The gaming community is'nt huge, that I understand, but if their prices were lower, im positive more people would get into the hobby, therefore increasing sales to about the same profit as before. Sure molds cost a crapload of money, but they last in some cases years, im sure in that time they were paid for and then some. So why keep prices so high? Many of my friends had to give up on the hobby and sell their prized armies because they couldn't go anywhere with them. Sure gw will always have sales, but only beacuse they are one of the only companies that offer their kind of products. If a new better company opened up and had a great game with low prices, I would be super inticed to give up on gw. So what do you think??

Because there are enough people who will pay their prices. They whine and complain then open up the wallet every time.

Ive given up on GW for anything but the occasional purchase. Its not just the prices, I really dont care for the current 40k rules either, and Im not into WHFB.

The thing is, there is no proof that lowering prices would get enough people into the game.

Think about it, if GW has a profit margin of 50% on a $40 box, and they lower it, they are losing $5 from their $20 profit, or 25%. Now it will take them 33% more people buying the product to stay even.

Do you think a price drop of 12.5% will make 33% more people get into the game?

I didn't think so.


Keep in mind these numbers are not official, but they show a point. Even if you disregard profit margin, I don't think that lowering prices would gain enough new players to make up for it.

Ever heard of payroll? Games Workshop is not a molding company, there are literally thousands of people who make this game happen on a daily basis. Those molds don't create themselves, sculptors make models, then shrink them down. Then industrial designers figure out how to carve these things into pieces that can be reliably molded. Then there' customer service, etc...

I was in my FLGS today and found some old posters, dating from around 3rd edition. You know what the list price on a Predator was back then? $32.50. And it was expensive back then, too. And made half of metal. And people still bought it.

Long story short: if you want a cheaper game, play solitaire, cards are pretty inexpensive. Otherwise, save up your extra cash and buy the stuff. If no one was buying the minis/books/whatever, there would be no Games Workshop.

GW's margin on a box is 76%.

Most of their revenue is spent on running the retail chain.

Well then lower the starter kit (black reach, iob) people walk into my local gw and ask how to get into the hobby, the manager then says, "buy this awsome starter kit for 99.00$!" then the people say, I'll think on it with a frown and walk out. Im sure if you did that it would help intice more people into the hobby.

Because they can?

Dudes, I mean this topic, again? It's covered a bizillion times before and unfortunately no one seems to be giving any real info. Ask any business major. Or better yet, search the web, you will find decent explanations. It's your wallet, say no lol.

Because this has been asked and answered in 50 other threads. Read those.

Midnightdeathblade wrote:Well then lower the starter kit (black reach, iob) people walk into my local gw and ask how to get into the hobby, the manager then says, "buy this awsome starter kit for 99.00$!" then the people say, I'll think on it with a frown and walk out. Im sure if you did that it would help intice more people into the hobby.

I think that if people are balking at the $99.00 for the Black Reach box,then they are not people that are going to put any appreciable amount of money into an army,to be honest. The Black Reach box is still an insanely good deal for the mini's you get. A Dreadnaught and a 5-man Terminator squad alone are $95 bucks,although the Black Reach versions don't come with any options. Black Reach is an insanely good deal and a great start for any new player looking at building Orks or Space Marines.

The price of entertainment options accross the board has gone up in recent years,be it video games[recent console game hike from $50 to $60 accross the board],movies,tickets to sporting events,etc. I just really don't see GW as being any different.

ph34r wrote:The thing is, there is no proof that lowering prices would get enough people into the game.

Think about it, if GW has a profit margin of 50% on a $40 box, and they lower it, they are losing $5 from their $20 profit, or 25%. Now it will take them 33% more people buying the product to stay even.

Do you think a price drop of 12.5% will make 33% more people get into the game?

I didn't think so.


Keep in mind these numbers are not official, but they show a point. Even if you disregard profit margin, I don't think that lowering prices would gain enough new players to make up for it.

You don't have to get more people into it to make up for the difference. Dropping the price by 12.5% may simply get their current players to buy more.

Hell, I've walked by some of the new kits like the Sanguinary Guard wanting to buy it, but can't justify the cost... and I don't even play Blood Angels. If they lowered it by $5-10, I may pick one up.
The plastic Gargoyles box released a year ago were amazing. I got two if only because it was acceptable value. I didn't need them. I already had 24 converted Gargoyles. The opposite happened with the Raveners Boxed set. You can't justify the price of the Raveners set.

get a better job so you can afford them. easy.

I dunno what to tell ya OP. It is what it is. I enjoy the game, and the friends i have made. In the end, I have gotten more out of it, than the $$ I spent.

My own bitchery to add to this - I just started Tau. Figured I'd better check on Kroot Hounds, see how expensive they were.

$7/model (pre-discounts)

Chaos Warhounds:
$2.48/model (pre-discounts)

There is no f'ing way being in metal adds $4.52 to a model's cost. That's just stupid, charging that much. Which is why I don't spend 'new' money on models - I sell old ones to buy new ones. There is no way GW's stuff is worth what they charge. Just because some half-wit out there is willing to buy Kroothounds @ $7 a pop, does not mean I have to. Ebay for Chaos Warhounds, here I come!

Short answer: Because the market will bear it.

Long answer: beeeeeecaaaauuuuseeee ttthhheeee maaaarrkkketttt wiiiilll beeeaaarrrr iiiiitttt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manticore2009 wrote:Dudes, I mean this topic, again? It's covered a bizillion times before

The last time this was discussed here was Jan 27th. By Dakka's rules, there is nothing prohibiting this discussion as often as 10 to 11 times per year, depending on how frequently it is responded to. If you find this topic odious, you should probably just avoid reading and responding to such threads.

Mad4Minis wrote:Because there are enough people who will pay their prices. They whine and complain then open up the wallet every time.

Judging by the repeated trends we see in GW's financial statements, I'm not sure that's true.

Ouze wrote:Short answer: Because the market will bear it.

Long answer: beeeeeecaaaauuuuseeee ttthhheeee maaaarrkkketttt wiiiilll beeeaaarrrr iiiiitttt.

I lol'd.


King Ghidorah

I've been watching the stocks of other companies GW Should know that the economy is getting a whole lot better. Though I don't know why they raised prices in australia,

Midnightdeathblade wrote:The gaming community is'nt huge, that I understand,

Membership numbers to various sites gives comparable amounts to other hobby sites, so I'd say that it's as big as many/most hobbies in the world.

We just had a discussion on this a few weeks ago, and as stated there, compared to many other hobbies(toy collecting, paintball, airsoft, scrapbooking), it's no more, and often times LESS, expensive.

Hobbies are expensive, get over it.

JOHIRA wrote:

Mad4Minis wrote:Because there are enough people who will pay their prices. They whine and complain then open up the wallet every time.

Judging by the repeated trends we see in GW's financial statements, I'm not sure that's true.

True, Ive noticed a bunch of people getting away from GW stuff.

Me, I love a lot of their minis. I wont get into WHFB simply because I dont have the time needed for an army that large. As far as 40k goes...I dont like the current rules, at all. So for the time being Ill just be picking up a mini here and there for the fun of building it.

Overall I do think GW prices are a bit steep, but its pretty low on the list of things keeping me out of their games.


Right now Im getting back into battletech, necromunda, and some board games like Mantics Dwarf Kings Hold.

1) Because people will pay it, and to whoever is setting the prices, these prices optimize their profit.

2) I hate to rehash this argument, but think about a new video game. It cost you about 60 bucks, and you'll play it for what? A month or so? Then you'll be bored with it and go buy the new awesoem game coming out. On the other hand, I spend 50 bucks on a Leman Russ, and assume 10 bucks for the glue and paint, then I can use that model for years. GW has a high cost to get intot he hobby, but once you're in it doesn't cost nearly as much to stay in. (Yes, it costs a lot to get in and stay competitive, but it doesn't cost a lot to stay in the hobby.)

look at older posts, this post is always the same, hate seeing the same post over and over again. use the search option if you want to see peoples opinions of gw prices. hope not to see this post again, it's so negative. if you dont like the prices then dont buy the porduct simple, start playing badminton or something!!!

