older fluff..

Why everyone assumes the Emperor is all-knowing is beyond me. He was a highly psychic warlord with a marked lack of perceptiveness, and these days he's a giant psychic flashlight.

From a less imperiocentric perspective maybe the Deceiver is really the one pulling the strings, or the whole Adeptus Mechanicus is already worshipping the Dragon (remember that they are no longer in constant contact with the Imperium in the fluff (main rulebook i think? ) and have always had a certain sod-you attitude to the rest of the imperium...

We know the Deceiver has infiltrated the Inquisition for quite some time and is masquerading as a bunch of high ups for the moment, but I don't think he'd be trying to get the Dragon worshiped. Remember, the C'tan hate each other so if anything I'd imagine him trying to get the Dragon destroyed as fast as possible.

The C'Tan DON'T hate each other. Towards the end of their multi-billion year reign they had friendly rivalries that turned nasty because of scarcity of food, the Deceivers machinations and the Laughing God's influence. With the amount of food around now, all the C'Tan save perhaps for the Outsider would be happy to work together for their common goal, because if they stay as distinct forces they each have a far smaller chance of success than if they group together.

Is there a connection between the Laughing God and the Deciever?

It's slighly off topic but, what would happen if a Dragon Guardian touched the golden throne.

As they are given the ability to repair technology with a touch, and the Golden throne is failing because know one knows how to fix it... what would happen?

Oh and another thing that should maybe go on Manchu's clarifying post under things we know;

"The earliest mentions of the Void Dragon relate it to technology in a way that would indicate it had an amazing affinity and ability to control it."

I just thought that was a significant piece of evidance towards the dragon of mars being the void dragon

obsidianaura wrote:It's slighly off topic but, what would happen if a Dragon Guardian touched the golden throne.

As they are given the ability to repair technology with a touch, and the Golden throne is failing because know one knows how to fix it... what would happen?

Well, that's an interesting post.

Well, I suppose nothing else could happen than the reparation of the golden throne, big E roaming the stars again, etc. But that sounds a like a far too easy way to repair the golden throne. It sounds too beautiful to be true.
I don't think GW ever thought of this possibility. Otherwise, they would have created some rubbish saying that the guardians cannot approach the throne, etc.

Don't know if a fixed Golden Throne would heal the Big E but it would prevent him from getting worse.

It'd be cool if it did heal him though.

If I was writing a story for warhammer 50K, I'd say that the 13th Black Crusade got to Terra, was turned back at at a big cost and in the fighting Throne became futher damaged and failure was imminent.

A Dragon Guardian was rushed to Terra where they repaired the Golden throne, reviving the Big E but being slain by the effort required.

Then the Void Dragon could break loosewithout its guardian, much conflict insues.

obsidianaura wrote:Then the Void Dragon could break loosewithout its guardian, much conflict insues.

This and the earlier comment about the Necrons deliberately allowing themselves to be destroyed could make a feasible reason to have the Dragon freed from its imprisonment.

I doubt that repairing the Golden Throne would revive the Emperor but presumably it would mean that the damage done by Magnus would also be repaired meaning that the Emperor's powers would no longer need to be directed at keeping the webway gate shut, as the Golden Thronewould be able to do that by itself which could well free up the Emperor's powers for other things.

Another daily food for thought-

The Dragon controls machinery remotely.

The Golden throne was built or salvaged by the Adpetus Mechanicus, back in the very old days when they had only just turned from worshipping a darker entity (read Dragon here)on Mars and agreed to ally with the Emperor.

What if they lied? What is the Adeptus Mechanicus has ALWAYS served the Dragon. It's not like they tend to explain themselves to anyone else.

Also it says that the Mechanicus can't repair the Throne. What if they can, but say they can't

And a final one: What if the throne they installed the dying Emperor into (provided by the Machine Cult on Mars in those early days) is being controlled by the Dragon, and always has been, with the Emperor being nothing but a navigational beacon? The Imperium is frankly more or less what the C'tan want. Trillions of worlds in service to a machine with a soul grafted to it..

I think that the Deciever even mentions this in the except in the Codex

Might not be true, but i'd like to think that it is

You're missing the part where the Emperor created the prison that he put the Dragon in.

One would assume he knows what limitations that prison has.

Also, the Emperor was declared the Omnissiah as a concession. He and they knew full well there was no such thing, but it allowed the Cult of Mars to continue with their beliefs without having to be obliterated by the great crusade.

Maybe the machine god is a massive construct of gears and such that does nothing except make machine sounds and loom cool?

Scarey Nerd wrote:The C'Tan DON'T hate each other. Towards the end of their multi-billion year reign they had friendly rivalries that turned nasty because of scarcity of food, the Deceivers machinations and the Laughing God's influence. With the amount of food around now, all the C'Tan save perhaps for the Outsider would be happy to work together for their common goal, because if they stay as distinct forces they each have a far smaller chance of success than if they group together.

