Here's how it is.

My Boyz have beaten every race they have played so far except the SW. Every single time they get railed, not matter what the list.

Longfangs tear me open, Logan comes down in a pod of death supported by more Longfangs. Grey Hunters race towards me in Rhinos or RB's, and if I get really lucky maybe some termies will pile out of a landraider I cant kill and eat me alive.

Does anyone have some tips as to how my Boyz can fair better against what is in my opinion one of the toughest armies around at the moment?

What list are you using against his SW? I play SW and Orks so i know both the armies and have Codices on hand

Yeah, Space Wolves are 40k's easy button.

Some ideas:

1) Neutralize those long fangs. You can run snikrot, or deathkoptas to engage long fang squads early.

2) Play the reserve game. If Logan is in a pod, he has to come in on turn 1. If you're in reserve, you come in on turn 2 (earliest). Hopefully Snikrot and/or the koptas show up on turn 2 to stop the shooty, and you can bring your other reserves on not near Logan, who will have to hike the table to get to you.

3) Mech up in battlewagons. Deathrolla his landraiders, and hop your guys out to get the charge. Ghazzie can beat head too. Even Logan goes down to enough choppas.


Finally - if you're not playing in tournaments and your opponent is running 3 squads of long-fangs, perhaps suggest to him that he step away from the crack-pipe and play a proper list against you. You'll have more fun in friendly games if your opponent isn't going out of his way to bring as many of the most broken units in the most broken codex to the table.

also mixing boys on foot, wagons, and kanz helps seriously target saturate the field so the rockets don't know what to shoot at. and why not let logan roll out in a drop pod? He comes down maybe smokes one wagon and then the nobs with ghaz pop out and wreck him (sure he'll kill a few but not enough).

Just a fun FYI, the "Logan Bomb" got neutered recently. Since he gives his free rule to people at the beginning of a turn him and his long fangs can't shoot their weapons on the turn they pod in since he can't issue his orders prior to being deployed!

As far as boyz vs wolves, Snikrot, lootas (their amount of firepower output is disgusting), and tons of boys. With any marine army, the wolves will be a smaller list making it much easier for you to murder.

Take Killkannons.

Snikrot works well against backfield shooting units, period. Space wolves have lots of these that are good buys that are plenty scared by him and his boyz. Deffkoptas of all varieties can also neutralize lots of threats- even a big shoota skwadron of deffkoptaz can tarpit a shooty dread until something else gets close, or even to stop it from firing, hit and run and go for another unit.

Target saturation works painfully well for orks with so many light vehicles. 2 squads of kans and a bunch of trukks can be a headache to choose from, plus juicy side armour brattlewagon shots and of course fraggin' da boyz. Convenient you got a box set for your birthday you git (for those playing at home, no I do not run 3xLF squads. I go two every now and then, but ones enough )

osumicrobio wrote:Just a fun FYI, the "Logan Bomb" got neutered recently. Since he gives his free rule to people at the beginning of a turn him and his long fangs can't shoot their weapons on the turn they pod in since he can't issue his orders prior to being deployed!

As far as boyz vs wolves, Snikrot, lootas (their amount of firepower output is disgusting), and tons of boys. With any marine army, the wolves will be a smaller list making it much easier for you to murder.

Oooohhh cool. I did a Logan list (not a tournie list, just the Logan pod idea) for shenanigans a couple of games itwasn't that great (nor as fun as other potential lists), and I must say some of those rolls were ridiculous. I mean I took 21 choppa wounds on Arjac and saved them all in one round of close combat

And its true about marine lists being small- losing squads hurts bad. I'm trying to get Dirtypete to play marines and me orks so he can see what the other side of the field is like. I find that really helps to get the understanding of the strengths and weakness' of an army

osumicrobio wrote:Just a fun FYI, the "Logan Bomb" got neutered recently. Since he gives his free rule to people at the beginning of a turn him and his long fangs can't shoot their weapons on the turn they pod in since he can't issue his orders prior to being deployed!

As far as boyz vs wolves, Snikrot, lootas (their amount of firepower output is disgusting), and tons of boys. With any marine army, the wolves will be a smaller list making it much easier for you to murder.

What's your source? I just read the SW FAQ to respond to your post, and it specifically says the Logan can benefit from The High King on the turn he arrives from reserves.

So it is still a valid threat. Be prepared for it!

Yeah, the whining about how the codex is "broken" (it's not) and making up rules (Logan can'use High King ability turn he pops in- except he can- see the FAQ), don't really help.

The general suggestions are good- Snik eats backfield shooters, lootas ruin rhinos/Rbs, deathrollas crump LRs, and Boys w/PKclaw should munch a GH squad.

One thing that may help is knowing how many points you play. At 1500, for example, Logan and a LR eat up alot of points. Once he has that and 3 LF squads, he has about 500 left. That makes for a pretty sparse scoring force if he is adding WG termies (which do count as scoring w/Logan), and razorbacks. AT 2000, it becomes more viable, but you should be able to put alot on the table. And lots of boys don't care about missiles, especially if you get some cover. Kanz also help as they are cheap, draw missilies, and are tough for non PFist squads to deal with.

It takes just a glance at both books and typical space wolf armies to see that battlewagons are quite difficult for space wolves. There is probably a thread right now, somewhere on the internet, where someone is asking "What do I do against deffrollas with my space wolves?"

Take battlewagons with deffrollas, and roll right over all of his razorbacks, if his thunderwolf cavalry gets in the way rolla them too. You can comfortably fit 4 battlewagons in a 1500 point army and still include some loota fire support and a substantial model count of boys.

Space wolves don't typically take maneuverable anti-tank shooting units, theirs are static or move 6" max, and can't punch armor 14, their answer to battlewagons will probably be thunderwolves. If they don't also have thunderwolves along with their long fangs, then you'll really have no problem. Even if they do, you still have answers...

Use loota fire and shoota boy fire in oder to saturate the thunderwolf units so that they won't be able to gaff deffrolla wounds onto any accompanying fensrisian wolves. Once most or all the fenrisians are dead, line up as many tank shocks as possible, 4 tank shocks means 4d6 deffrolla hits, and 4 leadership tests, two things that hit them right in the breadbasket. 12 wounds caused on average from 4d6 hits, IDs 4 lords/TWC.

Space Wolves are death for orks. SW counter-attack and superior initiative hurts orks bad. Ultimately, SWs make mediocre players good and they make good players neigh unbeatable. Redbeard has the best suggestions.

Shep wrote:
Space wolves don't typically take maneuverable anti-tank shooting units, theirs are static or move 6" max, and can't punch armor 14, their answer to battlewagons will probably be thunderwolves. If they don't also have thunderwolves along with their long fangs, then you'll really have no problem. Even if they do, you still have answers...

This isn't completely true. Many, many Space Wolf lists have tons of Razorbacks, all sporting weapons capable of ripping through AV14 (Lascannons and Assault Cannons). The former, at least, has enough range where 6" movement isn't going to be a factor, really. Also, Battlewagons are open topped, no? So, you need a 6 to pen and a 6 on the glancing chart, but it's possible to kill one with a Krak Missile. Then make it large amounts of krak missiles, and we can see how it would be a problem.

Shep wrote:It takes just a glance at both books and typical space wolf armies to see that battlewagons are quite difficult for space wolves. There is probably a thread right now, somewhere on the internet, where someone is asking "What do I do against deffrollas with my space wolves?"

Take battlewagons with deffrollas, and roll right over all of his razorbacks, if his thunderwolf cavalry gets in the way rolla them too. You can comfortably fit 4 battlewagons in a 1500 point army and still include some loota fire support and a substantial model count of boys.

Space wolves don't typically take maneuverable anti-tank shooting units, theirs are static or move 6" max, and can't punch armor 14, their answer to battlewagons will probably be thunderwolves. If they don't also have thunderwolves along with their long fangs, then you'll really have no problem. Even if they do, you still have answers...

Use loota fire and shoota boy fire in oder to saturate the thunderwolf units so that they won't be able to gaff deffrolla wounds onto any accompanying fensrisian wolves. Once most or all the fenrisians are dead, line up as many tank shocks as possible, 4 tank shocks means 4d6 deffrolla hits, and 4 leadership tests, two things that hit them right in the breadbasket. 12 wounds caused on average from 4d6 hits, IDs 4 lords/TWC.

Not every Space wolf player runs 3x long fangs +TWC. I dont even have TWC in fact, most of the time the BW' gets neutered by a typhoon, sometimes a rifleman

LC's and tl-assault cannons do not 'rip through' av14 with obscured status, as most ork bw's have.

Sheps advice is sound. Just hope the ork player goes first so he can whittle down the str10 lc's with lootas.

If the space wolf player goes first, orks can have problems.

Ah, but if you look at the math behind ACs and single shot LCs (most SW players use las plas RBs, not TL las), crippling AV14 with obscured, you can't blubber about how overpowered the SWolves are and just give up ;-)

If orks go first, massed loota fire can cause a hell of alot of damage. Most SWs really on light armor, not LRs. And, as pointed out, LRs crumble to deffrollas. A squad of even 5 lootas should land 3 hits on average on a rhino. S7 v.A V11 means a 4 to glance. That is fine as it likely keeps them from shooting. 10 lootas will probably pop a razor a turn and then can turn to infantry and force saves. Counterattack and high I do help for SWolves, but massed boys still win, point for point. If the SW player is taking massed RBs, then it is prob 5 man GH squads which fold fast to big boy squads. If it is full 10 man squads, then there is less other shooting and their rhino can be shot down, or they can be shot up then multi charged in a Drop Pod. And don't forget that GHs test on LD 8 for counterattack unless they give up their 2nd special, so its not guaranteed.

But even assuming a full 10 man squad, you are looking at 30 attacks at I4 if counter attack works, otherwise 20. That is 5 wounds after saves or 3 or so if it fails. A 20 man ork squad gets 42 (48 if CA failed) attacks back + nob which should see about 5 GHs dead. (If you shot with pistols first, it kills 1 more GH on average.) Next round the GH squad should disappear. So far from impossible to handle. RF bolters is probably the bigger concern from GHs as 20 shots sees 6-7 boys off the table. If they are taking massed RBs, then it is probably 4 bolters plus a flamer. And, of course, a huge squad with mark of the wulfen and banner is extremely dangerous, but also draws alot more points.

Just know your unit matchups and don't panic!

Battlewagon spam

ghazzy

snikrot and kommandos

lootas

jmurph wrote:, you can't blubber about how overpowered the SWolves are

Funny, from a guy with a SWolves icon.... SWolves are the most overpowered codex I've ever seen. You get 5 missiles that can split fire for less than vanilla marines get four missiles. That's not overpowered? You get mounts that boost your actual toughness (as opposed to effective toughness, like a bike) making your characters immune to the most readily-available instant-deaths. You have the best anti-psychic tools in the game. You have the best psychic power in the game. Along with the ability to take 4 HQs, letting you double up on it if needed. You've got, at your disposal, the hardest-hitting deathstar in the game, the cheapest, most effective fire-support units, and a very solid core of all-arounder troops that can pack melta weapons, and can generally be relied to get 3-attacks, even when charged (compare to 1 for vanilla marines).

