In this thread, choose something you think is super crappy. What change could make it a competitive choice? Not broken. Competitive.

Tyranid Pyrovore:

Make him explode whenever he is killed. However, if he is insta-killed in combat, his explosion has AP 2.

Old One Eye:

Give him a shooting weapon or reduce his points by 20 or so.

Parasite of Mortrex:

Give him T5 or make him immune to insta-kill.

Ork Deff Dread:

Give him an option of something twin-linked.

pariahs-give the necron special rule.

vanguard-5 point jump packs.

firewarriors-make them 8 points

ChocolateGork wrote:

firewarriors-make them 8 points

+1'000'000

Also -

Crisis Suits - BS4, change nothing else, just this. Elites?! Pfft.

Swooping Hawks to get a turbo-boost like bikes to drop their grenades like Dark Eldar Bladevanes on bikes or the Ork bombing guys.

Define "crappy"? I choose to read it as "Sub-Par", so here goes:



For Sisters of Battle:

Repentia: Drop armor save for an equivalent invulnerable save (they aren't wearing armor anyway), let them ride in transports. Still wouldn't make them very good, but at least it would mean that they would be usable.

Dominions: Give them Scouts, and apply Scouts to any transports they ride, and make their special weapons cost the same as everyone else's in the army. This would make their pricing actually make sense and gives them a purpose, as well as giving Sisters another deployment option.

Retributors: Give them an anti-tank weapon that has an effective range greater than twelve inches. There's very little reason to choose them over Exorcists right now outside of planetstrike or cities of death.

Celestians: Make Sarissas not suck (re-rolling all to-wound, or counting as two CCWs, or changing the bolter to an assault weapon), then give the mto the Celestian squad. Celestians are assault veterans with an assault based statline and assault based special rule, but without assault based equipment.

Seraphim: Reduce their cost so they don't cost more than an assault marine despite having far worse of a statline for an assault unit. Even equal costing would be better, as then it'd be justified as them sacrificing statline for twin linked shooting and their special hit and run.

Canonesses: Give them some starting equipment (BP+CCW frags kraks invuln save) and up their statline to WS5 I5. Sisters focus on skill rather than raw strength, so it makes a bit of sense. Give them access to better shooty equipment, such as master-crafted heavy weapons, to make use of their high BS. Increase their price to compensate to make Palatines worth taking.

Palatines: Give them some starting equipment (BP+CCW+Frags), give them a second faith point like Canonesses. Nobody uses them except for fluff reasons, and even then rarely does that happen. Palatines suck compared to Canonesses, as for ten points more you get a far better statline and more faith points.

Battle Sister Squad: Give them frags and bolt pistols, to bring them in line with other Imperial armies, all of which have frags at least and most of which have pistols as well. this would make The Passion and Hand of the Emperor far more worth using, as it is right now they're not used very frequently compared to Spirit of the Martyr or Divine Guidance.

In general: Make using acts of faith an unmodified leadership check, remove Martyrdom to balance it out (as it is it's just abused with throwaway units to give more faith points anyway).



For Imperial Guard:

Conscripts: Give them a commissar. Just one though. The commissar makes the most sense in a conscript squad anyway... why should they have to use a lord commissar to do it?

Primaris Psyker: Give them more psychic powers and let them choose two. They're the most varied and powerful psykers the Imperium has at their disposal, they don't need to suck like they do right now. A morale boosting ability, an anti-tank ability, a melee ability, a protective ability, an enhancing ability, etc would all be useful.

Leman Russ Punisher: Reduce cost to what the Leman Russ Battle Tank is. It'd still be a bit underperforming but at least it would then have a niche role without being extravagantly expensive.

Tau:

Ethereals - Taking one allows you to upgrade Fire Warriors to Honour Guard for 2pts per model. Honour Guard get +1 to their Ballistic Skill and Leadership and are equipped with pulse rifles, photon grenades and emp grenades as standard, but otherwise share the same upgrades as regular Fire Warriors.

Crisis Bodyguards - BS4. May be taken by either a Crisis Commander or an Ethereal. Crisis Bodyguards with a Crisis Commander bestow the Hit and Run special rule onto the unit. Crisis Bodyguards joined to an Ethereal gain +1 leadership and bestow the Stubborn special rule onto the unit.

Crisis Bodyguards also have The Ultimate Sacrifice special rule. Instead of the regular way of resolving hits and wounds, a unit with at least 1 Crisis Bodyguard must resolve the bodyguard's hits and wounds first. If an attack would either remove the last wound of, kill outright or remove from play a Tau Commander or Ethereal with bodyguards, you may instead opt to have the bodyguard sacrifice himself to save them by taking the wound for them. This wound cannot be saved by any means.

Tau Commander Upgrades:
Tau Commander Shas'El/Shas'O- 30pts - Has Fire Warrior Armour, Photon/EMP grenades and a pulse rifle as standard - Same statlines as current - May choose any upgrade from the infantry wargear list.
Fused Plates - An experimental version of the current Fire Warrior armour - Grants a 3+ armour save - 10pts
Relentless Strategm - Any Fire Warrior unit the Tau Commander joins gains the Relentless special rule until the commander leaves the unit or is killed.

Crisis Battlesuit - 20pts - Must take at least 3 weapons systems, support systems or any combination of the two.
Tank Hunter Stratagem - Any unit Crisis Battlesuit or Broadside Battlesuit unit the Tau Commander joins gains the Tank Hunters special rule until the commander leaves the unit or is killed.

Stealth Battlesuit - 30pts - Tau commander is equipped an XV22 Stealth Battlesuit and is equipped with two burst cannons as standard. May take a battlesuit support system. May replace one or both brust cannons with the following (use the second value if replacing both burst cannons with the same weapon:
Flamer - 3/6pts
Heavy Flamer - 6/12pts
Fusion Blaster - 8/16pts
Stealth Stratagem - Any Stealth Battlesuit unit the Tau commander joins gains the Stealth special rule until the commander leaves the unit or is killed.

XV88 Broadside Battlesuit - The commander is equipped with an XV88 Broadside battlesuit and has a smart missile system as standard. Must choose one battlesuit support system. Must choose a primary weapon from one of the following:
Twin-Linked Ion Blasters - 60" - S6 - AP4 - Heavy 3
Twin-Linked Plasma Cannons - 48" - S6 - AP3 - Blast
Twin-Linked Fusion Destroyers - As multi-meltas
Twin-Linked Railguns - As current.
May choose to replace smart missile system with one of the following:
Twin-Linked Burst Repeaters - 18" - S5 - AP5 - Heavy 6
Twin-Linked Missile Pods - As current.
Twin-Linked Plasma Rifles - As current.
Twin-Linked Rail Rifles - As current.
Tank Hunter Stratagem - See Crisis Commander entry.


Yeah, got a tiny bit carried away there xD

Give beasts of Nurgle 3/4 wounds, increase the price appropriately.

Give some form of Daemon (Daemonettes, seekers, fiends, flesh hounds...ANYTHING) the ability to assault after deep striking. If some marines in jet packs can do it, why can't my incredibly old and 'master of battles' Blood Thirster and Keeper of Secrets just pop up and assault other than stare at every large caliber weapon on the table?!

bucheonman wrote:
Parasite of Mortrex:

Give him T5 or make him immune to insta-kill.

Parasite needs his spawned units not to count for KP more, he's got IC to deflect those nasty shots too.

Now Doom *really* needs this, 10 wounds but dies from a single krak missile? bugger that.

Space Marine Chapter Master- boost a stat by 1 (maybe S or T... hey if Mephsiton can be S and T 6 my chapter master should be able to have at least one or both at 5) and at least make him more usefull then a captain.... add a few diferent rules to kit him to diferent army styles

Example 1 making devistators more usefull (give them relentless maybe) or first rank fire secound rank fire (or whatever the IG rule is called) and let them have at least 1 more heavy weapons

Example 2 give your entire army counter attack......

I dont know jsut something that wont make me just say "meh... the captain does the job better"

Vindicator- give it a rule so it can auto repair the main turret (maybe there is a teachmarine onboard or something, fixed on a 5+) and make it an upgrade option for say +15 points

Tactical Terminators- they should get something that will make them as usefull as SS/TH termies.... maybe let them have 4 heavy weapons per squad and let them have plasma cannons (they ahve heavy flamers, cyclone misiles, multi meltas and assault cannons so why not spread the love of plasma around) make the cyclone misile launcher a heavy 2

Tazz Azrael wrote:Tactical Terminators- they should get something that will make them as usefull as SS/TH termies.... maybe let them have 4 heavy weapons per squad and let them have plasma cannons (they ahve heavy flamers, cyclone misiles, multi meltas and assault cannons so why not spread the love of plasma around) make the cyclone misile launcher a heavy 2

Plasma Cannons would be cool, but the rest is a little screwed up.


Tactical Terminators can NOT take Multi-meltas and Clyclone Missile launchers ARE Heavy 2.

Mandrakes.

Give them rending as standard.

Bam.

Flash gitz: Let them take a single weapon upgrade for free, maybe let them take special weapons to put them more in line with devastators/long fangs.

Space Marine Honor Guard: +1 WS, +1 I, points stay same.

Vect's Pimpmobile: let it take vehicle upgrades, reduce cost to 150, and give it aerial assault.

Kabalite Warriors: Let them take one special weapon per 5 models instead of 1 special weapon period.

Cronos+Talos: give them a special rule that lets them Run and Shoot in the same turn(but not assault)

Eldar Guardians: Reduce cost to 7pts and reduce their warlock to 20points

Storm Guardians: Give Plasma Grenades, Reduce cost to 7pts, and reduce their warlock to 20points

Grotesques: Reduce cost to 27points

Void Raven: Make Void lances and Void mines AP 1

SW:

Blood claws, reduce by about 3 or 4 pts
reduce BS to 1 or 2.

makes sense fluff wise,

Flashgits: Snazzguns are twin-linked. Badrukk has a power choppa.

Lord Commissar: Not treated as an Independent Character in Close Combat.

Mega Armored Nobs: Bosspole, +5 points.

Meganobs: Cybork bodies, bosspole.

All non-special caracter IC's get the relentless special rule and:
ALL commanders (That means Space marine captains, Autarchs, Tau commanders, Archons, Chaos lords, and so on) get more options, shooty weapons and rules to make it work, I want something that might look like this example:

Space marine captain, x points
Powerfist, x points
Teleport homer, x points
Lascannon, x points

Or:

Archon, x points
Agoniser, x points
Shadow field, x points
Haywire blaster, x points

Or:
Chaos lord, x points
Terminator armor, x points
Daemon weapon of khorne, x points
Mark of Khorne, x points
Reaper autocannon, x points

A captain with a lascannon you ask? Doesnt make sense? Useless? Hes the "elite warrior of doom" who commands the army! Why would he be banned from the "long ranged" section of the armory?! And if anyone should have relentless then its the most elite warrior around.

