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Post by: NAVARRO
From TGN
Maelstrom Games no longer to sell Battlefront
Battlefront have announced that UK retailer Maelstrom Games is no longer selling their products.
From their announcement:
Battlefront Miniatures Ltd of Auckland, New Zealand announces that Maelstrom Games of Mansfield, United Kingdom is no longer a retailer of its products. This applies to all brands and ranges sold by Battlefront Miniatures Ltd.
With immediate effect Maelstrom Games will no longer be one of our retailers.
Any customer who has advance orders for product yet to come out should contact Maelstrom to confirm their ability to supply or contact us directly and we will put you in touch with an alternative supplier.
Is Battlefront trying to control market prices?
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Post by: SilverMK2
Any idea why? And where is that announcement from? - edit - just read the first line
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Post by: BrookM
Well, seeing as FoW was one of the few ranges that never benefited from Maelstroms many discount vouchers, my guess is Battlefront didn't want to sell too cheap.
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Post by: jim30
Maelstrom recently did a very effusive piece on 'forged in battle' and I wonder whether that precipitated things? To be honest I've seen a lot of suggestions that Battlefront are as controlling as GW when it comes to products, so its no surprise if they cut off Maelstrom.
Personally I'm holding out for the fire sale as they cut down their stock.
that said, it seems a very extreme way to react, and one that will make BF look a little silly.
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Post by: Earthbeard
I remember reading somewhere that you aren't allowed to discount Battlefront stuff as part of the trade licencse, barring a a few item!?
Maybe some kind of breach on one or the other side?
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Maelstrom said they'd be telling their side of the story later today or tomorrow. Let's all just refrain from rampant speculation until then?
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Post by: NAVARRO
jim30 wrote:Maelstrom recently did a very effusive piece on 'forged in battle' and I wonder whether that precipitated things? To be honest I've seen a lot of suggestions that Battlefront are as controlling as GW when it comes to products, so its no surprise if they cut off Maelstrom.
Personally I'm holding out for the fire sale as they cut down their stock.
that said, it seems a very extreme way to react, and one that will make BF look a little silly.
Well sillyness will come with a very big price tag, I mean I dont see many stores like Mael outhere.
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Post by: spaceelf
I don't think price controls by a company are necessarily a bad thing. Video game companies have done it for years and I don't see many people complaining. In the case of tabletop wargames price controls serve a very important purpose, to keep local shops in business. FLGS are an important part of the hobby, as they provide a place to play and hobby, and serve as the hub of a group of gamers.
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Post by: Ulver
spaceelf wrote:I don't think price controls by a company are necessarily a bad thing. Video game companies have done it for years and I don't see many people complaining.
Really?! I see (hear) lots of people complaining; they often use it as justification for pirating games (although that's another (dead horse) conversation).
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Post by: NAVARRO
spaceelf wrote:I don't think price controls by a company are necessarily a bad thing. Video game companies have done it for years and I don't see many people complaining. In the case of tabletop wargames price controls serve a very important purpose, to keep local shops in business. FLGS are an important part of the hobby, as they provide a place to play and hobby, and serve as the hub of a group of gamers.
Thats a customer decision IMO... Some people dont have stores near, some play at home or clubs some have flags but are not inclined to buy there... I mean its called free market. They can try to controll the market prices but thats not good for the customer since you dont have options. No thank you sir.
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Post by: Earthbeard
spaceelf wrote:I don't think price controls by a company are necessarily a bad thing. Video game companies have done it for years and I don't see many people complaining. In the case of tabletop wargames price controls serve a very important purpose, to keep local shops in business. FLGS are an important part of the hobby, as they provide a place to play and hobby, and serve as the hub of a group of gamers.
Then you haven't looked ahard enough, complaints at VGame prices are as rabid as GW price threads, coupled with a lot of the publishers/developers hoping to curtail and destroy the secondary market, VGame complaints are only going to rise.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
spaceelf wrote:Video game companies have done it for years and I don't see many people complaining.
Maybe that's because those who disagree with the prices can easily get vidya games for free?
Steam's success proves that there was a huge untapped market just waiting to buy games at reasonable prices.
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Post by: Mad4Minis
spaceelf wrote: FLGS are an important part of the hobby, as they provide a place to play and hobby, and serve as the hub of a group of gamers.
That really varies a lot. I have spent extremely few of my gaming hours in a store. Even when I had a decent store available every group Ive been a part of has done the majority of their gaming at home. Really once you get used to it there is no substitute...gaming in a home offers benefits that a store cant.
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Post by: spaceelf
Well, it certainly looks like I am in the minority opinion on this one.  If this is the case, then the decision by Battlefront may be a very bad one, especially in that WWII miniatures are quite common. Many companies, including GW and WOTC think that local stores are important. We shall see how it works out for all parties involved.
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Post by: Theduke07
First miniature market, now maelstorm. Something is up.
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Post by: ruyn
Mad4Minis wrote:spaceelf wrote: FLGS are an important part of the hobby, as they provide a place to play and hobby, and serve as the hub of a group of gamers.
That really varies a lot. I have spent extremely few of my gaming hours in a store. Even when I had a decent store available every group Ive been a part of has done the majority of their gaming at home. Really once you get used to it there is no substitute...
Agreed. I've been a gamer for over 15 years, and I've spent all of maybe 10 hours gaming in an FLGS. In the end, it's a balance of price and convenience that makes me buy. For paint, I'm almost always going to count on the FLGS due to the convenience and the fact that online prices, after shipping, aren't a huge savings, if at all. For models, well... eBay is my friend, as price on a $50+ model is always the number one factor.
Mad4Minis wrote:gaming in a home offers benefits that a store cant.
One word: beer. It's a staple in my gaming environment. 'nuff said.
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Post by: Kymera
Earthbeard wrote:I remember reading somewhere that you aren't allowed to discount Battlefront stuff as part of the trade licencse, barring a a few item!?
Maybe some kind of breach on one or the other side?
From what I know about the local stores in my area the agreement states that you cannot discount Battlefront merchandise more than 10%. I have no idea if that's universal though or whether that has anything to do with what happened to Maelstrom.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
ruyn wrote:
One word: beer. It's a staple in my gaming environment. 'nuff said.
Your FLGS doesn't allow beer?
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Post by: Soladrin
Mine sells beer XD
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Post by: Slinky
Soladrin wrote:Mine sells beer XD
Vincent Vega: All right. Well, you can walk into a game shop in Amsterdam and buy a beer. And I don't mean just like in no paper cup, I'm talking about a glass of beer.
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Post by: warboss
jim30 wrote:Maelstrom recently did a very effusive piece on 'forged in battle' and I wonder whether that precipitated things?
what is "forged in battle"? a blog or a podcast or something? what did they say?
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Post by: George Spiggott
Forged in battle is a 'rival' 15mm model manufacturer.
Battlefront's prices have got a little OTT recently. acting 'like GW' would be a very dumb move for Battlefront IMO.
Peter Pig have also started to release blister (clam?) packs. The 15mm WWII demographic shifting. I suspect early war has not gone well for Battlefront, mainly due to their poor choices of model releases. Other manufacturers have capitalised upon this. 'Forged in Battle' are the first new (AFAIK) manufacturer to appear in the 'FoW boom'.
This may prove to be very interesting. Battlefront could certainly benefit from a price restructure (downwards).
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
FiB are hit and miss.
Interesting soldier sculpts, but myn tanks are sculpted to their base and proportions on tanks are sometimes a little bit strange. Also soldiers and guns are not always in scale.
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Post by: derek
When I was looking at an alternative to 40k, and not looking to spend the same amount of gaming dollars on it, a friend suggested Flames of War. After looking at the prices, both retail and online, I realized that Flames of War was just as expensive. Sad too, because it usually gets as many or more people at local conventions than 40k.
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Post by: warboss
while i can't comment about FoW (i dabbled in the game by buying a few books *just* before the current edition came out.. very bad timing on my part and didn't continue out of disgust), it's difficult to find an alternative to GW now on price. it used to be that other companies were markedly cheaper when comparing apples to apples (similarly sized and quality figs) but that no longer is the case; the other "big boys" in minis gaming have caught up (or even surpassed) GW in terms of price gauging. Mantic is the only producer i can think of that still does things inexpensively.
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
FoW ist still way cheaper to get into than GW. Depends just on the list you are playing
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Post by: NAVARRO
Duncan_Idaho wrote:FoW ist still way cheaper to get into than GW. Depends just on the list you are playing
I tend to imagine 15mm kind of games way less expensive than their 28mm big brothers... Dont follow FOW prices anymore but things seem to be a bit expensive by comparison with other 15mm minis?
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Post by: 12thRonin
Yep, but there are alot more value driven lines out there. You don't need BF figs to play Flames. A Tiger is a Tiger and a Sherman is a Sherman regardless off if it's BF, Peter Pig, Old Glory, etc.
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Post by: skrulnik
At least with historicals, there are alternatives.
My preference is Old Glory for artillery, guns, and infantry, and Battlefront for tanks.
But to do my Afrika Tank Company, I filled out with Old Glory tanks. 3 for the price of one BF tank.
BF makes some good resin objectives as well.
The pre-painted scenery done by Gale Force 9 for FoW is beautiful stuff.
If I played more games in 15mm I might pick some up.
Too pricey to get for one game and one scale.
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Post by: notprop
BF seem to be very controlling, I have never seen their products for less than 10% anywhere in the UK except a big high street chain (hobby craft) that did end of line/blue cross sales at 30%+.
I've not seen Maelstrom discounting under 10%. I find it very perculiar that BF feel the need to advertise this - Seems a bit personal to me.
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Post by: fullheadofhair
I have enough for my german army but won't be buying any more BF mini's because the cost is too high for the quality you are getting. The resin tanks are badly designed and the general casting is pretty crappy (bubbles in resin, half tracks that were actually bent) to be honest. The metal tank tracks have been horrific and have required substantial revwork. I have not been happy with a single model from them. I have bought enough models to have a layable army and that is all they are getting out of me.
I would recommend that people buy from another source rather than BF where possible. Everything is now produced in Malaysia and I am sorry to say but it shows.
I am planning on a T34 Russian tank army and not a single mini of it will come from BF if all goes to plan.
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Post by: Wehrkind
I have to wonder what makes miniature manufacturers decide to raise prices a lot and disallow discounts. On the latter point, I would think that so long as they are selling for the same price and making the same volumes, they shouldn't mind what the retailers turn around and sell them for.
On the former, why on earth anyone would think "I can raise prices and make more money while doing the same thing!"as though markets don't respond to that? Perhaps that is not what they are thinking, but it seems to be pretty directly related at least, otherwise why increase the price on a product that otherwise is exactly the same? Nearly every other product type offers more value for less money compared to say 10 years ago, and while I agree that models now are much nicer than they were in 2000, I don't know that I would say they are so much nicer that the price increase makes a lot of sense.
I would love to attend a lecture by say GW or BF's presidents or CEOs explaining their business plans and some of their decisions. There is either some clever trick I want to know about, or they just don't understand business well.
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Post by: fullheadofhair
Wehrkind wrote:There is either some clever trick I want to know about, or they just don't understand business well.
Having worked in business for 21 years and wo in mutliple industries I think I am leaning more to the latter part of your statement. I still don't get how the same tactics keep getting pursued and different results expected. A simple tour of FLGS and stores by senior decision makers would give an easy indication of what is going on. You wouldn't even need to talk to anyone, just sit and watch a store for a couple of days and watch how people make pricing decisions in real time.
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Post by: Bloodwin
It's not just the cost of the models but also the independent support. I see plenty of shops on the web that do discounted GW models, I also see a lot of independent GW tournaments. If BF annoy too many of these people the hobby around the game will suffer and so will their sales.
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Post by: Absolutionis
Bloodwin wrote:It's not just the cost of the models but also the independent support. I see plenty of shops on the web that do discounted GW models, I also see a lot of independent GW tournaments. If BF annoy too many of these people the hobby around the game will suffer and so will their sales.
...and unlike GW, Battlefront's customers have an alternative source of miniatures. Battlefront's miniatures are already competing with other miniatures such as Command Decision.
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Post by: BrookM
Plastic Solider is also stepping up by tackling several scale ranges at the same time and keeping up the quality regardless of size (talking about their tanks, I'm clueless about their soldiers)
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
I would think their limitation of discounts is originated in their wanting to help individual retailers.
Small gaming shops would likely fail to compete with larger web centric stores in terms of pricing. Add in lack of sales tax and it's quite an uphill battle for small shops....which I'm assuming multiple shops spread over large areas is better for FOW growth...
It's just a guess though.
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Post by: spaceelf
I feel remiss about not firmly defending local game stores on the previous page. Some players may like to play at home, but game stores offer the opportunity for pick up games and an environment to meet new players. I believe that without local stores the industry would suffer greatly.
Some comments were also made about price controls. Price controls by a manufacturer are totally fair. Everybody pays the same price, whether they buy on the net or from a FLGS. If you do not like a company's prices, that is a separate issue. Sure, if you get stuff on discount you can buy more stuff, but if you are buying wargaming products you obviously have a decent amount of disposable income. You can play Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Mordheim, or LOTR for about $50 US retail.
The free market will lead to giant stores, like Wal Mart. They can afford to sell cheap because their overhead, such as stores, accountants, lawyers, etc... is divided amongst all of the different types of products that they sell. They initially offer products at huge discounts. Their competitors are put out of business. Then they raise prices. Wal Mart has been. It is very bad for the consumer. Another way in which they hurt the consumer is that they essentially dictate the products that are manufactured. Wal Mart wants high volume sales. So I hope that you guys like more Space Marines.
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Post by: Aldramelech
IMHO I think BF are in trouble, and they know it.
The Plastic Soldier Company and Zvevda are now both producing kits twice as good and half the price of BF and although the range is limited atm it will only grow, Zvevda's release schedule for this year is already impressive. BF have missed the boat, the future is bright, the future IS plastic.
Many people on the BF site are openly saying that BF's quality has slipped and are saying nice things about Forged in Battle, more competition.
Early war has not gone down as well as hoped, probably something to do with us old WW2 buffs having very real issues with BF's very selective outlook on history (No Polish AA or Air....Really?) and the younger generation buying into the German heavy tank myth.
Then we have BF's increasingly GW type antics, try even mentioning that there are other WW2 ranges out there and watch how fast the Mods fall on you!
Their total inability to arrange a sensible international price structure.
And now this? Ive been saying for months that BF are pissing off their customers and that they are getting worse, wasn't wrong was I?
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Post by: Holdenstein
Just thought that I'd add that all the Gale Force 9 stuff has gone on "While Stocks last" at Maelstrom too. As BF own GF9, it's not that surprising, but it might not be that obvious either...
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Post by: Aldramelech
spaceelf wrote:I feel remiss about not firmly defending local game stores on the previous page. Some players may like to play at home, but game stores offer the opportunity for pick up games and an environment to meet new players. I believe that without local stores the industry would suffer greatly.
Some comments were also made about price controls. Price controls by a manufacturer are totally fair. Everybody pays the same price, whether they buy on the net or from a FLGS. If you do not like a company's prices, that is a separate issue. Sure, if you get stuff on discount you can buy more stuff, but if you are buying wargaming products you obviously have a decent amount of disposable income. You can play Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Mordheim, or LOTR for about $50 US retail.
The free market will lead to giant stores, like Wal Mart. They can afford to sell cheap because their overhead, such as stores, accountants, lawyers, etc... is divided amongst all of the different types of products that they sell. They initially offer products at huge discounts. Their competitors are put out of business. Then they raise prices. Wal Mart has been. It is very bad for the consumer. Another way in which they hurt the consumer is that they essentially dictate the products that are manufactured. Wal Mart wants high volume sales. So I hope that you guys like more Space Marines.
Ive never understood the FLGS thing Im afraid. Ive never seen the attraction, Ive been wargaming for 25+ years and have never gamed in a shop, do what we do in England and have been doing since the 1970's, join/form a club and buy mail order. Automatically Appended Next Post: Holdenstein wrote:Just thought that I'd add that all the Gale Force 9 stuff has gone on "While Stocks last" at Maelstrom too. As BF own GF9, it's not that surprising, but it might not be that obvious either...
That will include Wargames Ilustrated too.....................
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Post by: George Spiggott
This isn't about discounts, lots of on-line retailers and my FLGS offer the same 10% discount that Maelstrom do. Battlefront's quality control has always been patchy (that's not to say that at times is has not been very good). Battlefront's sculpts are often excellent, but their prices are too high.
Battlefront cannot treat the 15mm WWII market as their own and hope to succeed. GW can (maybe) treat their games like they exist in a vacuum, they have a worldwide chain of stores and an exclusive IP to work with; Battlefront do not.
Someone is about to learn a lesson in humility I think.
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Post by: carmachu
spaceelf wrote:I feel remiss about not firmly defending local game stores on the previous page. Some players may like to play at home, but game stores offer the opportunity for pick up games and an environment to meet new players. I believe that without local stores the industry would suffer greatly.
You must be a newcommer to the wargaming scene. I've been playing long before FLGS were doing much for folks, and havent really seen much use for them in the 20+ years of RPG's and wargames. To be honest I've seen most of the bad. If you got a good one great. But FLGS have been irrelevant to my hobby life in both cases. If they all went under, I'd still be playing. As would more then a few other people.
They havent provided me with much that I havent been able to get online or in a couple friends basements.
Sad part is they made themselves irrelevant.
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Post by: spaceelf
Aldramelech wrote:
Ive never understood the FLGS thing Im afraid. Ive never seen the attraction, Ive been wargaming for 25+ years and have never gamed in a shop, do what we do in England and have been doing since the 1970's, join/form a club and buy mail order.
The gaming clubs that I have seen only meet once a week or so. If they do not have their own space then the tables and terrain usually suffer. FLGS are usually open 7 days a week and have long hours. All you need to do is drop in to find a game or get painting help.
Automatically Appended Next Post: carmachu wrote:
You must be a newcommer to the wargaming scene. I've been playing long before FLGS were doing much for folks, and havent really seen much use for them in the 20+ years of RPG's and wargames. To be honest I've seen most of the bad. If you got a good one great. But FLGS have been irrelevant to my hobby life in both cases. If they all went under, I'd still be playing. As would more then a few other people.
They havent provided me with much that I havent been able to get online or in a couple friends basements.
Sad part is they made themselves irrelevant.
I guess our experiences are different. I have been playing GW games since the early 90s, and have been role playing since the 80s. I have found most of my wargaming opponents through FLGS. They were also introduced to the game, like I was, through FLGS. Most importantly, if I want to play a game I don't need to call someone and arrange a meeting, I just need to go to the store and pick up a game. I can understand that RPGs are somewhat different, as there are more players and are campaign based.
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Post by: BrookM
I guess Battlefront will have to compensate with the release of more Germans!
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Post by: Soladrin
Slinky wrote:Soladrin wrote:Mine sells beer XD
Vincent Vega: All right. Well, you can walk into a game shop in Amsterdam and buy a beer. And I don't mean just like in no paper cup, I'm talking about a glass of beer.
Our entire country isn't made up of Amsterdam >_< I live about as far away from that cesspool as possible without leaving the country (I'm staring at the german border here).
And we just have a huge fridge in the playing area with a jar in front of it, 1 buck a can, all the regulars just throw in 30-ish bucks each month so they don't have to bother with coins for the rest of the month.
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Post by: perplexiti
Hey all, Maelstrom just posted over on warseer:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guys,
Apologies for not posting here but it's been quite a hectic day. We will be issuing a public statement tomorrow, which may raise a few eyebrows.
Cheers
Rob Lane
MD, Maelstrom Games
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also link to the post as well: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5340029#post5340029
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Post by: carmachu
spaceelf wrote:
I guess our experiences are different. I have been playing GW games since the early 90s, and have been role playing since the 80s. I have found most of my wargaming opponents through FLGS. They were also introduced to the game, like I was, through FLGS. Most importantly, if I want to play a game I don't need to call someone and arrange a meeting, I just need to go to the store and pick up a game. I can understand that RPGs are somewhat different, as there are more players and are campaign based.
very different. I have no use for FLGS. Have found my opponets through friends. I dont need to call anyone to arrange games, through the magical power of the internet, we make arrangements prior and meet up. I know when my free time is, so wandering in to a store and hopeing someone is around doesnt happen(as was the case many times). I dont have to worry about their crappy days and times stores decide wargaming is allowed. I dont have to deal with TFG. If I need something, again through the power of the internet, I can buy it, cheaper with no hassle.
Hell we've formed game clubs that are outside of FLGS sphere. In my area they've made it clear about what they want or dont want. But with the power of the pocket book, I've made it clear that I dont need them either.
RPG's arent that different. Ages ago, early 90's, the stores use to have meet up boards and games that would meet or looking for folks. But again, they eventually took those down. But again, through the internet, I've been playing in my current game for 4 years with no signs of let up. All done and found online, played both online and face to face.
I'll still consider them for tournments, but really FLGS have made themselves irrelevant to me. Might be different for you. And I know Milka or however his name is spelled runs an excellent one.- but I've found his to be an exception to the rule.
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Post by: deleted20250424
I do know that Battlefront requires an actual brick and mortar store be in place to get their items. You can't be web only. I found that out a few years back when investigating a startup.
