33344
Post by: Deeks2010
Following this years price hike due to tax levels increasing, and no doubt additional price rises in future months/years, I was wondering when it would get to the point that GW eventually priced themselves out of the market.
When will it come to the point that people just say "how much? im not paying that for a model kit" or something similar, for instance GW recent price increases put the price of a 5 man devastator squad up to £20.50 in the UK that £4.10 per model, quite expensive really if you think about it.
Im collecting the entire 2nd company of space marines with additional tanks etc the same as the picture in the codex space marines and this will cost somewhere in the region of £1,200(if you bought it all from GW) to build let alone the paint and glue and time put into it. thats a heck alot of money for what is simply some plastic/metal models.
Now I know that if I dont like the idea of paying that much then I dont have to get into the hobby, but I have, I also shop around for alot of stuff cheaper than GW prices, I was just wondering when would it get to the point for some of you to say enough is enough and not to buy anymore?
Ellis
9422
Post by: Comrade
when it starts to be a question of models or rent. But it shouldn't get that bad, i like the hobby, even if gw buys it, more then likely some other company will try to buy the rights to warhammer/ 40K ad they'll get it at clearance pricing and prices may drop by the buyout. And anyways. There are tons of 28mm miniature makers out there at competitive prices. Shoot, i still can get warzone models and they went out of business half a decade ago.
26031
Post by: shealyr
One of the great things about it is that an army is essentially a one-time expense. Once you buy a model, you can use it for years and years, with the only real expenses being a new codex/army book, and a few new models each edition. Once you're established in it, assuming you don't go new-army-crazy, it really isn't all that expensive.
Of course, this is just for playing. If you buy models to paint, you should probably be looking at ranges outside of GW...
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
There won't be an absolute cut off point for most people. They will just reduce their buying, or perhaps switch to cheaper games.
Last year's price increase got me to start buying as much as possible second hand. £27 for three Raveners made me raise my eyebrows and shut my wallet.
I still buy some new stuff, if I have to, but I'm very careful with my buying.
Take comfort from the fact that GW isn't the only game in the world and most other genres are quite a bit cheaper. If you have to give up GW completely, there are plenty of alternatives.
21499
Post by: Mr. Burning
If my allocation of disposable income set aside for wargaming failed to offer significant return then I guess I would find something else to do.
GW's 'The Hobby' (TM) and 'The Hobby' are two totally distinct things. 'The Hobby' is rich with affordable and well supported game systems, and always will be.
31725
Post by: Walrus
when the money im spending no longer gives me enjoyment from playing the game.
GW can double their prices and people will keep buying if its something they like.
6084
Post by: theHandofGork
I believe OP is really asking when will GW become too expensive, which is a discussion most of us have already had or read here.
The wargamming hobby in general (as opposed to solely GW) isn't overly expensive. Indeed, barring extraordinary circumstances, it will never be too expensive to play 15mm ancients for example.
9892
Post by: Flashman
I'm at the stage where the cost of an item really does influence whether I include it in my army. I actually look at it in terms of how many points do I get for my pounds e.g. whilst I don't play Space Marines, would I fork out £20.00 for a Rhino when it only fills out 35 points of my army? Not a chance.
Like KK, I focus on shopping around for second hand stuff. This week, I wanted some Guardians and wasn't going to pay £20 for them, so I pulled up every Guardian squad sale on ebay and watched them all week until I found one at the right price (not as time consuming as it sounds). Including postage, I got them for £11.50, which is roughly a 40% discount.
18410
Post by: filbert
Same as above really. every time GW chose to raise prices, more people take a step back and make decisions based on that. Some stop playing all together, some switch to other systems, some only buy second hand. Personally, I stopped buying new GW product after last year's price rise. It good to see that decision vindicated since the further increases and VAT rise. I only buy stuff from ebay now.
25220
Post by: WarOne
The sticker shock drives me to make smaller purchases.
The introductory set Assault on Black Reach was in my opinion a reasonable purchase.
Subsequent purchases for retail value have left me questioning my own sanity.
Ergo, second hand market and trading miniatures for ones I need.
34906
Post by: Pacific
As well as being too expensive to continue the hobby, I think the biggest problem will be in terms of getting new players to begin. Looking at the new WFB and O&G army as way of example, the change of rules which now gives bias towards large blocks of infantry, as well as their corresponding increase in price, could well be a killer. A large block of bog standard orcs now stands at around $100, which I think is utterly insane considering GW's strategy of setting their sights on the younger gamer.
Aside from price, I also think the movement of emphasis firmly away from skirmish warfare and towards 'apocalypse' style games (in both 40k and WFB) I think is enough to put off anyone wanting to start a new army, in that the experience is akin to being stood at the base of a mountain - it will take a hell of a lot of both patience and determination to play either game as GW intends and with a finished army, and unfortunately I think a number of people just aren't going to bother.
105
Post by: Sarigar
Granted, I understand that it is an expensive hobby and we pay way too much for little plastic soldiers. Having said that, it becomes too expensive for the hobby when a person simply can't afford it.
But, GW can't stop the secondary market and it's the way a lot of folks have turned towards to make their purchases.
16711
Post by: fredox
Personally it depends on what part of 'the hobby' your looking at. I just droppped £200+ on resin bases for one army. Forgeworld is another place I don't mind paying the prices. £18 for 10 orc boyz however is a different matter. When I saw the change to the box size I made sure I got the last few 19 strong boxes availible locally. It basically boils down to rank and file V's special pieces. Kinda glad I started the traditional horde armies a while back as there's not a lot of chance I'd start them now.
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
Yeah when you have been collection for some decades you have options on your collections to cover your hobby for a lifetime, although people change and even the oldest more hardcore player in the past gets fed up of constant price rises and rules shifting to push you to change your units to bigger sizes etc... For me personally it will be to expensive when I cant afford Greenstuff and unless the world changes a LOT I think I'm covered for the rest of my life since GS is not that expensive.
As far as "gw hobby" this year I looked at my collections and started to feel like they were a burden to have rather than a enjoyment and even considered to sell most of it... Constrained myself from selling but dont know if I will manage to keep them in the future...
The price for individual miniatures is not shocking if you only have to buy 1 of them but the problem are the rules that push you to buy 10x the same thing.
7361
Post by: Howard A Treesong
They are already too expensive fro my tastes, I have the very occasional treat from GW like a christmas present. Everything is bought second hand.
There won't be a cut off for most, people will just adjust their purchases accordingly. I don't know what GW's thinking is with repackaging the Orc boyz. Do they expect people will now simply pay almost twice as much and buy two boxes just to get the number of figures they could a month ago? I don't think it will work like that, most people just accept getting less for their money. GW may be some people's crack, but most don't instantly start pouring in substantially more money to keep getting the same fix, they will accept getting less for the same expenditure.
Their pricing makes it difficult to collect swarm armies, it's no wonder space marines are popular.
35356
Post by: Cannibal
I would say that as long as there are people who collect the Ultramarine's entire 2nd company then GW's prospects for tomarrow are looking pretty fair.
39195
Post by: Asuron
They have already priced themselves out of the market
Take one look at their sales reports
The only reason it doesn't look as bad as it actually is, is because of the cost cuts which mask the problem
When the problem finally becomes to large for them to keep ignoring it, it may be too late to fix it
I have no doubt people will keep buying their products no matter how expensive it gets, but that market will keep diminishing with every price increase
Take for example the reduction of the Orc Boyz in Fantasy
Instead of the 20 units , now its 10 units for the exact same price with no change at all
Now combine that with the fact they are a horde army, that you need tons of these guys to make a substantial force according to the rules they set.
Not only does it become ridiculous for current players, but it wares new players off entirely because they cannot get anything resembling a decent sized force without burning a hole in their wallets
10104
Post by: snurl
I don't buy new figures just because I think they look cool anymore, they have to have some use.
But I already have a boatload of figures so its not that big of a deal.
Most of my purchases are made with gift certificates from Christmas or my B-Day.
But the hobby will really become too expensive when my wife finds out just how much I've spent on this stuff over the years.
9892
Post by: Flashman
snurl wrote:But the hobby will really become too expensive when my wife finds out just how much I've spent on this stuff over the years.
Probably the same amount she spends on clothes and shoes. Men and women are not all that different really
19650
Post by: shingouki
at the moment im discusted with what gw are charging for models.i know costs rise im not stupid but it seems we are paying a lot for i little i mean £27.70 for a five man terminator squad is ridiculus.you will get people telling you its not that much really in the grand scheme of things but i disagree.
gw seem to be charging more money for units that are more points expensive but little more in the way of actual materiel cost ie plastic.i don't see why a five man terminator squad should cost more than a ten man tactical squad,surely its about the same amount of materials to make,plastics packaging etc.
i may be coming over as anti gw or a tight arse but im really not i love both 40k and fantasy and have spent a lot of time and money on my hobby but i think eventually im going to get put off buying.for new people starting the hobby i think expense is going to affect numbers too.
feel free to hammer me if you think im a grumpy git.
5636
Post by: warpcrafter
I lost a quarter of my income a couple of years ago, so now I'm not buying any more GW stuff until I sell my chaos space marines. (Hint hint!!!)
5269
Post by: lord_blackfang
shingouki wrote:gw seem to be charging more money for units that are more points expensive but little more in the way of actual materiel cost ie plastic.i don't see why a five man terminator squad should cost more than a ten man tactical squad,surely its about the same amount of materials to make,plastics packaging etc.
Funny, this is the one thing I like about GW. It infuriates me that Privateer Press basically charges for models by weight.
I am not buying pewter or plastic by the kilo here, I'm buying two things: art pieces and functional game elements. They should be priced according to their their usefulness, how hard they were to produce, and how many they intend to sell. Raw material makes up such a small fraction of production costs that it shouldn't be a factor most of the time, certainly with plastic.
Saying that they should charge the same for a sprue of Termies and a sprue of Grots is to me the same nonsense as saying they should charge the same for Honda and a BMW because they are made from the same amount of material.
11060
Post by: Phototoxin
I might only get a pot of paint in store as its more cost effective and quicker than ordering it online. Other that that I'll use the local modelzone and ebay, wayland or whatever to order my stuff.
Warmahordes is pricey now but mantic aren't nor are a plethora of other skirmish-y games.
That said I'm not liking the new fantasy - too much 'slam blocks of over priced minis together' so I think my current army will be my last foray as the 'Fun:£' ratio isn't there for me and I think the Fun to £ ratio is important.
I honestly think I've had more fun with things like Gorkamorka and Mordheim which were lots of fun for the cost involved.
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
lord_blackfang wrote:shingouki wrote:gw seem to be charging more money for units that are more points expensive but little more in the way of actual materiel cost ie plastic.i don't see why a five man terminator squad should cost more than a ten man tactical squad,surely its about the same amount of materials to make,plastics packaging etc.
Funny, this is the one thing I like about GW. It infuriates me that Privateer Press basically charges for models by weight.
I am not buying pewter or plastic by the kilo here, I'm buying two things: art pieces and functional game elements. They should be priced according to their their usefulness, how hard they were to produce, and how many they intend to sell. Raw material makes up such a small fraction of production costs that it shouldn't be a factor most of the time, certainly with plastic.
Saying that they should charge the same for a sprue of Termies and a sprue of Grots is to me the same nonsense as saying they should charge the same for Honda and a BMW because they are made from the same amount of material.
I disagree with you, these are not pieces of art and just fancy gaming tokens for you to paint... so rather prefer to buy based on material costs ( wich are quite diferent depending on the size of metal miniatures) than on subjective notions of art... because if you go there the prices will skyrocket...
7361
Post by: Howard A Treesong
Phototoxin wrote:I might only get a pot of paint in store as its more cost effective and quicker than ordering it online. Other that that I'll use the local modelzone and ebay, wayland or whatever to order my stuff. Warmahordes is pricey now but mantic aren't nor are a plethora of other skirmish-y games. That said I'm not liking the new fantasy - too much 'slam blocks of over priced minis together' so I think my current army will be my last foray as the 'Fun:£' ratio isn't there for me and I think the Fun to £ ratio is important. I honestly think I've had more fun with things like Gorkamorka and Mordheim which were lots of fun for the cost involved. Certainly the case, they have gone further and further away from the concept of having fun with a good game and a small number of figures to making the armies as big as possible requiring many more figures. Yet they've slimmed down the regiment boxes so that you have to buy everything piecemeal at great cost. The old regiment boxes aren't even regiment boxes any more, 10 imperial guard, 10 orcs. You need heaps of these, these boxes are pointless. Obviously GW want to make more money; increasing prices or encouraging people to invest in bigger armies and thus make more purchases both seem sensible strategies. But applying both tactics at the same time and to a rather extreme extent is asking rather a lot - expecting people not only to buy many more figures but pay much more per figure.
4010
Post by: Delephont
Sure, the economy plays a part in the pricing of GW products, but it is interesting to note, not only the “gentle” price rise, but also the conscious reduction in what you get for your money.
In contrast there seems to be a general rise in recognition of these economic factors from other gaming companies, who either produce “lower end” miniatures that still require horde armies, but at a lower cost (like Mantic) or companies like Corvus belli, who make super high end miniatures at a high cost per model, yet you need much fewer of them to play the game, MERCS is the same.
