So. . .apparently someone who has an advanced copy of the Codex has uploaded it to a sharing site and someone has linked to it from his blog and is now sharing with anyone quick enough to download it. Which lets someone like me get their grubby paws on it.

And according to the copy I have:

-Any Paladin can replace his Nemesis Force sword with a Warding Stave for (removed for mods) points.
-Any model in a Terminator Squad can do the same.
-And any model in a Grey Knight Strike Squad can as well, for (removed for mods) points.

-I was wrong about the Gundams. They can still take Personal Teleporters for (removed for mods) pts.
-The Shieldbreaker from the Vindicare only works on Invuls granted by Items and Wargear. Fateweaver is safe.
-Assassins have an 4++ and 6+ FNP.
-Henchmen Warbands are 3-12 models. 1 per Inquisitor, but Coteaz removes that restriction, counting them as a Troops Choice.
-Coteaz is the new Mystics. He has a 12" bubble that allows his unit to take a free shot at incoming reserves. Also, he allows you to re-roll the Sieze the Initiative, even if it is your opponent's roll.
-Inquisitorial Henchmen can have Rogue Psykers included. They have a Str. 3, AP 6 Assault Large Blast that can be fired. Increase the strength by 1 for each rogue psyker beyond the first. Lower the AP by 1 for every Rogue Psyker beyond the first.
-Jokaero Weaponsmith:

If he is in an Inquisitorial unit, roll a D6 before deployment. Add +1 to the roll for every Jokaero beyond the first:

1 - no effect
2 - all non-template weapon have their range increased by 12"
3 - all models in the unit treat their armor as 1 better than it is
4 - all shooting from this unit is Rending
5 - all models in the unit have a 5++
6 - Roll twice on the table and apply both results. Ignore duplicates.


-Paladins and Terminators both have no Dedicated Transport entry. Nor are LRs listed as Dedicated Transports.
-Grey Knight Strike Squads can only take a Dedicated Transport if no Personal Teleporters are taken.
-Mean if you want your Terminators to get up-close-and-personal, you're gonna have to Deep Strike them, put them in a Stormraven or give up a Dreadknight for a LR.
-Every vehicle has Fortitude. The driver/pilot can cast this psychic power and any Crew Shaken/Stunned results are immediately nullified.

-Grand Masters' Grand Strategy can only be applied to: Infantry, Jump Infantry, Monstrous Creatures and Walkers (but not Independent Characters, Inquisitorial Henchmen or Mordrak and his Ghost Knights).
More to come.

You're a naughty boy, Puma.

Soon, the whining about revealing info on leaked codices will begin, but you won't hear any from me.

Lay that funky info on me, buddy.

I fear someone may well be losing their job over this...

I've heard the exact opposite claims about the units you just described from someone else who has a reported PDF copy of the new codex. I believe nothing until my FLGS has the Black Box copy of the codex and I've read it myself.

filbert wrote:I fear someone may well be losing their job over this...

hopefully Matt Ward

OverwatchCNC wrote:I've heard the exact opposite claims about the units you just described from someone else who has a reported PDF copy of the new codex. I believe nothing until my FLGS has the Black Box copy of the codex and I've read it myself.

Makes me wonder if they're intentionally leaking bad PDFs. That would be a clever way of pitting the rumor mongers against each other. Puma, by chance did this PDF contain an explaination of what the wargear does, or is it just unit information/psychic powers and army rules?

Dammit, if only someone could post a link

Chad Warden wrote:

filbert wrote:I fear someone may well be losing their job over this...

hopefully Matt Ward

Actually hopefully whatever marketing director who keeps thinking that scaling back and raising prices 3 times a year is a business plan that can last another decade.

daedalus wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote:I've heard the exact opposite claims about the units you just described from someone else who has a reported PDF copy of the new codex. I believe nothing until my FLGS has the Black Box copy of the codex and I've read it myself.

Makes me wonder if they're intentionally leaking bad PDFs. That would be a clever way of pitting the rumor mongers against each other. Puma, by chance did this PDF contain an explaination of what the wargear does, or is it just unit information/psychic powers and army rules?

The one I have contains everything but wargear. However, a lot of the wargear is explained on the unit entry pages. The one I have contains unit entries with fluff, army list (w/point cost) and things like psychic powers.

bah.. Doubt anyone's losing any job. I really don't think this stuff is leaked at all.. I think GW plants these things in different places around the interwebs with old PDFs and small/blury photos of their kid's transformers because they want to keep their "don't tell them what's coming" policy, but still make all the nerds wet their pants. In then end, the still sell us more army men.

I downloaded the leaked codex. Reading through it now. It looks scanned and has pen notes on it. Given that and the amount of text in it, it looks legit. Looks like the other leaked codices I've read over the years as well. There's a decent enough chance it's a playtest copy and some things will be changed, but it looks like the real thing. At what point in development is beyond me, but it looks real.

I won't say where to get it since that's probably breaking a Dakka rule or two, but if you're an intrepid searcher you can find anything.

Brother SRM wrote:I downloaded the leaked codex. Reading through it now. It looks scanned and has pen notes on it.

Yep, that's the one. If anyone has any questions, post em. Otherwise, I'm just going to post interesting tidbits I find.

Necros wrote:bah.. Doubt anyone's losing any job. I really don't think this stuff is leaked at all.. I think GW plants these things in different places around the interwebs with old PDFs and small/blury photos of their kid's transformers because they want to keep their "don't tell them what's coming" policy, but still make all the nerds wet their pants. In then end, the still sell us more army men.

Thing is though, people do and have lost jobs over things like this. Hell, GW employees can even be fired if they are found to frequent places like Dakka. Ask Mr 'Mystery'

So, is there anything besides "Grey Knights" in it.. like could you still do an inquisitor leading a bunch of stormtroopers? or, are we still stuck with the Demonhunters book for that? I'd think though the new book would make the old one invalid..... I was gonna just use the IG codex and count my inquisitor & his retinue as a regular HQ command squad but it'd be nice to have new & real rules

Anything on Henchmen taking a slot or not?

Thats pretty much the thing that concerns me most; along with any changes to Coteaz.

All I can say is that after seeing this, it definetly is real however it isn't a final copy.

Looks legit enough to get majority of everything you need out of it though.

Yep, grabbed it earlier too. The penned copy.

@Mr Hyena: There's a problem with discussing this because honestly, the wording is INCREDIBLY vague. Until an FAQ hits, or they reword it for the final copy, either or will pass.

@Necros: There's TONS of Inquisitorial Henchmen of all different varieties, which are used as a massive retinue. Coteaz can make these henchmen troops.


And if any mods take exception to me discussing this (notice I've only confirmed stuff that was rumoured before, and not included nuts and bolts like points costs!) then I'll be happy to delete it.

Mr Hyena wrote:Anything on Henchmen taking a slot or not?

Thats pretty much the thing that concerns me most; along with any changes to Coteaz.

Its... weird, it doesnt say specifically.. it actually seems it can go either way based on the wording..

I got a copy early this morning. However my damn printer was acting up and took me all day to print it! Crazy thing would jam after every page.

Does anyone know if the Blood Angels Stormraven has the Aegis Special rule?

Also I am looking forward to converting Inquisitor Karamazov and his Throne of Judgement.

Hmm...

On the basis of the wording so far I'll rule it as Henchmen do take a slot.

Its more balanced that way (no 1,000,000 Razorbacks/Chimeras) and it means also pure =I= is possible. Much fairer.

lunarman wrote:Dammit, if only someone could post a link

..then it would be removed, swiftly.

lunarman wrote:Dammit, if only someone could post a link

No giving directions to illegally download PDFs either, folks..

Yep, Hyena, that's how I would take it too. But there's the wording that an Inquisitor's retinue doesn't count towards the FOC, so I could see how someone could easily loophole it.

I'd still say they do fill troop slots just to avoid the fabled Chimeraspam-From-Hell(tm) list

Mr Hyena wrote:Hmm...

On the basis of the wording so far I'll rule it as Henchmen do take a slot.

Its more balanced that way (no 1,000,000 Razorbacks/Chimeras) and it means also pure =I= is possible. Much fairer.

"This unit does not use up a force organisation slot." I don't see how that can be interpreted with any sort of ambiguity.

Alrighty: Moderator Frazzled says:
No points cost listing.
No links to where you can download it.
No detailed listing of actual language from the codex.
We thank you for your compliance citizen.

No giving directions to illegally download PDFs either, folks.

Right, after taking another look at the exact wording of Coteaz's rule, I'm almost sure they take a slot. GW, if you're reading, best to change that so it's a bit more obvious. As Frazzled decreed, I can't quote it, but trust me, I'm 90% sure they intend them to take a slot per squad. Bear in mind, this doesn't stop the 3-man and a Razorback squads, just limits them to 6 (Which is still a LOT of firepower if one thinks about it.)

Neconilis wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:Hmm...

On the basis of the wording so far I'll rule it as Henchmen do take a slot.

Its more balanced that way (no 1,000,000 Razorbacks/Chimeras) and it means also pure =I= is possible. Much fairer.

"This unit does not use up a force organisation slot." I don't see how that can be interpreted with any sort of ambiguity.

Because if it doesn't take up a slot; its going to lead to the mother of all cheesy lists.

See the 3-man Retinue squads with Razorbacks/Chimeras.

Frazzled wrote:Alrighty: Moderator Frazzled says:
No points cost listing.
No links to where you can download it.
No detailed listing of actual language from the codex.
We thank you for your compliance citizen.

...alright, we'll behave...

Fixed, didn't see mod post until after I posted.

Neconilis wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:Hmm...

On the basis of the wording so far I'll rule it as Henchmen do take a slot.

Its more balanced that way (no 1,000,000 Razorbacks/Chimeras) and it means also pure =I= is possible. Much fairer.

"This unit does not use up a force organisation slot." I don't see how that can be interpreted with any sort of ambiguity.

Extremely wishful thinking?

Do remember that the downloadable copy is at least one month old. Stuff might or can happen pretty quick in the days leading up to the printers deadline.

According to the pdf you get one per inquisitor, and they don't take up a slot.

However, if you take the cheap Vanilla Dreadnought priced Coteaz, they become troops.

Also Coteaz is now what the mystics were in the old codex, but he also works against anything coming in from reserve within 12" (outflank, opponent's table edge...)

And to settle the debate we had in the previous thread, GK can NOT use Chimeras. ONLY Inquisitors and Inquisitorial Henchmen can use them. So your GK will be stuck in their Rhinos, Razorbacks, Stormravens and Land Raiders.

Thats the thing; with Coteaz you can get the 9 squads in 9 Chimeras if they don't count; all with meltas. Isn't that a bit much?

Dysartes wrote:

Neconilis wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:Hmm...

On the basis of the wording so far I'll rule it as Henchmen do take a slot.

Its more balanced that way (no 1,000,000 Razorbacks/Chimeras) and it means also pure =I= is possible. Much fairer.

"This unit does not use up a force organisation slot." I don't see how that can be interpreted with any sort of ambiguity.

Extremely wishful thinking?

Extremely, extremely wishful thinking, I'd say. Based on the wording in the codex, it seems pretty clear Coteaz's rule overwrites the Warband's for FOC placement and Inquisitor restriction.

Whoever was asking, the Stormraven does have The Aegis.

Mr Hyena wrote:

Neconilis wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:Hmm...

On the basis of the wording so far I'll rule it as Henchmen do take a slot.

Its more balanced that way (no 1,000,000 Razorbacks/Chimeras) and it means also pure =I= is possible. Much fairer.

"This unit does not use up a force organisation slot." I don't see how that can be interpreted with any sort of ambiguity.

Because if it doesn't take up a slot; its going to lead to the mother of all cheesy lists.

See the 3-man Retinue squads with Razorbacks/Chimeras.

The way it seems to read though is that you require an Inquisitor for 'each' unit of henchman. Unless you take Cortez, then they are taken as troops. So it doesn't appear that unlimited amounts are possible.

OMFG!!

"For each inquisitor in your army you may also include a unit of 3-12 henchmen, chosen in any combination"

Death-Cult Assassins - now only have Uncanny Reflexes (5+ invulnerable save)
No More - Independent
No More - Fearless
No More - Inflitrate
No More FUN!!

Henchmen as one big retinue? so like, you get an inquisitor and he can have a platoon or something?

I was hoping to still be able to have it be more squad based, like you have your HQ inquisitor, up to 6 units of stormtroopers or guardsmen or whatever.. I guess I'm just looking for an alternate way to play my guard army by using my same guardsmen troop models, but throwing in inquisitors and other goodies instead of leman russ spam

Yep, that seems the most plausible explanation. And Henchmen can get heavy weapons very cheaply. Not IG-level cheap, but cheap enough that you won't mind when they inevitably blow themselves up with plasma guns

Sadly Necros, allies rules are totally gone. Nary a whiff of them left. So sadly, unless your opponent agrees to it, Inquisitors are off-limits to Guard.

Arander wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:

Neconilis wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:Hmm...

On the basis of the wording so far I'll rule it as Henchmen do take a slot.

Its more balanced that way (no 1,000,000 Razorbacks/Chimeras) and it means also pure =I= is possible. Much fairer.

"This unit does not use up a force organisation slot." I don't see how that can be interpreted with any sort of ambiguity.

Because if it doesn't take up a slot; its going to lead to the mother of all cheesy lists.

See the 3-man Retinue squads with Razorbacks/Chimeras.

The way it seems to read though is that you require an Inquisitor for 'each' unit of henchman. Unless you take Cortez, then they are taken as troops. So it doesn't appear that unlimited amounts are possible.

Yeah, but the cheese list takes Coteaz as its HQ; unlocking the choice. Take your obligatory 2 Grey Knight troops. Fill the rest of the points with 3-man Retinue squads with transports.

So, on the Paladin squad:

Are we assuming a Nemesis warding stave is an improved PF+SS?

