I have just read through the comments on the latest Dark Eldar and wow it never fails to amaze me the amount of negativity I see on Dakka so angry I had to post this rant.
Since when has the actual cost of a miniature been linked to its in points cost in the game? Oh and the sculpting critics here is an idea learn to sculpt or at the least wait till you actually see the miniatures before tearing into them photos are often misleading. And if the cost is really crippling your wallet here is another idea get another hobby.
JimBowen38 wrote:I have just read through the comments on the latest Dark Eldar and wow it never fails to amaze me the amount of negativity I see on Dakka so angry I had to post this rant.
Since when has the actual cost of a miniature been linked to its in points cost in the game? Oh and the sculpting critics here is an idea learn to sculpt or at the least wait till you actually see the miniatures before tearing into them photos are often misleading. And if the cost is really crippling your wallet here is another idea get another hobby.
I hate to take you up on this but GW themselves have said they have priced things like Goldswords and other elite plastics at a much higher price than the 'rank and file' plastics due to their placement in the army book or codex. That's a direct link between points value and price right there.
Given that Beastmasters are not supposed to be an elite unit and that one needs a fair few of them to make a decent unit, I think it is perfectly reasonable for people to comment on the cost.
As for the aesthetics, personal preferences are just that - personal. In the DE thread there were just as many people who liked as disliked that I could see.
GW pricing strategy will always polarise people. It's not enough to tell people to 'get another hobby' - I seriously doubt anyone posting on Dakka has to make a choice between food and miniatures, for example. Its a luxury hobby - we all understand that. But for GW to up the ante year upon year, especially after so many have made a large buy in, is somewhat churlish.
You will always find people complaining about GW here and on other boards; its just the nature of the beast. The trick is to effectively sort the wheat from the chaff.
I was going to cover it point for point, but after re-reading your last sentence... I can understand there's a lot that you don't agree with, and I hate to break it to you, but you just brought some of that negativity home. Just, instead of miniatures you're being caustic to people.
Besides, Filbert did an awesome job already. For real.
Pshah! Dakka is not negative. Posters on Dakka can be negative, but when people post pictures of crap looking models then asks "what do you think?", I'm not going to p*ss in his pocket and call it golden.
You don't have to give up 40k if you don't like GWs prices, but there ARE other minifigs manufacturers out there who make comparable products that might suit your purposes just as well - and are often cheaper and better made.
Wargaming IS my cheapest hobby. I've learned where to save money. I learned to scratchbuild and kitbash other companies stuff to fit my game (it's fine for everyone except the one or two GW snobs in my club ) - the rules do not specify that you MUST use their products in the game (and GW don't run events here, so that angle is irrelevant).
JimBowen38 wrote:Oh and the sculpting critics here is an idea learn to sculpt or at the least wait till you actually see the miniatures before tearing into them photos are often misleading.
You don't need to be Ceasar to understand Ceasar, and you don't need to be a sculpter to know what an ugly model is. Likewise, we're the consumers, it's GW's job to appeal to us, not the other way around.
And if the cost is really crippling your wallet here is another idea get another hobby.
There's a difference between too expensive and too expensive to justify. I can justify buying expensive models (I'm making a truescale army right now, each single marine costs $25 to make, that's a lot of money), but I can't justify buying those models for that price. It's not that I can't afford it, I just wouldn't feel very good about paying for that.
Wow, that's a harsh one. In all seriousness I think you may be getting a little too wound up over this
As for the sculpts, personally I like them all excluding the razorwings, which ARE well-sculpted birds, and if I needed some birds in flight would consider the purchase but they don't really look like the evil vicious birds the fluff makes them sound, I really like the beastmaster, though I don't really know why they decided to mount them on skyboards in the new 'dex.
JimBowen38 wrote:Since when has the actual cost of a miniature been linked to its in points cost in the game?
Imagine each ork boy cost £5, would anyone play (and therefore purchase) orks? From a sales perspective, cheap units should have cheap costs, why would anyone spend a ridiculous amount of money on a unit that requires numbers to be effective? Think why everyone converts their own Skaven Poisoned Wind Globadiers? It's because GW are charging ~£8 for a single model that are 10pts each and need a minimum of 10 to be anywhere close to effective, the reason no-one uses PW Globadiers is because you have to drop £80 before you have a unit that is worth taking, the limiting factor here is the cost of the unit, rather than the rules themselves.
JimBowen38 wrote:And if the cost is really crippling your wallet here is another idea get another hobby.
I'm not sure as to your circumstances but I really could not think of a more disagreeable comment than this, and I will be honest in that at the moment it has hit rather a raw nerve with me. I recently graduated from university and I am in a low income job, so because the costs of my hobby, (thats right, hobby) have become prohibitively expensive, I should get rid of my orks and trade my paints for a TV guide and take up lounging in front of the idiot box as my chosen pastime?. GW have been increasing prices regularly for a very long time (and their most recent financial statement is beginning to show consumer backlash). What are you saying here? that those without masses of disposable income are not welcome in the grim darkness of the far future?
I would agree with you on Dakka being very negative. Overly negative at times. It seems like everyone here loves taking a swing at GW (the "evil empire") whenever they can. Just don't let it bother you. And don't get caught up in all the sadistic bashing of GW. Sometimes, GW deserves a smack in the face, but I don't think they are as bad as the typical Dakkaite seems to want them to be.
It's the internet, you'll find unnecessary nerd rage everywhere.
I normally defend the cost of the hobby, sure it's expensive, but when you look at the amount of time assembling/painting/playing with it, I feel it justifies the cost. The new beast units have tipped the scales for me though, £150+ quid for one 200 point unit is sickening.
I think it's fair enough for people to voice their opinion on a sculpt, as others have said, there is just as much (if not more) praise regarding the actual models themseves in that thread. It's just the bizzaro logic of making a hoard unit unit out of £7-15 1-per-pack metal models that have caused most of the negativity.
If the majority people are on the webz raging about how rubbish somthing is, its probably because the people who like it are pre ordering it and choosing there colour scheme...
i think forums are always a bit tetchy, even people who agree with you can seem aggressive but thats because you cant judge a persons tone in text (even with ork-shaped emoticons). Its just other people sitting at home eating biscuits and dropping crumbs on the keyboards like you and me, there not often any malice in comments made.
i find people who are too nice way more disturbing <(look an emoticon for you to judge my tone by!!)
Personally, I don't much care for the trend on dakka of people writing off all criticism of GW as "nerdrage" or "haters" or whatever latest trendy buzzword is for casually and reflexively dismissing the opinions of anyone who dislikes something you like without bothering to actually read and understand them.
But the nice thing about Dakka is the mods are very effective, and discourse is actually remarkably civil compared to most forums I've been on. So, whatever, people can disagree with me. It's alright. I've got certain things I'm looking for in minis, and I'm asserting what I want to see. Just like the people who disagree with me are. They're still wrong of course, but it doesn't hurt anyone to let them be wrong.
I'll say this though. You can bet criticism of GW would be a lot milder here if they didn't work so hard to tune out all criticism of the company through their own channels. If GW's long term customers had a reason to think the company cared about giving them a satisfactory customer experience, it would take a lot of wind out of the sails here.
JimBowen38 wrote:I have just read through the comments on the latest Dark Eldar and wow it never fails to amaze me the amount of negativity I see on Dakka so angry I had to post this rant.
Since when has the actual cost of a miniature been linked to its in points cost in the game? Oh and the sculpting critics here is an idea learn to sculpt or at the least wait till you actually see the miniatures before tearing into them photos are often misleading. And if the cost is really crippling your wallet here is another idea get another hobby.
JimBowen38 wrote:I have just read through the comments on the latest Dark Eldar and wow it never fails to amaze me the amount of negativity I see on Dakka so angry I had to post this rant.
Since when has the actual cost of a miniature been linked to its in points cost in the game? Oh and the sculpting critics here is an idea learn to sculpt or at the least wait till you actually see the miniatures before tearing into them photos are often misleading. And if the cost is really crippling your wallet here is another idea get another hobby.
It's the same on nearly every forum I go on (Apart from ATT, that's just amazingly well moderated and small in size)
I frequent my local football teams forum (Notts County) and I've never read so much negativity in all my life but you still get good posters and good threads so it's swings and roundabouts really.
Pah, you want negativity join some of the other forums and see what happens. Then again, there are some that have their noses so far up GW ass its a bit scary.
Also I think the comment you made on the crippling wallet thing is a bit harsh and rather negative as well. Your sounding like an elitist there. Youd be surprised that not everyone that plays isnt super rich and pisses money in the toilet every morning. Im not saying Im trading food stamps for cash to play 40k, but justifying the cost on some things is just a bit hard to do some times. When I first got into 40k over 10 years ago, it was actually fairly cheap to play, I almost never said "whoa thats to pricey"
Now I go out and alot of the times I think the opposite. I think $50 for that? REALLY? Wow, I think Ill be scratch building that. But I play Orks, and lucky for me I actually think alot of the Ork line isnt that bad. Im a buy/build over time type, and the majority of the box sets are in the $20 range. BUT, even Orks have the holy cow prices. a singe Mega Nob is how much? Good lord!
JOHIRA wrote:Personally, I don't much care for the trend on dakka of people writing off all criticism of GW as "nerdrage" or "haters" or whatever latest trendy buzzword is for casually and reflexively dismissing the opinions of anyone who dislikes something you like without bothering to actually read and understand them.
Calling anyone with something positive to say a fanboi or apologist though, totally cool.
This is too good of an etymological opportunity to discard! Ladies and Gentlemen of Dakka, our negative comments to expensive and often useless models that we will buy anyways has gained a new title- Dakka Negative.
'Dakka Negative' definition- A negative comment about or criticism of a product which is rendered moot by the individual making it purchasing the item or army being discussed at a later date. See also- Stormpelican.
Man, we need a fist bump or respect knuckles Orkmoticon.
This will probably get lost at the bottom of this heap... but...