It seems as though GW has painted itself into a corner of their own making. Right now GW are charging for a basic plastic miniature not far off what you’d pay for a high end miniature from Corvus Belli, Studio McVey, MERCS or Hassellfree, yet look at the design and quality of the miniature you’d be buying?!? add to that the fact that you need so many of them to play a game and you have a recipe for disaster!
9243
Post by: Johnynoi
My spending habits have changed from buying everything that looks cool, to just things I really need for the army that i'm working on. Less unopened boxes lying around the house etc. I still like going down to my local GW and buying over the counter when I need to rather than ebay/internet sales though. Maybe thats just my impatience waiting on stuff!
5269
Post by: lord_blackfang
NAVARRO wrote:I disagree with you, these are not pieces of art and just fancy gaming tokens for you to paint... so rather prefer to buy based on material costs ( wich are quite diferent depending on the size of metal miniatures) than on subjective notions of art... because if you go there the prices will skyrocket...
Okay, let's go with fancy gaming tokens. It seems unfair to me that fancy gaming tokens of fat people cost more than fancy gaming tokens of skinny people, even if they're the same in game terms.
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
lord_blackfang wrote:NAVARRO wrote:I disagree with you, these are not pieces of art and just fancy gaming tokens for you to paint... so rather prefer to buy based on material costs ( wich are quite diferent depending on the size of metal miniatures) than on subjective notions of art... because if you go there the prices will skyrocket...
Okay, let's go with fancy gaming tokens. It seems unfair to me that fancy gaming tokens of fat people cost more than fancy gaming tokens of skinny people, even if they're the same in game terms.
So it seems fair to you a 1 kg fat mamouth costs you the same a 1gram skinny ant just because as you say "they do the same" thing gamewise? That makes no sense mate.
14291
Post by: kill dem stunties
Yea, gw is started to get a bit ridiculous, i can see 100$ landraiders within 3 years at the rate they increase their prices.
As for myself, i'm friends with an flgs owner from a state i moved out of, so i get 20% off, free shipping and no sales tax as he has no operational presence in my state. Taking the shipping and tax into account its almost 40% off retail.
1018
Post by: Achilles
Hey Delephont, I don't want to pick an argument but I feel like your comment may not be entirely factual. I play ALL the games you mentioned (as can be seen on my Blog or various Skirmish game threads here on Dakka). Requiring less models to play doesn't necessarily mean you spend less money getting into that game. I'll base this all on The Warstore so as to show spending with standard internet discount rates (which, BTW, I didn't pay... I buy most everything brick and mortar).
Here's an example of me getting into the following games in a similar fashion to buying a GW Starter Set ($90, typically 30-90 models for two sides, rules and stats for all therein), except I only get one side so I have to hope someone else comes along that has an army.;
MERCs;
Rulebook (there are no model stats in here, Cards MUST be purchased separately) - $28
CCC Cards - $7
All five CCC figs (you need all five to play) - $40
$75 - 1 Book, 8 Cards and 5 non-customizable metal models. If I want to know what the rules for the three other factions are that will cost me an additional $21 for their card sets.
Infinity - Caveate; the rules are free online for this game, but I'm still including the Rulebook to show a luddites cost...
Infinity 2nd Ed Rulebook; $40
Human Sphere Rulebook (for the remaining model stats); $40
Pan Oc Aciemento Starter Box (6 Figs); $38
Peacemaker Armbot (2 figs ); $28
This is a very small Pan Oc force (<200pts). Total cost is $146 for 2 Rulebooks and 8 figures (one on a 40mm base). I could cut it down to $66 by having all my rules electronically and only have 8 non customizable metal figures.
Malifaux -
Malifaux 1st Edition Rulebook; $28
Fate Deck; $6
Ortega Starter Set; $31
So I've got a fairly small 25 Soulstone Guild force of six Family models for $65, plus a rulebook and the deck of cards needed to play.
It should be noted I will have to pay shipping on all of this as well in order to get my 20% off... which will add cost.
Mantic is an exception to the rule, but they require a similar total number of figures to a Warhammer game as their 'standard game size'. At roughly a dollar a fig that certainly does put them on the right side of affordable! Their character figures are roughly 5 dollars a piece in metal (usually $20 for four).
My roundabout point is that comparing companies like CB or MERCs (or Wyrd or DP9, etc) to 'main market' miniature lines is not really going to work. Those companies tend to produce 100% non-customizable metal lines (with resin occasionally), but charging $8-10 per figure on average. GW tends to charge in the $4-5 per figure range for customizable plastics in individual boxes, sometimes lower (Battalions, Brigades and starter sets come in around $1-3 per figure). Kings of War charges roughly $1 per figure for what are arguably comparable but smaller scale infantry in a similar genre. Before going TU Wargames Factory tried to do the same.
Not trying to pick a fight; but as an addictive personality Polygamerist I know what I've spent on the dozens of games I play. In each case it tends to be a similar amount for a 'playable' game. Whether that nets me 6 figures or 80 figures depends upon the production capacity and production capital of the company in questions. Small basement-miniature companies NEED to charge premium prices in order to stay ahead of their production costs that are inflated by low volume and outsourcing. Bigger companies that own their own infrastructure can charge less by using different materials and owning their own manufacturing.
So there it is; my 0.02.
35710
Post by: Talarn Blackshard
I guess for me it's just part of the hobby, as long as I have the spare funds I will probably continue to buy, but I do mostly buy now from 2nd hand locations... there isn't really a close by gaming store. Sure there are 2-3 within 30mins to an hour, but until I find a fulltime job (contracting now) my budget isn't as big as it might be.
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
Delephont wrote:It seems as though GW has painted itself into a corner of their own making. Right now GW are charging for a basic plastic miniature not far off what you’d pay for a high end miniature from Corvus Belli, Studio McVey, MERCS or Hassellfree, yet look at the design and quality of the miniature you’d be buying?!? add to that the fact that you need so many of them to play a game and you have a recipe for disaster!
Totally agree and the harder it is to get in this silly hobby of ours the less newcomers will just try it out and give it a shot.
GW lacks the vision to lure people to small skirmish games and makes it their priority to just lure to the huge battles with lots of models... Its a choice but its going to cost them lots of newcommers and middle class parents with kids with not that much income... one thing is a couple hundred and have all you need for any competitive game and keep your kid painting some minis another diferent story is to spend triple that.
9892
Post by: Flashman
Agreed, it was games like Heroquest that got me into Warhammer and my mini collections grew from there.
5269
Post by: lord_blackfang
NAVARRO wrote:So it seems fair to you a 1 kg fat mamouth costs you the same a 1gram skinny ant just because as you say "they do the same" thing gamewise? That makes no sense mate.
Why not? I wouldn't buy a more expensive hat in World of Warcraft just because it had more pixels in it, either. I wouldn't pay more for a heavier car with the same performance, either. You get the idea... There's no reason why the end customer should be at all concerned with the amount of material used unless you plan to melt the thing down. What matters is performance. And looks, but you already discounted that, so no falling back to "a mammoth is cooler than an ant."
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
Achilles wrote:Snip
So there it is; my 0.02.
Mate comparing metal blisters model cost with plastic sprues is comparing apple and oranges... now try to look at GW metals and you will see that the price is in fact higher if you compare blister metal models VS blister metal models... And GW metals also dont have options... Mantic is the exception because you are comparing plastic vs plastic and thats more clearer to see the diferences
Just checked corvus belli store in spain vs GW spain and the price gap its funny. 7.75 euros for one 28mm minis on CB and a fat 11.50 euros for say a blister of a 28mm brettonian champ... Both with no options, both metals but both with a completly diferent quality... I think that was Delephont point?
735
Post by: JOHIRA
It's weird how when these threads come up on Dakka they always presume the tipping point hasn't already happened.
At least for the GW part of the hobby, I'm already past that point. I used to have grand plans for a big ole' beastman army, but now I'll probably finish what I have and then put them in a box somewhere. It's not that I can't afford GW. I can. It's just that I don't feel like what I'm getting is worth what I'm paying, so I'm choosier. If I'm being choosy, I am not buying much, so I don't feel much pressure to finish what I have. If I don't finish what I have, I don't feel excited about buying new. It becomes a vicious cycle of apathy.
I'll probably here soon just start buying minis from smaller companies that I think present an interesting artistic challenge and maybe a game like Battletech or Infinity and basically be done with GW.
21196
Post by: agnosto
shealyr wrote:One of the great things about it is that an army is essentially a one-time expense. Once you buy a model, you can use it for years and years, with the only real expenses being a new codex/army book, and a few new models each edition.
Tell my poor chaos dwarf army that.
And no, an Indie GT rulebook doesn't cut it.
Johira: It's weird how when these threads come up on Dakka they always presume the tipping point hasn't already happened.
At least for the GW part of the hobby, I'm already past that point. I used to have grand plans for a big ole' beastman army, but now I'll probably finish what I have and then put them in a box somewhere. It's not that I can't afford GW. I can. It's just that I don't feel like what I'm getting is worth what I'm paying, so I'm choosier. If I'm being choosy, I am not buying much, so I don't feel much pressure to finish what I have. If I don't finish what I have, I don't feel excited about buying new. It becomes a vicious cycle of apathy.
I'll probably here soon just start buying minis from smaller companies that I think present an interesting artistic challenge and maybe a game like Battletech or Infinity and basically be done with GW.
And that's kind of where I'm at now as well. I'll finish my Ogre army and then have no plans to buy anything else. For me it's mainly perceived over real value; GW overstepped real value a long time ago and more recently my perceived value of the product was left behind. If I lived in a game store, I'd still be buying but since my life involves more than spending hour upon hour in a game store....uh, no. My 2 visits to a FLGS per month to play 1 game are not quite reason enough to sink the equivalent of new guttering for the house into something that sees so little use.
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
lord_blackfang wrote:NAVARRO wrote:So it seems fair to you a 1 kg fat mamouth costs you the same a 1gram skinny ant just because as you say "they do the same" thing gamewise? That makes no sense mate.
Why not? I wouldn't buy a more expensive hat in World of Warcraft just because it had more pixels in it, either. I wouldn't pay more for a heavier car with the same performance, either. You get the idea... There's no reason why the end customer should be at all concerned with the amount of material used unless you plan to melt the thing down. What matters is performance. And looks, but you already discounted that, so no falling back to "a mammoth is cooler than an ant."
Because it costs a lot more money to cast a big metal mini rather then a small mini... Some bigger miniatures can even fill a full mould disc... so for each spin you only get one mini X while some small minis can be up to 8 or so per disc meaning... you get 8X more minis... The casting in metal is good for small things but once it gets to determined size its better check other materials... THats why it makes sense to cost more...
So makes no sense to say the materials/ cast etc are not a justifiable part of production costs and that they determine final retail prices... This is not magic the gathering cards or videogames this is actually 2 completly diferent sized objects with diferent production costs.
26531
Post by: VikingScott
To be honest I'm moving more towards the skirmish/smaller armies.
Skirmish means every mini gets some special detail to it and means that with the extra attention looks better.
Smaller armies means less money spent but I still play and enjoy.
I'm not going to increase my main armies any more and am going to get rid of others.
958
Post by: mikhaila
Is it that time of month again?)
The "When will we all quit the hobby?" posts seem to appear like clockwork.
And to sidestep the main question, being in the hobby is not necessarily connected to what you spend. I'm off to auction off about 8k in used miniatures later today. A lot of people will grab bargains, and the people that dumped stuff will grab free stuff off the shelves. That's a lot of hobby going on.)
5269
Post by: lord_blackfang
NAVARRO wrote:Because it costs a lot more money to cast a big metal mini rather then a small mini... Some bigger miniatures can even fill a full mould disc... so for each spin you only get one mini X while some small minis can be up to 8 or so per disc meaning... you get 8X more minis... The casting in metal is good for small things but once it gets to determined size its better check other materials... THats why it makes sense to cost more...
Not the customer's problem. If you want me to buy a mini for 8x the cost of another mini, make it 8x better and/or 8x cooler. I'm not paying for extra pewter just for the sake of extra pewter.
24784
Post by: Mr Proudhoof
I would be happy if GW released static plastic miniature box sets (like the ones you get in the boxed games). They could be sold cheaper than mulit-part and allow you to fill up big units without going into the red.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
Mr Proudhoof wrote:I would be happy if GW released static plastic miniature box sets (like the ones you get in the boxed games). They could be sold cheaper than mulit-part and allow you to fill up big units without going into the red.
You do know they have those for the Imperial Guard, Eldar, Space Marines, Tyranids, and Orks yeah?
$8.25 for 4-5 monopose models.
They did it for the Sea Guard from the Island of Blood boxed set too...except those are $16.75 for a frame and only available directly from GW.
21196
Post by: agnosto
Mr Proudhoof wrote:I would be happy if GW released static plastic miniature box sets (like the ones you get in the boxed games). They could be sold cheaper than mulit-part and allow you to fill up big units without going into the red.
Isn't that what they did with Assault on Black Reach?
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
lord_blackfang wrote:NAVARRO wrote:Because it costs a lot more money to cast a big metal mini rather then a small mini... Some bigger miniatures can even fill a full mould disc... so for each spin you only get one mini X while some small minis can be up to 8 or so per disc meaning... you get 8X more minis... The casting in metal is good for small things but once it gets to determined size its better check other materials... THats why it makes sense to cost more...
