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Post by: Lycaeus Wrex
Over the past few years since I got back into the hobby I have noticed only one trend in the pricing policy that GW works under: upwards. There's a constant and consistent raising of prices across pretty much the entire range of products GW offers, from books to terrain to the miniatures themselves. To those of us already ingratiated into the hobby, this isn't that much of a problem; if you were going to pay £20 for a Tactical Squad box having to pay £22, whilst possibly causing some grumbling, won't be too much of a issue.
The problems really start to arise when you look at the target market that GW is aiming its products at, namely those aged 14-18(ish), with a very high focus upon getting new players into the hobby. This demograph doesn't have its own steady stream of income yet, and is often reliant upon parents and other benefactors to buy models/supplies for them. When a parent looks at the RRP for a Tactical Squad box and then realises that they have to buy 2 of these and Rhinos and a Commander and Terminators etc etc. its fully understandable that they will baulk at the barrier to entry and be financially inclined to deny Jimmy his 40k models and buy him an Xbox game instead.
This is a problem for GW, as they aren't hitting their expected sales targets (exemplified by the recent financial report). To try and correct this, GW raise their prices, hoping to eke out a higher margin of profit per box. This has three effects: a) it reinforces Jimmy's parents that investing into a hobby such as this is simply too expensive b) it raises the barrier to entry even further and c) it punishes long-term customers of GW to such an extent that they either cannot afford GW prices anymore, or cannot justify paying outlandish prices for plastic figures. In all three circumstances GW is losing.
Ultimately, I think GW have just about reached the pinnacle of the prices that can be justifiably charged to hobbyists. There is a plethora of competing products in the market nowadays that weren't around 10-15 years ago, which people will turn to should the product be comparable. If GW continue this aggressive and, frankly, damaging run of price increase after increase after increase, they will simply price themselves out of the market completely and see their sales drop far, far more than the 4% they have experienced thus far.
What do you guys think? Are GW directly damaging their own profits with this business strategy? How do you see them turning around, and recuperating, that sales decrease?
L. Wrex
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Post by: SpankHammer III
To be honest I don't think your to far off the mark. If they lowered their prices I'd probably buy/spend more than I do now just because i'm a sucker for false economy and more likely to buy 3 lots of £10 models than 1 £30 model. I've only been buying my beloved guard for about 18 months and there has been a minimum of 25% price increase on a standard box of cadians (not including the recent VAT hike). There recent pricing has caused me to buy second hand models for the first time. If I was a parent I'm not sure i'd pay for my child 40k hobby, with computer games at least the shops have sales, reward cards and trade in.
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Post by: Big P
Well there are two options to them to counter decreasing sales revenue.
1 - Lower prices to sell larger volume.
2 - Raise prices to maintain cash value from reducing sales.
I imaging they feel they may have reached market saturation point inalot of areas and that price rasing, given the reguarly turnover of new gamers in the 13-16 year old age group means that many dont stay in the hobby long enough to see the price increase. As this group is funded by its parents, new entrants dont know any better.
The problem now is that the parents dont have the income either... Thats what will cause them issues.
I suspect they will close alot more stores, especially those in high value locations (they recently closed one of the two GW stores in Ireland) to decrease the cost base further. Moving away from traditional sculpting and production in low wage economys will also help, as will selling IP rights, to maintain profit margins.
However unless the economys around the world pick up, they will be facing an uphill struggle for a few years.
I dont see them changing much to be honest. If they wanted to grab a massive influx you would have already seen 'sales' or lowering of costs. With metal prices and fuel costs remaining high, and increasing, they face an increasing bottom line that they have little control over. This is why they will reduce shops and staff and raise prices.
I used to work for GW before I went back to uni, quite enjoyed it, have played Warhammer since 1984 and enjoy the backgrounds. But I aint bought anything in over seven years. Even with online discount retailers, I still find it too pricey and lately I dislike alot of the items they make. To me the quality seems to have slipped.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Very hard to say. About twice a year GW have a price increase and there is a storm of protest on sites like Dakka.
Then we all go on buying.
However it seems as if GW's sales have been decreasing gradually for several years, so perhaps they really have hit the limit.
I know when I started Tyranids I bought a few boxes at GW to get started. Then I bought the rest of my stuff from Maelstrom during a sale (about 20% off), or from eBay. Half my army was 50% off retail price. This was all last year when prices were lower.
Now I look back at my six Zoanthropes and suddenly I realise if I was starting Tyranids now, I would need to spend nearly £75 just for those models!!!
It hurts less if you buy a few models each month.
Even so, I wonder if they really have got too expensive.
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Post by: Avatar 720
I stopped buying directly from GW a while ago, save for a few Direct Only models (like the hellcannon that refuses to be put together).
I look back at my armies and realise that buying them now, i'd have spent several hundred pounds more for the same things.
When I got into the hobby, a box of Chaos Marines as they come now was £18; seeing that rise to £23 with no change in quality or contents is off-putting.
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Post by: sexiest_hero
I buy one box from my store to support them. A year. Granted 35 dollars for a unit is only half the cost of a 360 or ps3 game. and I get way more lasting time out of my Army than a 60 video game i'll play for two months. You can find a good starter army on ebay for the price of a video game. when units get to be 60$ us. then i'll stop buying... my one unit a year.
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Post by: ironicsilence
I wonder if the surplus of websites offering GW products at 20-25% off list price is reason for the constant increase. I suspect GW will continue to raise pricing till you stop purchasing from those 3rd party discount sites. GW is in a unique position in that it can increase its pricing to the point where people wont buy direct from them because they know they can still generate sales from 3rd party sites
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Post by: Naicitrom
It's only on rare days I'm at the shop to buy a tin of primer and they have something in I've been lusting after for a while that I'll actually buy something direct from GW.90% of my current army has been bought online at a discount, be it ebay or elsewhere. As much as I like the models, I think, for what they're charging, there sould be a higher level of quality. Dire Avenger arse-tabards, anyone?
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Post by: Pacific
My concern is with the 'single staff' stores, which while saving them expense could actually kill the company.
Let me explain (and first let me say, I'm amazed no-one has raised this issue).
Also, by this comment I am not implying any current employees could be responsible/have been responsible for this, I am just putting forward a hypothetical situation.
Some years ago (actually, quite a few now) I was an employee of GW. I'm not going to say where and when.
There was one guy who, in my mind, should not have been working with children. Now, I need to get something straight with this - I may have been completely wrong, or misread it, and he might have been a straight-down-the-line guy, but when I met him it sent alarm bells ringing. I would not have been comfortable leaving my kids alone in his company, which I think says everything I need to say.
Now he didn't work for the company for much longer AFAIK, so it didn't ever become an issue other than my own private misgivings. But my point is this: Having a 'single staff member' store creates the potential for a situation where, compounded by the companies pretty minimal staff vetting, someone who should not be has got the opportunity to be alone with kids.
When the staff was manned by 3 employees this situation would be much less likely to occur.
Also, considering the flip-side of the coin, having a single staff member opens the door to malicious accusations being made. Without the presence of another adult, just these accusations alone could be enough to destroy the company. The costs, both financially and to the entire ethos of the company as being an acceptable place to bring children, would be destroyed whether the accusation was true or not.
Like I said, I am frankly amazed this isn't an issue which hasn't been raised elsewhere, and that it's an avenue GW has decided to follow.
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Post by: RanTheCid
For the 15 years I've been around the GW hobby, GW has consistently raised prices. IIRC the standard plastic unit box was $20 when it was first released in the late 90's. Some of these same boxes now have half the figures for close to $25.
Given their ability to increase price, the answer to your question is 'no'. GW is not pricing them selves out of the market. People are very willing to pay these prices and will continue to do so.
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Post by: aka_mythos
They control supply and players have shown a relatively inflexible demand. GW's own marketting research shows that the demographic it sells to will sacrifice meals and other recreation to support their purchasing habit with them. They know we're addicts, and like a drug dealer when they know they have you hooked why would they ever charge anything but more. The fact that "if it were cheaper you'd buy more" is actually at the heart of the problem. Its not about buying more, its about the fact that they don't need to "try" to get your business.
"Are they pricing themselves out of the market?"- Yes. Just like how cocaine that got prohibitvely pricey in the 80's and was replaced by crack as the new drug... eventually a cheaper alternative capable of grabbing our attention equally well will come along. More and more tabletop games have sprouted up in the last decade and eventually it will have the right combination of affordability and fun to usurp GW. It may take a while, but Mantic games stands the best chances with its attention to how GW's screwed up guiding its developement and consumer relations.
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Post by: RanTheCid
Pacific wrote:My concern is with the 'single staff' stores, which while saving them expense could actually kill the company.
The single staff concept is such a bad idea. Leaving aside criminal conduct which could be facilitated by a lone employee, there is a list of other issues.
Simple things like - what to do about vacation and sick time. GW has some very high turn over, how does the single staff model train in new employees? Seems that it would lead to decreased ability to sell product due to a general lack of experience in retail (not to mention hobby skills).
I think I've seen reporting on the retail changes detailing how the system is already not working out for GW.
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Post by: Dashofpepper
Kilkrazy wrote:Very hard to say. About twice a year GW have a price increase and there is a storm of protest on sites like Dakka.
Then we all go on buying.
No we don't. Some do, some won't. The question that we can't answer: Will more new people start buying than veteran customers stop buying?
When I first started playing 40k, I spent....a lot of money. I assembled some 3-5,000 points of Tau in a year or less. Fast forward to today: I'm disillusioned with their pricing. My Dark Eldar just had beast units released, and if I were to buy the GW models, and it would cost me $225 to replicate my beast unit with the GW models. Selling 12-15 point models for $15 apiece is ludicrous. Instead, I'll use my box of free hellions to make my beastmasters, my free wargs to make khymerae, etc. I had been looking forward to the release of the Venom model....but not intending to shell out money for them....because I remain antipathic about the cost of a plastic model that I have to assemble and paint myself. I'm *not* in this hobby for the painting bit of it, I'm in it for the gaming. So instead, I've been saving store credit for tournament wins at the various places I frequent so that when they do come out....I can get what I need free (or at the cost of $10 per tournament).
Veteran gamers *don't* all go on buying - GWs prices are ridiculous to me. I'm not a dishonest person, but I can honestly say that I would walk into GW manufacturing plant, walk out with a garbage bag full of models on sprues, and not feel like I'm stealing, rather that I was balancing our relationship a bit.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
No
They are the Porche of all gaming minis in a niche market
If you can't afford the product don't play the game
I will gladly pay whatever GW charges because they are so wonderful and I love my hobby more than life itself.
I think that is how the argument goes.
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Post by: sourclams
RanTheCid wrote:Given their ability to increase price, the answer to your question is 'no'. GW is not pricing them selves out of the market. People are very willing to pay these prices and will continue to do so.
Their inability to maintain sales volume while raising prices would point to the opposite conclusion.
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Post by: Leigen_Zero
IIRC their latest financial statement shows the drop in sales, and someone acknowledges they have been raising prices for far too long.
Who knows, maybe april's WD will have a coupon with 'buy 3 boxes, get cheapest one free!' in it like they used to have (seriously, I can provide photographic evidence that they used to print coupons in WD!)
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Post by: aka_mythos
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:No
They are the Porche of all gaming minis in a niche market
If you can't afford the product don't play the game
I will gladly pay whatever GW charges because they are so wonderful and I love my hobby more than life itself.
I think that is how the argument goes.
To a degree thats fine, if people realize that's what they're signing up for. GW just needs to realize they run the risk of loss of market share by catering only to the high end market. Its the reason Harley Davidson lost market share to the much cheaper Asian made motorcycles. GW may end up becoming a niche within a niche.
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Post by: agnosto
Didn't we already have a rash of these type threads, recently?
To me, the constant price climbs just encourage me to buy alternative, cheaper miniatures and use GW's rules. I don't attend conventions nor participate in tournaments so it's not an issue.
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Post by: Pacific
Although you can't really draw comparisons with motorcycles aka_mythos - although some of the other manufacturers are excellent (and I think in some cases, beating, GW) the fact that Harley Davidson took such a kicking from the Jap machinery (in the same way that the UK industry suffered) was because the latter was produced to a better standard. All well and good supporting your home industry, but its amazing how those perceptions change when you don't have to spend 20 minutes out in the cold in the morning trying to get the thing started or cleaning up a leak
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
With the Orc and Gobbo update the Orc Boyz regiment has gone from this:
This box set contains 19 multi-part plastic Orc Boyz, which can be assembled with spears or choppas and includes options for a Champion, Standard Bearer and Musician.
to this:
This set contains 10 Orc Boyz and 10 25mm Square Closed Bases
For a core unit, rather than round up to 20 in a box they round all the way down to 10.
Jonny Newbie won't know that when his parent's get sold the box. The new players accept the pricing at their entry point as the norm.
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Post by: Lycaeus Wrex
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:No
They are the Porche of all gaming minis in a niche market
If you can't afford the product don't play the game
I will gladly pay whatever GW charges because they are so wonderful and I love my hobby more than life itself.
I think that is how the argument goes.
Not sure if serious. I think the 'if you can't afford it, don't play it' arguement is pretty horrific business sense. For a business to grow they need to be able to sell to the highest market share available, not form an elitist club that unless you earn £Xk p/ annum you are permitted access. The wargaming market simply is not big enough to justify that kind of strategy. If people are fully aware that they are buying into the 'Porsche' of wargaming then fine, but how many 12-18 year olds are aware of this? The parents sure aren't, they just look at the bottom line, realise the investment needed, and persuade their child with an alternative.
GW's response to this is to raise prices, which does nothing but compound the original issue, as well as drive off your loyal customer base due to the 'penny-pinching' attitude that most, if not all, hobbyists associate with such practises. It's a lose-lose for GW, and I can't fully visualise this strategy continuing for much longer.
