Another year of the Broadside Bash has come and gone. This is a GT event, 2 days, 5 games and is a Golden Ticket event as well.

However, it is also the most soft score heavy GT event in the country, to my knowledge.

To give you an idea of what I meant, the actual spread of battle points you could earn in the game was 20, only 19% of the actual points. Painting was 37 points, sportsmanship 5, 5 points per favorite player votes, comp 3 points, etc.

It is more of a hobby event, than a real tournament, IMO.

That said, it is still a really fun event and worth going to.

For more details on the structure of the event and a more thorough breakdown of the scoring and missions, check out Blood of Kittens http://bloodofkittens.com/ in the next few days for my review article.

In short, I had "lost" tournament before it even began. Why? because my army didn't get the "Hardcore" award which was essentially a comp score. 3 points for what judges felt was a fluffy army. I also didn't get my army list in on time (another 2 points) and I didn't have a display board (3 points).

Before a die was rolled, I was down 8 points, the same as getting 2 massacres. Best overall was out!

So I was going for best general as I normally do. That hope died quickly as you will soon see!

Here is a picture of me, Wonder Woman (who was doing promotions at the con) and Josh, one of two member of my Pit team! He and his brother Harrison were my little amigos this tournament. Their Dad was playing Fantasy and they decided to hang out with me. They kicked butt, rolling dice, making sure to rub a lucky wolf tail on them to keep them hot, making sure I always had a fresh beer on the table. Couldn't have asked for a better couple of helpers!

Wonder Woman was just hot. Really hot. She did the costume justice. I dang near lost a game while staring at her which you will read about in a minute!

Game 1

I brought the trusty Bjorn Wolves as I didn't have time to finish my Bugs.

My list: the Trusty Bjorn Wolves

Bjorn Wolves 2000 Points
Unit Description Size Cost
HQ
Bjorn P.Cannon 1 270
Rune Priest JotWW, Storm Caller 1 100

Troops
Grey Hunters Flamer, Razorback, A.Cannon 6 150
Grey Hunters Flamer, Razorback, A.Cannon 6 150
Grey Hunters Melta, Lazorback 6 155
Grey Hunters Melta, Razorback 6 120

Elites
Dreadnought L.Cannon, H.Flamer 1 145
Dreadnought L.Cannon, H.Flamer 1 145

Fast Attack
Land Speeder Typhoon 1 90
Land Speeder Typhoon 1 90
Land Speeder Typhoon 1 90

Heavy Support
Long Fangs M.Launcher x 5 6 140
Long Fangs M.Launcher x 5 6 140
Long Fangs M.Launcher x 5, Lazorback 7 215

Totals 50 2000


Opponent: Doug
Army: Da Red Crushas led by Warboss Led Foot
Mission: 3 objectives along a diagonal line equidistant from one another. Middle objective is worth 2 points per game turn, far objectives worth 1 point per game turn.

HQ
Warboss Led Foot: Eavy Armor, Pole, Cubork, Klaw, Shoota
Mek Nitro: KFF, Klaw, Grot Oiler

Troops
Nobz x 6: Painboy, Cyborks, Klaw, Big Choppa, Pole
Battlewagon: Deff Rolla, Grabbin Klaw, Red Paint, Boarding Plank, Big Shoota x 2
Boyz x 19: Nob, Klaw, Eavy Armor, Rokkit
Battlewagon: Deff Rolla, Grabbin Klaw, Red Paint, Boarding Plank, Big Shoota x 2
Boyz x 19: Nob, Klaw, Eavy Armor, Rokkit
Battlewagon: Deff Rolla, Grabbin Klaw, Red Paint, Boarding Plank, Big Shoota x 2
Boyz x 19: Nob, Klaw, Eavy Armor, Rokkit
Battlewagon: Deff Rolla, Grabbin Klaw, Red Paint, Boarding Plank, Big Shoota x 2
Ard Boyz x 12: Nob, Klaw, Pole, Rokkit
Trukk: Red Paint, Ram, Boarding Plank, Rokkit
Elites
Fast
Buggy: Rokkit
Deffkopta: Rokkit, Buzzsaw
Heavy


So this was pretty much the worst possible missions match up for me. I play Orks a lot with my Wolves and my tried and true tactic is to start deployed in a castle and then back up and spread out. I don't want to be anywhere near his units with my fragile shooty units.

He won first turn, and moved onto all of the objectives turn one. To get a massacre all he needed was 3 points, which he would have had immediately. Then, all he would have to do would be to sit on them for the rest of the game and win. So, I had to immediately go towards him to contest the objectives which meant my units were running forward into the Deff Rollas instead of shooting.

You can probably guess how well that went over. I got my ass kicked! Tabled! I have never been tabeled before in a tournament game, hahaha, oh for shame!

Not only was this mission match-up a complete kick in the nuts, my opponent had red hot dice. He failed 2 KFF saves all game. Everything that needed to go his way, did. It was ugly, the game was seriously over on turn two.

Oh well, my ego was bruised at receiving such an ass kicking but unless I had gone first and his KFF saves were average or lower, I didn't stand a chance. This was a very poorly designed tournament mission as it created such big missmatches. I think this mission would be fun in casual play, but not for a big GT.

My opponent was nice enough to give me a hug after the game, though! Hahaha, I needed some TLC after that reaming.

Ugh, missions like that are what keep me from the BSB, unfortunately, even though it is 20 minutes from my house. It is a shame because I really like Kurt and those guys. I just know myself too well, and those missions totally poison the experience - even if I am the one with the auto win.

Game 2
Opponent: Russel and his Stormwolves (Vlka Fenryka)
Mission: Hold 6 objectives to massacre, less for minor down to tie. Pitched Battle Deployment

HQ
Harkkon Thundercrow (Rune Priest): Jaws, Living Lightening
Roand Frostfire (Wolf Priest): Melta Bombs

Elites
Wolfguard x 10: 1 with fist, 2 with power weapons attached to grey hunters, 7 in termie armor with a mix of storm shields, hammers, heavy flamer, etc.

Troops
Grey Hunters x 8: Melta, power weapon
Rhino
Grey Hunters x 8: Melta, power weapon
Rhino
Grey Hunters x 8: Melta, power weapon
Rhino
Grey Hunters x 5
Rhino

Fast
Typhoon
Typhoon

Heavy
Vindicator: Dozer
LRC: M.Melta
Long Fangs x 6: M.Launcher x 5

Wolves on Wolves!

I got first turn and alpha struck my opponent pretty hard. He realized he couldn't trade broadsides with me and decided to bum rush me, which was honestly his best hope. So he charged headlong into my guns hoping to cripple enough of my scoring units to deny me a massacre.

My army is very powerful but it is also very unforgiving, especially in a game like this where you need all of your troops to live. As I redeployed firing into him, Wonder Woman (see above) came over to chit-chat and I made a total bone head move. I deployed two units of troops out of their Razorbacks right in front of his LRC with an assault termie squad and Wolf Priest in it! Doh!

So by the time I realized what I had done, it was way too late. But, by pure luck, Bjorn was in range of the tank and so I charged it with him and the Grey Hunters and by pure luck, Bjorn managed to hit it (needing 6s) and stun it. Since it didn't have extra armor, it couldn't move and my boys were covering all the doors so the deathstar inside couldn't get out! Bullet dodged. The rest of the game my boys spread out to claim two objectives while still keeping the Termies stuck in their metal box.

My opponent almost got back in the game when he charged in with his Grey Hunters on my weak flank and managed to engage a number of units. This kept him safe from shooting and he I was out of range to contest the objectives he was on. So, last turn, I sent all of my Typhoons flat-out onto his objectives and he failed to destroy any of them, which gave me the Major Win.

Lady luck deserted me the last game but came back to me this one. She is fickle!

I had a couple buddies head down for BSB cool to see some reports coming out of the event.

@Somnicide
Yeah, that mission was just bad. UNless it was two shooty or two assault armies playing each other it was a terrible match up. Some armies are not designed to go at one another.

But hey, it is what it is. I came to this event knowing it would be wonky and weird and just drank a lot of beer and laughed it up with friends. I didn't look at it as a tournament.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Huckelberry
Yeah man it was fun, I probably met some of your buddies there.

How do you think would have change your first game if the mission was something else? List wise, your list was merely a pure spam of MLs. You have absolutely no way to stop AV14, no countercharging units (TWC), and no traffic blocking capability.
Personally, I don't like the list you are taking.

That first mission if your opponent goes first and camps out on some of the objectives you'll find yourself in a deep hole real quick - the only way to win in that situation is to table your opponent, which might not be possible. As such I'm not a nif fan of that particular mission. You lost pretty much from the start. Nothing you can do about it either.

Game 3
Opponent: Chirs' Amurikan Orks
Mission: Modified Victory Points. Destroy a unit completely to get it's VPs. Spearhead deployment.

Chris' List from memory

HQ
Warboss: Klaw, Pole
Mek: Shokk Attak Gun

Troops
Boyz x 20: B.Shootas x 2, Nob, Pole, Klaw
B.Wagon: Red paint, Deff Rolla, B.Shootas
Boyz x 20: B.Shootas x 2, Nob, Pole, Klaw
B.Wagon: Red paint, Deff Rolla, B.Shootas
Nobz x 6: Cyborks, Diversified, Painboy, Klaw x 2
Trukk: Red Paint, Rokkit
Boyz x 12: Nob, Klaw, Rokkit, Pole
Trukk: Red Paint, Rokkit

Elites
Lootas x 12

Fast
Deffkoptas x 6: B.Shootas

Heavy
Big Guns x 3: Kannons


This game was a turkey shoot.

I went first, and on turn 1, killed both Battlewagons a Trukk and all of the Deffkoptas. By turn 2, the lootas were gone and the last trukk was dead. By turn three, the rest of his boys were stuck on my dreads and the game was wrapped up.

His dice were terrible. He made like 1 cover save on his vehicles.

Chris is a good dude though and took it in stride. When your dice crap out on you like that, what can you do? Had he gone first he would have had a chance, but losing all of your vehicles in your own deployment zone before they go anywhere is pretty crippling.

Massacre to me.

Reecius wrote:@Somnicide
Yeah, that mission was just bad. UNless it was two shooty or two assault armies playing each other it was a terrible match up. Some armies are not designed to go at one another.

But hey, it is what it is. I came to this event knowing it would be wonky and weird and just drank a lot of beer and laughed it up with friends. I didn't look at it as a tournament.

Yeah I may have to view it as that next year and go. It's not a tourney, it is a chance to hang out with friends and play wacky games.

I was way psyched to see that my friend Fred got best in Fantasy.

@Afrikan Blonde
Yeah it was pretty crappy. That mission was made for assault armies. They plop on the objectives turn 1 and it is over. My friend's Daemon army laughed. He deep struck onto them turn on and his opponent had to go at his bloodcrushers and great daemons! Hahaha, that is just not a good design.

@Striderx
Haha, what's up dude. I am going to name you captain positive! You always have something nice to say.

