So, i've been searching around the site and it seems that normal warbiker mobz aren't really that popular unless the army is an all biker theme. Does a biker mob of 10 (9 + a nob) not make an effective strike force? Or are there just better and cheaper options?

Any thoughts?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/347713.page
Just, read. You'll get a lot of insight over this one

To summarise, most people don't use them for whatever reason. Don't ask DashOfPepper, he hates them But seriously, it's matter of opinion. I find them useful since I like the idea of having 4+ armour and 4+ cover which keeps them alive for a lot longer than your average boy. The assault 3 guns en masse are deadly and will take down quite a few marines given the chance to shoot, even with BS2. Then of course there's the PK nob leader you'll need. Str9 snipping really messes vehicles up.

Making use of a squad? I'd suggest big numbers, 10-12, and add a PK/BP nob leader. It'll help with their leadership issues and gives you that extra punch in CC, and gives you lotas dakka and wounds before the squad starts feeling.

Against other units? Well agian, debateable. There's warbuggies that would be hlaf the price and give you plenty of anti-tank if given twin-rokkits. THere's stormboys which, while not as fast, have more bodies and better counter to the leadership issue orks have. Then there's deffkoptas which it seems most people on here swear by. Giving hem a buzzsaw and twin-rokkits, usually flying solo, just to try and pop a tank or two.

They're pretty good for ork mobility and firepower - but their main weakness is their Leadership. Testing on a 7+, even with a bosspole re-roll is just not forgiving with a unit that falls back 3d6".

That said, if you take enough of them, and rely on a turbo-boost save and cover to minimize damage on the first turn, you can ensure second turn assaults, preceded by loads of dakka. Once you're in combat, you're less vulnerable because you've got a decent (4+) save on a toughness 5 frame. You're not going to kill deathstars with them, but you'll fare acceptable well or better against most units.

I'd playtest them and find the balance between too many (if you never charge because your dakka guns kill everything, leaving you exposed, that's too many) and too few (which would be where you're taking too many early Ld tests and running too often).

I am working on a bunch of bikes - I realize they are not a power unit - but they are cool & fast! Some things to like: toughness 5, twin-linked shooting, mobile cover-save.

I have run small units w/ PK Nob & a biker Boss. Sometimes they seem to be nothing more than ablative wounds to get the Boss across the table - but that can be pretty good! I have had a ball with them chasing Tau (who really are not very fast). I have also had them just die immediately to shooting, since they are few in number (like when a demon 'flamers' squad deepstrikes right next to them - byebye cover save!)

I have had good luck with a small (5-Ork) Nob Bike squad. Not too expensive and still very worrisome to my opponent. It either dies after absorbing all of their fire, or does some good crumping.

I am working on (building) a bike list (3 bike squads, Wazzdakka, plus a big Nob-bikers squad & warboss, buggies & lootas) but I am going to also try them as a 'wing' for my Battlewagon lists - those wagons can be so slow!

(I am glad someone started a bike thread - I was tired of weeding through that 'tactica' thread with all the chest-thumpin!)

gpfunk wrote:So, i've been searching around the site and it seems that normal warbiker mobz aren't really that popular unless the army is an all biker theme. Does a biker mob of 10 (9 + a nob) not make an effective strike force? Or are there just better and cheaper options?

Any thoughts?

There are a variety of answers to this, but let me focus on one dimension of your question:

Are there better and cheaper options to make an effective strike force with in the ork codex? Yes.

Dashofpepper wrote:There are a variety of answers to this, but let me focus on one dimension of your question:

Are there cheaper options to make an effective strike force with in the ork codex? Yes.

Fixed it for you

Seriously, matter of opinion. You say no to warbikers, while quite a few others say yes.

Do we need another thread for this?

No, but we all know of Dash's position so I don't think we should continue trying to show him otherwise

But yes. OP. Bikers can be good. Testing them out would help greatly - both small and large numbers. Always have a PK/BP nob leader and beware of leadership issues. You could take 2 mobs so if one goes you've got another to harrass the enemy.

I look at it like this. I use my Fast attack slots as anti-tank/transports and it seems to me most Ork players see it the same way. So leaving out stormboyz because they are a poor choice for this role (and before the flames start I love stormboyz but I don't use them in the same role) our choices are rokkit buggies, deffkoptas, and warbikes (warbikers as AT? yes!) hear me out

ok for 70 points you can get one Deffkopta with a TL Rokkit Launcha and a buzzsaw. Lots of poeple, including me, love this unit but an experienced opponent can limit it's abilities. They have a +4 armour save and 2 wounds but are base toughness 4. While they get a cover save if they turbo boost after that they are practically defenseless. On the charge they get 3 str 7 attacks. So bottem line is extremely fragile and kind of a suicide unit.

next we have the Rokkit Buggies for 105 points you can take 3 of these bad boyz. Pumping out 3 TL rokkits is really nice. They are an effective unit but they are easy to destroy and being AR 10 and open topped is a real punishment due to squadron rules. To keep them alive they need to ride under your KFF.

finally we have Warbikers for 115 points you can take a Nob with PK and Bosspole and two other bikers. For starters you get +4 armour save and the exhaust cloud rule which ALWAYS gives you a cover save. They can turboboost to claim a +3 cover save. They have a charge range of 18" which makes them perfect for using as Ork Guided Misslies that get 4 str 9 and 8 str 4 attack on REAR armour.

Each of these unit perform the same roles just in different ways. Pick your poison. I am working on my Evil Sunz army so Warbikes are going to fill my AT roles.

pretre wrote:Do we need another thread for this?

Sure as . Buts thats just my opinion.

As far as I can tell, its an opinion thing. Seems to me that the only reason that people don't take bikes is LD and price. If they have a warboss this would be negated, and for a speed freaks army it sort of seems in keeping to have a biker boss.

What I find interesting is that to give a nob a bike is 25 points. To give a boy one is 29.

For the sake of an intellectual discussion I'd like to know what is a more effective strike force unit for the price of a 9 biker boyz +1 nob biker that can match it in terms of speed, infantry krumpin, and tank bashing. Anyone?

9 warbikers with a nob biker who has a powerklaw and a bosspole: 290 points.

A battlewagon (with a deffrolla, and a big shoota): 115 points
20 Boyz with sluggas and choppas, a nob with a powerklaw and a bosspole - 160 points

275 points.

9 warbikers have a 3+ cover save turbo-boosting up the field, or 4+ cover saves if they don't.
Boyz in a battlewagon can't be shot at. And their wagon is probably supported by other wagons, one of which is providing a 4+ cover save to the boyz wagon....whereas those bikers are probably running up the field unsupported.

My 20 boyz and their deffrolla would be happy to meet your 10 warbikers. =D

Your battlewagon is too slow to catch my bikers. You can take 3 shots at me at range if you like, with an average expected result of killing .25 bikers/turn.

I don't need to spend extra points to protect my bikes. You have other battlewagons, and a mek, and that's more points that aren't impacting my bikers.

Not everything can be measured in head-to-head stats. If I'm running bikers, you're right, I'd be foolish to engage your battlewagon full of boyz. But in your very small and limited example, I've got the strategic initiative. I decide if and when I want to engage you. Unless, perhaps, you invest another 250 or so points (not bothering to look it up) in ghaz, In which case I just stay further away from you, because I know what his charge range is. You cannot bring your points to bear against me. The best you can do is take your mek and your battlewagon and your character and camp an objective.

Meanwhile, when we both face off against dark eldar, I've got a bunch of highly mobile heavy bolters and a built-in cover save, and you're stuck with the hunk of a burnt-out battlewagon and a bunch of boyz stuck in a crater.


Don't get me wrong. I like battlewagons and I like meks and I even played Ghaz once after I painted him. But this isn't as cut and dried as you're making it out to be.

Why don't Redbeard and DashofPepper have a game ? I ll be more than happy to play either of you if my Vassal didn't fail me. I ll probably get it sorted out
Till then, you 2 can issue a challenge to each other, either on board or Vassal.

Redbeard wrote:Your battlewagon is too slow to catch my bikers. You can take 3 shots at me at range if you like, with an average expected result of killing .25 bikers/turn.