L. Wrex
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
aka Mythos That is part of the problem and a reason why I get very cynical about GW. I didn't realise what I was signing up for, and presume a lot of people don't either. No one told me about rulebook and armybook updates with the potential obsolescence, not only of books but of units. There was no warning of the price increases. One expects a limited increase due to inflation. But here in the UK over the last ten years inflation has been very low. So new players either get caught up with the pricing or they drop out. But as I said new buyers step in accepting the price as the norm. Someone told me the other day that they stopped playing about 10 years ago, recently saw the current prices and couln't believe how expensive the hobby had become. ps just to clarify Lycaeus, I was being ironic as it may have become apparent from my subsequent posts.
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Post by: Corey85
I live in the state of Wisconsin, we are most likely going to see a new bill go through that will change the benefits for state workers. My wife is a chemistry teacher and is probably going to take a $400.00 pay cut per check.
I have seen the "its a luxury and I'll stop buying when I can't pay my bills" argument, but I never thought that would be me. If the minis were a bit cheaper I wouldn't have to completely stop my mini buying.
I make $11.00 an hour working at the hospital cleaning blood,urine, and feces off of people, which seemed not so bad because I could look forward to buying a box set or two every month. Now I guess I can look forward to just being able to pay my mortgage.
I guess its a good thing I'm such a slow painter, because those half finished armies are going to be getting a lot of attention.
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Post by: Phototoxin
GW serve as an introduction. The stores are great recruitment - for other games. Kids go in , they waste tonnes of money on marnus calgar and his landraider, the slaneshi-like GW revel at this lust and short term profit margin pleasure. Meanwhile father time and cunning lord tzeentch whisper 'our games are better AND cheaper' and then players leave for mantic and warmahordes.
Seriously warmahordes is rising. The only thing GW had going for it was in store gaming but that's for kids, and 4x4 tables make veterans sad. You're better off in your own club and GW don't appeal. Their short term gain plan is failing. I'm glad they see that.
They seriously need to do a 25-50% price drop. It would make the game actually viable to play.
I looked at a nice army - DoC - would cost about £400 to build. I looked at a themed DE army £750 to build (all metal :( )
With games getting BIGGAR! WE NEED MOAR POINTZ! esp with the american tournament scene it is becoming an elitist game. The best wont play - only the richest. And that is sad.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Oh I forgot the...
I don't understand why people complain. GW are a business. They are not a charity and need to make a profit.
standard response, apologies for ommitting this important information.
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Post by: Redbeard
Pacific wrote:Although you can't really draw comparisons with motorcycles aka_mythos - although some of the other manufacturers are excellent (and I think in some cases, beating, GW) the fact that Harley Davidson took such a kicking from the Jap machinery (in the same way that the UK industry suffered) was because the latter was produced to a better standard. All well and good supporting your home industry, but its amazing how those perceptions change when you don't have to spend 20 minutes out in the cold in the morning trying to get the thing started or cleaning up a leak 
Kinda OT, but that was back when H-D was owned by AMC. After the H-D execs bought the company back, in the eighties, those problems went away. I'm on my third Harley and have had no problems with leaks or cold-starting problems. I was riding a month ago in sub-freezing weather with no problems.
OT: I honestly see little difference in the quality of sculpts that GW does, compared with other high-end miniature companies, such as Freebooter, or other high-end mini-gaming companies like Privateer. You can get cheaper minis, but the quality lacks. You can get cheaper game minis, but good luck finding opponents. It's possible that other companies set their prices to the GW standard. It's also possible that GW is charging a reasonable price based on the cost of production (not materials, but paying top-quality sculptors a living wage), and expected demand.
That said, I agree, the prices are high enough that they're driving people away, and a game without players is a dead game. They're competing with cheaper forms of entertainment, and if they're not careful, I could see miniature wargaming going the same was as several other hobbies that were killed off by PCs. We've got a model airplane flying field by my house. 20 years ago, you'd go by on a Saturday and there'd by 20 planes in the air and people hanging around and talking. These days, it's surprising to see more than one or two old men there. Kids aren't picking up model planes anymore, because they've got flying games instead.
If you don't get new blood in, your hobby dies off. And the prices seem mostly to impact the kids. Not a good thing IMO.
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Post by: Leigen_Zero
Phototoxin wrote:Kids go in , they waste tonnes of money on marnus calgar and his landraider, the slaneshi-like GW revel at this lust and short term profit margin pleasure. Meanwhile father time and cunning lord tzeentch whisper 'our games are better AND cheaper' and then players leave for mantic and warmahordes.
Mind if I sig that?
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Post by: Brother SRM
I can't see them raising the prices anymore and still getting sales. I feel that $20 for a blister pack with a single miniature is past the boiling point. I know GW is a business and exists to make money - it seems a lot of people don't understand this concept. I just know that even customers with battered spouse syndrome like us still have a point where we'll say no.
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Post by: Vandil
I purchase only what I have to from GW directly. I can almost always find the same product from another retailer for 30-40% off. There is a huge used market as well.
About the only thing I buy from GW regularly would be paints and after they changed the pots over to the new won't stay open style I'm not buying those anymore either.
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Post by: Manchu
Brother SRM wrote:I just know that even customers with battered spouse syndrome like us still have a point where we'll say no.
You might even say there is a point where we won't be able to say yes. Thanks to internet sales pricing, some of us have been able to ignore the fact that it has already come to this.
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Post by: FITZZ
Manchu wrote:Brother SRM wrote:I just know that even customers with battered spouse syndrome like us still have a point where we'll say no.
You might even say there is a point where we won't be able to say yes. Thanks to internet sales pricing, some of us have been able to ignore the fact that it has already come to this.
I've reached,or at least partialy reached ,that point some time ago,as 90% of my purchases/acquisitions of GW minis come from 3rd party sources/trades,purchasing directly from GW only when no other options (other than not purchasing) remain.
And "not purchasing" becomes more and more of the option I go with,when DE were released,I toyed with the idea of picking some up,as I had at one time owned a DE army,but after some consideration opted against doing so as I can not justify supporting GW any more than on the barest level.
GW may or may not be pricing themselves out of the market...that remains to be seen,but...as for long term costumers,who enjoy doing business with them...they seem to be loosing out in that department.
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Post by: Mastiff
Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Over the past few years since I got back into the hobby I have noticed only one trend in the pricing policy that GW works under: upwards.
L. Wrex
Just to frame the debate a little better, what hobby / product / service is getting cheaper with each passing year?
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Post by: AlexHolker
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I don't understand why people complain. GW are a business. They are not a charity and need to make a profit.
Yes, they do need to make a profit. But it does not follow that they need to keep raising prices like they do to make that profit.
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Post by: mikhaila
You're essentially asking two different questions:
1) Are GW pricing their models high and losing customers? That's essentially the debate and discussion in this thread.
2) Are GW pricing themselves out of the Market. The actual question asked, but not what we talk about.
First, which Market? The market of older GW gamers, newer GW gamers, gamers in general?
Or by Market do we mean "Higher than what competitiors sell similar items for." If it's this one, then I'd have to say that the Market is pretty much keeping up with GW. Privateer and Battlefront have both been raising prices right along with GW. Board games, RPG's, and pretty damn much everything else is going up yearly. I see it on my invoices each week, and my yearly summaries. And it's all going up faster than inflation.
No real answers from me, just trying to clarify the original question.)
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Post by: Samus_aran115
I can see GW saying: "Hey, good news everyone! We lowered the price of the space marine tactical kit a couple dollars because we _______________" in a couple of years. Eventually, even they'll realize they've gone too far, and they'll work their way back to reasonable prices. I hope.
If the Chaos Space marine kit ever hits 45$, I'll stop playing. That's where I draw the line
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Post by: Manchu
I'd be shocked to see a price reduction. Human beings landing on Mars tomorrow would be less surprising.
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Post by: FITZZ
Manchu wrote:I'd be shocked to see a price reduction. Human beings landing on Mars tomorrow would be less surprising.
Martians landing on human beings tomorrow would be less shocking.
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Post by: Manchu
Yes indeed. I think the very most we could expect is longer periods between increases or smaller increases.
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Post by: Pacific
Vandil wrote:I purchase only what I have to from GW directly. I can almost always find the same product from another retailer for 30-40% off. There is a huge used market as well.
About the only thing I buy from GW regularly would be paints and after they changed the pots over to the new won't stay open style I'm not buying those anymore either.
Yes, I'm surprised no one else has mentioned about the new paint pots either - bloody awful, I'm not sure how many fractions of a cent they are saving by not having the 'kink' in the plastic that let it sit open, are things really that borderline? Easy cure is a match stick or thin piece of stick to prop it open, but that was something that you didn't have to worry about before (and just another reason to use a different model range).
Redbeard - Yes, my comment was directed more to the late 60's and 70's, when the 'big 4' (most notably Honda) practically destroyed the British motorbike industry. The other foreign makers have had to up their game considerably since I think, although on pure engineering terms and reliability the Japanese stuff still has the edge.
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Post by: Samus_aran115
I don't know.... maybe GW would have a sense of humour about it  "hey dudes. We realized you guys are always complaining about our prices, so we lowered them. enjoy!"
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Post by: FITZZ
Samus_aran 115 wrote:I don't know.... maybe GW would have a sense of humour about it  "hey dudes. We realized you guys are always complaining about our prices, so we lowered them. enjoy!"
While I appreciate your optimism,I honestly believe your more likely to see the Pope dance the Jitter Bug while wearing a purple top hat across Vatican square on Easter Sunday morning.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Pacific wrote:Like I said, I am frankly amazed this isn't an issue which hasn't been raised elsewhere, and that it's an avenue GW has decided to follow.
Interesting points which I've never seen raised before. We can only assume that no such complaint has ever been made, but putting aside real risks, there's always the possibility of false accusations which are equally damaging to anyone working with children. GWs frequently resemble day care centres, you have to query at what point that staff would have to be vetted to work in the stores.
It must be hell running a single man store though, how do they prevent shop lifting? As soon as you turn your back to help little Jimmy paint his space marine there are others clearing off the shelves. With multiple staff stores it's safer for everyone, staff, kids and the stock on the shelves.
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Post by: Lycaeus Wrex
mikhaila wrote:You're essentially asking two different questions:
1) Are GW pricing their models high and losing customers? That's essentially the debate and discussion in this thread.
2) Are GW pricing themselves out of the Market. The actual question asked, but not what we talk about.
First, which Market? The market of older GW gamers, newer GW gamers, gamers in general?
Those two questions aren't entirely universal. 'Losing customers' is very generic, it can relate to existing customers not coming back, or potential customers not investing, either way it is a customer 'lost'. The market I was referring to was gamers in general, both new and old.
Competitors may well price-match close to, or just below GW, but to offset this the scale of their games is much smaller. How many models do you need for a game of Malifaux? 10-ish? How many models do you need for a 1500 point game of 40k? 50? 60? Over 100 dependant upon the army? So not only are you now charging more than your competitor on a model:model basis, but you demand that your customers buy more models in order to even play the game in the first place.
L. Wrex
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Post by: agnosto
I know this image has been around forever but it needs to come up everytime somebody makes the Porsche of wargamming thing (even in jest)...
Is GW pricing themselves out of the market? As Mikhaila mentioned, not really. The main competitor at the moment is pretty much keeping pace; however, this may change as companies like Mantic get going and expand their lines while remaining well under the GW price point.
I don't need to drive a porsche when something cheaper does the same thing and looks just as good from a distance. As a gamer, I don't need a work of art on the table, I need a bunch of plastic army men that are imagination aids and represent fictional death on a fictional battlefield.
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Post by: Redbeard
Lycaeus Wrex wrote:
Competitors may well price-match close to, or just below GW, but to offset this the scale of their games is much smaller. How many models do you need for a game of Malifaux? 10-ish? How many models do you need for a 1500 point game of 40k? 50? 60? Over 100 dependant upon the army? So not only are you now charging more than your competitor on a model:model basis, but you demand that your customers buy more models in order to even play the game in the first place.
I've seen people play with the starter set just fine. I've seen people enjoy 500 point games, and Adepticon even has a combat patrol tournament lined up. People want to play with more models, no one is forcing them to.
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Post by: agnosto
Mastiff wrote:
Just to frame the debate a little better, what hobby / product / service is getting cheaper with each passing year? 
As a hobby, I dabble in the stock market.... the world kind of hit the reset button a couple of years ago. Citibank @ $1/share, yes please. So yes, things don't necessarily go up, always. Houses right now are an absolute steal in many areas of the U.S; they're building new homes in my area for $50/square foot or less. Apple Barrel paint prices have been pretty stagnant (in my opinion) for years.
The real problem is that GW hasn't been forced to "market adjust" because they're very good at keeping up with recruitment of new players. If that fails, and it just might with reductions in the number of corporate stores and the new 1-man operations, they might be forced to some lean times. That'd be a shame since I own stock but, meh; I bought low enough I'd still make some money if I had to sell.
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Post by: Crom
Most people do not realize that the cost of everything will always go up. Especially with a rate of inflation. Every year a percentage of the dollar is worth less, and every year more money is printed. Even a 3% rate of inflation can make a huge difference in just a 10 year period. GW is maximizing their profits by going plastic and using cheap labor in Asia to produce their product. The new box sets are very nice too, you get so many options, and extra bitz that by the time you build what you paid for, you can practically build even more by piecing all the bits together.
I have taken a 15 year break from gaming. Just got back into it. All my 2nd Ed armies for 40K and 4th Ed fantasy are illegal. Back then they did not do army list structures, you could field a whole army of Terminators if you wanted to, and many people did. So I have had to reinvest some money in some newer models. I buy new from my local store, to support the local gaming store. I will never buy direct from GW, I will always buy from my local gaming store to ensure it gets it's cut and can stay in business. Then I also buy off ebay/craigslist/etc.
