Being from norway I used to think the Space Wolves were pretty cool (SNL Miley Cyrus show anyone? ), probably just because they are kinda viking like. But now that I'm currently halfway through the novel "The Thousand Sons" from the Horus Heresy series, I've started finding the Space Wolves really bloody annoying. Almost to the point where I hope they'll all be butchered in the most gruesome way possible, against all reason, of course, since I know they won't be. Before reading this novel, I was thinking about making either a Space Wolves army or a pre-heresy World Eater army, but just a couple of chapters into "The Thousand Sons" I completely discarded the Space Wolves as an option.
Why?
There are many similarities between the way the Space Wolves and the World Eaters make war, but there are some subtle differences. Where the World Eaters will wreak as much or probably more havoc on the enemy, their "excuse" is that their bloodlust makes them incapable of stopping until there's nothing left of the enemy to destroy. Which is fine within the context of the WH40K universe. But the Space Wolves are subtly different in that the reason they completely annihilate the enemy, is that they've made their mind up to do it before even setting foot on the battlefield, even in the light of "new information". Which is quite frankly stupid and stubborn. Incredibly so. And in my mind, stubbornness and stupidity is never fine, no matter which universe you're from. I got so annoyed by Leman Russ and his stupid, brainless lapdogs that I just had to put the book down and make this post..
Are you as annoyed by stubborn, pigheaded stupidity as I am? Would you drop an army as a choice just based on "official fluff"?
That was the point of the Wolves...
They were (supposedly) created to be the final measure of authority against another legion, they are the executioners. Ruthlessness is their main trait.
Add in the fact that "The Thousand Sons" is written from the perspective of the Thousand Sons kind of gives only half the story... though after reading Prospero Burns they only just make up the lost ground.
Well, honestly, don't let a BL reading influence your army orientations that much. I read both "A Thousand Sons" and "Prospero Burns", and I think I understand what you feel. When I was reading the first book, I thought the SW were just a bunch of idiotic barbarians that had nothing to do in the IoM and only deserved annihilation. But when I read Propero Burns, I started thinking that the wolves of fenris were bloody awesome and that the TS were some treacherous villains!
So don't bother that much on BL publications, because they portray the opinions and the visions of their authors on the game, whereas you should make up your own opinion on W40K factions according to their style, their appearance, their theme, etc.
However, I kinda agree that the SW can be described as slightly stubborn and sometimes even stupid.
purplefood wrote:That was the point of the Wolves...
They were (supposedly) created to be the final measure of authority against another legion, they are the executioners. Ruthlessness is their main trait.
I'm not sure this makes chronological sense, unless the Emperor knew Horus would turn traitor. And if he did, the Emperor isn't as smart as he's made out to be.
Also, the World Eaters are ruthless. Sticking to opinions, even in the face of changing events, just because you've made your mind up, is just incredibly stupid.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Laodamia wrote:Well, honestly, don't let a BL reading influence your army orientations that much. I read both "A Thousand Sons" and "Prospero Burns", and I think I understand what you feel. When I was reading the first book, I thought the SW were just a bunch of idiotic barbarians that had nothing to do in the IoM and only deserved annihilation. But when I read Propero Burns, I started thinking that the wolves of fenris were bloody awesome and that the TS were some treacherous villains!
So don't bother that much on BL publications, because they portray the opinions and the visions of their authors on the game, whereas you should make up your own opinion on W40K factions according to their style, their appearance, their theme, etc.
That's exactly what this is about though. Their war-making style reflects an army's philosophy, and to me, that's what counts. If I shouldn't decide that by the contents in the BL novels, there's nothing else to go on.
In the end, I decided on the World Eaters (much because of this), but I found that painting the white on the pre-heresy scheme was way too time consuming, so since I would play them with the Chaos Marine Codex anyway, I went ahead and made my own take on their post-heresy paint scheme.
purplefood wrote:That was the point of the Wolves...
They were (supposedly) created to be the final measure of authority against another legion, they are the executioners. Ruthlessness is their main trait.
I'm not sure this makes chronological sense, unless the Emperor knew Horus would turn traitor. And if he did, the Emperor isn't as smart as he's made out to be.
Also, the World Eaters are ruthless. Sticking to opinions, even in the face of changing events, just because you've made your mind up, is just incredibly stupid.
The World Easters are blood crazed they keep going purely to kill. The Wolves hit hard and with everything they have but they keep their sensibilities whilst they do so.
And the Emperor made them just in case, any of the legions could have betrayed him so he had the Wolves as a last resort. I don't think even he expected Horus to betray him but i do think he had a healthy dose of paranoia about him.
wolves are the bomb traitor you just made cause we came to your planet killed all you people mortally wounded your loser primarch and cut you down we are going to finish the job besides the Sons are disliked them and the loser arhiman is trying to get in the black library but the eldar kicked his butt out you just got owned
rovian wrote:wolves are the bomb traitor you just made cause we came to your planet killed all you people mortally wounded your loser primarch and cut you down we are going to finish the job besides the Sons are disliked them and the loser arhiman is trying to get in the black library but the eldar kicked his butt out you just got owned
purplefood wrote:
The World Easters are blood crazed they keep going purely to kill. The Wolves hit hard and with everything they have but they keep their sensibilities whilst they do so.
Yeah, that's the "subtle" difference I was talking about. The difference which make the Wolves so incredibly stupid.
purplefood wrote:And the Emperor made them just in case, any of the legions could have betrayed him so he had the Wolves as a last resort. I don't think even he expected Horus to betray him but i do think he had a healthy dose of paranoia about him.
That's probably sensible, I just haven't read the specific novels that state this. Doesn't make them any less stupidly stubborn though.
purplefood wrote:
The World Easters are blood crazed they keep going purely to kill. The Wolves hit hard and with everything they have but they keep their sensibilities whilst they do so.
Yeah, that's the "subtle" difference I was talking about. The difference which make the Wolves so incredibly stupid.
purplefood wrote:And the Emperor made them just in case, any of the legions could have betrayed him so he had the Wolves as a last resort. I don't think even he expected Horus to betray him but i do think he had a healthy dose of paranoia about him.
That's probably sensible, I just haven't read the specific novels that state this. Doesn't make them any less stupidly stubborn though.
That is one of their flaws... they tend to stick by those whom they believe are right and they do so to the very end or until they have been proved completly and utterly wrong.
rovian wrote:wolves are the bomb traitor you just made cause we came to your planet killed all you people mortally wounded your loser primarch and cut you down we are going to finish the job besides the Sons are disliked them and the loser arhiman is trying to get in the black library but the eldar kicked his butt out you just got owned
Thats the spirit! keep up that attitude and the Space Wolves will have sold their souls to Khorne by the end of the next Millennium! There wasn't ever much difference between the Space Wolves and the World Eaters after all. Don't worry, in the eyes of Khorne the Wolfen is a blessing. Besides Space Puppies love killing don't they, its only natural...
In fact the fact that the Space Wolves *keep* their sensibilities makes them more prone to corruption from Khorne then the World Eaters ever were. The World Eaters lose control... the Space Wolves affirmatively choose to slaughter. I chalk it up to luck that the wolves didn't go traitor.
Also Russ totally lost that fight with Lion El'Jonson.
Didn't they have a bunch of duels over the years and eventually become friends?
One of the reasons Russ disappeared was to try and find the Lion apparently.
rovian wrote:wolves are the bomb traitor you just made cause we came to your planet killed all you people mortally wounded your loser primarch and cut you down we are going to finish the job besides the Sons are disliked them and the loser arhiman is trying to get in the black library but the eldar kicked his butt out you just got owned
Thats the spirit! keep up that attitude and the Space Wolves will have sold their souls to Khorne by the end of the next Millennium! There wasn't ever much difference between the Space Wolves and the World Eaters after all. Don't worry, in the eyes of Khorne the Wolfen is a blessing. Besides Space Puppies love killing don't they, its only natural...
In fact the fact that the Space Wolves *keep* their sensibilities makes them more prone to corruption from Khorne then the World Eaters ever were. The World Eaters lose control... the Space Wolves affirmatively choose to slaughter. I chalk it up to luck that the wolves didn't go traitor.
Also Russ totally lost that fight with Lion El'Jonson.
PWND, as they say.
rovian wrote:wolves are the bomb traitor you just made cause we came to your planet killed all you people mortally wounded your loser primarch and cut you down we are going to finish the job besides the Sons are disliked them and the loser arhiman is trying to get in the black library but the eldar kicked his butt out you just got owned
You seem to be under the mistaken belief that I play or even like the Thousand Sons. Also, was that English? You know there's something called punctuation, right?
rovian wrote:wolves are the bomb traitor you just made cause we came to your planet killed all you people mortally wounded your loser primarch and cut you down we are going to finish the job besides the Sons are disliked them and the loser arhiman is trying to get in the black library but the eldar kicked his butt out you just got owned
You seem to be under the mistaken belief that I play or even like the Thousand Sons. Also, was that English? You know there's something called punctuation, right?
Back on topic, I understand why people say that the wolves are a bit stubborn, and that they stick to their goal until the end. I guess it was made intentionally by GW. When I think about it, this character trait sounds bestial, like the reasoning of a dog or a wolf that will track its prey until the end. It kind of reinforces the image of the SW as domesticated animals.
Hehe. Saying the Space Wolves are "a bit stubborn" is like saying a tidal wave is a bit inconvenient. But I get what you're saying. Still don't make them any more appealing. And even a dog or a wolf will give up when the situation changes "beyond the initial parameters".
Tbh I never really understood WHY space wolves weren't chaos. I'm not saying that they shouldn't get their own dex (thats a different debate) but rather why their different dex wasn't chaos instead of imperial.
They were inspired by VIKINGS in space. Vikings weren't exactly a group of people known for not raiding, pillaging, raping, and general ruthlessness.
The entire Space Wolf codex would be much more compelling if they actually acted like space vikings, a band of renegades operating in the "north" of the galaxy, launching devastating raids against imperial worlds.
That is what Vikings do. They weren't "Defenders of the Peace" they were the entire reason peasants cowered to the nobles for protection, great warriors praying on the weak is what vikings were.
Honestly, Huron Blackheart and the Red Corsairs are more akin to Space Vikings then the Space Wolves ever were or will be. I'm glad he took the Wolf of Fenris from those hypocrites.
Don't write them off yet. A Thousand Sons is told from the perspective of the Thousand Sons, so there's a little bit if bias. Read Prospero Burns after, and you'll get enlightened a little bit. There's a grim side to the creation of the Wolves, but I won't say anything else. People should really watch what they say to someone who hasn't read further than a few pages in A Thousand Sons! I thought the Wolves were morons after reading A Thousand Sons also, but then I read Prospero Burns.
In Prospero Burns, which I still have mixed feelings for it further elaborates on how the Wolves truly are, specifically Russ himself.
At one point Fulgrim and Constantin Valdor are speaking with Russ and comment on how he is still "Playing the Barbarian King". Also the Wolves themselves show that they are much more than they let on and play the roles that are expected of them.
The wolves arent idiots in even the slightest of senses. If theyd halted when the "new information" came to light the TH would have killed them. 5heyre not chaos because the wolf soul cannot turn because that would be a for m of surrender and the wolf soul knows no surrender.
Contrary to popular belief the emperor sent the wolves to prospero, horus simply tricked Russ into being overly agressive and if being tricked by Horus makes you an idot then everyone is.
The simple fact is Magnus deserved everything he got for his arrogance and going against the emperors will, the SW are the perfect weapon, unrelenting unstoppable and most importantly unquestioning. If Magnus had been so obedient and pure of purpose he wouldnt have got his arse whooped.
The SW are arguably the most successful chapter of them all post heresy and they are NOT space vikings, dont let looks fool you, the practices of fenrisians resemble spartans more than anything else given their way of life.
Bad mouthing them for being as they were intended to be doesnt make sense.
The emperor never ordered astartes to preserve knowledge or get their psychic freak on, he ordered them to conquer and kill and the space wolves are VERY good at this.
If I had known that SW's were Spartans I wouldn't have chosen them!
Dammit man, I am having a hard time of it as it is trying to get some kip and now I have the image of Logan and Lucas humping away at each other like jackhammers indelibly etched in my head!
the rout wrote:The wolves arent idiots in even the slightest of senses. If theyd halted when the "new information" came to light the TH would have killed them.
I don't know who "TH" is, but if you're referring to the situation I was talking about around midway through A Thousand Sons, then (as it's described there) the SW attacks the Thousand Sons because the Thousand Sons are trying to prevent valuable knowledge from being destroyed.
the rout wrote:5heyre not chaos because the wolf soul cannot turn because that would be a for m of surrender and the wolf soul knows no surrender.
Nobody is beyond corruption.
the rout wrote:
Contrary to popular belief the emperor sent the wolves to prospero, horus simply tricked Russ into being overly agressive and if being tricked by Horus makes you an idot then everyone is.
I never said they were idiots. I said they were stupid. Big difference.
the rout wrote:
The simple fact is Magnus deserved everything he got for his arrogance and going against the emperors will, the SW are the perfect weapon, unrelenting unstoppable and most importantly unquestioning. If Magnus had been so obedient and pure of purpose he wouldnt have got his arse whooped.
Being unquestioning is the same as being stupid. Look it up.
www.dictionary.com wrote:
ques·tion·ing   
[kwes-chuh-ning]
–adjective
1.
indicating or implying a question: a questioning tone in her voice.
2.
characterized by or indicating intellectual curiosity; inquiring: an alert and questioning mind.
If "being questioning" is indicative of intellect, then "being unquestioning" is indicative of the lack of intellect.
the rout wrote:
The SW are arguably the most successful chapter of them all post heresy and they are NOT space vikings, dont let looks fool you, the practices of fenrisians resemble spartans more than anything else given their way of life.
Everything about the SW points to them being inspired by vikings. Runes, runepriests, fenris, bearded maniacs driven by honor and bloodlust. In fact, there's very little besides their technology that DOESN'T point to vikings. In fact, there's NOTHING that indicates that they're Spartans. It's the Sons of Guilliman, the Ultramarines who are inspired by the Spartans.
the rout wrote:
Bad mouthing them for being as they were intended to be doesnt make sense.
It does, if "being as they were intended" is a stupid thing to be. Which everything indicates that they are. I get a feeling you are a blindly "loyal" Space Wolf player.
the rout wrote:
The emperor never ordered astartes to preserve knowledge or get their psychic freak on, he ordered them to conquer and kill and the space wolves are VERY good at this.
No. The emperor ordered the Astartes to bring the galaxy to compliance. That doesn't mean killing everything in their way. In fact, it doesn't necessarily involve killing at all.
purplefood wrote:Didn't they have a bunch of duels over the years and eventually become friends?
One of the reasons Russ disappeared was to try and find the Lion apparently.
I don't know about finding the Lion, but they did, as reads in 'Thousand Sons' become 'oath-sworn brothers in arms', which would imply they got past the several brawls they've had.....the Lion knocked the Wolf King out though . Their rivalry is certainly nothing to inspire the tensions between the Wolves and the Dark Angels, but something distorted over time.
---
The Space Wolves are intended to be, and in most ways are, Vikings. The tribes they come from on Fenris are very much like the Vikings, where the bloodshed and raiding is far more to the fore. The Ultramarines are the ones inspired by Greco-Roman society and the Spartans.
The Wolves may not be the barbarians that they're image makes people believe, and be content to allow that stereotype so people miss the intelligence and cunning they may infact possess, but they remain inspired by the Norse.
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OP: I highly recommend reading 'Prospero Burns' before you make any major decisions, it shines a far more complimentary light on the Wolves, but I personally would and have dropped an army on the basis of the fluff. If you can't look at your army and think that they look awesome, and you enjoy any story your characters may have, you'll find enthusiasm for them lacking.
I however didn't mind the Space Wolves from 'Thousand Sons'. Doggedly resolute (Ah, bad puns ) in their beliefs perhaps, and rather savage in the way they make war, but there's a certain appeal to that savagery to me. The fortitude and energy they show across the entirety of the book, consistantly being likened to an elemental force of nature is also quite appealing. They're the trained war dog, the hunter and executioner, that you give an order and let loose to fulfill that order and stop over anything in their way.
Astartes are weapons and nothing more so being unquestioning of order is the ideal trait for them.
And this library, did the SW just go hey books! kill em? no the library was attacked because the enemy was in their not because the SW just go around destroying knowledge. They also only kill those who dont comply not just anyone as you probably already know but since your beind pedantic youve probably not considered stating. And how the hell can people who simply memorize everything and kill with such efficency be stupid? they dont question authority as was my context not unquestioning of the world, theyre all about fate and wyrd and what not.
And they are like spartans if you read between the lines, maybe at a superificial level their all norse but look at their way of life dude. They drown all mutants at birth like spartans, train from childhood like spartans, (and not in schools like smurfs) if they dont grasp an axe their killed like spartans and they love war above all else like spartans. They act like spartans but look like norsemen whereas the smurfs dont look like spartans and act like...... well i cant say lol.
And how is being as the emperor intended stupid? is he stupid now? wow dude your pedestal really high up your arse.
Just out of curiosity whats the difference between an idiot and someone whose stupid? an idiot is a stupid person and a stupid person is an idiot.
And yes im a loyal SW player. Not blind just loyal, just like the lovely wolfies.
BTW FLAMING OTHER USERS IS NEVER ACCEPTABLE its easy to quote the hell out of something and lose context in an attempt to be right.
I don't understand why anyone would go to the trouble of designing a load of Nordic influenced fluff, design models with Nordic paraphenalia, and then source the characteristics from a different culture?
A bat has wings but it ain't a bird.
A dolphin has fins but it ain't a fish.
Am sure a cursory bit of research would throw up such behaviour more widely practiced than soley in Sparta.
SgtSixkilla wrote:*phew* Oh good, I thought I was the only one to whom this stuff mattered.
You're not the only one. Not by a long shot. One of my armies is Salamanders; and I almost repainted the whole thing after reading "Salamander" by Nick Kyme. 100 pages into that novel and I was convinced they were a bunch of cry babies. Fortunately, I'm a bit stubborn and ended up finishing that novel ( *not* my favorite by any stretch) and also read Firedrake. Other than a few minor lapses into cry baby land, Firedrake showed them in a light more befitting space marines.
Point is, if you want fluff on Space Wolves, read Prospero Burns. It gives a completely different take on what happened.. Made me want to start a Space Wolf army.. if I just didn't have that half completed Dark Eldar army..
Another thing we need to consider when aproaching this topic is that the SW in Prospero Burns and the modern day 40kSW are different in their behaviour. As stated by the author of Prospero Burns the SW during the heresy were still developing their traditions and mindsets, they had not yet fully established who they were and as such did not act as SW of later generations act. Just something to ponder about. 10,000 years is a long time and things change no matter how much you try not to
i collect SW but im a big fan of thousand sons purely as they aren't actually evil just as Magnus says everyone has a path and you ca't run from it the universe always makes you tread the path wether you like it or not or words to that effect.
and even the thousand sons aren't evil now most of them are mindless armour suits controlled by sorcerers gone mad i just hope the propehcies of magnus are true and the ravens of blood redeem them
The SW were created to be the executioners, and by the events in TS they had already "removed" 2 chapters (there's a reason UM have so many more battle brothers than average) - the 2 "missing" chapters from the original 20 arent, at all, missing.
nosferatu1001 wrote:The SW were created to be the executioners, and by the events in TS they had already "removed" 2 chapters (there's a reason UM have so many more battle brothers than average) - the 2 "missing" chapters from the original 20 arent, at all, missing.
But aren't Sw's ruthless and execute every last one heretical or not?
and another problem is wouldn't the records be passed on by word of mouth etc from the ex-chapters but currently everything is just destroyed not even rumours or names exist
The Emperor makes every SM and Primarch vow never to speak of the 2 missing primarchs as well as destroying all records of them. They must have been more mutated than sanguinius or some other such naughty thing for the but have it seem as if they never existed.
Plus the chapters arent missing their probs in the ultramarines given by then end of the heresy 1 in every 2 SM were UM. Thered be no need to destroy the chapters they probably never met their primarchs.