Midnightdeathblade wrote:The gaming community is'nt huge, that I understand, but if their prices were lower, im positive more people would get into the hobby, therefore increasing sales to about the same profit as before. Sure molds cost a crapload of money, but they last in some cases years, im sure in that time they were paid for and then some. So why keep prices so high? Many of my friends had to give up on the hobby and sell their prized armies because they couldn't go anywhere with them. Sure gw will always have sales, but only beacuse they are one of the only companies that offer their kind of products. If a new better company opened up and had a great game with low prices, I would be super inticed to give up on gw. So what do you think??

Im assuming you are younger then 18 and dont have any major financial commitments?

Try working, paying rent, running a vehicle, etc and stilll paying for the hobby-and no I'm not complaining.

As others have said its not that expensive compared to other hobbies (you might spent £50-£100 on a night on the beer, or £50 just going to the cinema)

Buy your models from ebay, car boot sales, trade for things. Your idea that a tiny drop in price would bring that many people into the hobby sounds a touch strange to me.

Thats just my thoughts anyway

Try remember that not only does GW sell what seems to be overpriced minis, but they alow you to, regardless of whether you bought a GW model in store or elsewhere, to freely come in and use their tables for gaming/painting. While yes the over pricing doesnt cover it but its just something to think about.

I havent been aboard Dak very long, but I see these topics come up all the time. Its a free Market and a capitalists economy they are operating in. In my opinion (and I will assume theirs too) GW makes the best miniatures and has created one of the most successful tabletop games. When your stock is high, why would you decrease your prices? I would love to see them drop prices on their merch....$50 for 5 tiny little terminators is borderline robbery, then again, as reluctant as I am...I buy them and so do the rest of you. There is no reason why a White Dwarf should be pennies shy of $10 per copy, but it is and people pay those prices too. As long as their margins are profitable they are going to continue pricing things the way they do. the price of plastic has increased by almost 50% in the past 2 years, but still that is no reason to inflate the prices like they have.

Midnightdeathblade wrote:The gaming community is'nt huge, that I understand, but if their prices were lower, im positive more people would get into the hobby, therefore increasing sales to about the same profit as before. Sure molds cost a crapload of money, but they last in some cases years, im sure in that time they were paid for and then some. So why keep prices so high? Many of my friends had to give up on the hobby and sell their prized armies because they couldn't go anywhere with them. Sure gw will always have sales, but only beacuse they are one of the only companies that offer their kind of products. If a new better company opened up and had a great game with low prices, I would be super inticed to give up on gw. So what do you think??

Quite simple really. The oligarchs who run the Games Workshop have an appetite for pr0n stars and cheap blow that make Charlie Sheen look like a sour-faced prude. They are the Illuminati, and when not feeding their carnal desires with huge piles of cash, they are working to destablize the world economy. Over the last few years they've come close to succeeding in their mission, and by buying their plastic crack at wildly inflated prices you are in turn destabalizing both the US greenback and the euro simultaneously.

Well, that, and the fact that as a niche hobby that requires a love of fantasy/sci-fi, modeling, painting, rolling dice, math and leaving the house to interact with likeminded individuals of the same species, they have a limited market to sell to. The last requirement almost did me in, but I soldier on, and work hard to feed my addiction.

ph34r wrote:The thing is, there is no proof that lowering prices would get enough people into the game.

Think about it, if GW has a profit margin of 50% on a $40 box, and they lower it, they are losing $5 from their $20 profit, or 25%. Now it will take them 33% more people buying the product to stay even.

Do you think a price drop of 12.5% will make 33% more people get into the game?

I didn't think so.


Keep in mind these numbers are not official, but they show a point. Even if you disregard profit margin, I don't think that lowering prices would gain enough new players to make up for it.

The profit margin is closer to 500%. At least off the website, they probably get 3 or 400% on retail.

The problem comes is that GW is a publicly traded company, and the market reacts poorly to companies that don't show more profit (note, making a profit isn't enough, you have to make more profit than last year).

So GW ups the prices in order to get more profits in the short term, long term it means sales go down because new people are scared away by the high cost of entry (GW sales are down now in fact, and if I understand the reports right, they've actually been falling for a while on a per game basis but this was hidden by the introduction of the Lord of the Rings game).

Eventually it'll destroy the long term profitability of the company, but the people that own the company (IE, the stockholders) don't make any money (or possibly even lose money) if profits don't go up in the short term.

The above applies pretty much whenever a company makes short sighted decisions, the growth based economic model the world runs on has serious issues (especially in light of the stagnant wages for the last 30 years).

There is a lovely essay floating around somewhere on the internet where someone dissected Games Workshops profit margins on an individual kit...I'll see if I can find it.

Found it!

http://www.fightingtigersofveda.com/roarseconomics.html

ChrisWWII wrote:There is a lovely essay floating around somewhere on the internet where someone dissected Games Workshops profit margins on an individual kit...I'll see if I can find it.

Thats pretty insightful and spot on for those of you out there majoring in economics. The only thing I dont like is that 98% of his figures are speculation based off of internet searches. I dont recall once hearing him quote or use a legitimate statistic or price directly from GW other than the retail cost of the LR. I suppose it can give you a very rigid idea of the marginal profits for GW.

There is a lovely essay floating around somewhere on the internet where someone dissected Games Workshops profit margins on an individual kit...I'll see if I can find it.

I actually know what you're talking about: the kit in question was a Land Raider. GW collects less than $10.00 profit from a 62 dollar sale.

I've just started playing Warmachine and am having a hard time even thinking about 40k..

Element206 wrote:
Thats pretty insightful and spot on for those of you out there majoring in economics. The only thing I dont like is that 98% of his figures are speculation based off of internet searches. I dont recall once hearing him quote or use a legitimate statistic or price directly from GW other than the retail cost of the LR. I suppose it can give you a very rigid idea of the marginal profits for GW.

He is using approximations, but even using approximations, the various ratios should hold roughly true...unless GW has some kind of secret access to black market sculptors and molding machines, I can't see the approximations being ridiculouslly far away from the reality.

Goddard wrote:

There is a lovely essay floating around somewhere on the internet where someone dissected Games Workshops profit margins on an individual kit...I'll see if I can find it.

I actually know what you're talking about: the kit in question was a Land Raider. GW collects less than $10.00 profit from a 62 dollar sale.

No way can that be accurate, if it was then the competitors that charge $1.50 per model instead of 3-10$ per model would be bankrupt. That's before considering that GW has a huge economy of scale advantage (IE, they don't have to outsource the molding process).

Well, the figures are looking at Land Raiders in particular, as opposed to Marines.

Requia wrote:

Goddard wrote:

There is a lovely essay floating around somewhere on the internet where someone dissected Games Workshops profit margins on an individual kit...I'll see if I can find it.

I actually know what you're talking about: the kit in question was a Land Raider. GW collects less than $10.00 profit from a 62 dollar sale.

No way can that be accurate, if it was then the competitors that charge $1.50 per model instead of 3-10$ per model would be bankrupt. That's before considering that GW has a huge economy of scale advantage (IE, they don't have to outsource the molding process).

It could be accurate, for that one particular kit. A companies level of profit varies by product, some are just better than others profit wise. It wouldnt surprise me if some GW apologist fan boy went through the entire catalog until the found the model with the highest retail/lowest profit ratio then made a big deal of it, showing how poor GW only made $10 off a $62 sale. The same could be done on the opposite end of the spectrum as well.

Like its been said...either pay the price or find something else to play. I vote find something else. Let GW continue to price themselves out of existence. They will go bankrupt, and either restructure and start over, or someone will buy the IP and run with it.

Yeah, I'm a bit confused too I have to admit- why can Mantic produce it's Orcs for less than half the price of GW?
The only defense I can think of is that the core troops are the profit makers for less profitable items that take equal amounts of design time.
Does that make sense to the sculptors out there?