On 2 separate occasions the Deceiver has attempted to kill the Nightbringer, not to eat him or for fun, but to eradicate him entirely. The C'tan loath eachother as they are about the only thing, sans the Blackstone fortresses, that can actually kill another C'tan off. They didn't turn on each-other when food got scare as that didn't happen until after they had already gone to war against one another, they fought after the Deceiver tricked them into thinking that other C'tan may taste even better then humans, which proved true. The Enslaver plague is what forced them into hibernation as the food grew scarce and by that time we were down to the four current ones. The Nightbringer was almost dead when the Marines found him on Pavonis as the Deceiver had betrayed its location to its foes before the Nightbringer had fallen into stasis, which is when its scythe was banished to the Immaterium. However, I re-read some parts and while they still hate each-other, the Deceiver has concluded that it Does need the other C'tan to help it rule the galaxy again, so no. I suppose it wouldn't be trying to kill off the Dragon, but trying to awaken him.

Azure wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:The C'Tan DON'T hate each other. Towards the end of their multi-billion year reign they had friendly rivalries that turned nasty because of scarcity of food, the Deceivers machinations and the Laughing God's influence. With the amount of food around now, all the C'Tan save perhaps for the Outsider would be happy to work together for their common goal, because if they stay as distinct forces they each have a far smaller chance of success than if they group together.

On 2 separate occasions the Deceiver has attempted to kill the Nightbringer, not to eat him or for fun, but to eradicate him entirely. The C'tan loath eachother as they are about the only thing, sans the Blackstone fortresses, that can actually kill another C'tan off. They didn't turn on each-other when food got scare as that didn't happen until after they had already gone to war against one another, they fought after the Deceiver tricked them into thinking that other C'tan may taste even better then humans, which proved true. The Enslaver plague is what forced them into hibernation as the food grew scarce and by that time we were down to the four current ones. The Nightbringer was almost dead when the Marines found him on Pavonis as the Deceiver had betrayed its location to its foes before the Nightbringer had fallen into stasis, which is when its scythe was banished to the Immaterium. However, I re-read some parts and while they still hate each-other, the Deceiver has concluded that it Does need the other C'tan to help it rule the galaxy again, so no. I suppose it wouldn't be trying to kill off the Dragon, but trying to awaken him.

It was my interpretation that the Deceiver attempted to kill the Nightbringer simply because it feared him as the only C'Tan that would try and turn on him. You may well be right, of course, I just never remembered reading anything that said the C'Tan hated each other.

According to the Codex, the C'Tan turned on each other for sport and spite, not actually wanting to consume each other but fighting for the sake of fighting. When the harvests grew thin, they began to devour one another (page 25). However, you are right that it was the Deceiver that tried to spark this off.

'You're missing the part where the Emperor created the prison that he put the Dragon in.

One would assume he knows what limitations that prison has.

Also, the Emperor was declared the Omnissiah as a concession. He and they knew full well there was no such thing, but it allowed the Cult of Mars to continue with their beliefs without having to be obliterated by the great crusade.'


Assuming that he was all that smart, and didn't just order the Cult Mechanicus to do it for him (unless you're suggesting he handcrafted every brick and tunnel personally..) ?

From the fluff i've read about him (i'm not up on all the Black Library books) he wasn't a mechanical genius, but a psychic buttkicker. Newer fluff may well contradict this. I'm working off the fluff I have to hand...

Also, what would stop the Mechanicus (from my postulation) from saying that the Emperor's Holy Ghost is the Machine God (and then carry on worshipping the Dragon, and performing the same rituals etc anyway)?

If the Emperor was declared the Omnissiah as a sop to prevent him from wiping them out, then why are they an independent group immune to Imperial law, rather than just another branch of the Administratum?

I would think that when the big E was leaving earth, after having bludged the other competitors down (with the old upper torso power armour that was the only PA of the time (old fluff article.. have to see if i can find it) and comandeering some rusty, malfunctioning ships he would see the wisdom of allying, not dominating, with a tech-obsessed group with a higher tech level than his, who knew (approximately) how the tech worked, and were rather well armed to boot. Later on he could probably have wiped Mars off the map without too much fuss, but when he first left Earth to begin his Great Crusade i'd not bet on it.

Without the Mechanicus, there wouldn't have been a Great Crusade, and the Imperium would have collapsed long ago


'Maybe the machine god is a massive construct of gears and such that does nothing except make machine sounds and loom cool? '

That would be awesome Something like Deep Thought, but still thinking over its question and not ready to answer yet

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Azure wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:The C'Tan DON'T hate each other. Towards the end of their multi-billion year reign they had friendly rivalries that turned nasty because of scarcity of food, the Deceivers machinations and the Laughing God's influence. With the amount of food around now, all the C'Tan save perhaps for the Outsider would be happy to work together for their common goal, because if they stay as distinct forces they each have a far smaller chance of success than if they group together.

On 2 separate occasions the Deceiver has attempted to kill the Nightbringer, not to eat him or for fun, but to eradicate him entirely. The C'tan loath eachother as they are about the only thing, sans the Blackstone fortresses, that can actually kill another C'tan off. They didn't turn on each-other when food got scare as that didn't happen until after they had already gone to war against one another, they fought after the Deceiver tricked them into thinking that other C'tan may taste even better then humans, which proved true. The Enslaver plague is what forced them into hibernation as the food grew scarce and by that time we were down to the four current ones. The Nightbringer was almost dead when the Marines found him on Pavonis as the Deceiver had betrayed its location to its foes before the Nightbringer had fallen into stasis, which is when its scythe was banished to the Immaterium. However, I re-read some parts and while they still hate each-other, the Deceiver has concluded that it Does need the other C'tan to help it rule the galaxy again, so no. I suppose it wouldn't be trying to kill off the Dragon, but trying to awaken him.

