I see alot of people mentioning that Tiggy gives you a 24" radius on fear of the darkness.

However, I noticed that Tiggy doubles the (game term) range on psychic powers, and Fear has no mention of range anywhere, so fear should only be 12" for Tiggy also.

From page 26 of Codex Space Marines:

Every enemy unit witiin 12" of the Librarian...

Sure sounds like a range to me.

Actually, to me it sounds like the range is 0, and it's basically a template.

But if Tiggy can double the area of effect on a fear, then the range on a bolter changes to 12" when it double taps.

Ummm... no. How does that compute? Those two concepts pass like ships in the night. One does not mean the other.

The range of FotD is 12" in all directions; Tigurius doubles that. End of line.

But no where is the game term 'range' mentioned in the fear entry.

It could be equally argued that the range for FoD is 12", or that FoD has no range, but rather an area of effect with a 12" radius. The term 'range' is not clearly defined in the rules.

A strict, logical interpretation of the Shooting rules (which also pertain to psychic powers), would indicate that if you treat the multiple enemy units affected by FoD as all targets of FoD, you are then measuring a 12" range to all of them, which would suggest that 12" is the range, and Tigurius then doubles it to 24". An extension of that, however, is that you are then treating all of them as targets of the power, which means that he must have LOS to all units he is affecting. If you treat FoD as having no target at all, then you are not measuring a range to any target - you could then argue that 12" is not a range, just a radius that defines an area of effect.

There are powers that have a defined 'range' value (The shooting type powers-Smite, etc). Fear is not one of them.

Skyth, 02/18/2006 10:25 PM
Actually, to me it sounds like the range is 0, and it's basically a template

If it was a template, then they'd tell you to use the template. The range is a 12" radius around the Librarian.

Then were does it say range? Range is a game term (See Storm of the Emporer's Wrath). Fear has nothing that is listed as 'range' so Tiggy can't double it.

It's the exact same issue as with bolter's double-tapping. They will target a unit within 12", but the range is NOT 12".

And where does it say that a power's range must be expressed in a profile like a weapon? The range of Fear of the Darkness is a 12" radius from the Librarian.

Prove it then.

Could just as easily say prove it isn't...

What would you call that 12" if it isn't range?

I would say it doubles the area of effect- which is a type of range as far as i can tell

Posted By skyth on 02/19/2006 12:08 PM
Prove it then.

Yes, prove it.  Prove that a range must be expressed in a profile.  Otherwise the power has no range and affects nobody at all and is useless.

Actually, since you are the one that wants to double the 'range' with Tiggy, you are the one that is required to prove that there is a 'range' to double.

And again, we've shown you the range. It is a 12" radius from the Librarian. You've yet to prove that's not the power's range.

Posted By Bignutter on 02/19/2006 12:12 PM
I would say it doubles the area of effect- which is a type of range as far as i can tell

Does that mean that if Tiggy uses Storm of the Emporer's wrath, he uses the large template?

Actually, you are required to prove something, not disprove something, in order to use it.

You keep on saying that the 12" is a 'range' WITHOUT any proof of that.

What would you call that 12" if it isn't range?

I would say it doubles the area of effect- which is a type of range as far as i can tell

If that were the case, you could then argue that Tigurius doubles the size of the Blast Template when he uses Storm of Emperor's Wrath. We know he doesn't, because the area of effect is not the range - they are not equivalent terms.

It doesn't sound like it's a question of proving that range must be expressed in a shooting-type profile or not. It's more a question of whether you consider 12" to be the range of the power, which affects multiple targets, or whether you consider it to be the outer limit of a defined area of effect.

Posted By skyth on 02/19/2006 12:18 PM
Actually, you are required to prove something, not disprove something, in order to use it.

You keep on saying that the 12" is a 'range' WITHOUT any proof of that.

Kind of like the pot calling the kettle black.  So once again, you don't have proof that it is NOT the range.  We can go on with this 'is not, is too' argument all day  You keep on saying that 12" is not a 'range' WITHOUT any proof of that.  If it's not the bloody range of the power, then why not?

The thing is, with the 40k rules, you NEVER have to prove something isn't, only that they are.

From the How to Have an Intelligent Rules Debate post-

'...The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else. '

I actually think Skyth is on to something.  If Tiggy doubles the range of a psychic power, that shouldn't mean he doubles any distance mentioned in any psychic power.  I'm having trouble thinking of other powers that mention a distance and don't refer to it as a range, but here is what I thought of that is a bit of a stretch:

A minor psychic power (can't remember the name of it) allows you to hold a unit back and deploy it after all other units, including infiltrators.  So the deployment zone could be 18" out, and Tiggy doubles the range of the power.  Therefore if you use this psychic power with Tiggy you can deploy your unit 36" away from your board edge right?  I think range needs to be clearly defined in the psychic power if you want to claim that you can double it.  In FotD it isn't clearly defined, so you should err on the side of caution.

- Oaka

The thing is, with the 40k rules, you NEVER have to prove something isn't, only that they are

And again, you have never proven that they ARE anything other than the range.

So, uhh... lemme get this straight, just so we're clear. The 12"... uhh... range of FoD isn't actually a range because FoD doesn't have a range. In stead, and, again, this is just so we're clear, it has a psudeo-template without having a template or mentioning a template in the rules.

Yeah, I'd say this thread is yet another good example of why Skyth's post count is so high.

BYE

12" might be the range of FoD. Or the range might be zero, and 12" nothing more than defining the outer area of effect. That's what it comes down to - does the power have a range, or just an area of effect?

Without a useful definition of the term 'range', this discussion will not advance beyond 'is not-is too'. However, since everyone is so certain of their rightness in this thread, I'm sure people will have no trouble giving a definition of the term 'range' that supports their view.

Let's start with rapid fire targeting within 12" without a 12" Range.

Besides, the onus isn't on me to prove that it isn't range, rather on YOU to prove that it is range.