The Autarch options section should be a guiding light for commander-type HQ models everywhere!

(naturally some commanders dont have what it takes to command AND aim a complex ranged device at the same time, i wouldnt give a Chaplain or a Librarian a lascannon or assult cannon, and an Imperial officer is too busy giving commands to have the time to aim proper)

This would be one big fun reason to make even cooler, more awesome commanders than ever before, and it makes the captain option in your marine codex viable again.

Decapitator, Dark Eldar: For the Love of God, let him ASSAULT the turn he arrives!!!!!!

Vanguard Vets: Come with Jump Packs as standard, included in current price.

Venerable Dreadnought: go back to original rule that was an upgrade for a regular Dreadnought. add to Ironclad options.

Pedro Kantor: change "Hold the Line" to read that Sternguard may be taken as Troops.

MOTF: give him an Invuln and another wound for Emperor's sake.

Give Honour Guard an invulerable save, either 4+ or 5+
Make Chaplains, MOTF, and Librarians both Initiative and BS 5
Make Vanguard come standard with Jump Packs, Make devistator Lascannons cheaper, Give devistators Heavy Flamer option, Devistor Sergeant gets Bolter Drill, Give Marine sergents Lightning Claws, Tactical Squads get Heavy Flamer option, Combat Squads can be deployed at seperate times

Tactical Squads: heavy flamer as a heavy weapon option. 10 points perhaps.

MegaNobz - give them similar options to regular nobz.

Looted wagon - Give it a more useful AV value

Deff dread - give it weapon options which make it worth taking over a mob of kanz

Chaos Daemons:

1. Soul Grinder, add new Rule: Warp-Forged. "The Soul Grinder is part daemon, part machine, and more resilient than Realspace vehicles as a result. When the Soul Grinder suffers damage from ranged weapons, roll two dice on the damage table and apply the lowest."

[Rationale: The Soul Grinder is the only vehicle in the codex, and suffers hugely as all anti-tank weapons are turned on it. As such, they never survive long. This should hopefully add some extra defence, and encourage enemies to attack it in close combat].

2. Screamers, addition to rule: Warp Jaws. "Additionally, Screamers with Warp Jaws hit vehicles at worst on a 4+."

[Rationale: Daemons are very weak against AV14, and also have a weak fast attack section of their codex. Hopefully this will encourage more use of Screamers to help with high-AV tanks.]

3. Pink Horrors of Tzeentch, Points change and upgrade change. Cost reduced to 16 points. Changeling increased to 15 points. Change bolt upgrade to: "Gift one model with Bolt of Tzeentch: +10 points. If the squad numbers 10 or more, you may gift a second model with Bolt of Tzeentch: +15 points".

[Rationale: Changeling was too much of a no-brainer choice. Increased cost to dissuade this. Daemons rely too heavily on Plaguebearers to hold objectives. Hopefully the points reduction and ability to take two bolts in large squads will encourage the use of large Horror squads to sit on objectives and take out mech instead of using minimum squads of Plaguebearers as objective takers and nothing else.

4. Daemonic Assault, remove the third and fourth paragraphs detailing the division of the army into two groups. Replace with: "At the beginning of your first turn, divide the army into two groups that must include, as much as possible, the same number of units. Declare one of these groups as the group to arrive on the first turn. You must then subject yourself to the will of the Gods; roll a D6. On a 3-6 the chosen group arrives on the first turn. On a 1-2 the other group arrives on the first turn OR the chosen group arrives, but units in reserve suffer a -1 reserve modifier on the second game turn (i.e. arrive on a 5+ instead of a 4+). You may chose which penalty to take.

The units in the group to arrive on the first turn arrive on the first turn automatically. The remaining units are held in reserve, and rolled for normally (unless subject to the penalty detailed above). All units enter play via Deep Strike."

[Rationale: This change essentially gives a get-out clause to rolling the wrong group at the start of the game. For many Daemon Builds, getting the wrong group is essentially game over on turn one. This allows for the chosen group to always arrive first, but in exchange for a penalty to the important turn-2 wave.]

5. Beasts of Nurgle, points change, rule change. Reduce points to 30. Add Noxious Touch. In Random Poisoned Attacks, change the reference from 4+ to 2+. Remove Slow and Purposeful. Add: "Enthusiasm: A Beast of Nurgle's willingness to 'play' waxes and wanes with its discovery of new 'friends'. Beasts of Nurgle have three levels of excitement: Bored, Excited and Gleeful, represented as 0, 1 or 2 Excitement Counters. Beasts of Nurgle begin the game Bored. Bored Beasts (0 Tokens) move as infantry, but are slow and purposeful. Excited Beasts (1 Token) move as infantry. Gleeful Beasts (2 Tokens) move as infantry and are Fleet. A unit of Beasts gains an Excitement token (to a maximum of 2) if it takes part in a combat during the Daemon player's turn. A unit of Beasts loses an Excitement token (to a minimum of 0) if it does not take part in a combat during the Daemon player's turn. All Beasts of Nurgle cannot Sweeping Advance (They are too busy playing with the floppy corpses of their new found 'friends'.".

[Rationale: The elites section of the Chaos Daemon codex is perhaps the most powerful, with both Bloodcrushers and Fiends in this slot. At their old price of 35 points, they are just 5 points less than Blood Crushers, and worse in most ways. The additions above makes them closer in power to Fiends and Bloodcrushers such that they might be considered, and fill a niche for killing high-toughness enemies.]

Tyranid Prime - Wings as an option and can be attached to a unit in myceitc spore.

Also, give Tyranids the same "drop pod assault" rules as SM.

For IG:

SWS: Ability to take a Chimera
Why: Everyone else can take one. It would improve survivability, and the ability to deliver payload to the target.

Storm troopers: Reduce the cost to 15 points per model
Why: Vets cost 7 points a model. Add 3 points for deep strike, 2 for carapace armor, 2 for Hotshot lasgun, and 1 for special ability. Instead of 85 points for a base squad, you now spend 80, which makes them an easier sell.

Conscripts: Reduce points to 3 per model, give the option to take a commissar.
Why: Why would you use an Independent HQ slot to keep a squad in place? Not only that, fluff wise it makes sense to keep someone there to have the rabble stay put. And a loss of 1 WS and 1 BS is worth more than 1 point. Vets, who are 7 points a model, have BS 4, which means every WS/BS upgrade costs 2 points. If you're using that formula, then conscripts should be 2 points per model, but 3 is way more reasonable.

Chenkov: Increase point by 50, give platoon that Chenkov leads "Send in the next wave" for free. Every other platoon can buy it for 75 points.
Why: "Send in the Next Wave" is a gigantic point sink. Practically no one uses conscript for this reason, and Chenkov never gets put into the field. By giving SITNW a boost, there's incentive to take them and Chenkov.

Knight Commander Pask: Have BS 4 count for the whole squad. For 50 points, it damn well better.

Penal Legion Squad: Let the player choose the special ability.
Why: What other squad in the entire game has a random ability? It's easier to build a list if you know what you're taking before the dice start rolling.

Lonecoon wrote:For IG:

SWS: Ability to take a Chimera
Why: Everyone else can take one. It would improve survivability, and the ability to deliver payload to the target.

OR allow them to be bought as a "unit" then divided up and attached to infantry squads like advisers to bolster line units combat power.

Storm troopers: Reduce the cost to 15 points per model
Why: Vets cost 7 points a model. Add 3 points for deep strike, 2 for carapace armor, 2 for Hotshot lasgun, and 1 for special ability. Instead of 85 points for a base squad, you now spend 80, which makes them an easier sell.

Reduce to 10 points a model and keep as is. Even at 15 points that's space marine territory. Saving 5 points total per squad will not make these guys any more attractive.

Conscripts: Reduce points to 3 per model, give the option to take a commissar.
Why: Why would you use an Independent HQ slot to keep a squad in place? Not only that, fluff wise it makes sense to keep someone there to have the rabble stay put. And a loss of 1 WS and 1 BS is worth more than 1 point. Vets, who are 7 points a model, have BS 4, which means every WS/BS upgrade costs 2 points. If you're using that formula, then conscripts should be 2 points per model, but 3 is way more reasonable.

Agree.

Chenkov: Increase point by 50, give platoon that Chenkov leads "Send in the next wave" for free. Every other platoon can buy it for 75 points.
Why: "Send in the Next Wave" is a gigantic point sink. Practically no one uses conscript for this reason, and Chenkov never gets put into the field. By giving SITNW a boost, there's incentive to take them and Chenkov.

Agree

Knight Commander Pask: Have BS 4 count for the whole squad. For 50 points, it damn well better.

Agree. Espically with how ever cost some of the IG tanks are

Penal Legion Squad: Let the player choose the special ability.
Why: What other squad in the entire game has a random ability? It's easier to build a list if you know what you're taking before the dice start rolling.

Agree. Let the player pay X points for each ability, instead of this random BS.

Daemons -

Give greater Daemons an ability so that they can only be wounded by Poison Weapons on a 6. The amount of Poison in the game makes them almost worthless to take. They should all also have 5 wounds each with the Nurgle one at 6

The Plaguefather - Change Nurgling Infestation to D3 models instead of 1 on a 4+
BloodThirster - Gains Preferred Enemy Special Rule

Beasts of Nurgle - Allow one model to take the Aura of Decay upgrade.
Allow entire unit to take Cloud of Flies upgrade for an small increase in points per model.

Fast Attack Slots - Allow all Daemons in the Fast Attack Category to Assault after Deepstrike. This will allow the Daemon Player to tie up units and possibly take out a few tanks for his other units and will help prevent the Daemon player from eating so much firepower. Seekers would need a point increase to 18-20 and Furies should be decreased to 12

Screamers - Add a Special rule that Screamers may choose to attack a single vehicle (1 die per model on side armor) that they move/turbo over during their movement. If they do this they cannot assault in the same turn. Basically like the bombing runs the Dark Eldar are capable of. Give them BS 3 for this power

Daemon Princes -
Mark of Khorne - 20pts Grants Preferred Enemy in addition to its +1 Attack
Mark of Slannesh - 25pts Grants Fleet in addition to its +1 Initiative

A few small changes and a few major ones but I would be more than happy to play against a codex changed to this and I think it would be much more competitive.

I would post stuff on Necrons, but I would need several pages of text and no one cares anymore

Pyrovore: Give them ability to shoot multimeltas.

Harpy: Make it T6 (not that it is currently horribad, just meh).

Deffdreads: Give them fleet or 12'' charge.