Well, my army is actually a GT winning army, so I think it is doing OK. Against BattleWagon spam, I can get side armor shots pretty easily with my mobility and my las cannons, melta guns and dreads which can punch from the front. I play these types of lists frequently and I have never lost to them before. But, I have never had to run towards them, either.

I have played Land Raider spam lists, too, and have not lost to hem either. Strength 8 can Immobilize an AV14 vehicle which is often as good as killing them.

Thanks for being a ray of sunshine like usual!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Somnicide

Yeah it was a good, fun weekend. Anytime I get to play 40K with friends is a good day for me, so I just laughed it off.

Game 4
Opponent: Doug's Blood Angels
Mission: Table Quarters. Most scoring units in a quarter claims it. Spearhead.

HQ
Mpehiston
The Sanguinor

Elite
Priest
Priest: J.Pack, M.Bombs

Troops
Assault Squad x 8: Meltagun, m.bomb, p.fist
Assault Squad x 5: Meltagun, Lazorback, p.weapon
Assault Squad x 5: Meltagun, Lazorback, P.fist
Assault Squad x 5: Meltagun, Lazorback, p.weapon

Fast
Baal: H.Bolter Sponsons
Baal: H.Bolter Sponsons

Heavy
Vindicator: S.Shield
Vindicator: S.Shield

So, a tough list but the table was so, so, so bad for him. There was almost no terrain on it and no LOS blocking terrain. It was like the perfect board for my army. Elevated firing positions in the back and clear lanes of fire across the board.

He had first turn and moved everything forward popping smoke. My first round of shooting was atrocious. Every shot was a 1 or 2 on the armor penetration table, I never even damaged one of his vehicles.

His next turn he moved in again and damaged some of my units which fire on the way. Luckily I shut down Mephsiton's wings with my Rune Priest.

Then my luck took a big turn and I just started popping vehicles left and right. By turn 4 there wasn't much left. His last hope was Mephiston and the Sanguinar who made it to my lines. Meph chopped a tank in half and the Sanguinar was in range to charge with a single wound left. In my turn my Rune Priest got out and.....Jawsed Meph. Ouch.

My opponent had enough at that point as he only had a few models left and we called it at the bottom of my turn. If there had been even a decent amount of terrain on the board he could have really gotten into me with that army, but he just had nowhere to hide.

He was a super cool dude though, and it was fun to play him.

Reecius wrote:
@Striderx
Haha, what's up dude. I am going to name you captain positive! You always have something nice to say.

You can't accept comments? I mean really if I know you can't, then I probably wouldn't have commented. To be honest, it was a comment targetted at the list, not you.

Reecius wrote:Well, my army is actually a GT winning army, so I think it is doing OK.

Which GT? I may have missed it.

Reecius wrote:Against BattleWagon spam, I can get side armor shots pretty easily with my mobility and my las cannons, melta guns and dreads which can punch from the front. I play these types of lists frequently and I have never lost to them before. But, I have never had to run towards them, either.

Meltas are useless against orks because by the time you are within range, the transports have already done their job. Aside from the speeders who can move 12 and fire, no one else can. 6 MLs, 4 hits, 2 pen/gls, 1 unsaved by KFF. That's barely enough. Of course, you have a couple of LCs shooting on the front and a bunch of MLs, but that's hardly reliable on Av14. On average, the statistics are not too bad, but problem is being purely shooty, you can't afford to roll below average in your first 2 turns shooting. Once that happens, you have nothing to tarpit against assault elements. That's what makes it less ideal.

The internet has spoken, Reecius. Your list sucks and all your wins are negated.

Somnicide wrote:The internet has spoken, Reecius. Your list sucks and all your wins are negated.

I m not sure why trouble makers like you prefer to stir flames instead of engaging in healthy discussions in the forum.
If you are not interested, you are free not to participate, isnt it?

Game 5
Jason's Wolves: Volker de Lupine
Mission: The game ends when one player gets half the other player's KPs plus 1. Nightfight turn 1.

HQ
Logan
Rune Priest: Chooser of the slain, l.lightening, murderous hurricane
Wolf Priest

Elites
Dreadnought: M.melta, Dread drop pod (FW model), wolf tooth necklace

Troops
Wolf Guard x 5: Termies, assorted assault weapons and a cyclone
Grey Hunters x 10: P.Fist, w.guard, p.fist, melta, rhino
Grey Hunters x 10: P.Fist, w.guard, p.fist, melta, c.melta, rhino
Blood Claws x 10: p.weapon, w.guard, p.fist, melta, c.melta

Heavy
Long Fangs x 6: m.launcher, l.cannon x 2, h.bolter x 2
LRC: M.Melta

So normally this list wouldn't scare me much, but Jason is a really good player. Also, since I wasn't taking this event too seriously and I knew I couldn't win coming into it, I came with 2, 12 packs of Sam Adams the second day! I gave a lot of them away but I must have drank 10-12 of them and by this game I was definitely starting to show the booze!

I got first turn and deployed forward to mitigate night fight. Jason then stole the initiative on me! The stupid dreadnought drop pod delivered his dread into my L.Fangs turn 1 and there was no way to stop it. For 50 points that model is so over the top

So anyway, a Fang squad was out of play immediately but that wasn't too bad. I was taking slow chunks out of his army and felt fine until the wheels came off the bus turn 4.

He had moved his Blood claws up in a LRC to flank me and I put out a bait squad to try and lure them out into the open. As this mission was built so weird (why not regular KPs?) I could trade KPs with him and come out on top as he needed to kill 10 of mine to win and I only needed 8 of his.

So, he took the bait and charged my grey hunters. They held and then I counter charged what was left of his squad with 3 fresh ones....and got rolled! Haha, I somehow lost combat despite outnumbering him nearly 3 to 1 and having charged with character support and every one of my unit's failed their morale check and then ran off the board. Wow, that went wrong!

So now instead of picking up 2 KPs I gave up 4! That pretty much sealed my fate. I also couldn't blow up a stupid Drop pod which with a melta gun in 4 turns of shooting! Hahaha. Just one of those days.

I was also making some dumb moves as I was trying to flirt with Wonder Woman while playing and drinking.

In the end though, I lost although neither of us got the primary objective, so it was a minor victory to Jason. Well played to him though as it was certainly a bad match-up.


So in the end, I got like 10th place or so out of 48 (my paint score came in really well as did my sports and I got a favorite opponent vote) so I did OK.

The funny thing about this tournament, Italiaplaya went 5-0 and only missed maxing out battle points by 1 point, and he finished in the bottom third of the field, way below me with two losses. WTF? That is bizarre to me. His army was beautiful but it had two unpainted models.

White925 won the event and Dave_Fay got second, both with Nurgle Chaos. So congrats to them! The player who got Best General went 5-0 with max battle points and a really nice, fully painted army, but didn't win the tournament. WHite925 went 4-1 and Dave_Fey went 4-0-1.

But then, that's the Broadside Bash for you. The guys who win their games don't win the event, just like last year. Strange way to score it but it is fun none-the-less. I got to hang out with a bunch of old buddies, play some 40K and make some new friends.

And Wonder Woman, if you happen to read this, hit me up!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Somnicide wrote:The internet has spoken, Reecius. Your list sucks and all your wins are negated.

Haha, right? The interwebs are more important than reality.

@Striderx
I am sorry if I seemed mean, but dude, every time you say something to me it is negative. Maybe it is a language or cultural barrier and I am just misunderstanding you, but it always seems like you are flaming me for no apparent reason.

If you think my list is bad, then that is fine. You are free to.

I have done really well with it though, in reality, and feel confident taking it against any army.

Reecius wrote:@Striderx
I am sorry if I seemed mean, but dude, every time you say something to me it is negative. Maybe it is a language or cultural barrier and I am just misunderstanding you, but it always seems like you are flaming me for no apparent reason.

If you think my list is bad, then that is fine. You are free to.

I have done really well with it though, in reality, and feel confident taking it against any army.

Erm, may I ask this :- Is it rude to tell an American that his list is below par or far from ideal? I mean do you guys have such a high ego? You seem to have that false impression that I m against you just because I criticised your list. I would have criticised that same list even if it was from someone else.
Note if I were to call you names and criticise your list, it would have been a different story. But what's up with getting worked up if someone else criticise your list? Is that a challenge to your intellectual capability? I guess not, right?

The great Reecius, distracted by Wonder Woman? Ha, can't blame you when I would get distracted even by the Invisible girl.

Too bad about game #1. When you're cold, you're cold. Ain't nothing tactics or skill can do about that. But if anything, game #4 was the equalizing factor. Bad mission for shooty army vs great board for shooty army.

@striderx:

To be fair to Reecius, his whole army is expendable. One of the strengths of an MSU-army like his is that every unit is sacrificial. Destroy his tank and next turn, take his retaliation. Destroy his 5-man squad and next turn, take his retaliation. That's why his squads are only 5-man. He wants you to be able to wipe them out in 1 phase so that he can shoot down your more expensive unit with his entire army. Basically, everything is an offensive unit and everything is a roadblock in his army. It is a very efficient army with a lot of redundancy and more often than not, it will do well. It's only downside, as with any MSU army, is that it is KP-heavy, but that is mitigated usually by its capability to wipe the opponent.

jy2 wrote:To be fair to Reecius, his whole army is expendable. One of the strengths of an MSU-army like his is that every unit is sacrificial. Destroy his tank and next turn, take his retaliation. Destroy his 5-man squad and next turn, take his retaliation. That's why his squads are only 5-man. He wants you to be able to wipe them out in 1 phase so that he can shoot down your more expensive unit with his entire army. Basically, everything is an offensive unit and everything is a roadblock in his army. It is a very efficient army with a lot of redundancy and more often than not, it will do well. It's only downside, as with any MSU army, is that it is KP-heavy, but that is mitigated usually by its capability to wipe the opponent.

Thx for the constructive comments - Somnicide you have alot to learn.

I concur with you on the merits of the list - MSU. But you brought up an important point - If the KP problem is mitigated usually by its capability to wipe the opponent, and it has been mentioned above that there was no way Reecius could wipe the ork opponent, doesn't that mean it is hardly possible for Reecius to win a battlewagon spam?

He has hardly any roadblocks actually. Rhinos/Razorbacks are terrible blockers against rollers. Skimmers are excellent choice, but that would have meant MLs on the front again. It would have been better if they were MM on the speeders.

@striderx

No worries dude, you can criticize my list all you want.

@jy2

You should have seen her, her shorts were really...short!

When she was walking around ever guy there was mesmerized, it was funny as hell.

Yeah, that first mission was pretty bad. And mission 4 was really bad for my opponent. Things like that shouldn't happen in a GT though, you know? People pay a lot of money to come and play and they deserve a fair shot at winning. Missions and tables like that make it really unfair for some armies which is not a good thing, IMO.

I would rather have "boring" missions and standardized tables that provide as equal a game as possible for both players.

I demand more pictures of Wonder Woman!!

I wish I had more to share =) She was a hottie and she was down with nerd culture. That is like, amazing.

Doug, my first opponent (who is a good buddy of mine) said he was gong to make a shirt that said "I tabled Reecius at my first GT!"

Hahaha, I have a feeling I will never live this down!