Oh and i wholeheartedly agree that modern day SW are very different than The Rout, though as my username would suggest i prefer the rout, ruthless unstoppable and accompanied by a primarch killer, what in IoM is tougher than a primarch killer? Oh and ragnar rules....
Alpha - they didnt execute the legions, just mostly their primarchs. Noone knows why - or at least "why" hasnt yet appeared in print. Hell, before the Heresy novels it hadnt been confirmed it was SW that were responsible.
Last I looked ADB had put up figures for pre-heresy legions - avg size of about 100,000 marines, UM and SW nearer 250,000 (hmm, where did the extras come from I wonder )
Post Heresy you have each legion being split into chapters - I think UM were roughly 36 chapters. So that's 250,000 -> 36,000 from a chapter not as heavily hit as others.
nosferatu1001 wrote:The SW were created to be the executioners, and by the events in TS they had already "removed" 2 chapters (there's a reason UM have so many more battle brothers than average) - the 2 "missing" chapters from the original 20 arent, at all, missing.
To be honest, although reaaally strong hints are given in that direction in "prospero burns", we never clearly read about the story of the two missing legions. I think we should keep these thoughts as speculations for the moment.
I love dogs, I think wolves are cool and vikings are as well, my last name is even Thor, but the Space Wolves are a bunch of wasted ingrates, completely slowed and right behind the Ultramarines in their pimp-position. They are the chapter I dislike most, mainly due to being slowed, aggressive morons. Yeah, they drink. Awesome. They are made to appeal kiddies and all the guys I know who are Wolves-players have more than 1 negative trait in common and I see not the brightest bulbs siding with them either.
Whereas the amazing Thousand Sons are unique and interesting. Their story is a tragic one and they didn't join Chaos just to become evil, they were forced to. That puts them into the tragic category, something that few villains in 40k can claim. My (40k) heart belongs to them and I feel justified, God-approven HATE hate HATE for Wolves.
So yes, if you can play any chapter but them. Wolf Wolfgar Mc Wolfson, drinking out of his gigantic Wolf-horn, while sitting on his gigantic wolf, Wolfy, with his Wolfcoat, Wolfshield and Wolfhammer is not who you want to associate with. there are cooler legions.
nosferatu1001 wrote:The SW were created to be the executioners, and by the events in TS they had already "removed" 2 chapters (there's a reason UM have so many more battle brothers than average) - the 2 "missing" chapters from the original 20 arent, at all, missing.
To be honest, although reaaally strong hints are given in that direction in "prospero burns", we never clearly read about the story of the two missing legions. I think we should keep these thoughts as speculations for the moment.
Indeed
The First Heretic goes further in to the Ultramarines containing elements of at least one of the missing, but it's speculation and rumour and even the Word Bearers say this.
The whole Executioner thing could just mean that they execute anything that they get sent to kill, doesn't necessarily mean other that they were created to kill Primarchs and Astartes. I think it's Longfang who says that the Space Wolves get sent to do the jobs that other Legions don't want to do, which I took to be the thankless tasks like the assault on the Quietude.
It's just the way the Space Wolves deem themselves. If Russ landed on any other planet and they had a different Primarch their outlook could've been different. As with the other Legions when the Primarchs were reunited with them they adopted the styles and teachings of their founder.
With these hints about the two missing Legions yeah, you can make ties, but I'm sure we'll never find out and a lot of it will just have a simple explanation.
And the whole Leman Russ being sent after Magnus, who better to send than someone that really really doesn't like who they're after. At least you know they'll get the job done and not convinced otherwise.
The Wolves aren't dum or mindless, it's a mask they wear for an image.
Mit Gas wrote:
Whereas the amazing Thousand Sons are unique and interesting. Their story is a tragic one and they didn't join Chaos just to become evil, they were forced to. .
nosferatu1001 wrote:The SW were created to be the executioners, and by the events in TS they had already "removed" 2 chapters (there's a reason UM have so many more battle brothers than average) - the 2 "missing" chapters from the original 20 arent, at all, missing.
To be honest, although reaaally strong hints are given in that direction in "prospero burns", we never clearly read about the story of the two missing legions. I think we should keep these thoughts as speculations for the moment.
Indeed
The whole Executioner thing could lust mean that they execute anything that they get sent to kill, doesn't necessarily mean other that they were created to kill Primarchs and Astartes. I think it's Longfang who says that the Space Wolves get sent to do the jobs that other Legions don't want to do, which I took to be the thankless tasks like the assault on the Quietude.
It's just the way the Space Wolves deem themselves. If Russ landed on any other planet and they had a different Primarch their outlook could've been different. As with the other Legions when the Primarchs were reunited with them they adopted the styles and teachings of their founder.
With these hints about the two missing Legions yeah, you can make ties, but I'm sure we'll never find out and a lot of it will just have a simple explanation.
And the whole Leman Russ being sent after Magnus, who better to send than someone that really really doesn't like who they're after. At least you know they'll get the job done and not convinced otherwise.
The Wolves aren't dum or mindless, it's a mask they wear for an image.
Mit Gas wrote:
Whereas the amazing Thousand Sons are unique and interesting. Their story is a tragic one and they didn't join Chaos just to become evil, they were forced to. .
Yes, by their Primarch
No, by circumstances/fate/Tzeentch. They were claimed by Tzeentch long before Magnus was reunited with his sons. Magnus dealt with Tzeentch (remember that deal with losing one of his eyes - that stopped the mutation, which claimed Ahriman's brother who in turn cast the Rubric many, many years later) long before he pledged his loyalty to him. I'd say the Thousand Sons were one of the finest plans of Tzeentch. And everyone was deceived by him. Still, the Wolves acted like retards, kinda like the Emperorin this case. ^_^
Mit Gas wrote:
No, by circumstances/fate/Tzeentch. They were claimed by Tzeentch long before Magnus was reunited with his sons. Magnus dealt with Tzeentch (remember that deal with losing one of his eyes - that stopped the mutation, which claimed Ahriman's brother who in turn cast the Rubric many, many years later) long before he pledged his loyalty to him. I'd say the Thousand Sons were one of the finest plans of Tzeentch. And everyone was deceived by him. Still, the Wolves acted like retards, kinda like the Emperorin this case. ^_^
Magnus arrogance and belief that he knew everything about the warp and its residents was his and his Legions undoing. He made a deal with things that he thought he had power over and it bit him in the donkey.
It's a tale with an ironic twist, both the Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons ignored the edict of Nikea, Magnus was just to big headed about the whole thing and thought he knew best trying to show
the Emperor Horus betrayal by Sorcery. Things would've been different if he had acted as the Emperor had commanded.
rovian wrote:No the wolves will triumph we kick arse
and we like orks no he realisied kids and was the better man
at purplefood i said i crumped yo stuff
Pleeeaaase, put some punctuation in your sentences.
I started to collect SW. Then I read A thousand Sons. And I almost wanted to trade away my SW because they are the biggest hypocrites on the galaxy. "Dur, our Rune Priests get their powers from the planet! Yes sir! Ignore the fact that it was shown in the book that this was not true at all, that the RPs drew their power from the Warp the same as any Librarian."
To make it worse, after they caused the Edict of Nikea, they continued to use their rune priests when all librarians were banned!
akaean wrote:Tbh I never really understood WHY space wolves weren't chaos. I'm not saying that they shouldn't get their own dex (thats a different debate) but rather why their different dex wasn't chaos instead of imperial.
The SW are essentially a chaos army serving under the protection of the Emperor. They have sorcerers (er, rune priests), exhibit tremendous amounts of mutation, and worship false gods. Not to mention that they were serving the ends of Horus and the traitor legions when they turned on the Thousand Sons.
The only thing that prevents them from turning to Chaos is that they're opportunists who get a better deal from the Emperor, who tolerates their essential Chaotic nature.
If the Emperor had sided with Magnus and allowed him to stop the brutal and unprovoked attack by the puppies on Prospero, the Thousand Sons would have remained loyal and provided a much better asset to the IoM than the renegade Space Wolves.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Pilau - no, they really are the Executioners. That is their role - to "do the unthinkable"
And what is the MOST unthinkable thing to a standard SM? Hint: it's repeated a million times throughout the Heresy.
Yeah, marine vs marine, I know I know, but until there is a definite concrete 'Leman killed Primarch 2' then i'm reserving the right to disagree.
I would say the most unthinkable thing for a standard Space Marine would be to betray the Emperor
Not met Russ yet in Prospero Burns, just up to the part where Hawser is collecting the tales of Longfang.
Actually Nos - I have been thinking on this and maybe would kind of agree, it would be one of the reasons that the Space Wolves seem such a dour lot and keep themselves to themselves. You don't really want to be making friends and then one day maybe having to go kill them.
Mit Gas wrote:I love dogs, I think wolves are cool and vikings are as well, my last name is even Thor, but the Space Wolves are a bunch of wasted ingrates, completely slowed and right behind the Ultramarines in their pimp-position. They are the chapter I dislike most, mainly due to being slowed, aggressive morons. Yeah, they drink. Awesome. They are made to appeal kiddies and all the guys I know who are Wolves-players have more than 1 negative trait in common and I see not the brightest bulbs siding with them either.
Whereas the amazing Thousand Sons are unique and interesting. Their story is a tragic one and they didn't join Chaos just to become evil, they were forced to. That puts them into the tragic category, something that few villains in 40k can claim. My (40k) heart belongs to them and I feel justified, God-approven HATE hate HATE for Wolves.
So yes, if you can play any chapter but them. Wolf Wolfgar Mc Wolfson, drinking out of his gigantic Wolf-horn, while sitting on his gigantic wolf, Wolfy, with his Wolfcoat, Wolfshield and Wolfhammer is not who you want to associate with. there are cooler legions.
Really?
I chose SW's because I like Nordic myth and not because I am a juvenile.
I chose to get SW's when new to the hobby and before knowing they were a newly refurbished army with shiney stuff and the bandwagon to despise.
I would be very grateful for you to point out this negative flaw that I have in common with all other SW collectors.
Being slowed I have absolutely no clue what it might be.
But if you hate fictional soldiers so much you have have a few issues to deal with before lambasting others.
akaean wrote:Tbh I never really understood WHY space wolves weren't chaos. I'm not saying that they shouldn't get their own dex (thats a different debate) but rather why their different dex wasn't chaos instead of imperial.
The SW are essentially a chaos army serving under the protection of the Emperor. They have sorcerers (er, rune priests), exhibit tremendous amounts of mutation, and worship false gods. Not to mention that they were serving the ends of Horus and the traitor legions when they turned on the Thousand Sons.
The only thing that prevents them from turning to Chaos is that they're opportunists who get a better deal from the Emperor, who tolerates their essential Chaotic nature.
If the Emperor had sided with Magnus and allowed him to stop the brutal and unprovoked attack by the puppies on Prospero, the Thousand Sons would have remained loyal and provided a much better asset to the IoM than the renegade Space Wolves.
I don't think that the TScould have remained loyal if they had wanted to. There were just too many things stacked against them. The highest one being Magnus's deal with the daemon prince of Tzeentch(or perhaps Tzeentch himself) to keep the rampant mutation the TS suffered at bay. The DP could have reneged on their deal at any time he wanted, causing the previous mutations to once again take over the TS(as he did end up doing to force Magnus to ally with Horus). Add to that Magnus being an idiot and breaching the part of the webway the Emperor was working with from the golden throne.
The TS were a doomed legion from the beginning, much like the other 2 nameless legions who were destroyed. Their bodies channeled too much warp energy. While this allowed them to be awesome sorcerers, without the protection of Tzeentch it also caused uncontrollable mutation.
Personally I have to wonder why the Emperor didn't try to find a way to save them himself. He was able to create Magnus, who was able to channel that much warp energy without mutating. Why couldn't he solve the problem of the TS mutations?
They really are a "tragic hero". They were doomed from the start. I think their best fate could have been following through with what Magnus wanted, just let the SW kill them off and die with honor. Without the TS it is entirely possible that Horus wouldn't have even breached the Palace on Terra.
I wonder if the TS could break away from Chaos if Ahriman was ever able to find something to reverse the rubric and still keep the mutations in check. At that point they would have no reason to side with chaos, other than the whole SWs trying to kill them, which if they found out that it was Horus that caused it would possibly make them want to break from Chaos even more. Of course, I'm not sure if Magnus would ever be able to un-DP himself.
I got the impression from Prospero Burns/Thousand Sons that the Wolves were not stupid/bloodthirsty...just utterly dedicated to the Allfather and purely clinical/focused in carrying out his sentence.
However, Abnett lost me about half way through Prospero. Great start to that novel...then just really degraded IMO. In particular;
Spoiler:
He wet leopard growled while doing a wet leopard growl and hissed a wet leopard growl while lying like a wolf and panting, then did a wet leopard growl like a predator waiting for his prey, just like a wolf except he did a wet leopard growl. Yeah, we get it Abnett, they're SPACE WOLVES *WET LEOPARD GROWL*.
Rune Priest arent librarians and therefore not banned by the edicts of nikea. They do use the warp tis true but not to the extent librarians do, they dont even need nor use psychic hoods.
Not to mention their power come from psychically imbued runes so their not really librarians.
As for the mutation it was a wholly intended thing created by the emperor to give the wolves an edge over other marines, the cup of the wulfen is from terra after all.
And why are fenrisian gods false gods btw? belief makes it real in the warp therfore the fenrisians have created their own mini gods which must go part way to explaining no wolves falling to chaos as far as i can tell. The 13th live in the warp and the RP are unprotected and still no chaos wolves.
The barbarism is the mask the cunning is hidden, theyre not stupid and are possibly even one of the smartest legions given their obssesive inteligence gathering and lack of books.
And i chose SW because i loved ragnar not because im a slow, sounds like someones a bit jealous of the most succesful chapter.....
13th black crusade, first war for armageddon, and TS death... i rest my wolfcase.
oh and NO codex astartes, war must be pretty simple when you got a decision making book, if you ask me the codex chapters are stupid, they cant even think for themselves let alone act for themselves.
akaean wrote:Tbh I never really understood WHY space wolves weren't chaos. I'm not saying that they shouldn't get their own dex (thats a different debate) but rather why their different dex wasn't chaos instead of imperial.
The SW are essentially a chaos army serving under the protection of the Emperor. They have sorcerers (er, rune priests), exhibit tremendous amounts of mutation, and worship false gods. Not to mention that they were serving the ends of Horus and the traitor legions when they turned on the Thousand Sons.
The only thing that prevents them from turning to Chaos is that they're opportunists who get a better deal from the Emperor, who tolerates their essential Chaotic nature.
If the Emperor had sided with Magnus and allowed him to stop the brutal and unprovoked attack by the puppies on Prospero, the Thousand Sons would have remained loyal and provided a much better asset to the IoM than the renegade Space Wolves.
I don't think that the TScould have remained loyal if they had wanted to. There were just too many things stacked against them. The highest one being Magnus's deal with the daemon prince of Tzeentch(or perhaps Tzeentch himself) to keep the rampant mutation the TS suffered at bay. The DP could have reneged on their deal at any time he wanted, causing the previous mutations to once again take over the TS(as he did end up doing to force Magnus to ally with Horus). Add to that Magnus being an idiot and breaching the part of the webway the Emperor was working with from the golden throne.
The TS were a doomed legion from the beginning, much like the other 2 nameless legions who were destroyed. Their bodies channeled too much warp energy. While this allowed them to be awesome sorcerers, without the protection of Tzeentch it also caused uncontrollable mutation.
Personally I have to wonder why the Emperor didn't try to find a way to save them himself. He was able to create Magnus, who was able to channel that much warp energy without mutating. Why couldn't he solve the problem of the TS mutations?
They really are a "tragic hero". They were doomed from the start. I think their best fate could have been following through with what Magnus wanted, just let the SW kill them off and die with honor. Without the TS it is entirely possible that Horus wouldn't have even breached the Palace on Terra.
I wonder if the TS could break away from Chaos if Ahriman was ever able to find something to reverse the rubric and still keep the mutations in check. At that point they would have no reason to side with chaos, other than the whole SWs trying to kill them, which if they found out that it was Horus that caused it would possibly make them want to break from Chaos even more. Of course, I'm not sure if Magnus would ever be able to un-DP himself.
"apparently" take this not as fact but as tall rumour that the reason abbaddon wants the blood ravens dead and or chaos is so that they can stop the reclaimations of the thousand sonshow they plan to do this is unknown even in rumour but im guessing its something to do with blood ravens "if they are" TH having the pure magnus geneseed free from any chaos influence still doesn't account for DP magnus re transformation
the rout wrote:And why are fenrisian gods false gods btw? belief makes it real in the warp therfore the fenrisians have created their own mini gods which must go part way to explaining no wolves falling to chaos as far as i can tell. The 13th live in the warp and the RP are unprotected and still no chaos wolves.
...sounds like someones a bit jealous of the most succesful chapter.....
I was just going through my Chaos Codex, and came across a lovely fluff section concerning the capture of the Wolf of Fenris by the Red Corsairs.
Chaos Codex, pg 59 wrote: On the starboard side, it seemed at first that the Red Corsairs might be held out of the gun decks. Then without warning, several of the Space Wolves turned on their brethren, attacking them from behind before surrendering to the mercy of the Blood Reaver. They recanted their oaths to the Space Wolves, Leman Russ and the Emperor, and swore new pledges of loyalty to Huron. As a reward for their treachery, Blackheart granted them command of the Wolf of Fenris.
well look at that, SEVERAL Space Wolves decided to recant their oaths to Russ and the Emporer and join up with Huron Blackheart. Nobody is beyond corruption... I'd wager the Wolves are especially vulnerable, due to being proud, arrogant, and violent.
the rout wrote:And why are fenrisian gods false gods btw? belief makes it real in the warp therfore the fenrisians have created their own mini gods which must go part way to explaining no wolves falling to chaos as far as i can tell. The 13th live in the warp and the RP are unprotected and still no chaos wolves.
They're not any more false than the Chaos Gods, but according to the Inquisition, it's Heresy. If they weren't Astartes, they would have been purged long ago.
It's only the (questionable) continued influence of the Emperor that kept them from being obliterated during the Horus Heresy.
Khisanth Magus wrote:I don't think that the TS could have remained loyal if they had wanted to. There were just too many things stacked against them. The highest one being Magnus's deal with the daemon prince of Tzeentch(or perhaps Tzeentch himself) to keep the rampant mutation the TS suffered at bay. The DP could have reneged on their deal at any time he wanted, causing the previous mutations to once again take over the TS(as he did end up doing to force Magnus to ally with Horus). Add to that Magnus being an idiot and breaching the part of the webway the Emperor was working with from the golden throne.
Given that the Emperor bargained with the Chaos Gods to create the Primarchs in the first place and then betrayed them, I think he could have defended the Thousand Sons from some of Tzeentch's influence.
LOL i said none of them have turned chaos not not none of them have turned renegade. Several wolves have turned their back on the imperium but their just rebels not chaos marines, and before you say it yes their is a huuuuuuge difference between the two.
Nikea was changed in the heresy books. It used to be that sorcery was banned but psykers were allowed.
And you can't pull the SW are mutated card because so are navigators. The Emperor let them live and prosper why should anyone think themselves above him and try to 'cleanse' them?
the rout wrote:LOL i said none of them have turned chaos not not none of them have turned renegade. Several wolves have turned their back on the imperium but their just rebels not chaos marines, and before you say it yes their is a huuuuuuge difference between the two.
I hate to break it to you, but when you roll with Huron Blackheart... you're a Chaos Space marine. Not that there is anything wrong with that, Blackheart is one of the most badass charachters in 40k, but to say he isn't chaos is just foolish.
has anyone read the story in tales of heresy? the one with the wolves and the dark eldar? I think that was the only story involving the space wolves I ever enjoyed.
akaean wrote:I hate to break it to you, but when you roll with Huron Blackheart... you're a Chaos Space marine. Not that there is anything wrong with that, Blackheart is one of the most badass charachters in 40k, but to say he isn't chaos is just foolish.
True, these renegade SW can pretty much be described as chaos marines by now. They're not just renegades, they're probably chaos worshipers.
