Just today me and two friends went into town to buy some stuff (as we had just discovered that there was a warhammer stockist in our town) and asked what days that they played. The answer was every day, but you must pay a £5 subscription fee every month. Is this a normal thing to happen or is this a bit "abnormal" for want of a better word?

I've seen this at stores before in my travels. The LGS used to do this, but did away with it.

From what I gathered from the last time this topic popped up, it seems to be a more common occurrence in the UK than the US. I'd give more of my thoughts, but then we'll have people saying how entitled US players are vs the rest of the world again.

Usually its some kind of club you buy into that allows for some benefit after so many "games".

When stores let you play there, they probably hope you'll see something you like during or after the game and buy it. If a store had limited space or just needed the $$ to pay rent or whatever, I could see them charging.

The trick is if they charge too much, people will play elsewhere - and the store misses out on having more visits/potentially more impulse buys. If the store is the only one in town, I could see them pulling this off. If there is another store, too, well, maybe not. Unless that other store charges, too.

If it was me and I thought I'd play a couple of times a month, it might be worth it. Consider the cost of a movie and popcorn and then decide. Or if you really don't want to play, you can always start building your own game table - or playing with a friend who has one. But you may find more new opponents at the store, which is also a plus.

If it's good terrain, washroom facilities, refreshment available etc in a nice environment, then why not.

Upkeep costs money. Decide if you would get your money's worth and then make the decision.

lol, here's about 7 pages of heated discussion on the same topic. try to avoid the same pitfalls...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/335304.page


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the general consensus from the thread seemed to be that it's perfectly acceptable to most gamers for a store to charge you to play (via a membership or daily fee) as long as they provide a service over and above what you'd expect from a "free" gaming space. Basically, very nice terrain (and copious amounts of it to choose from) as well as a nice player base and possibly even some structure to the gaming nights (themed battles with referees/judges and/or campaigns where your play actually matters from game to game).

My thoughts: The store makes its money selling items. They shouldn't be charging you just to play, if they have an area set up to do so. That's my general opinion, however...

If they only allow you to play on certain days or at tournies and it involves closing the store and major rearranging to accomodate games, then maybe I could see it.

I can also see it if they have a "league night" type scenario. A local game club did this where they would come to the store and play on Wednesdays and stay well after the store normally closed. But we paid a membership to the league not to the store, but I could see a store taking a cut for the space in this scenario, especially considering we would have 50+ people there all to game.

our LGS once jumped the price of a can of soda from .50 cents to .80 onvernight. The owners reasoning was that he was a game store not a refreshment stand and didnt want people spending money on drinks instead of games. He realised his mistake when a few tournaments rolled through and folks would walk across the street and buy drinks rather than spend the .80 cents there. I see his point but you might as well provide for your guests...

Not something my LGS does, we all just wander in, though if they charged £5.00 ($) and provided extra thingsl ike refreshments, I would be more than happy to pay.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:If it's good terrain, washroom facilities, refreshment available etc in a nice environment, then why not.

Upkeep costs money. Decide if you would get your money's worth and then make the decision.

This, I've paid to play for 10 years, it helps the store buy new terrain, upkeep and stay open, small price to pay for such a long spanning enjoyment i've received in return.

Ahhh, I see most people are fine with it (which i am), I will just have to check it out a bit more before I decide to buy into this (despite it only being a fiver, compared to my monthly amount of money [and getting there on the bus which is £3!]). Thanks for the input guys, I just needed to check this was a fairly regular thing!

When I had the time to go to stores more often, I'd probably have been annoyed if the store started charging for all access. However, I see no problem with 'membership' offering benefits like priority access (I.E. reserving a few tables for members or even members-only on certain nights) but I think they should keep a few free, especially so they can demo games or try to get players involved that normally play at home.

at my LGS they didn't make you pay and had amazing boards! they had four boxes full of terrain and three already set out. If you used terrain they would keep take 12$ from you and put in a little envelope, if you broke any terrain, they would keep it for repairs, if you didn't they would give it back to you. They also had an 7-11 store on the floor below them.

Most of the game stores that I used to hang out at in the past 15-20 years have come and gone (five in total). We all used to balk at paying a "cover" as well...

I don't see any problem with it. My LGS charges a $5 fee to rent a table for the day. I do the same thing at the local billiard hall. It helps out the local business I like to frequent and it isn't really breaking my bank, so I don't mind. Plus, on the designated nights of your particular game, it's free as long as there is a table available.

It's abnormal, due primarily to, to put it delicately, the typical gamer's thriftiness.

Everybody wants value for their dollar, of course, but a lot of gamers deeply resent paying for anything that they think should be free. That nearly all successful stores in the US provide free play space, there's some compelling evidence that it's the cultural norm.

I wouldn't mind it, but OTOH it would probably limit how often I just pop in to see about a game. Every store owner that posts here has made good arguments why it's simply more hassle than it's worth.

My LGS has 40k every Monday and charges 5 dollars to play. However, that 5 dollar charge becomes a gift cert. In which adds up the more Mondays you come, andallows you to buy something later on. Kind of like a mini bank. Its a good idea.

I generally walk into my local GW and put the kettle on anyway
But yea, it all depends on what you get for that.


If its simply a crap hole of a place that offers nothing, i wouldnt pay.

If it was a semi-decent place with regular players and decent boards i wouldnt mind paying for it.

Living in the US I have never seen this. However I wouldn't at all mind paying a monthly fee if it was reasonable and I was clearly paying for something..Good terrain...Nice environment and so forth. I would not only not mind I would actually be happy to do so.

I don't understand why most game stores don't run a variety of tournaments constantly

It seems that when stores start charging a fee to play, it's usually in response to gamers coming in and playing, but never purchasing anything. Well, running tournaments is basically encouraging gamers to come in and pay to play, with the incentive of possibly winning credit or merchandise in the process. It's a win for both parties, and most gamers seems to be a competitive lot, so it shouldn't take too much persuading.

5 of whatever type of money you use over there (sea shells?) over the period of a month doesn't seem too bad if they have nice facilities.

Incoming layman consumer opinion: You have to look at this in the context of the internet. Brick&mortars must compete with internet stores but, as a general principle, are at a disadvantage because of overhead and maintenance. In this market, the infrastructure that enables you to play the game becomes a product itself. I don't think that consumers or store owners are really comfortable with this idea yet -- or maybe store owners are but they're bound to be sensitive (see Polonius's post) to their customers' discomfort. Over time, I imagine that both store owners and customers will need to accept that playing in a store is commodity for which there is a charge.

I guess I wouldn't argue that car rentals should be free because of public transportation.

Something to think about though. Stores typically rent space by the square foot. Any owner knows that any space with a table is not going to generate him any income as he can't stock product there to sell. Fees for playing may be what keeps the place open.