I find some single models to be a bit over priced. Like I am not going to buy the New Slaan mage priest model. Mainly because it is like $45 or abuts, and I already own 2 Slaan Mage priest models from back in the day, which you can still use in today's games. However, the new box sets of lizardmen troops are great. I like the models and I like all the bits and pieces, but this is also due to the fact I can use the new bits on the older models I already own as well to convert them and update them too.
I bought a Space Wolves battalion box and converted all my old Space Wolf models and my generic Marines to have all the cool space wolf bits on them now. I tried to figure out the cost per a model versus the old 2 model blister pack business model from back in the day. I paid $80 for 26 miniatures in my boxed set. That is roughly 3.25 per a miniature, if I take out the fact I also got a drop pod. If I take the $85 minus the cost of the drop pod, then divide by 26 the cost per a miniature goes down. Back in the day I would pay $7.50 for 2 models in a blister pack, which is also $3.25 per a miniature. Of course now they are plastic and back then they were pewter. I remember some blister packs were $10 for two models as well. I don't think the cost of certain things has really skyrocketed all that much high, but rather just scaled for inflation.
$60 is the standard price for a new video game these days. I can never really remember every paying less than $40 for a game anyway. I think by the time I was buying my own video games (allowance, summer jobs, etc) I think they were standard pried at $39.99. That would have been back in the early 90s. Now in 2011, 20 years later they have gone up $20. That isn't all that bad.
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Post by: sourclams
Crom wrote:Most people do not realize that the cost of everything will always go up. Especially with a rate of inflation.
This is not actually true. There are deflationary times (for example, 2H2008 thru Q4 2009) when the cost of everything generally went down.
The trend over time is higher, and this is actually healthy, but by any estimate GW prices have outstripped inflation.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Crom wrote:Most people do not realize that the cost of everything will always go up. Especially with a rate of inflation. Every year a percentage of the dollar is worth less, and every year more money is printed. Even a 3% rate of inflation can make a huge difference in just a 10 year period.
I think most people do appreciate that prices do generally increase with time, but GW prices typically rise well above inflation.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Mastiff wrote:Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Over the past few years since I got back into the hobby I have noticed only one trend in the pricing policy that GW works under: upwards.
L. Wrex
Just to frame the debate a little better, what hobby / product / service is getting cheaper with each passing year? 
Electronic goods of all types, most bulk commodities, music, film and TV, air travel, clothes.
There are annual fluctuations but if you do a regression analysis of price points, adjusted for inflation over the past 100 or 50 years, you will see lots of things that get cheaper.
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Post by: aka_mythos
Pacific wrote:Although you can't really draw comparisons with motorcycles aka_mythos - although some of the other manufacturers are excellent (and I think in some cases, beating, GW) the fact that Harley Davidson took such a kicking from the Jap machinery (in the same way that the UK industry suffered) was because the latter was produced to a better standard.
I realize the quality was there and had alot to do with it, but those predominantly Japanese machines were $1000+ cheaper for something effectively the same. Superior product at a cheaper cost... point someone will eventually come along and steal GW's market share.
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Post by: Ma55ter_fett
I have never bought from GW direct, I always wait for a sale or buy from ebay.
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Post by: Vaktathi
I think GW suffers from a demographics targeting problem.
Their current pricing scheme and constant raises make it very hard for new, and especially young, players to enter this hobby. I knew of Warhammer when I was like 7, but could never start until college, and prices on stuff have increased by 15-40% since then.
While it's generally sort of a sore issue for dedicated veteran players, it's also probably not going to drive us out.
However, GW, through their marketing and design efforts, seems to be very actively courting young players. Players who just can't afford the hobby and who, at least in my experiences, really don't make up the core of this hobby, but rather it's the 20 and 30somethings that do. I think the average age of players at my current store is 24-26, and at the big store across town its probably closer to 30.
Of the dozen or so stores/clubs I've played at, I can count the number of players under 18 I've seen on one or two hands, and I've only seen really two or three under 18 players who bought more than a couple boxes and routinely played. Other than that it's all college aged players and older.
So GW keeps targeting a young demographic that can't afford entry and increasing prices, yet most of their playerbase (again, in *my* experience) is significantly older.
I have a feeling if GW targeted said slightly older demographic with their design and marketing efforts instead of the tweens, they may have better success, though again that's simply through my experiences in game stores and clubs.
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Post by: aka_mythos
mikhaila wrote:You're essentially asking two different questions:
1) Are GW pricing their models high and losing customers? That's essentially the debate and discussion in this thread.
2) Are GW pricing themselves out of the Market. The actual question asked, but not what we talk about.
First, which Market? The market of older GW gamers, newer GW gamers, gamers in general?
Or by Market do we mean "Higher than what competitiors sell similar items for." If it's this one, then I'd have to say that the Market is pretty much keeping up with GW. Privateer and Battlefront have both been raising prices right along with GW. Board games, RPG's, and pretty damn much everything else is going up yearly. I see it on my invoices each week, and my yearly summaries. And it's all going up faster than inflation.
No real answers from me, just trying to clarify the original question.)
I think when it comes to the tabletop wargame market, GW is so large that its guiding the market. Other companies hold out bumping up their prices till GW does because they can't afford the market loss in bring their pricing up before GW. The industry has largely shifted away from competitive pricing and moved to peer pricing model; that means while material and production cost contribute to the general pricing the predominant force in setting sales price is a products similarity to another product. Its the notion of "if GW can get so much for "X" so can I" or close to it.
On your point 1)... I think the answer is clearly yes, but the inelastic demand makes it really hard to tell where people drop out of the market. Its a market that people tend to fight tooth and nail to stay in but only when it gets too painful do they fall out.
On question 2)... "are they pricing themselves out of the market?"- I don't believe they've gone so far but each year they edge closer. Rather than look at the pricing of anyone thing, we really have to look at the price of the minimum product to enjoy the hobby and what that costs. There was a time you could play standard sized games for under $100. Now you're lucky to play for under $400. GW's moved from competing with the toys and games you find in Toy's R US to competing with electronics and video game systems. That is a drastic financial shift.
Personally I think 90% of GW's pricing in sound; exacerbation comes mostly from those items that are clearly overpriced, or who's quality is abnormally low, but GW still wants the same amount as if it were their best. Thats a result of GW's category pricing that forces a product that should cost say $9.50 upto $12, just because its the nearest category (just an example without remembering their exact price blocks). I'm fine with the highend pricing of GW's products in general, but it needs to have some low end items as well to soften the entry into the hobby. Battle for Black Reach was an example of that, which unfortunately demanded a price jump because it was too good... but the notion of it was sound. GW just needs an institutionalized means of lessening the blow for people getting into the hobby or starting a new army... an incentive for further investment. Automatically Appended Next Post: Vaktathi wrote:
So GW keeps targeting a young demographic that can't afford entry and increasing prices, yet most of their playerbase (again, in *my* experience) is significantly older.
I have a feeling if GW targeted said slightly older demographic with their design and marketing efforts instead of the tweens, they may have better success, though again that's simply through my experiences in game stores and clubs.
Agreed. When I was 8 or so is when I first bought 40k models... but never really played till I was 13 or so. At that point I remember half the people playing were my age or close to it... with people ranging upwards of that. Now when I play, there tends to be one or two 13 year olds, a hand full of older teens, and a large number of college age players... and that in a more affluent area than I grew up. I would say in general the average age is getting higher, which shows a true disconnect.
Its a bit of GW trying to have it both ways. Kids products at adult prices.
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Post by: oni
MmmHmmm...
I see your argument and my retort is...
I like smurfberries.
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Post by: Griever
Unfortunately, GW's big games really don't have any competitors.
I was hoping Warmahordes would do it, but it's more of a skirmish game. Mantic's Kings of War seems promising.
Unfortunately, GW has the monopoly on large scale science fiction wargaming, 40k is one of a kind.
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Post by: Crom
Howard A Treesong wrote:Crom wrote:Most people do not realize that the cost of everything will always go up. Especially with a rate of inflation. Every year a percentage of the dollar is worth less, and every year more money is printed. Even a 3% rate of inflation can make a huge difference in just a 10 year period.
I think most people do appreciate that prices do generally increase with time, but GW prices typically rise well above inflation.
Yes, and technology actually get cheaper the older it is because it can be mass produced more efficiently. Just look at the release prices of the all the video game consoles, and how the price went down over time. Or even the cost of a computer. In the 1980s it was common to drop $3,000 on a computer, now you can get a basic computer for a few hundred bucks. New technology comes out often enough to keep those prices high though.
I just bought a new HDTV last year. 46" 1080P LED HDTV Samsung and I paid $1500 for it. 2 years ago that same spec TV would have been more like $3,000.
So, in reality now that GW has gone from sculpting all their models to using 3D modeling software and factories to mass produce their plastic products, their overall overhead costs should actually probably go down, but they are also in business to make money.
I just purchased $300 of lizardmen from a local gamer. It was about $750 dollars retail of stuff. If I were to go in and buy all the stuff he sold me today, that is what it would have cost. Now, I already had like a 3,000 point Lizardmen army sitting in my parent's basement from forever ago. So now I have like a 8,000+ point army and will never have to buy a single lizardmen model again.
So, now I am looking at building my next Army and I want to do Ogre Kingdoms, mainly because their models are awesome and that Ogre Ninja model is the awesomest. I also need to add a few things to my 40K armies I have too, but those would be a complete 2,000 point army if I add in a box of basic troops for each of them. Since back in the day when I originally played there were no army lists, so my armies now are sort of illegal (except for my lizards and space wolves). Look at the Ogre models I do find them pretty expensive for what you get. However, they are pretty pricey.
I agree that GW could come down in price and in fact still make profit. However, they may not make more sales. I think that is the biggest factor. Their business model is steady, but it is hard for me to gauge. Do they get that many new customers every year?
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Post by: wildger
As a monopoly, I don't think the GW price is high enough. I would increase more if I am the CEO.
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Post by: brettz123
Kilkrazy wrote:Very hard to say. About twice a year GW have a price increase and there is a storm of protest on sites like Dakka.
Then we all go on buying.
I didn't quote your entire response but the problem is that we do not all go on buying. GW sales volume has fallen every year for some time now. You state this late in your post but I just wanted to point out that people have stopped buying (at least as much as they were before).
While this is incontrovertible I think the more interesting question is why? Is it just the price? Or are we looking at the inevitable reaction to an increase in the quality of competition within the market. Most likely it is a combination of these plus an aging IP that may be losing a little but of steam.
I personally think GW is already pretty far down the wrong road as far as long term health is concerned. Increasing competition is going to keep chipping away at their market share and they have shown no sign of turning things around. They are also going to reap substantial short term profits from the Hobbit license. I include this as a bad thing because it will drastically improve the bottom line for a few years before drying up just like the LOTR license. This may allow GW to think they are turning things around while another competitor actually builds a more relevant market share and allow them to really compete.
Of course everything I have said has been said before and GW is still around so who really knows. In the back of my mind what I really worry about it not GW going out of business but someone buying them up for the IP and not making miniatures anymore.
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Post by: Mr. Burning
Griever wrote:Unfortunately, GW's big games really don't have any competitors.
I was hoping Warmahordes would do it, but it's more of a skirmish game. Mantic's Kings of War seems promising.
Unfortunately, GW has the monopoly on large scale science fiction wargaming, 40k is one of a kind.
Wrong.
GW 'appear' to have the lock on sci-fi wargaming due to the saturation their products have. There are many many many many many different sci-fi wargames available and many different rule-sets that can be adapted for Sci-Fi settings. Same as there are a huge number of sci-fi wargaming minis available from a similar amount of mini companies.
If GW stick around there will be warganing options, if they go...there will still be the same amount of wargaming options.
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Post by: brettz123
Mr. Burning wrote:Griever wrote:Unfortunately, GW's big games really don't have any competitors.
I was hoping Warmahordes would do it, but it's more of a skirmish game. Mantic's Kings of War seems promising.
Unfortunately, GW has the monopoly on large scale science fiction wargaming, 40k is one of a kind.
Wrong.
GW 'appear' to have the lock on sci-fi wargaming due to the saturation their products have. There are many many many many many different sci-fi wargames available and many different rule-sets that can be adapted for Sci-Fi settings. Same as there are a huge number of sci-fi wargaming minis available from a similar amount of mini companies.
I couldn't agree more..... GW are not anything near a monopoly!
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Post by: Crom
Mr. Burning wrote:
Wrong.
GW 'appear' to have the lock on sci-fi wargaming due to the saturation their products have. There are many many many many many different sci-fi wargames available and many different rule-sets that can be adapted for Sci-Fi settings. Same as there are a huge number of sci-fi wargaming minis available from a similar amount of mini companies.
If GW stick around there will be warganing options, if they go...there will still be the same amount of wargaming options.
I dunno, remember Warzone from back in the day? That game was really cool, and it had a very strong rule set. It went away. Though I did hear in like the third edition of the game the developers sort of botched it up, but the first release the game made me completely stop playing 40K when it came out. The whole action points system was really cool, intuitive and I think it made the game more balanced. Where as in GW games a lot of times who gets to go first wins.
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Post by: Backfire
Crom wrote:
Yes, and technology actually get cheaper the older it is because it can be mass produced more efficiently.