And HMBC, since you have to resort to ad hominum attacks, I'll take that as you conceeding the argument in my favor.

Besides, the onus isn't on me to prove that it isn't range, rather on YOU to prove that it is range.

Yes it is about you proving that it is not the range of the psychic power. So far you have provided squat to back up your position other than 'I say so'

You want proof that it is the power's range? Fine. The 'range' of a psychic power is the distance at which it is effective. Storm of the Emperor's Wrath is effective against one unit within 12". That is it's 'range'. Fear of the Darkness is effective against any enemy units within 12" of the Librarian. That is it's 'range'. Now either provide something to actually back up your postion other than your lame 'It's not and I don't have to prove it' so-called argument.

To answer for HBMC:

?I was not making fun of you personally; I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea -- a practice I shall always follow.? - Lt. Colonel Dubois, Starship Troopers

Range is a game term.

The game term range is not mentioned ANYWHERE in the fear entry.

Your so-called proof is inadequate.

As I am not attempting ANY action, I need to prove nothing. The onus of proof is on the person attempting an action.

This is the EXACT same situation as a marine moving and firing his bolter at something within 12". The weapon can only affect a unit within 12", but the RANGE of the bolter remains 24" and can cause casaulties within 24". Unless something says that it is a RANGE (game term) then it isn't.

It does seem to me that you can't claim that the 12" is a range.

While 'the distance at which it's effective' is a good definition, we don't know that it's the right one. It might well be 'the distance such that if the distance between the firer and the target exceeds it, the weapon/power cannot be used'. You simply don't shoot your guns if you're out of range - you don't even roll to-hit for plasma weapons. However, you're perfectly capable of casting Fear if nothing's around. This at least hints at the Librarian being the target.

Furthermore, when you talk about 'the distance at which it's effective', the question has to be asked: what is the effect? Couldn't we argue that the 'effect' is that everything within 12" of the Librarian gets scared? That is, 'things within 12" getting scared' is just a side effect. It's effective at all ranges, as there doesn't seem to be a target other than the Librarian.

You really do need to prove that the 12" is a range. You're essentially saying that you can take a given number in a weapon/power description, with no demonstrable proof that it's a range (so far anyway), and claim that it's the range.

The game term range is not mentioned ANYWHERE in the fear entry.

And again, so bloody what. Where is it ever mandated that that a psychic power's range must be given in a profile in big bold letters? It's still 'because I said so' with you. Provide any rules that states that if they don't use the word 'range' then it does not have one.

Again, the rules don't say what isn't...Only what is. How hard is this to understand?

It must be proved that if it doesn't say range that it has one.

I suggest you review the 'How to Have an Intelligent Rules Debate' post again, especially on the "the rules don't say I can't" argument, which is what you are consistently making.

"And HMBC, since you have to resort to ad hominum attacks, I'll take that as you conceeding the argument in my favor."

In order to conceed I'd have to, y'know, actually conceed. All I'm doing is making fun of yet another one of your 'interesting' rules interpretations. Oh, and BTW, it's HBMC, not the other way around. But I 'spose you knew that already...

Furthermore, you kind've have to prove that the 12" range that FoD has isn't a 'range', using the rules, in order to win this argument. Good luck with that.

BYE

If it acts like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

It isn't neccessarily a duck. Just like the 'range' on double-tapping rapid fire weapons.

If it acts like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

Then it's Skyth?

Skyth - Just curious, but, were you absolutley demolished by a FotD Tiggy assault at some point in the past?

If not, where are you going with this?

This is the EXACT same situation as a marine moving and firing his bolter at something within 12". The weapon can only affect a unit within 12", but the RANGE of the bolter remains 24" and can cause casaulties within 24". Unless something says that it is a RANGE (game term) then it isn't.

This is not a definition of range, per se - it is an example that supports your case, but not one that argues from the game rules. This particular example is also one that is a grey area in the rules - while it might be the right interpretation, there's plenty of argument that it's not.

Going back to the basics of Psychic Powers, then:

Psychic powers follow the Shooting Rules unless otherwise specified. Range is a term that has a specific application in the shooting rules. To be specific, range is defined in Step 2 of the Shooting Rules:

Step 1. Select a target.

Step 2. Measure LOS and range to that target.

Range is thusly defined - it is a property of the weapon/power/thing that has an application in the shooting rules, pertaining to the target of the weapon/power/thing. So, then, what is the target(s) of FotD? Is it every enemy unit within 12"? Or is it the Librarian himself, and the power then has an area of effect of 12" around him? If the target(s) is/are every enemy unit within 12", then it can be shown that the power has a range, which is 12", and which Tigurius would then double. If the target is the Librarian, then it can be shown that the power has no range, just an area of effect. So which is it?

The fact that FotD can be cast even with no enemy units to affect might suggest that the target is the Librarian. Then again, that's not necessarily a true statement, just a good basis for argument.

It isn't neccessarily a duck.

And sometimes it is a duck. So far you've yet to provide an iota of proof to back your position other than 'I say so'. That's not going to cut it. And you're argument that I have to 'prove' something while you don't have to 'disprove' something is ludicrous. So far you've either been unwilling, or more likely unable to support your position. So either put up or shut up. Prove that when the rules for Fear Of The Darkness states that every enemy unit "within 12" of the Librarian" must take a Morale check that the 12" is not the range of the power.

"It isn't neccessarily a duck. Just like the 'range' on double-tapping rapid fire weapons."

I think we might have to amend the 'How to have an Intelligent Rules Discussion' to include this, assuming it isn't already there, to say:

When you bring forth an idea it is up to you to prove that idea. It is not sufficient to simply state something and then demant that everyone prove you wrong.

So skyth, are you going to prove what you say, or are you going to subject us to more this "because I say so" crap?

BYE

Hello, the rules are PERMISSIVE...Since I'm not trying to take any action, I don't need ANY proof WHATSOEVER! But like usual, you keep on repeating the same 'The rules doesn't say it isn't' argument and ignoring that.