Look, there's a reason that people have stopped playing 'their' armies, and started playing them as counts-as Space Wolves. If SWolves weren't overpowered, chaos players wouldn't be using their codex. Vanilla marine players wouldn't be using the codex. I feel sorry for old-time SWolf players because they're getting lumped in with all the codex hoppers, but that's how it is. It's a broken codex that decimates the metagame and provides an easy-win solution for not-so-good players to fall back on.

you can't... just give up ;-)

But I agree here. You can't just give up. But you have to realize that you're going to need to pull out all the tricks to win against space wolves.

Counterattack and high I do help for SWolves, but massed boys still win, point for point. If the SW player is taking massed RBs, then it is prob 5 man GH squads which fold fast to big boy squads. If it is full 10 man squads, then there is less other shooting and their rhino can be shot down, or they can be shot up then multi charged in a Drop Pod. And don't forget that GHs test on LD 8 for counterattack unless they give up their 2nd special, so its not guaranteed.

I've not seen a SW player who doesn't put a wolfguard in their units. That second special is compensated for with the use of a combi-weapon.

But even assuming a full 10 man squad, you are looking at 30 attacks at I4 if counter attack works, otherwise 20. That is 5 wounds after saves or 3 or so if it fails.

Your math is off. If you make the counter-attack roll, it's more like 6.25 dead boyz. But so is your strategy. 20 boyz fold like paper to a thunderwolf charge, likely with no casualties caused in return. If the Space Wolf player baits the orks into charging 5 or even 10 grey hunters, then the orks are going to lose the unit they charged with in the counterassault. Even if charged by a second unit of grey hunters, the orks have lost their furious charge, and will lose combat by enough wounds that no-retreat will hurt, or they'll get cut down.

All the while, the long fangs are still posing their issue. 15 lootas, rolling 3 for # of shots, is mathematically unlikely to remove a long-fang squad in a round of shooting, and that's spending nearly 100 points more than the squad you're trying to remove, and getting lucky on that first-shot roll. Spread over the three units, if you try to match the longfangs with lootas, you end up down 250 points (30 boyz) and still depend on not rolling 1's for # of shots. So lootas aren't a good answer for long fangs. They're good at popping transports, speeders, and dreads. Snikrot can handle a unit, but won't be there until turn 2 (earliest), and if the wolf player spreads out the long fang deployment he'll be good for only one. If you can be sure of going first, deathkopta units might be the best bet. If you go second, they'll just eat the first round of missile fire.

AV14 wagons are your best gamble, but with 15 shots at it, you have to expect your opponent to get some result past your forcefield, and being open-topped, that can be bad. But it's as good as you're likely to get.

Lets not derail and poison this thread with a completely different and fiery debate...

Boiling all of this advice down to its most raw components, ScubaSteve has a nice concise little blurb.

scubasteve04 wrote:Battlewagon spam

ghazzy

snikrot and kommandos

lootas

The great news about all of these things, is that they are good all the time. They aren't "space wolf" hate per se.

Side AV12 doesn't fare well against the proliferation of SW heavy weapons. It's generally pretty easy for *something* in the Wolf list to get a side AV shot or two; either Longfangs in dispersed deployments or Typhoon speeders floating at the flanks.

BW spam is still probably one of your best bets against the SW missile line, but don't consider it a hard counter.

And of course the GW battlewagon has a very small front profile so damn near everything should be able to get side armor shots on a battlewagon.

Commander Endova wrote:

osumicrobio wrote:Just a fun FYI, the "Logan Bomb" got neutered recently. Since he gives his free rule to people at the beginning of a turn him and his long fangs can't shoot their weapons on the turn they pod in since he can't issue his orders prior to being deployed!

As far as boyz vs wolves, Snikrot, lootas (their amount of firepower output is disgusting), and tons of boys. With any marine army, the wolves will be a smaller list making it much easier for you to murder.

What's your source? I just read the SW FAQ to respond to your post, and it specifically says the Logan can benefit from The High King on the turn he arrives from reserves.

So it is still a valid threat. Be prepared for it!

A little late for the reply, but I was talking with some guys that are nationally ranked tournie players about it, because they absolutely wrecked people at our last tournament and I was worried it was going to dominate our next tournie, they said they asked about it and it got Errata'ed. You are right about the FAQ though, so I am not sure.

Snikrot with Burna equipped kommandos from what I've seen is pretty devestating to Long Fangs.

Gotta be careful with Snik's gang versus Long Fangs, though. They're probably going to pass their Counterattack test, and one squad will still get 19 attacks at I4.

To lose almost 1/3 of your Kommandos before you swing to a squad that's much cheaper overall is a pain. Even with the Burna power weapons, there's no guarantee that you wipe the squad in the first assault.

What is an Ork's base I? Won't furious charge boost them up over a marine?

sourclams wrote:Gotta be careful with Snik's gang versus Long Fangs, though. They're probably going to pass their Counterattack test, and one squad will still get 19 attacks at I4.

To lose almost 1/3 of your Kommandos before you swing to a squad that's much cheaper overall is a pain. Even with the Burna power weapons, there's no guarantee that you wipe the squad in the first assault.

Long fangs with heavy weapons only have 1 base attack, 2 for counter attack. Look at their profile= they trade their CCW for a Missile Launcher.


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osumicrobio wrote:What is an Ork's base I? Won't furious charge boost them up over a marine?

Base 2, 3 for charge. Nobs have base 3, 4 for charge.

scubasteve04 wrote:Long fangs with heavy weapons only have 1 base attack, 2 for counter attack. Look at their profile= they trade their CCW for a Missile Launcher.

I thought they were base A2 due to being vets. Looks like that's just the leader. Thanks for the correction.

Oh gross for the Initiative, for whatever reason I thought orks were 4 or at least 3 (haven't looked at their codex for a while)!!!

Yeah, its where quantity of attacks can really cause problems for orks. That and no armor save to speak of.

Long Fangs are a classic shooty unit and decent CC will murder them. At most, you are looking at 13 attacks. While still impressive as its just as many as a normal tac squad when charged, they will die like flies without an as. Heck, if you can get a couple of flamer templates on them, they struggle as a S4 template covering 6 will kill a long fang on average (which is either one less missile or no split fire). Unless they attached a WG, LFs have no ablative wounds to give up!

I would still be curious what points the OP plays at.

Redbeard: Please take your gripes to a different thread. SWolves are strong, but not "broken" or unbeatable anymore than Dark Eldar or Blood Angels are. But they are all legal codex and good players will learn to deal with it.

jmurph wrote:Yeah, its where quantity of attacks can really cause problems for orks. That and no armor save to speak of.

Long Fangs are a classic shooty unit and decent CC will murder them. At most, you are looking at 13 attacks. While still impressive as its just as many as a normal tac squad when charged, they will die like flies without an as. Heck, if you can get a couple of flamer templates on them, they struggle as a S4 template covering 6 will kill a long fang on average (which is either one less missile or no split fire). Unless they attached a WG, LFs have no ablative wounds to give up!

I would still be curious what points the OP plays at.

Redbeard: Please take your gripes to a different thread. SWolves are strong, but not "broken" or unbeatable anymore than Dark Eldar or Blood Angels are. But they are all legal codex and good players will learn to deal with it.

Space wolves are broken. Grey hunters get 30 attacks when they are charged instead of 10... for the... SAME FETHING PRICE AS TACTICAL MARINES. Cheap split fire long fangs that can be spammed to ungodly amounts. Thunderwolf HQs making the top CC units in the game. Absolutly slowed psyker powers and defense.

Its not bad when loyal SW players play balanced, themed lists. What kills it when people are like "HURRR 15 LONG FANGS, TWC LORDs, RUNE PRIESTS JAWS OF WORLD WOLF" in a friendly setting that really hurts SW reputation. Save it for tournaments, and know that its the codex winning, not you.

scubasteve04 wrote:

Space wolves are broken. Grey hunters get 30 attacks when they are charged instead of 10... for the... SAME FETHING PRICE AS TACTICAL MARINES.

Surely this is made up for by other deficiencies? lol just kidding.

scubasteve04 wrote:Space wolves are broken. Grey hunters get 30 attacks when they are charged instead of 10... for the... SAME FETHING PRICE AS TACTICAL MARINES.

Wow, 10 man grey hunters are so good that none of the competitive space wolf players I know run them in that configuration! The guys I know run them in units of 5 in razors. So it must not be THAT good.

scubasteve04 wrote:Cheap split fire long fangs that can be spammed to ungodly amounts.

...that can't move and fire, are vulnerable to anti-infantry fire, and to being charged without having to first break open a transport. Its jsut a shame they don't have any weaknesses at all. Except those three things.

scubasteve04 wrote:Thunderwolf HQs making the top CC units in the game.

They are pretty good aren't they. At 200 points per pop with the fist, shield mount and wolves... I sure hope they are pretty good. Especially when space marines can get a unit of assault terminators for 200.

scubasteve04 wrote:Absolutly slowed psyker powers and defense.

Take a breath. JOTWW is very swingy. I'd prefer it didn't exist. But as many times as it is unbelievably good, it is also pretty useless. the rune weapon is a streamlined way to roll a hood test. i hope all psychic hoods move to the unapposed roll. By switching to 4+, they did increase its effectiveness by 8%. Which doesn't seem like enough to break the game to me.

scubasteve04 wrote:Its not bad when loyal SW players play balanced, themed lists. What kills it when people are like "HURRR 15 LONG FANGS, TWC LORDs, RUNE PRIESTS JAWS OF WORLD WOLF" in a friendly setting that really hurts SW reputation. Save it for tournaments, and know that its the codex winning, not you.

Well thank goodness that there are people telling other people what they should or should not be playing in a "friendly setting". Without the fun police, we'd all just quit 40k. If its a friendly setting, then its your friend you are playing against. If its a large game store 'open gaming' situation, then you can choose not to play against armies you don't think you can beat. I don't have trouble beating space wolves... but I'm sure I'm playing with something "broken" and "tourney only" too.

Is it easier to just label something broken than to actually help the OP who just asked for some simple list building advice for his ork army?

Thank you for that shep.... I had to stay out of this as soon as I saw Redbeard's comment...

olympia wrote:And of course the GW battlewagon has a very small front profile so damn near everything should be able to get side armor shots on a battlewagon.

And as we all know, if something has a chance of dying on the battlefield it has no place in our army list.

Shep wrote:
Wow, 10 man grey hunters are so good that none of the competitive space wolf players I know run them in that configuration! The guys I know run them in units of 5 in razors. So it must not be THAT good.

So, a 5 man grey hunter squad can take a Special weapon, where a 5man Tactical squad cannot. 5 Grey hunters get 15 attacks when charged when tactical marines get 6, just further proving the point of how stupidly imbalanced grey hunters are compared to their codex brothers.

Shep wrote:
...that can't move and fire, are vulnerable to anti-infantry fire, and to being charged without having to first break open a transport. Its jsut a shame they don't have any weaknesses at all. Except those three things.

All stationary infantry weapons teams have the excact same problems. Lootas, Devs, HWTs, the only difference is Long Fangs are undercosted and imbalanced compared to the others.

Shep wrote:
They are pretty good aren't they. At 200 points per pop with the fist, shield mount and wolves... I sure hope they are pretty good. Especially when space marines can get a unit of assault terminators for 200.