Dakka is made up of fans. Being a fan of anything means you care more than the avarage person, about something that many see as unimportant. The fact that people care is what's important to take from that. The average person would be apathetic to what GW does; where the fan and dakka-ite care enough to want to see more or better and endure an affront the average person would walk away from GW and have nothing further to do with them.
Next all forums run the risk of falling into that cravass of negativity, for the simple fact bad news and negative opinions tend to be more extreme when they happen and hold your attention more. With many more questions and responses going to why something is dissatisfying.
For example, a thread entirely about good news looks like this:
Jesus wrote:I love these new Dark Eldar...
Pope wrote:Yeah, I agree. I like that too
Paul wrote:Did you notice the awesome skull head. Its so cool!
Jesus wrote:I know what you mean. I hope they do more like this
The back patting can only go on so long.
As opposed to:
Adolf H. wrote:Those dark eldar suck...
Benito M. wrote:I dunno, I kinda like them.
Genghis K. wrote:I don't see what's wrong with them
Adolf H. wrote:The males are too effeminant and females too masculine.
Genghis K. wrote:I don't see that.
Adolf H. wrote:How do you not see that? They have little waists and pointy chins and ears
Genghis K. wrote:You porbably wish they were all super human Space Marines...
Adolf H. wrote:Yes... possibly blood thirsty with blond hair... don't get me started on the spikes
That tendecy to draw out the negative threads is what keeps people coming back and keeps the thread at the top of the forum. It ends up being seen more.
JimBowen38 wrote:Since when has the actual cost of a miniature been linked to its in points cost in the game? Oh and the sculpting critics here is an idea learn to sculpt or at the least wait till you actually see the miniatures before tearing into them photos are often misleading.
The new Dark Eldar stuff, just like the stormraven, look like gak. The reason people are pissed is because wave 1 dark eldar was so beautiful. How could they go from Total Win to Epic Fail so fast?
There is a tendency, not unique to Dakka, to think of Games Workshop as a monolithic corporate powerhouse run by overwhelmingly powerful but ultimately idiotic super villains. And of course there is a corresponding tendency for people who post on internet fora to think of themselves as misunderstood, genius rogues who can unravel evil, corporate plans. The pages and pages of running down GW ("telling it how it is") constitute little more than baseless speculation on the part of those who equate appearing cynical with appearing wise. Now, there are a lot of people who simply don't like a thing or don't want to pay for a thing. That's fine and it's not what I'm talking about. But there is also a relaible cadre of "haters" around here who will find something wrong with anything that GW does up until you call them on it. And then, just to be contrary and show how naive you are, they will bring up something they like about GW or say "hey, I love this game but GW hates me." (The GW "apologists" are just as contrarian and negative as the "haters," by the way. Both camps would gladly argue with a fencepost.) To be frank, GW is simply not Wayland-Yutani/the Illuminati.
I see where you're coming from and I get tired of it myself, OP.
Honestly, I think the new Dark Eldar look great. If I didn't have over 50,000 points of unpainted models, not to mention four bloodbowl teams, on my painting desk, I'd be doing an army.
People don't like the price of the beasts, that's understandable. I want to find a way to get those birds into some other army I've already got... I think the beasts rock.
As for the stormraven, well, if you stick wings on a brick, it doesn't make it an aeroplane.
plastictrees wrote:Welcome to the internet. If you say something people disagree with you're a hater or a troll.
Stop trolling.
J/k.
In seriousness though, why else pop in on Dakka and make a subject about how negative and whiny Dakka is? Then you fill it with blanket statements like (paraphrasing) "If you think its expensive then stop playing." "If you dont like the sculpts then become a sculptor."
Then abandon the post after there's a huge slew of well-thought out replies? I could be wrong, but it seems either counter intuitive (Whining about whining..) or trollish.
JimBowen38 wrote:Oh and the sculpting critics here is an idea learn to sculpt.
See thats a really smart idea
Following this brilliant logic why dont you apply it to your own post?
" oh and theres so much negativity here and since Im not a negative person and by consequence I dont know anything about negativity so I just shoud shut up!"
After reading through all the counter posts I feel a lot better it was all relevant (and no death threats thanks people) to my admitedly trite coments which on reflection ie five minutes after posting I realised where fairly pointless.
There is a tendency, not unique to Dakka, to think of Games Workshop as a monolithic corporate powerhouse run by overwhelmingly powerful but ultimately idiotic super villains. And of course there is a corresponding tendency for people who post on internet fora to think of themselves as misunderstood, genius rogues who can unravel evil, corporate plans. The pages and pages of running down GW ("telling it how it is") constitute little more than baseless speculation on the part of those who equate appearing cynical with appearing wise. Now, there are a lot of people who simply don't like a thing or don't want to pay for a thing. That's fine and it's not what I'm talking about. But there is also a relaible cadre of "haters" around here who will find something wrong with anything that GW does up until you call them on it. And then, just to be contrary and show how naive you are, they will bring up something they like about GW or say "hey, I love this game but GW hates me." (The GW "apologists" are just as contrarian and negative as the "haters," by the way. Both camps would gladly argue with a fencepost.) To be frank, GW is simply not Wayland-Yutani/the Illuminati.
I see where you're coming from and I get tired of it myself, OP.
Just wanted to underscore this wisdom before it gets thoroughly buried in nonsense.
It does get kind of annoying with people complaining about unreleased models...
Like the Stormraven ("chibihawk") and Dreadknight ("Transformer")
I mean 1 leaked photo of the Stormraven and everyone was complaining how there was no way it could fly/ was the worst abomination in existence/etc, and now the same thing with the Dreadknight one blurry picture and everyone is already complaining about how it looks.
Price is a valid complaint though, personally i think $50 for 5 terminators is a bit much
JimBowen38 wrote:After reading through all the counter posts I feel a lot better it was all relevant (and no death threats thanks people) to my admitedly trite coments which on reflection ie five minutes after posting I realised where fairly pointless.
No worries, Jim. People tend to be blunt online (me included). Whether it's the freedom of being anonomous or whatever. In my experience, people that troll online tend to be much more reasonable in person.
JimBowen38 wrote:After reading through all the counter posts I feel a lot better it was all relevant (and no death threats thanks people) to my admitedly trite coments which on reflection ie five minutes after posting I realised where fairly pointless.
JimBowen38 wrote:After reading through all the counter posts I feel a lot better it was all relevant (and no death threats thanks people) to my admitedly trite coments which on reflection ie five minutes after posting I realised where fairly pointless.
As, this very post suggests, strong comments are the groundwork for reasonable resolutions. A post beginning with "I hate everything about the DE models" followed by "I now see a lot their good points" is not at all pointless.
Gibbsey wrote:Like the Stormraven ("chibihawk")
The phrase "chibihawk" endeared me to the Storm Raven. With that model, I think it's just a matter of getting used to it.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Here's an idea, how's about you get another forum.
chromedog wrote:but when people post pictures of crap looking models then asks "what do you think?", I'm not going to p*ss in his pocket and call it golden.
The OP didn't even mention this. Now I wonder if he might have a point about negativity.
chromedog wrote:but when people post pictures of crap looking models then asks "what do you think?", I'm not going to p*ss in his pocket and call it golden.
The OP didn't even mention this. Now I wonder if he might have a point about negativity.
Again its an internet forum, that has people from all over the world on it. There are bound to be A holes on here. I too wont tell someone I think their pile of melted crayons look good. But at the same time, if I think something looks bad, I dont say anything. Kind of a cant say something nice, keep it to yourself. Chromedog just lost some respect on that one
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Here's an idea, how's about you get another forum.
Nah, Jim, please stick around.
Nope, he should go. I hear that 'you don't like the price, go get another hobby' argument all the damned time and it's cretinous bs.
There is a sizeable difference between being able to afford something and considering that something is priced beyond it's value, despite wishing to own it.
As to the pricing stucture he's mentioned, I've been told that exact reason by GW employees when I've asked just WTF the greatswords are priced at so damned high in comparison to the state troops. 'Because they aren't used as much, so we have to make their cost back buy selling them for more'...
So why is a Kymera more expensive than a Painboy with Grot Orderly? Cos I only need 1 of those in my army. They amount to the same amount of actual resource to make and sell, so what's with the price?
Also, OP, as a minor aside, have you ever heard someone complain about the price of gas? Start telling all of them to walk and enjoy the constructive feedback you'll receive.
plastictrees wrote:Welcome to the internet. If you say something people disagree with you're a hater or a troll.
That's not true. You're a jerk!
He's not mad, he's just jelly.
Seriously, of all the annoying, bourgie retorts to anyone who makes the merest hint that GW shouldn't price gouge us like sheep at the slaughterhouse, and that such pricing decisions may actually be long-run-optimal, the accusation that the person is "just jelly" is the one guaranteed to make me start ing.
And sometimes ranting just makes you feel better. It clears your head and can organize your thoughts. And sometimes, you have no one to rant to, or no one that cares that your miniature company has unfairly priced Dark Eldar beasts. So, you come to a place where people understand what you're talking about and maybe a few even agree with you.
Again its an internet forum, that has people from all over the world on it. There are bound to be A holes on here. I too wont tell someone I think their pile of melted crayons look good. But at the same time, if I think something looks bad, I dont say anything. Kind of a cant say something nice, keep it to yourself. Chromedog just lost some respect on that one
You stated my own thoughts more eloquently than I can. Thank you.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Here's an idea, how's about you get another forum.
Nah, Jim, please stick around.
Nope, he should go.
We have room for more than your opinions, MGS.
If he doesn't like the company here, or people voicing opinions contrary to his about new products or pricing, then he should vote with his feet. Climbing into the pulpit to decry the community for voicing concern over cost is not going to win hearts and minds. I'd also like to congratulate him on finding himself the accrued wealth to not concern himself over the price of luxury items.
He's never failed to be amazed reading negativity towards GW? I'm never failed by the 2 dimensional defences to so much of their cut-throat sales practices that border on religious dogma.
His statement was 'if you don't like the price then get out' and my response is simple, 'no, if you don't like people complaining about paying money for something, you better return to your bunker' because yes, people will always complain but sometimes they have a good cause to.
