37808
Post by: FourCartridge
Yesterday I had a discussion at my FLGS about the Imperium, and when it came to the subject about morality, he said that Chaos could be the good guys because the Imperium were Catholic Space Nazis. I mentioned the part that they frequently indulge in human sacrifices and he still insisted. So what do you guys think?
18364
Post by: Little lord Fauntleroy
Two wrongs don't make a right, as Grandma Fauntleroy always used to say. Whilst it could be argued that Chaos' goal of a (more or less) 'united' galaxy could be considered noble, the way they attempt to acheive it makes them evil. To paraphrase Assassin's Creed: "I take no issues with their goals, they are the same as mine; it is how they go about them that is why they must be fought."
33586
Post by: Cerebrium
Nooo, not by a long way. Sacrifices, slavery, indiscriminate killing...
Just because they're killing people who support "Catholic Space Nazis" doesn't mean they're good at all.
As Fauntleroy said, two wrongs don't make a right. 3 lefts do, however.
18364
Post by: Little lord Fauntleroy
I also think that 'Good' and, to some degree, 'evil' are terms that need more clarification-does stopping an evil act make you good, even if you have fouler motives?
31733
Post by: Brother Coa
And they think that eternal suffering, madness, betrayal, raping, slaughtering, destroying or simply killing is a characteristic of a good guy? 
What drug do they use? I must try some 
33627
Post by: wookiedestroyer
I believe chaos are selfish and in the world for themselves.They aim for "destroy everything because I can and might get something out of it". Space marines are like future nazis though. One emperor is the only religion and all others must be destroyed (meaning aliens and non believers known as heretics). In 40k no one is pure and good or completely evil (Except maybe the chaos gods). Its like calling tau good or evil. they are a bit of both. They are like mafia in the sense that they want to be the dominant force and when a family gets in their way they either kill them or beat them into joining for the greater good.
27553
Post by: Brother Heinrich
The Chaos Gods are selfish to be sure and those dedicated to them but I believe there are certain nuggets of 'right' amongst the renegades, for example, the Alpha Legion and the Night Lords, both legions seem to hold to the original ideal of bringing down a father who betrayed them.
36745
Post by: Ghyslain Xaroit
So, this guy considers oppression (only in place because without such stringent policies the human race will collapse and be destroyed) more 'evil' than eternal destruction and devouring peoples souls for the lulz? More evil than intentionally spreading disease, lies, violence, harmful mutation, and death? Thats some funny morality.
33627
Post by: wookiedestroyer
Brother Coa wrote:And they think that eternal suffering, madness, betrayal, raping, slaughtering, destroying or simply killing is a characteristic of a good guy?
What drug do they use? I must try some
Ive never read about chaos raping anyone and besides when have space marines (even chaos) ever been able to take off power armour? Please correct me if im wrong but I dont think they can take it off.
28444
Post by: DarknessEternal
wookiedestroyer wrote:
Ive never read about chaos raping anyone and besides when have space marines (even chaos) ever been able to take off power armour? Please correct me if im wrong but I dont think they can take it off.
1. Read anything about Slannesh.
2. Power Armor is still armor, they can take it off whenever they feel like it.
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Post by: Platuan4th
wookiedestroyer wrote:Brother Coa wrote:And they think that eternal suffering, madness, betrayal, raping, slaughtering, destroying or simply killing is a characteristic of a good guy? What drug do they use? I must try some
Ive never read about chaos raping anyone and besides when have space marines (even chaos) ever been able to take off power armour? Please correct me if im wrong but I dont think they can take it off.
Power armor can be removed and no fluff has ever implied differently. CHAOS Armor, however, can not.
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Post by: Mr Meatballs
Platuan4th wrote:wookiedestroyer wrote:Brother Coa wrote:And they think that eternal suffering, madness, betrayal, raping, slaughtering, destroying or simply killing is a characteristic of a good guy?
What drug do they use? I must try some
Ive never read about chaos raping anyone and besides when have space marines (even chaos) ever been able to take off power armour? Please correct me if im wrong but I dont think they can take it off.
Power armor can be removed and no fluff has ever implied differently. CHAOS Armor, however, can not.
Who said anything about taking it off before hand?
exactly.
27553
Post by: Brother Heinrich
Ghyslain Xaroit wrote:So, this guy considers oppression (only in place because without such stringent policies the human race will collapse and be destroyed) more 'evil' than eternal destruction and devouring peoples souls for the lulz? More evil than intentionally spreading disease, lies, violence, harmful mutation, and death? Thats some funny morality.
I'd have to say in the grand scheme of things the Imperium Causes a great deal more suffering to its subjects than the forces of chaos. the Fallen legions and renegades are relegated to two small areas of the galaxy, the Eye of terror and the maelstrom. whereas the Imperium of Man stretches from one side of the galaxy to the other. In fact outside of Cadia and other worlds in proximity to the bastions of chaos the majority of the Imperial populace has no idea the traitor legions even exist. Most Imperial citizens never see a space marine in their entire life span, and even lesser still have the misfortune to encounter a chaos marine.
In fact in most stories where common citizenry has contact with renegade astartes, they are often mistaken for loyalists, (lords of the night for example) the fact that loyal astartes are as terrifying to the normal man as chaos astartes, should tell you something as to the reputation on both sides.
as far as sacrifice goes, yes humans are sacrificed to the gods of chaos, but are not humans also sacrificed to the God of the Imperium, hundreds a day if I recall correctly. not only that but those who do not worship said god are burned alive or killed in some other horrific fashion to serve as an example and a warning to other who may not share the views of the ecclesiarchy.
as far as I can tell one is just as bad as the other. Granted the Gods of Chaos devour your soul, whereas the Emperor only devours the souls of psykers, but if you're normal then why worry? I mean its not like you're jewish....I mean a psyker.
34899
Post by: Eumerin
We hear talk about "Catholic Space Nazis", but we also forget that the Imperium is a distant presence to the average citizen. Pay lip service to the Emperor and don't do anything stupid (i.e. join a local Chaos cult), and by and large the Imperium leaves you alone. Sure, there's a lot that's bad about it. But most people aren't impacted all that much by its presence. It's their planetary governments that are the primary cause of how repressed the local citizens are.
Chaos isn't that nice...
36745
Post by: Ghyslain Xaroit
Brother Heinrich wrote:Ghyslain Xaroit wrote:So, this guy considers oppression (only in place because without such stringent policies the human race will collapse and be destroyed) more 'evil' than eternal destruction and devouring peoples souls for the lulz? More evil than intentionally spreading disease, lies, violence, harmful mutation, and death? Thats some funny morality.
I'd have to say in the grand scheme of things the Imperium Causes a great deal more suffering to its subjects than the forces of chaos. the Fallen legions and renegades are relegated to two small areas of the galaxy, the Eye of terror and the maelstrom. whereas the Imperium of Man stretches from one side of the galaxy to the other. In fact outside of Cadia and other worlds in proximity to the bastions of chaos the majority of the Imperial populace has no idea the traitor legions even exist. Most Imperial citizens never see a space marine in their entire life span, and even lesser still have the misfortune to encounter a chaos marine.
In fact in most stories where common citizenry has contact with renegade astartes, they are often mistaken for loyalists, (lords of the night for example) the fact that loyal astartes are as terrifying to the normal man as chaos astartes, should tell you something as to the reputation on both sides.
as far as sacrifice goes, yes humans are sacrificed to the gods of chaos, but are not humans also sacrificed to the God of the Imperium, hundreds a day if I recall correctly. not only that but those who do not worship said god are burned alive or killed in some other horrific fashion to serve as an example and a warning to other who may not share the views of the ecclesiarchy.
as far as I can tell one is just as bad as the other. Granted the Gods of Chaos devour your soul, whereas the Emperor only devours the souls of psykers, but if you're normal then why worry? I mean its not like you're jewish....I mean a psyker.
...and the only reason the chaos marines don't cause more suffering to the people of the Imperium is because they are kept at bay by Imperial armies. You notice how when they invade they don't even give the Imperial 'join us or die' option? They will kill, rape, enslave, or otherwise cause a great deal more suffering to anyone they come across.
Take a larger view of these sacrifices. Those sacrificed to the chaos gods number in the millions; basically whoever comes across the followers of chaos, and their souls are eternally tortured or devoured. Those sacrificed to the Emperor are joined with his benevolent spirit for eternity; and without their sacrifice alot more people are going to die. Different kinds of sacrifice going on.
And obviously from our point of view the tyrannical Ecclesiarchy is a bad thing, but riddle me this: how many wars are fought today, human vs. human, because of religious disputes? If multiple religions were allowed, it would be a matter of hours before the Imperium tore itself apart; I think a little repression is worth the safety of the human race, both bodily and their souls.
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
The subtle joke at the core of 40K is that Chaos and the IoM are two sides of the same coin.
There is little or nothing to separate them in terms of their brutality, aggression and general crappiness to their own people and everyone else who comes into contact with them.
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Post by: stompydakka
FourCartridge wrote: the Imperium were Catholic Space Nazis.
I think that you, sir, just made my day.
28848
Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Kilkrazy wrote:The subtle joke at the core of 40K is that Chaos and the IoM are two sides of the same coin.
There is little or nothing to separate them in terms of their brutality, aggression and general crappiness to their own people and everyone else who comes into contact with them.
Well one makes you grow horns out of your head. There's that difference.
27553
Post by: Brother Heinrich
Kilkrazy wrote:The subtle joke at the core of 40K is that Chaos and the IoM are two sides of the same coin.
There is little or nothing to separate them in terms of their brutality, aggression and general crappiness to their own people and everyone else who comes into contact with them.
I wish I had such a gift for brevity lol, thank you Killkrazy, that about sums it up.
37647
Post by: Laodamia
Kilkrazy wrote:The subtle joke at the core of 40K is that Chaos and the IoM are two sides of the same coin.
There is little or nothing to separate them in terms of their brutality, aggression and general crappiness to their own people and everyone else who comes into contact with them.
It may be true for a good part of the IoM, but there are some lights in the darkness. Some of the SM homeworlds, for example, are havens of peace and justice in this uncaring and brutal galaxy.
I really doubt we can say the same about Merdengrad or Barbarus in the Eye... 
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Kilkrazy wrote:The subtle joke at the core of 40K is that Chaos and the IoM are two sides of the same coin.
There is little or nothing to separate them in terms of their brutality, aggression and general crappiness to their own people and everyone else who comes into contact with them.
Except the Imperium is definately motivate to save Humanity. Not humans, they have plenty of those. They only have one Humanity though.
Chaos doesn't give a rip about anything.
Which just goes to show how stupid Chaos powers are. They inseparably tied themselves to the fate of Humanity during the Heresy (because they thought they were going to win), but now if Humanity dies out, so do they. This doesn't stop them from trying to incessantly wipe it out though.
22038
Post by: 4M2A
Chaos stands out as the clear "bad Guy" until you look in depth. There are many very evil imperials and a lot of chaos worshipers who aren't that bad (each chaos god has good sides and is only bad when you loose control). A lot of the worlds in the eye of terror have stable human populations who could arguable be considered better of as there is much a higher chance of freedom.
Both rely on humanities worst qualities. Chaos preys on peoples desires and the imperium uses humanities fear of the unknown to rule.
While one is lead by hungry gods, the imperium is run by greedy humans.
The funny side is that the imperium fights chaos to "save humanity" but the sacrifices they make are as bad as what chaos does. While chaos is dangerous it also gives freedom, something the imperium will never give you.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
4M2A wrote: A lot of the worlds in the eye of terror have stable human populations who could arguable be considered better of as there is much a higher chance of freedom.
To have your skin sewn into a fashionable hat.
The Imperium may do brutal things to its people sometimes, but it's motivations are always to save the population as a whole.
Chaos is motivated purely For the Evulz.
Chaos having occasionally noble purposes was retconned out of 40k nearly 20 years ago. It's just pure, undiluted evil now.
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Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
Laodamia wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:The subtle joke at the core of 40K is that Chaos and the IoM are two sides of the same coin.
There is little or nothing to separate them in terms of their brutality, aggression and general crappiness to their own people and everyone else who comes into contact with them.
It may be true for a good part of the IoM, but there are some lights in the darkness. Some of the SM homeworlds, for example, are havens of peace and justice in this uncaring and brutal galaxy.
I really doubt we can say the same about Merdengrad or Barbarus in the Eye...
No, but we can point to the fact that the Gods actively reward those who follow them. Sure, horns and stuff might seem kinda crappy on the face of it, but in a fight they're dead useful. The major gifts can even enhance a person's attractiveness or even, as Daemonhood proves, make them immortal.
Of course, you have to do horrible, grotesque things to get that far, but equally the Imperium sacrifices millions of lives every day just to survive. To be honest, neither of them are all that good when you look at it. I kinda like this whole "coin" theory.
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Post by: Darth Bob
There are no "good guys" in the 40k universe. That's one of the main things that makes it so grimdark.
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Post by: Brother Heinrich
Darth Bob wrote:There are no "good guys" in the 40k universe. That's one of the main things that makes it so grimdark.
exactly, everybody just wants a slice of the pie, and anyone who gets in the way of that slice, is the enemy.
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Post by: Grakmar
Ummm... are you kidding?
Chaos is clearly the bad guys. They have spikes and chains all over their armor. Everyone know that spikes=evil.
If that's not enough to convince you, perhaps we should sit down and...
*axe to your head*
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
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Post by: Phototoxin
I think the use of Catholic is unfair and offensive. If I said 'Tau are Muslim Space Communists' there'd be hell to pay...
Sure there's ecclesiastical elements but the RCC generally is against wholescale slaughter.
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Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
Grakmar wrote:Ummm... are you kidding?
Chaos is clearly the bad guys. They have spikes and chains all over their armor. Everyone know that spikes=evil.
If that's not enough to convince you, perhaps we should sit down and...
*axe to your head*
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
What's this, a slightly divergent opinion?
EXECUTE THIS MAN FOR HERESY ON FIVE LEVELS!
27553
Post by: Brother Heinrich
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Grakmar wrote:Ummm... are you kidding?
Chaos is clearly the bad guys. They have spikes and chains all over their armor. Everyone know that spikes=evil.
If that's not enough to convince you, perhaps we should sit down and...
*axe to your head*
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
What's this, a slightly divergent opinion?
EXECUTE THIS MAN FOR HERESY ON FIVE LEVELS!
Blood Angels and their successors, "Blood for the blood Emperor"
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Post by: Darth Bob
Grakmar wrote:Ummm... are you kidding?
Chaos is clearly the bad guys. They have spikes and chains all over their armor. Everyone know that spikes=evil.
If that's not enough to convince you, perhaps we should sit down and...
*axe to your head*
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
Some Random Dude: "So...my friend says there's a heretical rebellion over there on that planet."
Inquisitor: "What proof do you have?"
*Shows paper with crudely drawn 'feth the Emperor. Love, Planet 10223'*
And with that, tens of billions of innocent people will be executed, usually burned and/or mutilated. Because they may or may not be heretics. Killing them is the only safe solution.
The Imperium sure sounds like a friendly group of individuals hmmm?
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Post by: ToBeWilly
Kilkrazy wrote:The subtle joke at the core of 40K is that Chaos and the IoM are two sides of the same coin.
There is little or nothing to separate them in terms of their brutality, aggression and general crappiness to their own people and everyone else who comes into contact with them.
Subtle!? I don't know if I'd call it subtle.
It's THE joke at the core of 40K... 
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Post by: Ghyslain Xaroit
So no-one here sees the difference between fighting to survive (IoM) and killing for the hell of it (Chaos)? Between sacrificing lives to save even more lives, and sacrificing souls to feed a demon? Really? No moral difference there?
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Post by: FourCartridge
The ends do not justify the means. That's the big moral of the 40k universe.
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Post by: Ailaros
Meh, morals are human constructs. By extension, who is a "good guy" and who is a "bad guy" is dependent entirely upon the fabrication of the observer.
Both the imperium and chaos forces are working in their self-interest for the benefit of themselves and their constituancy. The only wiggle room here is their methodology, but I hardly see anyone coming out for the better when chaos rips apart human beings to add skulls to a giant pile on one hand, and the imperium unleashing an aerosolized super-virus killing all life on a planet on the other.
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Post by: 4M2A
To have your skin sewn into a fashionable hat.
The Imperium may do brutal things to its people sometimes, but it's motivations are always to save the population as a whole.
Chaos is motivated purely For the Evulz.
Chaos having occasionally noble purposes was retconned out of 40k nearly 20 years ago. It's just pure, undiluted evil now.
To serve the population? The high lords are only interested in keeping themselves in power and defending humanity for the sake of it. They care very little about people.
Chaos having noble sides wasn't removed 20 years ago. There were mentions of it in the ast CSM codex and there are still hints towards it.
Chaos is motivated by getting power, the imperium is motivated by keeping power. Not much of a difference.
There are mentions of disiplined chaos (bloodpact are very organised) . Many chaos society do evil things to their enemies but support there own people (there was a short story about some cultists fighting SM and they weren't very different to IG in the way they thought. They cared a lot when the SM killed their family.). this rely isn't much different to what the imperium does.
Yes there are scream psyco cultists but most are just normal with different views. If they spent their lives killing each other how do they ever leave they eye of terror or get anything done. The imperium has it's own share of crazies. I recommend looking at the Ordo Hereticus.