My LGS doesn't charge but we support the owner with a gaming club of over 70 paid members that he can count on to buy a majority of their minis from him. It is a tradeoff. He provides a place to game we provide him a solid customer base.

So you have to ask those who aren't the "regulars" to stay away? That's not the best business model . . .


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I think of it like this:

I recently bought all the models I need from an army from a local-to-Dakka web merchant. In doing so, I saved nearly $150 dollars. Had I made the same purchase from the FLGS, would that $150 actually go into having a place to play? That's case-by-case. But assuming it did, and assuming a $5/session (whatever that entails) table fee, I'd have to play thirty sessions to get my money's worth. I'd much rather pay as I play then subscribe. Whether the business model that the consumer prefers will be able to support is a good question.

Would you pay to use a table at a restaurant after already paying for your dinner?

I wouldn't bring my own dinner in and expect to be able to use the table.

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italiaplaya wrote:My LGS has 40k every Monday and charges 5 dollars to play. However, that 5 dollar charge becomes a gift cert. In which adds up the more Mondays you come, andallows you to buy something later on. Kind of like a mini bank. Its a good idea.

This is a smart one. My new local (Myriad Games) has a similar setup. Playing has a fee after the first time, or you can buy a monthly membership at various levels (starting at Bronze: $10/month). Each level provides a certain number of play "tokens" (2/month at Bronze), plus other membership benefits like discounts, an increasingly favorable rate on trade-ins, etc. You also get play tokens every time you spend at least a certain amount, IIRC. But the monthly membership fee is ALSO given back to you as store credit. So it functionally costs you nothing if you're willing to commit to buying a certain amount each month.

All that being said, while that's now the closest store to me, I still drive farther to play at another store which has more space and a 40k crowd. I do maintain a Bronze membership at Myriad, however, and play there a couple of times a month with my old gaming crew, for boardgaming and such.

WUWU wrote:I don't understand why most game stores don't run a variety of tournaments constantly

It seems that when stores start charging a fee to play, it's usually in response to gamers coming in and playing, but never purchasing anything. Well, running tournaments is basically encouraging gamers to come in and pay to play, with the incentive of possibly winning credit or merchandise in the process. It's a win for both parties, and most gamers seems to be a competitive lot, so it shouldn't take too much persuading.

This. I think 100% to prizes (store credit) tournaments are brilliant. We have a store out here that does it and it means that they take in $15 x participant number for each tournament and it all goes to the store. In exchange, you know that all of that money is 'coming back' to the participants. Win/Win.

If I lived closer than 30 minutes to my two flgs, I would have no problem paying five dollars a month or what not to play.

I was in a tournament Saturday, five dollar entry cost, for a chance to get a little store credit (I came in second, and got 10 dollars worth of credit). But because of how small the store is I couldn't use my debit card to pay for the tournament until I could spent at least 5 dollars in other things (10 minimum to use a card) so I bought some drinks for the game, and some new dice.

But I definitely agree that if stores held more tournaments they would have less reason to charge players to just come in and play. But then again, some stores can't afford the possibility of giving away products to the tournament winners unless there is a good enough turnaround on the tournament.

Touche. And yes that does happen sometimes. People buying their gaming supply elsewhere and just coming in to use the tables. But even these moochers help promote the product in their own way. The more people playing in an area means more impulse buys and new people becoming interested and joining in.

But my metaphor was in regards to the many people who actually buy their product from their LGS and continue to buy product throughout the course of coming to said gaming store.

So, to clarify, when you go to a restaurant and buy your food there are you expected to also pay for the table you eat at?

NobleSeven wrote:Touche. And yes that does happen sometimes.

But the metaphor was in regards to the many people who actually buy their product from their LGS and continue to buy product throughout the course of coming to said gaming store.

So, to clarify, when you go to a restaurant and buy your food there are you expected to also pay for the table you eat at?

Yep, tipping. You are paying for service. If you ordered take-out from the same restaurant, you wouldn't be expected to tip as there is not really any service. But by taking up table and staff time, most places expect you to tip.

In a more directly-applicable metaphor, if you go the bowling alley you both pay for the lane and to rent shoes and a ball. If you have your own shoes and ball, you still pay for the lane.

I think the Pay-To-Play concept is good business, but more often then not it is poorly implemented. Applying Pay-To-Play to general every day open-gaming will send customers packing, at least I know it would for me. IMO, the way it should be applied is by hosting 'special events' that offer something a little more than the normal and will draw in a crowd.

Tipping has nothing to do with the actual table you are eating at. It has everything to do with service.

You tip people for a job well done. If they do poorly you tip less or if it is truly horrendous- not at all.

If my table has a scratch in it or there is a tear in the booth I am sitting at I am not going to tip the server less due to this.

Okay, how about this one: You go in at lunch, pay for your food, sit at their table, and take your leftovers. Then, at dinner time, you bring your leftovers back in and ask for a table.

we can only stretch the metaphor so thin but my point is (as per the earlier post) that at some point the full retail price is no longer paying for gaming space. My $150 over the internet pays for how much time on the tables? Or, if I went to the same place for 10 years and played with that same army, should the fact that I paid retail a decade ago still count as my entry fee?

This is why I prefer pay-to-play combined with FLGS owners being okay with my army being bought on the internet. It also frees them up from having to build ill-will by turning me away (a la some GW locations).

We have a local store that literally runs 1 tournament for 40k every weekend. It is great and all that money comes back to players in the form of store credit. It basically guarantee's revenue for the store and makes for a guaranteed good time at least once a week if you got the time to play.

As for paying to play I would not like that because some gamers only play like once a month. That would be unfair to them to have to pay everytime they play.

Mannahnin wrote:In a more directly-applicable metaphor, if you go the bowling alley you both pay for the lane and to rent shoes and a ball. If you have your own shoes and ball, you still pay for the lane.

inconceivable!!!

I think pay to play for your LGS is a ridiculous notion.

And all this talk about restaurants is making me hungry.

I'll try and dig up a few extra dollars to get a good table.

We have a LGS in the area that lets you play all day as long as you buy $5 in merch. I have always though this is more than fair.

The sad truth is that nowadays local gaming stores are competing against "Internet sales". I recently talk to one guy who had a LGS and he told me that his own custumers, usually tweens, went to play in the store but hey get their minis through websites.

When the costumers have no gratitude or moral responsability towards their LGS, what else do you have? A lot of stores are dying with all the crisis.

That is a problem, it is hard for me to find a good place for a tournament in my own city after my usual LGS got closed. I would pay 5 dollars, pounds or euros for having a nice noon with gaming people.

The future are the gaming clubs, groups of friends that manage to get some place and share the hobby together.

NobleSeven wrote:I think pay to play for your LGS is a ridiculous notion.

Do you also think paying for play space in a bowling alley, or a pool hall, is a ridiculous notion?