JimBowen38 wrote:After reading through all the counter posts I feel a lot better it was all relevant (and no death threats thanks people) to my admitedly trite coments which on reflection ie five minutes after posting I realised where fairly pointless.
Hey dude, credit to you. The rarest thing on the internet is humility and it speaks to your character to make such a post. Stick around and post more.
JimBowen38 wrote:I have just read through the comments on the latest Dark Eldar and wow it never fails to amaze me the amount of negativity I see on Dakka so angry I had to post this rant.
Since when has the actual cost of a miniature been linked to its in points cost in the game? Oh and the sculpting critics here is an idea learn to sculpt or at the least wait till you actually see the miniatures before tearing into them photos are often misleading. And if the cost is really crippling your wallet here is another idea get another hobby.
Thank you so much. I completely agree.
People are ungrateful swine on here sometimes. At least you're getting a model. Stop complaining, especially if you don't even play DE No one's forcing you to buy anything. Just go about your business and be happy for other people who actually like the thing.
JimBowen38 wrote:After reading through all the counter posts I feel a lot better it was all relevant (and no death threats thanks people) to my admitedly trite coments which on reflection ie five minutes after posting I realised where fairly pointless.
Hey dude, credit to you. The rarest thing on the internet is humility and it speaks to your character to make such a post. Stick around and post more.
+1.
This is why he shouldn't get out MGS, there aren't many people prepared to be apologetic like that.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Here's an idea, how's about you get another forum.
Nah, Jim, please stick around.
Nope, he should go. I hear that 'you don't like the price, go get another hobby' argument all the damned time and it's cretinous bs.
There is a sizeable difference between being able to afford something and considering that something is priced beyond it's value, despite wishing to own it.
As to the pricing stucture he's mentioned, I've been told that exact reason by GW employees when I've asked just WTF the greatswords are priced at so damned high in comparison to the state troops. 'Because they aren't used as much, so we have to make their cost back buy selling them for more'...
So why is a Kymera more expensive than a Painboy with Grot Orderly? Cos I only need 1 of those in my army. They amount to the same amount of actual resource to make and sell, so what's with the price?
Also, OP, as a minor aside, have you ever heard someone complain about the price of gas? Start telling all of them to walk and enjoy the constructive feedback you'll receive.
Had a similar thing pointed out to me when I pointed out the amount of plastic used in the new (at the time) Eldar Wraithlord and Space Marine Dreadnought, but they were same price. Was told that GW price for the unit, not the material.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Here's an idea, how's about you get another forum.
Nah, Jim, please stick around.
Nope, he should go.
This is why I love Dakka. MGS wins the thread.
There are more "positive" forums for games out there. I come to Dakka because the posters here can be negative towards GW or praise them endlessly. I think Dakka has a good balance.
Big P wrote:I find it amusing that wargaming is a 'luxury' hobby...
Does that mean I should hang around at posh golf courses and take up yachting?
My hobby is fairly cost neutral, as I paint for a couple of companies, and as I play historicals, its a hell of alot cheaper.
So for me, historical gaming is a cheap hobby.
As for GW... Some people just love them a little too much...
Yes.
A historical gamer can set himself up with De Bellis Antiquitatis rules, lists, and two complete matched 15mm ancient or mediaeval armies for a campaign, all for about £40.
arkapello wrote:If the majority people are on the webz raging about how rubbish somthing is, its probably because the people who like it are pre ordering it and choosing there colour scheme...
i think forums are always a bit tetchy, even people who agree with you can seem aggressive but thats because you cant judge a persons tone in text (even with ork-shaped emoticons). Its just other people sitting at home eating biscuits and dropping crumbs on the keyboards like you and me, there not often any malice in comments made.
i find people who are too nice way more disturbing <(look an emoticon for you to judge my tone by!!)
I concur whole heartedley! Here's a little something to remind us of what the internetz does to folks!
Jay dictating to Silent Bob in Mooby Burger, 'All you mother ers are gonna pay. You are the ones who are the ball-lickers. We're gonna your mothers while you watch and cry like little bitches. Once we get to Hollywood and find those Miramax s who are making that movie, we're gonna make 'em eat our , then out our , then eat their which is made up of our that we made 'em eat. Then you're all you mother s are next. Love, Jay and Silent Bob.'
Ketara wrote:
This is why he shouldn't get out MGS, there aren't many people prepared to be apologetic like that.
He apologised when he realised his point was puerile and he was getting shot at, when it failed to generate a wave of support. In fact he's only getting praise now for apologising for his stupid thread. It's like Michael Vick just posted about how he's not doing dog fighting any more and everyone rushed to give him a medal... I've never organised dog fights, can I get a fething medal too?!?
Perhaps if he'd raised a well thought out point instead of bleating his disdain, I might have offered a more composed response, but 'you people complaining this miniature is too expensive are poor and should stop playing the game' is a short road to a retaliatory response.
If you are not a fan of GW's pricing or marketing, then Dakka definitely is not for you. Dakka has a very love/hate relationship with GW: they love to bash on it, but for every guy bashing on it there are an equal amount defending them.
Personally I just gave up on hoping for positive change. I sold all my GW products and moved on. That, however, was a personal decision made with careful consideration of my local player base, personal finances, and interests.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:
He apologised when he realised his point was puerile and he was getting shot at, when it failed to generate a wave of support. In fact he's only getting praise now for apologising for his stupid thread.
Perhaps if he'd raised a well thought out point instead of bleating his disdain, I might have offered a more composed response, but 'you people complaining this miniature is too expensive are poor and should stop playing the game' is a short road to a retaliatory response.
Don't you think you are being a little harsh? You are second guessing the guy's intentions for one. What do you want? A full on confession? Even if you are correct, calling him stupid isn't exactly the most civil thing in and of itself.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:
He apologised when he realised his point was puerile and he was getting shot at, when it failed to generate a wave of support. In fact he's only getting praise now for apologising for his stupid thread.
Perhaps if he'd raised a well thought out point instead of bleating his disdain, I might have offered a more composed response, but 'you people complaining this miniature is too expensive are poor and should stop playing the game' is a short road to a retaliatory response.
Don't you think you are being a little harsh? You are second guessing the guy's intentions for one. What do you want? A full on confession? Even if you are correct, calling him stupid isn't exactly the most civil thing in and of itself.
I called the topic of his thread stupid, he obviously isn't or he'd still be here defending it, instead he had the wit to back out of it and apologise for it.
Mannahnin wrote:MGS: Doing his best to prove the OP right, even when everyone (and the OP) has agreed that the OP was mostly wrong.
Doesnt matter if he was right or wrong, his atitude was double standarts... His comments are aimed at others but he doesnt live by his own principles... at least in this thread...
I mean if your not a sculptor you should not critisize and shut up... if you dont have money for the hobby you should stfu and move away yet he dislikes dakka and doesnt move away or shut up.
Either way I dont care much just find funny people feeling entitled to trow jabs at others just because they think they are... special
MeanGreenStompa wrote:You realise you're posting about me in a negative fashion, you naughty mod you...
COL. LANDA: I'm just teasing you, Fräulein. You know me, I tease rough.
NAVARRO wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:MGS: Doing his best to prove the OP right, even when everyone (and the OP) has agreed that the OP was mostly wrong.
Doesnt matter if he was right or wrong, his atitude was double standarts... His comments are aimed at others but he doesnt live by his own principles... at least in this thread...
I mean if your not a sculptor you should not critisize and shut up... if you dont have money for the hobby you should stfu and move away yet he dislikes dakka and doesnt move away or shut up.
Either way I dont care much just find funny people feeling entitled to trow jabs at others just because they think they are... special
Sure, his comments were off-base. Many folks posted thoughtful rebuttals which helped the OP reexamine the issue and realize he was out of line. That's much more productive than being nasty or telling him to get off the site. Doing so just promulgates the perception of negativity that the OP started with.
@Mannahnin Mind that I dont have any feelings towars the issue if he stays or leaves... its his choice really, and I dont know the fella or interacted much with him... Call me "negative" but I'm always happy to talk with anyone on dakka so if he wants to hang out on here good for him. I think he and MGS will be best buddies in no time
Gorechild wrote:It's the internet, you'll find unnecessary nerd rage everywhere.
I normally defend the cost of the hobby, sure it's expensive, but when you look at the amount of time assembling/painting/playing with it, I feel it justifies the cost. The new beast units have tipped the scales for me though, £150+ quid for one 200 point unit is sickening.
I think it's fair enough for people to voice their opinion on a sculpt, as others have said, there is just as much (if not more) praise regarding the actual models themseves in that thread. It's just the bizzaro logic of making a hoard unit unit out of £7-15 1-per-pack metal models that have caused most of the negativity.
Also, has anyone else here been to a dedicated modeling store? You'll find plastic tanks comparable to Rhinos for like 30-40 dollars. The prices really are actually pretty competitive when you look to our non-gaming modeling cousins.
JimBowen38 wrote:Since when has the actual cost of a miniature been linked to its in points cost in the game? Oh and the sculpting critics here is an idea learn to sculpt or at the least wait till you actually see the miniatures before tearing into them photos are often misleading.
The new Dark Eldar stuff, just like the stormraven, look like gak. The reason people are pissed is because wave 1 dark eldar was so beautiful. How could they go from Total Win to Epic Fail so fast?
...they...didn't?
I seriously don't see the "Epic Fail" here. All I see are people being childish ("lol tri-nips"), people who expected way too much ("omg the razorwings are so plain, they obviously should have been the most complicated and extravagant sculpt of the entire range!"), people being contradictory (deriding the clawed fiend for having alien features they don't like, and then bitching about the razorwings not being alien enough), or sexist pricks keeping age-old stereotypes alive ("lol women with muscles, and nice 'man-face'!"). I really don't know what everyone's problem with the beastmaster is, I can't even pretend to understand that one.
As with anywhere and anything there's going to be negative things as well as bad things. In most cases it's a matter of opinion, some people dislike the things other people like. Yes our hobby is expensive but it offers many other positive aspects, nothing perfect anyway.
Well that was rude. You've never even seen my face!