Edit:
Ailaros brings up a good point I forgot to mention. Chaos views itself as right as the imperium does. You will agree with those whose morals you are closest too but that doesn't make them right. Chaos sees killing imperials as the right thing, and the imperium believes it is their job to kill everyone else. Neither are right and neither are wrong.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
FourCartridge wrote:The ends do not justify the means. That's the big moral of the 40k universe.
The ends DO justify the means. That is the theme of 40K.
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Post by: xlightscreen
Like someone said before. Being a civilian in the world of Warhammer 40k isn't always bad. You got to remember that the imperiuim is gigantic. You could easily live your entire life out on a planet and never worry about a invasion or anything else another planet may suffer.
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Post by: Laodamia
Whereas in the Eye of Terror, you will definitely fear for your entire life (which will probably be very short anyway) of getting a chainaxe in the face and seeing your soul being stolen by a Greater Daemon just because he wants a new pet...
Come on guys, the IoM is definitely grimdark and harsh, but Chaos is definitely a lot worse. Except if you are a psychopath or a pervert.
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Post by: Azure
Idk, Nurgle seems one hell of alot more caring then anything else. Living on a daemon world ruled by him wouldn't really be all that bad assuming you're a devoted follower. Hell, on one of his worlds there's a giant conga line round the thing constantly singing to him.
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Post by: Mit Gas
Laodamia wrote:
Come on guys, the IoM is definitely grimdark and harsh, but Chaos is definitely a lot worse. Except if you are a psychopath or a pervert.
EXACTLY! 
Death to the false Emperor and the pathetic subhumans still blind enough to serve him!  For Tzeentch is the one true master of us all.
okay, excuse me. I need my meds. 
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Post by: Mr Meatballs
Chaos are willing to make alliances with aliens A LOT more often than the imperium and have a much more open mind whilst the imperium are like
"DIFFERENT! MUST KILL!"
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Post by: Pilau Rice
Laodamia wrote:
Come on guys, the IoM is definitely grimdark and harsh, but Chaos is definitely a lot worse. Except if you are a psychopath or a pervert.
But even a slave cam learn to love the lash.
If you were born in the Eye of Terror would you know any different?
It's like has been said, it all depends on what side of the fence you are standing on. At least Chaos doesn't hide the fact that they are merciless suppressors that will crush disobedience under a ceramite clad spikey boot.
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
Phototoxin wrote:I think the use of Catholic is unfair and offensive. If I said 'Tau are Muslim Space Communists' there'd be hell to pay...
Sure there's ecclesiastical elements but the RCC generally is against wholescale slaughter.
The "Catholic" part comes in because of the aesthetics and manner of the ecclesiarchy. The "nazi" part comes into play with... everything else. Ironically, it's that side that gets the most favorable light shown on it... Besides, if there actually were daemons and dark gods attempting to destroy humanity, wouldn't the Catholic church promote extreme measures to fight them, things that would be insane and unthinkable in this day and age? A good number of them were all too eager to try much the same thing in the middle ages, when the fevered imaginations of some priests ran wild and they invented a grand daemonic conspiracy to pretend to fight.
4M2A wrote:Chaos stands out as the clear "bad Guy" until you look in depth. There are many very evil imperials and a lot of chaos worshipers who aren't that bad (each chaos god has good sides and is only bad when you loose control). A lot of the worlds in the eye of terror have stable human populations who could arguable be considered better of as there is much a higher chance of freedom.
Both rely on humanities worst qualities. Chaos preys on peoples desires and the imperium uses humanities fear of the unknown to rule.
While one is lead by hungry gods, the imperium is run by greedy humans.
The funny side is that the imperium fights chaos to "save humanity" but the sacrifices they make are as bad as what chaos does. While chaos is dangerous it also gives freedom, something the imperium will never give you.
Chaos is slavery and death. Its lies are seductive, promising the world. Instead it leads to chains on an alter and an agonizing death in sacrifice to some minor daemon. It gives power to only the smallest percent of its followers, those who advance the agenda of this or that petty daemon, in the name of service to mad gods who couldn't care less about the mortal realms, and even the greatest follower of chaos is a slave to a more powerful being, even if they have slaves of their own to torment.
The Imperium only enforces "don't be an idiot: daemons are bad (and want to eat you), xenos are bad (and want to eat you), psykers can explode if they don't know what they're doing (which can lead to daemons, which you will remember are bad and want to eat you), the Emperor is totally cool and stuff, just use your damn head" as an overarching policy. With the exception of the rare mad Inquisitor like Kryptman, the Imperium only slaughters civilians when they're a) infected with genestealers, b) being eaten by tyranids, or c) given over to the worship of the ruinous powers, summoning daemons and slaughtering each other to paint blasphemous runes on things.
The Imperium numbers in the quadrillions. The golden sacrifices how many a day? 10,000 at the most? That's less than 0.000000001% (one billionth of a percent) of the population. Fewer than one in a hundred billion is fed to the golden throne, taken from the weakest, most unstable psykers (who are a threat to themselves and others). More people choke to death on soup ever day than are sacrificed to the golden throne.
If farmers do not work, than hundreds of trillions starve on hive worlds. If one in a thousand civilians didn't join the Imperial Guard, xenos would overrun worlds and and mutant cultists would tear holes into the immaterium, setting free hordes of daemons. If factory workers didn't work than the farmers would have no farm equipment, Guardsmen would have no weapons to fight those that would devour and/or enslave humanity, there would be no ships to carry food to the hive worlds or Guardsmen to the front, etc. Any freedom from labor that Chaos might bring would be summarily followed by hive worlds devouring themselves for lack of food, until either they've cut down their populations to a level that can be sustained by eating mold and sewage, or all the bloodshed has summoned a horde of khornate daemons to devour them. Anarchy doesn't work in populations that number in the thousands, how is it supposed to work in the hundreds of billions?
27553
Post by: Brother Heinrich
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The Imperium is slavery and death. Its lies are seductive, promising Salvation. Instead it leads to chains on an alter and an agonizing death in sacrifice to The Emperor. It gives power to only the smallest percent of its followers, those who advance the agenda of this or that Lord of Terra, in the name of service to The Emperor who couldn't care less about the mortal realms, and even the greatest follower of The Emperor is a slave to a more powerful being.
See how that works both ways? And as far the Eye of Terror/ Maelstrom not containing stable populations and there being no room for an ordered society ruled by chaos, I cite two sources, the book 'Demon World' by Ben Counter, and the book 'Traitor General' by Dan Abnett. both give an in depth look into a chaos held planet and show that for the most part Chaos planets can be much the same as Imperial ones.
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Post by: Rochronos
Mr Meatballs wrote:Platuan4th wrote:wookiedestroyer wrote:Brother Coa wrote:And they think that eternal suffering, madness, betrayal, raping, slaughtering, destroying or simply killing is a characteristic of a good guy?
What drug do they use? I must try some
Ive never read about chaos raping anyone and besides when have space marines (even chaos) ever been able to take off power armour? Please correct me if im wrong but I dont think they can take it off.
Power armor can be removed and no fluff has ever implied differently. CHAOS Armor, however, can not.
Who said anything about taking it off before hand?
exactly.
You think the Emperor's Children don't get involved with a little rapery? Surely Slaanesh has mutated their power armour to afford them some carnal pleasure...just a thought.
27553
Post by: Brother Heinrich
Rochronos wrote:Mr Meatballs wrote:Platuan4th wrote:wookiedestroyer wrote:Brother Coa wrote:And they think that eternal suffering, madness, betrayal, raping, slaughtering, destroying or simply killing is a characteristic of a good guy?
What drug do they use? I must try some
Ive never read about chaos raping anyone and besides when have space marines (even chaos) ever been able to take off power armour? Please correct me if im wrong but I dont think they can take it off.
Power armor can be removed and no fluff has ever implied differently. CHAOS Armor, however, can not.
Who said anything about taking it off before hand?
exactly.
You think the Emperor's Children don't get involved with a little rapery? Surely Slaanesh has mutated their power armour to afford them some carnal pleasure...just a thought.
IIRC there's a part in the Inquisition War series by Ian Watson that talks about a slaaneshi marine with 3 'creatures' growing from his genital area that are each independently raping a female in the planetary govenors harem. So yeah, Emperors Children get down.
39590
Post by: Mr Meatballs
Brother Heinrich wrote:Rochronos wrote:Mr Meatballs wrote:Platuan4th wrote:wookiedestroyer wrote:Brother Coa wrote:And they think that eternal suffering, madness, betrayal, raping, slaughtering, destroying or simply killing is a characteristic of a good guy?
What drug do they use? I must try some
Ive never read about chaos raping anyone and besides when have space marines (even chaos) ever been able to take off power armour? Please correct me if im wrong but I dont think they can take it off.
Power armor can be removed and no fluff has ever implied differently. CHAOS Armor, however, can not.
Who said anything about taking it off before hand?
exactly.
You think the Emperor's Children don't get involved with a little rapery? Surely Slaanesh has mutated their power armour to afford them some carnal pleasure...just a thought.
IIRC there's a part in the Inquisition War series by Ian Watson that talks about a slaaneshi marine with 3 'creatures' growing from his genital area that are each independently raping a female in the planetary govenors harem. So yeah, Emperors Children get down.
How do I get involved in this?
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Post by: Brother Heinrich
Mr Meatballs wrote:How do I get involved in this?
by reading the book.
30301
Post by: Laughing God
Lets simplify the issue. Either you serve a corpse of unimaginable interdimensional power who needs to feed on hundreds of souls and an entire emperium of false hope and lies just to scratch out a living against the galaxies insermountable threats OR you can serve 4 primevial interdimensional beings made up of our own most basic instincts and drives made manifest that want nothing more than to use you for entertainment then use your soul after you die.
Honestly I think on the morality scale one is no worse than the other, the imperium is just wrapped up in a pretty bow. On a scale of which would be better for the individual to serve? The ruinous powers hands down give you the most freedom of desitiny and most likely chance of reward/punishment for your efforts/failures. I would be a servant of chaos without question.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brother Heinrich wrote:Rochronos wrote:Mr Meatballs wrote:Platuan4th wrote:wookiedestroyer wrote:Brother Coa wrote:And they think that eternal suffering, madness, betrayal, raping, slaughtering, destroying or simply killing is a characteristic of a good guy?
What drug do they use? I must try some
Ive never read about chaos raping anyone and besides when have space marines (even chaos) ever been able to take off power armour? Please correct me if im wrong but I dont think they can take it off.
Power armor can be removed and no fluff has ever implied differently. CHAOS Armor, however, can not.
Who said anything about taking it off before hand?
exactly.
You think the Emperor's Children don't get involved with a little rapery? Surely Slaanesh has mutated their power armour to afford them some carnal pleasure...just a thought.
IIRC there's a part in the Inquisition War series by Ian Watson that talks about a slaaneshi marine with 3 'creatures' growing from his genital area that are each independently raping a female in the planetary govenors harem. So yeah, Emperors Children get down.
^ This is why I play EC btw. Hell powered super humans who live for drugs, war, rock, AND sex!? sign me up.
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Post by: Brother Heinrich
wondering when you'd find this thread Doug lol
38572
Post by: Theofilos
I actually cannot find "good guys" on 40000 they all seem bad to me, its an age of unending war there cant be good guys if your race wants to survive. Tho you cant say at all Chaos is good :S you gotta be twisted 
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Post by: Brother Heinrich
Theofilos wrote:I actually cannot find "good guys" on 40000 they all seem bad to me, its an age of unending war there cant be good guys if your race wants to survive.
I concur, up until recently I would've said, "Tau are the only good guys, I mean c'mon, 'Greater Good' anyone?" but now after reading through most of the 5th Ultramarines Novel, I found myself Irrationally hating the Tau as much as the Tyranid, Orks, or any other enemy of man, I think it just comes down to pure survival, when you hold something dear and someone/something wants to change that or take it away, you will percieve them as evil and fight them tooth and nail to preserve your way of life, just as they will theres. In Science Fiction I have yet to see an Alien race just lie down and let mankind conquer it.
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Post by: Theofilos
I merely agree mate tho sometimes making war for "the greater good" is just the same gak in a different box I havent read the 5th Ultramarines novel tho so i just accept when you say about their pure survival insticts
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Post by: Brother Heinrich
Trust me brother after that book you'll be of the opinion; "the only good Tau is a dead tau."
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Post by: Laughing God
I believe the only race that can be precieved as "good" in the current human moral sense is the craftworld eldar. Craftworlds are very peaceful utopias compared to the rest of the 40k universe, are they willing to sacrifice billions of over races to save there own? Sure but do people feel bad when we kill thousands of insects or cattle, same connection in the eldars mind.
But im getting off topic from the OP's. Chaos is not the good guys, in the 41st millenium there are no "good" guys.
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Post by: Brother Heinrich
there is only war. if you want good guys and bad guys go watch transformers.
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Post by: Chaos Lord Gir
I hold the view that Good and Evil are abstract concepts that are defined by the beliefs of the majority or the ones whose opinion holds sway.
I also hold the view that the side with the most stylish armour is by default the bad guys, so BLOOD FOR BLOOD GOD!
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
The difference between the Imperium and Chaos is like that between a modern, first-world government and a street-gang (only with daemons instead of drugs and guns; also, with drugs and guns).
The first is a corrupt but benevolent entity which as a whole is primarily concerned with caring for the people without whom it wouldn't exist, even if the individuals in power are only there out of their own greed, the only way they can remain in power (and amass more of it) is by successfully leading those they are charged with leading. A Planetary governor who starves his people and works them too hard will have reduced productivity and riots on his hands, and if he is too brutal in dealing with them the Inquisition declares him a traitor, burns him alive in front of the populace, and replaces him with someone who's not slowed, especially if his brutality radically reduced the working population, which would cause problems elsewhere. The only toil that is required of Imperial citizens is that which is required to sustain their fellow man. The only restrictions placed on them are cautions against traffic with daemons and xenos, both of which are extreme hazards to humanity. The only sacrifices they forcefully take are from the most dangerous and unstable members of society, who tend to explode and let loose a torrent of daemons if left alone, and the only others they ask for are in service to the protection of humanity.
The latter is a corrupt and malevolent entity which as a whole is primarily concerned with eating you alive, because you look funny when you're writhing in agony and screaming, and the individuals in power slaughtered and manipulated their way there, in the service to daemons, who want nothing in life more than to tear everyone apart and devour their souls. A cult leader who brutally slaughters everyone he can get his hands on will be rewarded, up until the point where he's possessed by a daemon and has his soul devoured in return for his years of devotion. The toil they demand is done in chains, with starvation and beatings as perks, with being skinned alive and raped to death on an altar both the punishment for failure and the reward for success. The restrictions placed upon them are whatever the warp-maddened slavedriver thinks is funny, and the sacrifices demanded ultimately claim all but the most powerful, whether it be on an altar, at the claws of a daemon, or hurling themselves into the guns of their enemies/each other.
TL;DR: Chaos is bad because daemons. Imperium is "good" because no daemons.
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Post by: Grakmar
Ok, I think some people are getting confused. Please observe the following model:
See the wings? The gold armor? The halo? The blond hair?
This is clearly a good guy.
Compared to:
See the black armor? The big scary fist and mace? The colorless skin? A lack of hair? The blood dripping from his mace?
This is clearly a bad guy.
The first guy is a loyalist, the second guy is a traitor.
Chaos is evil.
QED
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Post by: Brother Coa
It seems that nobody here understands the Imperials?
They must constantly control the population because every fool with a little greed is a great potential for planetary independence.
As for killing millions - they do that only when they have no choice. Like the situation where Chaos block entire solar system and what's left of the population retreats to the last Imperial fortress. I would rather like for them to die by my hands then to suffer in the hands of Chaos minions.
Same is for the Chaos corruption and viruses. If the Chaos virus is spread all across population - nothing can be done for them. And Daemon will just go and posses one by one individual. Again - better for them to die by Inquisitorial than Chaos hands.
As for the aliens: name me one alien that do not wish to obliterate us? Tyranids what's to consume us, Orks simply to kill us, Eldar sees us as lesser race, Tau simply want to control us and Necrons wants us dead to. Not much choice for democracy here.
In the end - who are we to judge Imperial ways? Since Mankind embrace the stars in DaoT every alien race we encounter wants to destroy us. Or to simply use us in their twisted purposes. Emperor, Imperial Guard, High Lords and Space Marines are all that stands between us and destruction.
And if you seek the "good guys" in 40k - the closest equivalent to them are the Ultramarines. The way I see them: they saved Imperium from destruction, reorganize legions to bring better stability in the IoM itself, sing a peace treaty with the Tau and work several times with them, have their own empire that makes the rest of the Imperium looks like Nazi state and every time they rushed to protect the civilians - they have never left anyone to die unlike many other chapters.
For me - they are the good guys of 40k.
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Post by: Pilau Rice
Grakmar wrote:
Compared to:
See the black armor? The big scary fist and mace? The colorless skin? A lack of hair? The blood dripping from his mace?
This is clearly a bad guy.
The first guy is a loyalist, the second guy is a traitor.
Chaos is evil.
QED
But he doesn't have a twirable mustache, monocle or white cat.
"I do not expect you to talk Mr Emperor, I expect you to die"
And most of the loyalist Space Marines have no hair!!!
How do we tell who is good and bad hmm hmm?!?!
