Hey guys with the reveal of the new of the new grey knights kit and there new HQ choice Lord Kaldor Draigo I decided to do a little digging around for leaked fluff, and whilst I appreciate this might be dated news for some I still think itd be interesting for the people who had there curiosity sparked with the reveal.

* WARNING POTENTIAL SPOILERS *

Basically Im curious as to whats going on at GW hq as this seems to be such a radical departure from everything theyve done so far, to summarize some of the leaked fluff Lord Kaldor Draigo is famous for killing a daemon prince in his first combat action, banishing daemon primarch Mortarion back to the warp, somehow carving the name of the previous supreme grand master Janus into the heart of said daemon primarch, single handedly holding off a daemon horde for two days in real space, killing a daemon prince with a broken sword, Killing one of Khorne's strongest bloodthirsters with little to no weaponry, taking said bloodthirsters axe and reforging it into a sword for his own personal use USING HIS MIND, slaying 6 of Slaanesh's chosen daemonettes, setting fire to Nurgle's garden and slaying countless daemons whilst being trapped in warpspace.

So not only is this guy so badass he can survive in warpspace indefinitely after somehow being cursed there (food / water / shelter ?), he can also be summoned like a warp entity and hes pretty much a one man army. Primarchs afaik are portrayed as these invincible demi gods and yet this dude carved a name into a daemon primarchs heart ?!?!, whilst I understand that the validity of some of these leaks might be suspect surely there must be at least some truth to them. I really just wanted to know if you guys think he sounds a lil ... broken, Im still looking forward to the second wave where the unveil a justicar who seemingly dies from mortal wounds and comes back to life everytime regardless of his injuries.

Cheers guys
C-3

Fluff is fluff, and this guy has a very good PR agent, gets everyone pumped up to meet him....and when he comes out on stage is only 4'6" tall.....

Yeah I agree if he had only done one of these things it would still seem kinda out there, but we are dealing with Chaos and all, maybe he is just a over acheiver.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Fluff is fluff, and this guy has a very good PR agent, gets everyone pumped up to meet him....and when he comes out on stage is only 4'6" tall.....

Yeah I agree if he had only done one of these things it would still seem kinda out there, but we are dealing with Chaos and all, maybe he is just a over acheiver.

Maybe its a stretch but maybe they intend to turn him into 40k's equivalent of WHFB's Valten exalted of Sigmar, or at the very least some kind of physical manifestation of the emperors will / power / essence ? or would that be too rainbows lollipops and sunshine for 40k ?.

In Grey Knights Books, it does take a Grand Master to kill off either a Greater Daemon, Greater Daemon Lord, or even a Deamon Prince. If the 13th Company and even Russ survive in the Wrap, I guess a Supreme Grand Master can survive in as well.

Who wrote the codex? If it's Matt Ward then all your questions are answered.

EDIT: Yup, codex was written by Ward. That should answer all of your questions.

Gavo wrote:Who wrote the codex? If it's Matt Ward then all your questions are answered.

EDIT: Yup, codex was written by Ward. That should answer all of your questions.

who or what is this Matt Ward you speak off ? I see a lot of hate directed towards him and im not totally sure why (Iv'e only been into 40k fluff for about a year), but people seem to make him sound like a Grot in charge of a baneblade when it comes to his ... chauvinistic approach to blowing gak out of proportion.

ChronoCupcake wrote:who or what is this Matt Ward you speak off ?

Depending on who you mean he is one of 2 things:

a). A very poor writer for GW who has a liking for outragously over-the-top fluff, recently responsible for the Blood Angels codex.

b). A very bitter 40k player who's fed up of sharing the same name as the the aforementioned writer, mostly due to all the animosity that's expressed towards the name, i.e. me.

Just to let you know it just a name on the Codex, its really all the developers who test plays and help out with the codex.

wib wrote:

ChronoCupcake wrote:who or what is this Matt Ward you speak off ?

Depending on who you mean he is one of 2 things:

a). A very poor writer for GW who has a liking for outragously over-the-top fluff, recently responsible for the Blood Angels codex.

b). A very bitter 40k player who's fed up of sharing the same name as the the aforementioned writer, mostly due to all the animosity that's expressed towards the name, i.e. me.

Zing

But in all honesty what was so wrong with the Blood angels codex besides Dante suddenly having developed the emotional angst issues of a teen Jrpg protagonist and the Sanguinor being one of the lamest ideas for a hero ever, well actually that does sound kinda cheesy but not as broken as Kaldor Draigo and the dreadknight and this is just the first wave !, at this rate Draigo will turn into some kind of internet meme or oh dear lord imagine Draigo inside a dreadknight ... bricks will be shat ...

Derpgo has no justifiable reason to be so awesome. He is just stupid, but since he is in print and here to stay...

I hope ward catches the Chaos bug and updates a chaos character called Doom Rider. Who when he ran over and mortally wounded a Grey knight was told "I curse you to rot upon terra for eternity."

So Doom Rider jumps back into in the warp and is spat out on terra, Where he proceeded to smash his way into the throne room carves 'Fulgrim' on the emperor's chest, then he destroys a number of hives and kills million of terra's defenders. So much so that even the custodes are now afraid of him.

He also finds and kills Leman Russ in a drinking contest cause you know Slaanesh trumps wolf wolf drinking abilities. Occasionally he finds a way off terra but it is only temporary because Grey Knight (Sue) cursed him. No matter what he does he will eventually end up back there to do donuts, kill people, ejaculate plasma and shout nananana COCAINE!

So am I hired?

Personally I find the way he writes about them to be very amateur, honestly, I'm surprised they don't sparkle. Reading his fluff is like reading online fan-fiction.

The game balance of the Blood Angel Codex I don't really have too much of an issue with and yes, it a collaborative effort so blame cannot be laid at his feet but if that leaked fluff is accurate and Matt Ward wrote it, well I can't say I'm surprised in the slightest.

I subtlety is a rare thing in the 40k universe but there's only so far it can go before it gets ridiculous.

Shaman wrote:Derpgo has no justifiable reason to be so awesome. He is just stupid, but since he is in print and here to stay...

I hope ward catches the Chaos bug and updates a chaos character called Doom Rider. Who when he ran over and mortally wounded a Grey knight was told "I curse you to rot upon terra for eternity."

So Doom Rider jumps back into in the warp and is spat out on terra, Where he proceeded to smash his way into the throne room carves 'Fulgrim' on the emperor's chest, then he destroys a number of hives and kills million of terra's defenders. So much so that even the custodes are now afraid of him.

He also finds and kills Leman Russ in a drinking contest cause you know Slaanesh trumps wolf wolf drinking abilities. Occasionally he finds a way off terra but it is only temporary because Grey Knight (Sue) cursed him. No matter what he does he will eventually end up back there to do donuts, kill people, ejaculate plasma and shout nananana COCAINE!

So am I hired?

Doomrider reminds me of this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaQHKQbXal0 total segway i know but I just had to share

/tg/ already hates Matt Ward for the fluff he wrote into the SM and BA codices, they are going to have a gak fit when Grey Knights are released. When they give examples of why their rage is justified, I really have to wonder why GW lets Matt Ward anywhere near the fluff. They could have their pick of better authors from Black Library, for whom fluffing out a codex would be easier than writing a whole novel.

Can we email Matt ward and call him a feminine cleaning product? Someone find his # and email haha

It's basically a textbook case of a Mary Sue insertion fic.

Athaleon wrote:/tg/ already hates Matt Ward for the fluff he wrote into the SM and BA codices, they are going to have a gak fit when Grey Knights are released. When they give examples of why their rage is justified, I really have to wonder why GW lets Matt Ward anywhere near the fluff. They could have their pick of better authors from Black Library, for whom fluffing out a codex would be easier than writing a whole novel.

Because he loves marines as much as GW does? Marines mean money.

n0t_u wrote:

Athaleon wrote:/tg/ already hates Matt Ward for the fluff he wrote into the SM and BA codices, they are going to have a gak fit when Grey Knights are released. When they give examples of why their rage is justified, I really have to wonder why GW lets Matt Ward anywhere near the fluff. They could have their pick of better authors from Black Library, for whom fluffing out a codex would be easier than writing a whole novel.

Because he loves marines as much as GW does? Marines mean money.

But, Draigo still wants to be a Ultramarine and recognises Marneus Calgar as his spiritual liege.

I kinda avoid reading GW codex fluff. the IA fluff is 10000 times better in my opinion.

n0t_u wrote:Because he loves marines as much as GW does? Marines mean money.

Money lost that is.

I don't see any evidence of increased sales with GW (just less Xenos players) since their focus on Marines. Conversely, in 2nd ed when there was more equal focus they had a huge growth in customer numbers.

ChronoCupcake wrote:banishing daemon primarch Mortarion back to the warp, somehow carving the name of the previous supreme grand master Janus into the heart of said daemon primarch,

Whereas it takes a whole company of Grey Knights and a Chapter Master to send Angron back to the Warp. Now I know Angron is tough, but Mortarion can't be this much of a wuss.

ChronoCupcake wrote:Killing one of Khorne's strongest bloodthirsters with little to no weaponry, taking said bloodthirsters axe and reforging it into a sword for his own personal use USING HIS MIND

Heretic, the Inquisition would like to know about this! Hey, wait a minute ... !?!

and ... and I think ...

xlightscreen wrote:I kinda avoid reading GW codex fluff. the IA fluff is 10000 times better in my opinion.

As do I, the Index Astartes articles made sense and it was great when the Codex's were in line with them and vice versa, now the Codex are getting stupid.

I still think that the fluff in the IA is superior in a lot of regards even though it is older.

Actually it was only a brother captain that killed off Angron. NOT a GM.

As a chaos player, that makes me hate life. According to fluff, Angron would have to be like the strongest fighter ever...I seriously don't think Khorne would even let him lose...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Actually it was only a brother captain that killed off Angron. NOT a GM.

Indeed it was, just read the Codicium Imperialis version of it to refresh my memory but it does seem to be a different one to what I remember.

I remember there being a version where only a single Grey Knight walked away from that fight?

Pilau Rice wrote:

ChronoCupcake wrote:banishing daemon primarch Mortarion back to the warp, somehow carving the name of the previous supreme grand master Janus into the heart of said daemon primarch,

Whereas it takes a whole company of Grey Knights and a Chapter Master to send Angron back to the Warp. Now I know Angron is tough, but Mortarion can't be this much of a wuss.

Mortarion was a wuss even before he ascended to Daemonhood. His real asset was the fact that he could 'step into the shadows', becoming invisible for all intents and purposes.
From what little we've seen describing him after his ascension--he seems to be a more sorcerer styled Daemon Primarch.

Angron, however, is a totally different story--like pretty much all of Khorne's daemons are. You don't have to worry about Khorne daemons possessing large quantities of people, raising the dead for cannon fodder, or any of the shenanigans you see with the rest of the Ruinous Powers and their daemonic infestations. You have to worry about the fact that these are daemons, completely and utterly, intended for ripping you to pieces.

