Fire Falcon 1850pt Tournament force

HQ

Vulkan Hestan 190pts

Elites

Terminator Assault Squad- 5xThunder hammer+Storm Shield 200pts
-Land Raider Redeemer- Mult-melta,Extra Armour 265pts

Dreadnaught-2x Twin-linked Autocannons 125pts

Troops

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Multimelta 175pts
-Rhino 35pts

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Multimelta 175pts
-Rhino 35pts

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Missile Launcher 175pts
-Rhino- 35pts

Fast Attack

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Heavy Support

Vindicator- 115pts

Vindicator- 115pts

OR

HQ

Vulkan Hestan 190pts

Elites

Terminator Assault Squad- 5xThunder hammer+Storm Shield 200pts
-Land Raider Redeemer- Mult-melta,Extra Armour 265pts

Dreadnaught-2x Twin-linked Autocannons 125pts

Troops

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Multimelta 175pts
-Rhino 35pts

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Multimelta 175pts
-Rhino 35pts

Scout Squad (5)- Power fist, shotgun on sarge, melta bombs, combimelta, camo cloaks and bolt pistol+ blades on the rest of the scouts
Fast Attack

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Landspeeder Storm- Heavy flamer OR multimelta (which 1?)

Heavy Support

Vindicator- 115pts

Vindicator- 115pts

Whirlwind- 85pts

Any help greatly appreciated

Thanks
Brother Dvorn

First list. The scout squad is useless in the second list, not to mention why would you give a powerfist to a scout seargent? I think it's risky to put 25 points on a weaker model like that.

The scouts were there to take the back field, and eliminate enemy support choices, such as heavy weapons, and claim objectives.
I am also worried that the first list does not have very much long range firepower though.

True, but getting in the enemy's face can also be a viable tactic.

I guess you could take the second one, but I would still disagree with having a powerfist on the seargent. The whirlwind would provide longer range fire support but it would be the only unit, with the scouts, behind your lines.

Ok, played a couple of games, today, and won 2/3, with the 3rd not finished, but was leaning heavily in the necron players favour.. But do you guys think I have one too many speeders, and are the vindicators worth it, or could be exchanged for something better. I found the problem with vindicators, is they can get flanked way too easily, exposing their vunerable side armour, although they are excellent distractions, but immoblised results and gun down really let them down. Would something else have a better place in this list, and maybe could help me with some longranged firepower?

Are power fists on the sergeants worth it? A mate recommended another land raider, but I'm not sure it will help.

I also seem to be lacking in the anti monolith department, and this will only get worse if I lose the vindicators, and loganwing and the like could be potentially deadly.

Would this list work any better? I think I will miss the vindicators, as they draw the fire away from my landraider, and work as effective shields for the rhinos. When the pie plate hits, it is a bonus! The sternguard could also help out at removing squads, and if I lose the raider and termies I always have a backup option.

HQ

Vulkan Hestan 190pts

Elites

Terminator Assault Squad- 5xThunder hammer+Storm Shield 200pts
-Land Raider Redeemer- Mult-melta,Extra Armour 265pts

Dreadnaught-2x Twin-linked Autocannons 125pts

Sternguard Sqaud(8) -Power fist, 4xcombi-meltas, 2x Heavyflamers 265pts
-Rhino 35pts

Troops

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Multimelta 175pts
-Rhino 35pts

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Multimelta 175pts
-Rhino 35pts

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Missile Launcher 175pts
-Rhino- 35pts

Fast Attack

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Heavy Support

Thanks
Brother Dvorn

The first list. It's not bad but definitely needs tuning.

Change the Redeemer to a Crusader.

If you're worried about long range fire power, and you should be, try switching those other two Mutli-Meltas on your Tactical Squads to Missile Launchers and switching your Rhinos for Las/Plas Razorbacks. That more than doubles your long range shooting right there.

The Sternguard are just strange. Drop the powerfist because you don't need it, take combi-flamers instead of heavy flamer so you don't lose special ammunition, find a way to raise them to 10 so you have the option of combat squadding if need be.

Why to a crusader?

I ok been thinking about what you said and have modified the list drastically and came up with this. Is it any good?

HQ

Librarian- Terminator armour, storm shield, might of the ancients, null zone 140pts

Elites

Terminator Assault Squad- 5xThunder hammer+Storm Shield 200pts
-Land Raider Crusader- Multi-melta, Extra Armour 275pts

Dreadnaught-2x Twin-linked Autocannons 125pts

Troops

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Multimelta 175pts
-Rhino 35pts

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Lascannon 175pts
-Razorback- Lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun 75pts

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Lascannon 175pts
-Razorback- Lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun 75pts

Fast Attack

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Heavy Support

Vindicator 115pts

Vindicator 115pts

No comments?
I was also wondering about the viability of a standard landraider instead of the crusader

Having played Unbeliever a fair bit, I'd say the difference between the Crusader and Standard isn't too big. On the one hand 2 S9 shots that could, COULD, hurt a transport, or a crap-ton of shots on unit that is about to be assaulted.

He's right about your Tacticals, MMs are only good when you're in Drop Pods, otherwise you'll get like one shot 12" in the entire game. Lascannons aren't the best either as you're paying for +1 S over something you can get for free.

Drop the Vindicators and take Vulkan and more Speeders, preference to Vulkan. You can't get the Melta/Flamer benefit in tournaments without him.

Might Of The Ancients isn't the best power, especially if you put the Librarian with the Terminators, THs auto-stun and are multiple attacks. Nullzone is a good one though.

They only stun guys that take an unsaved wound, and do not die, eg eternal warroir etc. Seem to get a reasonable amount of shots with the multimeltas, and the ap1 can be handy against 2+ armies, same with the lascannon too.

Would vortex of doom be better than might on the libby?

I am getting some sponson TLLC for the landraider, but with all those hurrican bolter shots, I find the opponent removes the closest models, denying me the charge, then destroying the terminator squad.