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Post by: Brother Coa
Pilau Rice wrote:
How do we tell who is good and bad hmm hmm?!?
Easy.
Loyalist will protect you, and they are bound by the code of courage and honor.
Traitors will butcher you, and they are bound only to the will of their gods who commands them to slaughter you.
Hard choice.
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Post by: Brother Heinrich
Grakmar wrote:Ok, I think some people are getting confused. Please observe the following model:
See the wings? The gold armor? The halo? The blond hair?
This is clearly a good guy.
Compared to:
See the black armor? The big scary fist and mace? The colorless skin? A lack of hair? The blood dripping from his mace?
This is clearly a bad guy.
The first guy is a loyalist, the second guy is a traitor.
Chaos is evil.
QED
Observe the following Picture:
CLEARLY a good guy right? Automatically Appended Next Post: Look! more GOOD guys!
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Post by: Brother Coa
Brother Heinrich wrote:
Observe the following Picture:
CLEARLY a good guy right?
Well, Rambo is a good guy to. And he is always covered in Russian blood.
And Space Marines are Humanities Angels of Death, what did you expect? Flowers on shoulder-pads?
And they are the good guys, this picture proves it:
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Post by: Cnevets
^Lawyered^
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Post by: Brother Heinrich
all KINDS of good coming off this guy
[image]http://lh4.ggpht.com/_v-QnkPLGATg/S3TSpyC8YSI/AAAAAAAABOE/uKgLNq29nxA/s800/jetbike_lg.jpg[/image]
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Post by: Brother Coa
The good guys.
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Post by: Brother Heinrich
all KINDS of good coming off this guy
 Automatically Appended Next Post: all I'm getting is a difference in Iconography gents.
LAWYERED
Automatically Appended Next Post: in fact the guy below has LESS spikes than the loyalist!
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Post by: gloomygrim
The IoM are the good guys, if slightly over extreme in being so. Theres only so far being a good guy will take you beofr eyou end up looking evil, exterminatus for example, deny a planet to the enemy at cost of civilian lives, pretty evil to kill a whole world of people just to stop the enemy taking it, but pretty good to stop the enemy taking it and tourturing everyone and just generally being a bunch of tools.
I dont think either the IoM or chaos are truly good or evil, i think the clostest ones to being truly good is the nids as they dont act upon anything but the need to survive and eat, and the orks cuz orks just do what arks are ment to do and the clostest to being evil are the crons.
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Post by: FourCartridge
gloomygrim wrote:
I dont think either the IoM or chaos are truly good or evil, i think the clostest ones to being truly good is the nids as they dont act upon anything but the need to survive and eat, and the orks cuz orks just do what arks are ment to do and the clostest to being evil are the crons.
I really don't think Blue and Orange Morality is an excuse to stop being nice. Just because the other guy has different morals than you doesn't mean they don't apply to your behavior towards him, and I don't care how much of an Ubersmech you are.
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Post by: gloomygrim
FourCartridge wrote:gloomygrim wrote:
I dont think either the IoM or chaos are truly good or evil, i think the clostest ones to being truly good is the nids as they dont act upon anything but the need to survive and eat, and the orks cuz orks just do what arks are ment to do and the clostest to being evil are the crons.
I really don't think Blue and Orange Morality is an excuse to stop being nice. Just because the other guy has different morals than you doesn't mean they don't apply to your behavior towards him, and I don't care how much of an Ubersmech you are.
True being an arse over a difference is arsey but an ork was never nice and your morals and what not dont matter your just something to crack round the face and i doubt any nid understands the concept of morality to them everything is food.
To the IoM it only matters that you follow what is said, how they get that done may not be right to the people that dont show enough faith but its right for the masses. and not all the chaos gods are evil, fatty ahem nurgle is aperantly a nice god lol.
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
Brother Heinrich wrote:
all I'm getting is a difference in Iconography gents.
Difference in iconography? The iconography and aesthetics are the only things that are practically identical. Both may be filthy mutants in antique armor, but the traitor legions are warp maddened psychopaths, while the loyalists are just noble idiots who will throw themselves onto the enemy in pathetically small numbers with all the tactical acumen of a brick rather than just nuke everything from orbit (technically the traitors do this too, but they do it so they can MAIMKILLBURN in person, which they find more fun), unless the entire world is being consumed by tyranids or daemons.
There's really no comparison. The servants of the Imperium act first and foremost to protect humanity from existential threats, such as daemons, xenos, and rogue psykers, and to preserve the functioning of society so that the hundreds of trillions living on hive worlds don't starve to death. The servants of chaos act first and foremost to feed people to daemons, for power or amusement, and to undermine and collapse human society so that those hundreds of trillions starve to death or eat each other, primarily because they find it funny.
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Post by: Laodamia
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
There's really no comparison. The servants of the Imperium act first and foremost to protect humanity from existential threats, such as daemons, xenos, and rogue psykers, and to preserve the functioning of society so that the hundreds of trillions living on hive worlds don't starve to death. The servants of chaos act first and foremost to feed people to daemons, for power or amusement, and to undermine and collapse human society so that those hundreds of trillions starve to death or eat each other, primarily because they find it funny.
Yes, unfortunately for the IoM, Chaos worshipers have a lot of humor...
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Post by: skysky
Ailaros wrote:Meh, morals are human constructs. By extension, who is a "good guy" and who is a "bad guy" is dependent entirely upon the fabrication of the observer.
Both the imperium and chaos forces are working in their self-interest for the benefit of themselves and their constituancy. The only wiggle room here is their methodology, but I hardly see anyone coming out for the better when chaos rips apart human beings to add skulls to a giant pile on one hand, and the imperium unleashing an aerosolized super-virus killing all life on a planet on the other.
Bingo! DING,DING,DING!!! Morals and ethics are a cultural creation. You guys ever heard of "Cultural Relativism"? To us chaos seems evil, but step into their shoes for a bit. From a modern western perspective the IOM is a terrible thing. Granted their intentions are good, but so are terrorists, and so are the acts of psychopaths(in their own mind). So everything is relative. Chaos sees their way as a way of being rewarded for your achievements, devotion and desire, and fighting what they Believe to be wrong. Catholics believe in heaven and sin, Muslims believe in 72 virgins, Chaos has its own beliefs.
If you have read the Ghaunt's Ghosts series chaos has an infrastructure and what we would consider to a lesser extent empires of its own. Hell, the occupational forces on Gereon don't seem like they have it bad at all. The main purpose for occupying Gereon was to use its resources(i.e. soil, food and water, which were used) for its own populations on other planets. So killing and raping for no reason goes out the window with that, they too are trying to survive and prosper. Who is to say their culture and ways are wrong, there are people that say the western world is wrong, so everyone points fingers around the room and nobody is right in the end. That is the purpose I think, you can flip it either way and it still just melts together into this blob called humanity. There is no black and white, just a smear.
Besides who is gonna point out that the crazies are normies and the normies are really the crazies
For the angel vs. chaos picture: you can't really compare on looks. The angel is pretty and clean and triggers in your brain "ooh shiny, good". Whereas the chaos image could be seen as a warrior dedicated to his cause, the greeks wore dark scary looking armor and parraded around with bloody battle trophies, so did knights and indians and huns and incans and americans and..........who is to say his image is evil, angels are evil. Lucifer is supposedly a fallen angel who went against god, so hey to me those pretty wings and blonde hair might just be an image of the devil...seee?
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Post by: Pilau Rice
Brother Coa wrote:Pilau Rice wrote:
How do we tell who is good and bad hmm hmm?!?
Easy.
Loyalist will protect you, and they are bound by the code of courage and honor.
Traitors will butcher you, and they are bound only to the will of their gods who commands them to slaughter you.
Hard choice.
My question was tongue in cheek due to the lack of hair comment by Grakmar.
Brother Coa wrote:
The good guys.
The Dark Eldar doesn't think the Marine is a good guy, he's punched him in the face and is trying to steal his poontang
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Post by: yeenoghu
The Nazis calling the Satanists evil? I agree its cultural relativism, but being deliberately contrary to something is a reflection of the thing being contradicted, not of the thing that takes its place.
(like Satanism would not exist without Christianity for it to contradict, there would be no Chaos worshippers if they didn't have an IoM to lose faith in and seek other gods instead, the existance of chaos worshippers says something about the IoM)
At least Chaos worshippers have no delusions of righteousness, that kind of thing left the moment they got their first tentacle.
AS per the OP's thing about Chaos having human sacrifices... um... what do you call the daily psyker headcount to sustain the zombie toilet?
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Post by: Brother Coa
yeenoghu wrote:AS per the OP's thing about Chaos having human sacrifices... um... what do you call the daily psyker headcount to sustain the zombie toilet?
You will burn for heresy against our god and savior!!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Pilau Rice wrote:
The Dark Eldar doesn't think the Marine is a good guy, he's punched him in the face and is trying to steal his poontang
And I see that she is quite willing to go with him and to be tortured for the rest of her life.
I am sorry, Marines are still the good guys. Just look the Ultramarines - how can they be bad guys with all their bolters and blue armor? 
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Post by: Brother Heinrich
Pilau Rice wrote:
The Dark Eldar doesn't think the Marine is a good guy, he's punched him in the face and is trying to steal his poontang
Women are the root of all this, there'd be no reason to B*tch slap the crap out of that Dark Eldar if there wasn't a woman involved.
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Post by: Laodamia
Damn, I can't believe some people are still trying to argue Chaos is good. This is nonsense.
I agree that in the Gaunt's Ghost series, we see some examples of organised and functioning chaotic cultures. But it does not mean that the principles upon which these cultures were created are good. Think about Nazi Germany, which had unquestionably the most unfair and evil social policies of human history. As a society, Nazi Germany was working relatively well. It was one of the first countries to fully recover from the Great Crisis of 1930. By the the end of that decade, its industry had become powerful enough to initiate the greatest military effort ever seen at the time. It doesn't mean this society had a "good" basis though.
Some chaos worshipers and cultists could be motivated by good intentions. They might be desperately trying to improve the lives of their families or to protect their world from the Imperium's wrath. But this is definitely not the case for CSM, daemons and the vast majority of the chaotic minions. Because they think they are doing something right and fair doesn't mean their actions are not evil. Would you say a psychopathic killer is good simply because in his tortured mind, he thinks he's doing something right?
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Post by: Pilau Rice
Brother Coa wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:
The Dark Eldar doesn't think the Marine is a good guy, he's punched him in the face and is trying to steal his poontang
And I see that she is quite willing to go with him and to be tortured for the rest of her life.
No.. she's actually shouting 'hey you donkey-cave, you've punched my boyfriend after we've just sat down to start our lovely picnic'
You can actually see a plate in the bottom right had corner
Perhaps she loves that S&M shizzle, I know I do
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Post by: Brother Heinrich
Laodamia wrote:I agree that in the Gaunt's Ghost series, we see some examples of organised and functioning chaotic cultures. But it does not mean that the principles upon which these cultures were created are good. Think about Nazi Germany, which had unquestionably the most unfair and evil social policies of human history. As a society, Nazi Germany was working relatively well. It was one of the first countries to fully recover from the Great Crisis of 1930. By the the end of that decade, its industry had become powerful enough to initiate the greatest military effort ever seen at the time. It doesn't mean this society had a "good" basis though.
wait a minute, you're going to use Nazi germany as an example and say that the Imperium is benevolent in comparison? they're both equally bad thats the point. The good that could've come from the Imperium Died in the flames of the horus heresy and its original ideals have had 10,000 years to corrode to the point where in some ways they are no better than chaos.
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Post by: tavoittamaton
For some reason this thread reminds me of a quote from The Departed
Frank Costello wrote:When I was your age they would say we can become cops, or criminals. Today, what I'm saying to you is this: when you're facing a loaded gun, what's the difference?
Not to belabor the points made, but 40k comes down to protagonists (whichever side you play) and antagonists (whoever is lined up on the other side of the table). The fact that there are arguments over who are the "good guys" just illustrates the lack of any faction with a majority of characteristics we define as good; or, at least, without some glaring characteristics we define as evil.
One thing that I think is never taken into account is that the galaxy is in a state of constant war. If you look at mankind's comparatively brief history on this planet, the relationship between a government and its citizenry changes drastically when an outside threat presents itself which the government feels it must protect its people from. These are often the times that the most authoritarian, draconian doctrines emerge. To use an American perspective, we have the PATRIOT Act after 9/11, the Japanese internment during WW2, and martial law in the border states that did not secede during the Civil War -- and this is far from an exhaustive list. The IoM have been at war for longer than any of its citizens have been alive -- longer than anyone except the big E himself. It's not surprising that they rule with such a heavy hand.
Now that I think of it, there's another quote that comes to mind, more 40k related. I think it encapsulates the mindset well:
“Who is to judge what is right and what is wrong? Great and powerful foes surround us; unknown miscreants gnaw at us from within. We are threatened with total annihilation. In days such as these we can afford no luxury of morality.”
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Post by: Laodamia
Brother Heinrich wrote:
wait a minute, you're going to use Nazi germany as an example and say that the Imperium is benevolent in comparison? they're both equally bad thats the point. The good that could've come from the Imperium Died in the flames of the horus heresy and its original ideals have had 10,000 years to corrode to the point where in some ways they are no better than chaos.
I never said that the IoM was benevolent in comparison of Nazi Germany. And I never said either that Chaos could be compared to Nazi Germany. I used the example of Nazi Germany to prove that a functioning society can be evil.
Why is Chaos evil in the first place? Because it is its basic nature. Chaos is finds its origin in the warp, the Empyrean. It is formed from the worst emotions of the sentient species of the galaxy (since humanity is the dominant species, it strongly influences Chaos' nature), such as the fear of death, lust, anger, etc. This is why Chaos is evil at the most basic level. Its nature is evil. It means that daemons and other creatures formed from the warp will be evil and dangerous. There is no "good" or love in a daemon's mind. I know some of you are going to point out Papa Nurgle's affection for his followers. But this "love" is only a perverted and twisted image of a human emotion.
I agree that some lower chaos worshipers can have some good intentions and motivations, but these good emotions disappear sooner or later in the cultist's mind as he descends deeper into daemon hood.
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Post by: Brother Coa
Laodamia wrote:
I never said that the IoM was benevolent in comparison of Nazi Germany. And I never said either that Chaos could be compared to Nazi Germany. I used the example of Nazi Germany to prove that a functioning society can be evil.
Why is Chaos evil in the first place? Because it is its basic nature. Chaos is finds its origin in the warp, the Empyrean. It is formed from the worst emotions of the sentient species of the galaxy (since humanity is the dominant species, it strongly influences Chaos' nature), such as the fear of death, lust, anger, etc. This is why Chaos is evil at the most basic level. Its nature is evil. It means that daemons and other creatures formed from the warp will be evil and dangerous. There is no "good" or love in a daemon's mind. I know some of you are going to point out Papa Nurgle's affection for his followers. But this "love" is only a perverted and twisted image of a human emotion.
I agree that some lower chaos worshipers can have some good intentions and motivations, but these good emotions disappear sooner or later in the cultist's mind as he descends deeper into daemon hood.
You are right, but the point is that this topic is about who is the good guy, Imperials or Chaos. Frankly IMHO either one of them are, not even the Tau. But when you look on a different way, Space Marines and IG are fighting for the survival of the entire race, they do not torture or butcher people in the process. But some people this days are pretty simple and believe to the one point on the canvas for painting without looking the entire picture.
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Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
Brother Heinrich wrote:Observe the following Picture:
CLEARLY a good guy right?
Ah yes, as we all know, being a fierce soldier utterly dedicated to killing the guys that threaten the survival of Humankind is OBVIOUSLY bad if you show any signs of being in battle. That's just not cricket - real good guys remain clean as the purity of their souls wipes away all blood.
Jus' sayin', is all.
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Post by: skysky
Brother Coa wrote:Laodamia wrote:
I never said that the IoM was benevolent in comparison of Nazi Germany. And I never said either that Chaos could be compared to Nazi Germany. I used the example of Nazi Germany to prove that a functioning society can be evil.
Why is Chaos evil in the first place? Because it is its basic nature. Chaos is finds its origin in the warp, the Empyrean. It is formed from the worst emotions of the sentient species of the galaxy (since humanity is the dominant species, it strongly influences Chaos' nature), such as the fear of death, lust, anger, etc. This is why Chaos is evil at the most basic level. Its nature is evil. It means that daemons and other creatures formed from the warp will be evil and dangerous. There is no "good" or love in a daemon's mind. I know some of you are going to point out Papa Nurgle's affection for his followers. But this "love" is only a perverted and twisted image of a human emotion.
I agree that some lower chaos worshipers can have some good intentions and motivations, but these good emotions disappear sooner or later in the cultist's mind as he descends deeper into daemon hood.
You are right, but the point is that this topic is about who is the good guy, Imperials or Chaos. Frankly IMHO either one of them are, not even the Tau. But when you look on a different way, Space Marines and IG are fighting for the survival of the entire race, they do not torture or butcher people in the process. But some people this days are pretty simple and believe to the one point on the canvas for painting without looking the entire picture.
...Well the Tyranid are fighting for survival. Many people find them evil. And you can't say say its just organismic action reaction with the whole hive mind and higher thinking its capable of. But thats getting OT Automatically Appended Next Post: Laodamia wrote:Brother Heinrich wrote:
wait a minute, you're going to use Nazi germany as an example and say that the Imperium is benevolent in comparison? they're both equally bad thats the point. The good that could've come from the Imperium Died in the flames of the horus heresy and its original ideals have had 10,000 years to corrode to the point where in some ways they are no better than chaos.