ChronoCupcake wrote:Killing one of Khorne's strongest bloodthirsters with little to no weaponry, taking said bloodthirsters axe and reforging it into a sword for his own personal use USING HIS MIND

Heretic, the Inquisition would like to know about this! Hey, wait a minute ... !?!

and ... and I think ...

What's wrong with a Grey Knight doing something psychic?

xlightscreen wrote:I kinda avoid reading GW codex fluff. the IA fluff is 10000 times better in my opinion.

As do I, the Index Astartes articles made sense and it was great when the Codex's were in line with them and vice versa, now the Codex are getting stupid.

I still think that the fluff in the IA is superior in a lot of regards even though it is older.

I think he's actually talking about Imperial Armour.

There are the unlucky (said daemons), the lucky (daemons who didn't meet Draigo) and the supremely lucky (Draigo). Psychic = Luck

I'm sure for every Daemon he killed, there is a 100 page long background that explains how said daemon met with misfortune due to meddling in too many affairs, being cursed by other Gods, had thier power drained after killing 100 Grey Knights a few hours before, staying in real space for too long, getting hit with imba weaponry before fighting Draigo or just tripping on the rocky outcrop on which the two were dueling (yes, it happens).

Kanluwen wrote:
Mortarion was a wuss even before he ascended to Daemonhood. His real asset was the fact that he could 'step into the shadows', becoming invisible for all intents and purposes.
From what little we've seen describing him after his ascension--he seems to be a more sorcerer styled Daemon Primarch.

His real asset and that of the Death Guard was that they could fight in almost any environment. Not sure if Mortarion would be a sorcerer as he was one of the most vocal Primarchs about Magnus and his use of sorcery. The step into shadows thing is more about how silently he can move, as silent as death I would imagine.

Kanluwen wrote:Angron, however, is a totally different story--like pretty much all of Khorne's daemons are. You don't have to worry about Khorne daemons possessing large quantities of people, raising the dead for cannon fodder, or any of the shenanigans you see with the rest of the Ruinous Powers and their daemonic infestations. You have to worry about the fact that these are daemons, completely and utterly, intended for ripping you to pieces.

True, and I agree. Angron is war given form pretty much but Mortarion is still a Primarch and should be as hard as nails. Angron can dish it out but Mortarion should be able to take it, that's what Nurgle is all about.

Kanluwen wrote:What's wrong with a Grey Knight doing something psychic?

Not so much the psychic part but taking a weapon of the infernal powers and using it against them ... Sounds like the Relictors.

Kanluwen wrote:I think he's actually talking about Imperial Armour.

Never mind, I still think the Index Astartes articles are superior in many ways

Pilau Rice wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:What's wrong with a Grey Knight doing something psychic?

Not so much the psychic part but taking a weapon of the infernal powers and using it against them ... Sounds like the Relictors.

Or like, I don't know... Logan Grimnar(who's Axe was once a Chaos weapon, can't remember if it was a Daemon Weapon or not)? Or the Inquisition(Radicals do it regularly)?

It's far from unheard of outside the Relictors.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Mortarion was a wuss even before he ascended to Daemonhood. His real asset was the fact that he could 'step into the shadows', becoming invisible for all intents and purposes.
From what little we've seen describing him after his ascension--he seems to be a more sorcerer styled Daemon Primarch.

His real asset and that of the Death Guard was that they could fight in almost any environment. Not sure if Mortarion would be a sorcerer as he was one of the most vocal Primarchs about Magnus and his use of sorcery. The step into shadows thing is more about how silently he can move, as silent as death I would imagine.

Actually, he literally could step into the shadows. It's been mentioned in multiple places that he essentially appears from thin air, and that even Magnus didn't spot him using his 'Inner Sight'.

And just because he was 'vocal about Magnus and his use of sorcery' doesn't mean that he wouldn't use it. You have to remember that Mortarion was one of those who was first 'corrupted' by the Lodges. It's likely that he was in on the whole plan to corrupt Horus from the beginning.

Kanluwen wrote:Angron, however, is a totally different story--like pretty much all of Khorne's daemons are. You don't have to worry about Khorne daemons possessing large quantities of people, raising the dead for cannon fodder, or any of the shenanigans you see with the rest of the Ruinous Powers and their daemonic infestations. You have to worry about the fact that these are daemons, completely and utterly, intended for ripping you to pieces.

True, and I agree. Angron is war given form pretty much but Mortarion is still a Primarch and should be as hard as nails. Angron can dish it out but Mortarion should be able to take it, that's what Nurgle is all about.

Yeah, but that might not be what Mortarion is about. He may just be exhibiting an aspect as the 'avatar of Death'.

Kanluwen wrote:What's wrong with a Grey Knight doing something psychic?

Not so much the psychic part but taking a weapon of the infernal powers and using it against them ... Sounds like the Relictors.

Well no, the Relictors didn't purify the weapons before using them. And it's not as uncommon as you might think. There's fluff about the Guard using reclaimed/salvaged armoured vehicles that had been in Chaos hands before, but the Mechanicus and Inquisition do a pretty thorough job purifying the stuff before it ever is considered for frontline use again.

Kanluwen wrote:I think he's actually talking about Imperial Armour.

Never mind, I still think the Index Astartes articles are superior in many ways

Some of them, yeah. Others are just an example of "Bwuh?".

I can accept Draigo beating Mortarion. Two Grey Knight Grand Masters, the best of the best who exist for no reason but to hunt down and kill Daemons, with only one of them surviving the encounter, isn't too much of an outrage.


Razing one of Tzeentch's cities, killing six favoured daemonettes of Slaanesh and burning down the FRIGGIN' GARDEN OF NURGLE, however, just doesn't happen. If he's trapped in the Warp so often, why doesn't the Chaos Gods just step on him? It makes no sense! DOES NOT COMPUTE! ERROR! ERROR!

Platuan4th wrote:
Or like, I don't know... Logan Grimnar(who's Axe was once a Chaos weapon, can't remember if it was a Daemon Weapon or not)? Or the Inquisition(Radicals do it regularly)?

It's far from unheard of outside the Relictors.

Well I never knew about Logans Axe and the radical Inquisitors aren't exactly the flavour of the month with the rest of the Inquisition.

But fair enough.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Razing one of Tzeentch's cities, killing six favoured daemonettes of Slaanesh and burning down the FRIGGIN' GARDEN OF NURGLE, however, just doesn't happen. If he's trapped in the Warp so often, why doesn't the Chaos Gods just step on him? It makes no sense! DOES NOT COMPUTE! ERROR! ERROR!

Makes sense to me. If you're the other gods(who by fluff are always trying to get the upperhand and be the strongest), wouldn't it be in your best interest to distract your rival while someone is busy weakening them and their court? And other than Tzeentch, they're not all knowing.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I can accept Draigo beating Mortarion. Two Grey Knight Grand Masters, the best of the best who exist for no reason but to hunt down and kill Daemons, with only one of them surviving the encounter, isn't too much of an outrage.


Razing one of Tzeentch's cities, killing six favoured daemonettes of Slaanesh and burning down the FRIGGIN' GARDEN OF NURGLE, however, just doesn't happen. If he's trapped in the Warp so often, why doesn't the Chaos Gods just step on him? It makes no sense! DOES NOT COMPUTE! ERROR! ERROR!

I would question how he can burn down the garden and destroy a city when hes only armed with a giant forcesword / stormbolter thingie, but like all other things involving Kaldo Draigo he uses his MIND POWERS ...

Kanluwen wrote:
Actually, he literally could step into the shadows. It's been mentioned in multiple places that he essentially appears from thin air, and that even Magnus didn't spot him using his 'Inner Sight'.

If he is already in the shadows waiting then yeah. Same as him being able to walk around without anyone realising he's there until they notice the Deathshroud. He's like an annoying Butler, I don't think he literally disappears, which seems to me what you are suggesting. With Magnus are you referring to the encounter at Nikaea or Ullanor?

Kanluwen wrote:You have to remember that Mortarion was one of those who was first 'corrupted' by the Lodges. It's likely that he was in on the whole plan to corrupt Horus from the beginning.

Really, where did you get that from? He likes the number seven but never have I heard that he was first corrupted by the Lodges. Typhon was way down the line before Mortarion and that is mentioned.

Kanluwen wrote:
Yeah, but that might not be what Mortarion is about. He may just be exhibiting an aspect as the 'avatar of Death'.

So Mortarion just stood around looking ill and scary? Mortarion was a fighter or that much is said in the IA on the Death Guard. The Legions are supposed to be the embodiment of their Primarch. I haven't read FotE for awhile but isn't he mashing up the Jorghall on their ship with his manreaper?

Kanluwen wrote:
Well no, the Relictors didn't purify the weapons before using them. And it's not as uncommon as you might think. There's fluff about the Guard using reclaimed/salvaged armoured vehicles that had been in Chaos hands before, but the Mechanicus and Inquisition do a pretty thorough job purifying the stuff before it ever is considered for frontline use again.

Wasn't aware of the purifying mention on Draigo, so I concede a little in that regard.

Kanluwen wrote:Some of them, yeah. Others are just an example of "Bwuh?".

A lot less Bwuh then some of the latest fluff. Actually, I don't think there has been an IA that I haven't liked. Even the Blood Ravens one was good.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Actually, he literally could step into the shadows. It's been mentioned in multiple places that he essentially appears from thin air, and that even Magnus didn't spot him using his 'Inner Sight'.

If he is already in the shadows waiting then yeah. Same as him being able to walk around without anyone realising he's there until they notice the Deathshroud. I don't think he literally disappears, which seems to me what you are suggesting. With Magnus are you referring to the encounter at Nikaea or Ullanor?

Nikaea and Ullanor both, then in "False Gods" and "Flight of the Eisenstein" the same general thing was discussed.

Kanluwen wrote:You have to remember that Mortarion was one of those who was first 'corrupted' by the Lodges. It's likely that he was in on the whole plan to corrupt Horus from the beginning.

Really, where did you get that from? He likes the number seven but never have I heard that he was first corrupted by the Lodges. Typhon was way down the line before Mortarion and that is mentioned.

"Flight of the Eisenstein", there's a minor mention of Mortarion handing off a Lodge coin to one of the Word Bearers.

Kanluwen wrote:
Yeah, but that might not be what Mortarion is about. He may just be exhibiting an aspect as the 'avatar of Death'.

So Mortarion just stood around looking ill and scary? Mortarion was a fighter or that much is said in the IA on the Death Guard.

See, now you're just misunderstanding on purpose

Mortarion, while being a fairly capable fighter, was nowhere near top tier like Russ, Angron, The Lion, Sanguinius, or even Horus(Despite what people think: Horus? Not that great of a fighter. He was more of a tactician, always taking the long view rather than focusing on there here and now).