The vindicators seem quite good as a distraction, and help shield the razorbacks, who can shoot over the top. This is especially useful against 1 player who fields 3 rifleman dreadnaughts.

Vortex is good on paper, in practice it relies on blobs, no nearby troops and good scatter rolls...

Gate is ok, if you have a few Teleport homers on squads you can use it to bounce the termies around.

115 points is costly for Distraction, 230 is worse, if he has 3 Riflemans, then get 3 speeders with the TL-MM.

Crusader's don't have to fire at the same unit the Termies assault. Also remember that you're assaulting 9" from the hull not 6".

For bouncing wouldn't you need locator beacons, as teleport homers only work for teleporting. Bouncing termies seem a bad idea, since they cannont assault afterwards.

I was thinking of using vortex as another way to get str10 to damage heavy vehicles, and a last ditch tactic at popping a vehicle to assault the contents.

The speeders also wouldn't be able to damage the riflemen first turn, which is when the rhinos will get shot at. Multimeltas are not good against everything, and can be easily destroyed by those riflemen. With only 1 weapon they become useless real fast.

Vortex is too short ranged, I played one guy who used it as his Ace in the Hole and it generally nuked most of his own. Templates at S10 really don't do much to vehicles as 3.5" of scatter can make them S5...

EDIT: Yeah forgot that, part apart about Homer Vs. Beacon.

If the Riflemans are hurting you then consider Drop Pods on a tactical squad with Meltas or an Ironclad with Meltagun and Heavy Flamer. I find the last to be really effective at stopping Riflemans.

That could be an idea, but what would I have to lose, as it would effectively end the purpose of the landspeeders. Would the deathwind upgrade be work it?
Against some armies the ironclad would be suboptimal, like necrons, for example, or jump pack marine only lists, or tyranids.

Deathwind is terrible, if it was 18", then yes I would take it, its too short ranged.

First of all, Ironclads are good against Necrons, they instant kill Lords, they have a good chance of breaking the Monolith and AV13 really reduces the chances of them ever getting a Pen off.

Jumppack only lists aren't too common and considering that they'll be BA, its not too hard hard, just place it in a location where its likely to be attacked. The problem with DoA lists is they work like Drop Pod lists, but with an emphasis on assaulting instead of close up melta.

Tyranids... Sort of, MCs will always maim walkers, its a given, but you can put wounds on them, and if his Gaunt mobs are undersized you can go from tarpitting them in combat to wiping them out. Also the medium sized bugs are easily taken out by the Ironclad, provided you can get there.

Probably the best thing about them is that when it assaults units, if they don't have Powerfists, Haywire Grenades or Meltabombs you'll win the combat and force leadership/No Retreat wounds.

S would the ironclad ne or effective than rhe 2 speeders? I would have to downgrade the lascannons to missiles, and and crusader back to a redeemer.

For a Vulkan list a regular landraider can work! As you have observed, vulkan lists are very short ranged. In my list the only long range shots I have are 2 Rockets, but I still manage to do well even in this environment of 15 ML spam (I'm looking at you SW's!). Out of all the marine armies, Vulkan is the king of mid to short range and you should focus on that.


Personally I still run the Redeemer as it scares the crap out of many players. I disagree with unbeliever on taking the Crusader. Many people say take the crusader so you can move 6 and fire everything. But in my experience the hurricane bolters are not worth the extra 10 points. A S6 AP3 template is MUCH scarier than bolter shots if you can get into range. Another argument I have heard for the crusader is you can sit midfield and not drive it into melta range. But if you are carrying terminators, you are going to be driving into melta range. If you were running terminators I would take the crusader, but with 5 terminators and Vulkan, the Redeemer is the better choice in my opinion.

If you have any questions on tactics regarding Vulkan feel free to PM me. I have some pretty good experience with Vulkan. Here is the list that I currently run with Vulkan in a nutshell:

Vulkan

2 Tac squads w/ PF, Meltagun, RL, in rhinos.
1 Tac squad w/ PF, flamer, MM, in rhino.

5 x Hammernators in LRR w/ MM

Speeder w/ MM and HF
Speeder w/ MM and HF

Vindicator
Vindicator
Thunderfire Cannon

I just like the TFC model so thats why I run it. I know I could drop it and a couple of upgrades (some of which are not listed like Dozer blades) and get a dread with 2xAC's, a AC/LC predator, or even a third vindi but even in tournament play this list does well.

Well at this stage I think I will settle on this list below, as it has more long range firepower of the first, but flexible in the deployment of tactical squads.

HQ

Vulkan Hestan 190pts

Elites

Terminator Assault Squad- 5xThunder hammer+Storm Shield 200pts
-Land Raider - Mult-melta, Extra Armour 275pts

Dreadnaught-2x Twin-linked Autocannons 125pts

Troops

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Multimelta 175pts
-Rhino 35pts

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Multimelta 175pts
-Rhino 35pts

Tactical Squad-Flamer, Missile Launcher 170pts
-Rhino- 35pts

Fast Attack

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Heavy Support

Vindicator- 115pts

Vindicator- 115pts

EDIT: just reakised this is 5pts over, is losing another meltagun to a flamer work getting the lascannons on the land raider? I guess I wouls swap the weapon load outs around, so that the two multimelt squads have them, thus spread ouy my antitank fire. Especially if I combat squad the missile squad, I lose out on less bolter shots when firing at a tank.

My concern in the list is a single Land Raider which is going to attract a lot of attention. A opponent can pack a lot of melta into a army same size of yours and some of it can be suicide which will stop your Land Raider and those Terminators from reaching enemy lines, or buy them more time at least.

Tacticals are ok but problem is multi meltas just won't get into range. I know you're trying to take advantage of Vulkan but missiles would be the best.

Rest is all ok.

unbeliever87 wrote:Change the Redeemer to a Crusader.