Sounds like a good time all around, I guess relocating to California won't be as painful as I may have anticipated!

Good effort on the tourney and almost turning around a rough start!

Have to agree on the missions and tables...sometimes you show up to a tournament...look at the packet and then look at the board and wonder to yourself..."Where did it all go wrong?" Then you ask if there is a satisfaction guarantee or something.

As to this business of your list...gotta say it seems rather solid and is something I wouldn't care to line up across the table against. One thing I was going to ask though was, have you ever considered fielding Typhoons with Multi-Meltas? I tried it out the other day and it put fear into the eyes of a battle wagon player in so many ways. Side shots with Missiles are scary enough; however, you start tossing in highly mobile Multi Meltas that will pounce at a moments notice and I feel its enough to give even good players reason for pause.

@Unholy_Martyr

Oh man, if you like tournament play 40K, California is a dream come true. In SoCal you can play in a tournament every weekend if you don't mind driving a bit. Plus, there are so many cool guys in the scene. NorCal is getting better, the crew we have working on organizing things is really pushing for more events and I have been able to hit a tournament at least every month.

I have not tried the M.Melta on the Typhoon, although I hear a lot of talk about it. I will have to try it out.

As you said, with BWs, I tend to just strafe out with Typhoons and Lazrobacks and take side shots, which has served me well. I keep my melta guns close to home as a last resort and assault with Grey Hunters and Dreads to go for broke on rear armor.

Typically, it never gets that close. I tend to destroy the BWs before they get too close (see game 3), but in this game I had to go at my opponent which was suicide.

I'll try the M/Melta addition. I like the h.bolter because it matches well with the frags and is still good against av10 and 11.

The tournament we are organizing up here in the bay (Bay Are Open, July 30th-31st) will have book missions and standardized tables to make sure there are no major miss-matches.

@striderx:

Just because the army has the potential to wipe a lot of opponents doesn't mean they can to all opponents, nor do they need to. Reecius' list definitely has the tools to handle battlewagon-orks.

The main weakness of BW-orks is that they need to keep together. Split up and they are much more vulnerable without the KFF saves. Against them, MSU armies would normally split their armies and force the ork player to either commit to one side or split up as well. Whichever he chooses, you'll going to get AV12 side shots.

It's just he had bad dice rolls. No matter how good the army or the skill of the general, like I've said before, when you're cold, you're cold. Ain't nothing you can really do about it.


@Reecius:

Mamacita! I think all tournaments should come with free brewskis and cosplay babes as referees. Damn, I'd go for sure!

Yeah, ideally all tournaments should be fair to all players, but in reality, they never are really. To add variety to their missions, TO's almost always make missions inherently advantageous to some armies while disadvantageous to others, and oftentimes to no fault of their own. For example, they may make a mission where there is 5 objectives but you only get kill points for troop choices. The typical MSU-list is going to get boned whereas a Deathwing haminator list is in heaven.

But there is no excuse for the poor terrain.

Reecius wrote:Typically, it never gets that close. I tend to destroy the BWs before they get too close (see game 3), but in this game I had to go at my opponent which was suicide.

Game 1 was 4 AV14 on the front, with KFF mek.
Game 3 was 2 AV14, 2 AV10, without KFF mek.

Worlds of difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jy2 wrote:@striderx:

Just because the army has the potential to wipe a lot of opponents doesn't mean they can to all opponents, nor do they need to. Reecius' list definitely has the tools to handle battlewagon-orks.

The main weakness of BW-orks is that they need to keep together. Split up and they are much more vulnerable without the KFF saves. Against them, MSU armies would normally split their armies and force the ork player to either commit to one side or split up as well. Whichever he chooses, you'll going to get AV12 side shots.

I can see your point here. But for a wagon spam list, you normally split up after 1 turn of movement. But by that time, you are already within charge range of almost everything, especially with Ghazzy. It doesn't matter already that you are getting side shots of my wagons the next turn. This is with the exception of faster enemies of course, like Eldar or DE.

jy2 wrote:It's just he had bad dice rolls. No matter how good the army or the skill of the general, like I've said before, when you're cold, you're cold. Ain't nothing you can really do about it.

I probably missed this. Was it elaborated anywhere about his dice rolls for game 1?

From what I read it was more of his opponents dice being red hot. Add in the fact that his opponent had first turn and you can just go ahead and write off many a lists. Even if here were to bring a sizeable "counter attack" unit as in Thunderwolves and the like, I believe he would have been almost worse off, they may have gotten a Wagon or two on the charge but then would have had to deal with being swamped by Boyz, tank shocked with Deff Rollas out the ass...it just would have been bad. I believe he's made it work rather well in the past, sometimes, your number is up and you just have to grit your teeth and accept it.

striderx wrote:

jy2 wrote:@striderx:

Just because the army has the potential to wipe a lot of opponents doesn't mean they can to all opponents, nor do they need to. Reecius' list definitely has the tools to handle battlewagon-orks.

The main weakness of BW-orks is that they need to keep together. Split up and they are much more vulnerable without the KFF saves. Against them, MSU armies would normally split their armies and force the ork player to either commit to one side or split up as well. Whichever he chooses, you'll going to get AV12 side shots.

I can see your point here. But for a wagon spam list, you normally split up after 1 turn of movement. But by that time, you are already within charge range of almost everything, especially with Ghazzy. It doesn't matter already that you are getting side shots of my wagons the next turn. This is with the exception of faster enemies of course, like Eldar or DE.

You may well be in charge range...but there is a huge difference in how you charge. There difference here is that if I immobilise/wreck your BW this turn, then next turn you are charging on foot and against my vehicles rather than ramming them with your deff-rollas and then disembarking and multi-charging my disembarked passengers and other nearby vehicles. It makes a world of difference as the consequences of those 2 charges are 1) the BW deff'rolla charge is much more devastating and 2) I can't shoot you if you manage to lock yourself in combat.

striderx wrote:

jy2 wrote:It's just he had bad dice rolls. No matter how good the army or the skill of the general, like I've said before, when you're cold, you're cold. Ain't nothing you can really do about it.

I probably missed this. Was it elaborated anywhere about his dice rolls for game 1?

My bad. Let me rephrase it:

It's just his opponent had unbelievable dice rolls. No matter how good the army or the skill of the general, like I saying for the first time in this thread, when you're hot, you're hot. Ain't nothing your opponent can really do about it.

Nice report, Reecius, thanks!

I, too, however, and disappointed with the single, tease of a pic of wonder woman. For shame, sir. For shame.

striderx wrote:

Somnicide wrote:The internet has spoken, Reecius. Your list sucks and all your wins are negated.

I m not sure why trouble makers like you prefer to stir flames instead of engaging in healthy discussions in the forum.
If you are not interested, you are free not to participate, isnt it?

striderx wrote:]Erm, may I ask this :- Is it rude to tell an American that his list is below par or far from ideal? I mean do you guys have such a high ego? You seem to have that false impression that I m against you just because I criticised your list. I would have criticised that same list even if it was from someone else.
Note if I were to call you names and criticise your list, it would have been a different story. But what's up with getting worked up if someone else criticise your list? Is that a challenge to your intellectual capability? I guess not, right?

I am fairly certain that in most countries, telling someone that their list is poor will not be well received as the beginning of a dialogue. This is part of why Stelek fails so badly in any venue where he does not control the feedback he gets. He almost always starts off rude, brusque, high-handed and dismissive (and usually stays that way too).

If you phrased your concerns about Reecius' list as questions rather than proclamations or judgments, you might find them received more warmly. Reecius might have been willing to explain to you more about how his list works and how he handles BWs as Jy2 has done.

Healthy discussions are important; but they don't usually start with "I don't like your list, here is a list of things wrong with it." Or "Your list is below par." Particularly if the person has had significant success using the list, especiallly winning at large tournaments, they are very likely to conclude that a) you have made your mind up already and aren't open to learning, and/or b) that you play in such a different culture and metagame that their explanation may be inapplicable to your play envionment.

Considering this was a beauty pagent more than a tourney what did your Wolves do after the talent section?

Nice BR's!

Kurb wrote:Considering this was a beauty pagent more than a tourney what did your Wolves do after the talent section?

Swimsuit, I think. Or was it evening gown?

Nice battle reports, Reecius! The scoring at that event seemed... interesting.

Mannahnin wrote:I am fairly certain that in most countries, telling someone that their list is poor will not be well received as the beginning of a dialogue.

Really? I don't think so. This is seriously a bias view of yours. I m actually fairly certain the comments which I have made on top would be easily accepted by most open minded people. For one, it wasn't even rude or personal. It was a statement of opinion on a particular subject. Every single sentence was directed on the merits (or demerits) of the list.

Mannahnin wrote:This is part of why Stelek fails so badly in any venue where he does not control the feedback he gets. He almost always starts off rude, brusque, high-handed and dismissive (and usually stays that way too).

If you phrased your concerns about Reecius' list as questions rather than proclamations or judgments, you might find them received more warmly. Reecius might have been willing to explain to you more about how his list works and how he handles BWs as Jy2 has done.

First, Stelek would swear and call names. I don't. It makes a world of difference.
Second, it's ironic that on one hand you encourage a warmer tone, on the other hand, Reecius response to my comments (which were less warm in your opinion but definitely unaggressive) was made in a sacarstic tone. Doesn't that go against whatever you have just advocated? If he felt offended, the least he could do was to throw back the question at me and ask why I think his list was weak. He didn't, but instead chose to act like a jerk.

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:I am fairly certain that in most countries, telling someone that their list is poor will not be well received as the beginning of a dialogue.

Really? I don't think so. This is seriously a bias view of yours. I m actually fairly certain the comments which I have made on top would be easily accepted by most open minded people. For one, it wasn't even rude or personal. It was a statement of opinion on a particular subject. Every single sentence was directed on the merits (or demerits) of the list.

striderx wrote:How do you think would have change your first game if the mission was something else? List wise, your list was merely a pure spam of MLs. You have absolutely no way to stop AV14, no countercharging units (TWC), and no traffic blocking capability.
Personally, I don't like the list you are taking.

Remember, there is no tone on the Internet. To me, your initial post seems dismissive, which does not encourage dialogue - at best, it encourages the sort of defensive posts that you got. Reecius has had significant success with the list; he posts battle reports for most of his large games.

Thanks for the reps, Reece!


One of these days you'll stop dodging me and we'll get a game in!!! I'll have to shoot up for the Open and win that 2k army!

It was a blast seeing you guys at the event - let us SD guys know the next time you're in the neighborhood. You guys planning on making the trek for the Slaughter?

jy2 wrote:You may well be in charge range...but there is a huge difference in how you charge. There difference here is that if I immobilise/wreck your BW this turn, then next turn you are charging on foot and against my vehicles rather than ramming them with your deff-rollas and then disembarking and multi-charging my disembarked passengers and other nearby vehicles. It makes a world of difference as the consequences of those 2 charges are 1) the BW deff'rolla charge is much more devastating and 2) I can't shoot you if you manage to lock yourself in combat

i concur with your view that the orks may be knocking on transports instead of bodies. But it does't matter because the SW list does not have the slightest CC ability. MSUs of GHs aren't going to do much to the horde of orks waiting at your doorstep. Couple that with the fact that this first wave of assault would have crippled like 1/3 or 1/2 of your shooting capability, I doubt you will be able to shoot down 4 wagons in your next shooting phase even on the side armour.
A shooty army needs to either 1) stay far and shooting long enough to cripple the opponent substantially before he reaches your lines, or 2) have a counter assault element to handle anything that finally reaches your line. That list have none of those.
That being said, I have no doubt that list would do well against a lot of list out in the current metagame, but it is list like the wagon spam that gives a hard counter to it.