12" + 2" disembark + 6" fleet + 6" assault = 26"
Maybe I m missing something, but why is it that you think he can't catch your bikers? The board is finitely 6 by 4, you can't turboboost 24" away infinitely.

No one fires the big shoota on the wagon...

My view is that it is an unfair comparison to put up warbikers against a battlewagon + its assault contents. It's like a scissors to a stone.

Well, the challenge was point for point, not like unit for like unit.

Redbeard, your bikers can stay away from my battlewagon for a grand total of about two turns before even a turbo-boost won't get you out of charge range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redbeard wrote:
Meanwhile, when we both face off against dark eldar, I've got a bunch of highly mobile heavy bolters and a built-in cover save, and you're stuck with the hunk of a burnt-out battlewagon and a bunch of boyz stuck in a crater.

When we both face off against Dark Eldar, I've got deffkoptas, warbuggies, and Lootas to deal with raiders far better than BS2 heavy bolters can. At the moment, I'm more likely to *BE* the Dark Eldar player though, and unless you have Lootas as well, you can bet army pink slips that the whole warbiker unit is dead on the first turn, without me having to turn to dark lances for help. =D Consider that a challenge.

Dashofpepper wrote:
When we both face off against Dark Eldar, I've got deffkoptas, warbuggies, and Lootas to deal with raiders far better than BS2 heavy bolters can.

Congrats. Oddly enough, I've got other stuff in my list too.

At the moment, I'm more likely to *BE* the Dark Eldar player though, and unless you have Lootas as well, you can bet army pink slips that the whole warbiker unit is dead on the first turn, without me having to turn to dark lances for help. =D Consider that a challenge.

Done. I accept your challenge, by the exact terms you stated above - I won't bring lootas. I will state now that my strategy will be to reserve my entire army. My warbikers will not be dead on the first turn, and if you want to play the rest of the game out on vassal, that's up to you. I'll pay for shipping, do you need my address?

At the moment, I'm more likely to *BE* the Dark Eldar player though, and unless you have Lootas as well, you can bet army pink slips that the whole warbiker unit is dead on the first turn, without me having to turn to dark lances for help. =D Consider that a challenge.

Done. I accept your challenge, by the exact terms you stated above - I won't bring lootas. I will state now that my strategy will be to reserve my entire army. My warbikers will not be dead on the first turn, and if you want to play the rest of the game out on vassal, that's up to you. I'll pay for shipping, do you need my address?

Wow. Win. Congrats on your new DE army, Redbeard.

Redbeard wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:
When we both face off against Dark Eldar, I've got deffkoptas, warbuggies, and Lootas to deal with raiders far better than BS2 heavy bolters can.

Congrats. Oddly enough, I've got other stuff in my list too.

At the moment, I'm more likely to *BE* the Dark Eldar player though, and unless you have Lootas as well, you can bet army pink slips that the whole warbiker unit is dead on the first turn, without me having to turn to dark lances for help. =D Consider that a challenge.

Done. I accept your challenge, by the exact terms you stated above - I won't bring lootas. I will state now that my strategy will be to reserve my entire army. My warbikers will not be dead on the first turn, and if you want to play the rest of the game out on vassal, that's up to you. I'll pay for shipping, do you need my address?

Unless the mission doesn't allow reserves.

*laughing* How about a better one - pink slips for our armies for the game win, and I'll spare you the humiliation of the game itself, and you can just send me your army?

Seriously though, I continue looking for someone to demonstrate warbikers as other than suckage to me without avail. You up to it?

Aww, Dash went back on his challenge. :(

Dashofpepper wrote:
*laughing* How about a better one - pink slips for our armies for the game win, and I'll spare you the humiliation of the game itself, and you can just send me your army?

Seriously though, I continue looking for someone to demonstrate warbikers as other than suckage to me without avail. You up to it?

You changing the terms of the challenge now? I don't think so.

You don't seem to get it, and that's why you lost your challenge. You only think straight ahead. Straight-ahead, warbikers aren't as good as some other options. But in looking at problems straight ahead, you fail to see your way around them, and so you miss the opportunities that units like warbikers create. You challenge me to a contest where you claim you'll destroy my unit on turn one, clearly neglecting the possibility that I'll reserve my force - and that just demonstrates that you're just fixated on the straight-ahead approach. And now you're trying to change the terms of your challenge?

How about no. I have nothing to gain in this. I like warbikers, that's enough for me. I don't need to engage in an internet dick-measuring contest with you, my ego isn't tied up in whether I can win at toy soldiers. You've already demonstrated to everyone reading this thread that not only are you full of hot air, blustering about and throwing down challenges, but that you're also the sort to reneger on your own challenge once it's shown that you cannot win it. Want to show that you're not just some internet tough guy? Have the balls to stick to your original challenge, even in the face of defeat. I'll happily lose that game to you, but I'll still win your wager. You threw down, now either stick to it, or run away with your tail between your legs.

Redbeard wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:
*laughing* How about a better one - pink slips for our armies for the game win, and I'll spare you the humiliation of the game itself, and you can just send me your army?

Seriously though, I continue looking for someone to demonstrate warbikers as other than suckage to me without avail. You up to it?

You changing the terms of the challenge now? I don't think so.

You don't seem to get it, and that's why you lost your challenge. You only think straight ahead. Straight-ahead, warbikers aren't as good as some other options. But in looking at problems straight ahead, you fail to see your way around them, and so you miss the opportunities that units like warbikers create. You challenge me to a contest where you claim you'll destroy my unit on turn one, clearly neglecting the possibility that I'll reserve my force - and that just demonstrates that you're just fixated on the straight-ahead approach. And now you're trying to change the terms of your challenge?

How about no. I have nothing to gain in this. I like warbikers, that's enough for me. I don't need to engage in an internet dick-measuring contest with you, my ego isn't tied up in whether I can win at toy soldiers. You've already demonstrated to everyone reading this thread that not only are you full of hot air, blustering about and throwing down challenges, but that you're also the sort to reneger on your own challenge once it's shown that you cannot win it. Want to show that you're not just some internet tough guy? Have the balls to stick to your original challenge, even in the face of defeat. I'll happily lose that game to you, but I'll still win your wager. You threw down, now either stick to it, or run away with your tail between your legs.

Redbeard, challenge stands, mission and deployment from 'Ard Boyz - the one where reserves are not allowed. Equal finangling done. The challenge is related to the subpar capabilities of the unit, not in your ability to be able to reserve them to protect them.

Dash, a unit's ability to take advantage of the Reserves rule or the amount by which being in Reserves hinders it (for example, in DoW) is clearly part of its strength or weakness as a unit. As Redbeard has aptly pointed out, one of Warbikers' advantages is that they make better use of Reserves than many other units do. Playing a mission without Reserves allowed would be outside the boundaries of "standard" tournament 40k.

Neutral arbiter suggestion:

Since Dash has lost the challenge claiming he will kill the Warbikers on turn 1 and reneged on his wager (which makes sense, as it was obviously not fully thought through and possibly insincere/hyperbole in the first place), I propose an altered challenge meeting the spirit of the original discussion.

1: A randomly-rolled normal 40k game, with Redbeard to employ at least one unit of Warbikers, and see who wins.

OR

2: A randomly-rolled normal 40k game, with Redbeard to employ an army including Wazdakka and multiple units of warbikes.

I suggest the following wagers, based on Dash's firm comments up to this point: Option 1 stakes would be $50. Option 2 stakes would be pink slip; ownership of the loser's army.

Don't think Redbeard is going to go for it from the text of his response. Junk waving and all. Don't blame him.

I don't care about stakes, and this isn't about junk waving - I just want someone to plop warbikers down in front of me and demonstrate to me that they aren't useless.

Telling me they aren't useless is useless, I need to *see* it.

Mannahnin, I'm really not interested in playing 40k for stakes. I do, however, know a good thing when I see one. Of course, when someone offers an easily winnable challenge, I'm happy to take advantage of it.

I'll happily play Dash if we're in the same place. I have no fear of losing. Staking money, or armies (especially as mine looks much nicer), on a game of dice isn't my thing though.