But since we are comparing SW and TS, well let's just remember that the SW only had a few battle brothers turning renegade, whereas the entire TS legion now consists of chaotic minions. So we can't really point out the "wolf of fenris incident" to say that the SW are rubbish.
akaean wrote:I hate to break it to you, but when you roll with Huron Blackheart... you're a Chaos Space marine. Not that there is anything wrong with that, Blackheart is one of the most badass charachters in 40k, but to say he isn't chaos is just foolish.
True, these renegade SW can pretty much be described as chaos marines by now. They're not just renegades, they're probably chaos worshipers.
But since we are comparing SW and TS, well let's just remember that the SW only had a few battle brothers turning renegade, whereas the entire TS legion now consists of chaotic minions. So we can't really point out the "wolf of fenris incident" to say that the SW are rubbish.
To be fair, in the case of the TS, it wasn't really their choice to turn to Chaos. For the most part they were all very loyal to the Imperium. Even after the Imperium had basically turned their back on the TS after the edict of Nikea. Whereas all the other Traitor Legions willingly turned to Chaos and killed off any loyalists in their midst. Magnus only turned to the Chaos Gods when there was no other way to save his legion. Then there was Arhiman's boneheaded attempt to save them without doing enough research and ended up turning the lot of them into soulless suits of armor.
On the topic of the Russ/Lion-fistfight:
They fought for days like equals, but when Russ realized how silly the fight was in the first place, he broke out in laughter. This REALLY made el'Johnson pissed, and thus he KO-ed Russ when he didn't even consider landing another blow.
PS: If i sound too much like a fanboy, it's probably some kind of nationalism.
akaean wrote:I hate to break it to you, but when you roll with Huron Blackheart... you're a Chaos Space marine. Not that there is anything wrong with that, Blackheart is one of the most badass charachters in 40k, but to say he isn't chaos is just foolish.
True, these renegade SW can pretty much be described as chaos marines by now. They're not just renegades, they're probably chaos worshipers.
But since we are comparing SW and TS, well let's just remember that the SW only had a few battle brothers turning renegade, whereas the entire TS legion now consists of chaotic minions. So we can't really point out the "wolf of fenris incident" to say that the SW are rubbish.
To be fair, in the case of the TS, it wasn't really their choice to turn to Chaos. For the most part they were all very loyal to the Imperium. Even after the Imperium had basically turned their back on the TS after the edict of Nikea. Whereas all the other Traitor Legions willingly turned to Chaos and killed off any loyalists in their midst. Magnus only turned to the Chaos Gods when there was no other way to save his legion. Then there was Arhiman's boneheaded attempt to save them without doing enough research and ended up turning the lot of them into soulless suits of armor.
The SW on the Wolf of Fenrs didn't really have a choice...
They could die or join Chaos, some chose Chaos, most chose to die.
But they dont neccasarily worship chaos your just guessing and since no other SW has ever fallen to chaos even the 13th who have been in the warp for ten thousand years i think its highly unlikely, especially since they already praise many gods of fenris. Renegade is against imperial agenda, chaos is a different religion, those on the wolf of fenris changed political views and nothing anywhere says they chose new gods.
Anyhow this is neither here nor there this thread is about the SW intelligence which in my opinion is moot point, they are by no measure stupid and regardless of whether you like their fluff or not they are arguably the most intelligent and able legion if not the most.
I am bias but trying not to be but nobody else in this thread even seems to be trying to be objective.
Khisanth Magus wrote:To be fair, in the case of the TS, it wasn't really their choice to turn to Chaos. For the most part they were all very loyal to the Imperium. Even after the Imperium had basically turned their back on the TS after the edict of Nikea. Whereas all the other Traitor Legions willingly turned to Chaos and killed off any loyalists in their midst. Magnus only turned to the Chaos Gods when there was no other way to save his legion. Then there was Arhiman's boneheaded attempt to save them without doing enough research and ended up turning the lot of them into soulless suits of armor.
True, the TS were loyal to the emperor when they were banned from Imperial Law, and it is a recurrent argument to say they are fundamentally some good guys. But since then, they all willingly turned to chaos (at least the ones that didn't end up being sealed in their armour, but even these marines would have signed in if they had been capable of it).
So, the SW probably look a bit "renegade" and suspicious with their long hair and their bad manners, but the TS are definitely a lot worse.
i think that dropping armies on fluff is quite dumb and would not do it besides space woves are the victor therefore they right history so read a book on space wolves as the whining losing chaos lost and then cried to GW
The thing that kinda got me when i read Prospero Burns was that yes the TS used their powers,
they were ignorant and believed what they were doing was for the "greater good" but the Space wolves have wulfen,
they are mutations which they use as a weapon, not only this but they have rune priests, who also use powers of the warp,
after they are banned, yes not to the same degree but are still used. Why were they allowed to? Why show compasion for one and not the other?
But then again, why have the SW in the first place unless He knew that the Heresy would happen? In which case why let it happen?
Ah the many questions of the fluff.
But saying that, its only one side to it, the SW were also probably "tricked" into doing what they did,
either that or the emperor really does have no idea and deserved everything he got.. my two cents
Mit Gas wrote:Whereas the amazing Thousand Sons are unique and interesting. Their story is a tragic one and they didn't join Chaos just to become evil, they were forced to. That puts them into the tragic category, something that few villains in 40k can claim. My (40k) heart belongs to them and I feel justified, God-approven HATE hate HATE for Wolves.
So yes, if you can play any chapter but them. Wolf Wolfgar Mc Wolfson, drinking out of his gigantic Wolf-horn, while sitting on his gigantic wolf, Wolfy, with his Wolfcoat, Wolfshield and Wolfhammer is not who you want to associate with. there are cooler legions.
Uhm......fanboy much?
Seriously, another topic about bashin the SWs? No offense but haven't we been through this already?
I never really understood WHY space wolves weren't chaos. I'm not saying that they shouldn't get their own dex (thats a different debate) but rather why their different dex wasn't chaos instead of imperial.
They were inspired by VIKINGS in space. Vikings weren't exactly a group of people known for not raiding, pillaging, raping, and general ruthlessness.
The entire Space Wolf codex would be much more compelling if they actually acted like space vikings, a band of renegades operating in the "north" of the galaxy, launching devastating raids against imperial worlds.
That is what Vikings do. They weren't "Defenders of the Peace" they were the entire reason peasants cowered to the nobles for protection, great warriors praying on the weak is what vikings were.
Honestly, Huron Blackheart and the Red Corsairs are more akin to Space Vikings then the Space Wolves ever were or will be. I'm glad he took the Wolf of Fenris from those hypocrites.
You see, you have given voice to the not all true stereotype about vikings. Yes the Space Wolves are based on Viking culture, anyone with two eyes could see that BUT Viking culture isn't exactly what you say. Yes they were raiders, pillagers, and at most times ruthless but the most gruesome acts Vikings preformed were usually the raids. Put it simple, they ran in scared the crap out of everyone, killed anyone who tried to stop them and took everything of value. The horror stories about them being demonized bloodthirsty pagans intent on slaughter is nothing more than crock cooked up by those who were scared of them or ploy stories used by the vikings to scare people into giving up without a fight.
The Scandinavian area in that time was barren so the people became raiders and hard fighters, much like the Space Wolves themselves.
So my question is: Why is it so wrong for the 40k version of the vikings to be Imperial? The Space wolves use similar tactics to the vikings, have the same sort of world/culture/way of life. The SWs are BASED on vikings, not entirely like them.
Methinks a certain Chaos player has a little Wulfen envy
Almost ;-) I'm really a dirty eldar player who is starting csm because I think tradgedy is more compelling then mary sue wolf mcwolfenson and his wolf claws...
To be honest I actually do respect the imperial fists, I think dorn was a first rate primarch, and if I had to paint sm, they'd be yellow.
SgtSixkilla wrote:And even a dog or a wolf will give up when the situation changes "beyond the initial parameters".
A dog trained to track/drive prey without LOS to the hunter doesn't give up easily. Elk season here sees hunters giving up in the evening when it gets dark. Dogs don't care about light quite as much as people with rifles do so the dog keepers will then spend quite a lot of time on recovering their dogs. I caught one last autumn (well, he gave up and sought out people for a warm place to rest actually) and called the number on his collar - that was 0300 in the morning and something like 20 kilometers from where they had been hunting. Dogs don't care that their owners are on foot and can't catch the elk they're barking at. They started barking and goddamn they'll keep barking until someone shoots the stupid elk, it gets run over by a truck or swims over such a large body of water that the dog doesn't want to follow.
Space Wolves do the same, but wouldn't be as cool if they were called Space Dogs.
Mit Gas wrote:Whereas the amazing Thousand Sons are unique and interesting. Their story is a tragic one and they didn't join Chaos just to become evil, they were forced to. That puts them into the tragic category, something that few villains in 40k can claim. My (40k) heart belongs to them and I feel justified, God-approven HATE hate HATE for Wolves.
So yes, if you can play any chapter but them. Wolf Wolfgar Mc Wolfson, drinking out of his gigantic Wolf-horn, while sitting on his gigantic wolf, Wolfy, with his Wolfcoat, Wolfshield and Wolfhammer is not who you want to associate with. there are cooler legions.
Uhm......fanboy much?
Seriously, another topic about bashin the SWs? No offense but haven't we been through this already?
I never really understood WHY space wolves weren't chaos. I'm not saying that they shouldn't get their own dex (thats a different debate) but rather why their different dex wasn't chaos instead of imperial.
They were inspired by VIKINGS in space. Vikings weren't exactly a group of people known for not raiding, pillaging, raping, and general ruthlessness.
The entire Space Wolf codex would be much more compelling if they actually acted like space vikings, a band of renegades operating in the "north" of the galaxy, launching devastating raids against imperial worlds.
That is what Vikings do. They weren't "Defenders of the Peace" they were the entire reason peasants cowered to the nobles for protection, great warriors praying on the weak is what vikings were.
Honestly, Huron Blackheart and the Red Corsairs are more akin to Space Vikings then the Space Wolves ever were or will be. I'm glad he took the Wolf of Fenris from those hypocrites.
You see, you have given voice to the not all true stereotype about vikings. Yes the Space Wolves are based on Viking culture, anyone with two eyes could see that BUT Viking culture isn't exactly what you say. Yes they were raiders, pillagers, and at most times ruthless but the most gruesome acts Vikings preformed were usually the raids. Put it simple, they ran in scared the crap out of everyone, killed anyone who tried to stop them and took everything of value. The horror stories about them being demonized bloodthirsty pagans intent on slaughter is nothing more than crock cooked up by those who were scared of them or ploy stories used by the vikings to scare people into giving up without a fight.
The Scandinavian area in that time was barren so the people became raiders and hard fighters, much like the Space Wolves themselves.
So my question is: Why is it so wrong for the 40k version of the vikings to be Imperial? The Space wolves use similar tactics to the vikings, have the same sort of world/culture/way of life. The SWs are BASED on vikings, not entirely like them.
Methinks a certain Chaos player has a little Wulfen envy
Space Wolves aren't based on the history major's understanding of vikings but their image in popular culture. When you say viking to the average person they think horns on helmets, pillaging , and raping.
I think SW might be my least favorite army in all of 40k. Thousand Sons on the other hand are pretty awesome.
Mit Gas wrote:I love dogs, I think wolves are cool and vikings are as well, my last name is even Thor, but the Space Wolves are a bunch of wasted ingrates, completely slowed and right behind the Ultramarines in their pimp-position. They are the chapter I dislike most, mainly due to being slowed, aggressive morons. Yeah, they drink. Awesome. They are made to appeal kiddies and all the guys I know who are Wolves-players have more than 1 negative trait in common and I see not the brightest bulbs siding with them either.
Whereas the amazing Thousand Sons are unique and interesting. Their story is a tragic one and they didn't join Chaos just to become evil, they were forced to. That puts them into the tragic category, something that few villains in 40k can claim. My (40k) heart belongs to them and I feel justified, God-approven HATE hate HATE for Wolves.
So yes, if you can play any chapter but them. Wolf Wolfgar Mc Wolfson, drinking out of his gigantic Wolf-horn, while sitting on his gigantic wolf, Wolfy, with his Wolfcoat, Wolfshield and Wolfhammer is not who you want to associate with. there are cooler legions.
Really?
I chose SW's because I like Nordic myth and not because I am a juvenile.
I chose to get SW's when new to the hobby and before knowing they were a newly refurbished army with shiney stuff and the bandwagon to despise.
I would be very grateful for you to point out this negative flaw that I have in common with all other SW collectors.
Being slowed I have absolutely no clue what it might be.
But if you hate fictional soldiers so much you have have a few issues to deal with before lambasting others.
Sadly, the irony is lost in translation. I'm making fun of SW players who happen to post with such fervor all the time (some even in this thread), albeit using simpler sentence structure and no punctuation to tell us about how awesome their wolves are. And cause it's fun to rub SW players as they're intense personalities (at least the ones I know) that mostly just reek of nerdiness. While I think the SW are lame in some ways (like being über-stylized and pimped but that is the fault of unfit fluff-writers), I'm not really hating them. I guess someone with half a brain would realize that when someones rants and puts in stupid stuff like "justifed, god-approvenhate HATE hate" that they're not entirely serious but I take it that this excludes you. I just hate them when I think as a 1k Son and it's fun to write hogwash. You should just flame back as a SW, would've been much more fun than you crying a river and being all hurt. A true, magnificent Space Wolf would just punch back but I see that you're part of the whiny company. Uwehehehe.
Mit Gas wrote:I love dogs, I think wolves are cool and vikings are as well, my last name is even Thor, but the Space Wolves are a bunch of wasted ingrates, completely slowed and right behind the Ultramarines in their pimp-position. They are the chapter I dislike most, mainly due to being slowed, aggressive morons. Yeah, they drink. Awesome. They are made to appeal kiddies and all the guys I know who are Wolves-players have more than 1 negative trait in common and I see not the brightest bulbs siding with them either.
Whereas the amazing Thousand Sons are unique and interesting. Their story is a tragic one and they didn't join Chaos just to become evil, they were forced to. That puts them into the tragic category, something that few villains in 40k can claim. My (40k) heart belongs to them and I feel justified, God-approven HATE hate HATE for Wolves.
So yes, if you can play any chapter but them. Wolf Wolfgar Mc Wolfson, drinking out of his gigantic Wolf-horn, while sitting on his gigantic wolf, Wolfy, with his Wolfcoat, Wolfshield and Wolfhammer is not who you want to associate with. there are cooler legions.
Really?
I chose SW's because I like Nordic myth and not because I am a juvenile.
I chose to get SW's when new to the hobby and before knowing they were a newly refurbished army with shiney stuff and the bandwagon to despise.
I would be very grateful for you to point out this negative flaw that I have in common with all other SW collectors.
Being slowed I have absolutely no clue what it might be.
But if you hate fictional soldiers so much you have have a few issues to deal with before lambasting others.
Sadly, the irony is lost in translation. I'm making fun of SW players who happen to post with such fervor all the time (some even in this thread), albeit using simpler sentence structure and no punctuation to tell us about how awesome their wolves are. And cause it's fun to rub SW players as they're intense personalities (at least the ones I know) that mostly just reek of nerdiness. While I think the SW are lame in some ways (like being über-stylized and pimped but that is the fault of unfit fluff-writers), I'm not really hating them. I guess someone with half a brain would realize that when someones rants and puts in stupid stuff like "justifed, god-approvenhate HATE hate" that they're not entirely serious but I take it that this excludes you. I just hate them when I think as a 1k Son and it's fun to write hogwash. You should just flame back as a SW, would've been much more fun than you crying a river and being all hurt. A true, magnificent Space Wolf would just punch back but I see that you're part of the whiny company. Uwehehehe.
Here's me biting back.
Reported for purposely trying to start a flame war.
Mit Gas wrote:I love dogs, I think wolves are cool and vikings are as well, my last name is even Thor, but the Space Wolves are a bunch of wasted ingrates, completely slowed and right behind the Ultramarines in their pimp-position. They are the chapter I dislike most, mainly due to being slowed, aggressive morons. Yeah, they drink. Awesome. They are made to appeal kiddies and all the guys I know who are Wolves-players have more than 1 negative trait in common and I see not the brightest bulbs siding with them either.
Whereas the amazing Thousand Sons are unique and interesting. Their story is a tragic one and they didn't join Chaos just to become evil, they were forced to. That puts them into the tragic category, something that few villains in 40k can claim. My (40k) heart belongs to them and I feel justified, God-approven HATE hate HATE for Wolves.
So yes, if you can play any chapter but them. Wolf Wolfgar Mc Wolfson, drinking out of his gigantic Wolf-horn, while sitting on his gigantic wolf, Wolfy, with his Wolfcoat, Wolfshield and Wolfhammer is not who you want to associate with. there are cooler legions.
Really?
I chose SW's because I like Nordic myth and not because I am a juvenile.
I chose to get SW's when new to the hobby and before knowing they were a newly refurbished army with shiney stuff and the bandwagon to despise.
I would be very grateful for you to point out this negative flaw that I have in common with all other SW collectors.
Being slowed I have absolutely no clue what it might be.
But if you hate fictional soldiers so much you have have a few issues to deal with before lambasting others.
Sadly, the irony is lost in translation. I'm making fun of SW players who happen to post with such fervor all the time (some even in this thread), albeit using simpler sentence structure and no punctuation to tell us about how awesome their wolves are. And cause it's fun to rub SW players as they're intense personalities (at least the ones I know) that mostly just reek of nerdiness. While I think the SW are lame in some ways (like being über-stylized and pimped but that is the fault of unfit fluff-writers), I'm not really hating them. I guess someone with half a brain would realize that when someones rants and puts in stupid stuff like "justifed, god-approvenhate HATE hate" that they're not entirely serious but I take it that this excludes you. I just hate them when I think as a 1k Son and it's fun to write hogwash. You should just flame back as a SW, would've been much more fun than you crying a river and being all hurt. A true, magnificent Space Wolf would just punch back but I see that you're part of the whiny company. Uwehehehe.
This is ridiculously OTT and rude to other posters. If you continue to post in such a rude and unpleasent style then your account on this site will be suspended. Cracks about other users having "half a brain" and the like are neither wanted or welcome here.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Pilau - no, they really are the Executioners. That is their role - to "do the unthinkable"
And what is the MOST unthinkable thing to a standard SM? Hint: it's repeated a million times throughout the Heresy.
Yeah, marine vs marine, I know I know, but until there is a definite concrete 'Leman killed Primarch 2' then i'm reserving the right to disagree.
I would say the most unthinkable thing for a standard Space Marine would be to betray the Emperor
Not met Russ yet in Prospero Burns, just up to the part where Hawser is collecting the tales of Longfang.
Actually Nos - I have been thinking on this and maybe would kind of agree, it would be one of the reasons that the Space Wolves seem such a dour lot and keep themselves to themselves. You don't really want to be making friends and then one day maybe having to go kill them.
I've read further and am torn between my original standing on the matter - that they aren't necessarily the slayers of Legions but some of Russ speech does nearly convince me otherwise. But he's a Primarch and it possibly could be bravado. Who's going to tell him he's lying?
the rout wrote:Rune Priest arent librarians and therefore not banned by the edicts of nikea. They do use the warp tis true but not to the extent librarians do, they dont even need nor use psychic hoods.
Not to mention their power come from psychically imbued runes so their not really librarians.
They might not be Librarians as such but they are one and the same, sorcerers with a different name.
the rout wrote:And why are fenrisian gods false gods btw? belief makes it real in the warp therfore the fenrisians have created their own mini gods which must go part way to explaining no wolves falling to chaos as far as i can tell. The 13th live in the warp and the RP are unprotected and still no chaos wolves.
What other Fenrisian Gods are there? I thought they only worshiped the Emperor as the Allfather?
biccat wrote:
Given that the Emperor bargained with the Chaos Gods to create the Primarchs
Daemon lies and half truths - Daemons cannot be trusted! For Shame biccat
akaean wrote:
the rout wrote:LOL i said none of them have turned chaos not not none of them have turned renegade. Several wolves have turned their back on the imperium but their just rebels not chaos marines, and before you say it yes their is a huuuuuuge difference between the two.