Also, I hope they get the ability to take a LR dedicated transport.

Seems like the assertion is correct: Max of 6 Henchmen units. It simply says that it makes them troops and removes the limit per number of inquisitors.

Like that Coteaz is a Mystic (12" bubble) and that he can re-roll the Sieze the Initiative, even if it is your enemy rolling it.

Grakmar: As far as I can see, the armoury stuff isn't in this copy, so I can't tell you either way. I CAN tell you, however, that the codex doesn't rule out LR transports for them.

Not having the armoury pages is a little annoying. I'm really interested to see what the nemesis weapons do, as well as psycannons, psybolt ammunition, etc...

Wow, Dreadknights are a lot cheaper than I thought they'd be.

I know, it's a pain in the back side seeing all these lovely big upgrades but not knowing what they actually do.

Puma: Cripes, I just noticed that when you pointed it out. That is scary cheap.

puma713 wrote:Seems like the assertion is correct: Max of 6 Henchmen units. It simply says that it makes them troops and removes the limit per number of inquisitors.

Like that Coteaz is a Mystic (12" bubble) and that he can re-roll the Sieze the Initiative, even if it is your enemy rolling it.

So they count as troops (with regards to slots) thanks to Coteaz? I can begin to like this codex alot now if true.

Yep, the rule states that absolutely Coteaz makes Henchmen troops.

Mr Hyena wrote:

puma713 wrote:Seems like the assertion is correct: Max of 6 Henchmen units. It simply says that it makes them troops and removes the limit per number of inquisitors.

Like that Coteaz is a Mystic (12" bubble) and that he can re-roll the Sieze the Initiative, even if it is your enemy rolling it.

So they count as troops (with regards to slots) thanks to Coteaz? I can begin to like this codex alot now if true.

Doesn't look like they count as troops, they actually ARE troop choices. So no terminators or GK squads if you take all Henchman. But it does let you build a really nice Inquisitorial force from what I'm reading, which is way cool.

Arander, it doesn't bar GK as troops. So you can actually mix them!

(Wow, I'm doing a LOT of posting tonight )

Mr Hyena wrote:

Neconilis wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:Hmm...

On the basis of the wording so far I'll rule it as Henchmen do take a slot.

Its more balanced that way (no 1,000,000 Razorbacks/Chimeras) and it means also pure =I= is possible. Much fairer.

"This unit does not use up a force organisation slot." I don't see how that can be interpreted with any sort of ambiguity.

Because if it doesn't take up a slot; its going to lead to the mother of all cheesy lists.

See the 3-man Retinue squads with Razorbacks/Chimeras.

To be as hint-ish as possible without being too specific: Henchmen don't take a ForceOrg slot the same way Tyrant Guard don't take a ForceOrg slot. If you buy a Tyrant, you are allowed to buy ONE unit of Tyrant Guard. If you buy two Tyrants, you can buy TWO units of Tyrant Guard. Otherwise, you can't buy Tyrant Guard. The same goes for Inquisitors and Henchmen.

Paladins don't have a Dedicated Transport entry. And none of the LRs are in the Dedicated Transport section, to whoever was musing about transports.

Check that: None of the terminators have a dedicated transport entry.

Any info on what the Dreadknight's weapons do?

Nope, Leenus, we don't have the armoury pages, so no-one knows.

Mr Hyena wrote:Thats the thing; with Coteaz you can get the 9 squads in 9 Chimeras if they don't count; all with meltas. Isn't that a bit much?

No, not at all. GW would love for you to buy all that!

...This is a GW book and they've made a rule that could result in a lot of disallowed sales.

IT'S A CONSPIRACY, INFORM THE PRESSES!



Nah, I kid. As far as I can tell, Henchmen squads are limited to 6 with Coteaz.

Absolutionis wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:

Neconilis wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:Hmm...

On the basis of the wording so far I'll rule it as Henchmen do take a slot.

Its more balanced that way (no 1,000,000 Razorbacks/Chimeras) and it means also pure =I= is possible. Much fairer.

"This unit does not use up a force organisation slot." I don't see how that can be interpreted with any sort of ambiguity.

Because if it doesn't take up a slot; its going to lead to the mother of all cheesy lists.

See the 3-man Retinue squads with Razorbacks/Chimeras.

To be as hint-ish as possible without being too specific: Henchmen don't take a ForceOrg slot the same way Tyrant Guard don't take a ForceOrg slot. If you buy a Tyrant, you are allowed to buy ONE unit of Tyrant Guard. If you buy two Tyrants, you can buy TWO units of Tyrant Guard. Otherwise, you can't buy Tyrant Guard. The same goes for Inquisitors and Henchmen.

Except for Coteaz, who removes that. (Who I am converting into a Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor dammit. I will do it or SOMEONE WILL BURN)

I'm gonna go with him, some Elite Inquisitors, my 6 Henchmen squads, an Assassin and chimeras. Lovely army.

I totally want the jokeaero ape model someone posted in the rumours thread awhile back, clinging to a pole while holding a bolter and a boltgun in it's hand and foot. LOVE IT, I hope they're a real unit just for that reason! haha!

edit: I play space wolves but i still want to see these monkeys on the table!

here's a link to the reaper mini store where you can buy one for only 7 bucks:

http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/chronoscope/sku-up/50214

Hyena, sadly, as far as I can see, Inquisitors are strictly HQs. So no elite Inquisitors for you!

Tetrisphreak: You might as well order that model now, because they are very much real units!

puma713 wrote:Seems like the assertion is correct: Max of 6 Henchmen units. It simply says that it makes them troops and removes the limit per number of inquisitors.

I don't see that as black and white at all. Coteaz allows them to be taken as troop choices instead of as elite choices. Nowhere does it say that they now become troop choices which also occupy a force organisation slot. Nothing changes the, does not occupy a force organisation slot, property in their listing.

He also removes the unit limit holding them to the number of inquisitors in your army.

I'm not here to debate the sense of it and whether it should be or not, but what they've currently written does not stop more than six warbands at a time.

Ooooh noes...there goes that. Hmm... will just spend the points elsewhere. Actually, I've neglected to check the pure =I= options for Elites slot.

I don't see that as black and white at all. Coteaz allows them to be taken as troop choices instead of as elite choices. Nowhere does it say that they now become troop choices which also occupy a force organisation slot. Nothing changes the, does not occupy a force organisation slot, property in their listing.

He also removes the unit limit holding them to the number of inquisitors in your army.

I admit; its cheesy, but 9 Special Weapon Henchmen squads in 9 chimeras would be pretty funny and vengeful.

But, the Paladins are WS5 and if the rumours of a force halberd giving +1I are true then they will have I5 and you can take the halberd for free.

Also, ANY number of models in the Paladin squad can replace their nemesis force sword/halberd whatever for the warding stave for +20 points

So, ALL of your paladins can have the staves which are power weapons and also give the 2++ save if the rumours are true!

It seems that Paladin squads could indeed be very very awesome if also very expensive. Still not sure I'll take them at their costs though...


In fact, any amount of normal terminators and even PAGK strike squads can take the staves. WOW. Very expensive troops if you do take them but how hard would they be to kill?!?

I've read through the entire codex, and frankly I'm not too horrified. Daemons are railed against this codex. They will almost invariably lose every single game against the Grey Knights, since there's no rules like in the last codex to balance the game. If there was a sort of "without number" rule for daemons who fight GK, things'd be peachy.

Overall I like the codex, but I wish Daemonhosts didn't totally suck, and I think Dreadknights are a bit silly. Most of the other stuff I'm pretty alright with.

Yeah it's a lot less mental than we first suspected. The main thing I could criticize is Dreadknight is undercosted and (a modelling problem) how are we going to tell the difference between different PAGK? They have 3 different squads with potentially the same weapons, it's gonna be tricky to pick out the differences.

100 pts for 5 Space marines, all with power weapons, nearly always strength 5, cause deep-strike mishaps and stormbolters.

WTF!!!!!

Nothing can take these guys.

Assuming that a nemesis force sword is a power weapon and a force sword.

If its "Counts as troops" they are not in FOC if its "Taken as troops" then you can only have 6

there is nothing to prevent you from taking another inquisitor to have a total of 7 henchmen (6 as troops 1 without FOC) which is still spammy

Gibbsey wrote:If its "Counts as troops" they are not in FOC if its "Taken as troops" then you can only have 6

there is nothing to prevent you from taking another inquisitor to have a total of 7 henchmen (6 as troops 1 without FOC) which is still spammy

It says something to the effect of "are Troops Choices".

Any news on Apothecary for Paladins? as in is it an upgrade or added to the unit? (55+75 or 75)

While the leaked codex states 'Any model may replace his XX for a warding stave"....the leaked dex does not have the armoury/wargear section. The stave may be further restricted in that section (IE Only one model in a unit may use a warding stave). I hope everyone of them can take it for 25 freaking points!

Upgraded, sadly.

Did anyone else notice that the razorbacks are listed as (tank, fast)?

tech66 wrote:OMFG!!

"For each inquisitor in your army you may also include a unit of 3-12 henchmen, chosen in any combination"

Death-Cult Assassins - now only have Uncanny Reflexes (5+ invulnerable save)
No More - Independent
No More - Fearless
No More - Inflitrate
No More FUN!!

I think it's lots of fun to have WS 5, S 4, I 6, A 2 models with power weapons that are cheaper than Marines.

It makes Howling Banshees cry themselves to sleep. And furthers my counts-as-how-Eldar-should-really-be-given-the-fluff army.

Oh, well, that's interesting, Manimal, you are totally right. Tank, fast, indeed.

So the henchman as troops thing.... is it the same kind of henchmen from Demonhunters, like you can have a bazillion mystics running around? Or can you kind of "fake it' with a squad full of warrior henchmen, and then use them like you would use stormtroopers?

I'm just thinking more for fluffy reasons, I'd really like to have an inquisitor that can lead around a few squads of badass folks.

Yep, you can have tons of mystics running about or you can (this is what I plan to do) use Warrior Acolytes as Stormies.

Gibbsey wrote:Any news on Apothecary for Paladins? as in is it an upgrade or added to the unit? (55+75 or 75)

He's an upgrade.

Manimal wrote:Did anyone else notice that the razorbacks are listed as (tank, fast)?

It was mentioned in one of the other threads that they were a "copy paste" from Codex: Blood Angels with the GK rules additions. I'm skeptical if that one will hold out but I'll be pleasantly surprised if it does.

Also, every vehicle has Fortitude. The driver/pilot can cast this psychic power and any Crew Shaken/Stunned results are immediately nullified.

I must admit, I was rather...surprised to see Malleus, Xenos and Hereticus inquistors avaiable. That does not bode well for the Sisters of Battle, I guess.

Still, this is certainly looking interesting. The Dreadknight is hideously undercosted though. It can whomp the snot out of a well upgraded Daemon Prince before you start buying stuff for it, and that's ignoring the Preferred Enemy part of things.

Strike Squads are still my absolute Gold Star Unit in the codex. Their upgrades and weapons are surprisingly cheap.

I can see this being exceptionally strong as a codex. I mean, their troops are better than most peoples elites.

GhostRecon wrote:

Dysartes wrote:

Neconilis wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:Hmm...

On the basis of the wording so far I'll rule it as Henchmen do take a slot.

Its more balanced that way (no 1,000,000 Razorbacks/Chimeras) and it means also pure =I= is possible. Much fairer.

"This unit does not use up a force organisation slot." I don't see how that can be interpreted with any sort of ambiguity.

Extremely wishful thinking?

Extremely, extremely wishful thinking, I'd say. Based on the wording in the codex, it seems pretty clear Coteaz's rule overwrites the Warband's for FOC placement and Inquisitor restriction.

Perhaps I wasn't clear, Ghost - the wishful thinking referred to ambiguity regarding the quoted rule. I haven't downloaded the PDF, so can't comment on it's wording.

Going by hq and characters in the dex i wonder if they are going to be releasing expansion codices like with catachans way back?

Costing the dreadknight the same as a Valkyrie, when carnifexes have worse stats and cost 1/3 more per model, makes me absolutely upset. T7? T7?!? AAUUUUGH!!


/end hate

The 2+ save means my SW missile spam won't efficiently take it out, and they have 4+ saves from my lascannons. I would run 3 if i were playing GK, for sure.

Maybe my TWC can take them out in CC...Just maybe...

daedalus wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote:I've heard the exact opposite claims about the units you just described from someone else who has a reported PDF copy of the new codex. I believe nothing until my FLGS has the Black Box copy of the codex and I've read it myself.

Makes me wonder if they're intentionally leaking bad PDFs. That would be a clever way of pitting the rumor mongers against each other. Puma, by chance did this PDF contain an explaination of what the wargear does, or is it just unit information/psychic powers and army rules?

I have a friend who works in GW and he was telling me, after i had asked him about the GK rumours, that they employ someone specifically to leak false info to the web, but who knows eh! won't know until april eh!!!

Jon Garrett wrote:I must admit, I was rather...surprised to see Malleus, Xenos and Hereticus inquistors avaiable. That does not bode well for the Sisters of Battle, I guess.

I don't know, I think it far more likely that they're simply going the stand alone route with the Sisters of Battle. Or it could be they'll simply print the same Inquisitor rules in the Sisters of Battle book as well.

I don't have a copy. I'm not excited.

Wink.

Wink.

Don't know if he's been listed yet, but the Jokaero Weaponsmith:

If he is in an Inquisitorial unit, roll a D6 before deployment. Add +1 to the roll for every Jokaero beyond the first:

1 - no effect
2 - all non-template weapon have their range increased by 2"
3 - all models in the unit treat their armor as 1 better than it is
4 - all shooting from this unit is Rending
5 - all models in the unit have a 5++
6 - Roll twice on the table and apply both results. Ignore duplicates.

derek wrote:

Jon Garrett wrote:I must admit, I was rather...surprised to see Malleus, Xenos and Hereticus inquistors avaiable. That does not bode well for the Sisters of Battle, I guess.