I think the point has been made. I concede that warbikes aren't the best unit in the ork codex for running straight at an opponent. And I don't think Dash looks at the universe from any other perspective than running straight at it.

Find a local player you respect and play a couple games with swapped armies? Find a vassal player you respect and have them try out warbikers?

Not sure why the onus is on us to cater to your need to *see* proof. We're on the interwebs here, in a discussion board. Most of the time discussions are held with words, because of that whole no physical presence thing.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redbeard wrote: And I don't think Dash looks at the universe from any other perspective than running straight at it.

He pretty much confirmed that in the other thread. Charge and table. Objective missions are just KP missions, etc.

I wonder what would happen at a tournament that only grants solid victories instead of massacres for tabling. Or only grants you the objectives you earned at the end of the game instead of max points.

pretre wrote:Find a local player you respect and play a couple games with swapped armies? Find a vassal player you respect and have them try out warbikers?

Not sure why the onus is on us to cater to your need to *see* proof. We're on the interwebs here, in a discussion board. Most of the time discussions are held with words, because of that whole no physical presence thing.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redbeard wrote: And I don't think Dash looks at the universe from any other perspective than running straight at it.

He pretty much confirmed that in the other thread. Charge and table. Objective missions are just KP missions, etc.

I wonder what would happen at a tournament that only grants solid victories instead of massacres for tabling. Or only grants you the objectives you earned at the end of the game instead of max points.

Pretre, I've played against warbikers on occassion, even against a GT winner fielding warbikers. I was not impressed. More of the same won't do much - it needs someone who genuinely believes in their capabilities. Vassal is an easy way to fix the "physical presence thing." The only thing Vassal can't do is provide accurate 3D modeling of buildings, something that can be solved with pre-game discussion and labeling of terrain.

By and large, I am a one-dimensional player. Kill the army across the table. While I take great joy in this approach, I see plenty of missions where tabling is not a massacre, you still need to hold multiple objectives. This past weekend I played in a tournament where objectives moved 2d6 every player turn (even to scattering off the field), and another mission where only a single model in your army (one of your HQ choices) was capable of generating killpoints for you. I assure you, I'm quite versatile on adapting to different mission requirements, and read them very carefully before every game.

Kinda like this:

1. Read Mission.
2. Will killing the enemy army help me accomplish the mission? If yes, proceed to step 3. If no, proceed to step 4.
3. Go nuts, and kill enemy army.
4. Go nuts, and kill enemy army. On turn 4, re-read mission to see what steps are required to achieve victory.

The game where objectives moved 2d6 every turn, I won by 4 objectives to one. It was a strange ending because my opponent conceded on turn four, and concessions usually mean a full point, full victory point, full everything win but he didn't want to treat it that way - but we were on the top table and the tournament was already mine, so I didn't fuss.

But yeah - I much prefer the one-dimensional approach. *edit* In fact, when I'm looking at armies on display before a tournament, I'm thinking, "This is how I'd kill this army." On my way to a tournament, I'm mentally steeling myself to destroy and maim my competition mercilessly. I'm friendly across the table, but in my head I'm role-playing the horrendous death and torture of each model opposing me.

Oh well, back to Bikers.

Anyone have an interesting deployment method that they have used. How about some success stories... What are some units that they do well against?

Dashofpepper wrote:
Pretre, I've played against warbikers on occassion, even against a GT winner fielding warbikers. I was not impressed. More of the same won't do much - it needs someone who genuinely believes in their capabilities.

So not only do we need to find you an opponent to play, but we have to find one who's heart is pure and is dedicated to the notion that warbikers are good. C'mon man. You're stacking on the steaming stuff here. If their belief isn't genuine and they lose, does that make it less of a good test?

Vassal is an easy way to fix the "physical presence thing." The only thing Vassal can't do is provide accurate 3D modeling of buildings, something that can be solved with pre-game discussion and labeling of terrain.

I've never played Vassal and it doesn't appeal to me for the same reason I always try to bring painted minis to a game and that I don't just use slips of paper for my proxies at home. I like the visual aspect of the game. I have played plenty of computer games and they are not 40k. Vassal is also not 40k for the same reason. It has no physical element. As great a simulation as it is, it still lacks there.

By and large, I am a one-dimensional player.

We noticed.

I don't know that it is endearing, especially having to hear it over and over again. I get that you are Ghaz reborn in a human body, brought from on high to do Gork and Mork's will upon us poor lowly humans, with our feeble understanding of Tacktiks and 40k. I just don't need to hear it every time you write something. It's already in your sig. I can go there if I need to.

Well that was absolutely crazy reading all of that. Heated to say the least. Interesting though.

Obviously warbikes don't work for a straight forward player. I suppose that would make sense as they are really more about fast movement and flanking...outriders and all that jazz. Id like to see a battle report between red beard and dash.

No gak though. No having to use warbikers, or any other unit. Just try hard pants versus try hard pants.

Course, thats just me, for the sake of interest in the hobby.

Lost Boyz wrote:Oh well, back to Bikers.

Anyone have an interesting deployment method that they have used. How about some success stories... What are some units that they do well against?

That's sort of my point - they don't do well against much. They don't have the strength to overwhelm assault units, the initiative to strike before anything, or the sheer volume of attacks that other methods of delivering orks has. They have guns, but if you want shooty orks either Lootas or shoota boyz are a better and cheaper means of delivering overwhelming firepower. =p

Dashofpepper wrote:
That's sort of my point - they don't do well against much. They don't have the strength to overwhelm assault units, the initiative to strike before anything, or the sheer volume of attacks that other methods of delivering orks has. They have guns, but if you want shooty orks either Lootas or shoota boyz are a better and cheaper means of delivering overwhelming firepower. =p

Ignoring nobs for the time being...

Firing on MEQs:

200 points of shoota boys is 33.33 boyz. That's 66.66 shots at a maximum threat range of 24". Of those shots, 22.22 are expected to hit, and you'll score 11.11 wounds, or 3.7 dead after saves.
200 points of warbikers is 8 bikers. That's 24 shots with a threat-range of 30". Of those shots, 13.33 would be expected to hit, yielding 8.88 wounds, 2.96 after saves.
200 points of lootas is 13.33. That's an average of 26.66 shots with a threat range of 48". Of those shots, 8.88 would be expected to hit, yielding 7.4 wounds, 2.46 after saves.

It seems to me that, against the most common infantry targets, that warbikes are a perfectly acceptable choice, coming in right in between the two units you cite as able to deliver overwhelming firepower. Obviously there are other considerations. Lootas have better range and pop transports. Shoota boys might spend for rokkits. Warbikers can out-maneuver either of these units though. Lootas are at risk to backfield-threat options, and are unable to move&shoot to get better shots when necessary. Shoota boyz can be unwieldy to move where you need them.

Firing on GEQ:
200 points of shoota boys is 33.33 boyz. That's 66.66 shots at a maximum threat range of 24". Of those shots, 22.22 are expected to hit, and you'll score 11.11 wounds, or 7.4 dead after saves.
200 points of lootas is 13.33. That's an average of 26.66 shots with a threat range of 48". Of those shots, 8.88 would be expected to hit, yielding 7.4 wounds, 7.4 after saves.
200 points of warbikers is 8 bikers. That's 24 shots with a threat-range of 30". Of those shots, 13.33 would be expected to hit, yielding 8.88 wounds, 8.88 after saves.

Warbikers are better at shooting against less armoured targets (in the open) than either of these other two units. What's more, they're maneuverable enough that you can often avoid the source of the cover, ensuring that these hits count. (Not always - sometimes they sit in area terrain).

Firing at vehicles:
Without rokkit upgrades, shoota boyz have little game against vehicles. With three rokkits, they expect .16 glances and .66 pens versus AV10, .16 glances and .5 pens against AV11, and so on.
The warbiker unit has 13.33 hits to work with, and expects 2.22 glances and 2.22 pens versus AV10, 2.22 glances versus AV11.
The lootas, with their 8.88 hits, expect 1.48 glances and 4.44 pens versus AV10, 1.48 glances and 2.96 pens versus AV11, and so on.

Lootas are clearly the best choice for light anti-vehicle duty - I don't think anyone doubts that. But warbikes are certainly capable of tackling AV10, and with their mobility, they can get those side shots on chimeras when necessary.