That being said, it is a nuanced issue. Many successful FLGS owners (like Mikhaila) have said they feel there are better ways to get customers to spend their money at the store.

But I don't think there's anything ridiculous about it at all.

pretre wrote:

WUWU wrote:I don't understand why most game stores don't run a variety of tournaments constantly

It seems that when stores start charging a fee to play, it's usually in response to gamers coming in and playing, but never purchasing anything. Well, running tournaments is basically encouraging gamers to come in and pay to play, with the incentive of possibly winning credit or merchandise in the process. It's a win for both parties, and most gamers seems to be a competitive lot, so it shouldn't take too much persuading.

This. I think 100% to prizes (store credit) tournaments are brilliant. We have a store out here that does it and it means that they take in $15 x participant number for each tournament and it all goes to the store. In exchange, you know that all of that money is 'coming back' to the participants. Win/Win.

Exactly. I think most retail outlets would kill to have this product/consumer dynamic, and yet it is rarely capitalized on by game stores.

This goes doubly so for stores that carry CCGs. Any day you aren't running a sealed deck or booster draft tournament is wasted time.

Manchu's right, the metaphor has been stretched to death.

LGS's have to make money. If you're not buying product, they'll sell food, drinks, or table space to make a living. If you are in their store, you better be buying something from them. Otherwise, why are you there?




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WUWU wrote:Exactly. I think most retail outlets would kill to have this product/consumer dynamic, and yet it is rarely capitalized on by game stores.

This goes doubly so for stores that carry CCGs. Any day you aren't running a sealed deck or booster draft tournament is wasted time.

I don't get stores that aren't running an event a day. If/when I get a store, I would use this kind of thing to pack them in.

Buy-in challenge games, sealed drafts, tournaments, promotions.

Gaming and comic stores who expect to make money just off people walking in and purchasing merchandise while they chill and play WOW aren't living in reality.

WUWU wrote:

This goes doubly so for stores that carry CCGs. Any day you aren't running a sealed deck or booster draft tournament is wasted time.

You are serving a finite geographic based customer base btw.


What these thread usually illustrate is that many gamers fancy themselves able to run a business and think that all you have to do is x,y,z ( as if they are the first to think of it) and you are set.

The reality of running such a business model is far from what most gamers think it is...

CT GAMER wrote:

WUWU wrote:

This goes doubly so for stores that carry CCGs. Any day you aren't running a sealed deck or booster draft tournament is wasted time.

You are serving a finite geographic based customer base btw.


What these thread usually illustrate is that many gamers fancy themselves able to run a business and think that all you have to do is x,y,z ( as if they are the first to think of it) and you are set.

The reality of running such a business model is far from what most gamers think it is...

Hosting a tournament is minimal effort on the stores end. It can be as easy as making a calendar of events online.

Imagine if clothing stores, for example, could post a date on facebook, and customers would organize themselves to come in, pool their money to buy items, and market your product for the day. Win.

Sure, it's probably not feasible to expect a group of Magic players to come in everyday for a tournament, but with a handful of game systems it wouldn't be far fetched to have an event everyday.

Another thing worth considering is the length of time that one game can tie up a table. If you're like my group, 4 hours easy.

I think the right way to go would be to offer a table subscription at a fair price and then include in that price some nice extras: free drinks for example, maybe 1 free army book of your choice per year, access to the store's Internet Discussion Board, VIP lounge with awesome music, etc.

The other way around it is to run more Tournaments where people have to pay to play anyway - use some of the $$ for prizes, use some for the store's expenses.

It's something that needs to be done delicately - no matter what, if you start charging, certain people will vanish. Make it more than just a table fee by providing extras that show appreciation for the customer and it can work out well for everyone.

WUWU wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

WUWU wrote:

This goes doubly so for stores that carry CCGs. Any day you aren't running a sealed deck or booster draft tournament is wasted time.

You are serving a finite geographic based customer base btw.


What these thread usually illustrate is that many gamers fancy themselves able to run a business and think that all you have to do is x,y,z ( as if they are the first to think of it) and you are set.

The reality of running such a business model is far from what most gamers think it is...

Hosting a tournament is minimal effort on the stores end. It can be as easy as making a calendar of events online.

Imagine if clothing stores, for example, could post a date on facebook, and customers would organize themselves to come in, pool their money to buy items, and market your product for the day. Win.

Sure, it's probably not feasible to expect a group of Magic players to come in everyday for a tournament, but with a handful of game systems it wouldn't be far fetched to have an event everyday.

So how big is your store?

You gonna have the room and staff to host a tournament every day AND have room for the people that want to play other games or who don't play tournaments?

What times you having these tournaments during weekdays? How long is a typical tournament?

Most adults are at work all day and kids have school so turnout for both of these groups would be minimal until late in the afternoon, and if you start later what time you staying open to and because a lot of kids are not gonna be able to stay out late, and most hard working adults don't want to (especially if they have other family obligations).

Start breaking down the logistics of what you are saying and factor it to the actual income of most stores compared to cost of square footage, utilities, payroll, etc.

It isn;t so easy as you suggest.

CT GAMER wrote:

WUWU wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

WUWU wrote:

This goes doubly so for stores that carry CCGs. Any day you aren't running a sealed deck or booster draft tournament is wasted time.

You are serving a finite geographic based customer base btw.


What these thread usually illustrate is that many gamers fancy themselves able to run a business and think that all you have to do is x,y,z ( as if they are the first to think of it) and you are set.

The reality of running such a business model is far from what most gamers think it is...

Hosting a tournament is minimal effort on the stores end. It can be as easy as making a calendar of events online.

Imagine if clothing stores, for example, could post a date on facebook, and customers would organize themselves to come in, pool their money to buy items, and market your product for the day. Win.

Sure, it's probably not feasible to expect a group of Magic players to come in everyday for a tournament, but with a handful of game systems it wouldn't be far fetched to have an event everyday.

So how big is your store?

You gonna have the room and staff to host a tournament every day AND have room for the people that want to play other games or who don't play tournaments?

What times you having these tournaments during weekdays? How long is a typical tournament?

Most adults are at work all day and kids have school so turnout for both of these groups would be minimal until late in the afternoon, and if you start later what time you staying open to and because a lot of kids are not gonna be able to stay out late, and most hard working adults don't want to (especially if they have other family obligations).

Start breaking down the logistics of what you are saying and factor it to the actual income of most stores compared to cost of square footage, utilities, payroll, etc.

It isn;t so easy as you suggest.

I understand there are logistical concerns.. that's life though.

What are you doing with your time if you aren't running events? That's the issue.

When business starts to falter it seems most stores would rather do nothing -or worse yet, throw out a flat fee to play- then attempt to enact positive change. It doesn't surprise me at all that most games stores have a very short lifespan

This is like... people only remember how cool was to have a LGS in their town when that LGS is no more there.