I never said that the IoM was benevolent in comparison of Nazi Germany. And I never said either that Chaos could be compared to Nazi Germany. I used the example of Nazi Germany to prove that a functioning society can be evil.
Why is Chaos evil in the first place? Because it is its basic nature. Chaos is finds its origin in the warp, the Empyrean. It is formed from the worst emotions of the sentient species of the galaxy (since humanity is the dominant species, it strongly influences Chaos' nature), such as the fear of death, lust, anger, etc. This is why Chaos is evil at the most basic level. Its nature is evil. It means that daemons and other creatures formed from the warp will be evil and dangerous. There is no "good" or love in a daemon's mind. I know some of you are going to point out Papa Nurgle's affection for his followers. But this "love" is only a perverted and twisted image of a human emotion.
I agree that some lower chaos worshipers can have some good intentions and motivations, but these good emotions disappear sooner or later in the cultist's mind as he descends deeper into daemon hood.
Chaos is evil in essence because the viewing culture chooses to shun those emotions and label them evil. Again, evil, the definition, and perspective are relative to the viewer. Chaos is forged from the worst emotions and "fear of death" as you put it but all of those emotions are human and the fear of death is the driving purpose for the IOM. Chaos is one in the same as humanity, just the traits that society shuns but all humans have. when you point the finger its at mirror, hence why I said its like a blob that melts into one thing.
P.S. I finished Ghaunt's Ghosts series a few months ago and it was pretty good. Kind of fade of into the sunset ending which I didn't expect though.
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Post by: 4M2A
Both sides only do what they do because they see it as right. Good and evil are perceptions, nothing more. As there isn't any universal right and wrong its impossible to say these any faction is wrong. A CSM may kill and torture thousands but it's just your his opinion against yours as to whether it's right or wrong. No actions or motives are good or evil. You may say that it's completely evil to kill an innocent person, a chaos worshiper can equally say it's their right to do so. To you it may seem awful to think that but they will have as much belief in their ideas as you do in your beliefs. What makes your belief more important than them. They aren't crazy / evil they just have a different view.
In the future our culture will change and so will our morals, does that make our ideas wrong? Does it mean that in the future everyone will be evil? Our morals aren't any better than any other cultures, the only thing we have to judge by are personal views which are by their nature biased.
Another example, Most people will openly admit they hate nazis. However if they had won WW2 and invaded us, our beliefs would be very different. We would argue with the same conviction, that nazis are right and that are culture now is evil- neither side would have any more proof than the other. The only reason that nazis are hated is because they lost- and as has already been said good or bad isn't connected to power and effeciency.
As sure as you are that your belief is "good" if you actualy look at it there is no proof that isn't biased. this makes it impossible to judge.
The best you can do is to find the side you relate to most and support them, but this doesn't mean they are right.
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Post by: Brother Coa
4M2A wrote:Both sides only do what they do because they see it as right. Good and evil are perceptions, nothing more. As there isn't any universal right and wrong its impossible to say these any faction is wrong. A CSM may kill and torture thousands but it's just your his opinion against yours as to whether it's right or wrong. No actions or motives are good or evil. You may say that it's completely evil to kill an innocent person, a chaos worshiper can equally say it's their right to do so. To you it may seem awful to think that but they will have as much belief in their ideas as you do in your beliefs. What makes your belief more important than them. They aren't crazy / evil they just have a different view.
After this you have said billions of Christians around the world are sad because their sacrifices are for nothing because Satan is not a bad guy after all.
That is my response after reading this. You cannot justify Chaos - because the very essence of it is evil. "Good and evil are perceptions, nothing more" - that is not true. Your decision determine you character, it is important to you as air that we breathe. And there is universal right and wrong, it is called moral and it is the building material for every religion and civilization today and in sci-fi universes. Moral forms the basic law of one individual, what is good and bad. And if I do have a right to kill someone, that do not means that it is a good decision.
And you say that Chaos are not crazy? Hmmm... let's ask for third opinion: the radical Tau Empire. How do they call Chaos marines: "Human madman".
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Post by: Laodamia
4M2A wrote:
In the future our culture will change and so will our morals, does that make our ideas wrong? Does it mean that in the future everyone will be evil? Our morals aren't any better than any other cultures, the only thing we have to judge by are personal views which are by their nature biased.
Burning and torturing people for the sheer pleasure it can provide you was never considered good by any culture ever in our long history. Even our worst dictatorships never promoted such ideas. To take the example of Nazi Germany again, Nazis persecuted Jewish people because they thought they were "bettering" humanity by slaughtering the "sub-humans". Not because they took any particular pleasure in doing so.
This is not the case for Chaos (I mean daemons and the like), who will definitely seek pleasure by inflicting as much pain as possible on the mortals. This is unquestionably evil, no matter the point of view. I am pretty sure most Chaos entities are conscious that their actions are evil, and that they find much pleasure in that fact, because it means that they do something that their preys are unable of achieving (hence the feeling of power and pleasure).
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
Chaos isn't an example of subjective morality. Daemons aren't "misunderstood." Chaos taints, mutates, maddens, and ultimately destroys those touched by it. This isn't a case of "we have different ideals" it's "worshiping Chaos counts as Too Dumb to Live."
Dark Eldar are an example of subjective morality. They do many of the horrible things chaos worshipers do, with one crucial difference: they hate daemons and the warp just as much as the most pious Inquisitor does, if not more so. Probably something to do with the whole "constantly feeling the claws of Slaanesh draining away their souls" thing.
So when the Dark Eldar get together and have a giant orgy consisting of slaves getting skinned alive by wyches (while jumping from floating platform to floating platform above the crowd), everyone just has a fun time. When Chaos worshipers do this, daemons explode from nowhere and eat everyone.
So, to sum up: Daemons are why Chaos is objectively bad. "Bad" as in "extremely stupid," not "bad" as in "evil."
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Post by: 4M2A
There are culture who regularly inflicted large amounts of pain to people, sacrificed other humans and thought it was the normal thing to do. Many cultures have regularly raided others and have built their lives around it.
Again all thse judgements are coming from your personal opinion. Chaos worships be as sure they are right as you believe they are wrong. As there is no proof saying any morals are better than others (more prodcutive to society yes but chaos doesn't need this) it's just one opinion against another.
The daemons seek pleasure in hurting people, yes thats true. However may of us get pleasure from eating a burger. I'm sure to a cow that makes us monsters but the majority of us see it as perfectly normal- we just don't care. It may not be as extreme but we are still unneccessarily harming animals ( we have suitable alternatives to meat that we can survive on) for our own benefit.
Daemons do the same thing. We regularly put our intrests above those of others, chaos worshipers put their intrests above ours. Chaos has the same view of superiority that current humans do over animals, and that imperial humans do over xenos.
It's impossible to argue about a daemons morals becuase we don't even know how much free thought they are capable of. They are created in the image of their god which is the embodiment of an emotion. A lot of information suggests they have as much control over there nature as nids do.
As for being stupid, its a matter of balancing up the risks and rewards. If you follow the emperor you get an safe life (if your lucky), an you may be able to advance your position if life but in most cases you can only go a small distance before you reach as high as you can. If your unlucky the imperium will force into a dangerous job or you may get sacrificed for the good of the imperium. You can be zealous and the perfect imperial citizen but chances are no one will notice. Once you die thing's don't really get better. You may go to the emperor or you may get eaten by daemons, no one really has any solid proof either way. Sre you may become a imperial saint but the chances are almost nothing.
Chaos on the other have a lot more to offer but you have to risk everything. If you are willing to risk yourself and work hard for chaos there are much higher rewards. The gods show there apreciation, a tentacle might not seem very useful but many chaos worshiper like it just because they can see the gods actually care. In the end there are 2 options for chaos:
Death- not much a worse ending than for an imperial worshiper. You go to the warp. If you get eaten by a daemon thats it, humans aren't pschic enough to feel it so they just end at death. For a zealous chaos worshiper going to their gods realm is good. You get to do whatever you did in life for ever.
Imortality- your imortal, you become a daemopn prince and do what ever you like. Seems like a good advance from being a normal human. You can carry on killing imperials if you want to gain power of just sit back on your personal world inside the eye of terror and do what ever you want.
Chaos just have different values and priorities to us they see different traits as good. In it's most extreme form they believe in authority going to the strongest and that the only rights you have are those you cangive yourself. This isn't too different to many past human cultures.
If you read some of the WHFB (granted it's not 40k but it still shows chaos worshipers characters and chaos is the same in both games) chaos fluff. There is a lot more about what the normal chaos human thinks.
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
Chaos offers only an illusory glimmer of hope for those who are already powerful. A peasant in the Imperium will be a tortured slave under Chaos. A planetary governor may enjoy more power than under the Imperium, until someone above him decides his skin would look absolutely fabulous made into a cape. Only the very most cunning and criminally insane find power in Chaos, for everyone else there's only torture and death.
Daemons are insane beings that want nothing more than to despoil, torture, and ultimately obliterate everything they can get their hands on. You are not a Daemon, ergo looking at things from the Daemon's point of view is pointless. Going over to the service of Daemons is insane, and contradicts every driving force behind the human mind, from instinct to reason. They bring untold torment to everything within their grasp, with the very worst saved for those who serve them.
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Post by: Alkasyn
Brother Heinrich wrote:Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The Imperium is slavery and death. Its lies are seductive, promising Salvation. Instead it leads to chains on an alter and an agonizing death in sacrifice to The Emperor. It gives power to only the smallest percent of its followers, those who advance the agenda of this or that Lord of Terra, in the name of service to The Emperor who couldn't care less about the mortal realms, and even the greatest follower of The Emperor is a slave to a more powerful being.
See how that works both ways?
And as far the Eye of Terror/ Maelstrom not containing stable populations and there being no room for an ordered society ruled by chaos, I cite two sources, the book 'Demon World' by Ben Counter, and the book 'Traitor General' by Dan Abnett. both give an in depth look into a chaos held planet and show that for the most part Chaos planets can be much the same as Imperial ones.
Or check the book from the Ultramarines series , Dead Sky, Black Sun, where a planet ruled over by the Iron Warriors is a desolate wasteland which could easily serve as hell on earth to the slaves who inhabit it.
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Post by: 4M2A
The imperial worlds aren't so great either. They have their own worlds were the entire planet is so focused on production all the population do is work. They may not be called slaves but they are treated like them.
Most things that chaos do the imperium do, they just aren't so honest about it.
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Post by: Laodamia
As far as I know, the Imperium never tried trap its people's souls for all eternity.
Chaos does it every day. It is even the most basic thing they do.
Saying that the IoM does the same things as Chaos is failing to see the situation in the 41st millenium as a whole. Humanity is besieged on all sides. It is constantly raided by Chaos worhsipers, eldar and DE pirates. Its borders are constantly attacked by renegade or Xenos empires. Entire sectors are being devoured by swarms of Tyranids. The IoM is a harsh, uncaring, unfair and totalitarian regime. It sends billions of guardsmen to death everyday. Uncountable millions of imperial citizens work in hellish conditions to feed the war effort. But the IoM is mankind's only hope of survival. It is not a good regime. But its sole aim is to ensure that mankind survives and defeats its countless enemies.
If you think the IoM is evil, or at least as evil as Chaos, try to imagine a galaxy ruled by Chaos, and you will really understand what hell on Earth means.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Laodamia wrote:As far as I know, the Imperium never tried trap its people's souls for all eternity.
Bwa HA HA. Wrong. The IoM sacrifices more people on a weekly basis than Chaos does. It's called the golden throne.
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Post by: Laodamia
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Laodamia wrote:As far as I know, the Imperium never tried trap its people's souls for all eternity.
Bwa HA HA. Wrong. The IoM sacrifices more people on a weekly basis than Chaos does. It's called the golden throne.
Nope, it is not wrong. The IoM does sacrifice psykers to fuel the Astronomican and the Golden Throne, but IIRC, they souls are not slaved to the Golden Toilet or the Holy Flashlight forever. They simply fade and die while fueling these two artifacts. Big E doesn't play with their souls for all eternity just because he is bored. Chaos Daemons, on the other hand...
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Post by: Soo'Vah'Cha
Hmmm I think its pretty plain in all the multitude of books and portrayals of Chaos, that they are pretty much fully and totally corrupt and debased and evil beyond all human comprehension, and that we would be mere pawns..or slaves to darkness should they triumph, humans matter about as much to the gods of Chaos as the grains of sand beneath your feet when you walk along the beach matter to a schoolgirl in Edo who has just lost her favorite hair clip...I.E. not at all.
Humans may sacrifice, and abuse and commit all forms of seemingly evil acts but in the final resolution we would seem like choirboys compared to what Chaos will/would do if it fully held sway, and no chaos does not want to merely feed off mankind for all eternity, that would imply stasis, and chaos is about change and mutation, they want everything to fall into ruin so the next may rise...and that fall as well, thats why the gods of chaos are such busy little beavers in advancing their aggendas.....gotta fill quotas
I am reminded of a saying " The greatest victory the Devil has won, is convincing us all he does not exist."
I think Chaos worshippers would advance this whole "chaos is no more evil than your current regime" thing to death merely to mask the true torment they have waiting for you.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Laodamia wrote:KamikazeCanuck wrote:Laodamia wrote:As far as I know, the Imperium never tried trap its people's souls for all eternity.
Bwa HA HA. Wrong. The IoM sacrifices more people on a weekly basis than Chaos does. It's called the golden throne.
Nope, it is not wrong. The IoM does sacrifice psykers to fuel the Astronomican and the Golden Throne, but IIRC, they souls are not slaved to the Golden Toilet or the Holy Flashlight forever. They simply fade and die while fueling these two artifacts. Big E doesn't play with their souls for all eternity just because he is bored. Chaos Daemons, on the other hand...
Ok, once again they don't sacrifice psykers for The Astronomicon. As a matter a fact its considered an honour to serve. You are right they don't slave souls to the throne just kidnap you in the night and destroy your soul permanently for how you were born. I guess that is slightly better.
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Laodamia wrote:As far as I know, the Imperium never tried trap its people's souls for all eternity.
Bwa HA HA. Wrong. The IoM sacrifices more people on a weekly basis than Chaos does. It's called the golden throne.
Less than one billionth of a percent of the Imperial population is sacrificed to it on a daily basis, going by the largest, most insane figures provided (10,000 a day), and all from the weakest, most unstable psykers, who would meet far more horrific ends if left to their own devices. And despite outnumbering Chaos cultists billions to one, I dare guess that the cultists still manage to beat those numbers, at least when averaged over time, and certainly sacrifice a much, much larger percent of their followers, and not solely taken from people who tend to have daemons burst out of their heads anyways (although that's frequently a side effect of the sacrificial process...).
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Post by: Dark
I don't understand why some try to put WH40K factions into black and white dichotomies... when what you only have are shades of dark grey.
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Post by: thebaroness
Put it this way... what would be the difference between your world being invaded by World Eaters, and "saved" from said World Eaters by Flesh Tearers, or Blood Angels before their retcon/beatification?
Oh, and I would argue that Tyranids are probably the only force I'd consider "good". Why? They represent the best chance of wiping the galaxy clean and giving it a needed reboot. Maybe if the Chaos powers and the Emperor are taken out of the equation, the Milky Way can finally implode on itself and a new galaxy can emerge that is significantly less screwed sideways.
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Post by: Dark
Now you're thinking the imperial way
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
KamikazeCanuck wrote: You are right they don't slave souls to the throne just kidnap you in the night and destroy your soul permanently for how you were born. I guess that is slightly better.
I don't think it destroys the soul. The body is wasted into nothing, yes, but the souls aren't obliterated or enslaved for eternity.
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
Human souls are already obliterated on death, unless the individual in question is extremely strong willed or a more powerful being intervenes. Well, the identity of the soul, anyways; some flayed shred of the energy that comprised it might remain, but it couldn't really be said to be its former owner's soul at that point.
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Post by: Brother Coa
thebaroness wrote:
Oh, and I would argue that Tyranids are probably the only force I'd consider "good". Why? They represent the best chance of wiping the galaxy clean and giving it a needed reboot. Maybe if the Chaos powers and the Emperor are taken out of the equation, the Milky Way can finally implode on itself and a new galaxy can emerge that is significantly less screwed sideways.
Reboot? yeah, sure if they left at least one planet ALIVE!!!
They are the worst race to fight with, not because it is difficult to defeat them - but because they don't left anything after them. If they win in 40k, there will be no planets to sustain any kind of life in the galaxy. Just like the Necrons, difference is they left planet to live, Tyranids don't. Automatically Appended Next Post: 4M2A wrote:The imperial worlds aren't so great either. They have their own worlds were the entire planet is so focused on production all the population do is work. They may not be called slaves but they are treated like them.
Most things that chaos do the imperium do, they just aren't so honest about it.
Yeah, sure. And our parents and friends and we are slaves to have a job and work third of the day.
What do Imperial citizens do is WORK, it's essential thing to one's survival. And they are not forced to, they only work double shifts when they world face attack. And there are indeed "slaves" in Imperial industry, these are hard criminals who instead to be put in Penal Legions are put in Imperial war factories to produce munition and gear for the Guard.