If you're worried about long range fire power, and you should be, try switching those other two Mutli-Meltas on your Tactical Squads to Missile Launchers and switching your Rhinos for Las/Plas Razorbacks. That more than doubles your long range shooting right there

-1 to this.

Vulcan armies are short-mid range armies with excel at dealing death at 24". A MM at 24" is a much better weapon than a ML at 24". In most games you can get within 24" of a vehicle pretty quickly.

Your Redeemer is a fine delivery system for your termies. Crusaders don't buy you anything -- your army is not hurting for bolter shots. The STR 6 AP3 flamer on the other hand is great for dealing with MEQ. Most of the time you will get 1 flame template over your target and the TL AC, which is enough to cause big problems to most units of MEQ. Rerolling wounds on that AP3 flamer will toast 5 or so MEQ in 1 shot, a very nice tool. I often use this to get marines hiding in cover on an objective.

Take your speeders out of a squadren. That allows them to fire at separate targets, and the squadren rules are not friendly to AV10 vehicles. Those speeders are suicide speeders designed to take down armor then die horribly.

In list 1 you might want to consider dropping a TAC squad for 5 scouts to objective camp. Just give them sniper rifles, and have them just go to ground when their shot at. Their only role is to claim an objective. That would free up some points for more tools, such as a AC/LC pread.

Hey Labmouse, Vulkan does not TL the flamestorm cannons. Regardless, wounding MEQ's on 2+ with no armor or cover is very good!

pdawg517 wrote:Hey Labmouse, Vulkan does not TL the flamestorm cannons.

Can you point out where it says that? Flamestorm cannons use a flame template, just like flamers and heavy flamers, the flamestorm cannon is a flamer, albeit a big nasty one....

Ashton

vulkan Tls specific list of weapons
flamestorm cannon is not one of them

and by your logic vulkan TLs avenger as it uses template

pdawg517 wrote:Hey Labmouse, Vulkan does not TL the flamestorm cannons. Regardless, wounding MEQ's on 2+ with no armor or cover is very good!

Doh!
Thanks for catching that.

Devastator wrote:vulkan Tls specific list of weapons
flamestorm cannon is not one of them

and by your logic vulkan TLs avenger as it uses template

not sure what "avenger" is, but the local meta in my area, and many others I have talked to all agree that the flamestorm is twinlinked as well. poorly written rule is really what it boils down too....

Ashton

The speeders are not in squadrons, but I usually run them close together to get cover saves on a couple. I have found multimeltas superior to missiles in most cases, as I close the range quickly, and the AP1 really helps, well, against anything.

So would a landraider redeemer, or just the normal 1 be better in this list?

The losing of a tac squad I have been musing about, its just that, in our club, the missions are usually unique, and sometimes require lots of troops to be effective, then agian, as long as I hold 1 objective, and deny the others to the opponent it would be a good idea.

As a matter of fact, I have 2 combi-predators lying around But my only problem I have seen with these is fire lanes have to be kept open.

Oh and in our area, we use the INAT FAQ, and it says it does not give the rerolls

Avenger is the librarians flame power by the way.

There are so many vulkan net lists around I think you can find exactly what you want by searching the forums.

Similarly landraider variants and libbi powers have been mulled to death. All this info is readily available on dakka and on other sites.

Not trying to troll, just trying to inform.

I gave it a quick search, and I only found 2 at 1850pts
I'm looking for what land raider varient would be suited to this specific list. The libby I have decided to drop.

One less rhino would be also easier to hide behind mu vindicator wall except I have found out that I do not like destroyers, you would have thought vindicators would be built with stronger side armour, considering their origins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually would the thunderfire cannon be a good idea instead the the predator, it has synergy with the scouts too.

Many people don't like the TFC because it can be destroyed relatively easy and does not take down vehicles well. I love it because once I crack open a transport that thing can really lay a hurting on a squad.

Thats what I was thinking, and I have a lovely plastic built model

Brother Dvorn wrote:So would a landraider redeemer, or just the normal 1 be better in this list?.

Let me put it this way.
A redeemer comes with a TL AC and a MM (which will be TL for you)

Both of those weapons are better against all armor types than a TL LC. Use the simhammer in my sig to test that yourself. Even at 24" a MM is a great weapon due to AP1.
The advantage the mars pattern has is range, but your going to be giving that up by transporting termies.

As an added bonus, its cheaper too.

I will be using a multimelta on it anyway, so it isonly really the difference between lascannon and flamestorms, and heavy bolter vs assault cannon

I don't think you are taking enough squads that take advantage of vulkan's special rule.

Don't worry as much about long range support, get in close and put some blood on the walls.

What would you suggest then?

Brother Dvorn wrote:What would you suggest then?

Something along these lines:

190 Vulkan
100 Libby w/PA/null zone/avenger

410 2x10 man Tac squads w/mm/flamer/rhino

400 2x5 man Assault termies w/th-ss

350 5 Land Speeders w/mm/hf

520 2 LRC w/mm

1970 total.

With the remaining 30 points you could buy EA for the LRC's. Or you could drop a speeder for a scout squad with camo cloaks. Or trade a mm/hf speeder for a tml speeder. Almost everything has something to take advantage of vulkans special rule.

One slight problem, its a 1850pt list and 5 landpeeders are rather expensive, both in points, and in money. you can only target a max of 3 squads with them anyway.

I'm definately leaning towards the lascannons on the landraider, since we have a dark eldar player, who loves to field 3 ravagers and lots of raiders. I think long range firepower is still necessary in a vulkan list, as many enemies have fast transports: eg. eldar and can out manouver you and stay away from your shrt ranged weapons. Night shields are even worse.

Brother Dvorn wrote:One slight problem, its a 1850pt list and 5 landpeeders are rather expensive, both in points, and in money. you can only target a max of 3 squads with them anyway.

I'm definately leaning towards the lascannons on the landraider, since we have a dark eldar player, who loves to field 3 ravagers and lots of raiders. I think long range firepower is still necessary in a vulkan list, as many enemies have fast transports: eg. eldar and can out manouver you and stay away from your shrt ranged weapons. Night shields are even worse.