This hobby and players need local gaming stores.
LGSs are fighting against the crisis and the internet sales.
If paying for the gaming board, using lockers... is part of the solution for the survival of a LGS, take my money.

Because I´ve been there, I´ve seen gaming communities dying because when there was no LGS there were no tournaments and the social part of the hobby got lost. People paint less miniatures every month, less games, they loose contact and one year after they hardly see each other again.

What are you doing with your time if you aren't running events? That's the issue.

customer service, ordering, stocking, inventoring, monitoring store, taking calls from customers, taking calls from vendors, cleaning, managing/policing/babysitting the almost constant gaggle of people haning out in your store, running demos, fixing broken items, etc., etc.

in fact when i had a store I often did not have time to do everything I needed or wanted to do in a given day and I worked 12+ hours seven days a week. And if if you plan for the 15 things you know you NEED to do you will usually have four or five things come up that DEMAND immediate attention during the course of the day.

Yes that is life and that is buisness, but you seem to be implying that stores that struggle are doing so because they are somehow lazy and unwilling to "just run events". What I am suggesting is that it is far more complicated then that. IF there was one simple solution like this then we would have multiple stores in every town doing booming buisness.

The reality is far from what most gamers assume it is.

And yes some stores do very well: The Mikaelas of the world prove this, but for every Mikaela there are scores if not hundreds that come and go. I think it is a little narrow minded to assume that this is all simply due to lazy owners not running enough ccg booster drafts...

If I was being charged to 'pay to play' at my local store - I'd just go to my club instead.

We have a room big enough for 36 players (and 18 tables) - and with some prior arrangements, enough terrain to fill them all.

Sure, we charge a fee per person per meeting (this is mainly to cover our club costs like venue hire and bulk storage lockup - where the majority of our boards and terrain is kept securely - but the remainder goes into our club funds to keep our tournaments going, and to ensure prizes are there for them)>

Besides. I can have beers at my club.
Can't take any alcohol into my local GW (My only local games store with tables) - although there is a pub next door to it.

It's kinda fortunate. I generally need a few reinforcing pints before facing that horde of munchkins.

CT GAMER wrote:

What are you doing with your time if you aren't running events? That's the issue.

customer service, ordering, stocking, inventoring, monitoring store, taking calls from customers, taking calls from vendors, cleaning, managing/policing/babysitting the almost constant gaggle of people haning out in your store, running demos, fixing broken items, etc., etc.

in fact when i had a store I often did not have time to do everything I needed or wanted to do in a given day and I worked 12+ hours seven days a week. And if if you plan for the 15 things you know you NEED to do you will usually have four or five things come up that DEMAND immediate attention during the course of the day.

Yes that is life and that is buisness, but you seem to be implying that stores that struggle are doing so because they are somehow lazy and unwilling to "just run events". What I am suggesting is that it is far more complicated then that. IF there was one simple solution like this then we would have multiple stores in every town doing booming buisness.

The reality is far from what most gamers assume it is.

And yes some stores do very well: The Mikaelas of the world prove this, but for every Mikaela there are scores if not hundreds that come and go. I think it is a little narrow minded to assume that this is all simply due to lazy owners not running enough ccg booster drafts...

If your entire 12 hour day is filled with helping customers, ordering new inventory, and monitoring a room filled with gamers, you probably aren't in the position where you have to charge people to hang it in your store, just to keep the doors open.

The entire premise of this conversation is based on stores that are struggling to do business. Rather than charging people to play, a creative and positive solution is to run events. You don't agree with this?

WUWU wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

What are you doing with your time if you aren't running events? That's the issue.

customer service, ordering, stocking, inventoring, monitoring store, taking calls from customers, taking calls from vendors, cleaning, managing/policing/babysitting the almost constant gaggle of people haning out in your store, running demos, fixing broken items, etc., etc.

in fact when i had a store I often did not have time to do everything I needed or wanted to do in a given day and I worked 12+ hours seven days a week. And if if you plan for the 15 things you know you NEED to do you will usually have four or five things come up that DEMAND immediate attention during the course of the day.

Yes that is life and that is buisness, but you seem to be implying that stores that struggle are doing so because they are somehow lazy and unwilling to "just run events". What I am suggesting is that it is far more complicated then that. IF there was one simple solution like this then we would have multiple stores in every town doing booming buisness.

The reality is far from what most gamers assume it is.

And yes some stores do very well: The Mikaelas of the world prove this, but for every Mikaela there are scores if not hundreds that come and go. I think it is a little narrow minded to assume that this is all simply due to lazy owners not running enough ccg booster drafts...

If your entire 12 hour day is filled with helping customers, ordering new inventory, and monitoring a room filled with gamers, you probably aren't in the position where you have to charge people to hang it in your store, just to keep the doors open.

The entire premise of this conversation is based on stores that are struggling to do business. Rather than charging people to play, a creative and positive solution is to run events. You don't agree with this?

i don't agree with a flip oversimlification of a complex issue that is made up of scores of variables and factors particualr to each specific situation.

The suggestion that if a store owner just ran a pokemon tourney every day everything would be fine pure idealism and has no basis in reality as a broad solution tot he trend of game stores struggling and closing...

I think the comparison to Bowling Alleys or Pool Halls is spot on.
With the above, you pay for every game you play, even if you bring your own equipment.

Or another example is the indoor softball leagues in my area.
You pay to be part of a league/team which is your user fee for the facility you are using.

Any money a person has paid for an army is irrelevant.
We should be perfectly willing and able to pay for gaming space.
We are using space that the owner of said space has a right to compensation for.
Who do you think cleans up after the gaming is over?

Have any of you looked into the cost to use part of a reception hall, VFW or Legion hall?
They charge for the time and space used and it ain't cheap.

The lack of clubs and expectation of free play-space in the U.S. has spoiled us.

My store is free

NobleSeven wrote:So, to clarify, when you go to a restaurant and buy your food there are you expected to also pay for the table you eat at?

You might as well skip the analogies, they don't help. Restaurants factor rent, wages, overtime etc. into the cost of the food, and afterwards, the tip.

If games store owners knew they were getting a tip at the end of the end of the evening I'm sure this would be less of an issue.

In any case, I think it's a good idea to charge. Supporting your LGS has advantages in the long run.

BobbaFett Wrote:

The sad truth is that nowadays local gaming stores are competing against "Internet sales". I recently talk to one guy who had a LGS and he told me that his own custumers, usually tweens, went to play in the store but hey get their minis through websites.

When the costumers have no gratitude or moral responsability towards their LGS, what else do you have? A lot of stores are dying with all the crisis.

That is a problem, it is hard for me to find a good place for a tournament in my own city after my usual LGS got closed. I would pay 5 dollars, pounds or euros for having a nice noon with gaming people.