Looted Wagon: It doesn't need to be a transport, Battlewagon is there already. Give it Predators armor and BS 3 twinlinked guns.

Zzap Gun: Make it so that you roll the strength before hitting and 11 and 12 are autohits, AP 1 or allow another shot.

Mandrakes: Give the Nightfiend an option to buy a Pain Token, Rending for the squad and other goodies.

Trying to fix all the crappy units, especially from the older codices that suffer from strange design decisions along with edition mismatch would take all day.

Penal Legion Squad: Let the player choose the special ability.
Why: What other squad in the entire game has a random ability? It's easier to build a list if you know what you're taking before the dice start rolling.

Well, there's the Possessed, of course, and they would really need that more than penal legion considering each squads cost.

Also give both honor guard and Company Command squads the ability to take Jump Packs

Pretty much everything in there...

Guardians:7 Points per model

conscripts:Some sort of "en masse rule where if a unit is Assualtet by the Group And are Outnumbered (by that ,I mean The Conscripts out number them 2/1 or 3/1) Said umit must IMMEDIATELY make a leadership test.

Deff Dread:give it the Fleet USR or AV 13 Fontal armor for 15+points.

Knight Commander Pask:Some sort of rule like FRFSRF,and give the squad BS4.

Eldar Guardians: For every three Guardians you may take a heavy weapon platform.

Eldar Defender Guardian - Increase armour to 4+, increase weapon range to 18", one Guardian may replace his Shuriken Catapult for a Shuriken Cannon for every 10 Guardians (they are assault 3)

Eldar Storm Guardian - Increase armour to 4+, CC weapons force re-roll of successful armour saves, one special weapon for every 5 Guardians.

(Dire Avengers since they're so similar to Defenders - uses Shuriken Catapult statistic in close combat as well, the full statistic including AP)

(No other Eldar units enjoy an increased armour save, only Guardians)

Reasons:
1. Eldar is a dying race, cheapening their units makes no sense
2. Eldar is an advanced race, giving boffer weapons to their precious HR makes no sense

Guardian Armour should be a 5+ in my opinion. Remember that guardians are the civillians of the Eldar, and won't be as heavily armoured as Aspect Warriors, who deserve that 4+. You also have Dark Eldar Kabalite warriors, who only have a 5+, giving guardians a 4+ will mean that your lowliest troop is better than IG, DE...

You also have to remember that you have better troops to buy, which will have the same save as a civillian with basic combat training, where would the point in using DAs or anything over guardians be?

Requia wrote:

bucheonman wrote:
Parasite of Mortrex:

Give him T5 or make him immune to insta-kill.

Parasite needs his spawned units not to count for KP more, he's got IC to deflect those nasty shots too.

Now Doom *really* needs this, 10 wounds but dies from a single krak missile? bugger that.

Fraking really? Eternal Warrior on Doom? too much.

Shining Spears: drop the cost to 25 a model, 6+ invuln and counter-charge. make CC an upgrade. increase the max unit size to 10. feel the pain.

Chimera - make the fire points only able to use lasguns.

Oh, wait, you meant ineffective bad instead of overpowered bad...

dancingcricket wrote:Chimera - make the fire points only able to use lasguns.

Oh, wait, you meant ineffective bad instead of overpowered bad...

Here we go again.

Please take the IG hate elsewhere... nobody wants to hear it.

Back on topic:

Ogryn:
I would say half these guys points cost for starters and then give them the option to purchase power weapons on a per model basis.
Make them a true h2h unit.

HWS:
Revert them to prior edition stats and make them count as two separate models, not the current T3 W2 single model bs.

Ratlings:
change them from T2 to T3 at a min.

jp400 wrote:

dancingcricket wrote:Chimera - make the fire points only able to use lasguns.

Oh, wait, you meant ineffective bad instead of overpowered bad...

Here we go again.

Please take the IG hate elsewhere... nobody wants to hear it.

Back on topic:

Ogryn:
I would say half these guys points cost for starters and then give them the option to purchase power weapons on a per model basis.
Make them a true h2h unit.
Agreed

HWS:
Revert them to prior edition stats and make them count as two separate models, not the current T3 W2 single model bs.
Why does this matter? For the bases? I can see that.

Ratlings:
change them from T2 to T3 at a min.
I think they'd be better served getting a point reduction to 7 points a model, on par with Vets. I've never had a problem with their stats.

Lonecoon wrote:

jp400 wrote:

dancingcricket wrote:Chimera - make the fire points only able to use lasguns.

Oh, wait, you meant ineffective bad instead of overpowered bad...

Here we go again.

Please take the IG hate elsewhere... nobody wants to hear it.

Back on topic:

Ogryn:
I would say half these guys points cost for starters and then give them the option to purchase power weapons on a per model basis.
Make them a true h2h unit.
Agreed

HWS:
Revert them to prior edition stats and make them count as two separate models, not the current T3 W2 single model bs.
Why does this matter? For the bases? I can see that.

Ratlings:
change them from T2 to T3 at a min.
I think they'd be better served getting a point reduction to 7 points a model, on par with Vets. I've never had a problem with their stats.

HWS: Bases are a slight concern, but not the main one. Having two wounds on a T3 5+ Sv model is... pointless and leads to them being easier to kill.

Ratlings: Thanks for point out the point cost. Completely forgot that. Yes, 7pts each with a T3 increase was what I wanted to say. Lets face it, T2 even for a guardsmen is junk.

Make flash shi.... ahem flash gitz erm.... NOT EXIST! bloody pointless unit.

ChocolateGork wrote:pariahs-give the necron special rule.

vanguard-5 point jump packs.

firewarriors-make them 8 points

Pariahs definitely need a boost.. badly.. Necron rule will make them more viable in combat. That or at least an invuln save.. otherwise they are wrecked in every game.

Vanguard boost I definitely approve of. I've been wanting to use vanguard pretty badly its always the points that make me say no.

gr1m_dan wrote:+1'000'000

Also -

Crisis Suits - BS4, change nothing else, just this. Elites?! Pfft.

I disagree with this... Yes they're the elite choices and I understand the fluff.. but there's a lot of fluff disregarded or not applied to either keep the balance in the game or its just ignored (to not make the squad OP). You can already Shoot multiple targets in the suits and you have jetpacks.. In addition they have multiple wounds, shield drones, and the marker lights to ridiculous things for Tau armies. BS4 might change the game to the degree where everyone will stop playing Spacewolves/Guard/BA and start playing tau shooting armies

I think that Honor Guard should be able to take Jump Packs. The Chapter Master can, so why can't the finest warriors in the army (besides the captains and Chapter Masters themselves) take them? They are a retinue, so keeping them with the CM is important, they can't do this with Jump Pack/Bike upgrade for the Chapter Master.
EDIT:

gloomygrim wrote:
Make flash shi.... ahem flash gitz erm.... NOT EXIST! bloody pointless unit.

Flash Gitz are not pointless. They're ork shooty.. so they're not fantastic.. but they aren't pointless. They can be mad scary on the field when positioned well enough.

Grey Templar wrote:

Tazz Azrael wrote:Tactical Terminators- they should get something that will make them as usefull as SS/TH termies.... maybe let them have 4 heavy weapons per squad and let them have plasma cannons (they ahve heavy flamers, cyclone misiles, multi meltas and assault cannons so why not spread the love of plasma around) make the cyclone misile launcher a heavy 2

Plasma Cannons would be cool, but the rest is a little screwed up.


Tactical Terminators can NOT take Multi-meltas and Clyclone Missile launchers ARE Heavy 2.

Wow i really need to buy the fith edd codex..... and i always thought they had a option for the multi melta... owell say-la-vi

Flash gitz are just complete turd, lootas (although elite) are better shooty unit and have a better chance of killin somethin at range were a flash git may as well shoot then assault and if your doing that nobz with kombie weps will do a better job and why would you take x amount of flash gitz over x amount of killa kans.

I do really hate them lol

I like the chimera for SWSs, but I'd also give them frag grenades. Practically the ONLY UNIT IN THE GUARD CODEX that doesn't get them for free (and, indeed has no access to them whatsoever), and they're one of the few units I'd ever actually use them with.

Otherwise...

Vanquisher: give the gun S9 and AP1. Really not too much to ask for a single BS3 shot a turn for 155 points.

Hellhound: smoke grenades, because, really...

Eradicator: AP3 to make it even CLOSE to a proximity to the colossus. Reduce the S by 1 or increase the cost by 15 points, whatever. As-is, you're paying HOW much for a single heavy flamer?

Scout sentinels: 5 or 10 points cheaper, base. Get rid of outflanking if need be. Spending 50 points for a single lascannon shot is simply too crappy, especially when they're competing against vendettas who do the job way better, way cheaper, with non-open-topped AV12, and with a transport capacity to boot.

Ogryn: either better leadership or some way to give them a reroll to morale tests. Needing to spend 100 points and an HQ slot on a lord commissar just to make them effective is inconvenient.

Stormtroopers: I agree on the 15 points apiece thing. Not because they necessarily need to be cheaper, but because at 16 points apiece they UTTERLY DESTROY guard list-building, basically guaranteeing that you have spare points left over. As far as I can tell, they're like the only thing in the codex other than bolt guns not divisible by 5. As such, there is no way to take a stormie squad that isn't either 5 or 10 strong. Not required to "un-suck" a unit, so much as there's no reason for this to be off.

Techpriest: All you've got to do is give them the marine ability where they can walk up to a tank and fix it. Needing to start in base contact is just ludicrous.

Regular priests: W2. That way you don't have to hide them at the ABSOLUTE REAR of a blob. That or WS4.

Avatar 720 wrote:Guardian Armour should be a 5+ in my opinion. Remember that guardians are the civillians of the Eldar, and won't be as heavily armoured as Aspect Warriors, who deserve that 4+. You also have Dark Eldar Kabalite warriors, who only have a 5+, giving guardians a 4+ will mean that your lowliest troop is better than IG, DE...

You also have to remember that you have better troops to buy, which will have the same save as a civillian with basic combat training, where would the point in using DAs or anything over guardians be?

The DA vs Defender Guardian reasoning is actually rather irrelevant since their roles are already too similar one or the other will be more point efficient, they need to be separated. Now, if Defender Guardians are supposed to be crew, that I can swallow, but in that case you need to tie them to the heavy weapons rather than attach the heavy weapons as an afterthought. Of course... that approach creates a vacuum in which the Storm Guardians operate.
It's a charlie foxtrot in the Eldar Troop section where the only really good unit is the dedicated transport (but that's for a different thread).

