I've seen several threads recently about people talking about punching/kicking/shoryukening someone at their local game store, usually over purposefully broken miniatures (and almost always a hypothetical situation for them). There's been some "debate" (I use the term loosely) about what's legal, why you can get away with it, etc.
I'd like to lay out a few reasons why you should never assault someone, and only use physical violence as a last resort (especially in these situations).
1. You're almost certainly going to be vulnerable to legal trouble, both criminal and civil. Civil cases (where the other party tries to sue you) are just no fun, and NOT worth the hassle (and potential monetary loss). Criminal cases can really suck, and you could wind up with a permanent mark on your record. The police won't care so much about the damaged property as they will about the fact that you just assaulted someone. Why risk it?
2. You'll probably look like a douchebag. Unless it's self defense, using violence to solve a problem means that you've either got self-control problems or some growing up to do.
3. People who are really good at fighting don't always look the part. The guy you just punched? If he's already upset, and a really good fighter, you could be in for a world-class ass-whoopin'.
4. You could be banned from that game store. Is that worth a some broken models? (In my case, definitely not!)
5. You're MUCH less likely to ever be able to help the other guy see the error of his ways. The best resolution of this kind of situation is where the guy who breaks your models does all he can to make it up to you; if you deck him, chances are that he'll never make that effort.
So please please please don't assault anyone, and don't advocate it here. Thank you.
If someone purposely breaks my models, I'm going to intimidate them into replacing them. But, I'm a pretty scary guy when I want to be. Who needs to resort to violence when you can just make them THINK you're going to resort to it?
Then again, the only person who has broken my models has been me and my clumsiness...
If somebody accidentally breaks my stuff I'll give them grief for it, but it's a mistake and I'm not gonna hold a grudge. If somebody maliciously breaks my stuff, whether it's Warhammer models or not, I'm going to do my best to stop them.
If someone accidentally damaged my property,I would more than likely be satisfied with compensation of some sort.
But if an individual willfully destroyed something of mine out of malice...then they damn well had better be able to fight.
I think you could just as easily turn this around and say "Don't want to get your head thumped? Don't stomp someone's minis!"
FITZZ wrote: If someone accidentally damaged my property,I would more than likely be satisfied with compensation of some sort.
But if an individual willfully destroyed something of mine out of malice...then they damn well had better be able to fight.
This pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject.
d-usa wrote:But what I would do should not be taken as legal advice regarding what you should do.
This is also key. I don't care what other people do, nor would I give advice like this to people I don't even know. I speak only for myself.
Now if someone purposly breaks any of my mini's, we'll then they have bought that mini and will expect the cash or a replacement ASAP!
Luckily, this has yet to happen & hope it never will.
Lorek wrote:I've seen several threads recently about people talking about shoryukening someone.
Nice
Yeah, it's never worth fighting back, only in extreme self-defense. If someone did it on purpose, I would demand they pay for it, if they don't...they probably will get banned either way.
Great post, and if all else fails in motivating people to hear this, imho this has to suffice:
Lorek wrote:5. You're MUCH less likely to ever be able to help the other guy see the error of his ways. The best resolution of this kind of situation is where the guy who breaks your models does all he can to make it up to you; if you deck him, chances are that he'll never make that effort.
This stuff is expensive. If you don't blow a gasket, and take other measures (usually everyone around will be rushing to help if there is someone smashing another person's models, for instance, and violence on your part isn't needed to stop it quickly) he will be in the position where he has to pay for the stuff he just broke. I've even seen people post that the store paid for their stuff after immediately escorting the other person out.
In the end, whether you feel like tying the guy's tongue in a knot or not, violence isn't going to get you the best result... and it's going to be much better in the end to keep your cool, at least as much as is possible in such a drastic situation.
Feth! and what can be done if the supposed one are dropping the minis to your face? it didn't happened to myself, but i have been present in few cases...
I tell people I have a simple policy for people touching my stuff.
You break a model, I break one of your bones. There are 206 bones in the human body. I have more than that in models.
If I get the tone right, then they can't tell if I'm kidding or not. Mostly they think I'm kidding (those that don't just don't touch my stuff) - and I've never had to call their bluff yet.
I don't play in stores though. I prefer room to breathe (and air to breathe, not gamer funk).
I've seen a few fights in my life, I don't think I've ever seen one which has ended up in a civil court. But that's possibly just because I've always lived in the north of England and not the sue culture of the united states. I've never been in this situation so I don't know what I'll do. I have hit out at someone who grabbed my brothers throat once but he needed to be taught not to pick on people smaller than him (to be honest my brother had apparently slept with the guys girlfriend but meh, family comes before right and wrong). It's true to say the better man refrains from being physical but all to often in those situations I've seen the perpetrator get away with it.
If is an accident, I am usually cool with just an apology and I will move on (It is something that I can replace so no big deal)
this has happened only once.
If the destruction is on purpose, I am going to demand that my property be replaced or else we are going to have problems. Luckily this has not had to occur as where I game no one touches anyone elses minis or dice without permission first.
Also you do not fight in a store, you step outside (preferably a back alley lol) to have your "discussions".
If someone broke my models on purpose- my lovingly hand-painted, custom converted, insanely expensive little model- I would wreck their world. Right there in the middle of the store. I would curb stomp them into a box of Pokemon cards and then pile drive them into a discount shelf of old Pirates of the Crimson Coast ships.
If there was one close by, sure. I'd pretty much want to get as creative as possible. I am a gamer at heart so even when delivering a savage beating of pure nerd justice I'd like to include as much gaming material as possible.
OP is still relevant. I am sure my actions would fit in catagories 2. and 4. =)
Fortunately we dont have any douchebags at thFLGS that would even consider breaking someones stuff.
In fact the guys are pretty cordial about asking to pick up a model to look and being pretty gentle.
Yeah, on occasion an accident will happen but everyone is pretty cool about it (apologies...accepted...offer to fix/replace...usually declined...go out for dinner/beer and laugh over it).
FITZZ, MonsterRain, Darthbob, chromedog, NobleSeven, (etc.) you appear to be missing the point of this thread.
People like to joke about doing violence to a (usually hypothetical) person who breaks their toys. Some other folks talk seriously about doing so, either out of a lack of perspective, a misguided attempt to appear macho in front of fellow gamers, or perhaps a hormonal imbalance due to their being 15 years old.
This thread is not about people venting their misguided aggression or repressed territorial instincts. It's not a chance for people to look tough in front of your fellow nerds.
It's Lorek talking seriously for a minute and reminding all the impressionable kids on Dakka that violence over toy soldiers is absurd. It's always a dumb idea. As Asimov so well reminded us: "violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
If you're an adult and you do it, something is wrong with you. If you're a kid and you do it, you're not a tough guy- you're hormonally imbalanced and you look like a dumb kid. None of the adults are impressed and when you look back on the incident later you're going to be embarassed; maybe worse, if someone got genuinely injured, and suffered real repercussions and/or you wound up subject to prosecution yourself.
Mannahnin wrote:It's Lorek talking seriously for a minute and reminding all the impressionable kids on Dakka that violence over toy soldiers is absurd. It's always a dumb idea. As Asimov so well reminded us: "violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
I'm sure that would be a great comfort to someone looking at a lovingly painted Valkyrie with a boot-print on its crushed hull. Either way, I doubt this is anything that the vast majority of gamers will have to deal with. I've only seen one model broken in anger, and that was by that particular model's owner.
So is the number of people who would physically attempt to stop someone from destroying their property (toy soldiers or otherwise) actually a minority? I can't imagine that it is... I'm pretty sure if you asked the average person on the street they'd probably not let someone break something of theirs if they could help it.
Monster Rain wrote:So is the number of people who would physically attempt to stop someone from destroying their property (toy soldiers or otherwise) actually a minority? I can't imagine that it is... I'm pretty sure if you asked the average person on the street they'd probably not let someone break something of theirs if they could help it.
There is a world of difference between stopping someone from manhandling your minis, and starting a fight over it.
'Taking it outside' stops being a reasonable response to anything around about the time that 'PG' stops being a limiting factor in what you can watch on television.
Beating on someone with behavioural issues might make you feel better if you have yet to grow out of your primary school uniform, but it doesn't actually do anything constructive about their problems. And it doesn't make you look like the bigger man. It just makes you look like someone who is so wound up about their toy soldiers that they would beat on someone with behavioural issues rather than try to find a grown-up way of dealing with the situation.
Monster Rain wrote:So is the number of people who would physically attempt to stop someone from destroying their property (toy soldiers or otherwise) actually a minority? I can't imagine that it is... I'm pretty sure if you asked the average person on the street they'd probably not let someone break something of theirs if they could help it.
There is a world of difference between stopping someone from manhandling your minis, and starting a fight over it.
Are we going to argue the semantics as to whether or not "physically preventing someone from destroying your property" is a "fight?"
insaniak wrote:'Taking it outside' stops being a reasonable response to anything around about the time that 'PG' stops being a limiting factor in what you can watch on television.
I don't think anyone suggested it.
insaniak wrote:Beating on someone with behavioural issues might make you feel better if you have yet to grow out of your primary school uniform, but it doesn't actually do anything constructive about their problems. And it doesn't make you look like the bigger man. It just makes you look like someone who is so wound up about their toy soldiers that they would beat on someone with behavioural issues rather than try to find a grown-up way of dealing with the situation.
So now the person who is having their theoretical property damaged is now a macho brute beating up on someone who theoretically has behavioral issues. Maybe they're homeless, too? Lost their job in the Enron collapse and caught their wife banging their brother. This imaginary model-breaker has had a pretty rough few years.
No one is saying it makes them the bigger man or not. Half of the people aren't serious and the other half are just saying they'd stop someone from breaking their stuff. It's you who's making it into a bigger deal than it is.
Can I just say that I'm not saying that I'd hunt someone down in the dead of night with a sack of hot rivets? I'm saying if I was in an argument or similar with someone and they tried to smash my models, I'd stop them.
To clarify,I'm not attempting to posture for anyone's benefit,nor am I saying what I would or wouldn't do is a proper response to a given situation.
I do however take issue with it being implied that somehow protecting ones property through physical confrontation somehow equates to being "Incompetent"
The fact that I wouldn't tolerate such disrespect of something I've laboured over is my affair...not a flag I'm waving for the community to follow.
Mannahnin wrote:It's Lorek talking seriously for a minute and reminding all the impressionable kids on Dakka that violence over toy soldiers is absurd. It's always a dumb idea. As Asimov so well reminded us: "violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
I'm sure that would be a great comfort to someone looking at a lovingly painted Valkyrie with a boot-print on its crushed hull. Either way, I doubt this is anything that the vast majority of gamers will have to deal with. I've only seen one model broken in anger, and that was by that particular model's owner.
As you say, the issue is practically nonexistent. I'd be very upset if one of my lovingly-painted models was destroyed, but to be honest, most damage one's likely to see from an accidental or even deliberate breakage is not impossible to repair.
