So this has made me finally decide to break my long standing silence on these forums.

My local GW store has recently made a few changes to the rules of being able to use their facilities. The local store has about a dozen gaming tables out the back (all decked out with terrain god bless them). Being a uni student, I'm also blessed with the ability to go in and play during the week when it's relatively quiet - however despite playing at the store purely for the off chance that I'll make a random purchase in order to continue supporting their business (most of my models are maelstrom bought) I'm considering relocating my gaming to a far more convenient (and friendlier and just as well equipped) comic book and hobby store.

A friend of mine informed me this evening after attending the regular Friday night gaming session that you are no loner welcome to play at the GW store if:

1) You don't have your own rulebook on your person
2) You don't have the specific codex for the army you are playing on your person
3) You don't bring your own templates, markers and dice
4) You proxy more than 10% of your models

My friends and I often will use an iPad or laptop to view a rulebook, or our own summaries of the rules for quick reference etc.

Up until tonight the GW store has offered up their own (battered and old) templates and blast markers for lend.

Up until tonight they haven't cared if you wanted to try out a few new models and proxy in a few units to see how things work - or even an entire army just so you can get the feel for it!

I can't help but feel this is some kind of GW wide initiative to drive sales and force people who want to play to spend more of their money in store. I'm also curious if anyone else has similar stories from their local GW stores. Please let me know what you think.

My apologies for the wall of text - I hope it doesn't crit too hard. Half a bag of wine was half the influence behind this thread.

Hurr.

Edit: Wine+spelling.... PHWOAR!!

Doesnt seem unreasonable to me - after all, GW own and operate the stores as a business and the gaming tables are their to supplement that - ie. to help drive the business. They are not there for the purpose of providing a gaming community (although that is what GW would have you believe).

I don't think it is unfair of them to demand that you use your own bought stuff rather than the store provide it?

Everything except #4 is more than reasonable.

They've asked you to use properly modelled armies rather than proxying, to bring the book they sell rather than the illegally-obtained PDF copy they don't, and to provide your own rulebooks and templates rather than using the store copy or simply taking them off the shelf?

Curs and scoundrels!

Hurrdurr2000 wrote:So this has made me finally decide to break my long standing silence on these forums.

My local GW store has recently made a few changes to the rules of being able to use their facilities. The local store has about a dozen gaming tables out the back (all decked out with terrain god bless them). Being a uni student, I'm also blessed with the ability to go in and play during the week when it's relatively quiet - however despite playing at the store purely for the off chance that I'll make a random purchase in order to continue supporting their business (most of my models are maelstrom bought) I'm considering relocating my gaming to a far more convenient (and friendlier and just as well equipped) comic book and hobby store.

A friend of mine informed me this evening after attending the regular Friday night gaming session that you are no loner welcome to play at the GW store if:

1) You don't have your own rulebook on your person
2) You don't have the specific codex for the army you are playing on your person
3) You don't bring your own templates, markers and dice
4) You proxy more than 10% of your models

My friends and I often will use an iPad or laptop to view a rulebook, or our own summaries of the rules for quick reference etc.

Up until tonight the GW store has offered up their own (battered and old) templates and blast markers for lend.

Up until tonight they haven't cared if you wanted to try out a few new models and proxy in a few units to see how things work - or even an entire army just so you can get the feel for it!

I can't help but feel this is some kind of GW wide initiative to drive sales and force people who want to play to spend more of their money in store. I'm also curious if anyone else has similar stories from their local GW stores. Please let me know what you think.

My apologies for the wall of text - I hope it doesn't crit too hard. Half a bag of wine was half the influence behind this thread.

Hurr.

Edit: Wine+spelling.... PHWOAR!!

Seriously? I'm not saying you're the cheapest mother on the planet, but this is your issue?

In the words of the immortal bard: sucker please.

I'm sorry if I was unclear, and I'm not even sure this will make a difference but;

Each PLAYER must have their own Rulebook, markers, templates and dice - otherwise you are politely asked to pack up the models you have with you and leave the gaming area.

Or have I been just too comfortable with the lax rules up until now?

Hurr.

When me and my friends go to our local store we always take our own dice,temps books etc but if you have forgotten anything you can usually borrow whatever it was from the shop no probs

Not letting you proxy things to test them out seems a bit draconian, but the rest doesn't strike me as odd.

Jokorey wrote:Everything except #4 is more than reasonable.

Not really. "You're not welcome to play here if you proxy more than 10% of your models" sounds fine to me. Cuts down on the spankers who have the ever so 'fun' constantly weapon switching symptom going on for their "custom converted special weapons troopers" or who constantly alter their list based upon the opponent they will be facing--but don't have the proper models and insist on playing the "pretend this is X when it's really Y which was effective against my last opponent but X will be more effective against you!".

Remember that "proxying" isn't exclusively "this Terminator with a large, cumbersome looking greatsword and storm shield counts as, effectively for rules purposes, Thunder Hammer+Storm Shield". It's also "this green army man counts as my Marneus Calgar".

A PDF is not necessarily illegally obtained. I don't want to get into the "scanning my own purchased copy" technicalities but what about if it's the WH or (for a while longer) DH books? I also think the no proxies thing is dumb but who's really going to enforce that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Cuts down on the spankers who have the ever so 'fun' constantly weapon switching symptom going on for their "custom converted special weapons troopers" or who constantly alter their list based upon the opponent they will be facing--but don't have the proper models and insist on playing the "pretend this is X when it's really Y which was effective against my last opponent but X will be more effective against you!".

A sincere question, if your opponent is okay with proxying what is the harm?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Not letting you proxy things to test them out seems a bit draconian, but the rest doesn't strike me as odd.

It is a bit weird, yeah. But I'm sure if you explained "I want to test this out before I buy it here and now", you'd get a free pass on that one.

Unless of course you're playing the empty base game.

Not letting you proxy things to test them out seems a bit draconian, but the rest doesn't strike me as odd.

This was infact my main issue - I kind of just added the rest in, in an attempt to paint them in the most villainous light possible.

This afternoon I was asked by one of the in store disciples of Gudarian to please either use the CURRENT Dark Eldar models or end my game.

Kanluwen wrote:It is a bit weird, yeah. But I'm sure if you explained "I want to test this out before I buy it here and now", you'd get a free pass on that one.

Unless of course you're playing the empty base game.

Yeah. I don't want to start up with saying OP is an unreliable narrator but I think a no proxying rule is going to be hard to enforce even if the redshirts actually would bother to try.

I dunno if this is a GW-wide thing, because it sounds just plain dumb to force everyone in the store to do have dice/templates/rule books on them.

Hurrdurr2000 wrote:This afternoon I was asked by one of the in store disciples of Gudarian to please either use the CURRENT Dark Eldar models or end my game.

What does this phrase mean?

Hurrdurr2000 wrote:This afternoon I was asked by one of the in store disciples of Gudarian to please either use the CURRENT Dark Eldar models or end my game.

Ok, assuming that's true then that is going too far. You have the older Dark Eldar models and no GW store should stop you from using them.

im guessing a staff member

What does this phrase mean?

Gudarian was one of Hitlers more successful generals. Again, let's just blame the wine.

Anywho, regardles; I don't know if the attendant was just in a gakky mood or if he was legitimately upset that I'm using the oldschool DE models that aren't PRECISELY WYSIWYG.

(Granted, I didn't have the new codex and I was using 1500 points worth of old models - but hey! I wanted to get a flavour for the way the new army works)

I was politely asked to quickly end my game.

Kanluwen wrote:Unless of course you're playing the empty base game.

Yeah, there's always that. The ol' Coke Bottle Carnifex probably shouldn't be used, but, say, something like repping Striking Scorpions as Banshees just to test Banshees out isn't that much of a stretch.

Hurrdurr2000 wrote:My apologies for the wall of text - I hope it doesn't crit too hard. Half a bag of wine was half the influence behind this thread.

Edit: Wine+spelling.... PHWOAR!!

Okay, I love this. I absolutely love this.

I understand you're a cheapskate uni student. I was one as well, that's why I understand and love where you're coming from.

Normally, wine doesn't come in bags. It comes in bottles. Cheap bottles can run about $5.

Sometimes even $5 is too much. Again, I understand. When cheap bottles are too much, what do you get? The box.

The glorious box of wine. A gallon of wine for about $15. Clearly the most wine you can get for the dollar. But what does the box of wine have to do with bags of wine?? Well my friends, inside the box of wine is the 1 gallon shiny mylar airtight bag of wine. The bag of wine that only becomes relevant when you are so tight that after you've gotten the box pretty much empty, you bust open the box and pull out the bag to squeeze out every last dreg of $2/bottle-equivalent mylar bagged wine, because you just can't afford to let the lukewarm grit that's been aging in aluminium foil go un-drunk.

And I admire you for it.

Hurrdurr2000 wrote:I was politely asked to quickly end my game.

It sounds like your plan to relocate your gaming is a good one.

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Cuts down on the spankers who have the ever so 'fun' constantly weapon switching symptom going on for their "custom converted special weapons troopers" or who constantly alter their list based upon the opponent they will be facing--but don't have the proper models and insist on playing the "pretend this is X when it's really Y which was effective against my last opponent but X will be more effective against you!".

A sincere question, if your opponent is okay with proxying what is the harm?

Again: "proxying" is such a broad category that it's hard to pin down one effective definition and you really need to go on a case by case basis. At least, in my own opinion it is.

If someone were to come in to a shop that I was running under the rules outlined by the OP and say "Here's my Inquisition counts-as Imperial Guard army. The Inquisitors and their retinues are all WYSIWYG and are the Command Squads. The Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are Hardened Veterans with the Grenadiers upgrade" and it's clear that they put a lot of work into it to make it effective and clear to the casual observer what everything is?

It's perfectly acceptable and I'd go out of my way to ensure that their army got held up as an example of what's an 'acceptable proxy army'.

But if that same person had come in with an army that was a hodgepodge collection of random models from various armies at random time periods, with paint slapped on haphazardly and no real effort put into making sure things are clear to the casual observer?

I'd make sure that they were aware of a 10% proxy rule and that it's fine for the first time they play there, but in the future to be aware that a little cohesive effort goes a long way.

These don't seem unreasonable requests to me.

The only one I wonder about is the proxy rule. Perhaps some folks have been showing up with silly proxies and there have been some shenanigans. Experimenting with proxies with an opponent you know is one thing, showing up to games against virtual strangers with 'yeah it's a marine with a flamer but it's actually a marine with a plasma gun' or 'yeah it's a marine with a flamer but it's actually an ork nob with a pk' is going to irritate and cause confusion.

Constantly showing up with your 20 year old space marine army of tatters and lagged paint to each game and saying one week their blood angels and the next their iron warriors or space wolves will also annoy.

And yes, it's a shop so selling things is a fairly understandable motivation. You should own your own templates and books in order to use their tables.

I support GW's decision here.

Okay, Kan. I certainly agree with those points.

Hurrdurr2000 wrote:I'm sorry if I was unclear, and I'm not even sure this will make a difference but;

Each PLAYER must have their own Rulebook, markers, templates and dice - otherwise you are politely asked to pack up the models you have with you and leave the gaming area.

