We all know that Paladins get Apothecaries. I fully intend on starting a GK army (as I already have a GK support force for my SMs back when the we had the Allies rules) so I was wondering if Apothecaries were actually worth it. Given that they're T4 with 2 wounds, they'll probably be seeing alot of S8 weapons come their way, so the FnP might not be worth it. 2 wounds with a 2+ armor save is already insanely survivable, so I was wondering if this would just be wasting points, given that (according to the leaked dex) the Apoth isn't cheap.

EDIT: Damnit I posted in the wrong forum AGAIN! >_<

They're less vulnerable than marine apothecaries because they're a unit upgrade, not an IC. Nothing but the nastiest psychic powers and the vindicare assassin will be able to pick him out of the crowd. I'd say running paladins without the apothecary will be the dumb move, because really, why wouldn't you give them such a massive boost in power?

Because an apothecary, if the leaked dex is right, is 75 points, more than enough for a whole other Paladin (the 75 is on top of the cost of a normal Paladin). That and FnP is ignored by AP2 weapons, S8 weapons (which would ID the Paladins too) and Power weapons in melee. Given the stats of the Paladin, these will likely be the only things coming their way.

the Apothecary and the varity of options the Paladins have allows for Diversification.


if i am not mistaken, you can have up to 9 unique terminators including the Apothecary.


of course, you probably won't be ever running that many as they won't fit in any transports.

using my copy of the codex i have this squad for riding in Stormravens.


Palidin with Force Sword and Psycannon
Palidin with Force halbard
Palidin with Force halbard and Psycannon
Palidin with Nemisis Deamonhammer
Paladin with a Pair of Nemisis Falchions
Apothacary with Force Halbard

the entire squad has Psybolts

final cost=470 pts


12 wounds with FnP.

you can almost get 12 Vanilla Assault Terminators for the same price.


the Apothecary is a no brainer upgrade in my opinion.

It makes them insanely survivable in the face of small arms fire (each terminator, statistically, has to be hit 12 times to suffer a wound, and 24 times to die, meaning to wipe a 5 man squad it's going to take at least 120 wounds). However they will die to roughly 10 lascannon wounds (4+ invul means that 10 actual wounds are needed to inflict 5 instant deaths) Normal GK terminators of the same unit size would die to the same amount of Lascannon fire, but much less normal arms fire are needed (roughly 30 normal wounds would do them in). This means that in an equivallent points, Paladins would be twice as survivable in terms of small arms fire compared to 10 normal Terminators, while 10 normal terminators have twice the amount of survivability compared to Paladins. Normal Terminators appeal a little bit more though, because they would also bring in MUCH more attacks to the field. It also depends on Anti-tank weapon saturation: Normal Terminators have an overall increased survivability against Power weapons, S8+ weapons and AP2 weapons solely because they bring more wounds, Paladins would not.

I'm unimpressed with Paladins. Consider the following:

5 Paladins, 1 of which is an Apothecary. 350 pts. This is without upgrades.

10 wounds, FNP. Standing in cover, 10 lascannon wounds will kill the entire squad. Anything S7 or lower, or AP3 or worse, however, will have to do do 120 wounds.

For the same cost, I could simply have 9 regular Terminators. Standing in cover, they'll require 18 lascannon wounds to kill, or 54 "regular" wounds.

Assuming all wargear costs are identical, Terminators will have more firepower but Paladins will have, effectively, 5 ablative wounds before they remove models. Terms will actually beat the Paladins in close combat point-for-point.

Pallies are clearly the superior choice when sweeping "regular" infantry, but the squad is either outperformed, in general, by a larger number of regular Terminators or prohibitively expensive.

I would really only take the Paladins when I wanted a special character delivery squad that can extend the FNP bubble to Draigo (or the equiv) and a Librarian, where the force multiplication effects of their grenades, banner, Chapter Master bonus, FNP and psy powers can cover more models. In that line, you want to take as many Pallies as can fit, so 6 if traveling via Crusader, or 10 if forming a footslogging unit.

I think with Pallies it's go big or go Terminator. For general purpose utility, I'd rather simply have more Terms on the table for greater table coverage and target selection.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:It also depends on Anti-tank weapon saturation: Normal Terminators have an overall increased survivability against Power weapons, S8+ weapons and AP2 weapons solely because they bring more wounds, Paladins would not.

I think you missed something there...

Yeah, palidins have 2 wounds each and are diversifiable.

sourclams wrote:I'm unimpressed with Paladins. Consider the following:

5 Paladins, 1 of which is an Apothecary. 350 pts. This is without upgrades.

10 wounds, FNP. Standing in cover, 10 lascannon wounds will kill the entire squad. Anything S7 or lower, or AP3 or worse, however, will have to do do 120 wounds.

For the same cost, I could simply have 9 regular Terminators. Standing in cover, they'll require 18 lascannon wounds to kill, or 54 "regular" wounds.

I just need to address how ridiculous this example is. You're talking about wounds here, not even shots. Thats 20+ BS 3 lascannon shots at a single unit in cover!

1) What the hell was the idiot GK player in this scenario doing putting paladins in line of sight of 20+ heavy weapons?

and

2) What kind of army can afford to fire 20 or more heavy weapons at a single unit of infantry?

For the vast majority of armies, those 20+ heavy weapons represent their entire firepower, IG included. Name a codex and I can guarantee that competitive lists for it will be around the 15-30 heavy weapon mark. And thats the entire army we're talking about remember.

In reality, the paladins are going to be deploying out of a stormraven or landraider. I'd pick the stormraven because after coming in fast from reserve, they'll probably be able to hit the enemy lines in cc by turn 3-4. Compare the survivability of paladins versus terminators in that scenario and I think you'll see clearly that paladins win. Hence why they are an expensive elite choice for the army and not just troops.