As a shooty unit, I think they stack up fairly well, point-for-point with shoota boyz, and even with lootas when fighting against models with saves. They're not designed for anti-vehicle shooting, but can go after light vehicles when necessary.

Redbeard wrote:
snip
It seems to me that, against the most common infantry targets, that warbikes are a perfectly acceptable choice, coming in right in between the two units you cite as able to deliver overwhelming firepower. Obviously there are other considerations. Lootas have better range and pop transports. Shoota boys might spend for rokkits. Warbikers can out-maneuver either of these units though. Lootas are at risk to backfield-threat options, and are unable to move&shoot to get better shots when necessary. Shoota boyz can be unwieldy to move where you need them.

snip

Warbikers are better at shooting against less armoured targets (in the open) than either of these other two units. What's more, they're maneuverable enough that you can often avoid the source of the cover, ensuring that these hits count. (Not always - sometimes they sit in area terrain).

snip

Lootas are clearly the best choice for light anti-vehicle duty - I don't think anyone doubts that. But warbikes are certainly capable of tackling AV10, and with their mobility, they can get those side shots on chimeras when necessary.

As a shooty unit, I think they stack up fairly well, point-for-point with shoota boyz, and even with lootas when fighting against models with saves. They're not designed for anti-vehicle shooting, but can go after light vehicles when necessary.

Nicely done. I think we would have to cover assault threat range too, something that Warbikers are better at. They can move out, shoot a fair bit and then assault at a great threat range, something that the other two can't. Also, Warbikers can be effective on their own in DoW (which has been mentioned previously) and can be more survivable with turbo-boosting.

Warbikers shoot the bejezus out of Genestealers, Wyches, and other High-Init targets which can deal a lot of wounds to Boyz before the boyz get to swing. And while they have a significant pricetag, they don't compete for slots with Lootas or Shoota boyz.

I have been torn apart by them before but also shot them down like dogs. They aren't a terrible unit, but they ares greater than most. Use sparingly.

Dashofpepper wrote:9 warbikers with a nob biker who has a powerklaw and a bosspole: 290 points.

A battlewagon (with a deffrolla, and a big shoota): 115 points
20 Boyz with sluggas and choppas, a nob with a powerklaw and a bosspole - 160 points

275 points.

9 warbikers have a 3+ cover save turbo-boosting up the field, or 4+ cover saves if they don't.
Boyz in a battlewagon can't be shot at. And their wagon is probably supported by other wagons, one of which is providing a 4+ cover save to the boyz wagon....whereas those bikers are probably running up the field unsupported.

My 20 boyz and their deffrolla would be happy to meet your 10 warbikers. =D

One lascannon shot that pens ruins that 20boyz battle wagon's day. One lascannon shot does not on the warbikes.

Yes that battlewagon can be supported. But your assumption is that the warbikes is not is flawed. It could or could not be supported, which is generally a point in warbikes favor. Who's to say that they arent running along side a battle wagon or two?

Y

The reason that I want to run a warbiker list at Adepticon, aside from that I haven't run one since 3rd ed, and I've got a ton of warbikes that I converted... is that I see more deployment tricks going on.

Dark Eldar are fast, but crunchy if you can get them first. I don't have to engage with warbikers, and I can shoot down their ships with my guns as well as their troops.

Guard - I can side-shoot their chimeras, and avoid their alpha-strikes by reserving

Nids - I think the nid builds that work will involve stealers, hoppies and other things i'd rather shoot than assault.

Blood Angels/DoA - they come down, and I need to be able to react. Also, if they land before I arrive, I can go to a different point on the table and try to gain local superiority.

Daemons - same deal. If I can reserve up and see where he's going, I take away some of his game. I have guns that can mess up fiends and I can avoid crushers until I've whittled them down some.

Space Wolves - again, if reserve, I can avoid alpha-strikes from shooty wolves, and try and take advantage of a 3+ save the turn I show up. My guns aren't horrible against thunderwolves, and ignore expensive stormshields.


My tentative list is something like:
HQ: Wazdakka
HQ: warboss w/ powerklaw, bike, cybork
Elite: snikrot+ 9 boyz + 2 burnas
Troops: varied nob bikers. 6 I think
Troops: 7 warbikes + pk/bosspole nob
Troops: 8 warbikes + pk/bosspole nob
Troops: 20 sluggas, 2 rokkits, nob w/ pk/bosspole
Fast: 2 rokkit buggies
Heavy: Battlewagon: armour plates, plank, rolla, grot, kannon&big shoota

I've got no static elements at all. Everyone is moving.
I don't really playtest. I don't care that much. I haven't even finished painting my bikes, let alone run them. But, in my head, this seems like a solid approach. If it doesn't work, at least I looked good dying. I've already done kans, battlewagons and green-tide orks. I have more fun doing new things, even losing, than I do by winning games using the same rote strategies game after game.

Mannahnin wrote:Warbikers shoot the bejezus out of Genestealers, Wyches, and other High-Init targets which can deal a lot of wounds to Boyz before the boyz get to swing. And while they have a significant pricetag, they don't compete for slots with Lootas or Shoota boyz.

Thats one of their bigger attractions. Moble gunplatforms that dont compete for the highly contested elite slots, and their not bad in combat- because in general their mobile enough to pick their targets. They do have down sides. LD being one of them.

Redbeard wrote:I have more fun doing new things, even losing, than I do by winning games using the same rote strategies game after game.

Yay! This. I love lists and games where you mess with your opponents deployment / plan by doing something entirely different / unexpected.

Side Note:
I wish that you could buy a reserve enhancing power for KoS armies. That'd be a pretty cool shtick, if Biker Orks got to enhance reserve rolls or even an alternate deployment type where they roll on first turn (like DoW).

I think the LD issue is overblown when you consider the Bosspole. A re-rolled Ld8 test is what, 7.8% chance of failure? That's basically the same as being Ld10.

Redbeard- I don't immediately see any flaws in your reasoning. Sounds good to me. Can't wait to see how you do!

I think that part of the problem of the discussion here, is not in the units or their ability to kill, but rather in the way that tournaments are scored.

1) Most tournaments use a Major/minor victory system.

2) To win a tournament, you generally need to get maximum points in all of your games.

3) the easiest way to get maximum points is to table your opponent, regardless of the mission type.

I think that is why the "top tier lists" are generally list designed to table the opponent rather than simply win the game.


Ork Boys, when compared to Warbikers, even the shoota ones are better at tabling someone because of how decisive the assault phase can be. It is easier to destroy entire units (sweeping advance/routing vs. morale checks in the shooting phase and cover saves) and it is the ONLY phase where one unit can deal damage to multiple enemy units.

Warbikers offer a different kind of mobility than the BW boys. Their mobility can not be destroyed until the entire unit is gone. Turbo-boosting to objectives is a great way to contest them on the last turn, or even take them if you have Wazdakka.


Are Warbikers the "best"? Well that is no, but they do have some advantages over regular boys that may cater to a player's personal style better. It is not like it has the same stats as an Ork boy, but cost 9 pts and cannot score. We have seen that they have some shooting ability combined with a good amount of movement and the potential to score. They are Decent. They have a use on the battlefield, but they cost a few too many points for them to make the cut in a tournament list.

@Dash.

I think that you look at units only in terms of their utility in tournaments, which for you means tabling someone. I think that there is a big difference between a tournament and a "regular" game. I do know however that it is your mission to try and offer what you feel is the best advice to people on this forum, but I think you should realize that your advice is colored by your experiences with the game. Your Style of play, Your Meta-game, Your battle experiences.

The Ork Codex has been around long enough for everyone to know what the "best tournament lists" are. They are Kanwall and BW rush. Everyone probably knows that you should only ever take Kans or BW for Heavy, Koptas or Buggies for Fast, and Nobs, Commandos or Burnas for Elite, and the rest of the units are not as competitive as these.

I do not think that is needs to be your mission to make sure that everyone leaves DakkaDakka with a tournament capable list. Just say that Warbikers are not as good as some other options and leave it at that. In the end, this is a forum, a place for people to share their opinions. You opinion already carries more weight than most due to your Tournament record and Battle Reports, and you don't need to challenge people to prove it.; You already have.

svendrex wrote:

@Dash.