I hate to break it to you, but when you roll with Huron Blackheart... you're a Chaos Space marine. Not that there is anything wrong with that, Blackheart is one of the most badass charachters in 40k, but to say he isn't chaos is just foolish.
BrotherStynier wrote:
the rout wrote: no other SW has ever fallen to chaos
Skyrar's Dark Wolves beg to differ.
As soon as you turn your back on the Emperor you are a traitor and renegade and joining the Blackheart you are a Chaos follower by default. Honsou of the Iron Warriors had a Space Wolf in his warband.
Chaos follower mean follwing chaos gofs not chaos dudes.
And their are lts of gods on fenris, morkai for one and the god of iron for another.
Anyhoo that aside where does all the SW hate come from? is it the fluff or the characters? is it the codex or the models? If people dont like them thats fine but the amount of hate i see in this community just makes me wanna leave, not because i wouldnt happily bitch slap most SW haters in a match or a manly arm wrestle but because i think this amount of hate is irrational and yes im going to say it STUPID.
I mean i hate the smurfs but i dont reant half as much as SW haters.
Not to get all flamey but i think its just jealousy of cool models, cooler rules and even cooler characters that the other blander legions cant equal but hey if there a logical explanation besides "they call everything wolf and drink loads and they kill people we think are cool" then id love to hear it. Otherwise id politely suggest you grow up
Having read some more of A Thousand Sons, and reading all the posts being made here about the Space Wolves, I got REALLY excited.
Excited that I didn't WASTE my money starting a Space Wolves army.
What a bunch of hypocritical, devious, bastard idiots they are (yes I said idiots). They're like a bunch of whining little babies, crying to the Emperor about every little thing they don't like. All the while they are doing almost exactly the same stuff. In fact, it doesn't appear that the Emperor even wanted the council of Nikaea, but that Russ and Mortarion cried their eyes out, and that the Emperor's hand was forced if he wanted to keep the cry-babies happy. If he hadn't, Russ and Mortarion both would have turned on him. Becoming traitors. I haven't heard of a bigger bunch of losers. It's like when I was bullied in school, the second I fought back, the bullies ran crying to the teachers getting me expelled. And if all that wasn't enough, they behave JUST like the mean girl in some high school drama movie, pretending to be the unpopular girl's friend, just to get some dirt on her, only to use that dirt to publicly humiliate her. Bunch of drama queens, the lot of them.
Someone said the SW powers doesn't come from the warp, which is silly, because it's CLEAR that ALL supernatural powers in 40K come from the warp. Psykers, sorcerers, priests, navigators, chaplains, librarians, runes, primarchs and even the emperor's own powers ALL comes from the warp. Not only that but the Emperor is the epitome of secular (non-religious) thought, and then the wolves are using PRIESTS???? What the hell? The SW should have been evicted from the Imperium of Man for that alone. The SW are like the US, saying "Ooooh, noooo. YOU can't have nukes. YOU can't handle that power. YOU must get rid of your nukes OR ELSE! What? These old things? Well. They're OURS. We MUST be allowed to have them. Why? Oh. Uhm. Weeeell. To PROTECT you guys. Yes, that's it. To protect YOU. YOU can't take OUR toys, or we'll start throwing them around." What a bunch of morons. I'm glad I didn't waste my money on Space Wolves, because I really can't stand that kind of hypocrisy, fiction or not. I've thrown books in the trash for less.
Oh, and just so it's clear. I DO NOT COLLECT THOUSAND SONS. I collect Imperial Guard and Orks, and have very recently made my own Chaos Legion.
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the rout wrote:Chaos follower mean follwing chaos gofs not chaos dudes.
Without the (warp derived) protection of the Emperor, no one could stand against the creeping corruption of chaos for long. The long life-span of an Astartes warrior means it's guaranteed to happen sooner or later.
Lol the 13th company live in the warp dude so yeh they kinda could survive and half for the last 10k years.
Sorcery isnt the same as psykers, SWRPs use their own power as do all librarian and sanctioned psykers but sorcerers use sources hence the name to perform rituals, read the rest of thousand sons youll know what i mean, it isnt the same hence why wizards and magicians and sorcerers are all different things.
And did you just call the SW cry babies? are you kidding me? they reported the TS to the emperor its true but that is their duty and yes they double crossed the unlawful TS but so what? the guy deserved it, their the friggin whiney ones, the SW just did what they thought the emperor would want but did the TS:? noooo They are as much in the wrong as even horus dont let the book confuse you and when you read prospero burns Russ is actually trying to save Magnus but hey youve made up your mind right? thrown the book away in anger? you sound like what your trying to say the wolves are genius.
SgtSixkilla wrote:Having read some more of A Thousand Sons, and reading all the posts being made here about the Space Wolves, I got REALLY excited.
Excited that I didn't WASTE my money starting a Space Wolves army.
What a bunch of hypocritical, devious, bastard idiots they are (yes I said idiots). They're like a bunch of whining little babies, crying to the Emperor about every little thing they don't like. All the while they are doing almost exactly the same stuff. In fact, it doesn't appear that the Emperor even wanted the council of Nikaea, but that Russ and Mortarion cried their eyes out, and that the Emperor's hand was forced if he wanted to keep the cry-babies happy. If he hadn't, Russ and Mortarion both would have turned on him. Becoming traitors. I haven't heard of a bigger bunch of losers. It's like when I was bullied in school, the second I fought back, the bullies ran crying to the teachers getting me expelled. And if all that wasn't enough, they behave JUST like the mean girl in some high school drama movie, pretending to be the unpopular girl's friend, just to get some dirt on her, only to use that dirt to publicly humiliate her. Bunch of drama queens, the lot of them.
Someone said the SW powers doesn't come from the warp, which is silly, because it's CLEAR that ALL supernatural powers in 40K come from the warp. Psykers, sorcerers, priests, navigators, chaplains, librarians, runes, primarchs and even the emperor's own powers ALL comes from the warp. Not only that but the Emperor is the epitome of secular (non-religious) thought, and then the wolves are using PRIESTS???? What the hell? The SW should have been evicted from the Imperium of Man for that alone. The SW are like the US, saying "Ooooh, noooo. YOU can't have nukes. YOU can't handle that power. YOU must get rid of your nukes OR ELSE! What? These old things? Well. They're OURS. We MUST be allowed to have them. Why? Oh. Uhm. Weeeell. To PROTECT you guys. Yes, that's it. To protect YOU. YOU can't take OUR toys, or we'll start throwing them around." What a bunch of morons. I'm glad I didn't waste my money on Space Wolves, because I really can't stand that kind of hypocrisy, fiction or not. I've thrown books in the trash for less.
Oh, and just so it's clear. I DO NOT COLLECT THOUSAND SONS. I collect Imperial Guard and Orks, and have very recently made my own Chaos Legion.
While the Emperor didn't truly want the Council to occur, he was very emphatic in his censureship of Magnus, citing that he was playing with powers beyond his control. The Council itself was to appease those who were against the use of Librarians in the Astartes (Russ, Mortarion, the Sisters of Silence etc.), but the final decision was his and his alone. If he had gone the other way, the others would not have been happy, but they'd have accepted it. Mortarion seemed to be rather vindictive, but how hate-filled Russ truly was is debateable. From another point of view, on an issue as divided as the Librarius issue, were the Wolves truly wrong in questioning something that the Emperor had made no true decision on, or being on the other side of the table, if they thought it was wrong?
Priest is a title, not an indication of religion, but I don't truly understand it either. The Wolves believe that their power is different, although how they can do that when they can clearly send themselves into the aethyr, I do not know. I do dislike Wyrdmake as well, despite being a fan of the Space Wolves. The subterfuge is beneath the Sons of Russ.
I would recommend you continue reading. I found myself very much on the side of the Thousand Sons until towards the end of the book, then it began to fade as I realised exactly what was going on. You may be the same.
Without the (warp derived) protection of the Emperor, no one could stand against the creeping corruption of chaos for long. The long life-span of an Astartes warrior means it's guaranteed to happen sooner or later.
Actually, it's less the protection of the Emperor, and more the fact that the only place a renegade Astartes is likely to be able to escape the Imperium is the Maelstrom or the great Eye, both of which involve heavy exposure to the forces of the Chaos Gods.
--
Oh, and the US reference is likely to just inspire flaming, so it's probably a bad idea.
I'm not sure that it really is a "change" to Nikaea in the books.
Thnk about it - the HH books are the first "as it happened" accounts, with no historical changes over 10k years. All other accounts of Nikaea are post Heresy - when the IoM would need to justify the continued use of Libbies, but without seeming to contradict the Emperors divine word.
So they changed it: no Sorcery, but psychics are allowed.
the rout wrote:Lol the 13th company live in the warp dude so yeh they kinda could survive and half for the last 10k years.
But as long as their Geller field, psychic choir, and their dedication to the emperor remains, they're still protected. And it's mentioned, in more places than I can remember, that time in the warp doesn't flow in the same way as time in real space.
the rout wrote:Sorcery isnt the same as psykers, SWRPs use their own power as do all librarian and sanctioned psykers but sorcerers use sources hence the name to perform rituals, read the rest of thousand sons youll know what i mean, it isnt the same hence why wizards and magicians and sorcerers are all different things.
Bold emphasis: No. Their power comes from the warp. They are just able to channel that power through themselves.
Underline emphasis: WHAT? A sorcerer is just a name for someone who uses their powers to cast spells instead of navigating ships or whatever. Sorcerer, psyker, navigator, librarian, chaplain, witch are all just names for the same thing. The singular difference is how they manifest their power.
the rout wrote:
And did you just call the SW cry babies? are you kidding me? they reported the TS to the emperor its true but that is their duty and yes they double crossed the unlawful TS but so what? the guy deserved it, their the friggin whiney ones, the SW just did what they thought the emperor would want but did the TS:? noooo They are as much in the wrong as even horus dont let the book confuse you and when you read prospero burns Russ is actually trying to save Magnus but hey youve made up your mind right? thrown the book away in anger? you sound like what your trying to say the wolves are genius.
The actions of the wolves speak for themselves. Whining little babies who threaten violence if they don't get their way. I'm not defending Magnus the Red. He's a douche just like Russ, but because of arrogance instead of deception and brutality. I've never said Magnus was right, I've said Russ was wrong.
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VenerableBrotherPelinore wrote:
Priest is a title, not an indication of religion,
Priest is a religious title. Also, there's instances where entire planet populations have been exterminated because they used non-secular titles and words for things that weren't really.
VenerableBrotherPelinore wrote:
I would recommend you continue reading. I found myself very much on the side of the Thousand Sons until towards the end of the book, then it began to fade as I realised exactly what was going on. You may be the same.
Again. I'm not siding with the Thousand Sons. I'm siding against the Space Wolves. Because of actions they've already perpetrated.
VenerableBrotherPelinore wrote:
Oh, and the US reference is likely to just inspire flaming, so it's probably a bad idea.
But it's true. If someone can't handle it, it's their problem.
the rout wrote:Chaos follower mean follwing chaos gofs not chaos dudes.
It's one and the same thing really.
the rout wrote:And their are lts of gods on fenris, morkai for one and the god of iron for another.
Ok cool, I never knew that.
the rout wrote:Anyhoo that aside where does all the SW hate come from? is it the fluff or the characters? is it the codex or the models? If people dont like them thats fine but the amount of hate i see in this community just makes me wanna leave, not because i wouldnt happily bitch slap most SW haters in a match or a manly arm wrestle but because i think this amount of hate is irrational and yes im going to say it STUPID.
No hate from here, I like the Space Wolves from Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns and even the lone wolf from Furious Abyss. But if there's a discussion to be had about events and something that I can comment on then I will.
the rout wrote:Not to get all flamey but i think its just jealousy of cool models, cooler rules and even cooler characters that the other blander legions cant equal but hey if there a logical explanation besides "they call everything wolf and drink loads and they kill people we think are cool" then id love to hear it. Otherwise id politely suggest you grow up
This is quite simply, is your opinion on the Space Wolves, we're expressing ours.
the rout wrote:
Sorcery isnt the same as psykers, SWRPs use their own power as do all librarian and sanctioned psykers but sorcerers use sources hence the name to perform rituals, read the rest of thousand sons youll know what i mean, it isnt the same hence why wizards and magicians and sorcerers are all different things.
It is the same, just a different way in which the are used, all psychic powers come from the same place. The different between the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves is minimal. The Thousand Sons had the Tutelaries the Space Wolves have their runes and their Gods.
LOL you think sorcerors are the same as psykers? lol your bright and the 13 th company have no geller field or ships and they went into the warp before the SW began to praise the emperor as a god so go figure? They survive how? oh yeah by force of wolfy will thats how.
Sorcerors perform ritual and use sacrifice, psykers and RPs dont, thats the difference. Other wise why would the BL make the distinction?
Priest can also be litterally translated as man of truth so yeah not religious and the reporting of the TS isnt douchey, leaving them to run amok would be douchey reporting them was what russ thought was best for them and the imperium.
And Chaplains arent psykers man, WOW for someone with such an attitude you sure are uninformed. Read a bit more fluff and get back to me.
I honestly believe that Space Wolves are traitors to the Imperium, and solely responsible for the civil war, the loss of legions, and the Emperor's Death.
I wrote this elsewhere, copying it here because it fits.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Greetings my easily misguided future slaves, whose torture and soul-searing agony will keep my kabal entertained endlessly, and our skin pale, creamy, and vibrant with the raw terror you shake with upon contemplation of the Maleficarum standing before you.
I’ve long had nothing but contempt for all Astartes, and the rise of Space Wolves as a dominant force among Space Marine players has been the result of many snorts of laughter amongst our inner circle. Unimaginative as your pseudo-species of Frankenstein assemblies are, Space Mongrels hold a special place of humour in my black heart. What other legion could be so easily misguided to betray the Imperium and destroy the Emperor’s most loyal servants at but a word of a treacherous son? What other legion could be counted on to not have the intelligence to question the value of their actions? Stupid and unintelligent at best, traitorous to mankind at worst, these hypocritical, superstitious, and inept servants of Chaos designed to kill their brethren are my favorite target for both verbal sparring and for killing.
And why should that ingrained lack of imagination and innovation inherently bred into each and every Space Wolf reflect differently in any other facet of their mangy existence? Every army list is as unoriginal as the last – uninspiring and unimaginative, as if each skold gothi has a virtual replica of forces to wield.
Who doesn’t expect several units of mongrels toting missile launchers to cower in the backfield and snipe at transports? Who doesn’t expect one or several hyped up gothi elevated to priest status exercising the same wyrd that they condemn their brethren for? Minimal variance to account for the inclusion of lonewolves, Thunderwolf Cavalry, or vehicle spam as the personal philosophy of each dictates…but at the end of the day, it is the difference of icing on the cake, without substantive change.
And that, my subhuman mongrel pets, is the foundation of my lack of respect for the ineptitude of your murder-make. Your skjalds recite the memories of your mongrels against inferior foes. Against enemies without the advantages bred into the petri dishes of your polluted genes. Against an intelligent foe, you crumble. When your wyrd is matched against the tenacity of any of the superior lifeforms you arrogantly dismiss as Xenos, entire complements of your warriors sleep on red snow.
It is not arrogance for my race to claim superiority over yours, to dismiss your combat abilities, and cackle in glee that you remain imagined as faithful to the Emperor, when you have been the catalyst for ten thousand years of strife. It is simple fact. Space Wolves are inferior in every way. Every time these superstitious hypocrites take the field against me, my army half-sleeps its way through victory against them.
So there it is. I expect your feeble forces to quail before mine. Bowed in terror and humbled before your worst fears manifested in physical form: Dark Eldar. Are there any out there who would be willing to champion the cowed mongrel dogs and attempt to demonstrate that the puppies are *not* all cookie-cutter replicas of inferiority, and that they *do* have some fighting ability?
The whiskey challenge is Thursday night, the night before the Nova Invitational. Are there any out there whose tails won’t tuck between their legs as they flee the Maleficarum? I challenge all puppies, everywhere – prove to me that you aren’t the whimpering cowards that I know you are. Prove to me that Dark Eldar don’t drink Mjold better than the Wolves of Fenris. Instead of a whiskey challenge, we can call it the mjold challenge. Prove to me that every battle with Wolves isn’t a lesson in humiliation waiting for them.
As is stated in many of the novels I've read, you don't have to worship the emperor to receive his protection. You just have to be loyal to his cause, which is the protection of mankind.
Even the first warp-travel capable ships had Geller fields. Without it the gods of chaos would just saunter in and eat everyone. Or are the Wolves stronger than beings which not even the emperor can defeat?
Sorcery and Sources are two different words with different meanings. One does not derive from the other. And within the context of warhammer, all supernatural powers comes from the warp. There are no other sources of that kind of power. There are four major chaos gods who all manifest their powers differently, why shouldn't there be other ways to manifest them?
www.dictionary.com wrote:
priest   
–noun
1.
a person whose office it is to perform religious rites, and especially to make sacrificial offerings.
2.
(in Christian use) a.
a person ordained to the sacerdotal or pastoral office; a member of the clergy; minister.
b.
(in hierarchical churches) a member of the clergy of the order next below that of bishop, authorized to carry out the Christian ministry.
a.
a person ordained to the sacerdotal or pastoral office; a member of the clergy; minister.
b.
(in hierarchical churches) a member of the clergy of the order next below that of bishop, authorized to carry out the Christian ministry.
3.
a minister of any religion.
It was douchy to behave the way Russ and his lap-dogs behaved. That was the point of my original post.
They are all psykers. That's what I'm saying. When you get to the bottom of it, there's no difference. Psykers have warp-sight, which is what gives them their power.
EDIT:
Oh, and as for me being jealous of the Space Wolf codex or appearance is just a stupid argument. I've never opened the SW codex, and if I wanted I'd use the space wolves models in my new chaos army. Even the Runes fit with the chaos ideology, since they are fully heretical under the imperial creed.
Also, something I've forgot to say is that the Wolves worship gods which are native to Fenris, and are thus clearly not loyal to the Imperium of Man.
Psychics use the power of the warp, channeled through themselves, to perform their actions
Sorcerors user the power of daemons and similar (the "tutelaries" the TS use) to power their actions
There is a big difference between the two
The rout - could you stop being insulting about others? Red Corsairs worship Chaos Undivided. End of. Yes, that means your "precious" wolves HAVE in the past fallen
SgtSixkilla wrote:
It was douchy to behave the way Russ and his lap-dogs behaved. That was the point of my original post.
Maybe read Prospero Burns. Russ and boys had good reasons for Prospero.
They are all psykers. That's what I'm saying. When you get to the bottom of it, there's no difference. Psykers have warp-sight, which is what gives them their power.
Again, PB further elaborates on the difference between psykers and sorcerers. Psykers use innate powers to channel the warp. Sorcerers make deals with beings in the warp. Big difference and the Big E sees a big difference there as well.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Psychics use the power of the warp, channeled through themselves, to perform their actions
Sorcerors user the power of daemons and similar (the "tutelaries" the TS use) to power their actions
There is a big difference between the two
pretre wrote:
sgtsixkilla wrote:
They are all psykers. That's what I'm saying. When you get to the bottom of it, there's no difference. Psykers have warp-sight, which is what gives them their power.
Again, PB further elaborates on the difference between psykers and sorcerers. Psykers use innate powers to channel the warp. Sorcerers make deals with beings in the warp. Big difference and the Big E sees a big difference there as well.
There's no difference. The daemons you guys talk about are warp creatures. And also, it's so clearly stated in A Thousand Sons that the Thousand Sons HAVE innate genetic pre-dispositon for channeling the warp. You can't tell me that's not the exact same thing. The very reason the Thousand Sons have warp powers is because of their gene-seed, it's stated so many times it borders on annoying.
pretre wrote:
SgtSixkilla wrote:
It was douchy to behave the way Russ and his lap-dogs behaved. That was the point of my original post.
Maybe read Prospero Burns. Russ and boys had good reasons for Prospero.