I don't know, I think it far more likely that they're simply going the stand alone route with the Sisters of Battle. Or it could be they'll simply print the same Inquisitor rules in the Sisters of Battle book as well.

Which would invalidate everyone's army that plays =][= and is opposed to using a SC. Not that I'd mind considering how Ward took the flavor of every unit in my army. Looks like I'll be writing my own codex.

Requin wrote:

derek wrote:

Jon Garrett wrote:I must admit, I was rather...surprised to see Malleus, Xenos and Hereticus inquistors avaiable. That does not bode well for the Sisters of Battle, I guess.

I don't know, I think it far more likely that they're simply going the stand alone route with the Sisters of Battle. Or it could be they'll simply print the same Inquisitor rules in the Sisters of Battle book as well.

Which would invalidate everyone's army that plays =][= and is opposed to using a SC. Not that I'd mind considering how Ward took the flavor of every unit in my army. Looks like I'll be writing my own codex.

Welcome to 5th edition, I guess. Seems that these days if you want to play an alternate army it requires special characters. It goes along nicely with the recent Jervis quote that they absolutely want you to use your special characters in every single game.

**Changes special charater's name to: Captain DeeEyeWhy So'whut**

There. All fixed.

Sheesh, it's a rule set - as long as you use it, NO one can complain about what freakin' name or fluff you give the model! Well, they CAN, but you should just punch them until they fall down. And then you should kick them.

derek wrote:

Requin wrote:

derek wrote:

Jon Garrett wrote:I must admit, I was rather...surprised to see Malleus, Xenos and Hereticus inquistors avaiable. That does not bode well for the Sisters of Battle, I guess.

I don't know, I think it far more likely that they're simply going the stand alone route with the Sisters of Battle. Or it could be they'll simply print the same Inquisitor rules in the Sisters of Battle book as well.

Which would invalidate everyone's army that plays =][= and is opposed to using a SC. Not that I'd mind considering how Ward took the flavor of every unit in my army. Looks like I'll be writing my own codex.

Welcome to 5th edition, I guess. Seems that these days if you want to play an alternate army it requires special characters. It goes along nicely with the recent Jervis quote that they absolutely want you to use your special characters in every single game.

I've never understood this fury and rage. Why not just refer to them as Inquisitor Genericpants if you really don't want to think of it as Coteaz in every battle? Or for that matter, refluff yourself your own special character who is a counts-as whomeever? Maybe another mechanized easy chair was found and it was given to Inqusitor Khalamazov?

This is what I planned to do anyway. Inquisitor Taveran (my own Inquisitor character) is just going to use Coteaz's rules so I can get stormtroopers.

I must admit, I've instantly started looking over a freshly converted Inquistor Lord I made yesterday, seeinghow I'd need to customize him to make him a useful Counts As Corteaz. I see a Hammer in his future, and the loss of his Storm Bolter...

Going to have to play more lists tonight...seeing definite potential across the board.

Am I the only one excited about taking 12 guys with 12 plasma guns?

Nah, I'm excited about taking 12 guys with 12 MELTAGUNS :

I do not believe this codex is real. This is the same point in the rumor cycle that we got the fake nid dex, and the fake blood angels dex. I'll believe what is and isn't in the codex when the black box comes in.

Find it kinda wierd that there isn't a option for GK HQ to swap there termie armour for AA......Hope it isn't for real.

sharkticon wrote:I do not believe this codex is real. This is the same point in the rumor cycle that we got the fake nid dex, and the fake blood angels dex. I'll believe what is and isn't in the codex when the black box comes in.

If it's not real, there was a LOT of work done on the fluff to make it seem authentic. There is a description (fluff) for every unit entry. The only thing lacking is the wargear.

Same with the other two fake dexes I mentioned. I do believe that many of the concepts in it are real. The aforementioned fake dexes did include many ideas that made it into the final. I think it was leaked by GW marketing to get us buying, but I think that like the last two "codex leaks" this is not real.

Holycrusader27 wrote:Find it kinda wierd that there isn't a option for GK HQ to swap there termie armour for AA......Hope it isn't for real.

Only Grand Masters and Brother-Captains have Terminator armour. All the others have Artificier armour or worse.


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sharkticon wrote:Same with the other two fake dexes I mentioned. I do believe that many of the concepts in it are real. The aforementioned fake dexes did include many ideas that made it into the final. I think it was leaked by GW marketing to get us buying, but I think that like the last two "codex leaks" this is not real.

Normally, I'd agree with you. But nearly everything in this leak has matched what respected rumormongers have been reporting. And things like an entire page on the fluff of Nemesis Dreadknights make me think otherwise.

And having seen the "Fake" nid and ba codexes I can tell you that this looks nothing like them. That said it could very easily be the last cycle before the final but I get the feeling it's a good place to start if your looking at GK's. Holds together far to well. My only concern is the actual stats of the Psycannon cause if it's really St7 Heavy 3 Rending this codex is going to make SW's look like 3 year olds.

For 2k points, this could be a valid army?

Draigo
Librarian + 4 psychic powers
10 Paladins, Apothecary, 4x Warding Staves
Vindicare Assassin
3x Dreadknights

Not saying it's any good, but wondering if it's legal?

What's squad size on Paladin? 5-10, 1-10, 5?

At this stage I think we're looking at leaks and rumors that hold quite a bit of credibility. If not spot on they're most likely very close. Personally I'm with puma on the fake dex that we have seen due to the shear amount of fluff written in addition to the confirmation of most rumors.

I personally believe that it's an old pre production copy that's outdated and that changes will be made to it before the true release.

I'm just excited for the new models period. Swords, spears, falcions, hammers my god the bitz heaven, not even getting into the knight helms that'll come with every box. Shiny bitz for terminators and honor guards, fluff pieces for unique chapters. The dreadknights I could do without as a model but I've been working on a dreadnought with knees and elbows based off the GW's showcase on their website that had a thousand sons pre heresy forgeworld mk 4 dread upgraded useing sentinel legs. I figure if I can make a sword out of plasticard and slap a dreadknight heavy psycannon on it bam there's my proxy dreadknight.

Stuff that jump out at me
Corteaz is simply cheap, I expect to see it in most power lists since his rules are pretty good even without henchman.

Dreadnaughts can get psybolt ammo.... if it is +1S you can get 4xBS4 S8 hits at a vendetta's price, with fortitude and the tarpit power of a dread. Don't know how Dreadknight's weapons stack up.

@puma
I knew GK like there termie armour but still the option would be nice since they all come with Iron halo except the libbie. My only real gripe besides only 1 FA choice

sourclams wrote:For 2k points, this could be a valid army?

Draigo
Librarian + 4 psychic powers
10 Paladins, Apothecary, 4x Warding Staves
Vindicare Assassin
3x Dreadknights

Not saying it's any good, but wondering if it's legal?

What's squad size on Paladin? 5-10, 1-10, 5?

Starts with 1, adding 9 more.

That build is about 1700 pts, without gear on the Librarian or the Dreadknights.

Can squads of 1 paladin take a psycannon?

If so... Roflpotato.

Holycrusader27 wrote:@puma
I knew GK like there termie armour but still the option would be nice since they all come with Iron halo except the libbie. My only real gripe besides only 1 FA choice

It's an old bit of fluff for the Grey Knights that terminator armour is a sign of rank and that after justicar terminator armour is the standard. The big gripe I have with this is that with your best CC squads mounted in the stuff you're not going to be able to sweeping advance everyone, they just get away if they break.

sourclams wrote:Can squads of 1 paladin take a psycannon?

If so... Roflpotato.

No, for every 5 paladins, two paladins may take. . .

So Meltaguns are as effective against Paladins as plasma guns at less than 12 inches? (Melta IDing with wounds and Plasma getting double shots but needing 2 to kill) also meltaguns being assault weapons and plamaguns being rapid fire...

Its the dread knights that are awfully cheap that scare the daylights out of me.

Even tricked out, they are way cheaper than a tyranofex and about twice as effective.

imweasel wrote:Its the dread knights that are awfully cheap that scare the daylights out of me.

Even tricked out, they are way cheaper than a tyranofex and about twice as effective.

+1. But i'm honestly jealous as well.

+2 to that. I figured these things would cost something similar to a Land Raider, but not even close.

I'm a little disappointed with this codex, and so I hope it's a fake. I wanted Castellan Crowe to be better, and be an IC. If that doesn't change in the final version, hopefully generic Grand Master will be able to trade terminator armor for Artificier armor.

imweasel wrote:
Its the dread knights that are awfully cheap that scare the daylights out of me.

Even tricked out, they are way cheaper than a tyranofex and about twice as effective.

+1. But i'm honestly jealous as well.

Yeah, if that ends up being the actual cost, us nid players got screwed big time.

And if that's the real cost, I'm going to find the nearest Blood Angel player and cram a Heavy Psycannon down his throat.

I don't even know the HPC's stats but it's gonna be awesome judging by the cost and fact that only a Dreadknight can use one.

And having seen the "Fake" nid and ba codexes I can tell you that this looks nothing like them. That said it could very easily be the last cycle before the final but I get the feeling it's a good place to start if your looking at GK's. Holds together far to well. My only concern is the actual stats of the Psycannon cause if it's really St7 Heavy 3 Rending this codex is going to make SW's look like 3 year olds.

+1. This pdf is a real codex minus the artwork and final touches. The others were typed in Microsoft word.

So, 10 IG equivalent dudes with plasma guns for 140pts sounds a wee bit silly. So does Draigo and making the entire Realm of Chaos his afternoon stomping grounds.

I sense much "hurrdurr" with this book.

I saw this thread 10 minutes after I plugged in my new kindle.

Fate is kind.


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Vaktathi wrote:So, 10 IG equivalent dudes with plasma guns for 140pts sounds a wee bit silly. So does Draigo and making the entire Realm of Chaos his afternoon stomping grounds.

I sense much "hurrdurr" with this book.

Someone must have remembered this old picture.

Also, users of Gabriel Seth might be a little miffed that the Brotherhood Champion can do nearly all his tricks at less cost:

WS 7, Initiative 5

Stances:

After assault moves are made but before blows are struck, he can perform one of three battle stances: Sword Storm, Blade Shield, or Rapier Strike.

Sword Storm: The champion makes a single attack for every enemy in base-to-base contact.
Blade Shield: Cannot make attacks, but can re-roll all failed saves this round.
Rapier Strike: Makes D3 attacks towards an IC or MC at Initiative 10.

Oh, did I mention that he carries a Nemesis Force Sword that can re-roll wounds. Oh, and did I mention that his entire unit can re-roll failed To-Hit rolls.

Dunno about Gabriel Seth, but he also has a 2+/4++. And he's cheaper.

Edit: Oh, and he has Hammerhand.

Ahhhh!!!! But he has less wounds and doesn't kick people that rolls ones in the face!!!!! But seriously yeah, the BC is pretty cool.

Hulksmash wrote:Ahhhh!!!! But he has less wounds and doesn't kick people that rolls ones in the face!!!!! But seriously yeah, the BC is pretty cool.

Good call, didn't notice the 1 wound.

I'm liking this unit: three plasma cannon servitors in a chimera with Corteaz. Not counting the cost of Corteaz (assuming you were planning on using him to unlock multiple henchmen units), it costs the same as a bare dreadnought. Combined with Corteaz's old-school mystic ability, you can effectively deny a important chunk of the table against deep-striking or flanking units.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:I saw this thread 10 minutes after I plugged in my new kindle.

Fate is kind.


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Vaktathi wrote:So, 10 IG equivalent dudes with plasma guns for 140pts sounds a wee bit silly. So does Draigo and making the entire Realm of Chaos his afternoon stomping grounds.

I sense much "hurrdurr" with this book.

Someone must have remembered this old picture.

Nice, good ole First Edition Paladin in Hell. Win.

CROWE ISNT AN INDEPENDENT CHARACTER...yeah...there had to be a drawback.

Mr Hyena wrote:

Neconilis wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:Hmm...

On the basis of the wording so far I'll rule it as Henchmen do take a slot.

Its more balanced that way (no 1,000,000 Razorbacks/Chimeras) and it means also pure =I= is possible. Much fairer.

"This unit does not use up a force organisation slot." I don't see how that can be interpreted with any sort of ambiguity.

Because if it doesn't take up a slot; its going to lead to the mother of all cheesy lists.

See the 3-man Retinue squads with Razorbacks/Chimeras.

It does not take up a slot, but there is a limit to how many you can have. Read the sentence preceding it

lol looks like i missed out searching for the download no luck so far xD by the looks of it you guys are enjoying the read

Am I reading this correctly? Mordrak can be joined by a unit of ghost knights, which are cheaper than regular GKT, and for which you can purchase a wide range of options for each of the ghost knights. When Mordack suffers an unsaved wound then a ghost knight appears. The ghost knight that appears as a result of a wound has only default wargear (i.e., no options).

I see two interpretations.

1. These are brand new "free" ghost knights that are in addition to the one's you purchased.

or

2. The apparating ghost knights are the ones you purchased and thus Mordrak starts the game with no ghost knights on the board but you still have to purchase a set number of them and they only start appearing after he takes wounds.

Number 2 seems unlikely. Why specify their options if they can't have any and why provide the ability to buy more of them than Mordrak has wounds?

Number 1 seems kind of unlikely as well. In this case (i.e., the ghost knights that appear for each wound are in addition to the purchased squad of ghost knights), then the fact that the ghost terminators are cheaper, come with additional rules, and that it will be quite unlikely to have Mordrak die before all the ghosts are dead, makes him and his ghost terminators a great deal.

It's number 1. He buys the upgraded one, and each wound gives him an additional unupgraded one.