Mortarion was more along the lines of Corax, Alpharius/Omegon or Curze: an expert at exploiting the psychology of an enemy to make the best effect when fighting them.

Kanluwen wrote:
Well no, the Relictors didn't purify the weapons before using them. And it's not as uncommon as you might think. There's fluff about the Guard using reclaimed/salvaged armoured vehicles that had been in Chaos hands before, but the Mechanicus and Inquisition do a pretty thorough job purifying the stuff before it ever is considered for frontline use again.

Wasn't aware of the purifying mention on Draigo, so I concede a little in that regard.

From what I'm recalling: he uses the 'purified' steel from the Bloodthirster's axe to forge himself a new sword.

Kanluwen wrote:Some of them, yeah. Others are just an example of "Bwuh?".

A lot less Bwuh then some of the latest fluff.

Maybe so, but a lot of the latest fluff is a result of a sort of 'paradigm shift' in the way that GW does Codices. No longer do they seemingly have one person doing the rules, another doing the background, and then a third overseeing the operation--but they have one person doing the entirety of the book and then it just gets handed off to the printers.

It's not like banishing Primarchs is anything new. Magnus gets banished twice IIRC. In the Ragnar books and during the Battle of the Fang, where he was defeated by the then Great Wolf of the Space Wolves(who died also).

Kanluwen wrote:
Nikaea and Ullanor both, then in "False Gods" and "Flight of the Eisenstein" the same general thing was discussed.

Will have a scan tonight and get back to you.

Kanluwen wrote:"Flight of the Eisenstein", there's a minor mention of Mortarion handing off a Lodge coin to one of the Word Bearers.

As above

Kanluwen wrote:
See, now you're just misunderstanding on purpose

Not at all, I just didn't get your statement, I got confuzzled by it. It didn't really explain what you meant.

Kanluwen wrote:Mortarion, while being a fairly capable fighter, was nowhere near top tier like Russ, Angron, The Lion, Sanguinius, or even Horus(Despite what people think: Horus? Not that great of a fighter. He was more of a tactician, always taking the long view rather than focusing on there here and now).

Mortarion was more along the lines of Corax, Alpharius/Omegon or Curze: an expert at exploiting the psychology of an enemy to make the best effect when fighting them.

I wouldn't even say that Mortarion is that sort. He is a straight down the middle Primarch. No fancy tactics, no fancy plans. Take the fight to the enemy and ground them down, that's Mortarion and the Death Guard.

Kanluwen wrote:
From what I'm recalling: he uses the 'purified' steel from the Bloodthirster's axe to forge himself a new sword.

Must've really been some good steel

Kanluwen wrote:
Maybe so, but a lot of the latest fluff is a result of a sort of 'paradigm shift' in the way that GW does Codices. No longer do they seemingly have one person doing the rules, another doing the background, and then a third overseeing the operation--but they have one person doing the entirety of the book and then it just gets handed off to the printers.

Suffers for it as well, most of it has been good don't get me wrong, but certain parts are like wtf ...

I wouldn't even say that Mortarion is that sort. He is a straight down the middle Primarch. No fancy tactics, no fancy plans. Take the fight to the enemy and ground them down, that's Mortarion and the Death Guard.

Ehhhh. When Mortarion's not directly in command or the situation necessitated it, yeah I'd agree with that.

When he was directly in command and they weren't just serving as linebreakers--he and his bodyguard tended towards coming onto the field wearing Terminator armour stylized to make them look like a 'barbaric representation of Death'.

He clearly knew what he was doing in that case. It's why he and many of his favored carried scythes, for that matter.

Kanluwen wrote:

I wouldn't even say that Mortarion is that sort. He is a straight down the middle Primarch. No fancy tactics, no fancy plans. Take the fight to the enemy and ground them down, that's Mortarion and the Death Guard.

Ehhhh. When Mortarion's not directly in command or the situation necessitated it, yeah I'd agree with that.

When he was directly in command and they weren't just serving as linebreakers--he and his bodyguard tended towards coming onto the field wearing Terminator armour stylized to make them look like a 'barbaric representation of Death'.

He clearly knew what he was doing in that case. It's why he and many of his favored carried scythes, for that matter.

Come on, the Jorgall tactic was 'shoot torpedos with men in directly into the ship and kill stuff' that's not fancy

Mortarion always used his scythe and 'Lantern' and thats the way the Deathshroud always were armoured. Why give them a name like Douthshroud if you didn't want them to be scary darey.

I'm not sure what we are trying to convince each other of here

Seriously, most people complaining have just heard it third hand or are failing at reading comprehension.

You know he didn't single-handedly defeat Mort, right? Or the first daemon prince? And he almost was killed by the same daemon prince the second time? And that DP banished him to the RoC with a broken sword? And that Draigo spent 'Uncounted ages' levelling up in the RoC doing some of the things he has done.

Remember that time flows differently in the warp. Although he's only been gone for 100 years realtime, it is pretty clear from the fluff on Draigo that it has been thousands of years 'uncounted ages' effective time for him. Think of all the other SM that are thousands of years old and how bad ass they are, he may be older.

With the exception of the heart carving thing, most of Draigo's fluff makes sense if you actually read it.
Is he OTT? Yes. Is 40k meant to be OTT? Yes.

Why does his mini's face look so tired? Because he has walked for eons. He is the archetypal wandering hero, forced to never rest in his pursuit of justice.

Also, the other half of his story is that he is a tragic hero. Nothing he does lasts. Even the burning in Nurgle's garden (which it doesn't say he burns the whole thing, just that he 'unleashes sanctified flame' there and the smoke and screaming carried on the warp winds) and the collapse of the city are quickly erased by the chaos gods.

Why don't they crush him? Two reasons, I think. Nothing he does is permanent in the Realms of Chaos and they probably find perverse enjoyment in the fact that this great champion of order is stuck in their domain for eternity.

pretre wrote:Seriously, most people complaining have just heard it third hand .

Yeah, this is my failing - i'm just going on what I have been told or read on him thus far on the site.

So I can only comment on what I know, maybe it's wrong too, but that's not always fun though is it.

From what I was told his fluff seemed a bit implausible but the more you learn the more it gets ok I guess. Not great, as still don't necessarily agree with it, but ok.

A nice explanation though pretre of what could be

pretre wrote: Even the burning in Nurgle's garden (which it doesn't say he burns the whole thing, just that he 'unleashes sanctified flame' there and the smoke and screaming carried on the warp winds) and the collapse of the city are quickly erased by the chaos gods.

IMO the whole problem is that he managed to get there in the first place, the big four have been fighting since they were created and not even managed to get into the garden of Nurgle. Its like saying he took a stroll up the mountain of skulls and set Khorne's throne on fire....it's just dumb.

Think of all the other SM that are thousands of years old and how bad ass they are, he may be older.

The only other Space Marines that are "thousands of years old" are dreadnoughts. Other than that, I like your post. I personally enjoyed Draigo's fluff. It's nice sometimes seeing an all badass Good character.(even though this has happened a lot lately!)

Gorechild wrote:

pretre wrote: Even the burning in Nurgle's garden (which it doesn't say he burns the whole thing, just that he 'unleashes sanctified flame' there and the smoke and screaming carried on the warp winds) and the collapse of the city are quickly erased by the chaos gods.

IMO the whole problem is that he managed to get there in the first place, the big four have been fighting since they were created and not even managed to get into the garden of Nurgle. Its like saying he took a stroll up the mountain of skulls and set Khorne's throne on fire....it's just dumb.

Eh.

It's not entirely unbelievable. One of the other Ruinous Powers could have been 'guarding' him to use as a cat's paw, or simply put: Nurgle may not have considered him a real threat.

CajunMan wrote:

Think of all the other SM that are thousands of years old and how bad ass they are, he may be older.

The only other Space Marines that are "thousands of years old" are dreadnoughts. Other than that, I like your post. I personally enjoyed Draigo's fluff. It's nice sometimes seeing an all badass Good character.(even though this has happened a lot lately!)

Dante is listed as pretty old. Lysander is 1000+ years old.

Definitely good points for both sides of the argument and I can see the trueness on each side.

Gorechild wrote:Its like saying he took a stroll up the mountain of skulls and set Khorne's throne on fire....it's just dumb.

would be rather awesome though

Kanluwen wrote:

Gorechild wrote:

pretre wrote: Even the burning in Nurgle's garden (which it doesn't say he burns the whole thing, just that he 'unleashes sanctified flame' there and the smoke and screaming carried on the warp winds) and the collapse of the city are quickly erased by the chaos gods.

IMO the whole problem is that he managed to get there in the first place, the big four have been fighting since they were created and not even managed to get into the garden of Nurgle. Its like saying he took a stroll up the mountain of skulls and set Khorne's throne on fire....it's just dumb.

Eh.

It's not entirely unbelievable. One of the other Ruinous Powers could have been 'guarding' him to use as a cat's paw, or simply put: Nurgle may not have considered him a real threat.

I think Kan's right there. I think the chaos gods probably find it amusing or don't care. Imagine you had a GK wandering the RoC and could mess with him however you want... Put all these 'great works' in front of him and let him think he won and then as soon as he turns around, his works are erased.

That's gotta mess with a guy's mind.

Not to mention if Khorne got in the garden, he could do lasting damage, as I imagine that the RoC are divine-malleable. Some mortal? Oh noes, he burned it down, lemme just regrow it and done.

pretre wrote:

CajunMan wrote:

Think of all the other SM that are thousands of years old and how bad ass they are, he may be older.

The only other Space Marines that are "thousands of years old" are dreadnoughts. Other than that, I like your post. I personally enjoyed Draigo's fluff. It's nice sometimes seeing an all badass Good character.(even though this has happened a lot lately!)

Dante is listed as pretty old. Lysander is 1000+ years old.

Dante is the only exception, and he's not thousands of years old. He's around 1100. And he's a Blood Angel, who have longer lives than other Astartes. And Lysander is not 1000+. He was trapped in the Warp. While in realspace 1000 years passed for him it was not nearly that long. Otherwise, he would easily be Chapter Master.

There's actually nothing supporting "Blood Angels have longer lives than other Astartes".

They tend to have a higher average lifespan simply because they withdraw troops from the frontlines constantly to try to rehabilitate/prevent the Black Rage.

Fair enough, although age/tenure doesn't get you auto-promoted. Space Marine's don't have unions.

13th Company are probably older, but are in the same boat as the Traitor Legions. They could be older, they could be younger, it all depends on what goes on in the warp.

Either way though, I think Draigo is effectively much older than the oldest living marine. That might both make him a badass and make him tired as hell.

Kanluwen wrote:

Gorechild wrote:

pretre wrote: Even the burning in Nurgle's garden (which it doesn't say he burns the whole thing, just that he 'unleashes sanctified flame' there and the smoke and screaming carried on the warp winds) and the collapse of the city are quickly erased by the chaos gods.