No, this is not necessarily true. It is true for certain products where the investments and technological development in production and standardization has been paid for and also because their manufacturing has moved to cheaper labour countries; if TV's were still produced in UK from the scratch, they would be hugely expensive - but it's not true everywhere. I'll take an example I am somewhat familiar with: boats. Lets take a small, standardized (one-design) 27-feet racing yacht. A cost of a new, domestically manufactured boat has increased six-fold since the 1980s. And it's a common complaint amongst the sailing folks: "No point buying that boat new, since they are so hugely expensive nowadays". Inflation accounts only for half of that increase. Sound familiar? Is the rest because boat manufacturers are running a business, or just plain greedy? No, in fact they are barely making the ends. It's because the boat is manufactured domestically and the cost of labour has skyrocketed in last 30 years and whatever advancements in manufacturing efficiency is not enough to cover that increase. Corrected to relative purchasing power the boat today is NOT, in fact, any more costly today than it was in the old days. It just seems that way, since consumers are used to buying more with less in many other areas.
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Post by: cyrax777
Someone mentioned video game prices. Back in the day street fighter 2 for the snes was $80 a chrono trigger was 60 or so. Video games have stayed about the same. GW's problem is there a very niche market. If i was GW I would advertise alot more try to get things like Space hulk or the starter sets in mass market stores like toys are us. Imagine the influx of new blood that would generate if you could find stuff outside of specialty shops. Then they could afford to price drop.
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Post by: Backfire
Crom wrote:Most people do not realize that the cost of everything will always go up. Especially with a rate of inflation. Every year a percentage of the dollar is worth less, and every year more money is printed. Even a 3% rate of inflation can make a huge difference in just a 10 year period. GW is maximizing their profits by going plastic and using cheap labor in Asia to produce their product.
Hmm... AFAIK, it's only some of the accessories (such as paints) which have been sub-contracted to China...main products are still produced in UK (which is one reason why they cost so much).
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Post by: Lord Harrab
perhaps a long term solution is to get some guys or gals like us into the higher ups at GW where they can attempt to infulenese a price drop? I feel that the higher ups don't have the same love of the hobby that we here at dacha do and that if they did, they might be willing to compromise with prices out of pure love of the hobby.
This idea is probably foolish, but i consider myself a die hard fan of Warhammer, always remember your fist and all that, Love the Models, Races, background, everything. I know that if i ever get a job at GW i'll be trying hard to earn a place at the top so i could do this.
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Post by: Crom
Backfire wrote:Crom wrote:Most people do not realize that the cost of everything will always go up. Especially with a rate of inflation. Every year a percentage of the dollar is worth less, and every year more money is printed. Even a 3% rate of inflation can make a huge difference in just a 10 year period. GW is maximizing their profits by going plastic and using cheap labor in Asia to produce their product.
Hmm... AFAIK, it's only some of the accessories (such as paints) which have been sub-contracted to China...main products are still produced in UK (which is one reason why they cost so much).
I am only repeating what I have been told.... I was told they are moving or have moved their manufacturing to Asia.
Here is an interesting article on the economics of GW
http://www.fightingtigersofveda.com/roarseconomics.html
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Post by: cyrax777
Correct me if I am wrong but isnt GW publicly traded? If it is im going to buy some stock. Atleast then our opinions could carry a little weight with them
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Post by: sourclams
GW is a publicly traded equity (ticker GAW) and I would strongly advise against buying their stock. Please, before laying your money on the line discuss your investment goals with a professional.
All well and good to thump our chests and spew opinions on the forums, but that should have 0 impact on how you allocate your capital.
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Post by: Backfire
Crom wrote:
I am only repeating what I have been told.... I was told they are moving or have moved their manufacturing to Asia.
I've never heard that their main manufacturing is/has moved, and one would expect that such a major undertaking would be highly publicized. It is known that some of the accessories (paints, fig cases etc) are now made in China.
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Post by: spaceelf
GW is obviously losing business from both veteran gamers and newbs on account of their high prices. This being said, I do not think that they have priced themselves out of the market. Lots of people still want to buy their products. They also have their own shops at which you can only play their games with their miniatures.
For years there have been cheaper alternatives to GW. Their presence has not put GW under. Many of the main stream GW alternatives have not lasted such as WarZone, Clan Wars, Starship Troopers, and AT 43. However, some alternatives have been very long lived such as BattleTech, Heavy Gear, and historical miniatures.
I would like to know if the people that are turned off by GWs prices turn around and buy other war games, or do they spend the money on something else? It is my suspicion that most people just spend the money on other things. Certainly this would be the case for most newbs.
All of this being said, GW has made some very serious mistakes over the past year or so. The decision use so many miniatures in War of the Ring, all but killed the game system. The focus on large blocks of troops in 8th was also bad, but not quite as disastrous. If they keep going in this direction they could go under. I would have never thought that TSR would go under before Games Workshop.
One side note that relates to the comment about things being a whole lot more expensive, but most of us not noticing it because the prices are kept lower because of cheap foreign labor, war gaming has not been this cheap since the 80s. You can now get plastic 28mm figures very inexpensively. Fifteen years ago very few people played historicals at 28mm scale because of the cost, and now it is much cheaper than it was then.
For those of you who want out of GW but are afraid of wasting your money on figures that will be obsolete, buy historicals. The game systems may change, buy you can always use your figures.
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Post by: agnosto
sourclams wrote:GW is a publicly traded equity (ticker GAW) and I would strongly advise against buying their stock. Please, before laying your money on the line discuss your investment goals with a professional.
All well and good to thump our chests and spew opinions on the forums, but that should have 0 impact on how you allocate your capital.
Naw, they're a "hold" the last time I checked, not to the "sell" recommendation yet.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
cyrax777 wrote:Correct me if I am wrong but isnt GW publicly traded? If it is im going to buy some stock. Atleast then our opinions could carry a little weight with them
It won't carry any weight. How much are you hoping to buy? Some people here havebought stock, acouple even had a fair amount, but it doesn't matter. The bulk of shares are owned by a single holding company and they call all the shots. The opinions of everyone else doesn't factor in. If you buy shares you are wasting your money because they are hardly worth the investment in themselves.
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Post by: chromedog
I know that if they keep having increases on top of charging us twice that of most other places, there will be NO indy stores selling GW product here within 5 years (as it won't move) - we already have had several independents move away from GW stock as a result of most of their former customers wising up and buying from OS.
My club has already lost 5 younger players due to the inflated prices (although admittedly, one of them does race 125cc motorcycles as well).
I've tried to put them onto alternate sources, but the parents are either unwilling to buy 2nd hand (often less work than assembling from new) or allowing the use of their credit card number for foreign stores.
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Post by: carmachu
Kilkrazy wrote:Then we all go on buying.
However it seems as if GW's sales have been decreasing gradually for several years, so perhaps they really have hit the limit.
I know when I started Tyranids I bought a few boxes at GW to get started. Then I bought the rest of my stuff from Maelstrom during a sale (about 20% off), or from eBay. Half my army was 50% off retail price. This was all last year when prices were lower.
Now I look back at my six Zoanthropes and suddenly I realise if I was starting Tyranids now, I would need to spend nearly £75 just for those models!!!
It hurts less if you buy a few models each month.
Even so, I wonder if they really have got too expensive.
Its gotten too expensive. I've spent maybe $350 on my current tyranid army. Of that $150 on an online purchase in a cart- neitehr warstore nor maelstrom, actually cheaper then both, but doesnt exactly have everything. The rest was bought used or traded for(shipping cost). I have seevral thousand points, and moultiple models- HT, hive guard, carnifex, and so on. Not just gaunts and stealers.....
The point is....if I had to start playing and buying NOW.....I would never play. Its too expensive, and not really worth(to be) the price they want to charge. The other point being is I have several thousand points gained, and not a much or any dollars are going to go into GW coffers. Yes we complain, and still play. Doesnt mean we stick money in GW's pocket as a result however.
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Post by: Crom
Backfire wrote:Crom wrote:
I am only repeating what I have been told.... I was told they are moving or have moved their manufacturing to Asia.
I've never heard that their main manufacturing is/has moved, and one would expect that such a major undertaking would be highly publicized. It is known that some of the accessories (paints, fig cases etc) are now made in China.
Yeah sorry I have no proof to back this up. I was just told by a reseller that they are looking at moving their manufacturing to China and that they are probably going to get rid of all blister packs and go to all boxed sets. I have no clue if that was just their speculation or if they had inside information.
I think their current boxed sets are actually decent deals, but their individual boxed vehicles and large models are a bit over priced. I would love a new land raider, but I have an old Rogue Trader one that still works and I don't really feel like dropping $50. If they shifted their manufacturing to Asia, and went all boxed sets and plastics they could maybe drop their prices. Then again they don't have the same competition as other manufactured goods. I can remember about 10 different war miniatures games I have seen over the years come and go.
I really like War Zone and I really liked Legend of the 5 Rings (but that is because I just like Samurai), and both those games had short lives. I think that if GW had some competition maybe they would start to mark down their prices, or at least not mark them up. However, their business model is sort of built for expansion, more models, and so forth.
Ever notice how every edition and codex/army book the models get cheaper in points? I remember back in the day my Lizardmen Army was like 5,000 points with decked out characters, and when I revived it from my parent's basement a few months back and looked at the new army book, I maybe, maybe at best had 2,000 points. My 4,000 point Tyranid army I had back in 95 is probably worth 2000 points now, or close to that. Well, and they also put out a ton of new Nid models, so I really gotta almost completely rebuild that army. So, the prices go up, spiking 5 to 10% every hike and the games themselves allow for more models to be used in a game. I guess you could lower the total point cost of the games, but with the army lists you often want to play certain point range games so you can field your favorite Hero/Lord or special character.
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Post by: sourclams
agnosto wrote:sourclams wrote:GW is a publicly traded equity (ticker GAW) and I would strongly advise against buying their stock. Please, before laying your money on the line discuss your investment goals with a professional.
All well and good to thump our chests and spew opinions on the forums, but that should have 0 impact on how you allocate your capital.
Naw, they're a "hold" the last time I checked, not to the "sell" recommendation yet.
Not to get into the minutiae, but I didn't advise selling short in a speculative bid that their value drops, I advised against buying. I'd also advise selling out of any GW ownership and buying the S&P instead if you want long risk exposure to customer oriented equities. I'd also be willing to buy the S&P and sell GW against it banking on the spread to widen out.
But I'm not an equity analyst, and anyone considering capital allocations should speak with one before acting.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
brettz123 wrote:
I couldn't agree more..... GW are not anything near a monopoly!
GW don't have a true monopoly but they obviously have the monopoly on their own products which is enough. Only they can make Space Marines and their game system is massively dominant. They own a sizable number of the gaming shops in the UK and thus ensure that only their product is allowed on the table. To some extent they can manipulate the demand and control all the supply.
GW is huge, even with the competitors being listed here, GW is the old reliable. As fantasy gaming systems go they are the most accessible with the most players. They have all the shops and anyone looking to sell wargames stuff will look at GW first because they are guaranteed customers. Every other game system is a gamble, for both the shop owner and the gamer. Will they be able to find other gamers, will the game get continued support? I don't think GW have a particularly great product, but they did get established first as the most dominant force by far and they have all the shops. Now all the other games trying to emerge have a huge mountain to climb, they have to rely entirely upon independent stores and push GW products off the shelves. GW may not have a monopoly in the true sense, but they are so big and widespread they do monopolise shop space up and down the country.
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Post by: Requia
Mr. Burning wrote:Griever wrote:Unfortunately, GW's big games really don't have any competitors.
I was hoping Warmahordes would do it, but it's more of a skirmish game. Mantic's Kings of War seems promising.
Unfortunately, GW has the monopoly on large scale science fiction wargaming, 40k is one of a kind.
Wrong.
GW 'appear' to have the lock on sci-fi wargaming due to the saturation their products have. There are many many many many many different sci-fi wargames available and many different rule-sets that can be adapted for Sci-Fi settings. Same as there are a huge number of sci-fi wargaming minis available from a similar amount of mini companies.
If GW stick around there will be warganing options, if they go...there will still be the same amount of wargaming options.
It doesn't count as a viable option if you don't know people who play it. My options were basically heroclix or warhammer (either 40k or Fantasy).
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Post by: Phototoxin
If the paints went to asia how come the price didn't come down?
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Post by: Backfire
Crom wrote:
Ever notice how every edition and codex/army book the models get cheaper in points? I remember back in the day my Lizardmen Army was like 5,000 points with decked out characters, and when I revived it from my parent's basement a few months back and looked at the new army book, I maybe, maybe at best had 2,000 points. My 4,000 point Tyranid army I had back in 95 is probably worth 2000 points now, or close to that. Well, and they also put out a ton of new Nid models, so I really gotta almost completely rebuild that army. So, the prices go up, spiking 5 to 10% every hike and the games themselves allow for more models to be used in a game. I guess you could lower the total point cost of the games, but with the army lists you often want to play certain point range games so you can field your favorite Hero/Lord or special character.
Whereas it would be attractive to think it's all part of the GW's master plan to make us buy more figs, it must be noted on balance that many of the new figs which they release with much pomp in their new codices and army books, have crappy rules and no competive players use them. I can't imagine that Pyrovores or Flash Gits or Vespids made huge profits for GW...
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Post by: carmachu
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Oh I forgot the...
I don't understand why people complain. GW are a business. They are not a charity and need to make a profit.
Walmart is also a business. Want to be which business is doing better?
Yes yes, I know its a differnt business, but the GW way isnt the only way. Hell its not even the best way.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Phototoxin wrote:If the paints went to asia how come the price didn't come down?
Because you have to pay the nasty smell new washes have... Just dont go dipping your brush with your saliva because you could get the chicken flu, I heard thats a problem over asia  ....
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Post by: mikhaila
Lycaeus Wrex wrote:mikhaila wrote:You're essentially asking two different questions:
1) Are GW pricing their models high and losing customers? That's essentially the debate and discussion in this thread.
2) Are GW pricing themselves out of the Market. The actual question asked, but not what we talk about.
First, which Market? The market of older GW gamers, newer GW gamers, gamers in general?