Assuming you're talking about the beastmaster...I still don't see it. It looks like an angry dude with a khymera skull helmet to me. He has really big teeth I guess, but it's heroic 28mm scale, like every model GW produces it has exaggerated features. Heads, hands, feet, weapons, etc.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:You realise you're posting about me in a negative fashion, you naughty mod you...
COL. LANDA: I'm just teasing you, Fräulein. You know me, I tease rough.
NAVARRO wrote: I think he and MGS will be best buddies in no time
Ah now gents, always a pleasure and n'er a chore, think i'll be off from this ere thread as it's getting toasty again and I've not brought me marshmallows nor me toastin fork.
I'll simple leave ye with this, dwell upon it a while...
Maybe thats more cronic when people have the preception that the price they are paying is way to high?
If I buy a miniature for 5euros its ok average stuff if its 10 euros needs to be special if its above that then I'm going to break down every milimeter with all my attention... and every little detail will be inspected.
What I'm saying is that maybe the high prices helps most of us to be extra picky?
Well yeah, the price is stupid, I agree with that. And I can see why that would have some people asking "That's it?".
But without taking price into account, I don't really see why people expected the razorwings to be really interesting models. Judging from the codex entry it was going to be something small and spammable, like nurglings or jungle swarms or rippers, and none of those are all that detailed. I think they look pretty good for what they are.
Its true with any hobby. as DR. Jeebus over on a magic the gathering forum used to say "wizards of the coast could put 100 doller bills in packs and people would complain on how they are folded”
There is a tendency, not unique to Dakka, to think of Games Workshop as a monolithic corporate powerhouse run by overwhelmingly powerful but ultimately idiotic super villains. And of course there is a corresponding tendency for people who post on internet fora to think of themselves as misunderstood, genius rogues who can unravel evil, corporate plans. The pages and pages of running down GW ("telling it how it is") constitute little more than baseless speculation on the part of those who equate appearing cynical with appearing wise. Now, there are a lot of people who simply don't like a thing or don't want to pay for a thing. That's fine and it's not what I'm talking about. But there is also a relaible cadre of "haters" around here who will find something wrong with anything that GW does up until you call them on it. And then, just to be contrary and show how naive you are, they will bring up something they like about GW or say "hey, I love this game but GW hates me." (The GW "apologists" are just as contrarian and negative as the "haters," by the way. Both camps would gladly argue with a fencepost.) To be frank, GW is simply not Wayland-Yutani/the Illuminati.
I see where you're coming from and I get tired of it myself, OP.
Well put sir. The all pervasive cynacism can be exasperating. Sometimes I fell like if you hate Warhammer so much why did you go to all of the trouble to find a forum, join it and complain regularly? Wouldn't your time be better spent doing anything else? Oh Well, that's the way some people like their internet I guess.
I get your point,but you also have to look at things from the perspective of long term gamers,GW wasn't always what it is now...and many of the changes made have been for the worse.
Many of us post from a "Really?.." Perspective.
I get your point,but you also have to look at things from the perspective of long term gamers,GW wasn't always what it is now...and many of the changes made have been for the worse.
Many of us post from a "Really?.." Perspective.
Well my post seems to belong more on page 2. Everyone seems to be in a warm, happy place on page 3.
Nonetheless, what really has happened since the days of yore to warrent "Really?"
@FITZZ: I have to say, it was never as good then as some remember and it's not as bad now as some imagine. If price outsrtips quality in a person's mind they don't need to attribute it to GW personally persecuting them (or failing to read their mind). You can't tell me that upon reading a new release thread you've never thought "that's awesome, maybe a bit pricey, and I'm sure username: So-And-So will be right over to explain exactly why this is the worst thing ever done to anyone by anyone in the history of everything." Now, I'm not saying that username: The-Other-One won't come along to fight him to the bitter end. They're both yo-yo's.
Flashman wrote:Have we all reached a happy place now or shall we go on for another 10 pages?
Nice weiner dogs Frazz
TBone and the Shanker baby! Did I mention I had to chase a fighting rooster out of my house yesterday. I must admit that was not one of the top 500 things I had anticipated doing last night.
and we've had similair discussions in the video games subforum. Perhaps its not really "Things were so much better back in the day" but that you were a kid and everything seems cooler when your a kid. Generally cynacism has an inverse proportion to age....or something like that.
Manchu wrote:@FITZZ: I have to say, it was never as good then as some remember and it's not as bad now as some imagine. If price outsrtips quality in a person's mind they don't need to attribute it to GW personally persecuting them (or failing to read their mind). You can't tell me that upon reading a new release thread you've never thought "that's awesome, maybe a bit pricey, and I'm sure username: So-And-So will be right over to explain exactly why this is the worst thing ever done to anyone by anyone in the history of everything." Now, I'm not saying that username: The-Other-One won't come along to fight him to the bitter end. They're both yo-yo's.
You make some very good points Manchu,and of course GW probably wasn't really as good as I thought it was 12 years ago...but it certainly seemed as though GW cared about it's customers a lot more back then...again,perhaps I'm seeing things through a nostalgic fog.
Sidstyler wrote:Well yeah, the price is stupid, I agree with that. And I can see why that would have some people asking "That's it?".
But without taking price into account, I don't really see why people expected the razorwings to be really interesting models. Judging from the codex entry it was going to be something small and spammable, like nurglings or jungle swarms or rippers, and none of those are all that detailed. I think they look pretty good for what they are.
They just need to cost half as much.
Well to be honest with you I do look at many models just from a sculptors prespective and sometimes I dont even care if proportions are wrong if the concept is deadly cool... In this last batch of GW xenos I must say its abit of a mehhh but the crows to me are something very usefull for many diferent modeling projects... generic is good if usefull.
chromedog wrote:
kronk wrote:His face looks like a baboon's ass.
If you are referring to Kilkrazy, his avatar is technically a Mandrill, not a baboon.
They are related, but not the same.
Baboons don't have the colourful bits on their faces - but both tend to have a red arse - and the females more prominently.
I find your knowledge about female baboon butts quite disturbing
So I have to like everything GW produces or keep my gob shut as well as not play the game cos I'm on the wrong side of the tracks.
I have criticised the models for the simple reason I don't like them.
I have not criticised any one for liking them and expect the gesture to be reciprocated.
There is no conspiracy theory. GW dish out some crap and we are entitled to call it that.
They may not be as bad as people make out sometimes but they ain't cowin perfect either. But now we are also at fault for commending GW if we see something praiseworthy? hmmm
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:So I have to like everything GW produces or keep my gob shut as well as not play the game cos I'm on the wrong side of the tracks.
I have criticised the models for the simple reason I don't like them.
I have not criticised any one for liking them and expect the gesture to be reciprocated.
There is no conspiracy theory. GW dish out some crap and we are entitled to call it that.
They may not be as bad as people make out sometimes but they ain't cowin perfect either. But now we are also at fault for commending GW if we see something praiseworthy? hmmm
Everyone had settled down and was about to enjoy some drinks and pie and you had to run into the room yelling and tip the table over.
I do apologise for pissing on your victuals plastic old fruit.
Skipped the last two pages as I didn't think I was in need of the zoology as I was already aware of the distinction between a baboon's arse and a weiner.
Manchu wrote:But there is also a relaible cadre of "haters" around here who will find something wrong with anything that GW does up until you call them on it. And then, just to be contrary and show how naive you are, they will bring up something they like about GW or say "hey, I love this game but GW hates me."
Yeah, how dare those guys not conform to your stereotype. Who do they think they are, anyway?
I think a lot of you are not getting what the point of criticism is. From where I sit on BD, very few people criticize because they hate GW. A bunch of us don't sit around in a doom fortress, stroking our beards and planning how to ruin GW's next release. We criticize because we know that GW (and actually most model makers in general) could do way better than they are. It's the same reason people criticize restaurants or films or books. Granted, most of us aren't getting paid for doing it yet and maybe most of you don't even want to hear the criticism, but that's what is driving a lot of people I see on BD. Look at what most model makers out there are pushing and compare them to truly exceptional miniatures from companies like Studio McVey and Red Box Games and it's obvious there is a huge gap in quality.
There is nothing wrong with pointing that gap out. There is nothing wrong with showing where GW could do better. Just because you are satisfied with a miniature doesn't mean it's the pinnacle of the sculpting craft, and just because you are willing to pay for it does not mean it must be protected from criticism- nor for that matter does that mean criticism of the miniature applies to you. Trust me- I'm someone who likes eating at Arby's after all.
This is all getting just a bit too much like the console wars for my liking. Buying a product from a company is not a declaration of allegiance with that company. If you're unwilling to tolerate hearing that other people don't like everything GW puts out, I hope you're happy with Razorgors and Chibi-hawks. Because if no one ever says anything critical of GW, they don't have any reason to produce anything better.
JOHIRA wrote:
This is all getting just a bit too much like the console wars for my liking. Buying a product from a company is not a declaration of allegiance with that company.
Yes a bit and my stance on pointless Console wars is I dont care about brands or companies I care about THE games... in wargamming its the same I dont care about the companies but rather about THE miniatures.
A miniature stinker is a stinker and if it has a stupid price tag its a extra stinky load of metal.
Quality wise you currently have a lot of small companies delivering soooooo much better product... if the GW prices raised to well above standart inflation yet their quality is not as good as the small joe minis then we have a problem and people complain.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:So I have to like everything GW produces or keep my gob shut as well as not play the game cos I'm on the wrong side of the tracks.
I have criticised the models for the simple reason I don't like them.
I have not criticised any one for liking them and expect the gesture to be reciprocated.
There is no conspiracy theory. GW dish out some crap and we are entitled to call it that.
They may not be as bad as people make out sometimes but they ain't cowin perfect either. But now we are also at fault for commending GW if we see something praiseworthy? hmmm
Everyone had settled down and was about to enjoy some drinks and pie and you had to run into the room yelling and tip the table over.
Awesome, I am literally wetting myself. I have a mental image of Chibi-Bodge as a little Ninja Cat, leaping in screaming "I HATE PIE....BANZAI!". Seriously WTF did this come from its boardline "Monty Python Surrealism"..