IMO the whole problem is that he managed to get there in the first place, the big four have been fighting since they were created and not even managed to get into the garden of Nurgle. Its like saying he took a stroll up the mountain of skulls and set Khorne's throne on fire....it's just dumb.

Eh.

It's not entirely unbelievable. One of the other Ruinous Powers could have been 'guarding' him to use as a cat's paw, or simply put: Nurgle may not have considered him a real threat.

I'll admit I've read nothing more about Draigo than I've seen people say here on Dakka (basically every other usefull site is bocked at work ). If it is something like Tzeentch trickery then it might be understandable, but the general impression I've got is that they've just created some bloke out of the blue that completely contradicts the established fluff. Seeing as its written by Ward I haven't really considered that it might be well written and logical

Gorechild, I encourage you to reserve judgement. It is OTT, but it is internally consistent and fits the universe.

Well let me put it like this.

Flies get into my home. Ants get into my home, despite me putting down poison etc.

But...bears, foxes, raccoons, and pandas(the most lethal killers of all!) do not get in.

Why?
Because I do not view flies and ants as a threat. They're a nuisance, at best. An annoyance at worst.

That's all Draigo is to Nurgle. He can't banish or kill Nurgle, and even trying will just be a tickle.

Aww, Kan, we're on the same page. /hugs

I still hate the Dreadknight. With a passion.

It's stupid and makes me want to hit it with a rock.

Kanluwen wrote:I still hate the Dreadknight. With a passion.

It's stupid and makes me want to hit it with a rock.

But would you agree that Paris is the capital of France?

Great! We're in agreement again.

Kanluwen wrote: Why?
Because I do not view flies and ants as a threat. They're a nuisance, at best. An annoyance at worst.

That's all Draigo is to Nurgle. He can't banish or kill Nurgle, and even trying will just be a tickle.

A fly that can carve words into the chest of one of his most powerful minions

pretre wrote:Gorechild, I encourage you to reserve judgement. It is OTT, but it is internally consistent and fits the universe.

I will untill such a time that I can read the book (I really won't be rushing to do so ) and see it all in context. If it is as stupid as it seem's at first glance then I'll just disregard it like I do with some of the other stupid fluff (Mephiston - I'm looking at you!).

Gorechild wrote:

Kanluwen wrote: Why?
Because I do not view flies and ants as a threat. They're a nuisance, at best. An annoyance at worst.

That's all Draigo is to Nurgle. He can't banish or kill Nurgle, and even trying will just be a tickle.

A fly that can carve words into the chest of one of his most powerful minions

Wasn't by himself, he was with the chapter at the time. If the whole (or a large part) of the GK's chapter was wandering around the RoC, Nurgle might be more concerned.

pretre wrote:

Gorechild wrote:

Kanluwen wrote: Why?
Because I do not view flies and ants as a threat. They're a nuisance, at best. An annoyance at worst.

That's all Draigo is to Nurgle. He can't banish or kill Nurgle, and even trying will just be a tickle.

A fly that can carve words into the chest of one of his most powerful minions

Wasn't by himself, he was with the chapter at the time. If the whole (or a large part) of the GK's chapter was wandering around the RoC, Nurgle might be more concerned.

Or the Chaos Gods are too concerned keeping an eye on each other, which is why they use minions to do the Black Crusading and the defiling and the warp fissuring and stuff.

The reason I guess to why he carved the name into Mortarion's heart is because he couldn't do anything better, this is the Primarch that was chosen and exalted by Nurgle, the guy probably could take a Titan stomp in the face and still take a walk around the hood spreading diseased candy all around. So if you can't defeat the bastard, leave a memento.

Still a stupid story, mind you.

Gorechild wrote:

Kanluwen wrote: Why?
Because I do not view flies and ants as a threat. They're a nuisance, at best. An annoyance at worst.

That's all Draigo is to Nurgle. He can't banish or kill Nurgle, and even trying will just be a tickle.

A fly that can carve words into the chest of one of his most powerful minions

Yeah, in realspace.

Mortarion may have, at one point, been flesh and blood--but now he does have to 'obey the laws of the Warp' in a sense. He may leave behind a corporeal body, but it's just formed of the stuff of the Warp either way.

pretre wrote:Gorechild, I encourage you to reserve judgement. It is OTT, but it is internally consistent and fits the universe.

I will untill such a time that I can read the book (I really won't be rushing to do so ) and see it all in context. If it is as stupid as it seem's at first glance then I'll just disregard it like I do with some of the other stupid fluff (Mephiston - I'm looking at you!).

Mephiston has always been over the top though. Even in the BA minidex.

Kanluwen wrote:I still hate the Dreadknight. With a passion.

It's stupid and makes me want to hit it with a rock.

Heh, something that we agree on.

But I think this is my problem with the Draigo fluff as well.

I know that they have to improve the codex and make it better, adding new stuff to it, but just upping everything to 11 and creating uber stuff and uber characters that there has never been a inkling of before makes me cry a little inside. Some of it is getting a little stupid, I think that's my problem. I'm worried that it's going to get even more unbelievable.

And yes, I know this is all in a make believe land, but it's my hobby and interest and something that I enjoy and would like to for many years to come

Vargtass wrote:

pretre wrote:

Gorechild wrote:

Kanluwen wrote: Why?
Because I do not view flies and ants as a threat. They're a nuisance, at best. An annoyance at worst.

That's all Draigo is to Nurgle. He can't banish or kill Nurgle, and even trying will just be a tickle.

A fly that can carve words into the chest of one of his most powerful minions

Wasn't by himself, he was with the chapter at the time. If the whole (or a large part) of the GK's chapter was wandering around the RoC, Nurgle might be more concerned.

Or the Chaos Gods are too concerned keeping an eye on each other, which is why they use minions to do the Black Crusading and the defiling and the warp fissuring and stuff.

The reason I guess to why he carved the name into Mortarion's heart is because he couldn't do anything better, this is the Primarch that was chosen and exalted by Nurgle, the guy probably could take a Titan stomp in the face and still take a walk around the hood spreading diseased candy all around. So if you can't defeat the bastard, leave a memento.

Still a stupid story, mind you.

Eh. I'd say the reason he did it is less "he couldn't do anything better", but more of a calculated insult.

Let's face it. Mortarion, like any other Daemon who isn't properly destroyed and banished, will be back. He just has to recuperate in the Warp.

Kanluwen wrote:Mephiston has always been over the top though. Even in Codex: Angels of Death.

FTFY.

In Codex: AoD, BA were much closer to Vampires, IMHO. They thirsted for blood and howled and that's where Meph got his Transfixing Glare. Meph also 'defeated the Red Thirst' by giving into it as shown by the Special Rule 'Blood Greed': "If Mephiston fails the test he must stop and drink the blood of his enemy."




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pilau Rice wrote:But I think this is my problem with the Draigo fluff as well.

I know that they have to improve the codex and make it better, adding new stuff to it, but just upping everything to 11 and creating uber stuff and uber characters that there has never been a inkling of before makes me cry a little inside. Some of it is getting a little stupid, I think that's my problem. I'm worried that it's going to get even more unbelievable.

And yes, I know this is all in a make believe land, but it's my hobby and interest and something that I enjoy and would like to for many years to come

Do you like Lysander, Ghaz, Yarrick? Heck, any of the characters in 5th edition?

Most of them came from this same process, upping things to 11 and creating uber stuff that has never been there before.

40k is not frozen. Go compare a 2nd edition codex to Rogue Trader! OMG CODEX CREEP!!!!
Go look at how different Lysander is in the 3rd edition marine codex versus the 5th edition one! He used to be a sargeant upgrade that gave you Bolter Drill. That's it.

It is a living, evolving game. Things will change. It is also space fantasy / space opera. Things are meant to be OTT and get more so.

ChronoCupcake wrote: Primarchs afaik are portrayed as these invincible demi gods and yet this dude carved a name into a daemon primarchs heart ?!?!,

Daemon Primarchs have been getting killed by Grey Knights since LITERALLY the first occurrence of either in the fluff (1st battle of Armageddon, Titanicus/Space Marine era of game ~1990).

Luckily, getting killed isn't really a big deal for Daemon Primarchs.

Where as you and I drive home from work, a DP just looks for a GKGM to save him the trip.

Pilau Rice wrote:I know that they have to improve the codex and make it better, adding new stuff to it, but just upping everything to 11 and creating uber stuff and uber characters that there has never been a inkling of before makes me cry a little inside. Some of it is getting a little stupid, I think that's my problem. I'm worried that it's going to get even more unbelievable.

Exactly, I just fear what insanity the DA and BT codecies will have in them Its slowly getting more and more silly. This is (IMO) only effecting the marine books though, DE, whilst being a very competitive book, isn't stupid like the astartes books are becoming.

pretre wrote:
Do you like Lysander, Ghaz, Yarrick? Heck, any of the characters in 5th edition?

Are we referring to fluff or table top here? I like the fluff concerning the likes of Yarrick and Ghaz but haven't had the joy of facing them on table top yet. I've been playing for the last 2 years but have only played 14 games and haven't came across any of these characters. Nor have I really delved into them on their respective codex.

pretre wrote:Most of them came from this same process, upping things to 11 and creating uber stuff that has never been there before.

40k is not frozen. Go compare a 2nd edition codex to Rogue Trader! OMG CODEX CREEP!!!!
Go look at how different Lysander is in the 3rd edition marine codex versus the 5th edition one! He used to be a sargeant upgrade that gave you Bolter Drill. That's it.

It is a living, evolving game. Things will change. It is also space fantasy / space opera. Things are meant to be OTT and get more so.

Hey, I would still play 2nd ed if I could and most of my army is Rogue Trader.

Just because stuff gets more and more powerful doesn't make it better. You could keep a lot of the miniatures and state lines as they are but improve the rules and execution of the game. Maybe concentrate on writing rulebooks that are 100% clear without misinterpretation.

And why are they meant to get more over the top? The universe is set and already has some pretty amazing things in it why does anything need to get more ridiculous? I know you need to keep the game you know, interesting, but still. Look at Star Wars and what happened there

The 40k universe hasn't advanced and is stuck

Gorechild wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:I know that they have to improve the codex and make it better, adding new stuff to it, but just upping everything to 11 and creating uber stuff and uber characters that there has never been a inkling of before makes me cry a little inside. Some of it is getting a little stupid, I think that's my problem. I'm worried that it's going to get even more unbelievable.

Exactly, I just fear what insanity the DA and BT codecies will have in them Its slowly getting more and more silly. This is (IMO) only effecting the marine books though, DE, whilst being a very competitive book, isn't stupid like the astartes books are becoming.

Well i'm glad i am not the only one gorechild

Pilau Rice wrote:

I know that they have to improve the codex and make it better, adding new stuff to it, but just upping everything to 11 and creating uber stuff and uber characters that there has never been a inkling of before makes me cry a little inside. Some of it is getting a little stupid, I think that's my problem. I'm worried that it's going to get even more unbelievable.