They are supposed to be better armed and armoured than Imperial Guard (plus their training is also supposed to be better, since it's militia by Eldar standards, not human standards). How or what the Dark Eldar operate under is also not very interesting considering they are not at all equivalent, right down to the point where Dark Eldar has a total disregard for the lower classes well-being, something the Craftworld Eldar can ill afford. Additionally, without 4+ armour or some really fancy special rules, Storm Guardians just aren't going to do what their operating manual says they should (and fancy special rules is the realm of elite warriors, on the other hand.)

Aspect Warriors are more a priesthood than a standing army.

Ailaros wrote:I like the chimera for SWSs, but I'd also give them frag grenades. Practically the ONLY UNIT IN THE GUARD CODEX that doesn't get them for free (and, indeed has no access to them whatsoever), and they're one of the few units I'd ever actually use them with.

Otherwise...

Vanquisher: give the gun S9 and AP1. Really not too much to ask for a single BS3 shot a turn for 155 points.

Agree Fully. I run FW AC and the Vanq's there are down right scary for around the same points cost. Give em Slick Loaders (which allows them to fire 2x if they don't move) and own any AV target on the board.

Hellhound: smoke grenades, because, really...
Agreed. Makes NO sense.

Eradicator: AP3 to make it even CLOSE to a proximity to the colossus. Reduce the S by 1 or increase the cost by 15 points, whatever. As-is, you're paying HOW much for a single heavy flamer?

Agree.

Scout sentinels: 5 or 10 points cheaper, base. Get rid of outflanking if need be. Spending 50 points for a single lascannon shot is simply too crappy, especially when they're competing against vendettas who do the job way better, way cheaper, with non-open-topped AV12, and with a transport capacity to boot.

I say 5 pts cheaper, keep outflank or 10 pts cheaper and remove outflank.

Techpriest: All you've got to do is give them the marine ability where they can walk up to a tank and fix it. Needing to start in base contact is just ludicrous.

Never played with a IG one, so if this is the case then I fully agree.

Vespids

Change guns to Assault 2.
Armor should be a 4++ (to show that they are always flying around and hard to hit).
Poisoned weapons (3+) in close combat.
Finally, should be able to move 6" in the assault phase.

Keep point costs the same and this would be perfect for that unit.

gloomygrim wrote:
Flash gitz are just complete turd, lootas (although elite) are better shooty unit and have a better chance of killin somethin at range were a flash git may as well shoot then assault and if your doing that nobz with kombie weps will do a better job and why would you take x amount of flash gitz over x amount of killa kans.

I do really hate them lol

I'm not saying they're the best choice. I'm saying they're not a useless choice. They have a number of reroll hits.. and honestly? How many High strength, low hp shots are needed against any certain target?

If they had a bs of 3 and were able to upgrade to assault 3 then maybe they wouldnt be as bad but as they are what they do but as they are HS a battle wagon/kan mob/big guns will do what they do better and quicker there only redeeming fetures are the messure before you shoot and roll for ap, but there not enough for them to be used its two pro's for a lot of cons.

If your army is focused on infantry and you really dont want any armour then i guess thats were they would fit in, but apart from that i cant see when you would choose them, even in a friendly game and the no playing to win everytime i dont think there worth taking.

Its the old "i think they suck you think there ok" thing, we wont ever agree on it lol.

Wraithguard.

18" guns.

Spiritseer changes them to Troops no matter their size.

DarknessEternal wrote:Wraithguard.

18" guns.

Spiritseer changes them to Troops no matter their size.

Or to the very least, SC/Craftworld special rule which makes Wraithguard troops.

Thousand Sons Chaos Space Marines

Make them a fifth edition thing... You know...With a sergeant standard

Thousand Sons Squad- 165 points
One aspiring Sorcerer and nine thousand suns marines
He gets a force weapon and bolt pistol standard (plus power armor)
Alll 1k sons have a bolter and power armour (yeah, that's it)
Special rules- The psyker commands, slow and purposeful, all is dust, inferno bolts
'All is dust'- Same as third edition. Weapons and close combat attacks of strength five or less cannot wound thousand sons
May take a rhino for 35 points. The sorcerer may take any unidivided psychic power for free, and may take bolt of change for 30 points.

Thousand sons are just awful. Aspiring sorcerers can easily soar above 100 points, which is ridiculous for a W1 model. Not to mention your run-of-the-mill 1k son is vastly overpriced for not having ANY assault capability.


Noisy Marines- NOT a fifth edition style unit
-Dudes are twenty points each, and come with a Sonic Blaster standard, along with regular CSM stuff (grenades, pistol, CCW)
-For every five models in the squad, three can upgrade their sonic blaster to a blastmaster for twenty points OR take a power weapon for fifteen points.
-One marine can be upraded to a noise champion for 15 points. He gets a doom siren standard, and may upgrade his CCW and Pistol to a pair of Lightning claws for 20 points.


So basically, you can take them as either shooty or assaulty. I like the idea of six blastermasters in a unit of ten guys

I would say 6 is a bit much, making it a per 5 guys thing makes a good bit of sense though. Also a pair of lightning claws should preclude having a ranged weapon.

Give necron destroyers AP3 instead of AP4, drop the str or rate of fire.

For C:SM:

-Honor Guard: All should have Iron Halos.

-Scouts: Sniper Rifles should add +1 BS.

-Devestators: May replace boltguns with heavy flamers for 20 points or Astartes grenade launchers for 15 points. Also, Heavy Bolters should have an additional profile, that is either Assault or Rapid Fire.

-Chaplain Cassius: Add Relentless.

-Tactical Terminators: Sergeant may replace his Storm Bolter with Astartes Grenade Launcher for 5 points. Any model may replace Storm Bolter with a Combi-Weapon for 5 points.

For C: BA:

-Captains: All options as in C:SM, plus some BA ones.

-Tactical Terminators: Any model may replace Power Fist with Glaive Encarmine for 5 points. Any model may replace Storm Bolter with a Combi-Weapon for 5 points.

-Deeath Company: May Take Jump Packs for 5 Points each.

For C:SM and C:BA

-Librarians: May replace Boltpistol with a Storm Shield: 25 Points

-Squad may take Jump Packs at no additional cost.

For Space Wolves:

-Bjorn: Can Take a Drop Pod as Dedicated Transport

-Iron Priests: Independent Charachter

-Long Fangs: Squad leader may replace his bolt pistol with a boltgun: 0 points.

Rune Priests: May replace bolt pistol with Storm Shield for 25 Points. May Take a Thunderwolf Mount for 45 Points.

Chaos Raptors:

Make 18 points each.

jp400 wrote:

Ailaros wrote:I like the chimera for SWSs, but I'd also give them frag grenades. Practically the ONLY UNIT IN THE GUARD CODEX that doesn't get them for free (and, indeed has no access to them whatsoever), and they're one of the few units I'd ever actually use them with.

Otherwise...

Vanquisher: give the gun S9 and AP1. Really not too much to ask for a single BS3 shot a turn for 155 points.

Agree Fully. I run FW AC and the Vanq's there are down right scary for around the same points cost. Give em Slick Loaders (which allows them to fire 2x if they don't move) and own any AV target on the board.

Hellhound: smoke grenades, because, really...
Agreed. Makes NO sense.

Eradicator: AP3 to make it even CLOSE to a proximity to the colossus. Reduce the S by 1 or increase the cost by 15 points, whatever. As-is, you're paying HOW much for a single heavy flamer?

Agree.

Scout sentinels: 5 or 10 points cheaper, base. Get rid of outflanking if need be. Spending 50 points for a single lascannon shot is simply too crappy, especially when they're competing against vendettas who do the job way better, way cheaper, with non-open-topped AV12, and with a transport capacity to boot.

I say 5 pts cheaper, keep outflank or 10 pts cheaper and remove outflank.

Techpriest: All you've got to do is give them the marine ability where they can walk up to a tank and fix it. Needing to start in base contact is just ludicrous.

Never played with a IG one, so if this is the case then I fully agree.

Hate to rain on your parade, but Slick Loader can only affect ordanance weapons, and the Vanquisher Battle Cannon is a heavy weapon, which the description specifically says cannot benefit from Slick Loader.

Some love for Tyranids?

All troops choices (bar rippers) and fast attack choices (bar sky slashers) gain assault grenades! All units increase in price one point except for Tyranid Warriors who are expensive as is. The Tyranid Prime also gains assault grenades at no extra cost.

EDIT: Counter attack might be ok too... But I think grenades are much better.

I'd be happy just to have a flesh hook (acts as assault grenades) option for warriors, they already come with the parts for it after all.

Voidraven bomber

Make Void Lances AP 1 (from AP 2)

How are Voidravens broken? From what I've heard it's already pretty awesome.

Aren't Void Lances Str9? What you're saying is that you want a S9 Lance that is also AP1? You already have a better chance of breaking open AV13+ than a lascannon, why do you need the extra damage result if you're never rolling more than at least a 4 to penetrate?

Yeah, a strength 9 Lance doesn't need any more AP than it's already got. Not to mention the fact that it's got two of them, in addition to the plethora of missiles that it can put out.

Raynor933 wrote:

jp400 wrote:

Ailaros wrote:I like the chimera for SWSs, but I'd also give them frag grenades. Practically the ONLY UNIT IN THE GUARD CODEX that doesn't get them for free (and, indeed has no access to them whatsoever), and they're one of the few units I'd ever actually use them with.

Otherwise...

Vanquisher: give the gun S9 and AP1. Really not too much to ask for a single BS3 shot a turn for 155 points.

Agree Fully. I run FW AC and the Vanq's there are down right scary for around the same points cost. Give em Slick Loaders (which allows them to fire 2x if they don't move) and own any AV target on the board.

Hellhound: smoke grenades, because, really...
Agreed. Makes NO sense.

Eradicator: AP3 to make it even CLOSE to a proximity to the colossus. Reduce the S by 1 or increase the cost by 15 points, whatever. As-is, you're paying HOW much for a single heavy flamer?

Agree.

Scout sentinels: 5 or 10 points cheaper, base. Get rid of outflanking if need be. Spending 50 points for a single lascannon shot is simply too crappy, especially when they're competing against vendettas who do the job way better, way cheaper, with non-open-topped AV12, and with a transport capacity to boot.

I say 5 pts cheaper, keep outflank or 10 pts cheaper and remove outflank.

Techpriest: All you've got to do is give them the marine ability where they can walk up to a tank and fix it. Needing to start in base contact is just ludicrous.

Never played with a IG one, so if this is the case then I fully agree.

Hate to rain on your parade, but Slick Loader can only affect ordanance weapons, and the Vanquisher Battle Cannon is a heavy weapon, which the description specifically says cannot benefit from Slick Loader.

Which version are you using? Cause the printout straight from the FW website I have right here in my hand says otherwise.