Sorry. I forgot the point total. Just drop 2 speeders and that would make it 1830pts.

I think you should take a regular space marine list.

That is rather vague, but if you want I can list all the items I have, and we can build a list up from there. The only problem with 2x land raider and terminators, is I have to go out and get 1 more of each

Brother Dvorn wrote:That is rather vague, but if you want I can list all the items I have, and we can build a list up from there. The only problem with 2x land raider and terminators, is I have to go out and get 1 more of each

Sorry about being vague. I was posting at a late time for me.

It seems from your need to have long range fire support that a vulkan list doesn't suit your play style.

I would recommend going with a shooty marine list that would include rifleman dreads, ac/las preds and typhoon speeders.

Vulkan is really only worth his points and giving up tactics if you take total advantage of his special rule.

A list really needs to be built around vulkan.

I have so far

Vulkan
Libby in Terminator armour and storm shield
Libby in power armour
Chaplin
Master of the forge on bike with beamer
7 TH + SS termies 2 TLC termies
10 Shooty terminators - 2x chainfist, heavy flamer, and assualt cannon
Land Raider (any varient)
2 x Vindicators
2x Combi preds
5 Rhinos - 2x Las plas turrets so make into razorbacks
30 Tactical marines, and extra sergeants with power fists, and optional combiflamers (3 Multimeltas)
5 man squad of scout snipers
Rifleman/DCCW, with plasma/assault cannon
3x MM HF landspeeders
Dread with DCCW and multimelta + heavy flamer
Drop pod

Could you make a more effective vulkan, or shooty list out of this stuff then?

i'm not sure about the autocannons on the dread. the dread has two viable options for salamanders. the multimelta it comes with, and upgrade with a hvy flamer. make the most out of twin linked.

I use it to pop transports before they reach my lines, then line up a vindicator demolisher shell...

Brother Dvorn wrote:I have so far

Vulkan
Libby in Terminator armour and storm shield
Libby in power armour
Chaplin
Master of the forge on bike with beamer
7 TH + SS termies 2 TLC termies
10 Shooty terminators - 2x chainfist, heavy flamer, and assualt cannon
Land Raider (any varient)
2 x Vindicators
2x Combi preds
5 Rhinos - 2x Las plas turrets so make into razorbacks
30 Tactical marines, and extra sergeants with power fists, and optional combiflamers (3 Multimeltas)
5 man squad of scout snipers
Rifleman/DCCW, with plasma/assault cannon
3x MM HF landspeeders
Dread with DCCW and multimelta + heavy flamer
Drop pod

Could you make a more effective vulkan, or shooty list out of this stuff then?

Well I shall certainly try to make you an 1850pt vulkan list based on this:

190 vulkan
100 libby w/power armor/null zone/avenger

645 3 units of 10 man tac squads w/flamer/mm/sarge w-combi-flamer and bolt pistol in a rhino

555 7 assault termies w/th-ss in LRC w/mm/ea

150 Dread w/mm/hvy flamer in drop pod

70 Land speeder w/mm/hvy flamer
70 Land speeder w/mm/hvy flamer
70 Land speeder w/mm/hvy flamer

Total 1850pts.

In general:

Put vulkan and the libby in with the assault terminators. Use one tac squad for static scoring and charge into the middle with the other 2 tac squads for area denial. Dread drops in for close in goodness. Speeders do what speeder do.

I just don't see that list going too well, as most of that stuff could easily be knocked out from afar.

Would only having 2 scoring units be a good idea?

Brother Dvorn wrote:I just don't see that list going too well, as most of that stuff could easily be knocked out from afar.

Would only having 2 scoring units be a good idea?

Well considering there are 3 scoring units, I wouldn't worry if 2 scoring units are a good idea or not.

It definitely sounds like you don't know how to play a vulkan list or it doesn't fit your play style or a combination of both.

I don't see you having a solid shooty marine list as you don't have rifleman dreads, typhoon speeders or ac/las preds. Especially since it appears that your tac squads only have mm's for heavy weapons.

Thats the only weapon I like giving them, and it has saved me many a time. I have other weapons.

I have 2 ac/lc predators, as I said earlier, I thought everyone called them combi preds these days. I have 1 rifle man dread, and can easily make a second, did you miss that in my listings?

I fyou go all out on something, you are bound to get a weakness, and thats why I want at least a little amount of long range transport killing firepower, as it denies the enemy the manouverability, and I can capitalise on this.

I use vulkan, since he is worth his points even without the twin linking, and makes most of my units that much better, especially with the amount of 1s I roll. The landspeeders would be easily enough to convert some typhoon missile launchers for them.

Brother Dvorn wrote:Thats the only weapon I like giving them, and it has saved me many a time. I have other weapons.

I have 2 ac/lc predators, as I said earlier, I thought everyone called them combi preds these days. I have 1 rifle man dread, and can easily make a second, did you miss that in my listings?

I fyou go all out on something, you are bound to get a weakness, and thats why I want at least a little amount of long range transport killing firepower, as it denies the enemy the manouverability, and I can capitalise on this.

I use vulkan, since he is worth his points even without the twin linking, and makes most of my units that much better, especially with the amount of 1s I roll. The landspeeders would be easily enough to convert some typhoon missile launchers for them.

Sorry, I saw rifleman dread w/ccw/plasma cannon. Are those extra options you have for it? A rifleman is usually 2 tl-autocannons. I had no idea that combi preds were ac/las preds.

What other heavy and special weapons do you have for your tac squads?

Vulkan is truly only worth his points in a salamanders army. He is a huge force multiplier. Not to take advantage of that is losing half the battle. Unfortunately, in what you think is a vulkan list, most of your units don't take advantage of his special rule. I cannot stress this enough apparently.

2 rifleman dreads, 2 ac/las preds and some typhoon ml speeders are a good start for a shooty marine list.