As for FLGS.... I see a few people constantly bringing up the fact that people need to support theirs. If those FLGS want support via buying product there, then they need to compete. I have zero incentive to drive 10 miles and pay 100% retail anything I can get for 20% off and sit at home. The margins are there for FLGS/Brick & Mortar store to compete. They should also get a web presence.
Over my last 20+ years gaming, almost 99% of the time it's coworkers and friend of a friend, meet in the garage or someone's house. I agree with carmachu, I don't want to have to make an appointement for the 3rd Saturday of any month, 2pm - 4pm, when the game store has it's 2 tables "reserved" for 40k players.
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
The Plastic Soldier Company and Zvevda are now both producing kits twice as good and half the price of BF and although the range is limited atm it will only grow, Zvevda's release schedule for this year is already impressive. BF have missed the boat, the future is bright, the future IS plastic.
Must have been a Nuremberg toy fair on another planet I went to and had a look at Zvezda products... I saw the new kits in person and only the tanks can be used for 15mm, soldiers and guns and are definitly bigger. You could use the planes, too bzt both tanks and planes lack some detail. Also stocking Zvezda is a real pain in the ass, since you never know when and what you will get from them. Go asks shops to order something from their range of products and very often you will hear a groan, especially if you need that stuff urgently.
Many people on the BF site are openly saying that BF's quality has slipped and are saying nice things about Forged in Battle, more competition.
I had both products in my fingers and while soldiers are of comparable quality tanks from FiB come with a base plate that is difficult to remove and proportions are somewhat strange (e.g. Panther being quite thin and long). Also guns and soldiers are many times not in scale.
Then we have BF's increasingly GW type antics, try even mentioning that there are other WW2 ranges out there and watch how fast the Mods fall on you!
Nearly every company has a policy of not mentioning other companies on their website. Most do it to avoid legal complaints from the aforementioned other companies.
Their total inability to arrange a sensible international price structure.
They did quite agood job when compared to other companies. Not perfect, but prices between UK and Germany are only some cents apart these days.
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Post by: Wehrkind
spaceelf wrote:I feel remiss about not firmly defending local game stores on the previous page. Some players may like to play at home, but game stores offer the opportunity for pick up games and an environment to meet new players. I believe that without local stores the industry would suffer greatly.
Some comments were also made about price controls. Price controls by a manufacturer are totally fair. Everybody pays the same price, whether they buy on the net or from a FLGS. If you do not like a company's prices, that is a separate issue. Sure, if you get stuff on discount you can buy more stuff, but if you are buying wargaming products you obviously have a decent amount of disposable income. You can play Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Mordheim, or LOTR for about $50 US retail.
The free market will lead to giant stores, like Wal Mart. They can afford to sell cheap because their overhead, such as stores, accountants, lawyers, etc... is divided amongst all of the different types of products that they sell. They initially offer products at huge discounts. Their competitors are put out of business. Then they raise prices. Wal Mart has been. It is very bad for the consumer. Another way in which they hurt the consumer is that they essentially dictate the products that are manufactured. Wal Mart wants high volume sales. So I hope that you guys like more Space Marines.
No offense man, but the economics of your post are nearly perfectly incorrect. Pretty much everything after "If you don't like a company's prices, that is a separate issue" is demonstrably false. Just to touch on a few:
1: Not every wargamer has "a decent amount of disposable income". Salvage, for instance, lives on 15K a year as a grad student (give or take). I started wargaming when I was 12, making about 50$ a year. So unless your definition of "decent" is "enough to get 1 blister pack a quarter" saying wargamers necessarily have money to waste is silly.
2: The free market leads to giant stores, but it also leads to smaller stores. Implying that some day there will be only Wal Mart (as you do, otherwise your argument makes less than zero sense) suggests that somehow, all of the small stores that exist anywhere are some sort of aberration. The market has been free (and increasingly less so) much longer than your FLGS has even existed.
3: WalMart's success has largely been due to innovations in employee training and capital (essentially using very low skilled employees to provide a lot of value) as well as a very strong supply chain. The different products aspect is completely irrelevant to overhead costs as well; those are distributed across the total volume of products sold, not the different types.
4: The theory that companies can become dominant in an industry or region by entering, underselling everyone, then raising prices after they all go out of business is really bad economics. It is the constant threat of competition cropping up that keeps their prices low, and that exists so long as any other person can enter the market. Theoretically you could have sufficiently high barriers to entry to avoid that, but unless it is governmentally erected why wouldn't keep THEM from entering in the first place. There's a fair body of work done on why this model of monopoly doesn't work, yet for some reason the silly fallacy keeps popping up. Like homeopathy...
5: WalMart dictates what they sell at their stores. Companies that want to have WalMart sell their products need to make the the things that WalMart wants to sell. If they don't, they sell them somewhere else. You might not realize it, but far more things are sold in non-WalMart stores than in WalMart, suggesting that WalMart has very little ability to dictate what is made and sold.
6: Walmart doesn't sell Space Marines, or any other GW products.
As a side note, if you are interested in meeting players that play wargames, there are many organizations that do so. HMGS East is a really good one on the east coast that puts on Cold Wars, Historicon and Fall IN! among other events. Good conventions to meet people from all over and play many different systems, scales and eras.
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Post by: General Hobbs
Just some intel on Battlefront....their entire US staff is made up of ex GWers. I think the manager or US CEO used to be the guy in charge of retail in the US for GW, and their other head guy used to be the head salesman. Their sales guys are the same ones who used to work for GW before they moved away. I think alot of thier New Zealand staff came from GWUS as well, but the company is owned by a New Zealander.
Someone made a comment about miniature companies engaging in price gauging. Sorry son, there's no such thing as price gauging. In a free market you can charge what you want for your product and make as much money as you can.
FLGS vs playing at home.....I hate to say it, but 50% of gamers out there I would not want to come in my house, and the rest are little kids. The FLGS is neutral ground.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Hobbs is right! It's a conspiracy.
Where did I put my decoder ring...
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Post by: Chimera_Calvin
Battlefront have just shot themselves in the foot here, methinks.
Wehrkind is absolutely right in that no matter how big/controlling a company gets, there is nothing to stop a new company coming in and doing the same thing cheaper. This is particularly relevant with historicals as there is no IP that can be protected (save the ruleset).
What we need now is for the sci-fi/fantasy market to step up and for someone to give GW real competition (fingers crossed for Mantic, here). Ultimately in the free market competition is always the primary driving force for change.
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Post by: jim30
I've been following BF and playing FOW on and off for about 7 years now. In that time I would say that BF has definitely changed as a company from being a very open and laid back organisation to becoming a much more controlling 'GW lite' style organisation.
I am increasingly uncomfortable with their direction of travel, and I believe that their minis are not as good as they were even 3 or 4 years ago.
I've heard it said that BF is just as ruthless to GW when it comes to looking after staff, and I suspect its built itself into a position where its ex GW staffers are now trying to push it as the new GW for historical gaming. I have a bad feeling about this!
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Post by: Aldramelech
Duncan_Idaho wrote:The Plastic Soldier Company and Zvevda are now both producing kits twice as good and half the price of BF and although the range is limited atm it will only grow, Zvevda's release schedule for this year is already impressive. BF have missed the boat, the future is bright, the future IS plastic.
Must have been a Nuremberg toy fair on another planet I went to and had a look at Zvezda products... I saw the new kits in person and only the tanks can be used for 15mm, soldiers and guns and are definitly bigger. You could use the planes, too bzt both tanks and planes lack some detail. Also stocking Zvezda is a real pain in the ass, since you never know when and what you will get from them. Go asks shops to order something from their range of products and very often you will hear a groan, especially if you need that stuff urgently.
I never said Zvevda provided men or guns, they are from their 72nd scale range. As for the Tanks I have one of their T26's here and its fantastic and purchased with no fuss from the internet. As for guns Zvevda are releasing BM-13's in 15mm next month. If you regard BF tanks as detailed then maybe your on the wrong planet! If resin bubbles, missing parts, messed up metal tracks that have to be rebuilt and mold lines as big as the San Andreas Fault are your thing, then more power to you sunshine.
Many people on the BF site are openly saying that BF's quality has slipped and are saying nice things about Forged in Battle, more competition.
I had both products in my fingers and while soldiers are of comparable quality tanks from FiB come with a base plate that is difficult to remove and proportions are somewhat strange (e.g. Panther being quite thin and long). Also guns and soldiers are many times not in scale.
Again I have several different FIB sets in my Soviet army (Mortars, HMGs, Command Figures) and I think they are far Superior to BF.
Then we have BF's increasingly GW type antics, try even mentioning that there are other WW2 ranges out there and watch how fast the Mods fall on you!
Nearly every company has a policy of not mentioning other companies on their website. Most do it to avoid legal complaints from the aforementioned other companies.
Check out Westwind Productions and Grindhouse Games to see how a gaming company's forum should be run, you can mention what you want and show pictures of any figure you want as long as it is being used to play their games. To quote Jim Bailey of Grindhouse Games "This is YOUR game, no one here is gonna tell you how to play with your toys"Their total inability to arrange a sensible international price structure.
They did quite agood job when compared to other companies. Not perfect, but prices between UK and Germany are only some cents apart these days.
Really? And why is one of the biggest complaints on the BF site on this subject the fact that its is cheaper to order from Maelstrom then BF, even if you live in New Zealand! Automatically Appended Next Post: spaceelf wrote:Aldramelech wrote:
Ive never understood the FLGS thing I'm afraid. Ive never seen the attraction, Ive been wargaming for 25+ years and have never gamed in a shop, do what we do in England and have been doing since the 1970's, join/form a club and buy mail order.
The gaming clubs that I have seen only meet once a week or so. If they do not have their own space then the tables and terrain usually suffer. FLGS are usually open 7 days a week and have long hours. All you need to do is drop in to find a game or get painting help.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
carmachu wrote:
You must be a newcommer to the wargaming scene. I've been playing long before FLGS were doing much for folks, and havent really seen much use for them in the 20+ years of RPG's and wargames. To be honest I've seen most of the bad. If you got a good one great. But FLGS have been irrelevant to my hobby life in both cases. If they all went under, I'd still be playing. As would more then a few other people.
They havent provided me with much that I havent been able to get online or in a couple friends basements.
Sad part is they made themselves irrelevant.
I guess our experiences are different. I have been playing GW games since the early 90s, and have been role playing since the 80s. I have found most of my wargaming opponents through FLGS. They were also introduced to the game, like I was, through FLGS. Most importantly, if I want to play a game I don't need to call someone and arrange a meeting, I just need to go to the store and pick up a game. I can understand that RPGs are somewhat different, as there are more players and are campaign based.
In England (the true home of wargaming) we are somewhat more organized. Most places have a wargames club that has its own long term venue with adequate storage for terrain and are more importantly INDEPENDENT from any shop. It is true that we only meet once or twice a week but this is a good thing as I see the problem with the FLGS is that younger members spend all their time there and never at home painting their bloody armies! I hold the FLGS entirely responsible for this phenomenon of playing with unpainted figures, something that was unthinkable 10 years ago and a very bad thing for the hobby. Buy something from the shop, glue it together and slap it on the table? No bloody thanks!
Support your local FLGS? Why? When I started wargaming such a thing did not exist, everything was bought at shows or mail order (and with postal orders too, no credit cards). Now I can order on the internet from sites with great pictures so I know what I'm getting for cheaper and I don't even need to type in my credit card number, why the hell would I want to go out in the car, pay to park, walk to the shop full of sweaty, smelly teenagers and pay more for what I want? Always assuming they stock what I want anyway.
Why would I go there to play? I can go to my club and play my friends, why would I want to play complete strangers who turn out to be donkey-caves who cant be bothered to paint their armies. I can go to my club and play what I want, why would I go to the shop and be told what to play? Why would I put up with someone telling me "You cant play that game, because I don't stock it"?
When did it become my responsibility to subsidize some idiot who decided to open a Wargames Shop?
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Post by: Osbad
What he ^^ said.
+1 for playing whatever game I want with lovely painted figures and nice terrain, with mates who's company I enjoy, and with a beer in my hand.
- 1 for playing a (possibly anti-social) complete stranger with (probably) an unpainted and even partially assembled army in (definitely) a game system I've got bored with but is one of only 2 or 3 supported by the store, with models I had to pay 25% more for than I needed to, and had to spend 2+ hours driving and parking to obtain.
Sure, gaming at stores has its place, but its not for me. And I live within easy reach of a GW "battlebunker" I also live within reach of 6 wargaming clubs, which meet on various different days of the week.
Given the choice, a thriving club culture beats the pants off LGS's, however "friendly".
Although I appreciate not everyone has the choice. I truly pity you if you do not!
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Post by: Big P
LOL!
Never played in a wargames shop either.
To be fair only ever been in two, and neither of them had tables to play on.
Both have closed down years ago.
I play at my local club and we have a purpose built location that has three tables, all 8 x 6, and storage for all the scenery. We are lucky that we had a club member willing to foot the bill for the clubs development!
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Post by: NAVARRO
General Hobbs wrote:
Just some intel on Battlefront....their entire US staff is made up of ex GWers. I think the manager or US CEO used to be the guy in charge of retail in the US for GW, and their other head guy used to be the head salesman. Their sales guys are the same ones who used to work for GW before they moved away. I think alot of thier New Zealand staff came from GWUS as well, but the company is owned by a New Zealander.
.
Really? That would explain... everything  Are you sure about that mate? Its a case of GW moles
Aldramelech wrote:In England (the true home of wargaming) we are somewhat more organized. Most places have a wargames club that has its own long term venue with adequate storage for terrain and are more importantly INDEPENDENT from any shop. It is true that we only meet once or twice a week but this is a good thing as I see the problem with the FLGS is that younger members spend all their time there and never at home painting their bloody armies! I hold the FLGS entirely responsible for this phenomenon of playing with unpainted figures, something that was unthinkable 10 years ago and a very bad thing for the hobby. Buy something from the shop, glue it together and slap it on the table? No bloody thanks!
Support your local FLGS? Why? When I started wargaming such a thing did not exist, everything was bought at shows or mail order (and with postal orders too, no credit cards). Now I can order on the internet from sites with great pictures so I know what I'm getting for cheaper and I don't even need to type in my credit card number, why the hell would I want to go out in the car, pay to park, walk to the shop full of sweaty, smelly teenagers and pay more for what I want? Always assuming they stock what I want anyway.
Why would I go there to play? I can go to my club and play my friends, why would I want to play complete strangers who turn out to be donkey-caves who cant be bothered to paint their armies. I can go to my club and play what I want, why would I go to the shop and be told what to play? Why would I put up with someone telling me "You cant play that game, because I don't stock it"?
When did it become my responsibility to subsidize some idiot who decided to open a Wargames Shop?
 Oh man so funny and all the same so accurate in some places.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Osbad wrote:+1 for playing whatever game I want with lovely painted figures and nice terrain, with mates who's company I enjoy, and with a beer in my hand. - 1 for playing a (possibly anti-social) complete stranger with (probably) an unpainted and even partially assembled army in (definitely) a game system I've got bored with but is one of only 2 or 3 supported by the store, with models I had to pay 25% more for than I needed to, and had to spend 2+ hours driving and parking to obtain. I agree. I am literally 5 minutes away from a GW... and you'd have to pay me to play there.
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Post by: legoburner
H.B.M.C. wrote:I love literally 5 minutes away from a GW... and you'd have to pay me to play there.
If they've seen you loving from their windows, they probably dont want you in there either.
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Post by: filbert
legoburner wrote:H.B.M.C. wrote:I love literally 5 minutes away from a GW... and you'd have to pay me to play there.
If they've seen you loving from their windows, they probably dont want you in there either.
I have to confess to loving right up against GW store's plate glass windows, just to show them what they are missing...
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Post by: carmachu
General Hobbs wrote:
FLGS vs playing at home.....I hate to say it, but 50% of gamers out there I would not want to come in my house, and the rest are little kids. The FLGS is neutral ground.
Thats what we refer to a "no duh" momement. There are folks in FLGS you avoid- due to age, maturity, hygene or other that you wouldnt play. What makes you think one invites them to your home? Automatically Appended Next Post: Aldramelech wrote:
In England (the true home of wargaming) we are somewhat more organized. Most places have a wargames club that has its own long term venue with adequate storage for terrain and are more importantly INDEPENDENT from any shop. It is true that we only meet once or twice a week but this is a good thing as I see the problem with the FLGS is that younger members spend all their time there and never at home painting their bloody armies! I hold the FLGS entirely responsible for this phenomenon of playing with unpainted figures, something that was unthinkable 10 years ago and a very bad thing for the hobby. Buy something from the shop, glue it together and slap it on the table? No bloody thanks!
I've been part of two indepent gaming clubs. Left the first after helping start it due to stufff and time. The second is much more like the first was in early days.
Their a bit harder to start in the US, but still doable.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
legoburner wrote:If they've seen you loving from their windows, they probably dont want you in there either.
Yeah I don't know what was going through my head when I wrote that...
I meant to say 'am'.
Weird.
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Post by: olympia
Osbad wrote:What he ^^ said.
+1 for playing whatever game I want with lovely painted figures and nice terrain, with mates who's company I enjoy, and with a beer in my hand.
+1 for your +1. Conan, what is good in life?
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Post by: SilverMK2
H.B.M.C. wrote:Yeah I don't know what was going through my head when I wrote that...
Obviously your attempt to mask your love for all things GW is starting to crack...
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Post by: spaceelf
I fear that I am derailing the thread, so if a mod wants to move this conversations somewhere else please do so. However, since alot of people are responding I will continue to post.
carmachu wrote:
very different. I have no use for FLGS. Have found my opponets through friends. I dont need to call anyone to arrange games, through the magical power of the internet, we make arrangements prior and meet up. I know when my free time is, so wandering in to a store and hopeing someone is around doesnt happen(as was the case many times). I dont have to worry about their crappy days and times stores decide wargaming is allowed. I dont have to deal with TFG.
To some extent you are confirming my initial point. Although you do not call your friends, you still have to arrange a game. I guess my FLGS is busier than yours, as I do not have trouble finding a game. More exotic games are another story however. The stores that I have frequented over the years have tables that are dedicated to wargaming.
carmachu wrote:
RPG's arent that different. Ages ago, early 90's, the stores use to have meet up boards and games that would meet or looking for folks. But again, they eventually took those down. But again, through the internet, I've been playing in my current game for 4 years with no signs of let up. All done and found online, played both online and face to face.
The reason that I said RPGs are different is that you probably have a larger group of people, who would rarely just happen to be at a FLGS for a game.
Wehrkind wrote:
No offense man, but the economics of your post are nearly perfectly incorrect. Pretty much everything after "If you don't like a company's prices, that is a separate issue" is demonstrably false. Just to touch on a few:
1: Not every wargamer has "a decent amount of disposable income". Salvage, for instance, lives on 15K a year as a grad student (give or take). I started wargaming when I was 12, making about 50$ a year. So unless your definition of "decent" is "enough to get 1 blister pack a quarter" saying wargamers necessarily have money to waste is silly.
That is precisely why I gave the examples of GW games that can be played for $50 in todays prices. Yes you can wargame on the cheap even if you buy retail.
Wehrkind wrote:
2: The free market leads to giant stores, but it also leads to smaller stores. Implying that some day there will be only Wal Mart (as you do, otherwise your argument makes less than zero sense) suggests that somehow, all of the small stores that exist anywhere are some sort of aberration. The market has been free (and increasingly less so) much longer than your FLGS has even existed.
This may sound like a non sequitur but FLGS only exist because big stores do not carry the same products. The big stores really do put the little ones out of business. Only niche smaller stores stay in business.
Wehrkind wrote:
3: WalMart's success has largely been due to innovations in employee training and capital (essentially using very low skilled employees to provide a lot of value) as well as a very strong supply chain. The different products aspect is completely irrelevant to overhead costs as well; those are distributed across the total volume of products sold, not the different types.
You are correct, it is all about volume. However they have a much larger volume than any FLGS could ever have. They have a larger volume of toy sales than Toys R US. A FLGS still needs to pay for accountants, advertising, etc. It is just difficult on the small guys.
Wehrkind wrote:
4: The theory that companies can become dominant in an industry or region by entering, underselling everyone, then raising prices after they all go out of business is really bad economics. It is the constant threat of competition cropping up that keeps their prices low, and that exists so long as any other person can enter the market. Theoretically you could have sufficiently high barriers to entry to avoid that, but unless it is governmentally erected why wouldn't keep THEM from entering in the first place. There's a fair body of work done on why this model of monopoly doesn't work, yet for some reason the silly fallacy keeps popping up. Like homeopathy...
The threat of competition is minimised because of the high cost of starting a business that can compete. I believe that GW made such a statement in their current financial report. Further, there are governmentally erected barriers. The big companies have legislation written for them. Currently Amazon is trying to make a deal with Tennesee to give it a free pass on sales tax if they build distribution centers in the state.
Wehrkind wrote:
5: WalMart dictates what they sell at their stores. Companies that want to have WalMart sell their products need to make the the things that WalMart wants to sell. If they don't, they sell them somewhere else. You might not realize it, but far more things are sold in non-WalMart stores than in WalMart, suggesting that WalMart has very little ability to dictate what is made and sold.
Although more things are sold in non-WalMart stores than in Wal Mart, it does not follow that WalMart has little ability to dictate what is made and what is not. In fact, in some sectors, I suspect that more things are sold by WalMart than by all other retailers combined. A decision by WalMart not to carry a toy series can kill it. It is well known that WalMart strong arms manufacturers.