I'm gonna go start a thread hating on Hercules, cause he kinda did the same thing to Greek Mythology.

Pilau Rice wrote:
The 40k universe hasn't advanced and is stuck

Umm. Don't know what to say here. Are you talking about is the story progressing? That's kind of the point? They artificially are freezing time in the m41? The Imperium is supposed to be stagnant?

The difference is that they are filling in more between M30 and M41 as time goes along.

And DE aren't OTT? Really?

pretre wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
The 40k universe hasn't advanced and is stuck

Umm. Don't know what to say here. Are you talking about is the story progressing? That's kind of the point? They artificially are freezing time in the m41? The Imperium is supposed to be stagnant?

The difference is that they are filling in more between M30 and M41 as time goes along.

And DE aren't OTT? Really?

My comment was tongue in cheek Pretre, hence the wink. But maybe my point was that we should have and know most of what is included in current fluff. Maybe if they did move the clock on to M42 and the Ad Mech pulled their finger out their ass then we might have things like the Avatar Knight thing clunking around.

I never said that Dark Eldar weren't OTT did I

That was mostly in response to one you were responding to. I think Gore said it.

IMHO, DE are just as OTT fluff-wise.

Platuan4th wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

I know that they have to improve the codex and make it better, adding new stuff to it, but just upping everything to 11 and creating uber stuff and uber characters that there has never been a inkling of before makes me cry a little inside. Some of it is getting a little stupid, I think that's my problem. I'm worried that it's going to get even more unbelievable.

I'm gonna go start a thread hating on Hercules, cause he kinda did the same thing to Greek Mythology.

But I like Disney and there would be no Xena without him

pretre wrote:That was mostly in response to one you were responding to. I think Gore said it.

IMHO, DE are just as OTT fluff-wise.

Okie dokie

But haven't the Dark Eldar always been like that though and nothing much has really changed?

Pilau Rice wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:
Or like, I don't know... Logan Grimnar(who's Axe was once a Chaos weapon, can't remember if it was a Daemon Weapon or not)? Or the Inquisition(Radicals do it regularly)?

It's far from unheard of outside the Relictors.

Well I never knew about Logans Axe and the radical Inquisitors aren't exactly the flavour of the month with the rest of the Inquisition.

But fair enough.

So are Calgar's gauntlets iirc

I'm sure GW gets a lot of negative feedback concerning Matt Ward's OTT fluff writing. And IMO, his ridiculous tendency to overrate the factions he writes about is the reason why he was chosen to write the BA codex and the totally new GK one. Because by creating such a powerful army in terms of fluff (and probably in terms of games too), it probably pleases a lot of inexperienced gamers.

Just look at the facts. I think we all agree that the GK looks like the most OTT piece of fluff written so far. Well guess what? The new GK minis are also the most expensive plastic minis produced so far by GW. They are literally 30-40% more expensive than an average SM plastic kit.

Do you really think it is a coincidence? Because I don't. I simply consider it as a very clever marketing strategy.

Umm, way to miss the point.

Yes, GK are more expensive than Tacticals. Tacticals and 'average SM kits' are the cheapest because they are subsidized by volume. Everyone buys them.

Try comparing 5th Edition GK vs 3rd Edition prices. When you had to buy all the Psyc and specials as metal and separately. Yeaaaah. That was a bit more expensive.

Now look at the $33.00 GK box that has bits for four different squad types included stock. Kinda think you're barking up the wrong tree.

pretre wrote:Umm, way to miss the point.

Yes, GK are more expensive than Tacticals. Tacticals and 'average SM kits' are the cheapest because they are subsidized by volume. Everyone buys them.

Try comparing 5th Edition GK vs 3rd Edition prices. When you had to buy all the Psyc and specials as metal and separately. Yeaaaah. That was a bit more expensive.

Now look at the $33.00 GK box that has bits for four different squad types included stock. Kinda think you're barking up the wrong tree.

Signed - It's nice to see there's not a lot of different boxes to get your favourite equipment ( Power Fist for Tac-squad sarge anyone?) for several units.



About Draigo - he has become a Deamon Prince, doesn't know it yet. I like the new trend of diversity in army profiles - in 3rd ed, there was only S4 T4.
Spending his lifetime in the warp changes Draigo - he could be million years old by now, without physically changing.

Interesting premise, the DP thing... There is fluff to support folks living in the Warp/RoC for long periods of time without being changed, however.

13th Company, Lysander, etc.

Also, in 2nd Ed, only base marines were S4/T4, everyone else was all over the place for stats.

The 13th company hasn't survived unscathed though...
Then again Draigo broke his nice sword and had to make a shiny new one...

They aren't unscathed, but they don't have warp mutations and certainly aren't daemon princes.

The only thing they've done that is at all questionable, that I remember, is that they use more and different psychic powers amongst their rune priests.

pretre wrote:They aren't unscathed, but they don't have warp mutations and certainly aren't daemon princes.

The only thing they've done that is at all questionable, that I remember, is that they use more and different psychic powers amongst their rune priests.

I think their was something about the Warp increasing their susceptibility to the Wulfen curse.
The Rune Priests do kinda use Chaos-ey powers to fight Chaos which would be fine with a Radical Inq. but not a Puritan... probably wouldn't sit well with most of the IoM either.

pretre wrote:Umm, way to miss the point.

Yes, GK are more expensive than Tacticals. Tacticals and 'average SM kits' are the cheapest because they are subsidized by volume. Everyone buys them.

Try comparing 5th Edition GK vs 3rd Edition prices. When you had to buy all the Psyc and specials as metal and separately. Yeaaaah. That was a bit more expensive.

Now look at the $33.00 GK box that has bits for four different squad types included stock. Kinda think you're barking up the wrong tree.

Yes, the fact that you can make up four different squads with the GK box is a valid argument. But even in this case, I still think it is used as a strategy to increase selling profits by GW. Because they chose to focus on the quality of their new products and not the quantity of products you get for a fixed amount of money.
It is true that you have the choice between four different types of minis in those new GK boxes, but in the end, you can still only assemble and paint a single squad. Which means you'll probably buy a couple more boxes for your shiny new army.
You'll certainly end up with a more varied and nicer-looking army than with the previous codices, but you paid 50% more than for your vanilla marines army list. And this is way I consider this as a remarkable marketing strategy, because the gamers are going to be super-happy with the stupendous amounts of conversions and modifications they can make, and GW will probably achieve a substantial increase in sales with this new Codex.

Don't mistake me! I'm not barking at all.

purplefood wrote:

pretre wrote:They aren't unscathed, but they don't have warp mutations and certainly aren't daemon princes.

The only thing they've done that is at all questionable, that I remember, is that they use more and different psychic powers amongst their rune priests.

I think their was something about the Warp increasing their susceptibility to the Wulfen curse.
The Rune Priests do kinda use Chaos-ey powers to fight Chaos which would be fine with a Radical Inq. but not a Puritan... probably wouldn't sit well with most of the IoM either.

There was some of that, but also it has just been so long that practically all of them have succumbed to the curse. All in all, the 13th are doing pretty well for themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Laodamia wrote:Yes, the fact that you can make up four different squads with the GK box is a valid argument. But even in this case, I still think it is used as a strategy to increase selling profits by GW. Because they chose to focus on the quality of their new products and not the quantity of products you get for a fixed amount of money.
It is true that you have the choice between four different types of minis in those new GK boxes, but in the end, you can still only assemble and paint a single squad. Which means you'll probably buy a couple more boxes for your shiny new army.
You'll certainly end up with a more varied and nicer-looking army than with the previous codices, but you paid 50% more than for your vanilla marines army list. And this is way I consider this as a remarkable marketing strategy, because the gamers are going to be super-happy with the stupendous amounts of conversions and modifications they can make, and GW will probably achieve a substantial increase in sales with this new Codex.

Don't mistake me! I'm not barking at all.

Wait, so GW's strategy is to make quality products and charge appropriate prices for them? That's CrAzYtAlK!!!!

We're over thinking this. We need to keep our sights set on the simple fact that:

Draigo can make it happen

Whatever it is that we need done or explained:

Draigo can make it happen

Adequate pricing...

Well that's another issue.

Charging more than £20 or $30 for five plastic toy soldiers is not necessarily adequate... But I'm getting OT.

Anyway, my original argument was that GW is certainly aware that Matt Ward has a tendency to write OTT fluff, but they probably use it as a marketing strategy. I mean the marketing staff of GW is certainly not stupid, if they use Ward for their new fluff, it must be because they think he's the guy that is going to sell the most minis.

The new Grey Knights are $2 cheaper than they were before, with WAY more options. Also, why are you even comparing Grey Knights to tactical marines? If anything you should compare them to Death Company. 5 Grey Knights are easily the equal of a tactical squad. The Terminators are also cheaper than their standard counterparts, with WAY more options. Besides. people bought plenty of the metal grey knights and didn't really complain.

Well, I never compared GK to tactical marines anyway. I just made a global comparison between the income GW would get from GK and Vanilla Marines. And I was not assessing their quality in terms of game. In all honesty, we can't really talk about that until we get our hands on the new codex and try the minis "in the field".
And actually, GK and vanilla termies have the same price no?
If I was to summarize my point, I would simply say that GW is basically aiming at higher profits with the same investment.

So yes, plastic minis are definitely cheaper than metal ones. But the plastic minis are getting more expensive for us...

This is kind of off-topic for the Draigo thread. Normally, I would recommend starting a new thread, but this topic has been done to death.

Yes, prices rise over time. Yes, GW is a business. Kind of old news.

It would be funny if it turned out GK played really badly...
All this horror at the BMBC and the rest of the GK and they suck...

Remember the Tyranid hype?

Even the BA are cooling down at this point.

Everything is OMG before it comes out and people get some games in.

pretre wrote:Remember the Tyranid hype?

Even the BA are cooling down at this point.

Everything is OMG before it comes out and people get some games in.

+1

What I am living in fear of are the inevitable:
'hai guyz I want my Space Wolves to be more killy so I am going to be using GK rulez OK?'
Or
'I really like the GK rules but hate the minis, can I run them as count as Jokero instead?'.

Personally, I'm going to be running My Ad Mech army using GK rules.....Draigo will be cool as my HQ choice..............

Lol I like the idea of him setting fire to nurgles garden. I have this image of him, grinning mischievously with a sliver zippo (with the =I= engraved on it of course) setting fire to a half dead tree, while a plague bearer has its back turned.

vodo40k wrote:Lol I like the idea of him setting fire to nurgles garden. I have this image of him, grinning mischievously with a sliver zippo (with the =I= engraved on it of course) setting fire to a half dead tree, while a plague bearer has its back turned.