Just say that Warbikers are not as good as some other options and leave it at that.

I agree with everything else you said....and this is how I started out. Then folks started defending warbikers like no tomorrow. =p

I'll voice my opinion and come down squarely on the side of warbikers are good. HOWEVER, they are good like any most other units in any other codex: Within a list that is built to support them and whatever shortfalls that unit may have (lets just pretend that certain units don't exist, like the deathstrike, ethereals, pariahs etc.). Sticking warbikers in a list that isn't supporting them will quickly garner poor opinions and quick dismissal. As a small unit they act in a much more supportive role, focusing on units around their size. Take 3 bikers +nob with pk and bosspole: they can tackle combat squads (from opened transports or objective sitters), long fangs, weakened (non cc) mcs and combined charges into more full units of tactical squads or moderate CC troops such as assault squads.

At 140 points it's cheap enough to take several of while including the support you need in the rest of the list to open transports. At 1500 its easy to fit in 4 with wazzdakka + some other cheap troop like grots and build a very well rounded list from there as well. At 2000 you can go all the way to 6 like stelek did in his most recent ork list or you can pull it back a little to 5 and have a different kind of support element to the army. I don't find that orks scale well above 2000 and I'm not sure of an effective way to make them at this time with the models I have. (Personal experience/observation) It seems like most ork lists at 2500 rely on a few things that can just be wiped out in one turn of slightly below average dice rolling.

As I've been practicing with my warbiker lists I've been finding that they require a lot more finesse to use than your typical ork unit and if you're not able to take full advantage of their mobility you're really hampering the use of them. Now, there are some bad matchups for warbiker heavy armies, and I don't mean auto-lose, I just mean it will be a struggle. High volume moderately strong (str6+) firepower is a problem (or masses of poison shots), as a 4+ on smallish units doesn't go as far as one would hope generally. Also to be more clear when I say masses I mean 8+ units able to hurt you from turn 1, but it will generally come down to the table you're playing on to determine whether or not you'll be able to weather the fire as you close the distance while popping enough transports or have other target saturation that those weapons would equally like to shoot at.

@Dash: I've got another warbiker list to play against you. You were right, ultimately the list was subpar, but like you I need experience with something before I'll write it off and warbikers are still far from written off in my book. I've found through playing a wide variety of different armies that warbikers have to be used differently than your typical ork list. You are correct that they were not particularly strong in the way I was using them and I've been refining my list as I go.

While I may not be confident enough in my playing ability to put my money where my mouth is I'll happily play you on Vassal again in an attempt to showcase that warbikers are not a bad unit. (Actually I may be able to play you IRL some point as well as my fiance has family near Shreveport that she wants to visit this year). Especially now that I've had a chance to get used to what warbikers are capable of and what they aren't.

The thing is that they're just a boyz mob with better firepower. For my boyz mobs I take a nob with a PK if i wanna blow up some tanks. But not so much for asaulting infantry ( unless they are ridiculously armoured. So it really depends on what you want to do with them.

Dashofpepper wrote:

I agree with everything else you said....and this is how I started out. Then folks started defending warbikers like no tomorrow. =p

I understand, It is very easy for these things to spiral out of control, especially as it is very hard to communicate things tone using only text.

TNM wrote:The thing is that they're just a boyz mob with better firepower. For my boyz mobs I take a nob with a PK if i wanna blow up some tanks. But not so much for assaulting infantry ( unless they are ridiculously armored. So it really depends on what you want to do with them.

And MUCH better mobility, self generating cover, and are t5(4). Assaulting to kill tanks is also a very bad way to use boys or nobs with PKs.

Redbeard wrote:Space Wolves - again, if reserve, I can avoid alpha-strikes from shooty wolves, and try and take advantage of a 3+ save the turn I show up. My guns aren't horrible against thunderwolves, and ignore expensive stormshields.

Except that if you can shoot at them, you are within charge range for the next assault.

striderx wrote:Except that if you can shoot at them, you are within charge range for the next assault.

18" range on the dakkaguns.

Any infantry unit not mounted in a transport can move 6", up to 6" for a run, and then can only charge if they have the fleet rule. That is hardly an 18" assault range. If they are mounted in a transport, i'd more than likely surround the damn thing so that the unit inside couldn't get out while my nob ripped it open with a PK. And is that still a rule that if passengers cant disembark from a destroyed vehicle that they are automatically killed?

If were talking about thunderwolf cavalry, well you were outmatched to begin with...in that case its just better to shoot at them or avoid them to mitigate casualties.

I think the thunderwolves will kill at least one squad, but you can ensure that it's not more than that because you can place them so that they limit the wolves movement.

In the first round of shooting, you would try to put all your guns on them (from all three bike units), leaving the smallest bike unit as close to the wolves as you can, and stringing them out in a line. With each bike being as long as it is, if you turn them sideways, you create a line that the wolves cannot run through. They'll charge that unit of bikes, but not the rest.

So, in the first round of shooting, versus T5/3+, you're probably putting 6 or 7 wounds on them between all your bikes shooting. Then you lose the 8 bikes, maybe doing a wound with the nob on the way out. Then you shoot them again, this time charging in with the nobs to clear out any survivors.

Of course, if the wolf player has gone all-in on wolf lords, then the deathstar is even scarier, but that's a lot of points in one unit that doesn't move all that fast unless it is given something to charge. In that case, I think the best course of action is to try and kill his troops and avoid the cav, maybe throwing them something sacrificial to draw them away from where you want the real fight to take place.

gpfunk wrote:Any infantry unit not mounted in a transport can move 6", up to 6" for a run, and then can only charge if they have the fleet rule. That is hardly an 18" assault range.

My comments was on the shooting of TWC. TWC are calvary, and can charge up to 12", and have fleet, you know that right?

striderx wrote:

gpfunk wrote:Any infantry unit not mounted in a transport can move 6", up to 6" for a run, and then can only charge if they have the fleet rule. That is hardly an 18" assault range.

My comments was on the shooting of TWC. TWC are calvary, and can charge up to 12", and have fleet, you know that right?

The second half of that post was in reference to the TWC, about being outmatched anyway. But you did read the whole thing, right?

Redbeard wrote:They're pretty good for ork mobility and firepower - but their main weakness is their Leadership. Testing on a 7+, even with a bosspole re-roll is just not forgiving with a unit that falls back 3d6".

What about putting a warboss in the unit? That would up their LD to 9.

For 125 points that gives you an extra 5 PK attacks on the charge. If you used the warboss instead of Nob with bosspole and PK, that would save you 65 points (bike + nob + PK + bosspole).
That would put 11 bikes + the warboss at 400 points. 12 bikes with the nob would be 340 points. For those 60 points you get an IC with 3 wounds T5(6) and an extra PK attack.

(Note -- the biggest concern at that point is that ~400 points is a serious point sink. At what point is it worth it to move to nobs on bikes)

labmouse42 wrote:

Redbeard wrote:They're pretty good for ork mobility and firepower - but their main weakness is their Leadership. Testing on a 7+, even with a bosspole re-roll is just not forgiving with a unit that falls back 3d6".

What about putting a warboss in the unit? That would up their LD to 9.

For 125 points that gives you an extra 5 PK attacks on the charge. If you used the warboss instead of Nob with bosspole and PK, that would save you 65 points (bike + nob + PK + bosspole).
That would put 11 bikes + the warboss at 400 points. 12 bikes with the nob would be 340 points. For those 60 points you get an IC with 3 wounds T5(6) and an extra PK attack.

(Note -- the biggest concern at that point is that ~400 points is a serious point sink. At what point is it worth it to move to nobs on bikes)

It's a rather big drawback which I guess is why Dash doesn't recommend them mostly. I'd rather have a squad of 9 bikers with biker nob- that comes to 265pts so not as bad. Still lots of bodies to chuck about and lots of dakka, just not as big a points sink as it can easily be.

I've used two squads 6 bikers with nob leader, then again I do play a rather "dummed down" version of 40k (missing out most of the rules, but our group's building up to them). So okay my experiences are a tad flawed but hey units of 6 don't get noticed til I hit the enemy lines, which is neat.