To return to one of my initial points, I still believe that price controls are fair. People may not like them, as they want to pay less, but that does not mean that they are not fair. Again, I think that Battlefront believes that FLGS are essential to introducing new players to the game, and thus supports price controls.
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Post by: Alpharius
Did Maelstrom post their 'interesting' rebuttal yet?
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Post by: Kanluwen
H.B.M.C. wrote:Osbad wrote:+1 for playing whatever game I want with lovely painted figures and nice terrain, with mates who's company I enjoy, and with a beer in my hand.
- 1 for playing a (possibly anti-social) complete stranger with (probably) an unpainted and even partially assembled army in (definitely) a game system I've got bored with but is one of only 2 or 3 supported by the store, with models I had to pay 25% more for than I needed to, and had to spend 2+ hours driving and parking to obtain.
I agree.
I am literally 5 minutes away from a GW... and you'd have to pay me to play there.
I think that's the case for pretty much anyone who lives near the majority of GW shops.
But in regards to the whole "home" v. "store" gaming thing...we've gone over this time and time again on Dakka. In general, it seems Americans favor FLGSes(namely because of location and it serving as a sort of 'congregation point' for populations spread out over a large area) while the majority of UK/Oceanic Dakkaites prefer home or using public accomodations(which we don't have readily available to us here in the US).
Anyways...
I'm not really surprised this happened. Battlefront being made up of ex-GWers is not news, and this policy is eerily reminiscent of the online retailer crackdown.
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Post by: legoburner
Alpharius wrote:Did Maelstrom post their 'interesting' rebuttal yet?
Not yet, they are waiting for their solicitors to give it the all clear.
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Post by: infinite_array
Hm. I'm not sure if anyone else knows this, but Miniatures Market has also stopped carrying Battlefront Products. They're now doing a clearance sale, with each week getting a cumulative 10% off.
They're now at 40% off, I believe.
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Post by: warboss
legoburner wrote:H.B.M.C. wrote:I love literally 5 minutes away from a GW... and you'd have to pay me to play there.
If they've seen you loving from their windows, they probably dont want you in there either.
i thought he was a dedicated player/collector when i saw his superheavy tank collection in a pic... but taking his significant other to eyesight of the gw store to make sweet love is a whole other level!
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Post by: Panic
yeah, Wehrkind wrote:... 2: The free market leads to giant stores, but it also leads to smaller stores. Implying that some day there will be only Wal Mart...
Can't wait!
++ WarMart ++ F T W !
A geek super store that ends all FLGs. Woot!
Panic!...
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Post by: SilverMK2
An interesting read.
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
Some highlights from while reading that very well worded response
Maelstrom purchased roughly 16,000 dollars of 15mm terrain. Anyone have pictures of their tables, holy hell?!
Gordon Davidson, head of Battlefront Europe stated:
"You seem to be under the delsusion that somehow we are desperate for your business and cannot live without you. Let me be clear we will suffer a one month blip at worst and the business will be replaced by the rest of our UK accounts.....On both a personal and proffesional level I am very saddened to have to write this letter, until the middle of last year we were really growing well together and had found an accord."
Not only is that unprofessional and rather personal....it has several misspellings. He's the head of their Europe division?
RE: Maelstrom stating they ignored Battlefront's request of 10% off at most....stating that it's price fixing. IIRC that isn't price fixing but resale price maintenance, which is legal (Here in the States...don't know UK law on it). This could be a difference in localities on how resale price maintenance is viewed...which I'm assuming they had to sign a contract with Battlefront?
And while I disagree with how Battlefront handled the situation...I also disagree with Maelstrom regarding internet retailers and their impact on LGS. They state;
The fact is that the internet has completely changed the way our hobby works in many ways but certainly in terms
of sales, and I feel that some manufacturers simply do not understand what the customer wants any more - which,
to us anyway, is good products, cheap prices and fast service, and not necessarily a tiny retail store near them that
could never stock the huge ranges many manufacturers have (and therefore have to “order stock in”, meaning
customers have to wait days or weeks to get them). In our opinion, retail stores only work in this internet age if
customers have a reason to visit other than to buy - in other words, to play wargames socially - and simply
blaming the internet and, indeed, internet retailers for the struggles of local gaming stores is somewhat Luddite
and certainly narrow-minded. Our business model is there for all to see. There are good reasons why it has worked
so well for us.
While I agree that a LGS needs to have draws such as tournaments, etc....in the end some do suffer the free riding effect. If I understood it correctly when I had took the course, that is the very reason why resale price maintenance has been allowed to exist. While I think blaming internet retailers for the doom of LGS is narrow minded...I also think ignoring the effect they have on LGS is equally obtuse. Note this is not specific to Maelstrom as, from their own letter, go out of their way to service the community in the form of tables, tournaments, etc.
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Post by: Wehrkind
spaceelf wrote:Wehrkind wrote:
No offense man, but the economics of your post are nearly perfectly incorrect. Pretty much everything after "If you don't like a company's prices, that is a separate issue" is demonstrably false. Just to touch on a few:
1: Not every wargamer has "a decent amount of disposable income". Salvage, for instance, lives on 15K a year as a grad student (give or take). I started wargaming when I was 12, making about 50$ a year. So unless your definition of "decent" is "enough to get 1 blister pack a quarter" saying wargamers necessarily have money to waste is silly.
That is precisely why I gave the examples of GW games that can be played for $50 in todays prices. Yes you can wargame on the cheap even if you buy retail.
Wehrkind wrote:
2: The free market leads to giant stores, but it also leads to smaller stores. Implying that some day there will be only Wal Mart (as you do, otherwise your argument makes less than zero sense) suggests that somehow, all of the small stores that exist anywhere are some sort of aberration. The market has been free (and increasingly less so) much longer than your FLGS has even existed.
This may sound like a non sequitur but FLGS only exist because big stores do not carry the same products. The big stores really do put the little ones out of business. Only niche smaller stores stay in business.
Wehrkind wrote:
3: WalMart's success has largely been due to innovations in employee training and capital (essentially using very low skilled employees to provide a lot of value) as well as a very strong supply chain. The different products aspect is completely irrelevant to overhead costs as well; those are distributed across the total volume of products sold, not the different types.
You are correct, it is all about volume. However they have a much larger volume than any FLGS could ever have. They have a larger volume of toy sales than Toys R US. A FLGS still needs to pay for accountants, advertising, etc. It is just difficult on the small guys.
Wehrkind wrote:
4: The theory that companies can become dominant in an industry or region by entering, underselling everyone, then raising prices after they all go out of business is really bad economics. It is the constant threat of competition cropping up that keeps their prices low, and that exists so long as any other person can enter the market. Theoretically you could have sufficiently high barriers to entry to avoid that, but unless it is governmentally erected why wouldn't keep THEM from entering in the first place. There's a fair body of work done on why this model of monopoly doesn't work, yet for some reason the silly fallacy keeps popping up. Like homeopathy...
The threat of competition is minimised because of the high cost of starting a business that can compete. I believe that GW made such a statement in their current financial report. Further, there are governmentally erected barriers. The big companies have legislation written for them. Currently Amazon is trying to make a deal with Tennesee to give it a free pass on sales tax if they build distribution centers in the state.
Wehrkind wrote:
5: WalMart dictates what they sell at their stores. Companies that want to have WalMart sell their products need to make the the things that WalMart wants to sell. If they don't, they sell them somewhere else. You might not realize it, but far more things are sold in non-WalMart stores than in WalMart, suggesting that WalMart has very little ability to dictate what is made and sold.
Although more things are sold in non-WalMart stores than in Wal Mart, it does not follow that WalMart has little ability to dictate what is made and what is not. In fact, in some sectors, I suspect that more things are sold by WalMart than by all other retailers combined. A decision by WalMart not to carry a toy series can kill it. It is well known that WalMart strong arms manufacturers.
To return to one of my initial points, I still believe that price controls are fair. People may not like them, as they want to pay less, but that does not mean that they are not fair. Again, I think that Battlefront believes that FLGS are essential to introducing new players to the game, and thus supports price controls.
1: You miss the point that everyone's war gaming budget is variable, and people want to get the best deal for their cash. The fact that wargame companies seem to think their customers are independently wealthy and thus concern themselves not at all with pricing their customers out of the market is an issue. Demand curves have negative slope in general. Higher prices = fewer players and fewer models sold.
2: That is actually an incorrect point. For example, right next to the Super WalMart in the shopping center near here there is a RadioShack. RS sells next to nothing that WalMart doesn't, and in fact make most of their money off of batteries and cell phone subscriptions, both of which WalMart directly competes with them on. Next door to RS there is a PayLess Shoes, then a few restaurants, then a Tobacco store, a dry cleaners and a hair cutting place. Other than the restaurants and dry cleaners all those stores directly compete with WalMart (there's a little hair cutting place inside). Studies have actually shown that stores that share parking lot space with WalMart do far better on average, presumably because of the increased traffic and the ability of customers to easy choose between price and service, in much the same way that car dealerships likes to be clustered near each other.
3: Yes being a small store is more difficult in some ways than a big one, but there are lots of ways to compete. Ask Mikhalia (butchered the spelling) about how he runs a great set of small stores and manages to compete with larger online stores like Maelstrom and the Warstore. To quote him "[The Warstore] doesn't compete with me because they are cheaper, they can compete because they have good service." There are many things other than price that make people want to shop somewhere. Mike and Showcase have awesome service and are great to be around and talk with, so lots of people don't mind paying extra. Lots of other local stores don't have that, and thus suffer. I didn't shop at the local Hobbytown for years because they had crappy staff, but now they are generally better and so I buy things there periodically instead of online. I.e. You can't just compare one dimension; companies compete in vastly different ways.
4: Barriers to entry help, but they are obviously not as high as GW seems to think. There are LOTS of competitors in the miniature market, especially in Fantasy and Historicals. As to FLGS competition, those are not terribly high either, compared to other retail outlets at least. It isn't easy, but that is hardly the fault of WalMart, GW, or really most companies. They might pay politicians to write regulations they want (and they do), but the politicians are the ones selling the service. More to the point though, FLGS stores are losing out NOT to WalMart but to other smaller stores online that offer the same product for a lower price, and often with similar service. That is good for customers, otherwise they would be shopping at the FLGS.
5: How does WalMart dictate what is sold by other companies? If WalMart can only control what they sell, and many things are sold that they don't, it does in fact follow that they then do not dictate what is sold in the market in general. That's like saying I dictate what I buy for my household use, thus I dictate what gets produced for everyone's household use. I may influence it a little more or less, especially if I spend a lot of money, but it is still a drop in the bucket all told.
People said the same thing about Sears Roebuck, Montgomery Ward and other companies. It just isn't the case.
Now, I haven't addressed your statement that "Price controls are fair", largely because I don't necessarily disagree with it. BF is allowed to attach any requirements on their contracts they want, just as ever company buying them if free to tell them to bury their contract in their colon with a hand grenade. What is funny is that you complain about WalMart "strong arming" producers, then in the next breath say that BF or GW making demands on their customers is fine. The hypocrisy is troubling.
Further, just because BF attempting to dictate price is not evil, it doesn't mean that customers have to like it. I would much rather the intermediaries between me and production companies work hard to get me the lowest prices possible. It worries me when they all get together and decide on one price, as that means I am likely to be paying a lot more than I have to. Almost as if *gasp* they were a monopoly (as opposed to actually being a cartel.)
And I want to say, I have nothing against an FLGS. Showcase Comics is a great store, and Mike is terribly friendly. However, I feel no moral obligation to support his store beyond the value he supplies to me as I see fit just because it is a local store. (In fact, it isn't very local to me at all.) Mike has it right though, and recognizes what he offers and how it is different from other stores, and that is why he is very successful.
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Post by: Korcheski
AgeOfEgos wrote:
Gordon Davidson, head of Battlefront Europe stated:
"You seem to be under the delsusion that somehow we are desperate for your business and cannot live without you. Let me be clear we will suffer a one month blip at worst and the business will be replaced by the rest of our UK accounts.....On both a personal and proffesional level I am very saddened to have to write this letter, until the middle of last year we were really growing well together and had found an accord."
Not only is that unprofessional and rather personal....it has several misspellings. He's the head of their Europe division?
I totally agree with you here. As a business professional (one f!), if I saw that kind of verbiage in a contract or business letter then we would probably start seeking alternate business arrangements. If it was a business that had a one of a kind product, not only would we have to do some major soul searching to decide if we wanted to keep it, but we would also have our legal team work on redoing an official contract to protect ourselves and our clients. However that little phrase seems to be a black rose from Battlefront.
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Post by: Ozymandias
Wow, that first email to Maelstrom is one of the most unprofessional emails I've ever seen. If their goal was to completely destroy the relationship instead of coming to an agreement then the letter was a complete success. I would have been fired if I ever sent an email like that to one of my clients, no matter how upset we were at the client.
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Post by: Grot 6
There honestly might be more to the story then what we are seeing. I've never seen someone just outright go off the deep end like that without an honest reason.
Nerdrage not included, but the exchange seemed like it went to DEFCON 4 just out of the blue, and then to get back a letter like that?
I'm rather dubious on the response about that Internetz being sliced bread and all that double talk about online sales, but thats another issue entirely. That seemed like a collective response from an online seller to our conversation about the charging fee in stores.
I know one thing, though. I'm glad I'm not one of either of those two dudes today.
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Post by: carmachu
spaceelf wrote:To some extent you are confirming my initial point. Although you do not call your friends, you still have to arrange a game. I guess my FLGS is busier than yours, as I do not have trouble finding a game. More exotic games are another story however. The stores that I have frequented over the years have tables that are dedicated to wargaming.
You say that like its a bad thing. We have standing games 2nd friday of every month. More if we make arrangements. And not just GW games.
The reason that I said RPGs are different is that you probably have a larger group of people, who would rarely just happen to be at a FLGS for a game.
Some Stores I know have rotating games, or games that play there. My old one years ago had boards for players looking for players. They are at stores more then you think.
Automatically Appended Next Post: legoburner wrote:
Not yet, they are waiting for their solicitors to give it the all clear.
The fact they have to run it by lawyers already peaks my interest.
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Post by: ArbeitsSchu
Reads as if Mr Davidson forgot he was writing a business email to a client and instead wrote an internet forum flame-post, which will inevitably come back and bite him on his unproffessionall (sic) ass.
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Post by: fullheadofhair
AgeOfEgos wrote:
While I agree that a LGS needs to have draws such as tournaments, etc....in the end some do suffer the free riding effect. If I understood it correctly when I had took the course, that is the very reason why resale price maintenance has been allowed to exist. While I think blaming internet retailers for the doom of LGS is narrow minded...I also think ignoring the effect they have on LGS is equally obtuse. Note this is not specific to Maelstrom as, from their own letter, go out of their way to service the community in the form of tables, tournaments, etc.
No Resale Price Maintenance in the UK unless have an exemption, unless the laws have changed substantially since I moved to the states
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Post by: vorpalhit
I thought a manufacturer would produce an item, sell this item to a supplier at an agreed cost, the job of this supplier is was to sell them and if they don't make profit it's their own fault.
Maelstrom choose to reduce the cost of a unit (at the rate of perceived VAT) in the hope of selling more units. Hoping that the reduced profit per unit is countered by the increased volume.
Maelstrom is an awesome venue, they have a large shop area with space to move about in, compared to a GW that has just enough to walk round on your way to the till. Their tables are well stocked terrain wise (bit too much available for liking but then again I play IG)
I don't see the business sense from BF. your supplier sells lots of units, that's a good thing right? They pay what you want for your goods.
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Post by: Kanluwen
vorpalhit wrote:I thought a manufacturer would produce an item, sell this item to a supplier at an agreed cost, the job of this supplier is was to sell them and if they don't make profit it's their own fault.
Maelstrom choose to reduce the cost of a unit (at the rate of perceived VAT) in the hope of selling more units. Hoping that the reduced profit per unit is countered by the increased volume.
Maelstrom is an awesome venue, they have a large shop area with space to move about in, compared to a GW that has just enough to walk round on your way to the till. Their tables are well stocked terrain wise (bit too much available for liking but then again I play IG)
I don't see the business sense from BF. your supplier sells lots of units, that's a good thing right? They pay what you want for your goods.
The theory, at least when we're talking about GW's original attempt at something to similar was (at least in my understanding) this.
Internet retailers with a tiny 'brick and mortar' storefront, no gaming tables, etc were offering discounts that a FLGS with a brick and mortar storefront that didn't sacrifice a prime location, gaming tables, and the full 'gaming experience' in favor of simply selling things online could not necessarily compete with.
GWUS tried to curtail the internet discounters by setting limitations. Things got all hectic and weird from there, and I can't remember all the details just that a lot of online shops had to give up conveniences like shopping carts, photos, etc to try to 'balance things out' in favor of the FLGSes.
As it is I think the only real thing that Battlefront was attempting to set was a 'discount across the board' setup where online retailers could only go as high, discountwise, as a FLGS/B&M store could.
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Post by: filbert
From a personal perspective, it looks like pretty shabby behaviour by Battlefront and I hope they get their comeuppance. As Maelstrom note, the real loser in all this is the consumer, both in the fact that it hurts the wallet, and in the fact that this potentially could prevent new people buying into the game system. Automatically Appended Next Post: I did look into starting FoW at one point, part inspired by Lego's gallery and blog about his company and part inspired by searching for an alternative to GW hegemony but the thing that put me off the most was that the prices seemed to be just as expensive as GW stuff. If discounters like Maelstrom are forced to keep prices artificially high then that can only act as a barrier to entry.
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Post by: Mr. Burning
filbert wrote:From a personal perspective, it looks like pretty shabby behaviour by Battlefront and I hope they get their comeuppance. As Maelstrom note, the real loser in all this is the consumer, both in the fact that it hurts the wallet, and in the fact that this potentially could prevent new people buying into the game system.
Of course the totally professional approach by both parties would have been to keep correspondence private and to only release some brief press releases, regardless of the contents of Battlefronts' ugly email.
Maelstrom will continue as they always do, and good for them.
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Post by: Earthbeard
Interesting reading - As i suspected all comes down to the t&c's and discount clauses.
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Post by: filbert
Mr. Burning wrote:filbert wrote:From a personal perspective, it looks like pretty shabby behaviour by Battlefront and I hope they get their comeuppance. As Maelstrom note, the real loser in all this is the consumer, both in the fact that it hurts the wallet, and in the fact that this potentially could prevent new people buying into the game system.
Of course the totally professional approach by both parties would have been to keep correspondence private and to only release some brief press releases, regardless of the contents of Battlefronts' ugly email.
Maelstrom will continue as they always do, and good for them.
I don't see anything wrong or unprofessional in Maelstrom's response. Just because they are a business doesn't mean they should be bound an gagged and prevented from releasing the details. To be perfectly frank, I find it refreshing that they have exposed the sort of goings on that are normally behind the scenes.
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Post by: powerslave84
filbert wrote:From a personal perspective, it looks like pretty shabby behaviour by Battlefront and I hope they get their comeuppance. As Maelstrom note, the real loser in all this is the consumer, both in the fact that it hurts the wallet, and in the fact that this potentially could prevent new people buying into the game system.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did look into starting FoW at one point, part inspired by Lego's gallery and blog about his company and part inspired by searching for an alternative to GW hegemony but the thing that put me off the most was that the prices seemed to be just as expensive as GW stuff. If discounters like Maelstrom are forced to keep prices artificially high then that can only act as a barrier to entry.
Honestly I feel FoW is cheaper than GW games. If you plan your army right, you could have 1750 points of just about anything for under $200 US.
Also: http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/downloads/3471_001.pdf States that the reason they were pulled, was because as a web store, they were discounting BF's prices and thus losing BF revenue. It is a sketchy situation, and they definitely could have been more professional about it. Seems they will actually be losing money in the end though. Oh well, I still enjoy their rules.
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Post by: ArbeitsSchu
filbert wrote:Mr. Burning wrote:filbert wrote:From a personal perspective, it looks like pretty shabby behaviour by Battlefront and I hope they get their comeuppance. As Maelstrom note, the real loser in all this is the consumer, both in the fact that it hurts the wallet, and in the fact that this potentially could prevent new people buying into the game system.
Of course the totally professional approach by both parties would have been to keep correspondence private and to only release some brief press releases, regardless of the contents of Battlefronts' ugly email.
Maelstrom will continue as they always do, and good for them.
I don't see anything wrong or unprofessional in Maelstrom's response. Just because they are a business doesn't mean they should be bound an gagged and prevented from releasing the details. To be perfectly frank, I find it refreshing that they have exposed the sort of goings on that are normally behind the scenes.
Seems that given the curt and cursory nature of the Bf "newsflash" on their website, Maelstrom had to do some kind of damage limitation to protect themselves and their reputation, and what better way than to be perfectly open about the nature of the situation?
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Post by: Mr. Burning
filbert wrote:From a personal perspective, it looks like pretty shabby behaviour by Battlefront and I hope they get their comeuppance. As Maelstrom note, the real loser in all this is the consumer, both in the fact that it hurts the wallet, and in the fact that this potentially could prevent new people buying into the game system.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did look into starting FoW at one point, part inspired by Lego's gallery and blog about his company and part inspired by searching for an alternative to GW hegemony but the thing that put me off the most was that the prices seemed to be just as expensive as GW stuff. If discounters like Maelstrom are forced to keep prices artificially high then that can only act as a barrier to entry.