Back on track...I am getting a bit pevv'ed with people trolling and Flaming and generally trying to put the other man down. There must be a place for Free, reasonable speech, evidence based and rational without descending into partisan "I hate Eldar" or "I hate SM" or "I love Orks" also criticism if done well is balanced and caveated and if someone plays devils advocate often I have changed or modified my views to take account of particularly well honed responses to my posts.
I realised something a few days ago, something I should have done along time ago I am going to become a [DCM]. It makes sense, people are not going to pay hard cash for the priviledge of flaming or troliing, it gets you access to some extra content and then we can have an adult (although tongue occassionally in cheek without it turning into a playground fight between two 5 year olds or two baldmen fighting over a combe. ) I have contributed and taken alot from Dakka but now I should make the leap and try to help out.
This thread was pure flame bait from the beginning. OP, you should just stay away from the Internet in general if you get upset reading other peoples opinions, you don't seem to enjoy people with different ideas to your own.
In fact, probably best to pull the phone out of the wall too and lock your doors lol.
My opinion of the new models was lukewarm but generally falls under your description of 'negative'. Thing is, it wasn't negativity that spurred me to post my thought on that thread, just honesty. What do you think happens exactly? That people stay up all nights fir weeks and months frothing at the mouth just dying to hate on new gw minis no matter what lol? Do you not notice how many people like the stuff too? Do you not notice the general consensus that they are pricey and instead of skulking off to a corner for a good cry actually look at the numbers and consider they may be right?
I won't even get started on your you need to be a sculptor to have an opinion on sculpting comment...
All in all, stop being so sensitive and toughen up, or you are absolutely not going to enjoy this or any other forum,,,,,
i dont think its all that negative as much as the same arguments get rehashed a dozen times and they get tiring to have to see. Though seeing half the updates from gw being met with 'this sucks' followed by the inevitable discussion on gw business practice is irritating. There are quite a few people, and mods, who post things that are strictly negative without actually contributing in the thread in any way other than making themselves looking like said baboon's arse. Dakka members have the odd ability to both be easily distracted and get off-topic and the ability to obsessively discuss issues over several threads at the same time. That or I keep clicking the same thread and think its a different one, stranger things have happened to me.
Like joining a forum named dakka that you dont seem to like some mods and quite a few people, and get irritated with half gw news topics and yet manage to have 500 posts under a year? Yeah I can see "strange" there.
Yea that was kinda weird. I wouldn't say I don't like them as a whole, just some of the things they do I find irksome and its kinda the topic so I tossed it in.
Many folks posted thoughtful rebuttals which helped the OP reexamine the issue and realize he was out of line. That's much more productive than being nasty or telling him to get off the site. Doing so just promulgates the perception of negativity that the OP started with.
A sugar cube of sanity in a tea cup full of storm.
After reading a few more posts, I realized that I left something out of my first analysis: the internet tends to make a lot people think they could do any given thing better than the people who actually do that thing. For some people, it's not enough to say reasonable things like "I don't like that sculpt" (more like "that looks like a baboon's ass") or "I really can't afford that" (more like "who the feth do they think they are?") -- they need to justify themselves by claiming some kind of business acumen or insider knowledge. This is what I was referring to as baseless speculation. There are a few people around here who I happen to know run successful businesses related to wargaming or have access to actual figures and -- oddly enough -- they are NEVER the people who go on and on about how "GW is crazy not to do it exactly like I would." This is something more than coincidence, I reckon.
As I get older, I find that I am becoming more willing to pass over the bad and be in awe of the good. I like being as open as possible to the good things. So when a new model is released, I don't look to be the cool guy who points out the flaws. I don't feel "entitled," as some people here do, to complain about the models. What does that even mean? Everyone has a right to their opinion -- do they have a right to report it to everyone else? The answer is no but we allow it here on Dakka, at least when it comes to constantly belittling "faceless corporate giant" GW. We're more protective of our individual users. You can't go into someone's plog and say "this is worthless gak" or, in the case of a commission painter, "you're fething crazy if you expect me to pay for that!" But this same overtly hostile attitude is considered an entitlement (!) when it comes to GW.
Whatever. I'm sure this post will be criticized with the same OTTbs: "So we're not allowed to call GW on doing a bad job? We're supposed to be content to love whatever they do?" Obviously not. Get a fething grip.
Manchu wrote:So when a new model is released, I don't look to be the cool guy who points out the flaws.
That's all well and good, but if you think people are pointing out flaws to be "cool", I think you're reading things that aren't there. Being picky about 28mm mandollies is not a particularly easy route to fortune and groupies.
JOHIRA wrote:But see, I don't criticise models to fit you guys' needs. I do it to fit mine.
I don't understand this attitude. Why bother posting in a thread when you are not interested in adding to what is actually being discussed? Is your opinion truly of such burning, urgent importance to the Dakka community? Either you have a very high opinion of yourself and how immensely witty you are or you're just participating in the culture that OP here was complaining of. I assume it is the latter. For example, I can understand your critique that the fiend lacks motion and using the trollkin as an counterexample is entirely appropriate. But why the attitude? The implication is that people who do not share your aesthetic are inferior. This is not saying that "you are not allowed to not like things" or even "you are not allowed to explain your opinions."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JOHIRA wrote:Being picky about 28mm mandollies is not a particularly easy route to fortune and groupies.
No but that's not the goal. The goal is to set oneself up (foremost in one's own mind) as the authority, the vet, the "grognard."
Awesome, I am literally wetting myself. I have a mental image of Chibi-Bodge as a little Ninja Cat, leaping in screaming "I HATE PIE....BANZAI!". Seriously WTF did this come from its boardline "Monty Python Surrealism"..
If I had anythimg like that sort of dexterity and energy I wouldn't even be on Dakka or pissing about with toy soldiers.
I don't have sufficient hatred of anything let alone pie to behave in such a manner.
Apart from which I am very partial to several slices of pie.
The hyperbole is misguided.
Having already apologised for not bothering to read the 2 pages of off topic silliness, maybe I need to apologise for missing the thread and joining in late.
I humbly beg forgiveness for missing the thread from its glorious inception and my late arrival. I was just responsing to the OP and some of the subsequent comments.
Hope you are not literally wetting yourself mate
I believe adult incontinence pads are available
Whatever. I'm sure this post will be criticized with the same OTTbs: "So we're not allowed to call GW on doing a bad job? We're supposed to be content to love whatever they do?" Obviously not. Get a fething grip.
Hmm
Calling that over the top fething bs indicates you are the chap losing the plot old bean.
How wonderfully magnanimuous of you to see only the gem and not the flaws of a miniature figure.
Pity you can't do the same for fellow members of this forum.
If it is obviious we don't have to be content with a product why are you being so censorious?
It is a forum
people air there grievances and disappointments
They discuss their opinions on the merits of otherwise of hobby products
It's what people do on forums.
Sorry to state the bleeding obvious but in your glowing self eulogy you seem to have forgotten this.
Manchu wrote:Why bother posting in a thread when you are not interested in adding to what is actually being discussed?
I am interested in what's being discussed. That doesn't mean I have to share the same opinions as everyone else who is part of the discussion.
Is your opinion truly of such burning, urgent importance to the Dakka community? Either you have a very high opinion of yourself and how immensely witty you are or you're just participating in the culture that OP here was complaining of. I assume it is the latter.
Then you're definitely reading things into my posts that I never conveyed. There are lots of reasons to post criticism apart from being a narcicist and tearing down GW just for the sake of tearing them down.
It may shock you to hear this, but I don't want GW to collapse. I want them to do well. By delivering good product.
The implication is that people who do not share your aesthetic are inferior.
You've come up with that implication on your own then. I've never said nor implied anything critical of anyone else on Dakka. This is the "Console Wars" mentality I mentioned earlier... we should be able to criticize GW products without people who like that particular product assuming we're criticizing them. Do be honest, it sounds an awful lot like you've decided a bunch of things about what I think just because I've criticized some GW product, which is an odd thing to hear.
You know, I used to absolutely love the previous plastic DE cold ones. The snub-nosed crocodillian ones. It seems like no one else did. I remember practically any time those models came up, they got heaps of criticism for being unimpressive. But I liked them, because they looked more natural than any other cold one GW has produced. Should I have taken offense, that models I liked were made fun of? Of course not. What I liked was different from the crowd. Other people had every right to complain about models they didn't want to buy, just as I had the right to defend them. That's what message boards are all about.
@chibi: Being frustrated that the hyperbole tends to the negative is not being censorious. As for being magnanimous to fellow users, you really have no idea. In your scathing mistatement of my "glowing self eulogy", you missed the example I gave of not allowing people to be as rude to individual users as they are towards GW. Not the first time you've chosen to debate points you've made up ratehr than the ones actually stated.
@JOHIRA: Maybe I am reading into your posts. I see that counterargument a lot. But don't forget: we've both been posting here for a while. I've read a lot of posts from you and others, not just the specific one we're talking about now.
As I predicted "have a better attitude and be polite" has been warped into "everyone must agree with me and we must all fall on our knees before GW." :deep breath: I love the smell of internets in the morning.
Manchu wrote:@chibi: Being frustrated that the hyperbole tends to the negative is not being censorious. As for being magnanimous to fellow users, you really have no idea. In your scathing mistatement of my "glowing self eulogy", you missed the example I gave of not allowing people to be as rude to individual users as they are towards GW. Not the first time you've chosen to debate points you've made up ratehr than the ones actually stated.
@JOHIRA: Maybe I am reading into your posts. I see that counterargument a lot. But don't forget: we've both been posting here for a while. I've read a lot of posts from you and others, not just the specific one we're talking about now.
As I predicted "have a better attitude and be polite" has been warped into "everyone must agree with me and we must all fall on our knees before GW." :deep breath: I love the smell of internets in the morning.
Pot meet kettle. You are doing the same thing just in the opposite direction. You are casting aspersions on everyone who doesn't agree with you.