It was my interpretation that the Deceiver attempted to kill the Nightbringer simply because it feared him as the only C'Tan that would try and turn on him. You may well be right, of course, I just never remembered reading anything that said the C'Tan hated each other.

According to the Codex, the C'Tan turned on each other for sport and spite, not actually wanting to consume each other but fighting for the sake of fighting. When the harvests grew thin, they began to devour one another (page 25). However, you are right that it was the Deceiver that tried to spark this off.

A god awful amount of the story is in fact Not covered in the codex but instead in a bunch of short stories that GW put out several years ago. If you look around here on dakka there is a beautiful informational thread that has cataloged every mention of Necrons/C'tan ever, and in there it gives more information on to their relations with each-other. Reading the Codex over again your viewpoint could easily be ascertained however, my apologies for assuming you had heard of this other stuff DX

Azure wrote:A god awful amount of the story is in fact Not covered in the codex but instead in a bunch of short stories that GW put out several years ago. If you look around here on dakka there is a beautiful informational thread that has cataloged every mention of Necrons/C'tan ever, and in there it gives more information on to their relations with each-other. Reading the Codex over again your viewpoint could easily be ascertained however, my apologies for assuming you had heard of this other stuff DX

Quite often when I'm routing around looking for Necron fluff, I get linked to the same GW page "Dawn of the C'Tan", but this page was removed years ago, so I can't find it

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Azure wrote:A god awful amount of the story is in fact Not covered in the codex but instead in a bunch of short stories that GW put out several years ago. If you look around here on dakka there is a beautiful informational thread that has cataloged every mention of Necrons/C'tan ever, and in there it gives more information on to their relations with each-other. Reading the Codex over again your viewpoint could easily be ascertained however, my apologies for assuming you had heard of this other stuff DX

Quite often when I'm routing around looking for Necron fluff, I get linked to the same GW page "Dawn of the C'Tan", but this page was removed years ago, so I can't find it

Was it truly? That's awful! There was a brief story about a troupe of Harlequins that had 'captured' The Outsider and were putting on a play for him. A solitaire had put up the image himself as the Deceiver in order to lead The Outsider through a bunch of hoops and into the Dyson Sphere. They ended up losing something like 7 solitaires as The Outsider would eventually get to and slay the current one but a new one would dawn the mask and lure it further and further into its capture. I don't do the story justice but it was similar to this.

Have you noticed that whenever GW wants to explain something powerful being put away it's ALWAYS the Laughing God, who ALWAYS wins...

Fun idea- What if the Laughing God and the Deciever are one and the same... I'm sure the eldar fluff contradicts this, but the guy IS the Deceiver, after all


A lot of the codex is hints and whispers, not 'solid' fluff. I'd definitely be interested to see where the next codex takes the fluff Preferably something less involving the concept 'and then the marines killed all the necrons and saved the system...' or ' and then the SM SC (pick any) bodyslammed the C'tan into a black hole/pulled its head off/kicked it in the nads..."

I want my army to look good in my codex. Other people's armies have their own codexes to be cool in.

*edited for sick kicks *

Ascalam wrote:A lot of the codex is hints and whispers, not 'solid' fluff. I'd definitely be interested to see where the next codex takes the fluff

Into the path of Marine Bolter fire. I guarantee this.

Gogsnik wrote:If/when the Dragon is freed from its imprisonment it is doubtful that the great masses of the Cult Mechanicus would worship the Dragon although naturally they would likely be some kind of schism

No doubt. And we all know how well schisms on Mars go.

Ascalam wrote:Have you noticed that whenever GW wants to explain something powerful being put away it's ALWAYS the Laughing God, who ALWAYS wins...

Fun idea- What if the Laughing God and the Deciever are one and the same... I'm sure the eldar fluff contradicts this, but the guy IS the Deceiver, after all ;

*edited for sick kicks *

The Laughing God is a warp deity though, and the Immaterium is the anathema to the C'tan, so I"m not sure how they could be one and the same. Though I have often thought of this myself.

Ascalam wrote:'
From the fluff i've read about him (i'm not up on all the Black Library books) he wasn't a mechanical genius, but a psychic buttkicker. Newer fluff may well contradict this. I'm working off the fluff I have to hand...

No fluff implies the emperor is more of a "psychic buttkicker" than a "mechanical genius".

Space Marines: gene manipulation and advanced armaments.
Golden Throne: machine.
Astronomicon: machine.

The Emperor's scientific genius is his most displayed and tangible ability. He actually built stuff, and he did it frequently.

On the contrary, people say he was a powerful psyker, but his only significant psychic endeavor (while he was in the form of the Emperor) was killing Horus.

Needed to conquer earth: built and armed an army.
Needed to conquer galaxy: built and armed Primarchs, that fails, built and armed Space Marines.
Stabilize warp travel: build astronomicon and later webway (that gets ruined)

He never solved any of his non-Horus problems with "psyker smash!".

DarknessEternal wrote:
He never solved any of his non-Horus problems with "psyker smash!".

While that may indeed be true, the fact that the Emperor was a powerful-beyond-belief psyker is well documented. If you want more on this read "A Thousand Sons". Magnus frequently speaks of his "Father's" psychic prowess, and near the latter part of the book Magnus comes to the realization that the Emperor was much more powerful than even he (which for Magnus to admit is extremely telling).