I don't for one minute think that Battlefront are/were trying to price fix, which is highly illegal.
As for artificially high prices, if no one discounted, then would the prices be too high? what is an artificially high price?
Using computer games as an example, if no-one discounted ,would £49.99 for a new release title be too high? Would GW prices be too high. If discounters didn't take it upon themselves to decide what they can sell an item for (as is their right) could you then call GW and BF et al thieving gypsies?
Lets be honest, discounters are not helping the consumer except to gain more business for themselves.
Still, I'll still check out Maelstrom for cheap goods, and I will continue to pick up BF stuff where sold.
4670
Post by: Wehrkind
Mr. Burning wrote:
I don't for one minute think that Battlefront are/were trying to price fix, which is highly illegal.
As for artificially high prices, if no one discounted, then would the prices be too high? what is an artificially high price?
Using computer games as an example, if no-one discounted ,would £49.99 for a new release title be too high? Would GW prices be too high. If discounters didn't take it upon themselves to decide what they can sell an item for (as is their right) could you then call GW and BF et al thieving gypsies?
Lets be honest, discounters are not helping the consumer except to gain more business for themselves.
Still, I'll still check out Maelstrom for cheap goods, and I will continue to pick up BF stuff where sold.
Those are good points. "Artificial" doesn't really mean much of anything since you can't see what the counter factual would be.
On the other hand, discounters are surely helping the consumer and helping themselves, by offering lower prices to us and getting more business for themselves as a reward. That's the whole point of trade. I help them, they help me, and we don't need to care too much about each other otherwise. We don't need them to have high and noble motives; just wanting our business is motive enough
40132
Post by: ArbeitsSchu
Mr. Burning wrote:
Lets be honest, discounters are not helping the consumer except to gain more business for themselves.
I don't mind (as a consumer) being not helped by having access to the goods I desire at a reduced price.
21499
Post by: Mr. Burning
ArbeitsSchu wrote:Mr. Burning wrote:
Lets be honest, discounters are not helping the consumer except to gain more business for themselves.
I don't mind (as a consumer) being not helped by having access to the goods I desire at a reduced price.
Neither do I its great to save £££, i dont care either. I was just putting the thought out there that discounters are not our shining saviours.
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Post by: Holdenstein
Trouble at t'mill indeed. It's all about trying to keep the rest of BF's distribution network happy- probably including those in the antipodes.
I'm pretty meh about the whole thing. there's plenty of other places to get a 10% discount on FoW. Though the airing of dirty laundry in public is never good for any of those involved in the end (see the Chapterhouse debacle if you need any cofirmation of this).
18410
Post by: filbert
Well of course not, they do exist as a business and unless Maelstrom has morphed into some sort of Co-operative, then they exist to turn a profit. But that's not to say it isn't mutually beneficial - I mean they aren't trying to rip people off, on the whole.
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Post by: perplexiti
Well I just read Maelstrom's response, it's a shame it's come to this as I was looking into starting FOW this year.
But with my limited finances, two kids one wage and a mortgage, there's not much left over at the end of the week, Maelstrom's pretty much the only place I can buy from, even living all the way down here in NZ!
So no starting FOW for me for a while unfortunately, I feel this will lose Battlefront more than they will gain.
5269
Post by: lord_blackfang
I'm sorry, I wanted to pick a side, but I just can't bring myself to care. I think there's been so much drama in the hobby lately that I'm all drama'd out.
11029
Post by: Ketara
I found BF's business letters highly unprofessional. You would think the Head of their European division would at least run his correspondence through a spell checker first.
I got the impression from his letter that he basically wants BF to follow in GW's footsteps in terms of setting a certain price range and available discount across the internet, and thought he could intimidate Maelstrom into accepting his new terms. Unfortunately, due to not thinking it through, he left himself wide open for a legal rebuttal from Maelstrom, and was forced legally to acquiesce and fulfill order already made/paid for (and rightly so in my opinion).
His statement of how FoW does not need Maelstrom and therefore does not care due to the expension speed of their company leaves a bitter taste in my mouth though. Its definitely convinced me to avoid BF products in future as a result.
116
Post by: Waaagh_Gonads
Is the PDF link not working for anyone else?
10746
Post by: Corrode
I quite enjoyed the BF guy freezing £20k of orders because of a petty squabble about discounts (which didn't apply to the order already placed as far as I can tell). That sure is some top customer service which persuades me to buy your company's products, jackass.
3725
Post by: derek
powerslave84 wrote:
Also: http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/downloads/3471_001.pdf States that the reason they were pulled, was because as a web store, they were discounting BF's prices and thus losing BF revenue. It is a sketchy situation, and they definitely could have been more professional about it. Seems they will actually be losing money in the end though. Oh well, I still enjoy their rules.
Makes no sense that they would be losing BF revenue if they are paying the appropriate price for the items from BF, which they have been. There is no lost revenue, as the price they pay to BF was always the same. If anything, it would be Maelstrom losing potential revenue (though it's arguable if sales volumes increased) by discounting the product further through a glitch in the voucher code being erroneously applied to Flames of War items. Every discount voucher I've ever received from Maelstrom in the last few years has stated plainly that there is no additional discount on Flames of War items.
Maelstrom has a Brick and Mortar store, they stock a wide variety of usually complete ranges in their store. I'd say that qualifies them for the retailer discount.
8471
Post by: olympia
Here's a pro-tip for Battlefront: you don't have a monopoly on 15mm Second World War miniatures, biatches. Nor do you have an intellectual property bulwark that insulates your high prices from competition, biatches.
7325
Post by: kinghammer
BF gave them 20k(in pounds) in terms, that is crazy! At the end of the day you have to abide by the contract you signed and Maelstrom did not.
Cheers
5478
Post by: Panic
yeah,
I enjoyed maelstroms announcement. First Class.
Also exchange of emails was interesting to read and made the start of my shift at work very enjoyable
So basically they emailed each other for a bit and it was all getting a bit bitchy, but under the radar.
Maelstroms solicitor seemed like a legal heavy weight and probabily made battlefronts solicitors gak themselfs!
BF made a very nasty public termination of all buisness relations.
So I think it's fair enough that maelstrom shows all the dirty washing if that's what they want to do.
I hope BattleFront take the hit and grow up.
I'd hate to see a game that is enjoyed by so many be run into the ground by a bunch of Dickheads.
Panic...
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Post by: notprop
Is their no one in the gaming industry that can write a proper letter?!? I'm so annoyed by yet another show and tell [what should be internal] dispute that it really took some strength of mind on my part to take advantage of that 25% off code. Now if you other vultures could stop buying the stuff I want I would be really happy!
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
Frag! Some people her just want to read into it what pleases them....
@ Corrode
It got frozen because they bought products under B&M-terms but sold them online. If they would just have sold the stuff in their B&M store there would have been no problem. This way they were undercutting even every other online store that bought stuff on the online-terms. BF has to react to such a breach of contract.
@derek
Unfortunately there are at least 20-30 mails on my server that explicitely say that this voucher also applies to FoW stuff and if this is not enough there are several voucher threads on the web that say the same. This is no glitch, this is intentionally.
@olympia
They have no monopoly and they even write in their books that you are allowed and even encouraged to use minis from other companies if they seem better suited to you. Damn far from the evil empire you paint.
All they are doing right now is protecting all other online and B&M stores that abide to the contracts.
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Post by: Corrode
Duncan_Idaho wrote:@ Corrode
It got frozen because they bought products under B&M-terms but sold them online. If they would just have sold the stuff in their B&M store there would have been no problem. This way they were undercutting even every other online store that bought stuff on the online-terms. BF has to react to such a breach of contract.
As far as I can tell from the letter, BF are asserting that Maelstrom do not have a physical store and therefore don't qualify as a B&M retailer. Having been to their top-quality physical store myself, it most certainly does exist, and as far as I can tell they certainly should qualify as a B&M. Obviously none of us are privy to the terms of the contract, which are only vaguely alluded to in the e-mails, but a lot would hinge on the exact language used - whether simply owning a B&M store is enough to qualify for that level of discount, or if one is required to sell products exclusively through the B&M to count. Given that the BF guys traded with Maelstrom for the better part of 5 years and several of them have visited the location I find it hard to believe that they were unaware of Maelstrom's business model until now.
3862
Post by: Duncan_Idaho
It all depends on how much they sold online and how much via the store. I do know of quite some shops that have a B&M- and an online store and they either buy seperately for each or pay according to the terms that befit their main retail branch.
MG seems to see itself above such things and as it looks they got pulled back down to earth.
207
Post by: Balance
notprop wrote:Is their no one in the gaming industry that can write a proper letter?!?
I'm so annoyed by yet another show and tell [what should be internal] dispute that it really took some strength of mind on my part to take advantage of that 25% off code.
Now if you other vultures could stop buying the stuff I want I would be really happy!
I know you're writing a off-the-cuff comment and not a detailed legal missive, but I think you used the wrong form of there/their.
I probably made a mistake in my criticism as well, though.
3725
Post by: derek
Duncan_Idaho wrote:
@derek
Unfortunately there are at least 20-30 mails on my server that explicitely say that this voucher also applies to FoW stuff and if this is not enough there are several voucher threads on the web that say the same. This is no glitch, this is intentionally.
I get that you want to vehemently defend Battlefront as you have done in every reply in this thread, but every voucher I have saved (going back to June of last year, I didn't keep the ones from before then) that is a storewide discount and not on specific items (including the one that BF is having their latest bitch about) mentions it doesn't work on Flames of War. If you have one that explicitly says to use it on Flames of War, I invite you to post the text, and the date you received it.
10746
Post by: Corrode
Duncan_Idaho wrote:It all depends on how much they sold online and how much via the store. I do know of quite some shops that have a B&M- and an online store and they either buy seperately for each or pay according to the terms that befit their main retail branch.
MG seems to see itself above such things and as it looks they got pulled back down to earth.
Given that MG seemed to be in the belief that Battlefront were attempting a bit of (illegal in the UK) price fixing, they were perfectly right to be ignoring such demands.
Also, you're completely wrong about the discount vouchers. Maybe something's been lost in translation but every voucher I've received (about a year and a half's worth now) states that the discount does not apply to FoW items. Here's the exact text from the most recent one:
Maelstrom Games wrote:Please note that this voucher will work on all the items within our webstore, but:
- not on any Flames of War items
35785
Post by: Avatar 720
Also, you're completely wrong about the discount vouchers. Maybe something's been lost in translation but every voucher I've received (about a year and a half's worth now) states that the discount does not apply to FoW items.
Just lurking around and keeping myself updated, but I also haven't recieved a voucher discount e-mail from MG that hasn't specified that it doesn't work on FoW stuff.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Seems to me this is a huge loss for ALL... we as costumers lose the good prices, Maelstrom loses "15%" of their profit and Battlefront
only loses " his biggest retailer in europe"...
And if people think its to protect brick stores guess again... being forced to price fixing is not something any retailer in the EU should be happy about...
Ex GW workers learned their lessons quite well I just hope BF has the fatness to absorb these blows.
18909
Post by: Neffertech
This really feels a lot like there is something else going on under the surface that has little to do with bussiness. This feels personal.
As for the FLGS vs Webstore debate, buy from wherever gives you the best service. I think if you play at your local store you should buy some stuff there, a place to play is a service. However if you don't buy from wherever gives you the best price, or ships the fastest or whatever you as a consumer value most.
I think most Brick and Mortars fail because they are just run badly, have poor locations or just bad luck. Seriously I know a place that for decades has smelled like Pee but has paid the bills solely due to Pokemon, 40k, BF, cheap rent and good fortune. I've also seen amazingly good stores that closed because their rent was a little too high, margins a little too narrow and they hit a bad stretch. Game stores are like resturants, it's a tough industry that takes a lot of hard work and dedication that few people can muster and owner burn out happens a lot. And if you find one you really enjoy you should support it, because it's hard to keep running. Unless you prefer home cooking, then invite friends
3862
Post by: Duncan_Idaho
Sorry, but anyone in the business believing that BF asking shops to only use the account that befits their kind of shop is illegal should rather quickly close down shop since he will quite soon have other institutions breathing down his neck because of his strange understanding of business.
@vouchers
Starting with vouchers from 2009 on they were: BUNNY-SALE, RISE-BEATER, then there was a phase with FoW excluded and it started again in summer 2010 with
YOUR SUMMER SALE VOUCHER
----------------------------------------------------------
Your 15% off UK RRP discount voucher lasts for ten days, ending on Monday 13th of June 2010 at midnight (GMT) and it's a great chance to grab yourself all those superb new releases over the summer - the new Warhammer eighth edition rulebook, the new Hordes and Warmachine books and much more - as well as grab your favourites and try out all the superb new miniatures and hobby products we keep bringing you!
It will work on all the items within our webstore, but:
Apart from the above, the voucher will work on pre-orders and, crucially, you'll still earn Moneyback - although tiered discounts are disabled when using a voucher of course.
Your voucher code is: SUMMERTIME
To use this voucher simply register on the webstore, www.maelstromgames.co.uk (if you haven't already), copy and paste the code into the appropriate field in your basket when you have selected the items you want, press 'REDEEM', and the webstore will do the rest. You are not limited to one purchase and, indeed, we would ask you to recommend us to your friends with this voucher!
Remember though that this voucher is intended for the webstore only - it does not apply to any of our auctions or shop inventory items on eBay.
Happy Ordering!
YOUR EARLY CHRISTMAS VOUCHER
----------------------------------------------------------
Your 15% off UK RRP discount voucher ends on Monday the 11th of October 2010, at midnight (GMT) - so you've ten days to grab yourself a bargain!
It's a great chance to grab yourself all those lovely new ranges we've brought in over the past few months since our expansion as well as all your old favourites! It will work on all the items within our webstore, but:
- not on any Seeds of War items
- not on any Too Fat Lardies items
- not on any Games Workshop Direct items
- not on any event tickets
- and additionally, not on anything within our eBay store.
Apart from the above, the voucher will work on pre-orders and, crucially, you'll still earn Moneyback - although tiered discounts are disabled when using a voucher of course.
Your voucher code is: EARLY-CHRISTMAS
Your voucher code is: 2011-JANUARY
...ends on Monday the 10th of January 2011 at midnight (GMT).
And that was just a quick and dirty going through my server and got confirmed by people that have ordered FoW-stuff with these vouchers.
3725
Post by: derek
I'm missing where any of those explicitly mention that they work on Flames of War.
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Post by: Corrode
Duncan_Idaho wrote:Sorry, but anyone in the business believing that BF asking shops to only use the account that befits their kind of shop is illegal should rather quickly close down shop since he will quite soon have other institutions breathing down his neck because of his strange understanding of business.
And since we have an incomplete understanding of what kind of shop BF considers Maelstrom to be (since they are both a physical retail store and a webstore, which BF were surely well aware of what with staff having visited the physical location) accusing MG of bad faith in this case is a bit of a stretch. It's not like the Head of Europe woke up one day and realised Maelstrom also had a website they sold stuff from.
I'll admit to having been wrong on the voucher thing - so many were not applicable to FoW that the Christmas and VAT ones being applicable slipped past me.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Duncan_Idaho wrote:Sorry, but anyone in the business believing that BF asking shops to only use the account that befits their kind of shop is illegal should rather quickly close down shop since he will quite soon have other institutions breathing down his neck because of his strange understanding of business.
Excuse me? Maelstrom has a brick and mortar store and also webstore... and since you are flipping the illegal remark you should rather look at BF attempts to fix prices all over the board... some countries allow this but not in EU and UK. Yet BF shows muscle to the small stores and they close their eyes to this... Glad someone just got the nerve to make this public.
As for the Discounts in chrismas from ROB ( maelstrom owner) on TGN
"What you’re missing is that Point 1 proves that we did not state “Flames of War products were not included from the voucher run”, i.e., the voucher code was applicable to FoW products and thus we were not deceiving anyone.
We always list which items are not included in our voucher runs. If it’s not listed, the voucher code applies to those items.
"
Point 1 was on PDF
"Point 1:
BF- I am dissapointed to see that once again you have included Battlefront on your January discount voucher scheme. Writing that
it doesn’t include it on the voucher, yet allowing it through your webstore is lip service at best.
MAEL- This is entirely untrue, as a view of our voucher e-mail can attest to"
Hope its more clear to you Duncan_Idaho  As you say " Frag! Some people her just want to read into it what pleases them.... "
As a finish sentence Companies like BF that seem to be bullying the stores into accepting the non x discounts policies should be dropped in all EU by all EU distributors... well but we know people close their eyes in order to gain some desirable product. MAEL didnt closed their eyes to their RIGHTS and BF closed their accounts... This is what I see from the prespective Maelstrom provided to us.
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
Folks, please read the thread in full, I don`t want to repeat the stuff if written in earlier posts in every post again....
@vouchers
there were many more vouchers since summer that when used on the voucher slot gave you a discount on FoW-stuff. As it looks and as they admit there was a time they did FoW-exclude from vouchers.
@Navarro
A company can ask you to not sell below a certain price depending on your business and there are volumes of legal decissions by court in the universities of nearly every european country to proove this. Heck we even had a guy here being banned buy court from buying stuff as he undercut everyone though he had signed a contract with the company in question to not go below a certain price. The court ruled that if it is to protect all other shops and makes sure that not one big seller floors every competition in the market it is a good thing. It would have been illegal if the company selling the stuff would have been sold cheaper by the company itself and they would have asked the shops not going below this price.
BF is only asking shops to choose the package that fits their main line of business best and every shop has agreed to do this (I do have the according documents here on my desk). It only says that as a B&M shop you get a better discount than a online shop, cause the recognize that B&M shops have higher costs due to the shop.
In the end it all depends on whether MG used the B&M discount and sold it via their online shop. If they did this it is a clear breaking of contract and them stating that they ignored it because they thaught it illegal makes the matter only worse for them. Every lawyer would groan hearing his client saying such a thing. Thats one of the first things you learn not to do wen instructed by a good lawyer.
MG might be a good thing for countries with no shops, but in other countries with a healthy shop-landscape even shop-chains were no longer able to compete with the prizes offered by MG. BF did e.g lower prices in Germany and rising them in the UK so there are only a few cent between the SRP in both countries. And MG should not have been able to go below a certain price without loosing money if they would have used the online-discount for shops. Either they want to kill competition by loosing money from some time or they are using the B-M discount, which would them ensure quite some profit. I would rather say the second one is closer to the truth. I would say thet even now with the 25% voucher they are making quite a profit.
Navarro, I am working in this business for quite some time and I know a lot of what is going on behind the curtains and I have seen quite a company pulling similar stunts. MG is not the first and will not be the last to do such a thing. There is a slim chance that they are innocent, but nearly everything points in a different direction and after many years in the business you develop a sixth sense for such things that seldom is wrong.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Duncan_Idaho wrote:Navarro, I am working in this business for quite some time and I know a lot of what is going on behind the curtains and I have seen quite a company pulling similar stunts. MG is not the first and will not be the last to do such a thing. There is a slim chance that they are innocent, but nearly everything points in a different direction and after many years in the business you develop a sixth sense for such things that seldom is wrong.
Duncan pardon my humour but your sixth sense was not very sharp about Rackham ehehehe
Silly jokes aside  I respect your opinion and understand what you are saying I do share your idea that theres more stuff behind the curtains... We just heard one side of this history so far so we need to hear the other partie involved to make a more accurate guess of whats happening here. ( lets see if they are so upfront as Mael was on this)
From the prespective layed out by Mael alone I get the vibes things got way to personall at some point... From my limited scope of EU trade laws I dont know if any contract of any sort that hints to some kind of price fixing is considered valid on EU soil... you cant consider a contract valid if the clauses there go against the general laws of your territory... or Im I wrong?
But we have lawyers on board and I bet they will help us understanding these matters a bit better.
" BF is only asking shops to choose the package that fits their main line of business best and every shop has agreed to do this (I do have the according documents here on my desk). It only says that as a B&M shop you get a better discount than a online shop, cause the recognize that B&M shops have higher costs due to the shop. "
No mention to X limit on discounts? Can a shop sell stuff the price they want to ( as long its not bellow the price they bought the goods)?
Mind we do not know if Mael has the same docs/ agrements taht you have on your table... Being the biggest EU retail may somehow constitute a reason to have diferent agreements...
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Post by: Foxtale
I'm not so sure I understand. If market forces are allowing Maelstrom to sell at a low price and still make profit (I'd say economy of scale, since their profit must be minimal), then isn't that the most efficient market? Price floors lead to excess in supply, and a good deal of dead weight loss. There's little risk of a Maelstrom monopoly since they're one of many discount retailers as well as the manufacturer. Even in an oligopoly their only power lies in restricting supply and raising prices, which is against the entire point of this debate.
Are you saying it's killing FLGSs? Because FLGSs find other forms of revenue (Magic the Gathering, usually) or they fail. Just like any business.
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
The issue is not about the discounts MG gave (There are enough shops out there that have similar discounts and they are living in peace with BF).
It is about the discounts MG got as a shop. They were using a discount intended for B&M for online trading. In the end this allows them to grow faster than every other online retailer that follows the contract. Competition between shops is good, but this got beyond a point where all have equal chances to compete.