As Relic has pointed out, the 12" could be a couple things besides range, but you guys seem to just like arguing with me for argument's sake like little children and totally ignoring the actual issue. And this isn't the first time you've done this. Just grow up, will you?

With slight trepidation that I'm simply throwing petrol onto the fire; I think the only rule that's going to clear this one up is The Most Important Rule ? and agree that this is one of those cases where the rules simply don't explain the particular issue completely enough.

Certainly both thesis and antithesis have: 
a) A good basis for argument
and
b) No concrete rules statement to clear up the argument

...to back them up. I'd recommend that one works it out on a game-by-game basis until there's an FAQ or similar.

On a personal level, were I taking Tigurius, I'd go with the 12" 'area-of-effect' argument: purely because it's more likely to result in a fun game for me and my opponent (particularly if my opponent is playing tau! )

When in doubt, the group I play in go for the least powerful option ? it saves a lot of tears!

I feel 100% confident now that 12" isn't the range of the power, that the range is 'self'.  Anytime you measure a range, if you're out of range you automatically miss.  However, the psychic power will still work if there are no enemy units within 12", you can still be hit by the perils of the warp.  In contrast, if a plasma gun is out of range it doesn't have the opportunity to overheat.  This, to me, is clearly a distinction from range. 

However, convincing a space marine player who drop-pods Tiggy into my lines and uses FotD that it only has a 12" area of effect will be absolutely impossible to do.  But I guess now I have a waterproof justification to award zero sportsmanship and composition points.

Good find Skyth, don't mind the others- this can actually change the game in an enormous way.

- Oaka

Posted By skyth on 02/20/2006 3:58 AM
Hello, the rules are PERMISSIVE...Since I'm not trying to take any action, I don't need ANY proof WHATSOEVER! But like usual, you keep on repeating the same 'The rules doesn't say it isn't' argument and ignoring that.

As Relic has pointed out, the 12" could be a couple things besides range, but you guys seem to just like arguing with me for argument's sake like little children and totally ignoring the actual issue. And this isn't the first time you've done this. Just grow up, will you?

Bull.  We've shown you multiple times where it can be considred the power's range.  Now put up or shut up and show us why it's not.  Get your head out of your *donkey* and prove it.

It won't change the game at all Oaka. The vast majority of players don't play it that way and probably won't play it that way. As you said, all it amounts to is a justifaction to dock someone on Sportsmanship for doing something you don't like. You'll never convince them they're playing it wrong.

I haven't seen an argument that conclusively illustrates what we're dealing with in terms of 'range'. For or against. I'm more leaning towards the 12" being the range of the power but there's enough doubt that I can't realy argue for it.
I know that Tiggy's range doubling ablity is way powerful when combined with fear but I'm not sure that there's enough here to say "Ah ha! You've been cheating us all along you filthy Power Armour loving such n' such!"

However, convincing a space marine player who drop-pods Tiggy into my lines and uses FotD that it only has a 12" range will be absolutely impossible to do.

Funny too that you chose to call it range after stating you don't belive it is range...

Agree with Oaka.

The range of FoD is 0" and the area of effect is 12" from the Librarian. Double the range and you still have an area of effect of 12" from Tigerius.

If Tigerius used SoEW (Smite), you would double the range to 24", not double the area of effect by using two blast markers.

Indeed, this is a good catch!
Mike

On a semi-related topic, let's say you can ignore the rules and double the area of effect of FoD:

Current area of effect (assuming you're measuring from the center and not the edge of the base to): 452.16 square inches (pi = 3.14)

Double the AoE (452.16 x 2): 904.32 square inches

Divide by pi (904.32 / 3.14): 288 inches

Take the square root of 288 to get radius of new AoE: 16.97 inches

Rounding up, I would say that an area of effect of 17" is a lot more reasonable for Tigerius.

Mike

I think the Effect is self, with a 12" area of effect is a strong argument. Course I think explaining that and fighting it out in a game would be more work that its worth.

Awful lot of hostility in this thread, and I can't tell why.

Ghaz, HBMC: I see merit in the contention that the range of FotD is 0", as it defines a centerpoint for an effect (namely, the librarian himself). Twice 0" remains 0". Can we get past the unjustified anger, and treat the question a little more seriously?

Think of it this way: if "range" is defined as the distance between a model and its target, what is the target of FotD? Seems like "Self" to me.

however, I can relate this with the "winds of Chaos" psycic power and the spell that doubles psycic power ranges. Now the Winds of Chaos is a power that doesn't have a specific range (given that its a template weapon), but if it doesn't have a specific range in the profile why did it say in the spell's profile that doubles the Psycic power weapon range that it is not available to use it with the Winds of chaos spell? It's a template weapon (area of affect), not a range weapon (ie. 12") but if this description that excluded the winds of chaos from being used wasn't there, it can be assumed that you could use them together.

Here's what I think (and I can see me argueing this myself), Tau players have a huge problem with this Tiggy spell let alone with it being double ranged. If I were a tau player, I would try to fight tooth and nail to get this affect removed from play. However, I would like to see that same tiggy to that to my berserkers.

It's called checks and balences....
(and bad spelling)

however, I can relate this with the "winds of Chaos" psycic power and the spell that doubles psycic power ranges. Now the Winds of Chaos is a power that doesn't have a specific range (given that its a template weapon), but if it doesn't have a specific range in the profile why did it say in the spell's profile that doubles the Psycic power weapon range that it is not available to use it with the Winds of chaos spell? It's a template weapon (area of affect), not a range weapon (ie. 12") but if this description that excluded the winds of chaos from being used wasn't there, it can be assumed that you could use them together.

Which would then create a very difficult rules situation - as in, how do you double the range of a flamer template? It is likely that the designer simply excluded Winds of Chaos to avoid difficult situations. In any case, it's not directly pertinent to this discussion.