Again, it's not because they're mean to the the Thousand Sons that I think they're a-holes. I'd have felt the exact same way no matter which faction they'd have done it to, because it's their actions that are douchy. They are hypocritical because their Priests are psykers, and they're dickish because the Thousand Sons were they're brothers, and they're stupid because they haven't read tsun tzu's art of war, or whatever is the Warhammer equivalent. Tsun Tzu syas "Plans seldom survive the first encounter with the enemy." Something the Wolves are obviously oblivious to, since they stick to their plans NO MATTER WHAT happens. Which is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Psychics use the power of the warp, channeled through themselves, to perform their actions
Sorcerors user the power of daemons and similar (the "tutelaries" the TS use) to power their actions
There is a big difference between the two
pretre wrote:
Again, PB further elaborates on the difference between psykers and sorcerers. Psykers use innate powers to channel the warp. Sorcerers make deals with beings in the warp. Big difference and the Big E sees a big difference there as well.
The difference is that Sorcerers make bargains to further their power, the power still comes from the same place. Sorcerers start off as Librarians but it's the taste of the fathomless power of the warp that tips them over.
Not all the Thousand Sons had Tutelaries yet they still could use their powers. The Tutelaries were a way to expand on what they already had. But the Tutelaries only stuck around as the Thousand Sons were either an eventual snack or way into real world.
Dashofpepper wrote:I honestly believe that Space Wolves are traitors to the Imperium, and solely responsible for the civil war, the loss of legions, and the Emperor's Death.
Umm Citation Needed? Soley responsible for the Heresy, the legions turning to chaos and the Emperor's Death. Laying it on a little thick here.
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SgtSixkilla wrote:
There's no difference. The daemons you guys talk about are warp creatures. And also, it's so clearly stated in A Thousand Sons that the Thousand Sons HAVE innate genetic pre-dispositon for channeling the warp. You can't tell me that's not the exact same thing. The very reason the Thousand Sons have warp powers is because of their gene-seed, it's stated so many times it borders on annoying.
Things that live in the warp ARE daemons. That's kind of the point. Psykers aren't sorcerers. Sorcerers are folks who make pacts with Chaos and Daemons. You do know that Magnus made a pact with Tzeentch to save his sons BEFORE the Heresy, right?
pretre wrote:Again, it's not because they're mean to the the Thousand Sons that I think they're a-holes. I'd have felt the exact same way no matter which faction they'd have done it to, because it's their actions that are douchy. They are hypocritical because their Priests are psykers, and they're dickish because the Thousand Sons were they're brothers, and they're stupid because they haven't read tsun tzu's art of war, or whatever is the Warhammer equivalent. Tsun Tzu syas "Plans seldom survive the first encounter with the enemy." Something the Wolves are obviously oblivious to, since they stick to their plans NO MATTER WHAT happens. Which is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Again, go to the passages on Nikaea. None of the librarians there said that they weren't psykers. They said they weren't sorcerors. Seriously. The Big E called Nikea because Magnus and his boys refused to use safe psykeryTo prevent that from spreading, the Big E banned librarians across the board. Basically, Magnus spoiled it for everyone else. Then after being expressly told to not do it, he not only did it, but busted up the Big E's plan because of something he was told by warp entities (again sorcery). Even if it was right, he played right into their hands by warning E and ruining his project. It is pretty clear in the books that the Warp Gods wanted this and M played right into their hands because he didn't listen to E. The best intentions; The worst results.
As for the Art of War, give of an example of when the wolves have failed to adapt to changing battlefield conditions like you say. There's a difference between following through on orders and having battlefield inflexibility.
A lot of people are toting around the difference between sorcery and regular psykers to try and justify the SWs viewpoint. The simple fact of the matter is that at the council of Nikea, it was plainly obvious that they were not drawing that difference. They were calling ALL psykers evil. They were blaming ALL psykers for basically everything wrong in the universe(reminded me of an old fashioned witch trial actually). After the council, all psykers except those absolutely required(such as the navigators), were banned. Librarians and "sorcerers" alike. Despite this, the SWs continued to use their Rune Priests, because they were "different" and claimed they didn't draw their powers from the warp(which they did).
pretre wrote:
Again, go to the passages on Nikaea. None of the librarians there said that they weren't psykers. They said they weren't sorcerors. Seriously. The Big E called Nikea because Magnus and his boys refused to use safe psykeryTo prevent that from spreading, the Big E banned librarians across the board. Basically, Magnus spoiled it for everyone else.
I kind of agree with you here
True - Magnus did ruin it for everyone, but it wasn't solely his fault. Psychic powers were used flippantly, without the consequences fully thought out. The Librarius was only a fledgling thing and was still learning - if the truth was realised sooner then it might have been allowed to continue. But Magnus blatant arrogance and the other psykers saying that it is only a weapon is what made the Emperors decree. He alone knows the full dangers of the warp, it's not a place to take a dip in unless your wearing the proper protection.
Sorcerors or psykers, it's down to interpretation. Rune Priests are neither conveniently
SgtSixkilla wrote:Again, it's not because they're mean to the the Thousand Sons that I think they're a-holes.
Sorry, but I don't believe you there.
Take it easy , but IMHO, your statements are clearly influenced by your reading of Thousand Sons. Simply because you made references to this book a couple of times, that your dislike for the SW seem to grow with time (I guess it's because you're going further in your reading of Thousand Sons) and that most of your arguments against the SW are quite similar to those employed by the TS in McNeill's book.
As other users of this forum, I suggest that you restrain your righteous fury against the SW and put aside your opinions on this legion until you get a chance of reading Propero Burns. Because just as other users of this forum, I was pretty much in the same state of mind about the wolves until I read the second book and was able to make a more objective opinion on this situation.
A Thousand Sons, Mortarion wrote:That is the difference. Where an astrotelepath or Navigator uses his powers for the good of others, allowing distant worlds to communicate or guiding the Expeditionary Fleets of the Imperium across the stars, the sorcerer uses his power for personal gain, for earthly power and dominance.
A Thousand Sons,The Emperor wrote:A man who attains a measure of power will find it comes to dominate his life until all he can think of is the acquisition of more. Nearly all men can stand adversity, but few can stand the ultimate test of character, that of wielding power without
succumbing to its darker temptations. Peering into the darkness to gain knowledge of the warp is fraught with peril, for it is an inconstant place of shifting reality, capricious lies and untruths. The seeker after truth must have a care he is not deceived, for false knowledge is far more angerous than ignorance. All men wish to possess knowledge, but few are willing to pay the price. Always men will seek to take the short cut, the quick route to power, and it is a man’s own mind, not his enemy or foe, that will lure him to evil ways.
I'm not sure that it really is a "change" to Nikaea in the books.
Thnk about it - the HH books are the first "as it happened" accounts, with no historical changes over 10k years. All other accounts of Nikaea are post Heresy - when the IoM would need to justify the continued use of Libbies, but without seeming to contradict the Emperors divine word.
So they changed it: no Sorcery, but psychics are allowed.
It's an interesting idea....
I remember reading that a contingent of psykers made the case that psychic powers were like any other natural talent and shouldn't be excluded but instead embraced and trained. They also said that sorcery could be used by an unskilled individual to gain power and therefore was more corrupting.
See my quotes above. The 'new' Nikaea is NO psychic powers because of what Magnus did.
Basically, because some delved too deep, no one gets to use them anymore.
Notice the Emperor and Mortarion's words. He is talking about folks who couldn't just use their powers for good, but kept going. That's the difference between Sorcery and Psykery. Psykery is a tool to help the Imperium. Sorcery is a tool to help yourself and gain personal knowledge/power.
SgtSixkilla wrote:
Also, something I've forgot to say is that the Wolves worship gods which are native to Fenris, and are thus clearly not loyal to the Imperium of Man.
If by native gods of Fenris you mean Morkai, the Sunwolf, the Firewolf, et al as I assume you do; they are supernatural beings very much opposed to the survival and good fortune of the men of Fenris, certainly not gods to be worshipped.
They worship the gods of fenris to apparently uppease them much like chaos worshipers do for their gods.
Sorry for the flaming guys i just get angry with all the SW hate, seems a bit tedious to be honest but everyones entitled to their opinion. And why would the SW stop persecuting the TS? They were ordered to do so by the big E and regardless of anything they are incredibly loyal.
And just a theory here but have you thought that maybe the E allowed the wolves to keep rune priests? Gulliman never threatens the wolves for not making chapters but he does fire on the IF, is it possible the E allows the SW free rein with the RPs, tactic, homicidal tendencies and legion size simply because he needs a uber loyal power house? he does after all let them get away with alot and he gave them extra senses over the other legions as well as the wulfen which i know makes them tougher. (an aspirant gains 80 percent muscle and bone mass after drinkin from the cup of the wulfen and then they get everythin standard SMs get)
Anyhoo i digress, basically do the SW get away with everything because the E needs them to be the toughest and meanest no matter what so hes always got an ace in hole?
even the 40k wolves get away with everything there must be a reason.
"It takes a lot of self control to be that dangerous"
It was made clear in the early HH books that the only Primarch that he worried would be able to stop his Heresy (and warn the Emperor) was Magnus the Red. Horus obviously then schemed with the Death Guard and Space Wolves to have Magnus dragged before the council, knowing that Magnus would use his psychic powers to warn the Emperor of Horus' treachery.
When Magnus did use his psychic powers, in violation of Nikaea, the Emperor dispatched Russ to retrieve Magnus. But instead, Russ went first to Horus, where he received different orders.
Horus therefore conspired with Russ (who was either an innocent, albeit stupid, accomplice or an active collaborator) to eliminate Magnus from Horus' plot to overcome the Emperor.
The only question is, why did the Emperor accept Russ' loyalty? Russ had already driven Magnus (the son who the Emperor was in contact with for the longest time) over to Chaos and violated a direct order from the Emperor. Russ also continued to flaunt the ruling of Nikaea by employing psykers. Finally, Russ continued to tolerate the mutations in his legion, allowing the chaos spawned horrors to serve alongside true Astartes.
I think the reason the Emperor kept Russ was because he needed the extra bodies. At the time, the Chaos Legions were rampaging across his Empire, and he needed help preserving it. He simply couldn't let another legion turn, whatever the cost.
The reason Russ stayed Loyal is far more interesting. Obviously he got a better deal with the Emperor than offered by Chaos, but what could it have been?
biccat wrote:It was made clear in the early HH books that the only Primarch that he worried would be able to stop his Heresy (and warn the Emperor) was Magnus the Red. Horus obviously then schemed with the Death Guard and Space Wolves to have Magnus dragged before the council, knowing that Magnus would use his psychic powers to warn the Emperor of Horus' treachery.
Pure speculation. We have proof that Horus tricked Russ into attacking Propero, but we are never told that he schemed with Mortarion and the Wolf to bring magnus to the trial. It is more likely that he had no influence over the council and simply took advantage of the situation.
biccat wrote:The reason Russ stayed Loyal is far more interesting. Obviously he got a better deal with the Emperor than offered by Chaos, but what could it have been?
Russ was simply loyal to the Emperor. Just as Magnus. It is said time and time again in the fluff. Russ was no Chaos worshiper. You are stating that Russ and the SW are renegades (in complete contradiction with the W40K cannon) simply because of their overall scary appearance and culture and because you don't like this legion. In other words, this is a completely subjective point of view without any support from the official fluff.
I hear it said many times that the Space Wolves are Space Vikings. Anyone who knows something of history knows that this is ridiculous. Like umm, long beards and horned helmets...
Viking was more of an occupation than a culture. Not all Norse were or went "viking".
The Wolves resemble the "Norse in space" as they have affected similarities. To me, the Space Wolves are more accurately Norse Berserkers in Space. Or, Were-Wolves in space.... take your pick.
I think it's unfair to classify them as stubbornly obtuse. There have been a few insights into their chapter which may indicate that they cultivate this view in order to manipulate those around them into a false sense of security.
Russ is, in fact, a Primarch. Behind the raucous affectation lies a brilliant and schrewd individual. One who loves his emperor father and may see, rivalries aside, like Guilliam, that there is more to the "Imperial Truth" than even they can understand.
I like the Space Wolves far more after reading the Heresy than I did while just reading the Codex, or playing against them on the gaming table.
Space Wolves are based on pop culture's depiction of vikings, so horned helmets and long beards. It is unreasonable to expect your consumers, or anyone really, to know anything about history especially nordic history. When making an army around real world cultures I don't think they have a history major in the board room going "actually vikings were blah blah blah". They probably ask "what seems viking to you?" And people expectedy write "horned helmets", "raiding", and "beards" on the whiteboard.
Laodamia wrote:Russ was simply loyal to the Emperor. Just as Magnus. It is said time and time again in the fluff. Russ was no Chaos worshiper. You are stating that Russ and the SW are renegades (in complete contradiction with the W40K cannon) simply because of their overall scary appearance and culture and because you don't like this legion. In other words, this is a completely subjective point of view without any support from the official fluff.
Renegades don't have to be chaos worshippers. There are plenty of renegade human forces, even Astartes.
Russ turned on a brother Primarch, probably the only one who could have stopped the Heresy, at the behest of the leader of the Traitor Legions.
Because of his attack on Prospero, Magnus believed that the Emperor had turned on him.
Russ employed psykers after the Council at Nikaea specifically prohibited such actions. Magnus prohibited the use of any sorcery after Nikaea, except the one situation where he had to warn the Emperor, and the warp was in such flux that normal astropaths couldn't send a message.
Russ tolerates mutants in his Legion. Magnus didn't tolerate mutants in his Legion, and went to great lengths to keep his legion free of mutants.
Magnus didn't want his followers to worship false gods, Russ encouraged and tolerated the worship of the Gods of Fenris.
I don't dislike the SW because of their appearance, or because of their culture, or because I don't like the legion (tautology?). I dislike the Space Wolves because they were obviously a traitor legion who drove the Thousand Sons to Chaos. Despite their heresy and chaotic structure, they're allowed to continue to serve the IoM, without any penance to the Emperor.
Finally, they're thugs, and I don't like thugs. Even the SMurfs, despite their many (MANY) failings, fight with honor. The SW are sneaky underhanded gits.
The SW are simply "ruthless" and their tolerated because of their combat record and their lyalty. Their main strength is their willingness to do anything to win, they killed the TH before knowing they were being played. What is your issue? their pure astartes, murderes without consciense as the E intended.
Their not traitors, they were misled like everyone else, stop using the fluff to justify statements and the ignoring other fluf to strengthen your point. They were misled but essentially loyal and their murderous streak is used for the good of the IoM for the most part.
asimo77 wrote:Space Wolves are based on pop culture's depiction of vikings, so horned helmets and long beards. It is unreasonable to expect your consumers, or anyone really, to know anything about history especially nordic history. When making an army around real world cultures I don't think they have a history major in the board room going "actually vikings were blah blah blah". They probably ask "what seems viking to you?" And people expectedy write "horned helmets", "raiding", and "beards" on the whiteboard.
I merely offered edification of the term viking (admittedly tinged with sarcasm) so often used in the descriptions of the Space Wolves. Norse Berserkers in space is far more interesting I think than a Space Viking (and more meaningful). Vikings in space might be appropriate for the gaming table, but not for the books as it make no sense.
My view is based on the Space Wolves of the books (especially the Heresy since that has been brought up) and not what might be viewed by the casual observer walking through a hobby store. In other words, "the game" space wolves. As with all Space Marines the game can't equal the fluff. Call the game 40k "lite". Anyone interested in the reflection of the game Wolves in the books might find what I mentioned interesting.
biccat wrote:I don't dislike the SW because of their appearance, or because of their culture, or because I don't like the legion (tautology?).
Not what I said. Read yourself, your point doesn't make any sense. I never tried to argue that "you don't the SW because you don't like the SW".
My point was that because you let your opinion on the SW influence your reasoning, your arguments are severely subjective and lack support from quotes or any official fluff.
One of your point is that the SW continued using libbies after Nikea, and can be thus described as hypocrites. I agree with this point, but every other legion owning librarians did the same. I consider Nikea as one of the great inconsistencies in the W40K fluff, since the Emperor made a clear and irrevocable point on the use of libbies, but every sigle legion seemed to simply ignore his decision (go figure).
Another of your argument is that the wolves worship their own gods, on the contrary of the sons who tried to resist the influence of the Chaos Gods. But the Emperor never tried to sanction the wolves for their religion. I don't understand why some people point out at the wolves' beliefs to argue they're renegades. And IMO, worshiping your own traditional deities is far better than ending up following the Chaos Gods, even if you tried to resist the influence of the Ruinous powers for some time.
Finally, one of your final point I would like to answer is that Magnus, the only one capable of stopping the HH, was attacked by Russ. here is a quote you might like to read:
Horus wrote:Two key obstacles to my ambitions are the Sons of Prospero and the Wolves of Fenris. The former is the only Legion that has lorecraft enough to hinder me magically; the latter is the only Legion dangerous enough to represent a genuine military threat.
Which explains why Horus tricked Russ (it was not his decision to attack Prospero) into attacking Magnus. He wanted to remove two major threats to his plans by setting them up against each other.
This has got to be the strangest thread I have ever read. I can understand the hypothetical situations that are discussed but the happenings of thousand sons are being discussed as if they are real! Strange.
Simo429 wrote:This has got to be the strangest thread I have ever read. I can understand the hypothetical situations that are discussed but the happenings of thousand sons are being discussed as if they are real! Strange.
Well the Prospero event was pretty significant. While you may be over the events that transpired there, I know many that are not. Just the other day while I was getting a cup of coffe at work, one of my co-workers walked up behind me and gave a soft wet leopard growl. Naturally my first instinct was to reach for my Heqa staff and unleash the power of the Great Ocean on him....but then I remembered company policy forbidding warp usage so restrained myself.
HO ho ho though when he got off work that night...bet he didn't count on a 23 eyed, 7 limb spawn waiting in his back seat. Now I have his parking place.
All i know is that everything was set up by tzeentch he played the game before magnus even made contact with the emperor and he played with the space wolves too he lured them to horus and knowing there never giving in stubborness set them upon the TS's the whole horus herasy was set up by the 4 chaos gods which i think is what people are forgetting
Planned by tze
blood for Khorne
spread of corruption for nurgle
and worshippers for slan
the only thing they couldn't control was the emperor and the final battle aboard the ship
everything else was planned and tbh there are not traitor legions just the ones that were always going to be drawn in for a certain purpose in the great plan of things.
(on a side note wolves were never traitors they needed to be pure to "judge" prospero and they could never turn chaos afterwords as then they had been decived and their stubborness prevented it)
Ofcourse all of this changes after the HH as thats when all future plans went up in smoke with horus now its just the period of Chaos within Chaos and them squabbling with each other but also semi- united trying to grab what they can of the material plain
(thousand sons never used daemons btw they used psychic avatars to guide them they are aspects of self almost like a spirit guide and no connection of corruption.)
Laodamia wrote:My point was that because you let your opinion on the SW influence your reasoning, your arguments are severely subjective and lack support from quotes or any official fluff.
By golly, you're right! My dislike of the Space Wolves is completely due to an irrational reading of the fluff and didn't involve connecting the dots between a traitor legion and a legion supporting the traitors as either a mindless stooge or a willing accomplace!
Time to burn my evil Thousand Sons army and invest in some missile launchers and razorspam.
I might even buy myself a fursuit so I can further show my opponents how awesome Space Wolves are!
(Yes, this really happened. Seriously. Well, the last one. Probably the part about ML and razorspam too.)
Simo429 wrote:This has got to be the strangest thread I have ever read. I can understand the hypothetical situations that are discussed but the happenings of thousand sons are being discussed as if they are real! Strange.
Well the Prospero event was pretty significant. While you may be over the events that transpired there, I know many that are not. Just the other day while I was getting a cup of coffe at work, one of my co-workers walked up behind me and gave a soft wet leopard growl. Naturally my first instinct was to reach for my Heqa staff and unleash the power of the Great Ocean on him....but then I remembered company policy forbidding warp usage so restrained myself.
HO ho ho though when he got off work that night...bet he didn't count on a 23 eyed, 7 limb spawn waiting in his back seat. Now I have his parking place.
Laodamia wrote:My point was that because you let your opinion on the SW influence your reasoning, your arguments are severely subjective and lack support from quotes or any official fluff.