And since MG is stating that they are more or less the biggest shop for FoW worldwide I have to wonder how much of their FoW-trading was done over the B&M shop and how much online.
From what they told us over the course of the last few years their online shop outpaces the B&M shop in sales by far. So they should have either used seperate accounts with seperate rates for both branches of their business or applied the one for online retailers to all of their business. They choose to do neither but use the one for B&M for all their business as they state in the PDF.
@Foxtale
If it were only market forces there would be not much of a problem, but as it looks MG used to start the race with a starting block some yards in front of the others by using a dealers discount that was intended for shops with store costs for online business.
Don't you wonder that no other shop is complainig right now about BF breathing down their neck?
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Post by: carmachu
Mr. Burning wrote:
Neither do I its great to save £££, i dont care either. I was just putting the thought out there that discounters are not our shining saviours.
Nor are they the evil that GW or battlefront or you makes them out to be, a detriment to the hobby.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Duncan_Idaho wrote:The issue is not about the discounts MG gave (There are enough shops out there that have similar discounts and they are living in peace with BF).
I know you said it was not about the discounts yet Im curious to know if theres a mention to that on your papers?
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
Well, they still can hurt the hobby. We have mega-shops like Media Markt or Saturn that really hurt the electronics market. It is recovering right now, but still far from healthy and once they floored most of the competition they raised prices, even advertising the SRP as a reduced price. Oh, and bacause of their financial situation it is easy for them to sue others and push them out of the market just by sueing them even without a good reason, just because tehy have the money to sue them over and over again until the smaller shop can`t afford it.
MG is right now in a position where they can turn into such a company and them using an unfair adavantage while everyone else is playing by the rules does not bode well.
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Post by: spaceelf
The situation with Battlefront and Maelstrom is is really quite sad. Battlefront's letters were unprofessional to say the least. Maelstrom does not seem to be honouring its agreement with Battlefront, whether it be by selling on too great a discount or by buying at the brick and mortar rate and selling tons of stuff online. Obviously both companies are hurt by this situation.
Wehrkind wrote:
On the other hand, discounters are surely helping the consumer and helping themselves, by offering lower prices to us and getting more business for themselves as a reward. That's the whole point of trade. I help them, they help me, and we don't need to care too much about each other otherwise. We don't need them to have high and noble motives; just wanting our business is motive enough 
I think that discounters really do hurt consumers. Here is a small example that ties into the GW makers of the famous Space Marines thread and the Galaxy Gobbo thread. Galaxy Gobbo discounted the StormRaven. So lots of people buy StormRavens. Suddenly, shops are full of Space Marine players with StormRavens. The lack of variety that this produces is not fun. But it gets worse. GW says, hey look Space Marines sell well, lets make more Marines. This results in even less variety.
Discounters hurt consumers on other levels as well. The quest for cheaper and cheaper merchandise has forced manufacturers to move their production facilities overseas. This results in fewer locals jobs. Thus the consumer may find himself without a job.
I think that you and I just have different points of view on economics. You take a capitalist approach and I take a more socialist one.
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
On the other hand MG wants to show itself in the best light possible, so we do not know what happened before those published excerpts.
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Post by: Ulver
spaceelf wrote:I think that discounters really do hurt consumers. Here is a small example that ties into the GW makers of the famous Space Marines thread and the Galaxy Gobbo thread. Galaxy Gobbo discounted the StormRaven. So lots of people buy StormRavens. Suddenly, shops are full of Space Marine players with StormRavens. The lack of variety that this produces is not fun. But it gets worse. GW says, hey look Space Marines sell well, lets make more Marines. This results in even less variety.
That is not a result of online discounters, it's completely unrelated.
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Post by: The Plastic Surgeon
Duncan_Idaho wrote:).
It is about the discounts MG got as a shop. They were using a discount intended for B&M for online trading. In the end this allows them to grow faster than every other online retailer that follows the contract. Competition between shops is good, but this got beyond a point where all have equal chances to compete.
And since MG is stating that they are more or less the biggest shop for FoW worldwide I have to wonder how much of their FoW-trading was done over the B&M shop and how much online.
From what they told us over the course of the last few years their online shop outpaces the B&M shop in sales by far. So they should have either used seperate accounts with seperate rates for both branches of their business or applied the one for online retailers to all of their business. They choose to do neither but use the one for B&M for all their business as they state in the PDF.
?
I fail to see the distinction. MG has a B&M operation, a very large one that does an excellent job of promoting the hobby as a whole. Ironically, the strength of their online business is what gives them the luxury of such a good B&M offering to compliment it. As Rob said, their model is open for all to see and emulate, but they choose not to. B&Ms have a very small catchment area in terms of prospective customers as it is a niche hobby and only by going online can they hope to enlarge that area and capture more sales. Before we had the internet, it was mail order. It is simply easier and quicker but the fundamentals are the same, the customer need never step into the store and the net margin improves as you lower the ratio between fixed and variable costs by selling to more in the same space. What BF is doing is in effect punishing MG for being a successful and innovative business that has helped them grow in the last several years.
stupid stupid stupid
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Post by: NAVARRO
Duncan_Idaho wrote:Well, they still can hurt the hobby. We have mega-shops like Media Markt or Saturn that really hurt the electronics market. It is recovering right now, but still far from healthy and once they floored most of the competition they raised prices, even advertising the SRP as a reduced price. Oh, and bacause of their financial situation it is easy for them to sue others and push them out of the market just by sueing them even without a good reason, just because tehy have the money to sue them over and over again until the smaller shop can`t afford it.
MG is right now in a position where they can turn into such a company and them using an unfair adavantage while everyone else is playing by the rules does not bode well.
Thats making a lot of assumptions... besides Mael is in this position for some years now, what keept them from behaving like those shaddy examples you provided?
Something tells me your prespective/opinion is not as neutral as it should be
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
I said they can turn into such a company, not that they already have done it.
@TPS
Well others did choose to do it not since this would have been a vialotion of the contract they have signed. So you are telling me that MG should go unpunished for breaking a contract and that this is a clever way of doing business?
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Post by: NAVARRO
Duncan_Idaho wrote:I said they can turn into such a company, not that they already have done it.
@TPS
Well others did choose to do it not since this would have been a vialotion of the contract they have signed. So you are telling me that MG should go unpunished for breaking a contract and that this is a clever way of doing business?
You seem to have all the facts on your desk, unfortunatly I dont have the contract and agreements of BF With Mael on my table and I cannot say even if they respect the EU general trade laws...
Yes you said Maels was NOW in a position to behave like those shaddy entreprises... all I told you was - why do you assume that they will do those negative things since they have been in that position for some years now and done nothing?...
I'm inclined and opened to diferent prespectives of what happened since we only got Mael communication so far... but you seem to have all the facts and your mind already made up against them and talk about punishment... odd mate really odd.
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Post by: Sheck2
Duncan_Idaho wrote:The issue is not about the discounts MG gave (There are enough shops out there that have similar discounts and they are living in peace with BF).
It is about the discounts MG got as a shop. They were using a discount intended for B&M for online trading. In the end this allows them to grow faster than every other online retailer that follows the contract. Competition between shops is good, but this got beyond a point where all have equal chances to compete.
Yes the issue is MRP and the contractual arrangements regarding it. However, BF's positon is inconsistent. I KNOW of several other shops that HAVE and DO sell BF for less than a 10% discount...in som cases as great as 40% off (because I have bought product from them during these sales). They do not do it consistenly, but as 'special' sales each year...which is similar/same as Mael. And these shops have both B&M and an online presence (one is maybe the largest in the US).
So why is BF coming down on Mael. for doing the exact same thing?
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Post by: Wehrkind
spaceelf wrote:Wehrkind wrote:
On the other hand, discounters are surely helping the consumer and helping themselves, by offering lower prices to us and getting more business for themselves as a reward. That's the whole point of trade. I help them, they help me, and we don't need to care too much about each other otherwise. We don't need them to have high and noble motives; just wanting our business is motive enough 
I think that discounters really do hurt consumers. Here is a small example that ties into the GW makers of the famous Space Marines thread and the Galaxy Gobbo thread. Galaxy Gobbo discounted the StormRaven. So lots of people buy StormRavens. Suddenly, shops are full of Space Marine players with StormRavens. The lack of variety that this produces is not fun. But it gets worse. GW says, hey look Space Marines sell well, lets make more Marines. This results in even less variety.
Discounters hurt consumers on other levels as well. The quest for cheaper and cheaper merchandise has forced manufacturers to move their production facilities overseas. This results in fewer locals jobs. Thus the consumer may find himself without a job.
I think that you and I just have different points of view on economics. You take a capitalist approach and I take a more socialist one.
So, let me get this straight.
1: A lot of Storm Ravens are sold to people who want them for a lower price than they could otherwise get.
2: Therefor there are more space marine players (unstated assumption: lots of people who bought stormravens were not already SM players.) (unstated assumption: the storm raven is somehow cool enough that is prompts people who either do not play or play another army to play space marines.)
3: Unstated assumption: There are not just more players, but also a much larger % of SM.
4: GW sees such a spike in SM demand as a result makes more SM (unstated assumption: people don't actually want more SM, despite their buying patterns)
Let me restate this:
1:You are worried that people will buy more of what they want and think is cool.
2: Even though this will enlarge the total pool of players, this is bad because they are playing armies that you don't think are cool.
And I do somewhat agree with you, you are approaching things from a socialist approach, which is to say that any outcome that you disagree with should be stopped.
I think people should be allowed to purchase and sell as they see fit. You think people should not be allowed to sell storm ravens at a discount lest they upset the delicate balance of Space Marine to other armies that you think is best.
I find your (eventual) honesty refreshing!
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Post by: Sheck2
spaceelf wrote:
I think that discounters really do hurt consumers.
Discounters hurt consumers on other levels as well. The quest for cheaper and cheaper merchandise has forced manufacturers to move their production facilities overseas. This results in fewer locals jobs. Thus the consumer may find himself without a job.
I think that you and I just have different points of view on economics. You take a capitalist approach and I take a more socialist one.
Humm...you do realize that discounters have enabled the lower classes to afford better things and dramatically increase their standand of living? Discounters hurt the elite not the populus as they encourage competition and prevent inequatible advantages. You are arguing that the railroad barons and dictators should be kept empowered. Discounting is not dumping.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
There is a difference between a discounter and walmart. A discounter does not force production facilities overseas. A discounter sells an item purchased directly from the manufacturer (sometimes a wholesaler, although this is rare) at less than the list price.
Walmart on the other hand, TELLS the manufacturer what it will pay per unit, and what it will sell the item for. If the manufacturer wants to sell its product through walmart, it has to agree to walmarts terms, which usually means relocating to an area w/ cheaper labor, etc. so that it can retain a profit margin.
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Post by: Wehrkind
chaos0xomega wrote:There is a difference between a discounter and walmart. A discounter does not force production facilities overseas. A discounter sells an item purchased directly from the manufacturer (sometimes a wholesaler, although this is rare) at less than the list price.
Walmart on the other hand, TELLS the manufacturer what it will pay per unit, and what it will sell the item for. If the manufacturer wants to sell its product through walmart, it has to agree to walmarts terms, which usually means relocating to an area w/ cheaper labor, etc. so that it can retain a profit margin.
So... what's the problem? People get more stuff at lower prices, and if they don't like Wal Mart they can always shop somewhere else, like Target, or the mall or where ever.
Also you must realize that no one gets to set prices in a vacuum. ( GW and BF would do well to remember this as well.) Everyone tells the stores they buy from what they will pay per unit, in so far is if the price is higher they won't pay it. Likewise every shop tells you what they will sell the product for, albeit more explicitly since they are trying to get you to buy from them and customers generally are not interested in shopping around and endlessly negotiating.
And for those of you born after 1990, off shoring has been popular for a long time. Comparative advantage is one of those eternal things. It was Hong Kong when I was young, then China and Mexico, now Malaysia and Indonesia etc. Ever since transportation started getting cheap there has always been someone in the world with nothing better to do than make t-shirts for 50 cents a day or whatnot. Wal Mart is no more to blame than the US School system, which, despite itself, has managed ensure that most Americans have better things to do than make T-shirts.
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
Yes the issue is MRP and the contractual arrangements regarding it. However, BF's positon is inconsistent. I KNOW of several other shops that HAVE and DO sell BF for less than a 10% discount...in som cases as great as 40% off (because I have bought product from them during these sales). They do not do it consistenly, but as 'special' sales each year...which is similar/same as Mael. And these shops have both B&M and an online presence (one is maybe the largest in the US).
So why is BF coming down on Mael. for doing the exact same thing?
One last time: This is not about the discount MG gives YOU. It is about the price MG pays when ordering stuff from BF.
For simplicity sake (real numbers are slightly different) let`s assume B&M shops get products at 40% from the SRP and online shops get products at 30% from the SRP. Let`s say the 10% are what the shop cost the B&M shop. If everybody plays by the rules all should be happy since the shop the offers the best service wins over the costumer. As it looks MG bought stuff for their B&M shop but sold them via the online store. In the end they have a 10% head-start in comparison to ALL other shops. Them being already the biggest fish in the pond this is an uphill battle for everyone else.
Everybody else was happy with the 30% but MG decided that they need not care for the rules of the pond and BF had to show them their place. It was probably this kind of decision they had to make: Do we keep MG in the pond and get quite some revenue but loose substantial revenue from everybody else or do we keep everybody else in the pond and kick MG out.
@Navarro
Well, Saturn and Media Markt were nice big shops in the past until they decided not to play by the rules everybody else was respecting. And MG seems to be heading down the road with their attitude.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
Meh, anyway, who else took advantage of the clearance sale? I dropped about 150 bucks (after a 55 dollar savings) on a brand spanking new FJ army!
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Post by: Cruentus
I find it interesting that when GW did this years and years ago, limiting online retailers to 20% discounts, that everyone vilified GW, while saying that retailers, both B&M and online should be able to offer whatever discount.
Now we have BF limiting discounts to 10%, and some people vilify the B&M/online store for offering a steeper discount. Odd.
I do know that in both cases, you are beholden to the contract you signed in order to receive said product from the company, and that breaking that is in violation of the contract. No argument there.
And as for Maelstrom being able to get a B&M rate, that's because they are a B&M. Many B&M's do online business as well. So what do you want to do, tier the wholesale price based on how large of an online presence you have?
Instead, you have the great and beneficent GW and now BF looking out for the B&M retailer by limiting those evil online discounters, when they're still getting the same amount of money either way *rolls eyes*
*edited for spelling
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
For HEAVENS SAKE! This is not BF limiting discounts!
Nearly everyone owning a shop had no problems until now when deciding wich rate to take and as it seem BF neither. Most shops either run two systems for online and B&M or decide for the rate that fits them best depending on which branch brings in the majority of cash.
Why does noone else have a problem with this and is even offering sometimes better discounts (just check Wayland or Empire) than MG and MG out of a sudden not? BF is not going after any other online store or combined store, only after MG.
Did it ever occur to you that BF has better things to do than ruining its reputation? BF is very business-orientated (which is a good thing in a market where most companies drown because the bosses ar way too much hobbyists), why the Frag woud they do something that goes against evrything that is good for business?
Normally there is only one reason: By not acting they would loose way more money/retailers than by acting.
With GW it was a completely different story, them owning competing stores that got way better rates and from time to time were "accidentaly" delievered way earlier with goods than FLGS.
Sidenote: More and more shops in this corner of the world were reducing their FoW-inventory and when asked they nearly always answered: Most people come in, have a look and play on the tables but never buy or even brag at how much it was cheaper buying it from MG. And this is not from a liitle badly run shop but from a big chain with 20-30 shop (each shop offering 300-600 squarefeet of gaming area) that get quite a good revenue from every other line they carry. And if even such chains have problems competing with MG than maybe this tells you how big of a problem this let`s say 10% (they get from using B&M-rates for online sales) advantage hurts the market. BF gets the revenue from MG but looses all the other revenue or kicks MG and has a short slump in sales but in the end has more places that promote FoW.
23451
Post by: Sheck2
Duncan_Idaho wrote:Yes the issue is MRP and the contractual arrangements regarding it. However, BF's positon is inconsistent. I KNOW of several other shops that HAVE and DO sell BF for less than a 10% discount...in som cases as great as 40% off (because I have bought product from them during these sales). They do not do it consistenly, but as 'special' sales each year...which is similar/same as Mael. And these shops have both B&M and an online presence (one is maybe the largest in the US).
So why is BF coming down on Mael. for doing the exact same thing?
One last time: This is not about the discount MG gives YOU. It is about the price MG pays when ordering stuff from BF.
For simplicity sake (real numbers are slightly different) let`s assume B&M shops get products at 40% from the SRP and online shops get products at 30% from the SRP. Let`s say the 10% are what the shop cost the B&M shop. If everybody plays by the rules all should be happy since the shop the offers the best service wins over the costumer. As it looks MG bought stuff for their B&M shop but sold them via the online store. In the end they have a 10% head-start in comparison to ALL other shops. Them being already the biggest fish in the pond this is an uphill battle for everyone else.
Everybody else was happy with the 30% but MG decided that they need not care for the rules of the pond and BF had to show them their place. It was probably this kind of decision they had to make: Do we keep MG in the pond and get quite some revenue but loose substantial revenue from everybody else or do we keep everybody else in the pond and kick MG out.
Duncan. It's all about what we get charged as we are the customer. The MRP sets the ceiling for the price and therefore the baseline for all of the wholesaler tiers. BF can legally differenciate the wholesaler prices (off of MRP) based on levels of service i.e. we can legally charge you a different rate without discrimination because you are incurring 'x' cost that we are not. You act as if BF is in a cost-plus relationship with its retailers. It's not. The issue is what consumers get charged because it would appear that Mael has fufilled its channel requirements and... BF specifically mentions the MRP discounting as the reason for the problem and threatens action regarding it.
I am not sure what you are used to but suppliers here cannot sell the same product at two different prices to the same customer simply based on how the customer plans to use it. That is price discrimination.
The
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote:There is a difference between a discounter and walmart. A discounter does not force production facilities overseas. A discounter sells an item purchased directly from the manufacturer (sometimes a wholesaler, although this is rare) at less than the list price.
Walmart on the other hand, TELLS the manufacturer what it will pay per unit, and what it will sell the item for. If the manufacturer wants to sell its product through walmart, it has to agree to walmarts terms, which usually means relocating to an area w/ cheaper labor, etc. so that it can retain a profit margin.
Have you ever done business with Walmart as another business? Yes they TELL you what they will pay for your product and they TELL you how they got that price - it is the LOWEST price in the marketplace EXCEPT the government...that's their strategy and competitive advantage. They also TELL you that all returns are on you and you have to accept them back at no charge because that's how they treat the customer. They TELL you how much you need to produce and have available for them and its hell if you violate any of those contractual obligations. But they NEVER FORCE you to do business with them. Everyone wants the volume they can offer and then complians because it comes with serious obligations. I have had several clients who have almost gone out busines because they over-estimated their ability to meet that level of demand and customer service level. NO - it does NOT mean outsourcing - it means you need to have a top-notch operation to fufill those orders...some businesses chose to meet that by moving to a lower cost environment, others step up and improve their operations.
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Post by: pixelpusher
There's quite a big problem for manufacturers if their resellers won't order from them because "Seller X sells your products so much cheaper than we can. We just cannot get the stuff out of the door." It hurts the customers & it hurts the manufacturer. That's why there's a "price control" from the manufacturer / distributor side.
Wal-Mart is a whole different beast than Maelstrom. Now I'm not making a living in the USA, but I'd bet that if there's a huge Wal-Mart-ish chain of stores supporting your products you could most liklely afford having your stuff sold exclusively in that chain and not care about the other smaller retailers since the huge chain can get your stuff out of the door easier than anyone else.
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Post by: Aldramelech
Duncan_Idaho wrote:Yes the issue is MRP and the contractual arrangements regarding it. However, BF's positon is inconsistent. I KNOW of several other shops that HAVE and DO sell BF for less than a 10% discount...in som cases as great as 40% off (because I have bought product from them during these sales). They do not do it consistenly, but as 'special' sales each year...which is similar/same as Mael. And these shops have both B&M and an online presence (one is maybe the largest in the US).
So why is BF coming down on Mael. for doing the exact same thing?
One last time: This is not about the discount MG gives YOU. It is about the price MG pays when ordering stuff from BF.
And that is straight unadulterated bollocks!
BF have been doing business with MG for FIVE YEARS. Do you really believe your man at BF woke up in January and suddenly realized "OMG MG sell things on the internet"
Yeah right!
The whole thing stinks. This is how I read between the lines of BF's letter to MG:
We told you not to discount our stuff and you ignored us so now you can piss off if you think we're going to sell to you at 40% off because you wont do as your told.
BF knew damn well what was going on and turned a blind eye to it because they were raking it in but now they're having a hissy fit because they cant control it.
I was pissed off about this before but now I know BF are actually breaking the law by doing this I'm resolved never to buy from BF again.
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Post by: deleted20250424
Duncan_Idaho wrote:
One last time: This is not about the discount MG gives YOU. It is about the price MG pays when ordering stuff from BF.