Bruteboss wrote:I just need to address how ridiculous this example is. You're talking about wounds here, not even shots. Thats 20+ BS 3 lascannon shots at a single unit in cover!

1) What the hell was the idiot GK player in this scenario doing putting paladins in line of sight of 20+ heavy weapons?

and

2) What kind of army can afford to fire 20 or more heavy weapons at a single unit of infantry?

For the vast majority of armies, those 20+ heavy weapons represent their entire firepower, IG included. Name a codex and I can guarantee that competitive lists for it will be around the 15-30 heavy weapon mark. And thats the entire army we're talking about remember.

In reality, the paladins are going to be deploying out of a stormraven or landraider. I'd pick the stormraven because after coming in fast from reserve, they'll probably be able to hit the enemy lines in cc by turn 3-4. Compare the survivability of paladins versus terminators in that scenario and I think you'll see clearly that paladins win. Hence why they are an expensive elite choice for the army and not just troops.

The example is not ridiculous. He didn't say 'put 10 lascannon wounds on them in one turn'. He merely stated that it takes 10 lascannon wounds to kill a paladin squad in cover. You don't think that over 2-3 turns of shooting some lascannons at them you can't genereate 10 wounds?

Vs most of the ranged weapons fire that will be directed at paladins, they are not going to be anymore survivable than regular terminators.

The apothecary costs 55+75=130 points

That is absurd. The apothecary doesn't even help you against the weapons your enemy is going to shoot at your paladins: things that instant death them.

Bruteboss wrote:1) What the hell was the idiot GK player in this scenario doing putting paladins in line of sight of 20+ heavy weapons?

and

2) What kind of army can afford to fire 20 or more heavy weapons at a single unit of infantry?

3 IG Vendettas fire T1. 6 wounds. 2 IG Vendettas fire T2. 4 wounds.

5 Paladins with Apothecary = 350 pts. 3 IG Vendettas = 390 pts.

Doesn't sound so UNPOSSIBLEH when you break it down, does it?

For the vast majority of armies, those 20+ heavy weapons represent their entire firepower, IG included.

Really? 3 Vendettas is UNPOSSIBLEH?

In reality, the paladins are going to be deploying out of a stormraven or landraider. I'd pick the stormraven because after coming in fast from reserve, they'll probably be able to hit the enemy lines in cc by turn 3-4. Compare the survivability of paladins versus terminators in that scenario and I think you'll see clearly that paladins win. Hence why they are an expensive elite choice for the army and not just troops.

Okay, so 5 Paladins + Apoth in LR are 600 points.

5 Paladins @ 350 charge 9 bog standard TH/SS Terms @ 360. 15 attacks, 10 hits, ~7 wounds due to Hammerhand, 2 dead TH/SS Terms. 7 TH/SS Terms swing, dealing 5 wounds, killing 4 Paladins, or all 5 with Null Zone or Vulkan.

TH/SS Terms lost 80 pts worth of men, Paladins lost 350. Lack of T5 or EW is a huge liability on expensive multiwound units.

Do you have any other completely irrational statements that you'd like to make today?

paladins with a medic are virtually immune to small arms fire, pretty much completely immune, you cant bring them down with weight of fire with any sort of reliability like normal terminators.

however they are somewhat more vulnerable to anti-terminator weaponry, you need to build the rest of your army with this in mind to destroy/disrupt these weapons so the pallies can do their job.

there are many pretty decent abilities and wargear options to accomplish this, you can give them stealth (3+ cover) follow them with psychic, plasma, and deep strike defences, and more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sourclams wrote:

5 Paladins @ 350 charge 9 bog standard TH/SS Terms @ 360. 15 attacks, 10 hits, ~7 wounds due to Hammerhand, 2 dead TH/SS Terms. 7 TH/SS Terms swing, dealing 5 wounds, killing 4 Paladins, or all 5 with Null Zone or Vulkan.

TH/SS Terms lost 80 pts worth of men, Paladins lost 350. Lack of T5 or EW is a huge liability on expensive multiwound units.

Do you have any other completely irrational statements that you'd like to make today?

pallies with falchions have 5 attacks on the charge with rerolls, there are many weapons and wargearoptions that will make this a very one sided fight in their favor, from wounding on 2's with hammerhand to having the hammer terminators attach eachother instead of the paladins to removing their attacks alltogether.

so yes, in a vacuume they lose to the best close combat unit in the game, supprise supprise.
with properloadout and planning they will run house over the same squad.

I'd say take the Apothecary if you're running an entirely Paladin army+Draigo. They'll be likely to eat a lot of small-arms fire as well as the heavy stuff, so they might as well become near-immune to it anyway.

But if you're running a more balanced army with Paladins, then the Apothecary starts to lose his value, since your opponent is more likely to use his small-arms on your mooks while saving the big killy stuff for your Paladins.

Grundz wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

sourclams wrote:

5 Paladins @ 350 charge 9 bog standard TH/SS Terms @ 360. 15 attacks, 10 hits, ~7 wounds due to Hammerhand, 2 dead TH/SS Terms. 7 TH/SS Terms swing, dealing 5 wounds, killing 4 Paladins, or all 5 with Null Zone or Vulkan.

TH/SS Terms lost 80 pts worth of men, Paladins lost 350. Lack of T5 or EW is a huge liability on expensive multiwound units.