However, if you're only debating Ascalam's use of the word "buttkicker" then I don't really have a basis on which to contradict you. Also according to "A Thousand Sons" all space marine chapters looked at Magnus's legion's use of ethereal powers in battle with distaste so I would assume the Emperor didn't smite his foes with them either otherwise it would be more openly accepted.

*edited for incorrect quote and then spelling. *sigh*

the Emperor certaintly did alot of Psychic butt kicking during the Crusade.


before the Primarchs were found the Emperor was leading the Space marines into battle.

Imperator Titans were made by the Ad Mech in an attempt to emulate the Emperor's destructive power.

the Emperor brought the entire Word Bearer Legion, and Primarch, to their knees with a single word, against their will.

sez the Imperium

Only the winners get to write/rewrite history

Sounds more like SM fanboyism on the part of the author than anything else, but hey, most Imperial fluff is like that..


'Space Marines: gene manipulation and advanced armaments.
Golden Throne: machine.
Astronomicon: machine.

The Emperor's scientific genius is his most displayed and tangible ability. He actually built stuff, and he did it frequently.

On the contrary, people say he was a powerful psyker, but his only significant psychic endeavor (while he was in the form of the Emperor) was killing Horus.

Needed to conquer earth: built and armed an army.
Needed to conquer galaxy: built and armed Primarchs, that fails, built and armed Space Marines.
Stabilize warp travel: build astronomicon and later webway (that gets ruined) '

The space marines are indeed gene-manipulated, no argument there. Want to bet it was the AD-Mech who did it at E's behest

The advanced SM armament predate BiG E, as they are STC templates. He just copied them and had the Ad-mech build them (from their own STC archive, most likely)..

The Golden Throne was built as a life support device by the Ad-Mech AFTER he was crippled and ganked by Horus in the fluff I have. I'd not be shocked if they retconned in that he built it beforehand, but i've not read that anywhere.

The Astronomican is a psychic radio, basically. I doubt that HE personally built it. Again the ancient fluff i'm working off (mostly 1st/2nd ed) seems to suggest it was built around him, post death, but i suppose he could have built it. I'm not seeing any fluff i have around that suggests that either the astronomican or the Throne were his handiwork, but if it exists I wouldn;t mind reading it, if you could tell me where it is

He definitely didn't build the Webway. The Old Ones did I think he might have hacked into it, fluffwise, but it's been there since the War in Heaven..


Feel free to prove me wrong on any of this, with a page reference and source, and i'll happily go read up. I'm a little behind on the latest spin on some of the fluff..

Ascalam wrote:
The Golden Throne was built as a life support device by the Ad-Mech AFTER he was crippled and ganked by Horus in the fluff I have. I'd not be shocked if they retconned in that he built it beforehand, but i've not read that anywhere.

HH series: Emperor builds Golden Throne to create a web way.

Ascalam wrote:
The Astronomican is a psychic radio, basically.

HH series again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Cypher- wrote:
While that may indeed be true, the fact that the Emperor was a powerful-beyond-belief psyker is well documented. If you want more on this read "A Thousand Sons". Magnus frequently speaks of his "Father's" psychic prowess,

That was exactly my point.

People SAY or THINK the Emperor is a potent psyker. He never does any great psychic works that are witnessed though.

The machines, devices, and people he built with science are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
the Emperor brought the entire Word Bearer Legion, and Primarch, to their knees with a single word, against their will.

I wonder where his magical submission power was when he needed it most: when they were knocking down his house with intent to kill him. He also never did this to anyone that wasn't a marine or primarch.

Space Marines are Primarchs were genetically coded to be loyal to him. The circumstances surrounding this event imply it was at the very limit of his abilities to do this to people coded for loyalty while he himself was under no actual duress.

It was simply beyond his means to do something like in any other circumstance. Hence, getting choked nearly to death by an Ork.

Ascalam wrote:
The Golden Throne was built as a life support device by the Ad-Mech AFTER he was crippled and ganked by Horus in the fluff I have. I'd not be shocked if they retconned in that he built it beforehand, but i've not read that anywhere.

The Astronomican is a psychic radio, basically. I doubt that HE personally built it. Again the ancient fluff i'm working off (mostly 1st/2nd ed) seems to suggest it was built around him, post death, but i suppose he could have built it. I'm not seeing any fluff i have around that suggests that either the astronomican or the Throne were his handiwork, but if it exists I wouldn;t mind reading it, if you could tell me where it is

At the beginning of "Mechanicum" (the 9th book in the Horus Heresy series) the Emperor comes to Mars. Before him kneels a Knight in, for lack of a better word, a mech (the machines themselves are called "Knights", but think of them as one-man and significantly smaller Titans). This particular Knight has a stubborn knee joint that, in the book, is described as being a chink on the machine spirit itself, and therefore nothing the techs could fix and completely remove. The way the opening is written, when the Emperor lays a hand on the Knight's outer carapace and instantly "heals" the machine, it is told in such a way as to convey that he was able to do it through complete and total understanding of how that worked. So much so that he was able to take fixing and making machines and engines past tools and into something different.