OTOH, one friend of mine threw his baseball cap like a frisbee at another friend of mine once, caught him in the eye with the bill, and inadvertently did permanent damage to the guy's retina. Now, I don't conclude from this that baseball caps are deadly weapons, but I do conclude that doing violence unto people can have unexpectedly severe consequences regardless of how upset someone was over their toy model, or of whether they inteded to do any permanent injury. So it's utterly stupid to start violence over toys.
Monster Rain wrote:So is the number of people who would physically attempt to stop someone from destroying their property (toy soldiers or otherwise) actually a minority? I can't imagine that it is... I'm pretty sure if you asked the average person on the street they'd probably not let someone break something of theirs if they could help it.
Well, if you notice, I didn't call out the guys who were nonspecific about how they'd prevent said destruction and didn't talk about starting a fight. If you want to grab your stuff or try to interpose yourself without hitting someone, that's a different matter from assault.
Monster Rain wrote:Are we going to argue the semantics as to whether or not "physically preventing someone from destroying your property" is a "fight?"
I wouldn't have thought there would be any need to do so, no.
I don't think anyone suggested it.
You might want to have another look back up the thread, then
insaniak wrote:So now the person who is having their theoretical property damaged is now a macho brute beating up on someone who theoretically has behavioral issues. Maybe they're homeless, too? Lost their job in the Enron collapse and caught their wife banging their brother. This imaginary model-breaker has had a pretty rough few years.
If anyone past the age of about 10 thinks that breaking your models is an appropriate thing to do, whatever the motivation, then yes, they have behavioural issues. And the person who chooses to respond to that with violence is not exactly proving themselves to be the pinnacle of social adjustment, either.
No one is saying it makes them the bigger man or not. Half of the people aren't serious and the other half are just saying they'd stop someone from breaking their stuff. It's you who's making it into a bigger deal than it is.
Threatening someone with violence is always a big deal.
FITZZ wrote: To clarify,I'm not attempting to posture for anyone's benefit,nor am I saying what I would or wouldn't do is a proper response to a given situation.
Okay, maybe so in your case, but it's still a bad example to set for the kids. I think Lorek's point was that folks make this comments off hand a lot, and they aren't challenged, and maybe it's worth for once pointing out "BTW, it's not actually a good idea".
FITZZ wrote: I do however take issue with it being implied that somehow protecting ones property through physical confrontation somehow equates to being "Incompetent".
It is my considered opinion that choosing to do violence to another human being over toy soldiers specifically would be a bad life choice and a demonstration of poor judgment. I can totally sympathize with it, and I'd have to say I'd try to grab my stuff out of nutjob or idiot kid's hands and/or interpose my body. But I wouldn't take a swing at him.
FITZZ wrote: To clarify,I'm not attempting to posture for anyone's benefit,nor am I saying what I would or wouldn't do is a proper response to a given situation.
I do however take issue with it being implied that somehow protecting ones property through physical confrontation somehow equates to being "Incompetent"
I think you're just being more honest. I don't think even the most cynical among us would just stand there feeling superior as someone destroyed an expensive and time-consuming article of their property.
Mannahnin wrote:Well, if you notice, I didn't call out the guys who were nonspecific about how they'd prevent said destruction and didn't talk about starting a fight. If you want to grab your stuff or try to interpose yourself without hitting someone, that's a different matter from assault.
I'm pretty sure that other than a bit of hyperbole for entertainment's sake that's all anyone was really saying. Though once that started it would be a short trip to punches if it didn't end right away...
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insaniak wrote:If anyone past the age of about 10 thinks that breaking your models is an appropriate thing to do, whatever the motivation, then yes, they have behavioural issues.
Gee whiz, I thought that some people are just donkey-caves.
insaniak wrote:Threatening someone with violence is always a big deal.
Who was threatened, exactly?
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insaniak wrote:
I don't think anyone suggested it.
You might want to have another look back up the thread, then
FITZZ wrote: To clarify,I'm not attempting to posture for anyone's benefit,nor am I saying what I would or wouldn't do is a proper response to a given situation.
Okay, maybe so in your case, but it's still a bad example to set for the kids. I think Lorek's point was that folks make this comments off hand a lot, and they aren't challenged, and maybe it's worth for once pointing out "BTW, it's not actually a good idea".
FITZZ wrote: I do however take issue with it being implied that somehow protecting ones property through physical confrontation somehow equates to being "Incompetent".
It is my considered opinion that choosing to do violence to another human being over toy soldiers specifically would be a bad life choice and a demonstration of poor judgment. I can totally sympathize with it, and I'd have to say I'd try to grab my stuff out of nutjob or idiot kid's hands and/or interpose my body. But I wouldn't take a swing at him.
Fair enough...and I do agree that seeking a "non confrontational" solution to ANY situation is always preferable.
If someone was in your house, looked you right in the eyes, then drove a baseball bat through your flat screen on purpose- you'd calmly and diplomatically discuss the matter with them?
If a grown man looked me in the eyes and destroyed any thing else that was valuable to me (or hurt anybody I cared for) just out of spite- yeah, chances are there might be some physical retribution unless they made some real efforts to make things right. It might not be right there in the store, but if there wasn't clear resolution- there are always dark alleys.
Just because it is 2011 and we are all enlightened humans at the pinnacle of our civility doesn't mean that some people don't just need a good old fashioned butt kicking.
I would recommend going back and reading the first post again.
The point of this thread, as Mannahnin also just explained, was that people choose to make threats of violence over people manhandling their miniatures, and that maybe those people should take a step back and reconsider whether that's really appropriate behaviour.
NobleSeven wrote:If someone was in your house, looked you right in the eyes, then drove a baseball bat through your flat screen on purpose- you'd calmly and diplomatically discuss the matter with them?
I think in this instance the Police would be a reasonable option.
NobleSeven wrote:If a grown man looked me in the eyes and destroyed any thing else that was valuable to me (or hurt anybody I cared for) just out of spite- yeah, chances are there might be some physical retribution. It might not be right there in the store, but if there wasn't clear resolution- there are always dark alleys.
See now, this is where it gets hard to defend.
NobleSeven wrote:Just because it is 2011 and we are all enlightened humans at the pinnacle of our civility doesn't mean that some people don't just need a good old fashioned butt kicking.
I think that part of the problem is automatically assuming that someone is developmentally disabled if they're behaving this way. I don't subscribe to that particular belief.
insaniak wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:Who was threatened, exactly?
I would recommend going back and reading the first post again.
Yeah, I did.
I still don't know who the affronted party is.
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FITZZ wrote: Fair enough...and I do agree that seeking a "non confrontational" solution to ANY situation is always preferable.
Someone entering your home and destroying your property in a threatening manner is a different proposition all together than some one maliciously destroying one of your minis in a shop.
The end results are likely to be very different.
An accident is an accident, but when hundreds of dollars of damage is willfully and deliberately done to your property, then you take action.
In my area of the US you call the local law enforcement, file a police report even going as far as Citizen's Arrest if you have too.
Willful Destruction of one's personal property is something that is not to be downplayed or tolerated.
I do not care if it is a kid/teen or not. If the parent does not teach that child the proper ways of respecting others and their property then the parents are as fault as they are responsible for that teen/child. They will be dealt with in a professional and legal manner.
To put it bluntly, I'm going to get my metaphorically "Pound of Flesh" for the destruction of my personal property.
Monster Rain wrote:I think that part of the problem is automatically assuming that someone is developmentally disabled if they're behaving this way. I don't subscribe to that particular belief.
I wasn't automatically assuming that anyone who behaves inappropriately is 'developmentally disabled'... I just said that they clearly have behavioural issues. The society we live in has rules. In what I would suspect is the vast majority of cases for Dakka users, that society includes rules against inflicting violence on those around us. If someone knows about those rules and chooses to break them anyway, that's a behavioural issue.
Whether that behavioural issue is caused by Aspergers, Alien Brain Control, or just being a little messed up about right and wrong makes little difference. Responding with violence just reinforces that person's belief that violence is the answer to a given problem.
I think the punishment for the other guy (socially and so on) will be worse if you don't get physical, and you'll look better, and as the guys say, you'll be more likely to get a decent resolution.
When I was younger, I might have been so angry I'd have done something, but more likely, I'd have seethed, wanted to, not, and felt impotent and frustrated. Nowadays, I don't think I'd even want to- I'd be disgusted by the behaviour, but I think the end punishment for the person who did it would be worse overall if I was a complete gent about it, to highlight what a complete ass he was.
I've had more than one model broken by mistake, and I'm always fairly jovial about it, so I'm reasonably confident I could take a calm approach with an intentional breakage. My real strategy though would be to completely avoid playing with or associating with the sort of idiot who would do something like that.
insaniak wrote:Whether that behavioural issue is caused by Aspergers, Alien Brain Control, or just being a little messed up about right and wrong makes little difference. Responding with violence just reinforces that person's belief that violence is the answer to a given problem.
Right. Well, I suppose we can all agree that breaking the law is a stupid thing to do and violence generally isn't a healthy thing to participate in or advocate.
Sometimes violence IS the answer to a given problem. Not saying it is in the case of a broken mini but not everyone who defends themselves, their homes or their propety has developmental or behavioral issues.
This Citizens Arrest....intrigues me.
Clearly, it isn't the best choice to get in a fight over -stuff- Going through the law or using diplomacy generally wins the day. Still, sometimes you just want to uppercut the arrogant, cruel little jerks of this world.
So OP- yes. Fighting is bad.
We should trade our Models in for NERF- then they wouldn't be able to break them if they tried. =)
Da Boss wrote:My real strategy though would be to completely avoid playing with or associating with the sort of idiot who would do something like that.
NobleSeven wrote:If someone broke my models on purpose- my lovingly hand-painted, custom converted, insanely expensive little model- I would wreck their world. Right there in the middle of the store. I would curb stomp them into a box of Pokemon cards and then pile drive them into a discount shelf of old Pirates of the Crimson Coast ships.
Lets apply some logic to this. You've stated what you'd do to someone that breaks your models.
Now think about what I'm going to do to you if you break my store! I care about my store the way you care about your models. Plus my store supports my wife and kids.
Don't start a fight in anyones game store. You go from having the sympathy and support of the store, to being the problem, same as the other guy. You'd just end up getting banned along with the other guy, instead of him getting banned and me replacing your models.
Plus, the Pokemon kids would beat you up pretty bad for messing up the card rack.)
NobleSeven wrote:Sometimes violence IS the answer to a given problem. Not saying it is in the case of a broken mini but not everyone who defends themselves, their homes or their propety has developmental or behavioral issues.
Of course. But this thread isn't about that.
This thread is just a brief time out from our regularly-scheduled-programming of expressing our love for our toys to say "Hey, even though we love our toy soldiers, don't forget that they're still toy soldiers and that assaulting someone over them, as satisfying as it might be to contemplate, is almost guaranteed to turn out badly, and not be worth it in the end."
If some kid or some adult idiot breaks your stuff, they clearly have behavioral problems, and assaulting them isn't going to fix anything.