I thought this was a discussion about area affect weapons (powers) and range of that weapon (power).

I was told by a friend about this thread, and I have to agree that it seems to me the "range" is 0". It is a self-cast spell that affects the librarian. He can't cast it on something within 12" of him.

The 12" is the area of affect. NOT the range.

Logic would say that the range is 0 and area of effect 12" around.

the problem that I see after that is what do you do with a power that kill model when you have to remove casualties in range and line of sigth. An exemple migth be the new wargear of the tau where a crisis suit explode. If we consider the range to be self. then it will kill nothing because the range is zero. The only way to make those self centered template to work is to have the range of the weapon equal to the area of effect of the weapon as a general rule.

So I would say that range of FOT is 12" but there is another restriction that force you to place the center of the template over the center of the area that is affected.

That is something that should be in the general FAQ for every instance of self centered  template

Just in time for general Adepticon confusion amongst the UltraMarine masses.

This is really about people complaining about how powerful it is when Tiggy goes captian caveman and ruins everyones poop. It's kinda like when somebody complains that I use mutated smoked rhinos to block my berserkers from firewarriors str 5 guns (look on the bright side, atleast I didn't use dread claws as transports.....which I just might do come to think of it)

The range of the "area of affect" is 12" from the model activating it, not zero.hey, my kroot are not in range of that affect because that affect has a 0" range LOL, ok. If this spell was a template weapon I could see argument, but its not. You cannot even beging to compare this to blast or template affect because this targets only enemy models while blst and templte doesn't. You can activate FOD even with others of your side are in the affect but wont affect them whereas you cannot even shoot your own team with a flamer. It even gives a range of the area of affect (12" from the point of origin ie Tiggy). Well, then double that range of affect when used in conjunction with that spell distance doubler and then you get 24" unless directly stated that you cannot used it with this spell (like the winds of chaos with its doubler).

Like I said before, checks and balances. If I get into CC range with my Berserkers I should be able to clean up a tau firewarrior army easy, unless they purposely space the troops 2 inches apart which causes them to easily break away once they fail their LD test and blast the crap outa me with str 5 rapid fire. See how low LD has advantages and disadvantages? Yet people complain about this FOD tactic cause it targets low LD saying that it's unfair. Well what about a whole army who demolish 1/2 of the entire berserker army with str 10 Railguns and 30" pulse rifles? I cant even shoot more than 12 inches with 90 percent of my army with the exception of rhinos and defilers who generally need to move anyway to get into position and line of sight. How unfair!!!? No, it is fair. It took me a while to get used to it, you should too.

The range of the "area of affect" is 12" from the model activating it, not zero.hey, my kroot are not in range of that affect because that affect has a 0" range LOL, ok. If this spell was a template weapon I could see argument, but its not. You cannot even beging to compare this to blast or template affect because this targets only enemy models while blst and templte doesn't. You can activate FOD even with others of your side are in the affect but wont affect them whereas you cannot even shoot your own team with a flamer. It even gives a range of the area of affect (12" from the point of origin ie Tiggy).

The argument is not whether or not it is a template effect. Nobody's really arguing that - the question is whether or not 12" is a range or a defining point for an area of effect.

As a side note, it should be said that it does not matter what anyone's opinion of this power or character is. The only questions are the rules and interpretations thereof.

To say the 'range of area of effect is 12"' is not accurate. The two terms are distinct. Tigurius doubles the range of a power, not its area of effect. Even if the range were 0, nobody could argue that they were 'not within range', because the area of effect is clearly defined - ie. even if the range is 0, people within 12" will still be affected. The question is more about what the definition of 'range' is.

Janthkin defines range as the distance between a model and its target. That's a good, simplified, working definition of range, since range only has meaning when applied to whether or not a weapon/power affects a target within its maximum range. In that case, then, does FoD have a range of 12", and thus the ability to target all enemies within that range, or a range of 0, or 'self', and an area of effect with radius 12"?

Consider this example. A librarian attempts to cast Storm of Emperor's Wrath, but upon measuring, finds that the target unit is 13" away. In other words, the target unit is out of range, but close enough that he could cover a model with the area of effect (the template could cover that model if placed 12" away from the librarian). Is that model affected? No - the target is out of range, and the power does not happen.

Consider the same situation with FoD. The librarian attempts to cast FoD, but upon measuring, finds that there are no enemy units within 12". Is the power cast anyway? If 12" is its range, then the answer would seem to be no, because there are no targets within range. If the range is 0, or 'self', however, it seems to suggest that the power would be cast anyway, and just have nothing within its area of effect.

That's the crux of it, really - range only has meaning when defining distance between a model and its target, up to the maximum distance that model is allowed to affect its target at.

Just one thing about your argument about it not being a range...

Vortex of Doom also doesn't specifically mention a range. It says,
"Place the small blast template over any enemy unit not locked in an assault within 12" of the Librarian."

Does VoD not have a range either? Does Tiggy only work on Storm of the Emperor's Wrath?

Here's enough proof for me that FotD's 12" is a range: psychic powers follow the shooting rules unless otherwise specified.
Does it target like shooting? No.
Does it have range like shooting? Yes, but affects multiple targets.
Does it inflict wounds? No, but Morale tests are made like shooting.

Where I can, I follow the shooting rules - and this does have some rules that can be applied like shooting.

Here's enough proof for me that FotD's 12" is a range: psychic powers follow the shooting rules unless otherwise specified.
Does it target like shooting? No.
Does it have range like shooting? Yes, but affects multiple targets.
Does it inflict wounds? No, but Morale tests are made like shooting.

So your argument is that FotD has a range, which is 12", and has multiple targets within that range? Sounds fair to me.

Provided, of course, you are consistent with that definition, and require the Librarian to have LOS to all his targets.

Amusingly this type of arguement happened long ago in WHFB, of all places. The HE special character Teclis had an ability which boosted the range of spells (to everything in LOS, admittedly) which was later revised to not include any spells which affected all units within a certain radius range (in the WH Annual 200...4?)