Or have I been just too comfortable with the lax rules up until now?

Hurr.

Whats wrong with putting the AOBR-rulebook and your codex, together with your templates and your own dice (you don't touch another mans (or girls) dice) in the bag? It's not like that adds considerable weight to your pack.

The house rules don't seem too unreasonable to me. I'd actually encourage rules like this just to keep the ones never buying anything and using paper cups as drop pods away from my store. To onlookers and casual observers it does look better with as few proxied models as possible, which most likely equals more sales. Not to mention if someone use figures from a competing range... -.-

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Unless of course you're playing the empty base game.

Yeah, there's always that. The ol' Coke Bottle Carnifex probably shouldn't be used, but, say, something like repping Striking Scorpions as Banshees just to test Banshees out isn't that much of a stretch.

Yeah, it definitely isn't a stretch in my book.

Unless of course you've got Striking Scorpions in your army too.

Then things get a bit awkward

I guess you're right Pixel and Kan does make some good points. I guess the gripe is mostly coming from the area of - I'm a pennyless student currently but sincerely wish to play. Yet if I want to be a regular I'll have to fork over the noodle dollars to play my army.

Yea, I'm just not seeing a problem here either. Even #4 seems fine; I've seen proxies go way to far.

I've always wondered if redshirts would try talking this way to an adult not dressed in an Iron Maiden tshirt.

Hmm...you mentioned that this was in conjunction with a Friday night...usually these nights are a bit busier than most, and I can understand these restrictions as a way of decreasing the level of chaos (no pun intended ) that tends to prevail in crowded GW stores. Maybe there is another time you can come in to play, when it isn't so busy? They might be more willing to let you use proxies etc.

The thing here that gets me most is why on earth would you be disallowed from using OOP models for your dark eldar? One reason I love this game vs MtG is that while card sets rotate out every 3 months, my carnifexes, termagants, and grey hunters will be legit models for me to play with until...oh...say...forever. Telling you not to play with old (GW!) models in favor of the new plastics is tantamount to telling you 40k has a subscription fee. That is not my interpretation of how the game works.

Thankfully i live in a portion of America where there are no GW shops, only FLGS's and my own personal game-room in the house. This store you're describing doesn't sound like it has a very 'friendly' aura even before these rules were implemented.

One thing further - I agree with having your own RB, dice, and templates on hand and I loathe when people do BAD proxying (counts-as isn't as terrible because it's at least representational). My main issue was their stance on your older models.

Manchu wrote:I've always wondered if redshirts would try talking this way to an adult not dressed in an Iron Maiden tshirt.

I've never had any of these as an issue. For a long period of time we had a troop that played nothing but EPIC, and had lots of proxies for different tests, including paper bases for entire armies.

i'll note the OP said they actually buy their stuff online. Based on that, why on earth should they let you play there again?

Frazzled wrote:i'll note the OP said they actually buy their stuff online. Based on that, why on earth should they let you play there again?

Because it's a GW store that he wants to play at with his GW army composed of GW models that he bought from a GW-sourced supplier?

This isn't the bought online at 20% discount/want to play at Indy retailer moral dilemma. Having people in the store exhibiting the product and displaying their enthusiasm for the only product that the store sells for free should be good for business. I guess GW land doesn't view it the same way.

Nothing really strikes me as harsh, but my GW have never let you proxy anything; I left 2 kroot at home (before I started to hate them) and was told that I couldn't use two berzerkers to proxy them and to count them as casualties instead, so I guess i'm just used to it.

As for using non-current models, that's too far, and i'd complain to either the store manager, the regional manager, or write a written complaint to GW HQ; you're being disallowed to use GW models in a GW store to play a GW game, which is pathetic.

@sourclams: What makes you think GW doesn't like that? They don't seem to care if you buy the rulebook there or online, just that you bought one. I agree with your main point about having people play their being like advertising. Probably ties into why they want you to have the latest stuff, too.

@Frazzled: That's what I was thinking. It's a lot harder to tell an adult in a polo shirt some unreasonable bs than it is to tell a scruffy college kid.

all of those rules are double-edged blades. one, two and three mostly make sense, but a group only needs one rulebook per game, not one per player.

as for the proxy rule:

I played purely with cardboard base cutouts for a long time. It was not because I was cheap, it was because I didn't want to start an army that I would just put on the shelf. I played that way until I was sure I wanted to play eldar, then I celebrated with a box of dire avengers and a latte

Manchu wrote:@sourclams: What makes you think GW doesn't like that? They don't seem to care if you buy the rulebook there or online, just that you bought one. I agree with your main point about having people play their being like advertising. Probably ties into why they want you to have the latest stuff, too.

Or it could simply be the OP just has a pretty crummy looking army and the "please have the most current models" is a little less harsh than "Your stuff looks like it was assembled and painted by a blind man painting with a brush in his nose".

@Frazzled: That's what I was thinking. It's a lot harder to tell an adult in a polo shirt some unreasonable bs than it is to tell a scruffy college kid.

I dunno about that one. Many of the adults who come in wearing polo shirts look just as scruffy as the college kids in Iron Maiden shirts

I'm with GW on this one.

Also, its Guderian.

Heinz Guderian.

They have probably had people take home dice\templates as well as grab stock off the shelves for rulebooks\codexes.

#4 seems a bit unreasonable but might be due to player complaints.

Kanluwen wrote:
I dunno about that one. Many of the adults who come in wearing polo shirts look just as scruffy as the college kids in Iron Maiden shirts

And at last, Kanluwen is unmasked...

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:@Frazzled: That's what I was thinking. It's a lot harder to tell an adult in a polo shirt some unreasonable bs than it is to tell a scruffy college kid.

I dunno about that one. Many of the adults who come in wearing polo shirts look just as scruffy as the college kids in Iron Maiden shirts

I guess I was more referring to age and overall hygiene in relation to social status. A thritysomething redshirt doesn't really have the social standing to ask a professional, even in "plainclothes," to respect some ridiculous rule. In the end, a red/blackshirt can kick anybody out for any reason. I just think he'll have a harder time working up the nerve with some individuals as opposed to others.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I dunno about that one. Many of the adults who come in wearing polo shirts look just as scruffy as the college kids in Iron Maiden shirts

And at last, Kanluwen is unmasked...

...

Damnit, how'd he find out!

But seriously. I find it makes people more responsive if you look presentable(even if it's just a t-shirt and cargo pants, make sure they're not covered in paint, etc) and not like a stoner out for a munchy run.

sourclams wrote:

Frazzled wrote:i'll note the OP said they actually buy their stuff online. Based on that, why on earth should they let you play there again?

Because it's a GW store that he wants to play at with his GW army composed of GW models that he bought from a GW-sourced supplier?

This isn't the bought online at 20% discount/want to play at Indy retailer moral dilemma. Having people in the store exhibiting the product and displaying their enthusiasm for the only product that the store sells for free should be good for business. I guess GW land doesn't view it the same way.

Get ing real. They are not buying from the store there. That means his purchases don't mean gak to the employees in the store who are sold on store sales and orders. Enlightened self interest means push this turkey out, he's a waste of their space and oxygen.

And that's a pants-on-head slowed way to look at it. That's my whole point.

Frazzled wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Frazzled wrote:i'll note the OP said they actually buy their stuff online. Based on that, why on earth should they let you play there again?

Because it's a GW store that he wants to play at with his GW army composed of GW models that he bought from a GW-sourced supplier?

This isn't the bought online at 20% discount/want to play at Indy retailer moral dilemma. Having people in the store exhibiting the product and displaying their enthusiasm for the only product that the store sells for free should be good for business. I guess GW land doesn't view it the same way.

Get ing real. They are not buying from the store there. That means his purchases don't mean gak to the employees in the store who are sold on store sales and orders. Enlightened self interest means push this turkey out, he's a waste of their space and oxygen.

Hmm, if you were talking about a FLGS, you'd be dead on, but the sales of GW minis to third party shops is keeping GW stores open just as much as the direct store sales, they are all keeping the company afloat.

GW has been fairly open about the shops being about recruitment and induction into the hobby, the sales from those shops is a fairly good secondary bonus to them after they've got new folks coming in and seeing the hobby first hand.

Maybe Frazzled means that particular store is not keeping its doors open with third party sales?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:GW has been fairly open about the shops being about recruitment and induction into the hobby, the sales from those shops is a fairly good secondary bonus to them after they've got new folks coming in and seeing the hobby first hand.

This is hard to square with the closing of so many stores.

sourclams wrote:And that's a pants-on-head slowed way to look at it. That's my whole point.

No its smart actually. Enlightened self interest. Exept in la la hand all salesmen think of their targets.
Further they have no proof the OP has acquired anything from the OEM in any manner. You no buy stuff you GTF out!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Frazzled wrote:i'll note the OP said they actually buy their stuff online. Based on that, why on earth should they let you play there again?

Because it's a GW store that he wants to play at with his GW army composed of GW models that he bought from a GW-sourced supplier?

This isn't the bought online at 20% discount/want to play at Indy retailer moral dilemma. Having people in the store exhibiting the product and displaying their enthusiasm for the only product that the store sells for free should be good for business. I guess GW land doesn't view it the same way.

Get ing real. They are not buying from the store there. That means his purchases don't mean gak to the employees in the store who are sold on store sales and orders. Enlightened self interest means push this turkey out, he's a waste of their space and oxygen.

Hmm, if you were talking about a FLGS, you'd be dead on, but the sales of GW minis to third party shops is keeping GW stores open just as much as the direct store sales, they are all keeping the company afloat.

GW has been fairly open about the shops being about recruitment and induction into the hobby, the sales from those shops is a fairly good secondary bonus to them after they've got new folks coming in and seeing the hobby first hand.

Again, has no one ever worked in retail? They care about their store sales. They don't give a flying up anyone else's. If they did they are not salemen and should be fired.

4 I can understand to a to a point if the probably the same people showed up all the time with a ton of proxies . I can see a store getting miffed at that same with bring your own supplys as some people probably kept borrowing all the time.

Manchu wrote:Maybe Frazzled means that particular store is not keeping its doors open with third party sales?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:GW has been fairly open about the shops being about recruitment and induction into the hobby, the sales from those shops is a fairly good secondary bonus to them after they've got new folks coming in and seeing the hobby first hand.

This is hard to square with the closing of so many stores.

Exactly.

The primary purpose GW stores have game tables, and allow people to come in and play for free is so that the random Joe strolling into the store sees...

1) A diverse selection of GW products owned by individuals.

2) Painted Armies (which look great, even if badly painted when compared to...) unpainted Armies (indicating playability even if you dont have time/ability to paint.)

3) The possibility of player "recruitment." (i.e. - Hey guys whatcha playing? 40K, You ever play? No, but I have wanted to start! You should, it's fun, want to give it a go? Sure! etc...)

Please understand that it is no different than if you brought your "Big Mac" sack into a 4 star restraunt and occupied one of thier tables while you enjoyed the ambiance and breadsticks and water while you chowed down and left no tip.

Again, while that may or may not be the idea it doesn't seem to keep stores open.

Manchu wrote:This is hard to square with the closing of so many stores.