Cerebrium, thanks. That's how I was reading it as well. It just seemed too good a deal so I started doubting my interpretation.

It is a VERY nice deal.

Hah, through today I've done more research on GK than I seem to have done on the resto of my armies combined

EDIT-DELETE

Rumours have put the Warp Stabilization Field as ignoring perils of the warp on the vehicle that has it. However, it would appear (from my "sources") that Inquisitorial Chimera's have the option to take one, but don't have any psychic powers. I wonder what they REALLY do then... hmm.

Nearly everything in this codex, points-wise, seems like an insanely good deal.

Take Henchmen -
You could put together the equivalent of Stormtroopers from the IG book for 13 points a pop (vs 16).

Coteaz, for his insane metagame bonuses, is 100 points, and regular inquistors just 25? Compare to IG Ministorium Priests for 45.

Multi-melta servitors, 10 points a pop...wtf?

Death cult assassins...2 PW and WS5, S4, I6, A2 for cheaper than Banshees? Double WTF?

Vanilla Warrior Acolytes cheaper than vanilla Guardsmen?

At these insane points costs, a 2500 point 'Ard Boyz list would include more models than a mechvet guard army, with about 2x the effectiveness.

Henchmen Squad from hell (Shooty) - 207 points
3x Multi-Melta Servitors
Psychic
8x Warriors w/melta or plasma
Chimaera

Or, better yet, the CC version - 240 points
Banisher with Eviscerator
Crusader x 5 (tanks)
Assassin x 6
Chimaera

6 of either will run you about 1200 points and change.

That still leaves another 1200 or so for some REALLY heavy hitters (wide open elites and heavy slots). I haven't even gotten into comparison between vanilla SM and actual GK costs, but I'm sure they're just as bad.

There really will be no reason to play Guard or any kind of Marine list once this codex comes out if the points costs stay how they are. It'll take me all of 5 minutes to slap a ]I[ sticker on my mechvets and buy a few servitors and keep on truckin'.

My prayer is that the points costs in this leaked codex will undergo a major re-evaluation before official release.

All I hope is that if there is a points or whatever change; is that pure =I= should be competitive.

PolecatEZ wrote:I haven't even gotten into comparison between vanilla SM and actual GK costs, but I'm sure they're just as bad.

A run of the mill GK is 2 points more expensive than your run-of-the-mill Tactical marine.

Oh, and he has a Nemesis Force Weapon, a storm bolter, 3 different kinds of grenades, 2 different psychic powers and can become jump infantry for 6 pts. each.

Yeah. . .


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PolecatEZ wrote:
Henchmen Squad from hell (Shooty)

Or, better yet, the CC version

Yeah, Coteaz + Henchman Mob really make possibilities endless. If I was a GK player, I'd be excited about Henchmen.

Wow, I was looking at building an inquisitional army, and that looks quite scary.

12 Warrior Acolytes with 12 Plasma (or melta, or flame) guns, in a Chimera w/Hull Heavy Flamer - 223 pts

Seriously, that's broken. We're talking, completely un-fun to play with or against broken. I really really hope this isn't the final product.

I think you are over reacting Polecatz

Stormtroopers are BS4-there are no BS 4 henchmen-so that's a big reason for the point difference.

Servitor's sound cheap but you can't spam them because without an inquisitor they now mindlock on 1, 2 or 3. And Inquisitors are only HQ choices-so that is a big limit on them right there.

I do like your second example of the henchmen squad, Crusader/Assassin combo is going to bring the pain, with the eviscerator thrown in for good measure...Yikes!


I really like the rules for Karamazov's orbital relay strike---Only a couple guys left fighting that ork mob....

PolecatEZ wrote:Nearly everything in this codex, points-wise, seems like an insanely good deal.

Take Henchmen -
You could put together the equivalent of Stormtroopers from the IG book for 13 points a pop (vs 16).

Coteaz, for his insane metagame bonuses, is 100 points, and regular inquistors just 25? Compare to IG Ministorium Priests for 45.

Multi-melta servitors, 10 points a pop...wtf?

Death cult assassins...2 PW and WS5, S4, I6, A2 for cheaper than Banshees? Double WTF?

Vanilla Warrior Acolytes cheaper than vanilla Guardsmen?

1. No special mission, less BS
2. Regular inquisitors start with a pistol and carapace armor
3. Servitors mind lock themselves and their whole squad half the time
4. No fleet
5. No heavy weapons, no orders, no blobs.

after reading over this thread and the "leaked" dex, I'm kind of distraught. Was just about to start nids, but with imbalance of unit costs.... Looks like GW will lose sales with me over this. or at least I will hold off until I read the released dex front to back.

I hope this is fake, or that allot gets changed before printing. If they thoroughly play tested this and think its balanced with all armies (minus daemons, though some one threw out the idea of giving them with out number to balance), they need better play testers.

(prediction if its all true) Top 10 places of every tournament for the next few years, Grey Knights. Nids and Daemons will never be seen again.

Igenstilch wrote:after reading over this thread and the "leaked" dex, I'm kind of distraught. Was just about to start nids, but with imbalance of unit costs.... Looks like GW will lose sales with me over this. or at least I will hold off until I read the released dex front to back.

I hope this is fake, or that allot gets changed before printing. If they thoroughly play tested this and think its balanced with all armies (minus daemons, though some one threw out the idea of giving them with out number to balance), they need better play testers.

(prediction if its all true) Top 10 places of every tournament for the next few years, Grey Knights. Nids and Daemons will never be seen again.

I have no intention of shelving, or even cutting back on playing, my Nids.

Honestly, Inquisitors+warbands look like incredibly flexible fun units that can make an army unique. I really like the way they designed it to FEEL like an inquisitors requisitioned collection of people and things.

Also, I know everyone is caught up on DC Assassins for the warbands killing power. But Arco-Flaggelents seems ridiculous for their costs as well. 4 Str 5 WS 5 attacks with FNP for 15 points seems nuts.

Any idea what Truesilver armor does? Was it in the last DH book?

Igenstilch wrote:after reading over this thread and the "leaked" dex, I'm kind of distraught. Was just about to start nids, but with imbalance of unit costs.... Looks like GW will lose sales with me over this. or at least I will hold off until I read the released dex front to back.

I hope this is fake, or that allot gets changed before printing. If they thoroughly play tested this and think its balanced with all armies (minus daemons, though some one threw out the idea of giving them with out number to balance), they need better play testers.

(prediction if its all true) Top 10 places of every tournament for the next few years, Grey Knights. Nids and Daemons will never be seen again.

I'm curious how you think this army will have a bigger negative impact against nids then Dark Eldar did. That army seemed made to kill nids. This one just seems powerful, in line with the top tiers of armies. It should have no bigger effect on nids then it does on Eldar or Nilla marines.

ph34r wrote:

PolecatEZ wrote:Nearly everything in this codex, points-wise, seems like an insanely good deal.

Take Henchmen -
You could put together the equivalent of Stormtroopers from the IG book for 13 points a pop (vs 16).

Coteaz, for his insane metagame bonuses, is 100 points, and regular inquistors just 25? Compare to IG Ministorium Priests for 45.

Multi-melta servitors, 10 points a pop...wtf?

Death cult assassins...2 PW and WS5, S4, I6, A2 for cheaper than Banshees? Double WTF?

Vanilla Warrior Acolytes cheaper than vanilla Guardsmen?

1. No special mission, less BS

Everyone gets a plasma or melta, cheaper...

2. Regular inquisitors start with a pistol and carapace armor

Min. Priest w/Eviscerator, 60 pts. Inquisitor w/Artificer Armor and Demonblade, 55 pts. You make da' call.

3. Servitors mind lock themselves and their whole squad half the time

For 10 points/multi-melta (total model cost), I'll take that chance if they're stacked with an inquisitor.

4. No fleet

For +1 across the entire stat-line, and a -1 point cost, I'll give up fleet. Besides, who uses fleet when they can be tossed out the front of a land raider or storm raven?

5. No heavy weapons, no orders, no blobs.

Because if everyone has a melta gun, you still really need that autocannon...and how often have orders made or broken a game? Ok, you got me on the blobs, good point.

This is still seriously broken by points cost.

I'm curious...what did people think of the Librarian psychic powers? Some of them seemed a bit over the top...reducing toughness by 1 (counting for instant death! So Marines will be ID'd with S6 shots instead of S8), instakill if you fail your initiative test(no save allowed) psychic templates, and the Brotherhood Champions 'i will maek one attack that will kill one thing i touch' rule. I can see some horrible applications for this...horrible, horrible applications.

I wonder if Psychic Mastery is a grey knights thing or if it is a 6th edition thing...

I'm hoping it's a 6th Ed. thing. I'd like to see it more widely used, instead of never being able to remember exactly what Epistolary does or where to look it up.

Also, did anyone else notice that Dreadnoughts lost Psycannons? Weird.

The one thing that bugs me about henchmen is that they can't buy shotguns or grenade launchers. I have a bunch of old Adeptus Arbites models I was going to use as a small army with Coteaz, and I was hoping I'd be able to use their shotguns WYSIWYG. Maybe I'll just use them as bolters, but that feels so lame. I also find it hilarious that warrior henchmen can buy a storm shield and a power weapon and effectively cost as much as 3 crusader henchmen who have the same equipment. I just don't understand!

Could this be the beginning of massive points re-costing by GW to sell more of everything ?

If elite grey knights are this cost, perhaps 6th ed marines are going to be really cheap, and so on.

Kurb wrote:Could this be the beginning of massive points re-costing by GW to sell more of everything ?

If elite grey knights are this cost, perhaps 6th ed marines are going to be really cheap, and so on.

Already happened with 35 point rhinos.

Brother SRM wrote:

Kurb wrote:Could this be the beginning of massive points re-costing by GW to sell more of everything ?

If elite grey knights are this cost, perhaps 6th ed marines are going to be really cheap, and so on.

Already happened with 35 point rhinos.

Granted I am new and missed the times before 5th.

But look at IG, their pimp dex, and the $$$ it takes to get all of that.
Perhaps this is the beginning of more of the same.

Just play smaller point games. (as if any of us had any self control )

Also, Orbital Relay?? Do you get to pick a kind, like lance or plasma, etc, etc?

Three TechMarines with Orbital Relay!!

Holy

I know for a fact every WAAC gamer in my local area will be playing GK soon...

Personally i was expecting a much higher points cost across the board. Depending on the exact stats and abilities of the wargear it could make every other army look like an utter joke.
Daemons seem to be pretty 'ed already and Eldar being 'the best psykers in the galaxy' seems more of a joke with every new 'dex that comes out. Psychic Storm Ravens you say? *sigh*

rdlb wrote:
Three TechMarines with Orbital Relay!!

And a psychic power that allows them to re-roll their Repair roll.


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dayve110 wrote: Eldar being 'the best psykers in the galaxy' seems more of a joke with every new 'dex that comes out. Psychic Storm Ravens you say? *sigh*

Just makes me eager for the next Eldar dex.

rdlb wrote:Just play smaller point games. (as if any of us had any self control )

Also, Orbital Relay?? Do you get to pick a kind, like lance or plasma, etc, etc?

Three TechMarines with Orbital Relay!!

Well if you are really in template love you can give them all conversion beamers too....

I'm really thinking Mordrack and jump packed GKSTs (regular d00ds) plus Dreadknight support will be the way to go for a competitive "pure" GK build. You can get Mordrack and 10 Terminators with a couple upgrades for about 600 (steal!), 3 upgraded DKs for about 200 apiece, and you have 800 pts left over to pick up a libby (Hammerhand + free nemesis daemon hammers + Quicksilver gives Mordrack's ghost terms S7 +2d6 arm pen at I10) and quite a few GKSTs.

Objective Holding Strike Teams will be very competitive, especially with their area denial in terms of deepstrike.

"No No, you have to deep strike over there, by my ten terminators and flying killer robot knights." snicker snicker

puma713 wrote:
And a psychic power that allows them to re-roll their Repair roll.

To be fair, techmarines needed something to not be total crap.

Brother SRM wrote:

puma713 wrote:
And a psychic power that allows them to re-roll their Repair roll.

To be fair, techmarines needed something to not be total crap.

Oh sure. I wouldn't field them anyway, but just adding to how suP3R-L33t Grey Knights are.

Psykers are amazing! They can be in a unit of 3-12 and only cost as much as combi-weapon!!


They have a 36" range S3*, AP6**, Assault 1 Large Blast attack!
* Strength increased by 1 for each psyker after the first.
** AP reduced by 1 for each psyker after the first.

120 points for 10 large blast railguns... what a deal!

BoyMac wrote:Psykers are amazing! They can be in a unit of 3-12 and only cost as much as combi-weapon!!


They have a 36" range S3*, AP6**, Assault 1 Large Blast attack!
* Strength increased by 1 for each psyker after the first.
** AP reduced by 1 for each psyker after the first.

120 points for 10 large blast railguns... what a deal!

Well, it is one blast per unit (no matter how many psykers are in each unit)
So you would have to have 10 units to get 10 blasts
And as henchman units are 0-1 per inq (essentially, barring a special charecter) then you could only get the 2 of them, although those two could be S10 AP1 blasts... but 1 perils and thats all your psykers having fits and exploding.

dayve110 wrote:

BoyMac wrote:Psykers are amazing! They can be in a unit of 3-12 and only cost as much as combi-weapon!!


They have a 36" range S3*, AP6**, Assault 1 Large Blast attack!
* Strength increased by 1 for each psyker after the first.
** AP reduced by 1 for each psyker after the first.

120 points for 10 large blast railguns... what a deal!

Well, it is one blast per unit (no matter how many psykers are in each unit)
So you would have to have 10 units to get 10 blasts
And as henchman units are 0-1 per inq (essentially, barring a special charecter) then you could only get the 2 of them, although those two could be S10 AP1 blasts... but 1 perils and thats all your psykers having fits and exploding.