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Janthkin wrote:Remember, there is no tone on the Internet. To me, your initial post seems dismissive, which does not encourage dialogue - at best, it encourages the sort of defensive posts that you got. Reecius has had significant success with the list; he posts battle reports for most of his large games.

Then ironically, how is it that you find my post to be dismissive ? Did you read the tone? If not, then was it the choice of words? If it is, then the words I used were all directed at the list/subject, isnt it? I would agree with you that I could have put in the effort to include more question marks in my sentences to encourage a dialogue, but I m fairly certain they don't deserve the kind of response from Reecius.

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:I am fairly certain that in most countries, telling someone that their list is poor will not be well received as the beginning of a dialogue.

Really? I don't think so. This is seriously a bias view of yours. I m actually fairly certain the comments which I have made on top would be easily accepted by most open minded people. For one, it wasn't even rude or personal. It was a statement of opinion on a particular subject. Every single sentence was directed on the merits (or demerits) of the list.

You wanted the word "biased", not "bias". Would you like me to ask a few people from other countries to weigh in? I will wager that you are mistaken.

I am explaining to you why you got the response you got. You told him his list was bad instead of asking how it deals with x, y, or z. When he knows very well that his list is not bad, that it wins in competitive venues against a wide variety of lists, and against good opposition, how do you expect him to react to your comment? He would be investing time and effort to do you the favor of disabusing you of your misapprehensions; but your post indicates that you are not open or receptive or inquisitive, so what's his incentive?

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:This is part of why Stelek fails so badly in any venue where he does not control the feedback he gets. He almost always starts off rude, brusque, high-handed and dismissive (and usually stays that way too).

If you phrased your concerns about Reecius' list as questions rather than proclamations or judgments, you might find them received more warmly. Reecius might have been willing to explain to you more about how his list works and how he handles BWs as Jy2 has done.

First, Stelek would swear and call names. I don't. It makes a world of difference.
Second, it's ironic that on one hand you encourage a warmer tone, on the other hand, Reecius response to my comments (which were less warm in your opinion but definitely unaggressive) was made in a sacarstic tone. Doesn't that go against whatever you have just advocated? If he felt offended, the least he could do was to throw back the question at me and ask why I think his list was weak. He didn't, but instead chose to act like a jerk.

The difference between what you did and what Stelek does was of degree, not of kind. Although I agree that not swearing or flaming definitely puts you several steps up. Reecius did not act like a jerk at all. He was polite and mildly ironic. He has identified you as someone who makes negative comments to him, and that has discouraged him from investing effort in responding to you. Somnicide did get a little sarcastic. Which is not friendly, but again, was a response to the way you chose to communicate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

striderx wrote:

jy2 wrote:You may well be in charge range...but there is a huge difference in how you charge. There difference here is that if I immobilise/wreck your BW this turn, then next turn you are charging on foot and against my vehicles rather than ramming them with your deff-rollas and then disembarking and multi-charging my disembarked passengers and other nearby vehicles. It makes a world of difference as the consequences of those 2 charges are 1) the BW deff'rolla charge is much more devastating and 2) I can't shoot you if you manage to lock yourself in combat

i concur with your view that the orks may be knocking on transports instead of bodies. But it does't matter because the SW list does not have the slightest CC ability. MSUs of GHs aren't going to do much to the horde of orks waiting at your doorstep. Couple that with the fact that this first wave of assault would have crippled like 1/3 or 1/2 of your shooting capability, I doubt you will be able to shoot down 4 wagons in your next shooting phase even on the side armour.
A shooty army needs to either 1) stay far and shooting long enough to cripple the opponent substantially before he reaches your lines, or 2) have a counter assault element to handle anything that finally reaches your line. That list have none of those.
That being said, I have no doubt that list would do well against a lot of list out in the current metagame, but it is list like the wagon spam that gives a hard counter to it.

I disagree entirely with your assessment.

1) As already pointed out to you, by deploying in separate areas of the battlefield, the MSU list can force the BWs to expose side armor. This, along with the mobile shooting of Typhoons and Razorbacks, allows at least some of the BWs to be stopped. In addition, if the units primarily tasked with this responsibility fail, Reecius can devote some missile launchers to the job as backup. Their odds are long, but if they get a Glance through they have a 50/50 shot (thanks to Open-Topped) of stopping a BW either permanently or for a turn (2, 4, 5 on the chart).

2) If a unit of 20 boys charges and busts open a SW transport, Reecius' list has multiple ways to kill them. First, since they are forced to bunch up in charging a vehicle and cannot Consolidate after killing it, Reecius' ML squads or Typhoons can Frag the crud out of the Boys. Second, two of Reecius' squads in question have flamers. A flamer can kill a substantial number of Orks when they are bunched up. 5 GH may not be enough to fight 20 boys, but may well be enough to kill 10 (average 3-4 dead Orks on the charge, 4 Slugga boys including Klaw Nob average about 2 dead GH in response, Orks test on a 5 or 6). And there may easily be another squad of 5 GH in another nearby transport able to join in. 10 GH shooting pistols (and possibly flamers) and charging are more than a match for 20 boys, without even needing to divert firepower which is needed elsewhere to deal with any surviving BWs.

4 BWs can only deliver (best case scenario for the Ork player) 4 assault units (and Ghazkull). Reece has a lot more than 4 units able to respond. He can also cofferdam and limit the damage of a dismounted Ork unit by doing things like having the aforementioned 5 man GH squad which was just busted out of their transport move UP 1" away from the Ork unit and spread out as far as possible to block the Orks' movement in the direction of his next unit, then just stand there and Rapidfire (and fire the flamer, if there is one). The Orks then, if distancing has been properly done, cannot reach the next unit in a single turn and are forced to spend their following turn assaulting an expendable 5 man unit. This approach can easily buy enough time for either the game to end or the Ork unit to be dealt with once firepower can be spared for it. I played Eldar with this philosophy for 5-odd years in 3rd and 4th edition- no serious counter-assault. Disposable shooting elements (and an assault element which went and hunted specific problem units and tore up the enemy backfield). If the opponent's assault elements are unable to do crippling damage to you, and he has enough points invested in them, you don't even need to kill all of them as you can delay them and win elsewhere on the table.

Ya reece your list is pretty bad. Not like your ranked in the top 10 of the U.S. or anything...


I think im going to write up battle reports of my games tomorrow. Seems like a good time to start haha.

Mannahnin wrote:You wanted the word "biased", not "bias". Would you like me to ask a few people from other countries to weigh in? I will wager that you are mistaken.

Go ahead.

Mannahnin wrote:I am explaining to you why you got the response you got. You told him his list was bad instead of asking how it deals with x, y, or z. When he knows very well that his list is not bad, that it wins in competitive venues against a wide variety of lists, and against good opposition, how do you expect him to react to your comment? He would be investing time and effort to do you the favor of disabusing you of your misapprehensions; but your post indicates that you are not open or receptive or inquisitive, so what's his incentive?

Explain how it wasn't. My first sentence already contains a question mark.

Mannahnin wrote:The difference between what you did and what Stelek does was of degree, not of kind.

Could you make yourself clearer? Which category are you referring to?

Mannahnin wrote:Although I agree that not swearing or flaming definitely puts you several steps up. Reecius did not act like a jerk at all. He was polite and mildly ironic.

Reecius wrote:I am sorry if I seemed mean, but dude, every time you say something to me it is negative. Maybe it is a language or cultural barrier and I am just misunderstanding you, but it always seems like you are flaming me for no apparent reason.

Maybe you are right, not a jerk. But he made an open false claim that I am always up to flame him. I m getting a bit curious what is his definition of FLAME?

Mannahnin wrote:Somnicide did get a little sarcastic. Which is not friendly, but again, was a response to the way you chose to communicate.

Well, yes. Somnicide was truely I don't like it when people call me names, so I probably know it's inappropriate of me to call other people names. And again, explain what you mean by "a response to the way you chose to communicate". My first post certainly doesn't display signs of being a jerk, did it?


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italiaplaya wrote:Ya reece your list is pretty bad. Not like your ranked in the top 10 of the U.S. or anything...

Well ranking means something, but not to a very large extent. Stelek has zero ranking (i m not a fan of him anyway), but beat a large number of celebrities at the NovaCon.

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote: Would you like me to ask a few people from other countries to weigh in? I will wager that you are mistaken.

Go ahead.

If it's worth their time they'll weigh in.

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:I am explaining to you why you got the response you got. You told him his list was bad instead of asking how it deals with x, y, or z. When he knows very well that his list is not bad, that it wins in competitive venues against a wide variety of lists, and against good opposition, how do you expect him to react to your comment? He would be investing time and effort to do you the favor of disabusing you of your misapprehensions; but your post indicates that you are not open or receptive or inquisitive, so what's his incentive?

Explain how it wasn't. My first sentence already contains a question mark.

Okay, let's look at your post:

striderx wrote:How do you think would have change your first game if the mission was something else? List wise, your list was merely a pure spam of MLs. You have absolutely no way to stop AV14, no countercharging units (TWC), and no traffic blocking capability.
Personally, I don't like the list you are taking.

Your only question was about the mission, not about the list. You then followed up with a list of deficiencies you (mistakenly) think his list has, and a negative judgment of it. That's not going to engender a positive or warm response from most people. It's just not. Sorry to break that to you.

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:The difference between what you did and what Stelek does was of degree, not of kind.

Could you make yourself clearer? Which category are you referring to?

Stelek comes into an army list discussion with his judgment already fixed, and his mind unchangeable. He issues proclamations and the most common questions he asks are rhetorical; he's not really looking for information because his mind's made up. Your first post indicated the same attitude.

striderx wrote:

italiaplaya wrote:Ya reece your list is pretty bad. Not like your ranked in the top 10 of the U.S. or anything...

Well ranking means something, but not to a very large extent. Stelek has zero ranking (i m not a fan of him anyway), but beat a large number of celebrities at the NovaCon.

Indeed? Which "celebrities" exactly?

striderx wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

italiaplaya wrote:Ya reece your list is pretty bad. Not like your ranked in the top 10 of the U.S. or anything...

Well ranking means something, but not to a very large extent. Stelek has zero ranking (i m not a fan of him anyway), but beat a large number of celebrities at the NovaCon.

Which has nothing to do with reece. Not his fauilt Stelek rather not show up on the ranking (in which case he would probably be very close by). Yes, ranking may not mean much to most people. But its the only ranking system we have at this point.