Yet it's what two store managers have both told me over beers, that the high ups are comfortable with other shops selling their minis, even at discount, as they view the GW store's principle goal as recruitment.

I also understand the closing of stores is to reduce rental overheads and in many cases smaller one man outfits have reopened near the original store but outside the premium mall space they had been occupying.

Frazzled wrote:
Again, has no one ever worked in retail? They care about their store sales. They don't give a flying up anyone else's. If they did they are not salemen and should be fired.

Individuals may well care about their sales targets, that's certainly true, but I doubt they would be allowed to set a store policy about that. I mean, if people are going into that shop with models bought at another GW store, what then? They can hardly be expected to take their receipts into the store for the next few years every time they want a match.

GW must expect people to come into the store to play with their GW models purchased at other locations, regardless of price, for as long as they have the open tables for people to come in and game.

(and again, on that note, OP, buy your templates and books, doesn't matter where but obtain some, because as I've read it, several GWs no longer welcome random gaming and only allow introduction games, so perhaps just be thankful you have the tables... or do what I'd do and open yourself a clubhouse to play... that does require a bit more work, but you'd be setting your own rules in your own club).

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Manchu wrote:This is hard to square with the closing of so many stores.

Yet it's what two store managers have both told me over beers, that the high ups are comfortable with other shops selling their minis, even at discount, as they view the GW store's principle goal as recruitment.

I think it's a great idea. I'm sure that's one of the things their remaining stores are trying to accomplish. But I also know that redshirts are supposed to move product and not just create goodwill.

My two cents,

1. In GW stores I have noticed; different Blackshirt,different rules.

2. If you are not happy, don't game there (vote with your wallet).

3. I personally am extremely angry with lame ass people that say they can't afford x/y but can have a expensive smart phone, roll up in a Luxury car and say they can not buy a rulebook. (like the mom and pop I work for, bouncing checks when they have expensive toys).

4.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
4. Proxies, sorry Its called WYSIWYG for a reason.

In my best Arnold Rimmer voice
"Honestly whats next? Sneakers representing titans, my boogers as snotlings? Or how about Lister's genitals representing chaos spawn!

j_p_chess wrote:3. I personally am extremely angry with lame ass people that say they can't afford x/y but can have a expensive smart phone, roll up in a Luxury car and say they can not buy a rulebook. (like the mom and pop I work for, bouncing checks when they have expensive toys).

I did think this when OP mentoned an iPad. But I guess it's a convenience thing rather than a cannot afford thing.

All the rules listed, applied by someone with a modicum of common sense, seem fairly reasonable to me.

That said, the staff can make or break a store. I've generally had good experience in GW stores, but I've met the odd red shirt who, if given a store of his own, would have me running for the exit...

Manchu wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Manchu wrote:This is hard to square with the closing of so many stores.

Yet it's what two store managers have both told me over beers, that the high ups are comfortable with other shops selling their minis, even at discount, as they view the GW store's principle goal as recruitment.

I think it's a great idea. I'm sure that's one of the things their remaining stores are trying to accomplish. But I also know that redshirts are supposed to move product and not just create goodwill.

Oh I agree, but going to 1-man-per-store and instituting draconian policies about the use of store facilities are two things that aren't going to help store sales in the least.

I can understand about not allowing non-GW models, coke can proxies, or scruffy looking 2nd edition armies that arrived the store via shoebox carried by unwashed band tshirt guy, but the 'no sharing dice' policy is hardly that.

GW stores are continuing their glorious death spiral into oblivion. Great strategic vision, that.

Manchu wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:GW has been fairly open about the shops being about recruitment and induction into the hobby, the sales from those shops is a fairly good secondary bonus to them after they've got new folks coming in and seeing the hobby first hand.

This is hard to square with the closing of so many stores.

You know, I can kind of understand why they'd close so many stores.

Having a large amount of stores in the same vicinity(like they tended to do at times) results in an overcrowding of 'official' GW shops. They really just need one in a central location, then they direct you to the FLGSes for gaming, etc.

All things being equal, it seems to be a problem of conflicting visiosn regarding what stores are supposed to be doing. How much automony to blackshirts have on this kind of thing or is it all from On High?

Hurrdurr2000 wrote:So this has made me finally decide to break my long standing silence on these forums.

My local GW store has recently made a few changes to the rules of being able to use their facilities. The local store has about a dozen gaming tables out the back (all decked out with terrain god bless them). Being a uni student, I'm also blessed with the ability to go in and play during the week when it's relatively quiet - however despite playing at the store purely for the off chance that I'll make a random purchase in order to continue supporting their business (most of my models are maelstrom bought) I'm considering relocating my gaming to a far more convenient (and friendlier and just as well equipped) comic book and hobby store.

A friend of mine informed me this evening after attending the regular Friday night gaming session that you are no loner welcome to play at the GW store if:

1) You don't have your own rulebook on your person
2) You don't have the specific codex for the army you are playing on your person
3) You don't bring your own templates, markers and dice
4) You proxy more than 10% of your models

My friends and I often will use an iPad or laptop to view a rulebook, or our own summaries of the rules for quick reference etc.

Up until tonight the GW store has offered up their own (battered and old) templates and blast markers for lend.

Up until tonight they haven't cared if you wanted to try out a few new models and proxy in a few units to see how things work - or even an entire army just so you can get the feel for it!

I can't help but feel this is some kind of GW wide initiative to drive sales and force people who want to play to spend more of their money in store. I'm also curious if anyone else has similar stories from their local GW stores. Please let me know what you think.

My apologies for the wall of text - I hope it doesn't crit too hard. Half a bag of wine was half the influence behind this thread.

Hurr.

Edit: Wine+spelling.... PHWOAR!!

These threads pop up from time to time, not as often as White Dwarf and pricing threads, but fairly regularly. Every time, I can find little to sympathize with*.

I've been playing in GW stores for the better part of 20 years and I can honestly say that I've never had a redshirt (or blackshirt, back when they were more common) have to tell me the rules of their store. I always did what was, in my mind, respectful and exhibited the most common sense and I got along well with the staff, even during my short stint playing at the GW in Nuremberg, Germany in the early 2000s (and my german sucks). I see nothing wrong with the 4 points that you are complaining about, but that may be because I've always assumed they were the rules.

*The half a bag of wine is genuinely sad though, most of the bums I see in Baltimore are drinking better then you. Also... wine? In College? I guess thats a cultural thing. In the US its kegs and cases of (cheap)beer at our parties/binges. Wine is for church/holidays and Europeans. At least in my family culture.

NELS1031 wrote:Wine is for church/holidays and Europeans.

That's hilarious.

I have to say that most of that sounds pretty reasonable. Our FLGSl tourneys require all of the same things. Like others have said #4 sounds a little out of line but it depends on what, why and how often people are proxying. The issue with OOP DE is WAY off in my opinion, they are still GW. But you can vote with your feet, go where you feel comfortable.

Well, I think the real answer has to tow both lines a little bit.

These GW stores are a business. It sort-of IS like bringing a big mac into an Italian joint, enjoying their water and breadsticks and not leaving a tip. Also, saying that, I work at a restaurant and I've literally had a woman hand me a tv dinner and tell me to go microwave it for her. But that's a little off topic.

I think everyone can agree that buying books/dice/etc. isn't that big a deal. Compared to fielding a fully painted army, acquiring that other stuff is a walk in the park for your checkbook.

Proxying also gets wayyyy out of hand sometimes, and I can understand why, especially if people complained, the store would have to crack down. 10% is a little strict but I, myself, pretty much just proxy flamers as melta for my IG and chainswords for power weapons. That's about as far as it gets, which would probably be within 10%.

Anyhow, the point I'm making is most people probably wouldn't be angry if this GW store kept their demands reasonable while trying to propagate gaming good will. I'd love a GW store with cheap merchandise, well-built tables as far as the eyes can see, and proxies galore, but you can't pay the bills with a store full of freeloaders.

So I agree with the store and the poster, in a way.

P.S.- although whoever told that guy to quickly finish his game with OOP dark eldar is out of line. They are, or once were, 100% GW Models, so that guy can blow. I doubt everybody who pain-stakingly crafted their own Storm Raven or Drop Pod would be pretty miffed if they were told to upgrade. Hell, I don't even know how that guy would want me to make Rough Riders. Pretty sure they're OOP all around, so what would he say?

My question is... How do they know you 'forgot' to bring your rulebook and/or codex? Do you have to present them at the door before you can enter?

It does seem like a difficult-to-enforce rule. As has been said, i doubt they do a check for Codexes upon entry, and 'subtle' proxies should be hard to notice unless they're spending more time watching games in progress than actually running the store.

On a side-note, what if you've memorised your codex? I've owned my Chaos and Tau codices long enough to know how many points each individual part of my army costs and what it does, and it's getting to that point with my fantasy army books.

I'm not saying I should be allowed to spring all that on a player who calls BS because it sounds overpowered (defending the Lash or a Railgun against a newbie or skeptical player without a point of reference would be hard), but vs your friends whom you have played umpteen times before and you both know each other's codices back to front, I don't see the issue; would the store still kick you out in that circumstance?

Avatar 720 wrote:On a side-note, what if you've memorised your codex?

What you've stumbled across is a possible rational for these rules. I think we can agree that they are mainly directed at pre-teens and teens. I can only imagine that there are tons of fights about what Billy "TFG" Johnson remembers his units can do -- at least judging by how often this seems to happen among adults.

Manchu wrote:I've always wondered if redshirts would try talking this way to an adult not dressed in an Iron Maiden tshirt.

What about an adult in an Iron Maiden t-shirt?


When I started playing, in 2004, there was a rule that you had to have your models painted and based to play in the store, except for a few 'beginner hours' on Saturdays. Boy, do I miss those days. You could go down to the shop, find a pick-up game with an adult opponent and generally play a decent game.

They changed that rule, and now the store is full of nothing but kids with barely or badly painted models. Adults have pretty much stopped gaming and only go in for long enough to make purchases.

Redbeard wrote:What about an adult in an Iron Maiden t-shirt?

That's why I never wear my Iron Maiden shirts into gaming stores.

Some of these rules seem quite ridiculous.

What's next? Your models must be painted to 3 color standard using only gw paints?

If you are going to have open gaming tables, have open gaming tables.

If you don't want open gaming tables, charge for them or take them out.

Renting the tables might preclude the need for any of these rules. But imagine the threads that would go up . . .

Hurrdurr2000 wrote:So this has made me finally decide to break my long standing silence on these forums.

My local GW store has recently made a few changes to the rules of being able to use their facilities. The local store has about a dozen gaming tables out the back (all decked out with terrain god bless them). Being a uni student, I'm also blessed with the ability to go in and play during the week when it's relatively quiet - however despite playing at the store purely for the off chance that I'll make a random purchase in order to continue supporting their business (most of my models are maelstrom bought) I'm considering relocating my gaming to a far more convenient (and friendlier and just as well equipped) comic book and hobby store.

A friend of mine informed me this evening after attending the regular Friday night gaming session that you are no loner welcome to play at the GW store if:

1) You don't have your own rulebook on your person
2) You don't have the specific codex for the army you are playing on your person
3) You don't bring your own templates, markers and dice
4) You proxy more than 10% of your models

My friends and I often will use an iPad or laptop to view a rulebook, or our own summaries of the rules for quick reference etc.