Not the customer's problem. If you want me to buy a mini for 8x the cost of another mini, make it 8x better and/or 8x cooler. I'm not paying for extra pewter just for the sake of extra pewter.
Cooler is subjective while the costs of producing something is not... Unless its a self promoting product or samples or charity you are paying for the prices of production so yeah its a Customer problem.
I fail to understand your reasoning mate.
9892
Post by: Flashman
agnosto wrote:Mr Proudhoof wrote:I would be happy if GW released static plastic miniature box sets (like the ones you get in the boxed games). They could be sold cheaper than mulit-part and allow you to fill up big units without going into the red.
Isn't that what they did with Assault on Black Reach?
I think he means like the ones they used to do for Fantasy (see below), though for me this would be step backwards for GW
5269
Post by: lord_blackfang
NAVARRO wrote:I fail to understand your reasoning mate.
Two identical miniatures. One is solid, one is hollow.
My position is that the customer shouldn't have to pay for the extra material in the solid miniature because it is completely irrelevant to him whether the miniature is hollow or not.
I dearly hope you can now understand my reasoning, because I can't explain my position any more clearly. Whether you agree or not is your choice. I'm done.
1018
Post by: Achilles
NAVARRO wrote:Achilles wrote:Snip
So there it is; my 0.02.
Mate comparing metal blisters model cost with plastic sprues is comparing apple and oranges... now try to look at GW metals and you will see that the price is in fact higher if you compare blister metal models VS blister metal models... And GW metals also dont have options... Mantic is the exception because you are comparing plastic vs plastic and thats more clearer to see the diferences
Just checked corvus belli store in spain vs GW spain and the price gap its funny. 7.75 euros for one 28mm minis on CB and a fat 11.50 euros for say a blister of a 28mm brettonian champ... Both with no options, both metals but both with a completly diferent quality... I think that was Delephont point?
I was comparing base cost to play the game (which doesn't seem to change).
The point I was making is that skirmish games cost overall the same to play in the end as the mass combat games. I've spent over 400 dollars on MERCs overall. I've got twenty metal figures, a rulebook and four sets of cards. I've spent about $400 on my Blood angels army. I've got about fifty figures, a rulebook and codex. I've spent over $2000 dollars on Infinity. I've got about eighty figures and two Rulebooks. I've spent about $2000 on my Forge World Red Scorpions. I've got about 200 figures and some Rulebooks.
All I'm trying to say is that in my experience the low model count skirmish games cost you as much as the big battle ones do. In the end, it doesn't seem to me to be apples and oranges at all.
4042
Post by: Da Boss
£18.00 for 10 orc boyz is unbelievable.
Roll on Mantic, I say.
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
lord_blackfang wrote:NAVARRO wrote:I fail to understand your reasoning mate.
Two identical miniatures. One is solid, one is hollow.
My position is that the customer shouldn't have to pay for the extra material in the solid miniature because it is completely irrelevant to him whether the miniature is hollow or not.
I dearly hope you can now understand my reasoning, because I can't explain my position any more clearly. Whether you agree or not is your choice. I'm done.
Your example would be more accurate with your past arguments if you said:
The exact same 2 miniature one costs Y and the other costs Y+X
- Makes sense to you if if X means it can fire tunderbolts from its fingertips
- Makes no sense to you if X refers to the actual production costs of the miniature
Also Hollow vs full mini is not a good example because your comparing bad design with good design.
You seem a bit stressed to have a casual talk, chat, argument over this...  Sorry if it somehow disturbs you.
23613
Post by: Stubby
Starting Hell Dorado soon, So cheap man full 200 point army gonna cost around 100 - 120 bucks.
4010
Post by: Delephont
Achilles wrote:Hey Delephont, I don't want to pick an argument but I feel like your comment may not be entirely factual. I play ALL the games you mentioned (as can be seen on my Blog or various Skirmish game threads here on Dakka). Requiring less models to play doesn't necessarily mean you spend less money getting into that game. I'll base this all on The Warstore so as to show spending with standard internet discount rates (which, BTW, I didn't pay... I buy most everything brick and mortar).
Here's an example of me getting into the following games in a similar fashion to buying a GW Starter Set ($90, typically 30-90 models for two sides, rules and stats for all therein), except I only get one side so I have to hope someone else comes along that has an army.;
MERCs;
Rulebook (there are no model stats in here, Cards MUST be purchased separately) - $28
CCC Cards - $7
All five CCC figs (you need all five to play) - $40
$75 - 1 Book, 8 Cards and 5 non-customizable metal models. If I want to know what the rules for the three other factions are that will cost me an additional $21 for their card sets.
Infinity - Caveate; the rules are free online for this game, but I'm still including the Rulebook to show a luddites cost...
Infinity 2nd Ed Rulebook; $40
Human Sphere Rulebook (for the remaining model stats); $40
Pan Oc Aciemento Starter Box (6 Figs); $38
Peacemaker Armbot (2 figs ); $28
This is a very small Pan Oc force (<200pts). Total cost is $146 for 2 Rulebooks and 8 figures (one on a 40mm base). I could cut it down to $66 by having all my rules electronically and only have 8 non customizable metal figures.
Malifaux -
Malifaux 1st Edition Rulebook; $28
Fate Deck; $6
Ortega Starter Set; $31
So I've got a fairly small 25 Soulstone Guild force of six Family models for $65, plus a rulebook and the deck of cards needed to play.
It should be noted I will have to pay shipping on all of this as well in order to get my 20% off... which will add cost.
Mantic is an exception to the rule, but they require a similar total number of figures to a Warhammer game as their 'standard game size'. At roughly a dollar a fig that certainly does put them on the right side of affordable! Their character figures are roughly 5 dollars a piece in metal (usually $20 for four).
My roundabout point is that comparing companies like CB or MERCs (or Wyrd or DP9, etc) to 'main market' miniature lines is not really going to work. Those companies tend to produce 100% non-customizable metal lines (with resin occasionally), but charging $8-10 per figure on average. GW tends to charge in the $4-5 per figure range for customizable plastics in individual boxes, sometimes lower (Battalions, Brigades and starter sets come in around $1-3 per figure). Kings of War charges roughly $1 per figure for what are arguably comparable but smaller scale infantry in a similar genre. Before going TU Wargames Factory tried to do the same.
Not trying to pick a fight; but as an addictive personality Polygamerist I know what I've spent on the dozens of games I play. In each case it tends to be a similar amount for a 'playable' game. Whether that nets me 6 figures or 80 figures depends upon the production capacity and production capital of the company in questions. Small basement-miniature companies NEED to charge premium prices in order to stay ahead of their production costs that are inflated by low volume and outsourcing. Bigger companies that own their own infrastructure can charge less by using different materials and owning their own manufacturing.
So there it is; my 0.02.
Ahh, but there in lies the crunch.....the examples you use above indicate you buying everything you need to play those other games.....if you're disciplined, then those costs could be your only cost, and thats it, enjoy MERCS, Infinity, etc....now the GW comparrison is a Starter box only, can you say "that's it" after buying your starter set? of course not, thats just the beginning isn't it.
Now my point is partly what Navarro pointed out, i.e comparing metal blisters with metal blisters, but also, when you consider the amount of plastic needed to field a "complete" army from GW compared to a metal army from either Infinity, MERCS, etc...then the difference in price becomes a lot more considerable......now I haven't checked these numbers, but, if I need 5 minis from MERCS at £10 each, thats £50! How much of any army for WH40K can I buy for £50?......not much. Hell thats just a bit more than a Landraider.....one vehicle.
1018
Post by: Achilles
But your argument cuts both ways. I just as easily COULD play with a GW starter set forever. Would it have options or be competitive? Not very... But neither will a master and five minions in Malifaux that often only add up to a 20 SS crew (30-35SS being standard).
Likewise I can't teach anyone to play with just a single army. To get a complete starter set equivalent will cost me a lot more money.
8172
Post by: Auxellion
When I started 40k at the end of 4th edition, I thought it was an expensive hobby. At 16, and working part time making terrible money/tips... it took me a good year or more to amass a small 1500 point SM army. Bought up BoM Marine Spures, Ebay'd Unbuilt vehicles, hunted for deals. Ended up spending around 350 USD with Glue, Paint, Models, Books, and so on.
Now that I actually make some money, it doesn't seem that expensive. When I was a kid I didn't pay for car/alcohol/gas/college/girls as much. I still live at home, but the money I do make tends to go to different things. I added up a Mech IG List I wanted to do... it was going to run me around 550 USD... off the warstore.
My Daemons of Chaos army? I still used Ebay/cheap means/conversion to buy models. Ended up running me around the 300 USD even when most of the models I purchased were under half retail.
I'm halfway through college at the moment without student loans (That'll change in another year), but when I move out/finally start teaching I doubt I'd play that much. Once everything is settled and I'm in my late twenties/early thirties and have a stable income/system working I'll be able to blow money. At the moment, I can't really wrap my mind about blowing money I could use for bills or car repairs/upkeep on an army that I then have to blow time building and painting.
As I've gotten older, I seem to have less time to put into the hobby, and the hobby itself is still as expensive. When I was a kid 300$ was a huge investment for an army. Now when an army is 500~$, even with a job that pays well I can't justify the cost. I'll keep the two armies I have and finish painting/working on them and enjoy the every other weekend I can get a few games in.
It's a great hobby, but not all that realistic to college kids/people working around the clock. I can definitely see myself playing more when I'm older. Then again I never factored in kids/wife. Such is life as a Wargamer
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
Achilles wrote:NAVARRO wrote:Achilles wrote:Snip
So there it is; my 0.02.
Mate comparing metal blisters model cost with plastic sprues is comparing apple and oranges... now try to look at GW metals and you will see that the price is in fact higher if you compare blister metal models VS blister metal models... And GW metals also dont have options... Mantic is the exception because you are comparing plastic vs plastic and thats more clearer to see the diferences
Just checked corvus belli store in spain vs GW spain and the price gap its funny. 7.75 euros for one 28mm minis on CB and a fat 11.50 euros for say a blister of a 28mm brettonian champ... Both with no options, both metals but both with a completly diferent quality... I think that was Delephont point?
I was comparing base cost to play the game (which doesn't seem to change).
The point I was making is that skirmish games cost overall the same to play in the end as the mass combat games. I've spent over 400 dollars on MERCs overall. I've got twenty metal figures, a rulebook and four sets of cards. I've spent about $400 on my Blood angels army. I've got about fifty figures, a rulebook and codex. I've spent over $2000 dollars on Infinity. I've got about eighty figures and two Rulebooks. I've spent about $2000 on my Forge World Red Scorpions. I've got about 200 figures and some Rulebooks.
All I'm trying to say is that in my experience the low model count skirmish games cost you as much as the big battle ones do. In the end, it doesn't seem to me to be apples and oranges at all.
 Mate I do know what your talking about since I spend a lot more on my skirmish than on my mass battle games...
But its a diferent "problem" and you only do that because of the fact that to enter one game and buy one faction is a lot cheaper, so you go extra mile and buy ALL factions and pretty much everything.... You could compare that if you BUY ALL ehehe GW armies and minis... going to crunch some numbers after that? or do you need to sell a kidney or two
The thing is for playing a game with average conditions... rules and minis for your faction the skirmish is cheaper... but if you go and buy everything then sure skirmish is a lot more addictive and you end up spending more.
3828
Post by: General Hobbs
Space Marine army, 2000 points, around 500-700 dollars, can play it forever, pretty much.
Night with a hooker.....1000 dollars. 1 hour with a hooker, 250. Weekend with a hooker, 3000. ( Got my stats from news stories about Charlie Sheen.)
Xbox 250. Call of Duty Modern Warfare 55. Xbox account 9 dollars a month. Can play as along as there are players and the system is supported.
I think GW figures are a great hobby investment.
That being said, I used to spend a couple thousand a year. In the past 2 years I've bought......2 vindicators, 3 chimeras, and 80 dollars in bitz from the warstore. 5th Edition is not as much fun for me as 4th was, which was not as much fun as 3rd. I think the rules and codexes, with a few exceptions, were balanced better and the game was alot more fun. But that's just me.
23469
Post by: dayve110
The hobby is already to expensie. I rarely buy anything, new or second hand.
Although im in my early 20's so im not exactly "set" when it comes to finance and along of my friends are living off student loans.
Although we came up with some decent swaps to keep out hobby going.
I have a friends grav tanks that he wasn't uning, in return i'm giving him some land speeders i'm not using.
I also gave away the old BA honour guard (jump imfantry) apothocary to another friend who needed a sang priest and converted another friend a new DP using the spare bits from his kit, a wartrakk and some odd bitz (iron warriors DP).
I've also found a use for kinder eggs.
It's amazing what "new" models you can gather when you put your mind to it. Which is most likely why the swap shop does so well ^.^
27510
Post by: Vrakk
Auxellion wrote:
As I've gotten older, I seem to have less time to put into the hobby, and the hobby itself is still as expensive. When I was a kid 300$ was a huge investment for an army. Now when an army is 500~$, even with a job that pays well I can't justify the cost. I'll keep the two armies I have and finish painting/working on them and enjoy the every other weekend I can get a few games in.