The unit of 2 Warbiker and a Nob with a powerklaw and bosspole, will be referred to as 2:1 Biker Klaw in this post because that is a long name for a unit.

I firmly believe that increasing the amount of warbikers in a warbikers unit is not cost effective. The most effective I have seen warbikers have been as a cheap harass unit in place of buggies to hunt vehicles (think fast moving powerklaw)... The reason why I saw them was because the guy had no buggies and was already running a unit of deff koptas...

It was sorta effective because he could hide it behind battle wagons and trukks, as well as fling them out of reserve and be in the fight that turn or so, but I stand to say that rokkit buggies are better because their are more things you can do with them, such as block off TWC by moving 12" in front of them. This limits the TWC ability to hit what they want to (Your Nobz, your scoring unit on the last turn), and in HTH they need a 6s to hit instead of a 3+ to 4+.

Shooting at the blockading buggies is also harder then shooting at the blockading bikes. Heavy bolters require a 5 to glance and a 6 to punch, followed by a 3+ (Punch)/ 5+ (glance) to wreck while only a 4+ to wound the bikers. The 4+ cover save benefits both bike and buggy.

With this in mind, the buggies are surprisingly difficult to destroy as you can continue to allocate further dice to a shaken or weapon destroyed buggy.

Offensively:
2:1 Biker Klaw: Has 9 TL-Big Shoota shots, that on average result in 5 hits... In addition, the 2:1 Biker Klaw is toughness 5 and can tie up devastator like units, unfortunately the deffkopta already does this for the same amount of points and wounds (2 koptas, 2 TL- Rokkits, 1 Buzz Saw) and is much faster (turn 1 charge). In exchange for this speed trade off, the 2:1 Biker Klaw has a +2 to its strength and an extra attack.

Now if taken as troops, this presents some interesting tactical options. Mainly extra 2:1 Biker Klaw taken from the troop allowance instead of the fast attack allowing for 3-6 buggies and 1-2 teams of deff koptas, while allowing the ork player to reserve a fast moving scoring unit. However the problem with this lies in this also takes up a valuable HQ choice. This would mean that the other HQ choice would be a KFF mek as the list that supports bikes the best is a battlewagon list as it gives them a place to hide. Another problem, touched on earlier was the survivability, mainly it gives up a kill point.

It could be said that the buzz kopta team does the same but 9/10 times it trades a kill point for a kill point or pays for itself in robbing the opponent of their mobility/firepower. The 2:1 Biker Klaw has little garuntee with its, relative to the deff kopta's scout turbo boost, lack of speed that complete its objective of killing vehicles.

And QuietOrkmi takes up the voice of wisdom after Dash has long since pulled out. Go get em Quiet! I'm actually hoping that there's a wave of "Warbikers are cool!" that happens, and that it displays itself at tournaments that I'm at, preferably against me.

As a new player, I honestly had no real concept of the utility of a warbuggy squadron. Hearing that explained so well was actually quite enlightening.

I recently purchased a battle wagon, and have two trukks still on the sprue so i'm sure with a little gerry-rigging I could make some buggies from that.

Thank you all for the spirited argument.

gpfunk wrote:As a new player, I honestly had no real concept of the utility of a warbuggy squadron. Hearing that explained so well was actually quite enlightening.

I recently purchased a battle wagon, and have two trukks still on the sprue so i'm sure with a little gerry-rigging I could make some buggies from that.

Thank you all for the spirited argument.

Hi! Preface that I'm soddered of my lid on tequila at the moment, so if this doens't make sense I apoloize.

And sufff.

Buggies are fantastic for screening those battlewagons that you purchased from assaults. The rokkits are nice, the real utility is in having a unit that can screen you against alpha strikes in case you don't go first. If you check out my signature where I make an equally excpetional effot to stay drunk during my games, you can see how I write battle reports about how my warguggies interact with my army. I don't realyly now what I'syaging anymore.

Using cheap fast moving vehicles as movement and assault blockers and screens is something you see a lot from good competitive players, but is generally overlooked by most newer or more casual players.

"Sigh"

I'll stick with me warbikers regardless and hope someone else like Redbeard sees some more practical sense out of them.

*bails thread*

gpfunk wrote:

striderx wrote:

gpfunk wrote:Any infantry unit not mounted in a transport can move 6", up to 6" for a run, and then can only charge if they have the fleet rule. That is hardly an 18" assault range.

My comments was on the shooting of TWC. TWC are calvary, and can charge up to 12", and have fleet, you know that right?

The second half of that post was in reference to the TWC, about being outmatched anyway. But you did read the whole thing, right?

Well, then the 2nd part don't make much sense to me, because be it avoiding them to mitigate casualties or shooting them and then dying, both are bad ways to throw away the game.
But since you mentioned that you are a new player, then well...

striderx wrote:

gpfunk wrote:

striderx wrote:

gpfunk wrote:Any infantry unit not mounted in a transport can move 6", up to 6" for a run, and then can only charge if they have the fleet rule. That is hardly an 18" assault range.

My comments was on the shooting of TWC. TWC are calvary, and can charge up to 12", and have fleet, you know that right?

The second half of that post was in reference to the TWC, about being outmatched anyway. But you did read the whole thing, right?

Well, then the 2nd part don't make much sense to me, because be it avoiding them to mitigate casualties or shooting them and then dying, both are bad ways to throw away the game.
But since you mentioned that you are a new player, then well...

Neither does a bit of your grammar. But hey, whos keeping score?

I don't think that side stepping units is a way to throw away the game per se. Bikes have very good mobility and can generally choose when they engage the enemy. By choosing to have a weaker unit avoid a stronger one doesn't seem like a way to lose a game.

Throwing away points on a fight you can't win does.

Consider all the other units in the ork codex that could do damage to TWC, i'm sure a seasoned ork player has more than one in his army that could deal with them. Best to let them handle it, and get your bikes to other fodder that they can actually kill.

I don't think that side stepping units is a way to throw away the game per se. Bikes have very good mobility and can generally choose when they engage the enemy. By choosing to have a weaker unit avoid a stronger one doesn't seem like a way to lose a game.

The only problem is that you spent a lot of points on a unit that can only handle units vastly weaker then it... The main question on my mind would then be, if you were to go past the 2:1 Biker klaw for hunting things that do not fight back (Vehicles) and things that are not very good in HTH but excellent in shooting (devestators), What would be the ideal target? The problem with increasing the size of the warbiker unit is that its main target never really changes from when their was 2 of them and a Nob with a powerklaw to when there is 11 of them and a Nob with a powerklaw. In fact, it could be argued that they are less effective because of the larger footprint, the difficulty in hiding 12 bikes to the difficulty of hiding 3 of them. Sure there would be more wounds to soak up incoming fire but you have more incoming fire because units can draw line of sight to them, then their is still the morale problem...

From the Ork codex, the vest way I could think to destroy TWC would be to shoot it with lootas or burnas from a battlewagon if they all had 3++ saves on top of their 3+ saves. Remember Shoota daoppa and Choppa the Shoota!

The battlewagon moved 6" so needs 4+ to hit and the flamers are bound to hit 3 TWC models resulting in about 30+ S4 hits, against the T5, this is about 10 wounds... Even if they were complexed, a unit of 5 takes 2 wounds on every model. Statiscally 1/9 of them will fail both their 3+ saves while 4/9 of them suffer 1 wound. Even if their is 5 of them, that is .555 of them dead, 2.222 with one wound left and 2.222 unharmed... Our greatest strength is not punching terminator armor but reminding the terminator that exist by having them roll 15 dice.

I have to say, whilst this arguing (er discussion) seems pointless to vets, for us people returning to the game or newer players it is very helpful. I read dash's tactica and had pretty much written off warbikers (as well as warbuggies, they seemed too brittle to me), now however i think that bikes can be far more useful than i had considered.The same remains true of warbuggies. Thanx to you all

I now expect every forum argument to be prefaced with "in the interests of all new players it is important to point out"

Bikes in large units are bad. Minimum size squad can do what none of the other Fast attack choice can. Because have a +4 cover save no matter how fast they move and they can turbo boost for a +3 up cover save they don't need to stay with within range of the KFF. They can push a flank on your opponent leaving your opponent some bad choices to make, either divert some fire into the bikers or keep trying to stop your Wagon/Trukk Rush. It's a win/win either way. They preform the same role as a Deffkopta with a buzzsaw but have a bit more durability from shooting because of the coversave and the bosspole when you do lose a model or two.