Do you have any other completely irrational statements that you'd like to make today?

pallies with falchions have 5 attacks on the charge with rerolls, there are many weapons and wargearoptions that will make this a very one sided fight in their favor, from wounding on 2's with hammerhand to having the hammer terminators attach eachother instead of the paladins to removing their attacks alltogether.

so yes, in a vacuume they lose to the best close combat unit in the game, supprise supprise.
with properloadout and planning they will run house over the same squad.

I gotta say, if you're going against a guy who's taking 10 TH/SS terminators, you got to rule in the fact that the GKPs can do a fair amount of shooting before getting into assault, what with the storm bolter shuffle.

Not to mention, if you're going against 10 TH/SS terminators, you might as well go big or go home. 10 tooled-out GKP (hey, if you can make unrealistic comparisons, so can I) would wipe a unit of TH/SS terminators off the table. Especially when you consider the other wargear options they have available.

And cost more points.

Surprise, surprise.

And did you notice that I let them get the charge? Reality is that Paladins are the new, super seductive codex option due to FNP and multiple customizable wounds, but including transport options and wargear, anything that costs eighty hundred points should be darn impressive.

They're slow as balls. People haven't been terrified of Nob Bikers or TWolf cav for months, or years. Just feed them 500 pts of ablative squads to set up your counterpunch and knock them out.

Fafnir wrote:
Not to mention, if you're going against 10 TH/SS terminators, you might as well go big or go home. 10 tooled-out GKP (hey, if you can make unrealistic comparisons, so can I) would wipe a unit of TH/SS terminators off the table. Especially when you consider the other wargear options they have available.

well yeah, pretty much, most of the said upgrades are free or very cheap and just tossing a cheap plasma-syphon inquisitor with psyk or rad grenades in and those terminators probably arent getting a swing off, even with 5 pallies.

I'm not saying they're the new competetive standard, far from it. Their high cost ensures that won't be the case (because let's face it, purifiers look fething amazing), but to compare them to TH/SS terminators is a bad idea. GKP pack so much more versatility than TH/SS terminators. The ability to lay down some serious relentless firepower is pretty important too.

sourclams wrote:And cost more points.

Surprise, surprise.

And did you notice that I let them get the charge?

You also put your hand over the free wargear options and just stated some math against a bare bones squad with no wound allocation or differentiated gear that no one will ever run, guess what i can put my hand over your wargear options and beat up a bunch of basic terminators just as easily.
you can kick and cry all you like, but your example is wholly inaccurate and you obviously havent read the real codex yet, so shhhhh.

also fafnir show me how to do glowing eyes please mr paint master XD

Why is it a bad idea? TH/SS Terminators are as common as dirt in Marine lists, and if you have 25% - 35% of your list sunk into a super death squad, not to mention its transport, which TH/SS Terms are a pretty hard counter to, how could you say that they're not going to end up in combat with them fairly frequently?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grundz wrote:You also put your hand over the free wargear options and just stated some math against a bare bones squad with no wound allocation or differentiated gear that no one will ever run, guess what i can put my hand over your wargear options and beat up a bunch of basic terminators just as easily.

Differentation means what to Instant Death? All the wargear that would make a difference to combat rez, i.e. warding staves and brotherhood banner, costs points.

Grundz wrote:
also fafnir show me how to do glowing eyes please mr paint master XD

A lot of patience and luck. Mostly luck.

But really, just start with your base colour for the eyes, and then work your way up to white/alternate colour, making the 'dab' for the eye smaller each time. For my Gallowsmen, I use Amarantha Red as the base colour, yellow as the alternate colour, and white as the... white.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sourclams wrote:Why is it a bad idea? TH/SS Terminators are as common as dirt in Marine lists, and if you have 25% - 35% of your list sunk into a super death squad, not to mention its transport, which TH/SS Terms are a pretty hard counter to, how could you say that they're not going to end up in combat with them fairly frequently?

But there'd only be 8 at most then really, 7 with a Librarian. Take an inquisitional retinue loaded up with melta guns, pop the land raider, storm-bolter shuffle accross the table, they've got to roll a few ones. When things look easy to sweep, just walk forward and meet them in combat.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grundz wrote:You also put your hand over the free wargear options and just stated some math against a bare bones squad with no wound allocation or differentiated gear that no one will ever run, guess what i can put my hand over your wargear options and beat up a bunch of basic terminators just as easily.

Differentation means what to Instant Death? All the wargear that would make a difference to combat rez, i.e. warding staves and brotherhood banner, costs points.

And I figure it should be accepted that, if you're going to be playing Paladins, you're going to invest heavily in them. They are not cheap units, and they aren't exactly cost efficient. They're a steam roller.

sourclams wrote:
Differentation means what to Instant Death?

Wow, so you don't even understand how a tourney player abuses wound allocation, nevermind then, you are just bad.
nevermind, carry on.

Fan: Ive got a few extra marines to try it on this weekend wish me luck!

Grundz wrote:

sourclams wrote:
Differentation means what to Instant Death?

Wow, so you don't even understand how a tourney player abuses wound allocation, nevermind then, you are just bad.
nevermind, carry on.

Fan: Ive got a few extra marines to try it on this weekend wish me luck!

You've got 5 models.

You've got 10 S8 power weapon wounds to allocate.

Allocate away Mr. Pro Tourney Abuser.

(Hint: It hasn't been a big deal since Nob Bikers. It's not now.)

You ignore my point that no army is putting that many shots on the paladin unit in 1 turn. Don't deliberately misinterpret what I wrote when you know what I said is perfectly valid.

I really dislike that you seem to use nothing but ideal scenarios to try proving your argument. I will give you ss/th termies vs paladins [/u]with no upgrades[u] will win easily. But arm the paladins differently and they will destroy those same terminators. No one is going to bring basic paladins to the fight because that wastes their incredible value.