It's a great hobby, but not all that realistic to college kids/people working around the clock. I can definitely see myself playing more when I'm older. Then again I never factored in kids/wife. Such is life as a Wargamer
I'm 35 with a wife and a 10month old. I have one night a week that is game night and the guys come over to play 40k. About once a month I'll pop up to the FLGS on a Sat afternoon to get some games in. For me, dedicating one night a week does not take away from family time - in fact its better for them. I make sure I can get my nerd on and relieve stress. Now the wife wants me to do it because I am a happier person. If playing with little plastic army men is what keeps you from going postal then make sure you dedicate some time to it. When the wife and I first got together I quit all gaming - and became miserable. Life can be tough with its demands, but if you don't have any fun at all it can become crushing.
As far as the money portion, so what, its only money. I am constantly amazed to see people on this site bitch about GW prices - on items that they don't need. Where is the bitching about gas/food/electricity/insurance/interest rates/etc. These are things that are needed, you can't choose to not buy them like you can on GW products. You don't see a family planning on what bills they can pay late to be able to by a storm raven (at least I hope like hell you don't see this!), but you do see it when comparing the power bill and food on the table. If its too expensive then don't play.
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
Vrakk wrote:Auxellion wrote:
As I've gotten older, I seem to have less time to put into the hobby, and the hobby itself is still as expensive. When I was a kid 300$ was a huge investment for an army. Now when an army is 500~$, even with a job that pays well I can't justify the cost. I'll keep the two armies I have and finish painting/working on them and enjoy the every other weekend I can get a few games in.
It's a great hobby, but not all that realistic to college kids/people working around the clock. I can definitely see myself playing more when I'm older. Then again I never factored in kids/wife. Such is life as a Wargamer
I'm 35 with a wife and a 10month old. I have one night a week that is game night and the guys come over to play 40k. About once a month I'll pop up to the FLGS on a Sat afternoon to get some games in. For me, dedicating one night a week does not take away from family time - in fact its better for them. I make sure I can get my nerd on and relieve stress. Now the wife wants me to do it because I am a happier person. If playing with little plastic army men is what keeps you from going postal then make sure you dedicate some time to it. When the wife and I first got together I quit all gaming - and became miserable. Life can be tough with its demands, but if you don't have any fun at all it can become crushing.
As far as the money portion, so what, its only money. I am constantly amazed to see people on this site bitch about GW prices - on items that they don't need. Where is the bitching about gas/food/electricity/insurance/interest rates/etc. These are things that are needed, you can't choose to not buy them like you can on GW products. You don't see a family planning on what bills they can pay late to be able to by a storm raven (at least I hope like hell you don't see this!), but you do see it when comparing the power bill and food on the table. If its too expensive then don't play.
If its too expensive then dont play, yes I agree that its the first advice you should give to someone who is having troubles in financing the hobby but unlike you, I do understand and Im not amazed with the "bitchin"... and reading your personal experience of quiting the hobby and feeling miserable about that and getting back on it , you should to... I mean you had the option to get back to the hobby you love if you wanted but many just dont have that choice anymore and being forced to abandon something they have done for years and loved its bitchin material if you ask me
I know I know its life...
37325
Post by: Adam LongWalker
Back to the OP.
From my point of view, the price of the hobby is getting expensive now.
Hardcore people will continue to purchase the game regardless of their income.
The problem is what about the average person?
They might want to try the hobby and -then- realize that the price is just too high for them and their kids.
GW had an opportunity to keep the AOBR at a reasonable level but they got the "Corporate Stupid" disease.
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
Howard A Treesong wrote:They are already too expensive fro my tastes, I have the very occasional treat from GW like a christmas present. Everything is bought second hand.
There won't be a cut off for most, people will just adjust their purchases accordingly. I don't know what GW's thinking is with repackaging the Orc boyz. Do they expect people will now simply pay almost twice as much and buy two boxes just to get the number of figures they could a month ago? I don't think it will work like that, most people just accept getting less for their money. GW may be some people's crack, but most don't instantly start pouring in substantially more money to keep getting the same fix, they will accept getting less for the same expenditure.
Their pricing makes it difficult to collect swarm armies, it's no wonder space marines are popular.
We'll see in a year's time.
Either the GW pricing strategy will be vindicated by a triumphant return to increased sales volumes and revenue, or they will suffer another year on year decline.
11151
Post by: Dashofpepper
Its already crossed that point for me.
I *am* a hardcore gamer, but the price of the models makes no sense - I don't really get the hobbying portion of the game, I appreciate the gaming portion of the game. So paying $4-5 per plastic model that I have to cut off the sprue myself, assemble myself, paint myself....is obscene. $50 for *maybe* $1 worth of plastic is horrendous.
I either trade for what I want, or get what I want from tournament winnings. I look at the price of these toys, and compare them to the cost of toys you buy at Walmart - the kind that are already painted and assembled, have moving parts, a remote control....and they cost so much less than the sprues of plastic from GW, and that's what does it for me. I hate having to put my own toys together, I just want to play with them.
21499
Post by: Mr. Burning
Kilkrazy wrote:Howard A Treesong wrote:They are already too expensive fro my tastes, I have the very occasional treat from GW like a christmas present. Everything is bought second hand.
There won't be a cut off for most, people will just adjust their purchases accordingly. I don't know what GW's thinking is with repackaging the Orc boyz. Do they expect people will now simply pay almost twice as much and buy two boxes just to get the number of figures they could a month ago? I don't think it will work like that, most people just accept getting less for their money. GW may be some people's crack, but most don't instantly start pouring in substantially more money to keep getting the same fix, they will accept getting less for the same expenditure.
Their pricing makes it difficult to collect swarm armies, it's no wonder space marines are popular.
We'll see in a year's time.
Either the GW pricing strategy will be vindicated by a triumphant return to increased sales volumes and revenue, or they will suffer another year on year decline.
I'll place a bet now, share holders will ask searching questions after a new 40k release year of financials still show a flattening of sales. Expect a new CEO in the next few years as Kirby 'has taken the company as far as he can and leaves a firm foundation for the future'.
3802
Post by: chromedog
It stopped being too expensive for me when I stopped buying at retail prices.
Now, if there's something I want, I'm prepared to wait for up to a year for it to hit 2nd hand markets.
Generally, with the codex release cycle and "new shiny" factor, models get dumped onto that market relatively quickly once the novelty wears off.
I'm paying less than OS rates for product as a result. Good enough for me (and I don't generally buy 2nd hand plastics - just metals).
4042
Post by: Da Boss
Just costed my Orc and Goblin army at todays prices- £620. Holy crap. That is crazy.
A fair chunk of that can be put down to the sheer crazyness of the current core troops pricing.
I was in the shop yesterday looking at kits, and I just couldn't justify any of them to myself. The River Trolls are lovely but I balk at paying over £25 for them. It's not that I can't afford them, they're just not good value for money to me.
11060
Post by: Phototoxin
Well Orkyben has a 40K thread detailing his imperial fists on a budget. I designed a firends SW army for ~£100
But I know for fantasy that It's turned into a block slamming contest... doesn't matter how much you kill as more minis = stubborn! woot!)Again all commercially driven. Older editions were not so much so. I never heard fans asking for this nor, aside from sheer commercialism (read :'greed') can I think of a reason for this.
The fun:cost ratio.. I think that will be the biggest factor. It's probably why they axed necromunda, gorkamorka and mordheim - too much value for money?
40k had 'CHEAP TANKS!' (in pts)
They may pull a warmahordes and gimp everything that's good this edition to make people buy different things.
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
feth my car's worth less than £620.
26
Post by: carmachu
Achilles wrote:But your argument cuts both ways. I just as easily COULD play with a GW starter set forever.
No you couldnt. There's not one single GW player out there that stops at just the starter said. Ever.
If there is, show me. But every one gets the starter.....then adds to it.
4042
Post by: Da Boss
The starter sets are good value if you play the armies in them.
My dwarves and O&G both benefited from BFSP, and my orcs did well out of the 6th edition starter.
But if you don't play a starter army, you're easily looking at upwards of £300 to get a "full" army.
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
You could buy a bag of marbles and play forever.
A realistic minimum set up for GW is rules, your own codex, and maybe 1,750 or 2,000 points.
9217
Post by: KingCracker
I buy my minis/models slowly over time. But even still, Ive been seeing things lately that just make me think "there is no way in hell I would pay that" I also have found myself looking at other companies for counts as or to build off of. I can tell you, Im never EVER going to buy GW fantasy line thats for sure. Mantics got some pretty nice looking minis, and that new Fantasy game they came out with not too long ago seems like the prices are just right and Ive heard the game is pretty good. I think GW will eventually price themselves out of their own market for sure.
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
Da Boss wrote:Just costed my Orc and Goblin army at todays prices- £620. Holy crap. That is crazy.
.
I'm afraid to do the math for my collection, I would probably sell it all and buy a vacations house
4042
Post by: Da Boss
Mantic have certainly come out with their orc line at the right time.
£25 for 30 Mantic orcs or £54 for 30 GW orcs.
There is a difference in quality, but honestly, it's not worth DOUBLE the cost. At least not to me!
25539
Post by: EagleArk
Out of interest,, how do the mantic dwarves compare to GW dwarves in size? The models are nice, and compared to gw, cheap!
Look at it this way, in gw you can get 40 orks for £72, at mantic you can get 100 orks for £75, the price difference is immense!
4042
Post by: Da Boss
The mantic dwarves are slightly taller and broader than the current GW ones. The difference isn't that huge- I use a lot of older dwarves in my army, so there's plenty of size variation anyway (many of the older dwarves have much larger heads and hands, and some are shorter while others are a bit taller).
They would definitely fit into WFB as an entire army, and would fit into a GW army for anyone but a nitpicker.
8932
Post by: Lanrak
Hi all.
The GW hobby ( tm) priced me out years ago.
As I have found much better value for money elsewhere, they could been seen as doing a favor to the gaming community in general.
GW plc spends over half its pre tax profits on B&M stores recruiting new gamers.
But spends so little trying to retain customers ,most of the long term gamers move to other companies .
(Mantic are absolutly ace IMO.  )
TTFN
3802
Post by: chromedog
I don't play fantasy, so that's a cost saving there.
I also don't play EVERY 40k army nor want to collect all of the new shiny - so that's the other way.
For example:
While it's a probable cert that GK will be getting the SR in the new codex, I'm scratchbuilding one from plasticard, spare jet turbines and weapons from my bits box.
It will have a front and rear ramp (although both will be glued closed anyway) as well as two side hatches (rhino sized) and a magnetic setup to hold a dreadnought but it will NOT look like the thunderguppy.
34906
Post by: Pacific
Vrakk wrote: If playing with little plastic army men is what keeps you from going postal then make sure you dedicate some time to it.
Then I hope for the people in Charleston that GW products never get even more expensive haha..
As Navarro says, I think the threshold will differ for everyone. Although it's not a very good comparison, I would say look at what has happened in the UK with increasing prices of cigarettes. I used to know a number of people who said, "moment a packet reaches 5 pounds, I will quit". So, that time came and went (and then some, IIRC!) The point is many of those people didn't quit, but a few of them did. And a hell of a lot less people smoke nowadays, and I'm sure one of the main reasons for that is the prohibitive price. With the price increases and diminishing numbers of miniatures in a set, it's essentially an ever tighter circle that GW is pulling itself into.
I don't think it's correct to think that skirmish games (such as those which have been mentioned) are in anything like the same ballpark of GW stuff in terms of either time or money investment. You may end up spending more if you try and collect several factions, but the point is you can collect an army of your choice (as opposed to being forced into one option by a starter set) for relatively little. I'm starting an Infinity force for that reason. GW choosing to actively ignore this sector of wargaming may well prove to be costly, now that other manufacturers are gaining ground and popularity, and like many have said on here, a good number of us got into the game and the strength of GW's older skirmish systems. That will be an avenue forever denied to them from now on.
34151
Post by: Bakerofish
Walrus wrote:when the money im spending no longer gives me enjoyment from playing the game.
GW can double their prices and people will keep buying if its something they like.
preach it tusk man!
3963
Post by: Fishboy
In response to the OP it is getting close for me. I try to buy my stuff first hand from the LGS to try and keep them in buisness but it is getting harder and harder to do. My fear is that people will stop buying at stores, the stores close, nobody knows or plays the games anymore and GW loses all buisness and sells to the highest bidder.
I see the same CEO stupidity at the company I work for and its insane. The need to drive profits by diminishing the company, product, then driving the cost of the product beyond market value is a temporary fix.
I have seen games like Malifaux become very popular and as soon as there is a national tourny scene for it I may black ball GW altogether for robbing me these last 3 years.
10345
Post by: LunaHound
Since everyone have different threshholds for something been too expensive , it'll come eventually.
In my case i guess i snapped out of it. I used to spend almost 1k per year on miniatures, until recently my friends convinced me to get a PS3.
Then i realized how truly expensive warhammer hobby is compared to video games , or even a new LCD HDTV.
459
Post by: Hellfury
I have been buying GW for quite a long time now. Longer than I wish to admit.
I still do buy GW LotR stuff, but the cost for that range is not really that cheap either nowadays so I have have halted all GW purchases since before their last LotR release, around last february. And before that the spending was pretty sparse too.