Bullockist wrote:I have to say, whilst this arguing (er discussion) seems pointless to vets, for us people returning to the game or newer players it is very helpful. I read dash's tactica and had pretty much written off warbikers (as well as warbuggies, they seemed too brittle to me), now however i think that bikes can be far more useful than i had considered.The same remains true of warbuggies. Thanx to you all

I now expect every forum argument to be prefaced with "in the interests of all new players it is important to point out"

I haven't written a tactica.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Bullockist wrote:I have to say, whilst this arguing (er discussion) seems pointless to vets, for us people returning to the game or newer players it is very helpful. I read dash's tactica and had pretty much written off warbikers (as well as warbuggies, they seemed too brittle to me), now however i think that bikes can be far more useful than i had considered.The same remains true of warbuggies. Thanx to you all

I now expect every forum argument to be prefaced with "in the interests of all new players it is important to point out"

I haven't written a tactica.

Or HAVE you?? Bum bum bummmmmm.

Dash - I think he was just referring to your 'body of written works'. which is substantial and a good read.

I am enjoying the discussion too. I know they are not an optimal choice - but I am going to run them anyway too. I have been running 3X Battlewagons or 3X Shooty Mobs for a long time and I just want to change things up. Same reason my next list in my local league is a Flash Gitz army.

This has given me some great ideas. I am going to run a BW/Truck list with Bikes. You don't have to talk us out of running Bikes, we are going to.

QuietOrkmi wrote:

I don't think that side stepping units is a way to throw away the game per se. Bikes have very good mobility and can generally choose when they engage the enemy. By choosing to have a weaker unit avoid a stronger one doesn't seem like a way to lose a game.

The only problem is that you spent a lot of points on a unit that can only handle units vastly weaker then it... The main question on my mind would then be, if you were to go past the 2:1 Biker klaw for hunting things that do not fight back (Vehicles) and things that are not very good in HTH but excellent in shooting (devestators), What would be the ideal target? The problem with increasing the size of the warbiker unit is that its main target never really changes from when their was 2 of them and a Nob with a powerklaw to when there is 11 of them and a Nob with a powerklaw. In fact, it could be argued that they are less effective because of the larger footprint, the difficulty in hiding 12 bikes to the difficulty of hiding 3 of them. Sure there would be more wounds to soak up incoming fire but you have more incoming fire because units can draw line of sight to them, then their is still the morale problem...

From the Ork codex, the vest way I could think to destroy TWC would be to shoot it with lootas or burnas from a battlewagon if they all had 3++ saves on top of their 3+ saves. Remember Shoota daoppa and Choppa the Shoota!

The battlewagon moved 6" so needs 4+ to hit and the flamers are bound to hit 3 TWC models resulting in about 30+ S4 hits, against the T5, this is about 10 wounds... Even if they were complexed, a unit of 5 takes 2 wounds on every model. Statiscally 1/9 of them will fail both their 3+ saves while 4/9 of them suffer 1 wound. Even if their is 5 of them, that is .555 of them dead, 2.222 with one wound left and 2.222 unharmed... Our greatest strength is not punching terminator armor but reminding the terminator that exist by having them roll 15 dice.

It's better then that, they have one chance at a 3+ not two.

Assuming 12 burnas + mek in battle wagon

4 models hit = 52 hits

17.3 wounds

5.77 wounds

so at least two dead and another likely to be dead or have one wound left

gpfunk wrote:Neither does a bit of your grammar. But hey, whos keeping score?

I m sorry for you that you have comprehension problem, but hei I can't help it. I don't know how to stoop down to your level to aid your understanding.

gpfunk wrote:Consider all the other units in the ork codex that could do damage to TWC, i'm sure a seasoned ork player has more than one in his army that could deal with them. Best to let them handle it, and get your bikes to other fodder that they can actually kill.

Using something that is 25pts a model as fodder? Wow, what a fat fodder If that's what you have picked up as a new player, then maybe you want to visit the Nova for some eye opener. If you already are, then excellent.

DashofPepper has valid points. But I also think warbikers are a matter of personal preference over other things.

I knew back a few years when Dash ran 5 man loota squads people questioned his choices. But it was his personal preference of style in play and I know people who have done warbikers and were successful.

I been using BikerBoyz for 10 years since the Armageddon codex came out and I can tell you they used to be a lot better! But I won't bore you with the details.

Today I use them at 75 for the 3 points, 90 for the nob with pole, and 115 with the 2:1 pole/klaw. They are a fantastic distraction unit. The only other Fast Attack I use are 1-off Rokkit Trakks at 40 points x3 mobs or if I want to use bikes, then 2 units of 1 of the options listed above and then put the 3 rokkit trakks into one unit for 120 points. I like to max out fast attack with cheap options.

I used to run BikerBoss with 11 BikerBoyz and BikerNob but stopped when 5th came out. I will never use that unit again in a competitive game with the current 5th edition rules and/or the current codex. At those points it draws way too much attention and firepower and dies instantly whereas the units of 3 commonly last most of the game now!!!

Same with Lootas: 15 are an important target for my opponents and die quickly while my 2 5-ork mobs routinely finish games.

Anywho, they are quite cost efficient when you consider the cost of a 4+ save 'Ard boyz is X points, add on a higher accuacry BS which equates to 8.333 points, consider that a naked Trukk for Boyz cost 3 points per model, throw in T5 and the cover save and the 25 points is a good deal.

For me the 2 biggest drawbacks are poor LD (the 3rd edition were Fearless!!!) and the fact that they must assault in a straight line and a lot of the things I want to assault are in cover and I have to take that stupid dangerous terrain test!!! So essentially I use them for mostly shooty and very rarely assaulty but always distracty

I hope this helped the OP if he or she can understand this old man's ramblings. . .

striderx wrote:

gpfunk wrote:Neither does a bit of your grammar. But hey, whos keeping score?

I m sorry for you that you have comprehension problem, but hei I can't help it. I don't know how to stoop down to your level to aid your understanding.

gpfunk wrote:Consider all the other units in the ork codex that could do damage to TWC, i'm sure a seasoned ork player has more than one in his army that could deal with them. Best to let them handle it, and get your bikes to other fodder that they can actually kill.

Using something that is 25pts a model as fodder? Wow, what a fat fodder If that's what you have picked up as a new player, then maybe you want to visit the Nova for some eye opener. If you already are, then excellent.

In an attempt to not turn this into a mindless argument I will not point out the fact that you can't seem to take the time to check your spelling, or the fact that you completely misread my post. Thanks for your input!

So bottom line is warbikers suck due to poor grammar... would you kids take it to PM's

Agreed, you can always tell when someone has run out of arguing steam, when they resort to insulting grammar and sentence structure. Seriously boys, how exactly does this help the discussion?

gpfunk wrote:
In an attempt to not turn this into a mindless argument I will not point out the fact that you can't seem to take the time to check your spelling, or the fact that you completely misread my post. Thanks for your input!

LOL, young boy, what a way to present your argument . And seriously if there is anything wrong with my spelling, it's probably because you don't recognise the word.
You've proven yourself, good job

And once more, when a discussion devolves from talking about the subject, to talking about the people talking about each other, then it's definitely dead.

I think even the 3 biker unit sucks the big balls for its points. It is only good if your opponent doesn't shoot it.

If it takes but one wound, it must test LD on 7. With a bosspole, you sacrifice the 2nd ork just to save the nob. No thanks.

Well with warbikers its not so bad rerolling a LD, I mean their armor save is 4+ They DO have uses, and Im sure would be a blast to play, specially since you never see them. Its like FlashGits for me, they are a blast to play, when we are just goofing around Ill take them, and sometimes they do surprising things. But like said many times in this discussion, there is certainly better things to take in the Heavy Support then a FlashGits mob, and their is certainly better things in the Fast Attack then bikers.