All that to say this: as a direct quote from the book, when first welcoming the Emperor to Mars the Knight (Verticorda was his name) looked into his eyes and "saw the wisdom of all the ages and burden of all knowledge contained within them,". The Emperor was indeed a genius. After this meeting some of the Machine Cult began immediately worshiping him as the Omnisiah so impressed were they with his understanding of machines.

And to answer your statements which I have quoted above, according to the newer fiction established in "A Thousand Sons" (the 12th book in the same series) it was the Emperor who drew up the plans and schematics for the Golden Throne, which incidentally, was a machine first designed for Magnus to seat and guide the IoM through the webway (which at this time was just being broken into by the Emperor in the heart of his fortress on Terra). It comes across to infer that the Throne was altered after the Emperor's wounds against Horus to be what it is now, and this was possible because when Magnus used the webway to confer with his "Father" he destroyed the entrance that the Emperor was working on and thus destroyed the initial purpose of the Throne.

As for the Astronomican it is to my understanding also a device that was to be used by Magnus in conference with the Throne, but was then also altered to become a beacon fueled by the Emperor's psychic powers to be a guiding light to be used by Man as it plied the warp.

On a side note, I highly encourage you to read the Horus Heresy novels. To get a concrete view on what the universe was like at that point in time is very entertaining.

Ah- looks like he's been retconned in by the novels as being an uber-tech-priest then. I stand corrected. Older fluff was less in this vein. He was a powerful mortal, not a god that could level buiildings with a punch or cow armies with a thought, let alone repair machines with a touch..

Remember the old story of the Emperor re-meeting Russ? He used a Powerfist to clunk him, not his bare hands He wasn't as powerful back then..


I'll have to checjk the books out Thanks for the references

Who's to say the Emperor couldn't be really good with machines and with his mind.


He probably learned alot during those 30k+ years he was in disguise, secretly manipulating human history.

VikingScott wrote:

Gogsnik wrote:
The Emperor imprisoned the Dragon by being awesome. in Mechanicum the Emperor battles the Dragon at some point during the reign of the Emperor Diocletian so sometime around the third or fourth century BC.

Bugger I thought Big E was St George killing that dragon.

He sort of was.

The idea/implication being that all "our" tales of brave knights riding off and defeating dragons are in fact half remembered myths/memories of this event.

reds8n wrote:
The idea/implication being that all "our" tales of brave knights riding off and defeating dragons are in fact half remembered myths/memories of this event.

Interesting. I'd never thought of it all in that light before, but now that you've said it clear as day, it makes sense.

*edited to fix quote.

Ascalam wrote:Ah- looks like he's been retconned in by the novels as being an uber-tech-priest then. I stand corrected. Older fluff was less in this vein

That isn't really true. The Emperor's scientific genius has always been part of his characterization. He built the Primarchs, Space Marines, and their wargear with science.

The advantage his army had during the Unification Wars was their advanced technology that he was responsible for.

And let's not forget the the driving idiom of the Great Crusade "There's nothing in the galaxy that can't be explained with science." Of course the Emperor knew that was a lie, but it's the truth he wanted his people to actually believe. So given the choice between magic and science, he chose science.

Maybe the new necron codex will have rules for 'cultists' or AdMech adepts or something?

I've been wanting to do a C'tan cultist IG army for a while. When i've collected my Necrons out I just might...

The Void Dragon may want to be free, but it is scared of the Nightbringer. it wants to stay in it's own environment where it can be strong. After all, if the Emperor beat the void dragon so easily, he could kill the Nightbringer. Also the Void Dragon absorbs the souls of the Mechanicus through their implants.

I would like to bring to you guys the attention that the necrons follow the Nightbringer and the Deciever and hate all other C'tan because and the nightbringer would just love to eat the void dragon up. Suck on them apples!

The nightbringer wants to ea everyone up, but it's not stupid, and the Deceiver is actually explicitly mentioned as realizing that it will need its brother c'tan around.

The necrons serving the Dragon and Outsider are likely still in stasis, or operating as unaffiliated tombworlds waiting for them to wake.

I'd not be shocked if the necrons were programmed to obey any C'tan without question, regardless of their loyalties pre-cybering. only the lords and possibly the Pariahs have any self-will by now anyway.

Whats the source for the necrons (not the C'tan, but the necron armies) hating the two remaining C'tan? I've not run across any suggestion of it fluffwise, but as has been proven further up the thread my fluff-knowledge is a little out of date.

Good question could have been, if it's a machine god of sorts and plainly hated the Emperor. How did we get the new technology out of it's lair? How did it produce new tech? By using raw materials or by using some sort of webway to smuggle in tech from another time and space?

cross_revert wrote:I'd just like to note that the dragon is "awake", he's just imprisoned.

+1

Ribon Fox wrote:For all we know the Omnissiah could just be an old copy of PCFormat magazine or a still operational page of Wikiedia, or may the Emperor forgive me 4chan /TG/!

Nice.

obsidianaura wrote:The Dragon is awake but trapped in the Noctis Labyrinth

It's guarded by a group called the Children of the Dragon.

Laodamia wrote:

obsidianaura wrote:The Dragon is awake but trapped in the Noctis Labyrinth

It's guarded by a group called the Children of the Dragon.

What exactly is this Noctis Labyrinth? Who are the Children of the Dragon?
How did Big E imprison the dragon? And When?