GW charge as much as they think their 'price insensitive' consumers are willing to pay. Too bad they are not as 'price insensitive' as GW would have liked.
It appears to me that while there will always be someone who is 'price insensitive' enough to continue buying, there are a rise in numbers that I have seen locally on who are quite unwilling to follow GW's shortsighted marketing department's price structure.
Privateer Press carries most of the weight for my FLGS in terms of miniature wargame sales. Which is kind of a big deal because it has to be one of the biggest if not the biggest GW retailer in MN.
21574
Post by: Mewiththeface
I'll probably stop buying things when I go off to college as I am certain there will be a lack of money.
1018
Post by: Achilles
I don't get the doublethink argument of you MUST always buy more than the minimum for GW games but NEVER have to buy over it for other games. Thats just BS. Every one of us will approach the hobby differerntly.
And to be clear, none of my above cost models were for going crazy and buying everything (outside the infinity/forge world comparison).
24779
Post by: Eilif
To the OP's quesitons. The cutoff for "too expensive" varies. I do agree with those who put a distinciton between the GW hobby and the wider miniature gaming hobby as a whole.
Like some others here, GW priced me out of their hobby "at retail" quite a few years ago. With a few rare exceptions, any GW product I buy is used and at a deep discount and I don't even buy much used GW.
As for the wider miniature gaming hobby, it will likely never be "too expensive" for anyone above the poverty line. There are so many inexpensive games and figures out there that miniature gaming will likely always be within my income.
I'm glad that my 40k armies will always be there (with a bit of tweaking between editions) for me, and I'll add a unit here or there. However, the truth is that GW has effectively priced me out of any of their new armies or games and pushed me into other more affordable miniatures games.
And that turned out to not be a bad thing.
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
Hellfury wrote:Privateer Press carries most of the weight for my FLGS in terms of miniature wargame sales. Which is kind of a big deal because it has to be one of the biggest if not the biggest GW retailer in MN.
Thats a big deal indeed I wonder how GW will manage to keep up the price structure if the major FLGS stop selling their goods and official GW stores are reduced to minimum staff etc... something tells me the Hobbit will have a big role for GW future.
All of those that have been here for some time know there is always going to be people jumping off, for tons of diferent reasons, but this time theres something diferent happening... Some flags are shifting to other companies goods and GW is not the main product to some of those anymore?... maybe people now have to think better on were to spend money due to the economic stress we are living, maybe competition is much more stronger, better and available everywere... maybe GW just outpriced themselves from their mainstream costumers... All in all I think the overall Hobby has never been this good and diverse and if thats a cause of GW prices then its a positive thing this GW fiasco
8172
Post by: Auxellion
NAVARRO wrote:Vrakk wrote:Auxellion wrote:
As I've gotten older, I seem to have less time to put into the hobby, and the hobby itself is still as expensive. When I was a kid 300$ was a huge investment for an army. Now when an army is 500~$, even with a job that pays well I can't justify the cost. I'll keep the two armies I have and finish painting/working on them and enjoy the every other weekend I can get a few games in.
It's a great hobby, but not all that realistic to college kids/people working around the clock. I can definitely see myself playing more when I'm older. Then again I never factored in kids/wife. Such is life as a Wargamer
I'm 35 with a wife and a 10month old. I have one night a week that is game night and the guys come over to play 40k. About once a month I'll pop up to the FLGS on a Sat afternoon to get some games in. For me, dedicating one night a week does not take away from family time - in fact its better for them. I make sure I can get my nerd on and relieve stress. Now the wife wants me to do it because I am a happier person. If playing with little plastic army men is what keeps you from going postal then make sure you dedicate some time to it. When the wife and I first got together I quit all gaming - and became miserable. Life can be tough with its demands, but if you don't have any fun at all it can become crushing.
As far as the money portion, so what, its only money. I am constantly amazed to see people on this site bitch about GW prices - on items that they don't need. Where is the bitching about gas/food/electricity/insurance/interest rates/etc. These are things that are needed, you can't choose to not buy them like you can on GW products. You don't see a family planning on what bills they can pay late to be able to by a storm raven (at least I hope like hell you don't see this!), but you do see it when comparing the power bill and food on the table. If its too expensive then don't play.
If its too expensive then dont play, yes I agree that its the first advice you should give to someone who is having troubles in financing the hobby but unlike you, I do understand and Im not amazed with the "bitchin"... and reading your personal experience of quiting the hobby and feeling miserable about that and getting back on it , you should to... I mean you had the option to get back to the hobby you love if you wanted but many just dont have that choice anymore and being forced to abandon something they have done for years and loved its bitchin material if you ask me
I know I know its life...
I'm not saying I'm leaving the hobby by any means, I'm just not buying anything new in the coming months/years. I have my Tyranids, and my heavily converted/cheap DoC army which I've been collecting for a year or more.
The message/idea I meant to give was more along the lines of "Sure I'd want to start Guard, or another army. The game/hobby is great! Is it possible in terms of $$$? Not realistically at the moment."
No one should ever quit the hobby because of money (unless you actually are in deep financial trouble). Work with what you have. Don't dump your old models on Ebay. Keep them, spend some time painting or repainting them. Taking breaks from GW/Wargaming helps. I'm pretty much doing what dayve110 said. Working with what I have/trading
10414
Post by: Big P
My wargaming hobby is dirt cheap for the enjoyment I get out of it.
At around .50p a figure, its cheap and I have armies that are 15 years old that are still 'valid' under the rules I play... Though its hard for a WW2 German to become outdated.
But my hobby dont involve any GW games...
So maybe you just need to look at the entire hobby for inspiration rather than 'The GW Hobby'.
Big world of gaming goodness out there... and some of it is cheap!
Of course the stuff might be cheap... But not in the quantities I buy...
6356
Post by: Ghidorah
I think it was getting too expensive back in 2000-ish when I first heard this question asked on Dakka. It's been too expensive everytime it has been asked since then. Yet, people still pay and they always will.
Fact.
I basically stopped buying minis (mostly because I have all I need at the moment). I will buy the occasional re-sculpt that I love, like the new Wraithlord, but that's about it. However, I still build terrain and buy materials for doing so. I am still spending money on the hobby, even with miniatures, but GW gets a teeny, tiny drop in the bucket of it.
King Ghidorah
131
Post by: malfred
General Hobbs wrote:
Night with a hooker.....1000 dollars. 1 hour with a hooker, 250. Weekend with a hooker, 3000. ( Got my stats from news stories about Charlie Sheen.)
Sure, sure.
7680
Post by: oni
I've heavily reduced my model purchasing.
I went wild buying stuff when Imperial Guard and Planetstrike dropped and then again when the Ork and Space Marine mega-force were released. There was a lot of spending in a short period of time, but then prices went up and up and up again. So I laid low and didn't buy a thing for a very long time. My last purchase was when The Warstore had its Black Friday sale.
Point is; while I've not reached my breaking point, I'm dangerously close.
As for when GW will price themselves out of the market... I don't really ever see that happening.
32545
Post by: Element206
yeah, the prices are insane. If it wasnt for ebay I wouldnt have much of an army  . I only buy retail if im given a gift card. People can judge me however they choose (because I know some of you out there despise those of us who buy from cheaper places on the internet because your worried that its going to put GW out of business, please) but buying from alternative sources is as capitalist as the ingratuitous prices that GW tries to get people to pay.
34906
Post by: Pacific
That's very true. Although GW, since it's transformation into a publicly owned company, has been characterised by a gradual turning of the screws where $ is seen as the be-all and end-all and to the point where the rule mechanics are becoming just a slave to selling of modelling kits.
Out of interest, looking on the GW site, there was a page on 'starting a new O&G army'. Out of curiosity, I opened it and had a look at what it had to say, as though I was a new customer.
So, first page is a pretty awe-inspiring picture of an O&G army. Looking at it makes me want to buy an O&G army (no sarcasm, at least not yet!  )
OK, I turn the page; there is a sample army by someone called Jim Sowter. The first line reads,
"I don't think you can go wrong with Orc Boyz, so my army is built around three large units of them. They're tough, relatively hitty and pretty cheap, which means I can have loads!"
Sounds great! Looking at the army list, I see a total of 110 Orc boyz, as well as large unit of Night Goblins, some artillery, a giant and shaman amongst other items.
I then go to the store, take a look at the price and immediately direct my browser towards Gamespot.com to see what new Xbox games are coming out next week, as I realise that for just those core orc units alone, I would be looking at paying £198, before any other purchases or hobby tools/paints etc. Yes, these items are available cheaper elsewhere, but remember the website is built to facilitate sales directly, and a new player might not be available or trusting in that they are ordering the same thing as featured on the website.
This is how GW want you to play WFB 8th edition. Yes, all of us know the game can be enjoyed by using less points, but without exception every featured/example army on the website is either crammed full of expensive core units (such as this one) or is 2500-3000pts plus. Yes, price increases are part of life/the economy etc., but they are certainly not relative, and the change of ethos in recent years by GW is not conducive at all towards attracting new players.
The end result is, I know that if I had been a child at this time rather than 20 years ago when I first got into the hobby, I would have looked at the website and then reluctantly moved on to something else, because although I was spellbound by the models, they were simply far too expensive for me to ever be able to afford. And thinking of this situation, and all the enjoyment that modelling/playing has brought me over the years, makes me very sad indeed.
34087
Post by: Requia
oni wrote:I've heavily reduced my model purchasing.
I went wild buying stuff when Imperial Guard and Planetstrike dropped and then again when the Ork and Space Marine mega-force were released. There was a lot of spending in a short period of time, but then prices went up and up and up again. So I laid low and didn't buy a thing for a very long time. My last purchase was when The Warstore had its Black Friday sale.
Point is; while I've not reached my breaking point, I'm dangerously close.
As for when GW will price themselves out of the market... I don't really ever see that happening.
I think it already happened, it's just not a quick process.
320
Post by: Platuan4th
Maybe to reinforce my kids to pick up gaming, I'll do what my parents did: don't buy them a video game system until their senior year of high school(and even then reluctantly, since they bought mine so I could stay all day at their new condo for appliances to be delivered whilst they were at work).
9594
Post by: RiTides
Mantic! At least for fantasy, it's a great alternative.
4042
Post by: Da Boss
Yeah, I can see mantic getting a lot of sales out of orc players.
They're going to reap a lot of profit from GW's pricing folly.
32545
Post by: Element206
Pacific wrote:I then go to the store, take a look at the price and immediately direct my browser towards Gamespot.com to see what new Xbox games are coming out next week, as I realise that for just those core orc units alone, I would be looking at paying £198, before any other purchases or hobby tools/paints etc. Yes, these items are available cheaper elsewhere, but remember the website is built to facilitate sales directly, and a new player might not be available or trusting in that they are ordering the same thing as featured on the website.
This is how GW want you to play WFB 8th edition. Yes, all of us know the game can be enjoyed by using less points, but without exception every featured/example army on the website is either crammed full of expensive core units (such as this one) or is 2500-3000pts plus. Yes, price increases are part of life/the economy etc., but they are certainly not relative, and the change of ethos in recent years by GW is not conducive at all towards attracting new players.
The end result is, I know that if I had been a child at this time rather than 20 years ago when I first got into the hobby, I would have looked at the website and then reluctantly moved on to something else, because although I was spellbound by the models, they were simply far too expensive for me to ever be able to afford. And thinking of this situation, and all the enjoyment that modelling/playing has brought me over the years, makes me very sad indeed.
Very true. Even when I got into this game 10 years ago, it was expensive, but somehow the balance between cost and enjoyment was different. Nowadays, the cost is about the only thing im worried about, considering my disposable income is trying to supplement the inflation of gas and food too! There was something you said that I never gave much thought about, which is the fact that this hobby is in competition not only with other miniature games but with external companies in different markets. It is so much easier...and more convenient for most of us to simply waltz over to the local retail store and buy a new video game. For 60$ you get instantaneous enjoyment, little frustration (though this is contingent on the game  ), and a very important element that all Americans love, its simple and easy. Then again video games are not a hobby. I agree with what you say though. Perhaps GW should have raised the points cost of units in the newest edition of rules instead of scaling them back. Its ridiculous how little $500 will buy you in this hobby.
23469
Post by: dayve110
I was looking through some very old white dwarves a few monthes back and i found a marine list. (hardly surprising)
But this list was 1,500 points.
Converted into the current codex it was pointed at about 1,150.
Points being rolled back has been going on a long time, all the time this has been happening, prices are going up.
Also prices, i guess, are at least 50% higher than what i remember as a child.
Assuming i spent £200 to get my 1,500 army, i'd be left with 1,150 in todays world. Meaning i'd have to buy another 350 points worth, but at 50% higher prices.
This leaves me spending a further £90 to get my army up to scratch.
If i were to buy a new army based on what i had origionally i'd need to spend £390 (almost double)
Which is frankly, ridiculous, which may also apply to my math (someone check that for me i've been drinking)
4042
Post by: Da Boss
The price increase on orc boys and the lack of what I see as value in the orc book has me thinking like nothing so far about really scaling back on GW. I was planning a brettonian army for later in the year, but I dunno...