"they need to justify themselves by claiming some kind of business acumen or insider knowledge. This is what I was referring to as baseless speculation. There are a few people around here who I happen to know run successful businesses related to wargaming or have access to actual figures and -- oddly enough -- they are NEVER the people who go on and on about how "GW is crazy not to do it exactly like I would." This is something more than coincidence, I reckon. "
this isn't an aspersion? Everyone who agrees with you is a reasonable person with experience. everyone who disagrees is a know nothing and using baseless speculation. There is more than just this one example. Maybe you better use some of that reading comprehension on your own writing.
chromedog wrote:I have a capacious memory for meaningless trivia.
Oh God - you too? It drives me nuts. I remember tiny rules details, but my father's Birthday? Nope...
Yep.
Like Oakley have a trademark on "Unobtanium" (came up in a movie trivia night recently) - but only for specific silicon rubber sunglass pieces and only in the US.
asmith wrote:Everyone who agrees with you is a reasonable person with experience. everyone who disagrees is a know nothing and using baseless speculation. There is more than just this one example. Maybe you better use some of that reading comprehension on your own writing.
Wow. Lol, you're the one who needs to go back and read what I wrote. Just start with the part that you yourself quoted: namely, that I take my cue from people with knowledge and experience, i.e., people whose opinions are actually worth paying attention to. I didn't decide that they're reasonable because they agree with me. It's the reverse. My opinion comes from listening to them.
Frazzled- JimBowen38 wrote:I have just read through the comments on the latest Dark Eldar and wow it never fails to amaze me the amount of negativity I see on Dakka so angry I had to post this rant.
Since when has the actual cost of a miniature been linked to its in points cost in the game? Oh and the sculpting critics here is an idea learn to sculpt or at the least wait till you actually see the miniatures before tearing into them photos are often misleading. And if the cost is really crippling your wallet here is another idea get another hobby.
As for the OP - I read the thread from p1 - As you can clearly see, not a negative place at all, just the occasional(and ofttimes prolific) posters that convey the appearance. I have been luking Dakka for a while now, and I agree that the 'haters gunna hate' type attitude is tiresome, but that is actually part of what makes things interesting here...
And I have made some great friends from Dakka - some on the net, some in the real world( I am having a game today with a Dakkanaut!!)
That is well worth it, IMO.
Oh, and if you decide to become a DCM - I guarantee you the threads there are fantastic!!!!
Manchu wrote:@JOHIRA: Maybe I am reading into your posts. I see that counterargument a lot. But don't forget: we've both been posting here for a while. I've read a lot of posts from you and others, not just the specific one we're talking about now.
Well, I can't really help how others post. I also can't help what you read into my posts. But for what it's worth, if I have posted something so ambiguous that you think it attacks people for not having the same aesthetic sense I do, I do apologize.
I propose that the next time you feel like maybe you've been attacked for liking a model I dislike, why not send me a personal message to clarify things? After all, as a mod, you do have the right to push this forum in the tonal direction that the people running it want it to go in. I come from an environment where harsh criticism of things (as opposed to people) is a acceptable and even necessary way to push for improvement in people's work, so frankly I was a bit shocked and baffled by some of the things you've claimed about what you think I'm thinking. In my view of things I've been fairly mild in my criticism and extremely positive toward other Dakka users, especially in the modeling and painting forums. Dakka is after all the site I go to to interact with decent people. So rather than stewing or being angry, why not fire off a nice polite private message to clarify or show me where I've crossed a line?
Manchu, I'm a bit surprised at you bro... Everyone has an opinion, expertise is not, and should not be required to say I like a mini or not... More importantly, I don't think it is fair to imply anyone who says something negative about a sculpt, paint job or price means they are BEING negative. Just as someone liking something does not mean they are BEING positive. Each is simply an opinion, and anyone taking that personally is assigning an emotion to it all by themselves.
I like the beasts. I like the two DE well enough, sculpts are great but I'm a little iffy on the design just on personal preference. I think they are too expensive given the amount you have to buy to make a feasible unit. Now if any of that upsets anyone, or makes them feel like I am bashing gw, being negative or anything more than a simple statement of my thoughts, it's on them. Its just a thought, not an order to others that they must agree.
Longwinded point, opinions on minis and prices should never upset anyone, unless they are preceded or followed by a 'youre an idiot if you disagree'. And even then, it's not the opinion, but the arse-holic intolerant superior tone that is the problem no?
Sometimes people just see things where there isnt any, it happens a lot online were some create a virtual image about someone else... In my experience here JOHIRA has always been a stellar fella and its always enjoyable to read and talk to and doesnt have any strange "bagage" like some do. So Yeah Mod Manchu I do believe your just imagining things.
Edit: Just wanted to add the following:
Manchu wrote:I just read what you posted in the other thread:
JOHIRA wrote:But see, I don't criticise models to fit you guys' needs. I do it to fit mine.
I don't understand this attitude. Why bother posting in a thread when you are not interested in adding to what is actually being discussed? Is your opinion truly of such burning, urgent importance to the Dakka community? Either you have a very high opinion of yourself and how immensely witty you are or you're just participating in the culture that OP here was complaining of. I assume it is the latter. For example, I can understand your critique that the fiend lacks motion and using the trollkin as an counterexample is entirely appropriate. But why the attitude? The implication is that people who do not share your aesthetic are inferior. This is not saying that "you are not allowed to not like things" or even "you are not allowed to explain your opinions.".
I think you jumped on JOHIRA neck for no reason at all... I mean what negative attitude did he express? I only read there "i comment and critique things based on my PERSONAL opinions, reality, wallet, aestetic preferences etc"... HOW can anyone express a personal opinion about something based on what others like? thats really the contrary of having a personal opinion.
Besides JOHIRA opinions are just as urgent as yours or anyone in dakka I dont get the vitrol Manchu.
Were did you read he considers others opinions inferior if they dont share his preferences? I only see you putting his personal opinion down.
Dont want to start arguments here just wanted to show that your post Manchu is making some really weird assumptions and conclusions and this makes me believe that you have already a virtual image created towards JOHIRA... as a old grumpy man ( like myself ) do yourself a favour for dakka sake and dont go there, you should know by now that virtual images are 99% false hehehe See that hot gal on facebook? SHes actually a smelly fat lad
We can reduce any point to meaninglessness. JOHIRA isn't ruining Dakka. The latest kvetching about three or four DE models isn't the only instance of overblown negativism. There is a pervasive attitude of bombastic criticism that I am amazed you guys are refusing to admit it exists. Maybe I see more of it as a mod, having to clean up the mess. The only other explanation is willful blindness. It isn't good enough to say "I don't like that" or even "it does not convey a believable sense of motion." Rather, posters have to say "ugly as a baboon's ass" or similar. It's literally incredible that people who were posting in the DE thread claim this kind of gak doesn't happen on Dakka. Even in this thread, "I disagree" isn't enough -- it had to be "GTFO" even after OP apologized for his comments. Well, OP had a pretty good point.
Manchu wrote:Rather, posters have to say "ugly as a baboon's ass" or similar.
I have never made that criticism, and I don't think any of my criticisms have been of that particular brand. Perhaps part of the problem is you are lumping all negative criticism into one basket. Personally, I don't care for comments like "ugly as a baboon's ass". I may be a bit playful sometimes in how I describe something, but I like to think if someone reads my criticisms they can quickly understand why I don't like something. Just writing something off as ugly isn't very useful as criticism in my opinion, since on the off chance that someone from GW is actually reading the comment, it won't tell them what to fix next time. But then I also think as long as the people who make those sorts of comments are following Dakka's rules, there's nothing wrong with them making those sorts of comments.
Manchu wrote:Maybe I see more of it as a mod, having to clean up the mess.
Now, I am going to be completely serious- even if I'm not ruining Dakka, if any comments I have ever made have created a "mess" that you have had to "clean up", please let me know immediately. Dakka is a website I enjoy a lot and it bothers me to think I may have created problems for the people running it without realizing it. But of course, if I have done wrong, I can't take responsibility without knowing what it is I've done. Send me a P.M.
Oh, and Thanks, NAVARRO. Praise from one of the patron saints of the board is most appreciated.
+1 to Navarro on johira, I am on pretty often, he absolutely doesn't stick out in my mind as a troublemaker or even a boat-rocker at all.
@Manchu
I don't get it man... So are you implying not liking a mini makes you a negative person lol?
That leaves no room at all for the possibility that maybe a mini wasn't that good, or was too expensive in someones view... I dunno dude maybe you need to take a little mod break, and that isn't sarcasm or a shot, but I just find it sad that it sounds as if you have lost a bit of love for this place. Frankly I can understand your apparant frustration since your job requires you look at the worst this place has to offer every day. Still though, with no offense intended, I think your perception/interpretation needs a bit of recalibration.
Ps, the baboon arse comments sound rude, but they are a pretty entertaining yet accurate description og the color choices and proportions of that paint job. It is fantastically painted IMO though lol, but it still looks like the face is a baboon bum. And again, that ISN'T negativity, it's just a comparison! I didn't make a comment of this nature on the thread, but when I read it, I thought hey now it does kinda have that swollen red coloring and had a laugh about it. Did it change my mind that it was extremely well painted? Not at all! Probably because I didn't automatically perceive the comment as a negative...
See mate this is what I dont get... your assumming again and posting again... based on your prespective he actually did something as a user that could have contributed to hipotetical negativism on dakka... I need to tell you this as a net buddy to another... since you consider yourself a old fella that is more concentrated on the positive sides of things ( as you posted earlier) why didn't you took this chance and listen to what some of us are saying and maybe put in prespective your opinion towards him?... I mean I rather see here people more vociferal and picky towars a miniature price than you taking another jab at user that IMHO contributes in a positive way to dakka.
Manchu wrote: The latest kvetching about three or four DE models isn't the only instance of overblown negativism. There is a pervasive attitude of bombastic criticism that I am amazed you guys are refusing to admit it exists. Maybe I see more of it as a mod, having to clean up the mess. The only other explanation is willful blindness. It isn't good enough to say "I don't like that" or even "it does not convey a believable sense of motion." Rather, posters have to say "ugly as a baboon's ass" or similar. It's literally incredible that people who were posting in the DE thread claim this kind of gak doesn't happen on Dakka. Even in this thread, "I disagree" isn't enough -- it had to be "GTFO" even after OP apologized for his comments. Well, OP had a pretty good pointc ..