Mannahnin wrote:1) As already pointed out to you, by deploying in separate areas of the battlefield, the MSU list can force the BWs to expose side armor.

Not going to happen as pointed out, since I don't have to split on the 1st round of movement, just the 2nd round.

Mannahnin wrote:This, along with the mobile shooting of Typhoons and Razorbacks, allows at least some of the BWs to be stopped. In addition, if the units primarily tasked with this responsibility fail, Reecius can devote some missile launchers to the job as backup. Their odds are long, but if they get a Glance through they have a 50/50 shot (thanks to Open-Topped) of stopping a BW either permanently or for a turn (2, 4, 5 on the chart).

I m assuming you didnt mathhammer off the top of your head. 15 MLs, 10 hits, 1.666 gls, 0.8333 unsaved, then roll on the damage table. Players would almost always take Armor plates, so only 5 and 6s will cripple a wagon (a 4 will be reduced to 3 - 4+1-2 = 3). Add the 6 MLs from the speeders shooting at the side and LCs on the front, everything hardly adds up to 2 devastating hits.

Mannahnin wrote:2) If a unit of 20 boys charges and busts open a SW transport, Reecius' list has multiple ways to kill them. First, since they are forced to bunch up in charging a vehicle and cannot Consolidate after killing it, Reecius' ML squads or Typhoons can Frag the crud out of the Boys.

I don't think you can wall off 18 long fangs from the first wave of assault with that list. You may enlighten me otherwise.

Mannahnin wrote:Second, two of Reecius' squads in question have flamers. A flamer can kill a substantial number of Orks when they are bunched up. 5 GH may not be enough to fight 20 boys, but they may well be enough to kill 10. And there may easily be another squad of 5 GH in another nearby transport able to join in. 10 GH shooting pistols (and possibly flamers) and charging are more than a match for 20 boys, without even needing to divert firepower which is needed elsewhere to deal with any surviving BWs.

2 flamers? Ok, assuming you cover 10 for each, that's 10 dead orks, hardly ENOUGH, assuming you have just exposed all your troops for the next wave of assault. Either you concentrate your forces, assault, and wipe out one squad, or split your forces but definitely not wipe out both squads of 15 strong each.

Alll these being said, I haven't take into account chances of 1 or 2 razorbacks being pop by lootas, deffkoptas. I left them out of the equation totally.


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Mannahnin wrote:Your only question was about the mission, not about the list. You then followed up with a list of deficiencies you (mistakenly) think his list has, and a negative judgment of it. That's not going to engender a positive or warm response from most people. It's just not. Sorry to break that to you.

Why should a negative judgement elicit a negative response? To give you a clear illustration, if your boss openly criticises your work, would you choose to get him to explain why it was bad (even though you think you did an excellent job) or would you take it personally and ignore his comments? Or would you say you choose the former for authoritative reasons?

Mannahnin wrote:Stelek comes into an army list discussion with his judgment already fixed, and his mind unchangeable. He issues proclamations and the most common questions he asks are rhetorical; he's not really looking for information because his mind's made up. Your first post indicated the same attitude.

Except that I didn't. I started off with a question, then went on to explain why I didnt like the list. My first sentence in itself was inviting for counter arguments.

Mannahnin wrote:Indeed? Which "celebrities" exactly?

I don't have to think far. DOP has a ranking, doesn't he? Well, he did lost his game against Stelek. Well, you are going to argue SW is a much stronger codex, but DOP claims he has beaten many other SWs players around.

Wowzers, I go have some dinner and come back to a pretty big hubbub.

@StriderX

Well dude, if you did not mean to be rude then no worries, I misunderstood you and I apologize for offending you. Like I said, it's just that every time you comment to something I write, you seem to be combative and I just don't feel like engaging you in conversation as I feel that you are not actually trying to talk to me but disprove me in some way.

I am an old internet fart at this point and I don't have it in me to argue about something on the net that I know to be true in reality.

You have an opinion that my army is not good.

Fine.

You are free to hold that opinion. We can't really prove anything with words, playing the game is what counts. I have lost 1 game to Orks in a tournament with my wolves, ever. And that was it.

I played the third place Ard Boyz finisher from 2009 (when it was still a national tournament) in Ard Boyz last year with my Wolves. I was kicking the crap out of his Battle Wagon Orks and he managed to pull a tie on me with some miracle dice throws in the last turn.

But again, so what? I am sure you can think of a million counter arguments to try and "disprove" that actual event.

The bottom line is that playing the game counts for more than talking about the game. I play the game a lot, against a wide variety of very good players players and armies and I have had success with my wolves to the point where I feel confident in saying that I have better than good odds to beat any army with them in any mission. You take that how you want.

You seem like you are trying to prove you are smarter than everyone or something.

Let it go dude, we are all just guys talking about our favorite game on the internet. No need to turn it into a pissing contest.

@Italiaplaya

Haha, yeah, you should write a bat rep about how you went 5-0, and got all but one battle point, but finished in the bottom third of the field with a beautiful army...that was really weird.

@Warboss_Russ
I hope you can make it to our tournament! That would be awesome, and yeah, we need to get a game in. I think I fear the Greenskins now, though! I got my butt whipped so hard that I need to have a training montage for my next Ork game.

@Thread

Sorry I don't have more pics of Wonder Woman, she was a beauty. And nice, too.

And thanks for the support guys, I appreciate it. Hopefully we will see some of you all at the Bay Area Open this summer!

Reece, you're a good dude. Honestly, one of the biggest incentives for me to go to the NOVA Open this year is to meet and hang out with some of you West coast guys who post on here.

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:1) As already pointed out to you, by deploying in separate areas of the battlefield, the MSU list can force the BWs to expose side armor.

Not going to happen as pointed out, since I don't have to split on the 1st round of movement, just the 2nd round.

If they want to go after two firebases deployed in or near two different table corners, they need to split as soon as they decide they want to go after both corners. Even if they only go after one, some side armor is going to be exposed to one fire base or the other. That's starting on turn 1, unless the BWs deploy all together in a corner (which is generally not a useful strategy for the Ork player).

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:This, along with the mobile shooting of Typhoons and Razorbacks, allows at least some of the BWs to be stopped. In addition, if the units primarily tasked with this responsibility fail, Reecius can devote some missile launchers to the job as backup. Their odds are long, but if they get a Glance through they have a 50/50 shot (thanks to Open-Topped) of stopping a BW either permanently or for a turn (2, 4, 5 on the chart).

I m assuming you didnt mathhammer off the top of your head. 15 MLs, 10 hits, 1.666 gls, 0.8333 unsaved, then roll on the damage table. Players would almost always take Armor plates, so only 5 and 6s will cripple a wagon (a 4 will be reduced to 3 - 4+1-2 = 3). Add the 6 MLs from the speeders shooting at the side and LCs on the front, everything hardly adds up to 2 devastating hits.

Depending on the exact lists in question, and the mission, he probably only needs to stop 1-2 BWs in the first two turns. If only 2 BWs get to him, he certainly has the force necessary to kill the contents. Feel free to go through the Battle Reports on here from competitive Ork players and let me know what percentage of them take Armor Plates. I never see it.

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:2) If a unit of 20 boys charges and busts open a SW transport, Reecius' list has multiple ways to kill them. First, since they are forced to bunch up in charging a vehicle and cannot Consolidate after killing it, Reecius' ML squads or Typhoons can Frag the crud out of the Boys.

I don't think you can wall off 18 long fangs from the first wave of assault with that list. You may enlighten me otherwise.

You haven't yet deduced that the 18 Long Fangs aren't bunched up in one place? Jy2's posts didn't make it obvious to you that they're spread out, in different parts of the table? After a squad of Boys is out of their BW, they have considerably shorter threat range and more limited movement. An infantry unit can easily be walled off/stalled by another infantry unit, in the manner I described. 5 GH can make (essentially) a wall up to 13" long that an infantry unit can't move through in the movement phase.

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Second, two of Reecius' squads in question have flamers. A flamer can kill a substantial number of Orks when they are bunched up. 5 GH may not be enough to fight 20 boys, but they may well be enough to kill 10. And there may easily be another squad of 5 GH in another nearby transport able to join in. 10 GH shooting pistols (and possibly flamers) and charging are more than a match for 20 boys, without even needing to divert firepower which is needed elsewhere to deal with any surviving BWs.

2 flamers? Ok, assuming you cover 10 for each, that's 10 dead orks, hardly ENOUGH, assuming you have just exposed all your troops for the next wave of assault. Either you concentrate your forces, assault, and wipe out one squad, or split your forces but definitely not wipe out both squads of 15 strong each.

What? If 20 Boys charge and crump a Razor, covering 10 or more models with a flamer template is generally not going to be a problem. If 10 GHs charge 10 Boys, the Boys get slaughtered. ~ 6 dead before they even swing, then the Boys kill about 2 in return (mostly thanks to the klaw), and test at -4. What "next wave" exactly? If 1-2 battle wagons are stopped before they move or after one turn of movement, only a couple of units are across the table on turn 2, getting shot and assaulted on bottom of 2 or top of 3, and the Boyz stranded behind aren't in threat range yet as they're still footslogging. Reece's 20 GHs with two flamers and 3 Dreads with 2 heavy flamers are going to be more than sufficient to deal with 40 Boys at a time, and if some element of that has gotten killed or is out of position, he can throw in some Frag templates from elsewhere in his army to help out. If 4 BWs (or possibly 3, depending on the mission and situation) make it all the way across the table, sure, he's in trouble. But if only 1-2 do, and/or 1-2 squads of Boys at a time, he can certainly deal with that. And he's got the guns to stop half the battlewagons, unless his dice crap out or the Ork player gets extremely lucky on KFF saves early.

Yeah, when you play BW Orks the tactics are quite simple. You divide your forces from a central point and take the BWs out with side armor shots. You move laterally to your flanks forcing BWs to move away from KFF protection.

It is easy, really.

The LFs then carpet bomb the Orks that were inside the BWs out of existence.

Bjorn will single-handedly wipe out a mob of Orks. I have had him do it many, many times.

JotWW snipes Klaws out of Mobs, then the Dreads run in and Tarpit them for the rest of the game.

I use these tactics all the time against Orks, it is really not complex.

But again, words prove nothing. The fact is my list can, has and will defeat Orks...hahaha, it is just not going to happen when I have to run at the bloody Greenskins.


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@Kurb

ANd after the event? Haha, my Wolves went back to the salon to get waxed and primped for the next big pageant!

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Your only question was about the mission, not about the list. You then followed up with a list of deficiencies you (mistakenly) think his list has, and a negative judgment of it. That's not going to engender a positive or warm response from most people. It's just not. Sorry to break that to you.

Why should a negative judgement elicit a negative response? To give you a clear illustration, if your boss openly criticises your work, would you choose to get him to explain why it was bad (even though you think you did an excellent job) or would you take it personally and ignore his comments? Or would you say you choose the former for authoritative reasons?

Again, I ask what is the incentive? Are you his boss? If your boss gives you criticism about your work, you have good reasons to react to that and interact with him. He has influence in your life, work environment, and pay. If a random stranger comes up and tells you that you are bad at your job, when you know very well that you are good at your job, why bother arguing with him? Let him live his life in ignorance; his opinion counts for nought.