By golly, you're right! My dislike of the Space Wolves is completely due to an irrational reading of the fluff and didn't involve connecting the dots between a traitor legion and a legion supporting the traitors as either a mindless stooge or a willing accomplace!
Time to burn my evil Thousand Sons army and invest in some missile launchers and razorspam.
I might even buy myself a fursuit so I can further show my opponents how awesome Space Wolves are!
(Yes, this really happened. Seriously. Well, the last one. Probably the part about ML and razorspam too.)
lol I never asked you to do all this. Keep playing TS, I think they have a great background and a cool paint scheme. And they don't have the nasty habit of putting spikes all over their armor like other CSM legions. They look a bit more civilized. And I never said the SW were awesome either. I do agree that they look sometimes a bit slowed. And I don't fancy the barbarian theme either. But when some SW haterz start throwing weird arguments against them, I get interested in the debate.
biccat wrote:Renegades don't have to be chaos worshippers. There are plenty of renegade human forces, even Astartes.
Russ turned on a brother Primarch, probably the only one who could have stopped the Heresy, at the behest of the leader of the Traitor Legions.
Wrong. Russ turned on Prospero at the Emperor's behest. He did so in a manner dictated by the Warmaster, who at the time was seen as absolutely the highest authority besides the Emperor himself.
Because of his attack on Prospero, Magnus believed that the Emperor had turned on him.
True.
Russ employed psykers after the Council at Nikaea specifically prohibited such actions. Magnus prohibited the use of any sorcery after Nikaea, except the one situation where he had to warn the Emperor, and the warp was in such flux that normal astropaths couldn't send a message.
When did Magnus ever stop sorcery amongst his men?
Russ tolerates mutants in his Legion. Magnus didn't tolerate mutants in his Legion, and went to great lengths to keep his legion free of mutants.
The Wulfen aren't mutants. They are the result of geneseed manipulation. Magnus had much the same problem before he made a deal with Tzeentch. The difference being that Russ holds is faith in the Emperor.
Magnus didn't want his followers to worship false gods, Russ encouraged and tolerated the worship of the Gods of Fenris.
And yet he shows it poorly, Ahriman suspects how Magnus saved the legion from the curse of flesh. Others probably do as well. And for the last time, show me a single reference to the 'gods of fenris' as being worshipped by the SW. There isn't one. They are primitive names for known 'spirits', like the machine spirit, etc. Firewolf is the volcanos, Sunwolf is the Sun, Morkai is death, etc. They aren't actually gods. They're shorthand.
I don't dislike the SW because of their appearance, or because of their culture, or because I don't like the legion (tautology?). I dislike the Space Wolves because they were obviously a traitor legion who drove the Thousand Sons to Chaos. Despite their heresy and chaotic structure, they're allowed to continue to serve the IoM, without any penance to the Emperor.
Citation needed. How are they obviously traitor? Because they followed the Emperor's will to go to Prospero and his designate's will in how it should be accomplished?
Magnus' ego drove the TS to chaos. If he had listened to his father, he would have been at his right hand on earth running the Astronomican. But no, he thought he knew best and forced the Emperor's hand.
Finally, they're thugs, and I don't like thugs.
True. Their job is to be the Emperor's Executioner, or thug if you would rather. To do the jobs that the hoity toity legions can't stomach.
Even the SMurfs, despite their many (MANY) failings, fight with honor. The SW are sneaky underhanded gits.
agree with everything you say petre apart from the gods thing, they worship them and act with them in mind, its the reason theyre known as pagans, spirits is the shorthand for gods not vice versa in this instance, appeasing the gods is an act of religion. They talk about the underverse and what not and even see space as an extension of the world sea, their pagan rituals are toleraterated as their faith keeps them loyal and harder to taint than the others.
And yeah they are direct AND underhanded, iknow it sounds silly but its just necesary deciept is still a direct action. A great and cunning man once said "all war is deception"
Umm no. SW follow the Imperial Creed, not a pagan religion. They interpret the Imperial Creed so that the Emperor is the Allfather, etc, but it is still the Imperial creed.
SW Codex, P35 - Wolf Priests: spiritual guides in the manner of a Space Marine Chaplain, each a living conduit that maintains the Chapter's connection to the Imperial creed.
The SW call various natural forces 'gods' but in the same way that there is a Machine Spirit and Machine God. They don't worship them, they observe their presence as forces in the universe. The only one they worship is the Emperor.
Amusingly enough, the Fenrisians, pre-induction to SW, consider the SW gods and Asaheim (the Fang), the home of the gods. (P6 SW Codex) So I guess the argument is do the SW consider themselves gods, if we consider their Fenrisian beliefs the problem?
They don't worship the emperor as a god though, just as the mightiest warrior to ever live. So they don't follow the imperial creed at all, they have their own beliefs.
Actually none of the Space marines worship him as a god IIRC, just as their creator.
Umm. Try to read the quote. Let me put it in quotes, so it is clearer:
SW Codex, P35 - Wolf Priests: wrote:spiritual guides in the manner of a Space Marine Chaplain, each a living conduit that maintains the Chapter's connection to the Imperial creed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They do follow the Imperial Creed.
Ooooh good question (no sarcasm intended) i hadnt thought of that, i suppose they think of themselves more like avatars of the emperors will but isnt that the same as thinking your divine? Finally something insightful about the wolves after so much irrational hate.
The wolves do beleive in the other gods though, read the bit about servitors being punished for wasting the time of the gods of iron (SW codex pg 38) and on pg 56 in the description of the axe morkai it says "reforged in the likeness of the twin headed wolf GOD morkai.
So i have to beg to differ on their religion but thanks for the point of their view of themselves, very interesting indeed.
Right, but my point is that they are using Gods in the form of Spirit there. The same as they talk about Machine Spirits, etc.
The Gods of Iron on P38 are in reference to SW Iron Priests who live on that island and teach fenrisians. "for this is the guise the Iron Priests maintain when dealing with mortal men."
Automatically Appended Next Post: And you missed the hyphen for Morkai, wolf-god. Quite different from Wolf God. P 10, Morkai is listed as the 'legendary two-headed wolf that guards the gates of death.'
I think you will find that P56 is refering to Morkai as a wolf-god or 'God amongst Wolves'.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Each case in the codex of them refering to Gods is actually them referring to SW from the point of view of Fenrisians.
And what about the refference to morkai? they maintain many of of their multigod beliefs even after induction even down to their beliefs about hell. They are pagans as they praise elemental forces exactly like the Norse religions did, thor was a god of thunder for example, to them the emperor is a god because of his martial prowess but he is just the greatest god among all gods, no flaming intended but have your the SW novels recently?
the rout wrote:And what about the refference to morkai? they maintain many of of their multigod beliefs even after induction even down to their beliefs about hell. They are pagans as they praise elemental forces exactly like the Norse religions did, thor was a god of thunder for example, to them the emperor is a god because of his martial prowess but he is just the greatest god among all gods, no flaming intended but have your the SW novels recently?
Yep, I reread Ragnar's books (written pre Codex) and the HH books (written at same time/post Codex). Cite me a page where it conflicts?
Automatically Appended Next Post: That was quick...
P3 of Space Wolf - About Ragnar: took a deep breath, intoned a prayer to the Emperor and waited.
Automatically Appended Next Post: P14 - Ragnar talks about the sky warriors: 'He told of the time of choosing when Russ had picked the best ten thousand warriors from all the clans, and led them off, never to be seen again, to fight in the wars of the gods.'
It's not really a multigod beliefs it's more...
They explain the large natural events through multiple massive supernatural creatures e.g. The iron wolf who created the mountains of Asaheim
P50 - Ranek explains Russ and the Emperor: "And so on back to the dawn of time when Russ walked among men, and the All Father, the Emperor fought his great wars against the powers of darkness."
P64 - Ragnar talks to himself: "The Imperium was ruled by the Emperor, The All Father, the crippled god..."
P74 - Ragnar prepares for death: "commended his soul to Russ and to the Emperor."
P77 - Ragnar prays to the Emperor "He offered up a prayer to Russ and to the Emperor for the safety of his soul."
But where does it say that these beliefs change after induction? not in the SW novel and not in codex, they are still a superstitious lot otherwise why form the axe that way? why all the wolf iconography thats representative of the wolf-gods of fenris? why the totems and the furs and the necklaces? it all screams ritual and religion, not of people with a flare for wolfy design.They are reffered to over and over again as pagans in the fluff. Opinion doesnt come into it, the fluff says i therefore it is true, only what it doesnt say can be speculated upon.
Umm. Did you not see the 6 quotes from 'the fluff' where it refers to them revering the Emperor as a god. I just searched all of Space Wolf and not once does Ragnar refer to any god but the Emperor, Leman Russ or the Chaos Gods after induction.
Automatically Appended Next Post: P8 - Ragnar's Claw - Ragnar talks about the Inquisitor: 'came all the way from the ancient homeworld of Terra, sacred home of the beloved God-Emperor himself'
Automatically Appended Next Post: P 34 - Ragnar's Claw - Ragnar talks derisively of a pagan temple: 'The thing seemed truly ancient, rooted in a time and place
beyond memory, when men worshipped other, more primitive gods. It was a heathen monument,'
Automatically Appended Next Post: P10 - Wolfblade - Ragnar talks about Magnus: 'a being only marginally less powerful than the God-Emperor himself.'
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oooh, found a contrary quote:
P51 - Sons of Fenris - Berek - "Berek gave quick, silent prayers to the Emperor, Leman Russ and the old gods of Fenris."
Interesting that this is the only reference I've found so far. Also funny, since all other references make the 'Old Gods' out to be the Space Wolves. Berek is praying to himself?
Automatically Appended Next Post: P90 - Sons of Fenris - 'The warriors of Fenris viewed the Fang with superstitious awe as the home of gods. In some ways, they were right; compared to ordinary men, the Space Wolves might as well be gods.'
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now show me one quote that disproves that...
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the rout wrote:But where does it say that these beliefs change after induction? not in the SW novel and not in codex, they are still a superstitious lot otherwise why form the axe that way? why all the wolf iconography thats representative of the wolf-gods of fenris? why the totems and the furs and the necklaces? it all screams ritual and religion, not of people with a flare for wolfy design.They are reffered to over and over again as pagans in the fluff. Opinion doesnt come into it, the fluff says i therefore it is true, only what it doesnt say can be speculated upon.
Oh and why the iconography? You could ask that of any of the chapters. It is tradition. 10k years is a long time. Tradition is what keeps organizations together. It is their heritage and their future. Ritual and tradition do not indicate gods, they indicate history.
The swearing in of a president is ritual and tradition, is it belief in a god? No, it allows us to connect history and the present.
Thats not the only quotes dude but unfortunately i dont have the book handy but can you explain all the odd rituals they practice? and the constant use of the word priest, or why the ecclesiarch refers to them as pagans? or the totems? sure they dismiss some of their earlier beliefs as primitive but they hold to their original beliefs in general hence why theyre viewed as barbaric. Reclaiming the gene seed is known as Rites of Morkai, can you explain why? im reading the WP page now and it even mentions their connection with the cycle of life and death, does that sound imperial creed to you?
P 109, Prospero Burns: "Heaven and hell are primitive concepts, aren’t they? Is it just the reassurance of old names?’
Fith didn’t reply for a moment. Then he said, ‘There’s still an Uppland, as far as I’m concerned. Just like there’s a Verse and an Underverse. And as for Hel, I know there’s a Hel. I’ve seen it several times.’
Yep, they still believe in Hel, in the concrete sense. As in 'War is Hell'.
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the rout wrote:Thats not the only quotes dude but unfortunately i dont have the book handy but can you explain all the odd rituals they practice? and the constant use of the word priest, or why the ecclesiarch refers to them as pagans? or the totems? sure they dismiss some of their earlier beliefs as primitive but they hold to their original beliefs in general hence why theyre viewed as barbaric. Reclaiming the gene seed is known as Rites of Morkai, can you explain why? im reading the WP page now and it even mentions their connection with the cycle of life and death, does that sound imperial creed to you?
Re-read the books. Seriously. They're imperial creed through and through with their own tinge. The same way that Blood Angels are with their rites of blood and dark angels are with their mysteries and knighthood.
There are more versions of the Imperial Creed than you could count. The Ecclesiarchy calls them pagans because of the form their worship takes, not the object of their worship. How is the cycle of life and death not part of the Imperial Creed?
Lexicanum:
"The Imperial Cult is the cult based on the worship of the Emperor as Master, Defender and Father of Mankind, developing following his internment in the Golden Throne."
"The Imperial Cult is the Imperium's state religion, and in many ways the religion is the state itself; it binds humanity together in the service of the Emperor and the Imperium."
"The precepts of the Imperial Cult, called the Imperial Creed, include the belief that all of humanity must be brought into the Imperium, the abhorrence of aliens, the realization that psykers and mutation among humanity is a dire threat which must be controlled."
"interpretation of particular Imperial Cult dogmas varies through the Imperium"
How
All SM chapter have their own version of the Imperial creed. This can range from unadulterated fury and zeal (Black Templars) to pagan-esque ceremonies (Silver Skulls, Space Wolves, Blood Angels)
I get what your saying guys but im inclined to disagree so well just have to agree to disagree me thinks, i think were a long way off point now, regardless of their view they are not stupid whichthe OP would suggest, and by the way its nice to discuss the SW without a contant stream of prejudice haters. Can anyone here explain why there so highly hated? im relatively new to dakka and i just dont get it at all...
the rout wrote:I get what your saying guys but im inclined to disagree so well just have to agree to disagree me thinks, i think were a long way off point now, regardless of their view they are not stupid whichthe OP would suggest, and by the way its nice to discuss the SW without a contant stream of prejudice haters. Can anyone here explain why there so highly hated? im relatively new to dakka and i just dont get it at all...
The heresy book Thousand Sons kinda presents them in a very bad light. The new codex is one of the top 3 and has a fair amount of cheese. The new codex apparently has every wargear piece with wolf as a prefix which is since they had most of them in the last codex and no one cared. Canis Wolfborn. Log Fangs. Razorspam. TWC spam. Rune priest spam. And simply because some people need something to hate... in about 6 months no one will care and the Space wolves will be a mid-level codex (I hope)
I play a very different SW list, I Put ragnar and grimnar and arjac in a LR with 5 claw and shield WG (2 qith melta bombs to mix up wound allocation) and fly it across the board asap so when i charge i can get +d3 attacks with PE and FC to boost it somewhat, i dont use RPs as their not killy enough and i dont use TWC as their expensive and the models available are too crap or too ahrd work to convert.
I dont even spam ML i prefer a mix of plas and las in my LFs and maybe a couple of meltas, i then use a pod for GHs, is this classed as cheese? i despise power players i think everyone should create a list based on what they like and not on sheer beardiness, though my hero squad is pretty nifty lol but for the price it should be
Let me interject just to say it smells an awful lot like fanboy in here.
Stick to canon and quit making subjective, over-the-top statements about your favorite chapter. This is a thought-provoking thread, not one to simply spit meaningless opinions at one-another.
Canon supports that fact that the Space Wolves have been some-what deviant (I say "some-what" loosely. They disregarded the council of Nikea by continuing to employ Rune Priests; the same type of offense for which Magnus was to be brought in front of the Emperor and at least chastened for), and the canon also supports that they are stubborn and single-minded to a fault. On top of that they actively encourage mutation.
I will say out-right that I do not like the Space Wolves. So for those of you who do, look at the canon facts against your beloved Chapter and simply let the person on the other side of the "argument" play devil's advocate.
Use facts. Only facts. Don't slump to bolstering facts with grandiose opinions inflated by your puppy love (pun definitely intended).
LOL so i assume you can think of anyone without strikes against them? Everyone does, now your mixing opinion with fluff but what should we expect from someone called cypher?
Wrong is point of view as is whats cool, if it smells like fanboy then leave us to it and find a thread more suited to your bitchy tendencies.
Guys...you are debating the philosophical aspects, written by science fiction authors...about imaginary space men...on an online forum. Don't let it affect you in real world ways.
the rout wrote:LOL so i assume you can think of anyone without strikes against them? Everyone does, now your mixing opinion with fluff but what should we expect from someone called cypher?
Wrong is point of view as is whats cool, if it smells like fanboy then leave us to it and find a thread more suited to your bitchy tendencies.
Excuse me? "Bitchy tendencies"? Now I'm offended.
*Edit:
Did I in some way insult you by encouraging facts that aren't bolstered by fanboy-ism? I find it odd you're saying I'm mixing opinion with fluff when that is exactly what my post is against.
AgeOfEgos wrote:Guys...you are debating the philosophical aspects, written by science fiction authors...about imaginary space men...on an online forum. Don't let it affect you in real world ways.
Also: +1. Keep the above words in mind at all times.
*Edit:
pretre wrote:So, what is your point, Cypher?
I apologize if I got off a bit from my main point and it got lost in my original post.
My point is what Age said, in many more words.
Every chapter has their quirks. Let the fluff say what it says whether it helps or hurts the public's opinion of your Chapter. Then when someone points out your Chapter's (why do I feel the need to capitalize that word?) "flaws", there is no need to get up-in-arms about it.
Im offended by puppy love and being accused of fanboyism because i like the wolves warts and all like all SM fans regardless of their short fallings, everyone made mistakes during the HH and yet you make out that the SWs were somehow the worst, in essence it was all Erebus's fault anyway....
the rout wrote:Im offended by puppy love and being accused of fanboyism because i like the wolves warts and all like all SM fans regardless of their short fallings, everyone made mistakes during the HH and yet you make out that the SWs were somehow the worst, in essence it was all Erebus's fault anyway....
(I'm making a concerted effort to stay respectful. Note that.)
Re-read my post. Not once did I do anything but state fiction-supported facts. Not once did I state that the Space Wolves made the most mistakes.
Any my puppy love comment seemed witty and humorous (note the pun). It fits. Don't let the fact that you feel your Chapter is being threatened make you feel the need to put words in my mouth and then insult me for them. Once again, as Age said, remember that this is all fiction. This is all about a made-up universe revolving around plastic figures made by a company bent on taking all my money.
Please. Relax. Get this thread back to conversation levels and out of the argument range.
Your right, i apologise, i just always assume wolf hate and add context to things that dont exist. Plus im quite argumentitive in general as you can probably tell lol.
Im so gonna get another warning lol and i genuinely dont mean to be flamey i guess im just a bit... zealous shall we say, im not actually angry btw just empassioned about my view, the internet is notorious for losing inflection in translation i guess.
So as Thousand Sons-centric as "A Thousand Sons" point of view is, is it the same for "Prospero Burns"? I've read "A Thousand Sons", and own "Prospero Burns" (it will be read right when I finish "Inquisition War"). So can I expect a re-telling of the same events, but through the Space Wolves perception?
-Cypher- wrote:So as Thousand Sons-centric as "A Thousand Sons" point of view is, is it the same for "Prospero Burns"? I've read "A Thousand Sons", and own "Prospero Burns" (it will be read right when I finish "Inquisition War"). So can I expect a re-telling of the same events, but through the Space Wolves perception?
More or less.
Though oddly enough for a novel entitled Prospero Burns there is surprisingly little burning of Prospero...
Also thank you for raising the point that you did...
I was wondering about it but couldn't phrase it in any respectful way.
-Cypher- wrote:So as Thousand Sons-centric as "A Thousand Sons" point of view is, is it the same for "Prospero Burns"? I've read "A Thousand Sons", and own "Prospero Burns" (it will be read right when I finish "Inquisition War"). So can I expect a re-telling of the same events, but through the Space Wolves perception?
I haven't started it for I'm still at Fulgrim, but a friend just read it and told me on msn when he was in the process of reading:
Spoiler:
"I'm through half of the book allready. Prospero isn't burning, but it gives a lot of background on Fenrisian culture.
pretre wrote:
Notice the Emperor and Mortarion's words. He is talking about folks who couldn't just use their powers for good, but kept going. That's the difference between Sorcery and Psykery.
Weird how the official, GW sanctioned novels describes witches, sorcerers and chaos worshipers as psykers.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:I like how the OP says that he thinks the SW are stupid for being stubborn, but he stubbornly holds his own position on SW regardless.
There's a reason for that. All the arguments put forward in this thread have reinforced my preconceptions of the space wolves, not weakened them.