I'm not saying this is applicable in this situation (since these are two separate games), I'm just appreciating the irony that they would cause the exact same situational debate with psy powers

I see and understand what you say and I agree to what example given with the storm of emperors wrath, however that is using a blast template situation and that is different than this situation given that if the range was zero, you couldn't even activate FOD because no enemy models are in the 0" range to declare the power being used on if you were to compare it to a shooting weapon. I also would normally agree with it not doubling the distance however, when I see exclusions of the "winds of chaos" example using a template weapon, that gives question as to why they didn't exclude the FOD. It cannot be because they thought that it doesnt have to be described because it doesn't pertain to it. If there has been no instance where template weapon has ever been doubled, then why exclude it specifically?
This is why I say that if it doesn't exclude FOD, then I'd say use it.
I woundn't stop someone from using it against me because I wouldn't have an example of exclusion or a rule which states otherwise.
Good points, though. I really do apreciate your input.

So your argument is that FotD has a range, which is 12", and has multiple targets within that range? Sounds fair to me.
Provided, of course, you are consistent with that definition, and require the Librarian to have LOS to all his targets.

Except that it specifically breaks those rules. Just like FotA. Heh, the other specifically mentioned rules that you must follow when doing Psychic Powers is that you can only target one unit... and this obviously breaks that rule as well. Which is why you apply the Shooting Rules when you can for each step in each power - and ignore them when the power obviously doesn't follow them.

I suppose it's better than inventing new game terms like "area of effect".

that is different than this situation given that if the range was zero, you couldn't even activate FOD because no enemy models are in the 0" range to declare the power being used on if you were to compare it to a shooting weapon.

That would only be true if you believe that enemy units are the targets of FoD. If there is no target, or the target is the Librarian, then he can always cast FoD, and it still has an area of effect, but no range.

I don't actually have a particular opinion one way or another - I am happy for someone to prove that there is a range, or that there is not a range. I am only trying to define terms so that there can be some sort of intelligent discussion.

Heh, the other specifically mentioned rules that you must follow when doing Psychic Powers is that you can only target one unit... and this obviously breaks that rule as well.

Absolutely it does. If you believe that the target(s) of FoD are all enemy units within range, then it clearly breaks the rule of only targetting one enemy unit. However, I don't see any mention of it also breaking the rule of having LOS to your target.

However, I don't see any mention of it also breaking the rule of having LOS to your target.

"Every enemy unit within 12"..."
'Every' excepts it from the rule. Just as it does with FotA.

Me finding this came about when I was thinking about the argument about bolters rapid firing. You can only target units within 12", but (As decided here) that 12" wasn't the actual range, as range was a game term and the 12" wasn't specifically called range, so casaulties could be removed to the full 24" range of the gun.

This power combination has the same issue with it. The 12" isn't actually labeled range.

And thank you Oaka and Relic for putting the argument in much better terms than I can. I don't have much of a way with words. Don't mind Ghaz and H... They just have an irrational need to argue with me regardless of the issue.

So if 12" is the range, does that make the following scenario possible?

1) Cast FoTD, no models within 12"
2) On your opponent's subsequent assault phase (same turn) librarian gets assaulted. Can he then use his Force Weapon?

Also seems to me that the burden of proof here is pretty clearly on HBMC/Ghaz/the others who agree with him.

The 12" distance discussed in FoTD is not called a range. Their position infers that this is actually a range. They should have to demonstrate why this inference is correct, and IMO haven't done so at all. The best they've managed is, summarized, "of course it's range you nub"

"Every enemy unit within 12"..."
'Every' excepts it from the rule. Just as it does with FotA.

Not quite accurate - the question with Fury is whether it targets the board edge, or nothing at all. There's no question as to whether it targets all units along that line.

Your argument is not quite sound - here's why. By the Shooting Rules:

P1. You can select any enemy unit as a target. (p19) It goes on to mention, on this page, that you may have to make a Leadership check if you wish to select a unit other than the closest one - that is not relevant here.

P2. You cannot select a unit as a target if you do not have Line of Sight to it. (p20) This is a corollary rule to the first premise - if you cannot draw LOS, you cannot have it as a target.

P3. Once you have chosen a target, you measure range to it. (p22) This is the most pertinent part to this thread - it defines range as a term in the shooting rules, as something that separates a model and its target, up to the maximum range of the weapon.

Now, your statement as to how FotD works is:

P4. Fear of the Darkness allows you to select every enemy unit within 12" as a target. And I have no argument with this as a principle. This is also a clear contradiction to P1, above, and since this is the more specific rule, it applies for Fear of the Darkness. However, it does not also contradict the corollary rule (P2) - without a specific exception to the general rule of LOS, there is no reason to assume that FotD allows you to select targets that you do not have LOS to.

Consider the situation of a unit that cannot draw LOS to any enemy unit. This unit cannot select a target, by the premises listed above. Your argument, however, would be to say that the rules clearly say I can select an enemy unit as a target, therefore I must be able to select an enemy unit as a target. Even though that unit cannot meet the requirements of LOS, your argument would be that to prevent it from selecting a target would be to break the rules, just as (you say) not allowing FotD to select all enemy units within 12" would be breaking the rules. This is why your argument is unsound.

Now, if FotD has no target, or if the target is the Librarian, then that is another matter. In such a case, the enemy units are not targets of the power, therefore LOS is not required. But then, from what I see, the power also has no range, since the rules only tell us how to measure range to a target. It would still affect all enemies within 12", but that 12" would not be defined as the range of the power.

Then by your reasoning, Vortex of Doom has no range either.

Then by your reasoning, Vortex of Doom has no range either.

Why would you say that? It has a target, and a maximum distance at which it can affect that target - seems to meet all the criteria of range.