Up until tonight the GW store has offered up their own (battered and old) templates and blast markers for lend.

Up until tonight they haven't cared if you wanted to try out a few new models and proxy in a few units to see how things work - or even an entire army just so you can get the feel for it!

I can't help but feel this is some kind of GW wide initiative to drive sales and force people who want to play to spend more of their money in store. I'm also curious if anyone else has similar stories from their local GW stores. Please let me know what you think.

My apologies for the wall of text - I hope it doesn't crit too hard. Half a bag of wine was half the influence behind this thread.

Edit: Wine+spelling.... PHWOAR!!

Hurr.

Dude, seriously...


Drama much? GW doesn't need to snipe you to drive up sales. They're doing fine on thier own.

The old saying still holds true, "You want to play, you gotta pay."
At the very basic, you buy a book, minis, and dice. Agreed upon by players, rule books and templates, but thats beforehand, or by group proxy. No one goes into a store and starts demanding to use thier stuff, not have the stuff to play, so you drop a turd on the table and claim it a bloodthirster. Even with some of the cat's I play with, you have to at the very least have something to play with.

I might not like the temperature of the water, but i'm still going to swim. I might pee in the pool a little bit, but seriously dude, you can't think that those are really that serious to get uppity about.

If you would have come out of left field with, " They complained about my old stuff, or "I was using a couple of beastmen for Dark Eldar and they threw a gasket..."

That stuff you're mad about is pretty much a drop in the bucket for issues GW has.

I can go with this for the whole issue. It's probibly the wine... Try beer next time. Beer makes you smarter.

Redbeard wrote:
What about an adult in an Iron Maiden t-shirt?

Dunno, except such adults are less lame than those without Iron Maiden shirts.

imweasel wrote:Some of these rules seem quite ridiculous.

What's next? Your models must be painted to 3 color standard using only gw paints?

If you are going to have open gaming tables, have open gaming tables.

If you don't want open gaming tables, charge for them or take them out.

They aren't 'open' tables though - that's the whole point. They are provided by GW for the express purpose of selling product - no more, no less. They aren't provided because GW are so caring, sharing or because they think you are an all-round good egg; they want to sell models and the tables are a means to that end.

On a side note, I have never really understood the fascination for playing games in a GW store. I don't go into HMV and listen to music and watch DVDs for hours on end, nor do I spend time playing games in a video game shop.

filbert wrote:
They aren't 'open' tables though - that's the whole point. They are provided by GW for the express purpose of selling product - no more, no less. They aren't provided because GW are so caring, sharing or because they think you are an all-round good egg; they want to sell models and the tables are a means to that end.

On a side note, I have never really understood the fascination for playing games in a GW store. I don't go into HMV and listen to music and watch DVDs for hours on end, nor do I spend time playing games in a video game shop.

Then if they aren't open tables, charge for them or pack em up.

Plain and simple.

imweasel wrote:

Then if they aren't open tables, charge for them or pack em up.

Plain and simple.

Why are you trying to boil this down to a binary answer? Its their train set, they can choose what rules they want. Don't like? Don't go there -simples.

It must be an individual store thing.

At WHW the tables are free to use as you want and the staff won't give a crap whether painted/unpainted or proxied.

I suppose in smaller stores with space at more of a premium, individual managers may have to consider things a bit more carefully.

I thought WHW were going to start charging for tables? There was something posted about it in the Tournies section a while ago. Not sure if it is solely for tournaments though.

filbert wrote:

imweasel wrote:

Then if they aren't open tables, charge for them or pack em up.

Plain and simple.

Why are you trying to boil this down to a binary answer? Its their train set, they can choose what rules they want. Don't like? Don't go there -simples.

I guess you also have your own 'binary' answer as well.

Seems simple to me. Don't go there.

imweasel wrote:
Seems simple to me. Don't go there.

Er, I know. That's why I said it.

Regardless, its not just a case of either make them free or make people pay to use them - as I have been trying to explain, the tables exist more as a marketing tool than as a sop to the gaming community. They aren't really there for the gamer's benefit; its for the newcomers.

Hurrdurr2000 wrote:

1) You don't have your own rulebook on your person
2) You don't have the specific codex for the army you are playing on your person
3) You don't bring your own templates, markers and dice


My friends and I often will use an iPad or laptop to view a rulebook, or our own summaries of the rules for quick reference etc.

GW battlebunker rules state that in order to play in them, you MUST have 1,2,3 and have them with you. Nothing unreasonable there. I no longer play in one because I live a 3 hour trip away from it.

With the exception of WH&DH, there are no 'current' rulebooks or codices on pdf 'legally', so they are in the right to stop you using their store with 'illegal' products. To them, it's no different to you using recasts of their figures in store. "Far use" provisions do not cover this kind of media (under Australian law). The copying of digital media changes to the ACA were to enable the legal use of mp3 players (and ipods) and DvD PLAYERS (because they don't play off the disc, but copy into a buffer first, then play from that).

filbert wrote:
Regardless, its not just a case of either make them free or make people pay to use them - as I have been trying to explain, the tables exist more as a marketing tool than as a sop to the gaming community. They aren't really there for the gamer's benefit; its for the newcomers.

What 'marketing tool' for 'newcomers'?

Sorry, you 'newcomers' can't play on our tables without dropping $100-150+ US apiece, just to get started 'marketing tool'?

Yes. That's an absolute fantastic way to 'market tool' your game to 'newcomers'.

I'll stick with my binary answer as a better way to go...

imweasel wrote:

filbert wrote:
Regardless, its not just a case of either make them free or make people pay to use them - as I have been trying to explain, the tables exist more as a marketing tool than as a sop to the gaming community. They aren't really there for the gamer's benefit; its for the newcomers.

What 'marketing tool' for 'newcomers'?

Sorry, you 'newcomers' can't play on our tables without dropping $100-150+ US apiece, just to get started 'marketing tool'?

Yeah, you didn't think that response through did you?

What do people who wander into a GW see on game night?
People playing and (in rare cases, granted) having fun. It's crazy, but someone might look and say..."y'know...that looks fun. I like fun. I can haz fun too?" and suddenly...GW has a new customer!

Yes. That's an absolute fantastic way to 'market tool' your game to 'newcomers'.

Clearly the photos of GW shops they publish have misled me! I thought I could, as a 'newcomer' who has no army of my own and stumbled into the shop one day, watch two guys have fun playing a game they enjoy with two fully painted and coherent armies!

CURSE YOU FALSE ADVERTISING! CUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRRSEEEE YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOU!

imweasel wrote:

filbert wrote:
Regardless, its not just a case of either make them free or make people pay to use them - as I have been trying to explain, the tables exist more as a marketing tool than as a sop to the gaming community. They aren't really there for the gamer's benefit; its for the newcomers.

What 'marketing tool' for 'newcomers'?

Sorry, you 'newcomers' can't play on our tables without dropping $100-150+ US apiece, just to get started 'marketing tool'?

Yes. That's an absolute fantastic way to 'market tool' your game to 'newcomers'.

I'll stick with my binary answer as a better way to go...

You misunderstand me. I'm not defending or agreeing with the policy - I am simply explaining why the tables exist in GW stores. They are there to draw people in; so they can see games being played and thus spend their buy-in. This is how the GW business model survives; with a constant churn of new starters. Its handy for GW that so many of their own customers are happy to do advertising for them by playing in their own stores.

filbert wrote:You misunderstand me. I'm not defending or agreeing with the policy - I am simply explaining why the tables exist in GW stores. They are there to draw people in; so they can see games being played and thus spend their buy-in. This is how the GW business model survives; with a constant churn of new starters. Its handy for GW that so many of their own customers are happy to do advertising for them by playing in their own stores.

Sorry, thought you were trying to give valid reasons on why a gw store would issue such edicts.

If this is the case, then they probably didn't go far enough with their rules. They should make the rules such that only the elite of the elite gets to 'demo' their game in their store for 'free'.

imweasel wrote:

filbert wrote:
They aren't 'open' tables though - that's the whole point. They are provided by GW for the express purpose of selling product - no more, no less. They aren't provided because GW are so caring, sharing or because they think you are an all-round good egg; they want to sell models and the tables are a means to that end.

On a side note, I have never really understood the fascination for playing games in a GW store. I don't go into HMV and listen to music and watch DVDs for hours on end, nor do I spend time playing games in a video game shop.

Then if they aren't open tables, charge for them or pack em up.

Plain and simple.

They don't have to. they do what the they want. Its their ing tables.

Manchu wrote:All things being equal, it seems to be a problem of conflicting visiosn regarding what stores are supposed to be doing. How much automony to blackshirts have on this kind of thing or is it all from On High?

This is what has always puzzled me. The US game playing scene seems to revolve around playing in shops.

The UK scene is much more about clubs at parish halls, community centres and people's houses.

It would seem obvious that GW themselves aren't interested in people playing in their shops unless it helps sell product (directly or indirectly).

The first three don't seem that bad, but the last one... Meh.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Manchu wrote:All things being equal, it seems to be a problem of conflicting visiosn regarding what stores are supposed to be doing. How much automony to blackshirts have on this kind of thing or is it all from On High?

This is what has always puzzled me. The US game playing scene seems to revolve around playing in shops.

The UK scene is much more about clubs at parish halls, community centres and people's houses.

It would seem obvious that GW themselves aren't interested in people playing in their shops unless it helps sell product (directly or indirectly).

You beat me to it.

US players use the store tables and don't set up clubs or seem to play at home so much, which, when you consider how much more room folks in the US have for this sort of thing (large basements/spare rooms/attic space) seems odd.

The OP is from Either Oz or NZ though according to his flag, so Im unsure on how folks there do their gaming.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

You beat me to it.

US players use the store tables and don't set up clubs or seem to play at home so much, which, when you consider how much more room folks in the US have for this sort of thing (large basements/spare rooms/attic space) seems odd.

The OP is from Either Oz or NZ though according to his flag, so Im unsure on how folks there do their gaming.

It depends on the area really. I've looked into finding space for the club to play that isn't in a local store (and thus, subject to local store space and hours matching up with our schedules), and the cost is pretty heavy for a full days rental. I imagine that is part of it. Another thing is that while we may have more room, we're also more spread out. So a trip to a local store may take 20 minutes, but driving to one of our club members house who have those things mentioned may take 45 minutes.

Either way, I think the rules could be reasonable, though requiring each player to have a rulebook is kind of a meh thing. Codex sure, dice and templates, sure. Even proxies can be annoying at times (as has been pointed out already). But a shared rulebook? Doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

Frazzled wrote:They don't have to. they do what the they want. Its their ing tables.

Sure. But at that point, why the feth have them?

Sooooo, they're a store, that's trying to sell things, and is asking that you come prepared? Wow... I can't believe someone is complaining that their GW store hasn't turned into a library yet...

I agree with the OP.

it's just a game. I dont see why people have to be so uptight.

Bit puzzled by the proxy rule.
Doesn't proxying allow players to "test drive" units and armies they subsequently might buy, or help choose an army with a play style they feel good with?

I can see a counter argument that some people will just proxy ad infinitum.