Da Boss wrote:Yeah, I'm a bit confused too I have to admit- why can Mantic produce it's Orcs for less than half the price of GW?
The only defense I can think of is that the core troops are the profit makers for less profitable items that take equal amounts of design time.
Does that make sense to the sculptors out there?

No retail overhead.

If it's really down to that, then...wow.

The stores must be running at quite a loss.

malfred wrote:

Da Boss wrote:Yeah, I'm a bit confused too I have to admit- why can Mantic produce it's Orcs for less than half the price of GW?
The only defense I can think of is that the core troops are the profit makers for less profitable items that take equal amounts of design time.
Does that make sense to the sculptors out there?

No retail overhead.

I'll see you're retail overhead and raise you multinational corporation with an almost monopoly over the fantasy/scifi wargaming hobby with an established customer base and mass production resources and materials buying power...

The land raiders were estimated to cost GW about 12$, its the operating costs (marketing and so forth, thing not directly related to the land raider but that cost the company money regardless) that kill it.

Looking at the stockholder report, I think it is right. The profit margins for the company aren't exactly stellar. (16 million pounds last year, for a company with over a hundred million in revenue). The operating costs consumed ~80 million. (comparatively, actual cost of sales was ~30 million).

I find it mind boggling that it costs the company that much more to run day to day business without ever making a single package than smaller competitors. Are they paying the executives that much, or are they just that focused on maintaining the leading spot that they'll borderline bankrupt themselves spending on marketing?

Warlord & Perry Bros each make similar quality plastic minis as GW at a lower price.

Mantic makes slightly lower quality plastic minis at an even greater lower price.

Wargames Factory minis are significantly lower quality, but are damn cheap compared to GW.

Gw being a larger company should be able to make a cheaper product. The fact that they don't shows that either: (1) they are doing something wrong, or (2) they are incredibly savvy at taking your money hand over fist.

Or we can factor in the fact that GW has a huge network of brick and mortar stores that they have to support as well, something none of those other producers have to worry about.

If the stores are costing them that much, surely they are a failure? They could market their miniatures through other media than the stores, cut down on all the stores that aren't profitable. People would still buy.

If that is the case then why not just do this and salvage the whole enterprise.

1. Close their chain of stores. If this is seriously draining as much of their income as people are claiming they ultimately aren't worth it. Independent LFG will have a place to flourish when prices change.

2. Become a company based completely online. They can reprice their product so that it is more accessible/affordable and so that other online companies can no longer undercut retail and offer their hefty discounts. This will promote the LFG again as the brick and mortar stores will no longer have to compete with websites offering massive percentages off.

3. Use the majesty that is the Interwebs to promote and advertise their game! With the game more affordable and LFG's finding it easier to open up in small towns not only will their player base vastly increase, but there will be more places to actually play their product which in itself promotes sells growth.

These are all major decisions, I understand, and GW's business plan is metaphorically a bleeding house of cards. Any major changes (even positive ones) might bring the whole thing tumbling down. As it stands it is easier for them to simply raise prices and close the occasional store so that their numbers don't chase the stockholders off in droves.

But you can only whip a horse so much before he dies. And you can't squeeze water from a stone.

There will come a day when GW prices themselves into oblivion or a contender rises to end their ridiculous company.

It is such a shame that something we love as much as we do is in the hands of such poor businessmen.

It seems to be doing something wrong, been going over executive pay and while they're in the 6 figure range, they don't hit 7 figures, which means that 80,000,000 L must be actual expenses. Marketing I guess.

I think that idea would work great nobleseven. It's just impossible because Gw is Gw....

because they can.

edit - delete msg

NobleSeven wrote:
2. Become a company based completely online. (snip)

3. Use the majesty that is the Interwebs to promote and advertise their game! (snip)

Your heresy has been reported to the administratum, brother. While the Emperor protects, Games Workshop will never tap into the foul energies of the Warp Wide Web.

Mad4Minis wrote:Ive given up on GW for anything but the occasional purchase. Its not just the prices, I really dont care for the current 40k rules either, and Im not into WHFB.

Ditto.

I've discovered the world of alternate miniature miniature manufacturers. God Bless Heresy Miniatures and Antenociti's Workshop and Micro-Art Studios!

If you really want to complain about the price of Warhammer, come to Australia or New Zealand then compare our prices to yours and see who is worse off.

Capt. Rex wrote:If you really want to complain about the price of Warhammer, come to Australia or New Zealand then compare our prices to yours and see who is worse off.

This could possibly be attributed to the fact that your continent is the furthest away from the UK. Or maybe you just have really high sales tax? Either way we all continue to buy the products because we love the game, so I guess it really doesnt matter what type of profit margins GW is turning. I dont beleive that GW would take advantage of their already extremely small buyers market to earn additional profit. That would just be bad short run economics.

Either way we all continue to buy the products because we love the game, so I guess it really doesnt matter what type of profit margins GW is turning.

Raised prices don't drive away existing customers nearly as fast as they drive away new customers. It's the lack of new customers that will hurt them in the long run.

Requia wrote:

ph34r wrote:The thing is, there is no proof that lowering prices would get enough people into the game.

Think about it, if GW has a profit margin of 50% on a $40 box, and they lower it, they are losing $5 from their $20 profit, or 25%. Now it will take them 33% more people buying the product to stay even.

Do you think a price drop of 12.5% will make 33% more people get into the game?

I didn't think so.


Keep in mind these numbers are not official, but they show a point. Even if you disregard profit margin, I don't think that lowering prices would gain enough new players to make up for it.

The profit margin is closer to 500%. At least off the website, they probably get 3 or 400% on retail.

The problem comes is that GW is a publicly traded company, and the market reacts poorly to companies that don't show more profit (note, making a profit isn't enough, you have to make more profit than last year).

... .

The margin of retail price compared to cost of goods is 76% according to GW's latest financial report. That means that 24% of the retail price (before sales tax) is the cost of designing the goods, making them and putting them in the shop.

Companies are compelled by international law to state those figures as accurately as they reasonably can.

GW charge so much because they feed off our forum rage.

GW: "Problem, Dakkites?"

theHandofGork wrote:Warlord & Perry Bros each make similar quality plastic minis as GW at a lower price.

Mantic makes slightly lower quality plastic minis at an even greater lower price.

Wargames Factory minis are significantly lower quality, but are damn cheap compared to GW.

Gw being a larger company should be able to make a cheaper product. The fact that they don't shows that either: (1) they are doing something wrong, or (2) they are incredibly savvy at taking your money hand over fist.

Do any of these companies write the rules for their products? Not really. Do they pay for large marketing campaigns to push their products? Probably not.

Let me get this straight: everyone complains about the game, its minis, and its prices, then shops elsewhere and wonders why the company that started the game is so expensive and exclusive about its intellectual and physical properties? Whew...

Writing rules to games is a profit center, not a cost center.

As for marketing, marketing is supposed to *create* money for the company, not cause them to lose it.

GW wants to make money. They will do what they must to have a profit. Simple business practice. Im no GW apologist but to have better minis come out plus the ever growing collection of plastics, and the writers for rules, they have to make it up somewhere.

Warmachine is just as expensive to buy out an entire faction and that is just including buying units only once.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

theHandofGork wrote:Warlord & Perry Bros each make similar quality plastic minis as GW at a lower price.

Mantic makes slightly lower quality plastic minis at an even greater lower price.

Wargames Factory minis are significantly lower quality, but are damn cheap compared to GW.

Gw being a larger company should be able to make a cheaper product. The fact that they don't shows that either: (1) they are doing something wrong, or (2) they are incredibly savvy at taking your money hand over fist.

Do any of these companies write the rules for their products? Not really. Do they pay for large marketing campaigns to push their products? Probably not.

Let me get this straight: everyone complains about the game, its minis, and its prices, then shops elsewhere and wonders why the company that started the game is so expensive and exclusive about its intellectual and physical properties? Whew...