If the Dragon has been in jail for the past 10 000 years, he must be reeaaaally pissed off. And hungry.

Read HH Novel Mechanicus...

Also, the Void Dragon is just a name/reference... when you read the book you will understand more...

I find the Necron/ C'tan / Old Ones /Eldar all have a ridiculous amount of cross over. The big E wanted access to the Webway, used by the Eldar built by another race (read Old Ones?). The Eldar had gods who fought, the C'tan are Gods, are we all talking about the same things couldn't it be that they are the same thing....Vaul = Void Dragon = Dragon Imprisoned on Mars = Omnissah = Lord of Machines.

Khaine = Nightbringer?
Harlequins = Laughing God
Exodites = Outsider?

They say that Slaanesh ate them all the gods? Really? Or is that why they hate the Empyrean because they are in Slaanesh's realm?

If the C'tan hate the Empyrean and Warp then it would make sense that they had developed/used/interested in the Webway? I think they are all one and the same and each race has interpreted it differently. For all i know the Emperor might be trying to ascend as the 5th Chaos God, the Chaos caused by hope or Salvation.

I agree that there is a confusing amount of cross-over in the 40k history. GW and those authors who contribute to the history of 40k deliberately foster some confusion in order to keep "options open". I think the present explanation that all of this is due to thousands of years of rumor, inuendo, foggy memories of lost knowledge and outright lies is a pretty ingenious method of keeping things "fresh"... if seriously frustrating to ardent fans.

I personally like the thread of 40k history which sees the Emperor as the living embodiment of human psychic potential. Being that he was created by a band of very early psykers who volunteered (sacrificed) themselves in order to bring about the emperors birth. As these early psykers were convinced that their combined psychic essence would make him as powerful as possible because they were aware that the universe was a very dangerous place and humanity needed a protector. Whether they perceived the chaos gods or were given the idea by "other" players in the galactic arena I can't remember. This creation story is vaguely similar to the way the Eldar create the Avatar. The human version is created much less often (once so far), however, but to far greater effect. When seen from a certain angle, this is also how Slaanesh was created. Although the Emperor was created by individuals who volunteered for the greater good of humanity... and that is an important point I think.

This also explains why the primarchs personalities and abilities are all so different from each other... some dramatically so. They are all the living reflections of the individuals that made up the Emperors psychic potential of which there were apparently hundreds if not thousands. Humans are exceedingly varied in abilities and temperament and this is expressed in the extreme by the primarchs. Though they are still fairly rigid examples of an aspect of human experience since only 20 were created. I find it somewhat interesting that the Marines who are the primarchs genetic decendants exhibit penchants for certain types of combat or are, in fact, paragons of it and have certain world-views which is also (very vaguely so) reminiscent of Eldar aspect warriors. These traits are far more diffuse in humanity as a whole, but it still exists. If you consider the Primarchs and the marines as the diffuse expression of the Emperors psychic potential it begins to make a lot of fluffy sense.

One wonders if the history is ever moved beyond it's present stasis and the Emperor is "reborn" as has been intimated several times in the past, what will he be like then? As he is absorbing billions of individuals now. Hope in a grimdark future?! eh... probably not.

As far as the "Void Dragon" is concerned, from what I've read the Emperor defeated the Dragon and trapped it on Mars in order to eventually foster the culture that developed there after the Dark Age of Technology. Perhaps he knew what would happen to the far flung technologically advanced human race once our psychic potential reared its head? The void dragon was the Emperors "hole card" to be used to reignite technology after what he knew would be a catastrophic metamorphosis for the human race.

Since this happened so far in the past one wonders what effect the void dragon may have had on humanity in this "controlled" state during mankinds ascendance in the Galaxy. To what level was anyone aware that this being existed in the depths of Mars? The void dragon apparently tries feverently to release itself from captivity by using eons of time, patience and attempts to control lesser beings through psychic control expressed as technology where he succeeds. Perhaps the void dragon is the real "mother of invention".

Since I don't think the Emperor can truly "die" as we know it, who's to say what may happen?

Then again, the great inter-galactic vacuum cleaners have arrived. Maybe, the Emperor knew this would happen too and he figured he'd gather up all the "souls" of mankind and move them to the Warp in his safe keeping. Once the "scourge" has passed he'll start all over again...

Not to thought provoking perhaps, but hey, it's as plausible as anything else out there.

mwnciboo wrote:I find the Necron/ C'tan / Old Ones /Eldar all have a ridiculous amount of cross over. The big E wanted access to the Webway, used by the Eldar built by another race (read Old Ones?). The Eldar had gods who fought, the C'tan are Gods, are we all talking about the same things couldn't it be that they are the same thing....Vaul = Void Dragon = Dragon Imprisoned on Mars = Omnissah = Lord of Machines.

Khaine = Nightbringer?
Harlequins = Laughing God
Exodites = Outsider?

They say that Slaanesh ate them all the gods? Really? Or is that why they hate the Empyrean because they are in Slaanesh's realm?

If the C'tan hate the Empyrean and Warp then it would make sense that they had developed/used/interested in the Webway? I think they are all one and the same and each race has interpreted it differently. For all i know the Emperor might be trying to ascend as the 5th Chaos God, the Chaos caused by hope or Salvation.