Because it doesn't specifically say "range"
Otherwise, the wording between it and FotD are near exact for how to select targets - just that VoD selects 1 and FotD selects every.

Whilst reading this thread for pure sick amusement value, I stumbled on Oaka's comment.

"However, convincing a space marine player who drop-pods Tiggy into my lines and uses FotD that it only has a 12" area of effect will be absolutely impossible to do. But I guess now I have a waterproof justification to award zero sportsmanship and composition points."

I apologise for the personal attack but I am absolutely blown away by the fact that an adult can say this. Further to that I say thank the powers on high that people like you no longer have the power to do that in any competition where it actually counts. (Thanks to the fact that the Yanks now have to play the same game the Poms (and the rest of the world do)).

If you want to give the lowest ranking of 3 categories for sportsmanship- go ahead. I can't stop you. You feel you've been cheated in some way, so fine. But then going ahead and giving 0 for composition based on a difference in opinion of the rules???
I cant actually explain how shocked I am. A teenager- yes. An adult doing this??? Thankfully, as said- in any real GW tourney you'll never ever have the option to do this. Rant over. And apologies for wasting band width on it.

Because it doesn't specifically say "range"
Otherwise, the wording between it and FotD are near exact for how to select targets - just that VoD selects 1 and FotD selects every.

You aren't reading me right - if FotD does target every enemy unit within 12", then I agree that 12" is the range, because range is a term that is defined with respect to a model and its target(s). Similarly, Vortex also clearly has a target, and a maximum distance at which it can affect that target - looks very clearly to be a range.

The question in my mind is whether or not FotD really does target every enemy unit within 12", or if it has no target, or the target is the Librarian itself, and 12" just the radius in which the power takes effect. I do not currently have a personal position as to whether or not FotD targets enemy units or has no target at all - that opinion is what I would like to see presented and defended in this thread.

You have a position - you say that FotD does target enemy units. That's fine with me. All I have to say on that is that if you do treat FotD as targetting enemy units, then to be consistent you must follow the rules for targets, which say that you must have LOS to those targets.

Had to add my two cents to this.The Psychic powers rules state that psychic powers and I quote "Unless specified otherwise, psychic abilities are subject to the usual shooting rules, so the psker must be able to see the target, all the attacks must be directed against a single target unit, etc." end quote

The characters Rules state and I quote "Characters function in the same manner as normal troopers during the shooting phase, though they will often have abilities superior to the press of men around them." end quote. I'd say this is one of those cases.

The psychic power F.O.T.D does not state anything specail about line of sight so by this agrument they would have to be in L.O.S, it does however state that all units as opposed to one unit are affected so I'd say that is not going against the shooting process 'choose a target' he is still choosing a traget it's just that he gets to choose more than one. It aslo states and I quote yet again" all normal modifiers and/or exceptions apply", If used in this way I'd say the "area of affect/range" is doubled. 12" becomes 24"

If on the other hand you argue that it doesn't need line of sight because the psychic power doesn't say it needs L.O.S, because it affects 'all' units then you are not following the rules for firing a weapon (and in my opinion psychic powers) and can't then double its "area of affect/range"

P.S. I think the FAQ below shows that just becasue they didn't state range in F.O.T.D does not mean it was not inferred.

Ow and from the GW FAQ's
[40k] Rapid Fire and Casualties - MOD-Jhorred(Jeff)
Replies [0]. This Reply Posted [4/12/2005 9:19].

From Pete Haines through Tim:

Got a reply from Pete on it, and yes you must remove casualties from within the range of the weapon. Rapid Firing means you have a 12? range, and thus casualties must come from within 12 inches.

?The answer is that models in range and arc must be removed a la page 26. When bolters fire twice their range is 12" so only models within 12" can be removed.?

Jeff

Posted By Red on 02/21/2006 6:17 AM
P.S. I think the FAQ below shows that just becasue they didn't state range in F.O.T.D does not mean it was not inferred.
......
From Pete Haines through Tim:
......

Please don't post these "FAQs". They are meaningless drivel until posted as a PDF FAQ on the GW site. Until then, it is simply some unknown guy's unconfirmed opinion who says that ex-employee Pete said so. You couldn't trade this "info" for sand in the desert.

Well, I'm going to agree with Skyth. Range is a defined game term. Fear doesn't have a range. Only range is doubled.

At best the point is ambiguous (and I don't think it is) which means tiggy's owner must take the more restrictive of the two options.

And I (literally) just finished putting together a tiggy drop pod army.

Guess Tiggy goes back on the shelf.

Good job Skyth.

From Dictionary.com

range Audio pronunciation of "range" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rnj)
n.

1.
1. Extent of perception, knowledge, experience, or ability.
2. The area or sphere in which an activity takes place.
3. The full extent covered: within the range of possibilities.

How is the are of effect not range and how does the fact that Range is a defined game term preclude rules being written using the word range in common parlance?

The FOD Range is its area of effect. Ditto for a Bolter. C'mon people it's english 101.

Posted By Zubbiefish on 02/21/2006 11:30 AM
How is the are of effect not range and how does the fact that Range is a defined game term preclude rules being written using the word range in common parlance?

For the reason that there does exist a game specific definition. Much like Troops and troops. If the game defines a term, then that term must stick to the game defined definition, other wise anarchy ensues. "OOOOHH, I didn't realise they meant Fire in the game sense, and not FIRE!!!! in the chemical reaction sense. Sorry about torching your figs man, honest mistake."

I'm not sure I see your point. Yes, range has more than one meaning. Most words do.

But Range is a defined game term, and Fear lacks the version of "range" that's a defined game term.