But we shall see how effective they really can be when Redbeard takes his to that tourny. I think most things, it really depends on who/how they are played, as always even a super tooled up list, in the hands of a not so good player, will suck, and a suck build in the hands of a capable player can do good. I think we all will be surprised after that tourny with Redbeards biker mobs. Thats one of those things, where no one ever uses them, so everyone else isnt familiar with them. And that can be a pretty big advantage

I have seen biker armies in video battle reports. the ork army always get tabled.

In their defense, that player may suck. But it sure looks like they move up, shoot and assault to devestating effects, then get assaulted and killed.

bucheonman wrote:I have seen biker armies in video battle reports. the ork army always get tabled.

In their defense, that player may suck. But it sure looks like they move up, shoot and assault to devestating effects, then get assaulted and killed.

In all fairness, you could take the reference to ork bikers out, and apply that statement to any ork unit (they move up shoot and assault to devastating effects, then get assaulted and killed.)

Orks belong on the assault, not getting assaulted. =p

I just believe that Ork assaults need to be decisive. They need to get the job done. If we're talking about massed warbikers, they can't do what a battlewagon of 20 boyz can do. Or a unit of nobs in a battlewagon.

I can see the reason why people would take 3 warbikers (one being a nob) as a distraction unit and to get some anti-tank duty in.....but since they can't scout, they can't do it on turn1 like a deffkopta, so ther's no tying up longfangs / shaking/stunning/wrecking predators/razorbacks on turn1 before they've had a chance to do anything.

As a screening unit I suppose a unit of warbikers can screen against assaults, but not only do warbuggies get the same save (4+), but they're also much harder to kill. A bolter needs a 6 to glance, not a 5 to wound, and even if shots get through the save, it isn't an automatically dead model. I love shaken warbuggies. =D

I made the mistake of engaging in a unit- vs. unit comparison in a vacuum somewhere much earlier, and I shouldn't have because that's never the case. Every potential role that a warbiker can fill in an army, can be done better, more effectively, or for less points and just as effectively somewhere else in the army - in some cases more than one of those things at a time.

A nob on a bike with a couple of warbikers tagging along might ultimately be more effective at assaulting a ravager out of the sky because of the STR9 powerklaw (if you can hit it), or a Baal predator, or a regular predator or....etc - but there's an opportunity cost. Those dark lances / lascannons / autocannons got to fire for at least a turn. What if that's a battlewagon exploded that otherwise wouldn't have been fired at because the tank was shaken+?

When everything gets added together, there are just better ways to spend points.

Like on what Dash? As an Ork vet and obviously having much experience and (questionable at times) knowledge, how would fill a Fast Attack slot (or 3) in a speed freaks/ evil sunz style army?

Probably like most Ork players fill them, with Warbuggies or Deffcoptas. It even stays in the fluff, because those two vehicles (heck, most of the fast attack other than Stormboyz) are fast, noisy vehickles.

Fluff wise it makes sense, but lets see what the "Masterful Ork Tactician" has to say.

Juvieus Kaine wrote:Fluff wise it makes sense, but lets see what the "Masterful Ork Tactician" has to say.

No need to be a jerk, we're all playing nicely here.

Since I *play* speed freaks, and I *link* all sorts of battle reports in my signature, and you're *still* asking that question, I presume you don't actually read anything I write, or put any stock in my opinions. And before you protest with wide eyed innocence, I'm sure you had "honorable intentions" and no "ulterior motives."

My apologies for sound jerk like Not really intended. I just sometimes question your suggestions.

And I've tried reading your battle reports. I couldn't make out much from them. I prefer having the basic statement with a reason.
So am I to assume koptas and warbuggies like Anvildude suggested? Or would you say otherwise?

Ask Dash about the number of times he's managed to blow the rokkit of one of three buggies in a squad, only to see his remaining fire at them end up doing nothing but shaking that one buggy with no rokkit anyway.

I love wound allocation shenanigans for squadrons.

Heffling wrote:Ask Dash about the number of times he's managed to blow the rokkit of one of three buggies in a squad, only to see his remaining fire at them end up doing nothing but shaking that one buggy with no rokkit anyway.

I love wound allocation shenanigans for squadrons.

this makes my head hurt? Whhhaaaattt?

Warbuggies are great if you stay under your KFF. After than they die on a roll of 3+ on the damage chart

Deff Koptas are a one trick pony, an experienced player will most likely screen your scout move from doing anything worth while on turn one.

Buggies are cheap and fast, and you can use them to outflank, or run up the middle to 'block' units and protect your vulnerable bits (like the rump of a Battlewagon) 3 twin-linked rockets are the best you're going to get with Ork shooting and they are cheaper than Coptas.

JK - I think you ought to run Coptas (2 in unit, one w/ buzzsaw) Buggies (3) and bikes. You have 3 slots. See which one you like best.

Half the fun is running it and seeing what happens - don't worry about having a 'perfect' army. Lots of good advice in this thread about what warbikes do well - and suck at. I have had mine die 1st turn, or roar around and wreck face all game (yeah, that was Tau).

Lost Boyz wrote:Buggies are cheap and fast, and you can use them to outflank, or run up the middle to 'block' units and protect your vulnerable bits (like the rump of a Battlewagon) 3 twin-linked rockets are the best you're going to get with Ork shooting and they are cheaper than Coptas.

JK - I think you ought to run Coptas (2 in unit, one w/ buzzsaw) Buggies (3) and bikes. You have 3 slots. See which one you like best.

Half the fun is running it and seeing what happens - don't worry about having a 'perfect' army. Lots of good advice in this thread about what warbikes do well - and suck at. I have had mine die 1st turn, or roar around and wreck face all game (yeah, that was Tau).

Now this I can get behind completely. Thats what I do when I play most the times. I personally dont get how the tourny guys can STILL have "fun" with the same army they have been taking to tournies with no change for fear of looking bad. I change my lists all the time. I am sticking to a bit of a theme, as in its double BigMeks and a bunch of shoota boyz, but like to try 3 looted Boomguns, or 9 kannons or the dred bash/kanwall thing (that one is just great) But I still change things around and try out new units, specially if they have been on the shelf a bit too long

KingCracker wrote: I personally dont get how the tourny guys can STILL have "fun" with the same army they have been taking to tournies with no change for fear of looking bad

There quite a few tournament players that can't have fun unless they are winning

I do run a little bit of each in my fast attack, while the smart player won't let you get a first turn assault on his manticore or whatever it is. It still makes them set up a certain way to protect his vital units which is the first step in getting them to play your game.

Deff Koptas are a one trick pony, an experienced player will most likely screen your scout move from doing anything worth while on turn one.

At that point you are dictating your opponent's deployment, and forcing a suboptimal set up (if the kopta did not exist)...

In addition, their is usually more than one target for the kopta... While they screen the kopta from getting to the longfangs/devastators, you can hit a transport with a scoring unit in it and limit the scoring unit's mobility in later turns or take their transport out of the fight. (which becomes more important when 2/3 games are objective based or when that transport has a high strength gun)

Before I forget! What is thought of assaulting the screening unit in front of the long fangs because of the "cannot shoot through combat clause"?

Next game I play I will use one unit of 2:1 Biker klaw, one unit of buzzkopta and one unit of warbuggies, then report my findings.

I've used both bikers and wound allocating nob bikers. The nobs faired fairly meh. Pretty much the same for the bikers, so bikers work better for me, I have almost twice the points to spend that way. They work well as a fast shooting/target unit. If they are killing my bikes they aren't killing my 2 30 mobs closing in assault after running for 2 turns. Of course if I dropped the bikers I'd get at least one more possibly 2 30 boy units to fight with.

I like to run with a mixed army right now till I get more bikers. I run bikes up the middle or off to a weak flank. A truck on both flanks and 2 30 boyz units in the middle just off to either side. And I've had good effect making them bionic boyz despite the fact I could bring another unit for the price.

QuietOrkmi wrote:

Before I forget! What is thought of assaulting the screening unit in front of the long fangs because of the "cannot shoot through combat clause"?

What clause? Are you thinking of an earlier edition of the game?