That's something that bothered me me with Nurgle and Plague marines in particular since their minis were first released. You would have thought that plague carrying corpses would shun heat weapons and here they are toting Plasma , melta and flamers as standard fayre. They don't fear fire do they?

Mr. Burning wrote:

vodo40k wrote:Lol I like the idea of him setting fire to nurgles garden. I have this image of him, grinning mischievously with a sliver zippo (with the =I= engraved on it of course) setting fire to a half dead tree, while a plague bearer has its back turned.

That's something that bothered me me with Nurgle and Plague marines in particular since their minis were first released. You would have thought that plague carrying corpses would shun heat weapons and here they are toting Plasma , melta and flamers as standard fayre. They don't fear fire do they?

I can't remember of any piece of fluff saying that especially fear fire. I guess they are vulnerable to it as much as any other faction.

I just want to know where Draigo gets his storm bolter ammo or keeps his armour in repairs/upkept. Does his GK friends carry extra ammo just in case they bump into him so he can restock?

His faith in the Emprah does it.

temprus wrote:I just want to know where Draigo gets his storm bolter ammo or keeps his armour in repairs/upkept. Does his GK friends carry extra ammo just in case they bump into him so he can restock?

He forges it out of daemon's swords with his mind...
It seems to be the only thing he can use to make weapons.

Or you could just make up some other unreasonable reason for it, such as he carves his bullets out of the bones of daemons. It sounds like something Matt Ward would tell you.

Had the 'pleasure' of actually reading the printed entry today in my LGS.

From defeating M'Kar after a drawn-out single combat with the hilt of his broken nemesis blade, to creating 'purifying flame' the garden of Nurgle, he's taken to an extreme I find difficult to stomach (Although, I am substantially less 'wtf' on some points than I was beforehand).

The thing I find most difficult to comprehend is the defeat of various favoured servants of the Dark Gods. It almost seems M'Kar is becoming the 'new Avatar', the creature an Astartes beats the living hell out of to prove his might (Marneus Calgar and Mephiston have also sent him back to the warp).

Apart from M'Kar, he stomps around the warp tearing daemons limb-from-limb, including several powerful names of note. He slays several favoured daemonettes of Slaanesh, defeats a Bloodthirster at the top of the Blood Falls, and imprisons a Lord of Change (I believe it is M'Kachen) under the rubble of the walls of the Inevitable City (Not sure if that's right, it's what I remember but I don't remember any other references to this place). It's now at the point where he travels around the warp, and has built such a reputation for being uncorruptable that only the most bloodthirsty of Khorne's daemons seek him out.

It does seem rather out of proportion to a single Astartes, skilled Grey Knight or not. These are the kind of battles one would attribute to a Primarch, a being of such power the events that lead to their creation have never been attempted again, and if it is to be believed, the Emperor had to bargain with the powers of Chaos to bring them into creation.

I could just be of an different mindset, where Daemon Princes and Greater Demons are of a power that is truly epic, and the defeat of one takes far more than a single Astartes (Sanguinius defeating Ka'Bandha made me realise the power he possessed, I was rather disappointed to read the Sanguinor fluff that has him defeating a Bloodthirster that broke the legs of his own Primarch). It makes me wonder exactly how far over the top future Space Marine codeci will become.

purplefood wrote:

temprus wrote:I just want to know where Draigo gets his storm bolter ammo or keeps his armour in repairs/upkept. Does his GK friends carry extra ammo just in case they bump into him so he can restock?

He forges it out of daemon's swords with his mind...
It seems to be the only thing he can use to make weapons.

I don't remember actually seeing a Storm Bolter on his profile.

He has a SB and grenades. I imagine he doesn't use it much though.

Kanluwen wrote:

purplefood wrote:

temprus wrote:I just want to know where Draigo gets his storm bolter ammo or keeps his armour in repairs/upkept. Does his GK friends carry extra ammo just in case they bump into him so he can restock?

He forges it out of daemon's swords with his mind...
It seems to be the only thing he can use to make weapons.

I don't remember actually seeing a Storm Bolter on his profile.

Seems it'd be a lot more efficient if he just crafted and fired the bullets with his mind...

Mind bullets. That's Telekinesis, Kyle.

pretre wrote:Mind bullets. That's Telekinesis, Kyle.

And (given the various polls and this thread) he clearly has the power to move you

I have a question. I have been thinking about the fact that he carved his name, or the name of a fellow fallen GK on the Heart of Mortarion. I could be wrong, I didn't have the chance to read this codex yet.

This single fact puts into question my entire understanding of the power-relationships between primarchs and Astartes. I thought that, in single combat, NO primarch could be bested by ANY kind of Astartes, especially a primarch that received gifts from the Chaos Gods.

Mortarion was probably not the badass one among the primarchs, but still, how was Draigo able to best him in single combat, tear his chest open and write "you suck" (or whatever he wrote) on his heart?

To me, it sounds like:
a) The primarchs' power is based on fear and reputation more than actual combat skills
b) With the case of Draigo, Humanity was able to recreate a being equal to the Emperor's primarchs

These two points leave me scratching my head. What are your thoughts on this?

It wasn't single combat. It was a force of Grey Knights led by Draigo versus Mortarion. Draigo was not (and still is not) primarch powerful.

It is vague as to details though.

Laodamia wrote:I have a question. I have been thinking about the fact that he carved his name, or the name of a fellow fallen GK on the Heart of Mortarion. I could be wrong, I didn't have the chance to read this codex yet.

This single fact puts into question my entire understanding of the power-relationships between primarchs and Astartes. I thought that, in single combat, NO primarch could be bested by ANY kind of Astartes, especially a primarch that received gifts from the Chaos Gods.

Mortarion was probably not the badass one among the primarchs, but still, how was Draigo able to best him in single combat, tear his chest open and write "you suck" (or whatever he wrote) on his heart?

To me, it sounds like:
a) The primarchs' power is based on fear and reputation more than actual combat skills
b) With the case of Draigo, Humanity was able to recreate a being equal to the Emperor's primarchs

These two points leave me scratching my head. What are your thoughts on this?

IIRC it wasnt just him it was him and the previous supreme grandmaster Jainus, the two strongest grey knights in existence. Keep in mind the power disparity between astrates and grey knights, GK's were in theory made from the emperors own geneseed to be incorruptible warriors against chaos, In a sense there a halfway point between astrates and the primarchs of old. IIRC in one of the books by black library a 3rd or 4th company captain of a chapter of astrates gets bested in combat by a grey knight justicar who was just toying with him.

Makes sense that Mortation now being a daemon prince and thereby having a weakness to the anti daemon weaponry they field could in theory be bested (not utterly destroyed mind you) by the two greatest grey knights in existence no ?. Allthough I would imagine a "mortal" primarch who wasnt part daemon would have fared much better against the two.

A normal primarch?

No, not a hope

A DAEMON primarch, when you have been created, trained and armed *specifically* to beat Daemons, and therefore havea whole load of advantages that you woudlnt otherwise have? Yes, IF there are two of you, the two strongest of the most elite marine force and *one of you dies in the process*, THEN you have a chance of beating them.

It's not a difficult concept to grasp: a daemon primarch has a whole host of advantages that a normal primarch doesnt. On the other hand its very nature means it is now susceptible to effects that a normal primarch wouldnt be. Rock, paper, scissors in other words.

ChronoCupcake wrote:
IIRC it wasnt just him it was him and the previous supreme grandmaster Jainus, the two strongest grey knights in existence.

Janus was not there. Janus was GM of the GK during the Horus Heresy. Draigo became SGM 11k years later. He and a force of GK's (it is unclear how many) pulled off the stunt against Mortarion.

Keep in mind the power disparity between astrates and grey knights, GK's were in theory made from the emperors own geneseed to be incorruptible warriors against chaos, In a sense there a halfway point between astrates and the primarchs of old. IIRC in one of the books by black library a 3rd or 4th company captain of a chapter of astrates gets bested in combat by a grey knight justicar who was just toying with him.

You are muddling up Custodes and Grey Knights. Grey Knights great strength is that they are uncorruptible and psykers, not that they are supremely better than normal astartes. They also get better gear. Also, there is no confirmation, that I am aware of, that GKs come from the Emperor's Geneseed (or that the Emperor even had geneseed, in the way that we think of it). The black library passage you are thinking of was Custodes and Word Bearers, unless I'm thinking of a different one.

Makes sense that Mortation now being a daemon prince and thereby having a weakness to the anti daemon weaponry they field could in theory be bested (not utterly destroyed mind you) by the two greatest grey knights in existence no ?. Allthough I would imagine a "mortal" primarch who wasnt part daemon would have fared much better against the two.

I'm guessing that the better part of a GK strike force could indeed successfully deal with a Daemon Primarch, as they did it before with Angron. Two GKs? Probably not.


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nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, IF there are two of you, the two strongest of the most elite marine force and *one of you dies in the process*, THEN you have a chance of beating them.

Pretty sure this is not how it went down. From the book:
"He became Supreme Grand Master in the early days of 901.M41, following the slaughter of the previous Chapter Lord at the hands of the Daemon Primarch Mortarion, and his first act was to carve..."

I'm pretty sure you don't get field promoted during a fight with a Daemon to Sup GM. I believe you'll find there was time between those two events and Draigo led a force against Mortarion.

pretre wrote:It wasn't single combat. It was a force of Grey Knights led by Draigo versus Mortarion. Draigo was not (and still is not) primarch powerful.

It is vague as to details though.

Could be a bit like this

The First War for Armageddon
by Imperial scriveners Graham McNeill & Andy Hoare
Aurellian focussed all his hatred of the Fallen One until it was an incandescent power that burned within him and threatened to consume his flesh unless released. His battle-brothers felt the power building within him and, understanding the finality of such powerful psychic energy, began doing likewise. Angron roared, clearly sensing the buildup of their power, but either did not care or, in his arrogance, believed himself too powerful to be harmed by it. He charged towards Aurellian, bellowing in fury. Aurellian felt the power of his fellow warriors pulse through him and released it in a fiery corona of psychic energy. He screamed as the colossal forces wracked his shattered body, feeling the life energies of three of his battle brothers fade as the power consumed them. The Bloodthirsters screeched in rage as the power of the Grey Knights’ faith hit them like a tidal wave, two bursting apart in an explosion of black ichor.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1390091a_WD278_C_Imperialis(Armageddon).pdf

ChronoCupcake wrote:Basically Im curious as to whats going on at GW hq as this seems to be such a radical departure from everything theyve done so far, to summarize some of the leaked fluff Lord Kaldor Draigo is famous for killing a daemon prince in his first combat action, banishing daemon primarch Mortarion back to the warp, somehow carving the name of the previous supreme grand master Janus into the heart of said daemon primarch, single handedly holding off a daemon horde for two days in real space, killing a daemon prince with a broken sword, Killing one of Khorne's strongest bloodthirsters with little to no weaponry, taking said bloodthirsters axe and reforging it into a sword for his own personal use USING HIS MIND, slaying 6 of Slaanesh's chosen daemonettes, setting fire to Nurgle's garden and slaying countless daemons whilst being trapped in warpspace.