Yes, Mantic just came out with a fantasy ruleset (which is free) and Warlord has Blackpowder.
Does GW pay for large marketing campaigns? I've never seen a GW ad before, except in White Dwarf, which now costs $8. Marketing for DOW is done by Relic, who pays GW for using their IP.
Sorry, time for a new argument.

If GW closed down their stores a lot of gamers would lose their place to play and paint, and would hence leave the hobby. The walk-in trade would also stop, thus losing them a lot of new players (I know a dozen people at my local store who began playing because they wandered in by chance, and would not have ever considered wargaming if they had not.)

It's all well and good to say that they should become a website only business, but I think that it would destroy the company. Perhaps some people might think that would be for the best, but I think it would be a real shame (you know, given that GW is my company of choice...), and it would also dent other wargaming companies in the process. How many people who use other companies now started out playing GW? I'm prepared to bet it's a fair few. And those other companies would not have an increasing market of gamers if there were not GW stores everywhere, letting people know that the hobby exists in the first place.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong, as I'm sure you all will. It's just my $0.02.

I will tell you, Misguidance, that you are Misguided. I've never even seen a GW store, and I didn't even know they existed until joining DakkaDakka. There's what, maybe Five GW stores in the Continental US? Mostly, from what I recall, concentrated in the major cities of the East Coast. That's the majority of a country that's never seen, and never will see, an official Games Workshop store. Maybe it's an issue of European misconceptions of the size of the US, since we're a lot, lot bigger than Europe. It'd take me six to ten hours to get to the nearest GW store, and that's in my own State.

The stores, from what I've heard, are huge money sinks. They don't sell much product, and are primarily used as gaming table repositories. Remove the stores, and you'd probably see a 0% loss of people playing GW games. Replace all those store empolyees with some sort of GW certification to run tournaments and provide demonstrations at FLGs, you're most likely going to gain a lot, since there's probably at least one FLG within half-hour driving distance of most of the towns and cities in the US, and if GW reduced the overhead cost of carrying their products (with the money saved on owning their own stores and all the infrastructure that entails) that would allow FLGs to advertise on their own, if not passing the savings along to their customers.

And on the issue of Websites, from what I can tell, and who I know, the majority of sales of GW products is online, either through eBay or their own website. I go in my FLG week after week, and the boxes of GW product are getting a pretty thick layer of dust, even as people continue to expand their armies or buy new ones.

So yeah. There's my 2 cents as well.

Anvildude wrote:I will tell you, Misguidance, that you are Misguided. I've never even seen a GW store, and I didn't even know they existed until joining DakkaDakka. There's what, maybe Five GW stores in the Continental US? Mostly, from what I recall, concentrated in the major cities of the East Coast. That's the majority of a country that's never seen, and never will see, an official Games Workshop store. Maybe it's an issue of European misconceptions of the size of the US, since we're a lot, lot bigger than Europe. It'd take me six to ten hours to get to the nearest GW store, and that's in my own State.

I'll be honest- I had no idea there were so few GW stores in the US. Here in the UK they exist in most towns and cities, and are much move visible than most other gaming stores.

Misguidance wrote:

Anvildude wrote:I will tell you, Misguidance, that you are Misguided. I've never even seen a GW store, and I didn't even know they existed until joining DakkaDakka. There's what, maybe Five GW stores in the Continental US? Mostly, from what I recall, concentrated in the major cities of the East Coast. That's the majority of a country that's never seen, and never will see, an official Games Workshop store. Maybe it's an issue of European misconceptions of the size of the US, since we're a lot, lot bigger than Europe. It'd take me six to ten hours to get to the nearest GW store, and that's in my own State.

I'll be honest- I had no idea there were so few GW stores in the US. Here in the UK they exist in most towns and cities, and are much move visible than most other gaming stores.

UK is a bad example even for europe... We dont have any GW store and never had one so by your conclusions the hobby would be inexistant in my little European country Portugal..

Anvildude wrote:There's what, maybe Five GW stores in the Continental US?

?!

There's between 5 and 10 ALONE in the Los Angeles area.

Actual games workshop stores in LA, or places that sell GW figs?

Actual Games Workshop stores.

Weird. It looks like the LA locations are the nearest ones to where I live, a coupel states away (by the store finder on the GW site). And then there's this massive concentration of them.

Yeah, its LA...

It's a shame, the models are getting more and more impressive, yet the gameplay is suffering and the best rules writers are leaving or becoming Black Library writers instead. GW truly is at an impasse, do they continue their current path of maximum profits to absolve themselves of debts (which they achieved this last year) or do they decide that the stone has been wrung for enough blood and start lowering prices?

Airsoft will run you over $300 (US) for a decent gun, battery, and charger. Then you have to get BBs, goggles or a face mask, and possibly tactical gear. It's really easy to drop $500+ on that. Same deal with paintball.

World of Warcraft costs something like $140 just to get all the expansions, plus a $15 monthly fee. A year of WoW will cost you around $200.]

Video games run $40-60. How many offer hundreds of hours of enjoyment? Very few, so you'll probably buy several over the course of a year, oh, and you need a computer or console to play them on...

HOBBIES ARE EXPENSIVE

Try collecting militaria. Numbers matching, 1938 dated Luger? $2800. Or how about a WWII era US Navy Cross? $700-$850. WWII German Iron Cross Second Class (something that was awarded over 2 million times)? $150. Granted, this hobby has great scarcity in it, but it also has massive amounts of supply and demand. I have similar items to these, and I can't "play" with them, they sit in a sealed safe as to not deteriorate.

Collecting sports cards? How about a 1/1 Tom Brady autographed card for $999 on eBay? How about 2010 Topps Five Star? For 5 football cards costs $515

I would consider wargaming a monopolistic competition more than outright monopoly. If they had a true monopoly (which really isn't possible since they're a niche market and a luxury item), their price increases wouldn't allow for anyone to go to any competition.

Amaya wrote:Airsoft will run you over $300 (US) for a decent gun, battery, and charger. Then you have to get BBs, goggles or a face mask, and possibly tactical gear. It's really easy to drop $500+ on that. Same deal with paintball.

World of Warcraft costs something like $140 just to get all the expansions, plus a $15 monthly fee. A year of WoW will cost you around $200.]

Video games run $40-60. How many offer hundreds of hours of enjoyment? Very few, so you'll probably buy several over the course of a year, oh, and you need a computer or console to play them on...

HOBBIES ARE EXPENSIVE

The most expensive one you mention is *still* cheaper than a 1500 point (unpainted!) army. And you can get an airsoft gun for half that (My ex roommate bought a full basic setup for 200$), nobody is going to exclude you from the game because you bought a POS Chinese electric.

Stormrider wrote:Try collecting militaria. Numbers matching, 1938 dated Luger? $2800. Or how about a WWII era US Navy Cross? $700-$850. WWII German Iron Cross Second Class (something that was awarded over 2 million times)? $150. Granted, this hobby has great scarcity in it, but it also has massive amounts of supply and demand. I have similar items to these, and I can't "play" with them, they sit in a sealed safe as to not deteriorate.

Collecting sports cards? How about a 1/1 Tom Brady autographed card for $999 on eBay? How about 2010 Topps Five Star? For 5 football cards costs $515

I would consider wargaming a monopolistic competition more than outright monopoly. If they had a true monopoly (which really isn't possible since they're a niche market and a luxury item), their price increases wouldn't allow for anyone to go to any competition.

You're specifically mentioning some of the most expensive items in that hobby, I can get collectable military rifles for *less* than a hundred dollars (though, without the C&R the shipping would put the price back up there). I can get a pack of football cards for 3$ (ok, the price on those has probably gone up, but I used too). These aren't as nice as the ultra expensive things you mention, but the minimum cost to participate is way way lower than the cost to buy the most expensive stuff.

You can get a 1500 point army for under $300.

The cheapest GW sells figs for is ~25 cents per point, that comes to 525$ There are used options, but airsoft and video games have used options too.


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Oh, don't forget the books, that's about another 80, pushing the price to field an unpainted army up over 600$.