Yep. Sorry to offend. I knew MonsterRain was joking, because I know him, but this is also the thread of "seriously guys, I know it's fun to joke about, but let's pause for a second and recognize that it's a dumb idea."
Even joking about it is kind of inappropriate if you read Lorek's OP, unless maybe you plaster on a couple of dozen smiley's and add a disclaimer like "I would never do this!"
Mikhaila raised an excellent point too, that jumping the guy may have other serious repercussions too- what if you break a store display? Or knock him into a table and break someone else's models? How dumb would you feel then?
I think there was a bit of a miscommunication here, but obviously, this thread was trying to address the issue seriously. I like the nerd-rage comments as much as the next guy, but it can cross a line where it seeps into becoming a bit of reality. I've never seen this kind of situation, but I have seen people make these kinds of comments about what they'd do if someone touched their models (not even to the extreme above).
That's the problem... doing violence over our game of pretend violence is just plain off base.
mikhaila wrote:Don't start a fight in anyones game store. You go from having the sympathy and support of the store, to being the problem, same as the other guy. You'd just end up getting banned along with the other guy, instead of him getting banned and me replacing your models.
This is the important point that I thought, from a practical standpoint, people are missing. If you escalate things to a physical altercation between people, you are no longer in the right from the store's point of view, you're part of the problem.
Also to Monster Rain, I see where you're coming from, but I think if you step back and think about it, you'll see that this actually is an issue worth addressing in a serious way, and that assault (not just trying to stop the destruction of your models, but beating the person in response) is not even in the ballpark of an appropriate response in this circumstance.
I did not always have this view, and went along with the "Yeah, I'd totally wreck that guy!" viewpoint (peer pressure, even) but when you look at it in a serious way, that's just wrong. And people don't just say this about miniatures- I've even heard it (in person) about someone's dice being touched... again, this is just off base, and it's worth having a discussion about it in a serious way, I think.
Personally, I was having a bit of fun with the notion of people having an all out wrestling event in a gaming store over their models. The idea IS pretty comical.
But in all serious, I've never seen anyone fight in a gaming store, threaten to fight in a gaming store or even do something that remotely warrants a throw down in a gaming store- but if this is really a relevant issue then I concur with the wisdom of the OP.
Fighting is not the answer.
There is no need to assault them.
Chances are they have Counter Attack anyhow. =)
Hello,
I have had someone drop my lovingly painted "Huggsy" before and it was accident that came about from a neglectful parent not paying attenion to thier 7 year old who worked rather hard to get to the middle of a table to pick him up. The child dropped him about 3 feet when the mother looked for him, and the mother disregarded it as as not her concern. I was not pleased with this and upon picking him him up he was broken. I informed her of his cost, and stated that she needed to watch her child and until she could keep a eye on her kid, they were not allowed into the store (read permaban). Should this be done purposefully, it is simple, the person is removed from the store and the cops called about destruction of personal property, that said I am good friends with most of the officers here. Simply put let the cops take care of it, if someone has the kind of behavioral issues that would cause them to react in this manner, they need help. I personally am not qualified to give that help, however I will not allow for them to search for a doctor in the store, they need to leave.
RiTides wrote:Also to Monster Rain, I see where you're coming from, but I think if you step back and think about it, you'll see that this actually is an issue worth addressing in a serious way, and that assault (not just trying to stop the destruction of your models, but beating the person in response) is not even in the ballpark of an appropriate response in this circumstance.
I guess I just thought that the point was well addressed in the OP and people were just having a little fun with the subject matter.
I certainly didn't want to undermine Lorek.
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malfred wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
Yeah, I did.
I still don't know who the affronted party is.
There's a post about breaking a model I break a bone and at least one other one
about taking the discussion outside.
Right. That's actually my point. This is all hypothetical.
I just re-read the thread and found the bit about going outside. I apologize, insaniak!
This is just my own story, but I think it has relevance even if it isnt directly tied to miniatures
During school I participated in a Woodworks class, had some douchebag always ruin my work by either chipping it or ruining it in some way
Doing nothing didn't stop him, it only reinforced to him that he could get away with it
Going to the teachers doesn't help because they can't really do anything
You could argue that I could just redo it again, that the wood was replaceable and not worth much, but see the thing is I shouldn't have to.
If I had punched him and beat the crap out of him, he would have stopped, no questions about it
By thinking that violence was bad and doesn't produce good effects SOMETIMES( this is a point I highly stress)I gave this guy permission essentially to keep doing this crap to me over and over
He never stopped, he never learned
Some people have to have their asses handed to them on a platter, they don't learn otherwise
Now you could argue this isn't true and is entirely theoretical , but I was told that he and his friends tried to graffitti my house
Neighbours caught them, chased them down and beat the crap out of them
They never tried it again
If I had known what I do now, I wouldnt have turned the other cheek
It doesn't matter whats being harmed, sometimes violence is the best answer to solve a problem
Even if it is over a plastic toy
Asuron, what if you assaulted him to try to stop the bullying and wound up permanently injuring him or being permanently injured yourself? Would it be worth fighting if one of you was blinded in an eye, say? Or hit their head on a stair or a desk and cracked their skull?
Bearing in mind also that this thread is about someone breaking a person's toys, not about bullying. Bullying in school or another place where you can't simply walk away from the person is a difficult issue.
Saying that "some people have to have their asses handed to them on a platter, they don't learn otherwise" is just rationalizing violence, and admitting your own powerlessness. People who resort to violence in relation to day to day problems (not talking about war or crime here) are disturbed people, who are lacking essential skills at dealing with people. If you beat them, you are just teaching them that their broken and damaged worldview is CORRECT. You may prevent them from bullying you again, but you are encouraging them to do the same to others.
The truth is that you MIGHT put a stop to the bullying with physical violence. But you don't know that. You might make it worse. Or you might cause permanent damage to them or yourself.
What you definitely WON'T accomplish with violence is fixing the broken model. Or making your story or your criminal claim look at all credible to the police.
Asuron wrote:During school I participated in a Woodworks class, had some douchebag always ruin my work by either chipping it or ruining it in some way
Doing nothing didn't stop him, it only reinforced to him that he could get away with it
Going to the teachers doesn't help because they can't really do anything
Well of course doing nothing didn't help. There are a world of options between 'doing nothing' and 'beating the crap out of him' though.
If I had punched him and beat the crap out of him, he would have stopped, no questions about it
Not really. If you had started a fight over it, he might have stopped. Or he might have simply felt even more vindicated about whatever grudge it is that he has against you, and escalated things even further.
Or he might have won, in which case all you get out of it is a beating and possibly some time off school for the both of you.
It doesn't matter whats being harmed, sometimes violence is the best answer to solve a problem
It's sometimes an answer. It's sometimes the easiest answer. But the best answer? Not by a long shot. The 'best' answer is one that doesn't involve anyone getting hurt, and that results in whatever is causing the situation to actually be resolved, rather than just trying to impress on someone that he should stop what he's doing because you can hit harder than he can.
1) I am getting really annoyed at people trying to make this a case of people breaking toy soldiers. Frankly, to me it comes across the same way as saying "Boohoo, somebody broke your toy....". If property is being destroyed it does not matter what it is. I will take my Forgeworld dreadnought as an example again. I paid over $100 for that thing. Somebody destroying it on purpose is no different that somebody taking a $100 bill from you and tearing it to shreads, somebody taking your digital camera and throwing it on the ground, or somebody taking your shoes and urinating on them. I care about my property and I will protect it. The amount of protection given to a Space Marine model worth $5 will be different from the amount of protection given to a model worth over $100.
2) I can't speak about anybody else, but I want to make sure that I clarify that I do not advocate "taking it outside", "beating somebody to a pulp", or any other form of vigilante justice. But if you would be jumping on an expensive model of mine then you will at the very least get a push if not a punch to the face. I will inflict the amount of violence needed to stop the destruction of my property. If the guy is no longer stomping on your model, but you are still punching him, then IMO you are going to far. In my mind there is a big difference between using violence to protect your property, and violence for the sake of revenge.
3) If the damaged model was expensive enough, I would not worry about the other guy calling the cops. I would more than likely call the cops myself to make sure a police report is filed about the damage done to my property so that I have the paperwork needed to follow up in small claims court if needed.
4) I am not a lawyer and I do not dispense legal advice. If people take actions based on the opinion of a bunch of folks on a message board, then they are on their own.
Asuron wrote:During school I participated in a Woodworks class, had some douchebag always ruin my work by either chipping it or ruining it in some way
Doing nothing didn't stop him, it only reinforced to him that he could get away with it
Going to the teachers doesn't help because they can't really do anything
Well of course doing nothing didn't help. There are a world of options between 'doing nothing' and 'beating the crap out of him' though.
If I had punched him and beat the crap out of him, he would have stopped, no questions about it
Not really. If you had started a fight over it, he might have stopped. Or he might have simply felt even more vindicated about whatever grudge it is that he has against you, and escalated things even further.
Or he might have won, in which case all you get out of it is a beating and possibly some time off school for the both of you.
It doesn't matter whats being harmed, sometimes violence is the best answer to solve a problem
It's sometimes an answer. It's sometimes the easiest answer. But the best answer? Not by a long shot. The 'best' answer is one that doesn't involve anyone getting hurt, and that results in whatever is causing the situation to actually be resolved, rather than just trying to impress on someone that he should stop what he's doing because you can hit harder than he can.
Unfortunately I chose the wrong wording by saying "doing nothing"
What I meant to say is that other solutions, where I didn't make him physically stop, were not effective
As it stands, no he couldn't have won, I know this as a fact
Trust me when I say this, but this guy wouldnt have beat me in a fight and its hard to not make that sound like bravado, but it is the truth.
The only reason why he got away with this, is because I was raised in a very specific way as to not retaliate with violence or resort to it
Something that while I understand, respect and practice, still frustrates me to this day.
Take from that what you will
I would say yes, in this case violence would have stopped it
Please though, do list the solutions you think would have worked
I gurantee you all of them were tried, none succeeding
Although, this shouldnt become a thread about me and my childhood problems lol I got over them, just like everyone else who went to highschool, its part of growing up
@Mannahnin
Its funny you should say that
He actually caused me to have a permanent scar on my hand, when he cut it with a sheet of metal
Which he never took responsibility for either
But I guess, yes at the end of the day it is a rationalizing of violence, which I never practice anyway
So its not really a issue for me
What I am advocating though, is if someone should break something that cost you money, time and love to complete, some form of action in my opinion, is entirely justified, if not expected
Is it the right thing to do? Probably not. But we are humans and not robots, if human beings acted rational and unemotional all the time, these problems wouldnt exist at all and we wouldnt be here discussing it
If they were that violent with it and depending on how many models they break I've got several options. 1) make sure the manager knows about it and get them banned from the store 2) let it go and hope it apologizes and repays me or 3) destruction of property is in fact a crime and if he breaks my whole army (smashes my soft case for instance) I wouldn't hesitate to pursue it in court. Sure, children and those with a childlike mindset might laugh at me for taking someone to court who broke my toys, but that isn't the legal issue at all. Besides, the judge might force him to see a psychologist about those anger issues.