They do have crossover, yes, but they're specifically said to have fought each other. There's a very long piece of fluff buried in the archives somewhere on the 'net that describes Khaine and the Nightbringer engaging in battle. Harlequins worship the Laughing God, they are not him. Exodites are definitely not the Outsider, as the Outsider is a C'Tan imprisoned in a Dyson Sphere by Harlequins, again this is in very old fluff.

Necrons hate the Empyrean because it is anathema to them. Necrons are soulless and cannot exist in the Warp whatsoever, it is the one thing they do not have mastery over.

The Old Ones and the C'Tan and Necrontyr fought a terrible war that involved the destruction of entire star systems, races being enslaved just to be terrorised for the sake of it and the bloodiest battles in the known history of the galaxy. If they are one and the same, then just about the entire Necron Codex is completely pointless.

Scarey Nerd wrote: ........If they are one and the same, then just about the entire Necron Codex is completely pointless.

This is funny, because it implies that GW cannot re-write Canon to suit whatever they are doing at the time, including writing out an entire race out of 40k (Squats). I used to remember everything when I was younger and pour over the Fluff for interesting morsoles and facts to try to make sense of it all...I think i have finally given up because there is no overarching thing that binds it all together it is so leaky that it wouldn't float, it really isn't watertight (which is probably a good thing!).

But I am fed up of constant references, counter references, un-referencable material hidden away somewhere, or a WD so old on the net thats say's "Ghazakull Thraka had a love child with a harlequin that a penchant for Anime and this is how the Tau Race was formed". I truly have given up trying to make sense of it, I'm just going to collect what I like and try to destroy other armies. Ignorance is Bliss..

I approve!

I actually like the Vaul idea at the start of this thread. It could be explained by a mistranslation of Necrontyr/Eldar history/prophecy.

Although the current C'tan on Mars is equally as good.

Vaul-Moon = forgeworld as I read it (which brings forth the dragon)..

Of course this is a human translation of an eldar prophecy, and said eldar aren't prone to crosschecking the translation, so it could mean anything

Combine it with the little story of a giant sarcophagus inside the noctis labyrinth, as seen by Abaddon (i think) from the codex and it would lean in that direction.

As long as we don't get any 'empire wins, hurrr!' fluff in our new codex, whenever it shows up, i'll be fairly content, but i'm not holding out a lot of hope there...

On a related note, friend of mine mentioned how he thinks they're going to put the Void Dragon into the new Necron Codex (I hope they do ). If the Children of the Dragon have the power to repair any machine by touch, and the Golden Throne has failed beyond the capability to repair of the Custodes or the Mechanicus, the current Guardian could leave Mars and come to Terra to repair the Throne. Emperor gets a pick-me-up, which caters for GW's main market, spesh mahreens, and Void Dragon can get loose. However, Void Dragon flees Solar system because... plot.

Just an idea...

That would require GW to advance the plot

They seem markedly unwilling to do so...

That said, It would be cool.

Ascalam wrote:That would require GW to advance the plot

They seem markedly unwilling to do so...

That said, It would be cool.

I agree that that would be unlikely, but if they're going to put in alliances between Necrons and Blood angels (), they owe Necron players big.

Azure wrote:
We know the Deceiver has infiltrated the Inquisition for quite some time and is masquerading as a bunch of high ups for the moment, but I don't think he'd be trying to get the Dragon worshiped. Remember, the C'tan hate each other so if anything I'd imagine him trying to get the Dragon destroyed as fast as possible.

Where is this from?

I've never heard of this?

(It's probably in the 'crons codex I'm guessing....)

VikingScott wrote:

Azure wrote:
We know the Deceiver has infiltrated the Inquisition for quite some time and is masquerading as a bunch of high ups for the moment, but I don't think he'd be trying to get the Dragon worshiped. Remember, the C'tan hate each other so if anything I'd imagine him trying to get the Dragon destroyed as fast as possible.

Where is this from?

I've never heard of this?

(It's probably in the 'crons codex I'm guessing....)

In the 'Cron codex, yes. He kills a Planetary Governor and assumes his form, corrupting the system until they send an assassin, whom he kills effortlessly.

the new Cron codex will likely have Essence's of the C'tan.


because the C'tan couldn't be everywhere at the same time, they would give Necron Lords portions of their power. they would assume the form and strength of a C'tan for a period of time.


so the Void Dragon could be in the codex, his essence.


of course, if the Void Dragon doesn't make it in, then my Vaul=Dragon theory has some weight. it would require GW to advance the story line for the Void Dragon to give his essence to a Necron Lord as it's been almost 40,000 years since the Void Dragon had contact with his forces(and as such most are likely sleeping)

I would personally love to have the Dark Mechanicus as troop/elite options in my army

I could so see human cultists as a no wbb troop option and usual human stats (but maybe cybernetics like the ork cybork body or the imperial cybernetics wargear that allows you to trecover on a 6) , which might also let some inperial tech in (melta!!) and allow repair rolls on our liths (that would make the Imp players scream like peeled weasels)..