Requia wrote:The cheapest GW sells figs for is ~25 cents per point, that comes to 525$ There are used options, but airsoft and video games have used options too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, don't forget the books, that's about another 80, pushing the price to field an unpainted army up over 600$.

2 boxes of Khorne Berserkers, 3 Chaos Land Raiders, Chaos Space Marines Codex = $281.

Convert one Berserker to Kharn and you have a decent 1500 point army.

Try again.

Hmm, interesting.

OK, for CSM you can field an army for less than 300$

I'll come back to that argument in 6 months or so when you start getting 5 berserkers for 33$ instead of 12.

Oh and here's another.

2 Warbosses, Ork Army Book, 6 boxes of Nobz, 3 Battlewagons = $405.
Makes a 1925 point army.

All with 4+/5+ saves, WS5, and at least 2 wounds.

Might want to double check on that one, a bunch of the Ork boxes just had the number of models slashed.

I just totaled the cost up on their website.

Requia wrote:

Amaya wrote:Airsoft will run you over $300 (US) for a decent gun, battery, and charger. Then you have to get BBs, goggles or a face mask, and possibly tactical gear. It's really easy to drop $500+ on that. Same deal with paintball.

World of Warcraft costs something like $140 just to get all the expansions, plus a $15 monthly fee. A year of WoW will cost you around $200.]

Video games run $40-60. How many offer hundreds of hours of enjoyment? Very few, so you'll probably buy several over the course of a year, oh, and you need a computer or console to play them on...

HOBBIES ARE EXPENSIVE

The most expensive one you mention is *still* cheaper than a 1500 point (unpainted!) army. And you can get an airsoft gun for half that (My ex roommate bought a full basic setup for 200$), nobody is going to exclude you from the game because you bought a POS Chinese electric.

Stormrider wrote:Try collecting militaria. Numbers matching, 1938 dated Luger? $2800. Or how about a WWII era US Navy Cross? $700-$850. WWII German Iron Cross Second Class (something that was awarded over 2 million times)? $150. Granted, this hobby has great scarcity in it, but it also has massive amounts of supply and demand. I have similar items to these, and I can't "play" with them, they sit in a sealed safe as to not deteriorate.

Collecting sports cards? How about a 1/1 Tom Brady autographed card for $999 on eBay? How about 2010 Topps Five Star? For 5 football cards costs $515

I would consider wargaming a monopolistic competition more than outright monopoly. If they had a true monopoly (which really isn't possible since they're a niche market and a luxury item), their price increases wouldn't allow for anyone to go to any competition.

You're specifically mentioning some of the most expensive items in that hobby, I can get collectable military rifles for *less* than a hundred dollars (though, without the C&R the shipping would put the price back up there). I can get a pack of football cards for 3$ (ok, the price on those has probably gone up, but I used too). These aren't as nice as the ultra expensive things you mention, but the minimum cost to participate is way way lower than the cost to buy the most expensive stuff.

Certainly, do we consider Games Workshop product a top-of-the-line product or not? I do in some respects, (PP has some excellent models and some very interesting rules, but I personally have no interest in collecting or playing Warmachine/Hordes) but in others they are lacking (balance, corporate maneuvers in the last 2 years, other parts of the hobby).

I presume you speak of a Mosin-Nagant 91/30 for less than $100? I've seen far too many of those damn things, gun dealers around here can't give them away.

I can tell you why the tools paint glue ect cost so much,
you pay a PREMIUM FOR THE CITADEL LABEL!
You can get more for less at other model shops and different
companys!

Hi all.
Well if you compare prices like for like.
EG just stay in the minature wargames market.

Mantic RESIN Undead cavalry £2.50.(Full regiment of 10 for £25.)

Games workshop metal riders and '1992' plastic undead horse, £7.70 or £8.70 for command models.(Full regiment of 10 for £80.)

Mantic plastic undead warriors , elite warriors , zombies, ghouls can all be purchased NEW for 50p each or less!(60 minatures for £30!)

Games workshop Skeletons, (£31.00 for 20) Grave guard (£41.00 for 20) zombies (£18.50 for 20) ghouls (£31.00 for 20.)

Mantics Alternative Undead Warhost, £30 for 20 skeletons , 20 elite skeletons and 20 ghouls, would cost £103 from GW!
And Mantics rules and army lists are free to down load....

Games Workshop PLC charge so much money for thier products because they have an out of date buisness strategy that fails to work, but they continue to pick the path of easiest options ,(raise the retail prices.)As they have let the option to correct the errors pass them by , and correcting them now would hurt short term sales.

GW plc have locked themselves into long slow decline, due to the incompetance of the corperate managers who do not understand thier products, thier buisness, or thier potential customer base.

TTFN

Why do they charge so much?

Because in a capitalist style economy, they charge what their target market will pay, and they can get it, too.

People complain, but they keep buying stuff at those prices, so the prices stay up.

(*NOT everyone knows how (or is able) to buy from overseas retailers to save money.)

Uh, people are *not* continuing to pay GW prices, GW sales revenue is falling despite the price hikes.

Games workshop raises the prices cus they know that the people playing it now won't just leave. Will people stop driving cars if the price of gas goes higher? most people go with it, and few will leave. thats just the way it is. And the more the people leave, the higher the price goes up to make up for the people who have left.

But if fuel prices hiked as much, as quickly as GW product did, yes, people would stop driving. It's been suggested that as soon as fuel prices in the US hit $4.50 a Gallon or so, we'll start seeing significant drops in the number of cars on the road. There is a point where a person will say 'Screw it, I'm walking' instead of paying for the gas, and there's a point where gamers will say 'Screw it, I'm buying from someone else' instead of buying overpriced models for an undersupported game. I've already hit that point, and if I wasn't so eager to scratchbuild, I'd probably never have gotten into the game.

Eh.

If you like the system but dislike the price just play smaller scale engagements.

I have had a helluva time recently playing Necromunda with some friends around the shop.

Requia wrote:Weird. It looks like the LA locations are the nearest ones to where I live, a coupel states away (by the store finder on the GW site). And then there's this massive concentration of them.

That is because they are concentrated where the population is concentrated, in major urban areas.

Requia wrote:Uh, people are *not* continuing to pay GW prices, GW sales revenue is falling despite the price hikes.

Yes, and it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. The corporate edifice that is GW is slowly disappearing up its own sphincter.

chromedog wrote:

Requia wrote:Uh, people are *not* continuing to pay GW prices, GW sales revenue is falling despite the price hikes.

Yes, and it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. The corporate edifice that is GW is slowly disappearing up its own sphincter.

I think they could in theory make more profit by reducing prices and increasing the volume of sales. But I would guess the threshold for that is not a small amount of money away, they would have to reduce prices substantially. They have been on the road of increasing prices to combat falling sales for too long now, people would not swarm to them for the sake of a few quid. As the biggest wargames manufacturer out there they could in theory lead the miniature market in mass production rather than continually make themselves the most premium of wargames manufacturers but it requires a total rethink of everything. They should be able to turn economy to scale to their advantage IMO.

I would imagine something of this magnitude would only happen if GW were sold off and there was the investment for an overhaul. The current management can only run with what they have been doing for years because while they make money and keep the company afloat one year to the next, they can't break out of the cycle of using price increases to combat falling sales. Their profits are fairly marginal which doesn't give flexibility to change strategy, and the continual price increases above inflation are ultimately unsustainable which will lead to a gradual decline.

The Hobbit should give them a big lift. They need to use that to break out of the current cycle of decline.

The basic problem with GW (IMO) is that they have continually ballsed up the way they market the products.

Their only method of marketing is the retail chain, which is extremely expensive and keeps being mishandled.

They have spent several years in various re-organisations of the way they do retail. The latest results are that they lost 4% sales in the second half of 2010 due to "lack of trained staff at retail" (their half year report's words). The shop windows are full of grey, unpainted models, sometimes not even assembled.

Only the flagship shops are able to put on a good display, run intro games and painting lessons and so on.

They should do well from the Hobbit assuming that they get all the licences sorted. I'm surprised they still give LOTR such support, I assume they have been stringing that out specifically for the Hobbit, because without that the LOTR range has no future.