Your shooting example is no different. You waste the firepower of 3 vendettas (the best anti-tank in the IG codex, btw), for 2 whole turns on 1 unit of infantry. Guess what happens when I equip them with nemesis ward staves (2++ save)? Those 10 wounds become about 1.5. Looks like a waste of 2 turns of shooting to me.

Yes we get it, paladins will die to enough heavy weapon fire or against close combat monsters. That isn't news, its common sense and simple game balance. The real thing to take notice of here is that against anything else (and even facing those problems), the paladins will be incredibly difficult to put down, hence their value.

edit: ninja'd by fafnir and grundz

Fafnir wrote:And I figure it should be accepted that, if you're going to be playing Paladins, you're going to invest heavily in them. They are not cheap units, and they aren't exactly cost efficient. They're a steam roller.

As I said in my first post, go big or go home.

Nobody is going to be taking 5 Paladins and Apothecary four times.

It's going to be one giant super death squad, that prays it can neutralize or avoid lascannon and melta fire.

sourclams wrote:

Grundz wrote:

sourclams wrote:
Differentation means what to Instant Death?

Wow, so you don't even understand how a tourney player abuses wound allocation, nevermind then, you are just bad.
nevermind, carry on.

Fan: Ive got a few extra marines to try it on this weekend wish me luck!

You've got 5 models.

You've got 10 S8 power weapon wounds to allocate.

Allocate away Mr. Pro Tourney Abuser.

(Hint: It hasn't been a big deal since Nob Bikers. It's not now.)

That makes no sense.

Assuming the 5 man GKP unit actually strikes at initiative, assuming that the unit has been upgraded to the bare minimum, the terminators will inflict 7 wounds, with 2 of them dead anyway.

And that's assuming no falchions were taken, and no warding staves. Assuming a majority of swords, that means that it's a 4+ invulnerable on the unit.

Regardless, it's still an utterly rediculous comparison, those terminators would likely be shot a fair bit before reaching combat, especially with a 10 man unit and Librarian.

Bruteboss wrote:Your shooting example is no different. You waste the firepower of 3 vendettas (the best anti-tank in the IG codex, btw), for 2 whole turns on 1 unit of infantry. Guess what happens when I equip them with nemesis ward staves (2++ save)? Those 10 wounds become about 1.5. Looks like a waste of 2 turns of shooting to me.

No, you miss the point that I shot 390 points of units at 360 points of units and watched them disappear. Nemesis Warding Staves are in CC only. And cost points.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
So le'ts turn this around. Instead of me trying to stress test the unit in bad but likely scenarios, you all throw out the Paladin unit builds that you're going to try to feature in your lists.

Well I'll agree with ph34r and sourclams. Paladins are pretty awful, and the apothecary doesn't make them any better. Additionally, people are talking like FNP Terminators are something new. If I want FNP Terminators I'll play BA, use Assault Terminators with Storm Shields and have 2 Priests bubble two units of said TH/SS Terminators AND 20 jump packers with PF sergeants with FNP AND FC for a bargain amount of points. Heck, I can even deep strike those Terminators in Land Raiders alongside the jump packers if I wanted.

No matter how we try to spin it, GK Terminators of all types are worse than the BA and vanilla variants. GK's in power armour aren't so bad because the 5 points per model price tag buys a force weapon, aegis and a warp quake. They're not undercosted either but atleast they're not plain bad like the Paladins.

sourclams wrote:

You've got 5 models.

You've got 10 S8 power weapon wounds to allocate.

Allocate away Mr. Pro Tourney Abuser.

each model takes 2 wounds (in theory, which they wont)
each model has a 4+ invulnerable
each model has a 25% chance of surviving, so likelyhood is you are only killing ~3 models, not the whole squad, because the overflow failures dont get into other wound groups

some situations may be:
5 pallies with falchions, hammerhand
25 swings, ~16.5 hits, ~15 wounds, 7 dead terminators, return blows kill 2.5 pallies
5 pallies with falchions, hammerhand, xenos inquisitor
25 swings, ~16.5 hits ~16.5 wounds (2+w/ reroll), 8 dead terminators, return blows kill an average of 1 paladin if the inquisitor didnt get him
Haeriticium inquisitor is slightly less wounds but there's about a 1/2 chance of losing zero pallies

each model has a 4+ invulnerable

Unless you're talking about 4+ cover saves, they have 5+ invulnerable saves. The force weapon bonus applies in close combat only.

Therion wrote:

each model has a 4+ invulnerable

Unless you're talking about 4+ cover saves, they have 5+ invulnerable saves. The force weapon bonus applies in close combat only.

good thing we are talking about close combat, isnt it?

The problem is that people keep comparing GKT to TH/SS terminators.

They're not. They're really not. GKT and GKP are built to fight entire armies, TH/SS terminators are built to fight big ass scary melon-fethers. Two completely different mindsets there.

good thing we are talking about close combat, isnt it?

I really doubt he was talking about close combat only when he brought up Vendettas and lascannons.

Nemesis Warding Staves are in CC only. And cost points.

...and you only get one per unit.

Therion wrote:

Nemesis Warding Staves are in CC only. And cost points.

...and you only get one per unit.

Where does it say that? I mean, I'm just looking at the scandex right now, so nothing official, but it says that any model may exchange their sword for a stave. Sure, it's costly, but it's perfectly fine purchase. I'd probably run 1-1.5 staves for every 5 men.