The other points, it's GW whaddaya expect
Only joshing...
they don't seem unreasonable as already said.

I think the rules are fair, and will likely change when someone replaces the manager for that store anyway. Then again when that one is replaced, it just seems to be how they go. Don't like it; don't go and a new one quickly takes the place or they don't even care and go on like normal without you.

Manchu wrote:

j_p_chess wrote:3. I personally am extremely angry with lame ass people that say they can't afford x/y but can have a expensive smart phone, roll up in a Luxury car and say they can not buy a rulebook. (like the mom and pop I work for, bouncing checks when they have expensive toys).

I did think this when OP mentoned an iPad. But I guess it's a convenience thing rather than a cannot afford thing.

You'd think so.
Depending on the course it would be a complete waste of money as he could easily go get a second hand laptop for $50ish if money is such a problem.
40k can wait, they should really be studying more.


I'm agreeing with Frazzled here. They get targets they have to meet, they meet them it's alright, if they don't they're gone. That's just the way the hell that is retail is.
That being said I do buy a majority of my stuff from Maelstrom as well, but that was more for a lack of a FLGS and having two nearby GWs (one was good and I buy stuff from occasionally, the other crap and haven't been there for quite a while now).

Now that a FLGS has finally opened up around here though I've decided to try to split it half and half.

It seems to me as an uncreative selling tactic, I know my local manager well and he's extremely relaxed about stuff like this.

To me they all seem fair. I doubt that the shop was bothered about the minis, so much as using the old OOP Codex which is out of date. The intension was probably to get them to purchase the new 'improved' and fith editioned codex.

To be fair, it's not a free playground. Abide by the rules and fun can be had. I used to have a great time playing at one of my older haunts, Darlington GW, same as I do now at WHW. It's all about attitude and approach.

I don't understand why GW would be this way.

You are already paying out of your rectum for an extremely overpriced hobby. The least they can do is have a friendly environment with good boards, terrain, templates, and store copies of codexes and dice that you can use.

I would actually be more encouraged to buy models if the atmosphere was nice instead of being gouged left and right by strict and unnecessary rules.

I agree with the OP. Too many depressed, socially maladjusted nerds play warhammer. You should play for fun and there should be no problem supplying a player with a necessity like a codex or some dice if they are lacking.

Hurrdurr2000 wrote:1) You don't have your own rulebook on your person
2) You don't have the specific codex for the army you are playing on your person
3) You don't bring your own templates, markers and dice
4) You proxy more than 10% of your models

1 & 2) - not having pirated books and codexes is a good thing. Not to mention they're probably fed up of dealing with disputes involving either lack of books or downloaded PDFs with changes to the stats and rules.... I won't play anyone that doesn't have their codex.

3) Is there enough templates and dice for every table? If not then people should be bringing them.

4) Sounds good to me, I hate proxy models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Avatar 720 wrote:On a side-note, what if you've memorised your codex? I've owned my Chaos and Tau codices long enough to know how many points each individual part of my army costs and what it does, and it's getting to that point with my fantasy army books.

Can you quote the exact wording for every rule? Because, in the event of a conflict with another rule, that's what would be required. Not your memory of what the rule does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hurrdurr2000 wrote:Anywho, regardles; I don't know if the attendant was just in a gakky mood or if he was legitimately upset that I'm using the oldschool DE models that aren't PRECISELY WYSIWYG.

(Granted, I didn't have the new codex and I was using 1500 points worth of old models - but hey! I wanted to get a flavour for the way the new army works)

I was politely asked to quickly end my game.

You were playing dark eldar without a codex (in violation of the rule they'd made you aware of) and you think his problem was with the models?

redguardsman wrote:I don't understand why GW would be this way.

You are already paying out of your rectum for an extremely overpriced hobby. The least they can do is have a friendly environment with good boards, terrain, templates, and store copies of codexes and dice that you can use.

I would actually be more encouraged to buy models if the atmosphere was nice instead of being gouged left and right by strict and unnecessary rules.

I agree with the OP. Too many depressed, socially maladjusted nerds play warhammer. You should play for fun and there should be no problem supplying a player with a necessity like a codex or some dice if they are lacking.

The problem is that when you have to supply 10 players with codicies, dice and templates. Or don't really have the capacity to supply them all and fights and/or moaning break out between the 'cause someone's hogging all the dice/template/your codex.

GW employees are there to sell, not to counsel 25 year olds having a hissyfit because of *whatever*

As stated earlier in the thread, the tables are there as a marketing tool.

They aren't 'open' tables though - that's the whole point. They are provided by GW for the express purpose of selling product - no more, no less. They aren't provided because GW are so caring, sharing or because they think you are an all-round good egg; they want to sell models and the tables are a means to that end.

I disagree with the OP. Too many depressed, socially inept bums without jobs play warhams. You should play for fun and there should be no problem supplying your own codex or dice. That would perhaps let us with a modest discretionary income buy stuff without wading through a nerdherd trying to exchange their food coupons for a blister.

Wow. This thread... really? 1, 2, and 3 are reasonable? My BF and I share a rulebook. They cost 60 bucks. We share dice, because we don't need 12,000 f'ing dice. We use one set of templates, because by jove, we don't need 12,000 f'ing templates. Honestly, I think that the proxy rule is the MOST reasonable, because they are trying to sell MODELS. They are not making their cash flow off of rulebooks, templates, and dice.

Seeing as this guy comes from Australia, I can see his point. GW won't allow him to play because he bought his models from overseas, where HE CAN ACTUALLY AFFORD TO PLAY?

Seems like GW might be implementing this policy in a desperate attempt to get more cashflow in Australia. If only they knew...

thebaroness wrote:Wow. This thread... really? 1, 2, and 3 are reasonable? My BF and I share a rulebook. They cost 60 bucks. We share dice, because we don't need 12,000 f'ing dice. We use one set of templates, because by jove, we don't need 12,000 f'ing templates. Honestly, I think that the proxy rule is the MOST reasonable, because they are trying to sell MODELS. They are not making their cash flow off of rulebooks, templates, and dice.

They are reasonable. Though I understand your point to an extent and the manager would have to be a tightwad to insist couples have duplicate equipment

you only need 10 dice and the scatter/artillery dice per table.
Unless you are superstitious/OCD and won't borrow the oppo's. Or they could be I guess, miserable git. Wouldn't play with him again.
Templates: you must have one set between you , likewise oppo presumably would.
Same with books. Do you and BF play same armies. Really can see that as a bone of contention in this context and agin it would be unreasonable to say a couple should have a codex each.
I am not suggesting that is how I would run a store btw. Just that I understand there are players that may be pushing things and the manager may be cheesed off with it.

Having said that if I had an iPad I would be tempted to have PDF files on it rather than risk my army book been ravaged by other players. Grubby handed gits not taking care of my books! B'tards!!

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
Having said that if I had an iPad I would be tempted to have PDF files on it rather than risk my army book been ravaged by other players. Grubby handed gits not taking care of my books! B'tards!!

You'd rather risk the $500 iPad than $30 armybook? That's the spirit!

years ago, when mum took me down to the store they said: " heyman, if you love this game, once you buy the rulebook you can decide on an army, pick a codex and we'll let you stay here with us for the day, but you have to make sure you learn the rules!"

nevertheless, i never bought the $80 rulebook because i never saw why i should if i can get it online for free. They still let me stay at the store as long as i wanted while mum was off in myer or david jones. the dudes i hung out with were awesome, but i'm not sure if they're still there anymore..... but still, i sat there for a few days during summer holidays painting models and looking at boards untill one day, as i was about to walk into the store (luckily i didn't have any stuff with me ) i met a girl. we didn't stay together for long (i never really liked her lol) but still, meeting her lead me to believe there were other girls out there, and so began my two yeaars of chasing girls i haven't been to GW since, but i have recently gotten back into the hobby and i may go there tomorrow

i really hope the store i used to go to is still really fun to be in ..

Brunius wrote:Seeing as this guy comes from Australia, I can see his point. GW won't allow him to play because he bought his models from overseas, where HE CAN ACTUALLY AFFORD TO PLAY?

Seems like GW might be implementing this policy in a desperate attempt to get more cashflow in Australia. If only they knew...

Buying from GW.

40k
40k BRB $96 (or you can get AoBR for $150 and get it from there)
Templates $14 (or from AoBR)
Dice $13
Codices range from $33 (Black Templars) to $50 (Space Marines) the majority are $48.

Total without AoBR $173
With AoBR $213

WHFB
WHFB BRB $124 (or IoB $165)
Armybooks $48 (except the new O&G one for $62)

Total without IoB $199
With IoB $213

Thus you can see where all the complaints come from and the suggestions for Maelstrom and other online stores.

Avatar 720 wrote:On a side-note, what if you've memorised your codex? I've owned my Chaos and Tau codices long enough to know how many points each individual part of my army costs and what it does, and it's getting to that point with my fantasy army books.

I'm not saying I should be allowed to spring all that on a player who calls BS because it sounds overpowered (defending the Lash or a Railgun against a newbie or skeptical player without a point of reference would be hard), but vs your friends whom you have played umpteen times before and you both know each other's codices back to front, I don't see the issue; would the store still kick you out in that circumstance?

And what if you memorized something incorrectly and your opponent called you on it? C'mon, get real!

redguardsman wrote:I don't understand why GW would be this way.

You are already paying out of your rectum for an extremely overpriced hobby. The least they can do is have a friendly environment with good boards, terrain, templates, and store copies of codexes and dice that you can use.

I would actually be more encouraged to buy models if the atmosphere was nice instead of being gouged left and right by strict and unnecessary rules.

I agree with the OP. Too many depressed, socially maladjusted nerds play warhammer. You should play for fun and there should be no problem supplying a player with a necessity like a codex or some dice if they are lacking.

Surely the point is that if you turn up without rules, codex, templates, or models, you haven't paid a penny for your hobby.

The shop is not a youth club.

Proxying is all right if it's done within reasonable limits. Some people may be taking the piss.

Seems like Gw is starting to crack down just latly

My local store hear in the u.k has just shut our games room till further notice (6 buitiful gaming tables with scenery etc just sitting there collecting dust) there reasining however warpped is that sales are down and until they pick up the games room is shut.

now to me this has had the oposite effect as although i still go in a couple of times a month to paint etc (i used to go every week for about 5 hours on a thursday) i have also noticed that over 50% of the regulars have disapeared and thus they are never going to boost sales by pushing people away

now i do not by any major purchase from the store (they all go to web stores wich can sell the same thing up to 20% cheaper and still make a profit don't get me started on that subjuect) but i will usualy buy little bits when i am in like paint etc

all they have done is pushed us veteran (18 years now including 2 a s a staff member in the good old days) away

however on the posative side it has pushed me into a course of action that i have been threatning for a year or so now and that is to set up and run my own gaming club at my local youth centre (which i also run as i am a youth worker for my sins LOL) it will start on 6th april with all invited and no silly rules (just sencible ones) anyone in the north wales area or chester and surounding areas contact me for details

well thats the soap box rant out of my system for another week LOL

happy gaming all and chin up we still have a fantastic hobby

Hurrdurr2000 wrote:

My friends and I often will use an iPad or laptop to view a rulebook, or our own summaries of the rules for quick reference etc.