The future are the gaming clubs, groups of friends that manage to get some place and share the hobby together.

I agree with what BobbaFett and Mastiff just posted.

There is too much economic pressure and game store owners will have to do anything to keep their store open. If that means that 40K/miniatures are not making enough money for the usage of square footage of the store, then that store owner will make a change in product that will make money for them.

I have seen this happen to some of the game stores in my area in the past years. They used to play miniatures, now they cater to card games/ board games for to a better return rate on gross profits and then give some (smaller) space for war gaming.

I would gladly pay to play if it means to help my LGS to stay afloat.

a small waagh wrote:Just today me and two friends went into town to buy some stuff (as we had just discovered that there was a warhammer stockist in our town) and asked what days that they played. The answer was every day, but you must pay a £5 subscription fee every month. Is this a normal thing to happen or is this a bit "abnormal" for want of a better word?

As others have said this isn't "normal" in the US but if you are getting good service, nice boards, and a clean and friendly place to play then I think it isn't a very high price.

Just my humble opinion from someone who's run two game stores for 22 years. I've looked at this problem many times.

It Not A Good Idea

Why? First off, the money you collect from tables is crap. A few hundred bucks a month at most, won't go far to paying the rent, and you lost more than that from the business you turned away.

Screw worrying about people that don't support your store, and just don't worry about them. That's a side issue keeping you from focusing on making money from the customers that do support you.

The more customers you have playing games in your store, the more money that store will take in. Maximize customer hours in the store. Run events, leagues, tournaments, Painting classes. Have great tables, FREE to play on, with great scenery. Encourage gaming. Gaming sells games.

Focus also on your stock as well.. Can't sell what you don't have. Stock full lines of games, accessories, modeling supplies, scenery, etc. Out do GW at what GW does best. Get people in the store, and sell them games because you have games to sell. I had 3 guys travel an hour to my store last Tuesday to drop 500.00 on Warmachine because their local store didn't have stuff to sell them. Their loss, my gain.

Charging for tables encourages people to NOT come in, and they aren't buying if they aren't in the store.

Rambling as I'm downing 32 oz of coffee so I can go cook. I just went out and bought 100 lbs of chicken, beans, spices, rice, peppers, and marinade. Making 60 lbs of smoked chicken tomorrow, after it marinades in teriyaki tonite, and many pots of chili and sausage gumbo. Feeding 60 people at SVDM this weekend. Need to go cook.

I don't want people to pay to use my tables. I want them to come game for free. Then if they can buy something if they need it. I'll get their money at some point, not worried about it.

I will match my gaming sales against anyone charging for tables. I will match my smoked chicken against that charred lizard jerkey the ultramarines cook with their flamers and chew on all day while painting everything blue.

Must cook. Need coffee.

I find no problem with paying. After all, you are using a service that somebody else is providing: namely, terrain and gaming space. LGS's are losing the miniatures battle to online sites. However, only they can provide this service, because it takes physical space. I say take advantage of it. They own the tables, who's to say they can't charge to let you use them? Should billiard tables be free if we bring our own stuff? Should the YMCA stop charging membership simply because someone brings their own basketball?

They do it because of you few jerks who play there every week for months and months and months but buy all your stuff online.

Unfortunately, the common player has to suffer for it.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:If it's good terrain, washroom facilities, refreshment available etc in a nice environment, then why not.

Upkeep costs money. Decide if you would get your money's worth and then make the decision.

I agree with this. My ideal store would have a dozen tables with top notch terrain, clean washrooms (for a change), and be a friendly environment. And it would definitely charge money because quality is never cheap.

I think that's pretty stupid. My FLGS has plenty of tables, huge amount of terrain, and a soda machine. I don't have to pay anything.

Quantity =/= quality. A monthly $10-$15 membership fee for access to tables isn't much and it would certainly help out the store a bit.

Edit: I would gladly pay that much if it meant I could avoid wargaming stores full of manga and MTG.

ImperialTard wrote:They do it because of you few jerks who play there every week for months and months and months but buy all your stuff online.

Unfortunately, the common player has to suffer for it.

I buy very little of my 40k stuff at my FLGS. I purchase it online at about 25% off retail. So I guess I'm a jerk in your narrow opinion. I do however, purchase comic books, roleplaying game books/supplies, and other things such as dice and paints at my FLGS. If they started charging me to play in the store I'd probably start buying my comics, roleplaying, etc. online as well and build a table in my basement.

I think as long as its not an expensive fee and the LGS had nice tables terrain and good group of people i would pay a small fee.

Goddard wrote:I think that's pretty stupid. My FLGS has plenty of tables, huge amount of terrain, and a soda machine. I don't have to pay anything.

+1

the store I play at has been in business for Over 28 Years.

they sell a HUGE amount of candy and coke products, and they do not charge anything to play, they even have a sign in sheet and grant groups permanent access on a specific night at a specific table.

They have 8 game tables and one more in the private room, they do not even charge for the room, they make the money off the coke machine and the candy they sell, as well as the game supplies.

Bottom Line is, I would never pay to play at a store unless it was a tournament with prizes, If they start to charge they will lose a lot of business as my friends and I will just move the game to one of our houses.

Sounds like Games Plus

I don't have a problem with it.

Think of it this way instead. You pay to be a member of the club that gets to use the facilities "after dark".

I feel that the store-owner, who puts up with the increased electric-bill, wear-and-tear, increased clean-up and time/wages, should be compensated in some way.

This of course applies to people that play after closing time.

As for playing during normal hours and feeling that one has the "right" to play there.....well, that is up to the store policy.

And we haven't even looked at the scenario in which the store owner might feel that people buy their stuff online with discounts and then expect to play in the store. In that case a store owner might (rightly) feel that he needs some sort of compensation for his time.
He might not feel like running a free day-care facility, but rather a store.

What's wrong with a pay-for-play store? Do you think that this stuff falls like manna from the sky? Why shouldn't a store ask for a little compensation?

A store I found in Roanoke, VA charges $5 to play or $5 in purchases. He found a lot of people went for the purchases. A can of Coke, bag of chips, a candy bar all of a sudden turned into paint, some minis, even a board game; once the seal is broken, people are much more willing to shell out some dough. In the end, he still pays his rent.

I don't see the issue with paying for a quality experience.

My LGS doesn't charge for pickup games, and even began opening the store on non-business days (Although these quickly turned into business days), but charges me $10 a month for the monthly tourney, with part of that going towards the prizes. Refreshment is offered at a low price, and the place is clean with a fair amount of space and nice terrain.

Would I object if that was a little more? Nope. I pay 10-20 bucks to go to the cinema and watch a 2-hour movie, I can deal with paying it for hours and hours of fun with good people in a nice environment, and supporting my LGS in a small fashion. (I freely admit to buying from web stores, the price difference between AU and these stores is simply too much for me to pass up.)