Those two questions aren't entirely universal. 'Losing customers' is very generic, it can relate to existing customers not coming back, or potential customers not investing, either way it is a customer 'lost'. The market I was referring to was gamers in general, both new and old.
Competitors may well price-match close to, or just below GW, but to offset this the scale of their games is much smaller. How many models do you need for a game of Malifaux? 10-ish? How many models do you need for a 1500 point game of 40k? 50? 60? Over 100 dependant upon the army? So not only are you now charging more than your competitor on a model:model basis, but you demand that your customers buy more models in order to even play the game in the first place.
L. Wrex
Most of my Malifaux players have bought 3-6 different gangs and a bunch of blisters to go with them, both books, decks to match each gang, and some then get the Battlefoam bag to pack it all. So while you can play with just 10 models, no one stops there.) Same with Warmahordes, which is a much more front end loaded business plan than GW. Sure, you could buy the starter box. And 10 minutes later when you've been beaten 3 times, you'll be scrambling for some more models.) My average PP customer spends MORE than my average GW customer. Flames of war is quite different from GW. The historical guys sneer at the idea of just a few models, or one army, and buy armloads of FOW models continuously to fill out new force orgs and play new scenarios. It helps that the game plays well and supports a lot of different types of armies.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Hi Carmachu
I was being ironic mate
GW might do the, "stack em high", but can never see them doing the, "sell em cheap" part of the formula!
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Post by: insaniak
agnosto wrote:Didn't we already have a rash of these type threads, recently?
They've been popping up on a regular basis for at least the last 15 years.
Which is interesting in itself, really.
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Post by: Phototoxin
NAVARRO wrote:Phototoxin wrote:If the paints went to asia how come the price didn't come down?
Because you have to pay the nasty smell new washes have... Just dont go dipping your brush with your saliva because you could get the chicken flu, I heard thats a problem over asia  ....
so the money they save on asian manufacture is being reinvested to give us the customer biological agents in our paint. Awesome!
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Post by: Mattlov
I know I buy less GW. I got a couple armies in the last couple years, and picked up most of my Grey Knights second hand.
I need more Kroxigors (the new ones, as the old are awful), but even from discount sites they are too expensive. THAT is the sign your product is too expensive. If there are deep discounters and that price is too high, you are killing your profits.
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Post by: kharn-the-betrayer
I am only 13, I wish my parents would buy me 40k stuff, I have to find the money for it myself.
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Post by: stalkerzero
I don't see it being so much a problem to entrenched gamers already in the hobby. Sure the price hike may cause them to think twice about buying something but the reason they shouldn't be a heavy focus (from a business perspective) is they are customers who will typically spend less money monthly/yearly than new customers.
The cost of entry for the game is a scary thing. Players quit. New players start. Those new players will provide you their business for a while and then quit themselves. You need a pretty steady stream of new players to continue operating.
I started 40k in September. Two of my friends are still kind of stuck at 1000 points because to build much past that (and semi-competitive) will cost them another $300+. That's a tough chunk to swallow when you already just spend $200-300 for your initial army. Sure you can play at 1,000 points for a long while and have fun. But when you want to expand beyond your friendly play group and head to that store it can be like pulling teeth to get vets to play 1,000 points. For them there's more of a point to play a higher point game - they get to use more of their models and they get practice in with army lists and point values that are more common for tournaments.
I really think there needs to be a less expensive way to get a semi-competitive army of each race in 40k to a decent lower point value tournament quantity/quality.
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Post by: Captain Shrike
If GW cant lower prices, then they need to raise quality (I know that has been said. Because other games have MUCH higher detail for the same price.:
2
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Post by: Backfire
stalkerzero wrote:
I really think there needs to be a less expensive way to get a semi-competitive army of each race in 40k to a decent lower point value tournament quantity/quality.
Yes...whilst AoBR is a good deal, it's only for two armies. Some of the Battleforces really ought to be bit more generous, and with better unit selection.
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Post by: severedblue
They won't reduce price; that would devalue their product
but they may halt price rises to allow inflation to catch up
.... on a cold day in hell
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Post by: Crom
kharn-the-betrayer wrote:I am only 13, I wish my parents would buy me 40k stuff, I have to find the money for it myself.
I started playing when I was 11, back in 1991 and I started playing Epic first. One of my neighbors had it and we stayed up late one summer night playing it. I don't think I bought my first models until I was 12, but played it when I was 11. I mowed my lawn, my neighbors lawns, my extended families lawns and did a paper route over the summer. I think 90% of my pay that first summer went to GW. Epic was pretty cheap though compared to 40K and Fantasy.
I started 40k in September. Two of my friends are still kind of stuck at 1000 points because to build much past that (and semi-competitive) will cost them another $300+. That's a tough chunk to swallow when you already just spend $200-300 for your initial army. Sure you can play at 1,000 points for a long while and have fun. But when you want to expand beyond your friendly play group and head to that store it can be like pulling teeth to get vets to play 1,000 points. For them there's more of a point to play a higher point game - they get to use more of their models and they get practice in with army lists and point values that are more common for tournaments.
Depends on how you look at it. From an overall cost of ownership, war gaming is a cheap hobby compared to some. You want to get into video games. Consoles run you $300 and a PC will run you $600, and the PC can scale up to a lot more than that if you got super high end. Then add in software costs, upgrade costs, maintenance costs, etc. You are an audiophile....man, you know how much custom speakers cost? You rebuild cars, well that can cost 10s of thousands.
I think I probably have near $1000 invested in my life time. Including what I bought back in the day and what I just bought recently and recently I spent $400, so the rest of my stuff was $600 total. Of course I did get some stuff as gifts, and I did also trade stuff to get more models. Heck I have an Ork army in 40K only because I own orks from like 4 different boxed sets that I never got rid of or traded over the years. I never once actually purchased an Ork 40K item.
My models sat in my parent's basement for 15 years. 5 months ago I was having a beer with my buddy and asked him if he had his 40k stuff. I had been playing a lot of Starcraft II and it made me want to play 40K. He said maybe, so we both went back to our parent's homes and dug all of our models out of the basement. I ran to the hobby store and bought a copy of 5th edition 40K. We played a game next week and I had only invested money in the new rules. I used all my old models from back in the day. The models don't become obsolete for the most part and you can use them forever basically. Some models do become obsolete like Chaows Dwarves, RIP, and some of my old Rogue Trader stuff.
I have a lot of hobbies, and war gaming is probably the cheapest overall. Now I am older and have a decent job so dropping a few hundred dollars on something every now and then is OK for me. I also live cheap though too, to enable this life style. Looking at the boxed sets, I think they are reasonably priced. Looked at the individual models, like special characters, monsters, tanks and vehicles, and such, I think those are over priced. In fact as far as I can tell, the Rhino is still the same tank it was 15 years ago, except I think you could buy them for $15 back then. Otherwise the new dreadnoughts, predators, and land raiders do definitely look a lot different and a lot cooler.
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Post by: infinite_array
Captain Shrike wrote:If GW cant lower prices, then they need to raise quality (I know that has been said. Because other games have MUCH higher detail for the same price.:
There's also the fact that you'll need 2-3 Marine squads to play a full sized game of 40k, while in Warmachine/Hordes duplicates are really only seen in Solos (Stormsmith Stormcallers with eNemo, for example).
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Post by: CT GAMER
I am 41 years old.
I have been drinking Cocoa Cola since I was a kid. It has steadily risen in price year as time has passed.
Evil empire?
Come to think of it EVERYTHING I like, buy, eat, wear has gotten increasingly more exspensive during my lifetime.
Stange...
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Post by: snurl
Plastic model kits in general have been priced way out of their target markets reach for quite some time now.
Used to be that all the major chain stores that carried toys had model kits as well. The prices for the kits have increased exponentially since the late '70s, far outpacing the rate of inflation.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Coca cola
evil empire?
durr!
Chose the wrong company as an analogy there CT
The problem citing things like that is that everything as gone up in price in the past 40 years.
Cola is still relatively cheap
We are talking about price rises beyond inflation with GW.
Look at the example of the Ork Boyz box I cited earlier.
How many of the products you are talking about have halved in quantity for the same price overnight?
How is that behaviour defensible?
Eviil empire is an overstatement but I sure as heck understand why people feel that way. Automatically Appended Next Post: Do people buy computers soley as gaming platforms?
I got one for other purposes and gaming was an additional use
Have never bought more than a couple of games at full price when I first had the PC. I usually wait for the game to drop down into the discounted racks now.
The "gaming is an inexpensive hobby" argument doesn't really hold a lot of water. It is more about the individual justifying their expenditure to themselves rather than an objective statement of fact.
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Post by: Pacific
So the company is going to move production to asia? If that happens (and a part of me sadly acknowledged this was a foregone conclusion the moment that the company went public) then really that's going to be it for me with this company.
I think like many have been saying on this thread, really it's the inherent contradictions at the heart of the marketing strategy of the company which are the problem.
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Post by: carmachu
CT GAMER wrote:I am 41 years old.
I have been drinking Cocoa Cola since I was a kid. It has steadily risen in price year as time has passed.
Yes, but would you still drink coca cola if it was today $5 a 12 ounce can. Or $10?
Thats the equivilant.
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Post by: Crom
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:...Do people buy computers soley as gaming platforms?
I got one for other purposes and gaming was an additional use
Have never bought more than a couple of games at full price when I first had the PC. I usually wait for the game to drop down into the discounted racks now.
The "gaming is an inexpensive hobby" argument doesn't really hold a lot of water. It is more about the individual justifying their expenditure to themselves rather than an objective statement of fact.
Oh yes. I work in IT for a living and some of the people I have worked with in the past drop $2000 into their rigs for gaming. They over clock and do liquid cooling, solid state drives, SLI or xfire with 2 high end video cards, and so forth. I find it hilarious when they drop 12gig of RAM in their PCs since 99% of games are 32bit applications.
I think the gaming isn't an expensive hobby does hold merit when talking about war gaming. It is something you can shelf and always come back to. There is a lot of socialization with the hobby. Hanging out with friends, playing a game or two, and so forth. There is also the sense of accomplishment. Painting a model and it looks awesome. Doing a sweet conversion, or whatever else like mounting an epic victory from early losses. If you look at total cost versus time spent having fun, it is very cheap compared to some. Also, when you go buy a $60 video game and beat it in 5 days you then trade it in or sell it or whatever. Not many video games have replay value. War gaming has tons of replay value. All my money invested over a large span of time and all my old models still play like the new ones do. I admit that the old second edition plastic space marines look like crap compared to the new models, but hey they still play.
So the company is going to move production to asia? If that happens (and a part of me sadly acknowledged this was a foregone conclusion the moment that the company went public) then really that's going to be it for me with this company.
That is just a rumor I heard, I have no proof. Do not take it as the gospel. However, all the global economy shifts, and their model of getting rid of blisters and going to boxed sets for everything sort of makes me want to believe it.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Personally I wouldn't drink that sugary pisswasser at any price Dandilion and Burdock FTW!!!
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Post by: nels1031
Captain Shrike wrote:If GW cant lower prices, then they need to raise quality (I know that has been said. Because other games have MUCH higher detail for the same price.:
Kind of a poor comparison, I think.
Aside from the space marine kit being over a decade old it still offers a wealth of options and customization that those 5 one pose dawnguard + 5 duplicates can't really touch. Yes, I realize that skilled modeller could make those dawnguard all more unique, but in terms of sheer variety and possibilities straight out of the box, the space marine kit is head and shoulders above. To me that makes the Tac box an ever greater value. Tastes vary of course.
If anything it proves that PP, depsite getting alot of things right (steady release schedule, community support, tighter rules etc.) believes in GWs business model, as their prices are right up there with geedub. I guess PP get a free pass from pricing complaint threads because less models are needed and because they get some important things right. Which is fair, I suppose.
And in terms of raising quality, aside from a few notables (Razorgor, Minotaurs and probably a few others that I can't recall) I'd say damn near all of what GW has released in the past few years is the best they've ever done, in terms of both scuplting quality and customization options.
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Post by: Big P
spaceelf wrote: Fifteen years ago very few people played historicals at 28mm scale because of the cost, and now it is much cheaper than it was then.
Please dont talk balls.
I knew loads of players with 25mm/28mm armies 15 years ago. Dont talk about something you clearly know little of.
The late 80s and 90s were the 'boom' time for 25mm/28mm historical metals.
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Post by: Alphapod
Games Workshop's product (Wargaming Minatures) appear to be generally price inelastic. However, according to Microeconomics (or at least my economics teacher), Price Elasticity changes depending on pricing. As price increases, price elasticity follows suit. So, a box that is price inelastic at $20 a box may become price elastic at $30. Just some food for thought. (/Economics Lecture)
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Post by: cyrax777
sourclams wrote:GW is a publicly traded equity (ticker GAW) and I would strongly advise against buying their stock. Please, before laying your money on the line discuss your investment goals with a professional. All well and good to thump our chests and spew opinions on the forums, but that should have 0 impact on how you allocate your capital.
I only want some because I like there product not as a nest egg.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Then put your money in the product?
Alternatively if you want someone to look after some spare cash with little/no return I would willingly accept it as an interest free loan and guarantee you will be repaid at the end of the term.
Which is a safer investment than just giving it over to GW
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Post by: Mastiff
Big P wrote:spaceelf wrote: Fifteen years ago very few people played historicals at 28mm scale because of the cost, and now it is much cheaper than it was then.
Please dont talk balls.
I knew loads of players with 25mm/28mm armies 15 years ago. Dont talk about something you clearly know little of.
The late 80s and 90s were the 'boom' time for 25mm/28mm historical metals.