 

Okay sorry I wasn't clear.
What I'm wondering is how the defined game term "range" itself causes the broader definition of the word range to cease to apply. Range, as a game term, doen't nescesarily restrict the definition to "the property of a weapon" it is a property of weapons but I don't think that it's exclusive to them.
I see what you mean since Psychic powers follow the shooting rules in as many ways as they can unless there's a specific exemption that if there's no "range" then it can't follow that part and Tiggy only alows for a doubling of "range" the shooting term not any other kind.
I don't agree with that assessment.
Sometimes a word is just a word. Range is, in all cases, used in its common form with the exeption of weapon profiles. FOTD doesn't have a profile or a term "range" so it isn't bound by the specific shooting term "range". Same with Tiggy he doubles the range of psychic powers not the "range" the general term allows for the specific.

Now you'll say, "but the specific overrides the general."
You'll be right and I'll shut up now.

So how is Adepticon going to rule this?  I'd like to know either way because I know there will be all drop-pod armies at the team tournament, and I feel fairly confident there will be at least one team that has 4 Ultra droppods with a Tigurius in there.

- Oaka

Post it over on their boards.

AH-HA! I'm Still wrong!!!!

So if Fear has no range and fear has the same wording as most every other psychic power, like all the Eldar ones, are you telling me the Eldar psychic powers have no range listed and thus the Warlock power, Augment, is completely useless.  That is what some of you are saying when you say since the psychic power FotD says within and not directly 'range' then Eldritch storm, Fortune, Guide, and Mindwar have no range and thus can never be augmented.

 

 

So if Fear has no range and fear has the same wording as most every other psychic power, like all the Eldar ones, are you telling me the Eldar psychic powers have no range listed and thus the Warlock power, Augment, is completely useless. That is what some of you are saying when you say since the psychic power FotD says within and not directly 'range' then Eldritch storm, Fortune, Guide, and Mindwar have no range and thus can never be augmented.

As far as I'm concerned, the term 'range' only has meaning in game terms when used to define a distance between a model and its target, up to the maximum distance it can affect that target at. This is derived from the idea that in the rules, you are only told to measure range to targets - if you're measuring a distance for some other reason, it's still a distance and what you do within that distance can have meaning in the rules, but it's not a 'range' for game purposes.

The Eldar powers all have targets. That target may be a model or your own unit, but they have targets. They have a maximum distance they can affect that target at, and that is therefore a range for game purposes. If you treat FoD as having targets, then it would also have a range, but the general consensus is that the power has no targets, or the target is the librarian itself.

Will a Basilisk have a minimum 'range' since it can place it's blast template anywhere, not targeting anyone or any unit?

PG. 22 in the rulebook says "All weapons havea  maximum effective range that tells you the furthest distance they can shoot."

It then mentions that if a target is out of range the shot fails.  Wouldn't the Fears targets be anything within 12" of the Librarian?

The power Holocaust uses a template as it's are of affect.  If the Fear is considered a template 12" away from the librarian why wouldn't they say to place a 12" template over the librarian?

Is there a case where the range is not mentioned, range as in a weapons profile, for a psychic power and a roll to hit not required? 

Is it possible that in every instance where a psychic power has a weapons normal profile, including the word 'range', that power only works after a roll to hit is made?

Is is possible that every psychic power that does not have a weapon profile, like Fear, Eldritch Storm, Holocaust, etc.. means that it does not require a roll to hit to work? and in fact has a range that can be doubled?

Could it be possible that the rule on page 22 defining range implies that a roll to hit must be made for these weapons and that is why you need to check for distance between the weapon and the unit targeted.  Any weapon that does not specifically target a unit will not require this.

Will a Basilisk have a minimum 'range' since it can place it's blast template anywhere, not targeting anyone or any unit?

But it can't. The rules for barrage weapons say, designate a target unit, and place the template over that, with the centre hole over a model. I don't have a Guard codex with me, but I'm pretty sure the basilisk just says to use the Barrage rules for indirect fire.

It then mentions that if a target is out of range the shot fails.  Wouldn't the Fears targets be anything within 12" of the Librarian?

It could be, if you wanted to define it as that. If it is, however, then you must follow the rules for targets, which say that you must have LOS to all targets of the power.

The power Holocaust uses a template as it's are of affect.  If the Fear is considered a template 12" away from the librarian why wouldn't they say to place a 12" template over the librarian?

Because there's no 12" template.

Could it be possible that the rule on page 22 defining range implies that a roll to hit must be made for these weapons and that is why you need to check for distance between the weapon and the unit targeted.  Any weapon that does not specifically target a unit will not require this.

I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that if a weapon does not roll to hit, it doesn't have a range?

According to Websters:

range ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rnj)
n.

The area or sphere in which an activity takes place.

The maximum extent or distance limiting operation, action, or effectiveness, as of a projectile, aircraft, radio signal, or sound.
The distance between a projectile weapon and its target.

Extraneous refferences deleted.

And this is relevant how?

Range is a defined game term.

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/spacemarines/gaming/tactica_librarian/conclusion.htm

Someone should tell GW that they wrote their article on SM Librarians incorrectly.

Or maybe this whole thing would just get laughed out of a GT by the GW judges the moment it was brought up as a point of contention against a Ultramarines player.

Posted By mauleed on 02/27/2006 9:10 PM

And this is relevant how?

Range is a defined game term.

A game term defined by the english language. Unless of course you want "Flight" to mean "Stationary", in which case by all means, use whatever "words" to "mean" whatever you'd like.

However, i would postulate that when a distance has been assigned to an offensive ability, a range is implied.

I really don't think that GW intended for us to debate the english language and redefine definitions everytime we consulted thier rule book.

 

But that's just my take on things.

Thunderkiss, as was noted on a previous page, "range" has a number of different meanings in the English language. GW was "kind" enough to tell us which one we use when we play 40k.

Heh, musta been page 4, i skipped that one as the topic was dragging i just figured it was a forgone conclusion there but i suppose everything is up for debate at dakka sometimes. I wonder what "is" is .....

And after a loud huff and a re-read of the stickies i retract my postulations for being exactly that, postulations.

Debate on .....

Out of curiosity and just for clarifications sake (with regards to Voodoo) are we dismissing the GW written articles as no rules backup (as is custom with YMTC) ?