Thunderwolves are one of the top tier CC units, if not the top. Thunderwolves will run through TH/SS terminators like they were nothing.

Shep wrote:
Take a breath. JOTWW is very swingy. I'd prefer it didn't exist. But as many times as it is unbelievably good, it is also pretty useless. the rune weapon is a streamlined way to roll a hood test. i hope all psychic hoods move to the unapposed roll. By switching to 4+, they did increase its effectiveness by 8%. Which doesn't seem like enough to break the game to me.

Swingy? A power that can literally take Carnifexes off the table on a 3+ is a little more then "swingy". Entire armies (Orks, Crons ect) are so screwed by this power its not even funny. I agree that some armies don't care (Eldar, Marines ect) but the power is still broken.

If they were trying to streamline the psyker defense, then the Psy hoods from the BA codex (which was made AFTER the SW codex) would be a 4+ as well. So SW have 8% better psy defense then all other MEQs, can take a 5+ on non-psy characters, and Njal does it on a 3+! Mephiston and Tigurus are better Psykers, yet Njal somehow beats them with this.

To the OP...

Expect a space wolves versus orks battle report soon. Kevin Nash will play the part of the plucky hero. And I'll be the skill-less jerk and take out my unpainted space wolf army against him. It is actually created using space wolves models shockingly.

I will try to get the game scheduled, the pictures taken and the results posted within a week...

I don't throw up my hands and say its hopeless...

But Scut, space wolf scouts suck, right?

Shep wrote:
Is it easier to just label something broken than to actually help the OP who just asked for some simple list building advice for his ork army?

We have tried to help the OP. Unfortunately, because of how not-broken the SW codex is, the viable options for playing against them are fairly minimal. It's like, you have to take specific things and other things are, statistically speaking, non-viable against the builds that the non-broken codex can put out.

It's like, put your guys in battle wagons and run special characters. Ghaz, snikrot and wagons. Or go home. But I guess being pigeon-holed into one build is a perfectly reasonable way of playing against a non-broken codex. It's not that you can't beat them, it's that your options are extremely limited if you want to. And that's not exactly what most people consider fun.


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Kevin Nash wrote: And as we all know, if something has a chance of dying on the battlefield it has no place in our army list.

Everything has a chance of dying. It's how significant that chance is that makes it viable or not. Battlewagons with a forcefield are probably the orks best bet. They certainly last longer than nob bikers do against JotWW.

Shep wrote:To the OP...

Expect a space wolves versus orks battle report soon. Kevin Nash will play the part of the plucky hero. And I'll be the skill-less jerk and take out my unpainted space wolf army against him. It is actually created using space wolves models shockingly.

I will try to get the game scheduled, the pictures taken and the results posted within a week...

I don't throw up my hands and say its hopeless...

Its not a hopless battle against space wolves, but they are still imbalanced, so its an uphill battle.

One battle also does not prove anything.

My marines can survive a charge from Orks when outnumbered due to superior stats, I cringe to think what GH can do with triple the attacks. Poor Orks

scubasteve04 wrote:
My marines can survive a charge from Orks when outnumbered due to superior stats, I cringe to think what GH can do with triple the attacks. Poor Orks

Wolf banners hurt too.

So wait, just so I am clear. The OP said in his opening post that he beats EVERY OTHER ARMY with his Orks and this thread is about the brokenness of Space Wolves and how Orks can't compete?

The worst part about Space Wolves is the army wide special rule "causes excessive whining from people who don't change their lists/tactics when playing against them".

All of the new codices are good (and I am thinking orks actually started the trend). They are all balanced pretty well against each other and have the tools to handle any other army.

If the Space Wolves guy is spreading out to get those side armor shots then won't a deffkopta with klaw have some fun outflanking? What about the 5+ cover that all ork vehicles have? How do Space Wolves ignore that?

OP had a legitimate question and most people have offered good suggestions. A few people have just complained as they do in every other thread that space wolves are even mentioned on. You guys don't like them. Fine, we get it. They aren't rampaging on the tourney scene like the interwebs would have you believe.

Maybe we can get the mods to set up a sticky where anytime someone wants to complain endlessly about space wolves they can just go there rather than polluting other threads. And they their reply can just simply be "go to this thread and see why we don't like wolves" to prevent any space wolf counter tactic thread from devolving into "don't play against space wolves, hurrrr".

Does JotWW affect jetbikes?


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Somnicide wrote:

All of the new codices are good (and I am thinking orks actually started the trend). They are all balanced pretty against each other and have the tools to handle any other army.

It's common knowledge that the new 'Nid codex is weak.

Redbeard wrote:

Shep wrote:
Is it easier to just label something broken than to actually help the OP who just asked for some simple list building advice for his ork army?

We have tried to help the OP. Unfortunately, because of how not-broken the SW codex is, the viable options for playing against them are fairly minimal. It's like, you have to take specific things and other things are, statistically speaking, non-viable against the builds that the non-broken codex can put out.

It's like, put your guys in battle wagons and run special characters. Ghaz, snikrot and wagons. Or go home. But I guess being pigeon-holed into one build is a perfectly reasonable way of playing against a non-broken codex. It's not that you can't beat them, it's that your options are extremely limited if you want to. And that's not exactly what most people consider fun.

Not every codex is gonna have 6 viable builds. That doesn't mean the codex is underpowered or opposing codices are overpowered.

Just because an opposing codex is at a point where you can't run flash gitz and win with them doesn't mean it's overpowered. It means flash gitz aren't a good unit choice. I'm sure I could find a way to make a space wolves list terrible too if I took every bad unit in the book in a crappy configuration.

Your version of 40k is one that mandates taking any unit in any codex and being able to win with it at all times. That's a very nice goal but completely unrealistic in terms of game balance. It's extremely difficult for game designers to achieve even two quality army builds in any codex, let alone what your 40ktopian view is. Orks have a way to beat space wolves just like most other codices have a way to do it: Build a good list with good units in it. Yes that means you can't take stormboyz or biovores or possessed or the entire necron codex and expect to win a competitive game with them. Sorry. That's reality.

Either accept you want to play with comp or bring a good list to win. You can't have it both ways.

Redbeard wrote:It's like, put your guys in battle wagons and run special characters. Ghaz, snikrot and wagons. Or go home. But I guess being pigeon-holed into one build is a perfectly reasonable way of playing against a non-broken codex. It's not that you can't beat them, it's that your options are extremely limited if you want to. And that's not exactly what most people consider fun.

That is a perfectly reasonable response, Red... I'm not being patronizing. Thats actually a pretty fair statement. But would it be alright if I extrapolated on it a little bit?

All of the complaints I have seen regarding space wolves really target three or four units. I see, in descending order of intensity... long fangs, thunderwolf mounted lords/cavalry, rune priests, and grey hunters.

What this means is that in order for a space wolf army to be considered "too good", that space wolf player is 'required' to take a very thin band of units. His choices are as limited as yours in terms of making the "good" list.

If an ork army that is taken to a tournament thick with space wolves has to take ghaz, kommandos, battlewagons, lootas, and shoota boy squads. Well, thats actually about the same exact requirements that the space wolf player has had to take. He has his one troop, his one heavy, his one or two HQ, and his one fast attack.

As the space wolf player takes less and less of the units listed, and more and more "other" units, the pressure on the orks is lessened. The more razorbacks that are taken and the more typhoons that are taken, the easier those vehicles are to be countered by your lootas and deffrollas.

In fact, if we pull down tournament data for ANY army, in competitive no comp tourneys. I guarantee you were are going to see this same narrow band of fielded units. Do vanilla space marine armies taking null zone librarians in a land raider with assault terminators bother you in the same way? Because the data from my gaming groups tournaments suggest that an overwhelming number of space marine players use that unit in every list they play. Are three ravagers going to start to bother you as dark eldar armies gain in popularity? Because you'll likely see the same number of ravagers as you will long fangs.

The limited number of units I am asking the OP to use in his ork army is narrow, because against competitive no-comp lists, the entire field has boiled their codex down to a half dozen units (out of a possible 30+). He is just joining in with the other tourney players. he is not being asked to do something that everyone else doesn't do to compete at that level.

If you want to play the orks the way you want to play your orks. And the idea of buying and painting new units or just altering your list in response to an ever changing metagame is just abhorrent to you, then thats a cross YOU have to bear. You are actually trying to guilt people into changing the lists that they have built for their own enjoyment in order for you to NOT have to change your list.

You control the environment you choose to play your games in. I respect anyones decision to refrain from competitive tourney play. Composition heavy tournaments like the Broadside bash this weekend exist for just this player type. But many of us play in no comp tourneys because thats the experience we enjoy.

I have found in my extensive tourney play, with both tyranids and imperial guard, and in observing my groupmates experiences with blood angels, orks, eldar, imperial guard, and space marines that after they had made extensive adjustments to their own lists, respecting a new and powerful codex, that they have not had difficulties reaching .500 win percentages. In fact, I haven't lost to space wolves in tourney play yet, with both IG and nids. And a fellow gaming group friend of mine Grimgob, has similarly not lost to space wolves yet in no comp competitive play, WITH ORKS. His list consists of those units we were mentioning earlier.

To summarize, I have data from our own no comp tourneys to support my stance that space wolves are a good army, but have not even come close to "broken competitive play". If a competitive spammy, focused list of any type faces an older, unadjusted and unfocused list, there will be discrepancies in win percentage. But this is not a space wolf phenomenon. This is one player refusing to adjust to a new player. Please do not blame deficiencies in competitiveness on a new codex. I've got personal experiences from countless tourney players and submitted list data from a full year of no comp RTTs and a GT held in Los Angeles to back up my stance.

if you don't want to adjust, don't. If you DO adjust, you can win a fair amount (I never said orks can build a list that beasts space wolves 100% of the time. Why would that be healthy for the metagame anyway?).

Somnicide wrote:
If the Space Wolves guy is spreading out to get those side armor shots then won't a deffkopta with klaw have some fun outflanking? What about the 5+ cover that all ork vehicles have? How do Space Wolves ignore that?

They actually get a 4+ cover save lol, and can be countered by volume of fire that Long Fangs can bring to the table.

So this is a SW hate thread now? Cool, just checking.

scubasteve04 wrote:
So, a 5 man grey hunter squad can take a Special weapon, where a 5man Tactical squad cannot. 5 Grey hunters get 15 attacks when charged when tactical marines get 6, just further proving the point of how stupidly imbalanced grey hunters are compared to their codex brothers.

That's right. And BA tacs get FC. Or troop Assault Squads. And Vulkan tacs get TL meltas/flamers. And Black Templars... What's your point? Different troops get different abilities. Are GHs good? Yes. Are they broken because they get 2 special instead of a heavy and special and Counter Attack instead of Combat Tactics? Hardly. Tacs aren't designed to be CC monsters. Many players don't like that. Not a flaw in tacs, just a mismatch in style- go BT, BA, SW, CSM, etc. if you want more fighty troops.

scubasteve04 wrote:
All stationary infantry weapons teams have the excact same problems. Lootas, Devs, HWTs, the only difference is Long Fangs are undercosted and imbalanced compared to the others.