Edit: Wine+spelling.... PHWOAR!!

I don't see any of that as particularly unreasonable to be honest. I don't know if you have scanned in the rulebooks yourself but even if you have it is going to look to others like you may have pirated them. This does happen to be "stealing" so why would you expect the company that actually sells the items to let you get away with that?

I'm not getting up on a soap box here because I have certainly downloaded more then my fair share of GW rules off the internet but I don't ever expect to go into a gaming store (GW or not) and wip them out and use them.

sbu wrote:now i do not by any major purchase from the store (they all go to web stores wich can sell the same thing up to 20% cheaper and still make a profit don't get me started on that subjuect) but i will usualy buy little bits when i am in like paint etc

Then why should they pay rent on gaming space if you never buy from them?

The web stores dont have brick and mortar costs and don't have to provide gaming spaces for entitled parasites so of course they can make a profit with 20% cheaper. If you want a gaming space then you might need to accept the 20% increase to fund the game space or maybe you should pay to play in order to justify the store owner's cost output to give time, tables and space for you to place.

It sounds like if you don't know how basic economy works after 18 years of mooching, then he made a great decision throwing you out into the street. I hope you lose tons of time and money making your own gaming center because entitled selfish gamers think they should get everything for free and your effort is worthless and has no value. Gaming clubs are not cheap and neither are maintaining tables and terrain.

Those rules are still relatively lax from what I've seen. One GW store from many years back said that:

1.) no Non-GW items on their tables (including lucky charms, cellphones, and other such nicknacks).
2.) no proxying whatsoever. Your models also must be painted with at least 3 colors, with no original plastic grey or pewter metal showing. They also must conform to WYSIWYG exactly.
3.) Bring everything yourself. That includes rulebook, templates, dice and rulers.

thebaroness wrote:Wow. This thread... really? 1, 2, and 3 are reasonable? My BF and I share a rulebook. They cost 60 bucks. We share dice, because we don't need 12,000 f'ing dice. We use one set of templates, because by jove, we don't need 12,000 f'ing templates. Honestly, I think that the proxy rule is the MOST reasonable, because they are trying to sell MODELS. They are not making their cash flow off of rulebooks, templates, and dice.

Do you never play anyone other than each other?

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:On a side-note, what if you've memorised your codex? I've owned my Chaos and Tau codices long enough to know how many points each individual part of my army costs and what it does, and it's getting to that point with my fantasy army books.

I'm not saying I should be allowed to spring all that on a player who calls BS because it sounds overpowered (defending the Lash or a Railgun against a newbie or skeptical player without a point of reference would be hard), but vs your friends whom you have played umpteen times before and you both know each other's codices back to front, I don't see the issue; would the store still kick you out in that circumstance?

And what if you memorized something incorrectly and your opponent called you on it?

...that would mean I haven't memorised it. Memorising something is remembering what it is/does etc. so, if I get part of it wrong, then I obviously have not memorised it.

As for my opponent calling me on it, read my post again, namely the bit I bolded. If we both knew each others codex and we'd played each other lots of times before, then there would be nothing to call out on, as you would know what your opponent knew and vice versa.

C'mon, get real!

I find this quite innappropriate; was it really necessary?

sbu wrote:Seems like Gw is starting to crack down just latly

My local store hear in the u.k has just shut our games room till further notice (6 buitiful gaming tables with scenery etc just sitting there collecting dust) there reasining however warpped is that sales are down and until they pick up the games room is shut.

now to me this has had the oposite effect as although i still go in a couple of times a month to paint etc (i used to go every week for about 5 hours on a thursday) i have also noticed that over 50% of the regulars have disapeared and thus they are never going to boost sales by pushing people away

now i do not by any major purchase from the store (they all go to web stores wich can sell the same thing up to 20% cheaper and still make a profit don't get me started on that subjuect) but i will usualy buy little bits when i am in like paint etc

all they have done is pushed us veteran (18 years now including 2 a s a staff member in the good old days) away

however on the posative side it has pushed me into a course of action that i have been threatning for a year or so now and that is to set up and run my own gaming club at my local youth centre (which i also run as i am a youth worker for my sins LOL) it will start on 6th april with all invited and no silly rules (just sencible ones) anyone in the north wales area or chester and surounding areas contact me for details

well thats the soap box rant out of my system for another week LOL

happy gaming all and chin up we still have a fantastic hobby

So, if you make no contributions to your hobby store, should you be complaining that it has restricted access to its built-in loiterer's area?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Avatar 720 wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:On a side-note, what if you've memorised your codex? I've owned my Chaos and Tau codices long enough to know how many points each individual part of my army costs and what it does, and it's getting to that point with my fantasy army books.

I'm not saying I should be allowed to spring all that on a player who calls BS because it sounds overpowered (defending the Lash or a Railgun against a newbie or skeptical player without a point of reference would be hard), but vs your friends whom you have played umpteen times before and you both know each other's codices back to front, I don't see the issue; would the store still kick you out in that circumstance?

And what if you memorized something incorrectly and your opponent called you on it?

...that would mean I haven't memorised it. Memorising something is remembering what it is/does etc. so, if I get part of it wrong, then I obviously have not memorised it.

As for my opponent calling me on it, read my post again, namely the bit I bolded. If we both knew each others codex and we'd played each other lots of times before, then there would be nothing to call out on, as you would know what your opponent knew and vice versa.

C'mon, get real!

I find this quite innappropriate; was it really necessary?

Yes it was. People who can't show up prepared to play/work/etc. become rather tedious company. This store is probably tired of its store stock becoming a lending library. The staff is probably tired of becoming referees when two players become elevated in there tone.

This is a game, treat it as such. That being said, come prepared. It is not appropriate to show up without your rulebooks, codexes, templates, etc.

Avatar 720 wrote:...that would mean I haven't memorised it. Memorising something is remembering what it is/does etc. so, if I get part of it wrong, then I obviously have not memorised it.

Remembering what it is/does is not the same as memorising the exact wording which you may well need in the event of a rules conflict. Why is bringing your codex a problem?

Yes it was. People who can't show up prepared to play/work/etc. become rather tedious company. This store is probably tired of its store stock becoming a lending library. The staff is probably tired of becoming referees when two players become elevated in there tone.

This is a game, treat it as such. That being said, come prepared. It is not appropriate to show up without your rulebooks, codexes, templates, etc.

Do you know what else is tedious? People not reading the whole post before they reply.

me wrote:read my post again, namely the bit I bolded.

Remembering what it is/does is not the same as memorising the exact wording which you may well need in the event of a rules conflict. Why is bringing your codex a problem?

You're bringing my reply out of context; I was replying to the secnario of having memorising something incorrectly.

As for bringing the codex being a problem; you're putting words into my mouth there, as I never said it was a problem, I simply brought memorising the codex up as a possibility.

I can sum up the problems of this entire thread in one ancient military secret: KISS .

People complain about the state of the hobby, too expensive, stores imposing draconian rules, etc. Does no one see the root of these events is probably *gasp* them?
"I memorize my codex, releiving me of carrying a 6 oz book into my store" Really? You have committed that much to memory? Or are you simply trying to play the Devil's advocate for a futile cause?
"I have proxied over 10% of my army, they're jerks for not letting me in" Or are they jerks for trying to avoid the inevitable arguments caused my the magic shape-changing troops?
"Why does the store not provide templates, dice, and whatnot when I come in to play?" Why don't they supply you a tournament ready army, too?

The answer to many of these questions is in the power of the players. You want the customer service to get better? Then become a customer, not a freeloader!

"I memorize my codex, releiving me of carrying a 6 oz book into my store" Really? You have committed that much to memory? Or are you simply trying to play the Devil's advocate for a futile cause?

Assuming you're replying to me here (since i'm the only one who's brought it up as a possibilty so far), may I ask you where I said i'd memorised it in order to save weight? All you've done is mis-quoted me to try and prove a point.

What I did bring up (and what you keep failing to understand) is the possbility of it being done. I studied drama for over 5 years, and had to memorise a lot of stuff in short amounts of time; naturally, this became second nature, and I started doing it with other things.

My point that I have been trying to make: What if a group of people who play each other (this was the bolded part that you ignored) did just that, memorised their codices because they'd played that army for a long time/played against it for a long time?

Next time, if you want to quote me, please do it with my actual words, otherwise try and paraphrase and avoid adding in bits that were not originally there.

Most people have those single sheet rules summaries so that they don't need to carry the rulebook with them all the time. Codex is slightly different because most people are only intimately familiar with their own.

Wish I could memorise what I had for breakfast this morning never mind a cowin' codex!

I'm eighty three you know...

Memorizing rules for the sake of speeding up a game is fine, but I would always carry at least a photocopied page of the rules, in case any disputes do arise. Summarization does not bold well for those who are hellbent on playing RAW.

I can see those rules for pickup games just fine, they seem bizarre if people are coming in with plans to play against each other (IE, why can't two friends share a rulebook dice and templates?).

Seems fine to me. The sharing template thing is a bit meh....

Eh At least they didn't require fully painted armies

Avatar 720 wrote:

"I memorize my codex, releiving me of carrying a 6 oz book into my store" Really? You have committed that much to memory? Or are you simply trying to play the Devil's advocate for a futile cause?

Assuming you're replying to me here (since i'm the only one who's brought it up as a possibilty so far), may I ask you where I said i'd memorised it in order to save weight? All you've done is mis-quoted me to try and prove a point.

What I did bring up (and what you keep failing to understand) is the possbility of it being done. I studied drama for over 5 years, and had to memorise a lot of stuff in short amounts of time; naturally, this became second nature, and I started doing it with other things.

My point that I have been trying to make: What if a group of people who play each other (this was the bolded part that you ignored) did just that, memorised their codices because they'd played that army for a long time/played against it for a long time?

Next time, if you want to quote me, please do it with my actual words, otherwise try and paraphrase and avoid adding in bits that were not originally there.

Yes, your point is that you (as many others, myself included) can/have memorized their codex/codices to the letter.

HIS point is, even if everyone has the rules memorized, why not just bring your codex just in case (and/or to at least shut people up about having it around) ? Especially when that (and rulebook/dice/templates) are all pretty small things compared to what most people probably store their models in.

^ If it's between friends that know and trust each other though it shouldn't matter.

I think it's a bit mountain-out-of-molehills here... I actually think there are not too disimilar rules posted in our local GW, and it's not really a big deal.

I always have my rules (both main and army book), dice/templates, and models with me when playing. I don't think I've ever proxied over 10% of an army, that lets you try out a new unit. In short, I'd already be meeting these rules for friendly games, as are most people I play with...

For fantasy, the main rulebook has a small paperback copy, which is the one almost everyone brings with them. The huge tome is too much to carry... but I can't imagine going to game without bringing the rulebook, questions just come up too often not to have it on hand to check.

Kanluwen wrote:Or it could simply be the OP just has a pretty crummy looking army and the "please have the most current models" is a little less harsh than "Your stuff looks like it was assembled and painted by a blind man painting with a brush in his nose".

Pot calling the kettle black much?