Laodamia wrote:
My point was that because you let your opinion on the SW influence your reasoning, ....
I realize this wasn't aimed at me, but like I said in the OP, my opinion of the SW previous to reading A Thousand Sons was a positive one and I seriously considered starting a Space Wolves army.
I don't think A Thousand Sons is biased toward the Thousand Sons. It's clear from the first time "we see" Magnus the Red (when he comes out of the cave in the Mountain on Aghoru), that he's a bad dude. The whole reason why the author put Lemuel on the Mountain to witness Magnus the Red emerging from the cave is to show this. Everything else that happens there from the viewpoint of Lemuel could have been described in the Thousand Sons camp. Most of the Thousand Sons captains are also stuck up, arrogant, show offs. In fact, the only redeeming feature of the Thousand Sons I've read as of now (in A Thousand Sons) is Ahriman and his bud Ulthizzar or whatever his name is.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote:So read Prospero Burns and find your opinion neutralized.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or brought into equilibrium rather.
That might happen, but I doubt it.
pretre wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, all sorcerers are psykers, but not all psykers are sorcerers. Hence your confusion.
That's the most sense I've heard from a Space Wolf advocate all this thread, but what you're saying is that psykers and sorcerers gain their power from the same place. The exact thing most of the SW supporters argue against.
I don't... Rune Priests are quite blatantly psykers who channels their power through non-traditional means. They get their power from the same place and it can do the same things. Yes it was hypocritical of them to attack the Tsons for it but they were ordered to by Horus/Emperor so what they thought didn't really enter into it. Many other legions still had librarians (or equivalents) so the council of Nikea was more of a bitch slap to sorcery which only really affected the Tsons and Magnus.
purplefood wrote:I don't...
Yes it was hypocritical of them to attack the Tsons for it but they were ordered to by Horus/Emperor so what they thought didn't really enter into it.
That's my reason for thinking they're stupid and unthinking. I'll repeat something I said in a previous post in case you didn't catch it, like Tsun Tzu says "Plans seldom survive first encounter with the enemy." Which means you have to be flexible, you always have to take new information into account and always re-evaluate the situation based on its evolution, which the Space Wolves doesn't do in the slightest. Rigidity is a bad tactic in every single situation.
They do flexible tactics just not the reasons why they should be fighting in the first place.
As i said in a previous post, it is a flaw and one that is evident even in their current codex.
What new informatuin are you reffering to? ive read no valid reason why the SW would stop there censure of the TS, they were ordered to do it and they did it... whyw ould they change their minds?
They should have realised when the TSons didn't start shooting straight away that there was something not on the up and up.
In any case Russ should have contacted the Emperor for direct confirmation, no matter Horus' standing the death of an entire legion is a very serious thing.
Remember Russ was under the impression that Kasper was a spy for Magnus and was attempting to use him to communicate with his brother in order to avoid blood shed. But things weren't as he had suspected, both sides had been tricked.
Russ' belief that he could reach his brother through Kasper was according to the information they had a valid belief. It just didn't work out that way, exactly as had been planed.
-Cypher- wrote:Any my puppy love comment seemed witty and humorous (note the pun).
To be fair, the terms "puppy love", "space puppies" or "fanboyism" are intentionally offensive and are meant to mock the person these words are destined. I perfectly understand that it was not your intention to do so , but your words have their own meanings, especially on an online forum where understanding the author's attitude is quite delicate. This is why I always try to avoid these ambiguous phrases.
Back on topic, I agree with purple's last post. One of Russ' great mistakes was not to report to the emperor for confirmation of Horus' directives. Especially on such a grave matter as the destruction of an entire Legion. I take it as a proof of the stubbornness and (occasional) stupidity of Russ and (by extension) the SW. I guess they played the role of the stupid barbarians too much and actually started to behave like ones.
This is not the only example of a grave misjudgment by the wolves. Even in "Prospero Burns", which was supposed to convey a great image of the wolves, I found various grave errors made by this legion.
the rout wrote:What new informatuin are you reffering to? ive read no valid reason why the SW would stop there censure of the TS, they were ordered to do it and they did it... whyw ould they change their minds?
Either you are not reading my posts, or you do not understand the words that are in them. "Being ordered to" is not a valid reason to stop thinking. The only reason they needed to use their tiny little brains was that killing his BROTHER and dooming an entire legion is not something to take lightly, which Russ obviously did, since he didn't question it in the slightest. It's repeated over and over throughout the Horus Heresy series that fratricide is one of the greatest crimes an Astartes warrior can perpetrate.
purplefood wrote:They should have realised when the TSons didn't start shooting straight away that there was something not on the up and up.
In any case Russ should have contacted the Emperor for direct confirmation, no matter Horus' standing the death of an entire legion is a very serious thing.
Russ gives Magnus every chance to surrender that he can. He makes no secret of his approach and tries to speak to Magnus through his tool Hawser.
All Magnus had to do was give himself up. And in the end, he showed himself by not doing so and fleeing from the Emperor's Servant.
It's also clear in PB that Russ doesn't want to do it, but the Emperor has asked him to. How do we know that it came from the Emperor? Because Russ knows what Magnus told the Emperor, that Horus was turning from the Emperor. Both the E and Russ consider it foolish.
the rout wrote:What new informatuin are you reffering to? ive read no valid reason why the SW would stop there censure of the TS, they were ordered to do it and they did it... whyw ould they change their minds?
Either you are not reading my posts, or you do not understand the words that are in them. "Being ordered to" is not a valid reason to stop thinking. The only reason they needed to use their tiny little brains was that killing his BROTHER and dooming an entire legion is not something to take lightly, which Russ obviously did, since he didn't question it in the slightest. It's repeated over and over throughout the Horus Heresy series that fratricide is one of the greatest crimes an Astartes warrior can perpetrate.
purplefood wrote:They should have realised when the TSons didn't start shooting straight away that there was something not on the up and up.
In any case Russ should have contacted the Emperor for direct confirmation, no matter Horus' standing the death of an entire legion is a very serious thing.
Thank you for giving an exact example.
You aren't understanding that as far as Russ knew he was giving Magnus a chance to surrender before unleashing his Legion upon them, when no reply came from his brother it was decided that he had no other choice. And where exactly does it say that Russ was simply ordered to bring Magnus in? I don't recall reading that anywhere. So as far as we know his orders were vague or passed onto him from the Emperor through Horus, considering Horus was the Warmaster. Considering that Russ knew first hand what happened when you questioned certain orders he knew full well that this would be one of the ones that you follow. After all its hinted that the Unknown Legions were censored for not following their orders and Magnus failed to follow orders which is what lead to his censorship.
Why would he question it? the E gave Horus the Title Warmaster and the free rein to order the other primarchs around, why would Russ question this? As far as Russ was concerned Horus's will and the Emperors will were one and the same, if your an employee at say mcdonalds and you assistant manager says stop making burgers would you go ask the manager to confirm? I dont think you would, and Magnus not firing wasnt weird, Tizca had no friggin guns! firing non existant guns would have been reall weird.
Your saying hes stupid for not questioning the authority the E told him to follow, plus since sending messages through the warp was extremely difficult at this point in the time line do you really think Russ travelling all the way to terra to say "daddy are you sure about this?" would have sensible or even a viable option?
It was a mistake in hindsight but if you really think about it how could Russ have known to do anything differently?
Orders are orders and Russ was nothing if not thorough.
It isn't just hinted. It is strongly indicated that the Wolves were unleashed on the other two or at least their primarchs already.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In PB, the orders came from the Emperor. Not from Horus. Read the subtext of P333 and 334. Horus wouldn't have told Russ that Magnus was warning him that he was a traitor.
All I see on those pages is Hawser talking with Valdor, Fulgrim and Russ about a mans character and grooming people to be spies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Horus would have told Russ that Magnus had broken the edict of Nikea. Still though if the orders came from the Emperor and PB doesn't have Horus appear and inform Russ of what to do than wouldn't that suggest Russ was following his Father's instructions?
‘My lord,’ said Hawser. ‘What… what did your brother do?’
‘He performed an act of maleficarum that drove his sorcery
right to the heart of Terra and into the presence of the Emperor,’
said Helwintr.
...
‘Magnus claimed that great Horus was about to turn against the
Imperium,’ said Russ. ‘From the look on your face, Ahmad Ibn
Rustah, I see you recognise how ridiculous that sounds.’
...
‘Truth is, it’s the proof I need that Magnus is desperately trying
to coordinate a campaign of disinformation to support his ruse.
He doesn’t need to answer through you, skjald. He’s answered
already.’
...
‘Take him away, but keep him with us, right to the advance. I
want that channel to my brother left open. My poor brother. I
want him to see us coming. I want him to know it’ll never be too
late for him to beg for mercy.’
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yes, those passages have no Horus instructions. So it is pretty clear that Russ is following his father. I excerpted it in the spoiler.
Thanks Pretre, so I ask again Brother... cant be bothered scrolling up to find out the rest of your name, what information should Russ have observed that would warrant him ceasing in his destruction? as far as i can tell he was justified in his attack and the big E agreed, He may have been still using RPs but that didnt ruin a century long plan now did it? nor did it incriminate the Warmaster who at the time was thought to be incorruptable, i know you dont like the wolves but is that really a justification for ignoring the existing canon?
I didn't say anything about him needing to cease. I feel Russ was correct in his actions, you should speak to PurpleFoods and should you wish to adress me again I suggest you bother scrolling to learn the rest of the name. It's polite to do so after all The Rout.
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pretre wrote:lol. Yes, BrotherS, we're on the 'same page'. We just got wrapped up in quotes. lol
Sorry for not scrolling dude its just im using my phone to view this page and its painfully slow, the perspective of my page is also really close so i didnt realise that part of your post was a quote of sixkillas (the bit about tiny little brains flamed me somewhat)
Glad you agree they were justified, not to mention im glad they did it, not because I dislike the TS because I dont but because the battle was pretty epic from both perspectives, I think we all love a good and the Prospero one is one of my favourites. And though im a devout SW lover (as my name would suggest) I think wyrdmake totally deserved what happened to him, the guy was a douche.
My apologies Brotherstynier, I really need a PClol i keep flaming because i cant read properly on this damn tiny screen.
Wyrdmake was indeed a douche, there were ways that he could have handled things better. The Legion as a whole however, they did what they needed to do and the tragedy of this isn't that the Thousand Sons were wrongfully punished (not that I think that, they were arrogant and their Captain's did go against Magnus' order to not attack), but that this whole battle between brothers could have been avoided if things had just happened differently between them.
The most awesome and messed up thing is that they were both in the right and both in the wrong at the same time, really compelling stuff. The TS were arrogant in the extreme its true but all astartes are to a degree.
I really dislike Magus though, he thinks hes even above Emperor and that is the worst thing any of the Primarchs can do.
I suppose but since Magnus values knowledge above all thing i think him believing he knows more than the E and thinking hes better are probably the same thing to him.
Seems odd to me that Magnus is the only uber psyker primarch, theres at least two of everything else, siege craft is dorn and perturabo, theres plenty of psychos, and plenty of close in fight specialist and plenty of awesome leaders but i digress (as usual)
I wander why everyone assumed Kasper was Magnus's spy, he could have been anyones, why assume Magnus?
Im asking you brotherS, you seem pretty damn knowledgeable.
Remember that Sanguinius as well was a Psyker, albiet not to the level that Magnus was. In spite of this I would be willing to believe that maybe one of the two Unknown Primarchs was a Psyker.
Perhaps because they figured Magnus had the resources to groom a spy for such a long period of time, after all being Astartes they would have access to most Astartes battle records up to that time, and Hawser did have previous interactions with the Thousand Sons. The Wolves in researching him after his odd request to be allowed to study them, which I would assume his higher ups would report as his is terribly afraid of Wolves, would have discovered his encounter with them.
Logic could dictate it be the Thousand Sons that plant the Spy, after all they seem to trust the Wolves the least, and they are knowledge hungry, and not many know the Space Wolves other than their blood thirsty tactics, and they may have wished to know more about their brothers out of curiosity and the desire to have something on them if they needed it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I do, how ever believe like pretre has said that
Spoiler:
It wasn't the Sons that Programed him, and that it was the Daemon as I believe they pretty much flat out said.
VenerableBrotherPelinore wrote:
Priest is a title, not an indication of religion,
Priest is a religious title. Also, there's instances where entire planet populations have been exterminated because they used non-secular titles and words for things that weren't really.
While i do agree that rune priests most likely get their powers from the Warp, i do not agree that just because they are called "priests" they are automatically spiritual and religious guides/leaders. We are after all talking about a universe where "librarians" means a 2,5 meter tall genetically engineered killing machine, who in addition to his already considerable bad@$$ery can shoot lightning out of his eyes, and cigarettes are called lho-sticks.(That is by the way a word I dislike strongly. I just feel a bad taste in my mouth after saying it.) So the idea that the title "priest" can mean something else than "religious leaders" isn't too far off. Though the actual religious leaders of the Space Wolves are called Wolf Priests, maybe it's a more flexible term in the 40k universe?
It's possible Horus messed with the communications between the Emperor and Russ without either of them knowing.
And yes although Russ made his own mistakes Magnus equally made his own, he could have simply hailed the fleet and surrendered in which case the Wolves would have brought both him and his legion to Terra possibly in time for the seige and maybe the entire thing would have worked out differently...
the rout wrote: wander why everyone assumed Kasper was Magnus's spy, he could have been anyones, why assume Magnus?
Because it's who the Wolves are most suspicious of I would guess. I thought myself that it was going to be an agent of Erebus, I was kinda close in a way
I didn't think on it until I read the posts since my last one but a good point was raised - What of Horus discussion with Russ? I do hope they cover it and don't forget about it as otherwise it is a bit of a d'oh.
Personally I think Russ chose not to reveal the communication from Horus. He was itching for a 'reconciliation' with Magnus and Horus gave him what he wanted, the chance to take him out. I think this is quite a good reason as their own Skjald was privy to the same knowledge, to ignore it otherwise seems a bit of a risk. Look what happened after they did ignore it. I am pretty sure that Russ would not have told the Emperor about how they came about the information either.
And on giving Magnus a chance, he's his brother, he can't not give him a chance or at least appear too. I imagine he holds his hand out but would pull it away should Magnus go for it, sorry to slow. There is no love loss between those two. It's another one of the Masks that the 'Executioner' wears.
He loved Magnus dude, he didnt like the guy but he loved him, and the big E sent Russ. Im just not sure how Russ went from his speech to Magnus to the mass bombarding but hey each to their own, and Magnus may have bben the only psyker Primarch capable of making a spy but im sure a few libbies from other legions could have managed to make something like hawser, They do refer to "every legion having networks of spies" so why just assume TS? seems odd to me.
And i completely agree with your last point purplefood, if theyd both made it to the siege things would have been differemt, and i personally think if Horus had faced the psychic might of Magnus at the same time as Russ's ferocity that the Emperor wouldnt have even had to bother fighting him, Horus may have been tough, but the power of Russ and Magnus combined would have made him look as weak as Alpharius IMO.
the rout wrote:And i completely agree with your last point purplefood, if theyd both made it to the siege things would have been differemt, and i personally think if Horus had faced the psychic might of Magnus at the same time as Russ's ferocity that the Emperor wouldnt have even had to bother fighting him, Horus may have been tough, but the power of Russ and Magnus combined would have made him look as weak as Alpharius IMO.
Indeed, it is said in "prospero burns" by this daemon in the form of Horus that the main threats to Chaos' great plans are Magnus and Russ. Which explains why Chaos organised the confrontation between the two, to remove these two major threats in a single blow.
Such a shame what happened to Magnus, he was an arrogant git but still pretty awesome. And yeah I agree withyou Alpha but you gotta admit the fight between them was pretty epic, especially since neither of them wanted to fight but had to regardless.
the rout wrote:Such a shame what happened to Magnus, he was an arrogant git but still pretty awesome. And yeah I agree withyou Alpha but you gotta admit the fight between them was pretty epic, especially since neither of them wanted to fight but had to regardless.
Maybe they didn't want to fight each other at first, but by the end of the book, when they finally dueled each other, it really looks like the were able to overcome they moral issues. I mean, throwing psychic bolts at the face of your brother doesn't really sound like a loving fraternal act. Neither does stabbing your brother in the eye or breaking his spine on your knee.
the rout wrote:Such a shame what happened to Magnus, he was an arrogant git but still pretty awesome. And yeah I agree withyou Alpha but you gotta admit the fight between them was pretty epic, especially since neither of them wanted to fight but had to regardless.
Maybe they didn't want to fight each other at first, but by the end of the book, when they finally dueled each other, it really looks like the were able to overcome they moral issues. I mean, throwing psychic bolts at the face of your brother doesn't really sound like a loving fraternal act. Neither does stabbing your brother in the eye or breaking his spine on your knee.
I'm not sure but at that point i think Magnus had fully gone over to Chaos...
Laodamia wrote:Maybe they didn't want to fight each other at first, but by the end of the book, when they finally dueled each other, it really looks like the were able to overcome they moral issues. I mean, throwing psychic bolts at the face of your brother doesn't really sound like a loving fraternal act. Neither does stabbing your brother in the eye or breaking his spine on your knee.
As much as they may have human seeming emotions, Astartes are only barely human. Once they enter a fight, they kill what they are fighting or die trying; primarchs doubly so. That's what they were literally made to do. Did you expect a tearful slap fight or some purple nurples and noogies? Of course not, they used everything in their possession to win and kill their opponent.
i still think magnus didn't fight int he end as he had to lose because the wolves had to survive because (him having the greatest forsight of any living man bar the emperor)they needed to save the imperium and that the sons even being powerful wouldn't be accepted to fight along side their brother son terra he did the ultimate sacrifice to save what he could even if it meant his own damnation and even now i don't think he is completely evil pretty much all he does is sit in his tower with his legions on the planet of sorcerers (it why he got annoyed with ahriman for using the rubic how could they ever be redeemed if the warriors are automotans maybe they deserve the punishment and sacrifice they made) its ahriman who is more chaos as he is leading his thousand sons into combat to gain knowledge
Alphacerberus wrote:i still think magnus didn't fight int he end as he had to lose because the wolves had to survive because (him having the greatest forsight of any living man bar the emperor)they needed to save the imperium and that the sons even being powerful wouldn't be accepted to fight along side their brother son terra he did the ultimate sacrifice to save what he could even if it meant his own damnation and even now i don't think he is completely evil pretty much all he does is sit in his tower with his legions on the planet of sorcerers (it why he got annoyed with ahriman for using the rubic how could they ever be redeemed if the warriors are automotans maybe they deserve the punishment and sacrifice they made) its ahriman who is more chaos as he is leading his thousand sons into combat to gain knowledge
Apart from every now and again plotting increasingly convoluted plans to destroy the Space Wolves and Fenris.
Alphacerberus wrote:i still think magnus didn't fight int he end as he had to lose because the wolves had to survive because (him having the greatest forsight of any living man bar the emperor)they needed to save the imperium and that the sons even being powerful wouldn't be accepted to fight along side their brother son terra he did the ultimate sacrifice to save what he could even if it meant his own damnation and even now i don't think he is completely evil pretty much all he does is sit in his tower with his legions on the planet of sorcerers (it why he got annoyed with ahriman for using the rubic how could they ever be redeemed if the warriors are automotans maybe they deserve the punishment and sacrifice they made) its ahriman who is more chaos as he is leading his thousand sons into combat to gain knowledge
Apart from every now and again plotting increasingly convoluted plans to destroy the Space Wolves and Fenris.
isn't that just ahriman? and if i am wrong i assume madness xD also i apologize for my lack of grammer it was a rushed mess up of a sentance, i just kept adding to.
Even outside of the SW series he tries to destroy them...