Yep, lootas aren't undercosted at all. An BA tacs pay alot more for MLs.... wait a sec....

scubasteve04 wrote:
Thunderwolves are one of the top tier CC units, if not the top. Thunderwolves will run through TH/SS terminators like they were nothing.

And still die like flies to plasma, melta, battlecannons, etc. Unless you jack their cost up with stormshield. But then they also run twice the cost of an assault terminator and massed fire still brings them down fine. Well, as well CSM w/a nurgle icon, anyway.

scubasteve04 wrote:
Swingy? A power that can literally take Carnifexes off the table on a 3+ is a little more then "swingy". Entire armies (Orks, Crons ect) are so screwed by this power its not even funny. I agree that some armies don't care (Eldar, Marines ect) but the power is still broken.

Jaws is a poorly designed power and I wished it never saw print. Way too rock paper scissors. The fact that it beats up on subpar codexes doesn't help.

scubasteve04 wrote:
If they were trying to streamline the psyker defense, then the Psy hoods from the BA codex (which was made AFTER the SW codex) would be a 4+ as well. So SW have 8% better psy defense then all other MEQs, can take a 5+ on non-psy characters, and Njal does it on a 3+! Mephiston and Tigurus are better Psykers, yet Njal somehow beats them with this.

Special characters often do kooky things. Njal shuts down psykers, hardly that impressive. Meph is far more scary.

Sounds like alot of sour grapes that C:SM don't play like how you like. SWs are good, no doubt, but not broken. Repetitive lists certainly do get old, and I can appreciate that seeing 15 LFs every time a SW player sets up can get dull. OTO, this is the first time in years that my old metal LFs are actually worth putting on the table. And cherry picking the best units to point to "brokeness" without looking at the overall list is a bit disingenious. You don't see TWC in every list, for example.

I think the bigger issue is that some Codexes lack alot in the way of competitive options (Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Tau), not that SWs has too many.

Somnicide wrote:

All of the new codices are good (and I am thinking orks actually started the trend). They are all balanced pretty well against each other and have the tools to handle any other army.

Actually don't blame that on the Orks. Its been going on for years... Does anybody remember when the current Eldar codex came out... I don't but I've heard legends. In fact the Eldar codex was so powerful when it came out that many people at the hobby shops I play at are STILL convinced that Eldar are the most broken race in the game. Maybe Space Wolves and Blood Angels have changed that, but many people who have played the game for a while still fear the Eldar.

Anyway from the looks of this thread, the majority of the suggestions for beating a tournament Space Wolves list (LF spam, Thunderwolves, and razors) is to take a... tournament ork list (wagons, KFF, lootas). Well Gee, that makes sense.

If somebody is playing a cut throat list, you shouldn't expect to fight on equal footing unless you are also playing a cut-throat list. Any of the strong tourney armies can run cut throat lists that will fight on par with the wolves. Its just tough .

While I won't argue that the Furry codex isn't *too* good- I actually think that the glitter marines are more OTT- but thats not the point at all. What I am asserting is that beating a cut throat space wolf list is very possible with other cut throat lists, and I am nearly certain Orks are very capable of doing just that. Orks- at least certain builds- are still a top tier head krumpin army.

@Shep: tl;dr So shep, is it your opinion that regular tactical marines are over-priced or is it the case that Grey Hunters are under-priced?

the only argument i bring to the table is this, if the codex is so fair as many space wolf players claim, then why is it quite possibly the most controversial and hotly debated rulebook in 40k? there's a reason you don't have threads raging about Dark Eldar, Blood Angels (aside from mephiston/slowed fluff), or any other army aside form maybe Guard once in while, while you can see a space wolf flame war crop up every week.

olympia wrote:@Shep: tl;dr So shep, is it your opinion that regular tactical marines are over-priced or is it the case that Grey Hunters are under-priced?

neither. it is an apples to oranges comparison.

Shep wrote:
That is a perfectly reasonable response, Red... I'm not being patronizing. Thats actually a pretty fair statement. But would it be alright if I extrapolated on it a little bit?

All of the complaints I have seen regarding space wolves really target three or four units. I see, in descending order of intensity... long fangs, thunderwolf mounted lords/cavalry, rune priests, and grey hunters.

What this means is that in order for a space wolfsdfdfsdf..............................
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Ok, my Issue is not the cookie cutter tourny style play you seem to be justifying. I always advocate the use of the strongest units in a certain codex.

My issue is the blatent cross comparisions you can draw from SW and the rest of the MEQ world, and they are always in favor of the SW.

-Grey Hunters get 3 attacks on attack and defense, whilst ALL other rank-and-file bolter marines get 2 on attack and 1 on defense? For the same cost? Why?????????????????!

-8% better Pysker defense from standard Rune priests then all other MEQ in exsistance, including Tigurus(dude who talks to the hive mind) and Mephiston(overcame the red thirst and is basically a demon prince)? Nyjal nullifies 66% of all powers within 2 feet? Any character can have psyker defense? Ugh.

-TWC that gives T 5, not T 5(4) like the rest of the marine world. Standard run-of-the-mill TWC Wolf Lord can be kitted out to go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything in the game barring a Ctan.

-Devs with better leadership, cheaper weapons, more weapons per squad, and can split fire. Shoot me in the face please.

What makes SW so special? Are they the Emperors personal bodyguard or something? Best Marines ever?



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Somnicide wrote:

olympia wrote:@Shep: tl;dr So shep, is it your opinion that regular tactical marines are over-priced or is it the case that Grey Hunters are under-priced?

neither. it is an apples to oranges comparison.

Actually, your pretty much comparing apples here.

akaen- Yeah, there ia always a list someone cries about. Tri-falc eldar in 4th were ridiculous. Nidzilla was bonkers for a while. Etc., etc.

scubasteve: Of course Space Wolves are the best marines ever! They are vikings....IN SPACE! ;-)

Tacs are overpriced/underequipped. Said that when they came out compared to CSM. Should have BP/Bolter/CCW. All basic marines should.

And you know BA devs pay the same price as SW for a missile launcher right? No split fire, but they get a signum and can get bodies to soak fire. I am actually surprised I don't see more 12 missile lists with a sanguinary priest hanging around to make them really hard to get rid of!

@scubasteve

how much are 5 wolf guard in terminator armor with thunder hammer storm shield?

Which unit has null zone?

What slot are the predators that can move 12" and fire? And move 18"

What is the mephiston equivalent?

Which special character makes space wolf bikes troops?

Which special character makes space wolf meltas and flamers twin linked, and master crafts their thunderhammers?

What slot is the 50 point model that gives everyone in 6" FNP and furious charge?

Do space wolf razorbacks move 12" and fire? Can they move 6" and shoot both of the lasplas?

Do they have fearless terminators that can have THSS and cyclone missiles? Are theirs troops?

See this is an exercise in futility. You are comparing apples to oranges as has been said before. And LOOK I can do it too.

I shouldnt be posting this, as its WAY off-topic... but grats, you baited me.

Shep wrote:
All of the complaints I have seen regarding space wolves really target three or four units. I see, in descending order of intensity... long fangs, thunderwolf mounted lords/cavalry, rune priests, and grey hunters.

What this means is that in order for a space wolf army to be considered "too good", that space wolf player is 'required' to take a very thin band of units. His choices are as limited as yours in terms of making the "good" list.

I'm not sure I agree with you here. Well, I am, but not for the same reasons. The Space Wolf player has several options that could be competitive, only, they're not as good as the other options in his own codex. He's not being limited by what ork players take, he's limited by what other space wolf players can take. HF/MM speeders and Typhoons factor in other marine army lists and are perfectly serviceable units in those codexes. But, in the Space Wolf codex, they're not as good/cheap as the Cav or Long Fangs.

So, what I see is:
Codex Space Wolves is the limiting factor on Codex Space Wolves. There are plenty of decent options in the codex, and they compete against each other, not external forces, for inclusion.

Codex Space Wolves is also the limiting factor on other MEQ armies, other than Blood Angels. And I say this because of the number of Marine and Chaos Marine players that have jumped ship to Codex: Space Wolves.
Codex Space Wolves is the limiting factor on Codex: Chaos Daemons. JotWW takes Nurgle Daemons out of the picture, among other things. Massed cheap missiles, and a 'better' deathstar limit Crushers too. I expect Codex: Grey Knights to further limit Daemons
Codex Space Wolves is a limiting factor on Codex: Orks. I think Blood Angels assault troops and FnP limits foot-slogging boyz, but Space Wolves limit most other Ork builds.
Codex Space Wolves is a limit on Tyranids. JotWW and massed missiles take a lot of otherwise viable builds out of the picture.

Eldar/Tau/Necrons are all simply showing age. Blood Angels and Guard are internally limited (you're picking from among good units in your own book, rather than being constricted by outside forces as much), and I don't know enough about how Dark Eldar fit in yet to really fit them in.

The above doesn't mean that the limited army will always lose to the other, what it means is that the number of viable choices in their codex are restricted by the existence of the other. Pre-Codex: Space Wolves, the Great Unclean One was a good choice. Post-Codex:Space Wolves, he really isn't. That's a limit.

Anyway, you can agree or disagree with the above, but it's how I see the current competitive environment. And, it's why I believe Space Wolves are 'broken'. No single other codex creates so many external limits on other codexes as this one. It single-handedly takes any low initiative MC approach out of the game. With the trumpiest of deathstars, it scares off other deathstar armies. With superiour, cheap shooting, it knocks out other shooty forces.

I agree with most of your other points. In any meta-game, some things will be viable and some will not, and lists will evolve towards the viable. That's fine. They published it, it's legal, etc. You can beat it, sure. But that doesn't mean that it's not exerting more pressure on the meta-game than any other codex. And, I believe, it's exerting more pressure on the current meta-game than any other single codex has in the six or so years I've been playing competitively. I don't think that's good for the environment, and I think it shows poor writing and poor playtesting.

Redbeard wrote:But I guess being pigeon-holed into one build is a perfectly reasonable way of playing against a non-broken codex. It's not that you can't beat them, it's that your options are extremely limited if you want to. And that's not exactly what most people consider fun.

Chaos Codex
Codex: Deathwing

We could probably argue over Tyranids, Eldar and now the Ork codex as well.

Getting pigeonholed into lame builds is nothing new. I'm not defending it, or saying it's good, or that there is nothing to be done except accept it and move on.

The meta has shifted, and not in a way good for the Ork 'dex. The good news is that the meta is still shifting, and in a way unfavorable to SW with the advent of the Dark Eldar 'we kill foot marines dead' builds and the ultra mega elite GK around the corner.

Neither of those dynamics actually make the Ork dex any better by comparison of course, but both of them taken together could spell a decline in 30 Missilewolves lists.

jmurph wrote: So this is a SW hate thread now? Cool, just checking.

Yea, you play the flavor of the month most OP and hated codex. Deal with it.

jmurph wrote: That's right. And BA tacs get FC. Or troop Assault Squads. And Vulkan tacs get TL meltas/flamers. And Black Templars... What's your point? Different troops get different abilities. Are GHs good? Yes. Are they broken because they get 2 special instead of a heavy and special and Counter Attack instead of Combat Tactics? Hardly. Tacs aren't designed to be CC monsters. Many players don't like that. Not a flaw in tacs, just a mismatch in style- go BT, BA, SW, CSM, etc. if you want more fighty troops.