Not true, those 10.000 psykers that sacrifice for the golden throne are doing so freely. And why not? Terra alone has trillions of citizens, if few thousand must be sacrificed for the grater good - so be it. You are only saying Imperials are not the good guys because their treatment to their citizens, they are treating them like our government are treating us. Difference is that our world is not in constant danger to be destroyed, and we are not in constant danger to be consumed by daemons. And you call them the bad guys because they are tend to kill millions sometimes - that thing is justified. Like Vulkans said in Star Trek: "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." If one world must be sacrificed to stop Tyranid invasion of Chaos plague, so be it.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
The 10,000 psykers sacrificed to the throne are not doing it freely. They are inquisiton prisoners. That's why inquisitors are mostly known as witchhunters.
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Post by: 1hadhq
It doesn't matter if untrained witches "want" to support Mankinds
survival, but allowing Demons to enter into the material realm
will do no good so the fate of the psykers found lacking the strength to control their "gifts" is the least evil solution and a efficent way to use ressources.
Witchhunters hunt witches, not trained psykers, would be psykerhunters otherwise....
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
So the debate often comes down to well the IoM may destroy 10,000 souls a day but chaos enslaves 10,001 which is more evil. And I agree. However just because the IoM is less evil than Hell doesn't make it "good." A necessary evil is still be definition evil.
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Post by: 1hadhq
But as chaos is Hell, they are the definition of evil and thus never
good. And the subject is chaos here.
If or if not the IoM is good changes nothing of the fact of chaos
beeing the evil side in any game universe.
You cannot declare someone good because someone else
is "more evil". Its always about the deeds of the subject itself.
Chaos fails there at "goodness".
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
They certainly do.
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
KamikazeCanuck wrote:So the debate often comes down to well the IoM may destroy 10,000 souls a day but chaos enslaves 10,001 which is more evil. And I agree. However just because the IoM is less evil than Hell doesn't make it "good." A necessary evil is still be definition evil.
Except it doesn't even qualify as a necessary evil: it's a humane death for those psykers who would otherwise die horrifically becoming vessels for daemons (which would also be a horrific death for everyone around them), all in the service of facilitating interstellar travel, without which hundreds of trillions would starve, and there would be no troops or warships in place to repel invasion or put down chaos uprisings. And yet we are to believe that using less than one billionth of a percent of the population to keep the beacon that facilitates all travel throughout the galaxy running, thus saving the individuals sacrificed from horrific death by daemonic possession and saving the quadrillions (conservative estimate) of other Imperial citizens from horrible deaths by starvation, xenos incursions, and daemons summoned by insane Chaos cults is "evil"?
Now, how much of the total human population is given over to Chaos worship? The Imperial Guard is somewhere around a thousandth of the population, on the outside, are there more or fewer Chaos worshipers than there are Guardsmen? If Chaos worshipers sacrificed even just one percent of their population a year, they would have to make up less than 0.00004% (four hundred thousandths of a percent, or one in every forty million) of the human population to sacrifice fewer people numerically than the golden throne claims. In other words, there would have to only be twenty five billion chaos worshipers throughout the entire galaxy. Now, do Chaos cults only sacrifice one percent of their total number per year? That seems highly unlikely to me. Are there only twenty five billion cultists throughout the galaxy? That also seems highly unlikely, considering how underhives tend to be teeming with mutated cultists and the number of daemon worlds in the Eye of Terror.
So, by both raw numbers and percents of the respective populations, Chaos cultists sacrifice far more people than the golden throne, and never for so noble a cause as saving quadrillions of lives, nor taken exclusively (or even commonly, considering the relative value of a rogue psyker to cultists) from a population that would otherwise die horrifically through their own inability to not explode in a gout of warpfire and daemons.
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Post by: FourCartridge
Brother Coa wrote:
Yeah, sure. And our parents and friends and we are slaves to have a job and work third of the day.
What do Imperial citizens do is WORK, it's essential thing to one's survival. And they are not forced to, they only work double shifts when they world face attack. And there are indeed "slaves" in Imperial industry, these are hard criminals who instead to be put in Penal Legions are put in Imperial war factories to produce munition and gear for the Guard.
The Cities of Death rulebook says otherwise; "Every Citizen lives a life of perpetual service, slaving away at back-breaking and mind-numbing tasks for twenty hours a day, before dragging their exhausted, labor wracked bodies beneath their benches to snatch a few hours of fitful sleep... For most, the cities of the Imperium are merciless and cruel places, where all hope is lost and only mindless subservience remains." In my view, the Imperium is actually more honest about it's slavery than Chaos. "The loyal slave learns to love the lash." As they think.
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Post by: Laodamia
FourCartridge wrote:Brother Coa wrote:
Yeah, sure. And our parents and friends and we are slaves to have a job and work third of the day.
What do Imperial citizens do is WORK, it's essential thing to one's survival. And they are not forced to, they only work double shifts when they world face attack. And there are indeed "slaves" in Imperial industry, these are hard criminals who instead to be put in Penal Legions are put in Imperial war factories to produce munition and gear for the Guard.
The Cities of Death rulebook says otherwise;
"Every Citizen lives a life of perpetual service, slaving away at back-breaking and mind-numbing tasks for twenty hours a day, before dragging their exhausted, labor wracked bodies beneath their benches to snatch a few hours of fitful sleep... For most, the cities of the Imperium are merciless and cruel places, where all hope is lost and only mindless subservience remains."
In my view, the Imperium is actually more honest about it's slavery than Chaos. "The loyal slave learns to love the lash." As they think.
But MANY other pieces of fluff (uktramarines novels, Titanicus and others) picture imperial citizens having a normal life, where they work hard, get a good pay and get back home where they watch their children grow peacefully. No lash, no cruelty and no "grimdrak future" in those stories, and I think they are more credible than the cities of death or the necromunda rulebook.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:KamikazeCanuck wrote:So the debate often comes down to well the IoM may destroy 10,000 souls a day but chaos enslaves 10,001 which is more evil. And I agree. However just because the IoM is less evil than Hell doesn't make it "good." A necessary evil is still be definition evil.
Except it doesn't even qualify as a necessary evil: it's a humane death for those psykers who would otherwise die horrifically becoming vessels for daemons (which would also be a horrific death for everyone around them), all in the service of facilitating interstellar travel, without which hundreds of trillions would starve, and there would be no troops or warships in place to repel invasion or put down chaos uprisings. And yet we are to believe that using less than one billionth of a percent of the population to keep the beacon that facilitates all travel throughout the galaxy running, thus saving the individuals sacrificed from horrific death by daemonic possession and saving the quadrillions (conservative estimate) of other Imperial citizens from horrible deaths by starvation, xenos incursions, and daemons summoned by insane Chaos cults is "evil"?
Yes, I think that might be the very definition of Necessary Evil.
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Post by: Slarg232
I would say that certain Chaos Space Marines are, or at least were, the good guys. What easily comes to my mind is the Alpha Legion; they don't dally with the powers of the warp, and they aren't heartless butchers, at least in any of the books I've read. They fell solely because they "knew" they had to for the good of the imperium in the long run.
So yes, I would imagine that some, but not all, Chaos Space Marines are the good guys.
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Sir Pseudonymous wrote:KamikazeCanuck wrote:So the debate often comes down to well the IoM may destroy 10,000 souls a day but chaos enslaves 10,001 which is more evil. And I agree. However just because the IoM is less evil than Hell doesn't make it "good." A necessary evil is still be definition evil.
Except it doesn't even qualify as a necessary evil: it's a humane death for those psykers who would otherwise die horrifically becoming vessels for daemons (which would also be a horrific death for everyone around them), all in the service of facilitating interstellar travel, without which hundreds of trillions would starve, and there would be no troops or warships in place to repel invasion or put down chaos uprisings. And yet we are to believe that using less than one billionth of a percent of the population to keep the beacon that facilitates all travel throughout the galaxy running, thus saving the individuals sacrificed from horrific death by daemonic possession and saving the quadrillions (conservative estimate) of other Imperial citizens from horrible deaths by starvation, xenos incursions, and daemons summoned by insane Chaos cults is "evil"?
Yes, I think that might be the very definition of Necessary Evil.
I contest the "evil" part. It is a kindness done to living bombs to preserve the lives of an incomprehensibly large number of people. It's kind of like putting down a single rabid dog, if rabies made daemons burst out of your head, and putting it down would cure cancer, the energy crisis, global warming, aids, and general geopolitical strife, to preserve the scale of what the golden throne does for what it takes.
Slarg232 wrote:I would say that certain Chaos Space Marines are, or at least were, the good guys. What easily comes to my mind is the Alpha Legion; they don't dally with the powers of the warp, and they aren't heartless butchers, at least in any of the books I've read. They fell solely because they "knew" they had to for the good of the imperium in the long run.
So yes, I would imagine that some, but not all, Chaos Space Marines are the good guys.
As I recall, the Alpha Legion was told by some random Xenos that if Horus won, humanity would be obliterated within decades, and Chaos would die with it, while if the Emperor won humanity would continue on for many millenia before finally dying out. So naturally they decided to wipe out humanity at the behest of Xenos, who were totally telling the truth, because it's not like "the language of the alien should be called 'lies'" or anything... 
The others were all either turned by greed or desperation, or through being deceived by the lies and twisted truths of the Daemon. Horus was shown the truth of what would happen if he rebelled and failed, leaving out the part about his rebellion being the ultimate cause of it all.
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Post by: crimsonfist832
The Imperium aren't all that good, e.g. the 1st Armageddon War all the soldiers who fought because they witnessed chaos at its fullest were forced to live out the rest of their lives amongst concentration camps. But, they still do more good to the galaxy than chaos. I don't think razing an entire system, obliterating everything just for a united galaxy is any good. The Imperium simply kill of the aliens or problem to regain the sector and populate it.
Imperium of Man=+1
Chaos Gods=-1264
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Post by: cadbren
Ghyslain Xaroit wrote:So, this guy considers oppression
This guy doesn't think period. Obviously spends too much time staring vacantly out into the mall. Chaos is essentially Hell and its followers are Devil worshippers. If anyone wants to pretend that these are the good guys go right ahead, but you're wrong.
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Post by: ZacktheChaosChild
In 40k, the Imperium seems evil by our current-day democratic standards. But with how many people in the Imperium there are and how they are barraged by anything and everything from everywhere....
You try to run a government better. I dare you.
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Post by: Pilau Rice
cadbren wrote:Ghyslain Xaroit wrote:So, this guy considers oppression
This guy doesn't think period. Obviously spends too much time staring vacantly out into the mall. Chaos is essentially Hell and its followers are Devil worshippers. If anyone wants to pretend that these are the good guys go right ahead, but you're wrong.
To a guy who lives on a world where rain goes upwards and is made of eyeballs and the sea of acid screams continuously, an Imperial world might seem like hell. It's about whats normal to you.
Not all Chaos Worshipers seem necessarily evil. You have cultures of the Laer, Nurth, Davin even Colchis that all appeared to live normal lives in Chaos Worship. All before the Imperium of Man came along and tried to make them believe in something else.
Chaos gets a bad reputation because of the way it's depicted in the novels and stuff, but there are cultures out there that get on just fine and aren't murdering and raping all the time.
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Post by: Smolo82
In the 40k universe no race is a good guy. They are all bad just have different degrees of it. Some could argue that for each race is evil could also say each race is good.
40k Universe doesn't have good guys, its just who is less evil.
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Post by: Laodamia
And I still think the IoM is definitely less evil than a good number of the W40K races, especially Chaos, who is the worst of all the W40K factions. Maybe even worse than DE.
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Post by: Melissia
Right, torturing and raping an entire world and its population in countless ways for eternity, many of which are unfathomable to the human mind, is "good". Automatically Appended Next Post: Pilau Rice wrote:Chaos gets a bad reputation because of the way it's depicted in the novels and stuff, but there are cultures out there that get on just fine and aren't murdering and raping all the time.
Yeah, and there's also people who think Hitler was right and that the Holocaust didn't happen.
Just because most worshippers of Chaos are ignorant of the true nature of Chaos doesn't mean Chaos itself isn't evil.
It is, and it revels in it.
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Post by: Pilau Rice
Melissia wrote:Right, torturing and raping an entire world and its population in countless ways for eternity, many of which are unfathomable to the human mind, is "good".
Err, no that clearly isn't good, unless you like that sort of thing ... Not all Chaos worshiping planets are like this though.
Melissia wrote:Just because most worshippers of Chaos are ignorant of the true nature of Chaos doesn't mean Chaos itself isn't evil.
It is, and it revels in it.
Yeah because the Laer and Nurthene all had such terrible lives until the Imperium of Man came along. You could say the same for the Istvaanians. Sure, we don't know much about what it was like, but the descriptions of the cities and inhabitants we do have don't show them as living lives of utter woe or torture. If Chaos is utter evil, why were these civilizations relatively normal.
I know the Chaos Gods are the big bad, that's why I play them on Tabletop. But there are no good and bad in 40k, that's what I am saying and that's my stance. They are all as bad as each other just with different intentions and methods. The only exceptions might be the Orks and the Tyranids.
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Post by: 4M2A
Right, torturing and raping an entire world and its population in countless ways for eternity, many of which are unfathomable to the human mind, is "good
It's bad to you. But what if that's normal to a chaos cultist. What makes your vision of good better than his? His morals will be entirely different to you, there is nothing apart from your opinion saying that your view is better than his.
Anything you can say that makes that view look bad he can say something that from the perspective of a chaos cultist will make your ideas look bad. Chaos is bad from our perspective but our morals aren't neccessarily right.
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Post by: Melissia
Pilau Rice wrote:Melissia wrote:Right, torturing and raping an entire world and its population in countless ways for eternity, many of which are unfathomable to the human mind, is "good".
Err, no that clearly isn't good, unless you like that sort of thing ... Not all Chaos worshiping planets are like this though.
That's because they are ignorant to the truth of Chaos. The overwhelming majority of Chaos worshippers, even Chaos Marines, know very little about Chaos, and usually what they do know is a lie.
That planet is one enveloped in Chaos, it is a Daemonworld. In the end, Chaos collectively wants every world to become a Daemonworld.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
4M2A wrote:Right, torturing and raping an entire world and its population in countless ways for eternity, many of which are unfathomable to the human mind, is "good
It's bad to you. But what if that's normal to a chaos cultist.
Moral relativism is, and always has been, bs.
On daemonworlds, there are no chaos worshippers. There's only daemons and victims.
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Post by: Pilau Rice
Melissia wrote:
That's because they are ignorant to the truth of Chaos. The overwhelming majority of Chaos worshippers, even Chaos Marines, know very little about Chaos, and usually what they do know is a lie.
That planet is one enveloped in Chaos, it is a Daemonworld. In the end, Chaos collectively wants every world to become a Daemonworld.
But then if Chaos is evil why are their followers leading normal lives and not being smited and having their flesh seared off with hot spoons? I get what you are saying but I think you're wrong. I don't deny that Chaos wants Daemonworlds but if you are doing your job of worshiping, appeasing and supplicating the Chaos Gods you're doing ok in their book.
Melissia wrote:On daemonworlds, there are no chaos worshippers. There's only daemons and victims.
In the Novel Daemonworld you have Chaos Worshipers, wait for it ... worshiping Chaos. Same as the Dark Creed series. Blimey, the Whole of the Word Bearers are Chaos Worshipers and they, strangely enough, also live on Daemonworlds.
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Post by: biccat
There's a lot of moral relativism being thrown around in here. The IoM isn't good because Chaos is evil, nor is Chaos good because the IoM is evil.
Both Chaos and the IoM are ruled by murderous tortuing thugs who will kill an entire planet's worth of civilians in order to acquire more power. They are both evil, but maybe the Imperium is less evil because they torture-kill rather than rape-torture-kill.
This is like trying to decide if the Nazis or Soviets were the 'good guys' in Eastern Europe. Both killed millions, but the Nazis are more universaslly recognized as evil because the anti-Nazi propaganda is stronger/more widespread than anti-Soviet propaganda.
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Post by: davij
Chaos aren't good...or evil. It's just raw human emotion, the people sacrifcing/killing/ whatever in the name of the gods are human, so by definition are all humans evil?
Oh and pot kettle black for Imperials, do you recall something like "The Immortal god-Emperor...to whom a million souls are sacrificed every day".
You can define chaos by defining humanity as a species
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
Moral relativism only breaks down when you introduce the essential nature of Chaos. It taints, warps, and obliterates everything it touches, and is populated by insane, often mindless, lesser beings. Incoherent insanity is not a moral system, and its pointlessly detrimental effect cannot be rationally debated as such. Automatically Appended Next Post: biccat wrote:This is like trying to decide if the Nazis or Soviets were the 'good guys' in Eastern Europe. Both killed millions, but the Nazis are more universaslly recognized as evil because the anti-Nazi propaganda is stronger/more widespread than anti-Soviet propaganda.
It is more like trying to decide if the Axis powers or the Allies were the "good guys." That's actually a pretty good comparison: the Allies carpet bombed civilian populations, there were doubtlessly a number of smaller abuses by their soldiers inflicted upon the local peoples, and ultimately ended it all through the use of one of the most effective terror weapons ever created, obliterating tens of thousands in the blink of an eye. The Axis powers did all that too (except for the ending things with a superweapon), only in a more pointlessly insane way, with a whole lot more needless, counterproductive brutality to boot, all done for the most insane and frivolous of reasons. Both sides did things any rational person in this day and age would see as horrific and inexcusable, the Axis powers just did more of it, and all for much more insane reasons.