Crap. I didn't notice it was a psychic power. I don't want them anymore .

Jokaero?

Strength 2?????
But...
Fight this, Jervis, and then tell me whether the man or the ape deserves Strength 3 more.

Huh, a little disappointment here. I was hoping another Codex would knock IG from its throne, or at least share it, and that it would be a Xenos Codex. However, seeing an army of my super-elite units actually beating my other recently started army into a corner with a stick and then taking a leak on its head and proceeding to kick and stab it, hurts.

That being said, I don't believe this codex is the one which will be released, maybe similar, but definately not the same (in aspects OTHER than an armory), regardless of whether or not it LOOKS legitimate. Hey, for all we know, GW could've gotten smarter... *Runs and hides*.

I sincerely hope this codex gets a little change before it's released, since right now you can build a 2000 point army with 54 lJokaero, and conversely 54 lascannons. That just ain't right.

I can't believe I'm the only one excited about the return of the Jokaero.

This could mean GW are exploring other alien races again.

edit - and other people just posted before me. And I didn't see it was 6 fething pages long. Reading is awesome.

Jokaero in the codex is alright, but 54 is nuts. They should probably be limited 0-3 in a squad for balance purpose.

If it means GW are warming to adding more xenos races, Tau might get Jokaero squads in their next codex.

I'd say to balance it against other codexes, the points for special characters are about 50-75 points off, individual base troops are likely around 2 or 3 points off. GK are most likely around 5 or so points off. Vehicles, strangely, are spot on though.

These things better be undercosted in this test codex or the game will seriously become very un-fun very soon.

Um....

Coteaz - 100pts (removes henchmen limitation, makes them troops):

8 psykers - 80 pts
yields a 36" STR 10 AP 1 Assault 1 large blast

8 Psykers x 6 = 480pts

That's 6 scoring units that can move and fire something that can pop any tank (IF it gets the customary additional 1d6 armor penetration roll - ?) - and just flat out murder most things on legs.

Does it even matter what you do with the other 1420 points for your 2000pt =I= army?

Well, I guess you could put 3 of those units in Land Raiders and the other 3 in StormRavens. Mechanized Inquisition with ridiculous firepower list, anyone?

...

Frazzled wrote:No points cost listing.

Why? The rest fine, but why this?

Are you going to enforce the utterly asinine "It costs the same as 2 Rhinos and half a Hormagaunt" nonsense that infests rumour threads?

Crusaders seem like a swell tarpit.
15 pts for a dude with a stormshield, that piece of gear usually costs more by itself, and they get PWs too.

The fluff in this book is so... Ward-esque that it's hilarious. Look at the Draigo guy and all the crap he did. He's more Mary-Sue-ish than the Sanguinor. And then there are the vehicles - every vehicle in this book is a psyker!!!

tech66 wrote:Death-Cult Assassins - now only have Uncanny Reflexes (5+ invulnerable save)
No More - Independent
No More - Fearless
No More - Inflitrate
No More FUN!!

Ha! You think that's bad, check out the Daemonhost. How the mighty have fallen...

H.B.M.C. wrote:The fluff in this book is so... Ward-esque that it's hilarious. Look at the Draigo guy and all the crap he did. He's more Mary-Sue-ish than the Sanguinor. And then there are the vehicles - every vehicle in this book is a psyker!!!

tech66 wrote:Death-Cult Assassins - now only have Uncanny Reflexes (5+ invulnerable save)
No More - Independent
No More - Fearless
No More - Inflitrate
No More FUN!!

Ha! You think that's bad, check out the Daemonhost. How the mighty have fallen...

Not to mention the arcoflagellants...

I almost fear this is real. But a few things stand out as being too out-of-whack even for GW. The cost of a Dreadknight, for example. Or, more glaring to my eyes, the Cleansing Flame psychic power the purifiers get. A 50/50 chance, per model, for a pre-initiative wound to EVERY enemy model involved in an assault. Get the unit (of <25 point models) into combat with multiple big units, and the amount of damage done is flat out redonkulous. On the weight of this power alone, I'm thinking this 'leak' is us getting trolled by GW.

ninjaedit: Did I mention the four free incinerators for a squad of 10? Or the four psycannons for less then the cost of two models

I'm worried that there will be no new henchmen kits, only grey knights and characters, which will make awesome units like the crusader tarpit very costly in $$$$.

I really do not like this list. It's A) completely unelegant, with a hideous mess of special rules and exceptions, and B) the points costs seem to be troubling.

I doubt it's a fake, given the format and for the same reason, I'm afraid it's from very late in the Dev process, so this is what we will get. Well, screw that.

The PDF version of the codex that's floating around is very overtly non-final.

Fetterkey wrote:The PDF version of the codex that's floating around is very overtly non-final.

Anything with notes jotted on it is probably months old. Maybe it is a good fake?

rdlb wrote:I'm worried that there will be no new henchmen kits, only grey knights and characters, which will make awesome units like the crusader tarpit very costly in $$$$.

And GW wouldn't want that because?

The plastic kits for the first wave are both kinds of Grey Knights, Terminators, and the dreadknight. I think henchmen are too broad a unit to really make a single plastic kit for. Oh how I would absolutely ADORE a henchmen kit, but I don't see it happening. Boxes of 10 plastic Crusaders, 10 plastic Jokaero, 10 plastic whatevers, aren't going to happen anytime soon. Too niche. I can definitely see a handful of blisters coming around for henchmen though; it's the kind of unit where they can just release a wacky and random model whenever the hell they feel like it and it'll be appreciated.

rdlb wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:The PDF version of the codex that's floating around is very overtly non-final.

Anything with notes jotted on it is probably months old. Maybe it is a good fake?

Doubt it. Not with the amount of fluff that's in it. Every unit entry has its fluff written out. Dreadknights, Draigo, etc.

And it is in codex-style font on codex-style paper. From what I understand, fakes in the past have been Word documents.

Agamemnon2 wrote:I really do not like this list. It's A) completely unelegant, with a hideous mess of special rules and exceptions

Horrific, isn't it?

That was my initial impression when reading through it the first time. Every new unit has some sort of fancy special rule of psychic power and the options are all over the place. Worse... it didn't feel like a GK Codex. If GK's are just regular Marines w/Aegis and a fancy sword, then what's the point?

Frazzled wrote:Alrighty: Moderator Frazzled says:
No points cost listing.
No links to where you can download it.
No detailed listing of actual language from the codex.
We thank you for your compliance citizen.

Jesus Christ, it's not high school in here. I don't understand the "thought police" vibe I'm getting here.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:I really do not like this list. It's A) completely unelegant, with a hideous mess of special rules and exceptions

Horrific, isn't it?

That was my initial impression when reading through it the first time. Every new unit has some sort of fancy special rule of psychic power and the options are all over the place. Worse... it didn't feel like a GK Codex. If GK's are just regular Marines w/Aegis and a fancy sword, then what's the point?

This is the logical end result of trying to expand what was initially one fancy unit into an entire Codex. Personally, I get the same feeling from the Daemons codex, but to a lesser degree. Everything feels... forced. Let this be a warning to those who want a Harlequins codex, or mono-god Chaos codices.

Balance-wise, it seems okay at first glance and without knowing the wargear.

lord_blackfang wrote:
Balance-wise, it seems okay at first glance and without knowing the wargear.

Did you take a good look at the Henchmen Warband?

Wow someone has a leaked copy of the book :p Never seen this info before

Guess we need like 30 threads discussing the same leaked info every few days when someone else "discovers it" lol

So is this all the same "end of the world! game breaking codex creep! The game will never be the same!" BS we got with IG and Tyranids (OMFG! doom and swarmlord makes me not want to play wa wa wa ..... pffft how things have changed) or is there really something to be worried about with how broken this codex looks?

From the sounds of it they made everything (even vehicles? how the hell does that work?) over the top good psykers, and thye made the points cost far too low. Im I getting the jist of whats broken with this codex and is it really that game changing?

Im thinking RoW on farseers will have a field day with this army. Dreadknights wont like DE poison weapons at all. Actually now that I think about it... this might actually be an army nids might not have problems beating (mass numbers, poison everywere, good psykic defence) but I guess well just have to see in the coming months.

The biggest issue methinks is going to be the Paladins and Henchmen Warband.

The Henchmen are seriously undercosted and over customizable. You can basically create just about any unit you want with it, and they can be made Troops. Want a unit with 5 lascannons in a Chimera for the cost of a Tac squad in a Rhino? 12 Plasma Gunners or 12 PW/SS dudes in a chimera for about the same price? Ten WS5 three attack S4 powerweapon wielding 5+invul guys for the cost of a Leman Russ? 5 Meltaguns in a Chimera for lbasically the cost of an AC/LC pred? All of that and a whole *lot* more is doable.

The Paladins on the other hand are 2W terminators that can basically be kitted with FNP, mastercrafted weapons, a rending S5 flamer that ignores invul saves, 2+/2++sv's on 5man squad for not significantly more than many other deathstar units with a character, being significantly scarier however and able to play wound allocation gimmicks. You basically need 360 BS4 Bolter shots to kill that unit (60 marines rapid firing for 3 turns), 108 BS4 Plasma gun shots, or 54 BS4 Meltagun shots, or 720 BS3 Lasgun shots.

The options in this Codex make my head spin. The Grey Knights already felt special, they didn't need all this... I don't even know what to call it. Does every unit really need a special rule or psychic power? it just feels like overcompensation.

As a CSM player I'm used to a very over simplified Codex. Grey Knights make my head hurt.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:I really do not like this list. It's A) completely unelegant, with a hideous mess of special rules and exceptions

Horrific, isn't it?

That was my initial impression when reading through it the first time. Every new unit has some sort of fancy special rule of psychic power and the options are all over the place. Worse... it didn't feel like a GK Codex. If GK's are just regular Marines w/Aegis and a fancy sword, then what's the point?

That's exactly how I felt when I read the GK rumors thread. Without the WS 5, +2s NFW, and special rules, the Grey Knight lose what makes them feel like a unique unit. Although it's hard for me to feel sympathy. After hearing for years about how the Inquisition should be removed to make way for more grey space marines, I find Henchmen warband spam being the next leafblower to be delicious irony.

Although we still have to wait and see.

Wow... this just makes me feel dirty.

It'll hurt to retire my first and my favourite army, but with a codex like this... it's just overkill. I wanted my old and broken codex to be upgraded and fixed, but this is just disgustingly overkill.

rdlb wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:The PDF version of the codex that's floating around is very overtly non-final.

Anything with notes jotted on it is probably months old. Maybe it is a good fake?

Probably not fake, but it's OLD. The PDF was made 2011-01-10. It could be a very very old revision copy that some fringe-person in the design process had for review or notes. Or a very recent copy of the rules that magically happened to appear on the internets.

It's at the point where the content is basically finished but the layout & editing are not yet complete.

Magister187 wrote:

Igenstilch wrote: quick summary... "piss & moan"

I'm curious how you think this army will have a bigger negative impact against nids then Dark Eldar did. That army seemed made to kill nids. This one just seems powerful, in line with the top tiers of armies. It should have no bigger effect on nids then it does on Eldar or Nilla marines.

Dark eldar have poison (which isnt that over abundant), you still get an armor save against, but not so wide spread with the power weapons. Grey knights seem to be able to give every unit and their groupies power weapons and some sort of (#)++ save. S3 can still cause a wound to T6, meaning these dirt cheap troops can tie up a nid MC for several rounds and very possibly kill them. Nids only sport 1 true invunrable save, the other two are condition dependent (in cc, or against shooting only, etc). Nid shooting and CC is still decent against dark eldar, with their low T and low armor values. IMHO nids vs dark eldar isnt that bad of a match up. It could be rough but still very doable.

Grey Knights seem to have an over abundance of power weapons and Invunrable saves.

Coteaz (master of the groupies) and the henchmen as represented in the leaked, can sport war gear that would make any space marine chapter cry (yea I got no frame of reference on this one, though later I will see how many 3++, power weapons, and meltas I can take in a legal marine list to compare). There needs to be some balanced limitations on the war gear these groupies can take (that and up the point cost).

I would complain about the other entries, but one thing at a time.

Would have liked to see a Valkyrie and vendetta option as fast or transports, an inquisitors personal Valkyrie seems very cool to me.

lord_blackfang wrote:This is the logical end result of trying to expand what was initially one fancy unit into an entire Codex. Personally, I get the same feeling from the Daemons codex, but to a lesser degree. Everything feels... forced. Let this be a warning to those who want a Harlequins codex, or mono-god Chaos codices.

Exactly so. Forced. I still remember the first 3E rules for Grey Knights. For one thing, they were only allowed vs Chaos armies, and only came in one flavor: Terminator. For another, they cost 80 points per model. And now we're getting Grey Knight Techmarines and Grey Knight Librarians and gods know what.

The Henchmen are the worst offender in my opinion, since as a unit they have an incredible amount of pointless verisimilitude and would devolve into a complete clusterfrag in actual use. 10 different statlines, almost every one of them with some kind of special rule (Banishers do X, Daemonhosts do Y, Jokaero (hah) do Z...). To add insult to injury, despite all this, many valid DH armies still got invalidated, and the rest are definitely looking strange (Radical Daemonhunter Barnstable is apparently good pals with Lord Draigo's crew).

And seriously, Lord Draigo? Whoever wrote his backstory is a slack-jawed yokel.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Exactly so. Forced. I still remember the first 3E rules for Grey Knights. For one thing, they were only allowed vs Chaos armies, and only came in one flavor: Terminator. For another, they cost 80 points per model. And now we're getting Grey Knight Techmarines and Grey Knight Librarians and gods know what.

For what it's worth, the original Grey Knight list did have Tech-Marines and whatnot.