All of the examples you have given are agumented by adding characters. GH get their abilities in their base profile.

One of the biggest jobs of a tactical squad is to move up, jump out of a rhino, dump 10-20 bolter shots into the enemy, then brace for a counter attack. Grey hunters do much better at this then any other tactical marine at the same cost.

They get a extra CCW and counter attack. We get combat tactics that let us basicly choose to retreat and be escorted off the board (or take no retreat wounds)

jmurph wrote: Yep, lootas aren't undercosted at all. An BA tacs pay alot more for MLs.... wait a sec....

LD 9, more HW than Devs, split fire, marines not orks, Str 8 AND blasts, not str 7

jmurph wrote:And still die like flies to plasma, melta, battlecannons, etc. Unless you jack their cost up with stormshield. But then they also run twice the cost of an assault terminator and massed fire still brings them down fine. Well, as well CSM w/a nurgle icon, anyway.

I don't think you fully understand the full capabilities of TWC so im just gonna skip this one.

jmurph wrote:
Special characters often do kooky things. Njal shuts down psykers, hardly that impressive. Meph is far more scary.

Sounds like alot of sour grapes that C:SM don't play like how you like. SWs are good, no doubt, but not broken. Repetitive lists certainly do get old, and I can appreciate that seeing 15 LFs every time a SW player sets up can get dull. OTO, this is the first time in years that my old metal LFs are actually worth putting on the table. And cherry picking the best units to point to "brokeness" without looking at the overall list is a bit disingenious. You don't see TWC in every list, for example.

I think the bigger issue is that some Codexes lack alot in the way of competitive options (Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Tau), not that SWs has too many.

SW are the most powerful codex. I understand if you are an old-school SW player, and build varied lists. Just be aware of the group of FOTM codex hoppers WAAC guys you are being lumped into


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Shep wrote:@scubasteve

how much are 5 wolf guard in terminator armor with thunder hammer storm shield?

Which unit has null zone?

What slot are the predators that can move 12" and fire? And move 18"

What is the mephiston equivalent?

Which special character makes space wolf bikes troops?

Which special character makes space wolf meltas and flamers twin linked, and master crafts their thunderhammers?

What slot is the 50 point model that gives everyone in 6" FNP and furious charge?

Do space wolf razorbacks move 12" and fire? Can they move 6" and shoot both of the lasplas?

Do they have fearless terminators that can have THSS and cyclone missiles? Are theirs troops?

See this is an exercise in futility. You are comparing apples to oranges as has been said before. And LOOK I can do it too.

I shouldnt be posting this, as its WAY off-topic... but grats, you baited me.

Barring Null Zone (supported by Lysander, Vindis, Ironclads) you can pretty much throw some TWC at any of this stuff and come out on top.

Space Wolves are a top tier army with many powerful, undercosted units. Deal with it.

Orks suck, and have sucked for quite a while now. Deal with it.

What else is there to say? Try new lists. Try new tactics. Adapt! That's what part of the fun of 40k: designing a better army than your opponent's to win.

There is no such thing as a "cookie cutter" or "boring" list. Only bad and good lists.

Redbeard wrote:Funny, from a guy with a SWolves icon.... SWolves are the most overpowered codex I've ever seen. You get 5 missiles that can split fire for less than vanilla marines get four missiles. That's not overpowered?

Nope. Vanilla marine Devs are just underpowered. Take a look at Codex: BA.

Redbeard wrote:You have the best psychic power in the game.

Er, which is that again? Last time I checked, the best psychic power in the game was still Null Zone...

Redbeard wrote:Look, there's a reason that people have stopped playing 'their' armies, and started playing them as counts-as Space Wolves.

Yeah, and that's because people always play the new thing. A lot of those people switched to counts-as Blood Angels when that Codex came out too?

scubasteve04 wrote:SW are the most powerful codex. I understand if you are an old-school SW player, and build varied lists. Just be aware of the group of FOTM codex hoppers WAAC guys you are being lumped into

I'd say that's entirely debatable. At 2k-2.5k, it really seems DE are capable of shredding Wolfstar and Missilewolves. Razorspam is still very powerful, but BA do that just as well as Wolves.

dirtypete wrote:Here's how it is.

My Boyz have beaten every race they have played so far except the SW. Every single time they get railed, not matter what the list.

Longfangs tear me open, Logan comes down in a pod of death supported by more Longfangs. Grey Hunters race towards me in Rhinos or RB's, and if I get really lucky maybe some termies will pile out of a landraider I cant kill and eat me alive.

Does anyone have some tips as to how my Boyz can fair better against what is in my opinion one of the toughest armies around at the moment?

Back to OP...

I play a speed freak list that have done well against the myriad gun-line army.

The idea is that whatever list you're playing, you've got to deliver the boyz to their target and get the charge off (which, really is the main tactic of practically every ork army ).

I have 4 trukk filled with boyz and PK+BP nobz.

2 squad of 11 warbikers and PK+BP nobz

2 Buzzsaw+TL rokkit Deffkopta (in separate FA slot)

2 man rokkit buggies (in single FA slot)

Wazzdakka

Warboss on bike+PK, cyborked, etc...

Snikrot +Kommando (2x burnas)

Now, many folks don't like the warbikers because of their cost and they "can" be broken due to their low leadership. But, consider this... the warbikers can screen the entire army rocking with the 4+ coversave (3+ if they turbo'ed).

Then 4 trukks right behind them. I can usually get them into assault range by 2 turn.

I usually get 1st turn assault with the deffkoptas (go after the Longfangs or Rhinos).

Snikrot's unit... while he seems expensive for ork upgrade, his unit almost ALWAYS is worth it's points in the game I've played.

The key with this is having a list that forces your opponent to pick his target...

IE...
-are the warbikers getting shot at? Each unit can dish out 33 STR5 TL shots... nothing to sneeze at. They can potentially get first shot at the longfangs.
-are the 4 trukks getting shot at? Which either has flatted out in first turn (most likely) or is screened by the warbikers ('nother 4+ cover)
-are the two warbosses getting shot at? They're usually scooting around by themselves... they can be ignored, but they will hurt you in turn 2...
-Then there's the deffkopta, warbuggies and snikrot unit... while they may not be uber awesome unit, they just mess with the opponent mindset.

Basically, more so against the SW Longfang list... shoot the crap out of the TWC, but get in the long fang's gills ASAP.

But be sure you offered the DICE gods the appropriate offerings...

scubasteve04 wrote:

jmurph wrote: That's right. And BA tacs get FC. Or troop Assault Squads. And Vulkan tacs get TL meltas/flamers. And Black Templars... What's your point? Different troops get different abilities. Are GHs good? Yes. Are they broken because they get 2 special instead of a heavy and special and Counter Attack instead of Combat Tactics? Hardly. Tacs aren't designed to be CC monsters. Many players don't like that. Not a flaw in tacs, just a mismatch in style- go BT, BA, SW, CSM, etc. if you want more fighty troops.

All of the examples you have given are agumented by adding characters. GH get their abilities in their base profile.

One of the biggest jobs of a tactical squad is to move up, jump out of a rhino, dump 10-20 bolter shots into the enemy, then brace for a counter attack. Grey hunters do much better at this then any other tactical marine at the same cost.

Here is where I stopped taking you seriously. If you are jumping out of a working rhino, you are doing Tactical Squads wrong.

scubasteve04 wrote:

jmurph wrote:And still die like flies to plasma, melta, battlecannons, etc. Unless you jack their cost up with stormshield. But then they also run twice the cost of an assault terminator and massed fire still brings them down fine. Well, as well CSM w/a nurgle icon, anyway.

I don't think you fully understand the full capabilities of TWC so im just gonna skip this one.

Glad you did skip that one, it seems clear to me that you are overwhelmed by powerful units despite them being used sub-obtimally. I can see why you would have difficulty dealing with TWC when you dismount troops to shoot plasma at them. They still suffer the same weaknesses everyone does when trying to assault a vehicle: they are near impossible to hit, then you get another defacto saving throw on the vehicle damage table.

Shep really knows what he is talking about, even a cursory glance at his posts indicates that. Simply handwaving away his extensive (and incomplete) list of things other SM codices do better will not make them go away.

People forget that prior to SW, IG were the target of all this same irrational hate.

People forget that prior to SW, IG were the target of all this same irrational hate.

QFT. People just love to whine and complain, instead of changing tactics and adapting.

Fearspect wrote:
Here is where I stopped taking you seriously. If you are jumping out of a working rhino, you are doing Tactical Squads wrong.

Tactical squads actually need to get outside of their rhino to shoot anything. They don't have those guns for decoration.

Fearspect wrote:

Glad you did skip that one, it seems clear to me that you are overwhelmed by powerful units despite them being used sub-obtimally. I can see why you would have difficulty dealing with TWC when you dismount troops to shoot plasma at them. They still suffer the same weaknesses everyone does when trying to assault a vehicle: they are near impossible to hit, then you get another defacto saving throw on the vehicle damage table.

Shep really knows what he is talking about, even a cursory glance at his posts indicates that. Simply handwaving away his extensive (and incomplete) list of things other SM codices do better will not make them go away.

People forget that prior to SW, IG were the target of all this same irrational hate.

When did I ever once say I attempted to kill TWC with dismounting troops to shoot plasma? Are you slowed or something?

If I want to kill TWC, I will cast null zone, shoot vindis at them and then charge with Lysander+TH/SS terms. Whatever isn't killed will be escorted off the board. This is best case scenario though, but thankfully due to SWs players narrowmindess to only spam STR 8, and take a couple meltaguns, I can usually get the charge out of a Land Raider. Last game I played against cookie cutter SW twc, I charged out turn 2, and only had to kill his frenisian wolves to break combat, and escort the unharmed TWC lords off the board.

Not all armies can really kill TWC effectively (Back on topic, take deffrollas on those battlewagons!), and they are still the top CC unit in the game.

IG probably got all that hate because they were in the same position that SW are in now. You play the most abused codex, deal with it.

Psst... Rhinos have a firepoint. Anyway, you are just showing your ignorance of commonly known tournament tactics at this point...

Probably the #1 reason you are having problems with armies that have TWC in it, by the way, is because you are playing with Lysander and Vindicators in your own

Fearspect wrote:Psst... Rhinos have a firepoint. Anyway, you are just showing your ignorance of commonly known tournament tactics at this point...

I am quite aware that firing specials out the top hatch is a common tactic. There is times tough, by choice or not, when your Marines are on foot and are gonna be taking charges left and right. Im not arguing about GH anymore. Its pretty common knowledge, and quite obvious that GH are the most powerfull point-for-point MEQ troops in the game.

Fearspect wrote:Probably the #1 reason you are having problems with armies that have TWC in it, by the way, is because you are playing with Lysander and Vindicators in your own

I never once said I had problems against TWC. I have never lost against a TWC list. I have issues with the codex in general, and I know some people have a great difficulty with TWC.

The most powerful point-for-point MEQ troops in the game is a TH/SS Deathwing Squad with CML and an Apothecary.

Fearspect wrote:The most powerful point-for-point MEQ troops in the game is a TH/SS Deathwing Squad with CML and an Apothecary.

Touche, I forgot about the recent FAQ.