He managed to lay siege to the Fang for 40 days before the rest of the chapter caem back and kicked his arse... although the Great Wolf at the time got toasted by Magus after he smacked him a few times.
pretre wrote:In the Space Wolf series of books, Magnus is central to several attempts to destroy the Space Wolves.
then i bow to superior knowledge and lack of reading the space wolves omnibus im just assumign magnus is now mad and trying to get russ back for not seeing he was trying to save the imperium
pretre wrote:In the Space Wolf series of books, Magnus is central to several attempts to destroy the Space Wolves.
then i bow to superior knowledge and lack of reading the space wolves omnibus im just assumign magnus is now mad and trying to get russ back for not seeing he was trying to save the imperium
Actually i think he is just pissed at them 'cos they ruined his home and forced him to betray the Emperor to save themselves... oddly enough i don't think they realised that Horus had tricked them into attacking them and i don't think the Wolves have realised that either.
pretre wrote:In the Space Wolf series of books, Magnus is central to several attempts to destroy the Space Wolves.
then i bow to superior knowledge and lack of reading the space wolves omnibus im just assumign magnus is now mad and trying to get russ back for not seeing he was trying to save the imperium
Actually i think he is just pissed at them 'cos they ruined his home and forced him to betray the Emperor to save themselves... oddly enough i don't think they realised that Horus had tricked them into attacking them and i don't think the Wolves have realised that either.
very true and even behind horus there was tzeentch which makes it even MORE complex xD
pretre wrote:In the Space Wolf series of books, Magnus is central to several attempts to destroy the Space Wolves.
then i bow to superior knowledge and lack of reading the space wolves omnibus im just assumign magnus is now mad and trying to get russ back for not seeing he was trying to save the imperium
Actually i think he is just pissed at them 'cos they ruined his home and forced him to betray the Emperor to save themselves... oddly enough i don't think they realised that Horus had tricked them into attacking them and i don't think the Wolves have realised that either.
very true and even behind horus there was tzeentch which makes it even MORE complex xD
#
Ironically Magnus then goes to Tzeentch... i wonder if he knows the truth?
pretre wrote:I think the 'Horus tricked russ' thing is a red herring or revisionist history (in the fluff) at this point.
Magnus broke the rules pretty severely and destroyed the Big E's plan. He also consorted with Chaos.
The Big E sent Leman Russ to take care of it. The Big E knows exactly who and what Russ and the Wolves are. He knew what would happen.
Horus didn't have to say a darn thing for the outcome to be the way it was.
He was the Emperor's second hand man and in command of all and every military force in the Imperium, he kinda did have a say especially if the order was routed through him to the Wolves. The Emperor probably thought Magnus would surrender but they didn't and the Wolves attacked the forcing them to defend themselves.
Horus could have told Russ to pick daisies and give them to Magnus and it wouldn't have gone down like that. Because he is Leman Russ and that's not how he rolls.
The Emperor picked Leman to sanction Magnus. Do you really think he doesn't know how Leman works?
Simo429 wrote:This has got to be the strangest thread I have ever read. I can understand the hypothetical situations that are discussed but the happenings of thousand sons are being discussed as if they are real! Strange.
Yes, it is real and strange... real strange indeed.
Personally, I think your use of this pseudo "double-speak" is exactly what the chaos powers would do to make us think the books had no bearing on what we think is real. You say you think the thread is strange, but actually you're really trying to tell us what we are talking about is really real.
pretre wrote:But Horus didn't pick who went. The Emperor did.
Horus could have told Russ to pick daisies and give them to Magnus and it wouldn't have gone down like that. Because he is Leman Russ and that's not how he rolls.
The Emperor picked Leman to sanction Magnus. Do you really think he doesn't know how Leman works?
Leman Russ would have done what the Emperor told him to do. If he had told Leman Russ to reinforce Prospero and defend it to the death he would have done so.
Horus didn't pick who went but he guessed who would have gone since the SW were designed as the excecutioners, and he messed with the orders to suit his needs.
I consider that pretty clear as it is...
Considering most of Tzeetch's plans this one is like a picture drawn by a 12 year old in comparison to some of his other works.
Another point as to why the Big E knew what was going down, he sent Constantin Valdor, The Custodes and the Sisters of Silence with Russ. Horus couldn't have done that, he doesn't have command over Valdor and Russ wouldn't need them unless it was a full sanction. Valdor also would have known if this was a 'Hot' sanction or not before he left Terra.
Why would the Emperor send the a full battle-force of Custodes and Sisters of Silence to go retrieve Magnus unless he knew that Russ would need them?
pretre wrote:Another point as to why the Big E knew what was going down, he sent Constantin Valdor, The Custodes and the Sisters of Silence with Russ. Horus couldn't have done that, he doesn't have command over Valdor and Russ wouldn't need them unless it was a full sanction. Valdor also would have known if this was a 'Hot' sanction or not before he left Terra.
Why would the Emperor send the a full battle-force of Custodes and Sisters of Silence to go retrieve Magnus unless he knew that Russ would need them?
Maybe he thought Russ would need
1)A show of force beyond the legions
2)A mark of legitimacy to show he was an agent of the Empror and not one of Horus (Magnus knew Horus was going traitor so he may have attacked Russ instead of surrendering)
3)Something to show the Empror really was displeased
We don't know how or when Horus messed with the orders, maybe he relayed some faked ones as soon as Russ dropped into real space over Prospero.
Hard to say what was going on. So many good points here.
I read "The First Heretic" and the Emperor speaks to Lorgar and the Word Bearers in a manner which gives me the impression that had he wanted, he could have 'sanctioned' Magnus to death from light years away.
Because the Emperor was 'busy', he sent what he felt was necessary to equal or surpass what power he percieved to be present at the intended target.
Being the Emperor, how could he NOT know how Russ would handle things? Perhaps he thought Russ might be reigned in by the presence of the Sisters and Custodes?
Not-to-mention the Emperor may have thought it imprudent to handle this last event personally and left it to others. Beratting a Primarch was one thing, eliminating one is another.
Personally, I think the Emperor was aware of everything. The presence of the Sisters and Custodes (other than being a psychic 'equalizer') was simply the Emperor putting his stamp on things. Which I think is the sole purpose for the Custodes anyway.
I don't think Russ' primary reaction to meeting another primarch is "attack" Russ does what Russ is told by the Emperor. If the Emperor says to bring Magnus in that's what he does, if he tell Russ to kill him then he kills him. If Horus did mess with the orders without anyone knowing both the wolves and the sons are ffectively absolved of the incident. If Russ did know of the change in orders then he is entirely guilty for not checking in. If Magnus knew then he is guilty for not surrendering to Russ and using that to get his legion to Terra to help the Emperor.
I think that what happened to Magnus was unavoidable regardless of whether the orders came from the big E or were tampered with by Horus, Tzeetch wanted magnus and being the architect of fate and all it was going to happen. Horus had no need to intervene either because Russ is quite a violent dude, that being said, why would the emperor NOT want Magnus dead? he broke the edict of nikea, ruined the GT and since it was ruined Magnus no longer served a purpose as far as the big E was concerned. Magnus may have been loyal but in a way he still deserved to die for breaking the Emperors ruling, the primarchs may see themselves as sons but for the most part i think the Emperor saw them as tools, im not condeming the Emperor for this though, he made them like a Man makes a gun, if you had a gun that no longer shot why would you leave it around?
He didn't deserve to die...
IMO none of the primacrhs did, the entire Heresy is tragic, full of half-truths and outright lies...
The entire heresy can be placed squarely on 2 individuals in the Word Bearers legion and it pains me that they survived.
Even without Horus's betrayal the council of nikea would have happened and Magnus would need sanctioning for it, the Emperor was quite harsh in his punishments towards the primarchs but a rogue primarch is much to dangerous to be left breathing. Mgnus showed his willingness to defy the EoM and therefore deserved what he got, he knew how the Emperor would respond and if he did it in an act of noble self sacrifice then he should deal with the consequences. My favourite Primarch is Russ but if they wrote the end times fluff now and Russ came back corrupted id say he deserves the exact same fate, the primarch were made to serve and if they fail in this they are broken tools and nothing more.
It sounds harsh and i was heartbroken when Magnus died and Ferrus Manus and though i hate the Smurfs with a passion ill probs be upset when papa smurf bites it but those are just emotions and opinions, from the Emperors perspective its the only viable course of action and i respect him for doing what is necesary regardless of the cost.
I personaly like the wolves very much. if there was one thing they did that i disagreed with however it was the burning of prospero. you have to admit that it was not exactly the space wolves fault. they were under orders from the emperor and out of his loyalty Russ was going to compleate the job. If you raely want to look at it in deapth it is actualy the emperor who was being pigheaded an stupid. Magnus tried to warn the emporor of horus' trechery. the Emperor instead of heeding his words condeemed magnus and his chapter for witchcraft even though magnus had good intentions and was clearly demonstrating his loyalty and trying to warn and protect the emperor. the emperor was so atacched to horus that he was blinded to the fact that what magnus had said was true. Hecould not and would not belaive that his beloved warmaster would betray him. If you look at the fluff of the wolves after the heresy the are actually a noble and very noble force. when the high lords of terra are out of line they openly apose it. the are enemies of the imperial inqisiton because of how often the Inqisiton condeem inecent souls as gon to chaos. to me at least they apaer to be one of the only true forces of good left still fighting on the side of the imperium.
Hear Hear Ranek, just of topic but wasnt Ragnar trained by Ulrik in the original fluff and even in the 5e codex? why does everyone mix the two up? And believe me i agree with you about the Wolves, I actually find SW hate threads just so i can defend em lol, I just finished a 6k match like an hour ago, sadly i got beat by BAlol But as always ragnar reaped a lovely tally of 17, anyhoo i digess, the E wasnt really being pig headed regardless of what Magnus said to him he had still broken the Emperors loyalty, Golden throne, and plans for the imperium, surely these crimes warrant a death sentence?
No. They don't.
Magnus wasn't just a single primacrh he was a great asset in both his legion and his powers. Killing him without giving him a chance for redemption would have been stupid. I believe the Emperor sent Russ to bring him in.
So why would Russ bombard an apparently undefened Tizca so heavily? If Magnus was to be apprehended why would Russ risk his life? Russ was loyal in the extreme and i cant see him doing anything he wasnt ordered to, and during the nikea council the big E did say hed kill anyone found to be in its violation.
And how much of an asset could Magnus be after destroying the GT and stopping taking part in the crusade in a sulk over the Emperors decision? He messed up alot of things that couldnt be rectified, why should he be beyond punishment?
Magnus caused more problems for the Emperor than he did solutions and needed to be put down lest he cause even more, I liked Magnus too but your letting opinion dilute logic IMO.
Horus changed the orders.
Magnus is one of the most powerful psykers ever. If reconciled with the emperor he could once again become a powerful leader especially if he was assigned to help protect, find and conserve knowledge.
This isn't logic. Logic isn't killing smeone because they present an easily solvable solution, logic would be approaching the situation with a thought for the person on the other side.
Magnus broke the Golden Throne Man, the Emperors best chance at freeing humanity from the threat of chaos was destroyed by an unruly son who thought he knew what was best. Hed been ordered to stop his use of witch craft but proceeded as if nothing had happened, the Imperium is much worse off because of this. Magnus needed punishong and IMO even killing for this crime and the petulence that lead to it.
And since Magnus was created to sit on the golden throne why keep him around after he destroyed it? He was useless, hed never been the best at crusading and he was fast becoming a liability and in the Emperors eyes even seen to be trying to satart a civil war (the big E thought Horus would never turn at this point) So he needed to be killed. How many strikes does he need against him before you think he deserves it?
1) Went against the Emperors ruling
2) Broke the Golden THrone
3) Became obselete after doing number 2
4) Tried to incriminate Horus which the Emperor would have seen as treason
5) He bargained with chaos to control the TS mutation
6) His sons killed custodes and SoS who are under the direct command of the Emperor
7) The gene seed was unstable and therefore risky to keep using
8) Even with all that psychic might he was still only a mediocre crusade
9) He was more interested in knowledge than the Emperors vision
10) He not only used psyker powers but sorcery too
Thats 10 things against him, why should he be able to get away with it? He was a sorceror and couldnt follow orders, not killing him would have been illogical and risky.
pretre wrote:Another point as to why the Big E knew what was going down, he sent Constantin Valdor, The Custodes and the Sisters of Silence with Russ. Horus couldn't have done that, he doesn't have command over Valdor and Russ wouldn't need them unless it was a full sanction. Valdor also would have known if this was a 'Hot' sanction or not before he left Terra.
Why would the Emperor send the a full battle-force of Custodes and Sisters of Silence to go retrieve Magnus unless he knew that Russ would need them?
He sent them to support Russ to show that Russ acted with the Emperors entire authority and if things did get nasty, what better to send against a bunch of wizards then blanks. It was a deterrent and a fall back plan is things went bluebirds up.
Russ was dispatched by the Emperor and the message from Horus was received en route to Prospero, even after the images were pulled from Hawsers mind. It doesn't matter how Horus did it but he did, and as Warmaster he acts with the authority of the Emperor. Russ wanted to kill Magnus, otherwise he might have been a bit more suspicious.
I bet Russ was kicking himself after this all ended.
the rout wrote:
1) Went against the Emperors ruling
As did the Space Wolves
the rout wrote:2) Broke the Golden THrone
Strike 1
the rout wrote:3) Became obselete after doing number 2
Not entirely true. The Emperor had to remain on the Golden Throne after this to ensure that the webway wasn't breached further. Magnus might have been intended to be the battery to power it but he at least could've been the plug in the hole. Maybe this is why the Emperor wanted Russ to bring him back rather than have him killed. To imprison him on the Golden Throne and at least make him useful.
the rout wrote:4) Tried to incriminate Horus which the Emperor would have seen as treason
If he did it by any other means it might have been a different story.
the rout wrote:5) He bargained with chaos to control the TS mutation
But was the Emperor aware of this or anyone else - true, it was a bad thing to do but what everyone else don't know doesn't hurt them
the rout wrote:6) His sons killed custodes and SoS who are under the direct command of the Emperor
True - but when the Wolves started killing stuff then an Astartes is going to retaliate
the rout wrote:7) The gene seed was unstable and therefore risky to keep using
Again true - but if it was so bad then why did the Emperor even allow the Thousand Sons to exist, after all, they were his creation?
the rout wrote:8) Even with all that psychic might he was still only a mediocre crusade
Compared to who and what is your source for this?
the rout wrote:9) He was more interested in knowledge than the Emperors vision
So? Fulgrim and Sanguinius were interested in the Arts. Ferrus and Vulkan in craftmanship. Lorgar a religious zealot that only got bought to heel after Guillimans moaning. Other Primarch regonised that if you destroy everything then there isn't going to be anything left.
the rout wrote:10) He not only used psyker powers but sorcery too
I agree with most of pilau's comments. Magnus certainly did a few grave errors, but he did not deserve death and could still have been very useful for the IoM.
According to me, his biggest wrongdoings were his deal with chaos to stop the curse of flesh and his continuous use of sorcery, which led to the destruction of the emperor's greatest project for humanity. The other points raised by the rout are quite minor for the situation at hand.
For instance, he certainly wasn't obsolete after the destruction of the golden throne. He was still the greatest psykers in the galaxy after the emperor one of the only primarchs that was powerful enough to stop Horus.
Your missing my by point, when i say obselete i mean no longer functioning as designed to, he may have been retasked sure but he could no longer do what he was made for.
And why is everyone so certain Horus intercepted the message? it never says this anywhere but it does say the Emperor is mighty pissed at Magnus and then he sends his executioners after him with a load of blanks which is a clear show of intention.
The big E wanted Magnus dead for his crimes and his short fallings, and im getting the crusade stuff just from general fluff. As far as i'm aware the top 3 were Horus, The Lion, Then Russ in compliances and Magnus was never given any great credit for his skills in war, if anything when it came to war he was almost as nerdy as Lorgar. His psyker gifts helped obviously but he was no great tactician.
Dont get me wrong i liked the Magnus character but i think everyone is letting that cloud their judgement, he did wrong, he ruined important stuff, he needed to be punished.
Killed might be a bit harsh its true but the Emperor sent the wolves, if he only wanted them apprehended seems a bit odd to send astartes killers as opposed to some of the more level headed legions.
Ive only browsed C:V so it may be in thier, ive read all the others though and it isnt referenced but if you could find it and let me know that'd be cool, I hate not knowing HH fluff lol
the rout wrote:Ive only browsed C:V so it may be in thier, ive read all the others though and it isnt referenced but if you could find it and let me know that'd be cool, I hate not knowing HH fluff lol
False Gods p405 'But what of Magnus' asked Maloghurst urgently, 'What happens when Russ returns him to Terra?'
Horus smiled. 'Calm yourself, Mal. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus's treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was... suitably angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort'
So the Emperor had only instructed Russ to take him back to Terra.
Either Russ has chosen not to reveal the contact between him and Horus, as it isn't mentioned in Prospero Burns or Mr Abnett has forgot to speak to Mr McNeill.
Russ then chose to ignore the warning from Hawser. Like I said he wanted to take Magnus out and Horus gave him the excuse
the rout wrote:Ive only browsed C:V so it may be in thier, ive read all the others though and it isnt referenced but if you could find it and let me know that'd be cool, I hate not knowing HH fluff lol
False Gods p405
'But What of Magnus' asked Maloghurst urgently, 'What happens when Russ returns him to Terra?'
Horus smiled. 'Calm yourself, Mal. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus's treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was... suitably angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort'
You forgot the evil Muahahahahaaaa at the end of Horus' speech.
Or they are both versions of the events as they really occured. Conversations could be misremembered. Force dispositions are pretty solid.
I still contend that he sent Russ along with the presence of Valdor, the Custodes and the Sisters is pretty good evidence that the Big E intended full sanction.
Well this is slightly contradictory because in PB Russ doesnt seem like he even wants to kill Magnus, might be a cunning front i guess.... I really love Russ hes such a suave sneaky customer as well as being a violent killy machine, hes like a mix of angron and the lion which is quite a potent mix.
pretre wrote:Or they are both versions of the events as they really occured. Conversations could be misremembered. Force dispositions are pretty solid.
I still contend that he sent Russ along with the presence of Valdor, the Custodes and the Sisters is pretty good evidence that the Big E intended full sanction.
Others seem to disagree.
He may have sent them in case a full sanction was needed... like an ultimatum of sorts.
pretre wrote:Or they are both versions of the events as they really occured. Conversations could be misremembered. Force dispositions are pretty solid.
I still contend that he sent Russ along with the presence of Valdor, the Custodes and the Sisters is pretty good evidence that the Big E intended full sanction.
Others seem to disagree.
He may have sent them in case a full sanction was needed... like an ultimatum of sorts.
That would mean The Emperor left the decision of sanction up to Russ/Valdor.
pretre wrote:Or they are both versions of the events as they really occured. Conversations could be misremembered. Force dispositions are pretty solid.
I still contend that he sent Russ along with the presence of Valdor, the Custodes and the Sisters is pretty good evidence that the Big E intended full sanction.
Others seem to disagree.
He may have sent them in case a full sanction was needed... like an ultimatum of sorts.
That would mean The Emperor left the decision of sanction up to Russ/Valdor.
Russ may have had a grudge against Magnus but even he would have realised the gravity of the descision to attack the Sons...
He wouldn't have done it if Horus hadn't messed about with him.
It continues along the lines of Abnetts space wolves showing them as not just mindless killers but even the thousand sons characters discuss them as being the Emperors executioners with Magnus himself describing them as the epitome of Astartes. There are also suggestions that the 1k sons know what happened to Russ
), probably just because they are kinda viking like. But now that I'm currently halfway through the novel "The Thousand Sons" from the Horus Heresy series, I've started finding the Space Wolves really bloody annoying. Almost to the point where I hope they'll all be butchered in the most gruesome way possible, against all reason, of course, since I know they won't be. Before reading this novel, I was thinking about making either a Space Wolves army or a pre-heresy World Eater army, but just a couple of chapters into "The Thousand Sons" I completely discarded the Space Wolves as an option.
Thats the spirit! keep up that attitude and the Space Wolves will have sold their souls to Khorne by the end of the next Millennium! There wasn't ever much difference between the Space Wolves and the World Eaters after all. Don't worry, in the eyes of Khorne the Wolfen is a blessing. Besides Space Puppies love killing don't they, its only natural...
Suffer not the punctuation to live 
since they had most of them in the last codex and no one cared.