While I can see how one would object if it was a poor experience, I really don't think you can complain too much with paying a small fee for the service the game store is providing.

DeathReaper wrote:
Bottom Line is, I would never pay to play at a store unless it was a tournament with prizes, If they start to charge they will lose a lot of business as my friends and I will just move the game to one of our houses.

The bottom line is it is not 'losing business' if the people who take thier ball and go home spend 95% of thier money outside your store and curb their conscience by buying a candybar every other week. The profit margin on a coke, 3$ paint bottle or a 1.99$ comic book is not paying the rent. It is the profit margin on that other guy who buys a 50$ land Raider that keeps you in free gaming. Buying a 75 cent bag of chips and pretend you are a paying customer is like giving a homeless man a quarter and claiming to have solved poverty with a worthless gesture.

Personally, I believe you shouldn't go out to eat if you can't tip 20%. I don't feel you should play in a public gaming space someone else pays rent on unless you can afford the 20% retail difference from online stores. If I play in a store, I owe that store at least SOME of my business. I budget for retail buys so every time I get a chance to game in public I will buy something I have been intending to buy like a boxed set. The 20% difference in cost between there and an online store is between 5-10 dollars a box. Just about what pay to play would cost. When I travel for a tourney or event, if it is in a retail location, I make it a goal to purchase something there to show my support for the day of gaming I have done there. (and not a soda or a bottle of paint)

I would be fine if we (players) would paid a small fee, that go towards upkeeping in terrian, tables, chairs, and even some of the money could go to prizes in touranment.

Tomb King wrote:We have a local store that literally runs 1 tournament for 40k every weekend. It is great and all that money comes back to players in the form of store credit. It basically guarantee's revenue for the store and makes for a guaranteed good time at least once a week if you got the time to play.

As for paying to play I would not like that because some gamers only play like once a month. That would be unfair to them to have to pay everytime they play.

We have the same system at my FLGS. Every 2-3 weeks we have an event. You pay a 5$ or 10$ and put it on a gift card for the store as an entry fee. Great system, it's not like I'm blowing 10$ and never seeing it. If I'm going to pick up some paints or glue it gives me an incentive to maybe say "Hey now that I have this 10$... I should get those Blood Crushers" and drop another 43$. It feels like I "have" to blow the giftcard, thus justifying more purchases.

augustus5 wrote:

ImperialTard wrote:They do it because of you few jerks who play there every week for months and months and months but buy all your stuff online.

Unfortunately, the common player has to suffer for it.

I buy very little of my 40k stuff at my FLGS. I purchase it online at about 25% off retail. So I guess I'm a jerk in your narrow opinion. I do however, purchase comic books, roleplaying game books/supplies, and other things such as dice and paints at my FLGS. If they started charging me to play in the store I'd probably start buying my comics, roleplaying, etc. online as well and build a table in my basement.

Obviously I'm generalizing for effect, don't get all offended because you technically don't buy 40k stuff there but otherwise patronize the store.

You're missing my point that some people never buy anything.

ImperialTard wrote:Obviously I'm generalizing for effect, don't get all offended because you technically don't buy 40k stuff there but otherwise patronize the store.

You're missing my point that some people never buy anything.

And you're missing the point that the only reason he buys anything is because he can game there for free.

It's balancing act between losing money by not charging people (and allowing non-buyers to game), and losing money by charging people (by causing buyers to simply buy elsewhere).

it's like the old maxim: "half of all advertising works. Nobody knows what half."

And you're missing the point that the only reason he buys anything is because he can game there for free.

No, I understood that. And I agree with you about all that you said.

The only thing I disagree with is his eagerness to say I'm calling him a jerk. I don't mean him.

There are people who literally buy nothing from my FLGS (Game Parlor; Chantilly, VA). Not RPGs, nor dice, nor anything. They even bring soda from other places every time they go.

This is a pretty small group of jerks I'm talking about.

When I started reading this thread, my mindset was, "F*** paying to play, I'd sooner burn down the store." Mostly because getting in a game anywhere besides my house is a two+ hour drive. Driving two hours to a FLGS, then having to shell out another $5 just to use one of their tables would definitely make me not play there.

On the flip side....if I had a FLGS down the street hosting organized events for which the cost of participation was $5 (no prizes required), or if there was a regular crowd....I wouldn't mind.

Considering the fact that the Internet can outsell many stores, I think that pay-to-play will increase. I can imagine stores that no longer sell models at all and have focused their business on having as nice an area to play in as possible. Think "The Sultan." Think real food and drinks. Think Space Marines, The Movie showing after the tournament. And of course, plenty of tournaments. Gaming, to stay alive as a brick-and-mortar store, may have to begin selling itself as a service rather than a product. To do so successfully, though, it will have to be nicer playing there than, say, in my basement.

And I would want it to stay alive - losing the gaming community because of the loss of a store would be tragic IMO and would make the hobby a lot less fun.

WUWU wrote:
Hosting a tournament is minimal effort on the stores end. It can be as easy as making a calendar of events online.

Imagine if clothing stores, for example, could post a date on facebook, and customers would organize themselves to come in, pool their money to buy items, and market your product for the day. Win.

Sure, it's probably not feasible to expect a group of Magic players to come in everyday for a tournament, but with a handful of game systems it wouldn't be far fetched to have an event everyday.

I don't know what tournaments you have been to, but the tournaments I have been to, the store has to:

Provide a structure for the tournament, and distribute that in advance
Referee rules disputes during the tournament
Construct and maintain scenery
provide prize support


Offering "open gaming" on Facebook is not running a tournament. I'm not putting down open gaming nights. They are great, but they aren't a tournament.

Da Butcha wrote:
I don't know what tournaments you have been to, but the tournaments I have been to, the store has to:

Provide a structure for the tournament, and distribute that in advance
Referee rules disputes during the tournament
Construct and maintain scenery
provide prize support

Offering "open gaming" on Facebook is not running a tournament. I'm not putting down open gaming nights. They are great, but they aren't a tournament.

Structure - Pre-established, one-time work. Missions require a short amount of time before each tourney.
Referee - Requires work. Agreed. Investment of 8 or so hours the day of the tourney.
Scenery - Can often be turned into another 'event'. Scenery construction party/contest! Best one gets a gift card to the store.
Prizes - Pay to play tournament, 100% to prizes in the form of store credit / gift cards.

Open Gaming - Agreed, but 'Gaming Nights' for specific systems do encourage attendance.

I'm not seeing the corilation between "Charging a fee to play a game that you are already buying into on the top end is paying the bills to keep the store open."

If a store wants to seriously make money, they would make more of an effort then just to have a cat sitting there playing FLGS guard to kick out all of those so called "Cheapskates".

On top of that, what if the store that charges for the playing of games is filled with D bags. Why should someone have to or even want to pay hard earned coin?