I say present any and all information you have. . .let each person worry about how the "officiality" of such material applies to their decision.


I'd certainly like to know what you're talking about.

Morticon may be referring to the above link to the GW website, which has info about the psychic powers and mentions Tigurious specifically:

"As mentioned before, a Librarian can ruin the lines of a low-Leadership army with Fear of the Darkness. This impact can be even more dramatic with Chief Librarian Tigurius's doubled range."  etc.

This would seem to imply that the Range of the effect is doubled.  This, while debateable in the RAW, seems to be pretty clear.

It also brings up another oft-debated issue, which is OT:

"Fury of the Ancients. This power is particularly useful at long range, as it can go all the way across the board (within line-of-sight, of course). Fury of the Ancients is even more useful if you can draw its path over several enemy units."  Link below...

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/spacemarines/gaming/tactica_librarian/powers.htm

Sigh, oh for an editor...

Mistakes in a GW tactica article are no more official rules than mistakes in battle reports, mistakes on their forums, mistakes by their mail order hotline, or mistakes down at the local game store.

Not debating that at all.  Just posted it in response to Yakface's request to present any and all info from any source so that people can make up their own mind on its veracity or applicability.

I appreciate that they do these articles on the website, and post their "officially not official" FAQ's on their boards, but it really wouldn't kill 'em to actually make a few rulings, and make them official.  That being said, any information that I can find is grist for the debate in my eyes.

 

I appreciate it.

I always like to see exactly how GW manages to make things ever more confusing.

The issue is, if you're basing how you like to play on things other than actual rules, invariably you'll run across people that will say "sorry, I only like to follow the rules." and your arguments of "well the white dwarf battle report said..." all go to waste.

Agreed.  But then we're talking about 40k and GW.  Not that its an excuse, but 40k has always been about using everything available to play, and has never been strictly about the rules, especially considering the sheer number of gray areas they have.

With 2 or 3 people from these boards, we could edit the rulebook, close up 99.7% of the holes, and we'd have a decent ruleset, and I'd do it for free...

The problem with that online Librarian Tactica is that it was written by a player who has probably never met the rules designers and was likely in the same situation we are in now and went off of his own interpretation.  Using pieces of text like that to support rules is impossible.  How can you argue someone that has the GW publication of the wargear book in their hands that terminators don't have a 3+ save?

In addition, I am confident that most players that would use that tactica as evidence that Tigurius doubles the effect radius of Fear would conveniently forget about that little part mentioning needing line of sight to a table edge for Fury.  This is only based on my experience that people tend to interpret grey areas to their best interest.  I'm guilty of the same thing, myself.

- Oaka

"In addition, I am confident that most players that would use that tactica as evidence that Tigurius doubles the effect radius of Fear would conveniently forget about that little part mentioning needing line of sight to a table edge for Fury.  This is only based on my experience that people tend to interpret grey areas to their best interest.  I'm guilty of the same thing, myself."

Well, pardon me, but that's f'n ridiculous. If you "tend to interpret grey areas in your best interest", you're a lowly dog. Cut it out. It's unethical, immoral, and possibly evil. I implore you, for the sake of your immortal soul, stop it.

I refuse to play that fury needs LOS. But I also refuse to play that Tiggy's fear works out to 24" (and lately I've been fielding tiggy). And I lose no sleep doing it.

Posted By mauleed on 03/01/2006 6:48 PM

Well, pardon me, but that's f'n ridiculous. If you "tend to interpret grey areas in your best interest", you're a lowly dog. Cut it out. It's unethical, immoral, and possibly evil. I implore you, for the sake of your immortal soul, stop it.

I refuse to play that fury needs LOS. But I also refuse to play that Tiggy's fear works out to 24" (and lately I've been fielding tiggy). And I lose no sleep doing it.

 

If I were a doctor I would agree with you, but since it is a game where we push around toy soldiers I don't lose sleep over it either.  An example that comes to my mind right now where I interpret grey areas in the rules in my favor is that I will put the first wound on my Kroot units on the 3-wound shaper and then put remaining wounds on the 1-wound Kroot.  This has hurt me, on occassion, however, with fire superiority or mind war, so it has its drawbacks.  I don't think that is being evil.  Evil would be not allowing your opponent's terminators to deepstrike in because they don't have terminator armor and then casually adding up your victory points for them on turn 1. 

Also, I don't see how playing Fury without needing LOS isn't in your favor, either.  Last I checked it was still under interpretation as part of that whole messed up when-do-psychic-powers-follow-normal-shooting-rules debate (Or the WDPPFNSR Phenomenon for short).

... Not too worried about my immortal soul, either.  I traded it in sixth grade for a kudos bar.

- Oaka

Not too worried about my immortal soul, either. I traded it in sixth grade for a kudos bar.

Which kind, the good kind with the chocolate coating and peanut butter, or possibly chocolate chips inside, or the bad kind, the kind with mini M&Ms or snickers pieces which masquerades as poor excuse for a Kudos bar?

God, I haven't had one of those in years. Damn, they were good. Especially the peanut butter ones. You know what else was really good? Twix bars. You could buy them in boxes in the cookie section, and they came in one per wrapper, not two, and the wrapper wasn't the shiny crap we have now, but that simple brownish/beige color. The peanut butter ones were great, and IIRC, they had some interesting fudge ones too. Those were the days.

I'm a bit new to all of this forum stuff.........

but does any body out there own a wait for it dictionary............ yep weird and wonderful though they seem I believe they help clear up slightly strange arguments......

here goes an interesting little point on the word range that I believe kind of points out a somewhat startling conclusion that the arae of effect of fear the darkness is 24"

 

a. Extent of perception, knowledge, experience, or ability.

b. The area or sphere in which an activity takes place.

Sorry kind of said I was new to this bumph............

If out of date should thread not have been closed???

Any how onwards and upwards will look to keep up to date in future thanks for the tip............