Its still a good troop in a crap codex though, unfortunatly.

Firstly, OP, I have found that Snikrot is beastly against Space Wolves. Shut down some firepower in their back field wihile you march the mass of your troops to smash them in the face. It's a rough battle, but I have done it at 2000 and fewer points.
At everyone else; are we sure that we aren't confusing broken with just really effing good? The codex is good, nobody can deny that, and I'm sure most of us can agree that it is the best marine codex out there. But it in no way breaks the game. Breaking the game imo is when you create an army list/ codex that degenerates the meta into either everyone plays that or the answer to that army. And sure, we can argue that price prevents that, but still, I haven't seen either online or locally, a degenerate meta.
Sure, one can argue that SW are the easy button for marines, allowing anyone to win with marines so long as they play that book. However, locally SW are not as dominant because we have smart players that don't go "OMG, broken!!!" but instead "I know I'm playing SW, so I'll play my list this way." But it still hasn't created a degenerate meta, which imo is the defining factor of broken.
Congrats SW, you are hated because you are good, just like all non-Nid books to come out lately. But that is all you are, really stupid good. And that can still be beaten.

..

Shep has had nothing but sound advice this whole thread.

Are puppies unbeatable? Hell no.

Are they very strong? Hell yes.

Can orks beat them? Certainly.

Can it be an uphill battle? Sure, especially if the puppies go first and it can depend on the mission as well.

Are orks 'pigeon holed'? Could be if you want to bring an all comers list. Look at sourclams post above about other armies in similar straits.

To be fair, imweasel, 40k is an uphill battle no matter what armies are playing if your opponent is going first...

Thanks for all the tips people, especially Redbeard & Shep.

I played like 10 games with Jihallah one week and tried various lists against the SW and failed miserabely. I will try some of the suggestions (such as Snikrot) and see how I go. I am glad to know that I am not the only Ork player that has difficulties with this codex.

I didn't mean for this thread to turn into a whine thread about the SW. Yes they are tough, and yes they have the best codex in the game (hence people like my mate Jihallah playing Choas as SW). Not only are the SW tough but Jihallah is also an excellent player and I actually look forward to playing his SW because even if/when I lose I am always learning more about the game.

Now a whine thread about the stupid JotWW power - that is a whine thread worth creating. I wonder whether GW play-tested that at all...

To the OP:

You seem to have gotten this already but I think shep is one of the more talented ork players after reading several of his battle reps and reading his aforementioned opinions in this thread, i'd say go with what he says. It was said a couple times before, but you can certainly take a cut throat list to counter another cut throat list. Tourney v. Tourney seems fair to me as does Friendly v. Friendly. Snikrot is sexy and Ghazzy is as close to an invincible character as we can get so if you want to go toe to toe with them, take those two for sure. And last time I checked, lootas were disputably the best elite choice for orks. Id take them in any list.

To the rest:

In the spirit of not taking ourselves and the game to seriously I would like to posit this theory...

If you are an ork player, you are under the gaze and influence of Gork and Mork.

If your Waaagh pleases them, then they will smile upon you...or grimace...or make some guttural noises of approval as they cause all your dice to roll 6s. (Aside from ld tests of course )

If your Waaagh does not please them, or perhaps they're in a bad mood that day, then they will turn their gaze elsewhere or laugh at your misfortune as you role 1s and 2s.

The best way to assure that you are one of the favored Waaaghs is by conducting yourself in the Orkiest of manners possible. This includes finding the quickest way from point A (your deployment) to point B (the nearest krumpable head) and simply reveling in the carnage of battle regardless of consequences.

That's my suggestion

Fearspect wrote:
People forget that prior to SW, IG were the target of all this same irrational hate.

It's ALWAYS the most recent codex, unless that codex was weak ('5th 'nids) or extremely rare (Sisters). If there is no hate for the most recent book, it's the clearest signal you'll ever get to get out of the army while you can. Sometimes it's a single trick or two (5th Chaos for Lash), and sometimes it's a cornucopia of asskicking (IG, SW, BA), but if the new book isn't pressing the meta *somewhere* enough to make people scream it's unlikely to be a good book.

I mean, what do you think happened when the very first SW, BA, and DA books hit?

I love that theres so much discussion on TWC, a topic that doesn't help the OP (as mentioned on the front page, I don't have TWC).

I am a big fan of GH (as mentioned by some in the thread, I'm of the opinion they are one of the best troop choices in the game, both for cost and versatility), Speeders, dreads. I like using a pair of vindicators too, I haven't used them for awhile i realized the other day (being dicking around with Logan and Bjorn lists and getting the feel for using speeders since i got them recently), so I'll be cracking them out in the next few games

Redbeard wrote:

jmurph wrote:, you can't blubber about how overpowered the SWolves are

Funny, from a guy with a SWolves icon.... SWolves are the most overpowered codex I've ever seen. You get 5 missiles that can split fire for less than vanilla marines get four missiles. That's not overpowered? You get mounts that boost your actual toughness (as opposed to effective toughness, like a bike) making your characters immune to the most readily-available instant-deaths. You have the best anti-psychic tools in the game. You have the best psychic power in the game. Along with the ability to take 4 HQs, letting you double up on it if needed. You've got, at your disposal, the hardest-hitting deathstar in the game, the cheapest, most effective fire-support units, and a very solid core of all-arounder troops that can pack melta weapons, and can generally be relied to get 3-attacks, even when charged (compare to 1 for vanilla marines).

Look, there's a reason that people have stopped playing 'their' armies, and started playing them as counts-as Space Wolves. If SWolves weren't overpowered, chaos players wouldn't be using their codex. Vanilla marine players wouldn't be using the codex. I feel sorry for old-time SWolf players because they're getting lumped in with all the codex hoppers, but that's how it is. It's a broken codex that decimates the metagame and provides an easy-win solution for not-so-good players to fall back on.

I have now learned alot.. I feel somewhat cheated that I went to the dakka mini-tourney at warhammer world and everone in attendance got roflstomped by some random bloke with 4 posts who was playing a vanilla SM army as "counts as" Space Wolves.

In fact, I wont play in a tourney again. That bastard walked off with the Battleforce easily with his proxy counts as 15 ML army ...

He might as well have mugged us at gun point!

Shep wrote:It takes just a glance at both books and typical space wolf armies to see that battlewagons are quite difficult for space wolves. There is probably a thread right now, somewhere on the internet, where someone is asking "What do I do against deffrollas with my space wolves?"

Take battlewagons with deffrollas, and roll right over all of his razorbacks, if his thunderwolf cavalry gets in the way rolla them too. You can comfortably fit 4 battlewagons in a 1500 point army and still include some loota fire support and a substantial model count of boys.

Space wolves don't typically take maneuverable anti-tank shooting units, theirs are static or move 6" max, and can't punch armor 14, their answer to battlewagons will probably be thunderwolves. If they don't also have thunderwolves along with their long fangs, then you'll really have no problem. Even if they do, you still have answers...

Use loota fire and shoota boy fire in oder to saturate the thunderwolf units so that they won't be able to gaff deffrolla wounds onto any accompanying fensrisian wolves. Once most or all the fenrisians are dead, line up as many tank shocks as possible, 4 tank shocks means 4d6 deffrolla hits, and 4 leadership tests, two things that hit them right in the breadbasket. 12 wounds caused on average from 4d6 hits, IDs 4 lords/TWC.

Moast spacewolf lists include a front line melta group of 3. And some landspeeders. But as long as you can get the charge on them you should be OK!

What I do for space wolves is create a 'gun line' of shoota boyz and keep a few slugga boy mobz in reseve. I use maximum size mobz of 3 shoota boy mobz and 2 slugga mobz. You should use a kff mek to keep them alive and lootas to pop the rhinos and then shoot the grey hunters with the shootas. If you space the boyz out there will be no room for the logan drop pod to land. Snikrot is good for holding up long fangs and Kanz can take the land raider. You can get all of this in 2000pts. The idea is you need kill as many assult troops as you can whilst keeping slugga boyz in reserve, when the shoota boyz die bring on the sluggas for a counter attack. Normally squads will only have 3 or four members in by the time the sluggas come on and somtimes its good to charge multiple units.

moonshine wrote:What I do for space wolves is create a 'gun line' of shoota boyz and keep a few slugga boy mobz in reseve. I use maximum size mobz of 3 shoota boy mobz and 2 slugga mobz. You should use a kff mek to keep them alive and lootas to pop the rhinos and then shoot the grey hunters with the shootas. If you space the boyz out there will be no room for the logan drop pod to land. Snikrot is good for holding up long fangs and Kanz can take the land raider. You can get all of this in 2000pts. The idea is you need kill as many assult troops as you can whilst keeping slugga boyz in reserve, when the shoota boyz die bring on the sluggas for a counter attack. Normally squads will only have 3 or four members in by the time the sluggas come on and somtimes its good to charge multiple units.

Now this is a strat I should probably look at. As Jihallah mentioned in his last post, GH are the core of his 'whip ass' not TWC. Me boyz don't like being counter-attacked while on the charge so much.

However I must admit that it is a little off-putting running Shoota Boyz and trying to out-shoot a SM/SW codex. I see how keeping some distance migh be valuable, but even if I am taking more models, hitting on 5's against power armour? Could be asking for a beating...

Use Killkannons.

dirtypete wrote:However I must admit that it is a little off-putting running Shoota Boyz and trying to out-shoot a SM/SW codex. I see how keeping some distance migh be valuable, but even if I am taking more models, hitting on 5's against power armour? Could be asking for a beating...

The reason I run shootas is beacuse I've learned that when playing against sw the best tactic is to try and 'weather the storm'. I don't try to kill them all, just soften them up a bit so it's not so bad being charged, If you destroy their rhinos you could get 2-3 rounds of shooting done before they charge. After they attack the idea is to counter attack them beacuse you can't kill them all but you can kill enough of them to make it easy for the slugga boyz to kill 1 or 2 squads when they charge multiple units.

GH units have a huge weakness, their LD is only 8 so if you spam them you aren't able to put WG with them and it sucks when lootas pop a rhino and the squad gets pinned. Also Necrons are really good against the ML spam. The ML can't do jack to the monolith and then the 15 destroyers pop out and dakka the fangs to death (just happened to me today actually, and I can't wait for everyone to start laughing at me because I lost to necrons. necrons are no joke with the new meta game of lots of low armored vehicles).

A unit of six Grey Hunters, with special ranged weapon, special close combat weapon, Wulfen, Wolfguard, Icon, and one regular Grey Hunter. That's five single-wound complex unit: Two wounds are required for a Morale test. You only need to inflict six wounds to kill the unit.

They'll be Ld9 because of the Wolfguard, but their cost per model will go up. Again, what other Space Wolf units have 6 models? Long Fangs with Wolfguard.

Talk about eggs in baskets. The basket is, of course, a Rhino/Razorback. The thing is that many of the weapons that are good at killing AV11 units are also good at killlng Space Marines.

What the Orks need to do is spread that firepower around. Hence the need for large units of Lootas, backed up by Battlewagons with Killkannons. Take Shoota Boyz and Rokkit Launchas in those units. A couple of Drednoughts would round out the army nice, or perhaps a couple of units of Nob Troops, or one and one.