I direct the Jury's attention to Kanluwen's gallery: http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/user/722-Kanluwen.html

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:GW has been fairly open about the shops being about recruitment and induction into the hobby, the sales from those shops is a fairly good secondary bonus to them after they've got new folks coming in and seeing the hobby first hand.

This is hard to square with the closing of so many stores.

You know, I can kind of understand why they'd close so many stores.

Having a large amount of stores in the same vicinity(like they tended to do at times) results in an overcrowding of 'official' GW shops. They really just need one in a central location, then they direct you to the FLGSes for gaming, etc.

A la STARBUCKS... had 6 stores in downtown Sydney... all but 2 closed due to cannibalising eachother's sales...

AvatarForm wrote:Pot calling the kettle black much?

I direct the Jury's attention to Kanluwen's gallery: http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/user/722-Kanluwen.html

This jury members sees nothing egregious in his gallery. Golden Demon winning, maybe not, a better camera would help, but certainly nothing in there thats offensive.

The verdict is guilty of poor attempt at trolling on your part.

Have a splendid day sir.

Honestly I don't see what's wrong with just bringing your Codex, Rulebook, and Dice.

I find it annoying as when my opponent is always asking to see MY Rulebook and borrowing MY Ruler and MY Dice because they only chose to stick 5 in their back pocket of all places.

I don't see why they seem to think they have to restrict you on all those things especially Proxying, but I do feel out of common curtousy you should bring your own things in. Even if it's just a scanned printed off copy of the Army List section if you hate carrying around your codex (I'm not sure why you would be though )

I'm opening a new game store in west London in April. All are welcome. The concept of the shop is an extension of the best ideas from the old style GW.

There will be eight tables which can be configured to different popular sizes from 4x4 to 6x8 feet.

The terrain has been hand built and it's modular -- I've got some pics I'll post later.

We have most of the 40K armies done to tournament standard with at least 3,000 points of options. We're still short on Necrons and some of the non-Vanilla SMs, but we'll get most of the SMs done before opening. This is to allow players a wide choice of troops. In case you don't want to write a list, there are recommended pre-written lists so you can pick up and play.

There are at least two copies of every codex, plus dice, templates, rulebooks and all other game necessaries. You don't need to bring anything.

The best thing is, we even provide players to run each army. While your proxy player plays a game for you at the shop, you can play another game at home.

We're planning campaign weekends, when the action will carry on for two or three days (on Bank Holidays). Your proxy player will even attend the after game drinking and dining sessions on your behalf. Your proxy player can play the entire campaign while you go on holiday, saving you the trouble of having anything to do with 40K.

I don't believe any other wargame shop offers such good facilities.

For those not from Brisbane.

I've heard the last few weeks the new manager at the store in question has shut down prize support for tourneys and allowing non GW workers to run events at the battle bunker.

I assume he was the GW guy (there was one from the store anyway) handing out fliers for the new WHFB O&G range (10 savage orcs for $48US, yes US dollars as the Australian dollar is at parity with the US dollar, remember it is $28US for USAlanders .... but I can buy it for $21 direct from the UK)

A GW store has just closed in the town.

Things are not going well in 'ole Brisbane towne...

Auxellion wrote:Seems fine to me. The sharing template thing is a bit meh....

Eh At least they didn't require fully painted armies

Which would make more sense as fully painted armies present a generally better and more exciting image of the hobby to people entering the shop. That would surely be more useful than requiring every pair of players bring two rulebooks.

It could just be that they're fed up of people coming into the shop to play and grabbing books off the shelves to check rules. Because that's how you damage stock and make it unsellable; it's people thumbing through them looking for rules that ruins them.

All the GW shops here have a sticker on the copy that you're allowed to look through (i.e. if you intend on buying it and want to glance at it first).

Sounds like a bummer, Gonads... and Treesong, the problem with requiring fully painted armies (not that they're doing that here) for friendly play is that people who want to try out their armies / learn the rules / etc cannot do it there. So that business goes elsewhere... imho that's a great requirement for tournaments, not so much for friendly gaming.

As far as Kanluwen's comment about how it's better to have a single GW in a central location- around Baltimore there's a ring of GWs (presumably more here since the HQ/Bunker used to be here). So that statement doesn't appear to be their strategy here at all. I highly doubt they would close stores to make room for more FLGS's... as nice as it is to have more of them around.

RiTides wrote:
As far as Kanluwen's comment about how it's better to have a single GW in a central location- around Baltimore there's a ring of GWs (presumably more here since the HQ/Bunker used to be here). So that statement doesn't appear to be their strategy here at all. I highly doubt they would close stores to make room for more FLGS's... as nice as it is to have more of them around.

There's a key part of the context missing from your analysis of my statement.

I said: "I can kind of understand why they'd close so many stores" before I made the statement about overcrowding.

That's dealing, specifically, with the amount of GW shops we've seen closing here in the US. Many of them are ones were situated within five minutes of the others.

Do they necessarily "close stores to make room for more FLGS's"? No, but they do start hinting towards you wanting to 'check out this cool place...' at a certain point.

AvatarForm wrote:Pot calling the kettle black much?

I direct the Jury's attention to Kanluwen's gallery: http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/user/722-Kanluwen.html

I'd direct them towards your gallery...but it's empty.

Inquisitor Rex and his henchmen need to be photographed again, I'll grant you that. The camera I took the photos with was pushing 5+ years old, had no macro function, no tripod, etc. I bought a new camera and that's what the Hydra and Tarantula have been photographed with so far.

The Cadian test model clearly couldn't have been just that...a test.
The Terminator Sergeant in that gallery was stripped ages ago because I felt the quality wasn't high enough on the painting.

Do you really want me to go on and make you look more ridiculous, or are you going to play nice?

Did I miss something?
namely a WIP of the Stryker

Which way did he go?

RiTides wrote:...

, the problem with requiring fully painted armies (not that they're doing that here) for friendly play is that people who want to try out their armies / learn the rules / etc cannot do it there. So that business goes elsewhere... imho that's a great requirement for tournaments, not so much for friendly gaming.

...

I suppose it depends if GW want to present their shop as a venue for playing, or as a outlet for sales and hobby advice. I don't see why it can't be both, as long as people are sensible, but obviously the sales and marketing aspect must come first.

Perhaps the issue is that some customers come to see the shop as their club rather than as a business. Ideally GW want you to come in, buy stuff, and go away. If you come and play in the shop they want you to present the best look to the hobby -- painted armies -- and require the minimum of support from themselves (free rules, and so on).

Well I dont have a GW in my town or in my district or even in my country so I dont think they have gone that far

Seriously these seem like legit demands and rules for their gamers in their stores... personally the "your not welcome if " announcement seems not the way to go... I mean things could be handled on a private conversation with the " offending" players... but with the one man stores I guess thats asking to much... one man stores will in theory become less and less humanized and i think these kind of limitations/rules anouncements will pop up more and more.

Well I dont have a GW in my town or in my district or even in my country so I dont think they have gone that far

That sounds less like going too far and more like not coming close!

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Well I dont have a GW in my town or in my district or even in my country so I dont think they have gone that far

That sounds less like going too far and more like not coming close!

It definitely seems very hit or miss at times.

We had one GW shop within the entirety of North Carolina at a point in time. It was in Charlotte, which isn't a very good placement if they're trying to 'draw in kids/college students'--because Charlotte is more of a "working professionals" city than "raise a family here" city.

That shop closed down like a year after it opened.

Kanluwen wrote:

It definitely seems very hit or miss at times.

If my memory serves me correctly back in '06, GW purchased a program and data from a company that looks at the areas of wealth that are established via by zip code so that they have a critera (not the main one) on where to place their stores. This does not necessarly means that the store is placed in a wealth hub, it could be placed near a wealth hub at a reasonable distance, or if other criteria on placement supersedes the wealth hub aspect.

Other possible criteria are:

How far is it to a fast food places, restaurants, supermarkets, magnet stores such as Target here in the US that draws people to an area where the Game store could possibly be located.

Then it is up to the local population that are willing to get into this hobby and the employees in that store which keeps the store open.

Failure of a store is when the company does not do their homework on placement and follow through IMHO

Kilkrazy wrote:I'm opening a new game store in west London in April. All are welcome. The concept of the shop is an extension of the best ideas from the old style GW.
I don't believe any other wargame shop offers such good facilities.

Sounds awesome! Do you accept proxy money?

When I was a lad gw workers were quite cool guys, now I don't go into gw for fear of having some balding, overweight 30 year old virgin trying to force me to buy a b aneblade or something.

I realise i'm sounding a bit out of order, but seriously, I went their with my gf recently and there was an actual intake of breath and a race as to who could converse first with a real female.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I'm opening a new game store in west London in April. All are welcome. The concept of the shop is an extension of the best ideas from the old style GW.
I don't believe any other wargame shop offers such good facilities.

Sounds awesome! Do you accept proxy money?

Absolutely!

I'll send a proxy for whatever you buy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AvatarForm wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Or it could simply be the OP just has a pretty crummy looking army and the "please have the most current models" is a little less harsh than "Your stuff looks like it was assembled and painted by a blind man painting with a brush in his nose".

Pot calling the kettle black much?

I direct the Jury's attention to Kanluwen's gallery: http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/user/722-Kanluwen.html

Kanluwen's models look fine.

AvatarForm wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:GW has been fairly open about the shops being about recruitment and induction into the hobby, the sales from those shops is a fairly good secondary bonus to them after they've got new folks coming in and seeing the hobby first hand.

This is hard to square with the closing of so many stores.

You know, I can kind of understand why they'd close so many stores.

Having a large amount of stores in the same vicinity(like they tended to do at times) results in an overcrowding of 'official' GW shops. They really just need one in a central location, then they direct you to the FLGSes for gaming, etc.

A la STARBUCKS... had 6 stores in downtown Sydney... all but 2 closed due to cannibalising eachother's sales...

That is a deliberate strategy. Starbucks open multiple stores in a small area in order to force local coffee shops and rival chains out of business. Then they close enough stores to let the remainder become profitable.

I don't know if GW follow the same principle.

Hurrdurr2000 wrote:I'm sorry if I was unclear, and I'm not even sure this will make a difference but;

Each PLAYER must have their own Rulebook, markers, templates and dice - otherwise you are politely asked to pack up the models you have with you and leave the gaming area.

Or have I been just too comfortable with the lax rules up until now?

Hurr.

So everyone must have a full set of stuff, even if gaming in a group? So if you have 4 people you need to have 4 rulebooks and 4 sets of templates? That sounds pretty dumb.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Well I dont have a GW in my town or in my district or even in my country so I dont think they have gone that far

That sounds less like going too far and more like not coming close!

It definitely seems very hit or miss at times.

We had one GW shop within the entirety of North Carolina at a point in time. It was in Charlotte, which isn't a very good placement if they're trying to 'draw in kids/college students'--because Charlotte is more of a "working professionals" city than "raise a family here" city.

That shop closed down like a year after it opened.

We dont have a single one in the state of Florida, not one. You would think a place like Orlando or Tampa would get one. Not that Im complaining, Im at the point where even internet discounts arent getting me interested in GW stuff, never mind paying full retail for it. Though I must admit if there was one within reasonable distance Id visit it once, just to say i did.