If a store wants to charge for events, or some sort of special event campaign thing, thats fine, but I'm not buying that argument that brick and morter stores are competing with the internetz and that the devil made them do it.

Quality Game stores sell themselves. These are the ones that people know in the states around them, the ones people drive hours to play at, and the ones that should be a model on HOW TO RUN A GAME STORE. Too often the wrong sort of person decides arbitrarily that "Oh, I'm going to be a millionaire, I'll run a game store and get that cash from those marks out there." and every single time they are proven wrong.

Quality breeds quality. You put on solid events, have some good deals, and don't sit around on your hump with an air of superiority and you make money.

It takes work, the money doesn't just jump into your wallet contrary to what some people out there might tell you.

Games and gaming stores are a nich product. They don't have them in wally world yet, and they don't live on main street, so when a good store opens, can do the job, and makes the grade, people WANT to go there.

They don't want to go to a place that makes them feel obligated when they have a store full of resident experts that Rules-lawyer thier way into your life, telling YOU whats what and buying your army for you. On top of then taking still even more money for you, that you would have been buying overpriced guys with in the first place. If a cat isn't having fun, you really think that you even have the right to charge them?

A good game store has a place to play. A great game store give you a reason to want to stay and play. This stuff about "Oh, so and so does it..." doesn't mean anything. If you want to charge, and people want to play, hey, bully. That's great. But when your sitting there "Hey, why arn't people coming here? Why are they traveling 2-3 hours away on thier weekend to play over at that other place?" Don't think too hard on that.

A box of guys already costs an arm and a leg, don't think that its cool to sit around there with one hand in a cat's pocket and one up his !@# and think that that is the way to make a sale.

The idea shown on the first page of charging a fee, then giving it back in the form of a store coupon/gift card for the amount spent is brilliant: if people are playing in the store, they are more than likely going to spend money in there anyway and this kind of builds up a LGS debit card of sorts. It also deals with the annoying "customers" who want to buy all of their stuff online for a cheap price then play for free-they can play for "free" by handing out a few bucks, then getting it back to spend in the store-or go home. Any patron over the age of 10, once this is rationalized to them, will quickly see how this is in no way a damaging act, but will probably accept it with open arms-the store makes money, the good customers are happy, and the jerks who buy everything online and expect to be handed a golden table by their LGS when they offer nothing in return will turn up their noses and not ruin other peoples' games. It's a perfect solution.

pretre wrote:
Structure - Pre-established, one-time work. Missions require a short amount of time before each tourney.
Referee - Requires work. Agreed. Investment of 8 or so hours the day of the tourney.
Scenery - Can often be turned into another 'event'. Scenery construction party/contest! Best one gets a gift card to the store.
Prizes - Pay to play tournament, 100% to prizes in the form of store credit / gift cards.

Open Gaming - Agreed, but 'Gaming Nights' for specific systems do encourage attendance.

But wait a minute. I thought the reason originally quoted for running tournaments was to generate revenue (in the end). The comparison was made to posting on Facebook and having customers organize themselves, pool money to buy your stuff, and market your product.

If the tournament actually COSTS payroll hours, and you roll all of the tournament fees back into prize support, then the tournament is COSTING you more money. Now it has to generate MORE revenue than open gaming/free tables/doing nothing to be worthwhile. That MIGHT happen, but it's not guaranteed.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not encouraging pay-to-play. My favorite local store (we now have 4!) has a huge open space for gaming, and hosts tournaments, campaigns, and open gaming.

However, it's not just a no-brainer, "tournaments every night" decision. The tournament has to either attract people who will buy something, or it has to make money itself. It can't just provide a gaming space for people with completed armies. If you have a great tournament which attracts people from miles away, those people will probably not be back to buy stuff, because it was a special trip for them. That tournament needs to generate revenue on its own. If you have smaller tournaments, you run the risk of them just becoming a more labor intensive form of open gaming. You are spending more effort than providing table space and scenery, for no more return than just allowing open gaming.

Finally, you have to make sure that your events for one game (say Warhammer) don't impact too much on your table space for other events (say, Magic), and ultimately hurt your sales.

I agree that open gaming and tournaments are awesome. However, I was picking up a general vibe of "You are stupid if you don't have constant events to bring people in. It's a magical way to make money!" in the thread. Stores that run tournaments DO go out of business too.

Yea my LGS has you pay 5 a day if you want to play 40k or warhammer so we just play at home.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:If it's good terrain, washroom facilities, refreshment available etc in a nice environment, then why not.

Upkeep costs money. Decide if you would get your money's worth and then make the decision.

This. If I had great terrain, excellent facilities, good hours, why wouldn't I pay? $10 US for 4 saturdays a month amounts to $2.50 per day.

That's a bargain imho.

I would say its abnormal because I've never had to pay to play somewhere. I personally would be miffed if forced to pay to play somewhere because I usually only play at my 'home' store which also happens to be the location I buy all of my stuff from and order from instead of going to GW direct simply to support the store as well as pay for any tournaments that I go to there. I've got roughly 3k points of 40k and 3k points of OOP Mechwarrior that I bought from y'all, all of my paints, brushes, glue, file, x-acto, flock etc and you're still going to charge me more? I daresay I pay plenty for those tables as is.

Da Butcha wrote:

pretre wrote:
Structure - Pre-established, one-time work. Missions require a short amount of time before each tourney.
Referee - Requires work. Agreed. Investment of 8 or so hours the day of the tourney.
Scenery - Can often be turned into another 'event'. Scenery construction party/contest! Best one gets a gift card to the store.
Prizes - Pay to play tournament, 100% to prizes in the form of store credit / gift cards.

Open Gaming - Agreed, but 'Gaming Nights' for specific systems do encourage attendance.

But wait a minute. I thought the reason originally quoted for running tournaments was to generate revenue (in the end). The comparison was made to posting on Facebook and having customers organize themselves, pool money to buy your stuff, and market your product.

If the tournament actually COSTS payroll hours, and you roll all of the tournament fees back into prize support, then the tournament is COSTING you more money. Now it has to generate MORE revenue than open gaming/free tables/doing nothing to be worthwhile. That MIGHT happen, but it's not guaranteed.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not encouraging pay-to-play. My favorite local store (we now have 4!) has a huge open space for gaming, and hosts tournaments, campaigns, and open gaming.

However, it's not just a no-brainer, "tournaments every night" decision. The tournament has to either attract people who will buy something, or it has to make money itself. It can't just provide a gaming space for people with completed armies. If you have a great tournament which attracts people from miles away, those people will probably not be back to buy stuff, because it was a special trip for them. That tournament needs to generate revenue on its own. If you have smaller tournaments, you run the risk of them just becoming a more labor intensive form of open gaming. You are spending more effort than providing table space and scenery, for no more return than just allowing open gaming.