The two land raider list may be effective against some armies, but I am just not seeing it working against stuff like dark lance spam, where I would end up like a siting duck.

The dread has the option to be rifleman or those options listed above.
I have missile launchers, lascannons, a heavy bolter (not very effective) I have flamers and melta guns for the tactical at the moment, but I can always get more if needed.

Brother Dvorn wrote:The two land raider list may be effective against some armies, but I am just not seeing it working against stuff like dark lance spam, where I would end up like a siting duck.

The dread has the option to be rifleman or those options listed above.
I have missile launchers, lascannons, a heavy bolter (not very effective) I have flamers and melta guns for the tactical at the moment, but I can always get more if needed.

Well for a shooty marine list (with a counter assault element) you could try this:

125 cassius
100 libby in power armor w/null zone/avenger

615 3 10 man tac squads w/flamer/ml in a rhino

460 5 th/ss termies in a land raider w/mm

180 2 land speeders w/tml/hb

240 2 ac/las preds

125 rifleman dread

1845pts

Cassius and the libby goes in the land raider with the assault termies. Just stay back and shoot. Turns 4 and 5 advance some tac squads and the termies. If someone gets in your face, use your termie squad to beat some face.

Very simple and straight forward.

While that is a pretty good list, it lacks enough melta to really hurt heavy armor. If that LR goes early, then LR's will basically have a field day against that army. In a gunline army, you can scrape by with 2 tacticals, even at 1850. This would free up some points to get some fast melta in the form of suicide speeders or attack bikes. Since that list is not vulkan, i am not advocating melta everywhere, but having fast melta never hurt any list! (except your enemies!)

pdawg517 wrote:While that is a pretty good list, it lacks enough melta to really hurt heavy armor. If that LR goes early, then LR's will basically have a field day against that army. In a gunline army, you can scrape by with 2 tacticals, even at 1850. This would free up some points to get some fast melta in the form of suicide speeders or attack bikes. Since that list is not vulkan, i am not advocating melta everywhere, but having fast melta never hurt any list! (except your enemies!)

I agree and disagree with some of your points.

Looking at his list, I think that he has enough melta to cover the situations. What is melta needed for? The answer is AV13 and 14. How many AV13 and AV14 vehicles do you find in your local meta?

For AV 10-12, that list has all the required tools for the job. TL-AC, ML, LC. All of those will destroy transports, and light armor with plenty of range to spare.

I agree that you can squeeze by with 2 tacticals, especially if you combat squad them. If you want a 3rd troop type, you can also go with a squad of scouts.
Personally, I use bikes as troops (marine bike army) so I play a different kind of troop type :\

On the node of suicide speeders, in a non-vulcan army they generally are not worth the risk you pay. The chances of destroying high armor targets don't meet their costs -- unless they are TL targets. If you do want to use them, run them up the sides of the boards and use them at 24" until you have the perfect shot. A MM at 24" is a better weapon than a LC vs AV 12 due to the AP1. Lining up those shots vs the sides or rears of tanks can be very useful. The trick here is to get more than 1 shot from the speeder. Once you have managed to do that, then you can suicide them, as that changes the cost-to-kill ratio into your odds. If you play blackjack, think of it as splitting on 8s, you want to maximize your chances of a successful outcome instead of hitting on a 12 (which would be just a suicide deep strike)

All that being said, fast MM is not a bad idea at all. They would add a lot of good harassment capabilities to your army. Just don't throw them away for nothing.

Brother Dvorn wrote:Fire Falcon 1850pt Tournament force

HQ

Vulkan Hestan 190pts

Elites

Terminator Assault Squad- 5xThunder hammer+Storm Shield 200pts
-Land Raider Redeemer- Mult-melta,Extra Armour 265pts

Dreadnaught-2x Twin-linked Autocannons 125pts

Troops

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Multimelta 175pts
-Rhino 35pts

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Multimelta 175pts
-Rhino 35pts

Tactical Squad-Meltagun, Missile Launcher 175pts
-Rhino- 35pts

Fast Attack

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Landspeeder Squadron-Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70pts

Heavy Support

Vindicator- 115pts

Vindicator- 115pts

Your first list that you posted is 100% fine. The only change I would make would be missiles on all tacticals for a little bit of ranged flexibility (assuming you combat squad in objective games.)

As far as the Land Raider goes, go with the Redeemer. Its very fluffy for Salamanders, and is also extremly effective as an assault vehicle. With extra armor, it can move 12", dump assault troops, and wipe out a squad of MEQ and lower with its flamestorm cannon. No other variant can wipe out 200 points of marines in a single shot, not even close. My last game I played on Sunday, my Redeemer wiped out a 230pt squad of Khorne beserkers in a single shot on turn 3, right before he conceded. Crusaders are usefull when you need a large transport capacity (you don't), and the regular land raider is a piece of garbage (don't let people convince you otherwise). If you want lascannons, take a predator.

Like I said, your first list is fine. If you are really looking for an overhaul, then I would drop the Vindicators, get another rifle dread, and throw upgrades on your tacticals in the form of powerfists and combi meltas. This will really add some punch to your troop choices. New list would look like this:

Vulkan-190pts
5x TH/SS, Redeemer, MM, EA- 465pts
2x TL AC Dreadnought- 125pts
2x TL AC Dreadnought- 125pts
10x Marines, Missile, Melta, Combimelta, Pfist, Rhino- 245pts
10x Marines, Missile, Melta, Combimelta, Pfist, Rhino- 245pts
10x Marines, Missile, Melta, Combimelta, Pfist, Rhino- 245pts
Land speeder, MM/HF- 70pts
Land speeder, MM/HF- 70pts
Land speeder, MM/HF- 70pts

1850pts

scubasteve04 wrote:
Vulkan-190pts
5x TH/SS, Redeemer, MM, EA- 465pts
2x TL AC Dreadnought- 125pts
2x TL AC Dreadnought- 125pts
10x Marines, Missile, Melta, Combimelta, Pfist, Rhino- 245pts
10x Marines, Missile, Melta, Combimelta, Pfist, Rhino- 245pts
10x Marines, Missile, Melta, Combimelta, Pfist, Rhino- 245pts
Land speeder, MM/HF- 70pts
Land speeder, MM/HF- 70pts
Land speeder, MM/HF- 70pts

1850pts

Dead hard list there.