Agamemnon2 wrote:The Henchmen are the worst offender in my opinion, since as a unit they have an incredible amount of pointless verisimilitude and would devolve into a complete clusterfrag in actual use. 10 different statlines, almost every one of them with some kind of special rule (Banishers do X, Daemonhosts do Y, Jokaero (hah) do Z...). To add insult to injury, despite all this, many valid DH armies still got invalidated, and the rest are definitely looking strange (Radical Daemonhunter Barnstable is apparently good pals with Lord Draigo's crew).

Ironically, if the GK Codex is the result of taking one unit and trying to expand it into many units, then the Henchman unit is the result of taking many units and trying to squash them into a single one. Weird, huh?

Agamemnon2 wrote:And seriously, Lord Draigo? Whoever wrote his backstory is a slack-jawed yokel.

All Hail Matt Ward! Maker of Infinite Mary Sues and Other Such Nonsense.

But seriously though, Draigo's fluff reads like author self-insertion fan fiction. Carved his name in Mortarion's heart? I mean really...

I still can't get over their basic troops.

In the Blood Angels codex, widely considered very cheesy. Assault marines cost 100 pts for 5.

For 55 points more, e.g 155 pts.
A grey knight strike squad has:
Init 5 all the time (not just on the charge), most likely str 5 all the time (hammerhand). Prevents deep striking around them. ALL POWER WEAPONS (and instant death if you didn't hammerhand) and a stormbolter.

Not to mention these guys move like jump infantry, can deep strike, have preferred enemy deamons and physic defense. However, Red Thirst and DoA seems equivalent to this.

I mean, not only can these guys lay out 20 bolter shots at 24 inches, they can also move and shoot 24 and assault afterwards. They strike at init 5 with all power weapons. Name a single troop unit that, for 100 points, could stand up to that.

With power weapons normally costing 15 points apiece I have no idea how they can justify this. Grey knights should be 30 points a man, not 20.

Wow, I just looked at the HQ section.

Inquisitors are at -1 WS and BS and no 5+ invul or the Aura ability compareed with a Lord Commissar, however have +1 init & carapace and another grenade type and significantly more (and much more powerful) options, are otherwise identical stat & wargear wise, and only 36% of what a Lord Commissar costs...

For the cost of Lord Commissar, you can an Inquisitor in Terminator armor with a Storm Bolter & Nemesis hammer and still have 5pts left over....

Mat Ward...what on earth are you thinking?

Vaktathi, you make the mistake of asserting that Matt Ward thinks. You'll need to prove that assertion I'm afraid.

Sadly, this is probably true.

I'm just aghast at what I'm reading in here. I mean some of the stuff seems fine, but christ on a crutch I just don't know what is going on with the rest.

It literally reads like a bad internet fan-dex. I'm hoping that's what it turns out to be, but I know better.

For even more WTF, compare Coteaz with Commissar Yarrick.

Ok, so, bearing in mind that this is codex: Grey Knights, lets look at a GK strike squad - the regular PAGK squad;

For 10 models, including the Justicar, you will pay 200 points.

Before, this would have cost 275 points but now, you get 1 less BS, -2 str, no fearless, no True Grit. You couldn't be pinned in Codex; Daemonhunters either.

If you want to give them all the Nemesis Force halberd (which is what all existing GK players will be forced to do at first because all PAGK come with them), it's an extra 50 points for the whole squad making it 250 so you get +1 Initiative. -5 points actually as existing Justicars have the swords annoyingly but assume a full squad of halberds.

So, for 25 points less than the current codex, you get -1BS, -2Str, no fearless, no true grit and I'm assuming, you can be pinned.

You do, however, get +1I, frag, krak and psyk-out grenades, psychic powers and ATSKNF. You can give them way more wargear options but they cost - warding staves are an extra 25 points per model. Personal teleporters are an extra 6 per model so let's say you take those - add 60 points on to your 250 and you get 310 points. As you can see, the cost is beginning to creep up.

So, for all of the 'GK are too cheap' people, I disagree. You'd be going up above 400 points if they all had personal teleporters and warding staves. Unupgraded PAGK are not better than current ones - perhaps in some ways yes but in other ways no so they roughly balance out. Grey Knights are going to be just as difficult to win with as they are now because they WILL have a very low model count because they are potentially more expensive than they are now - a lot more expensive.

Now we come on to the henchmen. How many GREY KNIGHT players are going to all of a sudden want to play =I=? One or two to try it out, sure, but if you like GK, then you'll be looking at GK before henchmen. Most GK players will probably take a couple of henchmen squads - they'll probably have to for reliable anti tank unless you want to rely on rending ( I don't).

Admittedly, the henchmen do seem too cheap atm but I doubt you'll all of a sudden see hundreds of players dropping whatever army they currently play to go for =I=. Also, there are different types of inquisitor - nothing much about that in the leaked codex but I bet that the henchmen you can take are restricted by what type of Inquisitor you take, whether, Ordos, Malleus or Xenos. There has to be some sort of restriction because right now, the =I= side of it does look broken and I'm sure that even GW can see that. They may get things wrong but they can't be that thick to think it's not broken.

Either way, if you come up against a GK player, you'll have a small force to worry about. If they all have warding staves, they'll be hard to kill but their numbers will be even smaller. Yes, they will be more difficult to beat than they are now but that's only fair since they are incredibly underpowered as things stand. If you come up against a =I= army, I'm betting that there will be more restrictions on it then than there are as of today.

Vaktathi wrote:Wow, I just looked at the HQ section.

Inquisitors are at -1 WS and BS and no 5+ invul or the Aura ability compareed with a Lord Commissar, however have +1 init & carapace and another grenade type and significantly more (and much more powerful) options, are otherwise identical stat & wargear wise, and only 36% of what a Lord Commissar costs...

For the cost of Lord Commissar, you can an Inquisitor in Terminator armor with a Storm Bolter & Nemesis hammer and still have 5pts left over....

Mat Ward...what on earth are you thinking?

I love how the mods freak out and step in to delete something like "A bolter costs 5 points" but then pretend that in magic legal land "A bolter is 86% the cost of a (insert thing everyone knows the price of here) plus 4 points" is somehow treated differently.

ColdSadHungry wrote:Admittedly, the henchmen do seem too cheap atm but I doubt you'll all of a sudden see hundreds of players dropping whatever army they currently play to go for =I=. Also, there are different types of inquisitor - nothing much about that in the leaked codex but I bet that the henchmen you can take are restricted by what type of Inquisitor you take, whether, Ordos, Malleus or Xenos. There has to be some sort of restriction because right now, the =I= side of it does look broken and I'm sure that even GW can see that. They may get things wrong but they can't be that thick to think it's not broken.

I agree with the later, but the first part is just being naive. Everybody playing Space Wolves wants to play drunken, Viking, magic-hating, close combat monsters. That's why you don't see SW missile spam and psykers at all..

ColdSadHungry:

In the previous codex did all Grey Knights come with force weapons?

This just sounds exactly like the hysteria before the Nid and IG 'dexes (anyone remember the s***storm pre-doom of Malan'tai?).

Bear in mind that A. This copy is more than a month old.
B. There's still more than a month to go until it's released.

So, as the famous posted decrees:

Keep calm and carry on.

I'm seriously hoping you're right, and this leak is old enough that there were some serious changes. Especially with points costs....

I don't think we'll be seeing an escape from the fluff though.

@ Lunarman

no they didn't but their weapons gave them Str 6

And they were still called 'Force'?

That could be good news, perhaps these Nemesis Force swords arn't all 'Force Swords' as we know them.
If they're not power weapons, or they just allow Instant Death, then they're not nearly so powerful.

Cerebrium wrote:This just sounds exactly like the hysteria before the Nid and IG 'dexes

Then you're not listening properly. There are a number of who care not one iota if the book is over or underpowered. We're more concerned with both the absurdity of the bad fanfic-level fluff, and the breaking of what made the GK's a unique force rather than just Codex: More Marines.

Macok wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:Admittedly, the henchmen do seem too cheap atm but I doubt you'll all of a sudden see hundreds of players dropping whatever army they currently play to go for =I=. Also, there are different types of inquisitor - nothing much about that in the leaked codex but I bet that the henchmen you can take are restricted by what type of Inquisitor you take, whether, Ordos, Malleus or Xenos. There has to be some sort of restriction because right now, the =I= side of it does look broken and I'm sure that even GW can see that. They may get things wrong but they can't be that thick to think it's not broken.

I agree with the later, but the first part is just being naive. Everybody playing Space Wolves wants to play drunken, Viking, magic-hating, close combat monsters. That's why you don't see SW missile spam and psykers at all..

Yeah, but SW are space marines. They look cool. the =I= henchmen will probably be a much uglier, harder to paint bunch. I don't see tonnes of people dropping their space marines to go out and buy an army made up of arco flagellants, servitors and daemonhosts etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

lunarman wrote:And they were still called 'Force'?

That could be good news, perhaps these Nemesis Force swords arn't all 'Force Swords' as we know them.
If they're not power weapons, or they just allow Instant Death, then they're not nearly so powerful.

Yeah, they had nemesis force weapons. PAGK were just normal str6 weapons. Terminators had power weapons and Grand masters had force weapons.

ColdSadHungry wrote:Yeah, but SW are space marines. They look cool. the =I= henchmen will probably be a much uglier, harder to paint bunch. I don't see tonnes of people dropping their space marines to go out and buy an army made up of arco flagellants, servitors and daemonhosts etc.

No doubt, but since when has a WAAC player cared about that? No doubt it'll be harder to turn their Ultramarines into Inquisitorial Henchmen, but I don't doubt for a minute that Inquisition will be a competitive army, and will likely see significant play. And while Space Marine players couldn't switch , IG players will just be drowning in infantry models and Chimeras they could use/convert to represent Inquisitorial Henchmen.

ColdSadHungry wrote:Ok, so, bearing in mind that this is codex: Grey Knights, lets look at a GK strike squad - the regular PAGK squad;

For 10 models, including the Justicar, you will pay 200 points.

Before, this would have cost 275 points but now, you get 1 less BS, -2 str, no fearless, no True Grit. You couldn't be pinned in Codex; Daemonhunters either.

If you want to give them all the Nemesis Force halberd (which is what all existing GK players will be forced to do at first because all PAGK come with them), it's an extra 50 points for the whole squad making it 250 so you get +1 Initiative. -5 points actually as existing Justicars have the swords annoyingly but assume a full squad of halberds.

So, for 25 points less than the current codex, you get -1BS, -2Str, no fearless, no true grit and I'm assuming, you can be pinned.

You do, however, get +1I, frag, krak and psyk-out grenades, psychic powers and ATSKNF. You can give them way more wargear options but they cost - warding staves are an extra 25 points per model. Personal teleporters are an extra 6 per model so let's say you take those - add 60 points on to your 250 and you get 310 points. As you can see, the cost is beginning to creep up.

So, for all of the 'GK are too cheap' people, I disagree. You'd be going up above 400 points if they all had personal teleporters and warding staves. Unupgraded PAGK are not better than current ones - perhaps in some ways yes but in other ways no so they roughly balance out. Grey Knights are going to be just as difficult to win with as they are now because they WILL have a very low model count because they are potentially more expensive than they are now - a lot more expensive.

Now we come on to the henchmen. How many GREY KNIGHT players are going to all of a sudden want to play =I=? One or two to try it out, sure, but if you like GK, then you'll be looking at GK before henchmen. Most GK players will probably take a couple of henchmen squads - they'll probably have to for reliable anti tank unless you want to rely on rending ( I don't).

Admittedly, the henchmen do seem too cheap atm but I doubt you'll all of a sudden see hundreds of players dropping whatever army they currently play to go for =I=. Also, there are different types of inquisitor - nothing much about that in the leaked codex but I bet that the henchmen you can take are restricted by what type of Inquisitor you take, whether, Ordos, Malleus or Xenos. There has to be some sort of restriction because right now, the =I= side of it does look broken and I'm sure that even GW can see that. They may get things wrong but they can't be that thick to think it's not broken.

Either way, if you come up against a GK player, you'll have a small force to worry about. If they all have warding staves, they'll be hard to kill but their numbers will be even smaller. Yes, they will be more difficult to beat than they are now but that's only fair since they are incredibly underpowered as things stand. If you come up against a =I= army, I'm betting that there will be more restrictions on it then than there are as of today.

Just as long as =I= players don't need to take Grey Knights (unless its a Ordo Malleus army or something). Then I wouldn't mind more restrictions.

Whatever, I'm just gonna look at the advantages of other things until the codex actually comes out.

All the assassins look great! I'll miss Bio-meltdown on Eversors, but what they've done with Vindicares more than makes up for it. 8BS is far more fitting for a vindicare than the previous BS5.

Culexus will be hilarious to drop into a Farseer/Warlock group. Will be great for fighting other GK players too.

Callidus are unchanged bar the stat changes, meaning they still have that sweet entry system (inflicting hits on a unit and appearing next to it.)

Interestingly, under the ATSKNF entry, it states:

'Units which are not entirely formed of Grey Knights are still subject to this rule, providing that the unit contains at least one Grey Knight.'

Unless I've missed something, where has it been stated that you can take a mix of GK and non GK in the same unit? Maybe it's just the wording but saying units not ENTIRELY formed of grey knights suggests that you can mix in GK with something else.

I can't see where it says Callidus can assault on the turn they appear though. Which seems odd.

ColdSadHungry wrote:Interestingly, under the ATSKNF entry, it states:

'Units which are not entirely formed of Grey Knights are still subject to this rule, providing that the unit contains at least one Grey Knight.'

Unless I've missed something, where has it been stated that you can take a mix of GK and non GK in the same unit? Maybe it's just the wording but saying units not ENTIRELY formed of grey knights suggests that you can mix in GK with something else.

Well for example, Inquisitors are Independent characters, so you could add one to a Strike Squad, and Grand Masters are IC's and thus can be added to Henchman squads.