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Stelek comes into an army list discussion with his judgment already fixed, and his mind unchangeable. He issues proclamations and the most common questions he asks are rhetorical; he's not really looking for information because his mind's made up. Your first post indicated the same attitude.

Except that I didn't. I started off with a question, then went on to explain why I didnt like the list. My first sentence in itself was inviting for counter arguments.

Perhaps this is an issue with your English. It is your first language? It seems very good, but at this point I'm at a loss for how to explain the meaning of your words to you any better. I quoted your first post, and I broke it down for you. Let me try again: You asked him a single question about the mission, then made several declarative statements about his army. You came to multiple erroneous conclusions about his army, and you shared those conclusions and your negative judgement with Reecius in declarative fashion rather than asking him a question like "How do you stop 4 Battlewagons normally?" Not sure how I can make this any clearer. If you still don't understand, I recommend re-reading your post and re-reading the responses a few more times and contemplating it until it starts to make sense to you.

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Indeed? Which "celebrities" exactly?

I don't have to think far. DOP has a ranking, doesn't he? Well, he did lost his game against Stelek. Well, you are going to argue SW is a much stronger codex, but DOP claims he has beaten many other SWs players around.

I think you are taking this notion of "celebrities" (which MVBrandt and the guys involved meant entirely tongue-in-cheek) too seriously.

Anyway, I need to head to bed...

Reecius wrote:Well dude, if you did not mean to be rude then no worries, I misunderstood you and I apologize for offending you. Like I said, it's just that every time you comment to something I write, you seem to be combative and I just don't feel like engaging you in conversation as I feel that you are not actually trying to talk to me but disprove me in some way.

I would gladly accept that apology. But saying you are sorry, and then proceed with the following accusation :-

Reecius wrote:You seem like you are trying to prove you are smarter than everyone or something.

doesn't quite tell me you are apologetic.
So I am trying to prove I am smarter. How so? Because I make an attempt to explain myself and post lengthy comments here? If that the case, isnt Mannahnin doing the same thing?

Mannahnin wrote:If they want to go after two firebases deployed in or near two different table corners, they need to split as soon as they decide they want to go after both corners. Even if they only go after one, some side armor is going to be exposed to one fire base or the other. That's starting on turn 1, unless the BWs deploy all together in a corner (which is generally not a useful strategy for the Ork player).

You seem to be fixated on the fact that the deployment is going to be pitched battle. On a spearhead deployment, you don't have the luxury of deploying on opposite ends. On a pitched battle deployment, the ork player just have to elect one side where it will expose its side armour, and the other its AV14 front armour. Also by deploying that way, you expand your foot print and make yourself extremely vulnerable to 1st turn koptas assault, more so if you start 2nd.

Mannahnin wrote:Depending on the exact lists in question, and the mission, he probably only needs to stop 1-2 BWs in the first two turns. If only 2 BWs get to him, he certainly has the force necessary to kill the contents. Feel free to go through the Battle Reports on here from competitive Ork players and let me know what percentage of them take Armor Plates. I never see it.

My mathhammer in my previous post shows that with 6 MLs on the side, +EVERYTHING else he has on the front, it hardly adds up to 2 devastating hits, in fact not even 1.5.
I m quite surprised you doubt the existence of armour plates in a wagon list, because it pretty much is a no brainer upgrade in a mech assault. If you have just spent 100++ odd points on a AV14 transport plus 200+ odd points of assault contents, and the whole strategy of your army is to get into assault as soon as possible, you wouldn't want a D6 roll of 2 to spoil your day. Trust me, if there is an upgrade to stop immobolised result, people will take them as well. On a side note, do you play orks? - Just curious.
As for evidence, DOP 's ork list has armour plates upgrade. Click his Ard Boys battle report. I could probably dig out a few other examples, but it just means more of my time. But I suspect you will be happy with DOP as the example.

Mannahnin wrote:You haven't yet deduced that the 18 Long Fangs aren't bunched up in one place? Jy2's posts didn't make it obvious to you that they're spread out, in different parts of the table? After a squad of Boys is out of their BW, they have considerably shorter threat range and more limited movement. An infantry unit can easily be walled off/stalled by another infantry unit, in the manner I described. 5 GH can make (essentially) a wall up to 13" long that an infantry unit can't move through in the movement phase.

Ok, I didnt expect you to use GHs to wall off your long fangs, because that's suicide. But I m pretty confused now. You said after my 1st wave of assault, your GHs will disembarked and flame+assault my orks. Now you are saying your GHs will disembarked as sacrificial units to bubble wrap your Long Fangs against the 1st wave of assault? You can only choose to do ONE thing, you know that right?

Mannahnin wrote:What? If 20 Boys charge and crump a Razor, covering 10 or more models with a flamer template is generally not going to be a problem. If 10 GHs charge 10 Boys, the Boys get slaughtered. ~ 6 dead before they even swing, then the Boys kill about 2 in return (mostly thanks to the klaw), and test at -4. What "next wave" exactly?

By your description, you seem to be concentrating your forces onto 1 squad of 20. Then my question is - you are leaving yourself to be counter assaulted the next turn by the other squads of boys?

Mannahnin wrote:If 1-2 battle wagons are stopped before they move or after one turn of movement, only a couple of units are across the table on turn 2,

Would you kindly illustrate/mathhammer how you reliably stop 1 or 2 wagons with a single turn of shooting (lets assume the SW player starts 2nd)? You may be seeing something I don't see, but my mathhammer definitely told me otherwise.

Mannahnin wrote:Reece's 20 GHs with two flamers and 3 Dreads with 2 heavy flamers are going to be more than sufficient to deal with 40 Boys at a time,

Just curious, do you think these are even sufficient to deal with just a single Ghazghkull ??

Mannahnin wrote:If 4 BWs (or possibly 3, depending on the mission and situation) make it all the way across the table, sure, he's in trouble.

By your definition, he should be in trouble most of the time. Because no matter how I mathhammer it, if the ork player goes first, the likelier chances are 3 wagons will survive the onslaught and its contents be in charge range (reliably with the waaagh of Ghaz) by ork turn 2. Also, I exclude koptas, lootas, etc in my assessment.

Mathhammer is a guide, not an absolute. The game is played on the tabletop, not a computer. This thread shows me beyond a shadow of a doubt that Mannahnin is a Saint. Dakka would be a worse place without his infinite patience.

More Wonder Woman !!!!

DarthDiggler wrote:Mathhammer is a guide, not an absolute. The game is played on the tabletop, not a computer. This thread shows me beyond a shadow of a doubt that Mannahnin is a Saint. Dakka would be a worse place without his infinite patience.

+1

That mission beat you Reece. It was one of the ones I argued most strenuously against but I guess it made it in. Glad you got to drink and oggle Wonder Woman

Some fun and interesting reports. Glad you had a decent showing. Not surprised that the 5-0 didn't win. And I'm not surprised that a guy that actually lost a game won the event. I'm sure the Nurgle armies were very fluff tastic though we'd have to wait to see if they got their "hardcore" score.

Looking forward to drinking and gaming our way thru Adepticon buddy. At least it was good practice for that

Thanks for the battle report Reece! Always an interesting read!

Strider, it must be said, as someone who has no bias or interest either way, there's a world of difference between how I read your posts and I read Reecius's. All of yours seem to be some kind of anal attempt to score points off of everything the other person says. There's no jokes, there's no warmth, no orkmoticons. No casual dialogue, and whilst civility is retained, the tone it conveys is of someone indulging in some kind of pseudo-academic debate where you're treating everything the other chap says as a point which HAS to be rebutted. Reecius on the other hand, sounds more friendly, and like he's more about drinking beer, having a laugh, and ogling wonder-woman, then trying to win internet debates with someone who seems to be treating the whole discussion as 'srs business' to use internet slang.

That's the opinion of someone with nothing invested either way, who knows neither party, in a country other than America.

So lighten up man. We're having a discussion about toy soldiers. Inject some humour and friendliness into those posts of yours, and you'll find a world of difference in how people respond to you.

If someone tells you come off a certain way, instead of spending two pages arguing why you don't come off that way, and saying its all their perception, maybe consider that you do come off that way? And for a reason? From there, its only a short step to adjusting how you post slightly, and having a great time on Dakka as a result!

Reecius plays footdar for crying out loud! You can't believe anything he says, them pointy ears is tricksy. Hell, look how surprised he is to see Wonder Woman in the first place.

Something is amiss!

Invite her to Adepticon to be our mascot Reece! Your team will thank you

Hulksmash wrote:Invite her to Adepticon to be our mascot Reece! Your team will thank you

Stay tuned.......

Mannahnin is a saint with infinite patience. My new mantra when posting will try and be WWMP. The crusade to class up this joint is not in vain.

StriderX - if multiple people think you came across as rude, that probably means you came across as rude. Granted, I wasn't as polite as I should have been - sorry, too much hollywood makes one snarky. However, maybe next time a lot of people say (directly or indirectly) "hey you are being pretty rude" take a second rather than attacking everyone else. I know in the past I have been rightly called out for being snarky and the first instinct is to attack everyone else. Now I try and reread what I wrote and see if it could have been construed as uncool.

Apologies to Reecius for playing a part in derailing your thread.

I stopped reading this thread after staring at the Wonder Woman pic for about 20 minutes. Did Reece win with his crappy list?

Lol !! That was so funny!

I am seriously considering asking Wonder Woman if she'd like to come up and be a "Ring Girl" so to speak at our Bay Area Open tournament. She definitely injected a lot of fun into the event.

Mannahnin is pretty dang patient, I just started tuning stuff out! Haha. And thanks for coming to my defense buddy, you made all the points I would have and did it kindly.

And like Darth said, Mathahmmer is no absolute. The more I play the game competitively the more I come to realize that a game between two good players with good lists often comes down to just luck. Who gets that one lucky break they need, when they need it.

@Hulk

Yeah bro, count on it! We will be drinking and laughing at the Adepticon TT for sure. The championships I will be wearing big boy pants and coming out to try and win (with the same crappy list) but the TT is for fun. We'll try and win it for sure, but there are so many variables in that tournament there's no need to take it too seriously.

That missions and the last mission were the ones I argued against most strenuously, too. But, oh well.

The top guys did get the hardcore award. Charlie didn't, and would have won the tournament had he gotten it. It seemed really arbitrary. Like, how do you make a "fluffy" Nid list? Or IG? Aren't they ALL fluffy? Too subjective for my taste.


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@Somnicide

No worries man, it's no big deal. People can skim the bits they aren't interested in reading.

@Ozzy

Haha, no I sure didn't win, but I had fun and I think Wonder Woman was feeling me a little bit! So that counts as a win in my book!

Good battle report Reecius.

Your first opponent had a pretty a good list. IMO 2 of his Battle Wagons in the pics you posted are unconventional. They seem a bit wider, which increases their frontal arc. I've played in a tournament where an Ork player fielded 2 Forge World Ork Battle Fortress as Battle Wagons. I guess tournament organizers are pretty lenient about conversions.