I like that list, although, without the distraction the vindicators present, I am wondering if the rhinos will receive more fire because of it, and be knocked out earlier in the game, along with the redeemer, and if immobilised, only be able to use half of its complement of weapons to full effect.

Also I am concerned about the lack of ap2 weapons, especially since the last tournament had at least two wolf guard lists in terminator armor present.

I am wondering out of the original, and the list above, which would perform better when facing off against each other?

@scubasteve04: I dont usually combat squad the multi melta squads for objective games, but if there is a back objective, I would combat the missile launcher squad, as it has the range to be useful while sitting there.

Thanks for all your help so faar
Brother Dvorn

Brother Dvorn wrote:I like that list, although, without the distraction the vindicators present, I am wondering if the rhinos will receive more fire because of it, and be knocked out earlier in the game, along with the redeemer, and if immobilised, only be able to use half of its complement of weapons to full effect.

Also I am concerned about the lack of ap2 weapons, especially since the last tournament had at least two wolf guard lists in terminator armor present.

I am wondering out of the original, and the list above, which would perform better when facing off against each other?

Thanks for all your help so faar
Brother Dvorn

The rhinos will not be top priority for low-mid ranged anti tank fire due to the presence of your MM/HF speeders. They can put out a lot of hurt on any enemy, and considering how easy to kill they will be top on the target priority.

For the enemies heavy weapons, versus Vindicator front armor 13 and Land Raider 14; the Land Raider is going to be top priority. The Land Raider is a 655pt death star, and your opponent is going to be furiously trying to shut it down no matter what. You just gotta get those Termies into assault as quick as possible before the Land Raider blows up. Remember that the redeemer is an assault transport first, and fire support second.

Vindicators are not a strong vehicle. They are easily shut down with side armor shots or assaults. All it takes is 1 roll on the damage chart to shut it down (shaken, stun, weapon destroy, immobile) all cripple the Vindicator. They are also short ranged, and due to the fact you are running a short ranged vulkan list, you need that extra range the Dreadnoughts can provide.

As for AP 2, your running a vulkan list. You have 10 melta weapons, 3 powerfists, 5 master crafted thunder hammers, and a master crafted relic blade. Ignoring armor should be a non-issue.

If the lists faced off, it would really be a toss-up, considering how identical the lists are. I would give my list a slight advantage. With the Rifleman Dreadnoughts, it will be easier to obtain air superiority, and I also give my troops a slight advantage with the combi-meltas and fists for assaults. The main goal for my list would be to shut down your vindicators and Land raider with my speeders and rhinos, and using long range anti-tank fire to prevent that happening to my own Land Raider.

It is really impossible to say which list is better. It all will boil down to personal play style, and opponent play style and list. I will echo scubasteve, ignoring armor really is a non issue.

However, I disagree about vindicators. I find that they usually will soak up a lot of shots that could be directed and land raiders and rhinos. They are big enough threat to anything that they really can't be ignored.

pdawg517 wrote:It is really impossible to say which list is better. It all will boil down to personal play style, and opponent play style and list. I will echo scubasteve, ignoring armor really is a non issue.

However, I disagree about vindicators. I find that they usually will soak up a lot of shots that could be directed and land raiders and rhinos. They are big enough threat to anything that they really can't be ignored.

Your right about the Vindicators. I use three in my Imperial Fists lists for the exact same reasons you state. They are not essentially a bad unit, but they have glaring weaknesses as well. With a Vulkan list, you are already pigeon holed into taking woefully short range weapons in a long range metagame; Vindicators are just further adding to the problem of short range.

The thing about the Heavy support for Vulkan list, is there is nothing really that benifits from Vulkans chapter tactics directly. If the core of your army is based on melta, flamer and TH, then you need to add some long range fire support with your heavy slots (or in this case, elites). This is why I suggested dropping the Vindis for another Rifleman Dreadnought, and spending the rest of the points on worthwhile upgrades on tactical squads.

would flamer, combi flamer tactical squads (with fists) be a better Idea than double melta? Or at least 1 of these squads.
I still like the idea of the multimeltas in the tacticals, to provide area denial, and some extra ap 1 for extra goodness. I would only equip 2 of these like this though.

Good idea or not? (I don't normally combat the tacs anyway, at least have 2 non combated units in a game)

Brother Dvorn wrote:would flamer, combi flamer tactical squads (with fists) be a better Idea than double melta? Or at least 1 of these squads.
I still like the idea of the multimeltas in the tacticals, to provide area denial, and some extra ap 1 for extra goodness. I would only equip 2 of these like this though.

Good idea or not? (I don't normally combat the tacs anyway, at least have 2 non combated units in a game)

The speeders 3x HF, redeemers 2x flamestorms, vulkans HF, 3 Frag missiles, 24 bolters, assault cannon, 4 twin linked auto cannons should all be sufficient anti horde. Stick with the meltas. Even with a true horde list (kan wall, Nids with lots of bugs ect) you can still use the meltas on something (a Kan or an MC) then use bolters on the hordes

Multimeltas aren't terrible on tactical squads, but using the free missile gives you a nice chance to add some long range anti-tank to your list (that vulkan lists seriously lack). In objective games, always combat squad the Missile in the back in some cover, and if they are on an objective, be sure to go to ground if they take heavy fire. In a kill point game, keep all tactical squads at full strength.

But if you have all the tactical at half strength, the power fist doesn't last as long in assaults, the the squad itself is that more vulnerable to everything, especially wound allocation.