Tigurius he's supposed to be a seasoned fighter yet has the same BS and Initiative of a tactical marine. So give him +1I, +1BS, +1W at least.

CSM independent characters:

Kharn: Give him eternal warrior
Ahriman: someting equal or against psychic hoods
Abaddon: 3rd ed daemon weapon rules with option of using 4th ed


CSM unit: something equal to ATSKNF and combat tactics

jp400 wrote:
Which version are you using? Cause the printout straight from the FW website I have right here in my hand says otherwise.

Where? I'd love this to be true, but I just went through the entire v1.1 update, and nowhere in that does it say that the Vanqusher Cannon there is not the Heavy 1 weapon it is in the normal codex.

He is talking about the forge world rules, not the codex ones.

Leman Russ Vanquisher: AP1 and some extra pain against MCs, if possible.

Leman Russ Punisher: 155 pts, and now it's USEFUL!

Rough Riders: Let them choose whether or not to use their lances, and give them close combat weapon AND laspistol.

Eldar Guardians- Change to 6 points per model. Can take 1 heavy weapon platform for every 10 models in the squad. Leave the rest as-is.

Swooping Hawks- Leave as is, but with a significant point decrease. (Maybe 15-16 points per model?)

Tau Fire Warriors- Change to 8 points per model.

Tau Pathfinders- Move to troops, remove mandatory transport.

Skyray- Reduce cost, or at least allow the missile rack to reload somehow.

Ethereal- Grants tablewide FNP (jk). Seriously though, maybe gives FNP to the unit he joins. Maybe Etherals gain a hover platform that lets them move as Jump Infantry (Jet Pack) so they can keep up with Crisis Suits. All of these would have a compensating increase in cost of course. Maybe Ethereals could even become a required unit in Tau forces over a certain size (a la the Emperor's Champion) as long as the Ethereal doesn't continue to suck.

Not just one race, but I'd let units either assault or move (just one) after deep striking. Shoot only if standing still.

To me, it just doesn't make sense to read about deep striking, how its soooo good (and they came racing out of the drop pod laying about... teleported in and killed everything before they could react...), but when its used all it does it present sweet targets.

papathrax wrote:Not just one race, but I'd let units either assault or move (just one) after deep striking

Have fun getting your face curb-stomped by Daemons, then. And BA.

gr1m_dan wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:

firewarriors-make them 8 points

+1'000'000

Also -

Crisis Suits - BS4, change nothing else, just this. Elites?! Pfft.

Indeed my bretheran...firewarrior currently cost more per model than hardened vets! who are VASTLY superior!
also, just to make the carbine competative, make it assault 2 rather than assault 1 with pinning. assault 2 with pinning means that its a viable choice for tau on the go, since they can still squeeze off 2 shots at 18"
Also? make kroot have armor standard...and drop their points to 6. they have one more strength than an ork boy but none of the benefits that an ork boy gets such as WAAAGH! or mob fearless...make field craft the optional upgrade instead...and make the krootox be able to be separate from the squad. Also? make him cheaper. he currently costs more than two space marines yet has one less bs t i LD and aboslutely no save. those 3 wounds aren't gonna mean jack against high strength weapons...he dies too easy.
Give ethereals an armor save (they're on a battlefield for christs sake!) and bring back Aun'shi or what ever his name is...
I have an entire thread on how to fix shadowsun...
Make stealth suits 20 points or so (thats how much grey knights are right?) and let them take plasma rifles as an upgrade (10 points? 15?)
I'd love to have an abfp on any suit but I can see how that would quickly become over powered vs guard and such...throwing so many pie plates around...then again guard have all those pie plates...
make advanced stabilizer come standard on broadsides for no point increase. (theyre already ungodly expensive...)
make the sky ray more like the whirlwind, with different missile loadouts and an increased capacity (since right now it can basically empty its entire compliment in one turn, thereby making it useless)
make gun drones (independant and otherwise) 8 points. because yes they may have twinlinked assault 2 weapons, but they have no leadership bonus and have the BS of orks.
Piranhas I'd like to see at the cost of a landspeeder (which has better bs and can carry two sets of bs 4 weapons...one of which is an assault cannon for crying out loud)
sting wings need to either be better at assault or shoot more shots to be worth the cost of a space marine. especially considering they only have a 5+ save.
pathfinders need a way to shoot on the go...in todays game its all about mobility and they're faaaar too static considering theyll take 2 turns to relocate and shoot. same goes for sniper teams. And a rail rifle only shoots 6" more than a pulse rifle? WTF? for that kind of cost I'll just take more firewarriors and hope their one less strength will do the job.
devilfish needs to be cheaper (sensing a pattern here?) currently it costs as much as a rhino with two storm bolters a hunter killer missile and the ability to ignore shaken rolls. 60 points I can live with, because it is a skimmer and it does have one more AV on the front, but it has one less bs!
finally, considering the cost of a pathfinder, or even a markerlight for any other team, it's very hard to justify that a markerdrone is worth as much as a stealth suit. at 15-20 points I'd find that more believable...
Well that all of my custom codex I can find...I'm pretty sure compared to BA and such that none of those upgrades will make them OP...

CSM: make Spawn have a 4+ save, Right now they dont have any save which is why no one uses them. If they had a bit of a save they would at least be useful for tying up an assault squad.

Orks: Kaptin Badrukk +1 BS, I dont need a 135pt flashgit with a bigger gun (which can now kill him) and +1WS, especially if he only has a choppa anyway.

Gavo wrote:

papathrax wrote:Not just one race, but I'd let units either assault or move (just one) after deep striking

Have fun getting your face curb-stomped by Daemons, then. And BA.

Actually, all units can move after they deepstrike. It's called running.

Also, space marines DO have the ability to assault out of deepstrike. It's called Heroic Intervention.

yea but thats one you gotta declare before you DS. I think he's looking for a more OP version where you can land, go "hey i'm in assault range I'm gonna assault you instead of shooting" and then om nom on my firewarriors

Yeah, thats what I'm looking for.

i play Guard, so believe me, I know the downside to what I'm saying. I just think its a little silly to DS in, then have everyone grouped together sitting still for a turn just waiting for me to shoot basilisks/plasma sentinels/marbo at them. Even just being able to move 6 inches would make DS a much more tactically viable option... Which it isn't if theres an ungodly amount of terrain anyway.

TH/SS Terminators: Give them FNP as standard with current price. They die too quickly to mass fire.

TWC: Give them 2+ saves. ML blow right though these guys

BloodCrushers: Give them 3 wounds. 2 wounds doesn't represent the size of a jugger enough. Make them 3 points more expensive.

Long Fangs: Give them ML for free. You lose guys so fast due to size squad restriction and they're really old. They should get ML for free, they would have latched on to one all this time.

Tyranids: Their entire codex is perfect, no weak links here.

IG: Reduce Vendetta cost. They can be shot by anything due to height----maybe take off 30 points or so and they'll be worth it. Also Chimeras only have side armor 10, they should cost no more than a rhino.



That's all I got for now.

Wait ... vendetta? VENDETTA? Why, in the name of the Emperor's Golden Toilet, is the Vendetta, one of the most powerful and useful units in the game, in this thread?

Yeah, thats what I'm looking for.

Hello, friend! Tired of your Deepstriking units not being able to instantly gore your unsuspecting enemies with the furious wrath of a thousand suns? Sick of your fancy teleporters freezing your units in time for an entire assault phase?

Well, my friend, I have just what you're looking for.

Join Chaos!

The benefits are great! With our Daemonic Summoning, any one of your well-placed and unsuspecting sergeants could become the unwilling vessel for an unholy manifestation of all that is wrong with the universe! And the best part?

You can assault right away!

Yessir, that's right! No waiting around while your mighty soul-raping monstrosity picks its nose! Right when Sergeant Kallistor explodes in a shower of gore that reforms itself into the very face of madness and decay, you're guaranteed a free assault! All you have to do is drive your shiny transports up to the enemy's noses beforehand! Sound good? IT GETS BETTER!

You're also given the option of summoning a delightful ravening horde of daemons from the nightmare dimension of the warp! These happy little servants of the Chaos God of your choice will gladly disembowel your enemies with both grace and skill, and they're an amazing party trick. Oh, and I almost forgot... They too can assault out of Deepstrike! All you need is an Icon of Chaos to guide them into the material realm, and then you can sit back and watch the fun!

Oh, and did I mention that they never scatter? It's a win-win-win-win! That's four wins, all at once!


...Yeah, so basically Chaos can do that, is what I'm saying.

AgeOfEgos wrote:TH/SS Terminators: Give them FNP as standard with current price. They die too quickly to mass fire.

TWC: Give them 2+ saves. ML blow right though these guys

BloodCrushers: Give them 3 wounds. 2 wounds doesn't represent the size of a jugger enough. Make them 3 points more expensive.

Long Fangs: Give them ML for free. You lose guys so fast due to size squad restriction and they're really old. They should get ML for free, they would have latched on to one all this time.

Tyranids: Their entire codex is perfect, no weak links here.

IG: Reduce Vendetta cost. They can be shot by anything due to height----maybe take off 30 points or so and they'll be worth it. Also Chimeras only have side armor 10, they should cost no more than a rhino.



That's all I got for now.

..............

I disagree with everything you said.

I think your post is nothing more then an elaborate troll... cause with your upgrades everything listed here would be massively overpowered..
Not to mention thinking the Nid dex is perfect...
ROFL!

Melissia wrote:Wait ... vendetta? VENDETTA? Why, in the name of the Emperor's Golden Toilet, is the Vendetta, one of the most powerful and useful units in the game, in this thread?

My post was just joking around Melissa . I disagree with everything I put~!



Squads from two armies I really want to see fixed:


IG: Ogryns: Give them 4+ armor saves, lower their cost a bit.
Rough Riders: Give them 4+ armor saves, lower them to 8 points

Tyranid Codex: Have Phil Kelly rewrite the entire thing, let Cruddance pack bitz boxes. I don't have the energy to address everything wrong in this codex....but safe to say this should be the most tinker-friendly army in the entirety of the 40k Universe. They live to adapt, evolve and their codex is anything but. What a travesty and I don't even play Nids.

AgeOfEgos wrote:TH/SS Terminators: Give them FNP as standard with current price. They die too quickly to mass fire.

TWC: Give them 2+ saves. ML blow right though these guys

BloodCrushers: Give them 3 wounds. 2 wounds doesn't represent the size of a jugger enough. Make them 3 points more expensive.

Long Fangs: Give them ML for free. You lose guys so fast due to size squad restriction and they're really old. They should get ML for free, they would have latched on to one all this time.

Tyranids: Their entire codex is perfect, no weak links here.