For example, imagine that you have two scenarios:

Scenario 1
You have a unit of Shootas and a unit of Lootas facing three enemy Razorbacks all topped up with the unit above, or something that reduces the unit to 5 to accomodate a Wolflord or Rune Priest. Supposing that, somehow, the Razorbacks are all equally distant and identically armed (Stronos pattern), what would you shoot, and in what order?

The Lootas can shoot through the Shootas without giving the vehicle a cover save (infantry don't give vehicles a cover save). Pick a Razorback at random and shoot with the Lootas, then whatever happens shoot with the Shootas.

The Battlewagons have AV14 to the front, and they can become closed topped while dishing out killkannon firepower: It has the same effect as a Battle Cannon where Power Armoured infantry is concerned.

Alternatively, there's room for 12 Lootas to fire out of an open-topped Battlewagon, but that's eggs and baskets again.

Don't take the fight to the Space Wolves until you've shot them up. In some case, you may need to actively retreat.

A single boy wih a shoota can be expected to kill 0.11 Space Marines. So with nine boyz, you have a reasonable expectation of doing one unsaved wound, or one casualty.

A single boy with a rokkit launcha gets 0.27 Space Marines without cover, half of that with cover. That's basically 2+ on 1D6 if you have three shooting. You want to maintain that 13"-18" range, so 9 Shootas and 3 Rokkits in range is good. Six Grey Hunters with Boltguns, wait, minus the guy who has a Melta Gun, and the Wulfen, so either four shots because it's Rapid Fire between 12"-24" and they stood still, or eight shots because it's Rapid Fire under 12" since they moved closer.

At four shots vs Orks with no cover that's 1.32 expected casualties without cover, at eight shots that's 2.64. So you should lose three Orks while they lose two Marines. Do that trade for three turns, and you can reasonably expect to wipe out the Space Wolves while losing nine Orks. You lose 54pts of Shoota Boyz while he loses a unit of Grey Hunters. I expect Grey Hunters to press on since they maximize firepower that way, and the 18" range allows Shoota Boyz to move back into that choice-zone of standing still and let logistics sort it out, or charging forward and hoping to get into combat. Give yourself plenty of room to fall back though.

If you try to assault SW with Orks, it won't go well. You have to shoot them.

If someone is using max Long Fangs with TWC and Razorback GH, then really the only thing you can do is take an equally spammy list and fight it out.

Like 30 Lootas, 9 Kannons, 9 Warbuggies, and then the rest in Shoota Boys, or Warbikes and Wazzdakka for some extra speed.

I think that a properly built Wazdakka list can do some damage to Wolves. You can outrun TWC most of the timje, so as long as you load up on fire support units like I just mentioned, I think you'll be fine.

Of course, this style of Ork list is not something everyone can do, or maybe even wants to, I'm just saying, if your opponent is using the very best units out of SW, then your best bet to win is to do the same thing with your own. SW aren't good because of LF and TWC, there good because people spam those units relentlessly.

Bluggh. The meta-scenario-analysts are coming out of the woodwork with generalities that don't play out.

Big Meks in Rollawagons stuffed with Boyz are your best bet. It's not a hard counter, but it should give you the edge needed to at least put up a proper fight.

A Battlewagon is a pretty good foil for:

Longfangs, due to AV14 front and 4+ cover
TWCav, due to S10 insta-deathing tank shocks against Ld8
Razorback spam, due to AV14 and 4+ cover again, as well as the ability to crush vehicles in the movement phase

Try 4+ Rollawagons with Snikrot support and Deffkoptas, as has already been mentioned. The advantage is this is also a general all-comers type list. The Green Tide Gunline was popular about 18 months ago (well, not popular, but viable), however the advent of Tcav deathstars, FNP assault troops, and a resurgence in popularity of walking Terminators (SW and DW) really cut down its potential.

Mike Noble wrote:If you try to assault SW with Orks, it won't go well. You have to shoot them.

If someone is using max Long Fangs with TWC and Razorback GH, then really the only thing you can do is take an equally spammy list and fight it out.

Like 30 Lootas, 9 Kannons, 9 Warbuggies, and then the rest in Shoota Boys, or Warbikes and Wazzdakka for some extra speed.

I think that a properly built Wazdakka list can do some damage to Wolves. You can outrun TWC most of the timje, so as long as you load up on fire support units like I just mentioned, I think you'll be fine.

Of course, this style of Ork list is not something everyone can do, or maybe even wants to, I'm just saying, if your opponent is using the very best units out of SW, then your best bet to win is to do the same thing with your own. SW aren't good because of LF and TWC, there good because people spam those units relentlessly.

Thanks again all for the tips. will try a shooty list next. interesting that there is the suggestion to take kill cannons - most tips i've seen tell me to avoid them.

I love the advice in this thread, considering my the units I "spam" are dreads, speeders and razorbacks, not TWC and long fangs

How about some tactical advice on how to get into a headbutting match you can win? That might actually be useful

Lootas chew up the Razorbacks and then the Dreadnoughts. The Killkannons on the Battlewagons and Boyz shoot up anything that spills out. Boyz can handle Speeders with Shootas and Rokkits.

Nurglitch wrote:Lootas chew up the Razorbacks and then the Dreadnoughts. The Killkannons on the Battlewagons and Boyz shoot up anything that spills out. Boyz can handle Speeders with Shootas and Rokkits.

The boys seem to have trouble getting in range of the speeders. And Generally the hunters don't mind getting in a pissing contest with da boyz. Some advice on trying to mitigate the pain you receive in the enemies turn and some advice on squeezing the most amount of pain out of your units would be good.

I'm pretty sure that you don't want to take anything foot slogging when it comes to orks when they are fighting space wolves.

You need to mech up and try not to take killa kanz when doing so.

Jihallah:

I think I already pointed out holding your Shoota boyz at that 13"-18" range from Grey Hunters to mitigate the 'pain' of Grey Hunters "getting in a pissing contest with da boyz". You can expect four Grey Hunter casualties with all 30 Orks opening fire. It's not unreasonable to expect two Grey Hunters killed per turn by twelve Shoota Boyz per unit including 3 Rokkit Launchas. That's out of six wounds that need saving per turn, which can be rough for six-strong complex units of Space Wolves.

So why twelve? The Boyz unit can have a footprint of two ranks fully spaced within the 5" sweet spot, and six boyz in each rank at full spread gives you the ability to shoot at targets up to 32" apart with a footprint of 14". Since they're armed with Assault weapons, they can adjust to stay beyond charge range of the Grey Hunters. And, of course, the more casualties you can inflict on the Space Wolves, the fewer that they can inflict on you.

Nurglitch wrote:Jihallah:

I think I already pointed out holding your Shoota boyz at that 13"-18" range from Grey Hunters to mitigate the 'pain' of Grey Hunters "getting in a pissing contest with da boyz". You can expect four Grey Hunter casualties with all 30 Orks opening fire. It's not unreasonable to expect two Grey Hunters killed per turn by twelve Shoota Boyz per unit including 3 Rokkit Launchas. That's out of six wounds that need saving per turn, which can be rough for six-strong complex units of Space Wolves.

So why twelve? The Boyz unit can have a footprint of two ranks fully spaced within the 5" sweet spot, and six boyz in each rank at full spread gives you the ability to shoot at targets up to 32" apart with a footprint of 14". Since they're armed with Assault weapons, they can adjust to stay beyond charge range of the Grey Hunters. And, of course, the more casualties you can inflict on the Space Wolves, the fewer that they can inflict on you.

All of which is made irrelevant by 5 Tcav charging 19 inches to crush them in CC... Please leave out the silly unit-by-unit meta analysis. He's fighting a list, not debating whether GH or Boyz are the superior troop choice.

sourclams:

Jihallah specifically excluded Thunderwolves from the units on his list...

Jihallah wrote:I love the advice in this thread, considering my the units I "spam" are dreads, speeders and razorbacks, not TWC and long fangs

Indeed, he asked for specific tactical advice:

Jihallah wrote:How about some tactical advice on how to get into a headbutting match you can win? That might actually be useful

After all, the headbutting match will be between Ork Boyz and Grey Hunters, specifically units of six mounted in Razorbacks. Maintaining that 13"-18" range is how Shoota Boyz win a headbutting match with the dismounted Grey Hunters. There isn't much change for dealing with Thunderwolves, except you let them charge in, demolish a screening unit, and then shoot them up with your entire army since they've decided to take the bait and charge into your kill-zone. Wait, why would they do that? Because any unit they could charge with Thunderwolves will be the bait: they're going to charge something, so your units need to space out only enough to castle up so it can shoot where any of its units may be demolished on the charge. Grots are handy for this: They can absorb a charge and evaporate so that they don't get in the way of the counter-attack.

Jihallah wrote:I love the advice in this thread, considering my the units I "spam" are dreads, speeders and razorbacks, not TWC and long fangs

If his list consisted of a big mek with a KFF, multiple battlewagons, and then he supported that with lootas, buggies, or deffkoptas... then his generalship versus yours would be the determinant in the game.

Lets look at it. The battlewagons under KFF are EXTREMELY difficult for you to kill from the front. Your razorbacks may only move 6" and fire, and if your razorbacks are consistently wrecking armor 14 under cover save, you are just experiencing an extremely hot streak. it won't last. So what do you do to kill battlewagons. you use your speeders. Lootas deployed on either side of the battlewagon clump will do an excellent job of knocking those speeders down, with most standard probability sets, the lootas knock down your speeders before your speeders open up armor 12 in cover. What else might you do? You might be tempted to spread your razorbacks wide so that you can move up a little bit and shoot side armor while he closes. Well, at this location, if the lootas don't get you, the outflanking deffkoptas will. Strength 8 shot into rear armor followed by buzzsaw needing 4s to hit.

The number of grey huntes that can fit in a razorback do NOT beat the number of boys that can fit in a wagon in CC. Unless of course he didn't take a power klaw nob. The don't shoot better, and they don't fight better. Power klaw nobs don't mind fighting armor 12 dreadnoughts either, especially when they are surrounded by 19 more boys. And its more likely that your dreads will be a pancake under the deffrolla anyway.

Before anything else. Make sure to read page 88 thoroughly, and ensure that the appropriate amount of LOS blocking terrain is on the table. LOS block does not mean, some trees. It means 3" tall at least and 6-8" wide, no doors no windows. Two square feet of LOS blocking terrain should be on the table, and it should be towards the middle of the table. After that has been confirmed, try a list like this OP.

Big Mek KFF

5x lootas
5x lootas
3x nobs 3x kombi-skorchas in battlewagon with deffrolla

20x boys nob power klaw bosspole
20x boys nob power klaw bosspole
10x gretchin 1x runtherd

1x deffkopta twin linked rokkits buzzsaw
1x deffkopta twin linked rokkits buzzsaw
1x deffkopta twin linked rokkits buzzsaw

battlewagon deffrolla
battlewagon deffrolla
battlewagon deffrolla


I'm not sure how much that is... or more importantly, what size game you play... but an army that includes those units is a fair and balanced one... not 'keyed' to beat space wolves. it has all the tools to beat the type of list Jihallah is running. Not 100% of the time, but you should be able to win plenty. Make sure there is enough terrain, make sure you always remember what the objective of the mission is, and practice.