Anyway, I got the multimeltas all painted up too, a bonus

But with a fist you stand a much better chance at taking out tanks and walkers that you would otherwise just stay engaged with until your squad died. YMMV though.

True, but against large combat orientated squads , your powerfist mat noy even strike back.

That is true. But even with a 10 man squad that could be true. You will find a good split of people who like and dislike fists on tactical marines.

I don't think you should take the pf's on the tac squads.

That's 75 pts you could free up.

To use on what though?

Brother Dvorn wrote:To use on what though?

Another mm/hf speeder?

But then it reduces their effectiveness, as they can still only kill a maximum of 3 units a turn, while making the chances of death, due to immobilization, higher.

Brother Dvorn wrote:But then it reduces their effectiveness, as they can still only kill a maximum of 3 units a turn, while making the chances of death, due to immobilization, higher.

Better than wasting 75pts for pf's that will make hardly any difference in an assault.

I have found they have actually been quite useful. In 1 turn I cleaned out 3 warroir squads with them, and they have knocked off deamon princes last wound etc.

Would 2 AC LC predators be better than the rifleman?

Because at the moment I like the riflemen, but the predators could hurt MC s more, and are able to damage av13 and above easier.

Or is one of each better?

ok my 1750 that ive been playing for going on 2 years now.. is this... simple.. and ive beaten everyone ive played with it.. orks(horde kan wall, nob bikers, ect), De( old and new), nids, chaos demons, chaos marines, tau, IG chimera spam, and gun line, space wolves, Blood angels, and necron armies of al shapes and sizes.

Hq1
Vulkan hestan -190 rides in the redeemer with his brother (the captain) and the terminators... if you didnt already guess

Hq2
Space marine captain, artificer armor,storm shield, relic blade, melta bombs -165

Elite 1
Terminator assault squad- all 5 with thunder hammer/storm shield, in a landraider redeamer with Extra armor and a multi melta- 465

Elite 2
Dreadnought, mm, Twin linked auto cannon - 115

Elite 3
Dreadnought mm, Twin linked auto cannon- 115

Troop 1
Tac squad 10 man, Multi melta, flamer, Sgt with bolt pistol and a fist, in a rhino with extra armor -245

Troop 2
Tac squad 10 man, Multi melta, flamer, Sgt with bolt pistol and a fist, in a rhino with extra armor- 245

Fast 1
Landspeeder with heavy flamer and multi melta -70

Fast 2
Landspeeder with heavy flamer and multi melta -70

Fast 3
Landspeeder with heavy flamer and multi melta -70

that 1750 on the dot... lots of 50/50 armor and troop killing possibilities.... and it works for me.. i have a play style different than most. but my list ive played 20+ times and i havent lost yet

Interesting armament of the dreadaughts,although you seem to lose out on the ranged firepower. So in the list below, would a pair of predators, pair of riflemen, or 1 of each, be a better idea?

HQ

Vulkan-190pts

Elites

5x TH/SS, Redeemer, MM, EA- 465pts
2x TL AC Dreadnought- 125pts
2x TL AC Dreadnought- 125pts

Troops

10x Marines, Multimelta, Meltagun, Combimelta, Power fist, Rhino- 245pts
10x Marines, Multimelta, Meltagun, Combimelta, Power fist, Rhino- 245pts
10x Marines, Missile, Flamer, Combiflamer, Power fist, Rhino- 245pts

Fast Attack

Land speeder, MM/HF- 70pts
Land speeder, MM/HF- 70pts
Land speeder, MM/HF- 70pts

If I replaced the riflemen with 2x Combi-predators, then the land raider can get lascannon sponsons, increasing the fire power

I think the LRR will do you just fine. With transporting terminators you will more than likely be moving more than 6" a turn with the LR so you will not be making use of both lascannon sponsons most of the time.

But would predators or riflemen be better?

No one?

Brother Dvorn wrote:Interesting armament of the dreadaughts,although you seem to lose out on the ranged firepower. So in the list below, would a pair of predators, pair of riflemen, or 1 of each, be a better idea?

HQ

Vulkan-190pts

Elites

5x TH/SS, Redeemer, MM, EA- 465pts
2x TL AC Dreadnought- 125pts
2x TL AC Dreadnought- 125pts

Troops

10x Marines, Multimelta, Meltagun, Combimelta, Power fist, Rhino- 245pts
10x Marines, Multimelta, Meltagun, Combimelta, Power fist, Rhino- 245pts
10x Marines, Missile, Flamer, Combiflamer, Power fist, Rhino- 245pts

Fast Attack

Land speeder, MM/HF- 70pts
Land speeder, MM/HF- 70pts
Land speeder, MM/HF- 70pts

If I replaced the riflemen with 2x Combi-predators, then the land raider can get lascannon sponsons, increasing the fire power

This list is fine. I would stick with the Autocannon Dreadnoughts.

- Vanilla predators have to remain stationary, and are killed easily by outflankers and deep strikers. Blood angels predators are much, much better.
-Dreadnoughts can move and shoot, and tie up enemy units in hand to hand if needed.
-Your anti-heavy armor is more then covered with melta, so two twin linked Autocannons would be better for dealing with light armor.

You don't need a Lascannon Land Raider either. The Redeemer is much better as an assault vehicle.

I suppose I am just worried about monsterous creatures, and mephiston. Would replacing the missile launcher, with a plasma cannon, since I have the spare points, be a good idea?

Brother Dvorn wrote:I suppose I am just worried about monsterous creatures, and mephiston. Would replacing the missile launcher, with a plasma cannon, since I have the spare points, be a good idea?

Monsterous creatures and Mepiston, meet TH/SS termies. There is little that these guys cannot handle.

If you have 5pts spare, then a Plasma cannon would not be a terrible upgrade. Personally, I would upgrade the third tac squad to a meltagun, and run all Missiles/meltagun/combimelta/fist, but either works really.