Physical force isn't in my best interest both for the reasons stated and personal philosophy. I'm somewhat of a pacifist and won't fight unless I absolutely have to. Having said that, if I feel threatened enough to actually have to fight I travel armed. An inch tall figure isn't worth the mess.
i dont think anyone has ever gone into a store and just tried breaking peoples miniatures(not toys).after reading through most posts here it seems folks are getting enraged over a billion to one possible incident.in my local gw im sure the police would be called and the guys there would probably set me up with replacement mini's,again im not positive as i dont think its gonna happen.now this could be because im a seventeen stone bodybuilder who isnt going to let a dodgy looking idiot anywhere near my lovingly crafted mini's(again NOT TOYS).now i know if an idiot came in and started bothering the lads(and ladies) in the store most of us would be telling them to gtfo.as for the violence posted in earlier posts you dont need to go chuck lidell on some one you just give them the impression your gonna eat their first born child and trust me they'd back off.i don't want to come acroos as big headed here and i hope i haven't made my self sound like a prick.
Best way to stop them. Look them in the eyes and say
"If you touch anything else - ANYTHING - I will kill myself. And when my tainted spirit finds it's destination. I will topple the master of that dark place. From my black throne, I will lash together a machine of bone and blood, fueled by my hatred for you this fear engine will bore a hole between this world and that one.
When it begins, you will hear the sound of children screaming. As though from a great distance. A smoking orb of nothing will grow above your bed, and from it will emerge a thousand starving crows. As i slip through the widening maw in my new form, you will catch only a glimpse of my radiance before you are incinerated. Then as tears of bubbling pitch steam down my face, my dark work will begin.
I will open one of my six mouths, and I will sing the song that ends the Earth"
My question to OP would be...where do you draw the line? Can someone purposely damage your car without retribution? Your home?
Honestly someone who is the kind of little punk who attacks propert when they are mad at someone deserves a beating. A beating like the coward they are.
Have a problem with a person? Confront the person. Attacking a persons property is a chicken shizz move.
Lorek wrote:I've seen several threads recently about people talking about punching/kicking/shoryukening someone at their local game store, usually over purposefully broken miniatures (and almost always a hypothetical situation for them). There's been some "debate" (I use the term loosely) about what's legal, why you can get away with it, etc.
I'd like to lay out a few reasons why you should never assault someone, and only use physical violence as a last resort (especially in these situations).
1. You're almost certainly going to be vulnerable to legal trouble, both criminal and civil. Civil cases (where the other party tries to sue you) are just no fun, and NOT worth the hassle (and potential monetary loss). Criminal cases can really suck, and you could wind up with a permanent mark on your record. The police won't care so much about the damaged property as they will about the fact that you just assaulted someone. Why risk it?
2. You'll probably look like a douchebag. Unless it's self defense, using violence to solve a problem means that you've either got self-control problems or some growing up to do.
3. People who are really good at fighting don't always look the part. The guy you just punched? If he's already upset, and a really good fighter, you could be in for a world-class ass-whoopin'.
4. You could be banned from that game store. Is that worth a some broken models? (In my case, definitely not!)
5. You're MUCH less likely to ever be able to help the other guy see the error of his ways. The best resolution of this kind of situation is where the guy who breaks your models does all he can to make it up to you; if you deck him, chances are that he'll never make that effort.
So please please please don't assault anyone, and don't advocate it here. Thank you.
You forgot to mention the most important reason:
6. That guy might have a gun out in his car. Is a broken model worth a gun-fight?
Akaelus wrote:Best way to stop them. Look them in the eyes and say
"If you touch anything else - ANYTHING - I will kill myself. And when my tainted spirit finds it's destination. I will topple the master of that dark place. From my black throne, I will lash together a machine of bone and blood, fueled by my hatred for you this fear engine will bore a hole between this world and that one.
When it begins, you will hear the sound of children screaming. As though from a great distance. A smoking orb of nothing will grow above your bed, and from it will emerge a thousand starving crows. As i slip through the widening maw in my new form, you will catch only a glimpse of my radiance before you are incinerated. Then as tears of bubbling pitch steam down my face, my dark work will begin.
I will open one of my six mouths, and I will sing the song that ends the Earth"
1) I am getting really annoyed at people trying to make this a case of people breaking toy soldiers. Frankly, to me it comes across the same way as saying "Boohoo, somebody broke your toy....". If property is being destroyed it does not matter what it is. I will take my Forgeworld dreadnought as an example again. I paid over $100 for that thing. Somebody destroying it on purpose is no different that somebody taking a $100 bill from you and tearing it to shreads, somebody taking your digital camera and throwing it on the ground, or somebody taking your shoes and urinating on them. I care about my property and I will protect it. The amount of protection given to a Space Marine model worth $5 will be different from the amount of protection given to a model worth over $100.
Please remember, in the USA at least, the law allows you to use an appropriate amount of force to protect your property. The law provides no allowance for the use of force for taking revenge after damage to your property. If the damage is already done, any violence you commit is retaliation and not protection, and any sympathy you might have had from law enforcement is gone. If the case were to go civil, the other guy would have to pay for your model, and you'd have to pay for his medical bills. Who do you think would end up paying more money?
To Asuron- I think your situation is an entirely different case, as Mannahnin said, bullying in school or another location where you cannot leave or get away from it on an ongoing basis is something that has to be dealt with. I think you were the bigger man (kid?) for not resorting to violence. However, your situation has made me think about what to do in that case, and honestly I don't know.
I just wanted to point out that, I think it's very different than what we're talking about here. Imho, resorting to violence wouldn't be the way to solve it at all, but I view what you're talking about as a much more serious thing. People have resorted to suicide to get away from bullying; it's a big problem in schools (and I saw it first hand as I was a teacher last year) and needs to be seriously considered for what it is.
It's definitely not on the same level as someone breaking models, which is a one-off incident of violence that can much more easily be handled. I would say the case of bullying is much more serious, and would need to be considered very carefully and strong (non-violent) action taken. By whom, I am not sure, as it seems you tried many things, but this is a large problem in schools and needs a solution. In many cases, violence is not even a possible answer, due to the bullied person being unable to stop the other by violent means. So it is up to the school, parents, or peers to intervene, which all to often does not happen, with sometimes very serious repercussions.
Just wanted to address that and not let it get lost in what we were talking about in a more one-off incident above, which is far from the consistent bullying you were facing, and had to decide how to deal with, unfortunately it seems without much help from others...
1) I am getting really annoyed at people trying to make this a case of people breaking toy soldiers. Frankly, to me it comes across the same way as saying "Boohoo, somebody broke your toy....". If property is being destroyed it does not matter what it is. I will take my Forgeworld dreadnought as an example again. I paid over $100 for that thing. Somebody destroying it on purpose is no different that somebody taking a $100 bill from you and tearing it to shreads, somebody taking your digital camera and throwing it on the ground, or somebody taking your shoes and urinating on them. I care about my property and I will protect it. The amount of protection given to a Space Marine model worth $5 will be different from the amount of protection given to a model worth over $100.
Please remember, in the USA at least, the law allows you to use an appropriate amount of force to protect your property. The law provides no allowance for the use of force for taking revenge after damage to your property. If the damage is already done, any violence you commit is retaliation and not protection, and any sympathy you might have had from law enforcement is gone. If the case were to go civil, the other guy would have to pay for your model, and you'd have to pay for his medical bills. Who do you think would end up paying more money?
If you quote me on #1, and go on to tell me about "retaliation vs protection", you should have read my point #2:
d-usa wrote:2) I can't speak about anybody else, but I want to make sure that I clarify that I do not advocate "taking it outside", "beating somebody to a pulp", or any other form of vigilante justice. But if you would be jumping on an expensive model of mine then you will at the very least get a push if not a punch to the face. I will inflict the amount of violence needed to stop the destruction of my property. If the guy is no longer stomping on your model, but you are still punching him, then IMO you are going to far. In my mind there is a big difference between using violence to protect your property, and violence for the sake of revenge.
d-usa wrote:1) I am getting really annoyed at people trying to make this a case of people breaking toy soldiers.
Sorry you're annoyed, but they're still (albeit expensive) toy soldiers, and in perspective not worth assaulting a human being over. I guarantee that the police would feel the same. They would say the same about a $500 camera. Again, you can try to shield your stuff, or take it away from him, but doing so generally doesn't require any punching or kicking.
d-usa wrote: Somebody destroying it on purpose is no different that somebody taking a $100 bill from you and tearing it to shreads, somebody taking your digital camera and throwing it on the ground, or somebody taking your shoes and urinating on them. I care about my property and I will protect it.
Okay, but bear in mind that this thread was not started because people said they'd protect their models. It was started because people said they'd start fights, break bones, stomp on the person who stomped on their models, "take it outside", and a host of other dumb tough-guy things to say which might be fun to contemplate but would be a terrible idea in real life.
d-usa wrote: If the guy is no longer stomping on your model, but you are still punching him, then IMO you are going to far. In my mind there is a big difference between using violence to protect your property, and violence for the sake of revenge.
Agreed, with the caveat that I don't think any kind of punching or pushing is a smart idea. Again, what happens if you shove the guy and he falls on top of another gaming table full of other people's models? You've just destroyed their stuff.
d-usa wrote:3) If the damaged model was expensive enough, I would not worry about the other guy calling the cops. I would more than likely call the cops myself to make sure a police report is filed about the damage done to my property so that I have the paperwork needed to follow up in small claims court if needed.
Absolutely agreed about involving the cops. Except that if you have a broken Dreadnought and the other guy has a broken nose, I guarantee that you're getting arrested. And you've just badly hurt your chances at getting restitution for the Dread in civil court.
Mad4Minis wrote:My question to OP would be...where do you draw the line? Can someone purposely damage your car without retribution? Your home?
Justice =/= retribution. The law doesn't permit you to seek revenge by personal violence for property damage. You can protect your stuff, but generally not by attacking people.
Mad4Minis wrote:Honestly someone who is the kind of little punk who attacks propert when they are mad at someone deserves a beating. A beating like the coward they are.
Yes, yes, we understand that you would like us to understand how tough and macho you are.
This is ridiculous! People have actually deliberately broken someone elses miniatures? I can't say I've ever heard of that ever happening before.
On the topic at hand; Violence never solves anything. You may look rough and tough when you're beating down someone who is just about as socially inept as you are but in the end you'll likely never be allowed back into the store you game in, you'll likely lose friends due to your attitude and anger, and you're also likely to be slapped with a fine or worse: Jail time. Over a Warhammer miniature. It's a plastic, maybe metal, model.
d-usa wrote:2) I can't speak about anybody else, but I want to make sure that I clarify that I do not advocate "taking it outside", "beating somebody to a pulp", or any other form of vigilante justice. But if you would be jumping on an expensive model of mine then you will at the very least get a push if not a punch to the face. I will inflict the amount of violence needed to stop the destruction of my property. If the guy is no longer stomping on your model, but you are still punching him, then IMO you are going to far. In my mind there is a big difference between using violence to protect your property, and violence for the sake of revenge.
I think what Saldiven was trying to point out: It doesn't matter if there is a difference in your mind or not, there is a difference in they eyes of the law. Using reasonable force to prevent destruction of property is acceptable, using force in retaliation is called assault.
Even then... I've never heard of anyone deliberately breaking someone else's models. I'm sure a police report would be the best way to deal with the situation if you can't quickly snatch your models back.
I recently accidentally broke another club member's models - he was pretty cool about it however, and I compensated him for it anyway. Being amicable about it was a lot easier than getting in a fight - always go for this route if you can
Asuron wrote:Unfortunately I chose the wrong wording by saying "doing nothing"
What I meant to say is that other solutions, where I didn't make him physically stop, were not effective
I'm sorry to hear that. As I said before, and as RiTides said, bullying in school or similar venues is a really difficult issue. I sympathize for the position you were in. Please bear in mind, however, that it's not the same thing as what this thread's about.
Asuron wrote:As it stands, no he couldn't have won, I know this as a fact
Trust me when I say this, but this guy wouldnt have beat me in a fight and its hard to not make that sound like bravado, but it is the truth.
If you know anything about fights, you know that they are unpredictable. We're not talking about a boxing match or even MMA fight where there are rules; and even those often have upsets. You may have convinced yourself that you would have won. You may be certain. You may be equally certain that neither of you would have lost any teeth, or eyesight, or broken bones, or taken any other serious damage. But you're lying to yourself if you say you "know this as a fact".
Asuron wrote:Is it the right thing to do? Probably not. But we are humans and not robots, if human beings acted rational and unemotional all the time, these problems wouldnt exist at all and we wouldnt be here discussing it.
I think this is a false dichotomy. Of course human beings are emotional, and not robots. But unlike most animals we can control our emotional reactions, as you demonstrated by not assaulting your bully.
We are rationalizing animals- we convince ourselves of things all the time, and the beliefs we hold shape our behavior. You believed violence was not the answer, and so you did not respond with violence. A person who convinces themselves (or is convinced by others' casual comments) that punching someone in the nose over a broken model is right and appropriate will be more likely to do so. And that's a problem, which Lorek tried to address with this thread.
silpheedpilot wrote:This is ridiculous! People have actually deliberately broken someone elses miniatures? I can't say I've ever heard of that ever happening before.
On the topic at hand; Violence never solves anything. You may look rough and tough when you're beating down someone who is just about as socially inept as you are but in the end you'll likely never be allowed back into the store you game in, you'll likely lose friends due to your attitude and anger, and you're also likely to be slapped with a fine or worse: Jail time. Over a Warhammer miniature. It's a plastic, maybe metal, model.
I've seen it happen when I was about eight and my brother was about six. I've never seen it happen in later life.
I think it is something that happens a great deal more on the Internet than IRL.
I'm a people person and pretty good at avoiding confrontation, so this hypothetical situation probably wouldn't ever happen to me.
But, saying for the sake of argument that it did.
1) If I could see that they were making a move to break something of mine, but hadn't yet, I would stop them. As with Shingouki, I'm pretty sure I'm a lot stronger than 99% of guys that frequent GW. I wouldn't 'assault' them. I wouldn't knock them out. But I would keep them the hell away from breaking something valuable of mine. Politely, but firmly.
2) If they had already broken a mini of mine - again, I wouldn't get violent, but I would certainly try to find some recompense. In that situation, being as quiet and dignified as possible in the face of the abuse would garner me more support I reckon.
I would say this though - though I feel that some of the anti-violence posters on this thread have their hearts in the right place, I have to say that some of the stuff you're saying makes you sound quite naive.
If you've not been in a situation where violence IS a valid, appropriate and sometimes necessary answer to your predicament, then you've lived quite a sheltered life. Consider yourself somewhat lucky in that respect.
I would phsyically restrain someone attempting to smash my models. Just as I would physically restrain someone attempting to smash my mobile phone, break into my home or anything else. If they attemt to then hurt me or someone else, I may take futher steps to stop...which means restraining them painfully, in my case.
If they'd already broken it, I'd ask for them to explain there actions and, if needed, give me some damned cash.
The thing that worries me about actually getting into a fight is that someone can get serious hurt. I saw some idiots fighting over something outside a club one night. Muppet A shoves Moron B, Muppet A shoves Moron B harder, Moron B falls back and snap! there went his collar bone. Muppet A is up on charges.
I love my models. They're my main hobby, and I take a lot of pride in some of them. My Ad Mech force is made out of entirely converted models. If someone smashed it, I would probably be hearthbroken. But at the end of the day, there is nothing there I can't repair or replace, given time.
If I shove some moron and he goes down again the corner of the table and cracks his skull, there's no way to fix that. Even a broken bone means you're suddenly a social lepper. 'You broke his ARM over some models?' You can answer, 'Well, he was trying to smash a coverted Bloodthrister with £200 of parts that took me a year to build and paint' if you want, but most people are just gonna stop at, 'You broke his over a model'. I suspect it'll win you no brownie points in a court room, either, since his lawyer is pretty much gonna play up the, 'He flew into a violent nerd rage becuase his toy was broken, what an immature loony' angle.
d-usa wrote:1) I am getting really annoyed at people trying to make this a case of people breaking toy soldiers.
Sorry you're annoyed, but they're still (albeit expensive) toy soldiers, and in perspective not worth assaulting a human being over. I guarantee that the police would feel the same. They would say the same about a $500 camera. Again, you can try to shield your stuff, or take it away from him, but doing so generally doesn't require any punching or kicking.
If your police department acts based on the type of property, vs. the value of property, then you have a sad police department.
Scenario 1: He tried to break your $100 camera? you were right to stop them.
Scenario 2: He tried to break your $100 model? Quit being a crybaby.
I have to spend the same amount of time at work to pay for that property, a $100 model is the same as a $100 bill. Our cops don't take lightly to destruction of personal property, regardless of the type.
And again, I'm not talking about revenge/retaliation/anger/wanting to feel macho/showing off for the one female gamer in the store. I am talking about taking steps to prevent and/or stop the destruction of the property. If the model is already stomped on the ground I will call the cops, and make note of that persons tag if they try to leave before the cops get there. But I have worked to hard to earn my money to stand by and watch somebody destroy what I own.
Once a player has stooped to the low of attacking my models, I am pretty sure that all future attempts to reason with them have already been lost.
Steel Mage 99 wrote:This thread is just full of internet tough guys.
The amount of "He'll better be able to fight", "I am going to defend my property" and "He'd better be a good runner" is staggering.
Guys, nobody is impressed by your obvious prepubescent posturing.
Yes,because clearly anyone who states they would attempt to prevent their property from being destroyed is some sort of "internet tough guy" or "posturing prepubescent child".
The fact that many of the individuals involved in 40k are Military or ex-Military or perhaps don't fit into a pre-assumed "mold" doesn't factor in whatsoever....right?
You know what doesn't "impress" me...people who paint with broad brushes
EDIT:...
One could argue that those taking the "Intellectual High Road" of..."I would Never hit someone over destroying my property "..are people that are so accustomed to being victimized that the thought of standing up for themselves is completely alien to them.
GazzyG wrote:I'm a people person and pretty good at avoiding confrontation, so this hypothetical situation probably wouldn't ever happen to me.
But, saying for the sake of argument that it did.
1) If I could see that they were making a move to break something of mine, but hadn't yet, I would stop them. As with Shingouki, I'm pretty sure I'm a lot stronger than 99% of guys that frequent GW. I wouldn't 'assault' them. I wouldn't knock them out. But I would keep them the hell away from breaking something valuable of mine. Politely, but firmly.
2) If they had already broken a mini of mine - again, I wouldn't get violent, but I would certainly try to find some recompense. In that situation, being as quiet and dignified as possible in the face of the abuse would garner me more support I reckon.
All agreed.
GazzyG wrote:I would say this though - though I feel that some of the anti-violence posters on this thread have their hearts in the right place, I have to say that some of the stuff you're saying makes you sound quite naive.
If you've not been in a situation where violence IS a valid, appropriate and sometimes necessary answer to your predicament, then you've lived quite a sheltered life. Consider yourself somewhat lucky in that respect.
I encourage you to read the posts again and bear in mind the context specified. We're talking about fighting over models in a store. We're not talking about defending your home from a burglar or your country in a war.
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d-usa wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:
d-usa wrote:1) I am getting really annoyed at people trying to make this a case of people breaking toy soldiers.
Sorry you're annoyed, but they're still (albeit expensive) toy soldiers, and in perspective not worth assaulting a human being over. I guarantee that the police would feel the same. They would say the same about a $500 camera. Again, you can try to shield your stuff, or take it away from him, but doing so generally doesn't require any punching or kicking.
If your police department acts based on the type of property, vs. the value of property, then you have a sad police department.
Scenario 1: He tried to break your $100 camera? you were right to stop them.
Scenario 2: He tried to break your $100 model? Quit being a crybaby.
Did you actually read my post? I specifically stated, IN THE SECTION YOU QUOTED, that the police will react the same way if it's a model or a $500 camera. If he broke something of yours and you break his nose over it, you get arrested.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FITZZ wrote:
Steel Mage 99 wrote:This thread is just full of internet tough guys.
The amount of "He'll better be able to fight", "I am going to defend my property" and "He'd better be a good runner" is staggering.
Guys, nobody is impressed by your obvious prepubescent posturing.
Yes,because clearly anyone who states they would attempt to prevent their property from being destroyed is some sort of "internet tough guy" or "posturing prepubescent child".
Again, I'm not saying you are, but most of them are. Or are acting like it. Yes, Steelmage is painting with an unnecessarily broad brush, but you're also choosing to take offense over him lumping "I am going to defend my property" in with the other two stupid lines, without bearing in mind the context. Most of the guys in here talking about "defending their property" are talking about using an unnecessary amount of force.
FITZZ wrote:The fact that many of the individuals involved in 40k are Military or ex-Military or perhaps don't fit into a pre-assumed "mold" doesn't factor in whatsoever....right?
And the fact that many of us are military or ex-military also gives some of us sufficient perspective on real violence as to think it's silly to resort to over a model, or a camera for that matter.
One could argue that those taking the "Intellectual High Road" of..."I would Never hit someone over destroying my property "..are people that are so accustomed to being victimized that the thought of standing up for themselves is completely alien to them.
Nah, I for one am a big dude. I can hurt folks if I need to. Equally, though, I prefer to avoid trouble with the cops unless it's absoloutly nessecery. A broken model can be fixed. A damaged paint job can be re-painted. It's not like they're throwing cigarettes at my kid or trying to touch up my wife or something.
I could not conceive of someone intentionally standing there trying to destroy my minis. I don't think I've actualy seen such. But then again I don't think anyone hastried to destroy my stuff since elementary school.
I think the issue, Frazz, was more the response that is battered about commonly on the internet, of "I'd wreck his face!" or the like.
Again, I've heard this comment made in real life about dice. As to the person saying anyone condoning a non-violent response (and we're talking not assaulting the person here... I'm assuming you're not just standing by enjoying it, either) please don't assume... none of us know each other here.
I taught in an inner city school last year and had a fight break out in my room. I'm not a big guy, and there's no way I could have broken these two guys up. Luckily, they stopped after about 30 seconds (not until half the room was turned upside down, though). And it was over something much smaller than a piece of broken property.
My latest experience was going to a movie, and seeing one threater with everyone standing outside and three police officers going in. Apparently there was a fight going on in the theater.
This thread isn't about times when violence is legitimately the only recourse. It's about attacking some dude who just broke your stuff. I think there's a lot of hyperbole going on that's not necessary...
As to the view that saying a violent response isn't OK is "the moral high crowd" or the like- I think that's missing the point. Most of us have probably seen or been part of violence in our lives, and saying it has no place in this hobby is, imho, refreshing. The fact that a lot of people who participate in this hobby are ex-military only reinforces this for me. This is our hobby of pretend warfare... bringing real violence into it just isn't the right thing to do in almost any circumstance.
GazzyG wrote:I would say this though - though I feel that some of the anti-violence posters on this thread have their hearts in the right place, I have to say that some of the stuff you're saying makes you sound quite naive.
If you've not been in a situation where violence IS a valid, appropriate and sometimes necessary answer to your predicament, then you've lived quite a sheltered life. Consider yourself somewhat lucky in that respect.
I encourage you to read the posts again and bear in mind the context specified. We're talking about fighting over models in a store. We're not talking about defending your home from a burglar or your country in a war.
Some of the posts were quite broad. Implying that anyone who responds to anything with violence is weak willed or feeble minded. This is what I was answering with this comment.
Mannahnin wrote:Did you actually read my post? I specifically stated, IN THE SECTION YOU QUOTED, that the police will react the same way if it's a model or a $500 camera. If he broke something of yours and you break his nose over it, you get arrested.
Then you have crappy cops, and if you get charged you have a crappy DA. Part of this might also be just a cultural difference due to our location, although I have no idea where you are located.
My brother witnessed a robbery about 5-6 years back, some idiot on a bike snatched a purse. As he drove past him he grabbed him and threw him of the bike, broke his arm in the process, busted his face, broke the bike, all over a purse with just maybe $50, a phone, etc...
Did the cops arrest my brother for breaking someones arm in the process of protecting property? Nope. And after the cops refused to press charges against him, the guy on the bike decided to sue him. Judge told him that getting thrown of the bike was a risk he took when he decided to do what he did.
Around here people are willing to protect their property. Having somebody stop you when you decide to destroy it is a risk you take.
This is getting absurd... a stolen purse has a person's ID, credit card, etc in it. It also sounds like he was coming to the aid of someone else, not taking vengeance for something done to him.
GazzyG wrote:Some of the posts were quite broad. Implying that anyone who responds to anything with violence is weak willed or feeble minded. This is what I was answering with this comment.
I don't think this is what anyone is saying, but even if they are, it's certainly not what the OP is about. We weren't talking about whether or not it is ever right to resort to violence, in any extreme situation (most people would agree that it is, especially in the defense of another person... unless they're a total pacifist, which is admirable in other ways). It's a response to the common talk of what people would do if someone broke their warhammer models.
I don't know if people are missing the point on purpose, but hyperbole isn't helping the discussion here. Obviously, there are times where you would need to physically harm someone in an extreme situation... but imho, this not one of those situations.
I actually had this happen to me. Luckily it was at-43 and not some models that I personally painted.
I was playing a game and a 14 year old was watching the game, talking to us and also being somewhat of a nuisance. We did our best talking with him explaining the game (no reason not to try to get others involved) though he wasn't a random, he did play 40k.
After a while he gets up and knocks a model off the table breaking it. He didn't tip or knock the table, but after standing up he starts to walk away and hits it, a 40 dollar karman speeder. He looks down at the model, shrugs his shoulders and walks away. While it was unclear whether it was intentional, he didn't seem at all upset or apologetic about it.
I demanded he pay for the broken model (or his parent/guardian). He laughed and said no so I picked up the phone and said I was calling the cops, he changed his tune quickly.
Later when his father came to pick him up I went out to meet him and explained his son broke my model and I expected for him to reimburse me. After discussing it with him his dad pulled out 2 20's and paid me.
Some of the other gamers at the store said I handled it badly and I shouldn't have done that. However, I was 14 year old gamer once, and the people I played with only allowed me to play with them because I was respectful of their stuff, he obviously wasn't. I believe in teaching people lessons and paying for mistakes, I do it, they should too.
Later I found out he was banned temporarily from the hobbytown for 2 other occasions, in which he broke others models. I still can't believe the other gamers thought I was the bad guy in it.
My understanding is he hasn't broke anyone else's models since then and has acted more respectful around the gaming area.
To the guys who had something broke and their gaming friends I was a champion, to others I was an A-hole. But they probably thought that about me anyways. Gaming cliches LOL.
1) I am getting really annoyed at people trying to make this a case of people breaking toy soldiers. Frankly, to me it comes across the same way as saying "Boohoo, somebody broke your toy....". If property is being destroyed it does not matter what it is. I will take my Forgeworld dreadnought as an example again. I paid over $100 for that thing. Somebody destroying it on purpose is no different that somebody taking a $100 bill from you and tearing it to shreads, somebody taking your digital camera and throwing it on the ground, or somebody taking your shoes and urinating on them. I care about my property and I will protect it. The amount of protection given to a Space Marine model worth $5 will be different from the amount of protection given to a model worth over $100.
2) I can't speak about anybody else, but I want to make sure that I clarify that I do not advocate "taking it outside", "beating somebody to a pulp", or any other form of vigilante justice. But if you would be jumping on an expensive model of mine then you will at the very least get a push if not a punch to the face. I will inflict the amount of violence needed to stop the destruction of my property. If the guy is no longer stomping on your model, but you are still punching him, then IMO you are going to far. In my mind there is a big difference between using violence to protect your property, and violence for the sake of revenge.
3) If the damaged model was expensive enough, I would not worry about the other guy calling the cops. I would more than likely call the cops myself to make sure a police report is filed about the damage done to my property so that I have the paperwork needed to follow up in small claims court if needed.
4) I am not a lawyer and I do not dispense legal advice. If people take actions based on the opinion of a bunch of folks on a message board, then they are on their own.
Agree with this %100. If it was some 10 year old and they started trashing my stuff i wouldn't hit them however i would physically stop them and due to my size i would be able to. However if we're talking about a young adult up to adult i'd physically stop them and if it resulted in a fight well so be it.
I can't remember who the poster was on page two near the bottom bringing up a lot of "what ifs" in regards to the woodworking class post. My thoughts are this, you can't live your life on what ifs, anything could happen regardless of your action.
firmlog, I think you handled that really well... unfortunately, sometimes with a young gamer like that they're getting it from their parents. I'm glad in this case the parent was willing to rectify the situation... and probably gave their child a bit of discipline afterwards, due to his change in behavior.
RiTides wrote:firmlog, I think you handled that really well... unfortunately, sometimes with a young gamer like that they're getting it from their parents. I'm glad in this case the parent was willing to rectify the situation... and probably gave their child a bit of discipline afterwards, due to his change in behavior.
I'm impressed to that the father paid you back. I guess i've just heard to many instances where parents think their kids can do no wrong. I don't think you handled poorly at all.
I had told the father I would have to call the police as well to file a report. But I imagine he was a bit more honorable than most.
The interesting part was the kid himself never held it against me. While I've moved from that area, I had seen him at later game events and he was always very sociable if not friendly towards me.
Steel Mage 99 wrote:This thread is just full of internet tough guys.
The amount of "He'll better be able to fight", "I am going to defend my property" and "He'd better be a good runner" is staggering.
Guys, nobody is impressed by your obvious prepubescent posturing.
Yes,because clearly anyone who states they would attempt to prevent their property from being destroyed is some sort of "internet tough guy" or "posturing prepubescent child".
The fact that many of the individuals involved in 40k are Military or ex-Military or perhaps don't fit into a pre-assumed "mold" doesn't factor in whatsoever....right?
Being ex-military (and having studied martial arts for most of my adult life) has helped me see how useful violence is as a teaching tool.
When resorting to violence in connection with the destruction of a model over a wargame, you (generic "you") are trying one of two things;
A. Teach the person that such actions are unacceptable
or
B. Extracting retribution for a wrong done to you.
A will, in my experience, never have the desired effect and B is the job of the law, not you (generic "you").
Me pointing out that I am ex-military and a student of martial arts is actually completely irrelevant as you probably wont believe me anyway. Just like I wont believe that a fraction of the people promoting violence in the situations in question will actually do it.
In my experience the people that talk a lot about it (over the interwebz) are even less likely to.
Anyway, the point of this thread is that advocating violence is no more welcome on DakkaDakka than racism, sexism, homophobia, IP violations and so on.
I have had my mini's broken but not on purpose, I didn't ask them to pay for it merely to say sorry. I didn't ask for payment because it was just a little child who had no clue what he had done. But if he had broken them maliciously it would have been a different story I would have charged him for the figure and hopefully would have got his parents to tell him off.
However if I ever wanted to start a fight with someone over a broken figure Lewis the manager at my FLGS would happily intervene as has been the case before. If an extreme case presented itself such as they were fighting and someone say grabbed a hobby tool the Police would be called as they have been before.
But in reference to the first post, I agree with Lorek in that violence is never the right answer.
insaniak wrote:
It's sometimes an answer. It's sometimes the easiest answer. But the best answer? Not by a long shot. The 'best' answer is one that doesn't involve anyone getting hurt, and that results in whatever is causing the situation to actually be resolved, rather than just trying to impress on someone that he should stop what he's doing because you can hit harder than he can.
Unfortunately you are obviously wrong. It is not very common but sometimes violence is the only answer. I do not advocate it ever being the first answer you take but sometimes maladjusted people (or any other tag you want to use to describe them) just don't listen to reason. Now often this is also followed by adults either not taking the situation seriously or not doing what they should to stop the situation but the need for violence is a provable historical fact. I can literally cite thousands of court cases in which violence was necessary (and justified) as well as historical cases in which violence was needed.
However this is really a foolish topic about something that never really happens anyway. How many people here have had someone break their miniatures on purpose? And of those who have how many have resorted to fisticuffs?
I will point out that legally if someone has broken your miniatures and you assault them after the fact you could go to jail (yes my wife is a lawyer and I asked about this specifically...... and yes she called me a complete dork). But if you are contemplating violence in this situation you had best be careful because there is a world of difference between stopping someone from breaking your items and attacking them after they have already stopped doing it.
And lastly I will point out that if you are hanging around with people who act like this I would suggest you find better people to hang around with.
brettz123, there have been plenty of legal cases in which violence has been regarded as an acceptable (thought not necessarily only) response. I very much doubt that any of those situations involved toy soldiers.
There is a great deal of difference between two things.
1 - Trying to physically defend your property is usually allowed. If he'd smashed a tank and is aiming for the next you can stop him, legally, so long as you don't use too much force. Pinning someone to the ground or simply holding them is very different to wailing on there face screaming, 'I have no more Scropion Green you frakker!'
2 - Attacking them after the fact is not, in anyway and as far as my meagre legal learnings are concerned, legal or justified. Defending your property is one thing. Assaulting someone in revenge is not. It may be classified as aggravated assault rather than plain assault, but your sack is still in a legal sling.
The fact of the matter is, if you go in with fist flying and break some morons nose, if he gets the cops involved you're likely to be the one sitting in a cell, preying the massive hulk of a man on the other side hasn't been there long enough to decide you look purty. Yeah, it sucks your model got broken. But your response has to be reasoned.
Which is not easy, anyone will admit. You get angry, you get stupid and you haul off on the target. It's understandable, of course. It's just not very clever.
At the end of the day, I know at least in the UK, I don't trust the legal system to see any kind of violence in a good light. I've heard horror stories of people breaking into someone's home, stealing half there stuff, ending up breaking there leg...and then suing them for that. Which is madness, to me, but people sue McDonalds for making them fat, so I can believe it.
Hell, I know for a fact that my home town, Derby, has been sued because a conker fell out a tree and bobbed a girl on the head.
If that can happen, what are the chances that 'He re-arranged my face over, at most, a three figure piece of property and quite possibly far less and now I have permanent facial scaring' is gonna see them taking you for every penny? Remember, good folks, you get to rest to reasonable force and only in defence, not in retaliation.
One could argue that those taking the "Intellectual High Road" of..."I would Never hit someone over destroying my property "..are people that are so accustomed to being victimized that the thought of standing up for themselves is completely alien to them.
Nah, I for one am a big dude. I can hurt folks if I need to. Equally, though, I prefer to avoid trouble with the cops unless it's absoloutly nessecery. A broken model can be fixed. A damaged paint job can be re-painted. It's not like they're throwing cigarettes at my kid or trying to touch up my wife or something.
Ah, sweet perspective, how this thread has missed you so.
As JG has pointed out, a model, regardless of how lovingly painted, is just a thing, and is not worth the same amount level of physical defense as a child or spouse would be. The actions that would be deemed appropriate to protect mere property will never rise to the level of action that would be deemed appropriate to protect an individual.
Steelmage99 wrote:B. Extracting retribution for a wrong done to you.
... and B is the job of the law, not you (generic "you").
I really have to take issue with the idea that it is not the job of private individuals to seek retribution for a wrong.
There are two types of retribution you can take: violent or non-violent.
The police will never engage in (legal) violent retribution against someone for anything. To do so is just as illegal for them as it is for us average citizens. On that note, private physical violent retribution is not strictly 'legal' either. The line drawing is in prosecution, which is never predictable, because cops and prosecutors are notoriously fickle.
Second, private non-violent retribution is most definitely not the job of law enforcement. The job of law enforcement is to enforce the peace, it is not to reimburse or protect people. If you want recompense from someone breaking one of your models, you have to either convince them to reimburse you or sue them. Both are not law enforcement issues, but private disputes.
Steelmage99 wrote:Me pointing out that I am ex-military and a student of martial arts is actually completely irrelevant as you probably wont believe me anyway. Just like I wont believe that a fraction of the people promoting violence in the situations in question will actually do it.
In my experience the people that talk a lot about it (over the interwebz) are even less likely to.
Gotta love the internet tough guys. I have no doubt that you probably are ex-military and a martial arts student, just like you probably don't doubt that I'm a lawyer.
biccat- you're mis-reading the quote you're responding to. He said it's the "job of the law". Every time I've heard someone say that, they're including the court system (i.e. suing them, civil or criminal trial, etc).
You're making a point about law enforcement in response to something that isn't there... it is the job of the law (meaning the courts) to punish wrongdoing- it's not up to people to "take it into their own hands" to right a wrong such as this (meaning exacting "retribution" after the fact, not attempting to prevent it from happening). If they do, it's usually the job of the law to punish them in turn... which is one of the points Lorek was making in the OP.
Mannahnin wrote: As Asimov so well reminded us: "violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
Putting aside the arguement whether or not getting getting physical over someone willfully and deliberately destroying your property for the moment(personally I wouldnt), and dealing with Asimov:
Asimov is an idiot, and that statement holds little water in general. Violence is neither something of the incompentent, nor in many cases shoul dbe the last refuge.
Because even a hundred dollars worth of model is worth the months of suffering for the person when you break someone's bones. And somehow, I suspect, even in Texas, breaking bones over a model you could repair isn't going to go down that well.
For crying out loud people...do you not know how to use a tube of super glue?
Jon Garrett wrote:Because even a hundred dollars worth of model is worth the months of suffering for the person when you break someone's bones. And somehow, I suspect, even in Texas, breaking bones over a model you could repair isn't going to go down that well.
For crying out loud people...do you not know how to use a tube of super glue?
i know how to use super glue. doesn't mean i should have to just because some jerk was hugged too much as a child and can't deal with losing except to destroy hundreds of dollars of another man's property. besides, broken arms dont take months to heal, and is a very effective learning experience.
One thing I want to know is how often this even happens? I mean not by accident? Occasionally models fall, get knocked off the table yadda yadda but most of the time it is an accident, and fixable with glue.
But the last time I remember a model being purposefully broken I was like 13-14 years old, and sure the 2 got into a fight then but I mean at that age I would get into fights because I lost at NHL 94 know what I mean? Kids do there thing but how often does it come up were a person say 18+ has broken, purposefully another adult's model? And at what point did it escalate into actual violence? Like actual punches to the face? Not just a hold, or drag out of the store.
It just doesnt seem very plausible that it would get that far between adults. Any stories of it actually happening, were you have had to make a choice of weather or not to bring it to that level? And was it something a simple arm bar or other method of disabling couldnt handle?
yournamehere wrote:One thing I want to know is how often this even happens? I mean not by accident? Occasionally models fall, get knocked off the table yadda yadda but most of the time it is an accident, and fixable with glue.
But the last time I remember a model being purposefully broken I was like 13-14 years old, and sure the 2 got into a fight then but I mean at that age I would get into fights because I lost at NHL 94 know what I mean? Kids do there thing but how often does it come up were a person say 18+ has broken, purposefully another adult's model? And at what point did it escalate into actual violence? Like actual punches to the face? Not just a hold, or drag out of the store.
It just doesnt seem very plausible that it would get that far between adults. Any stories of it actually happening, were you have had to make a choice of weather or not to bring it to that level? And was it something a simple arm bar or other method of disabling couldnt handle?
I wouldn't happen. Not between normal, everyday people anyway.
i know how to use super glue. doesn't mean i should have to just because some jerk was hugged too much as a child and can't deal with losing except to destroy hundreds of dollars of another man's property. besides, broken arms dont take months to heal, and is a very effective learning experience.
Certainly. It's a brilliant lesson I'm trying to teach my kids.
"Someone does something you don't like? Respond with a massive ammount of violence and bodily harm! The police will never get involved if you assault others for breaking your things. Now go beat you sister, she broke that train the other day."
I'm not saying stand there gawping as someone slowly pulls each model apart, occasionally saying 'Please don't do that'. Pick 'em up and move 'em away, pin them to the floor. Whatever. Don't hurt them beyond that though because the law is not your friend beyond that.
And my wife, who had a broken arm, assures me they can take months to heal depending on how clean the break is, where it is, blood supply, etc.
Steelmage99 wrote:B. Extracting retribution for a wrong done to you.
... and B is the job of the law, not you (generic "you").
I really have to take issue with the idea that it is not the job of private individuals to seek retribution for a wrong.
There are two types of retribution you can take: violent or non-violent.
The police will never engage in (legal) violent retribution against someone for anything. To do so is just as illegal for them as it is for us average citizens. On that note, private physical violent retribution is not strictly 'legal' either. The line drawing is in prosecution, which is never predictable, because cops and prosecutors are notoriously fickle.
Second, private non-violent retribution is most definitely not the job of law enforcement. The job of law enforcement is to enforce the peace, it is not to reimburse or protect people. If you want recompense from someone breaking one of your models, you have to either convince them to reimburse you or sue them. Both are not law enforcement issues, but private disputes.
By "the law" I, of course, was referring to the justice system as a whole.
Steelmage99 wrote:Me pointing out that I am ex-military and a student of martial arts is actually completely irrelevant as you probably wont believe me anyway. Just like I wont believe that a fraction of the people promoting violence in the situations in question will actually do it.
In my experience the people that talk a lot about it (over the interwebz) are even less likely to.
Gotta love the internet tough guys. I have no doubt that you probably are ex-military and a martial arts student, just like you probably don't doubt that I'm a lawyer.
i know how to use super glue. doesn't mean i should have to just because some jerk was hugged too much as a child and can't deal with losing except to destroy hundreds of dollars of another man's property. besides, broken arms dont take months to heal, and is a very effective learning experience.
Certainly. It's a brilliant lesson I'm trying to teach my kids.
"Someone does something you don't like? Respond with a massive ammount of violence and bodily harm! The police will never get involved if you assault others for breaking your things. Now go beat you sister, she broke that train the other day."
I'm not saying stand there gawping as someone slowly pulls each model apart, occasionally saying 'Please don't do that'. Pick 'em up and move 'em away, pin them to the floor. Whatever. Don't hurt them beyond that though because the law is not your friend beyond that.
And my wife, who had a broken arm, assures me they can take months to heal depending on how clean the break is, where it is, blood supply, etc.
dont worry. i wouldn't know how to break a bone if i wanted to. a punch in the nose and a demand to replace the broken stuff should suffice. works against most wannabe bullies anyway.
i know this is pretty rare occurance, but in my years of playing everything from football to magic: the Gathering, i've never seen some poor losers like SOME 40k players. it almost doesn't shock me that one of these people would break someone else's minis over a game. pretty pathetic.
Personally, I wouldn't throw a punch full stop. Nor push them. Too much of a chance for my taste that they'd fall and so some damage to themselves.
Yeah, it's exceptionally pathetic to smash a model because you've lost. I remember one thread where it was mentioned someone was walking around demolishing models for a competition because he wanted his friend to win.
Equally, though, I've got to admit, I feel it's pretty low to start swinging because a model, or even a number of them, has gotten smashed. They're just not worth being violent over.
Jon Garrett wrote:
"Someone does something you don't like? Respond with a massive ammount of violence and bodily harm! The police will never get involved if you assault others for breaking your things. Now go beat you sister, she broke that train the other day."
I neither condem nor condone the start of the thread, but your now moving the goal posts set in the thread. Your first sentence is a red herring. It is NOT "someone does something you dont like", The correct sentence is "someone is intentionally and willfully destroying your property".
Subsitute "destruction of expensive toy" with to put his foot through your car window(side not front nor back), or your house window. Given GW prices is roughly equivilant. Do you have a right to stop them from said destruction? I'm not talking beat the snot out of said person, but a good hard shove or punch to the gut(which wont do long term harm) may or may not be in order, depending on your juristiction.
As far as I see it, is someone accidentally breaks something it's not a big deal, of course it depends on the damage.
However if someone is deliberately breaking your model(s), not just one, more than one, you have every right to force them to stop if they do not respond to you stating the need to. Don't just jump someone, give them fair warning.
I neither condem nor condone the start of the thread, but your now moving the goal posts set in the thread. Your first sentence is a red herring. It is NOT "someone does something you dont like", The correct sentence is "someone is intentionally and willfully destroying your property".
Subsitute "destruction of expensive toy" with to put his foot through your car window, or your house window. Given GW prices is roughly equivilant. Do you have a right to stop them from said destruction? I'm not talking beat the snot out of said person, but a good hard shove or s punch to the gut(which wont do long term harm) may or may not be in order, depending on your juristiction.
I've never said you don't have the right to defend your property. Please, feel free to check the various other posts in the thread. Including the one you quoted from.
I'm not saying stand there gawping as someone slowly pulls each model apart, occasionally saying 'Please don't do that'. Pick 'em up and move 'em away, pin them to the floor. Whatever. Don't hurt them beyond that though because the law is not your friend beyond that.
You are correct, though. I should have been more accurate in that statement. It is about destroying property, but equally, there is a limit to what you can do to defend that property. The gentleman I was replying to was talking about breaking the bones of someone who broke his models which, honestly, upset me a little.
Jon Garrett wrote:I've never said you don't have the right to defend your property. Please, feel free to check the various other posts in the thread. Including the one you quoted from.
No, I'm quoting THAT particular one for a reason. YOU SAID, and shall we quote it again, "Someone does something you dont like" then you hurt them.....is partently false, and a red herring. I dont like it when the guy across cheats, or doesnt bath or bad mouths the girl behind the counter. But thats not the thread, nor what the thread is. You were expanding it to things not even remotely in the thread.
I think that as with most things, the situation should determine your response. For example.
I'm playing a sixteen year old. The sixteen year old grabs and destroys my brand new Ravager which just shot his Predator by throwing it against the wall. Now straight away, this is a sixteen year old. As a fully grown man, I could never justify to the law or myself, marching over there, and breaking every bone in his body. I'm a physically strong man, and I have learnt to control my temper in most situations. Me beating a teenager half to death is not an appropriate response.
Now if this teenager throws the one model and runs away/stops there I won't touch him. However, should he attempt to destroy more of my property, I would instinctively try and physically restrain him. Grappling, headlocking, etc. I wouldn't be attempting to hurt him , but if he's destroying my things, I won't just try and 'shield it', I will take the initiative of making it so he cannot destroy my things.
Adjust the scenario slightly. I'm standing there playing with a fully grown man. He demonstrates throughout the game he is clearly mentally/emotionally unstable/immature. He, like the aforementioned teenager, tries to break my stuff. Again, like before, I will do nothing if he stops at one model/outburst, but will physically intervene past that. Now as he is a fully grown man, I run a much greater risk in this. If I can subdue him easily, or he comes to his senses, no harm will be inflicted. But if I'm attempting to stop him from breaking my things by intervening, from thrusting myself between my stuff and him, or grabbing his arm, and he attempts to go for me, I won't pull my punches so to speak. Two grown men are far too capable of hurting each other, and at the end of the day, I would rather it was him on the floor than me. I wouldn't escalate it by attempting to punch him in the face straight off the bat, as some have said, but if I'm grabbing his arm, and he turns and tries to swing for me, the gloves are off as far as I'm concerned. He would have made the transition from damaging my property to actually assaulting me. And at the end of the day, when you are in a physical situation like that, which has become a general melee, you put the other guy out hard and fast. Property is irrelevant by that stage of the game, its more about ensuing that YOU are not the one with the broken collarbone.
Change the scenario again( this one actually happened to a friend of mine). A couple of chavs wander in off the street, mock everyone, and are openly aggressive and provocative. One of them breaks a model of mine on the table. I will then tell them to get the hell out before I break them, in no uncertain terms. If they carry on, and reach for another model, I will follow through on my words. Restraining at first of course, like before, but I'll have far less patience with regards to that, and how much effort I put into doing so before just treating it as an general brawl. As there are two, I will not risk me restraining one of the floor and getting kicked in the head by his friend, I'd rather put one of them down and out nice and quickly, and then restrain his friend.
Context is everything.
mrsmith wrote:
dont worry. i wouldn't know how to break a bone if i wanted to. a punch in the nose and a demand to replace the broken stuff should suffice. works against most wannabe bullies anyway.
Someone declaring that they'd punch the other fellow in the nose is clearly lacking in fighting experience. Punching someone in the face is a good way to bruise your knuckles, and rarely takes them out in one go (barring mitigating circumstances). A sock to the gut to wind them, a well placed knee to the balls, or an elbow to the jaw are the most efficient ways of incapacitating someone quickly at minimal risk to yourself. Just punching them in the face means you're lashing out with no real idea of how to brawl.
Jon Garrett wrote:...is this an almost adult conversation, with people admitting there wrong and agreeing on things? On the internet? I feel somehow dirty and wrong.
There is one story I would like to bring to the attention of those entertaining the idea that a punch to the face is the best option to this hypothetical situation.
About 3 or 4 years ago in Vancouver there was 2 gay men in a bar, minding there own business doing what they do. Another man at the bar noticed that they were gay and whatever insecurities he had made him think that going over and punching one of these gay men was a good idea. As the 2 men got up to leave, this other guy walks up to them, allegedly called them gay or what ever slur he used and took a shot at one of the men leaving the bar. The man, punched in the head fell and hit his head on the tiled floor which killed him, the man who hit him has been charged with murder.
Now I am all for protection of your property but one must understand the risks involved with particular avenues of action, rarely is a punch to the face the right way to deal with anything unless there is actual risk to your life. There are many other actions one can take, both physical and not to diffuse a situation, and the mod's request to not advocate such a risky action should be adhered to.
Thats not to say you shouldn't have the right to physically stop a person from destroying your property (and those old enough to understand the risks involved are free to act how they want) but giving others, especially the impressionable the idea that that responding to a level 5 situation with a level 9 answer is well, its wrong.
Jon Garrett wrote:...is this an almost adult conversation, with people admitting there wrong and agreeing on things? On the internet? I feel somehow dirty and wrong.
Fine fine, your a butthead. Happy now?
The internet is whole again. /B/ rejoices, or at least oozes more merrily.
Fifty wrote:brettz123, there have been plenty of legal cases in which violence has been regarded as an acceptable (thought not necessarily only) response. I very much doubt that any of those situations involved toy soldiers.
Please reread my post and you will see that I wasn''t saying anything about toy soldiers specifically. The question is one of property it doesn't matter if that is toy soldiers or something else.
And if you read my entire post you will notice that I said you have the right to defend your property (within reason) but you have no right to hurt somebody after the fact. But you certainly can stop someone from destroying your property.... now either way I would very much suggest that you not do anything that causes serious harm as you will probably be charged with something. The amount of force you are allowed to use has to be within reason.
yournamehere wrote:There is one story I would like to bring to the attention of those entertaining the idea that a punch to the face is the best option to this hypothetical situation.
About 3 or 4 years ago in Vancouver there was 2 gay men in a bar, minding there own business doing what they do. Another man at the bar noticed that they were gay and whatever insecurities he had made him think that going over and punching one of these gay men was a good idea. As the 2 men got up to leave, this other guy walks up to them, allegedly called them gay or what ever slur he used and took a shot at one of the men leaving the bar. The man, punched in the head fell and hit his head on the tiled floor which killed him, the man who hit him has been charged with murder.
Now I am all for protection of your property but one must understand the risks involved with particular avenues of action, rarely is a punch to the face the right way to deal with anything unless there is actual risk to your life. There are many other actions one can take, both physical and not to diffuse a situation, and the mod's request to not advocate such a risky action should be adhered to.
Thats not to say you shouldn't have the right to physically stop a person from destroying your property (and those old enough to understand the risks involved are free to act how they want) but giving others, especially the impressionable the idea that that responding to a level 5 situation with a level 9 answer is well, its wrong.
Because a death caused by a hateful attack based on pure bigotry and stupidity is the exact same scenario as a death caused by an action that was taken to protect your property......
If you attack property, you should expect that the property owner will take action to protect it. Any attempt to destroy something that is not yours = risk. A homophobic attack has nothing to do with it.
And just to clarify: No, I did not advance my argument to "Murder for the Emparah!". But accidents happen. If we want to move down the avenue of what-if's we could argue that the guy jumping on my model can slip on it and fall and bash his head against the table and die. Now his family will sue you because it was your model he slipped on.
yournamehere wrote:There is one story I would like to bring to the attention of those entertaining the idea that a punch to the face is the best option to this hypothetical situation.
About 3 or 4 years ago in Vancouver there was 2 gay men in a bar, minding there own business doing what they do. Another man at the bar noticed that they were gay and whatever insecurities he had made him think that going over and punching one of these gay men was a good idea. As the 2 men got up to leave, this other guy walks up to them, allegedly called them gay or what ever slur he used and took a shot at one of the men leaving the bar. The man, punched in the head fell and hit his head on the tiled floor which killed him, the man who hit him has been charged with murder.
Now I am all for protection of your property but one must understand the risks involved with particular avenues of action, rarely is a punch to the face the right way to deal with anything unless there is actual risk to your life. There are many other actions one can take, both physical and not to diffuse a situation, and the mod's request to not advocate such a risky action should be adhered to.
Thats not to say you shouldn't have the right to physically stop a person from destroying your property (and those old enough to understand the risks involved are free to act how they want) but giving others, especially the impressionable the idea that that responding to a level 5 situation with a level 9 answer is well, its wrong.
Because a death caused by a hateful attack based on pure bigotry and stupidity is the exact same scenario as a death caused by an action that was taken to protect your property......
If you attack property, you should expect that the property owner will take action to protect it. Any attempt to destroy something that is not yours = risk. A homophobic attack has nothing to do with it.
And just to clarify: No, I did not advance my argument to "Murder for the Emparah!". But accidents happen. If we want to move down the avenue of what-if's we could argue that the guy jumping on my model can slip on it and fall and bash his head against the table and die. Now his family will sue you because it was your model he slipped on.
What??? lol, you missed my point... The point doesn't really have to do with how the attack happened, it has to do with the fact that punching someone in the face can have reproductions such as death or serious injury from a single punch so if you choose to do so you must understand what can happen.
Many times younger people dont understand that yet so advocating it on the net is not something you want to be doing, and is something the mods dont want.
If you are an adult and understand the risks involved then you are free to take whatever action you want, like I said, protect yourself and your belongings but use appropriate force.
Pfft, easy. Give them a call and describe their bedroom in detail, down to the last douche-esqeu poster on the wall, and then say quietly; "do you think you're safe here?"