Ah, yeah, I'd got it in my mind that the codex was going to let you take a unit of henchmen with a GK or two lol.

I agree with the several people who've hoped that we see some points and rules changes between this pdf and the finalised codex. I think some of these units are definitely underpriced. But I expect to think that (just not to this extent) with every new codex.

What really bothers me about this pdf is how involved and 'f you' some of these rules are. I think if you want to design rules for a powerful unit, it should be done with elegance. Simple rules, USRs and statistic changes, etc. Not a bazillion unique weapons and rules. And too many of the special rules are things that break the normal abilities and limitations of units. Like the psychic vehicles. A major part of how vehicles work is that you can stun them and move on. Extra armour is rightly used nowadays as a possible failsafe against this on the most valuable transports. Grey knights now just have to pass a 17/18 chance to ignore all of those effects.

Biggest rules cluster"£$%: the henchmen entry. We are going to see some complex-unit armies, with 20 minutes of book-keeping and writing down jokaero weapons upgrades, before the game begins. Why would they make such a customisable unit freely available? Do these designers not know that there are hordes of people online waiting to find out how to break these rules?

Anyway, GW obviously learns very little about how to design armies with clear rules and few loopholes/power imbalances.

And the background, my god!? If their baddest mofo is trapped in hell and has only popped out once, why is he going to be taking the field against tau and orks every 15 minutes!? And one of their sergeants has the power of resurrection? And they're just accepting that?

Grey knights really should have stayed as an elite terminator unit only taken against chaos IMO. This book will seriously be a pain to play against if this is the more-or-less final version.

Did anyone notice that Razorbacks are more expensive but are missing the extra rules?

Also, are the N Dreadknights the Knights that were in Mechanicum? They were my favorite part of that book.

Homer

No, the Knights in Mechanicum were Paladin Knights but not the new Paladins, small, one man versions of Titans (I bet this is just getting even more confusing...).

Just look this up:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Knights

But with Inquisitores, Henchmen, Techmarines and Dreadknights you could make some kind of Mechanicum army...

M'Kachen's Nemesis wrote:No, the Knights in Mechanicum were Paladin Knights but not the new Paladins, small, one man versions of Titans (I bet this is just getting even more confusing...).

Just look this up:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Knights

But with Inquisitores, Henchmen, Techmarines and Dreadknights you could make some kind of Mechanicum army...

So they are scaled down versions. NDknight is to Paladin Knight as Warhound is to Reaver?

Homer

Biggest rules cluster"£$%: the henchmen entry. We are going to see some complex-unit armies, with 20 minutes of book-keeping and writing down jokaero weapons upgrades, before the game begins. Why would they make such a customisable unit freely available? Do these designers not know that there are hordes of people online waiting to find out how to break these rules?

Well it does reflect how a real Inquisition army would be.

But the problem stems from not having Inquisitorial Storm Trooper squads available as a seperate squad. (with a slight buff than their last incarnation)

Cerebrium wrote:
Callidus are unchanged bar the stat changes, meaning they still have that sweet entry system (inflicting hits on a unit and appearing next to it.)

Not so much Callidus lost:

- Assaulting on the the turn it comes in
- Ignoring armor and invulns
- A Word In Your Ear

But gained

+Showing up and getting 1d6 str 4 ap 2 hits
+Instant death close combat attacks

It feel like trading the fun parts that added character (A Word In Your Ear) for a largely unnecessary stat boost.

Homer S wrote:

M'Kachen's Nemesis wrote:No, the Knights in Mechanicum were Paladin Knights but not the new Paladins, small, one man versions of Titans (I bet this is just getting even more confusing...).

Just look this up:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Knights

But with Inquisitores, Henchmen, Techmarines and Dreadknights you could make some kind of Mechanicum army...

So they are scaled down versions. NDknight is to Paladin Knight as Warhound is to Reaver?

Homer

No, Titans are controlled by the mechanicus and go (biggest to smallest) Emperor - Warlord - Reaver - Warhound - Knight. Knights (sometimes called Knight Paladins or Knight Titans) aren't really 'proper' titans, I believe they are part of a seperate chain of command, but they're still adeptus mechanicus.

Nemesis Dreadknights are new and never-before-seen, are only for Grey Knights, and have no relationship to anything else in the WH40k universe.

Mr Hyena, the rules are an excellent way of representing a complex, varied unit in an ideal world. But Wh40k players being what they are, I just know we're going to start seeing some new powerful lists based on unlimited numbers of complex henchman units, controlled more by what's effective than a cool modelling idea. And more than 1 henchman unit in an army is going to be very confusing for the opposing player, once you start getting into the special rules and random bonuses.

So I just ran an all ward stave army...there's no way they are power weapons and a 2+ invulnerable...its just...impossible...it only makes sense to be a 2+ invuln for its cost and then your rank determines if it has power weapon abilities like the old book...that makes more sense to me...I can't really say because I dont have that section...but power weapon plus a 2+...the game just broke...i took 41 guys and lost six while tabling my opponent and i didnt even count them as power weapons...just in case...


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I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Nemesis Dreadknights are new and never-before-seen, are only for Grey Knights, and have no relationship to anything else in the WH40k universe.

Besides the fact that they were most definitely given to the Grey Knights by the Mechanicus because the Grey Knights are the only ones the Mechanicus trust with such powerful technology.

Ok,

If this lasts, GKs can field a company of terminators. Best yet.

Gold ->Grey Knights (102)

HQ: Termi Hero with 10 Termies, Termi Hero
Elites: 30 Termies
Troops: 60 Termies

Silver -> Space Wolves (62)
HQ: Termi Hero x 2
Troops: 60 Termies

Bronze - > Deathwing (47)
HQ: Termi Hero x 2
Elites: 15
Troops: 30

So the army that is renowned for termies is dead last, well third anyway. Thanks GW.

Homer

ColdSadHungry wrote:Interestingly, under the ATSKNF entry, it states:

'Units which are not entirely formed of Grey Knights are still subject to this rule, providing that the unit contains at least one Grey Knight.'

This is just so you don't have Stubborn ATSKNF GKs or Henchmen. However you can have Stubborn Fearless Purifiers.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:No, Titans are controlled by the mechanicus and go (biggest to smallest) Emperor - Warlord - Reaver - Warhound - Knight. Knights (sometimes called Knight Paladins or Knight Titans) aren't really 'proper' titans, I believe they are part of a seperate chain of command, but they're still adeptus mechanicus.

Nemesis Dreadknights are new and never-before-seen, are only for Grey Knights, and have no relationship to anything else in the WH40k universe.

OK, I think my analogy is still valid. The NDKs are suits the GKs pilot, like a proper Knight, just less capable and with smaller weapons. Still darn cool. I'm picturing three of them and three Wraithlords battling a pack of Greater Daemons. It would look excellent anyway.

Homer

Weren't there really old scout titans?...might be comparable to these...

Good image...Not just a pack though...a horde of greater daemons...

Wait. The costs are going to be different (more sane) and some of the weirdness will be clarified if not removed. I can't see this thing actually hitting the shelves as is.

pixelpusher wrote: it's OLD

pixelpusher wrote:was made 2011-01-10

pixelpusher wrote:very very old

It's a month and 9 days. . .

Yes, a lot can happen in the final few days before the printers deadline. It's usually when people start thinking properly about the thing that's going to be printed and make a ton of corrections. Ask me how I know… -.-

Now if it was a PDF that came straight out of the layout department with cropmarks and such you could be pretty sure that it's pretty recent. This... I wouldn't bet on it and sure not try to fool myself that the stuff in it is correct. That is until the fat lady sings.

I don't mean to pee on your parade. It could of course be that this is what stuff looks like at GW just before it goes away to the printer. But it sure does look like most of the "for review & corrections" stuff I do weeks or months before the text and artwork deadline.

I like it for 1 thing:

Corteaz as a Rogue Trader.

Asuming that you have to Fill 2 troops slots(as opposed to just bringing at least 2 troops) Take 1 min unit of GK Termies, and 1 min Unit of PAGK; then fill the rest of your points with henchmen warbands(not necissarily optimized, but more for Rogue Trader Force - fluff reasons)

Kommissar Kel wrote:I like it for 1 thing:

Corteaz as a Rogue Trader.

Asuming that you have to Fill 2 troops slots(as opposed to just bringing at least 2 troops) Take 1 min unit of GK Termies, and 1 min Unit of PAGK; then fill the rest of your points with henchmen warbands(not necissarily optimized, but more for Rogue Trader Force - fluff reasons)

This mistaken idea that you can have unlimited Troops is still alive?

Two things are bothering me about this discussion.

First, stop ragging on the Mods. They are just covering their ass by playing the thought police. I'm sure they love this just as much as the rest of us. It's like guerilla warfare. You deny the GW lawyers a target. "Well we told them..."

Second, I'm glad GW doesn't take into account TFG when making complex rule sets that can be really fun or really exploited. I'd rather be able to take a motley crue of henchman than have my options limited. So what if some guy makes it a headache. Don't play him. I think there are some really exciting army possibilities with the henchman even if they end up being twice the price.

Just imagine a techmarine and two Joakero blasting away at the enemy as a wall of crusaders holds off the advancing hordes. AWESOME!!

By not taking into account TFG, they end up making a lot of unwilling people into TFG because they just won't know better when trying to put together a list.

For example, I won't be able to show up with my Grey Knights without being TFG just because of the nature of the army now.

Fafnir wrote:I won't be able to show up with my Grey Knights without being TFG just because of the nature of the army now.

That is just ridiculous. The codex makes you TFG?

I can't play Grey Knights for fun!
I can't play Inquisition for fun!
Why don't I just lie down and die?

If no one wants to play against your army, then you are, for lack of a better word, a completely unwilling TFG.

Fafnir wrote:If no one wants to play against your army, then you are, for lack of a better word, a completely unwilling TFG.

QQ

Please stop being so melodramatic. I promise it's not the end of the world. I'm sure you'll find plenty of ways to gimp yourself.

If you really feel so bad about it, just impose a self-regulations of not using psychic powers on your vehicles or something.

Q: Why would you take strike squads over purifers? Based on the PDF.

NOTE: Assumptions is Castellan as HQ so Purifers can be troops as well ;D

Stirke Force:
Base 1 Attacks
Strike Squad: 1 weapon per 5
10 pts more expensive on all gun weapons.
Teleport jump or DS...

Purifers : 20 pts greater than strike force, but IMHO well worth the difference.
Base 2 Attacks
2 Weapons per 5
10 pt reduction on all gun weapons.
Cool Cleansing Flame Psychic Power
5 pt reduction on daemonhammer or falchions

Fafnir wrote:If no one wants to play against your army, then you are, for lack of a better word, a completely unwilling TFG.

Generally, if someone refuses to play me just because of the army I use, not even looking at my list, I don't want to play them anyway.

Christ, I want this codex tomorrow, not for my own benefit, but to stop all the melodrama.

It's what tends to happen when you play with the overly sensative types.

I'd take strike squads just for the personal teleporter. If you can really make one 30" move per game, that is a big big deal. Also, warp quake is just awesome. No deep striking over here!

However, I do want to multicharge 60 ork boyz with 5 purifiers just so they all have to deal with the cleansing flame

rdlb wrote:Why don't I just lie down and die?

If the alternative is posting things like that, do.

The fact that you can take a squad of 10 odd warrior acolytes al wielding plasma guns disturbs me slightly.

Conversely, as a Dark Eldar player, I'm now looking at my Crucible of Malediction with glee.

Vaktathi wrote:Wow, I just looked at the HQ section.

Inquisitors are at -1 WS and BS and no 5+ invul or the Aura ability compareed with a Lord Commissar, however have +1 init & carapace and another grenade type and significantly more (and much more powerful) options, are otherwise identical stat & wargear wise, and only 36% of what a Lord Commissar costs...

For the cost of Lord Commissar, you can an Inquisitor in Terminator armor with a Storm Bolter & Nemesis hammer and still have 5pts left over....

Mat Ward...what on earth are you thinking?

If you are buying a lord commissar for his fighting power instead of his leadership you are a baddie. Stop whining.

GalaxyGames wrote:Q: Why would you take strike squads over purifers? Based on the PDF.

NOTE: Assumptions is Castellan as HQ so Purifers can be troops as well ;D

Stirke Force:
Base 1 Attacks
Strike Squad: 1 weapon per 5
10 pts more expensive on all gun weapons.
Teleport jump or DS...

Purifers : 20 pts greater than strike force, but IMHO well worth the difference.
Base 2 Attacks
2 Weapons per 5
10 pt reduction on all gun weapons.
Cool Cleansing Flame Psychic Power
5 pt reduction on daemonhammer or falchions

Well, each extra knight will run you more as well, and imo the biggest downfall is being forced to take Crowe to make them troops. I'm not a huge fan of pricey 1 wound non-IC models that actually give the opponent advantages (anyone who charges him gets Furious Charge). He also competes in a slot where you have MANY good choices, the loaded HQ Slot. 4 Special Character Grey Knights, the awesomeness of the Grand Master, Librarian and Brotherhood Champion, the special inquisitors (which at least Corteaz and Karamazov are pretty good) and the massive customization of the normal inquisitors make it a very crowded spot.
I'm not saying he isn't competitive, but I think there are better options.

GalaxyGames wrote:Q: Why would you take strike squads over purifers? Based on the PDF.

NOTE: Assumptions is Castellan as HQ so Purifers can be troops as well ;D

Stirke Force:
Base 1 Attacks
Strike Squad: 1 weapon per 5
10 pts more expensive on all gun weapons.
Teleport jump or DS...

Jump packs maybe?

For whomever was saying that every Grey Knight has a force weapon - this is misleading. The Brotherhood of Psykers rule makes clear that it is the whole unit of GKs that use a psychic power, so only one model per unit could use their weapon as a force weapon ("The unit counts as a singe psyker").