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Post by: Melissia
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Moral relativism only breaks down when you introduce the essential nature of Chaos.
I'm fairly certain that Moral Relativism breaks down far more often than that. As an ethical system is is one of the most flawed and useless systems.
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Post by: davij
Insane to you, they probabily made perfect sense to hitler and other Nazi's.
I can't understand why lots of people do things, but it probably makes perfect sense to them.
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Post by: 4M2A
Moral relativism is, and always has been, bs.
No, it isn't. You may be confident in your beliefs but give me solid, unbiased proof that isn't based on opinions and I'll believe you.
If we were to be taken over by a culture that had directly opposite morals to us our society would change. Would it be fair for them to punish people who followed the old society's rules, and praise those who fought against it? From our perspective we followed the rules and now we are being punished, because we were bought up in a different society. However we have done the same thing to others. Does that mean our culture is right above all others? Seems a bit arrogant to thing that doesn't it?
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Post by: Melissia
4M2A wrote:Moral relativism is, and always has been, bs.
No, it isn't. You may be confident in your beliefs but give me solid, unbiased proof that isn't based on opinions and I'll believe you.
Others have already done far better jobs explaining the many critical flaws of moral relativism than I would. Moral relativism is one of the most despised positions in the ethical field of study, for good reason. It is a weak and pathetic position, and is nothing more than a disguise for moral nihilism.
Here's a quick link to one of said explanations of the flaws of moral relativism:
http://westtnliving.wordpress.com/2008/07/25/allowing-ones-self-the-luxury-of-moral-relativism-in-life-is-unhealthy-and-ultimately-self-destructive/
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Post by: ImperialTard
I'm on the third Horus Heresy novel, and.. I do think that Horus is a sympathetic character (and pretty sure he was meant to be). Anyone else think so? Does that count for something as far as morality goes for chaos?
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Post by: 4M2A
That article is stupid. Basically says "It isn't nice that there is no good and bad therefore good and bad exists".
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
+1 to moral relativism being dumb.
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Post by: Melissia
4M2A wrote:That article is stupid. Basically says "It isn't nice that there is no good and bad therefore good and bad exists".
No, the article says the position is weak, stupid, and useless, three things which are true about moral relativism. It's nothing more than a thin disguise for nihilism.
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Post by: biccat
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:It is more like trying to decide if the Axis powers or the Allies were the "good guys." That's actually a pretty good comparison: the Allies carpet bombed civilian populations, there were doubtlessly a number of smaller abuses by their soldiers inflicted upon the local peoples, and ultimately ended it all through the use of one of the most effective terror weapons ever created, obliterating tens of thousands in the blink of an eye. The Axis powers did all that too (except for the ending things with a superweapon), only in a more pointlessly insane way, with a whole lot more needless, counterproductive brutality to boot, all done for the most insane and frivolous of reasons. Both sides did things any rational person in this day and age would see as horrific and inexcusable, the Axis powers just did more of it, and all for much more insane reasons.
I don't think it warrants a huge discussion, but I think the Soviet/Nazi comparison is better for the following:
- Both were indiscriminate mass murdering regimes.
- Both were militant dictatorships
- Both believed that the world was better under their control
- Overarching military-based economy
- Willingness to sacrifice millions towards their own ends.
The western axis powers just didn't have the same "conquor the world" mindset that existed in both the USSR and Germany, and is prevalent throughout the 40k universe. Finally, I'm not sure how individual soldiers' abuses or superweapons play into anything. One is prevalent regardless of the nation and the other is nonexistent in 40k (at least, no superweapon exists that can be so effective in 40k).
So I think the Nazi/Soviet comparison is the best, because while they're totally opposed to one another, they're two sides of the same coin - dictatorships.
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
Melissia wrote:4M2A wrote:Moral relativism is, and always has been, bs.
No, it isn't. You may be confident in your beliefs but give me solid, unbiased proof that isn't based on opinions and I'll believe you.
Others have already done far better jobs explaining the many critical flaws of moral relativism than I would. Moral relativism is one of the most despised positions in the ethical field of study, for good reason. It is a weak and pathetic position, and is nothing more than a disguise for moral nihilism.
Here's a quick link to one of said explanations of the flaws of moral relativism:
http://westtnliving.wordpress.com/2008/07/25/allowing-ones-self-the-luxury-of-moral-relativism-in-life-is-unhealthy-and-ultimately-self-destructive/
The problem is Moral Relativism is ultimately right. What is moral and acceptable varies depending on who you are. It doesn't, however, function as a practical worldview. One must draw lines somewhere, even if they are not truly "right", simply because one cannot function without a metric of what is to be desired and what is to be avoided.
The problem here is that ignoring the well-being of certain others in favor of your own advancement (and/or entertainment) is a perfectly functional system, when not taken to Stupid Evil levels and combined with gibbering insanity. We see this accepted time and again throughout human history, in almost every society. A good 40K example of this would be DE: their lives revolve around sadistic hedonism, and their society is a brutal, social-darwinist meritocracy. And it works, having taken them from scattered refugees with nothing to the largest combat trained sapient (to exclude Orks, Tyranids, and Necrons) force in the galaxy, considering that every last one of them is to some extent or another trained as a scheming fighter and Commoragh dwarfs the largest of Imperial Hives, which house hundreds of billions to trillions of people (in comparison, the Imperial Guard apparently numbers in the low trillions, and Space Marines of course number less a million at any given time (odd when you think about it: they are probably more Space Marine models than there are Space Marines in the fluff...), while Craftworlders number much less in all, and have significant non-military populations). Chaos, however, falls into the "taken to Stupid Evil levels and combined with gibbering insanity" category.
ImperialTard wrote:I'm on the third Horus Heresy novel, and.. I do think that Horus is a sympathetic character (and pretty sure he was meant to be). Anyone else think so? Does that count for something as far as morality goes for chaos?
Of course Horus is sympathetic. The whole point is that he was tricked by the ruinous powers into creating the very thing he tried to prevent, and was eventually corrupted by their taint.
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Post by: mrsmith
since it seems that the only way to destroy chaos would be to destory the Imperium, ultimately siding with Chaos so it may destroy itself would be the right thing to do.
or at least thats how i read the fluff.
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
biccat wrote:Sir Pseudonymous wrote:It is more like trying to decide if the Axis powers or the Allies were the "good guys." That's actually a pretty good comparison: the Allies carpet bombed civilian populations, there were doubtlessly a number of smaller abuses by their soldiers inflicted upon the local peoples, and ultimately ended it all through the use of one of the most effective terror weapons ever created, obliterating tens of thousands in the blink of an eye. The Axis powers did all that too (except for the ending things with a superweapon), only in a more pointlessly insane way, with a whole lot more needless, counterproductive brutality to boot, all done for the most insane and frivolous of reasons. Both sides did things any rational person in this day and age would see as horrific and inexcusable, the Axis powers just did more of it, and all for much more insane reasons.
I don't think it warrants a huge discussion, but I think the Soviet/Nazi comparison is better for the following:
- Both were indiscriminate mass murdering regimes.
- Both were militant dictatorships
- Both believed that the world was better under their control
- Overarching military-based economy
- Willingness to sacrifice millions towards their own ends.
The western axis powers just didn't have the same "conquor the world" mindset that existed in both the USSR and Germany, and is prevalent throughout the 40k universe. Finally, I'm not sure how individual soldiers' abuses or superweapons play into anything. One is prevalent regardless of the nation and the other is nonexistent in 40k (at least, no superweapon exists that can be so effective in 40k).
So I think the Nazi/Soviet comparison is the best, because while they're totally opposed to one another, they're two sides of the same coin - dictatorships.
But it is better for preserving the scale of the comparison. You're just taking two things which resemble the Imperium, and trying to imply that one of them is Chaos and the other is the Imperium. While the Imperium may end up looking not unlike the Soviets or Nazis in the end, Chaos is to the Imperium what the Axis powers were to the Allies. The Allies were willing to slaughter civilians by the tens of thousands to further their objectives. The Axis powers (possibly excluding Italy to an extent, the worst acts were under the Nazis and Japanese, specifically) went out of their way to butcher civilians just because they felt like it, wasting massive amounts of resources to do so. Scaled up to 40K levels, in a galaxy with quadrillions of humans, and existential threats coming from every direction, what the Imperium does is less brutal than what the Allies did (as in, hurts a smaller percentage of the population, to accomplish more), while what Chaos does is every bit as self-defeating, insane, and utterly pointless as what the Axis did. Automatically Appended Next Post: mrsmith wrote:since it seems that the only way to destroy chaos would be to destory the Imperium, ultimately siding with Chaos so it may destroy itself would be the right thing to do.
or at least thats how i read the fluff.
Destroying all life, everywhere, would theoretically end Chaos. Chaos far predates humanity, and its gods don't care the slightest for what goes within this Galaxy, though lesser daemons might. Even wiping out all life in the Milky Way probably wouldn't end Chaos, as it would also be fed by the life in other galaxies. Painting it as "it's all humanity's fault for existing" is just MOAR GRIMDARKS someone threw in for some reason or another.
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Post by: Melissia
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The problem is Moral Relativism is ultimately right.
Pretty much the entire philosophical field of study known as Ethics disagrees.
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
Melissia wrote:Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The problem is Moral Relativism is ultimately right.
Pretty much the entire philosophical field of study known as Ethics disagrees.
They're as a much a joke as the rest of formal philosophy is. No one has the authority of Universal Arbiter of Morality; there is no universal law of right and wrong. Every single moral judgment comes down to the personal views of the one making it. Yes, Moral Relativism is nihilistic. It is also the closest thing to objective truth there is when talking about ethics.
But, day to day life doesn't require objective truth. Morality may be subjective, but as I said, you must draw lines somewhere to have a functioning society. So society collectively sets its own metric, and tries to instill and enforce this metric amongst both its existing and new members, and the world keeps on turning completely oblivious to it all.
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Post by: Laodamia
davij wrote:Insane to you, they probabily made perfect sense to hitler and other Nazi's.
I can't understand why lots of people do things, but it probably makes perfect sense to them.
Fair enough for the "nazi morality" example, but it does not apply to the situation of (most) chaos worshippers and daemons. They definitely do evil things because even them would agree that their actions are only driven by madness and an insane desire to inflict pain. They don't think they are doing something right, they think they are doing something evil, selfish and unjustified, and that's why they are doing it.
If a daemon thought killing imperials might be bettering the galaxy, he would immediately stop doing it, because daemons find much relish in doing evil! It makes them feel powerful and beyond the reach of humanity's "justice".
You cannot even apply moral relativism to Chaotic reasoning.
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Post by: mrsmith
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:mrsmith wrote:since it seems that the only way to destroy chaos would be to destory the Imperium, ultimately siding with Chaos so it may destroy itself would be the right thing to do.
or at least thats how i read the fluff.
Destroying all life, everywhere, would theoretically end Chaos. Chaos far predates humanity, and its gods don't care the slightest for what goes within this Galaxy, though lesser daemons might. Even wiping out all life in the Milky Way probably wouldn't end Chaos, as it would also be fed by the life in other galaxies. Painting it as "it's all humanity's fault for existing" is just MOAR GRIMDARKS someone threw in for some reason or another.
many races, maybe even most, don't have a presence in the warp though, so those could thrive. Plus Humans have an unusually high affect on the warp for some reason.
how do the gods not care? it seems the only way they can grow in power is to cause as much disorder as they can in the real world.
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Post by: biccat
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:But it is better for preserving the scale of the comparison.
But it isn't scale we're talking about, it is morality of the relative positions.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:You're just taking two things which resemble the Imperium, and trying to imply that one of them is Chaos and the other is the Imperium.
I'm not sure why you see this as wrong. I'm making an analogy between two opposing yet morally dubious governments to illustrate that neither is "good".
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:While the Imperium may end up looking not unlike the Soviets or Nazis in the end, Chaos is to the Imperium what the Axis powers were to the Allies.
But they aren't. The Allies were fighting to restore self-government to the invaded nations while the Axis were trying to expand their hold. It is in Eastern Europe where we see two expansionist powers vying for domination.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The Allies were willing to slaughter civilians by the tens of thousands to further their objectives.
No, they were willing to 'slaughter civilians' to defeat an enemy. Again, it is in Eastern Europe where we see domestic murder, not in Western Europe. It was the USSR who used mass infantry WWI tactics, the Western powers used military technology where possible to avoid deaths. Further, when the Western powers conquered a city, they didn't purge it of dissidents and institute a puppet government, that was the Eastern ally.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The Axis powers (possibly excluding Italy to an extent, the worst acts were under the Nazis and Japanese, specifically) went out of their way to butcher civilians just because they felt like it, wasting massive amounts of resources to do so.
But the Western allies didn't do that to their own people, nor did they do it to captured territories. You have to look to the Eastern front to see that happening. There were no great purges in the US or UK, but there certainly were in the USSR.
And the purges by the Soviets did serve a purpose, eliminate opposition and control the populasce - exactly as in the Imperium.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Scaled up to 40K levels, in a galaxy with quadrillions of humans, and existential threats coming from every direction, what the Imperium does is less brutal than what the Allies did (as in, hurts a smaller percentage of the population, to accomplish more), while what Chaos does is every bit as self-defeating, insane, and utterly pointless as what the Axis did.
I draw a line between casualties of war and self-imposed purging, and I think most people would as well. The deaths caused by attacks on population centers were done for the purpose of defeating an enemy, in the Imperium it is done for purposes of control (and blood sacrifice to a dead god).
You may think I'm drawing a clear moral line between democracy and the tyranny of socialism, and that's because I am. People in the Soviet Union and IoM are/were no more free than those in Nazi Germany or the Chaos Worlds. All live(d) under evil.
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Post by: 4M2A
Completely agree with you Sir Pseudonymous. Moral Relativism makes works because no one has any right to claim they are any more right than any one else.
Yes it's a negative way to look at life
Yes it's destructive to society to live that way
And While I completely agree with it I don't think society should be ruled by it.
Just because it isn't useful doesn't make it wrong.
As you already said sometimse we don't need what is correct. For society to function we need to find boundaries that are accepted by the majority.
I follow my own morals and the law as well as moral relativism, I just know that my views are no more right than any others.
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Post by: Melissia
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Melissia wrote:Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The problem is Moral Relativism is ultimately right.
Pretty much the entire philosophical field of study known as Ethics disagrees.
They're as a much a joke as the rest of formal philosophy is.
Without philosophy we would not have had science.
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Post by: 4M2A
So.
Lots of things which we have now proved pointless led to important discoveries.
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Post by: Melissia
4M2A wrote:So.
Lots of things which we have now proved pointless led to important discoveries.
Philosophy also led to democracy (and other important concepts such as the social contract), economics, sociology, psychology, and plenty of other things which are beneficial to mankind.
Philosophy is simply the rational investigations of questions about our world, our existence, knowledge, ethics... in essence, science is a form of philosophy focused on the physical. But we are not purely physical creatures, so the non-physical studies have an important purpose.
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Post by: 4M2A
Philosphy about the world around us is of use.
Almost all of the philophy about morals is speculation and biased opinions. I don't how anything can been seen a stupid in an area that is mainly speculation.
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Post by: Melissia
4M2A wrote:Almost all of the philophy about morals is speculation and biased opinions.
So I take it you haven't actually studied any of it?
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Post by: 4M2A
At a low level I have. I also spend large amounts of my time discussing it with friends who are taking it further. While i'm not an expert philosphy is one of my bigger interests.
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Post by: davij
Laodamia wrote:davij wrote:Insane to you, they probabily made perfect sense to hitler and other Nazi's.
I can't understand why lots of people do things, but it probably makes perfect sense to them.
Fair enough for the "nazi morality" example, but it does not apply to the situation of (most) chaos worshippers and daemons. They definitely do evil things because even them would agree that their actions are only driven by madness and an insane desire to inflict pain. They don't think they are doing something right, they think they are doing something evil, selfish and unjustified, and that's why they are doing it.
If a daemon thought killing imperials might be bettering the galaxy, he would immediately stop doing it, because daemons find much relish in doing evil! It makes them feel powerful and beyond the reach of humanity's "justice".
You cannot even apply moral relativism to Chaotic reasoning.
Not neccessarily, are there not seek to plenty of "corrupted" inquisitors that try to use chaos for the greater good of man? Are there not thousands of traitor marines that think worshipping the chaos gods is the one true way to save humanity? Are there not untold millions of out cast mutants that have turned to the chaos gods as an uncaring emporer orders their annihiliation?
Of course, there are the just as many types who use chaos for their own personal gain.
As to Daemons, well, we are but food to them- to be consumed and and to entertain, we may as well be headlice. You are applying human notions to daemons, which is like comparing human behaviour to that of sharks. If a shark eats a man does that make the shark evil?
M
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Post by: Melissia
davij wrote:Not neccessarily, are there not seek to plenty of "corrupted" inquisitors that try to use chaos for the greater good of man
Define "plenty". Radicals are definitely the minority, a very small one.
Mind you, this is balanced out by a bit of Nietzschian reasoning-- those few that do turn radical tend to be the oldest and most connected Inquisitors. "Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
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Post by: Laodamia
davij wrote:
As to Daemons, well, we are but food to them- to be consumed and and to entertain, we may as well be headlice. You are applying human notions to daemons, which is like comparing human behaviour to that of sharks. If a shark eats a man does that make the shark evil?