Is it just gonna be a case of drastically expensive Bretts, in three or four years time? :-|
I want a project, but now, Mantic and other suppliers are looking like a better option for that project.
I'll see how I go. If my Mantic Skeletons are fun to paint, I might take the plunge. Looking at those greatcoats, too.
33661
Post by: Mad4Minis
Define "the hobby". If you mean GW, well sales trends show most people are saying now is too expensive. Other game systems...dunno, many seem to be doing well.
34906
Post by: Pacific
I agree, I think the gamesplayers are still there (perhaps more now than ever), but GW's share of that market is diminishing as they alienate their fans through the latest batch of price increases which I think, in the case of the orc boyz, is frankly insulting.
If the hobby was more mainstream, you just know that Family Guy would do a sketch of the GW boardroom where they are discussing the price increases: "Come on, they won't really keep on buying it will they, if we do this?" While the other members of the board pound their fists on the table (which laughing) chanting, "Do it! Do it!"
33344
Post by: Deeks2010
Mad4Minis wrote:Define "the hobby". If you mean GW, well sales trends show most people are saying now is too expensive. Other game systems...dunno, many seem to be doing well.
Sorry my original post I applied the term "the Hobby" meant playing the game, modelling and painting your figures, all different things I know but overall all aspects of the hobby are affected by price.
My son and I are people starting out in the world of 40k and like many of you have siad, starter boxes where fine, if you wanted to build the armies included in it, but we didnt, I kept the marines and my son wanted necrons, so the orks were sold to help fund the start of a necron army, but with the cost of starting an army that isn't included in the starter set is madness, I can honestly say that with the exception of a monolith he got bought for xmas, not one item in his entire2800 point army were bought from GW.
Its great saying the starter sets are value for money, but you dont just buy the starter set, heck you dont even get a tube of glue in it, our starter set cost us over a £100.00 if you facter in some paint, glue, spray paint, brushes, some tools and a codex.
Obviously I now know I could of bought all those things cheaper elsewhere, but at the time standing in the store we just jumped in feet first. and bam £100.00 plus gone.
Like many of the people that have posted on this thread, I now buy very little directly from GW, with the exception of xmas/birthday pressies of gift cards etc, and the odd pot of paint I need, but only when im passing the store. All of my purchases are from either discount webstores or ebay.
As a disabled father of 3 it is impossible to buy direct from GW, we simply cant afford it, but as both my son and I get so much from playing and modelling together, and my two younger children also enjoy getting involved with the whole warhammer 40k world, I am sticking with it. I just cant help but feel GW have missed the boat on numerous occasions to boost interest in the 40k world, and therefore increase sales, which would possibly mean less dramatic price hikes over the past few years.
Ellis
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
Deeks2010 wrote: snip...As a disabled father of 3 it is impossible to buy direct from GW, we simply cant afford it, but as both my son and I get so much from playing and modelling together, and my two younger children also enjoy getting involved with the whole warhammer 40k world, I am sticking with it. I just cant help but feel GW have missed the boat on numerous occasions to boost interest in the 40k world, and therefore increase sales, which would possibly mean less dramatic price hikes over the past few years.
Ellis
May I sugest you buy online and pick a diferent company? There are interesting skirmishes and miniature for you and your kids to explore outhere... you can also dig for diferent set of rules and use the miniatures you already have.
For example check "Songs of blades and heroes" a simple rule setting for fantasy skirmish that you can use any mini from any company to represent your warband... they also have scifi rulesets and all is quite cheap. If you have a mini familly club for you and your kids to have fun togheter theres really no need to be stuck with GW rules mate
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
I second Navarro's suggestion.
Apart from the SF and Fantasy games, there is a whole range of historical games for different periods, genres and scales.
Most of them are surprisingly cheap compared to and can also be educational as they may lead players to investigate the real history behind the game army.
6145
Post by: Gitkikka
When will it be too expensive?
About five years ago.
32545
Post by: Element206
Da Boss wrote:The price increase on orc boys and the lack of what I see as value in the orc book has me thinking like nothing so far about really scaling back on GW...
Unfortunately this is my exact reasoning for deciding to not collect Orks, Tyranids or any other horde army :( I would love to paint/play something I have never tried before, but im not willing to commit to the price of those army's. Seriously, buying 1 box of hormagaunts at 25$ equates to what...40 pts of characters? Ridiculous
32959
Post by: crimsonmicc
really there is so many people out there who have a pile of minis they dont care about its easy to get a good deal. Just last week i picked up about 30 guardians/dire avengers and a Viper for $12 dollars.
It does take a bit more effort to buy of craigslist or a similar site but its well worth it if you want lots of little plastic men.
15248
Post by: Eldar Own
shealyr wrote:One of the great things about it is that an army is essentially a one-time expense. Once you buy a model, you can use it for years and years, with the only real expenses being a new codex/army book, and a few new models each edition. Once you're established in it, assuming you don't go new-army-crazy, it really isn't all that expensive.
Of course, this is just for playing. If you buy models to paint, you should probably be looking at ranges outside of GW...
This is a good point. The fact im often out of money is purely because i'm collecting too many armies, that's why i'm trying to get some at the affectionatly-named stand still point. If i think about it, if i'd stuck with my eldar army, and perhaps one other, i'd have spent a hell of a lot less, and i'd still get some games in.
31079
Post by: warspawned
I guess it's all relative to your own financial situation and what you want out of the hobby in general. GW/ 40k wise if you get the bug bad and start collecting entire Companies of Marines, then, sure, it's expensive. If you're, like me, more of a casual player who prefers painting/modelling then it can be relatively good value. To be honest I'd be more than happy with 1,000-1,500 points of every army at a cost of £100-350 per army, rather than 10,000pts + of a single army. I think a lot of people equate costs to points, as that's what determines how many £££'s your army eventually costs. However I view costs more with both points and modelling/painting/gaming time in mind, which eases the pain
A Storm Raven, for example is £41. Now that's a lot of money - but it's also a lot of model. If you went to town on it that's easily between 10-30 hours + modelling time. So, per hour, that's cheap modelling, not to mention the 20% off you can get from most online retailers and the amount of gaming time you may get out of it.
A new computer game, if you just HAD to buy it on release, would cost you between £30-50 - perhaps with about 8-16 hrs gameplay. And that's not to mention the people who spend £100+ on a pair of trainers or jeans & handbags etc or go out and spend that much on drinks every weekend, not being able to recolect their good time. So money/time/satisfaction wise I guess wargaming's cheap. Most of us could probably afford to spend £25-50 a month, which is good for a unit/s or a large kit. So in 3-6 months we could have a new army, with the time (maybe) to paint it in between purchases. So you could get 2-4 armies a year with all the bargains on eBay and discounts from online retailers limiting the cost considerably. The danger is you may feel you HAVE to buy every possible unit, but you don't. Remember a game of 40k can be played with just a single HQ and 2-3 units, and some of my most enjoyable games have been under 1,000pts.
As others have said there are plenty of alternatives to GW, although I'd wager GW's background, if not models, is the best Fantasy/Sci-fi yet written, even if their rules aren't
36883
Post by: Misguidance
In a world where new computer games (which can be played completely maybe 2-3 times before all options are exhausted, or played repetitively and ineffectually over the 'net) can cost between £30-£50, I think spending £25 on a box of models that will take me month to paint, and that I can then use an infiniate number of times to play against real live friends, is a pretty cheap option.
For that same £25 I could see maybe 3 films at the cinema (2 if I buy popcorn), which is only 3 hours worth of fun. I could possibly get a 1 month gym membership, or an hour's paintballing, or 2-3 new release DVDs (depending on where I buy.) None of these things will consume as much time or be as entertaining as painting 10 models. And since GW provide a place for me to paint, it makes it even better value. Heck, I have made a lot of friends sitting in my local GW, and the fact that I can move anywhere in the country, take my models into another GW, and meet new people... well, that's pretty awesome too.
For me, personally, that makes it worth the cost.
I'm not going to say that everyone has to share my view on this- just that I think people who spend a lot of time on their models probably get a better deal than those who don't paint and only play.
(And as for it being more expensive now- when I first got into the game a blister of 3 spearmen cost £3.50. So that was *still* £35 per unit of 10- and plastic kits either didn't exist or looked pathetically horrible! So yeah- I'll take my £18 box for 16, please- they look good, and I can carry them around en masse without having to be built like a pro wrestler...)
37729
Post by: AresX8
Trust me when I say this:
At least it's not as expensive as MTG on a competitive level (where the game is worth a damn).
I mean, just look at these deck costs:
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=794494
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=793620
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=793626
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=793633
And keep in mind those decks become illegal (meaning you can't use them in a tournament) every two years by October or so. I used to be a diehard MTG player, then I switched to 40k because of how damned expensive MTG is compared to 40k. With 40k, I can spend the amount in deck #1 to build almost 3 1500 point painted armies WITH extra bitz for wargear. I'd take that anyday over pieces of cardboard.
131
Post by: malfred
Ares:
I haven't looked at those decks and I'm not familiar with what's current, but
do some of those decks have overlap? Meaning, could you possibly own three
or four of those decks without paying the full price on all three or four decks?
Or are each of those decks self-contained?
34087
Post by: Requia
While I haven't played competitively in ~17 years, I've placed in tournaments with 50$ decks (admittedly, I could never have done that if I hadn't had a large stockpile of cards to work from).
More importantly, if you just want to play in general, you can pick up a 10$ starter deck and play out of the box.
37729
Post by: AresX8
malfred wrote:Ares:
I haven't looked at those decks and I'm not familiar with what's current, but
do some of those decks have overlap? Meaning, could you possibly own three
or four of those decks without paying the full price on all three or four decks?
Or are each of those decks self-contained?
Each deck is it's own thing, but some share colors. If you own a playset of Jace, the Mind Sculptor (who is about $100 by himself [yes, I know, a piece of cardboard worth $100], which is the reason why the decks are so high in cost), then building a super competitive deck just got a whole lot easier as a large portion of the competitive decks use him. But still, ~$400 worth in 4 cards is absolutely ridiculous.
131
Post by: malfred
You make it back on the pro-circuit tour, right/
All I ever won in miniatures wargaming is gift certificates.
38148
Post by: Red Comet
malfred wrote:You make it back on the pro-circuit tour, right/
All I ever won in miniatures wargaming is gift certificates.
I understand what you are trying to get at, but at a PTC people are playing with all of the expensive cards and literally every deck that tops that has 4 Jace the Mind Sculptors. Its ridiculous and it doesn't mean that you'll get into the top just because you have the card everyone else has. In less than 2 years he will rotate out and be worth absolutely nothing. In Warhammer at least your models are still usable in the next edition not to mention that they increase in value as soon as you paint them nicely if you ever wanted to sell them.
Also having a fully painted army is much more satisfying to have than a shiny piece of cardboard. I've played pretty much every big TCG in the last year and all of them are exhibiting the same things. Shiny pieces of cardboard that are over 70 dollars and you need them in your deck, but unfortunately they all rotate out or in Yugioh's case get banned completely. The TCG community is very unstable with how much the shiny cardboard is worth and its only temporarily usable as it is. Amazingly enough all of this can even be said of Pokemon. You'd think after 10+ years the cards would be worthless right? Especially the new ones. Dead wrong. Warhammer is much cheaper in the long run so long as you stick to one army.
131
Post by: malfred
Red Comet wrote: so long as you stick to one army.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. Your comparisons would be nice to blog. Mind if I do?
38148
Post by: Red Comet
malfred wrote:Red Comet wrote: so long as you stick to one army.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. Your comparisons would be nice to blog. Mind if I do?
Not like you wouldn't blog about it if I said no.
40578
Post by: Formae
I just started off on Warhammer 40'000, and I do feel like it's hard at the beginning to start off. Not so much about the price, but more of the fact that as a newbie, I want all the cool things, like the Vindicators and Stormravens. The trick is, in my opinion, to pace yourself with your purchases as you start off. Once you have a well bodied army, you can start buying the stuff that is nice, but isn't needed.
20841
Post by: Shas'O Dorian
It's started to happen for me & my friends. We're a bunch of college kids & money can be a bit tight. We've all recently started playing Malifaux which is a good deal cheaper.
31545
Post by: AlexHolker
Based on those decks, I'd say competitive play is where the game stops being worth a damn. If the top 8 of both those tournaments have an average of ~2.7 Jace, the Mind Sculptors each, and 10 of those 16 players are playing variations on the same "Caw-Blade" deck with the same colours, the same special characters and the same sword, wouldn't you say that detracts from the game?
5245
Post by: Buzzsaw
Gitkikka wrote:When will it be too expensive?
About five years ago.
That's the boat I'm in: I just can't make the justification to myself for a lot of the prices. $50 for 5 terminators, 5 plastic models still on the production sprue? Madness.
I will admit that the release of Dark Eldar managed to spur me into buying for a time, but I am confounded by what was going on there, as a company strategy.
The initial waves of DE plastics were costed like they were released years ago (literally, compare Warrior and Wych boxes at 10 figures for $25 to comparable Eldar boxes at over $30 for 10). Plus, I bought my whole army at a 30% off sale.