I read the past topic and I see a good example of dakka best.... some people dislike it and say they dont like... others say they dont like and actually justify why( these are the most usefull and productive posts for me personally) some try to be funny with their opinions, others love the minis, others want to buy them and dont get why people dont like them... and all SO diferent people with diferent behaviours seem to be getting along in a chat... thats what I call a diverse topic! A bit of everything there.
I need to ask this now do you consider my opinion on that topic negative? I mean I kind of breaked down the sculpts the way I see them and tried to justify my preferences... would a rather "i dont like" be more positive?
Please dont try to glue yourself to the OP point because if there was any point on this thread it was formulated in a very poor way to say the least.
I think that your aiming at wrong target and that this increment of complains towards GW is maybe because GW has been raising prices continuously and under a week we see fantasy books a lot more expensive and decent yet not stellar new sculpts at a very harsh price..
Either way the second incarnation of dakka forums ( I was a user of first forum but deleted my account and opened a new one on V2) is sooooooooooooooo much friendlier/ posititve / usefull, fast etc that I think your image of this forum is a bit off. As a mod its a bit sad
Ugh for gods sake he was merely saying that people who think they are being smart with witty criticism are actually being cynical and repetitive. In other words just saying things like "that sucks" and thinking they're being original. Some of you guys seem to feel persecuted because Manchu is a mod but as he and the others have pointed out they are only speaking as a mod when in red. Can we please take down the "Let's fight the power" rhetoric?
IMHO, the people in Dakka , from Admin to the veterans, the people have been friendly and overall civil and professional in their postings.
I enjoy coming to this site. I've been painting and modeling longer than most people that have been alive that make postings to this site, but I have learned so much from those who have given their viewpoints and their ideas to help me and others expand their skills in playing or gaming. I am not embarrassed one bit from learning new modeling techniques, gaming skills, or getting beaten in a game from a teenager. If you can learn from others then you will not stagnate in your mindset.
This is why Dakka Dakka is one of the Premier sites to go to for this hobby that some of us are passionately involved in.
Everyone has an opinion and sometimes we agree to disagree, but at least we can express our postings in a manner that is civil enough to it does not hurt others in the process.
I feel that overall the people in Dakka Dakka have done that.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Ugh for gods sake he was merely saying that people who think they are being smart with witty criticism are actually being cynical and repetitive.
Wow, that's the first paraphrasing of Manchu's point that wasn't a complete strawman.
I agree with him that people tend toward hyperbole, specifically OTT hate toward lots of GW related things. I don't think the guy ever said that you shouldn't be able to state your feelings about models and whatnot though, whether good or bad. It was his opinion that the OP has a point. Given the weirdness in this thread I'm inclined to agree with him once again.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Some of you guys seem to feel persecuted because Manchu is a mod . Can we please take down the "Let's fight the power" rhetoric?
Man with all due respect your conclusions are so off that I dont feel inclined to argument with you... and just want to say... please read again with a fresh pair of eyes.
Dont try to turn a pals chat into a stupid pointless war.
@Adam LongWalker glad you feel like that, I do share your feelings on this and its nice to see new people feeling at home.
Generally speaking I do think some people are confusing diverse opinions, sarcasm, honest opinions with no sugar coating, a shot at humour, immaturity, and a lot of common human behaviour with just plain and simple negativism... I dont feel inclined to share this point of view because I always defend that a diverse forum is a rich one.
Do some people get out of line sometimes? Sure they do and ALL mods do a stellar job... period!
KingCracker wrote: Youd be surprised that not everyone that plays isnt super rich and pisses money in the toilet every morning.
I'm Ricky Bobby, when I wake up in the morning I piss excellence!
In all seriousness, I wouldn't care if GW priced core stuff less than special and rare items as long as the price increase is justified. For example, if I get a unit of skelletons, I would expect that the skelletons would look more "normal", then when I buy a unit of grave guard the extra $3-5 I pay should be evident in the model. Moving to the DEldar, the warriors look cool. The incubi look cooler and are a different material so I would expect to pay more. The raider looks cool, but the ravager looks cooler (and an additional weapon sprue). If I was paying $30 for a tactical squad and they renamed the unit and said, congrats now they are elites and then said pay an extra $10 for it because they were elite, then I'd be ticked off. So far, it looks like GW gives you something for that extra couple of bucks you spend.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Ugh for gods sake he was merely saying that people who think they are being smart with witty criticism are actually being cynical and repetitive. In other words just saying things like "that sucks" and thinking they're being original. Some of you guys seem to feel persecuted because Manchu is a mod but as he and the others have pointed out they are only speaking as a mod when in red. Can we please take down the "Let's fight the power" rhetoric?
I can only assume this was directed at Johira, Navarro and I given the timing of your post? If so, thank you for re-enforcing our point that some people don't actually listen, they just - Step 1 - check to see if you wrote something they agree with or not, and then on to step 2, if it contains anything resembling a criticism call them negative and aggressive and get on a soap box.
No one is looking to 'fight the power'. There is no rhetoric. We all 3 of us love Dakka and if I may be so bold, participate and contribute in positive ways where we can. Nothing any of us said was aimed towards conflict, it was all towards resolution. And again, as was my original point, anyone who takes the message otherwise bears a degree of responsibility for twisting and misinterpreting well intentioned words. In the end, what is truly negative? Giving non-absolute and honest points of view on a sculpt or pricepoint, or people who make conflict out of conversation? I know which one bugs me more...
"Chibihawk", "Pumbagor", and "Goldswords" aren't 'contributing in a positive way'.
It's a perfect example of 'attempts at being "smart" with witty criticism'.
More commonly, it's known as "rhetoric". It's the kind of thing that Glenn Beck would do to spin something he doesn't like into a fearful concept done to incite his listeners/viewers into hating it.
Kanluwen wrote:"Chibihawk", "Pumbagor", and "Goldswords" aren't 'contributing in a positive way'.
It's a perfect example of 'attempts at being "smart" with witty criticism'.
More commonly, it's known as "rhetoric". It's the kind of thing that Glenn Beck would do to spin something he doesn't like into a fearful concept done to incite his listeners/viewers into hating it.
Robot Girlyman. Ultrasmurf. Twilight Marines. Emo Marines. DKoK are Nazis and the term Mary Sue get funnier and witty-er everytime.
We've come to the point where sides are developing and instead of actually finding the common ground in each other's posts we're looking for -- straining to find, it seems -- the points of disagreement. I think this is what MonsterRain referred to as strawmen in this case. Tom, you feel like your points are being twisted around because they haven't been thoroughly understood and to be honest that's exactly how I feel about your, JOHIRA's, and Navarro's responses to my posts. I don't think the emerging "sides" really stand that far apart.
Nor do I bud. The only thing I want to be clear about was that at no point was anything I said meant as an attack on you or anyone else frankly. Just would prefer it if everyone could just enjoy the forum, and find it a shame when nothing more than misinterpretation sours people who have been great contributors.
In the end it's simply just like life right? Different people, different senses of humor, different ways of communicating. I think though since that it is the internet, we have to be even more aware of how easy it is to misinterpret things here than out there. And likewise how much harder it is to resolve an issue once it starts. Afterall, you can't see a sincere look, or a well meaning smile and chuckle along with 'chibihawk'.
Most important to note, most of the few conflicts I've had on this forum have been a direct result of my own inability to properly interpret the meaning behind the words and my jumping to argue because someone disagreed. I'm no Saint lol, but I'm working on it. There is def a learning curve though!
The Dreadnote wrote:Am I the only one that finds the idea of getting angry about people getting angry hilarious?
yep. My brother gets annoyed when he sees people getting annoyed. I point this out and laugh, annoying him further. It's like this thread. If you get negative about other people being neative, you're:
trollin'.
hatin'.
flamin'.
a hypocrit.
or any combination of the above. Personally, I think you're a hypocrit, and need to either accept it and calm down or accept it and stop.
and people will either attempt to calm you down, antagonise the situation by flaming/trolling/hating back, or post comments like this.
Agreed. This is, after all, why there are no Dakka rules against "being negative" -- not only are these comments a matter of opinion and totally on-topic for this forum but there is also a question of interpretation. In the meantime, people are going to get all Comic Book Guy from time to time. "Worst Mini Ever."
Manchu wrote:-Tom, you feel like your points are being twisted around because they haven't been thoroughly understood and to be honest that's exactly how I feel about your, JOHIRA's, and Navarro's responses to my posts. I don't think the emerging "sides" really stand that far apart.
Uff glad you think that way... I believe theres no sides, fight or power in our chat to begin with... thats just concepts introduced by user who I think its reading things that dont exist here.
I only get a bit worried when someone I admire IMO gets frustated or disapointed about something...
I worry about you getting the feeling dakka is negative and I feel bad for johira since hes a nice fella and didnt deserved the stamp of bad boy.
I just hope you get back to see dakka as a diverse nice place with all kinds of people and dont get offtrack by thinking its a negative forum... or even think for a moment that my posts are anything but my poor attempts to help out
Yeah, I apologize to you guys and especially JOHIRA for coming across as singling him out. One of the most frustrating thing about arguing with JOHIRA, NAVARRO, and MajorTom11 is that you guys are among the very best contributors we have! What chance do I stand?
I don't think Manchu ever meant his primary criticism to be of JOHIRA; more just of the general behavior of folks who post something negative seemingly out of reflex and as an excuse to make a joke. Not that I think any of the three of you are in that category.
chibihawk for me is a term of endearment. chibis +1!
I get that it's a joke.
But at the same time, it's a perfect example of 'not really contributing' to a topic.
I feel the same way about whenever people like Kid_Kyoto post those rambling, half-assed anecdotes about "Green Space Marines" in the 40k Background section.