Grundz wrote:some situations may be:
5 pallies with falchions, hammerhand
25 swings, ~16.5 hits, ~15 wounds, 7 dead terminators, return blows kill 2.5 pallies
5 pallies with falchions, hammerhand, xenos inquisitor
25 swings, ~16.5 hits ~16.5 wounds (2+w/ reroll), 8 dead terminators, return blows kill an average of 1 paladin if the inquisitor didnt get him
Haeriticium inquisitor is slightly less wounds but there's about a 1/2 chance of losing zero pallies

Yep. LC Terminators trump TH/SS Terminators. We've known that for... ever, basically. And yet almost nobody takes them, because they get shot to death, have little value versus vehicles, and quite frankly Preferred Enemy Black Templar Furious Charging LC Terms do it better, and from a lance-immune Land Raider.

Seriously, the things that are being made a big deal of, FNP and customizability, are not new. Nob Bikers are actually as resistent to S3-6 shooting as Paladins, and moreso versus AP2 or ID. TWolf Cav can run with Wolf Lords and SS carriers to bounce stray AP1/2.

Paladins are expensive and horrendously slow, and the only thing that compensates for their speed (a 200+ point transport) compounds their first issue.

Where does it say that?

A lot of things changed for the worse in the actual codex you know?

sourclams wrote:
Paladins are expensive and horrendously slow, and the only thing that compensates for their speed (a 200+ point transport) compounds their first issue.

As long as your comfortable to keep shifting your arguement, okay.

librarian gate, deep striking, a GM giving scout, or a stormraven can also make them rather quick.

Scout is the only thing that actually breaks my argument, and that still has a lot of problems. They lack fleet so they're guaranteed to get shot again, and that's an issue with the 5+ while being conveniently in meltagun range in addition to whatever high S low AP stuff the other guy brought.

Libby has the same problem the Paladins do, i.e. he has to get there before he can yoyo people about.

Stormraven is an aforementioned 200+ point transport.

DS leaves them off the table for at least 1 turn, and quite frankly if DSing Terminators was good, we'd see it with TH/SS and Deathwing Terminators before now. Mordrack is a slight boost with the 1st turn deep strike, but you still have very real problems getting shot to death. on the turn you arrive, far from the rest of your support list.

When DKs were S7/T7 4++ bullet soakers, a GK alpha strike list seemed to have merit, and it still might, but it's simply a large rock and players will find a way around it.

I think my overall argument -- that Paladins are an expensive unit that bring nothing actually new to the game that Nob Bikers, Twolf Cav and BA terminators haven't already shown people for a year -- has been quite consistent. In spite of the efforts of a few to 'kit out' a Paladin squad to deal with everything, they still cost a crap load of points, are slow, and die to all the same shooting that has dealt with Nobz and TWC.

ph34r wrote:The apothecary costs 55+75=130 points

That is absurd. The apothecary doesn't even help you against the weapons your enemy is going to shoot at your paladins: things that instant death them.

This is basically my point. FnP on a measly Plague Marine squad doesnt draw much Heavy weapons fire, because they're cheap enough that you can bring in a good mass of them, rendering shooting them with heavy weapons unfeasable (it's just easier to pump more bolter shells or lasgun fire into them and hope they fail their saves). GKPs however, are 2 wound terminators. First thing that comes to mind is Instant Death. Second thing is AP2. Throw on FnP and you got three reasons why you should divert firepower away from tanks and into this unit. Normal terminators, at best, will attract AP2 weaponry, never S8 (unless it has AP1 or 2 as well). They also bring more attacks to the party and, if the calculations others have made are correct, just the same amount of wounds.

Paladins seem good if you run them without Apothecaries, as it's extra points that seems to be wasted. Statistically you have to force 12 armor saves or 4 Invulnerable saves to kill a single Paladin. If you run them barebones, they're only 15 points more than normal termies and have twice the amount of survivability against small arms fire.

Deathstar units are potential here, but remember: you're paying out the ass for them. A IG heavy weapons squad can field 3 lascannons for the cost of just less than 2 Paladins. They can also field a Basilisk for the cost of just over 2 (which has the potential to ID at least 4 Paladins a turn). This is personally why I started this thread, since after the initial fanboyism wore off, I realised how big of a liability the Apothecary was, and was wondering if anyone could find a use for them for their exorborant cost.

Once again, I see Apothecaries only really making back their value in a Draigo army.

Grundz wrote:good thing we are talking about close combat, isnt it?

Good, but not good enough, because your Falchion terminators have 5++ invulnerable saves in close combat too. Why would you think they would get 4++ using not-swords?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Paladins' main problem is this:

"okay, how does this help me against a mech army"

Just ask yourself that every time you look at your 400 point 5 man close combat squad. You will soon realize that for 400 points you have purchased a squad that costs as much as 2 enemy mech squads, and will never get into combat with them

ph34r wrote:

Grundz wrote:good thing we are talking about close combat, isnt it?

Good, but not good enough, because your Falchion terminators have 5++ invulnerable saves in close combat too. Why would you think they would get 4++ using not-swords?

Probably because I was responding to his example, whein they /did/ have basic wargear (swords)

Grundz wrote:

ph34r wrote:

Grundz wrote:good thing we are talking about close combat, isnt it?

Good, but not good enough, because your Falchion terminators have 5++ invulnerable saves in close combat too. Why would you think they would get 4++ using not-swords?

Probably because I was responding to his example, whein they /did/ have basic wargear (swords)

Try to make up your mind. Your Paladins have a different set of wargear in every example

ph34r wrote:Just ask yourself that every time you look at your 400 point 5 man close combat squad.

I think this is your biggest issue: Assuming that Paladins will be used strictly for assaulting things. While I don't know anything about what kind of wargear they'd get, I'd assume that they get the option to buy some fancy upgrades over their storm bolters. Having a moveable weapons platform which doesn't suck in close combat isn't too bad. The apothecary also makes the Paladins able to wade through Kan wall lists, and last I looked most IG lists rely on autocannons for transport popping, with melta for the heavy stuff. You've got to be pretty close to get melta shots off.

yeah, if the Palidins are in melta and plasma gun range, whatever is shooting them is going to be in combat with them pretty quick.