As was mentioned earlier in this thread, it's a good idea to check the country of the poster you're disagreeing with. There's differences between what's popular in Europe and North America.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
30 years ago historical 25mm/28mm figures were 20p each and Citadel’s generic fantasy figures were 25p.
25mm historicals weren’t cheap but they weren’t prohibitively expensive. I have two 25mm armies built in the mid to late 80s. Obviously you could buy more armies in 15mm, and they saved space on the tabletop, so a lot of people used 15mm (and still do). I have a number of 15mm armies too. I live in the UK.
Nowadays, historical metal figures are about £1 to £1.50. Citadel 40K metal figures are a minimum of £2.50. GW’s cheapest plastic figures are about £1.20 each. Historical plastic figures are about 35 to 40p each.
I don’t think there is any doubt that GW prices have been rising faster than historical.
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Post by: Goddard
I sometimes think about GW closing up shop, leaving years of work and fun to slowly rot away into obscurity. I don't like to think of that. But conversely, the prices they are charging almost justifies this hypothetical situtation. I wish for a price decrease, but I know that will not happen. I wish for prices to remain as they are, but inflation rolls ever onwards. Is keeping this company alive worth it? I don't know.
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Post by: NAVARRO
mikhaila wrote:Most of my Malifaux players have bought 3-6 different gangs and a bunch of blisters to go with them, both books, decks to match each gang, and some then get the Battlefoam bag to pack it all. So while you can play with just 10 models, no one stops there.) Same with Warmahordes, which is a much more front end loaded business plan than GW. Sure, you could buy the starter box. And 10 minutes later when you've been beaten 3 times, you'll be scrambling for some more models.) My average PP customer spends MORE than my average GW customer..
Its a much more compulsive business model...you can buy the starter for PP and have a bit of fun and then from there with 200 or so euros you have a fully playable fun competitive list... have a bit of fun with it and then start other factions... etc As a client you feel like you are getting what you are paying for with no fuss... you dont need to buy massive armies and invest above 500 euros thats very harsh and you get stuck to one race for years.
THe funny thing is that as a PP client now I feel very motivated to get more product and spend way more than I do with GW.
I think GW business model is dated, needs more spacehulks to keep people interested and above all needs to get to the client level and think on clients... keeping people out of info for years about their race is one way ticket to bail out, that and the constant rising of prices and repackaging stunts etc... it gets annoying to deal with such tactics.
Phototoxin wrote:NAVARRO wrote:Phototoxin wrote:If the paints went to asia how come the price didn't come down?
Because you have to pay the nasty smell new washes have... Just dont go dipping your brush with your saliva because you could get the chicken flu, I heard thats a problem over asia  ....
so the money they save on asian manufacture is being reinvested to give us the customer biological agents in our paint. Awesome!
Aye and biological agents comes with a price tag
CT GAMER wrote:I am 41 years old.
I have been drinking Cocoa Cola since I was a kid. It has steadily risen in price year as time has passed.
Evil empire?
Come to think of it EVERYTHING I like, buy, eat, wear has gotten increasingly more exspensive during my lifetime.
Stange...
Sorry man thats not the most accurate way to see the problem.
GW prices raised much above inflation... way above! While most goods got inflation rearanged ( with some extra pennies in some cases) but not the silly price rises GW has done.
NELS1031 wrote:I guess PP get a free pass from pricing complaint threads because less models are needed and because they get some important things right. Which is fair, I suppose.
Yes PP needs so fewer models and its a very diferent formula... Its like you only have to buy 1 WFB regiment or less and your done with a PP faction... High prices on this formula makes sense and you see that on almost all skirmish level of gamming.
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Post by: Ratius
Possible said within the 4 pages but does it come down to the price of an individual kit vs its points value/use/need within each army?
For example I have a problem paying €26 for a 35 point rhino and if you want to mech your army you conceivably need 3-4 of them. Thats about €100.
However I dont have anywhere near as much of a problem with say buying a 5 man Ork nob squad for €22 since you *most* likely will only need 10 of them and you can tailor them to take up as much or as little points as you need.
Does that make any sense?
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Post by: Grot 6
Compared to even a year or two ago, GW can feth off. They have outpriced themselves out of a market, and all of the handwringing doesn't excude that as fact.
Other companies have come from the sidelines and are now eating GW's lunch.
Our area, who once had a healthy GW player base, have pretty much all took the stance to let GW hang for a while in the wind, until they either take thier head out of thier fourth point of contact, or they can blow. Instead, we have broadened our gaming choices to include everything from FF games, to board games, to a wide variety of other chocies from historicals to fantasy, to skermish to last of the last.... GW. The best thing about it? People pull out some crazy gaming, and others bring out the oldschool, but from that standpoint, the increase of the fun has improved, and not become as one sided in terms of gaming as it was even a year or so ago. Heck even Historicals, with those tight Perry Sculpts are getting seriously positive feedback, and GW is like a bad joke when you bring up the fact that the Perry's even had anything to do with GW.
ALL of us play different stuff, but we are all in agreement that they have taken the piss and have shot themselves in the face over thier last run of "Business" decisions.
Seriously, dude. We are looking in this area at well over 30 bucks for a run of the mill unit of 10 guys that USED to come in a unit of over 16 for 25. 30-50 was top end. I'm now looking at prices over 100 bucks for what on average should be 80 tops. An average squad of basic whatever. Dude,you can't play a game without at least something to put on the table.
Then you see PP doing the same mess. Pfft. Whatever, you go on ahead and do that at your own pearal chief. I've got around 20-30 more other choices if thats your stance. PP, at least actually realize that they even have a fan base. GW wouldn't even pee on you if you were on fire. They act like you as a player are a nusance, and that they are all of that.
One of these days someone can tell them the hard truth of the matter- That players play games and they are the ones that keep games alive.
Combine that with the way in which GW treats thier own stores, by shutting them down and then using that as a profit? WTF thought of that brilliant plan? Then the idea of actually thinking that one and two man stores is a good idea. ( heck, the good idea is that you only can one or two guys, as opposed to the 5 or so that run a normal store.) Then we can talk about thier love hate relationship with private FLGS's, and see how we, as customers, get the nine inch nail, and then people have the brass to tell you that that is inflation,or some other sophism.
Inflation of hot air is all that it is. The economy is tanking out, and this excuse of inflation is a bunch of garbage. Companies like GW are doing great, it's the fan base and the FLGS's that are taking the beating. They are getting it three sides from sideways and are seeing thier profits go to the big fish, while Mom and Pop game store owner are left to hold the bag at the bottom of the ladder with the customer, who is then blaming them as they crank up the price even more( albet trying to make a little profit), while going to the internet for the better priced same thing.
I have well over enough to tide me over, because I saw it coming before the current flood.
GW makes a product for pennies, sells it for pounds, and then brainwashes the masses to justify rape.
If you actually saw a breakdown of cost per production to profit, you'd probibly burn your plastic crack in the town square and then move on to your local game store. It doesn't cost as much as some would have you think.
As of now, GW to me is on pause, while I take a wait and see stance with them. WHILE i wait, Pulp-City, Malfaux, Call of Cthuhlu, FOW, PP, USX, Secrets of the third riech, Reaper's Riech of the Dead, etc, etc, etc... pretty miuch, any other games that I find that have something to offer, and are even cheaper to boot, all get the attention that GW would have gotten if they wouldn't have decided that 35-40 is better then 20 for lesser valued product. Even with a decrease in product for the price, they took the stance that they were the only game in town, and didn't have to work for my money, and that OTHER more interesting games are out there, waiting in the wings, for stupid business practices to eat thier lunch.
Bad thing about this so called "Inflation" is that it is self-inflicted. There is a point that real inflation has now overstepped GW's self described "Porche of the Hobby" to overtake reality.
That point has come.
Cthuhlu. it's whats for dinner.
I can honestly say that skermesh games are the way to go at this time. GW would do well to take a page out of past glories and reissue Necromunda, Mordhiem, Space Hulk, and the rest, and rethink the slow plays that have them drinking the kool-aid to thier current position.
My gameing store used to be over 90% GW. You used to be able to come in, know that this guy played this, and this guy played that, the IG player knew what he knew about the space marines, the eldar, the Nids, IG, the Ork guy knew about orks, and every faction had thier own players. The steady stream of GW had its off shoots, and the store was generally 80-30 in ratio to other gaming. NOW?
Pfft. GW is maybe 10% and quickly taking the piss when the only time now that people want to pull it out is when there is a mega battle, or that there is a tournament, when you now get to see that same army from before. the one you've played time and again.
Other games are much cheaper for the value, players have more choices, and GW is a nice backstory to how things shouldn't go, as opposed to "Hey, I play fantasy, AND 40K, and I love them both for different reasons."
The choices out there for gaming are leaner then they once were, but the quality of gaming has increased dramaticly from when the boom time of the late 80's and early 90's had more sticks to shake.
We now have, because of GW's dirty diaper, more choices and better pricing from OTHER companies, then it is to be les then impressed by craptastic sculpts, and incrased price of craptacular proportions.
And to top this of, my opinion is the mild one of our local area.
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Post by: Crom
I don't really play tournaments, more with friends. We convert non GW models to GW models all the time. Back in the day I would buy the knock off Sci Fi armored guys, an add some Space Marine bits to them, and they almost looked the same. In fact, the model you choose to use, just really needs to be to scale. When 4th edition fantasy came out I started my first Fantasy Army, and since no one in my gaming group played Lizardmen and they were an army in the box set I chose to play them. Then my army book finally came out but there were no models for stegadons, salamanders, or some of the other dinosaur like models. I went out and bought rubber toy dinosaurs. Built a howda out of balsa wood, and added some skinks. I think I probably spent a total of $15 to $20 on it and it was near scale of what a stegadon should be, and it had everything on it. Giant bow and skinks. Everyone got a kick out of my toy dinosaur army I built with my lizards, but at the time GW did not release any models for those particular units in my army at that time.
Of course, tournaments may frown upon such things, but outside of tournaments it doesn't matter. I remember buying cheap discounted WWII tank models as converting them to guard tanks as a kid. I also remember testing out stuff before I bought by using legos and Lincoln logs. If I was going to spent money on a war machine I would test it out a few games first with a lego model I built from spare legos. Then if I liked it, I would purchase it.
Also, once you buy them, they are good. All my 15+ year old space marine models still work, even my 20 year old Rogue Trader ones.
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Post by: sourclams
Grot 6 wrote:Then you see PP doing the same mess. Pfft. Whatever, you go on ahead and do that at your own pearal chief. I've got around 20-30 more other choices if thats your stance.
I really don't see PP doing it. I mean sure, PP models are point-for-point about as much as GW, but they're metal as opposed to plastic and ultimately you only need 1 of each squad, maybe 2.
PP has also got $50 starter boxes.
Ultimately, I think what kills GW versus today's competition is the $50 starter price. I can get into Infinity, Malifaux, WM/Hordes, all for about $50.
GW has nothing even close to a $50 starting cost.
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Post by: Backfire
sourclams wrote: I really don't see PP doing it. I mean sure, PP models are point-for-point about as much as GW, but they're metal as opposed to plastic and ultimately you only need 1 of each squad, maybe 2. PP has also got $50 starter boxes. Ultimately, I think what kills GW versus today's competition is the $50 starter price. I can get into Infinity, Malifaux, WM/Hordes, all for about $50. GW has nothing even close to a $50 starting cost. But maybe all of those competitors have the same thing going in the future? I'm relatively new for the game, but it seems there has been steady growth in scale of games over the years, which I guess makes sense - more people have more figs, and want to use more of them. I know nothing about Warmachines, but I've heard that bit of the same thing has been going on. Maybe 5-10 years from now, that 50 bucks (inflation adjusted...) buys you but a small skirmish force which few people bother playing with anymore...
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Post by: akira5665
At least in Aus, their pricing is a joke.
The Starter box, Blackreach(or whatever) - started here @ $85 per box.
2 years later - $145.
So not only has the box dated itself(Father Time marches on)- they have almost doubled the price.
DOUBLED.....
In Australia, Petrol(unleaded) goes for about $1.35 per litre.
If the petrol companies cited 'Inflation' - and the price went to $2.15 per litre - everyone would freak out!
We'd still drive to work every day though.....
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Post by: nels1031
akira5665 wrote:At least in Aus, their pricing is a joke.
The Starter box, Blackreach(or whatever) - started here @ $85 per box.
2 years later - $145.
So not only has the box dated itself(Father Time marches on)- they have almost doubled the price.
DOUBLED.....
In Australia, Petrol(unleaded) goes for about $1.35 per litre.
If the petrol companies cited 'Inflation' - and the price went to $2.15 per litre - everyone would freak out!
We'd still drive to work every day though.....
How come no one freaks out about this though? My $ 40k car would've been around $120k in Australia because of taxes and fees!?
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/02/18/why-cars-can-cost-3x-as-much-in-australia-despite-currency-parit/
I know its a different industry and all, but if GW is taxed and made to pay any fees for selling their products in Australia, it may explain why their pricing is as ridiculous as your auto industries pricing.
Also if this article is accurate(and its a hightly respected site), the average Aussie makes... $10k more then their American equivalent? For real? If thats true, I may have to rethink my sympathies of you guys having such high prices for your plastic army men. Granted, living costs probably eat away at that nice bonus you get for living on an island prison colony, but still... $10k?
In addition, a commenter on this article explains that the situation(for the auto industry) in Canada is that they are more expensive there then south of the border in the good ole US of A. Not as bad as in Australia, but still more expensive, despite currency parity there as well.
Just goes to show there may be more to GWs pricing then just plain exceedingly stupid greed that so many people insinuate.
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Post by: Crom
A minimal cost in overhead can jump prices up. The cost of coal goes up, so does the cost of electricity. The cost of raw materials goes up 2 cents a pound, well guess what, production costs of making models just went up. What is a 2% increase though? Well, lets say they spend 500k on raw materials to make a years worth of models. 2% of 500k is $10,000. Now add in a 3% cost of energy going up, cost of taxes, shipping, and so forth.