For simplicity sake (real numbers are slightly different) let`s assume B&M shops get products at 40% from the SRP and online shops get products at 30% from the SRP. Let`s say the 10% are what the shop cost the B&M shop. If everybody plays by the rules all should be happy since the shop the offers the best service wins over the costumer. As it looks MG bought stuff for their B&M shop but sold them via the online store. In the end they have a 10% head-start in comparison to ALL other shops. Them being already the biggest fish in the pond this is an uphill battle for everyone else.
Battlefront will not sell to a store that is web/online only.
The last time I contacted a distributor for Battlefront, I was informed you MUST have a B&M store to get items from them.
Therefore, your entire arguement is invalid.
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Post by: BrookM
Maelstrom is a brick and mortar store as well.
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Post by: deleted20250424
In the end it doesn't matter because.....
Manufacturer sells product for X to dealer/shop/distributor.
Dealer/Shop/Distributor sells product for X + 5.
If a dealer/shop/distributor decides to sell product for X + 2 instead to sell more items.....
No one should care. Least of all the Manufacturer as they already made what they consider 100% of the money they need.
If you sell at X + 5 and can't compete, then you better sell at X + 2 to compete.
It will all level out sooner or later when everyone agrees that X +2 is the best and most competitive price.
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Post by: General Hobbs
The real problem is that gamers are cheap.
3725
Post by: derek
TalonZahn wrote:In the end it doesn't matter because.....
Manufacturer sells product for X to dealer/shop/distributor.
Dealer/Shop/Distributor sells product for X + 5.
If a dealer/shop/distributor decides to sell product for X + 2 instead to sell more items.....
No one should care. Least of all the Manufacturer as they already made what they consider 100% of the money they need.
If you sell at X + 5 and can't compete, then you better sell at X + 2 to compete.
It will all level out sooner or later when everyone agrees that X +2 is the best and most competitive price.
I demand to know where you learned such Wizardry, sir.
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Post by: Wehrkind
pixelpusher wrote:There's quite a big problem for manufacturers if their resellers won't order from them because "Seller X sells your products so much cheaper than we can. We just cannot get the stuff out of the door." It hurts the customers & it hurts the manufacturer. That's why there's a "price control" from the manufacturer / distributor side.
Wal-Mart is a whole different beast than Maelstrom. Now I'm not making a living in the USA, but I'd bet that if there's a huge Wal-Mart-ish chain of stores supporting your products you could most liklely afford having your stuff sold exclusively in that chain and not care about the other smaller retailers since the huge chain can get your stuff out of the door easier than anyone else.
Actually, your examples rather undercut your point. WalMart sells nothing that other people don't sell (other than their own Great Value branded stuff). Listerine, cat litter, Cheerios, everything they sell you can drive down the road to another store and buy for a bit more. The pattern is not "Wal Mart or everyone else" but rather "Wal Mart AND everyone else."
It goes back to my earlier points: everyone wants a different balance of value, between price, service and whatever else. As an example, within about 2-3 miles of where my wife and I used to work (really big company) there is a Giant (food store), a Super Walmart, Wegmans (fancy food store) and Target (fancy Wal Mart). Food wise they sell all the same products, with different bits here and there (Wegmans has really nice produce for instance.) My wife and I generally shop at Wal-Mart and Giant for produce, and almost NEVER see anyone from work. We go to Wegman's to get some steak and can't help but run into 3-4 people we know from work. Wal Mart is cheaper in ALL cases, but Giant has better ham shanks. Wegmans is a bit better in steak and olive bar, but that's just about it. That doesn't keep them from being PACKED every day after work.
Now, one can argue that gaming is a smaller market and so there is less room for varying levels of service, fancy and price, and thus this isn't too relevant. If that's the case, you really can't use Wal Mart as an example either, particularly as they DON'T SELL WARGAMES. (Unless you count Hero Scape or whatever that is...)
And seriously, when did "More people buying and playing the game" become a bad thing? If the Warstore or Maelstrom drop prices 10% and bring in 5% more players, isn't that good for the hobby as a whole? More players means it is easier to find a game, easier to play different armies, and means more people getting their friends into the game, creating a positive feedback loop. Magic:tG isn't exactly a cheap game, but it isn't too expensive to have 3-4 half decent decks (not tourney level mind you), probably achievable for the price of one box of Tac Marines or whatever. I suspect that had a LOT to do with getting new people into the game, when a player could very easily have the resources into introduce someone new to a full game. As it is, if I want to teach my wife WHFB I have to borrow an army.
Wargaming isn't ever going to become "Being part of the Porsche club"; no matter how premium the items, more expensive is going to lessen demand and shrink the player base. Maybe there are enough vet's out there who need every new model, enough so that higher prices will outweigh loss of volume and keep the manufactures and FLGS doing alright. GW and now BF seem to think that. I know a lot more people that are cutting back on hobby spending, and a lot that decided not to get into it because some other hobby is less expensive, that seem to deny that trend.
Punishing your vendors that cut costs on their side in order to provide your ultimate customers with lower prices, whether to support your own online store or prop up independent stores that can't manage to compete, punishes your customers ultimately, and drives them away.
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Post by: spaceelf
Wehrkind wrote:
So, let me get this straight.
Translation: Let me distort your position
Wehrkind wrote:
1: A lot of Storm Ravens are sold to people who want them for a lower price than they could otherwise get.
2: Therefor there are more space marine players (unstated assumption: lots of people who bought stormravens were not already SM players.) (unstated assumption: the storm raven is somehow cool enough that is prompts people who either do not play or play another army to play space marines.)
The unstated assumptions that you wrote are of your own construction. I made no such assumptions. The first part of my statement was that lots of people bought Storm Ravens because they were discounted. (One reason that retailers discount products is to increase demand in a product. Sure we may want xenos stuff, but if SM stuff is cheap we buy that instead.) I then stated that the shops would be full of Space Marine players with Ravens. This does not mean that lots of people who bought the Ravens were not already Marine players. Many of them may already have some Marines sitting in the closet from when they bought a starter set. Every 40k starter set has Marines in it. It is logical to assume that many of the people who are buying the Ravens will play with them. People with xenos and Marine armies may bring in their Marine army because they got the Raven. Obviously your second unstated assumption does not follow.
Wehrkind wrote:
3: Unstated assumption: There are not just more players, but also a much larger % of SM.
Well I happen to think that there are a larger % of SM players, but that is not an assumption upon which I made by statements.
Wehrkind wrote:
4: GW sees such a spike in SM demand as a result makes more SM (unstated assumption: people don't actually want more SM, despite their buying patterns)
As I stated above, consumer's buying habits are influenced by discounts. So the consumer may want xenos stuff and SM stuff. However, with the discount incentive, and the low cost of building a SM army thanks to the multitude of starter sets and battle forces they buy more marines.
Wehrkind wrote:
Let me restate this:
1:You are worried that people will buy more of what they want and think is cool.
2: Even though this will enlarge the total pool of players, this is bad because they are playing armies that you don't think are cool.
I have no concerns about people buying what they think is cool. I am concerned that by purchasing stuff on discount they hurt FLGS, and decrease the variety of models in the market place. I think that discounters will shrink the pool of total gamers because FLGS are the primary place where people are introduced to the hobby. And for the record I never said that Marines are not cool. However, I think that it is rather dull if everyone plays the same army.
Sheck2 wrote:
Humm...you do realize that discounters have enabled the lower classes to afford better things and dramatically increase their standand of living? Discounters hurt the elite not the populus as they encourage competition and prevent inequatible advantages. You are arguing that the railroad barons and dictators should be kept empowered. Discounting is not dumping.
I do not share your opinion of discounters. They sell cheap products which in the short run appear to increase the standard of living. However, the products are cheap because they are produced overseas with cheap labor. In many cases they are not even comparable to vintage products. I think that if you compared the current price of locally produced products versus what they cost 50 years ago you would find that the new stuff is very expensive. Secondly, by putting so much work overseas there are fewer jobs at home and thus the standard of living falls even further.
The elite make a killing off of discounters, who do you think owns them. If a manufacturer sets the price of a product at retail, it prevents giant retailers from dominating the marketplace. Thus a lowerclass person can open up a hobby shop and compete with a big mail order company.
In closing, and getting back to the discussion of Battlefront vs Maelstrom, it is quite clear from this thread that there is a difference of opinion in the community and that people feel passionate about their position. Thus, I can understand the content of the letter by Battlefront. However, it does not excuse it, and the letter was terribly unprofessional.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
Wargaming isn't ever going to become "Being part of the Porsche club"; no matter how premium the items, more expensive is going to lessen demand and shrink the player base. Maybe there are enough vet's out there who need every new model, enough so that higher prices will outweigh loss of volume and keep the manufactures and FLGS doing alright. GW and now BF seem to think that. I know a lot more people that are cutting back on hobby spending, and a lot that decided not to get into it because some other hobby is less expensive, that seem to deny that trend.
God I hope gaming never becomes such a club. A lot of gamers already have elitist attitudes to begin with. Giving them that level of status/prestige would make me commit acts of murder I think...
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Post by: spaceelf
Wehrkind wrote:
pixelpusher wrote:There's quite a big problem for manufacturers if their resellers won't order from them because "Seller X sells your products so much cheaper than we can. We just cannot get the stuff out of the door." It hurts the customers & it hurts the manufacturer. That's why there's a "price control" from the manufacturer / distributor side.
Wal-Mart is a whole different beast than Maelstrom. Now I'm not making a living in the USA, but I'd bet that if there's a huge Wal-Mart-ish chain of stores supporting your products you could most liklely afford having your stuff sold exclusively in that chain and not care about the other smaller retailers since the huge chain can get your stuff out of the door easier than anyone else.
Actually, your examples rather undercut your point. WalMart sells nothing that other people don't sell (other than their own Great Value branded stuff). Listerine, cat litter, Cheerios, everything they sell you can drive down the road to another store and buy for a bit more. The pattern is not "Wal Mart or everyone else" but rather "Wal Mart AND everyone else."
Wal Mart sells all kinds of stuff that no one else sells. They have exclusives of all kinds including Star Wars toys. I think that they even got a big name blue jean co. to make them cheap jeans.
Wehrkind wrote:
And seriously, when did "More people buying and playing the game" become a bad thing? If the Warstore or Maelstrom drop prices 10% and bring in 5% more players, isn't that good for the hobby as a whole?
Manufacturers seem to think that it is not. They believe that the increase in NEW players based on discounts is lower than the increase in NEW players from FLGS with retail prices. You can start someone in Blood Bowl for $50 retail. You can also start 40k kill teams cheap.
Wehrkind wrote:
Wargaming isn't ever going to become "Being part of the Porsche club"; no matter how premium the items, more expensive is going to lessen demand and shrink the player base. Maybe there are enough vet's out there who need every new model, enough so that higher prices will outweigh loss of volume and keep the manufactures and FLGS doing alright. GW and now BF seem to think that. I know a lot more people that are cutting back on hobby spending, and a lot that decided not to get into it because some other hobby is less expensive, that seem to deny that trend.
I agree with you here. However, I think that the lion's share of the price charged by GW is essentially a premium for their IP. Historicals are much cheaper and have much lower sales volume.
Wehrkind wrote:
Punishing your vendors that cut costs on their side in order to provide your ultimate customers with lower prices, whether to support your own online store or prop up independent stores that can't manage to compete, punishes your customers ultimately, and drives them away.
The problem is that in the USA FLGS are an essential part of the industry. Sadly many gamers will buy stuff online and then play in the stores, only to have the store go out of business. Thus manufacturers prop them up.
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Post by: derek
spaceelf wrote:
Manufacturers seem to think that it is not. They believe that the increase in NEW players based on discounts is lower than the increase in NEW players from FLGS with retail prices. You can start someone in Blood Bowl for $50 retail. You can also start 40k kill teams cheap.
Sadly GW did away with Kill Teams, and I doubt many introductory players are going to go back and purchase the 4th edition book. As far as I know there is no "legal" online source for kill team rules. Blood Bowl you have a point on, but GW isn't really pouring out support for the system or any of the specialist games anymore.
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Post by: Grot 6
Putting Walmart into this conversation is like putting a shark in your goldfish bowel.
I didn't read Idaho's information in this matter in that exchange between those two, but from what I can see, there are more then we as outsiders are being privy to.
On the matter of that discount being a bad thing, I think someones getting too far in the reeds to make that sort of an assumption. It wasn't a matter of what you posted, there seems to be more to it then we have information of, and I am seeing the conversation diverging into completely alien topic on this matter.
If it was as clear cut as Duncan would have you it would be a different matter, but from what we see it comes out of left field as "I see your doing something that P123's me off again, even after I told you ...."then we as outsiders are left to think that we are pulling for the little guy and have to take sides in this matter.
I for one see a couple of D bags handling a business matter like they are the only game in town. GW already did this in the middle of the ninties, and it ultimatly cost the whole community from gamers, to FLGS's, to themselves in terms of profits and operating costs, and ultimatly in terms of thier reputation.
Feth them all. If they go out of buisness, someone else wil pick up the pieces and move forward. Especially if this is thier way of doing business.
Ultimatly some of you cats out there seem to think that what they are doing is ok...
Hey, if thats the way you think, keep on keeping on, it doesn't work like that in the real world and players are ultimatly the ones who are going to get the shaft in the end.
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Post by: spaceelf
derek wrote:spaceelf wrote:
Manufacturers seem to think that it is not. They believe that the increase in NEW players based on discounts is lower than the increase in NEW players from FLGS with retail prices. You can start someone in Blood Bowl for $50 retail. You can also start 40k kill teams cheap.
Sadly GW did away with Kill Teams, and I doubt many introductory players are going to go back and purchase the 4th edition book. As far as I know there is no "legal" online source for kill team rules. Blood Bowl you have a point on, but GW isn't really pouring out support for the system or any of the specialist games anymore.
There are Kill Team rules in the Battle Missions book.
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Post by: ArbeitsSchu
So Maelstrom are the only retailer with a 40% discount? Maybe BF should think harder about what sort of discounts it hands out before throwing a paddy about how retailers use them.
What about if a store (on-line or otherwise) wants to use BF products as a loss-leader or some similar promotion? BOGOF and the like? Are these also verboten?
Still seems to me that its just GW mentality in a different company, and frankly nothing excuses the sheer rudeness of that email from a supposed proffessional. (sic).
Maybe if BF didn't demand a 10% cutoff for discounts, lots of other stores could compete (perhaps by offering such deals as I mention up there ^.) thus solving any issue with Maelstrom having an unfair price advantage?
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Post by: pixelpusher
Wehrkind wrote:pixelpusher wrote:There's quite a big problem for manufacturers if their resellers won't order from them because "Seller X sells your products so much cheaper than we can. We just cannot get the stuff out of the door." It hurts the customers & it hurts the manufacturer. That's why there's a "price control" from the manufacturer / distributor side.
Wal-Mart is a whole different beast than Maelstrom. Now I'm not making a living in the USA, but I'd bet that if there's a huge Wal-Mart-ish chain of stores supporting your products you could most liklely afford having your stuff sold exclusively in that chain and not care about the other smaller retailers since the huge chain can get your stuff out of the door easier than anyone else.
Actually, your examples rather undercut your point. WalMart sells nothing that other people don't sell (other than their own Great Value branded stuff). Listerine, cat litter, Cheerios, everything they sell you can drive down the road to another store and buy for a bit more. The pattern is not "Wal Mart or everyone else" but rather "Wal Mart AND everyone else."
It goes back to my earlier points: everyone wants a different balance of value, between price, service and whatever else. As an example, within about 2-3 miles of where my wife and I used to work (really big company) there is a Giant (food store), a Super Walmart, Wegmans (fancy food store) and Target (fancy Wal Mart). Food wise they sell all the same products, with different bits here and there (Wegmans has really nice produce for instance.) My wife and I generally shop at Wal-Mart and Giant for produce, and almost NEVER see anyone from work. We go to Wegman's to get some steak and can't help but run into 3-4 people we know from work. Wal Mart is cheaper in ALL cases, but Giant has better ham shanks. Wegmans is a bit better in steak and olive bar, but that's just about it. That doesn't keep them from being PACKED every day after work.
Now, one can argue that gaming is a smaller market and so there is less room for varying levels of service, fancy and price, and thus this isn't too relevant. If that's the case, you really can't use Wal Mart as an example either, particularly as they DON'T SELL WARGAMES. (Unless you count Hero Scape or whatever that is...)
And seriously, when did "More people buying and playing the game" become a bad thing? If the Warstore or Maelstrom drop prices 10% and bring in 5% more players, isn't that good for the hobby as a whole? More players means it is easier to find a game, easier to play different armies, and means more people getting their friends into the game, creating a positive feedback loop. Magic:tG isn't exactly a cheap game, but it isn't too expensive to have 3-4 half decent decks (not tourney level mind you), probably achievable for the price of one box of Tac Marines or whatever. I suspect that had a LOT to do with getting new people into the game, when a player could very easily have the resources into introduce someone new to a full game. As it is, if I want to teach my wife WHFB I have to borrow an army.
Wargaming isn't ever going to become "Being part of the Porsche club"; no matter how premium the items, more expensive is going to lessen demand and shrink the player base. Maybe there are enough vet's out there who need every new model, enough so that higher prices will outweigh loss of volume and keep the manufactures and FLGS doing alright. GW and now BF seem to think that. I know a lot more people that are cutting back on hobby spending, and a lot that decided not to get into it because some other hobby is less expensive, that seem to deny that trend.
Punishing your vendors that cut costs on their side in order to provide your ultimate customers with lower prices, whether to support your own online store or prop up independent stores that can't manage to compete, punishes your customers ultimately, and drives them away.
Let's see how this goes language barrier and all.
I don't compare this to Walmart, other people did, and I tried to say exactly what you say. Maelstrom isn't Wal-Mart. But there is still that problem with "huge actor selling <brand> cheaper than anyone else can". Which in turn leads to Huge Actor (let's use that as an example instead of WalMart) selling more products and slowly have other retailers selling less and less of the same brand.
Shopping on the internet is also not the same as shopping in person after work. There are tons of other factors in play when you shop online compared to shopping in person. Low prices is one of the key factors and way higher on the list than great service/nicer steaks. That's why price comparison sites are plentiful. As well as the argument "You get it so cheap so why complain about shipping/service/etc?" -.-
Low prices does not lead to more people buying you brand of products though (not comparable to food products, different beast compared to hobby items). Saturation is much more profitable But you cannot get saturation if only one or a few sells your product, even though its super cheap in that store.
In this case I believe that it's much better for the manufacturer if they have a presence in every store (online and retail), with pretty much comparable prices, than just having their products cheap in a few stores. Not everyone in the EU shops at Maelstrom even though they're a big actor here (and in Australia!).
I hope it makes some kind of sense. It always feels awkward trying to make a point in my third language.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Do Maelstrom have a permanent 40% discount?
Because they are using vouchers I assume that it is a one off per season type of deal.
Do B&M stores buy from the manufacturer at a lower cost?
If not then I am not syre what the problem is
Book publishers had to drop the RRP a few years back. Not sure entirely what the difference is here.
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Post by: Alpharius
Grot 6 wrote:Putting Walmart into this conversation is like putting a shark in your goldfish bowel.
Yeah, I'm guessing that wouldn't end well for the goldfish...
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Post by: Compel
Has anyone else reading through this whole mess had a sudden urge to buy things from Maelstrom?
And no, I'm not referring to the Flames of War items.
Part of me thinks that this whole mess has resulted from someone typoing "Flames of War" with "Seeds of War" one too many times....
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Post by: pixelpusher
Every retailer has a discount when buying from the manufacturer or a distributor. At least if it works the same as it does in the "tactical nylon and personal equipment"-business. Coupled together with some other terms regarding how much discount you can give, where you can sell the products etc.
7375
Post by: BrookM
Alpharius wrote:Grot 6 wrote:Putting Walmart into this conversation is like putting a shark in your goldfish bowel.
Yeah, I'm guessing that wouldn't end well for the goldfish...
Unless its a big fething gold fish. We might need an even bigger boat for this one.
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Post by: deleted20250424
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Do Maelstrom have a permanent 40% discount?
When buying from a distibutor (sometimes it's the actual manufacturer) all retailers receive a discount. A retailer will enter a contract with a distributor/manufacturer that sets this discount for a period of time.
As I stated earlier, when I was looking into setting up my own store, the average discount was 43% to 47%. That only changes by manufacturer. So all product from a manufacturer would be say 47% off.
So that means for example:
Suggested Retail on a Product is $10.00 on the retailers shelf. 47% off of $10.00 is $4.70 making the retailers cost $5.30 from the distributor/manufacturer. Which means any amount I sell that item for above the $5.30 is profit to me. If I want to sell 1 item at 10% off (to make $3.70 profit off that one item) or 1 item at 25% off (to make $2.20 profit off that one item) and then hope people buy twice as much, that's my business. It just means I need to sell more. Are you more likely to buy 1 tank at 10% off or 2 tanks at 25% off? Retailers are banking that you buy 2 beacuse they will make more money selling 2 at 25% off than 1 at 10% off.
Which is why I don't understand how BF can pitch a fit with any discount MG wants to give. If they rely on volumn sales to cover their deep discounts, that's on them, not BF. BF already got their money as they decided that they got what they needed to get when they sold their items to MG at their price.