As for marketing, well they never advertise for a start. I can't think of another company the size of GW that doesn't advertise their stuff. All the GW related adverts out there are from Black Library and third party licensed computer games.

The LOTR Battle Games magazine was much better handled, GW didn't seem to turn that to their advantage.

Have you ever been to a dedicated modelling store? GW prices make those prices look pretty high.

They vary, in my experience. See below.

Perhaps it is different in the USA.

Rhino £20.50
M113A2 Academy 1/35 Weapons carrier £16.33
M113 Tamiya 1/35 Vietnam version £17.50
M113 Academy 1/35 Gulf War £22.45
M113 Tamiya 1/35 Gulf War version £27.99

Land Raider £38.50
M2 Bradley Academy 1/35 £14.29
M2 Bradley Tamiya 1/35 £24.99
M2A2 Bradley Tamiya 1/35 Gulf War £38.99

Chimaera £20.50
BMP-2D Zvezda 1/35 £18.99

Requia wrote:Hmm, interesting.

OK, for CSM you can field an army for less than 300$

I'll come back to that argument in 6 months or so when you start getting 5 berserkers for 33$ instead of 12.

What's the probability of GW creating a new mold just to spite CSM players (because one sprue builds 4 Berzerkers)? I would say low.

Look at any hobby. Golf, shooting, fishing. They all cost a lot of moeny to do. Just like our hobby. If you like what you do, you willl pay to do it.

BloodAngles_Chris wrote:Look at any hobby. Golf, shooting, fishing. They all cost a lot of moeny to do. Just like our hobby. If you like what you do, you willl pay to do it.

Yeah, IMO the cost only gets ridiculous once you start building beyond 2 armies. Some of the army populations I've seen here are absolutely insane (3 armies at 30k points? How do you store all of those models?!)

ph34r wrote:The thing is, there is no proof that lowering prices would get enough people into the game.

Think about it, if GW has a profit margin of 50% on a $40 box, and they lower it, they are losing $5 from their $20 profit, or 25%. Now it will take them 33% more people buying the product to stay even.

Do you think a price drop of 12.5% will make 33% more people get into the game?

I didn't think so.


Keep in mind these numbers are not official, but they show a point. Even if you disregard profit margin, I don't think that lowering prices would gain enough new players to make up for it.

Maybe not new players, but I would but a lot more models if they were cheaper.

BloodAngles_Chris wrote:Look at any hobby. Golf, shooting, fishing. They all cost a lot of moeny to do. Just like our hobby. If you like what you do, you willl pay to do it.

ANd the companies that make it KNOW you're willing to pay, and will try to charge as much as the market can bear. Which for luxury goods is quite high.

BloodAngles_Chris wrote:Look at any hobby. Golf, shooting, fishing. They all cost a lot of moeny to do. Just like our hobby. If you like what you do, you willl pay to do it.

I don't think it's wrong to say that other hobbies are more expensive, but GW are rather expensive compared to other manufacturers within the same niche hobby.

Kilkrazy wrote:The Hobbit should give them a big lift. They need to use that to break out of the current cycle of decline.

The basic problem with GW (IMO) is that they have continually ballsed up the way they market the products.

Their only method of marketing is the retail chain, which is extremely expensive and keeps being mishandled.

They have spent several years in various re-organisations of the way they do retail. The latest results are that they lost 4% sales in the second half of 2010 due to "lack of trained staff at retail" (their half year report's words). The shop windows are full of grey, unpainted models, sometimes not even assembled.

Only the flagship shops are able to put on a good display, run intro games and painting lessons and so on.

I dunno, the GW shop I go to, a small space in the corner of a mall, has several well-painted armies on display, puts in time for painting lessons, and often sets up events. They only have 3 tables and a painting table....small space, but they run it well, by far the best "nerdy-hobby" shop I've been to.

Kilkrazy wrote:The Hobbit should give them a big lift. They need to use that to break out of the current cycle of decline.

The basic problem with GW (IMO) is that they have continually ballsed up the way they market the products.

Their only method of marketing is the retail chain, which is extremely expensive and keeps being mishandled.

They have spent several years in various re-organisations of the way they do retail. The latest results are that they lost 4% sales in the second half of 2010 due to "lack of trained staff at retail" (their half year report's words). The shop windows are full of grey, unpainted models, sometimes not even assembled.

Only the flagship shops are able to put on a good display, run intro games and painting lessons and so on.

I disagree, the one in the centre of Glasgow is pretty well run, theres always somebody on shift that knows what they are doing, be it painting, selling, modelling or even gaming. Theres even 2 staff members(part timers funnily enough) that do all 4 decently.

The displays are full of fully painted models, onlt the one near the back are filled with unfinished but partially painted models.

Also they arnt as a hard seller as some people make them out to be, the 1st thing they asked when i walked in was if i played, not if i needed help but if i played. Then it goes down 1 of 3 paths, needing help, painting or tutorial game.

Not only that but if your looking to start a new army they just dont go "oh get the £50 starter kit" they find out how much you can actually spend and create a starter around that (depends on staff member).

The only thing i hate about the GW in Glasgow is that one week you could see one person and not see them again due to being placed else where, and some of them were pretty awesome imo.

I'd also be pretty put out by the "close the retail stores" line. My local GW is 15 minutes from home and it's where I do all of my hobby work. No store = no further interest in the hobby for me.

Unless one of the "Lions of Capitalism" that can run a hobby store better want to come to Westminster Maryland and open a store.

Prices: If the item has value to me, I'll be it in a matter that I feel gives me maximum value. Be it from my local shop, the Warstore, eBay or somewhere else.

No doubt central Glasgow is a flagship store.

The Plaza, Oxford Street is also well appointed and staffed. It is a flagship store.

It's the little one man shops which are suffering.

Lanrak wrote:Mantic RESIN Undead cavalry £2.50.(Full regiment of 10 for £25.)

Games workshop metal riders and '1992' plastic undead horse, £7.70 or £8.70 for command models.(Full regiment of 10 for £80.)

Which undead cavalry are you referring to? I'm seeing undead cavalry from mantic at £25 for 5 = £5 each.
http://www.manticgames.com/Shop-Home/Undead/Cavalry/Product/Undead-Revenant-Cavalry-10-Figures.html

Scott-S6 wrote:

Lanrak wrote:Mantic RESIN Undead cavalry £2.50.(Full regiment of 10 for £25.)

Games workshop metal riders and '1992' plastic undead horse, £7.70 or £8.70 for command models.(Full regiment of 10 for £80.)

Which undead cavalry are you referring to? I'm seeing undead cavalry from mantic at £25 for 5 = £5 each.
http://www.manticgames.com/Shop-Home/Undead/Cavalry/Product/Undead-Revenant-Cavalry-10-Figures.html

That link is for a 10 model box for 25 L.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

BloodAngles_Chris wrote:Look at any hobby. Golf, shooting, fishing. They all cost a lot of moeny to do. Just like our hobby. If you like what you do, you willl pay to do it.

I don't think it's wrong to say that other hobbies are more expensive, but GW are rather expensive compared to other manufacturers within the same niche hobby.

At least wargaming is only expensive to buy into - the cost of continuing to play is very low. There are plenty of hobbies with a high cost for activity - I pay approx £30-40 for a day's airsofting (excluding travel) while a day's wargaming only costs me refreshments.


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Requia wrote:That link is for a 10 model box for 25 L.

That's what I get for not looking carefully enough!

Hi Scott-S6.
The 'GW hobby' is expencive to buy into.
Wargaming can be VERY inexpencive.

Eg
Full thrust rules Free down load.
12 space ships from EM4 minatures £2.50.


If you get to use a GW store for your gaming - hobbying , then you are getting the additional value you pay extra for.(The £60 million pound +, overheads of the chain of B&M stores has to be recovered from somewhere... )

Thats why GW charge so much.