There's a modicum of "srs business" that's supposed to be happening in threads of a certain nature, and making some inane comment doesn't add anything to the discussion at large. It just encourages the thread to go off topic.
The use of slang and shared jokes might not be contributory to every single thread, but they're a sign that the community communicates enough that it has developed that level of discourse. Every group of people have the relentlessly repetitive jokes that aren't really funny. It's just part of being in a group.
OTOH, consistently derailing thread with aggressive posts attacking those things actually, you know, hurts threads. Just sayin.
Manchu wrote:Yeah, I apologize to you guys and especially JOHIRA for coming across as singling him out. One of the most frustrating thing about arguing with JOHIRA, NAVARRO, and MajorTom11 is that you guys are among the very best contributors we have! What chance do I stand?
I think that it's a matter of (mis)interpreting what you wrote, but it's cool to see that you're able to stand up to it.
Manchu wrote:Yeah, I apologize to you guys and especially JOHIRA for coming across as singling him out. One of the most frustrating thing about arguing with JOHIRA, NAVARRO, and MajorTom11 is that you guys are among the very best contributors we have! What chance do I stand?
No apologies are needed and thanks for thinking so good of me, its mutual I really apreciate what people like you do in the shadows to make dakka happen and work so well for all... I think the beauty of dakka is this really, people can have a adult talk and try to understand each other points without the agravations we see on other forums were mods cant control crowds etc.
Probably like Mannahnin said it was just a bad interpertation, either way I just want you pumped up and kicking some negativim ass out of dakka
JimBowen38 wrote:I have just read through the comments on the latest Dark Eldar and wow it never fails to amaze me the amount of negativity I see on Dakka so angry I had to post this rant.
Since when has the actual cost of a miniature been linked to its in points cost in the game? Oh and the sculpting critics here is an idea learn to sculpt or at the least wait till you actually see the miniatures before tearing into them photos are often misleading. And if the cost is really crippling your wallet here is another idea get another hobby.
chibihawk for me is a term of endearment. chibis +1!
I get that it's a joke.
But at the same time, it's a perfect example of 'not really contributing' to a topic.
I feel the same way about whenever people like Kid_Kyoto post those rambling, half-assed anecdotes about "Green Space Marines" in the 40k Background section.
There's a modicum of "srs business" that's supposed to be happening in threads of a certain nature, and making some inane comment doesn't add anything to the discussion at large. It just encourages the thread to go off topic.
I agree with you that a post saying nothing more than "chibihawk" would be pretty useless. At least after the first time. But OTOH, I do think that MOST posts actually do contain more than that. If the poster shares their opinion and thoughts, even if they ALSO include a tired joke, IMO that's cool. As Polonius said, old shared jokes and references are part of the community too.
Proportion is key. I have no issue with posts that are pure humor. Kid_Kyoto's written some hysterical stuff, IMO. If his stuff and imitations were the majority of the content in the Background section, I could see that being a real problem. But AFAIK it's not. K_K also posts a good amount of stuff that shows his genuine love for and interest in the GW hobby and background, including his Retro Reviews.
Some of this comes down to personal taste and perception. I think we all agree that overall this is a functional and very enjoyable place to while away the hours. I think we all get impatient with seeing certain stuff "too often", where what exactly constitutes "too often" will vary from person to person. I think Manchu (and even the OP) have a legitimate point that every so often some kinds of negativity and fighting between posters start to feel a bit relentless, and it's not bad to have a reminder for everyone to try focusing on the positives where you can, and try not to get into a bad habit of being what triggerbaby so vividly described as a "pickled pork turd".
chibihawk for me is a term of endearment. chibis +1!
I get that it's a joke.
But at the same time, it's a perfect example of 'not really contributing' to a topic.
I feel the same way about whenever people like Kid_Kyoto post those rambling, half-assed anecdotes about "Green Space Marines" in the 40k Background section.
There's a modicum of "srs business" that's supposed to be happening in threads of a certain nature, and making some inane comment doesn't add anything to the discussion at large. It just encourages the thread to go off topic.
I agree with you that a post saying nothing more than "chibihawk" would be pretty useless. At least after the first time. But OTOH, I do think that MOST posts actually do contain more than that. If the poster shares their opinion and thoughts, even if they ALSO include a tired joke, IMO that's cool. As Polonius said, old shared jokes and references are part of the community too.
Shared jokes and oblique references are part of a group setting, not necessarily a community. It's very much a case of "that guy" at your FLGS who spouts off 4chan memes like they're going out of style.
Proportion is key. I have no issue with posts that are pure humor. Kid_Kyoto's written some hysterical stuff, IMO. If his stuff and imitations were the majority of the content in the Background section, I could see that being a real problem. But AFAIK it's not. K_K also posts a good amount of stuff that shows his genuine love for and interest in the GW hobby and background, including his Retro Reviews.
Nor do I have problems with posts that are pure humor...but they don't necessarily belong in certain threads/sections.
To use an example: There's a thread going on in 40k background about the "Blood Ravens Primarch".
On the very first page, we have a Kyotoism about Corax being knocked up by Sanguinius.
Kilkrazy wrote:What's the point of complaining about it, then?
To make it known that a moderator is violating the rules of a specific section that is supposedly policed constantly?
Moderators can't read every post on the site. We rely on users to pick up a lot of problems.
And moderators set the tone of discussion on a site. It's inappropriate for Kyoto to be doing that in a section that's supposed to be all about the 'serious discussion'. It gives an idea of acceptability that shouldn't be given, and could lead right back to 40k background getting saturated with those stupid "40k vs XXXXX" threads or "Primarch Rankings!"and whatnot.
Kilkrazy wrote:What's the point of complaining about it, then?
To make it known that a moderator is violating the rules of a specific section that is supposedly policed constantly?
Moderators can't read every post on the site. We rely on users to pick up a lot of problems.
And moderators set the tone of discussion on a site. It's inappropriate for Kyoto to be doing that in a section that's supposed to be all about the 'serious discussion'. It gives an idea of acceptability that shouldn't be given, and could lead right back to 40k background getting saturated with those stupid "40k vs XXXXX" threads or "Primarch Rankings!"and whatnot.
this thread is about dakka on the whole "apparently" being neative- not a thread to b*tch about certain individuals. If you want to talk about kyoto that much, make your own rant thread about it.
Kan does make a reasonable point, albiet in a round about way: flagging a moderators posts often seems pointless.
Obviously the dakka cone of silence would protect mods just as much as other users. Still, it seems meaningless to flag a post only to have that poster respond.
I agree completely. I've made threads before that people just rip into, even if it's just for fun. People hate you if you ask for 1 measly point cost of 1 unit.
Does it do any good to pick on one example, which no-one bothered to complain about when it would have done some good?
No.
If someone has an issue with a particular moderator's response to a complaint, they should seek an opinion from another moderator, and ultimately from webmaster@dakkadakka.com.
Does it do any good to pick on one example, which no-one bothered to complain about when it would have done some good?
No.
If someone has an issue with a particular moderator's response to a complaint, they should seek an opinion from another moderator, and ultimately from webmaster@dakkadakka.com.
Of course moderators can make mistakes. I'm not saying we need to burn him at the stake for cracking a joke in a thread.
What I am, however, saying is that moderators set the tone of a site when it comes to the rules and how they're enforced. Moderators aren't just "one of the guys", even if they're not posting in red and no matter how much they consider themselves as such.
Users see that [MOD] title on a user in a thread cracking wise and intentional of the mod's post or not, things can escalate from there because users might think "Well a mod's doing it, so it's okay!".
It sets a bad example, even if "no one bothered to complain about when it would have done some good". I only just started reading through the thread today and that was the first thing I noticed on the first page, and there's some 5+ posts regarding it throughout the thread.
Does it do any good to pick on one example, which no-one bothered to complain about when it would have done some good?
No.
If someone has an issue with a particular moderator's response to a complaint, they should seek an opinion from another moderator, and ultimately from webmaster@dakkadakka.com.
Of course moderators can make mistakes. I'm not saying we need to burn him at the stake for cracking a joke in a thread.
What I am, however, saying is that moderators set the tone of a site when it comes to the rules and how they're enforced. Moderators aren't just "one of the guys", even if they're not posting in red and no matter how much they consider themselves as such.
Users see that [MOD] title on a user in a thread cracking wise and intentional of the mod's post or not, things can escalate from there because users might think "Well a mod's doing it, so it's okay!".
It sets a bad example, even if "no one bothered to complain about when it would have done some good". I only just started reading through the thread today and that was the first thing I noticed on the first page, and there's some 5+ posts regarding it throughout the thread.
quotes/links?
This thread is OT. This is about the whole of dakka, not just a MOD or all the MODs. Don't get into the blame game here.
Kanluwen wrote:
Users see that [MOD] title on a user in a thread cracking wise and intentional of the mod's post or not, things can escalate from there because users might think "Well a mod's doing it, so it's okay!".
.
Thats a hipotetical situation... things can escalate? yes... but did they? IF it did I bet theres more MODs to contain it... OR maybe its a just a style of posting that you dont like in particular but everyone else is ok with?
All I know is that the overall balance here is good and its set both by mods and users
If there's a question about the way discussions are carried out and what tone
should be set, the official channel for that would be to post it in Nuts and Bolts
(the suggestions forum) or to pm yakface/lego directly.
I used to yellow triangle mods. Look where that got me.
TLDR version, poster asks a question about the Blood Ravens possible primarch/geneseed and on the first page, after some in depth and civil discussion from various pieces of lore, you have a moderator actively try to derail that discussion with gibberish about homosexual primarchs making babies or some such nonsense.
I don't think that example really makes Dakka a negative place in the sense that OP was thinking, but it is kind of true that it sets a tone (ie, people quoting his garbage and hijacking the thread with further attempts at crass humor where there were fans discussing their theories and such).
I facepalmed after reading it and ignored it, like most of his more inane posts, but I'm not really a fan of censorship and can honestly say that the only time I may hit a report button is for spam bots.
<(look an emoticon for you to judge my tone by!!)
ing.
No one's forcing you to buy anything. Just go about your business and be happy for other people who actually like the thing.