Sorry, nooby question (I haven't read anything on GK besides what GWS has shown on the website) Why does everyone say they will never get into combat? Do they have slow and purposful? And can't that be easily countered by stciking them in a LR or a stormraven?

They are saying that if they footslog(which no one that plays competitively will do) they won't.

No one is saying (really) that they wont get into cc. Their problem is lack of fast movement (just normal infantry) when they want to get into cc as fast as possible.

The main point seems to be that they are so incredibly good at their job that the opponent will be pointing every weapon they can at them in order to kill them first...

and what else is new?


any really good CC unit is going to be drawing excessive fire. these guys just happen to be really good at ignoring the most effective Termi killer of massed bolter/lasgun/shurikan fire. they are more vulnerable to lascannons then regular terminators simply because of their high cost, but it's the tradeoff.

Sourclams is generally quite good as these paladins seem to suck Grundz is indicating that they use librarians or stormraven thats an additonial 200pts for an easy transport kill 12 12 12 stormravens are lame plus there not all the way out.

Do try and use some basic punctuation.

The Enter key at least to seperate your sentences.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ph34r wrote:Just ask yourself that every time you look at your 400 point 5 man close combat squad.

I think this is your biggest issue: Assuming that Paladins will be used strictly for assaulting things. While I don't know anything about what kind of wargear they'd get, I'd assume that they get the option to buy some fancy upgrades over their storm bolters. Having a moveable weapons platform which doesn't suck in close combat isn't too bad. The apothecary also makes the Paladins able to wade through Kan wall lists, and last I looked most IG lists rely on autocannons for transport popping, with melta for the heavy stuff. You've got to be pretty close to get melta shots off.

Well, If you want to use 315 points of paladins to tote around storm bolters and 2 psycannons, that's your choice. I think the more sane choice is 10 grey knights wielding 4 psycannons for 280 points (purifiers).

Indeed the only way to justify buying Paladins would be to throw them into combat, and even then it's doubtful if they can make back their point costs.

They, however, will draw even more fire than usual, given their 2 wound status and 2+ armor save.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Indeed the only way to justify buying Paladins would be to throw them into combat, and even then it's doubtful if they can make back their point costs.

They, however, will draw even more fire than usual, given their 2 wound status and 2+ armor save.

No, the only way to justify Paladins would be to use both their ranged and close combat prowess effectively.

Grey Knights have always had trouble with maneuverability, this really shouldn't come as a shock.

I never said you couldnt shoot with them. But trying to keep them away from combat is just wasting points.

imweasel wrote:

Bruteboss wrote:I just need to address how ridiculous this example is. You're talking about wounds here, not even shots. Thats 20+ BS 3 lascannon shots at a single unit in cover!

1) What the hell was the idiot GK player in this scenario doing putting paladins in line of sight of 20+ heavy weapons?

and

2) What kind of army can afford to fire 20 or more heavy weapons at a single unit of infantry?

For the vast majority of armies, those 20+ heavy weapons represent their entire firepower, IG included. Name a codex and I can guarantee that competitive lists for it will be around the 15-30 heavy weapon mark. And thats the entire army we're talking about remember.

In reality, the paladins are going to be deploying out of a stormraven or landraider. I'd pick the stormraven because after coming in fast from reserve, they'll probably be able to hit the enemy lines in cc by turn 3-4. Compare the survivability of paladins versus terminators in that scenario and I think you'll see clearly that paladins win. Hence why they are an expensive elite choice for the army and not just troops.

The example is not ridiculous. He didn't say 'put 10 lascannon wounds on them in one turn'. He merely stated that it takes 10 lascannon wounds to kill a paladin squad in cover. You don't think that over 2-3 turns of shooting some lascannons at them you can't genereate 10 wounds?

Vs most of the ranged weapons fire that will be directed at paladins, they are not going to be anymore survivable than regular terminators.

That is the problem with all of his counter examples... Pure rock-paper-scissors... Sounds great in discussions but never equates to the reality of real life play on a table involving good players.

I like the thought of putting 4 Psycannons in a 10 man paladin squad. Stupidly expensive squad but that does let you kill Assault termies with your rending rolls as it would ignore armour and invun saves and also damage land raiders.

I think giving the apoth to a paladin squad is ok. It protects you against other problems like Eldar or Tyranids bringing all those small arm weapons against them.

Psy weapons don't ignore Invulns anymore.

they just add +1Str to the gun.

Grey Templar wrote:Psy weapons don't ignore Invulns anymore.

they just add +1Str to the gun.

Damn. Thought I had something to put down that stupid seer council tactic :(

You do. I6 power weapons and a psychic hood that says 'no Fortune for you'.

obsidianaura wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Psy weapons don't ignore Invulns anymore.

they just add +1Str to the gun.

Damn. Thought I had something to put down that stupid seer council tactic :(

Vindicare. 1st shot the Farseer looses his only save. Then just land a S6+ attack on him. Dead Seer Council.

1st you shoot the shield breaker round.

next turn you shoot the Turbo-penetrator.


the Farseer has only 2 wounds IIRC so he should be dead.

I just don't think Paladins are going to be all that great because they are much too slow. You are sinking tons of points into a unit that can only do so much per turn. What is funny is that in some circles the Stormraven is suddenly en vogue now. That is such a hoot.

As far as the Apothecary goes if you are paying all those points you might as well go all the way. He is definitely overpriced though.