IG: Reduce Vendetta cost. They can be shot by anything due to height----maybe take off 30 points or so and they'll be worth it. Also Chimeras only have side armor 10, they should cost no more than a rhino.



That's all I got for now.

Great minds think alike

MOTF: Make it an option to include to swap the master of the armoury rule for something that lets all Rhino-based tanks have the repair ability of the base Rhino. Or go ahead and stick in an 'Iron Father' upgrade with Chapter Tactics: No Chaplains, but all veterans (including terminators and SM sgts) have a one-time FNP (to represent the bionics). Less a 'underpowered' issue than I really feel that IH kinda got the shaft in the army list.

the MOTF is fine as is, dred spam si very fun, but Bionics would be cool.

maybe a 20 point upgrade for every Sergeant, Sternguard, and Vanguard to get a 5+ invuln save. IF you take a MOTF.

Here's my fix for the Skyray:
Wargear upgrade for like 20 pts:
Satellite Targeting.
Before the beginning of the owner's turn, roll 1d6; place this number of markerlights on any enemy unit (or units) within LoS of a Tau Skyray or Pathfinder with the total number of markerlight tokens not to exceed the die roll. No roll to hit is required; however, these tokens may only be used by a vehicle with the Satellite Targeting wargear. This ability may always be used until the vehicle is destroyed.

Then I'd add this as standard:
Alpha Strike
Once per game, the Skyray may fire all of its remaining Seeker missiles in one barrage at a target that is within LoS of the Skyray and regardless of whether the target has a markerlight token. This is treated as a Barrage 1 fired by a BS equal to the vehicle's current BS, large blast marker with Strength equal to 3 plus the number of missiles fired and AP equal to 7 minus the number of missiles fired.

And finally this:
When a skyray has exhausted its supply of seeker missiles, it may choose to reload; this takes one complete turn during which the skyray may not move or fire any weapons as the crew is completely absorbed in the reloading process.

There wouldn't be a Tau player around that wouldn't jump at something like that.

Rough Riders: Make them 15 points. Give them 2 wounds. Keep everything else the same.

I know you're thinking "OMFG! Overpowered!" Maybe, but here's the logic: Rough Riders are primarily a melee unit. They currently cost twice what a guardsman does, but don't really do any better than them except on the initial charge. They're a suicide unit right now. Give each model an extra wound would increase their staying power. Keeping the same average stats means that he's not hitting any more often, but he is staying in the fight longer. This allows you to strike, run away, then come back for a second charge.

Failing that, increase their WS to 4, because seriously, you've got dudes on horseback with spears. They know how to handle a damn weapon.

Avatar 720 wrote:Aren't Void Lances Str9? What you're saying is that you want a S9 Lance that is also AP1? You already have a better chance of breaking open AV13+ than a lascannon, why do you need the extra damage result if you're never rolling more than at least a 4 to penetrate?

yes I want Str9 AP1
the void raven costs 145 point and has 2 VLs.
a ravager costs 105 points and has 3 DLs.
The ravager will get more glances and more pens against all forms of armor vunerable to the "lance rule". 2 void lances are better than 3 dark lances against monoliths and a blessed hull land raiders. That is it. Is that worth 40 extra points when its far worse against everything else?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shelegelah wrote:Yeah, a strength 9 Lance doesn't need any more AP than it's already got. Not to mention the fact that it's got two of them, in addition to the plethora of missiles that it can put out.

again, a ravager has 3 lances, which is better than 2 slightly stronger ones unless the stronger ones are more likely to do damage. The missiles are ok, but you have to pay for them. The Razorwing gets its missiles for free which makes it a ton more useful.

Ailaros wrote:Techpriest: All you've got to do is give them the marine ability where they can walk up to a tank and fix it. Needing to start in base contact is just ludicrous.

They already have that. The only difference between Techpriest and Techmarine Blessings of the Omnissiah is that the Techpriest doesn't have access to a servoharness. It's only necessary to be in base contact with a damaged vehicle in the shooting phase and neither gone to ground nor falling back. The vehicle can even shoot a gun that was repaired that turn just like if a Techmarine fixed it. The previous codex's techpriest did have to start the turn in base contact but that was fixed in the current codex.


edit: And since I'm already here, it'd be nice if rough riders got back the options to not take hunting lances (or lose the requirement to use the lance on the first charge) and to upgrade the entire squad with melta bombs. I started converting a squad of those guys back before the codex changed to make lances mandatory and remove the melta bomb option. The unit isn't so much crappy as it is niche but it got one of its niches downgraded with this codex.

Sentinels: Not much you can do to make them better without major changes, but maybe make them a little cheaper so they aren't quite so inefficient?

Priests: The way they work in Witch Hunters and Krieg siege regiments makes them considerably scarier. Instead of being ICs they just attach to a squad before the game starts. It'd be nice if their special ability worked on Ogryn and it would make sense for it not to work with techpriests and servitors.

Penal Legion: Fundamentally flawed, complete rewrite. They're supposed to be desperate, expendable men, not expensive guys with random superpowers.

Heavy weapons squad: If there were a lead heavy weapons team as a sort of sergeant equivalent that would solve a couple problems.

Raxmei wrote:They already have that. The only difference between Techpriest and Techmarine Blessings of the Omnissiah is that the Techpriest doesn't have access to a servoharness. It's only necessary to be in base contact with a damaged vehicle in the shooting phase and neither gone to ground nor falling back. The vehicle can even shoot a gun that was repaired that turn just like if a Techmarine fixed it. The previous codex's techpriest did have to start the turn in base contact but that was fixed in the current codex.

Unfortunately they can't, if I repair a gun my enemy has a whole nother turn to glance it, or destroy it again. This is why the techprist sucks...he just doesn't do enough to be worth it. Maybe if you let him ignore shaken/stunned results it'd be better....As it stands, the Techpriest is a better objective than unit. He does have some shining ability in Apoc, where he can follow around a Baneblade or a Titan and play Mr. Fix it...but not in regular 40k. I'd rather find something more useful to spend 45 points on than a Techpriest.

agnosto wrote:Here's my fix for the Skyray:
Wargear upgrade for like 20 pts:
Satellite Targeting.
Before the beginning of the owner's turn, roll 1d6; place this number of markerlights on any enemy unit (or units) within LoS of a Tau Skyray or Pathfinder with the total number of markerlight tokens not to exceed the die roll. No roll to hit is required; however, these tokens may only be used by a vehicle with the Satellite Targeting wargear. This ability may always be used until the vehicle is destroyed.

Then I'd add this as standard:
Alpha Strike
Once per game, the Skyray may fire all of its remaining Seeker missiles in one barrage at a target that is within LoS of the Skyray and regardless of whether the target has a markerlight token. This is treated as a Barrage 1 fired by a BS equal to the vehicle's current BS, large blast marker with Strength equal to 3 plus the number of missiles fired and AP equal to 7 minus the number of missiles fired.

And finally this:
When a skyray has exhausted its supply of seeker missiles, it may choose to reload; this takes one complete turn during which the skyray may not move or fire any weapons as the crew is completely absorbed in the reloading process.

There wouldn't be a Tau player around that wouldn't jump at something like that.

This would be the awesomest thing ever. I have over 6k points of Tau and not a single Skyray because they are horrible and not fun. This would make me buy three. If nothing else because they would be fun to use.

Raxmei wrote:Heavy weapons squad: If there were a lead heavy weapons team as a sort of sergeant equivalent that would solve a couple problems.

Yeah, really, what's the deal? They should make HWSs a 4-model squad. 3 of them have to have heavy weapons, and the 4th comes with Ld8, +1A, and can take a vox.

ChrisWWII wrote:Unfortunately they can't, if I repair a gun my enemy has a whole nother turn to glance it, or destroy it again. This is why the techprist sucks...he just doesn't do enough to be worth it. Maybe if you let him ignore shaken/stunned results it'd be better....As it stands, the Techpriest is a better objective than unit. He does have some shining ability in Apoc, where he can follow around a Baneblade or a Titan and play Mr. Fix it...but not in regular 40k. I'd rather find something more useful to spend 45 points on than a Techpriest.

I'd interpreted the following shooting phase as later in that shooting phase. How do Space Marines play it with Techmarines? That part of their rules is worded identically.

Space Marine Techmarines can walk up, fix the gun, and the tank can then fire it in the same shooting phase.

it's pretty clear how it works.

Blessings of the Omnissiah, page 34. The Techpriest has to be in base contact with a vehicle in the shooting phase, so he can move there in the movement phase, and attempt to repair one Weapons Destroyed or Immobilised result on a 5+.

Now, directly quoting: "If a Weapon Destroyed result is repaired, that weapon can be fired in the following Shooting Phase." Following, and since the Techpriest is rolling to repair in this shooting phase, following shooting phase would be the next turn.

Make flashgitz loota priced, give badrukk a powerweapon, give them one of the upgrade options for free.

Make looted wagons 13/11/10, and why not just stick the boomgun on there by default.. no-one uses them as transports. Perhaps make don't press dat! a little less brutal.

weirdboys get wraphead by default, at no cost upgrade. Give them higher leadership. Throw in some minor powers that they can choose from, and let them use the minor one plus the random one in the same turn. Make a cheaper version of warphead that allows them to roll both dice and choose either result.

Ailaros wrote:

Raxmei wrote:Heavy weapons squad: If there were a lead heavy weapons team as a sort of sergeant equivalent that would solve a couple problems.

Yeah, really, what's the deal? They should make HWSs a 4-model squad. 3 of them have to have heavy weapons, and the 4th comes with Ld8, +1A, and can take a vox.

Agreed.

Ailaros wrote:

Raxmei wrote:Heavy weapons squad: If there were a lead heavy weapons team as a sort of sergeant equivalent that would solve a couple problems.

Yeah, really, what's the deal? They should make HWSs a 4-model squad. 3 of them have to have heavy weapons, and the 4th comes with Ld8, +1A, and can take a vox.

This would make them go from 'meh' to 'Ohh, useful!' I'm in full support of it.

In the VERY least, it would make it so that a single shot from a S6+ weapon doesn't stand a roughly 50% chance to make the whole squad run off the board. I mean, even if you had to pay like 10 points for the sergeant team upgrade, it would still be worth it most of the time.

Dunno, I like heavy weapons squads-- they already are useful. But that doesn't mean that they don't need improvements... just cause something is useful doesn't mean it is perfect.

loota boy wrote:Make flashgitz loota priced, give badrukk a powerweapon, give them one of the upgrade options for free.

Flash gitz have nob stats, making them Loota priced would be ridiculous, although I agree with the rest.

Weird boyz should be elites, IC, and be taken 1-3

For C:SM The Apothecary should become an Elite choice and come in squads of 1-3 that grant Feel No Pain to the entire squad and are ICs, Give them the choices to get power weapons and melta bombs.