So, what in this is accurate? I've heard whispers but I want to hear from people who have read the codex.

ChronoCupcake wrote:Basically Im curious as to whats going on at GW hq as this seems to be such a radical departure from everything theyve done so far, to summarize some of the leaked fluff Lord Kaldor Draigo is famous for killing a daemon prince in his first combat action,

True, but not single combat he struck the killing blow.

banishing daemon primarch Mortarion back to the warp,

Unclear, not in the fluff. In fact, there is a theory that the GK's just have Mortarion's heart in a box somewhere and Draigo wandered down to cold storage and cut the name in. (Joking, mostly. The text is really unclear as to what happened to cause the carving to come up.)

somehow carving the name of the previous supreme grand master Janus into the heart of said daemon primarch,

Kinda true. He did carve the previous master's name, but it wasn't Janus.

single handedly holding off a daemon horde for two days in real space,

True, it was in a thin pass that he held. Marneus Calgar did the same thing against orks, I beleive.

killing a daemon prince with a broken sword,

True, although he almost died and was banished to the Realms of Chaos in the process.

Killing one of Khorne's strongest bloodthirsters with little to no weaponry, taking said bloodthirsters axe and reforging it into a sword for his own personal use USING HIS MIND,

Partially true. No where does it say that it was one of Khorne's strongest, but he did kill him with his broken sword and did melt the axe with purifying psychic flame and use it to reforge his sword.

slaying 6 of Slaanesh's chosen daemonettes, setting fire to Nurgle's garden and slaying countless daemons whilst being trapped in warpspace.

True, although everything that he does in warpspace is meaningless as the chaos gods just reverse the changes.

Maybe he was in a Dread Knight at the time ...

Oh yeah, I went there

I am pretty sure the fluff isnt true and thats just what the GK masters tell the battle brothers before they go forth to battle innumerable daemon hordes so they don't think they can die before the conflict begins...

And by the way, how 'bout that Fallout 3 Recon Armor Helmet? Between that and the Dreadknight they're just doing a Brotherhood of Steel port.

This is beating a dead horse but I'll say it anyway.

If it took 100 Grey Knights to banish Angron, 2 Grey Knight grand masters shouldn't be able to pull it off. I don't care how bad ass they are, there is only 2 of them.

Also, Calgar's paired powerfists used to be a chaos weapon.

Owain wrote:And by the way, how 'bout that Fallout 3 Recon Armor Helmet? Between that and the Dreadknight they're just doing a Brotherhood of Steel port.

I never played this game but I heard about it.

You mean a lot of fluff from the new GK is similar to the fallout background?

Noisy_Marine wrote:This is beating a dead horse but I'll say it anyway.

If it took 100 Grey Knights to banish Angron, 2 Grey Knight grand masters shouldn't be able to pull it off. I don't care how bad ass they are, there is only 2 of them.

Also, Calgar's paired powerfists used to be a chaos weapon.

Where are you getting this? 2 GKGMs didn't banish Mortarion. That's not in the book.

Someone up above mis-posted something about that, but it was disproved.

Noisy_Marine wrote:
If it took 100 Grey Knights to banish Angron, 2 Grey Knight grand masters shouldn't be able to pull it off.

You're totally right. Remember all those other stories we read about Calgar single handedly killing a planet, or Grimnar repelling a black crusade by himself? Wait, they're in charge of chapters; they don't EVER fight alone. Neither to Grey Knight masters.


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VenerableBrotherPelinore wrote:
From defeating M'Kar after a drawn-out single combat with the hilt of his broken nemesis blade, to creating 'purifying flame' the garden of Nurgle, he's taken to an extreme I find difficult to stomach

40k goes to 11.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:
If it took 100 Grey Knights to banish Angron, 2 Grey Knight grand masters shouldn't be able to pull it off.

You're totally right. Remember all those other stories we read about Calgar single handedly killing a planet, or Grimnar repelling a black crusade by himself? Wait, they're in charge of chapters; they don't EVER fight alone. Neither to Grey Knight masters.

Wold Lords often go on solo missions.
There is nothing in the fluff for Logan that really makes him ridiculous.
Calgar... well blame Matt Ward for that entire codex.

I believe you'll find that DarknessEternal was being sarcastic.

pretre wrote:I believe you'll find that DarknessEternal was being sarcastic.

It's more along the lines of exaggeration.
But most of the stories make it clear quite how grimdark the situation is and although they have millions of men somehow it won't be enough.

DarknessEternal wrote:40k goes to 11.

I think it's a bit past that stage already. I mean, titanic walkers with whole companies of elite troops in their legs is not going to 11? and that's like, 30 years ago or something...
nothing wrong with some good, old fashioned wow-factor. that's not to say this is good; this is just bad fluffwriting. the over-the-top feel is native, however.

I like his model and his fluff. But I hate matt ward. I suggest. DLS Makes a rewrite of it.

Laodamia wrote:

Owain wrote:And by the way, how 'bout that Fallout 3 Recon Armor Helmet? Between that and the Dreadknight they're just doing a Brotherhood of Steel port.

I never played this game but I heard about it.

You mean a lot of fluff from the new GK is similar to the fallout background?

The underlying fluff is very different, but Draigo's equipment bears strong resemblance to that of the Brotherhood of Steel, a tech-cult that formed after a worldwide nuclear war wiped most human civilization from the face of the planet.

Wait, so Draigo is derivative of an organization that is derivative of plate mail with pauldrons and arming caps?

Reeeacccching.

You have seen pictures of knights wearing plate and arming caps before, right?

pretre wrote:Wait, so Draigo is derivative of an organization that is derivative of plate mail with pauldrons and arming caps?

Reeeacccching.

You have seen pictures of knights wearing plate and arming caps before, right?

I am sure owain's post is not as stupid as you might think. I read some fallout fluff on the Internet, especially on this "brotherhood of steel", and yes, there is some kind of similarity between their look and the GK's appearance. I mean, similarities more important than that they can basically be compared to sci-fi knights with big and shiny armour.

I'm really not seeing a similarity between the Brotherhood of Steel, outside of the arming cap(which--quite frankly--is a big "so what?". Arming caps are a knightly icon, and what's more--the one on the Grey Knights only has wires on it because it hooks into the Aegis suit's psychic hood).

Herp a Durp....

vodo40k wrote:Lol I like the idea of him setting fire to nurgles garden. I have this image of him, grinning mischievously with a sliver zippo (with the =I= engraved on it of course) setting fire to a half dead tree, while a plague bearer has its back turned.

While grandfather Nurgle runs outside waving his mixing spoon screaming for the stupid kids to get out of his garden

case013 wrote:

vodo40k wrote:Lol I like the idea of him setting fire to nurgles garden. I have this image of him, grinning mischievously with a sliver zippo (with the =I= engraved on it of course) setting fire to a half dead tree, while a plague bearer has its back turned.

While grandfather Nurgle runs outside waving his mixing spoon screaming for the stupid kids to get out of his garden

Now I want him more than ever XD

Owain wrote:The underlying fluff is very different, but Draigo's equipment bears strong resemblance to that of the Brotherhood of Steel, a tech-cult that formed after a worldwide nuclear war wiped most human civilization from the face of the planet.

I don't wanna spoil your genius factory moment, but Grey Knights have always had that sort of half leather, half tech bits skull cover on under their helmets.

Laodamia wrote:

pretre wrote:Wait, so Draigo is derivative of an organization that is derivative of plate mail with pauldrons and arming caps?

Reeeacccching.

You have seen pictures of knights wearing plate and arming caps before, right?

I am sure owain's post is not as stupid as you might think. I read some fallout fluff on the Internet, especially on this "brotherhood of steel", and yes, there is some kind of similarity between their look and the GK's appearance. I mean, similarities more important than that they can basically be compared to sci-fi knights with big and shiny armour.

You mean that 2 groups that pull their inspiration from the same source out of history look slightly similar?

ph34r wrote:

Owain wrote:The underlying fluff is very different, but Draigo's equipment bears strong resemblance to that of the Brotherhood of Steel, a tech-cult that formed after a worldwide nuclear war wiped most human civilization from the face of the planet.

I don't wanna spoil your genius factory moment, but Grey Knights have always had that sort of half leather, half tech bits skull cover on under their helmets.

The man isn't wrong.



There was another piece from the same 3rd ed Deamonhunter Codex this art came from that also had a Grey Knight with the same kind of hat hood thing. It is something they have had for a long time now. Since before Fallout 3 existed and the consoles that its played on were even released.

hahaha


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pretre wrote:

ChronoCupcake wrote:
IIRC it wasnt just him it was him and the previous supreme grandmaster Jainus, the two strongest grey knights in existence.

Janus was not there. Janus was GM of the GK during the Horus Heresy. Draigo became SGM 11k years later. He and a force of GK's (it is unclear how many) pulled off the stunt against Mortarion.

Keep in mind the power disparity between astrates and grey knights, GK's were in theory made from the emperors own geneseed to be incorruptible warriors against chaos, In a sense there a halfway point between astrates and the primarchs of old. IIRC in one of the books by black library a 3rd or 4th company captain of a chapter of astrates gets bested in combat by a grey knight justicar who was just toying with him.

You are muddling up Custodes and Grey Knights. Grey Knights great strength is that they are uncorruptible and psykers, not that they are supremely better than normal astartes. They also get better gear. Also, there is no confirmation, that I am aware of, that GKs come from the Emperor's Geneseed (or that the Emperor even had geneseed, in the way that we think of it). The black library passage you are thinking of was Custodes and Word Bearers, unless I'm thinking of a different one.

Makes sense that Mortation now being a daemon prince and thereby having a weakness to the anti daemon weaponry they field could in theory be bested (not utterly destroyed mind you) by the two greatest grey knights in existence no ?. Allthough I would imagine a "mortal" primarch who wasnt part daemon would have fared much better against the two.

I'm guessing that the better part of a GK strike force could indeed successfully deal with a Daemon Primarch, as they did it before with Angron. Two GKs? Probably not.


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nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, IF there are two of you, the two strongest of the most elite marine force and *one of you dies in the process*, THEN you have a chance of beating them.

Pretty sure this is not how it went down. From the book:
"He became Supreme Grand Master in the early days of 901.M41, following the slaughter of the previous Chapter Lord at the hands of the Daemon Primarch Mortarion, and his first act was to carve..."

I'm pretty sure you don't get field promoted during a fight with a Daemon to Sup GM. I believe you'll find there was time between those two events and Draigo led a force against Mortarion.