But sharks are not created by your worst fears into another hellish dimension. Nor is their sole purpose in life to experiment 9487 different manners to kill you by inflicting as much pain as possible.
If a shark attacks you, he will do so because it is hungry and that it needs to eat you to survive. If it manages to kill you, it will do so ruthlessly and efficiently, without waisting any time in torturing you.
A daemon will torture you to death and laugh at your face while you agonize.
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Post by: Melissia
Right, Daemons aren't animals. They're manifestations of human emotions, and primarily the negative ones that are so strong in this galaxy wherein there is only war.
As a side thought, the Emperor is/was 40k's Ubermensch.
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
4M2A wrote:Completely agree with you Sir Pseudonymous. Moral Relativism makes works because no one has any right to claim they are any more right than any one else.
Yes it's a negative way to look at life
Yes it's destructive to society to live that way
And While I completely agree with it I don't think society should be ruled by it.
Just because it isn't useful doesn't make it wrong.
As you already said sometimse we don't need what is correct. For society to function we need to find boundaries that are accepted by the majority.
I follow my own morals and the law as well as moral relativism, I just know that my views are no more right than any others.
What I'm saying is that Moral Relativism is, for all intents and purposes, the closest thing to objective truth we have when it comes to ethics. It is, however, completely useless as a system, because it's not a system. Moral Relativism is a reminder that there is no natural authority standing behind any moral system. Morality is a social construct, which depends on a social contract to mean anything. If you violate that contract, nothing happens beyond what may be enforced by other individuals. Lightning doesn't strike you down for murder, or theft, or canceling Firefly.
Melissia wrote:4M2A wrote:So.
Lots of things which we have now proved pointless led to important discoveries.
Philosophy also led to democracy (and other important concepts such as the social contract), economics, sociology, psychology, and plenty of other things which are beneficial to mankind.
Philosophy is simply the rational investigations of questions about our world, our existence, knowledge, ethics... in essence, science is a form of philosophy focused on the physical. But we are not purely physical creatures, so the non-physical studies have an important purpose.
We're long since past the point where general philosophy was important. Now it's just masturbatory armchair musing crossed with history. It is science without the empiricism.
Melissia wrote:davij wrote:Not neccessarily, are there not seek to plenty of "corrupted" inquisitors that try to use chaos for the greater good of man
Define "plenty". Radicals are definitely the minority, a very small one.
Mind you, this is balanced out by a bit of Nietzschian reasoning-- those few that do turn radical tend to be the oldest and most connected Inquisitors. "Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
That's not Nietzschian reasoning, that's just referencing a famous, ominous Nietzsche quote...
We also don't know how common radical inquisitors are. We can safely assume that the extreme radicals, the sort that use daemonhosts or smuggle psykers and xenos artifacts to further a hunt for the location of a dead eldar craftworld that's moving like a space hulk, are few and far between, but there appears to be no shortage of the sort willing to use dubious methods to accomplish their goals, like allowing lesser heretics to go unmolested in the hopes that they may lead to heretics that are actually dangerous, rather than just stupid (Amberly Vail even takes the time to mock the so-called "heretics" who base their philosophy on contemporary popular culture villains as not being worth the time of even the local arbites in the footnotes (or perhaps in character in the story as a whole, I can't recall which), if I recall correctly), or dealing with the less unstable xenos, like Craftworld Seers.
Laodamia wrote:davij wrote:
As to Daemons, well, we are but food to them- to be consumed and and to entertain, we may as well be headlice. You are applying human notions to daemons, which is like comparing human behaviour to that of sharks. If a shark eats a man does that make the shark evil?
But sharks are not created by your worst fears into another hellish dimension. Nor is their sole purpose in life to experiment 9487 different manners to kill you by inflicting as much pain as possible.
If a shark attacks you, he will do so because it is hungry and that it needs to eat you to survive. If it manages to kill you, it will do so ruthlessly and efficiently, without waisting any time in torturing you.
A daemon will torture you to death and laugh at your face while you agonize.
Minor correction: the shark is even more innocent than that. If it attacks you, it's because it thought you were a seal, being an effectively mindless fish and all; most sharks ostensibly dislike humans as a food source, and frequently just swim away after realizing their mistake (of course, by that point it's probably too late for you, since it only realizes its mistake after taking a bite and discovering that you don't taste like a seal).
37036
Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
mrsmith wrote:Sir Pseudonymous wrote:mrsmith wrote:since it seems that the only way to destroy chaos would be to destory the Imperium, ultimately siding with Chaos so it may destroy itself would be the right thing to do.
or at least thats how i read the fluff.
Destroying all life, everywhere, would theoretically end Chaos. Chaos far predates humanity, and its gods don't care the slightest for what goes within this Galaxy, though lesser daemons might. Even wiping out all life in the Milky Way probably wouldn't end Chaos, as it would also be fed by the life in other galaxies. Painting it as "it's all humanity's fault for existing" is just MOAR GRIMDARKS someone threw in for some reason or another.
many races, maybe even most, don't have a presence in the warp though, so those could thrive. Plus Humans have an unusually high affect on the warp for some reason. how do the gods not care? it seems the only way they can grow in power is to cause as much disorder as they can in the real world.
The Tau are the only soulless race we know of, aside from the robot necrons and the mindless tyranid swarms. The gods are above it all. There is nothing worthy of their interest because of the sheer scale of things. It is their followers, including the daemons, who meddle in mortal affairs to try to be outrageous enough to draw the attention of their patron god. biccat wrote:Sir Pseudonymous wrote:But it is better for preserving the scale of the comparison.
But it isn't scale we're talking about, it is morality of the relative positions. Sir Pseudonymous wrote:You're just taking two things which resemble the Imperium, and trying to imply that one of them is Chaos and the other is the Imperium.
I'm not sure why you see this as wrong. I'm making an analogy between two opposing yet morally dubious governments to illustrate that neither is "good".
Which has everything to do with the scale at hand. "A and B are two sides of the same coin" does not follow from "X and Y were both bad, and both superficially resemble A". If we are to compare two things, for the purposes of providing a more tangible example of A and B, then the two things should match each other in scale roughly relative to the relation between A and B. Sir Pseudonymous wrote:While the Imperium may end up looking not unlike the Soviets or Nazis in the end, Chaos is to the Imperium what the Axis powers were to the Allies.
But they aren't. The Allies were fighting to restore self-government to the invaded nations while the Axis were trying to expand their hold. It is in Eastern Europe where we see two expansionist powers vying for domination. Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The Allies were willing to slaughter civilians by the tens of thousands to further their objectives.
No, they were willing to 'slaughter civilians' to defeat an enemy. Again, it is in Eastern Europe where we see domestic murder, not in Western Europe. It was the USSR who used mass infantry WWI tactics, the Western powers used military technology where possible to avoid deaths. Further, when the Western powers conquered a city, they didn't purge it of dissidents and institute a puppet government, that was the Eastern ally.
The supposed philosophical goals of the two sides are completely irrelevant when one wants to look at their actions. The Allies carpet bombed civilian populations with incendiaries, and ultimately with one of the most horrifying terror weapons ever created. This killed civilians by the tens of thousands. This served their strategic purposes, so they did it despite its brutality. This is worse in the context and scale of that conflict than the Imperium torching worlds given over to chaos, genestealers, or tyranids, and you could doubtlessly find any number of far greater sacrifices (in the scale of things) made than the golden throne requires. The Axis powers expended massive amounts of resources rounding up and slaughtering civilians for entirely insane reasons, which is kind of equivalent in spirit to Chaos cultists sacrificing themselves to summon daemons to kill everyone, only less insane (that's right, Chaos cultists make Nazis look sane). Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Scaled up to 40K levels, in a galaxy with quadrillions of humans, and existential threats coming from every direction, what the Imperium does is less brutal than what the Allies did (as in, hurts a smaller percentage of the population, to accomplish more), while what Chaos does is every bit as self-defeating, insane, and utterly pointless as what the Axis did.
I draw a line between casualties of war and self-imposed purging, and I think most people would as well. The deaths caused by attacks on population centers were done for the purpose of defeating an enemy, in the Imperium it is done for purposes of control (and blood sacrifice to a dead god).
A world given over to Chaos, or infested with genestealer cults beyond what may be excised, or lost to the Tyranids is no longer "their own people". A revolt on an agriworld means billions starve to death on a hiveworld. As for the golden throne: how many industrial accidents do you suppose there were in American industry during WWII? I assure you that such is a percent of the population of Earth many millions of times in excess of the percentage of the human population claimed by the golden throne. And, to reiterate an earlier point, if Chaos cultists sacrificed only one percent of their population per year, they would have to number less than twenty five billion to claim fewer lives numerically than the golden throne does, out of a total human population in the quadrillions at the very least, to ignore the crucial difference that the golden throne keeps the Emperor able to operate the Astronomicon, without which many hundreds of trillions would starve to death, if they weren't devoured or slaughtered by xenos incursions and Chaos worshipers first, while Chaos cultists sacrifice to summon insane daemons to kill everyone. You may think I'm drawing a clear moral line between democracy and the tyranny of socialism, and that's because I am. People in the Soviet Union and IoM are/were no more free than those in Nazi Germany or the Chaos Worlds. All live(d) under evil.
 Edit: isn't the forum software supposed to append a double post to the first one?
31733
Post by: Brother Coa
Sir Pseudonymous why are you defending Chaos?
Imperium is evil in some ways, but Chaos is definitely evil.
I can't see what is this debate about?
Why defend evil?
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Post by: Pilau Rice
Brother Coa wrote:Sir Pseudonymous why are you defending Chaos?
Imperium is evil in some ways, but Chaos is definitely evil.
I can't see what is this debate about?
Why defend evil?
Because it's a fictional universe where good and bad isn't as clear cut
31733
Post by: Brother Coa
Pilau Rice wrote:Brother Coa wrote:Sir Pseudonymous why are you defending Chaos?
Imperium is evil in some ways, but Chaos is definitely evil.
I can't see what is this debate about?
Why defend evil?
Because it's a fictional universe where good and bad isn't as clear cut
I see. Well in that case the most evil thing in 40k are the Necrons. No free will, no soul, just command of their gods to destroy every living thing in the galaxy. Including plants and even microbes. Now what is good about them?
38186
Post by: The Zoat
Yup.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
Brother Coa wrote:Pilau Rice wrote:Brother Coa wrote:Sir Pseudonymous why are you defending Chaos?
Imperium is evil in some ways, but Chaos is definitely evil.
I can't see what is this debate about?
Why defend evil?
Because it's a fictional universe where good and bad isn't as clear cut
I see. Well in that case the most evil thing in 40k are the Necrons. No free will, no soul, just command of their gods to destroy every living thing in the galaxy. Including plants and even microbes. Now what is good about them?
Are you arguing that the C'tan are evil? Or the Necrons themselves?
29408
Post by: Melissia
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:We also don't know how common radical inquisitors are.
One person's radical is the next person's puritan, but generally speaking puritans outnumber the radicals, according to Dark Heresy. I say this because radicalism is punishable, and if the majority of Inquisitors were Radical that wouldn't be the case.
37036
Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
Brother Coa wrote:Sir Pseudonymous why are you defending Chaos?
Imperium is evil in some ways, but Chaos is definitely evil.
I can't see what is this debate about?
Why defend evil?
What? My posts have revolved entirely around attacking arguments that Chaos isn't worse than the Imperium. The only thing I defended was the idea of Moral Relativism, while also denouncing it as unusable as a system despite its truth, and denouncing Chaos as being beyond redemption through it. Chaos is not a moral system: it's a state of gibbering, suicidal insanity, and thus it cannot be argued that Moral Relativism applies to it.
29408
Post by: Melissia
Emperors Faithful wrote:Brother Coa wrote:Pilau Rice wrote:Brother Coa wrote:Sir Pseudonymous why are you defending Chaos?
Imperium is evil in some ways, but Chaos is definitely evil.
I can't see what is this debate about?
Why defend evil?
Because it's a fictional universe where good and bad isn't as clear cut
I see. Well in that case the most evil thing in 40k are the Necrons. No free will, no soul, just command of their gods to destroy every living thing in the galaxy. Including plants and even microbes. Now what is good about them?
Are you arguing that the C'tan are evil? Or the Necrons themselves?
The C'tan are gods who don't care about their worshippers . Most would probably call them evil. They might be defended as "such a concept doesn't apply to them" but somehow I feel that is a bit of a cop-out.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
It is a cop out. One that's been used for the better part of 3000 years.
However the Necrons themselves can be pretty mindless depending on how many times they've been put back together. Sooner or later they'd have the morality of a servitor.
29408
Post by: Melissia
Yes, it is quite a popular cop-out
39004
Post by: biccat
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Which has everything to do with the scale at hand. "A and B are two sides of the same coin" does not follow from "X and Y were both bad, and both superficially resemble A". If we are to compare two things, for the purposes of providing a more tangible example of A and B, then the two things should match each other in scale roughly relative to the relation between A and B.
Again, I have no idea what you're talking about. The scale of the conflict has absolutely nothing to do with the analogy.
A is like X. B is like Y. Therefore, A is to B as X is to Y.
In my example, I describe the relationship between the Imperium and Chaos and Soviets and Nazis. Both Soviets and Nazis have more in common with the IoM or Chaos than either IoM or Chaos has with the Allies as a whole. Scale is completely irrelevant.
However, I invite you to please explain your rationale further if I've misconstrued something.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The supposed philosophical goals of the two sides are completely irrelevant when one wants to look at their actions. The Allies carpet bombed civilian populations with incendiaries, and ultimately with one of the most horrifying terror weapons ever created. This killed civilians by the tens of thousands. This served their strategic purposes, so they did it despite its brutality. This is worse in the context and scale of that conflict than the Imperium torching worlds given over to chaos, genestealers, or tyranids, and you could doubtlessly find any number of far greater sacrifices (in the scale of things) made than the golden throne requires. The Axis powers expended massive amounts of resources rounding up and slaughtering civilians for entirely insane reasons, which is kind of equivalent in spirit to Chaos cultists sacrificing themselves to summon daemons to kill everyone, only less insane (that's right, Chaos cultists make Nazis look sane).
Philosophical goals are very relevent, because it's how we give context to actions, and understand why those actions were done. Killing someone in self defense is moral, while killing someone in cold blood is immoral. The results are the same, but the motivations are very different, which leads to a different moral conclusion.
You cannot distant actions from morality to argue that the actions are morally equivalent. Either morality matters (and we can label evil) or it doesn't (and Chaos is no worse than the IoM).
Finally, the key difference between the IoM and the Allied bombing of cities is that the IoM has options not available during WWII. The Allies took out cities because that was the only way to destroy industrial production that benefitted the enemy. Today, we use precision guided missiles. Further, the Allies were fighting an enemy that responded to such tactics. The IoM not only has less violent means, they are fighting an enemy immune to genocide (and benefits from it).
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:A world given over to Chaos, or infested with genestealer cults beyond what may be excised, or lost to the Tyranids is no longer "their own people". A revolt on an agriworld means billions starve to death on a hiveworld. As for the golden throne: how many industrial accidents do you suppose there were in American industry during WWII? I assure you that such is a percent of the population of Earth many millions of times in excess of the percentage of the human population claimed by the golden throne. And, to reiterate an earlier point, if Chaos cultists sacrificed only one percent of their population per year, they would have to number less than twenty five billion to claim fewer lives numerically than the golden throne does, out of a total human population in the quadrillions at the very least, to ignore the crucial difference that the golden throne keeps the Emperor able to operate the Astronomicon, without which many hundreds of trillions would starve to death, if they weren't devoured or slaughtered by xenos incursions and Chaos worshipers first, while Chaos cultists sacrifice to summon insane daemons to kill everyone
If the IoM only used their weapons to take out chaos worlds, you would have a point. But the IG and SM are also used to take out worlds that no longer conform to the Imperial Truth. Any opposition that might threaten the IoM's supremacy is brutally repressed. The IoM wants to rule ALL of the galaxy and will not tolerate the existence of other races, or other human enclaves outside of their command.
Your Ag World revolt argument is merely an argument in defense of slavery to the needs of another. Free people do not need imperial overlords to form a functioning society, it is only in a command economy (like the IoM or USSR) where systemic starvation is a problem. In a free economy, food is delivered and sold based on demand, not based on a mandate. If the Hive World is producing valuable goods, a revolt on an Ag world will only slightly distort the food market, and it will stabilize when production is increased to take advantage of the higher demand. In a command economy, people starve.
Finally, industrial accidents are completely irrelevant to the deliberate taking of a human life to support another. The sacrifices to the Golden Throne are not freely given or risked (as industrial accidents come from an assumption of risk).
Would the Nazi grnocide have been acceptable if the deaths were necessary to support Hitler's life?
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
37036
Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
biccat wrote:Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Which has everything to do with the scale at hand. "A and B are two sides of the same coin" does not follow from "X and Y were both bad, and both superficially resemble A". If we are to compare two things, for the purposes of providing a more tangible example of A and B, then the two things should match each other in scale roughly relative to the relation between A and B.
Again, I have no idea what you're talking about. The scale of the conflict has absolutely nothing to do with the analogy.
A is like X. B is like Y. Therefore, A is to B as X is to Y.