In fairness, you are making an apples to oranges comparison there: the high prices you're seeing aren't caused by the cost from the company, but by the secondary market. GW makes miniatures, not collectibles. The value in MtG cards comes not only from their potency in-game, but from their rarity. Put another way, that $100 Jace isn't making WotC particularly more profit then the 5 cent commons.
Interestingly though, even when one compares GW products to collectibles, the price comparison doesn't really favor GW particularly. For example, HeroClix are (very roughly) in the same scale, but are sold: assembled, painted and with a multi-part, functional base as well as an individual card, all for about $2.40 per figure. That is, cheaper then even very cheap GW infantry like the new DE model range, which requires you to do all the expensive bits (assembling, painting and so on).
This really drives home just how out-of-whack GW's pricing scheme is, that even with shifting almost all of the labor costs, their products are still prohibitively expensive on a per-unit basis.
3802
Post by: chromedog
It's already too expensive to continue in the GW hobby by paying Aus retail prices.
I only buy new stuff if I HAVE to have it (as in, not having it makes my list illegal).
The rest, if I would like to have it, and it can be got for 50% from a net dealer, it gets done that way. Other than that, I scratchbuild.
28444
Post by: DarknessEternal
Deeks2010 wrote:
Im collecting the entire 2nd company of space marines with additional tanks etc the same as the picture in the codex space marines
I like buying Ferrari's and then complaining about how expensive they are compared to Honda Civics.
131
Post by: malfred
I don't know. At best GW seems like a Cadillac or BMW. I mean, they make good
quality models with interchangeable parts that benefit from ubiquity. I'm tempted
to call them Toyota.
The Porsche comparison just never flew with me.
28682
Post by: narceron
Dashofpepper wrote:Its already crossed that point for me.
I *am* a hardcore gamer, but the price of the models makes no sense - I don't really get the hobbying portion of the game, I appreciate the gaming portion of the game. So paying $4-5 per plastic model that I have to cut off the sprue myself, assemble myself, paint myself....is obscene. $50 for *maybe* $1 worth of plastic is horrendous.
I have a terminator army with 73 guys in it, if it goes up in flames...I will not be replacing it, :(
Mr. Burning wrote:
There won't be a cut off for most, people will just adjust their purchases accordingly. I don't know what GW's thinking is with repackaging the Orc boyz. Do they expect people will now simply pay almost twice as much and buy two boxes just to get the number of figures they could a month ago? I don't think it will work like that, most people just accept getting less for their money.
The orks I bought ten years ago for 40k are double boxed compared to the ones they sell today, people just don't seem to care.
chromedog wrote:It stopped being too expensive for me when I stopped buying at retail prices.
Now, if there's something I want, I'm prepared to wait for up to a year for it to hit 2nd hand markets.
Generally, with the codex release cycle and "new shiny" factor, models get dumped onto that market relatively quickly once the novelty wears off.
AGREE!
NAVARRO wrote:Da Boss wrote:Just costed my Orc and Goblin army at todays prices- £620. Holy crap. That is crazy.
.
I'm afraid to do the math for my collection, I would probably sell it all and buy a vacations house 
Then you need to sell it and buy the vacation home, that is a much better hobby and if the naysayers are right, GW will sink soon, so better to get out of the market,
Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
The GW hobby ( tm) priced me out years ago.
As I have found much better value for money elsewhere, they could been seen as doing a favor to the gaming community in general.
GW plc spends over half its pre tax profits on B&M stores recruiting new gamers.
But spends so little trying to retain customers ,most of the long term gamers move to other companies .
(Mantic are absolutly ace IMO.  )
TTFN
Agreed, why does GW need brick and mortar stores anyway? They say they are not competing with existing stores, but they certainly seem to enjoy building stores in areas with existing gamers(probably built up by the FLGS).
GW is not Apple.
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
malfred wrote:I don't know. At best GW seems like a Cadillac or BMW. I mean, they make good
quality models with interchangeable parts that benefit from ubiquity. I'm tempted
to call them Toyota.
The Porsche comparison just never flew with me.
I don't know about Porsche vs Ferrari or Hyundai. GW's Wars of the Roses models are rubbish compared with Perry Brothers'.
6210
Post by: Le Grognard
I hit my cutoff about 3 years ago.
33344
Post by: Deeks2010
DarknessEternal wrote:Deeks2010 wrote:
I'm collecting the entire 2nd company of space marines with additional tanks etc the same as the picture in the codex space marines
I like buying Ferrari's and then complaining about how expensive they are compared to Honda Civics.
I understand your point, It was never my intention when I started out to start such a lengthy project, and I am doing it on the cheap, buying second hand, broken damaged items and then sourcing replacement bits etc, but just like everyone one here, when they started out, I bet most of them didn't expect to be still playing the game 15-20 years later, and experience such huge increases in prices, and expect to be spending so much on it.
I will continue in the hobby/game for many reasons, not just because I have already invested hundreds of pounds into it, but primarily because of the satisfaction it brings me, playing, learning, being creative and spending some real fun time with my children away from a TV screen or games console, but there is a limit on how much we as a family can afford to invest in this game, I know I don't "NEED" the entire 2nd company of space marines as Its hard to field such a large army unless playing Apocalypse games, equally though Ferrari drivers cant drive the car on any road in UK legally over 70mph so why buy a super car? I bet its for very similar reasons I bought my army, the fun, enjoyment and satisfaction it brings them.
Even in my short time playing and modeling there has been one price hike, and there will be more later this year no doubt, I simply asked when will it become too expensive for some people and when do you think GW will hit breaking point and price themselves out of the market totally, which would be a great shame, as many of those that have posted on this thread, they have some fantastic background stories, some brilliant ideas, and amazing quality crafted Minni's. But from what I can see, absolutely pants marketing sense.
21196
Post by: agnosto
AresX8 wrote:
Each deck is it's own thing, but some share colors. If you own a playset of Jace, the Mind Sculptor (who is about $100 by himself [yes, I know, a piece of cardboard worth $100], which is the reason why the decks are so high in cost), then building a super competitive deck just got a whole lot easier as a large portion of the competitive decks use him. But still, ~$400 worth in 4 cards is absolutely ridiculous.
So how much are Beta Black Lotus' worth now? I'll probably cringe for selling mine for $100/ each...
37729
Post by: AresX8
agnosto wrote:AresX8 wrote:
Each deck is it's own thing, but some share colors. If you own a playset of Jace, the Mind Sculptor (who is about $100 by himself [yes, I know, a piece of cardboard worth $100], which is the reason why the decks are so high in cost), then building a super competitive deck just got a whole lot easier as a large portion of the competitive decks use him. But still, ~$400 worth in 4 cards is absolutely ridiculous.
So how much are Beta Black Lotus' worth now? I'll probably cringe for selling mine for $100/ each...
Unlimited Edition is worth about $1.3k, but it really depends on the condition. I've heard some Alpha copies go for $10k+, but that's with the card being completely mint. The feasibility of the card actually going for $10k+ is highly unrealistic, but I wouldn't be surprised if it actually did so.
Here's an auction that you can watch: http://cgi.ebay.com/BLACK-LOTUS-BETA-MAGIC-MTG-EXCELLENT-/220750682892?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3365c41b0c#ht_500wt_1156
21196
Post by: agnosto
I think I just became ill. Ah well, I needed the beer money back in college....
10414
Post by: Big P
Misguidance wrote:
(And as for it being more expensive now- when I first got into the game a blister of 3 spearmen cost £3.50. So that was *still* £35 per unit of 10
No... That would be £35 for a unit of thirty.
3 spearmen in each blister... Come on... Is basic maths dead?
A unit of ten would have cost £11.60.
So you could have bought a unit of 15 metal spearmen for £17.50.
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
It's not the affordability, it's the sticker price shock.
It's going into the shop and looking at a kit like Raveners and going, "They cost HOW MUCH?!?!?"
I can afford £27 for three Raveners if I want, but my mind refuses to believe they are worth it.
19650
Post by: shingouki
Kilkrazy wrote:It's not the affordability, it's the sticker price shock.
It's going into the shop and looking at a kit like Raveners and going, "They cost HOW MUCH?!?!?"
I can afford £27 for three Raveners if I want, but my mind refuses to believe they are worth it.
EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING(sorry for the caps its just price rage)
34439
Post by: Formosa
i have been playing/moddleing for about 21-22 years and GW has sqeazed very little blood from this stone in the last 5 years, I point blankly refuse to pay £22.50 for a set of marine that cost me £10 only a short time ago... AND THEY ARE THE SAME BOXSET?? now £15.00 i would pay, that is fair, and GW still makes a profit.
Termies are the same thing, i have a DW army i want to Update, but at £27 a boxset.. well im not sure.
the new GK ones have almost twice as much in the box, and cost 50p more, well done GW
9202
Post by: Solorg
OK, so at first I wasn't going to respond, but this topic has my interest now, so here's what I have to say.
First off, the law of Supply and Demand means that GW will feel free to raise prices as long as they continue to make a profit doing so. There will always be some people who stop buying when prices go up, yet there will be others who continue to buy. There is a line somewhere out there where enough people stop buying that GW will be forced to lower its prices. But they haven't reached it yet as I see it.
Second, this really is a rich man's game. If you don't have a lot of money, you play cards (regular cards) or you play chess. So right away, the game is designed so that if you have some extra money, you will put some into the game every now and then. GW, if it makes smart business decisions, has more products for you in case you happen to have more disposable income. The game does encourage you to spend money on it. Regularly. But I think everyone here has realized this.
That said, I want to make a point which I don't think has been made just yet. The OP wanted to know at which point price increases require one to drop out of the hobby. So here's the question I pose - what is "the hobby?" If the hobby is playing the game, you can continue to play with what you have indefinitely even if you never buy another model. Maybe your army is small, but there is no reason you can't play small games.
The question: is buying stuff what makes you enjoy the hobby? If you are all about buying stuff, you are bound to run out of money in any hobby. I admit, I like getting new models as much as the next guy, but that joy, the joy of taking a box of models home, is fleeting. The real fun (for me) is in playing. Hanging out with friends. Imagining the world.
If you are like me, you have unpainted models at home anyway. And some of you, like me, have quite a few. A good attitude for those like me would be to finish enjoying what you already acquired (painting, playing) before buying more. What I am saying is that the buying is just the first step of the fun. The second is painting. The third is fielding. The fourth is mastering the play options and tactics a unit offers. With these goals in mind, even a small army can yield a great deal of joy over a long time.
And who knows? You may enjoy the hobby MORE because you will have divorced the idea of spending on the hobby from enjoying the hobby.
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
Yes, very true.
That's why I made a resolution this year to catch up with the lead mountain rather than buy any new stuff.
34439
Post by: Formosa
yep we all have far more to build and finnish, than we need to buy
34087
Post by: Requia
The price of the models wouldn't be nearly so bad if you didn't need so damned many of them to play.
From a display perspective the pricing isn't horrible (be better if they didn't screw you on a lot of the bits and include one of something per box). It's only really when you add up the cost of the army that things get messy.
As for me, I'm out. I may buy some more figs for display (still want to make an iRhino at least), but the cost of the game is too damned high.
38176
Post by: Griever
It's about there for me. I can't come up with a decent playable force I like for under $400, and that's at 25-35% off retail. That's just really really hard for me to do. Which is a shame, because I absolutely love this hobby.
There really isn't another game like 40k. Malifaux, Warmahordes, etc etc just does not interest me at all.
32977
Post by: Inquisitor_Dunn
My buying habbits have changed over the years. Back in 3rd 40k I would purchase anything that looked awesome. At one point I had 3 landraiders in a boxes but did not even have a space marine army. Fast forward to today. I still have a pile of unpainted stuff but it is limited to the army I am currently working on. With one exception...AOBR stuff. I have amassed an Ork army and odd Marines from lowball ebay auctions.
It has made my mind up on the future of my fantasy armies. They will be elite small model count armies or not at all.
28942
Post by: Stormrider
Requia wrote:
(be better if they didn't screw you on a lot of the bits and include one of something per box).
I can't tell you how many Catachan Command Squad Boxes I have bought just to get a few bits here and there. Bitz Barn is a viable optiuon, if they weren't out of what I want all the time.
16689
Post by: notprop
Its not cheap but then it never has been.
Stating that model x cost £10 x years ago doesn't really cover it for me. I think that that models GW sell now a substantially better than they were when they were £10.
When you factor in inflation over a 10-15 year period there has been a general rise in prices of 50% (at least in the UK). So the price seem to be justifiable to me.
Of course if you are comparing GW with other manufactures then yes the are pricey (whether they are to you taste or not). That cost is driven by the retail chain they hold (which is vital in the UK and merely important in other markets). With out the shops there would not be the huge cost, but with out the shops there would not be the huge demand (HHHobby wise) for GW product. At this point GW can not operate without these shops.
Having said this there is discrepancy in the range - single metals for £9.75 ( GK special weapons being a good example, is that 1 or 2?). But I would suggest that this comes from the comparatively low numbers of metals now sold by GW. When they sell box sets with all options then the odd metal will be less required.
So as you can see I can happily justify GW to myself, thats not to say that I buy any GWs products and indeed haven't for 6+ months. This is because like allot of the old geezers that have posted before I have a huge backlog that needs justifying to the Mrs...... er I mean painting.
Another question to discuss: (Economies of scale aside) Why are other compaines charging similar rates for metal models as GW do?, and yet do not maintain a retail chain?