3725
Post by: derek
spaceelf wrote:derek wrote:spaceelf wrote:
Manufacturers seem to think that it is not. They believe that the increase in NEW players based on discounts is lower than the increase in NEW players from FLGS with retail prices. You can start someone in Blood Bowl for $50 retail. You can also start 40k kill teams cheap.
Sadly GW did away with Kill Teams, and I doubt many introductory players are going to go back and purchase the 4th edition book. As far as I know there is no "legal" online source for kill team rules. Blood Bowl you have a point on, but GW isn't really pouring out support for the system or any of the specialist games anymore.
There are Kill Team rules in the Battle Missions book.
Huh. Did not know that, good to know then.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
That seems to suggest the equivelent cost price of goods for the retailer whereas I was thinking about retail discounts.
Obviously a retailer is not going to buy Space Knights from Delicat Inc at full Gnomes Workhouse retail value. Else the business will be over very shortly.
But I think we are on the same wavelength regarding the outcome.
I am not eally grasping what has supposed to have been done wrong, since I assume that a B&M store will be buying at for example 45% of the retali value just the same as an online store.
I appreciate the argument about stock capacity and overheads. But since I can walk into a FLGS and order stuff they don't have in stock or phone them and order to pick up, it surely doesn't make a lot of difference?
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Post by: deleted20250424
Most stock is held at distributors. Don't forget, they tack on their profit too. They aren't going to store and ship it for free to the retailer.
So the actual wholesale cost from a place like GW, is even less than 43%-47% off of retail in most cases. That could mean something like a $50 tank is $50 on the shelf to you, $26.50 to the store selling it, and $15.00 to the distributor from the manufacturer. So, as long the manufacturer gets his $15.00 from the distributor, why does he care if the store sells it for $50 or $30?
The reason Manufacturers get pissed off at Online Only retailers is, they have no overhead compared to a B&M store. Can offer big discounts and operate a thinner margin.
B&M has rent, more employees (wages/insurance), more utilities, pays more taxes (state/local/fed), etc... Online Stores could be some dude at home with a garage and a computer.
Battlefront, last I checked, requires you to have a B&M store in order to obtain their product.
Just look at our new friend Galaxy Gobbo, or the other popular place Groupon. They advertise a great discount if a certain amount of people buy an item. Say, 35% off Baneblades, if 100 are bought. Why 100? That's what the retailer determined would generate him enough profit to allow that deep of a discount. How many Storm Ravens would you buy if the discount was 20%? What if it was 30%? Did your purchase number go up? Mine would.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Have some business studies qualifications, albeit a long while ago now, and some experience in retail. ie I get the basics, just a bit puzzled by some of the specifics of this case.
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Post by: deleted20250424
That's my confusion.
BF got what they wanted from MG when that transaction occured.
Why do they care what MG does with their prices?
26
Post by: carmachu
spaceelf wrote:The problem is that in the USA FLGS are an essential part of the industry. Sadly many gamers will buy stuff online and then play in the stores, only to have the store go out of business. Thus manufacturers prop them up.
No they're not. Not even close. For many of us FLGS never have, nor never will be an essential part of the industry.
If you need to prop something up, obviously they arent essential.
11820
Post by: WUWU
TalonZahn wrote:That's my confusion.
BF got what they wanted from MG when that transaction occured.
Why do they care what MG does with their prices?
Because MG discounts are probably hurting other retailers. For example, it's great if MG buys 10k a month worth of product, but if their prices are preventing ten other retailers from moving their usual 2k a month purchases, it's actually hurting Battlefront.
40132
Post by: ArbeitsSchu
WUWU wrote:TalonZahn wrote:That's my confusion.
BF got what they wanted from MG when that transaction occured.
Why do they care what MG does with their prices?
Because MG discounts are probably hurting other retailers. For example, it's great if MG buys 10k a month worth of product, but if their prices are preventing ten other retailers from moving their usual 2k a month purchases, it's actually hurting Battlefront.
And if BF let other retailers use various "discount" modes available to the rest of the commercial world, then it would still be a level playing field.
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Post by: deleted20250424
WUWU wrote:
Because MG discounts are probably hurting other retailers. For example, it's great if MG buys 10k a month worth of product, but if their prices are preventing ten other retailers from moving their usual 2k a month purchases, it's actually hurting Battlefront.
That's a Strawman at best. ArbeitsSchu is correct.
The market will settle itself to an acceptable resale value over time. Once everyone realizes that a certain percent off of retail is the limit, they will all settle on that limit.
Go to EBay for examples of this. The EBay stores are all heavily discounted, yet magically all around the same price.
I wonder how that happens?
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Post by: Wehrkind
pixelpusher wrote:Let's see how this goes language barrier and all.
I don't compare this to Walmart, other people did, and I tried to say exactly what you say. Maelstrom isn't Wal-Mart. But there is still that problem with "huge actor selling <brand> cheaper than anyone else can". Which in turn leads to Huge Actor (let's use that as an example instead of WalMart) selling more products and slowly have other retailers selling less and less of the same brand.
Shopping on the internet is also not the same as shopping in person after work. There are tons of other factors in play when you shop online compared to shopping in person. Low prices is one of the key factors and way higher on the list than great service/nicer steaks. That's why price comparison sites are plentiful. As well as the argument "You get it so cheap so why complain about shipping/service/etc?" -.-
Low prices does not lead to more people buying you brand of products though (not comparable to food products, different beast compared to hobby items). Saturation is much more profitable But you cannot get saturation if only one or a few sells your product, even though its super cheap in that store.
In this case I believe that it's much better for the manufacturer if they have a presence in every store (online and retail), with pretty much comparable prices, than just having their products cheap in a few stores. Not everyone in the EU shops at Maelstrom even though they're a big actor here (and in Australia!).
I hope it makes some kind of sense. It always feels awkward trying to make a point in my third language. 
Don't worry, you are making your point very well! Much better than many native speakers manage too, though I suspect that when the logic is sound the rest comes along a bit easier
I think though that your scenario would benefit from considering "Ok, then what?" So say Huge Actor Store (HAS) has an internet site and a B&M store. Maelstrom has both, and the Warstore has both, and so far as I know those are the big HAS types in the market. They probably move more product than most brick and mortar stores, almost certainly. In your scenario that results in fewer FLGS type stores and such, though with more or less the same amount of product being sold, correct?
Ok, then what? Who fills the niche left by the now lacking FLGS? Clubs or internet sites for finding games? HMGS type organizations? Those all exist currently. What about the HAS opening up additional locations? Perhaps after some of the more marginal FLGS stores fold, there will be space for a new store that can be more profitable and offer better services. Mike's store seemed to do this, with two Showcase locations. You still get saturation, both of game play and product sales, just different sources. After all, LOTS of people play Catan, Magic or whatever and there are no stores specifically for that.
Also, I don't know that I would agree that there are many differences between shopping online vs in a store. Just in my personal experience I know that I don't do business with stores that have poor service, particularly if they are online (harder to show up and press point after all). Likewise a store that has good selection and is easy to shop at is important in both cases. I know I got trained pretty well to not bother with some of the local stores up this way for any sort of large army purchase since their inventory is often anemic. Still, for spot purchases or periodic lust buys of stuff in stock (very rare since they don't stock more exotic manufacturers :( )
And I don't know too many people who don't jump on bad service when it occurs
I also don't know that low prices don't lead to people buying more of your product. I can see that the commodity model doesn't really apply, but more disposable income generally means more spending on such categories of stuff. If I am planning out some hobby spending, and have 120$ to blow, it is getting spent, whether on 4 boxes of IG or 5 (or a tank, or some lust model etc.) True I might buy a book or a movie instead, but if I have more play money I am going to spend more money on playing. Whether it is a second army, or some cool toys that I might experiment with in the list, if I have some extra cash I can spend more.
More importantly, it makes it easier for new people to get into the hobby. Wargaming is expensive, with 40k having what, a 200$ jump in fee if you don't play SM or Orks and need a rule book, codex and 4 squads retail? Emperor save you if you play Sisters or IG. Importantly though, GW makes EXACTLY the same money if I buy from the FLGS at full retail or the Warstore at 20% off.
Which leads me to my last point: GW and probably BF don't set retail prices to help the FLGS. From most of the owners I have spoken with, they couldn't care less. GW sets their prices to protect they profit margins of the GW stores and website. Consider why it must be that GW stores charge the same for their product as a FLGS that gets it from a distributor who gets it from GW. GW makes an extremely large profit off products bought directly from them, which is why they don't want you purchasing online, and make the FLGS jump through hoops for various price rates etc. I can't blame them; before the internet having your own stores made a lot of sense, and changing the business model can be rough.
Now, I don't know if BF has their own stores or whatever, so I might not be speaking to them. And if they want to put down rules about what their customers (stores) can charge, that is their business. I just think it is foolish, and does very little good for their bottom line. What REALLY gets me though is when they try to claim that making me pay more for their product than someone wants to sell it to me for is somehow GOOD for me, well that makes me kind of angry. It is crap like that what makes me think I should really polish my armor and start going to SCA practice on a regular basis again. :( Automatically Appended Next Post: TalonZahn wrote:WUWU wrote:
Because MG discounts are probably hurting other retailers. For example, it's great if MG buys 10k a month worth of product, but if their prices are preventing ten other retailers from moving their usual 2k a month purchases, it's actually hurting Battlefront.
That's a Strawman at best. ArbeitsSchu is correct.
The market will settle itself to an acceptable resale value over time. Once everyone realizes that a certain percent off of retail is the limit, they will all settle on that limit.
Go to EBay for examples of this. The EBay stores are all heavily discounted, yet magically all around the same price.
I wonder how that happens?
Well put.
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Post by: Foxtale
Duncan_Idaho wrote:It is about the discounts MG got as a shop. They were using a discount intended for B&M for online trading. In the end this allows them to grow faster than every other online retailer that follows the contract. Competition between shops is good, but this got beyond a point where all have equal chances to compete.
Ah, thanks Duncan. That explains it.
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Post by: WUWU
TalonZahn wrote:WUWU wrote:
Because MG discounts are probably hurting other retailers. For example, it's great if MG buys 10k a month worth of product, but if their prices are preventing ten other retailers from moving their usual 2k a month purchases, it's actually hurting Battlefront.
That's a Strawman at best. ArbeitsSchu is correct.
The market will settle itself to an acceptable resale value over time. Once everyone realizes that a certain percent off of retail is the limit, they will all settle on that limit.
Go to EBay for examples of this. The EBay stores are all heavily discounted, yet magically all around the same price.
I wonder how that happens?
No, it isn't a straw man at all, because I was directly answering the question I quoted. It was not a critique on either company or their policies.. The internet sure loves throwing around the ol' "logical fallacy" left and right nowadays, whether they know what they are talking about or not.
Frankly, I think both companies are in the wrong here, and I wont be patronizing either in the future.
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Post by: Ulver
ArbeitsSchu wrote:WUWU wrote:TalonZahn wrote:That's my confusion.
BF got what they wanted from MG when that transaction occured.
Why do they care what MG does with their prices?
Because MG discounts are probably hurting other retailers. For example, it's great if MG buys 10k a month worth of product, but if their prices are preventing ten other retailers from moving their usual 2k a month purchases, it's actually hurting Battlefront.
And if BF let other retailers use various "discount" modes available to the rest of the commercial world, then it would still be a level playing field.
TalonZahn wrote:WUWU wrote:
Because MG discounts are probably hurting other retailers. For example, it's great if MG buys 10k a month worth of product, but if their prices are preventing ten other retailers from moving their usual 2k a month purchases, it's actually hurting Battlefront.
That's a Strawman at best. ArbeitsSchu is correct.
The market will settle itself to an acceptable resale value over time. Once everyone realizes that a certain percent off of retail is the limit, they will all settle on that limit.
Go to EBay for examples of this. The EBay stores are all heavily discounted, yet magically all around the same price.
I wonder how that happens?
If only things were as black and white as that. You're making a massive assumption that every retailer has exactly the same business model and associated costs which is quite simply not true. It's already been asserted that Maelstrom are a large operation which for a start is going to give them economy of scale. A small independent LGS is going to have higher per unit costs on pretty much everything, from rent to heating to staff wages. Factor in that BF are selling their product to MG for less than what they're selling to smaller stores and you come up with a big difference in what is a profitable mark up for MG and for smaller LGSs (e.g. MG can turn a profit with a £2 markup on a £6 product, whereas a smaller store has to put on a £2.75 markup on the same product that costs them £6.30).
To piggyback on the Wal Mart metaphor, why can Asda/Wal Mart sell a can of Heinz beans for 40p when my local cornershop sells it for 65p and still make less money than Asda/Wal Mart?
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Post by: NAVARRO
Lets face it the internet is here stronger then ever in our lives and as much as people want to controll it its not going to happen anytime soon... Same applies to internet based sales... Its a revolution to the traditional model of driving to store browse stuff fill your shopping cart pack your car and drive home... busy people try to save money and time and just spend some minutes doing all that online cheaper and faster.
Will the traditional commerce die? Nope but only the ones that give you a added value and good service will have a slim chance... In our hobby its even less complex... You can buy diferent miniatures ranges from hundreds of manufacturers in no time and your brick store only carries a hand full of the more popular ranges... THe distintion of store and club needs to be more clear because you dont need local stores if you have clubs.
If I were to rely on the rare stores here I would only collect GW or fow... I would not be in this hobby anymore... so yeah the value of a Brick store that doesnt add anything to your reality is overrated in my personal prespective.
On this matter, sure some manufacturers want to limit the freedom of internet sales... the problem is they can only limit THEIR products and are opening a door for people to leave a look elsewere.
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Post by: Sheck2
TalonZahn wrote:
Which is why I don't understand how BF can pitch a fit with any discount MG wants to give. If they rely on volumn sales to cover their deep discounts, that's on them, not BF. BF already got their money as they decided that they got what they needed to get when they sold their items to MG at their price.
Talon...I dis-agree with what BF did but I understand why they want to maintain a price point by controling how much their distributors sell their products for. They need to protect their channels - 'someone' can dump (discount and sell at unprofitable prices) to eliminate competition hoping to the control the market afterward (assuming the dumper survives). Good distribution contracts require the manufacturer to take action, of some sort, to prevent that i.e. since you (the mfg) control supply it is easier for you to stop dumpers than me (distributor). Dumping often destroys markets and hurts consumers.
There is strong incentive for high-price good manufacturers to maintain that their product's price points...if I remember a few years ago Dooney and Burke was actually buying their 'used' handbags off of eBay to control the supply and maintain a higher price point overall.
Also I had ordered BF from Mael and, per their policy, it was shipped 'free'. That saved me another $4 in shipping to the US. So I know we have been discussing MRP, but that is a complimentary discount that has the same affect as offering more than 10% off. That is esspecially true when the pound went down...I ordered from Mael becasue the overall cost was typically 10%-15% less than Warstore let alone versus a LGS.
My 2 cents...Since BF seems to allow other distributors to do similar things it is shutting Mael down for...I suspect this is they are trying to eliminate an 'over-influencial' distributor in a certain market. This could be good for us (consumers) because Mael now has strong incentive to find and sell substitute products - this will not bankrupt BF but will increase our purchasing power. IMO it is a dumb move on BF's part unless Mael was dumping.
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Post by: Cruentus
Sheck2 wrote:
Also I had ordered BF from Mael and, per their policy, it was shipped 'free'. That saved me another $4 in shipping to the US. So I know we have been discussing MRP, but that is a complimentary discount that has the same affect as offering more than 10% off. That is esspecially true when the pound went down...I ordered from Mael becasue the overall cost was typically 10%-15% less than Warstore let alone versus a LGS.
While this is true in some instances, I've found Mael's prices to be mostly a couple of bucks less than I could get at the warstore here in the US. Maybe on some items, at the right time, you can save more (and I know for those in Australia/NZ its way better all the time). However, when ordering, you still need to deal with the credit card 3+% charge for foreign currency transaction, and any other fees that the cc companies want to tack on. That cuts into the 'savings' of ordering from overseas.
Further, how much of an impact does Mael have worldwide? Are they anywhere close to being the 'biggest and only' purveyor of any minis on the net? I know a lot of people who don't buy online, or if they do from select vendors, and would never order overseas. So they're stuck with US vendors.
Mael is brought up on Dakka quite a bit, but they're only one vendor of many that sell BF stuff. I doubt think their activities actually would cause BF that much grief, or cause LGSs to go out of business (although they might be violating their contract with BF, but that's another issue).
Frankly, this incident caused me to sign up for the Old Glory Army for my FOW armies (just starting), where I'll get 40% off Command Decision stuff, and a tank/halftrack will cost me $6 rather than $12 from BF. I'll still use Warstore primarily, and Mael every now and again...
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Post by: deleted20250424
Ulver, I already addressed your points. Go back and read.
WUWU, your argument is a strawman.
BF got what BF wanted to get from the retailers. It doesn't hurt them at all. If anyone got hurt it *might* be the smaller stores you reference.
If the smaller store stops carrying BF as a result of MG's actions, there is a slight chance BF might lose a tiny amount in the short term, but another store will come along and replace them. However, that's the life of the free market. Stores come and go all the time.
Compete or GTFO.
The reason Wal Mart can sell a can of beans for 40 cents and the Mom & Pop store can't is because Wal Mart can dictate a better price from the distributor as they buy 10,000 cans of beans and the other store buys 20. It doesn't work like that in the Hobby world. MG doesn't dictate to BF what they will pay based of MG's volumn of sales. BF tells everyone what they want and you're either in or out.
I can see I'm pissing uphill here, so I won't continue to rage against the dying light.
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Post by: Wehrkind
NAVARRO wrote:Lets face it the internet is here stronger then ever in our lives and as much as people want to controll it its not going to happen anytime soon... Same applies to internet based sales... Its a revolution to the traditional model of driving to store browse stuff fill your shopping cart pack your car and drive home... busy people try to save money and time and just spend some minutes doing all that online cheaper and faster.
Will the traditional commerce die? Nope but only the ones that give you a added value and good service will have a slim chance... In our hobby its even less complex... You can buy diferent miniatures ranges from hundreds of manufacturers in no time and your brick store only carries a hand full of the more popular ranges... THe distintion of store and club needs to be more clear because you dont need local stores if you have clubs.
If I were to rely on the rare stores here I would only collect GW or fow... I would not be in this hobby anymore... so yeah the value of a Brick store that doesnt add anything to your reality is overrated in my personal prespective.
On this matter, sure some manufacturers want to limit the freedom of internet sales... the problem is they can only limit THEIR products and are opening a door for people to leave a look elsewere.
Excellent points. I don't know why so many small niche manufacturers seem to think the internet is bad for them. For some reason they always seem to think that a larger market reach is bad, having new customers finding their stuff is bad, and/or having people figure out the cheapest way to serve their ultimate customers is bad. I guess you really can't say BF and GW are alone in this though, as many larger companies can't seem to wrap their heads around how the internet works. Like Borders with their web site that had the same prices as the store. "All the price, none of the instant gratification!" Of course, large companies are usually not the ones who manage to be on the cutting edge of things, so I am not surprised.
I guess part of the problem is just getting your stuff out there. I mean, there are many EU companies for minis I would never even have heard of if it wasn't for Cool Mini or Not's store, as even the Warstore doesn't import them. It seems to me small mini-companies would be banging down their door trying to get their products featured on the sites of big online stores, even as special order products. Hopefully the current situation is just the industry going through growing pains to learn the new ways of doing things, and 3-4 years down the road we will all be getting great prices on all sorts of awesome models.
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Post by: Ozymandias
Maybe this thread should be moved to Dakka Discussions. Don't see any more news here atm.
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Post by: Wehrkind
Probably a good idea.
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Post by: Foxtale
WUWU wrote:Frankly, I think both companies are in the wrong here, and I wont be patronizing either in the future.
Sadly, in our consumer world, by refusing to patronize either you are not harming the companies (well maybe minimally). Instead, you are merely hurting your own pocket as you will be spending more on miniatures than the rest of us.
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Post by: severedblue
TalonZahn wrote:If I want to sell 1 item at 10% off (to make $3.70 profit off that one item) or 1 item at 25% off (to make $2.20 profit off that one item) and then hope people buy twice as much, that's my business. It just means I need to sell more.
First I don't agree with BF's mode of doing business and how they've acted in this instance.
At the same time I can understand why they've done it. For two reasons:
1. Wargames can be perceived as a small market. If one buys from Maelstrom and not their FLGS, then it could put the FLGS out of business, hence they would complain to the manufacturer, BF. It does amount to price fixing to cut supply
2. Selling goods below costs can be perceived to devalue the goods; customers may not be used to paying the higher price hence will only buy at the lower price
both of them are spurious and involve gouging the customer. Then again I'm from Australia where we are overcharged 40% more for GW product. Maelstrom is the way of the future; you can't keep the world small enough.
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Post by: insaniak
severedblue wrote: If one buys from Maelstrom and not their FLGS, then it could put the FLGS out of business,
And if one buys from this FLGS and not that FLGS, the same thing could happen. That's sort of how the retail industry works. Telling one store that they can't sell your product because it might cause other stores to not sell as much is nonsense. It's on par with the old Quartermaster's joke about not being able to issue you with the last hat, because then he won't have one when someone needs one.
Frankly, Maelstrom would appear to be proof positive that discounting, internet-based retailing and providing a gaming venue can all work hand in hand. It would be nice to see more businesses following suit.