TTFN

Why does GW charge so much? Its probably been said, but the simple answer is, they want to make money.

firmlog wrote:Why does GW charge so much? Its probably been said, but the simple answer is, they want to make .....

Shareholder Profit.

If this was a privately-run company, the owners may well try to keep the profit for investing in a better company.
When it floated on the market, all that incentive disappeared to the shareholders.

As someone who's worked in injection molding and plastics production, this stuff is just plain expensive to do. The tooling for a new sprue looks something like this, and a new kit will obviously involve several sprues.



That tool also needs to be regularly taken apart and cleaned, a process which takes a group of engineers up to four hours depending on its complexity.

Companies like Tamiya can do this at slightly lower cost thanks to cheap labor, low variety and large volume.

There ya go. For all the variety and quantity GW pumps out, they're probably using multiple tons of aluminium, there's the engineers they need to keep on the payroll, and of course they need to replace the popular sprue molds every so often so that they don't wear out and get all flashy.

When these threads crop up it is always said that gaming is a niche hobby.

Does this actually mean anything?
Even stamp collecting is not universally enjoyed by all and sundry.

Candle making is hardly ubiquitous. I personally know of no one that is a train spotter.
Though "Choo Choo" Charlie three doors down thinks he is the Flying Scotsman.

I know I'm going to get lambasted for this, but while GW prices ARE going up, so are the costs for most games. Have any of you played Settlers of Catan? When it first came out, I got a copy for 20 bucks, brand new. Now it's 45 for that same copy. M:TG used to be 7.95 for a starter deck, 2.25 for a booster pack. Now it's 12.95 and 3.99 respectively. These are just two examples I'm throwing out because I know they're well known/popular and they've increased dramatically over the last ten years. Magic has gone up almost 50% since 2000 (Rath Cycle @ 2.25) and Settlers has gone up at least 55%! It isn't just GW-yes, they do charge a lot, and prices have gone up quite a bit-I hate the high prices, but it isn't JUST GW doing it. Look around and even ask your local retailers about other prices that have gone up. GW just does it in small increments each year, other companies just inflate costs all at once instead of easing you into it. I'm not trying to be a GW sympathizer, I just recognize that other companies are doing it too. GW is just getting the biggest blame.

Out of curiosity I did a Stock check on games workshop (they trade on the london stock excahnge under GAW if anyone is intrested) and they apearently trade at 362 a share. Not too shabby except they dropped off of the "christmas season" when they were at 468 a share.

GW gets it in the neck more than others simply because there are more people sitting at keyboards discussing them.

I thought Settlers were a '60's group and or an anti-acid tablet for curing dispepsyia. (or indigestion in case I have the wrong spelling.)


As for share prices it all depends when you take your base point from.
Looking at a 5 year chart they have recovered somewhat especially after the crash from a couple of years back.
But a longer view shows an overall decline.

Hi all.
Well just to adress the people trying to excuse GWplc price rises...

First of all plastic injection moulding is generaly used where economies of scale make it most profitable.
As the more you sell the cheaper the overall cost.
This is why most plastic manufacture is high volume production, with LOWER cost per finished item ,than metal or resin casting.

(Most other companies selling multipose 28mm plastic minatures for an average of 50p each!)

So making expensive moulds for injection plastic moulding, for 'premuim priced items' that artificialy restrict sales is NOT cost effective.(Gold Swords for example.)

So used efficiently , plastic injection moulding could let GW sell more minatures at a cheaper price, and STILL make more profit...

Over the last 10 years the average increase in retail prices has been at the rate of inflation for this 10 year period.
This is about 35%.
Eg if it cost £10 in 2001 , it cost about £13.50 now.

GWs turn over has grown at the rate of inflation , (about 35%) over the last 10 years.

However , GW has raised its retail prices by about 130% on average over the same 10 year period.

Eg if it cost £10 in 2001 it costs about £23 now.

The MASSIVE increse in retail price over the rate of inflation has reduces the GW customer base , at a faster rate then the increse in retail price can compensate for.(This is why they have reported a drop of 4% in sales volume.)

If GW had continued to sell the same amount of stuf as it did back in 2001, they would have turned over about £80 million extra this year.

GW plc are in seriuos trouble, they have relied on increacing retail prices to hide falling sales volumes .But now increasing prices is accellerating the loss of sales volues faster than they can compensate for.
So prepare for more heinous wallet rape when visiting GW plc retail outlets from now on...

Justify it how you feel you are able too, but more and more people can not.

TTFN

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
Well just to adress the people trying to excuse GWplc price rises...

First of all plastic injection moulding is generaly used where economies of scale make it most profitable.
As the more you sell the cheaper the overall cost.
This is why most plastic manufacture is high volume production, with LOWER cost per finished item ,than metal or resin casting.

(Most other companies selling multipose 28mm plastic minatures for an average of 50p each!)

So making expensive moulds for injection plastic moulding, for 'premuim priced items' that artificialy restrict sales is NOT cost effective.(Gold Swords for example.)

So used efficiently , plastic injection moulding could let GW sell more minatures at a cheaper price, and STILL make more profit...

Over the last 10 years the average increase in retail prices has been at the rate of inflation for this 10 year period.
This is about 35%.
Eg if it cost £10 in 2001 , it cost about £13.50 now.

GWs turn over has grown at the rate of inflation , (about 35%) over the last 10 years.

However , GW has raised its retail prices by about 130% on average over the same 10 year period.

Eg if it cost £10 in 2001 it costs about £23 now.

The MASSIVE increse in retail price over the rate of inflation has reduces the GW customer base , at a faster rate then the increse in retail price can compensate for.(This is why they have reported a drop of 4% in sales volume.)

If GW had continued to dell the same amount of stuf as it did back in 2001, they would have turned over about £80 million extra this year.

GW plc are in seriuos trouble, they have relied on increacing retail prices to hide falling sales volumes .But now increasing prices is accellerating the loss of sales volues faster than they can compensate for.
So prepare for more heinous wallet rape when visiting GW plc retail outlets from now on...

Justify it how you feel you are able too, but more and more people can not.

TTFN

As an employer, they have an obligation to retain staff. That requires keeping stores open. It also makes sense to try and retain as many stores as possible, once the market begins to recover, as being slow to act in a period of recovery can seriously cripple any attempt by an indiviual company to recover.

1 store pays:

Ground rent
Business rates - An absolute killer. This is paid on a store basis, not a company basis.
Council tax
Utility
Insurance
Wages, Insurance, Matched pensions (If they do one)
Stock (not just rolling stock)
Site Charges (shopping centre overhead)
PRS ( DIE! DIE! DIE! SCREW OFF AND DIE YOU AWFUL PEOPLE! - I dislike PRS.)

It's a metric gashton.

Not every store is going to sell that much, if stock is cheaper, it's going to have to sell more, or make a bigger loss.

So on a store by store basis, they're in just as bad a place as everyone else, with the handicap of being a bit of a niche market seller.

Then there's the company.

Publication - white dwarf. All the licensing fees. Committing to a long term print in order to print the volumes they do is expensive. Distro is expensive. Staff. Writers, HR, HMRC. Site and site services. I imagine the site would cost on it's own £400k a year, and that's based on business park rent where I live up north. Further south and it's a bit more pricey). Materials - subsidised canteen and all the associate costs. Ground rent on a car park outside the building ( not included in ground rent for almost any premises!)

Production - Sculptors, artists and thier HR, HMRC etc. Time lost when projects are scrapped or put on hold. Time waiting licensing on anything resembling anyone elses product. Legal fees. Foundry. Staff wages and HMRC - Insurance ( KILLER for manufacturing!) Materials ( A lot of them, you need to buy years ahead in some cases just to secure material - I was a planner for Corus - it's what I did!) Site costs, disposal, emmisions charges, training charges. Stock loss (it happens, doesn;t matter how perfect your system is) Haulage and logistics. Import and export ( you can't zero rate VAT on everything you export - mostly just EU and even then just site to site) Legality of your CRNs for exports. Issues with supplier materials and working methods.

Castings! Having the mold cast and machined. Tooling (expensive).