Porche indeed?
34906
Post by: Pacific
notprop wrote:Its not cheap but then it never has been.
When you factor in inflation over a 10-15 year period there has been a general rise in prices of 50% (at least in the UK). So the price seem to be justifiable to me.
The price of these guys is justifiable? :(
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440079a&prodId=prod900162a
notprop wrote:
Porche indeed?
Thankyou, notprop
6356
Post by: Ghidorah
DarknessEternal wrote:I like buying Ferrari's and then complaining about how expensive they are compared to Honda Civics.
I happen to drive one of those.
King Ghidorah
16689
Post by: notprop
As I say to me. Every ones financial curcumstance will colour their POV. I do okay so can get what I like (if the Mrs doesn't catch on what I am a doing).
I can't see the pic at work so naturally will assume that it is very complimentary. Thank you
3720
Post by: brettz123
Deeks2010 wrote:Following this years price hike due to tax levels increasing, and no doubt additional price rises in future months/years, I was wondering when it would get to the point that GW eventually priced themselves out of the market.
When will it come to the point that people just say "how much? im not paying that for a model kit" or something similar, for instance GW recent price increases put the price of a 5 man devastator squad up to £20.50 in the UK that £4.10 per model, quite expensive really if you think about it.
Im collecting the entire 2nd company of space marines with additional tanks etc the same as the picture in the codex space marines and this will cost somewhere in the region of £1,200(if you bought it all from GW) to build let alone the paint and glue and time put into it. thats a heck alot of money for what is simply some plastic/metal models.
Now I know that if I dont like the idea of paying that much then I dont have to get into the hobby, but I have, I also shop around for alot of stuff cheaper than GW prices, I was just wondering when would it get to the point for some of you to say enough is enough and not to buy anymore?
Ellis
I think it depends on if you are a person just starting or someone who has models already. It seems to me that if you have models already you are probably more likely to continue buying at current or higher prices because you can already play and you can pick up thing here and there to fit into your already existing armies or you can take your time and build a new army over months or years.
The problem with higher prices in my opinion is more pronounced when you are dealing with new players entering the game. This is because they need (or at least will feel some pressure) to start playing as soon as possible and therefore will notice the total cost of an army much more quickly. This could be a serious hindrance to new people getting into the hobby. I realize we all joke about how mommy and daddy will continue to shell out for their kids to buy new stuff but a lot of potential new players will be adults or their parents really will not be willing to shell out that kind of money.
Either way rising prices are certainly bad for GW in the long term.
39179
Post by: yellowsnow
When GW's Prices Get to high people who go crazy with new armys will just use empty bases and pretend.... maybe?
35808
Post by: Mukkin'About
Vassal shall become incredibly popular in those dark days
459
Post by: Hellfury
NAVARRO wrote:Hellfury wrote:Privateer Press carries most of the weight for my FLGS in terms of miniature wargame sales. Which is kind of a big deal because it has to be one of the biggest if not the biggest GW retailer in MN.
Thats a big deal indeed I wonder how GW will manage to keep up the price structure if the major FLGS stop selling their goods and official GW stores are reduced to minimum staff etc... something tells me the Hobbit will have a big role for GW future.
All of those that have been here for some time know there is always going to be people jumping off, for tons of diferent reasons, but this time theres something diferent happening... Some flags are shifting to other companies goods and GW is not the main product to some of those anymore?... maybe people now have to think better on were to spend money due to the economic stress we are living, maybe competition is much more stronger, better and available everywere... maybe GW just outpriced themselves from their mainstream costumers... All in all I think the overall Hobby has never been this good and diverse and if thats a cause of GW prices then its a positive thing this GW fiasco 
It's hard to say what the exact cause is, for sure. But that FLGS is not too happy carrying such a large stock of GW that doesn't move. Especially since it is trying to maintain Partner status. Most of the derisive comments from customers are pointed towards the poor state of the rules for 40K and WHFB. It's universally recognized that the models are great but people locally just don't seem to want to play a game with poor rules when so many better alternatives exist no matter how pretty the models are. They appear to be more discriminating than the average bears that GW wish they were.
All I know is that the people who do buy the GW minis need to thank the PP/ FoW/etc crowd and others who do support the shop enough to keep such a large GW stock present, because if it wasn't for the alternatives available, then that shop wouldn't be open, let alone offering GW.
9202
Post by: Solorg
I think there is a false pressure for new players that they somehow need to acquire a finished army in one go. I am just not sure that this is how the hobby is designed. If you have $500 to go buy everything you want in one go, good for you. But when I started, it was with a few Orks and Grots that came out of a starter set (friends got the Space Marines). It took me a few months to paint them up. Then it was time to play. I didn't have the rules yet - didn't need them - because my friends taught me the game. We played small-points games and they were the best games of my life. When I didn't have enough Orks, a friend would ally with me and it was also very fun.
I have a large collection now, but it took many years. There is no way I could then (or now) afford to buy a new army all in one go. It definitely requires a chunk of change to get started no matter what, but there's nothing wrong with starting small or even proxying when you're getting started. That Kleenex Box sure looks like a Battlewagon to me! And with a little Konversion, I'm even on my way to Scratchbuilding which saves money AND earns you reknown amongst your friends as you master your art.
Believe me, you can have a load of fun playing 500-pt games with your AOBR Orks and your scratchbuilt Battle Wagon, probably raced into battle by your bad-arse WARBOSS. And while you're spending the time it takes to assemble and paint those badboyz, you can save your pennies week-by-week for the next addition to your Battle Line.
Now some might at this point suggest that they might want some other army other than Orks. To which I say simply, who in his right mind WOULDN'T want to play Orks???
Nuff Said,
Solorg
6356
Post by: Ghidorah
Talk about false pressure with a sig like yours?
King Ghidorah
29271
Post by: NoBaconz4You
When they get higher than they are now. Forced to buy online :(
3806
Post by: Grot 6
When there's no more room in hell, GW will lower thier price....
24779
Post by: Eilif
Mukkin'About wrote:Vassal shall become incredibly popular in those dark days
Doubtfull. Maybe some more people will start vassal, but I bet when 40k or WFB gets too expensive folks who enjoy the miniatures aspect will quit the game entirely.
Solorg wrote:I think there is a false pressure for new players that they somehow need to acquire a finished army in one go. I am just not sure that this is how the hobby is designed.
Unfortunately, I think that is exactly how GW designed the hobby and the gaming community has played along. They'll tell you that you can start small if you only have $100 to start with. However, how many folks do you see playing with 500 point armies? GW and the community push the new player to acquire a large army ASAP, and it's only exacerbated by the fact that for many armies 1000 points takes more miniatures than it did before.
8932
Post by: Lanrak
Hi all.
I have just had a look at the finacial figures for GW plc over the last 10 years.
In the last decade inflation has risen by 35% (average).
During the same period of time , GW retail prices have increased by 130%(average.)
If the same amount of people were buying the same amount of product as in 2001, GW plc would have £80 MILLION pounds more revenue a year!
GW plc customer base is shrinking year on year, and is now reducing faster than GW price increases can compensate for.
So the price rises will HAVE to get more frequent or larger or both!IF GW plc continue with thier out of date buisness plan.
Therfore the ' GW hobby' ( tm) will become too expencive alot faster than some people think!
TTFN
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
It would be a good idea to check sales for the late 1990s.
2001 was the year that LoTR released. GW had a huge bulge of sales for several years, until in 2004 it started to drop away.
33344
Post by: Deeks2010
Solorg wrote: this really is a rich man's game. If you don't have a lot of money, you play cards (regular cards) or you play chess. So right away, the game is designed so that if you have some extra money, you will put some into the game every now and then. GW, if it makes smart business decisions, has more products for you in case you happen to have more disposable income. The game does encourage you to spend money on it. Regularly. But I think everyone here has realized this.
That said, I want to make a point which I don't think has been made just yet. The OP wanted to know at which point price increases require one to drop out of the hobby. So here's the question I pose - what is "the hobby?"
And there was me thinking that GW latest target demographic was teenage customers, not many of those richs ones knocking about lately! I never realised that playing a game such as this was for the rich only, I thought it was a classless game, Ive just realised what those tents are for you see at the polo matches, they must be for gaming tables set up in them ready for a quick skirmish match when the Gee Gee's get tired!
My point of view on the prices of everything that GW sells was from the point of view of a young new player such as my son, to even get started with the minimum AOBR box set your looking at nearly 55 quid, that dosnt even include any paints glues etc. and then if you want to have a legal game with anyone else you have to buy more. our inital purchase came in just short of £100 and even if you factor in the fun and enjoyment we get from playing it, its still expensive for some plastic models.
If a business, is aiming to bring in new gamers/modellers/paying customers into the fold, the last thing you should do is work towards pricing most of your target demographic out of the game before they set a foot inside the door.
With regard your second point, I dont see the confusion with the term "Hobby" I class both building/painting my models then playing a game with them as a hobby, and even if you do consider them to be two very different things, to do either of them you have to buy the model kits, so either way you look at it, if they price the kits too high, they will loose potential new customers, and unless prices either level off or dont start to drop soon they will loose existing customers. Simples!
9202
Post by: Solorg
Ghidorah wrote:Talk about false pressure with a sig like yours?
King Ghidorah
Touche!
14706
Post by: CATACLYSMUS
In my business, I have started to buy a whole army, paint it, and sell it. So far, I have done this with Dark Angels, Tomb Kings, IG, and am starting work on a Blood Angels Army. I standardize my points for the armies at around 2500 for WHFB, and 2000 for 40k. When assembling these forces, I notice that they retail for between 750-800 dollars. Now, I usually go for what is popular in the metagame, leavened with a sprinkling of simply cool models. This seems pricey from the standpoint of initial outlay, but when you consider other popular hobbies, I don't really see it as prohibitive.
The problem I have with GW's sales/marketing scheme is that, once you have settled on an army, you can guarantee that if it is not Space Marines, you will have at least a 4-5 year period during which you will simply not be competitive. (RE: Ogre Kingdoms, Tomb Kings, Eldar, Necrons, Dark Eldar, etc...) Sure, if you are a tactical genius (CREEEEEEEED!!!!), you can find a way to monkey a win out of almost any game. However, for the 98% of us that aren't, but still love our armies, it can get pretty oppressive losing all the time.
This forces you to either: 1. Get used to seeing your wonderfully themed army getting its cockles kicked in regularly. <or> 2. Buy a different army.
This is where the $750-$800 per standard tourney-sized force becomes a problem.
I see a paradigm shift coming for GW. It will have to, or smaller companies such as Privateer, Wyrd, etc. will snap up the customers with their much more player-centric business models.
8932
Post by: Lanrak
Hi Killkrazy.
Just looking at the financials for GW in the mid to late 1990s.
When GW supported all thier games (board and SGs,) and 40k was a large skirmish game of 2nd ed.
1995 to 1998, GW plc turn over rose from 30 to 60 million pounds!
DOUBLED thier turn over in 3 years.(When they focused on gamers and game support.)
After the 'rushed hatchet job' of 3rd ed 40k ,turn over growth slowed down a bit, 60 million to 78 ,million from 1998 to 2000.
GW turn over rose from 78 million to 98 million at the start of the LoTR 'bubble,' 2000 to 2001.
GW plc period of greatest growth was when they activley supported and pomoted a wide range of games to appeal to a wide range of gamers.
Since GW plc has declared it self to be '...in the buisness of selling toy soldiers to kiddies...' they have lost sales volumes year on year.
And now even thier massive price increases can not make up the shortfall in sales volumes.
GW plc are in serious trouble , they can not make the radical changes required to secure long term growth without loosing short term revenue.
TTFN.
14706
Post by: CATACLYSMUS
They need to refocus their business model on their key demographic, wargamers. So much of what keeps people in the game over the long haul is the community set up by, and for, the gamers them selves. Alas, gamers no longer run GW. Businessmen do. While I have no inherent problem with businessmen, there needs to be a stronger gamer influence among the decision-makers at GW.
8932
Post by: Lanrak
Hi Cataclysmus.
I totaly agree.(And the finacial figure seem to back it up too!)
I belive the main problem is the disjoint between the what GWs core buisness actualy is...
A social interaction that drives demand for product, when more people are engaged for longer it drives demand higher.
When there is a large group of experianced gamers and hobbiests demonstrating the varied creative and socialy rewarding hobby , this drives interest by showing the added value of the products.
And the GW corperate managments view that is all about '... selling toy soldiers to kiddies...'
Where short term sales to young people just demonstrates '...large amounts of VERY EXPENCIVE unpainted plastic soldiers they play with once then forget about...'
GWplc seems to think is can substitute good game play with low brow marketing to kiddies, because its easier to expalin and appears to be the simplest cheapest solution.
However, the ever increasing price barrier prevents a larger proportion of thier target demoghraphic making initial purchases.
As more people become aware of the alternatives , GWplc slice of the pie is getting smaller.
TTFN
22413
Post by: mwnciboo
When will it be too expensive to continue to hobby?
Hmm....If i have to compromise myself and morale compass and sell "Class A" Narcotics to earn cash to satisfy my addiction to hobbying, then I would suggest that its too expensive....(Might have taken that one to a bit of an extreme)
|
|