In my example, I describe the relationship between the Imperium and Chaos and Soviets and Nazis. Both Soviets and Nazis have more in common with the IoM or Chaos than either IoM or Chaos has with the Allies as a whole. Scale is completely irrelevant.
However, I invite you to please explain your rationale further if I've misconstrued something.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The supposed philosophical goals of the two sides are completely irrelevant when one wants to look at their actions. The Allies carpet bombed civilian populations with incendiaries, and ultimately with one of the most horrifying terror weapons ever created. This killed civilians by the tens of thousands. This served their strategic purposes, so they did it despite its brutality. This is worse in the context and scale of that conflict than the Imperium torching worlds given over to chaos, genestealers, or tyranids, and you could doubtlessly find any number of far greater sacrifices (in the scale of things) made than the golden throne requires. The Axis powers expended massive amounts of resources rounding up and slaughtering civilians for entirely insane reasons, which is kind of equivalent in spirit to Chaos cultists sacrificing themselves to summon daemons to kill everyone, only less insane (that's right, Chaos cultists make Nazis look sane).
Philosophical goals are very relevent, because it's how we give context to actions, and understand why those actions were done. Killing someone in self defense is moral, while killing someone in cold blood is immoral. The results are the same, but the motivations are very different, which leads to a different moral conclusion.
You cannot distant actions from morality to argue that the actions are morally equivalent. Either morality matters (and we can label evil) or it doesn't (and Chaos is no worse than the IoM).
But the relation between the Imperium and Chaos isn't remotely like the relation between the Nazis and the Soviets. The Imperium acts to preserve humanity from the predations of Xenos and Daemons, as well as from the catastrophic collapse that results when people stop working to keep society running. Chaos acts towards no particular goal, aside from the advancement or satiation of whatever petty actor you happen to be looking at at the moment, with a healthy dose of insanity and daemons thrown into the mix.
While the Soviets had better reasons for what they did than the Nazis, the difference is not nearly so great as that between "harm the insignificant few to save the many" and "KiLl EvErYoNe AnD eAt ThEm FoR dAeMoN mAsTer!"
Finally, the key difference between the IoM and the Allied bombing of cities is that the IoM has options not available during WWII. The Allies took out cities because that was the only way to destroy industrial production that benefitted the enemy. Today, we use precision guided missiles. Further, the Allies were fighting an enemy that responded to such tactics. The IoM not only has less violent means, they are fighting an enemy immune to genocide (and benefits from it).
No, they don't, and the "obliterate everything from orbit" option is only used when a planet cannot be recovered, due to daemonic incursions, genestealer infestation that's progressed too far to root out, or when the planet is swarming with tyranids and everyone is either dead or about to be eaten alive and used to fuel the hive fleet on to the next planet full of many billions of innocents. Normal Chaos cults are just rounded up by hand, usually with the minimum collateral damage necessary to prevent their escape. Likewise peasant revolts, if they don't manage to remove the governor in one fell swoop and return to loyally serving the Imperium and their fellow man, are put down by sending in soldiers to shoot the rioters, not by obliterating the valuable planet.
Your Ag World revolt argument is merely an argument in defense of slavery to the needs of another. Free people do not need imperial overlords to form a functioning society, it is only in a command economy (like the IoM or USSR) where systemic starvation is a problem. In a free economy, food is delivered and sold based on demand, not based on a mandate. If the Hive World is producing valuable goods, a revolt on an Ag world will only slightly distort the food market, and it will stabilize when production is increased to take advantage of the higher demand. In a command economy, people starve.
The Soviet Union, a horribly, horribly mismanaged country, led by madmen and thugs, and following a critically flawed Anarchist philosophy, still managed to go from an agricultural backwater devastated by the most brutal war that has ever been seen to the second most powerful nation on Earth, with all the world arrayed against them, while being narrowly beaten out by a pseudo-capitalist (the "pseudo" part comes in due to government actions to prevent the sort of starvation and collapse you're claiming Capitalism prevents (and which, ironically, Adam Smith himself supported: "When the regulation, therefore, is in support of the workman, it is always just and equitable; but it is sometimes otherwise when in favour of the masters.")) nation that started with an established, intact industrial infrastructure and the entire world hailing them as heroes.
And of course the Imperium, most notably, is not actually a command economy. They don't care what you do, or how you do it (as long as it doesn't involve Xenos or Daemons), so long as you pay the rather light taxes demanded of worlds. Agriworlds pay in food, which gets dumped on traders on hiveworlds, while hiveworlds perform simple manufacturing and bureaucratic work, and provide about .1% of their population for the Guard under the most dire of conditions.
Finally, industrial accidents are completely irrelevant to the deliberate taking of a human life to support another. The sacrifices to the Golden Throne are not freely given or risked (as industrial accidents come from an assumption of risk).
Would the Nazi grnocide have been acceptable if the deaths were necessary to support Hitler's life?
The golden throne claims less than a billionth of a percent of the human population, all taken from the weakest and most unstable psykers, who tend to explode in torrents of warpfire and daemons, in order to keep the Astronomicon running, which enables interstellar travel, which stops hundreds of trillions from starving to death on hive worlds, and enables troops to react to Xenos incursions and Chaos uprisings. To put this into perspective with the real world, that's like putting down a single rabid dog to cure cancer, the energy crisis, aids, global warming, and general geopolitical strife.
39863
Post by: davij
Minor correction: the shark is even more innocent than that. If it attacks you, it's because it thought you were a seal, being an effectively mindless fish and all; most sharks ostensibly dislike humans as a food source, and frequently just swim away after realizing their mistake (of course, by that point it's probably too late for you, since it only realizes its mistake after taking a bite and discovering that you don't taste like a seal).
Right the shark was definatley a bad example, the point I failed to make was, we are as humans judging the unhuman as humans. How can something be evil for doing what it is created for. Your riught, daemons are manifestations of raw emotion human emotion, so therfore are humans evil? Can we humanity as a species as wholly evil? From a daemons PoV, if it indeed really has one, is that it is doing what it is supposed to be doing, what is meant to do; it has no concept of good nor evil, only what it feels it has to do.
The same could be said of Orks. Are orks evil when they kill each other for dominance? By human standards, yes, to an orks pov it is a rational, and everyday occurence.
As to the NAzi's, to my pov, what they did was wrong, no excuses. But, I'm pretty certain that for many Nazi's what they were doing was for the greater good and that they felt they were doing the right thing, eliminating the jewish "threat" and that to a Nazi's PoV they were in fact the good guys. Remember, it is the victors that write the history books, if we had been brought up in the third reich we would probably have a very different opinion of Hitler.
EDIT: the point I'm actually arguing is that, for all it's faults, I don't think the Imperium is evil...but I don't se how chaos can be labelled evil, except from a hume viewpoint, (But not always!)
39004
Post by: biccat
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:But the relation between the Imperium and Chaos isn't remotely like the relation between the Nazis and the Soviets. The Imperium acts to preserve humanity from the predations of Xenos and Daemons, as well as from the catastrophic collapse that results when people stop working to keep society running. Chaos acts towards no particular goal, aside from the advancement or satiation of whatever petty actor you happen to be looking at at the moment, with a healthy dose of insanity and daemons thrown into the mix.
Actually, they are. The Soviets (Imperium) seek to extend their influence across the world. They annexed nearby nations and made them vassals to Russia. Their resources were plundered and their economies were structured to benefit the Russians. Further, their expansionist philosophy excluded any rival states not under their power. The Imperium likewise doesn't tolerate non-imperial worlds. Of course, what stopped the soviet expansion was an external threat of MAD. This isn't present in the 40k-verse, so the Imperium is allowed to run unchecked (except by xenos forces, but there's no threat to their power base of Mars/Terra).
Chaos, the Nazis, are an opposing force to the IoM, because they think that their set of dictators are preferrable, not because they offer any real ideological difference. Chaos is just as possessive and expansionist as the IoM, just more rapey crazy.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The Soviet Union, a horribly, horribly mismanaged country, led by madmen and thugs
It wasn't mismanaged, as you said, it was able to assemble a major military presence in less than 100 years (although the US was primarily agricultural pre-WWI as well). The fatal flaw of the USSR wasn't mismanagement, but management at all. In order to maintain their power, they had to kill a LOT of people, mostly by feeding supporters and starving opponents, at least when they weren't arresting/torturing/executing them. The Imperium has the same philosophy, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette. The problem is that only the very powerful get to enjoy that omelette, the rest are just eggs.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:And of course the Imperium, most notably, is not actually a command economy.
The existence of hive worlds and Agri worlds disproves this. As does the massive amounts of armaments and required industrial support.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote: in order to keep the Astronomicon running, which enables interstellar travel, which stops hundreds of trillions from starving to death on hive worlds, and enables troops to react to Xenos incursions and Chaos uprisings.
Right, eggs broken and all of that I understand the argument, but I don't accept that it is moral.
Why is it so hard to accept that the Imperium is not the shining beacon of freedom and prosperity? The fluff makes it pretty clear that the IoM is a brutal system, but the Emperor and his SM are the last defense for humanity, and the brutality is necessary in such a grimdark place.
If that is true, maybe it is hard to accept that the only way mankind can survive is through slavery and repression. Which is why I think that the IoM is evil (although maybe not as evil as Chaos).
37036
Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
biccat wrote:Sir Pseudonymous wrote:But the relation between the Imperium and Chaos isn't remotely like the relation between the Nazis and the Soviets. The Imperium acts to preserve humanity from the predations of Xenos and Daemons, as well as from the catastrophic collapse that results when people stop working to keep society running. Chaos acts towards no particular goal, aside from the advancement or satiation of whatever petty actor you happen to be looking at at the moment, with a healthy dose of insanity and daemons thrown into the mix.
Actually, they are. The Soviets (Imperium) seek to extend their influence across the world. They annexed nearby nations and made them vassals to Russia. Their resources were plundered and their economies were structured to benefit the Russians. Further, their expansionist philosophy excluded any rival states not under their power. The Imperium likewise doesn't tolerate non-imperial worlds. Of course, what stopped the soviet expansion was an external threat of MAD. This isn't present in the 40k-verse, so the Imperium is allowed to run unchecked (except by xenos forces, but there's no threat to their power base of Mars/Terra).
Chaos, the Nazis, are an opposing force to the IoM, because they think that their set of dictators are preferrable, not because they offer any real ideological difference. Chaos is just as possessive and expansionist as the IoM, just more rapey crazy.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:While the Soviets had better reasons for what they did than the Nazis, the difference is not nearly so great as that between "harm the insignificant few to save the many" and "KiLl EvErYoNe AnD eAt ThEm FoR dAeMoN mAsTer!"
This is why I said that "A is like X and Y, therefore X is to Y as A is to B" doesn't work. The Imperium shares aesthetic similarities with both the Soviets and the Nazis, and some behavioral similarities with the Soviets (only without the whole "Marxism" thing). Chaos, however, doesn't resemble the Nazis to any good extent, when taken on its own. The Nazi leadership was insane, and wasted massive amounts of resources on entirely pointless, insane things, but Chaos makes them look benevolent and rational by comparison. Therefore it is disingenuous to try to paint the Imperium vs Chaos as equivalent to the Soviets vs the Nazis. If you want an accurate comparison involving the Nazis, you have to tone down the scale accordingly, which leaves the Imperium as roughly equivalent to the Allies. They did horrible things for a good cause, while the Nazis did worse things for the sake of their gibbering insanity. Even there, when scaled back up to 40K levels, the Allies end up looking worse than the Imperium, while the Nazis still look better than Chaos. That is how great a difference there is between the two factions.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The Soviet Union, a horribly, horribly mismanaged country, led by madmen and thugs
It wasn't mismanaged, as you said, it was able to assemble a major military presence in less than 100 years (although the US was primarily agricultural pre-WWI as well). The fatal flaw of the USSR wasn't mismanagement, but management at all. In order to maintain their power, they had to kill a LOT of people, mostly by feeding supporters and starving opponents, at least when they weren't arresting/torturing/executing them. The Imperium has the same philosophy, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette. The problem is that only the very powerful get to enjoy that omelette, the rest are just eggs.
That's a gross misinterpretation of history based on anti-soviet propaganda. Stalin, in particular, was a borderline slowed thug, who made a point of purging everyone competent he could find. Subsequent leaders were a little less egregious, but still didn't make it to power based on competence at leadership, but instead based on competence in winning internal political conflicts. They embarked on monumentally backwards, pointless, or otherwise critically flawed schemes, while wasting massive amounts of resources on cheap armaments to give away to guerrillas in foreign countries, and attempted to enforce a severely flawed, outdated ideology that happened to be at direct odds with what they were actually doing. They started with a devastated country, with massive losses in manpower and resources, due to WWI. After a brutal civil war, Stalin won out, and immediately purged everyone who actually knew what they were doing. Then, they were burnt to the ground again by the Nazis, before turning the tide with overwhelming numbers. Despite all these disadvantages, they still wound up second only to the US, before burning themselves out in a monumentally stupid war in Afghanistan (mostly due to the US funneling weapons and money to the resistance fighters, ironically the same ones they're fighting today) and collapsing.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:And of course the Imperium, most notably, is not actually a command economy.
The existence of hive worlds and Agri worlds disproves this. As does the massive amounts of armaments and required industrial support.
First, the existence of hiveworlds and agriworlds no more implies a command economy than cities and farms do. Second, the vast majority of the armaments aren't even produced by the Imperium, as the Adeptus Mechanicus is entirely separate from the Imperial command structure. The Imperium is too large to control any economies; it only places taxes upon planetary governments, who are free to act however they please so long as they pay the taxes and don't traffic with Xenos or Daemons. While they nominally own all the trading vessels save for those of Rogue Traders, the day to day to management generally falls entirely into private hands (I believe the situation with real cargo ships is similar, though I'm not familiar with the matter).
Sir Pseudonymous wrote: in order to keep the Astronomicon running, which enables interstellar travel, which stops hundreds of trillions from starving to death on hive worlds, and enables troops to react to Xenos incursions and Chaos uprisings.
Right, eggs broken and all of that I understand the argument, but I don't accept that it is moral.
You left out the whole "the people who are sacrificed to it are walking bombs, who would otherwise simply be killed to spare them the horror of their inevitable death and for the safety of others" thing.
Why is it so hard to accept that the Imperium is not the shining beacon of freedom and prosperity? The fluff makes it pretty clear that the IoM is a brutal system, but the Emperor and his SM are the last defense for humanity, and the brutality is necessary in such a grimdark place.
If that is true, maybe it is hard to accept that the only way mankind can survive is through slavery and repression. Which is why I think that the IoM is evil (although maybe not as evil as Chaos).
The Imperium has exactly nothing to do with how free people are, that's a matter for local governments to determine. The Imperium only cares that the wheels keep turning as best they can. Which means shutting down local strife when it endangers the wellbeing of other worlds. If rebels successfully oust the local government, and don't try to secede from the Imperium, the Imperium doesn't care; if rebels shut down all outgoing food shipments from an agriworld and don't manage to seize power in the year(s) it takes for the Imperium to muster a response/decide to get involved, then they get brutally put down by a few regiments of the Guard; if rebels seize power, and try to secede from the Imperium, then they get brutally put down by the Guard, and a new government is put in place.
Everything the Imperium does is for the good of humanity: agriworlds have to keep churning out food or trillions die; hiveworlds have to keep paying taxes and providing recruits for the Guard, or trillions die; forgeworlds are outside the jurisdiction of the Imperium, and are more an inversion with the governing bodies of forgeworlds placing significant pressure on the Imperium to give them whatever they want; other worlds provide raw materials, or just raise the occasional Guard regiment, and the Imperium leaves them alone beyond ensuring that they don't deal with Xenos or Daemons.
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Post by: Urien_Rakarth
no such thing as good and evil, just point of views
20564
Post by: Owain
Brother Heinrich wrote:The Chaos Gods are selfish to be sure and those dedicated to them but I believe there are certain nuggets of 'right' amongst the renegades, for example, the Alpha Legion and the Night Lords, both legions seem to hold to the original ideal of bringing down a father who betrayed them.
The Alpha Legion sought to dethrone the Emperor in order to induce a repentant Horus to slaughter all of Humanity and cleanse the galaxy of the taint of Chaos in the process. Their goal was to sacrifice Humanity for the good of all species in the galaxy.
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Post by: Andilus Greatsword
The Imperium is pretty awful in 40k, but they do have their motivations to these actions which are brutally sensible. They kill psykers/heretics because they can create daemons and lead to billions of deaths. They kill mutants because they are trying to direct the evolutionary future of mankind in order to strengthen it. They kill xenos because xenos want to kill them, and it will ultimately lead to a stronger universe for mankind.
The Tau are the most "good" of all the races though. Yes, they'll kill those who don't join them, but they do allow anyone to join them freely and would unite the galaxy if they could.
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
Andilus Greatsword wrote:The Tau are the most "good" of all the races though. Yes, they'll kill those who don't join them, but they do allow anyone to join them freely and would unite the galaxy if they could.
The Tau are more "naive" than "good." They're still brutal in eliminating perceived threats, they just don't recognize all the threats, and consistently pay for it. Like the whole "accepting the 'charity' of a haemonculi coven, which cost them the entire population of a world, consigned to the most hilarious heinous torture" or "recognizing necrons as their saviors, then getting cut down by them" things.
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