Judging from the pics of your 4th match, it looks like your opponent didn't effectively protect his lazorbacks with his AV13 vehicles. Haha, jawing Meph! Well played!

It seems lady luck had her hand in many of your games.

+1 to wonder woman pic!

striderx is a no need to call anyone names. We can all tell.

Thanks for sharing Reecius!

Sabrx:

2 of the battlewagons are converted Land Raiders, that's why they look a bit wider. The Ork "battlefortress" from FW actually isn't all that much bigger then the new plastic battlewagon, it just has a different look.

@Sabrx
Thanks, man! Your reports definitely look cooler with all the great pictures, but I am in the habit of doing the reports quick and dirty. I just like to present the basic info to make them quick reads for people at work.

Yeah, round 4 he could have created walls with his armor, but I believe he was trying to maximize the distance covered to get to me quickly. It was spearhead and I deployed in my back corner to maximize the distance between us.

@Whitedragon

Yeah, you got it. The converted Land Raider is so much better as it is a wider front. Sort of modeling to advantage, but oh well. Not like it made a difference this time around! His KFF was on fire, nothing got through. I was shooting the crap out of them, but he saved every frickin shot but 2!

I couldn't take this thread, but I just wanted to chime in that I also think Somnicide is a jerk. The previous sentence is also an example of there being no tone on the internet.

@Reecius: Nice reports, makes me sad I didn't get to go to the BSB. I was really looking forward to getting completely annihilated in game two with Farsight Tau. Winning don't matter tournaments is the only time I get to play him!

@striderx - your dismissal of the list is noted. Get over it. You weren't asked for your input or opinion of the list, this is the battle report forum. You dismiss every point made by the list author or any defenders offhand. Just declare yourself right and move on, or get a friend to play your Orks and proxy up this list and play 10 games with it and see if you can win. Constant "if you do THIS then I do THIS and what about THIS and you only get 1.5 THIS" is making this whole discussion sound like when little kids argue about which transformer would win. You're talking to someone who has game experience beating Orks with their list, and saying that it isn't possible. Either you're missing something just talking/thinking about the list, or they're lying, or they only play terrible Ork players. Just pick one to believe and move on!

You said it!

I don't get how someone can think that their hypothetical theories somehow negate reality.

Oh well, who cares. He is absolutely entitled to his opinion and that is fine.

Are you gong to the SiS, Lambadomy? That is always a fun tournament and you need to get revenge on my IG with your Tau!

Re: "saint" business-

You guys are too kind. I was up late and in the mood for an internet debate. Plus I genuinely do like talking tactics online and trying to expand people's knowledge. Today the sun is shining, I had a good job interview, and I'm relaxing on Dakka. You can lead a horse to water and all that, but I don't feel like tugging the tether any more today. Time to go Moderate some stuff and/or read some more enjoyable fare. Thanks again for the report, Reece! Hope to see you at NOVA.

Congratz on the job interview! Finding a good job these days is hard.

I will be at NOVA and Adpeticon, so I am sure we will get to have a beer!

Thanks! I'll definitely see you at Adeption, then. NOVA isn't settled yet, but I'd like to do that too.

@Reecius:
I am probably going to the slaughter in space, but after playing some Tau test games recently to try to play them in the next Sprue Posse event, I think they're shelved until they get a new codex. I can win with them, but it's just not fun to play and can be so frustrating. Plus, I already got my revenge with hot Bjorn on Bjorn action!

@Mannahnin

See you there!

@Lambadomy

Haha, indeed you did! Your Bjorn-fu proved to be superior to mine!

@lambadomy please bring an army with very fragile and expensive models that I can break :-)

Hahahaha !!! Good one Som.

Stri"NAMECALLING IS A VIOLATION OF DAKKA RULES" said,
By your definition, he should be in trouble most of the time. Because no matter how I mathhammer it, if the ork player goes first, the likelier chances are 3 wagons will survive the onslaught and its contents be in charge range (reliably with the waaagh of Ghaz) by ork turn 2. Also, I exclude koptas, lootas, etc in my assessment.

He has Bjorn in his list the Orks will not be going first very often.

The first list had one kopta and no lootas. The second list had 12 lootas and 6 koptas, but only 2 battlewagons. Furthermore, neither list had Ghaz. Why not try applying your "constructive" nonflaming critiques to army's he actually played in a comp. heavy tournament.

Nice job fighting the Free Market Orks! (That's what I call them, anyway).

Good batreps.

DarthDiggler wrote:Mathhammer is a guide, not an absolute. The game is played on the tabletop, not a computer. This thread shows me beyond a shadow of a doubt that Mannahnin is a Saint. Dakka would be a worse place without his infinite patience.

Mathhammer is a guide, yes. But it is a basis upon which we make calculted risk. If what I have highlighted are just the AVERAGE, it simply means things are going to be bad more often than not. Funny, you guys know this fact (because it has been discussed countless times in the forum), but is now changing your stance suddenly.

Somnicide wrote:StriderX - if multiple people think you came across as rude, that probably means you came across as rude. Granted, I wasn't as polite as I should have been - sorry, too much hollywood makes one snarky. However, maybe next time a lot of people say (directly or indirectly) "hey you are being pretty rude" take a second rather than attacking everyone else. I know in the past I have been rightly called out for being snarky and the first instinct is to attack everyone else. Now I try and reread what I wrote and see if it could have been construed as uncool.

And you know that your post came off more as a jerk than mine did, right? Because more than 1 person said so too. If anything needs to be moderated, it would be your post first.

SabrX wrote:
striderx is a troll. We can all tell.

Thx for showing us how much of a jerk you are :-).
@Mannahnin, you are going to do your job, aren't you? I remember calling "trolls" is not allowed here I have been following the rules, didn't I?

lambadomy wrote:You dismiss every point made by the list author or any defenders offhand. Just declare yourself right and move on, or get a friend to play your Orks and proxy up this list and play 10 games with it and see if you can win. Constant "if you do THIS then I do THIS and what about THIS and you only get 1.5 THIS" is making this whole discussion sound like when little kids argue about which transformer would win. You're talking to someone who has game experience beating Orks with their list, and saying that it isn't possible. Either you're missing something just talking/thinking about the list, or they're lying, or they only play terrible Ork players. Just pick one to believe and move on!

Actually dismissed is not the correct word. I was telling Mannahnin his mathhammer might be wrong, and therefore assumption invalid. I gave him a chance to show me how he did his math (apparently he didnt, or wasn't able to), the same way he challenged my views. If anything I did was wrong, Mannahnin did the same thing.

ChainswordHeretic wrote:The first list had one kopta and no lootas. The second list had 12 lootas and 6 koptas, but only 2 battlewagons. Furthermore, neither list had Ghaz. Why not try applying your "constructive" nonflaming critiques to army's he actually played in a comp. heavy tournament.

Because these units are arguably more common and efficient in a ork mech assault list? In most assault list, you want to have something which can pop light transports/reduce mobility before you go in for the kill.
Your point on Ghaz is valid though, maybe Reecius haven't met a list that has both Lootas, and Ghaz, maybe he did. In any case, it just means that the threat is there, isnt it?

Bro.

Please give it up. You aren't contributing anything to the thread.

You think my lists sucks and Battle Wagon Orks will beat it most of the time.

Fine.

Everyone gets it.

Let's just drop it, this argument is pointless.

Reecius wrote:Bro.

Please give it up. You aren't contributing anything to the thread.

You think my lists sucks and Battle Wagon Orks will beat it most of the time.

Fine.

Everyone gets it.

Let's just drop it, this argument is pointless.

I ain't arguing for it anymore, since Mannahnin dropped it already. I m merely responding to comments.

Ketara wrote:Strider, it must be said, as someone who has no bias or interest either way, there's a world of difference between how I read your posts and I read Reecius's. All of yours seem to be some kind of anal attempt to score points off of everything the other person says. There's no jokes, there's no warmth, no orkmoticons. No casual dialogue, and whilst civility is retained, the tone it conveys is of someone indulging in some kind of pseudo-academic debate where you're treating everything the other chap says as a point which HAS to be rebutted. Reecius on the other hand, sounds more friendly, and like he's more about drinking beer, having a laugh, and ogling wonder-woman, then trying to win internet debates with someone who seems to be treating the whole discussion as 'srs business' to use internet slang.

Well thx. I actually felt better after seeing how many other comments here were moderated. It goes to show that I m not the worst jerk here . At least, I don't lower myself and resort to calling names.

striderx wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:StriderX - if multiple people think you came across as rude, that probably means you came across as rude. Granted, I wasn't as polite as I should have been - sorry, too much hollywood makes one snarky. However, maybe next time a lot of people say (directly or indirectly) "hey you are being pretty rude" take a second rather than attacking everyone else. I know in the past I have been rightly called out for being snarky and the first instinct is to attack everyone else. Now I try and reread what I wrote and see if it could have been construed as uncool.

And you know that your post came off more as a jerk than mine did, right? Because more than 1 person said so too. If anything needs to be moderated, it would be your post first.

I never wrote that. You quoted the wrong person.

It was Somnicide.
I edited that.

striderx wrote:Well thx. I actually felt better after seeing how many other comments here were moderated. It goes to show that I m not the worst jerk here . At least, I don't lower myself and resort to calling names.

Dude, you called like everyone in the thread a jerk!

You are welcome to join the conversation but just think about how your words and the way you write them will make people react.

But enough of that, the issue is dropped.

Lol, i dont get why hes still fighting his point. No one is on his side. But anyways good showing reece whether you lost or not. At least you still finished top 10.

Reecius wrote:Dude, you called like everyone in the thread a jerk!

Again, that's an accusation. Or, do you define EVERYONE differently from the standard definition
My comment was targetted at those who resorted to calling names.

Just to show you that by claiming I was calling everyone a jerk, you are giving an untrue and bias comment.

italiaplaya wrote:Lol, i dont get why hes still fighting his point. No one is on his side. But anyways good showing reece whether you lost or not. At least you still finished top 10.

What point? THat I wasn't a jerk because at least I didnt call names? Well, that was a fact, I don't need your support. Not like I m playing some children games.

Ketara, I ve shown some improvements, didnt I? Look at the emoticons

Mannahnin wrote:Striderx, when you go into a thread being rude to people and seemingly looking for an argument, and are the first person in the disagreement to start calling other people names, you lack the moral authority to start looking down on others.

Any further posts from you in this thread will be deleted as off topic. Please don't make any.

LOL, I wonder how is it that I started the calling of names first when my first post was a hit on the list.
Way to show your prejudice. I suspect your next excuse will be to ban me.

Whoa I just found a reason to use the ignore feature....
Diggin the bat reps Reecius... Shame they aren't as detialed as usuall but I can forgive that since there are some wonderwoman pics!!!

Okay, putting the moderator hat on again:

Striderx, when you go into a thread being rude to people and seemingly looking for an argument, and are the first person in the disagreement to start calling other people names, you lack the moral authority to start looking down on others.

Any further posts from you in this thread will be deleted as off topic. Please don't make any.