Riddick40k wrote:For C:SM The Apothecary should become an Elite choice and come in squads of 1-3 that grant Feel No Pain to the entire squad and are ICs, Give them the choices to get power weapons and melta bombs.

I like that they can be added to any squad but giving them options for power weapons and melta bombs is going too far. They are supposed to be healing people not cutting down enemies and blowing up tanks.

"Death or healing, I care not which you seek." ~DoW SM Apothecary.

Riddick40k wrote:For C:SM The Apothecary should become an Elite choice and come in squads of 1-3 that grant Feel No Pain to the entire squad and are ICs, Give them the choices to get power weapons and melta bombs.

The ability to give even more space marines army builds FNP?

No... Just no.

Yeah, I think I'd shy away from that. Not unless you're also going ot give every Ork squad the option to get a painboy which gives them FNP for free.

Not fixing a broken squad, but being able to add medics to IG blob squads would be nice, if a little OTT. They're the one squad in the IG codex that could really use FNP, but they can't get it.

Of course, FNP for Guardsmen is a lot less nasty then it would be for Marines...but I'm thinking a 50 man power blob with FNP, could be a bit broken...

Or even more broken, a sixty six man blob squad with twelve power weapons who are all WS4.

...Who can do that? Death Korps?

yep i think dkok can do that, also with power fists

Lets be real here, a IG with a power fist isn't really all that scary.

Actually, my idea for guard medics was sort of like Fabius Bile.

A medic costs 40 points, and is taken from fake HQ slots like a priest. At the beginning of the game, you must assign him to a squad (the medic is not an independent character).

A medic gives the squad to which he is assigned FNP (so long as the medic is alive) for +2 points per model in the squad.

That way, you could give a 50-man blob FNP, but the medic would cost you 140 points: the price of 30 more dudes.

That way the medic would be nice, but not necessarily an automatic choice.

Oh, and don't get me started about DKoK abuse...

One Guardsmen with a power fist isn't scary. But how about 12? And they have around 50 ablative wounds? And they have Stubborn +Ld9? Welcome to the hell of attrition that is powerblobs.


Edit: I rather like Ailaros's ideas for blob Medics...sounds rather interesting, and not too OP.

ChrisWWII wrote:One Guardsmen with a power fist isn't scary. But how about 12? And they have around 50 ablative wounds? And they have Stubborn +Ld9? Welcome to the hell of attrition that is powerblobs.


Edit: I rather like Ailaros's ideas for blob Medics...sounds rather interesting, and not too OP.

Sorry, but I still fail to see the scary in this.

jp400 wrote:Lets be real here, a IG with a power fist isn't really all that scary.

But twelve of them all at WS4 with about 44 ablative wounds IS pretty scary. The whole thing costs about 800 points mind you and that's without any special weapons, but it's still a very scary proposition. You could have two of them in a 1750 point army and combined with Orders good luck getting rid of THAT one kill point unit in a kill point game without losing kill points yourself. And the army would still have room for tanks and arty in a 2000 point army.

jp400 wrote:

Sorry, but I still fail to see the scary in this.

Ok, on the charge they will be hitting you with 36, WS4, S6, PW attacks, and 108 regular attacks. Even if that doesn't wipe you out, you have 54 bodies to go through before you even begin to damage the Guardsmen punching you with their powerfists. Marines will crumple under the sheer weight of attacks, Eldar won't be able to stand up against the masses of bodies. The only things that could out attrition them would be a swarm of Guants or Orks, and even then they'll be tied up for practically the rest of the game as they bash away at each other.

The Guardsmen will also hardly ever runaway thanks to re-rollable Leadership 9. Good luck breaking the deadlock.

Melissia wrote:

jp400 wrote:Lets be real here, a IG with a power fist isn't really all that scary.

But twelve of them all at WS4 with about 44 ablative wounds IS pretty scary. The whole thing costs about 800 points mind you and that's without any special weapons, but it's still a very scary proposition. You could have two of them in a 1750 point army and combined with Orders good luck getting rid of THAT one kill point unit in a kill point game without losing kill points yourself. And the army would still have room for tanks and arty in a 2000 point army.

I mean don't get me wrong, it sounds hard.. but I honestly wouldn't call it scary in my book. Then again, I like PIE/H Flamer throwing armies.. so I really haven't had much problems fighting blob IG.

Granted, this may just be a case of YMMV.

jp400 wrote:Sorry, but I still fail to see the scary in this.

Do the math.

6 WS4 dudes with power fists get 18 attacks on the charge. Let's assume that they don't have a priest for preferred enemy.

18 attacks yields 9 hits for 8 wounds. Said again, JUST the hidden powerfists just nearly aced a 10-man tac squad on their own. Said 18 attacks also bowls over a wraithlord after two rounds of combat. It also puts 3 penetrating hits and a glance on something with rear armor AV10 assuming it moved at combat speed.

And that's JUST ON THE CHARGE. After that you get TURN AFTER TURN of this kind of carnage until all 44 guardsmen are finally wiped out.

Power blobs destroy everything but like wraithlord on their own, and that's just with power weapons and a couple melta upgrades. You don't even need to do the math to see that. Power fists would just be insane.

... which is why DKoK is far from legal in competitive games.

ChrisWWII wrote:

jp400 wrote:

Sorry, but I still fail to see the scary in this.

Ok, on the charge they will be hitting you with 36, WS4, S6, PW attacks, and 108 regular attacks. Even if that doesn't wipe you out, you have 54 bodies to go through before you even begin to damage the Guardsmen punching you with their powerfists. Marines will crumple under the sheer weight of attacks, Eldar won't be able to stand up against the masses of bodies. The only things that could out attrition them would be a swarm of Guants or Orks, and even then they'll be tied up for practically the rest of the game as they bash away at each other.

The Guardsmen will also hardly ever runaway thanks to re-rollable Leadership 9. Good luck breaking the deadlock.

See, the thing is.. that entire squad isn't going to reach my lines untouched. And that is the key right there to defeating the blob.

I would be horrified to see what would happen if you got your hands on a DKoK powerblob army Ailaros. Just saying.

jp400 wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:

jp400 wrote:

Sorry, but I still fail to see the scary in this.

Ok, on the charge they will be hitting you with 36, WS4, S6, PW attacks, and 108 regular attacks. Even if that doesn't wipe you out, you have 54 bodies to go through before you even begin to damage the Guardsmen punching you with their powerfists. Marines will crumple under the sheer weight of attacks, Eldar won't be able to stand up against the masses of bodies. The only things that could out attrition them would be a swarm of Guants or Orks, and even then they'll be tied up for practically the rest of the game as they bash away at each other.

The Guardsmen will also hardly ever runaway thanks to re-rollable Leadership 9. Good luck breaking the deadlock.

See, the thing is.. that entire squad isn't going to reach my lines untouched. And that is the key right there to defeating the blob.

Given the other things that DKoK have, this isn't necessarily the case...

Besides, it's only 800 points, still plenty of points to spend on providing IG shooty to enhance its strength.

Plus, the only way to make sure they don't hit your stuff is to play a gunline, which is TERRIBLY vulnerable to powerfists when they DO make it in. Plus, good luck winning objectives games.

As melissa said, you can do both power blobs AND lots of shooty stuff. Guard are cheap that way. To assume that your gunline is going to get several turns of shooting at blobsmen unmolested is a fantasy.

Ailaros wrote:Plus, the only way to make sure they don't hit your stuff is to play a gunline, which is TERRIBLY vulnerable to powerfists when they DO make it in. Plus, good luck winning objectives games.

As melissa said, you can do both power blobs AND lots of shooty stuff. Guard are cheap that way. To assume that your gunline is going to get several turns of shooting at blobsmen unmolested is a fantasy.

Never said several turns. I just need one or two to make them manageable.

And all they need are one or two turns to reduce your ability to make them managable with proper heavy support...

Like I said, I think the problem we are having here is a pure and simple case of YMMV.

I, personally have never had a problem with managing blob squads around here. Not saying they are not tough, just I don't find them "scary" is all.

Ailaros wrote:Actually, my idea for guard medics was sort of like Fabius Bile.

A medic costs 40 points, and is taken from fake HQ slots like a priest. At the beginning of the game, you must assign him to a squad (the medic is not an independent character).

A medic gives the squad to which he is assigned FNP (so long as the medic is alive) for +2 points per model in the squad.

That way, you could give a 50-man blob FNP, but the medic would cost you 140 points: the price of 30 more dudes.

Interesting concept but the purchase method is strange. You don't know how much the medic costs until you decide which unit to put him in at the beginning of the game.

You really think you'd get 60 guys in b2b or within 2"? I have a hard enough time with 20 guys.

Kevin949 wrote:You really think you'd get 60 guys in b2b or within 2"? I have a hard enough time with 20 guys.

You don't need 60 guys in b2b or withing 2", you only need 12. The other guys are there to be ablative wounds, and maybe get a lucky bayonet hit or something.

Sure, but then you're missing out on a ton of other attacks, which was part of (I believe) your statement in the previous page.

ChrisWWII wrote:

jp400 wrote:

Sorry, but I still fail to see the scary in this.

Ok, on the charge they will be hitting you with 36, WS4, S6, PW attacks, and 108 regular attacks. Even if that doesn't wipe you out, you have 54 bodies to go through before you even begin to damage the Guardsmen punching you with their powerfists. Marines will crumple under the sheer weight of attacks, Eldar won't be able to stand up against the masses of bodies. The only things that could out attrition them would be a swarm of Guants or Orks, and even then they'll be tied up for practically the rest of the game as they bash away at each other.

The Guardsmen will also hardly ever runaway thanks to re-rollable Leadership 9. Good luck breaking the deadlock.

Well..... i have a newfound healthy respect for the Imperial Gaurd

Guard Blob squads got nothing on 6 Death Company Dreadnoughts with Blood Talons.

That's 36 S7 Ws5 Lightning Claw attacks that just keep killing until no puny guardsmen is left alive

Riddick40k wrote:Guard Blob squads got nothing on 6 Death Company Dreadnoughts with Blood Talons.

That's 36 S7 Ws5 Lightning Claw attacks that just keep killing until no puny guardsmen is left alive

...At HOW many points exactly? I mean a powerblob is clocking around 200 points for most normal ones, 6 DC dreadnoughts are an entire overkill of points. Sure they'll win combat. By spending around 4 times the points to deal with the threat in the first place!


And in the 'fixing a crappy squad' line-

Chaos Daemons- Furies.