Grey Templar wrote:1st you shoot the shield breaker round.

next turn you shoot the Turbo-penetrator.


the Farseer has only 2 wounds IIRC so he should be dead.

3 wounds, but the Shield Breaker will wound him on a 4+, and if you wound with the Turbo Penetrator, that will be two more wounds that will kill him.

FNP as an upgrade costs almost 1.5 the cost of a paladin, and they are already expensive. On top of the high cost pallies are 2 wound models with a 2+ armor save, so regular wounds are already a minimal threat to the pallies. Its paying buckets of points to better protect against a minimal threat. The stuff most likely to kill pallies is the same stuff that ignores fnp.

Grey Templar wrote:1st you shoot the shield breaker round.

next turn you shoot the Turbo-penetrator.


the Farseer has only 2 wounds IIRC so he should be dead.

I thought the vindicare assassin only got to assign wounds using his sniper ability? As such, can he actually pick out which model he is shooting at with the shield breaker round? I haven't read that much of the released codex yet, so I could be completely wrong...

If someone could post the actual wording, that would be great.

I cannot provide actual wording, but he allows the attacking player to allocate wounds to any member of the squad the assassin is firing at. Similar to Sergeant Telion's ability.

Footsloggin wrote:I cannot provide actual wording, but he allows the attacking player to allocate wounds to any member of the squad the assassin is firing at. Similar to Sergeant Telion's ability.

Well the shield breaker round doesn't cause 'a wound'. So how in the world would the vindi be allowed to allocate which model is taking the shield breaker round?

The new 2 rules in question say:

Deadshot - Wounds caused by a Vindicare's shooting attacks are always allocated by the Vindicare's controlling player.
Shield Breaker - When a WOUND from this round is allocated to a model it loses any invulnerable save granted to it by wargear immediatley and for the rest of the game. Remaining saves(if any) can still be taken.

So that answers that question, using deadshot you allocate the wound of the shield breaker round. The only other thing to point out is now the rifle is AP 1 and its heavy, so the Vindicare cant move and shoot.

imweasel wrote:

Footsloggin wrote:I cannot provide actual wording, but he allows the attacking player to allocate wounds to any member of the squad the assassin is firing at. Similar to Sergeant Telion's ability.

Well the shield breaker round doesn't cause 'a wound'. So how in the world would the vindi be allowed to allocate which model is taking the shield breaker round?

If you follow down that line no model would ever be affected because you can't allocate the shot at all which is obviously BS ;-).

he might not think it causes wounds because there is not Str value.



the Exitus rifle is a Sniper rifle, and as such causes wounds on a 4+ and has the rending special rule. the special ammo is on top of this(obviously the Hellfire round wound on 2+)

The mathhammer has been interesting, but it strikes me as a digression from the central point of whether FNP is forth the points on a Paladin unit.

It seems to me that having one Paladin unit without FNP will make it a high priority target for saturated small arms fire, whilst giving it FNP will make it a high priority target for heavy anti-tank fire. And it's probably going to be more of a metagame issue as to which option will give the better mileage.

On the other hand, several Paladin squads with FNP, whilst being horrendously expensive, will be a frightening prospect for any army not already packed to the gills with S8 AP2. Especially if their supporting units can neutralise any SS/TH or LC units (or such) able to win at stone-paper-scissors.

Though good luck getting a return on such an investment...

Target saturation would be the only way to use paladins with apothecaries, but that goes against the whole "I'm expensive as hell" thing. Given that the current meta is geared towards vehicle destruction (hence, high strength and high AP) FnP is probably not worth it, especially when a meager 5 wounds will wipe the entire squad.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Vindicare. 1st shot the Farseer looses his only save. Then just land a S6+ attack on him. Dead Seer Council.

Its still easier to kill a Vindicare than a farseer in a seer council who are probably in a vehicle(especially a wave serpent).

W2 T4, stealth, 6+ FNP is not very resilient when they are left alone.

with a 36" range he is most definitly sitting in a terrain piece in the GK deployment zone.

Stealth means he's got a 3+ cover save too.


and who runs foot councils

the Vindicare's just going to turbo-penetrate the Waveserpant and make them walk(Holo-fields won't help much against 4d6)


The assassin will be impossable to dig out with shooting and you really can't afford to chase shadows while the Gks rip through your lines.

Zonder wrote:The new 2 rules in question say:

Deadshot - Wounds caused by a Vindicare's shooting attacks are always allocated by the Vindicare's controlling player.
Shield Breaker - When a WOUND from this round is allocated to a model it loses any invulnerable save granted to it by wargear immediatley and for the rest of the game. Remaining saves(if any) can still be taken.

So that answers that question, using deadshot you allocate the wound of the shield breaker round. The only other thing to point out is now the rifle is AP 1 and its heavy, so the Vindicare cant move and shoot.

Ahh...

Well that works then. So you roll to hit and wound, then allocate the wound. So in addition to taking a wound you lose your invul save. Very nasty.

and you don't get to take an Invuln save to stop the invun removing round.

and since it's ap1 you don't get armor or FnP either.

Grey Templar wrote:and you don't get to take an Invuln save to stop the invun removing round.

and since it's ap1 you don't get armor or FnP either.

Yep. Only cover saves after getting hit by a shield breaker round. Of course, it only works if you take a wound.

Sourclams: The math refutes your Vendetta Paladin killing power claims. You need 6 Vendetta to wipe the paladin squad: 9 T-L Bs 3 shots = 6.375 hits, which equals 5.3125 wounds, You said they were in cover so that is 2.65625 unsaved wounds/ Vendetta Squadron.