There are a lot of factors to take in when dealing with a company that makes and ships a multi-national product. I am not saying they charge too much, but what I am saying is please lets look at the overall picture here before we jump to conclusions. I think their larger boxed sets are very well priced for what you get, when you calculate cost per a model. I think that the Land Raider Kit, the Fantasy Giant, and other large plastic models probably aren't really worth the retail price.
Then again, something is worth what someone is willing to pay. Lord knows how many times I have had to bust out the overall cost of ownership when jumping into Mac vs PC debates.
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Post by: Inanimate
I'm just grateful for all the ways of getting around the price issue. Thanks to the low GBP in relation to my country's currency, and with the added 15% off RRP that some stores offer, I can get away with kits for less than what they were when I started gaming (around 2001).
If it wasn't for the online retailers, I would not be buying their products anymore. With the current pricing in Sweden, I would not have started playing Warhammer if I discovered it today.
Yes, they are slowly pricing themselves out of the market.
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Post by: insaniak
Captain Shrike wrote:If GW cant lower prices, then they need to raise quality (I know that has been said. Because other games have MUCH higher detail for the same price.:
I'm not sure your example really makes your point. 25% more isn't exactly 'the same price'... and I'm not seeing any particularly outstanding difference in quality between those two sets.
Privateer's quality has always been a little variable, due to the limitations of metal models. Overall, I would put them at about the same level as GW.
Kilkrazy wrote:Nowadays, historical metal figures are about £1 to £1.50. Citadel 40K metal figures are a minimum of £2.50. GW’s cheapest plastic figures are about £1.20 each. Historical plastic figures are about 35 to 40p each.
Although it's worth noting that a lot of those historicals are the same figures that were available 30 years ago...
While a lot of new stuff has come onto the market, the historicals tend to be either sold indefinitely or recycled as moulds change hands ... historical gamers tend to be not as picky about quality, so there's no real reason to update.
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Post by: biccat
Well, since I'm currently paying about $75 a week merely in keeping the spawn clothed and fed, I think GW is a heck of a great deal.
Sure I may only buy 1 or 2 boxes every couple of months, but it's cheap compared to the little one. (or SWMBO's shoe habit).
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Post by: Ratius
Nicely relative biicat
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Post by: Bleednomore
I agree GW needs to make money, but they seem to have become a little too comfortable with their place in the wargaming community. There is real competition out there, I still love 40k but recently have picked up warmahordes. I wanted to build another army but didn't feel like spending another arm and leg to do it considering my daemon army ran close to $1000.
The rule system I think is better and more action packed, model quality is up there and improving with the new plastics which also is bringing the price down. Small point games mean you can easily play multiple armies and not burn through your wallet. It's hard to really justify the price anymore in my opinion.
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Post by: biccat
Ratius wrote:Nicely relative biccat 
Thanks
I can't really gauge how this impacts others, 'cause I don't know how those others spend their cash. When I was in college, instead of going out boozing every weekend, I hung out with friends and bought some models.
Yeah, prices have gone up, but I'm also making a lot more money (compared to none). So from a cost/income ratio, I'm way ahead of the curve.
Spawn notwithstanding.
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Post by: JOHIRA
Crom wrote:Then again, something is worth what someone is willing to pay.
And this is what it all comes down to. I'm not willing to pay. Many other people on this thread are not willing to pay. Judging by GWs financial reports, lots of people all over the world are not willing to pay.
Make of that what you will.
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Post by: Ian Sturrock
I've become a lot more canny with my buying -- I'll buy from eBay; I bought about £250 of tyranid stuff from an online discounter just over a year ago, before the first VAT increase; I bought about £50 of tyranid stuff just before GW's summer price increase; and I've had £20 of dark eldar stuff this year but am contemplating trying to convert most of the rest (beasts, vehicles) from non-GW sources.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
insaniak wrote:Captain Shrike wrote:If GW cant lower prices, then they need to raise quality (I know that has been said. Because other games have MUCH higher detail for the same price.:
I'm not sure your example really makes your point. 25% more isn't exactly 'the same price'... and I'm not seeing any particularly outstanding difference in quality between those two sets. Privateer's quality has always been a little variable, due to the limitations of metal models. Overall, I would put them at about the same level as GW. Kilkrazy wrote:Nowadays, historical metal figures are about £1 to £1.50. Citadel 40K metal figures are a minimum of £2.50. GW’s cheapest plastic figures are about £1.20 each. Historical plastic figures are about 35 to 40p each.
Although it's worth noting that a lot of those historicals are the same figures that were available 30 years ago... While a lot of new stuff has come onto the market, the historicals tend to be either sold indefinitely or recycled as moulds change hands ... historical gamers tend to be not as picky about quality, so there's no real reason to update. RAZORGOR!! Some are and others aren't. Wargames Foundry and Perry Brothers are good examples (both GW spin-offs, interestingly) where quality is excellent while pricing is competitive. (Some of the old historicals are beautiful models even by modern standards. It depends who sculpted them.) Anyway, we are talking about raw price, not price/quality tradeoff. Another part of the problem with GW is that you have to spend such a lot of money on books.
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Post by: Big P
insaniak wrote:
historical gamers tend to be not as picky about quality, so there's no real reason to update.
So you dont know any historical gamers then or indeed the historical companies? The Perrys release huge numbers of new models as do all companies. Moulds are also consistently remade and replaced.
Please dont talk crap, I have been playing both historicals and GW games since 1984 there have been high levels of quality in both since then. Alot of Historical gamers are way more picky than any GW gamers... I have seen arguements over whether Greek 6th century BC figures have the right style sandals sculpted on... Quality remains paramount to the majority of gamers... Its why the Perry twins are consistently seen as the standard by which every other sculpter is marked.
If you think that the Perry twins had no quality 30 years ago, then you clearly aint really qualified to comment.
Of course, there is a section on gamers, both historical and fantasy/sci-fi, for whom quality is no issue... hence why Wargames Factory managed to sell something.
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Post by: insaniak
Big P, if you can't respond to somebody having a differing opinion to your own in a civil fashion, I would recommend that you think twice before posting further.
I never said that the Perrys were poor quality, nor that there were no quality historical miniatures 30 years ago. Nor did I make any comment on the pickiness of historical gamers where historical accuracy is concerned.
Obsessing over whether or not a model has historically correct equipment, and obsessing over whether or not the miniature is brilliantly sculpted are not the same thing.
Yes, some historical companies produce brilliant product. A lot don't... and the models sell anyway, if they're cheap. The obvious conclusion (that historical gamers don't care as much about quality of sculpting) is also borne out by comments I've come across from various sculptors over the years about how hard it is to make money sculpting historicals, due to most of the historical miniatures companies being far more concerned with price than about quality.
That is changing, pushed no doubt at least in part by the work of people like the Perrys... But there's still a long way to go.
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Post by: Mr Hyena
The problem I have...is the Competitors offer absolutely zero for me. I can't find a competitor that offers cheaper units that could be stand ins for an Inquisition army (or of the Ordo Militants) Nothing the other companies do looks quite grimdark enough (or of a reasonable quality) to fit into an Inquisitorial Retinue or as an Inquisitor.
Since Competitors offer nothing for me; and no conversion bits that actually fit in with the theme...why spend money on them?
Thats probably why I'll stick with GW's models.
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Post by: NAVARRO
As far as historicals are concerned I just wanted to add that the modelism branch of historicals is many years in front of fantasy... I know its a diferent beast from gamming but historical based painting comps are a new universe of quality... the slayer swords there would probably look like amateur stuff  So yeah theres a much bigger attention to quality there since its all much more based on realism etc.
I think its hard to separate things with clear boundries and conotations since theres many types of diferent persons on each Hobbies.
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Post by: ChocolateGork
I reckon they will crash and burn if they don't lower the prices in a few years.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mr Hyena wrote:The problem I have...is the Competitors offer absolutely zero for me. I can't find a competitor that offers cheaper units that could be stand ins for an Inquisition army (or of the Ordo Militants) Nothing the other companies do looks quite grimdark enough (or of a reasonable quality) to fit into an Inquisitorial Retinue or as an Inquisitor.
Since Competitors offer nothing for me; and no conversion bits that actually fit in with the theme...why spend money on them?
Thats probably why I'll stick with GW's models.
+1
I haven't been able to find any alternatives for a futuristic wargame i can play instead. Or an alternate model line i can buy.
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Post by: malfred
NAVARRO wrote:As far as historicals are concerned I just wanted to add that the modelism branch of historicals is many years in front of fantasy... I know its a diferent beast from gamming but historical based painting comps are a new universe of quality... the slayer swords there would probably look like amateur stuff  So yeah theres a much bigger attention to quality there since its all much more based on realism etc.
I think its hard to separate things with clear boundries and conotations since theres many types of diferent persons on each Hobbies.
This will vary from community to community. I've seen really fantastic historical
armies, and I've seen some of the pics of stuff posted in Miniatures Wargaming
Magazine. People on dakka can paint better than some of that that, but I'm sure
there are historical hobbyists who blow us all away.
I just don't think there's necessarily a larger gap between them and us.
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Post by: TNM
Either they hate their customers or hate makin money so they raise their prices so people won't buy from them.
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Post by: NAVARRO
malfred wrote:NAVARRO wrote:As far as historicals are concerned I just wanted to add that the modelism branch of historicals is many years in front of fantasy... I know its a diferent beast from gamming but historical based painting comps are a new universe of quality... the slayer swords there would probably look like amateur stuff  So yeah theres a much bigger attention to quality there since its all much more based on realism etc.
I think its hard to separate things with clear boundries and conotations since theres many types of diferent persons on each Hobbies.
This will vary from community to community. I've seen really fantastic historical
armies, and I've seen some of the pics of stuff posted in Miniatures Wargaming
Magazine. People on dakka can paint better than some of that that, but I'm sure
there are historical hobbyists who blow us all away.
I just don't think there's necessarily a larger gap between them and us.
Thinking of it I think your right, I mostly seen european historical expos coverages... but they have been painting some techniques for much longer than us... pigments for one.
I think that the tendencie is that quality is not exclusive to just one side of this such big hobby and a good formula on one side will be assimilated by another ( see how people now are all using pigments on fantasy).
Maybe the gap is not as big as before and is closing... or maybe there never was a gap in your region to begin with... Point is Historical people also have high quality standarts.
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Post by: Roleplayer
Captain Shrike wrote:If GW cant lower prices, then they need to raise quality (I know that has been said. Because other games have MUCH higher detail for the same price.:
Why do you choose such an old GW kit and line it up against a new PP kit?
Compare that PP squad with say, the Sanguinary guard kit and tell me the detail isnt there for GW
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Post by: Gymnogyps
I've noted an interesting dynamic at GW. Target age child, about 13 years old, male:female about 70:30, sees the minis and drags mom or dad into the store. A demo game is run, kid is in love. You can see it. Then the price discussion begins. You can see mom's/dad's thoughts clearly on their face: A starter set is $100, and you need to by the paint, glue, tools, too? WTF? You want HOW MUCH for TOYS????
Mom or dad have no concept of sculpting skill, GW economies, mold costs, or any other of the sorry excuses we hear all the time. The product simply doesn't justify the cost. So mom or dad walk the kid out, promising yes, they'll come back, but they never do.
The most heartbreaking example was a little girl who came in and went through this whole scenario. After she and Dad left, she came back and said, "My dad gave me $10! What can I get???" Nothing. Not a single thing. She was told she could put the $10 on a gift card and save up. She refused because it is silly. If she were already a fan, sure, it would make sense. But not knowing anything about it, they look like toys. Why save up for these toys when you can get a bag of army men or plastic dinosaurs for $3-$5?
The whole pricing thing makes sense for people who care enough to learn what the product is. It makes no sense at all to the random folks on the street. Because they are JUST TOYS.
Even hyper rich upper class parents don't like frivolously wasting money on overpriced crap toys. They're not even painted? WTF? One parent had this discussion with me the other day. And I tried to talk about the time spent modeling, painting, playing- not relevant. They also walked out, not buying anything. The response: that is too much for a toy.
This disconnect with the market is the problem I see. Either GW products are toys to be marketed to children, in which case they must be priced to compete with all the mass produced crap out there. OR, they are specialty products for the dedicated hobbiest. Like model trains, scuba diving, paintball, etc. If they are the first, then sure, turn and burn away. If they are the second, then the turn and burn business model doesn't make sense. The second model (lifelong hobby) requires expecting your customers to notice that the exact same Army Book /Codex that has been sitting on the shelf for years went from $22, to $25, to $29 in a couple of years. What customer wouldn't feel insulted by that, and balk at spending?
So yes, I think something is broken in the GW business model, at least here in the States. The customer is not spoiled little Jimmy with the brainless '50's housewife mom who has no concept of money. Most of the customers are college age or older, and most stay around for years. Until they can't justify the cost anymore or otherwise lose interest.
Note: this is my observation of how random folks off the street view GW, not intended to bash any of us vets. We all have different issues than the stranger off the street. We understand what is trying to be communicated by "GW is the Porsche of mini-wargaming." To random folks off the street, GW is overpriced crap. Trying to say, "hey its like a Porsche" is irrelevant to people who don't care about that sort of thing.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
malfred wrote:NAVARRO wrote:As far as historicals are concerned I just wanted to add that the modelism branch of historicals is many years in front of fantasy... I know its a diferent beast from gamming but historical based painting comps are a new universe of quality... the slayer swords there would probably look like amateur stuff  So yeah theres a much bigger attention to quality there since its all much more based on realism etc.