I have 2 GWs within about 15 minutes, and I tend to drive 30+ minutes (and occassionally 2 hours on the weekend) to go to the independent stores in the area instead.

So, no real attachment to me about GW stores... I just think saying they're closing them to direct you to other FLGS's is just silly. Perhaps if you meant they close them to direct you to the other GWs, that would make more sense (a la the Starbucks discussion above).

RiTides wrote:I have 2 GWs within about 15 minutes, and I tend to drive 30+ minutes (and occassionally 2 hours on the weekend) to go to the independent stores in the area instead.

So, no real attachment to me about GW stores... I just think saying they're closing them to direct you to other FLGS's is just silly. Perhaps if you meant they close them to direct you to the other GWs, that would make more sense (a la the Starbucks discussion above).

Once again: You're misunderstanding. I'm not saying "they close them and direct you to shop at the FLGSes".

GW's policy, as it stands now, is they are directing veterans towards FLGSes.

The official GW shops are essentially "recruiting stations" where players are introduced and kept for an amount of time...then boom, they start getting directed towards the FLGSes.

I think its a local role we don't have that. or gw Australia.
I don't proxy allot. and if I forgot something i just use the shop version. including dice books templates and even models.
only thing we aren't aloud is to eat and drink in the shop. But than again we have a really nice local shop manager. and no red gak yet shop has only been there for like maby a half year.

Kanluwen wrote:

RiTides wrote:I have 2 GWs within about 15 minutes, and I tend to drive 30+ minutes (and occassionally 2 hours on the weekend) to go to the independent stores in the area instead.

So, no real attachment to me about GW stores... I just think saying they're closing them to direct you to other FLGS's is just silly. Perhaps if you meant they close them to direct you to the other GWs, that would make more sense (a la the Starbucks discussion above).

Once again: You're misunderstanding. I'm not saying "they close them and direct you to shop at the FLGSes".

GW's policy, as it stands now, is they are directing veterans towards FLGSes.

The official GW shops are essentially "recruiting stations" where players are introduced and kept for an amount of time...then boom, they start getting directed towards the FLGSes.

and this is strange. our local shop is always 50% veterans but than again its the veterans how teats the new comers. but than again we only have 3 gw's in our country and one has to do every thing with the French 2 with the dutch.( live in a country with more than one mother tong )
to go on the memo rising your rule book en codex. its the same for me i still bring them for when T am not a 100% sure of a rule but half the time they stay in my back pack. ( tournament role's state that you have to know your rule's bye hart books are only used to set el arguments)
and me and my girl friend use the same rule book dice and template's (oke I own 5-6 sets of templates 3 rule books ( black reach version big one an collectors edition and a butch of dice)
and my local club is 10€ a year for the use of tables and terrain thats how they keep there terrain in good state the space the get for free from a local computer en magic bar. and even then you are aloud to take non members with you only one person needs a member ship card to get the terrain. my local gw manager has gone there to play war machine with I fined a finny thing.

This is what has always puzzled me. The US game playing scene seems to revolve around playing in shops.

The UK scene is much more about clubs at parish halls, community centres and people's houses.

The main Aussie scene is like this as well.
The minority of clubs are based in stores, GW or otherwise.

My own club used to be hosted in the local Police &Citizens Youth Club (we found a cheaper venue across the road) with access to beer.
My previous clubs were usually run in hired scout halls or other community group locations.

Unfortunately in America it's not as easy to find or rent space in "community centers".

We tried to set one up where I live but were rudely informed that we could not "gamble" in a community center and they would not listen to reason when it came to how the games we play use dice.

Normal people just do not want to understand what this hobby is.

NELS1031 wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:Pot calling the kettle black much?

I direct the Jury's attention to Kanluwen's gallery: http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/user/722-Kanluwen.html

This jury members sees nothing egregious in his gallery. Golden Demon winning, maybe not, a better camera would help, but certainly nothing in there thats offensive.

The verdict is guilty of poor attempt at trolling on your part.

Have a splendid day sir.

This must be one of these one-man juries I've heard so much about.

You want a verdict? Go sit in a corner and leave the comedy to professionals. That was painful to read.

chromedog wrote:

This is what has always puzzled me. The US game playing scene seems to revolve around playing in shops.

The UK scene is much more about clubs at parish halls, community centres and people's houses.

The main Aussie scene is like this as well.
The minority of clubs are based in stores, GW or otherwise.

My own club used to be hosted in the local Police &Citizens Youth Club (we found a cheaper venue across the road) with access to beer.
My previous clubs were usually run in hired scout halls or other community group locations.

Actually, there is a fairly simple explanation for (at least part of) this: while in the US, we may have more space in our homes, we also have more space everywhere else. That is, more separation between where people live. Consequently, gaming stores can be far more convenient, especially for "country folk" like myself.

My FLGS, for example, draws from people from 30-45 minutes travel (sometimes even more) in every direction. Moreover, people know that the store will be there, and be open when they get there; this is especially important when the gaming group isn't a) very stable, and/or b) very big.

In a large city I could imagine the population density allowing for clubs, but at the same time they would have a hard time acclimating to the rents in the same areas.

imweasel wrote:

Frazzled wrote:They don't have to. they do what the they want. Its their ing tables.

Sure. But at that point, why the feth have them?

Interestingly, there is a DCM from a different poster. The store may be requiring GW templates, dice, and paint. The dice part got me. Seriously? if true thats the FU moment for me.

Buzzsaw wrote:Actually, there is a fairly simple explanation for (at least part of) this: while in the US, we may have more space in our homes, we also have more space everywhere else. That is, more separation between where people live. Consequently, gaming stores can be far more convenient, especially for "country folk" like myself.

If you're just talking about the UK, then yeah. But I'm fairly sure the Aussie population is more spread out than the US.

sourclams wrote:

Frazzled wrote:i'll note the OP said they actually buy their stuff online. Based on that, why on earth should they let you play there again?

Because it's a GW store that he wants to play at with his GW army composed of GW models that he bought from a GW-sourced supplier?

This isn't the bought online at 20% discount/want to play at Indy retailer moral dilemma. Having people in the store exhibiting the product and displaying their enthusiasm for the only product that the store sells for free should be good for business. I guess GW land doesn't view it the same way.

Thats right...not only are you supposed to have an amry for every faction in all the GW games, but they need to be current edition too...and you better have bought them direct from GW at full retail.

Good god people...ehat do you think they are, a company based on a hobby? They are trying to make money here. Shareholders who dont even know what a Space Marine is want bigger dividend checks.

...I don't see the problem really. I find it odd that they would enforce something such as no proxying, but I HATE proxy games. I'm not against other people playing them, but if that rule meant that people might actually put effort into finishing their army then I'm all for it.

I think all of the requests apart from the 10% proxy things are highly unreasonable. I am not suggesting it is alrite to just bring your laptop and look at your illegal scans but it is unfair to demand a rulebook per person. As for codexes i really should get one. Saying that i am not a cheat or liar and i resent being told i am, if an opponent accuses me of cheating it is up to them to check the codex. Anyway most people learn the rules from experience/battle reports or indeed forums, i have never owned a rulebook from the three editions. The most recent rulebook has 60 pages odd of rule content, 20% of this is restatement. It takes around 30 mins for a person of reasonable/moderate high intelligence to absorb it, if you play often it is reinforced to near eidetic recollection. If they sold the rulebook in a format that consisted of these 60-70 pages, merely for reference purposes, i would purchase it, till then they can suck it. I buy their miniatures Always, bar bits sites, from games workshop direct out of loyalty, so they should let me play. As for templates in the 3rd edition 40k rulebook they had them printed WITH EXPRESS PERMISSION for Photocopying, if this right of sanctioned reproduction has been officially anulled then i will buy their official ones, if not, they can suck it. AGAIN....

Perkustin wrote:if an opponent accuses me of cheating it is up to them to check the codex.

The onus of proof is upon you to show the rule you are using at the time. Both players having the relevant rulebooks to hand cuts out a lot of arguing and wasted time. You may have committed the whole book to memory but having one, with helpful tabs at regular trouble spots, can speed up the game a lot and lead to a more enjoyable time for all. Plus, I would think that you should want to help others understand the rules when they have a problem with how you play. You could well be right all of the time but unless you can show the actual words in the book most people will not believe you.

All the rules seem fine to me, they are offering you free shop space that could just be a starbucks or something. The least you can do is buy their products. Using largely proxied armies is like making your own sandwiches and then eating them in a cafe: your sandwiches may be really well made but it doesnt mean you have the right to take up their space while eating them.

Things like dice though, GW shouldn't have a rule regarding those. If I went out and bought a hundred precision gambling dice I should be able to use them. I know this is a slightly hypocritical view, given what I have said, but GW dice are not the best around.

I believe i know what store OP refers to, but i don't think rule #4 is correct, and it's actually:

Rule #4: All models must be 100% GW minis

So i believe you can still sorta proxy, but this means my army with is heavily converted and kitbashed, because i bought stuff from other places (ie shoulder pads and such) cannot be used due to this rule........... lame

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:Actually, there is a fairly simple explanation for (at least part of) this: while in the US, we may have more space in our homes, we also have more space everywhere else. That is, more separation between where people live. Consequently, gaming stores can be far more convenient, especially for "country folk" like myself.

If you're just talking about the UK, then yeah. But I'm fairly sure the Aussie population is more spread out than the US.

How far/long do people in your clubs travel to game?

I dont see an issue with the requests made by the stoe bar the last one.

All I have to say is that I don't go into GW because I can't gripe about new rules issues without a small deathsquad of staff members bulldozing me with propaganda, and I can't try out (proxy) entirely new armies with my AOBR set. I'd take my FLGS over a strictly-GW store anytime, just like I'd take a general computer store over the Apple store, despite that I actually like Apple's and GW's in-store customer service.

EDIT: To clarify, before I get mobbed by anti-proxiers, I'm talking about trying out an army and deciding whether or not I like them before I spend more money than I really have on an army. I don't have much to spend on things other than food and transportation, so this is something I do sparingly and in my free-time.

I dont think its unreasonable to require that you bring your own rulebook, army, templates, and dice. Otherwise your just going into the store to take advantage of their merch. I thought you were ramping up to them saying something like, "you cant play unless you make a purchase everytime, or your army is completely painted."

Hurrdurr2000 wrote:1) You don't have your own rulebook on your person
2) You don't have the specific codex for the army you are playing on your person
3) You don't bring your own templates, markers and dice
4) You proxy more than 10% of your models

I don't see anything onerous in this list. GW stores aren't lending libraries and you should have a copy of the rules, codex, and templates anyway. As for the proxying, that depends on what's being proxied. If you have a box of playing cards as a heavy weapons unit or soda cans as land raiders, then yes, I'd support GW in refusing your army. If you're talking Razorback being proxied as a Predator then as long as your oppenent is fine, it should be up to you. Official store events shouldn't be expected to allow any proxied units and GW has a long standing policy of not letting you use competitor's figures at all.

The only time I dislike GW stores is when there's a pushy, in-your-face salesperson who won't stop badgering you. Fortunately I don't get that at the Seattle Battle Bunker so it's all good.