IIRC it was one of the books with uriel ventris where he gets bitch slapped by a Justicar so hard it knocks him out and in the following scuffle outclassed in everyway shape and form, its heavily implied that grey knights are Superior to regular cookie cutter astrates there training is much harder as is there gear, not to mention the science behind making a grey knight is so much more advanced you inevitably get a much more refined end product. (Apologies If my reply is in cohesive I have a major hangover)

Because as he stated the only way Uriel and Pasanius could have beaten him was if they were indeed corrupted

The only way my brain can accept his fluff is by its just all one very exaggerated tale. Kinda like a old west dime novel.

The absolute best part about Draigo is that no matter how outlandish his fluff, he is outshined on the tabletop by three Obliter-apes in a Chimera who cost half the points.

The fluff should be retconned to say that 3 Jokaero Weaponsmiths burst from a rampaging Chimera to carve an image of a banana on the primarchs rotting heart.

terribletrygon wrote:Since before Fallout 3 existed and the consoles that its played on were even released.

While I agree with everything I said, Fallout 3 is in fact available for PC. I'm pretty sure there were PCs around during 3rd ed.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

terribletrygon wrote:Since before Fallout 3 existed and the consoles that its played on were even released.

While I agree with everything I said, Fallout 3 is in fact available for PC. I'm pretty sure there were PCs around during 3rd ed.

as were fallout series games.

I know, but the Iron Brotherhood only showed up through wiki'in on Fallout 3, and not the other games, so I went with that. I could be wrong, since I am not a gamer.

I also did not mention PC, as trying to fit it in would ruin a perfectly nice post pointing out that 2003 was a long time ago. Hence just mentioning the consoles.

Grey Knights with leather caps have been around since 90's

For serious brah? Then they probably do trump the Fallout series on leather caps even if I was wrong. As long as the Knights were having them before 1997. Which I reckon they probably did.

terribletrygon wrote:I know, but the Iron Brotherhood only showed up through wiki'in on Fallout 3, and not the other games, so I went with that. I could be wrong, since I am not a gamer.

I also did not mention PC, as trying to fit it in would ruin a perfectly nice post pointing out that 2003 was a long time ago. Hence just mentioning the consoles.

The Brotherhood of Steel have been present in all the Fallout games, the first of which was released in 1997, as have they had the cowl and power armour look since then too: http://images.wikia.com/fallout/images/9/9c/FO01_NPC_Cabbot_N.png

But anyhow, it probably wasn't GW's intentions back in the Rogue Trader days or with the Deamonhunters Codex to make their minis as rip offs of over series, but with the writers that they have now its not pushing the bar too far to see that they're really lacking imagination and little better than fanboys to the game that their predessor's created. =/

"Back in the Rogue Trader days" was before Fallout


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And as another note:
It's not any kind of leap of logic to assume that they didn't look at Fallout.

Look up anything regarding knights. You'll find quite a bit about the arming caps they'd wear under their chainmail coifs, which they in turn wore underneath the plate full helms.

Yup, as was implied....

I wasn't saying anything about the guys who made the Deamonhunter's codex stealing anyone else's ideas, the sci fi knight look is fiarly generic nowadays, just making the point that juding by the latest fluff ideas and minatures coming out of GW the designers have become really unimaginative. =/

The fluff ideas? Certainly, quite a bit of it is over the top--but then again, a lot of it has also existed since 2nd/3rd edition.

I'm not really sure which "miniatures coming out of GW" are unimaginative.

ChronoCupcake wrote:Hey guys with the reveal of the new of the new grey knights kit and there new HQ choice Lord Kaldor Draigo I decided to do a little digging around for leaked fluff, and whilst I appreciate this might be dated news for some I still think itd be interesting for the people who had there curiosity sparked with the reveal.

C-3

Don't forget the fact he destroyed a Tzeentchian fortress known as the Inevitable City, somehow 'toppling the walls' when a Daemon offered him a route back home.

He had an army of melta bombs and something called luck. Seems like He also had some multilazors and a transforming Razorback and he can do back flips.

On a serious note he probaly just sneaked around found a massive hole in the middle of it and found out that was its power source and dropped a holy grenade down it someway.

Yeah I got nothing

He thought of it as destroyed, and the Emporer's holy might flowed through him in a massive manifastation which completely leveled the city, purifying that land permanantly.

Rather, for about 15 minutes until Tzeentch rebuilt it.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I can accept Draigo beating Mortarion. Two Grey Knight Grand Masters, the best of the best who exist for no reason but to hunt down and kill Daemons, with only one of them surviving the encounter, isn't too much of an outrage.


Razing one of Tzeentch's cities, killing six favoured daemonettes of Slaanesh and burning down the FRIGGIN' GARDEN OF NURGLE, however, just doesn't happen. If he's trapped in the Warp so often, why doesn't the Chaos Gods just step on him? It makes no sense! DOES NOT COMPUTE! ERROR! ERROR!

remember. in the fluff it says that no matter he does, they all come back. The garden regrows, the daemons find new bodies, and tzeentchs cities rebuild themselves. It may be easier then we thought to slay these things, since they techincally invincble and immortal. Being in the warp could have also transformed Draigo into some half daemon half grey knight hybrid. Maybe the gods can't kill him because they cannot physically interact with him themselves. Or maybe he is going to be bait for the emperor himself, who knows, maybe the demons are dying ON PURPOSE.

Draigo seems to be the new
"totally not a daemon prince"

GW: "Hey I know we have made a lot of armies uncompetitive but let's update a fluff fringe army to make it broken and competitive in all situations."
GW #2: " Well we have the grey knights - dedicated to taking on demons."

GW #1: " Cool let's make them and screw the tau and necrons for another 3 to 6 months. Let's laugh at the growingly uncompetitive Dark Angels, Eldar and Orc players!!"

GW #2: " Speaking of which, I think it's about time we start thinking of 6th ed so we can do the blind redo of SM and IG and frustrate those non-competitive codex players even more!!"

Sorry for the rant but this one really frosts me.

Thanks for bringing more codex creep whining into a thread in the background forum. :(

As for the DP claims, I doubt it. I think it is far more likely that he is still pure but is being toyed with by the Chaos Gods.

pretre wrote:Thanks for bringing more codex creep whining into a thread in the background forum. :(

As for the DP claims, I doubt it. I think it is far more likely that he is still pure but is being toyed with by the Chaos Gods.

You mean the Chaos Gods actually like what he's doing.

Why not, after all.

It might be slaanesh that gave him the oil to burn nurgle's garden. It could also be Khorne that showed how how to blow up tzeentch's city.

Good call, Lao.

I had thought of them just messing with Draigo, but even better would be they could point him in the direction of the other god's domains through misdirection.

I read the Draigo entry and the only thing that didn't work for me was the Mortarion part.

So my justification to make it work is that Mortarion pulled a Davey Jones.
He keeps his organs elsewhere.
Possible all of them are kept in Canopic jars like the Egyptian mummies.
That identifies with a Lord of Death idea in my head.

So all Draigo had to do was find the place it was kept and get his carve on.
He probably didn't even have to confront Mortarion.

The rest of the story is kinda cool.
He thinks he accomplishes all these things in the Warp, but they are undone as soon as he moves on.
That and the expelling from the warp only to be pulled back in after victory.
The way the Warp works, the amount of time he thinks has passed could be unimaginable.

If you think about it for a minute, he is the embodiment of 40k.
Endless war, with little changing, even the year is static.

"Derpgo has no justifiable reason to be so awesome. He is just stupid, but since he is in print and here to stay...

I hope ward catches the Chaos bug and updates a chaos character called Doom Rider. Who when he ran over and mortally wounded a Grey knight was told "I curse you to rot upon terra for eternity."

So Doom Rider jumps back into in the warp and is spat out on terra, Where he proceeded to smash his way into the throne room carves 'Fulgrim' on the emperor's chest, then he destroys a number of hives and kills million of terra's defenders. So much so that even the custodes are now afraid of him.

He also finds and kills Leman Russ in a drinking contest cause you know Slaanesh trumps wolf wolf drinking abilities. Occasionally he finds a way off terra but it is only temporary because Grey Knight (Sue) cursed him. No matter what he does he will eventually end up back there to do donuts, kill people, ejaculate plasma and shout nananana COCAINE!

So am I hired?"

+1 to this, you get my vote!
I back the idea of draego being an unwitting pawn of the dark gods, but beating mortarion? That made me angry...

Well if Ward keeps this up in his Necron Codex we'll see a Necron Lord ripping off Draigo's arm and using it to beat down an entire SM chapter. Then he uses the power armour of the dead marines to fuse a half-ceramite half-necrodermis space motorcycle which he flies straight into Terra's sun causing it to explode. Then he starts a rock duo with Dante.

skrulnik wrote:I read the Draigo entry and the only thing that didn't work for me was the Mortarion part.

So my justification to make it work is that Mortarion pulled a Davey Jones.
He keeps his organs elsewhere.
Possible all of them are kept in Canopic jars like the Egyptian mummies.
That identifies with a Lord of Death idea in my head.

So all Draigo had to do was find the place it was kept and get his carve on.
He probably didn't even have to confront Mortarion.

The rest of the story is kinda cool.
He thinks he accomplishes all these things in the Warp, but they are undone as soon as he moves on.
That and the expelling from the warp only to be pulled back in after victory.
The way the Warp works, the amount of time he thinks has passed could be unimaginable.

If you think about it for a minute, he is the embodiment of 40k.
Endless war, with little changing, even the year is static.

EXACTLY! couldn't have said it better myself

ChronoCupcake wrote:

wib wrote:

ChronoCupcake wrote:who or what is this Matt Ward you speak off ?

Depending on who you mean he is one of 2 things:

a). A very poor writer for GW who has a liking for outragously over-the-top fluff, recently responsible for the Blood Angels codex.

b). A very bitter 40k player who's fed up of sharing the same name as the the aforementioned writer, mostly due to all the animosity that's expressed towards the name, i.e. me.

Zing

But in all honesty what was so wrong with the Blood angels codex besides Dante suddenly having developed the emotional angst issues of a teen Jrpg protagonist and the Sanguinor being one of the lamest ideas for a hero ever, well actually that does sound kinda cheesy but not as broken as Kaldor Draigo and the dreadknight and this is just the first wave !, at this rate Draigo will turn into some kind of internet meme or oh dear lord imagine Draigo inside a dreadknight ... bricks will be shat ...

I dont mind them making space marine characters EPICALLY powerful.
It just makes it more of a fail when one of my meagre guardsmen kill him with a lucky lasgun shot.
Thought of the Day: If at first you don't succeed, then you fail! Unless you are Chuck Norris.

While I'm not a fan of Ward..

GKs needed Draigo the way he currently is.

1000 Grey Knights vs the Galaxy. Even in tabletop the poor guys are outnumbered. They need something that gives them in fluff and tabletop a hero to stand against overwhelming odds.

Is he too extreme? Well, for an order that is pretty much as above a Space Marine as a Space Marine is above a regular human there better be a good reason why. Draigo is the reason why.

Thread Lock.

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