A single Ordnance Barrage could do it(if they were behind cover not in it), but the chances of it landing on target is roughly 20%, on a Basilisk(% chance to score a hit or only scatter 2" and somehow still hit all 5, and wound all 5, with all 5 failing their 5++)

So 18 BS3 Twin linked Lascannons/Melta to expect a dead squad, 24 BS3 non-t-l Sr 6+, Ap 2- weapons, 18 BS4 non-t-l Sr 6+, Ap 2- weapons, or 14 BS4 t-l Sr 6+, Ap 2- weapons.

Apothecaries are more worth it the larger the squad of Paladins, with about 7 being the magic number (then you're paying a little more than 10 points per model for FNP - a fair trade IMO).

The bit about 10 Lascannon wounds from Vendettas strikes me as hilarious. I mean, yea, sure, you can do it, but that's a lot of anti-tank fire that didn't target the Psyflemen Dreads that'll presently be shooting those birds out of the sky, or the rhinos carrying Strike Squads to the midfield, etc.

Paladins should serve the same role that TWC or Death Company do in other armies: Provide a distraction. A scary, credible threat of a distraction that can turn the game in your favor, but a distraction nevertheless. Adding FNP only makes them more potent, and is worth it, I feel.

bhsman wrote:
The bit about 10 Lascannon wounds from Vendettas strikes me as hilarious. I mean, yea, sure, you can do it, but that's a lot of anti-tank fire that didn't target the Psyflemen Dreads that'll presently be shooting those birds out of the sky, or the rhinos carrying Strike Squads to the midfield, etc.

Paladins should serve the same role that TWC or Death Company do in other armies: Provide a distraction. A scary, credible threat of a distraction that can turn the game in your favor, but a distraction nevertheless. Adding FNP only makes them more potent, and is worth it, I feel.

But just how many Dreads, Rhinos, Strike squads etc you will be taking if you spend bulk of your points to Paladin squad?

The problem with palladins in general as I see it before the codex comes out officially with Palladins is that they have 3 ways to get where they need to go. Walking into a shooting gallery, a LR, or a SR. Walking is going to get them shot a lot. And while they can be put into some vehicles, that adds min 200 points to their price tag already. Nob bikers are much better overall because they have so much mobility without another unit to carry them around. Palladins can be used I think if you build a list around them and make the scoring, and they may carry some shock and awe value but they will need to be very carefully used to be worth taking.

Short of taking two 10-man squads with all the fixings, I'm not seeing the 'bulk' part.

Grey Templar wrote:with a 36" range he is most definitly sitting in a terrain piece in the GK deployment zone.

Stealth means he's got a 3+ cover save too.


and who runs foot councils

the Vindicare's just going to turbo-penetrate the Waveserpant and make them walk(Holo-fields won't help much against 4d6)


The assassin will be impossable to dig out with shooting and you really can't afford to chase shadows while the Gks rip through your lines.

Wave serpents use engery fields that prevent you using more than 1D6 to pen and all shots can only ever count as high as Str 8. Against ranged attacks that are on the front or side. Makes it hard to deal with.

The pain for me has been the council on Jetbikes its hard to deal with :(

obsidianaura wrote:
Wave serpents use engery fields that prevent you using more than 1D6 to pen and all shots can only ever count as high as Str 8. Against ranged attacks that are on the front or side. Makes it hard to deal with.

The pain for me has been the council on Jetbikes its hard to deal with :(

Guide, Doom, and Fortune work at the start of your turn. You can cast and then turboboost, situation permitting. Should be possible to maintain fortune-self, doom-other that way.

I have been playtesting GK since the leaked dex hit, and I have tested them extensively since the black box hit.

I have played with and against GKP and I can say without a doubt in my mind that they are a useless points sink in this army.

They are so expensive in an already expensive army - It isn't that they are *BAD* - there are just far better choices in the codex.

I challenge you to post a good list using them.
Any list you post with them, I will IMPROVE by replacing them with a cheaper, more focused unit.

Anyone accept my challenge?

I will only accept a duel...because, after all, I killed your father.

PREPARE TO DIE!!!!

Inconceivable

OMFG inigo is going to kill a tournament organizer!!!!

I think it should be pretty clear if you are spending 25% of your points on a single unit / it more times than not will only benefit from an army being created around it.

as far as movement:
Deep Strike
Lib:
1) Stealth (hell in a vehicle)
2) summoning

my 2 cents
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

one thing I haven't seen yet:
1 single paladin w/ psy can + ammo + mastercrafted
=
str 8 (rending might I add)

4/2 shots

re-rolls on both / all

all this on a 2 wound for a cool 100 = priceless

thats like 50 pts cheaper than the dread, and can be stealth.
to bad its not 36 anymore lol

quietus wrote:one thing I haven't seen yet:
1 single paladin w/ psy can + ammo + mastercrafted
=
str 8 (rending might I add)

4/2 shots

re-rolls on both / all

all this on a 2 wound for a cool 100 = priceless

thats like 50 pts cheaper than the dread, and can be stealth.
to bad its not 36 anymore lol

Likely since like, none of it is legal.

Minimum 5 paladins before any of them get any gun upgrades(no Psycannon)

Psycannons already have Psybolt Ammo(no S8 rending)
.

Exergy wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Vindicare. 1st shot the Farseer looses his only save. Then just land a S6+ attack on him. Dead Seer Council.

Its still easier to kill a Vindicare than a farseer in a seer council who are probably in a vehicle(especially a wave serpent).

W2 T4, stealth, 6+ FNP is not very resilient when they are left alone.

Most seer councils I've played against are the bike variety. The ones in crappy non assault boats don't scare anyone who knows how to move. GKs don't have the much trouble popping wave serpents either. High volume of S7 and 8 fire will pop them.