I know for a fact that Reece is a terrible player.

I mean really, He got tabled at the BSB.

He always just pays off his ork opponents.

Game 1 was the first time a player did not take his bribe.

Of course this opinion has nothing to do with the fact that he tabled me at a GT.

Thanks for the Bat reps.

I am very curious about the new location for the BSB. How were the facilities?

Im kind of a fan of wacky rules and having a tourney not always be about who brought the best meta lists with them. No offense but you guys wrote this tournament off like it wasent a real tourney, and thats not how the game is played. If everyone thought ard boyz was how everything should be it would kind of kill the whole "hobby" part and there would be alot of grey plastic armies everywhere. I am always grateful when a tournament dosent just write off army balance and painting as a footnote. Not that anyone here said that the tourney was junk or anything, but it seemed to be written off as practice or insignificant compared to all the other cookie cutter tourneys out there, instead of taken as a challenge to bring the hobby sides A game.

Anyway now that I have done my longwinded soapbox speach, a few questions. How does your wolves deal with the other top tier meta in other tourneys with more standard missions? Does say heavy mech guard give your list fits?

And one more question, how do black templars measure up as a shooty army now with their rules changes. It seems like 3 termie squads with 2 cyclones each are a good answer for longfang spam, but taking the elite spots you have no tarpit dreads with flamers to tie up assault. Do you feel theres a top tier shooty list in there? I love the paint scheme, and have had them for 8+ years but was thinking about adding some points to fill out my choices more. Mabye vindicators to replace dreads, or more cheap typhoons.

More Reece Coverage of the Bash at...

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2011/02/24/indy-gt-curcuit-broadside-bash-review-and-results/

Orock wrote:And one more question, how do black templars measure up as a shooty army now with their rules changes. It seems like 3 termie squads with 2 cyclones each are a good answer for longfang spam, but taking the elite spots you have no tarpit dreads with flamers to tie up assault. Do you feel theres a top tier shooty list in there? I love the paint scheme, and have had them for 8+ years but was thinking about adding some points to fill out my choices more. Mabye vindicators to replace dreads, or more cheap typhoons.

You're shootie terminators should be bought as terminator command squads for your characters, freeing up your elite slots.

Cool picture with Wonder woman, where are the battle reports?

whitedragon wrote:

Orock wrote:And one more question, how do black templars measure up as a shooty army now with their rules changes. It seems like 3 termie squads with 2 cyclones each are a good answer for longfang spam, but taking the elite spots you have no tarpit dreads with flamers to tie up assault. Do you feel theres a top tier shooty list in there? I love the paint scheme, and have had them for 8+ years but was thinking about adding some points to fill out my choices more. Mabye vindicators to replace dreads, or more cheap typhoons.

You're shootie terminators should be bought as terminator command squads for your characters, freeing up your elite slots.

Unfortunatley now that the emperors champ counts as an hq you can run solo if you want, he also takes up a hq spot, leaving only one elite choice freed up if you take a marshal or castelian. That only frees up one unit.

Orock wrote:

whitedragon wrote:

Orock wrote:And one more question, how do black templars measure up as a shooty army now with their rules changes. It seems like 3 termie squads with 2 cyclones each are a good answer for longfang spam, but taking the elite spots you have no tarpit dreads with flamers to tie up assault. Do you feel theres a top tier shooty list in there? I love the paint scheme, and have had them for 8+ years but was thinking about adding some points to fill out my choices more. Mabye vindicators to replace dreads, or more cheap typhoons.

You're shootie terminators should be bought as terminator command squads for your characters, freeing up your elite slots.

Unfortunatley now that the emperors champ counts as an hq you can run solo if you want, he also takes up a hq spot, leaving only one elite choice freed up if you take a marshal or castelian. That only frees up one unit.

Where does it say that about the champion? I just double checked GW faq and it says (emphasis mine) "Q. Can I field the Emperorʼs Champion as my one compulsory HQ choice and no other HQs in the army? (p31) A. Yes, even though he does not use up an HQ slot, he is still an HQ choice, and so he can fulfil the minimum HQ requirement."

@Orock:

I think the problem is that there are different types of wacky missions, and the vast majority of the ones I've seen are extremely unfair to entire codexes, not just certain types of armies. Or they put in a random element intended to make the mission interesting, but instead effectively decides half the games. It is definitely possible to write and test good, interesting, different missions. But the amount of time/effort/tweaking/playtesting required is pretty much never put into it, and it shows.

I have zero problem with tournaments that make painting and modeling worth as much or even more than battle points, especially if they have a good rubric where time and effort combined with decent artistic skills will get you close to max points. I don't like anything that penalizes players before the games have even started though, such as bonus points for signing up early, or submitting army lists, or for "themed" or "fluffy" armies. I had considered ditching my previous engagement to go to the BSB but once I found out I was being penalized because I hadn't made up my mind 3 weeks ahead of time, it made the decision not to play easy. And fluff and theme is completely subjective and has no place when you're handing out prizes, because anyone can make up a good theme for any army list, so if you don't give them the points it isn't because it isn't fluffy enough, it's because it isn't fluffy enough TO YOU, or because the army is "too good" and that is somehow the same as "not fluffy" automatically.

The BSB unfortunately has many elements that work together to make it less of a tournament and more of a hobby hang out. A few of the missions are quite unfair, there are relatively few points to be scored in battle, and there are too many points to be scored by non painting/modeling and playing (which is what the hobby really is now).

While I agree that missions that ask you to get to the opponents side hurt armies like gunline or parking lot lists, the chance of having to play them in a tournament is the only thing that keeps variety of armies coming. If you knew ahead of time every mission was killpoints, and there was 3 pieces of terrain per board, tournaments would be the shooty A lists spam. Does it suck to have to have 5 objectives on the board when your playing space wolves missile parking lot. A bit. But it sucks more when tournaments have 4 flavors of armies that show up with little variation too.

Orock wrote:While I agree that missions that ask you to get to the opponents side hurt armies like gunline or parking lot lists

I'd like to make a distinction here. While such missions may not play to the strengths of the archetypes you mention, they are far more difficult for armies without transports (some ork builds, all Tyranid builds).

Different example: at Da Grand Waaagh last year, round 5 forced you to start almost everything in real Reserves (DoW deployment options, but actual Reserves rules for everything that started off the table). 2 of the mission objectives then required you to get into your enemy's deployment zone. For those of us playing all-foot armies (I had Tyranids), it was an incredibly poor mission right from the outset.

the chance of having to play them in a tournament is the only thing that keeps variety of armies coming. If you knew ahead of time every mission was killpoints, and there was 3 pieces of terrain per board, tournaments would be the shooty A lists spam. Does it suck to have to have 5 objectives on the board when your playing space wolves missile parking lot. A bit. But it sucks more when tournaments have 4 flavors of armies that show up with little variation too.

The best thing tournament organizers can do to keep multiple army types competitive is to actually follow the 25% terrain rule, and make sure every table has significant LoS blocking terrain. You don't need funky missions; you just need to put down enough terrain that players are making meaningful choices about deploying fire-support elements, where to move up assault elements, and where they want to place objectives (keeping the first 2 in mind).

Reecius wrote:I wish I had more to share =) She was a hottie and she was down with nerd culture. That is like, amazing.

Doug, my first opponent (who is a good buddy of mine) said he was gong to make a shirt that said "I tabled Reecius at my first GT!"

Hahaha, I have a feeling I will never live this down!

The shirt is in the works my friend

I just have to say that it was a fun Tournament, but is was the people that made it fun. You are right about the missions. I won't get into them, it has all been said already.

Our game was pretty wild. My Boarding planks love Dreads. The Ork Gods were Truely with me too, but they seem to always be with me vs SWs. Warboss Led Foot has SWs #.

You will get your payback at the Tournament in July I'm sure... I'm only about 23% sure actualy and only 6% sure of that 23%. Sorry Orks aren't good at math.

@Orock

If you play book missions (as one option) then every mission wouldn't be kill points. Two of the three book missions are objective missions. I'm not saying that you should just run book missions, but I can't think of any tournament where every mission is just kill points.

As for three pieces of terrain, well, terrain is separate from missions and I agree that it can be a big problem at any kind of tournament. There's almost never enough, it wouldn't cover a quarter of the board for sure and almost none of it blocks line of sight to anything.

I think terrain in general is what keeps the shooty parking lot lists down. Kill points don't - a lot of those lists have way too many kill points compared to say an Ork army or Landraider or Terminator spam.

Anyway, I love mission variation. I just want them to be tested well beforehand and not have very bad ways that they can break. A couple examples from the past:

At the slaughter in space, there was a mission in which the primary objective was to get a unit next to two objectives right in front of your opponents deployment zone. if there were no enemy units within 6" of it, you blew up the objective and got the points. Against any army with scouts or a unit that moved 24", a Daemon army automatically lost if they didn't go first because they couldn't defend their objectives.

Another example would be the common "hold an objective for X turns" or "point per turn held" missions. Necrons and Tau, two already weak codexes, can almost never win this mission because their troops cannot sit on mid-board objectives for multiple turns.

Finally, when you get special rules that result in things like deployment zones that allow opponents to start too close, or force them to start too far away, you end up with missions unfair to either shooty or assault armies. The L shaped corner deployments are common and really are terrible for assault armies.

All of these things can be overcome - it is completely possible to create fair, balanced missions that are not book missions and encourage list variety. I think the adepticon missions this year are a good example of that. The problems really occur when one or two missions do nothing but punish certain army types or codexes. You have to be able to have a reasonable chance of winning every mission. If your army or codex is weak, well, ok, you don't have as good a chance as other people. But it shouldn't be a 5% chance of winning just because of the mission regardless of opponent.

Manimal wrote:I know for a fact that Reece is a terrible player.

I mean really, He got tabled at the BSB.

He always just pays off his ork opponents.

Game 1 was the first time a player did not take his bribe.

Of course this opinion has nothing to do with the fact that he tabled me at a GT.

Thanks for the Bat reps.

I am very curious about the new location for the BSB. How were the facilities?

Your dice beat you, Manimal! I had little to do with that!

@thread

Book missions are best, IMO, as they are the most fair to the most armies. Home made missions usually suck ass (IMO) and are nearly always way out of balance. They belong in campaigns, IMHO.

Reecius, it was awesome to see you and the guys at the tourney.

As far as the Broadside Bash goes, I don't know what was more distracting... Wonder Woman walking around or the two cases of beer you brought in on Sunday. : )

Good times!

@Wolflord Patrick

You too, bro! Always good to see the San Diego friends. And the beer helped to soothe my bruised ego after getting tabled by Dugg! Haha.

@Dugg

You better make me my t-shirt, too!

Any idea when the results for the BSB will be posted?

At the bottom there is a pic http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/349995.page

So other than the pairings sounds like an ok time.

In regards to the missions you can have good missions that aren't book standard. Most TO's just don't put in the time. Or are completely closed off to listening to people who have.

The guy who designed hardcore didn't play. The one SW player that did get the award seemed totally random, none of could see why he got it and no one else did.

Fixed it. Read the name wrong on the sheet