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Post by: severedblue
insaniak wrote:And if one buys from this FLGS and not that FLGS, the same thing could happen. That's sort of how the retail industry works. Telling one store that they can't sell your product because it might cause other stores to not sell as much is nonsense. It's on par with the old Quartermaster's joke about not being able to issue you with the last hat, because then he won't have one when someone needs one.
Recently two big book chains, Angus and Robertson and Borders Australia, went into administration. The reason cited was both high tariffs on these book sellers, high prices and having to pay for large retail frontage for people to test-read books. As an Australian you'd know
They are competing with Internet UK book stores that charge 40% less with no shipping.
It's the same with GW miniatures in Australia... how can the local FLGS compete if they are charging 40% more than Maelstrom on sale, and Malestrom doesn't charge shipping? They can't.
The playing field isn't level once you factor in the Internet. It's good for the customer because I've bought more miniatures now than I would have if it cost 40% more. I've just bought my quota of Eldar from England instead of the local FLGS. And I can't visit Maelstorm as an FLGS.
I'm sure if enough FLGS call BF and have a cry BF will have to do something about it. Better to throw Maelstrom under a bus than to lose all its other distributors, I'm sure they've reasoned.
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Post by: brettz123
Alpharius wrote:Grot 6 wrote:Putting Walmart into this conversation is like putting a shark in your goldfish bowel.
Yeah, I'm guessing that wouldn't end well for the goldfish...
I was more worried about the bowl......
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Post by: insaniak
severedblue wrote:It's the same with GW miniatures in Australia... how can the local FLGS compete if they are charging 40% more than Maelstrom on sale, and Malestrom doesn't charge shipping? They can't.
That's debateable... but also not Maelstrom's fault. It's the fault of GW, for deciding to price their product 40% higher than most of the rest of the world.
But my point was that local game stores can compete. They just have to make up the shortfall somewhere else (if they want to match that sort of price) or offer some incentive to shop there instead (if they don't, or can't due to contractual agreements).
Loss-leading is risky, and it's certainly understandable that stores would be reluctant to go down that road, particularly since the market for other ranges is so limited here as well. But by and large, at least from my experience, Australian gaming stores don't bother much with the latter either...
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Post by: Lanceradvanced
severedblue wrote: Recently two big book chains, Angus and Robertson and Borders Australia, went into administration. The reason cited was both high tariffs on these book sellers, high prices and having to pay for large retail frontage for people to test-read books.
In Borders case, this is by no means confined to Australia, and B&N is holding on, so some of those reasons may not hold water...
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Post by: WUWU
TalonZahn wrote:
WUWU, your argument is a strawman
...
Compete or GTFO.
No, it isn't. Your understanding of a strawman argument is wrong.
Competition is great when people are playing the same game. The fact of the matter is MG was acting outside of the terms of their contract with BF... they were cheating while everyone else was playing by the rules. That isn't fair competition, and is a perfect encapsulation of why most libertarian "free market" economics is utter failure.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Foxtale wrote:WUWU wrote:Frankly, I think both companies are in the wrong here, and I wont be patronizing either in the future.
Sadly, in our consumer world, by refusing to patronize either you are not harming the companies (well maybe minimally). Instead, you are merely hurting your own pocket as you will be spending more on miniatures than the rest of us.
I disagree. Because of this situation coming to light, I will never play FoW, either with another companies minis, second hand acquisitions, or anything else. Both companies have demonstrated poor business practices in front of everyone to see, and in my opinion patronizing either company would be wrong at this point. I have the choice to just play an entirely different gaming system. The loyalty to Games workshop, Battlefront... It's an illusion at best.
The gaming world should be studied in universities world round, in my opinion. I can't think of another market that exists, where such rampant brand loyalty exists... where two companies can publicly debate who can extract the highest margin, all in the name of customer service. And the whole time the consumers are arguing over who they can give their money too first.
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Post by: Aduro
The only time I care about supporting the local FLGS is if you use their store and tables to play your games. If you don't go there, then I don't care where you get your stuff. If you're going to play there, don't buy everything on-line, spend some actually money and support the place you're playing and hanging out at.
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Post by: ChrisWWII
Ignore me, nothing to see here. Moving right along.
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Post by: filbert
ChrisWWII wrote:I gues this hasn't been presented yet, but here is Maelstrom's statement regarding this issue.
Er we have been debating this since about the third page - kind of what the thread is about really - I take it you haven't read through then?
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Post by: ChrisWWII
My bad then, apologies..... No, I haven't been following it, and I have screwed up as such. x.X
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Post by: filbert
That's OK - I forgive you.
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Post by: notprop
I'm still really really dismayed by that piss poor letter writing by all involved.
[However somewhere over on another window - Second order of much reduced stuff placed with MG]
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Post by: Maelstrom Games
All right. This is slightly annoying. I'd like to correct a few misconceptions here.
First of all, do not be under the impression that Maelstrom have "abused" the 40% discount that is only available to bricks and mortar stores, because we most certainly have not.
When I began trading with Battlefront, we were told that we could only sell their products if we had a bricks and mortar store. Bear in mind this was 2005, when our webstore began.
In 2006 we moved to a shop with a back room in Mansfield, and as I had little money and had no staff I could only afford to have myself in the back room and no shop. In 2006, Gordon Davidson visited me and told me he would be happy to supply me because he could see "I was getting the shop ready" or words to that effect. So I began stocking Battlefront and trading their products online. The shop duly came in 2007, when I could afford staff.
Bear in mind that Peter Simunovich, the main man behind Battlefront, visited us in 2007.
In 2009 we moved to Matlock Mill in Mansfield, with a huge gaming hall (120 players on 6' x 4' tables), a bar and restaurant and a very large retail store which is (sorry, was) fully stocked with Battlefront products, amongst others of course. Gordon, John-Paul Brisigotti and John Matthews have visited our venue, some of them on many occasions. So it's not as if they are not aware of what we are.
So I hold no truck with anybody who seems to think we've fooled or deceived Battlefront somehow into giving us this "40% discount". We most certainly have not. All of their directors and management are aware that we are a webstore, bricks and mortar store and gaming venue.
Regarding the terms and conditions of our contract, well - there is certainly no "if you are primarily a webstore, you can't have that 40% discount" it was simply "you must have a bricks and mortar store".
Whether others have a different contract, I could not say, but our contract has certainly not changed - and if it has, they haven't sent me a copy and I have not signed up to it.
In short, you need to believe me when I say the reasons they have given in their solicitors letter for dropping us are spurious.
In reality they don't really have to give a reason. They could have simply said "we don't want to sell to you any more". Instead they have gone down this "webstore" route, which is frankly ridiculous.
Cheers
Rob Lane
MD, Maelstrom Games
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Post by: filbert
Rob, very decent of you to come on here and clear things up. Personally speaking, I know who I would rather trust; having dealt with Maelstrom before, I can attest to their professionalism. As I said earlier, it seems BF have behaved very shabbily here - trying to do a bit of a GW and act all heavy handed. I think this will seriously damage their reputation.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Much apreciated for your clarification Rob and glad to see you here on dakka
Yes its Battlefront choice not to provide you with the real reasons of their actions, but since all your clients and also FOW fans ( that are not that few) are left without any explanation I believe its poor behaviour from BF towards you and their fans.
Was very interesting to read your very sucessfull progress as a business and for all the people that try to paint you has some kind of greedy corporation thats going to kill all brick stores I think your actions and investments ( a huge store and huge gamming hall) do speak for itself... I mean why would you invest so much in the "hobby" it it was just a business for you?
Again thanks for the clarification and congrats by creating a sucessfull business model and showing that Hobby stores can have a bigger role worldwide.
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Post by: Grot 6
Hey, I want in on some of this sucking up, too!!!
As for Rob, I think you and BF need to take the fight back to the Sparta pit.
One day, out of the blue, you just end up getting hatemail from some cat you hardly even know? How does that work?
How did this thing really come about? I know there has to be something more to it, because if not, you need to be on the phone to the head office and talk to the HMIC about that crazy E mail that you got from that guy. Is he speaking for BF like that? If so, one really has to question how they think business really works.
Fight the power and all that stuff.
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Post by: notprop
The fact that the cutting of MG has made it to the website should be evidence enough that the HMIC @ BF is well aware of what has transpired. I think that he was also cc'd into the email ping-pong.
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Post by: Ian Sturrock
I'd been vaguely intrigued by Flames of War and had for a while considered moving over to it as a backup-option if GW ever really annoyed me (more than usual), but nah, not any more.
Maelstrom, on the other hand, I will continue to buy from, because they are awesome, and because they very visibly invest their profits in becoming more awesome. I'm really looking forward to gaming in the Eye of the Storm next month for the UK Grand Tournament (and hoping they run another Space Hulk tourney sometime too).
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Post by: severedblue
insaniak wrote:
But my point was that local game stores can compete. They just have to make up the shortfall somewhere else (if they want to match that sort of price) or offer some incentive to shop there instead (if they don't, or can't due to contractual agreements).
Loss-leading is risky, and it's certainly understandable that stores would be reluctant to go down that road, particularly since the market for other ranges is so limited here as well. But by and large, at least from my experience, Australian gaming stores don't bother much with the latter either...
Are you sure that the market is big enough to make up for the shortfall?? Is the market big enough? I wouldn't say selling small amounts of paint is where the profit is. It would be like Borders who have people reading books and buying coffee instead of buying books in quantity and leaving the store... their business model wasn't sustainable :(
sure creative business models can be used to make money, but those are anchillary; if you don't sell kits you are ripping the heart out of the business. It reminds me of the Internet Cafe near my university that closed down its gaming and card tables that the regulars used to put more PCs in. It's a business, not a charity, so their investment and innovation will go where the money is.
I remember talking to a local FLGS that carried GW products, who was quite mature about his business. His is the flagship store that he's franchised out, and his store differs from the franchisers because he offers consistently 10% discount on all the stock he carries, even GW (others in that group don't offer that discount). So yes he can compete by virtue of having 10% discount with pickup. He said he was making enough to stay afloat and lift comfortably. But not enough to be prosperous.
I also noticed that my local GW battle bunker has been converted into a one-man operation, for a big shop front.
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Post by: insaniak
severedblue wrote:Are you sure that the market is big enough to make up for the shortfall?? Is the market big enough? I wouldn't say selling small amounts of paint is where the profit is. It would be like Borders who have people reading books and buying coffee instead of buying books in quantity and leaving the store... their business model wasn't sustainable :(
It's a messy issue, although I suspect that a large part of the problem over the years has come from not-particularly-business-savvy gamers thinking that running a games store would be easy, and opening stores in areas that really don't have the base to support them.
A well set-up store in the right area, run by someone who knows what they are doing? I absolutely think there is enough of a market to be selling at a discount and making up the shortfall running events and selling food.
The discount doesn't have to be as high as you can get from overseas... you make up for a certain amount of higher price by having stock on the shelves (another failing of most of the games stores I've been into over the years) for instant gratification.
sure creative business models can be used to make money, but those are anchillary; if you don't sell kits you are ripping the heart out of the business.
The kits still get sold, and the manufacturer still makes the same amount of money, so the 'heart' of the business remains. At the end of the day, I guess what I'm really suggesting is that the brick and mortar retail arm of that business is probably going to do better in this day and age shifting their focus to being based on running events rather than selling merchandise. Have the merchandise, certainly... because even if the prices are higher, you'll shift some of it.
But ultimately, if you can't compete 1-on-1 with another business (whether that other business is internet based or not makes no difference) and as a result your business is suffering, you have two realistic options: complain about it, or change the focus of your business to make your money from elsewhere.
It's probably a good time to point out that this is all armchair theorising and my personal opinion, not intended in any way as an iron-clad statement of the way the universe works.
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Post by: severedblue
insaniak wrote:you have two realistic options: complain about it, or change the focus of your business to make your money from elsewhere.
Something tells me that BFs other distributors did the first one, had a whinge and hence BF threw Maelstorm under the bus.
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Post by: Wehrkind
Actually, I think the Borders vs Amazon example is a really excellent one for this. In fact it never really occurred to me just how much the two situations parallel each other, and why I stopped going to book stores.
Amazon always has the book I want, even if it is some obscure economist I have a man crush on. Borders is a huge pain for that, as they can only stock sufficiently popular books. If you have an interest in a broad but not terribly popular field it can be a real crap shoot.
There is a very nice feature of a physical book store in that you can walk in not knowing what you want and take a look at stuff. I have done that with various art/drawing books in the past. However, I find that most of the time anymore I am getting reading recommendations from other people on the internet, from blogs and the like, and every once in a while from Amazon itself suggesting things I didn't know existed, like companion books or other books from the same author. I never found book stores to be too handy in that sense.
Additionally there are the Kindle Books which are all kinds of nice. Generally carrying the Wealth of Nations around on one's back is fairly unpleasant. And again the used book section is phenomenal. Loeb Classic Library books such as Caesar's Gallic Wars (in original Latin and English) for .81$?! That's a 30$+ book most places.
Which makes me think of the other place I buy books periodically: used book stores. All the touchy looky of a book store at less price.
I think I would buy a lot more at local stores if they had the selection of an online retailer, or the price. Most of the time they have neither, and often can't muster up much service and friendliness. I am all for instant gratification, but driving to get a model they might not even have (while not being able to eye ball other models I might want) and paying more for the privilege is a bit much.
In a way, I almost would rather a store charge to play there, as I do like paying for what I use, and buying some paints and maybe a kit every time I go for a tournament or random game doesn't seem like a great way to do it for either of us.
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Post by: Lanceradvanced
Wehrkind wrote:Actually, I think the Borders vs Amazon example is a really excellent one for this. In fact it never really occurred to me just how much the two situations parallel each other
Yes, but in this case, Maelstrom seems to have been smacked for not being Borders, -or- Amazon, but B&N, A decent brick and mortar chain, with a well matched, and increasignly strong digital presence.
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Post by: ArbeitsSchu
Amazon sell Battlefront products. Do they have a B+M store nobody told me about? Am I missing something here?
(And I mean the items sold by Amazon.co.Uk, not the ones supplied by various "shops" who may well have real shops attached.)
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Post by: Wehrkind
Lanceradvanced wrote:Wehrkind wrote:Actually, I think the Borders vs Amazon example is a really excellent one for this. In fact it never really occurred to me just how much the two situations parallel each other
Yes, but in this case, Maelstrom seems to have been smacked for not being Borders, -or- Amazon, but B&N, A decent brick and mortar chain, with a well matched, and increasignly strong digital presence.
Oh yea, no doubt there. I meant in the general "Intarwebz stole my store!" debate.
I wonder if book stores are complaining that they offer places to read your books and meet new people who are interested in books, but people only care about price. That would be interesting to read. I guess it is the combination of store and free gaming club that most FLGS stores aim for that causes the issue.
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Post by: ArbeitsSchu
Wehrkind wrote:Lanceradvanced wrote:Wehrkind wrote:Actually, I think the Borders vs Amazon example is a really excellent one for this. In fact it never really occurred to me just how much the two situations parallel each other
Yes, but in this case, Maelstrom seems to have been smacked for not being Borders, -or- Amazon, but B&N, A decent brick and mortar chain, with a well matched, and increasignly strong digital presence.
Oh yea, no doubt there. I meant in the general "Intarwebz stole my store!" debate.
I wonder if book stores are complaining that they offer places to read your books and meet new people who are interested in books, but people only care about price. That would be interesting to read. I guess it is the combination of store and free gaming club that most FLGS stores aim for that causes the issue.
For all that online shopping has its many advantages, I find there is nothing quite as satisfying as being able to sort through blisters (or books), rattle boxes, tilt them to see if you can see what bits are in it, flick through them and generally just have a good old rummage. Rummaging on the internet just doesn't... cut it. You can't touch or smell the things you buy. (I like the smell of books, not figures.)
Weird fetish aside, I do like the internet for precision buying.. getting exactly what you require...but real world shopping has a quality all of its own.
Still not sure why BF feel the need to be so bloody rude about Maelstrom providing both types though. Mind you, I remember Gord...
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Post by: Panic
yeah,
ArbeitsSchu wrote:Amazon sell Battlefront products. Do they have a B+M store nobody told me about?...
This is a very interesting point...
edit: edit: ninja'd by Kanluwen below...
Panic...
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Post by: Kanluwen
ArbeitsSchu wrote:Amazon sell Battlefront products. Do they have a B+M store nobody told me about? Am I missing something here?
(And I mean the items sold by Amazon.co.Uk, not the ones supplied by various "shops" who may well have real shops attached.)
I looked at almost every entry for 'Flames of War' on Amazon.co. uk , and none of the models are sold by Amazon.
Some of the books are, yeah. But likely the books have different stock management in place.
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Post by: stonerain
I can only speak from my experiance and Maelstrom have always given a first class service. Whenever I want an item its the first place I check, I could shop around and sometimes do but they offer a price check, there is a lot to be said for a reliable service that delivers when they say they will, FLGS or online, I like to pay the right price and get it in my hands asap, some web stores have you waiting four weeks !
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Post by: Wehrkind
ArbeitsSchu wrote:
For all that online shopping has its many advantages, I find there is nothing quite as satisfying as being able to sort through blisters (or books), rattle boxes, tilt them to see if you can see what bits are in it, flick through them and generally just have a good old rummage. Rummaging on the internet just doesn't... cut it. You can't touch or smell the things you buy. (I like the smell of books, not figures.)
Weird fetish aside, I do like the internet for precision buying.. getting exactly what you require...but real world shopping has a quality all of its own.
Still not sure why BF feel the need to be so bloody rude about Maelstrom providing both types though. Mind you, I remember Gord...
That's a good point. I get my paper pulp fix sufficiently well when they come in the mail (often with the added excitement of "OOH! What did I order?! NEAT" due to poor memory) but I agree that purchasing is often more satisfying initially in person. So much so that I don't think I would even call it a fetish at this point. I have bought a lot models in person that I never would have looked at online, though the reverse is true too.
At the same time though, I think that when you know what you need (e.g. "4 LRs and 5 Chimeras please") the rummage part becomes less exciting. I really do appreciate stores like Showcase that stock more of the smaller companies' models that you are going to want to poke through, examine for scale etc. And nothing beats finding someone with a file box filled with DarkAge blisters at 40% off at a convention!
I think part of the big issue is that many stores are not fully aware of what value they really provide to customers, or are convinced it is something else entirely. I might argue a lot of companies in general have that issue when you get right down to it. Hell, looking at how poor Hollywood is at picking movies to make, or how bad FOX is about cancelling shows etc. probably is pretty damning evidence.
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Post by: ArbeitsSchu
Interesting that BF have a different "sales pitch" for their books than their figures, if only passingly.
I noticed whilst reading WI (a publication firmly in bed with BF) that the back cover is a huge advert for Maelstrom which prominently mentions there being an "in-store" and that discounts between there and online are the same. Its gilding the lily to point it out I suspect, but here is yet another proof that Maelstrom are totally "B+M" compliant, and that BF are blowing smoke out of their collectives..in their own "house mag" of all places. Did someone just not brief the lawyers properly? Has Gordon spent too long playing with little lead men for his own good?
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Post by: severedblue
ArbeitsSchu wrote: BF are blowing smoke out of their collectives..in their own "house mag" of all places. Did someone just not brief the lawyers properly? Has Gordon spent too long playing with little lead men for his own good?
They are looking for an excuse to terminate the agreement, and this excuse was sought in bad faith. An excuse sounds better than "we have our reasons so we won't tell you so there"
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Post by: ArbeitsSchu
severedblue wrote:ArbeitsSchu wrote: BF are blowing smoke out of their collectives..in their own "house mag" of all places. Did someone just not brief the lawyers properly? Has Gordon spent too long playing with little lead men for his own good?
They are looking for an excuse to terminate the agreement, and this excuse was sought in bad faith. An excuse sounds better than "we have our reasons so we won't tell you so there"
One would have thought that they might seek a slightly more solid reason for doing so than one which is clearly so much toss.
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Post by: severedblue
Aaah commerce. It looks like Wayland are taking the opportunity to twist the knife
Wayland Games wrote:Your #1 Flames Of War Store!
If there's one game that revolutionised historical wargaming, it's Flames Of War.
The figures are fantastic, the game is fast, fun and competitive. Plus, with a dedicated paint range, getting true-to-life camo patterns and colour schemes couldn't be simpler.
There's even a selection of basecoat spray cans to help you paint your army perfectly and at speed!
Check out the full Flames Of War range for yourself to see what this great World War II wargame is all about.
Even hardcore Warhammer 40K fans will be tempted!
Plus, we have always offered free shipping on Flames of War, letting you buy as much or as little as you like without paying out for postage.
I don't think BF have acted honourably, but there is no honour when you need to cut someone's throat in the name of business.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Wayland Games wrote:
Your #1 Flames Of War Store!
... until we make some sort of imagined slight and BattleFront cuts off as well!
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Post by: AvatarForm
H.B.M.C. wrote:Wayland Games wrote:
Your #1 Flames Of War Store!
... until we make some sort of imagined slight and BattleFront cuts off as well!
Im interested to see the 'official' BF statement.
I meant the worst thin Maelstrom has ever done was mis-packing my paints and then crappy post-sale customer service...
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Post by: AvatarForm
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Post by: insaniak
That link was posted 5 pages ago...
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Yeah but AvatarForm still has a Christmas had on his avatar, so he must be a little behind.
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