Additionally, while there is no "True Grit" rule, rumors have said from different sources that GKs stormbolters enable them +1 attack through some means, giving them the same benefit. So no loss there.

While I hate to jump on the "ZOMGZ" bandwagon, this codex seems horribly broken and poorly balanced, and the fluff is just atrocious teenaged garbage.

A little over 500 points for 10 GKs with jump packs that can teleport (which is a normal move, not a deep strike, FYI) 30 inches ("once," oh no), have two psycannons and eight stormbolters, 2++ saves for all ten models, stop deep striking within 12 inches, assault with a minimum 20 power weapon attacks (at I5 for an additional 50 points total), plus all the extra minor BS items and war gear they get on the side?

Two squads of that plus Mordrack and his boys at 1500 points. GG, don't even bother taking your models out of the case.

That's not even touching the henchman shenanigans. Coteaz and 12x6 meltagun warrior acolytes for around 900 in total. Throw some dedicated chimeras in there and finish with whatever extra units you want (3x Deep Striking Dreadknights sounds good). GG, why'd you try to play?

To find some humor here, who wants to take bets we'll see GKs suspiciously wearing Crimson Fist, Space Wolf, and Blood Angels livery, if this codex is the real article (which I fear it may well be...)?

And the orange monkeys are indeed specifically listed as one of the henchman selections too!

ph34r wrote:

If you are buying a lord commissar for his fighting power instead of his leadership you are a baddie. Stop whining.

Except he's still not exactly exceptional or by any means necessary in that capacity, the Inquisitors offer Stubborn to a unit as well, and he's by far the fightiest HQ IG have besides Straken & Yarrick. I'm not complaining about the Commissar, only that getting a decently fighty non-MEQ HQ for about the same cost as a Thousand Son with the options they have is a bit low.

Who cares? Lord commissars aren't fighting heroes. They're utility heroes.
Inquisitors have no utility, they are just crappy statline dudes who can take a wide variety of gear.

Oh noes! GK are too OP will totally wreck the game!


But really, it will be like any other army, with strengths and weaknesses. Seeing the models on paper is a lot different than when you see the models on the table. Besides we will only have to deal with GK being top of the heap for 6 months until the new necrons come out, right?

The problem is that now it feels like each codex is another in a line of one-upsmanship. It's like they each try to break more rules than the previous codex did. Going along the route that the codex creep is now, it's only a matter of time before the game completely cannibalizes itself.

lord_blackfang wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:I like it for 1 thing:

Corteaz as a Rogue Trader.

Asuming that you have to Fill 2 troops slots(as opposed to just bringing at least 2 troops) Take 1 min unit of GK Termies, and 1 min Unit of PAGK; then fill the rest of your points with henchmen warbands(not necissarily optimized, but more for Rogue Trader Force - fluff reasons)

This mistaken idea that you can have unlimited Troops is still alive?

Why is it mistaken given the wording that we have?

Fafnir wrote:Going along the route that the MARINE/IMPERIAL codex creep is now, it's only a matter of time before the game completely cannibalizes itself.

Fix'd it for you, because the 5th ed Xenos codices are actually weak or balanced.

Neconilis wrote:Why is it mistaken given the wording that we have?

RAI version: Because they're Troop choices, and Troop choices are 2-6. If GW wanted them to be scoring and stay unlimited, they'd just make them scoring, not move them to Troops (see Sternguard.)

RAW version: The "do not take up a slot" text is in itself ineffectual, because "slot" is not a defined game term and is to my knowledge not used anywhere else ever. The proper term used in the rulebook and all codices for the little boxes on the FOC is "choice" or "selection." So by RAW, even without Coteaz all Henchmen count towards your Elites allowance.

Neconilis wrote:
Why is it mistaken given the wording that we have?

Because Coteaz's entry says "Henchmen are troops" not "Henchmen are troops that don't use up a force org slot"?

lord_blackfang wrote:

Neconilis wrote:Why is it mistaken given the wording that we have?

RAI version: Because they're Troop choices, and Troop choices are 2-6. If GW wanted them to be scoring and stay unlimited, they'd just make them scoring, not move them to Troops (see Sternguard.)

RAW version: The "do not take up a slot" text is in itself ineffectual, because "slot" is not a defined game term and is to my knowledge not used anywhere else ever. The proper term used in the rulebook and all codices for the little boxes on the FOC is "choice" or "selection." So by RAW, even without Coteaz all Henchmen count towards your Elites allowance.

FYI, I'm saving this description and posting it every time someone posts the Barrel-O-Monkeys or Chimspam-From-Hell lists.

Anyone who tries to field more than 6 henchmen groups with Corteaz is going to be beaten to death with a brick with this exact reason printed on it.

I think all you need to do to keep henchmen from being such a potentially devastating unit is limit the options a bit. For instance, only one Jokaero/meltagun/crusader for each 4 men in the squad. A lot of the costs are alright. That means that if you do have a unit with three meltaguns, you've gotta have a dozen men to do it. Keeps people from just making those potentially nightmarish 54 Jokaero lists and the like.

BuFFo wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Going along the route that the MARINE/IMPERIAL codex creep is now, it's only a matter of time before the game completely cannibalizes itself.

Fix'd it for you, because the 5th ed Xenos codices are actually weak or balanced.

Regardless, it can only take the game to a very dark place.

Brother SRM wrote:I think all you need to do to keep henchmen from being such a potentially devastating unit is limit the options a bit. For instance, only one Jokaero/meltagun/crusader for each 4 men in the squad. A lot of the costs are alright. That means that if you do have a unit with three meltaguns, you've gotta have a dozen men to do it. Keeps people from just making those potentially nightmarish 54 Jokaero lists and the like.

This is the long and short of it.

The COSTS are fine, the availability is the problem. Make Jokaero limited by the rest of the unit (e.g. for every 4 henchmen, 1 jokaero or something along those lines). Same with special weapons.

The razorback/Chimera spam would still be a problem, but at least you'd be scared of the box, not the contents.

To be honest, Coteaz is pseudo-broken even if he only allows those units to take Troops slots. Henchman Warbands are *incredibly* powerful and customizable, and only make sense for their costs given that you have to take a generally mediocre HQ to unlock them in the first place. The problem is that they are totally balanced as written given how restricted they are. Unrestricting them doesn't really work, and since Coteaz is a steal already (he would be worth it for his utility abilities even without the slot shift and unit unlock), he seems like an instant no-brainer. I was already planning on fielding him, since I hope to have an Inquisition-based army, but he should really cost 200+ points as written AND Troops slot Henchmen should be severely constrained.

Fafnir wrote:

BuFFo wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Going along the route that the MARINE/IMPERIAL codex creep is now, it's only a matter of time before the game completely cannibalizes itself.

Fix'd it for you, because the 5th ed Xenos codices are actually weak or balanced.

Regardless, it can only take the game to a very dark place.

I agree...

On topic, I reserve judgment for the GK when I am able to play against them for a bunch of games.

I have a fiarly large investment in the Inquisition (it IS my favourite part of 40k fluff), so I'll probably play a game or two first, but my hopes are not high.

I'm going to continue to play my Inquisition. I'm treating Henchmen as troop choices who do take up FOC slots with Coteaz. So when the FAQ does inevitably say they do count as taking a troop slot, I won't need to change my list.

Anyone who does want to field them as not taking up a slot is welcome to do it, but just know that I will refuse to play you. I am but a single man, but if I know that I'm following the rules as they were intended, I will feel a little better about myself.

so with no help form anybody i've found the PDF on scribd, if it's true, your guard are going to be happy as you now have two armies, OH and for them, plasma guns are only (Removed) points, sweet, but at only a BS of (removed) kinda sucks, but you can have 10 in a single squad for (removed) that's less than a leman russ for 10 plasma gun, oh and did I forget storm ravens... yeah, time to convert that valk to add assault cannons like I always wanted. Guardsmen mixed with MC, mixed with terminators... this is going to be amazing.

"Guardsmen" don't quite work as there's no option for a simple lasgun...

"Jokaero are heavyset, orange-furred apes with retractable fingers and toes"

Ok seriously this codex must be a red-herring just to mess with us.

But just in case this is the real deal I'm gonna grab some AT-43 Karmans.

Plus the allies rules are gone. Vanished. Null. Guardsmen and this army are now totally separate entities.

The way I understand coteaz is he makes henchmen troops and removes the rule that states one henchmen squad per inquistor. Sorry to beat a dead horse.

tech66 wrote:"Jokaero are heavyset, orange-furred apes with retractable fingers and toes"

Ok seriously this codex must be a red-herring just to mess with us.

But just in case this is the real deal I'm gonna grab some AT-43 Karmans.

They're just bringing back old Rogue Trader races.

For anyone looking to model up Coteaz and not spend $45 on the box set I'd recommend a chaos warrior and this bit from reaper.

http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/hawk/latest/P03456C

Good find Kyoto.

I am on the fence with this Codex.

Part of me wants to have nothing to do with the absurd marine creep. I hate Marine codexes all the jack-assery they represent.

Part of me wants it because the "special" grey knight unit you could field in Dawn of War is what got me into 40k in the first place. I didnt even know it was a miniatures game till someone mentioned it in passing.

The worst part about the new GK's is like someone already said, a lot of WAAC gamers who dont give two thoughts about their army on a personifiable level will immediately paint all their space mens silver and go from there.

I suppose I could either

A) Wait for an update to my Eldar. Maybe they will get some things that GK's dont completely shut down just by existing.

B) Play Necrons when they come out. Hopefully they are geared to simply kill marines, which I know is slightly hypocritcal of my issue with GK's blanking my Eldar, but is more indicative of my hatred of marines in general, which are often as spammy and gimmicky as it gets.

C) Play an inquisition list and take a single squad of GK's to have a slight throwback to the GK's that got me into 40k to begin with.

Who knows?

cyrax777 wrote:The way I understand coteaz is he makes henchmen troops and removes the rule that states one henchmen squad per inquistor. Sorry to beat a dead horse.

it's not a dead horse, it's a brilliant, vibrant lovely thoughbred. Ah I can see it now, guardsmen in chimeras loaded next to dreadknights, and drednoghts and GASP...we can now have that lustfully beautiful Adeptus mecanicus army we've always wanted..... GAH THE TERMINATORS MAKE GREAT PRAETORIANS!!!!! DREADNOUGHTS MECHANATIONS *FROTHS AT MOUTH AND FLATLINES*


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Slinky wrote:"Guardsmen" don't quite work as there's no option for a simple lasgun...

Yes there is, well hot shots lasguns.... or ....oh..... *flatlines again* boltguns. for a point..... *flatline again* [size=24]THE ADMECH HAVE RISEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BOW BEFORE THEY"RE AWESOME!!!!!![/size]

gendoikari87 wrote:BOW BEFORE THEY"RE AWESOME!!!!!!

No hurry then?

lord_blackfang wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:BOW BEFORE THEY"RE AWESOME!!!!!!

No hurry then?

Dohohohoho.

But yes, this book will work VERY well for an AdMech counts-as.

Looks at Draigo's fluff.

Braying. Daemons.

I see what you did there, Goto.

I just realized something, with this book we will have a character existing in two different books with two different sets of rules and statlines, but supposedly representing the same guy at the same point in the games timeline, at the same time. Karamazov exists in the current WH book, and will be in the upcoming GK book.

Huh, that is true. I'm trying to think of any that would intersect, but I think Karamazov is the only one.

hey that's right, karmazov IS in the current WH codex ..................you know warrior acolytes can have bolters and power armor......................................................................and um they have Ordo Malleus, hereticus, and Xenos inquisitors.................................................... the only thing missing........ is the exorcist....... and an ACTUAL witch hunter entry.................and um..... it's blatantly obvious this is a working copy, as in a prototype ......anyone else thinking what I'm thinking?

Do we know for sure that it's at the same time? Maybe this codex creeps the timeline forward a few years.

gendoikari87 wrote:anyone else thinking what I'm thinking?

Maybe. But without quite as much punctuation.

Commander Endova wrote:Do we know for sure that it's at the same time? Maybe this codex creeps the timeline forward a few years.

Well, as far as I can tell looking at the unit entries in both books, they don't really specify anything, they just give a basic, near identical description. Nothing noting anything that would place one to be significantly further back in the timeline or not.

lord_blackfang wrote:RAI version: Because they're Troop choices, and Troop choices are 2-6. If GW wanted them to be scoring and stay unlimited, they'd just make them scoring, not move them to Troops (see Sternguard.)

RAW version: The "do not take up a slot" text is in itself ineffectual, because "slot" is not a defined game term and is to my knowledge not used anywhere else ever. The proper term used in the rulebook and all codices for the little boxes on the FOC is "choice" or "selection." So by RAW, even without Coteaz all Henchmen count towards your Elites allowance.

You are wrong. There is no debate.

Here are how your arguments fail:
RAI argument: They are troops because they enable you to fulfill your basic requirements with only henchmen. They also become troops for deployment. This is not the same as sternguard.
RAW argument: This is completely nonsensical and if you ever attempt to use it you will be laughed out of the store along with the people that claim wraithlords can't shoot because they have no eyes and thus cannot draw line of sight.

Give it up. Coteaz = as many henchmen squads as you want, troops, and no slots used.


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Cerebrium wrote:I'm going to continue to play my Inquisition. I'm treating Henchmen as troop choices who do take up FOC slots with Coteaz. So when the FAQ does inevitably say they do count as taking a troop slot, I won't need to change my list.

Anyone who does want to field them as not taking up a slot is welcome to do it, but just know that I will refuse to play you. I am but a single man, but if I know that I'm following the rules as they were intended, I will feel a little better about myself.

There is nothing to suggest that they intended it. If they wanted them to take slots they would have said "they take slots". Heck, they could have said that he enables you to take 6 squads instead of say not limited.