Bleh. Lots more I've missed. A drop in prce at the end means an increase of cost in everything that came before it. Are you really willing to risk the jobs of all the above just to pay a little less on the box of toy soldiers that, even if the price was reduced, you wouldn't buy nearly enough of to justify the reduction in cost?

If you have, say £40 a month to spend, you're probably only going to spend that amount. If you want more for that money, it isn't going to happen. It's too big a risk for any company to drop prices when they'd be giving you more, but only recieveing the same amount of money in return.

Too much going on in brain. If anyone requires an elaboration, please let me know.

Phayse wrote:
As an employer, they have an obligation to retain staff. That requires keeping stores open....

You make some very valid points were it not undermined by the fact that GW has spent the last year or so laying staff off and reducing stores to one man operations in an effort to drastically cut costs and make up for falling sales.

filbert wrote:

Phayse wrote:
As an employer, they have an obligation to retain staff. That requires keeping stores open....

You make some very valid points were it not undermined by the fact that GW has spent the last year or so laying staff off and reducing stores to one man operations in an effort to drastically cut costs and make up for falling sales.

I lost my job at Corus because The government gave it's bail out package to a middle of the chain entity in Jaguar. The loss of my job allowed people on the shop floor to keep theirs a little longer. Translated to GW, a one man store is still better than no store at all. You can only trim the fat in the manufacturing process so much before you have to start axeing staff. At least GW has only been reducing in the last year or so. In the manufacturing industry it's been going on for half a decade, which by comparison is amazing for a company that's trying to be a manufacturer, publiisher and retailer all at once. Most organisations are only one of those.

Rubbish, but true.

Still, I agree, it does blunt my point.

Anvildude wrote:... of course they need to replace the popular sprue molds every so often so that they don't wear out and get all flashy.

So, when can we expect them to start doing this?


King Ghidorah

Ghidorah wrote:

Anvildude wrote:... of course they need to replace the popular sprue molds every so often so that they don't wear out and get all flashy.

So, when can we expect them to start doing this?


King Ghidorah

When the money's there.

Phayse wrote:If you have, say £40 a month to spend, you're probably only going to spend that amount. If you want more for that money, it isn't going to happen. It's too big a risk for any company to drop prices when they'd be giving you more, but only recieveing the same amount of money in return.

You are ignoring an important point here:

1. It is possible for GW to have increased price beyond the spending limit of its customer.
2. It is possible for GW to have increased price beyond the psychological spending limit of its customer - this can be a funny thing... as something as low as a $5 difference can make or break that self-justification for purchasing.

Example:

Recently, I was looking at the Storm Raven model. It is IMHO very ugly, and the discussions on Dakka made me want to convert it into something better looking.

Disclaimer: It is incompatible with my non-space-vampire-space-men...
Disclaimer part 2: I have around 5000 points of non-special-space-men. Non-special-space-men that need flying BAWKSES they can't ride in.

Not knowing the price - in my mind, I was really hoping that it was priced around $35-45 CDN, as I wanted 2 or 3, just for "cool points" in Apoc. Knowing GW, I figured it'd be closer to $60 - but I would probably still break down and buy one to kit-bash for a display. $60 was the absolute limit I would pay for it. GW exceeded all my expectations by making it $80. I puttered around the store heeing and hawing to myself, as I really wanted to kit-bash the model - but I couldn't break that $60 value that I had set for this particular kit. $65, in my mind was a bit overpriced, $70 was definitely overpriced, and $80 was in my mind, completely out of line!

If I could use it in a game, and it was a proven to enhance gameplay, with substantial gnashing of teeth I think might be able to bring myself to spend $70, but at $60+, buying multiples on a whim would be out of the question.

So, using the 76% profit formula:
At $45, they'd make $25/model, and they would have sold me, 2 - possibly 3, netting $50-$75 profit.
At $60, they'd make $40/model and they would have sold me 1, netting $40 profit.
At $80, they'd make $60/model, but didn't sell any to me, thereby netting $0 profit, (actually, NEGATIVE profit in a brick and mortar store, as the product sits on the shelf tying up capital and taking up valuable display space.)

keezus wrote:Not knowing the price - in my mind, I was really hoping that it was priced around $35-45 CDN, as I wanted 2 or 3, just for "cool points" in Apoc. Knowing GW, I figured it'd be closer to $60 - but I would probably still break down and buy one to kit-bash for a display. $60 was the absolute limit I would pay for it. GW exceeded all my expectations by making it $80. I puttered around the store heeing and hawing to myself, as I really wanted to kit-bash the model - but I couldn't break that $60 value that I had set for this particular kit. $65, in my mind was a bit overpriced, $70 was definitely overpriced, and $80 was in my mind, completely out of line!

You were hoping the Stormraven would be cheaper than a box of Tactical Space Marines? Instead of say, in the same price range as the Valkyrie/Land Raider. Really?

I'm sorry but that just wasn't very realistic

We would all like GW to charge less for their toys, but unfortunately this mythical threshold where (enough) people stop buying hasn't been reached yet.

Hi TBD.
If the point 'where enough people have stopped buying' has not been reached.
Why did GW plc issue a profits warning stateing a 4% DROP in sales volume ?
(Thats a turn over of £4,6 Million pounds LESS than last year!)

Even though they have put prices up by an average of 10% ...

Putting up prices only compensates a diminishing customer temporarily , eventualy the price rises deter enough new customer to make the price increase so severe , even established customers can not justify buying a 'few items'.
And then you get a negative spiral of deminishing returns ....

TTFN

The bare bones of it is this:

It is what it is. No amount of postulation on an internet forum is going to change GW strategy, we all have our different ideas as to how the system should work. I thoroughly doubt anyone has the industry know how to make any real positive changes. GW will charge X amount for its product, end of story.

We can all play at CEO as much as we want, or we can accept it and move on. It really is a trivial issue. If you can't afford it, save for it. If you're making sacrifices to afford the hobby, reevaluate your priority.

There's a lot of things that cost a lot of money that rank far higher in the list of priorities! Oil, insurance and homes to name a few, heck, some people are starving on this planet, while we all whinge from cosy homes about the price of toys. I think we might be losin objectivity.

It's healthy to speculate and offer different ways of thinking, but to be honest I think the thread has come to its natural end. We've all had a bit of a vent, and we've all tried to speculate as to why it's so, but to carry on would be like telling each other the sky is blue every five minutes.

GW - 'spensive? Yesh. Yesh yesh yesh. Fair? depends on your income. Going to change? Not on your life, not unless a metric ton of other factors do.

What irks me more is not so much that people complain, it's the amount of people out there that complain about how much it costs, but couldn't give a rats behind if it were to fold tomorrow. They'd just go somewhere else, play something else. Not to tar anyone with that brush, but we all know what people can be like.

I put it to you, that in some ways, Oliver could be percieved as spoilt. He wants more, but only for himself. He didn't ask on behlaf of others.

I like the way my FLGS owner put it: "GW expects you to pay for what the models can do on the board, not what their actually made of"

I can sort of see the logic behind it, better/high points cost/neccessary/auto-take units will invariably be in high demand. Thus, regardless of how much the models actually cost, they will sell.

Tactical marine are a perfect example of this, most new players take them since they get "free" weapon upgrades when you take ten of them. Plus their other stats are good for new players. That's a why a box of 10 costs $37.25, not because it costs alot to make them, because they know it will sell. Same goes for Land Raiders, not because they're the greatest vehicle ever, becuase new players suffer from AV14 is bestest and must be bought in order to guarantee that said Tac marines need an extra tactical metal box to roll around in.

Why do Imperial Guardsmen only come in a box of 10 now (especially for $24.75!?)? Because the entire damn meta is melta/plamsa spam with Chimeras. They used to be in boxes of 20, back when anything with a special weapon was metal (except the flamer). But of course, they don't give you plastic meltas or plasmas in any kind of numbers. So you can buy the metal ones from the website, at $8 for 5, which isn't too bad. But, it's more hassle.

If they get away with it, more power to them.