I doubt it would happen, but it would be hilarious if the necron codex was the only one you could build an Ad-Mech army from

Grey Templar wrote:the new Cron codex will likely have Essence's of the C'tan.


because the C'tan couldn't be everywhere at the same time, they would give Necron Lords portions of their power. they would assume the form and strength of a C'tan for a period of time.


so the Void Dragon could be in the codex, his essence.


of course, if the Void Dragon doesn't make it in, then my Vaul=Dragon theory has some weight. it would require GW to advance the story line for the Void Dragon to give his essence to a Necron Lord as it's been almost 40,000 years since the Void Dragon had contact with his forces(and as such most are likely sleeping)

Saying they can't be everywhere at the same time and so shouldn't be able to be in an army doesn't seem to stop the 5 million Mephiston clones wandering around at the moment.

Having C'tan clones is less of a problem than having supposed gods being taken down by poisoned weaponry, JotWW, and other such nonsense. Get those fools outta the game, they probably can't even mesh with Apocalypse well.

hence the "essence" replacement.


In DoW, Necrons don't get the Nightbringer.

the Necron Lord can turn into the Essence of the Nightbringer.

I like the idea of an essence or avatar

thats the idea.

Yup...I was agreeing with you if it wasn't clear. I guess my original post was part rant/part justification for having an essence system replace the current one.

I understand the idea, but I don't think it's inkeeping with the Necron theme. They're meant to be identical automatons, the rank and file footsoldiers of the C'Tan, and being able to assume a C'Tan's form seems like it would be... sacrilige, might be the best way to put it. It would feel, to me at least, like a cheap rip-off of the Eldar Avatars.

For the same reason, I don't like the idea of named Lords, because it again detracts from the concept of identicality (Probably not a word).

Well in the rulebook it mentions Necron Lords going insane from the statis, some believing themselves to be gods (and changing their forms to do so), and others going on hatred driven wars against the living. The lords seem to have some personality left.

As for named lords Necrons seem to follow the Tyranid naming scheme, all the names are taken from what the IoM and Eldar call them. For example some lords we know are the Silent King and the Bringer of Storms because that's what the IoM and others call them, who knows what their real names are. It's the same idea for why Deathleaper is called Deathleaper, those who have encountered him created that moniker for him.

asimo77 wrote:Well in the rulebook it mentions Necron Lords going insane from the statis, some believing themselves to be gods (and changing their forms to do so), and others going on hatred driven wars against the living. The lords seem to have some personality left.

As for named lords Necrons seem to follow the Tyranid naming scheme, all the names are taken from what the IoM and Eldar call them. For example some lords we know are the Silent King and the Bringer of Storms because that's what the IoM and others call them, who knows what their real names are. It's the same idea for why Deathleaper is called Deathleaper, those who have encountered him created that moniker for him.

That's true. I named my Lord the way I did because of his first encounter with Eldar, so I can see how they would work.

To your first point: Where does it mention that Lords go insane in stasis? I do remember reading it somewhere, but I can't remember where and I'd like to re-read the passage.

I was mostly paraphrasing based on my memory of the Rulebook, here's snippet from the passage "Others have been driven utterly insane by the weight of aeons" (pg 179)

There's other parts to the quote that reference the supposed apotheoses, hate filled wars, and other shenangians the lords pull off.

As a side note following that nomenclature my lord is known as "The Necromancer". Seems very fitting for a necron.

Necron Lords certaintly retain the greater parts of their personality.


the Immortals also have some shred of their minds left.


it isn't unheard of for Necron Lords to battle each other over the other's army. the winner takes all.

Did nercons have their own personality’s in the fluff when they the first chapter approved list and metals came out in the late ninety’s? Kind of dipped out of the hobby then.

I read somewhere that the Void Dragon had a Blackstone Fortress deployed against him by the Eldar near the end of the War in Heaven, and that the attack failed to subdue him. My line of thought is that he was weakened by it, and with the outbreak of the Enslavers he had to flee, and then sometime later ran into the Emperor, where in his starved state mashed and locked down on Mars. I also draw a reference from the Necron Codex in the Deceiver's profile, that he wants the C'tan to unite to defeat the new races. His work in the Imperium could very well ahve something to do with working covertly to free the Void Dragon and perhaps find news of the Outsider.

The essence idea has been floating around for years with the rumours of the new Necron codex, and it would be a nice touch to have a special character representing each C'tan that they are serving. They could also work it into like a Chaos-style codex, four 'areas of blessings' from each C'tan. For example a Warrior squad blessed by the Void Dragon would lose their Gauss Flayers and gain the Lightning fuelled fists that his specific followers had.

Grey Templar wrote:Necron Lords certaintly retain the greater parts of their personality.


the Immortals also have some shred of their minds left.


it isn't unheard of for Necron Lords to battle each other over the other's army. the winner takes all.

Where does it mention them fighting each-other? If you look at the Apocalypse books, it's not just 1 Lord that rules a bunch of warriors, it's a triple redundancy system involving Bronze, silver, and gold Lords who are activated based on the threat level to the Tombworld and how fast it's awakening, with a theorized platinum Lord at the very top of the chain, though never before seen.

Azure wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Necron Lords certaintly retain the greater parts of their personality.


the Immortals also have some shred of their minds left.


it isn't unheard of for Necron Lords to battle each other over the other's army. the winner takes all.

Where does it mention them fighting each-other? If you look at the Apocalypse books, it's not just 1 Lord that rules a bunch of warriors, it's a triple redundancy system involving Bronze, silver, and gold Lords who are activated based on the threat level to the Tombworld and how fast it's awakening, with a theorized platinum Lord at the very top of the chain, though never before seen.

Hellforged Spoiler: