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Post by: UNREALPwnage
Well, seeing that every other low tier army is being redone I am starting to believe Wood Elves will be announced in April. So, my question too you is what do you want to see in the new Wood Elf army book?
For me: I want to see 10 Point Eternal Guard, NO max size on Glade Riders, and lower point waywatchers.
For Models: I want too see plastic Eternal Guard, Plastic Treekin, and any other plastics, but those are not too necessary I think.
Additonal Ideas: Wardancers should have a 5+ ward. They should have a 3+ Ward Dance, a killing blow dance, a +1 attack dance, and a +1 Stregnth dance. I think the Wardancers should have ASF reguardless of dance and their statline should be the same.
What about you guys, what do you think?
I will keep this page up to date with what people would like to see, and then we could try to go for a petition on what we would like to see in the new Wood Elf book.
THanks
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Waydancers are possibly my favourite unit of any army WHFB or 40k. Anything to make them fluffy and viable in the rules would be good.
imho the dance ward and ASF makes sense
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Post by: kizzdougs
The ++5 would have to be a wardance. Alternatively they could have a special parry save (as if the were using a shield).
Plastic Characters and Warhawks would be very cool.
I wouldn't be surprised it they get a giant plastic Treeman, in line with GW's current love for large monsters 
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Post by: boogeyman
I would like to see everything in plastic. 
For the army, I would like to see the eternal guard have a 5+ ward save instead of the armor save.
I would like to see glade guard bows for all the units.
The wardancers should be able to do a dance any time not just in combat and there could be more dances that provide an extra move or an additional -1 to hit from ranged attacks.
I also think some of the units could use a point cost drop.
I wouldn't mind seeing a new unit of beast experts (can't call them masters as no wood elf would call themselves a master of a wild animal) either.
That is all I can think of off the top of my head at the moment.
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Post by: WombleJim
I really do hope Wood Elves get an update soon, knowing our luck it will be Brets next!
Model wise the plastics are obvious; Treekin (even though I have gone to the trouble of converting 16!), Eternal Guard (again would be annoyed as started converting my Unit of 28!) a plastic Treeman would be nice as well as Wardancers, would also like to see a Platic Lord/Mage set much like the High Elves and Empire have now, that would tickle my converting bone. Would also love to see a plastic Great Eagle (the only thing metal in my army as it stands)
Rules wise I would like it if the unit cap on dryads was removed just because I have always wanted to try a skirmishing hoarde
Eternal Guard need to be less squishy so they can stand up against other rank and file, I like boogeymans idea of a ward save of some description, other tweaks may come to mind later but can't think of anything different from what opthers have said.
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Post by: gmaleron
I would love to see all of the following:
-Cheaper points on most units/iteams across the board (love the 10 point Eternal Guard Idea)
-Plastic Eternal Guard, Treekin, Treeman, wardancers
-Better Rules for Waywatchers (miss the appearing anywhere technique pretty much)
-No penalty for shooting through woods
-Lore of Athel Loren a little better
Fix these and i would be a much happier person, however i think the nod may have already been given for Tomb Kings in April, but its just the grapevine so one can hope
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Post by: RiTides
Ranked dryads like are pictured in the rulebook 
Edit: However, I see no reason to think that wood elves will actually be redone soon, as all those that are being done at the moment (Orcs & Goblins, Tomb Kings) had been in dire need of an update for much longer, both with models ( TK) and rules (O&G). The fact that the wood elf rules just became dated with the advent of 8th edition means they're much further back in the queue, perhaps only just having been put into it :-/
There have also been no rumors of wood elves coming up soon, unfortunately, that I have seen. Only wishful thinking... which I am more than happy to do, but I don't want people to get their hopes up about something very unlikely to happen for a long time.
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Post by: Daba
Since this is just a wishlist:
Wardancers made really good, since now skirmish is a weakness rather than strength. Maybe the 'always draw' dance to come back. Or maybe give them 'loose formation' like they had before 6th, where they weren't true skirmishers.
Ranked Dryads, maybe aspects coming back as options.
T8 Treeman.
Chariots, and Wild Rider Chariots.
Waywatcher traps back.
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Post by: RiTides
T8  . I guess it's possible, as the giant spider has 8 wounds... but generally, "8" is a crazy number, especially with wood elves having access to lore of life and being able to increase toughness by +2 or +4. I'm assuming it would max out at 10, but still... that would be pretty much insane 
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Post by: Daba
Well, it is wackyhammer this edition, and if anything makes sense to have extremely high toughness, it's the Treeman (the 3rd ed one had T8 IIRC, at least for the Hero/Lord Treeman).
Also, since you can always wound on a 6 now, T8-10 isn't that invulnerable. Med-High S attacks can wound it on a 6, taking out any Scaly Skin save while low S attacks can always wound it on a 6 with it's save (pretty much exactly as it is now, but tougher against high S).
It would be nice to have it as a defensive powerhouse rather than the offensive powerhouses you see in many monsters today.
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Post by: UNREALPwnage
Never heard of Waywathcer traps, can you elaborate on them for me?
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Post by: Daba
In 5th edition, they used to set traps in forests.
If an enemy charges through a forest with Waywatchers in, they set off traps and roll D6 on a table which cause things from D6 S4 hits to a S7 D6 wounds hit on a character or not letting enemies attack if the fail a S test.
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Post by: lizardgod14
as a fellow wood elf player i would like to see the points go down,
have more modols in plastic
and a unit of tree kin that have some form of wood elf in their branches to give them a ranged attack
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
How about "Samara" ranged attacks
nb Basically samara are winged seeds eg Ash tree seeds
Treekin could get an upgrade for deadly slicing winged seeds like shuriken.
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Post by: Squash
How about as an army it doesn't operate in ranks? Every unit is a skirmisher.
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Post by: Daba
Skirmishers don't function in 8th edition rules.
Maybe an army-wide special rule that lets some units behave like 7th ed skirmishers.
Probably still no good in the face of deathstar hordes though.
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Post by: HoverBoy
Or a rule that lets wood elf skirmishers actually have ranks in CC, that'd be awesome.
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Post by: Daba
My main problem with Skirmishers in 8th is they are more unwieldy than block infantry, not less. They're pretty much the opposite of what they're meant to represent.
But thematically, the only Wood Elf units that really 'skirmish' like that would be Waywatchers and scouts considering:
Dryads can become blocks (like they used to)
Wardancers were not strictly skirmishers before, but had a loose formation but behaved like a block in combat.
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Post by: gmaleron
Another thing to change with the new Wood Elf Book when it decides to come out: Make the forest spirit 5+ ward save like the ward save in the rulebook, not the dumb magic weapons ignore it rule. Just played a demon player and found out how bad it really is without a save.
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Post by: DeadBabySoup
After reading some battle reports, forums, and the WE book, I think the eternal guard should be stubborn either on their own, or perhaps if a hero joins them but allow that hero to choose whatever magic weapon he/she wants without the stubborn loss.
Giant plastic treeman with tons of modeling bitz could be cool.
a lord on a giant bear needs to happen, period!
Are wild riders even good? If not, because of 8th ruleset, they need to polish these guys up!
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Post by: Kirbinator
DeadBabySoup wrote:a lord on a giant bear needs to happen, period!
The first time I read this I saw "A lord on a giant beer needs to happen, period!" As awesome as a Wood Elf Noble riding around on a giant barrel of Guinness would be, it would probably occur on the Dwarven side of things first. 
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Post by: DeadBabySoup
wood elves get drunk too... perhaps wine though so a lord on a big gallon jug of carlo rossi would be more fitting!
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Post by: UNREALPwnage
I think WE druids would be cool, like they could buy differnt forms for a set amount of points and they can chose what form they want. They could be like a bear, eagle, snake, and something esle cool.
I would just be happy if they dropped all core by 2 pts, made plastic eternal guard and treekin. I would want themto give us a couple more lores, and let lv 1&2s take life and beast. I don't want any magic items or sprites to change because they are actually good. Ranked dyrads would be cool aslo, especially if they had a special rule that would allow them to get 2 attacks for models in the second rank and back. That way a hoard of 40 could have 60 attacks.
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Post by: boogeyman
The druid idea is  I like it 
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Post by: RiTides
gmaleron wrote:Another thing to change with the new Wood Elf Book when it decides to come out: Make the forest spirit 5+ ward save like the ward save in the rulebook, not the dumb magic weapons ignore it rule. Just played a demon player and found out how bad it really is without a save.
I've had this matchup... for a forest spirit heavy army, it's virtually a no-win scenario against daemons.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Like the concept of shapeshifters Unreal (hope I have interpreted correctly)
Not sure about Druids though, doesn't feel right somehow for Wood Elves.
I always liked the concept of singers/weavers and something more based on Nature Magic would be better for transmogrification imho
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Post by: boogeyman
Aren't druids based on nature magic?
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Sort of
but I think of the overall character of Druidism as different to the way Wood Elves interact with Athel Loern.
They were more priest like with apsects covering theology, astronomy and geneally more politaical than how I understand Spettweavers and mages to be.
NB not talking about modern druids here but I feel the Druids were too specifically located in time and place to be applicable to Athel Loren.
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Post by: Platuan4th
To be fair, CBB, I think Unreal meant more along the lines of D&D/Warcraft Druids more than the historical.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Ah! not at all familiar* with those chaps Platuan.
My comments are purely personal opinions and don't wish to derail the thread with my musings. Guess it's only a name and as I said I like the idea a lot.
*pun not intentional but I still quite like it
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Post by: DeadBabySoup
druids, spell singers- they is all the same to me, peeps who cast spells
I think that there would be only minor differences in what the two represent gamewise and modelwise, though they would have to rewrite some fluff.
Adding Animals would be a better take on it from both fluff, game and modelling. I can hardly believe that there are only tree's elves, birds and horses in Athel Loren (oh and the occasional dragon and Unicorn if you are a conversionairrrrrr).
Beastmen and shapshifters would both be pretty kool...
Oh and a lord on a GIANT BEER!!!!
bear I mean
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Giant BEAR
GW won't do anything like encourage ten year olds to drink alcohol
not for health or ethical reasons but if they spend their pennies on alcopops there will be less to spend on giant BEARS!
*removes la tete du cynique*
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Post by: WombleJim
Just had a great idea for a new unit (getting inspiration from some coverted unit fillers I saw whilst browsing the net)
What does my fellow Asrai think of a Spite Swarm unit? would give us a cheap roadblock, a cheaper alternative to warmachine hunting then Glade Riders and should fit in the fluff quite nicely.
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Post by: jim30
Personally I'd make glade guard 10pts, but instead play on the theme of them being the best shots in the old world by having a range of 'shooting upgrades' being purchaseable. E.g. you could buy 'killing blow' or 'rapid fire (reroll misses) or 'armour piercing' shots for X pts per model, limited to one upgrade per unit (no duplications).
Keep Dryads as they are, but make them a 5+ ward regardless. Give Wardancers 5+ ward too.
GG need some form of save, but not sure how to make it fluffy.
I'd definitely give access to beasts & life for Lvl 1-2s.
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Post by: gmaleron
Think the GG armor save is fine the way it is as it fits them rather well, however I do like the idea of buying upgrades, however I think the rapid fire should come standard and then if they wanted to do a shot with "armor piercing" they would only shoot once. This would keep them at 12 points. Also give this same rule to the Glade Riders but then lower them to maybe 20 or 21 pts. This would make them that much better and actually worth their points.
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Post by: DeadBabySoup
gmaleron wrote:Think the GG armor save is fine the way it is as it fits them rather well, however I do like the idea of buying upgrades, however I think the rapid fire should come standard and then if they wanted to do a shot with "armor piercing" they would only shoot once. This would keep them at 12 points. Also give this same rule to the Glade Riders but then lower them to maybe 20 or 21 pts. This would make them that much better and actually worth their points.
I like this, almost like a SM boltgun, except they could still move and shoot, but the choice would be between two shots at certain distance, or one shot at a certain distance with negative modifier to armor saves, like they need to take that extra time to hit weak points in the armor or vital spots.
This would help when facing horde armies or elite ones, seeing as how we have very few core choices.
oh, and a lord on a giant bear... I just saw an old citadel wood elf bear go for 30$ on ebay...
Seeing as how I've never actually played 8th ed. yet, how did the WE shoot and flee tactic lose its luster? Is it easier to route them on a charge now?
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Post by: Kanluwen
All I want to see really, aside from the entire book being brought up to snuff...
Lords with certain Kindred upgrades make those kindreds count as Core.
I just want to be able to field an all Waywatcher/ambushing army. Is that too much to ask? 
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Post by: HoverBoy
Kanluwen wrote:All I want to see really, aside from the entire book being brought up to snuff...
Lords with certain Kindred upgrades make those kindreds count as Core.
I just want to be able to field an all Waywatcher/ambushing army. Is that too much to ask?
I am sorry good sir but you'll have to take an SC to do that.
You'll see im right... eventually.
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Post by: gmaleron
On the topic of Special Characters that is one thing they really need to change as well. The only ones we have plainly are not worth taking and has anyone else noticed where every book has like 5 or 6 we have 3? Why not a waywatcher special character that allows you to field Waywatchers as special choices or even a glade guard one that can chose to be mounted and become a glade rider and gives the squad he is with killing blow or something like that. Some more variety and better characters would be nice as well.
Another thing the WE's lack is an artillery piece. I know maybe it is not neccesarily fluffy but I think for the same amount of points or even boost them a little a treman could pick up and throw rocks like a stone thrower. Make them maybe 300pts. Even and then run them the way they are except they are able to throw rocks when not in combat. And i will say it again they need to fix our f*$&ing ward save to make it just a normal one.
And instead of a bear I vote for a guy on a Forest Wolf, If it looks good on Thunderwolf Cav it will look good for Wood Elves
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Post by: timetowaste85
My friend and I (he just listened to me say it) came up with a quick fix bandaid for the wood elves until the new book manages to come out. Since skirmishing is hard on units now, and wood elves are driven by it, here is a quick fix, plus the ward save issue
1) Wood Elf units are stubborn within 6" of a forest of any type
2) Ward save is 5+ all the time
These two fixes will make wood elves playable. Will they be great? No. But it'll fix two of the hardest hits in the book. Thinking about calling GW and asking what they think about just adding that to the FAQ...would take 5 minutes of somebody's time there
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Post by: UNREALPwnage
That woudl be sweet, if they valued our input on the issue. If they did, they would have released a new WE armybook with the new 8th edditon BRB becasue of the way the army not nerffed. Or they would have put WE before O&G.
The Druid idea was more of a shapeshifter. He would be nice. I would put it in units as a supprise since many armies have assassins now it will be our own little close combat trick to try to even things out. They should also give waywatcers Multiple Shotsx3 with no penalty for firing multiple shots.
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Post by: DeadBabySoup
UNREALPwnage wrote:
The Druid idea was more of a shapeshifter. He would be nice. I would put it in units as a supprise since many armies have assassins now it will be our own little close combat trick to try to even things out. They should also give waywatcers Multiple Shotsx3 with no penalty for firing multiple shots.
This is a keeper, I would like to have an "assassin role" in a WE army and it could fit the fluff!
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Post by: UNREALPwnage
What would you like to see in the new tree lore?
I would like a spell that turns other terrain pices to forest and a spell that acts as the moonstone. I would also like to see dryads summoned from forest in the same way zombies are summoned.
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Post by: Bastion of Mediocrity
Cool thread,
I would like to see a unit for each kindred
Glade guard bows on all non-mounted elves
Stags and Unicorns with Fast Cavalry
Saeith (sp? the spear-staves) that act as spears and 2 hand weapons when on foot, available to all characters
Eternal warrior = fighting style that gives a 5+ parry save to any model with a saeith
Asrai mastery of the Bow: all wood elf characters that did not move can fire a # of arrows = their Attacks profile.
I know, I know, I am SO Dreaming . . .also instead of beer or wine I see Asrai more as apple brandy drinkers
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Post by: Cryonicleech
The War-Eagles could use some kind of War-Dancer on them, so they hit harder.
All WE bows at S4.
A Druid Character would be cool.
Less expensive Waywatchers, with a rule to make them S5 bows when within half range or so. Or they could stay the same cost with the S5 boost.
Some kind of option for ranked Dryads, but not a replacement for skirmish Dryads.
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Post by: Kanluwen
No "wolf riders", but "hunting packs" of Fey Wolves accompanying 'Huntmaster of Orion' characters would be cool.
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Post by: RiTides
WombleJim wrote:Just had a great idea for a new unit (getting inspiration from some coverted unit fillers I saw whilst browsing the net)
What does my fellow Asrai think of a Spite Swarm unit? would give us a cheap roadblock, a cheaper alternative to warmachine hunting then Glade Riders and should fit in the fluff quite nicely.
Wow, I think this is a great idea! It'd be awesome if they could somehow take on the ability of a unit near to them, imitating them like the spites in the artwork seem to be imitating warriors, etc. But that is a fantastic unit idea, reminds me of whelps for trollbloods in warmachine/hordes.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
I would like that
Going to scratch some "Hounds of Ariel" for want of a better name. Spites but bigger and meaner looking than the piddly fairy blobs from the Battalion.
(apologies to anyone who likes them, which is good- personal taste etc)
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Post by: Daba
Count enemies fighting Forest Spirits (and maybe Wardancers too) as being in a normal forest.
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Post by: boogeyman
RiTides wrote:WombleJim wrote:Just had a great idea for a new unit (getting inspiration from some coverted unit fillers I saw whilst browsing the net)
What does my fellow Asrai think of a Spite Swarm unit? would give us a cheap roadblock, a cheaper alternative to warmachine hunting then Glade Riders and should fit in the fluff quite nicely.
Wow, I think this is a great idea! It'd be awesome if they could somehow take on the ability of a unit near to them, imitating them like the spites in the artwork seem to be imitating warriors, etc. But that is a fantastic unit idea, reminds me of whelps for trollbloods in warmachine/hordes.
I agree, this would be a cool new unit, with great converting options.
Still like the shape changing character too.
I was also thinking that just removing some of the restrictions from their special rules would go a long, long way.
Forrest spirit ward save good against magic too.
5+ AS for eternal guard = 5+ parry or ward save.
Lethal shot for waywatchers good for all ranges not just short.
Wardancers can choose a dance all the time and not just in combat. Maybe even add a couple of new dances like one to add d6" to their move, or the moonstone trick, or an additional -1 to hit from shooting.
spell singers can choose life or beasts
There are probably more, but I can't think of them at the moment.
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Post by: Kanluwen
I got to thinking a bit more about Wood Elves today and had an interesting little thought.
Rather than taking a normal 'Champion' in their units, why not give them the option to take a 'Foreststrider'--essentially, a Mage with no real abilities other than allowing them to hop from cover to cover?
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Post by: Formosa
im probebly going to get shot down here but... as an army wide rule
Bow Masters: Any wood elf model may fire shots equal to the number of basic attacks on there profile, this may not be conbined with arcane arrows or bows.
All wood Elf Bows are str4
Wood elf lords bow shots are Killing blow
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Post by: boogeyman
Formosa wrote:im probebly going to get shot down here but... as an army wide rule
Bow Masters: Any wood elf model may fire shots equal to the number of basic attacks on there profile, this may not be conbined with arcane arrows or bows.
All wood Elf Bows are str4
Wood elf lords bow shots are Killing blow
IMHO bow masters is too strong and not going to affect many units. The only unit that has more than one attack and has a bow is the champion for the warhawk riders. Otherwise it will only affect characters and the bow of loren gives them that ability for 30 points more.
I don't mind the str4 bows, I would even settle for the str4 at short range like the glade guard long bows now.
Wood elf characters can take the waywatcher kindred and get that killing blow ability already.
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Post by: Glyph47
I like the idea of the huntmaster with wolves and also the spite swarm. I think the codex could use a a bit of an update and would mainly like to see wardancers getting a slight ward buff etc, I honestly do not have any problems with the way the models look right now though it would be very nice to have plastic eternal guard/treekin and maybe a new version of treeman. Other than that I would not mind another branchwraith model other than drycha, I currently use a slightly converted normal dryad for branchwraiths. Would be nice to see something new there.
If glade riders had GG bows I might use them.
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Post by: Krellnus
Honestly, I think spellsingers should get access to life and beasts and spellweavers also get access to light. Also, instead of Kindreds as an upgrade, just make them have different statlines and rules in the book but keep the ability to take 'vanilla' nobles as a cheaper, kinda jack of all trades, master of none.
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Post by: DeadBabySoup
gmaleron wrote:
And instead of a bear I vote for a guy on a Forest Wolf, If it looks good on Thunderwolf Cav it will look good for Wood Elves
Meh! Gobbos have wolves already... bears are bigger, bears are tougher, and could help end the "every army gets a dragon to make them feel better) and as for hunting packs? well aren't the wood elves practically fused in with nature? Doesn't make sense that they would have to have a pack master to "herd" their allies, and what happens if the packmaster dies? Some thought on this might help the idea.
Lore spells- I was thinking about one of the wood elves greatest strengths ( or what was one of their greatest strangths) the manipulation of the terrain. Someone already posted the ability to turn terrain into forests I was thinking a spell that could allow units to teleport around using "forests" as hubs. It would really make for some dynamic movement around the board which could help to counter horde armies.
How about a spell called overgrowth, a small impassible terrain block that you can cast in front of units, causing them to have to move around it, or binds them and prevents them from moving for a turn or two- might help with the shoot and move tactic of the WE's. Also, this could correlate to the spite swarm idea, essentially summoning spites instead of the terrain piece with the spites performing in various ways based on what kindred the caster has.
I definately like the idea of raising dryads too to whoever mentioned that!!!
So far we can somewhat agree on what needs to be fixed (basically everything) but lets focus on the specifics and get some of the more predominant ideas together... who knows, maybe a fandex of some sort!!!
Units to change model-wise:
eternal guard- no other army has to have an all metal troop choice period, and because this unit is basically a need in this army as it stands, shelling out all that cash is a major deterrent.
Treekin- at 23$ a pop, I could get 6 river trolls instead and still be way ahead of the game.
Wardancers- I believe they're ok with being metal, maybe an upgraded look to something non -transexual...
Waywatchers- again fine with them being metal, but maybe a newer look or more variety.
Treeman- an all plastic kit with options would make this a win win. Options to make a treeman ancient would be a double win.
Wild riders and warhawk riders- Again I'm fine with this as VC have their cavalry costing in the 100$ range but that money counts where it matters and these two units should reflect the same. the Warhawk riders (the riders) need a modeling upgrade.
Additional (new) units:
Sprite swarms: perfect for roadblocking and war machine hunting, (their small size perhaps ignores armor but attacks at a weaker strength?)
Shape shifters: The DE assassin or Goblin Skullker so to speak, can hide in troop choice units.
Packs of some sort but no pack master? Think forest think animals... bears? boars?
Special characters: Ideas needed... Lord on Giant Bear (couldn't resist hehe..), upgrade the lord on giant eagle and give him a name... skaw the falconer needs to come pack to us as well...
Magic: Druid vs Spell weaver/singer can they preform different roles. (while it has been mentioned that druids are more clerical by nature... no pun intended hehe) historically weren't they more wild and cultish?
Overgrowth: as mentioned earlier
Treeporting: as mentioned earlier
Summon Spites
Summon Dryads
Access to multiple lores: I here really feel that the wood elves need a nature magic of their own, or the ability to pool from multiple lores with spells that have a basis in nature...
Fixing the Broken (again, trying to pool up ideas that have been tossed around as well as adding some thought to them, in no way do all of them have to stick...):
GG- drop in points, tougher bow rules, 1 shot moving, 2 shots standing still, or one shot standing still with higher strength, better save (I have thought about this considerably, how about a dodge save as they are the fastest army in the game minus elves, but they don't wear armor so they would get an unmodified 5 or 6 + save... might be interesting if someone did the math).
GR- drop in points, carry GG bows
Eternal guard- point drop, stubborn if champion is taken, rather than a hero/lord ???
Dryads- ability to rank up or skirmish. (to add fluffwise, I really don't see these folk running from a battle if an army is invading the forest... dryads and eternal guard should reflect some sort of anvil unit for that style of play option in the army, and while they will certainly be smaller than most other anvils, they need something to keep them in the fight) +5 ward save??
Wardancers- more useful dances, ability to choose same dance over and over, an added movement ( d6) dance, +5 ward save.
Waywatchers- higher str arrows, traps, hits ignore armor.
Wild riders- open for suggestions
Warhawk riders- again open for suggestions, perhaps a infiltrate or a flanking or reserve special rule...
Giant eagles- suggestions if any is needed?
Treekin- suggestions if anything needs to change other than the model
Treeman- T8, mobile catapult with perhaps limited ammo (1 or 2 boulders a game).
Lords/heros - different kindreds (emphasis on useful ones) suggestions needed
Special characters- more of them BRING BACK SKAW THE FALCONER!!!!
Some other things to think about as well
Centaurs
Bird swarms (black birds, ravens etc...)
Of course I probably missed some stuff, but CC is what makes the forum go round so...
Unreal, if you want to use this as a basis to collect info and tweak it, it be fine by me matey....
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Post by: Kanluwen
DeadBabySoup wrote:gmaleron wrote:
And instead of a bear I vote for a guy on a Forest Wolf, If it looks good on Thunderwolf Cav it will look good for Wood Elves
Meh! Gobbos have wolves already... bears are bigger, bears are tougher, and could help end the "every army gets a dragon to make them feel better) and as for hunting packs? well aren't the wood elves practically fused in with nature? Doesn't make sense that they would have to have a pack master to "herd" their allies, and what happens if the packmaster dies? Some thought on this might help the idea.
Who says the Packmaster would be "herding" their allies?
Think of it as less of a "Wolf Pack and a Packmaster",but as a "Pack of Wolves and a Wood Elf Huntsman" functioning more like the way that we see Rangers and their animal companions in D&D work.
I'd kind of have the wolves acting as an independent melee unit, but the Huntsman is primarily a ranged unit--but the two synergize when they're operating in tandem.
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Post by: DeadBabySoup
meh, gobbos have wolves...
VC have wolves
too...........much..............wolf...............
I like the hunstman outlook though, I didn't think of it like that... what about a hawkmaster or falconer (skaw)?
Anything but more wolves.......
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Post by: Kanluwen
No, Goblins have Worgs and VC have Dire Wolves.
With Goblins, they break the wolves to their will. With VC, the wolves are undead and just do their own thing.
What better creature to see in an army themed around nature and the "Wild Hunt"?
A "Hawkmaster" or "Falconer" would really be useless. What good is a little tiny bird going to do?
And if they become a big creature; how does that differentiate them from the Hawk Riders?
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Wild Hunt reminds me of Herne so War Stags of Athel Loren would be suitably majestic.
They could be flesh eating stags.
AFAIK no one does deer in fantasy, though there are probably some strange folks that into fantasy about deer!
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Post by: Kanluwen
Uh, you mean other than GW.
There's already a Wood Elf Lord mounted on a Stag.
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Post by: DeadBabySoup
Kanluwen wrote:No, Goblins have Worgs and VC have Dire Wolves.
With Goblins, they break the wolves to their will. With VC, the wolves are undead and just do their own thing.
What better creature to see in an army themed around nature and the "Wild Hunt"?
A "Hawkmaster" or "Falconer" would really be useless. What good is a little tiny bird going to do?
And if they become a big creature; how does that differentiate them from the Hawk Riders?
I believe they're called goblin "wolf" riders.... that and the models look like "wolves," not worgs.
tiny little birds could ignore armor, become rather difficult to hit, and provide a much needed unit capable of tying flankers up... wolves... well they tote gobbos around, come back from the dead, and... hang out with wood elves on the weekend?
even 40k has wolves, space wolvessssssssssssssssssssssssss
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Wild Hunt reminds me of Herne so War Stags of Athel Loren would be suitably majestic.
They could be flesh eating stags.
AFAIK no one does deer in fantasy, though there are probably some strange folks that into fantasy about deer!
I would rather see some killer bambis before more wolves lol... maybe carnivore badgers, or man-eating, flying squirrels...
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
A half remembered image now you mention it Kanners.
A unit to go with him would be cool imho
Extra attacks from the antlers.
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Post by: Kanluwen
DeadBabySoup wrote:Kanluwen wrote:No, Goblins have Worgs and VC have Dire Wolves.
With Goblins, they break the wolves to their will. With VC, the wolves are undead and just do their own thing.
What better creature to see in an army themed around nature and the "Wild Hunt"?
A "Hawkmaster" or "Falconer" would really be useless. What good is a little tiny bird going to do?
And if they become a big creature; how does that differentiate them from the Hawk Riders?
I believe they're called goblin "wolf" riders.... that and the models look like "wolves," not worgs.
tiny little birds could ignore armor, become rather difficult to hit, and provide a much needed unit capable of tying flankers up... wolves... well they tote gobbos around, come back from the dead, and... hang out with wood elves on the weekend?
even 40k has wolves, space wolvessssssssssssssssssssssssss
So you're not opposed to Chaos(mortal AND Daemonic in some cases) horses, Undead horses, Elf horses, and Human horses...but more than two races having Wolves of any type means they're "overdone"?
Something isn't right here...
While they don't out and out say they're Worgs, it's pretty much implied from the way they're depicted. The oversized canines, the furred "collar" around their necks, etc are far more distinctive of Worgs/Dire Wolves than "real" wolves.
If nothing else, having the Asrai variant be an "independent unit" that works in tandem with their Huntmaster makes them far different than the Goblins(poke 'em with a stick to get them to work) and the Vampire(they crumble to dust if they get out of line) variants.
If you really need a unit "capable of tying flankers up"--I'd suggest you start looking at Forest Spirits.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Wild Hunt reminds me of Herne so War Stags of Athel Loren would be suitably majestic.
They could be flesh eating stags.
AFAIK no one does deer in fantasy, though there are probably some strange folks that into fantasy about deer!
I would rather see some killer bambis before more wolves lol... maybe carnivore badgers, or man-eating, flying squirrels...
And when I think "Wild Hunt", I think of Goethe's "Erlking".
And in all seriousness: screw stags. They look ridiculous.
There's no need for Elves to be riding around on all kinds of "monstrous mounts". The normal Forest Dragon and Elven Steeds do just fine.
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Post by: HoverBoy
TBH k-nines asa group are quite common and having them participate in multiple armies is no problem. Either way some sort of unique anymal may be a better solution, the bear sounding particularry nice, but that would imply including even more animals in the army. Swapping horses for deer may be a nice start and maybe some sort of big cat for a mount or otherwise (or both) as well.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Yeah...keep the big cats the hell out as mounts. That idea is so stupid that everytime I see it being done for High Elves I want to hit someone.
Simply put: the easiest solution to make the Asrai Wolfpacks unique?
They're the manifestations of lesser Hunting Spirits, drawn to Asrai who've been touched by the Wild Hunt.
Wam, bam, done---unique unit done.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Since when did stags look ridiculous? 
and any more so than wolves. hmmm
As for screwing them, cf my earlier comment about stags and fantasy.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Stags, by themselves, don't look ridiculous.
When you have an elf riding them, however...they tend to.
Make no mistake. I understand that wolves are bland and slightly generic.
But at the same time: what emphasizes the Asrai nature better?
They're intelligent animals with a structured hierarchy--but with an unbridled savagery that cannot really be matched by any creature out there.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Sorry Just don't associate the Wood Elves with the lupine. It doesn't fit imho. In fantasy the wolf unfortunately is too strongly associated with the dark/evil forces. Wolves are more ridiculous with riders. There anatomy is totally unsuited for anything bigger than a Night Goblin. No other faction has deer so the woodland browser would be uniquely Wood Elven. Intelligent, heirachical and savage suits other forces too. Nope just don't see the association. Nor sadly do I make a connection between the Elf King and Herne the Hunter. Think as ever we will have to differ
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Post by: Kanluwen
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Sorry
Just don't associate the Wood Elves with the lupine.
It doesn't fit imho.
In fantasy the wolf unfortunately is too strongly associated with the dark/evil forces.
Not true. The myth of Romulus and Remus are a perfect example of wolves being 'guardians and companions' rather than 'killers'. The Native Americans had plenty of the same mythos associated with wolves. It's really only in medieval Europe that you saw wolves being demonized and painted
Wolves are more ridiculous with riders. There anatomy is totally unsuited for anything bigger than a Night Goblin.
No other faction has deer so the woodland browser would be uniquely Wood Elven.
...And that's why I continually have stressed "no wolf riders"? I mean really, Chibi. I figured the idea of a Wood Elf Hunter being accompanied by a pack of spirits taking the form of a wolf is perfectly Asrai.
Intelligent, heirachical and savage suits other forces too. Nope just don't see the association. Nor sadly do I make a connection between the Elf King and Herne the Hunter.
Think as ever we will have to differ
Ehhh.
Intelligent and structured maybe. But the "savage" part is really common to two factions:
The Asrai and the Beastmen.
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Post by: DeadBabySoup
You can't compare horses and wolves really, because horses have a neutrality to them being a typical animal bred solely for domestication. Wolves do not. They aren't normally domesticated for a purpose that fits mankind.
And while Indians might have revered the wolf, the demonization of wolves wasn't just particular to Europe. All American settlers demonized them as well which in fact, pushed them to the brink of extinction.
Wolves are for the bad guys!!!
Personally, I like the stag model, it fits the fluff and looks pretty badass. It was one of the reasons why I picked WE up. A unit of them would be pretty kool I think.
I'm meh on the big cats too but mountain lions might work but knowing GW, they will probably come out looking like garfield hehe...
I'm definately open to a huntsman concept, I think the way you explained it is right on, just not wolves...
what about owlbears??? or giant rabbits????
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Post by: Kanluwen
DeadBabySoup wrote:
You can't compare horses and wolves really, because horses have a neutrality to them being a typical animal bred solely for domestication. Wolves do not. They aren't normally domesticated for a purpose that fits mankind.
Sure you can compare horses and wolves. Horses have, in Warhammer, always featured attributes of their parent race.
Look at the Chaos Knight's steeds. They'll usually have very subtle mutations that put them as very clearly "Chaos".
Look at the Empire steeds versus the Bretonnian steeds. They're similar, but different. The barding alone sees to that.
Then look at the Elven steeds, especially the Wood Elf ones and the more recent Dragon Prince steeds. They have the almond-shaped eyes and sort of 'perked' ears that mark them as being Elvish.
And who says anything about "domestication"? The Elves have a "God of the Hunt". In fact, Orion is the living avatar of him. Wolves are even called the "Children of Kurunous" in the recent 'Shadow King' novel--where a High Elf lives for a time amongst a pack of wolves, hunting alongside them.
If a High Elf can do it, you can bet your arse a Wood Elf could
And while Indians might have revered the wolf, the demonization of wolves wasn't just particular to Europe. All American settlers demonized them as well which in fact, pushed them to the brink of extinction.
This isn't 100% true.
The European settlers are what pushed them to the brink of extinction. Coyotes were more demonized by the American settlers circa the Western Expansion than wolves were.
Wolves are for the bad guys!!!
Eh. Not in my book.
Personally, I like the stag model, it fits the fluff and looks pretty badass. It was one of the reasons why I picked WE up. A unit of them would be pretty kool I think.
"Cool". The word is "cool".
And the Stag is a recent addition to the Wood Elf line-up. Supposedly it was because someone had been watching "Princess Monoke" but who knows.
For that matter: it's really not a "beast". It's a Forest Spirit that takes the form of a beast. What's wrong with that happening for the wolves, eh?
I'm meh on the big cats too but mountain lions might work but knowing GW, they will probably come out looking like garfield hehe...
I'm definately open to a huntsman concept, I think the way you explained it is right on, just not wolves...
Why would mountain lions work if wolves wouldn't?
Mountain lions are fiercely territorial, solitary hunters.
Plus--Ogres already have them.
what about owlbears??? or giant rabbits????
What about Owlbears? And what the devil would "giant rabbits" have to do with anything?
The Wood Elves aren't "treehuggers". They're more like...
Well, you know the idea of the "crazy mountain man"? The guy who kills trespassers for sport?
Yeah. That's partially what the Wood Elves are like.
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Post by: thecooter
Wolves, Bears, Stags, Boars... The answer is obvious:
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
I said fantasy, not myth.
If the wolves are not going to be ridden then there is less point in having them. Wolves would be skirmishers which WE already have in groves.
Though it did occur to me that Waywatcher Wolf cav might have a place with the scout rule though they would have to pass an leadership test if the unit stops within 6" of Dryads or treekin to avoid having to stop and sniff.
Ditto any deer or they have to browse.
Without riders wolves could go with the waydancers....
yes you got it, Waydances with Wolves.
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Post by: HoverBoy
Kanluwen wrote:Yeah...keep the big cats the hell out as mounts. That idea is so stupid that everytime I see it being done for High Elves I want to hit someone.
Yes it is overdone and yet i don't see you suggesting anything else.
As nice as deers and bears would be having only those two animals present is just too limited, it's nature after all and its quite diverse cats, pigs and k-nines, of all sizes are likely to be allied with the "nature elves" to protect their home.
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Post by: DeadBabySoup
Kanluwen wrote:
Sure you can compare horses and wolves. Horses have, in Warhammer, always featured attributes of their parent race.
Look at the Chaos Knight's steeds. They'll usually have very subtle mutations that put them as very clearly "Chaos".
Look at the Empire steeds versus the Bretonnian steeds. They're similar, but different. The barding alone sees to that.
Then look at the Elven steeds, especially the Wood Elf ones and the more recent Dragon Prince steeds. They have the almond-shaped eyes and sort of 'perked' ears that mark them as being Elvish.
Right, but horses serve as mounts for most races well, because horses are commonly domesticated to serve as mounts for most races. Wolves aren't, minus the gobbos. There really isn't a comparison here, unless you prefer that more armies use wolves as mounts, which isn't the case.
Kanluwen wrote:
If a High Elf can do it, you can bet your arse a Wood Elf could
If high elves use big cats such as lions then you bet your arse a wood elf could , or so your form of logic here indicates.
Kanluwen wrote:
The European settlers are what pushed them to the brink of extinction. Coyotes were more demonized by the American settlers circa the Western Expansion than wolves were.
Someone need to recheck their facts!!! try wiki- hunting wolves... might be a good start
Kanluwen wrote:DeadBabySoup wrote:
Wolves are for the bad guys!!!
Eh. Not in my book.
Eh. They are in my book!
Kanluwen wrote:
"Cool". The word is "cool".
Wait, it's spelled cool? COOL! I spell it kool, like in Kool-aid! Other people spell it like kewl. I know it's crazy, I know, but hey! It's fun! Plus I don't see how attempting to korrect my spelling has any impakt on the topik we are diskussing. However, if you like to play English teacher then by all means, feel free...
Kanluwen wrote:
Why would mountain lions work if wolves wouldn't?
Mountain lions are fiercely territorial, solitary hunters.
Plus--Ogres already have them.
Wolves are also fiercely territorial and the tend to be solitary hunters for most of their lives, as it actually increases their chance of survival.
Kanluwen wrote:
What about Owlbears? And what the devil would "giant rabbits" have to do with anything?
this was sarcasm, but I will try to behave I promise 
Kanluwen wrote:
The Wood Elves aren't "treehuggers". They're more like...
Well, you know the idea of the "crazy mountain man"? The guy who kills trespassers for sport?
Yeah. That's partially what the Wood Elves are like.
Wood Elves aren't Rednecks... They have a nobility about them, but how bout a crazy mountain lion to go with your crazy mountain man? Sounds crazy!!!
thecooter wrote:Wolves, Bears, Stags, Boars... The answer is obvious:
lol
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I said fantasy, not myth.
If the wolves are not going to be ridden then there is less point in having them. Wolves would be skirmishers which WE already have in groves.
Though it did occur to me that Waywatcher Wolf cav might have a place with the scout rule though they would have to pass an leadership test if the unit stops within 6" of Dryads or treekin to avoid having to stop and sniff.
Ditto any deer or they have to browse.
Without riders wolves could go with the waydancers....
yes you got it, Waydances with Wolves.
Where's my kevin costner mini?????
HoverBoy wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Yeah...keep the big cats the hell out as mounts. That idea is so stupid that everytime I see it being done for High Elves I want to hit someone.
Yes it is overdone and yet i don't see you suggesting anything else.
As nice as deers and bears would be having only those two animals present is just too limited, it's nature after all and its quite diverse cats, pigs and k-nines, of all sizes are likely to be allied with the "nature elves" to protect their home.
I agree, I really don't want to see big cats in WE's but wolves aren't just their bread and butter either and the variety of animals currently are pretty limiting. Perhaps something else bordering more mythical and fantasy than reality? Or or perhaps Animal swarms of a more generic sense... Kanluwen's suggestion that spites host a variety of animals to make the unit seems fitting here. Don't they also have access to Unicorns? a unit of these might kick arse. Still thinking on this one fer sure.
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Post by: HoverBoy
I think my brain just blew up...
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Post by: Kanluwen
Unicorns and Stags are 'meh', but what makes them really unique is that they're just that. Not every Asrai has access to them, they're rare and mythical--even amongst the Asrai, who live in the forest of Athel Loren their entire lives.
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Post by: boogeyman
It is tough to try to find some unique animals to fit into the WE theme. I've seen most people agreeing that the WE have a celtic feel to them, so maybe this may be a place to start.
http://www.joellessacredgrove.com/Celtic/animalallies.html
I am partial to the wolves (already done), griffins (already done), bear, badger (would have to be of the giant variety ), and maybe a flock of birds. The dragons, unicorns, hawks, eagles, and stags are already in the WE list.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Quite frankly, if we're going to avoid things that are "already done"--then Wood Elves are going to have to be dropped because every army already has archers, spirits, and swords.
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Post by: boogeyman
Kanluwen wrote:Quite frankly, if we're going to avoid things that are "already done"--then Wood Elves are going to have to be dropped because every army already has archers, spirits, and swords.
lol. Which is why I am still partial to having wolves and the rest.
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Post by: Kanluwen
One big thing I'd do is lose the Warhawk Riders, replace them with Hippogryphon Riders.
Why?
It builds kind of a visible tie to the Bretonnians.
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Post by: loranafaeriequeen
I think unicorn riders would be good without having to do conversions. Maybe just a character on a unicorn. Or maybe and i know this is a long shot bring back the faerie queen as a playable character and give her an awesome new look.
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Post by: Kanluwen
We've already got Unicorn characters in the Wood Elf list. They're only options for Mages of the Glamourweave Kindred though.
I don't think them as a kind of "cavalry" choice would be that good of an idea though.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Re Celtic sources.
The triad of animals in the Mabinogion are Stag, Pig and Wolf iirc.
The Gundstrupp bowl has stags with Cerronos.
Well done on the blue wall Deadly...
14 S/He wrotes must be some sort of record.
(is that a quadraduplet?)
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Post by: WombleJim
Kanluwen wrote:One big thing I'd do is lose the Warhawk Riders, replace them with Hippogryphon Riders.
Why?
It builds kind of a visible tie to the Bretonnians.
I was thinking something similar the other day, been playing with idea of pegasus riders for some counts as warhawk riders.
Figured the Brets had to get their flying ponies from somewhere and it can't be a coincidence with a large magical forest on your doorstep
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Post by: loranafaeriequeen
I knew about the mages being a playable option as far as the rules. i was talking about the addition of a figure that is supposed to ride a unicorn rather tham me having to get a separate unicorn and trying to figure out turning a standing figure into a rider.
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Post by: HoverBoy
What i think would be cool isa forest rhino, and GW can even base it off the IRL sumatran rhino.
And it's only been done once in all of the warhammer armies.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
I'd much rather the wolves than a Rhino which belongs firmly in 40K
Lorena, iirc there used to be a rider on unicorn, as you probably already know so apologies for stating the obvious 
... but have to agree, it is rather odd that there is no model. Have seen grail maiden conversions. Have a unicorn and may try a sculpt myself for the waysinger at some point.
I sort of like the hawkriders Kanners but the Brett link is a good notion (so we sometimes do agree on things! )
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Post by: DeadBabySoup
Kanluwen wrote:Quite frankly, if we're going to avoid things that are "already done"--then Wood Elves are going to have to be dropped because every army already has archers, spirits, and swords.
hehe... I think you're really missing the point. The idea was to give the WE something relating to the forest animals of Asari. You said wolves, I said no. Great, no problem look, two people disagreeing with an issue that has no right or wrong answer. It's going to be ok fella.
Other than wolves, I haven't seen you gone up with any other suggestions really, it's as if someone doesn't agree with what you think is correct, you just continue to shoot everyone's ideas down regardless of what they are. Quite frankly, pessimism doesn't suit the thread.
On that note, if you all want, check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_legendary_creatures
There is a bunch of stuff with a more mythical element and while most of it won't fit the profile (demons, ghosts etc...) there are a few that could. And to add to that I was thinking about stampedes or herds of some kind, of buffalo perhaps or maybe a mount of this nature.
The pegasus idea is interesting as it has a more noble, heroic personification, but I'm not up to snuff on bretonnian fluff to pass judgement.
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Post by: Kanluwen
DeadBabySoup wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Quite frankly, if we're going to avoid things that are "already done"--then Wood Elves are going to have to be dropped because every army already has archers, spirits, and swords.
hehe... I think you're really missing the point. The idea was to give the WE something relating to the forest animals of Asari. You said wolves, I said no. Great, no problem look, two people disagreeing with an issue that has no right or wrong answer. It's going to be ok fella.
No the idea is it's a wishlisting thread. As in things we want to see and why we want to see them. Not just "I want X".
Other than wolves, I haven't seen you gone up with any other suggestions really, it's as if someone doesn't agree with what you think is correct, you just continue to shoot everyone's ideas down regardless of what they are. Quite frankly, pessimism doesn't suit the thread.
Other than y'know, hippogryph riders or regiments having an attached "Wild Mage" allowing them to hop from forest to forest?
Yeah. I totally haven't "gone up" with any other suggestions(I'm assuming you mean "come up with").
On that note, if you all want, check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_legendary_creatures
There is a bunch of stuff with a more mythical element and while most of it won't fit the profile (demons, ghosts etc...) there are a few that could. And to add to that I was thinking about stampedes or herds of some kind, of buffalo perhaps or maybe a mount of this nature.
...Why would you have "stampedes or herds" in a forest?
Herds, maybe. Stampedes? Not really.
As for the "list of legendary creatures"--most of them that actually fit the Wood Elf aesthetic? They're already in the force.
The pegasus idea is interesting as it has a more noble, heroic personification, but I'm not up to snuff on bretonnian fluff to pass judgement.
You don't need to be up to snuff on Bretonnian fluff to know that they've got Pegasus mounted knights
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Post by: RiTides
Let's keep it civil, fellas...
One WE player to another and all that, eh? Or if I'm talking about myself, former WE player...
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Post by: Kanluwen
*chases RiTides out of the thread*
This is the Wood Elf clubhouse, fella!
In all honesty: Wood Elves are either going to be reworked so well that they'll "play the same", but they won't be immediately recognizable or they're going to be reworked so ineptly it will be an entire army of Jokaero.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Was thinking about the leadership test wolves and deer would be required to pass if they get within 6" of Dryads or Treekin.
How about for a company of wolves, "The Rune of the Mystic Forest Lampost" 25pts.
Wolves autopass having to sniff the Tree Spirits.
Deer units could have something along the lines of "Rune of the Haigh" 25pts, which means they don't need to take a leadership test not to browse and nibble on the Tree Spirits as they are mystically fed on holly leaves.
Is 25 pts too expensive? Maybe 15?
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Post by: Kanluwen
Forget the idea of the "Wolves" actually being beasts.
Think of them as being Spirits of fallen Elven Hunters; devoted to Kurnuos; actually taking the form of a spectral wolf accompanying an Elf Hunter with the appropriate Kindred upgrade.
Far cooler, right?
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Post by: WombleJim
RiTides wrote: Or if I'm talking about myself, former WE player...
will keep working on tempting you back from the darkside
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Spectral animals for the Tree Sprit does sound good.
Have tried bribing RiTides, Jim, but he was immune to my offers. Will try money next time.
It was a mistake sending a pic of me in fish net stockings. Automatically Appended Next Post: ps
He said the ogres were more attractive for some reason
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Post by: WombleJim
Kanluwen wrote:
You don't need to be up to snuff on Bretonnian fluff to know that they've got Pegasus mounted knights
To be fair I was not sure on where the Brets got their Pegasus from, If they got them from the Athel Loren I can imagine the conversation as thus;
Bretonnian: Excuse me Mr Wood Elf can we borrow some of your flying horses to breed and to be trained as mounts?
Wood Elf: Only on the condition you stop sending your knights on quests in here, Don't you realise plate armour is non-biodegradable! Automatically Appended Next Post: Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
Have tried bribing RiTides, Jim, but he was immune to my offers. Will try money next time.
It was a mistake sending a pic of me in fish net stockings.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ps
He said the ogres were more attractive for some reason
Damn and that was our best offer
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Post by: Kanluwen
WombleJim wrote:Kanluwen wrote:
You don't need to be up to snuff on Bretonnian fluff to know that they've got Pegasus mounted knights
To be fair I was not sure on where the Brets got their Pegasus from, If they got them from the Athel Loren I can imagine the conversation as thus;
Bretonnian: Excuse me Mr Wood Elf can we borrow some of your flying horses to breed and to be trained as mounts?
Wood Elf: Only on the condition you stop sending your knights on quests in here, Don't you realise plate armour is non-biodegradable!
I just went and looked it up.
Apparently, they get their mounts from the "slopes of the Grey Mountains"--with the majority of Pegasus Knights hailing from the area around Parravon.
The Grey Mountains, do, it seems arc their way down into Athel Loren--so the idea's a good 'un
Hippogryphs are the same, seemingly.
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Post by: Kiwidru
I really don't like the elven hunting pack idea, it's cool for fluff, but WE have enough harassment/mobility units.
I DO like the stampede idea, nothing seems more elfy than pointing a herd of Forrest buffalo at an enemy and then setting them loose as a living battering ram. That has always been the dynamic: the Asrai are the harassment/support, Athel Loren is the heavy hitter. I think a strong counter charge unit, especially of monstrous cavalry would be awesome and plug some serious holes in the list. If you absolutely had to you could have some elven cowboys steering bareback, I would replace wild rider with this unit, then make wild riders an upgrade to glade riders.
+1 to the kindred as core idea
+1 to infantry glade bows
+1 to better dances
+1 to usable special chars
Edit: +1 to spite swarm
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Forest Buffalo? With cowboys? is this a wind up? I know it is fantasy and we could have herds of grazing big cats, but forest buffalo and cowboys? We'll be having hordes of pygmies next riding Impala next! Sorry Kiwidru. I just like my celto saxon mythology free from African fauna. Now look what you made me do, I feel like a nazi now I have said that! AAARGH! I need to shower in bleach scrubbed with razor wire to feel clean again!
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Post by: Kiwidru
It's a made up game with magic, elves, sentient trees, and a forest hive mind, and you linger on the term buffalo? Even though in India/Asia they have tons of large hooved and non hooved animals in dense vegitation? Meh, make up a new animal, or call it a rhinox or whatever, I think the idea is cool, reminds me of green in magic the gathering
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Note that Elves are a North European phenomena. Celts and Saxons aren't based in Africa/ India
If you want an Ind Army...
Woolly Rhinos are painted on the cave walls of France and Spain.
Have you not noticed that the fauna is related to the type of environment based on geography and myth?
Even within the fantasy realms of WH there is an internal logic.
You start tinkering with that overmuch and it falls apart into cheap gimmicks and gimcrackery.
The successful and enduring fantasy literature have all recognised this.
Mythologies and folklore are grounded with place.
"meh" it's only a game. But one I was interested in it because the background was something that tied in with familiar and powerful mythological systems.
You are welcome to have having stampeding buffalo through Athel Loren. If GW start crowbarring that sort of nonsense in it will be ta ta cocker with the wave of a hanky.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Kiwidru wrote:I really don't like the elven hunting pack idea, it's cool for fluff, but WE have enough harassment/mobility units.
We don't know how many of them will actually survive into the next iteration. With how the rules were changed and how Beastmen were changed, it's likely we'll see a big shift in the way Wood Elves are organized.
For all we know: Eternal Guard will be a mainstay troop choice, with Glade Guard being available for the same Core slots--and Dryads/Treekin/Treemen being a kind of magical construct created by a spell from the Lore of Athel Loren.
The idea for this isn't what we want with this book in mind. It's what we want with the next iteration. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kiwidru wrote:It's a made up game with magic, elves, sentient trees, and a forest hive mind, and you linger on the term buffalo? Even though in India/Asia they have tons of large hooved and non hooved animals in dense vegitation? Meh, make up a new animal, or call it a rhinox or whatever, I think the idea is cool, reminds me of green in magic the gathering
This isn't actually true.
Most of the "buffalo" in India/Asia? They're called "water buffalo" for a reason--they live in the more open/less dense areas that surround the rivers.
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Post by: Bastion of Mediocrity
Umm . . . getting back to the wolf argument, I am not the biggest fan of the sculpts, but doesn't Orion have some wolf-HOUND models with him? I think a wolfhound looks a good deal cooler than a wolf (which as stated is kinda taken already).
I know chaos has hounds, but they are more like mutated mastiffs. I don't know how many of you are dog lovers, but I think wolfhounds are some of the prettier dogs and could make great sculpts.
Also a group of wolfhounds with a packmaster fits the psudo-medievel style of fantasy. Thoughts?
Also if they ever make a unicorn model specific to Wood elves again, I hope it looks more goat-ish with cloven hooves et al. I don't really see dense forest as a great breeding ground for horses . . . but cervids (deer) and caprids (goats) would do just fine.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Trouble with wolfhounds is they are human bred dogs.
(why does that sound wrong? )
You know what I mean 
Bretts yes Empire yes WE... hmmm not so sure.
Totally agree about the unicorn.
Not forgetting that unicorns are not cutesy my little ponies but fierce flesh eating monsters! They could only be captured by a virgin so according to legend, RPGers would have no problems taming the beastie.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:Umm . . . getting back to the wolf argument, I am not the biggest fan of the sculpts, but doesn't Orion have some wolf-HOUND models with him? I think a wolfhound looks a good deal cooler than a wolf (which as stated is kinda taken already).
They're less wolfhound and more Irish Setter
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Post by: Ozymandias
Wolfhounds sounds better to me than straight up wolves (I know Kan, they're spirits...), and they kind of already fit the theme of the army (y'know, cause Orion already has them).
I think EG should be about 8 points a model to compete with the other core troops in the game and GG should be 9 or 10 with basically the same rules as now.
For models, I'd expect plastic kits for EG, Treekin, and the Treeman and that's about it, maybe wild riders but I'd be surprised.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Ozymandias wrote:Wolfhounds sounds better to me than straight up wolves (I know Kan, they're spirits...), and they kind of already fit the theme of the army (y'know, cause Orion already has them).
Wolfhounds definitely work, but I wanted to avoid them specifically because Orion has them. They always seemed like they were something signature to him and him alone.
I think EG should be about 8 points a model to compete with the other core troops in the game and GG should be 9 or 10 with basically the same rules as now.
I have to wonder if we'll see EG getting shields/spears as standard and being permanently shifted to Core or if they'll retain their sword-staves and requirement of an Eternal Kindred hero .
For models, I'd expect plastic kits for EG, Treekin, and the Treeman and that's about it, maybe wild riders but I'd be surprised.
I would be surprised if we don't see some kind of dedicated 'hero' kit similar to what we saw with the High Elves, Orcs and Empire.
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Post by: Bastion of Mediocrity
@ Chibi, I get that here on Earth humans bred wolfhounds (and Irish Setters), but in the Old World the woods are a scary and dark place for humans. . . so wood elves live there. I think with the Asrai having specially raised horses (an animal bred by humans), they also fit as having specially raised wolf hounds.
IMHO Asrai are more Celtic than Native American, so that would be more friendly to wolfhounds than to wolves (whom as far as I know did not have a good reputation in Dark Europe).
Personally I hope that GW finds a better niche for wolves than goblin mount, but I would prefer it in Beastmen and I'd prefer them with a were- in front.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:@ Chibi, I get that here on Earth humans bred wolfhounds (and Irish Setters), but in the Old World the woods are a scary and dark place for humans. . . so wood elves live there. I think with the Asrai having specially raised horses (an animal bred by humans), they also fit as having specially raised wolf hounds.
The funny thing is that horses were something that the humans didn't have prior to their contact with Elves, at least that's the way it's been made to seem. So horses were, in fact, introduced to humans from the Elves.
As for the "specially raised horses" bit, I'm not too sold on that being a good reason for wolfhounds(and not just because I prefer wolves either ). The Elven steeds that the Asrai use are kept in an entirely secluded glade which has its own permanent vigil to prevent thievery or spirits getting uppity.
IMHO Asrai are more Celtic than Native American, so that would be more friendly to wolfhounds than to wolves (whom as far as I know did not have a good reputation in Dark Europe).
Like I said early on, wolves pre-Christianity and the Dark Ages had a pretty good reputation. Rome, in fact, had the myth of its founding tied inextricably to a she-wolf guarding and raising Romulus and Remus.
Your point about the "dark and scary forest" isn't lost on me though. And it just makes more sense for, imo, the Asrai to have wolves.
I mean, the Asrai as it stands? They're the very definition of 'primal' and they're considered by the two human factions and the Dwarves and even the High Elves to essentially be fey and brutal guardians of the forest. What better way to emphasize the fact that they're 'more animal than Elf' now, than to have them actually fighting alongside one of the most terrifying natural predators in existence?
Personally I hope that GW finds a better niche for wolves than goblin mount, but I would prefer it in Beastmen and I'd prefer them with a were- in front.
You know what the Wood Elf "Alter" Kindred are, right? They can "adopt aspects of the creatures who dwell within Athel Loren".
It doesn't necessarily say if it's just like they channel the 'spirit' of the animal or full on take its form and attributes.
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Post by: Ozymandias
Kanluwen wrote:Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:@ Chibi, I get that here on Earth humans bred wolfhounds (and Irish Setters), but in the Old World the woods are a scary and dark place for humans. . . so wood elves live there. I think with the Asrai having specially raised horses (an animal bred by humans), they also fit as having specially raised wolf hounds.
The funny thing is that horses were something that the humans didn't have prior to their contact with Elves, at least that's the way it's been made to seem. So horses were, in fact, introduced to humans from the Elves.
Where is this ever stated in Wood Elf canon? The woodies ride Elven steeds, the same ones that the High Elves and Dark Elves ride, and I don't think those two got them from humans.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Ozymandias wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:@ Chibi, I get that here on Earth humans bred wolfhounds (and Irish Setters), but in the Old World the woods are a scary and dark place for humans. . . so wood elves live there. I think with the Asrai having specially raised horses (an animal bred by humans), they also fit as having specially raised wolf hounds.
The funny thing is that horses were something that the humans didn't have prior to their contact with Elves, at least that's the way it's been made to seem. So horses were, in fact, introduced to humans from the Elves.
Where is this ever stated in Wood Elf canon? The woodies ride Elven steeds, the same ones that the High Elves and Dark Elves ride, and I don't think those two got them from humans.
I said that it seems that horses were introduced to humans from the Elves.
However, that's just speculation on my part because the fluff on the early tribes has no mention of horsemen until they encountered the Elves still living within the Old World.
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Post by: Ozymandias
Misread your post, but I still don't see the fluff you're referring to. In the Nagash books they have horses and had very little to no contact with Elves (other than the captured Dark Elves).
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Post by: Kanluwen
Ozymandias wrote:Misread your post, but I still don't see the fluff you're referring to. In the Nagash books they have horses and had very little to no contact with Elves (other than the captured Dark Elves).
Fair point, but with Nagash they already had an established civilization and were at such a point that they could capture Dark Elves--stealing some Elven horses wouldn't be a difficult task don't you think?
I was specifically referring to the Bretonnians/Empire, both of which seemingly had no real contact with horses prior to their contact with Elvenkind.
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Post by: Bastion of Mediocrity
@kanluwen, you make some great points, when I refered to horses being "human-bred" animals, I meant in the real world. Similar to how wolfhounds are. So both would fit the Asrai IMO.
I agree that wolves would fit as well, but I prefer the savage version of wolves, not the noble/misunderstood hunter version. Just a taste thing. It may also be that I am biased against the idea because I have an O&G army as well.
I never thought of the alters as werewolves, to me werewolves are cursed with bloodthirstiness. I see Alters as spiritwalkers, once again a matter of taste. . . .
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Post by: Kanluwen
Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:@kanluwen, you make some great points, when I refered to horses being "human-bred" animals, I meant in the real world. Similar to how wolfhounds are. So both would fit the Asrai IMO.
More than fair, but I think wolfhounds would be more appropriate for Bretonnia or the High Elves. Both races are more 'distinguished' and fit the ideal that I associate wolfhounds with('sport' hunters, rather than actual woodsmen who've bonded with a wild animal).
I agree that wolves would fit as well, but I prefer the savage version of wolves, not the noble/misunderstood hunter version. Just a taste thing. It may also be that I am biased against the idea because I have an O&G army as well.
Well...you can have both in the Wood Elves.
Plus like I said: it doesn't necessarily have to be a 'living wolf'.
Wolves that look like branches bound in a form of a wolf, animated by the spirits of fallen Asrai hunters, returned to the realm of Athel Loren to once more stalk the foe alongside their living brethren.
How's that for an idea?
I never thought of the alters as werewolves, to me werewolves are cursed with bloodthirstiness. I see Alters as spiritwalkers, once again a matter of taste. . . .
With the Alter Kindred, it's maddeningly vague. All we have to go on is that "they can adopt aspects of the creatures within Athel Loren". They seem to be either of two types:
Like Druids of D&D where they can actually turn themselves into the animal in question or more like the Hunters from Warcraft and Rangers from Everquest were where they can buff their personal attributes using the 'aspect' of that animal.
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Post by: Bastion of Mediocrity
OK, I am 100% behind you on the spirit/bramble wolf! That sounds awesome! Let's send threatening letters to the design staff until them make them! lol
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Post by: Kanluwen
Threatening letters are a no-no, BoM
Just send them nicely worded letters, with a half-decent unit idea as an outline.
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Post by: guzzoid
Glade guard longbows should be str4 no matter the range and armor piercing.
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Post by: WombleJim
Have been pondering GWs recent fascination with large monsters and howdahs which make me think if Tomb Kings and Goblins can do it then surely a Wood Elf can do better! maybe some kind of giant Wolf with a howdah on back which carry say 5 Eternal Guard or a tricked out character.
Would be nice if we could get a large monster other than a tree as I am sure big nasty creatures lurk in Athel Loren.
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Post by: overtninja
i don't think it's likely that you'll see wood elves in howdahs on giant animals any time soon, as we could just climb onto treemen and use them as a walking ballistic platform. ;p
i have to say that, having watched that video that games workshop put up concerning how they generally design armies to have either big monsters or a lot of guns, i'm much more interested in having some big monsters. maybe we could have our teeman throw rocks or something. i'd also like some war beasts (spirit animals would be cool) or spite swarms or something that isn't super expensive but still thematic, for tying up units and diverting them, which is supposed to be a theme of our army. we're not really a stand up and fight sort, and i think that this play-style can still be supported, even in a game that's all about the crush of melee combat.
i'd really like to see a new sculpt for our dragon, i'd like one that's not out of an 80's cartoon. i'd like it's breath weapon to stand a chance of hurting anyone, also.
i'd like eternal guard to not be ridiculous expensive for spearmen, i'd like to not pay a premium for fear on most of my models, and i'd like wardancers to perhaps not cost so much if they are there to strike hard and then die.
i'd like to see our lords and nobles be able to shoot as many shots from their bows as they have attacks on their profile, because str3 arrows are not exactly the most potent force on the field these days. ;p if we could perhaps have them shoot at str4 in close range like their glade guard brethren that would be even more awesome.
there are a lot of small things i'd like to change, but i can understand the not-really-a-ward-save on forest spirits thing (from a fluff standpoint, certainly). however, if our units are going to be costly that's going to need to be a real ward to reflect the cost of our units. i'd also go so far as to say that we really need either ranked units or a special rule that allows us to otherwise deal with steadfastness. i'm leaning towards the latter because i think it fits the idea of the wood elves picking off army blocks before crushing them, but unless that can be made to play out on the table the former is a better overall gameplay solution.
either way, it seems like GW is really working hard to get army books out expediently, so hopefully we won't be waiting that long for some rad new rules. i just hope they keep waywatchers awesome, i just bought a bunch more.
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Post by: Obsidian
Maybe a sub list for The Wildwood. There must be some pretty nasty beasties in there! As for large monsters: Megatherium  Indricotherium  Or possably a Large Glyptodon  I Know the prehistoric thing is already covered with dinosures with the Lizardmen and Dark Elves and the Ice age with the Ogers, but there is still a weath of Fauna that could be used as inspiration for large creatures within our own pre-history. But a huge Roc or eagle would probably be more in character for the fast strikes that the Wood Elves are known for.
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Post by: Bastion of Mediocrity
Nice Ice Age animals there . . . all would be cool, but I would prefer different types of treemen personally. Maybe even by tree type, oak vs. ash vs. elm or what have you.
I want to second the ideas of spite swarms and beast units, although not sure what the best beast would be. I would like S4 bows on characters and hounds of orion filling out wildrider units.
But I can go on forever . . .
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Post by: HoverBoy
Must have big armadilllo...
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
If there is one thing that says "Wood Elf" less than buffalo, it surely must be giant armadillo.
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Post by: Obsidian
The giant armadillo was kind of a wild card
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Post by: Gorgarak
I guess the biggest thing I'd wanna see is obviously is plastic models. It sucks having to spend 30-35 bucks on 5 eternal guard models. Same can be said of Tree kin. Just make the army more affordable in a sense.
Other then that....yeah, as stated already, it'd be awesome to see some new rules for EG. 5+ ward would be great. Leave the point cost where it is if they give 5+ ward save, im cool with that. I'd like to see maybe some cheaper magical items for Wood elves, or some spites that actually make sense to take. Many of the spites and magic items are very circumstantial, and the few that are worth taking are so expensive it leaves you with little magic item combos. Rhymers harp is a great example. 75 points for a 5+ ward save. So you would have to take a lord, use 75 percent of his magic item points, and then what? The only unit he could go into would be wild riders, way watcher, EG, glade guard or glade riders, maybe war dancers. WR and WD already can have a 5+ ward save, sticking a lord with GR or WW is pointless, same with GG. So you are stuck with eternal guard, which leaves your lord in a static unit which is made for taking some hits, and can't effectively do it to begin with.
Just some balance issues mainly. Some cheaper way watchers would be great! Wardancers need some tweeking as well. really nothing too crazy, just some small changes that would make a huge difference!
Would be nice if we could get a large monster other than a tree as I am sure big nasty creatures lurk in Athel Loren.
You know, I was thinking of something like a huge rock/ plant creature. In dungeons and dragons they have these things called shambling mounds, like huge giant like creatures made of plants, rocks, soil, deadwood etc. that could work
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
That is the sort of thing I was thinking of Gorgorak
A living Copse if you will!
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