Allow them to assault the turn they deep strike! This would give people incentive to actually buy/convert the nasty models, and its not horrificly unbalanced. If a veteran space marine in a jump pack can do it, why can't spiteful daemons consumed with hatred? Daemons seriously need a squad to overcome this handicap, and furies can't do enough damage on the charge to make this unfair, and it'll hold up shooting squads letting pressure off the rest of the army.

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:

Riddick40k wrote:Guard Blob squads got nothing on 6 Death Company Dreadnoughts with Blood Talons.

That's 36 S7 Ws5 Lightning Claw attacks that just keep killing until no puny guardsmen is left alive

...At HOW many points exactly? I mean a powerblob is clocking around 200 points for most normal ones, 6 DC dreadnoughts are an entire overkill of points. Sure they'll win combat. By spending around 4 times the points to deal with the threat in the first place!

6 DC dreadnoughts would cost 850 points (125 apiece) if it were possible to bring that many. The maximum it's possible to bring in a regular game is 5 with a 25-man death company which would itself cost 500 points or more. Few players are crazy enough to bring an army like that because of the massive points sink and lack of scoring units. Having Rage everywhere and not much in the way of mobility would tend to constrain the player's tactical choices as well. But we digress.


Leman Russ Punisher: Ap6. The gun's basically a gigantic heavy stubber so it might as well have comparable ap. What this effectively does is give it a boost for shooting light vehicles.

Black Templars

Marshall: Bring him up to 5th ed standards (+1WS, actually having BP/CCW and grenades free so I don't ahve to pay 1-3 pts for them and screw up my list)

Emperor's Champion: +1WS +1A +1W seriously, this guy is outshone by a mere space marine captain.

Sword Brethren: Increase their cost to 20pts, but give them two attacks base , with options for more special weapons. And obviously, give them grenades. Right now they're a bit of a joke next to Sanguinary Guard, Wolf Guard, Death Company and Vanguard Vets who are all in the same "club".

Codex wide: Grenades, everyone else has them...

Rhino: Free smoke launchers, again, just bring them up to 5th ed standards.

Exergy wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:Aren't Void Lances Str9? What you're saying is that you want a S9 Lance that is also AP1? You already have a better chance of breaking open AV13+ than a lascannon, why do you need the extra damage result if you're never rolling more than at least a 4 to penetrate?

yes I want Str9 AP1
the void raven costs 145 point and has 2 VLs.
a ravager costs 105 points and has 3 DLs.
The ravager will get more glances and more pens against all forms of armor vunerable to the "lance rule". 2 void lances are better than 3 dark lances against monoliths and a blessed hull land raiders. That is it. Is that worth 40 extra points when its far worse against everything else?

My Chaos Havocs with 2 lascannons cost 145pts, are you going to give them S9 AP1 too?

It seems you are annoyed about the cost, so instead of trying to justify the cost by upgrading, why not simply lower the cost? Two S9 AP1 Lance weapons are not worth 145pts

Also, a ravager does not get more pens against all forms of armour (for the purposes of ease of calculation, 16.66666 recurring has been rounded to 16.7 and 66.66666 recurring has been rounded to 66.7):

AV10:
2 Void Lances>1.334 Hits>1.111222% chance of penetrating
3 Dark Lances>2.001 Hits>1.334667% chance of penetrating

AV11:
2 Void Lances>1.334 Hit>0.889778% chance of penetrating
3 Dark Lances>2.001 Hits>1.0005% chance of penetrating

AV12:
2 Void Lances>1.334 Hit>0.667% chance of penetrating
3 Dark Lances>2.001 Hits>0.666333% chance of penetrating

As you can see, the dark lances are better against AV10 and 11 only, void lances are better against AV12, which is the highest you will see unless you come accross any lance resistant vehicles; DLs are best against lance resistant vehicles under AV12, VLs are best against AV12+

EDIT: Just checked and they are in fact BS4, so I will recalculate.
EDIT 2: Reculculated using BS4 and the result still stands.

BA
Let BA captain take Artificer Armor+ other thing that SM captain somehow get(many artificer my arse), change relic blade to somekind of super Glaive though, so at least captain would be useful

Give Sang Guard Invul (5+?)
Meph EW, the guy returned from death once, give him EW or at least Invul , actually Invul is better than EW, give him like 4+ invul

Tau
Shash'O'Ralai
let him switch drone please, i don't like my XV9 commander on t3

Invul(5+) to Crisis commander
More weapon option, useful ones

Tyranid
Lower Hive tyrant price and please give him and his bro Swarmlord 5+ invul or something
enhanced senses, I want my shooty nids
DoM,EW please
Lower point cost of Tyrannofex, otherwise rupture cannon standard

Blood Angels in general, and Meph in particular DEFINITELY do not need anything more. The only thing that PARTIALLY balanced Meph is that he has no invul save.

How about the fact that He cannot join a squad to use as extra lives

BA captain had no artificier armor, and Sanguinary guard had armor save which mean once they meet power weapon they die horribly, i don't mind increase in point cost

He doesn't need the ablative wounds. Blood Angels are already one of the strongest codexes out there, they don't need anymore buffing.

Agreed..

Lictors - can move, shoot, and assault as normal the turn they arrive. Pheromone Trail to something useful.

Make Mephiston S/T/I 5, remove fleet, IC

Replace Carnifex entry with the 4th edition version

CSM daemons can buy marks, at the very least

... Cult Terminators?

And I'm pretty sure that you can't use Slick Loader with a Vanquisher; at least as of the latest update I can find.

Raxmei wrote:

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:

Riddick40k wrote:Guard Blob squads got nothing on 6 Death Company Dreadnoughts with Blood Talons.

That's 36 S7 Ws5 Lightning Claw attacks that just keep killing until no puny guardsmen is left alive

...At HOW many points exactly? I mean a powerblob is clocking around 200 points for most normal ones, 6 DC dreadnoughts are an entire overkill of points. Sure they'll win combat. By spending around 4 times the points to deal with the threat in the first place!

6 DC dreadnoughts would cost 850 points (125 apiece) if it were possible to bring that many. The maximum it's possible to bring in a regular game is 5 with a 25-man death company which would itself cost 500 points or more. Few players are crazy enough to bring an army like that because of the massive points sink and lack of scoring units. Having Rage everywhere and not much in the way of mobility would tend to constrain the player's tactical choices as well. But we digress.


Leman Russ Punisher: Ap6. The gun's basically a gigantic heavy stubber so it might as well have comparable ap. What this effectively does is give it a boost for shooting light vehicles.

Wow who taught you math? You get 1 Death Company Dread for every 5 death company models and you can have 30 death company usually so that means you can have 6 dreads. 30/5=6 and even then if you take astroth you can have even more

Lonecoon wrote:Storm troopers: Reduce the cost to 15 points per model
Why: Vets cost 7 points a model. Add 3 points for deep strike, 2 for carapace armor, 2 for Hotshot lasgun, and 1 for special ability. Instead of 85 points for a base squad, you now spend 80, which makes them an easier sell.

Jyst saying, vets and storm troopers are NOT supposed to do the same thing. Storm troopers are perfectly fine as is, they just have a different role than veterans.


Anyhow: Grimaldus should get +1 wound and be Eternal Warrior, in addition to his current rules. Oh, and reduce his cost a tad and remove the cenobytes, making them an upgrade option, in case you don't feel like wasting 3 spots in a transport.

Helbrect probably needs a bit of an overhaul.

Increase his weapon skill, give him orbital bombardment, make his sword a +D3 attacks on the charge relic blade.

As far as special rules go, keep the super command squad, and rites of battle and give him a rule to represent his fleet command abilities, like giving one unit deep strike or something. Similar to Creed's "tactical genius"

Obviously, cost would increase, probably to 200-225.

Riddick40k wrote:

Raxmei wrote:

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:

Riddick40k wrote:Guard Blob squads got nothing on 6 Death Company Dreadnoughts with Blood Talons.

That's 36 S7 Ws5 Lightning Claw attacks that just keep killing until no puny guardsmen is left alive

...At HOW many points exactly? I mean a powerblob is clocking around 200 points for most normal ones, 6 DC dreadnoughts are an entire overkill of points. Sure they'll win combat. By spending around 4 times the points to deal with the threat in the first place!

6 DC dreadnoughts would cost 850 points (125 apiece) if it were possible to bring that many. The maximum it's possible to bring in a regular game is 5 with a 25-man death company which would itself cost 500 points or more. Few players are crazy enough to bring an army like that because of the massive points sink and lack of scoring units. Having Rage everywhere and not much in the way of mobility would tend to constrain the player's tactical choices as well. But we digress.


Leman Russ Punisher: Ap6. The gun's basically a gigantic heavy stubber so it might as well have comparable ap. What this effectively does is give it a boost for shooting light vehicles.

Wow who taught you math? You get 1 Death Company Dread for every 5 death company models and you can have 30 death company usually so that means you can have 6 dreads. 30/5=6 and even then if you take astroth you can have even more

Death Company and DC dreads take up troops choices. If you brought 6 DC dreads you'd exceed the limit of 6 troops choices.

Raxmei wrote:Leman Russ Punisher: Ap6. The gun's basically a gigantic heavy stubber so it might as well have comparable ap. What this effectively does is give it a boost for shooting light vehicles.

... You need perfect penetration to glance the lightest vehicles. I don't think this helps anything. The Punisher is just not meant to shoot vehicles. It's awesome against most every infantry foe, I've killed everything from Termagaunts to Chaos Terminators with it, but it can't do crap to anything on wheels. Or hovering. Whatever.

Raynor933 wrote:

Raxmei wrote:Leman Russ Punisher: Ap6. The gun's basically a gigantic heavy stubber so it might as well have comparable ap. What this effectively does is give it a boost for shooting light vehicles.

... You need perfect penetration to glance the lightest vehicles. I don't think this helps anything. The Punisher is just not meant to shoot vehicles. It's awesome against most every infantry foe, I've killed everything from Termagaunts to Chaos Terminators with it, but it can't do crap to anything on wheels. Or hovering. Whatever.

S5 can penetrate av10 and glance 11, and you get 20 tries. Losing Ap- would enable them to immobilize rhinos. It'd make more difference than you might think, especially if Pask is in command.

20 Shots from S5 punisher against:

AV10:
20 Shots>10 Hits>1.67 glancing hits/1.67 penetrating hits.

AV11:
20 Shots>10 Hits>1.67 glancing hits.

You're effectively looking at 1-2 successful glances/penetrates against AV10/11 per salvo (in theory), with updated AP6 allowing immobilisation, which seems pretty balanced on paper.

I'm a slow, for some reason the comment "basically a gigantic heavy stubber" stuck the thought in my head that the Punisher was S4. My bad. I still wouldn't be firing my Punisher at vehicles, but I guess the ability to immobilize or destroy light vehicles would be nice to have in a pinch.