I'm still not sold on deff kopta's, but the rest of the list suggestions that shep is making can and will make a solid core to any ork army.

I would up the loota count considerably though and I would take shoota boys.

Deffkoptas are for when you do win 1st turn, scout move + 18" assault means you're auto hitting and should get at least 1 penetrating hit, probably 2, on most rear-AV10. Really shakes up the parking lot.

Good all-comers Shep.

Or you could outflank them and get some shots in when you really need them

Nurglitch wrote:Jihallah:

I think I already pointed out holding your Shoota boyz at that 13"-18" range from Grey Hunters to mitigate the 'pain' of Grey Hunters "getting in a pissing contest with da boyz". You can expect four Grey Hunter casualties with all 30 Orks opening fire. It's not unreasonable to expect two Grey Hunters killed per turn by twelve Shoota Boyz per unit including 3 Rokkit Launchas. That's out of six wounds that need saving per turn, which can be rough for six-strong complex units of Space Wolves.

So why twelve? The Boyz unit can have a footprint of two ranks fully spaced within the 5" sweet spot, and six boyz in each rank at full spread gives you the ability to shoot at targets up to 32" apart with a footprint of 14". Since they're armed with Assault weapons, they can adjust to stay beyond charge range of the Grey Hunters. And, of course, the more casualties you can inflict on the Space Wolves, the fewer that they can inflict on you.

Too bad we don't play on a board with no terrain so he can do that. What about going through a chokepoint? Orks+funnel effect = bad.
It's all good to say "lootaz eat razorbacks/rhinos, shoota boyz in numbers chew up the marines", but when i deploy my armour out of LoS of the lootaz, then block their los after moving with a drop pod, what are you going to do to my transports? Deffkopta them, well maybe one before the deffkoptaz die? 30 shoota boyz might be able to klaw/rokkit them, but i reckon i can frag them quicker than they can me with typhoons/longfangs, or disembark 2-3 razorbacks and unload once they've been whittled down a bit. If I can't deploy in such a fashion - I'm going to drop a dread on the lootaz, probably another in the area too. So enjoy the target saturation my Dirtypete- you need your lootaz to fire at my transports. If they do for one turn, they're gonna get dread'ed, unless you do something about it. Dirtypete doesn't need fish, he needs to learn how to fish. Stop giving him fish.


See, the guy we bought the ork army off, he had some nasty cunnin' on the placement of his trukks. He was a good judge of distance, and some of his best games was where I thought i knew where his trukks would go and they would split off from the KFF and away into another unit i was not expecting to be charged. When you're waiting for the charge going "this mobs going here, this mobs going here, this mobs going here... I got this" and they start moving in other directions, towards your other units, is a "oh bugger" moment"

Shep wrote:

Jihallah wrote:I love the advice in this thread, considering my the units I "spam" are dreads, speeders and razorbacks, not TWC and long fangs

If his list consisted of a big mek with a KFF, multiple battlewagons, and then he supported that with lootas, buggies, or deffkoptas... then his generalship versus yours would be the determinant in the game.

Lets look at it. The battlewagons under KFF are EXTREMELY difficult for you to kill from the front. Your razorbacks may only move 6" and fire, and if your razorbacks are consistently wrecking armor 14 under cover save, you are just experiencing an extremely hot streak. it won't last. So what do you do to kill battlewagons. you use your speeders. Lootas deployed on either side of the battlewagon clump will do an excellent job of knocking those speeders down, with most standard probability sets, the lootas knock down your speeders before your speeders open up armor 12 in cover. What else might you do? You might be tempted to spread your razorbacks wide so that you can move up a little bit and shoot side armor while he closes. Well, at this location, if the lootas don't get you, the outflanking deffkoptas will. Strength 8 shot into rear armor followed by buzzsaw needing 4s to hit.

I'm bolding the bit I think is important. My first thought when i saw "The battlewagons under KFF are EXTREMELY difficult for you to kill from the front. Your razorbacks may only move 6" and fire..." I was like "Do you think I'm on crack or something?". Target priority is so important - The battlewagon full'o'boys is scary as , so stopping what stops it is vital.

Shep wrote:The number of grey huntes that can fit in a razorback do NOT beat the number of boys that can fit in a wagon in CC. Unless of course he didn't take a power klaw nob. The don't shoot better, and they don't fight better. Power klaw nobs don't mind fighting armor 12 dreadnoughts either, especially when they are surrounded by 19 more boys. And its more likely that your dreads will be a pancake under the deffrolla anyway.

Before anything else. Make sure to read page 88 thoroughly, and ensure that the appropriate amount of LOS blocking terrain is on the table. LOS block does not mean, some trees. It means 3" tall at least and 6-8" wide, no doors no windows. Two square feet of LOS blocking terrain should be on the table, and it should be towards the middle of the table.

PK Nobs might not mind fighting AV12 dreads, but Dreads don't mind fighting the boys too much either. Most CC's end either via a long slog (DCCW gets destroyed, then whittled down over time) or the boys breaking. Although the 19 strong mob has more success that the 11 strong trukk mob, but they still tend to a) lose a fair few boyz and b) sit there with 19 boyz knocking on a dreadnought shell they can't hurt.

And as far as terrain goes, we probably use a little too much to be honest. Love the implication though

Shep wrote:I'm not sure how much that is... or more importantly, what size game you play... but an army that includes those units is a fair and balanced one... not 'keyed' to beat space wolves. it has all the tools to beat the type of list Jihallah is running. Not 100% of the time, but you should be able to win plenty. Make sure there is enough terrain, make sure you always remember what the objective of the mission is, and practice.

1250-2000, generally 1500-1850.

sourclams wrote:Deffkoptas are for when you do win 1st turn, scout move + 18" assault means you're auto hitting and should get at least 1 penetrating hit, probably 2, on most rear-AV10. Really shakes up the parking lot.

Good all-comers Shep.

Too right. Deffkoptas are so versatile, love 'em

So, how about a batrep with pics of your next game so we can all armchair quarterback it with more relevance.

This weekend is probably the next brattle. I just got to remember two things, the camera and taking pictures.

-edit- and the third thing, seplling

I've had a lot of practise fighting non-WAAC SW (i play the guy weekly).

I've found that a Kustom Force Field will annoy the bejollies out of him, especially if it's riding inside a battlewagon with a bunch of burnas..

I've found the Shokk Attack Gun to be effective vs Long Fangs (as it has a huge range and AP 2) IF you can get it to hit.

Killakanz are pretty good,especially with KFF support.

Boomgun looted wagons and Killkannon battlewagons ruin any marine's day..

Spacewolves are assault puppies. They work best in close.
Either let them get that close, then open up with burnas, shoota boyz and other short range dakka, THEN charge the reduced squads (all ork guns (bar a few) are assault, whereas boltguns are rapid-fire) OR mug him from range with rokkit spam, lootas and Big Gunz.

Basically you want to play to your strengths without letting his strengths get the limelight. It's hard to do, as orks are a low I assualt army, and the latest Marine codexes have stuff that gets to massacre you well before you get to swing, but shooting enough guns will take anything down. Also orks are cheap, pointwise, so you should be able to swamp his more expensive units, or at least bog them down until a 4 CCW deff dredd can get there...

I agree, lots of tactics going on in this thread, would love to see these two armies go at it

Ascalam wrote:I've had a lot of practise fighting non-WAAC SW (i play the guy weekly).

I've found that a Kustom Force Field will annoy the bejollies out of him, especially if it's riding inside a battlewagon with a bunch of burnas..

I've found the Shokk Attack Gun to be effective vs Long Fangs (as it has a huge range and AP 2) IF you can get it to hit.

Killakanz are pretty good,especially with KFF support.

Boomgun looted wagons and Killkannon battlewagons ruin any marine's day..

Spacewolves are assault puppies. They work best in close.
Either let them get that close, then open up with burnas, shoota boyz and other short range dakka, THEN charge the reduced squads (all ork guns (bar a few) are assault, whereas boltguns are rapid-fire) OR mug him from range with rokkit spam, lootas and Big Gunz.

Basically you want to play to your strengths without letting his strengths get the limelight. It's hard to do, as orks are a low I assualt army, and the latest Marine codexes have stuff that gets to massacre you well before you get to swing, but shooting enough guns will take anything down. Also orks are cheap, pointwise, so you should be able to swamp his more expensive units, or at least bog them down until a 4 CCW deff dredd can get there...

I don't know about how good a boomgun wagon is... it takes a valuable HS slot that could be taken by a battlewagon, which is tougher and can get a deffrolla and transport 20 boyz. Same with the Big guns- really not scary, AND they take a valuable slot. I think the 6 or so games big guns were used, they killed a marine and shook a rhino. Whoo!

Ascalam wrote:I've had a lot of practise fighting non-WAAC SW (i play the guy weekly).

I've found that a Kustom Force Field will annoy the bejollies out of him, especially if it's riding inside a battlewagon with a bunch of burnas..

I've found the Shokk Attack Gun to be effective vs Long Fangs (as it has a huge range and AP 2) IF you can get it to hit.

Killakanz are pretty good,especially with KFF support.

Boomgun looted wagons and Killkannon battlewagons ruin any marine's day..

Spacewolves are assault puppies. They work best in close.
Either let them get that close, then open up with burnas, shoota boyz and other short range dakka, THEN charge the reduced squads (all ork guns (bar a few) are assault, whereas boltguns are rapid-fire) OR mug him from range with rokkit spam, lootas and Big Gunz.

Basically you want to play to your strengths without letting his strengths get the limelight. It's hard to do, as orks are a low I assualt army, and the latest Marine codexes have stuff that gets to massacre you well before you get to swing, but shooting enough guns will take anything down. Also orks are cheap, pointwise, so you should be able to swamp his more expensive units, or at least bog them down until a 4 CCW deff dredd can get there...

Just a few things I disagree with.

Ork players will need to be more careful with killakans after what I found out about murderous hurricane.

Space wolves are not an assault army but a counter assault army. They would still much rather shoot it out with you. They just don't worry to much about getting assaulted.

Orks will never, ever outshoot space wolves. Lootas give them a chance in certain areas, but that's it.

Something I agree with.

KFF is one of the best defensive war gear options for vehicles ever invented.

Jihallah wrote:Too bad we don't play on a board with no terrain so he can do that. What about going through a chokepoint? Orks+funnel effect = bad.

That's why I'm estimating only twelve can shoot at any one time.

Jihallah wrote:It's all good to say "lootaz eat razorbacks/rhinos, shoota boyz in numbers chew up the marines", but when i deploy my armour out of LoS of the lootaz, then block their los after moving with a drop pod, what are you going to do to my transports?

Destroy the Drop Pod, opening line of sight to the Rhino/Razorback, and then destroy the Rhino/Razorback. Duh. You're just feeding me targets.

Good luck locking my boyz down with Dreadnoughts, because they don't need to get within 12" of a Dreadnought. That's the whole point of the Shoota. Thank you for providing another AV12- vehicle for my Lootas to frag though.

Warhammer is all about inter-meshing your fire plan with the exact positioning of your models on the board. Did you just get the memo?

A unit of Autocannons (yeah, not exactly, but the same reliability), on the other hand, is how anti-mechanization works best in 5th edition.