I think its hard to separate things with clear boundries and conotations since theres many types of diferent persons on each Hobbies.
This will vary from community to community. I've seen really fantastic historical
armies, and I've seen some of the pics of stuff posted in Miniatures Wargaming
Magazine. People on dakka can paint better than some of that that, but I'm sure
there are historical hobbyists who blow us all away.
I just don't think there's necessarily a larger gap between them and us.
It's a bit sad to talk about them and us.
There is a limit to just how well anyone can paint a 28mm figure, no matter what their skill level.
40K is nice for painting because the models are larger than that scale.
Historicals offers 54mm for a small range of armies but 25/28mm and 15mm are the most common scales.
Wargamers aren't necessarily interested in the quality of each model. They need to get large forces out on the tabletop quickly.
Yakface's and my Tyranids are a good contrast in that respect. His models are nicer than mine, and he needs weeks per unit because of the time it takes to do the detail. I got a 2,000+ point force converted, painted and in action with four months work, by using speed techniques.
Navarro may be thinking of the long time tradition of military modelling, which is related to wargaming but not the same thing. A lot of military modellers work on 1/35th (54mm) as the smallest scale they use. 75mm and 120mm scale models are available which allow for fantastic detail.
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Post by: spaceelf
I just don't think that the Porsche defence will work for GW. The reason is that many of their products are definitely not Porches, the Razorgor picture from a few pages back drove the point home. Porsche would not put their name on a substandard automobile. Evidently, GW has no problem with putting its name on substandard miniatures. Veterans know the difference between good and bad minis and thus GW's propaganda does not wash with them. Newbs don't know the difference. However, they would just as well buy a bag of army men because it is much cheaper.
The problem is more acute for gamers than collectors/painters, as the former are 'forced' to use the terrible miniatures because of the rules, while the latter can cherry pick the best models. Unfortunately for GW, the hard core gamers don't really care what they are playing with, so if there is a cheaper alternative they will use it. A good example are the proxies of Dark Eldar Warp Beasts that everyone is planning on using. Many other gamers are using unit filler and other means of saving cash.
One of the recent comments made was that there was no substitute for GWs grim dark stuff. I think that this, along with the established player base is what is keeping GW afloat. I agree with you, that I have not seen suitable Inquisitorial model substitutes. On the other hand there are other grim dark settings, such as Malifaux, it is just not sci fi. Personally I find plenty of grim darkness in historical settings, do you think that GW created Gothic stuff themselves?
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Post by: thebaroness
Gymnogyps wrote:I've noted an interesting dynamic at GW. Target age child....
You pretty much sum up my observations from the last ten years. I don't get the increasing focus on tweens when the pricing structure remains as-is. There seems to be some confusion at GW because companies like PP are actually eking out some market share, and GW is so used to being the big man on campus. I'm sure they'll straighten up their house, as I really do love the company and the product, I'm just hoping that it will happen sooner rather than later.
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Post by: gorgon
IMO GW's problem isn't prices per se. There are many more expensive hobbies. The problem is perceived value. The new Ravener kit drove this home for me. You figure two of those kits -- nice models but smallish, and completely ordinary sculpts compared to the recent DE, etc. -- will run you almost $100 with tax.
I'm just not feeling $100 in value from those particular six plastic miniatures.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Gymnogyps wrote:Target age child, about 13 years old, male:female about 70:30...
Really? That's seems rather optimistic, GW do very little to encourage female customers. They don't produce figures that attempt to appeal to women, like how about some decent female figures and creating a positive atmosphere in the stores where women are not oggled by customers or patronised by staff.
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Post by: Laughing Man
Roleplayer wrote:Captain Shrike wrote:If GW cant lower prices, then they need to raise quality (I know that has been said. Because other games have MUCH higher detail for the same price.:
Why do you choose such an old GW kit and line it up against a new PP kit?
Compare that PP squad with say, the Sanguinary guard kit and tell me the detail isnt there for GW 
For nearly $20 more than the Invictors.
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Post by: agnosto
Roleplayer wrote:
Compare that PP squad with say, the Sanguinary guard kit and tell me the detail isnt there for GW 
Yeah, those nipples stand right our there and say "hi", don't they?
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Post by: Roleplayer
agnosto wrote:Roleplayer wrote:
Compare that PP squad with say, the Sanguinary guard kit and tell me the detail isnt there for GW 
Yeah, those nipples stand right our there and say "hi", don't they? 
I love that detail on the sanguinary guard kit. Conjuring images of the types of armor the ancient greeks/romans used to use. It is very grim/gothic/artsy sxtyle to me, fitting perfectly in with the Blood Angels.
Just because you personally dont enjoy a particular style choice, doesnt make the minis uncool.
But I dont see why you even got to compare the two, play what you like. I tried PP for example, bought a bunch of Khador. The models were pretty cool, but I really hated the PP rules system and style of play (I prefer focusing on fluff/story then competative play) so it waasn't for me and recently sold all my PP stuff on ebay.
I buy all my products from Wayland Games, which makes GW prices not so bad at all, really, and I much prefer highly poseable plastic to single pose metal. Plus GW fluff is way better than any other kind of fluff out there atm, and nothing else even slightly puls my interest. I've been involved in the GW fluff since like 1989 so nothing is ever going to be as cool to me.
Do I have issues with GW prices? of course. I think they are overpriced. I dont think PP is amazingly priced either. I think they both overcharge, but that's just life.
I just dont think you can call GW out on quality. If there is one thing GW are #1 at in this industry it is the quality and detail of their models.
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Post by: Khornholio
I think GW is dying a protracted death here in Japan. They closed the Chiba GW last year and now even the independent retailers that I would go to now have less and less product on the shelves.
Japan's 'nerdom', unlike the West's, is dominated by anime and any small facet it might create. Ever heard of Ke-ro-ro gunso? It's a comic/cartoon about frog's that pilot Frog Mechs. Even though it isn't considered 'popular' here, it totally out strips anything compared to GW. GW totally dropped the ball and then buried it by accident when they started here. They went after the wrong type of nerds by putting their stores in the centre of Tokyo where the more intellectual nerds are rather than the gaming nerds frequent.
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Post by: Crom
JOHIRA wrote:Crom wrote:Then again, something is worth what someone is willing to pay.
And this is what it all comes down to. I'm not willing to pay. Many other people on this thread are not willing to pay. Judging by GWs financial reports, lots of people all over the world are not willing to pay.
Make of that what you will.
I have been out of the gaming world for a long time. However, it seems to me that GW almost went under with the exception of LOTR game they came out with, which saved them during the whole LOTR movies and merch boom a few years back. Then GW re-evaluates the situation and improves and goes back to the basics.
Where can you view their financial reports?
On a side note, are you guys that are posting from Japan, originally from Japan? Maybe GW is just more of a western culture type thing? So, perhaps the market is different. Do GW figs cost more in Asia?
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Post by: Buzzsaw
Gymnogyps wrote:I've noted an interesting dynamic at GW. Target age child, about 13 years old, male:female about 70:30, sees the minis and drags mom or dad into the store. A demo game is run, kid is in love. You can see it. Then the price discussion begins. You can see mom's/dad's thoughts clearly on their face: A starter set is $100, and you need to by the paint, glue, tools, too? WTF? You want HOW MUCH for TOYS????
Mom or dad have no concept of sculpting skill, GW economies, mold costs, or any other of the sorry excuses we hear all the time. The product simply doesn't justify the cost. So mom or dad walk the kid out, promising yes, they'll come back, but they never do.
The most heartbreaking example was a little girl who came in and went through this whole scenario. After she and Dad left, she came back and said, "My dad gave me $10! What can I get???" Nothing. Not a single thing. She was told she could put the $10 on a gift card and save up. She refused because it is silly. If she were already a fan, sure, it would make sense. But not knowing anything about it, they look like toys. Why save up for these toys when you can get a bag of army men or plastic dinosaurs for $3-$5?
The whole pricing thing makes sense for people who care enough to learn what the product is. It makes no sense at all to the random folks on the street. Because they are JUST TOYS.
Even hyper rich upper class parents don't like frivolously wasting money on overpriced crap toys. They're not even painted? WTF? One parent had this discussion with me the other day. And I tried to talk about the time spent modeling, painting, playing- not relevant. They also walked out, not buying anything. The response: that is too much for a toy.
This disconnect with the market is the problem I see. Either GW products are toys to be marketed to children, in which case they must be priced to compete with all the mass produced crap out there. OR, they are specialty products for the dedicated hobbiest. Like model trains, scuba diving, paintball, etc. If they are the first, then sure, turn and burn away. If they are the second, then the turn and burn business model doesn't make sense. The second model (lifelong hobby) requires expecting your customers to notice that the exact same Army Book /Codex that has been sitting on the shelf for years went from $22, to $25, to $29 in a couple of years. What customer wouldn't feel insulted by that, and balk at spending?
So yes, I think something is broken in the GW business model, at least here in the States. The customer is not spoiled little Jimmy with the brainless '50's housewife mom who has no concept of money. Most of the customers are college age or older, and most stay around for years. Until they can't justify the cost anymore or otherwise lose interest.
Note: this is my observation of how random folks off the street view GW, not intended to bash any of us vets. We all have different issues than the stranger off the street. We understand what is trying to be communicated by "GW is the Porsche of mini-wargaming." To random folks off the street, GW is overpriced crap. Trying to say, "hey its like a Porsche" is irrelevant to people who don't care about that sort of thing.
That story really strikes a chord: some weeks ago, I was at my FLGS and the guy manning the counter asked me to help him with some customers that had questions about Warhammer 40k (he doesn't play it himself). It was a father, his daughter (maybe 13-14) and son (11-12), each interested in a different army. I could almost see the amazement in his eyes that having 3 people get into this hobby wasn't a few twenties, but rather would be hundreds of dollars just for unpainted, unassembled models. In the end he walked out with a starter set, and we have never seen them again.
Beyond that, the thing that really struck me as " Really? GW Really did that?" moment was the new fantasy starter set. I picked it up because I liked the models, then promptly put it on the shelf. Some months later my nephew, who I think could easily get into the game, was coming over and I pulled out the set, thinking it might be a good way to introduce him to the game, you know, what with it being a starter set and all.
That's when I realized, that despite High Elves and Skaven both being armies with army-wide, faction-defining special rules, there was no set of sample rules in there to actually allow you to play the game in the box! You have to buy the High Elf and Skaven Army books in order to use the starter set in anything like a balanced fashion (well, as balanced as it can ever be when one army is low leadership, and the other side has a terror causing flying monster!). So, that $99 box intended to get you into the hobby certainly serves to let you know how you'll be getting rolled, once you realize you need 2 additional, $30 books.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Crom wrote:
Where can you view their financial reports?
GW's financial reports are available in the Investor Relations section of their web site.
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Post by: Adam LongWalker
I agree completely with what Buzzsaw and Gymnogyps has posted.
Over and over again people have commented about the GW pricing scheme.
I firmly believe that they have lost touch with the economics of their market.
The financials will tell you this. The closing of stores and layoffs in the US will tell you this. The failure of 8th WHFB. I know first hand that people are not playing this game because of the changes in the rules and the lack of immediate support (via new codexes). Planetfall, Cities of Death, Battle Missions, IMHO are not good sellers. Some of the models GW creates recently are not acceptable in quality. The increase in competition (which in a way not a bad thing) shows that people are moving to something else.
We are still in a global recession. The price of playing this game is getting to be too much for the average hobbyist to continue.
But until Kirby is removed from the board, there will be no change on how GW does things.
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Post by: Asuron
The entire problem is this
GW target children with their products, using a churn and burn strategy
Yet the pricing of the products makes targeting them entirely pointless, because quite frankly children don't have that kind of money except for birthdays and christmas
Yet they need a steady income, which can't come in except for those points on the year and the money from those times won't be substantial enbough to buy anything worthwhile
It just makes no sense, why target a audience that can maybe buy something one or twice a year and never come back again
Even if they do have money, the prices are so insane they can get almost nothing from it unless they are spoiled rotten by their parents
It just isn't a sustainable business plan, because the only people who can afford the products are ones who have a sustainable income and even then the pricing is outrageous
To be quite honest I'm suprised they haven't already gone bankrupt with these half assed strategies
People say The Hobbit will bring them in revenue and GW is probably banking on this as well
But see LOTR was advertised extremely well the first time through excellent magazines like Battle games in Middle Earth and had advertisements on TV
Not to mention the movies were done really well.
So not only do they have to rely on The Hobbit being successful and popular with youth, but they'll have to advertise in a similar way to get that amount of sales again
What are the bets they won't do anything of the sort though?
If the Hobbit doesn't bring in the sales, I don't see a bright future ahead for GW
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Post by: Ian Sturrock
If you compare GW prices with stuff like Lego, or Playmobil, they're not horrendous. As a parent, I was happier about buying my son a £30 Battlewagon that he may well be able to use and enjoy for the rest of his life, and that he can eBay to recoup a fair fraction of that £30 if he changes armies or gets into girls and motorcycles instead, than the £80 Playmobil castle that he wanted and got a few years earlier, and that I knew for sure he'd grow out of in 2-3 years.
That's just on the "parents buying stuff for their kids" front, though, and at least somewhat assumes knowledgeable geeky gamer parents. As an adult gamer, I am put off by GW prices to the extent that I've never bought anything in a bricks-and-mortar GW store, buy Vallejo paints rather than GW ones, and buy from eBay for preference.
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Post by: Mr Mystery
And I'd like to contribute even more utter bollocks, but I think this thread has that in spades.
So I shan't.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Too late
you just did, but like Goering and Himmler in the old song they are very small.
To the tune of Colonel Bogie on the count of three...
Hitler has only got one ball
etc
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Post by: Kilkrazy
This topic appears to have exhausted itself. Until the next time...
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