I think I will have the plasma cannon, as I already have the combi flamer flamer squad built up

How viable would giving the dreadnaughts a plasma cannon each, it would allow me to get some more anti terminator stat firepower in the list, and increases the niche of the dreadnaughts

Nah, stick with the autocannons. You need long range anti-transport

I would at least dump 2 pf's from the tac squads to upgrade the redeemer to a crusader and add a 6th assault termie.

Plasma Cannons on dreadnoughts are useful, however in this list, it comes after the MM in the priority list. TL-ACs are going to make your life easier.

Also with the Redeemer, are you taking an extra Termie? Or is Vulkan going there? I don't think the Redeemer is really needed here as you have enough of this kind of weapon and if you're shooting it on the turn the Assault Terminators disembark you better be shooting elsewhere. If you have an LRC you can hit hordes fairly well with the Hurricanes without making the Terminators less useful. The standard TL-Las version is good for shooting transports up close so that the Assault Terminators can charge the unit inside, or if against MechVets fire the MM at the target Chimera and a sponson at another Chimera to line up next turns assault target, either a naked squad or Stunned Chimera.


I agree on dumping the PFs on tacticals; If they assault a tank, good its likely to get crippled or at least stunlocked, if they assault/assault a CC squad, they will die as most CC squads tend to have either a crap load of attacks (Slugga Boyz) or lots of Power Weapons, (GK Interceptors).

In the first, the fist will never get a hit, and remember that the Nob will have enough PK attacks to kill at least 2 marines on the charge.
In the Second, we see a unit of 5, probably with Halberds, wounding first and killing most of your squad before the PF gets a swing.

In the event you assault a shooty unit, then congratulations you'll kill it anyway, the PF is just underlining that fact.

PFs are best in Sternguard, as they tend to get a round of painful shooting in first (especially if you stick Lysander in there), then you opponent thinks, should I assault them and risk PF wounds, or should I fallback out of 18". If they do assault, chances are the unit has taken a lot of wounds from the SG, especially if its MEQ and the SG used Vengeance rounds, which means they're likely to be crippled anyway, the PF is here because it will finish a squad in your opponent's turn meaning the SG can destroy a second target. The only time where this doesn't happen is when a dedicated assault unit or a horde assaults the SG, but those aren't what the SG are supposed to shoot so its a given loss.

Vulkan would be riding in the land raider, I think I may undedicate the thing to allow termies to deep strike if I fell the need.

What would be the best use of the points for the powerfists?
If I take the normal LR that's 65pts to spend on something, although the combi weapons could be dropped netting me 95pts.

Yes, no?

Brother Dvorn wrote:Yes, no?

I recommended dumping 2 pf's, upgrading the redeemer to a crusader and adding another th/ss termie.

Just had another idea, if I dropped a landspeeder as well as 2 fists, I could get a vindicator, or another unit of some sort, which could help alot as a diversion

imweasel wrote:

Brother Dvorn wrote:Yes, no?

I recommended dumping 2 pf's, upgrading the redeemer to a crusader and adding another th/ss termie.

I second this. I used to run power fists in my Tac Squads---until I realized they still lost against pretty much anything. If you combat squad due to mission----it becomes very easy to lose that PF as well.

I might take the fists out, but would removing a landspeeder, and then using the points for a terminator librarian, with null zone and another power, and it could mean I could split them off and use them a a second tag team out of the crusader.

If you went with a libby---my advise would be to keep him in PA---and keep him the LR. When you cast Null Zone from a Raider---it gives you even more coverage---and Libbys just suck in HTH---even Term variants.

However, if you really want to go with a Term Libby---buy him a SS. It's cheap, makes him a bit more durable---and gives you a decent save against Perils.

Yeah I was going to give him a storm shield, if I take him, but was considered having a thunderfire cannon/ master of the forge instead, as he can fix the landarider from the inside, and lend a couple of bs 5 plasma pistol shots, or even a combi melta.

Brother Dvorn wrote:Yeah I was going to give him a storm shield, if I take him, but was considered having a thunderfire cannon/ master of the forge instead, as he can fix the landarider from the inside, and lend a couple of bs 5 plasma pistol shots, or even a combi melta.

*Shrug*, could be fun. Normally I trash Thunderfires as the artillery rules are weak sauce----but some dude at Adepticon ran 3 of them and did ok---so who am I to say anything?

Hah, it was more for the model I made and painted more than anything, but would the libby be worth the loss of a landspeeder?

Brother Dvorn wrote:Hah, it was more for the model I made and painted more than anything, but would the libby be worth the loss of a landspeeder?

Well, a MM/HF Speeders = 70 IIRC----while a Term Libby w/ SS = 145 (?). So you should ask yourself if he's worth two speeders---in a Vulkan lists that force multiplies them. I don't think there is an answer for that---just up to you. Null Zone can just utterly wreck some armies----but in the end play with what you want. It will always work better for you if you enjoy playing it .

Well 2 fists from the tacticals would cover his costs along with the speeder.

I might just do as imweasal suggested, but the plasma cannon or autocannon on the dreads are still bugging me with indecision

There is nothing wrong with dumping all 3 power fists and a speeder (total of 145pts), especially if you could come up with another 5 pts.

If you could come up with the 5 points, that means a libby in power armor (100pts) with null zone and avenger, upgrade the redemmer to a crusader (now 110pts) and adding another th/ss termie (150pts total).

Well worth it imo.

The 5pts could come from the plasma cannon squad. It could be a good idea, and means I don't have to paint another landspeeder
I was also thinking gate of infinity could be a better power than avenger, as in gives me redundacy if the land raider dies. No termie armour would give me more attacks if neccessary too

Brother Dvorn wrote:The 5pts could come from the plasma cannon squad. It could be a good idea, and means I don't have to paint another landspeeder
I was also thinking gate of infinity could be a better power than avenger, as in gives me redundacy if the land raider dies. No termie armour would give me more attacks if neccessary too

Gate will be useful in very limited situations. Avenger will almost always be useful.

It's a no brainer to take avenger.