Finally, you have to make sure that your events for one game (say Warhammer) don't impact too much on your table space for other events (say, Magic), and ultimately hurt your sales.

I agree that open gaming and tournaments are awesome. However, I was picking up a general vibe of "You are stupid if you don't have constant events to bring people in. It's a magical way to make money!" in the thread. Stores that run tournaments DO go out of business too.

I don't understand how people aren't getting this... The "tournament" is basically an illusion. You are simply defining loose parameters for gamers to organize themselves -and who are typically very good at doing so, just from the nature of the hobby- and give money to the store. Instead of one person buying a fifty dollar item at your store, you have ten people pool five dollars together and decide amongst themselves on who will get what.

As a side effect, you have people playing in your store -which is always a good thing- and people marketing your product. All with very little effort on the side of the tournament organizer... if you can't make round pairings in between stocking shelves and helping other customers you have other problems.

Luco wrote:I would say its abnormal because I've never had to pay to play somewhere. I personally would be miffed if forced to pay to play somewhere because I usually only play at my 'home' store which also happens to be the location I buy all of my stuff from and order from instead of going to GW direct simply to support the store as well as pay for any tournaments that I go to there. I've got roughly 3k points of 40k and 3k points of OOP Mechwarrior that I bought from y'all, all of my paints, brushes, glue, file, x-acto, flock etc and you're still going to charge me more? I daresay I pay plenty for those tables as is.

Blame the entitled mooches who don't support their local gaming store the way you do. Your support of your local store enables others who buy nothing from your store but monopolize the store owners space.

If everyone supported their local store the way you did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

malfred wrote:Sounds like Games Plus

Malfred, do we inadvertently know each other? Yes I was talking about Games Plus.

Best damn gaming store on the planet.

nkelsch wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Bottom Line is, I would never pay to play at a store unless it was a tournament with prizes, If they start to charge they will lose a lot of business as my friends and I will just move the game to one of our houses.

The bottom line is it is not 'losing business' if the people who take thier ball and go home spend 95% of thier money outside your store and curb their conscience by buying a candybar every other week. The profit margin on a coke, 3$ paint bottle or a 1.99$ comic book is not paying the rent. It is the profit margin on that other guy who buys a 50$ land Raider that keeps you in free gaming. Buying a 75 cent bag of chips and pretend you are a paying customer is like giving a homeless man a quarter and claiming to have solved poverty with a worthless gesture.

Personally, I believe you shouldn't go out to eat if you can't tip 20%. I don't feel you should play in a public gaming space someone else pays rent on unless you can afford the 20% retail difference from online stores. If I play in a store, I owe that store at least SOME of my business. I budget for retail buys so every time I get a chance to game in public I will buy something I have been intending to buy like a boxed set. The 20% difference in cost between there and an online store is between 5-10 dollars a box. Just about what pay to play would cost. When I travel for a tourney or event, if it is in a retail location, I make it a goal to purchase something there to show my support for the day of gaming I have done there. (and not a soda or a bottle of paint)

But it is losing business. They lose all the purchases from the gamers who play there, and all the free word of mouth adverts they give because it is the best game store on the planet. (granted I am talking about this particular store, YMMV)

my group buys most of their roleplaying books from there, as well as most of the GW stuff. (several boxed sets have been bought by myself alone)

not to mention the Dice graveyard when someone rolls 2 1's in a row on their 20 sided die, it goes straight to the Graveyard and they get a new one.

But wait a minute. I thought the reason originally quoted for running tournaments was to generate revenue (in the end). The comparison was made to posting on Facebook and having customers organize themselves, pool money to buy your stuff, and market your product.

If the tournament actually COSTS payroll hours, and you roll all of the tournament fees back into prize support, then the tournament is COSTING you more money. Now it has to generate MORE revenue than open gaming/free tables/doing nothing to be worthwhile. That MIGHT happen, but it's not guaranteed. .

100% to prizes as store credit. That means that the store gets 100% of fees paid. Say $15/person x12 people. You just made $180 plus anything else they spend while they are there.

Mannahnin wrote:

NobleSeven wrote:I think pay to play for your LGS is a ridiculous notion.

Do you also think paying for play space in a bowling alley, or a pool hall, is a ridiculous notion?

That being said, it is a nuanced issue. Many successful FLGS owners (like Mikhaila) have said they feel there are better ways to get customers to spend their money at the store.

But I don't think there's anything ridiculous about it at all.

Let me put this in perspective: when I was part of an independent game club, I was paying between $30 to $40 a month dues. But I was also getting a key to come and go as I please, lots of tables with terrain, the ability for a small fee to store armies there, and the idea I was playing with similar like minded people(ie- no douchebags) who wanted to play the same variety of games as I did, with the notion that we could play any time, any day of the week with no hassle.

Compared to $5 to play at a LGS, the ones all around me.....the former was money well spent. The LGS? Overpriced by a large margin. I could play there, or play in my various friends basement with better results, and more convience. As Mikhaila has said there are better ways to get customers to spend money then charging them. Getting them in the door is half the battle.

My 2 cents: Vote with your dollars.

I'm lucky enough to have 2 amazing LGS within 25 miles of me. Any time I go to either, I try to spend at least $20 (usually becomes more). I do this because I have a free, clean place to play, have a chance to meet new people, and have a place to hang out that isn't my apartment. Paying the difference between internet prices and full retail is the cost I'm willing to absorb for this service.

If a store charged me for table time, that's dandy too. But I've just lost all impetus to buy stock from you bar small purchases (to save on shipping) or impulse buys.

That being said, I don't think the model of a gaming club (where members pay dues) is a bad one. Heck, if a bar or Dave & Buster's equivilant had gaming tables, I'd totally pay a $10 cover to play.

I am going agree with mikhaila here, partially due to the fact that where I game it is mostly military that come to play, and when we do come, we always buy something that we need before we leave, or at least I do because I want my gaming store to stick around, and the store owner sells refreshments and whatnot.

a store is a place to buy things IMHO.. if i want to pay to play i go to a gaming club. A store is there to sell stuff, give advice etc. If GW or my FLGS started charging to play there i would vote with my feet and wallet!

My local store, Game Parlor in NOVA, went to a pay to play thing last year.

There were a lot of people spending hours in the store and who would also buy everything online.

Now you can either pay $2 to play in the store or you get a free ticket to play for every $20 you spend. Anyone that regularly supported the store before is good to go and anyone that chose to buy online now has to at least chip in something to cover electricity and whatnot.

It's not perfect (I really get annoyed being asked to show my receipt after dropping $100+ there) but I understand why they do it.

If there was a fee to play regardless of how much you spend I don't think I'd ever pay for a figure there again. They way they do it works, though, and I spend what I'd normally spend and play as I normally play. Free loaders now have to chip in something, which seems to be a good thing.