So, as I start mulling over options for a new army, I'm once again starting with one of the couple of codecies I have access to: Chaos space marines. I've narrowed it down to 3 options...

A.)

5xCSM, 2x melta, fist, rhino
- 170

5xCSM, 2x melta, fist, rhino
- 170

5xCSM, 2x melta, fist, rhino
- 170

Sorcerer, gifts, wings
- 150

Sorcerer, gifts, wings
- 150


14-man raptor squad with LCs, 2x melta, IoCG

14-man raptor squad with LCs, 2x melta, IoCG



or...

B.)


5xCSM, 2x melta, fist, rhino
- 170

5xCSM, 2x melta, fist, rhino
- 170

5xCSM, 2x melta, fist, rhino
- 170

Sorcerer, gifts, bike
- 160

Sorcerer, gifts, bike
- 160


8 chaos bikers, fist, 2x melta


8 chaos bikers, fist, 2x melta


or...


C.)


5xCSM, 2x melta, fist, rhino
- 170

5xCSM, 2x melta, fist, rhino
- 170

5xCSM, 2x melta, fist, rhino
- 170

Sorcerer, gifts, terminator armor
- 145

Sorcerer, gifts, terminator armor
- 145

8 terminators, 3 lightning claws, 2 chainfists, champ with claws, MoK

8 terminators, 3 lightning claws, 2 chainfists, champ with claws, MoK

So, I like C because it's ludicrous. I can't imagine anything in the game I can't roflstomp with 8 MoK termies with a gifts sorcerer. Then, of course, I bring TWO of them. The problem with C is that it's slow. There are a fair number of skimmer armies where I play, and I'm sort of starting to get sick of chasing them down on foot.

Which brings me to list B. 24" turboboosting? Catching skimmers is no problem. This option also affords me the best flexibility. Not only is in the most mobile, but it has a strong shooting element with the twin-linked bolters if ever I don't want to get into close combat. My biggest complaint, though, is that this list seems really low-powered. It still has the core of chaos space marine awesomeness, but I'm only bringing 16 of them. I don't think that chaos bikes are overcosted, but I'd have to do a pretty darn good job of using them to squeeze out their more limited potential.

Which brings me to list A. Raptors fix this obnoxious problem I have of having to chase down stuff. Simultaneously, with all that chainswording, it actually packs a pretty decent punch. My biggest gripe with this list is that it's, by far, the most fragile. The fate of the army depends on 30 dudes in power armor making it work exactly right. Plus, without 2+/5++ or T5 3+/3++, I fear for their durability.

In any case, I'm looking for something bombastic and flashy, and this is my first attempt so far. What do you guys think?

I question the usefulness of putting fists in 5-man squads. It's not a good idea in C:SM lists and its probably not too hot of an idea in CSM either. You can save 40pts per squad if you drop the Champion and the fist which, across three squads, would allow you to buy another squad.

You also need a squad size of 10 to have a second meltagun.

L. Wrex

I think he can have 2x melta in the squads if they are dedicated CSMs. Anyway, the lists are lacking long-distance firepower.

Raptors, bikes are just not effective to me, but to each his own. If I had to pick, I would go with the bikes list I guess. CSM termies are better used as suicide units. The bikes list helps with the lack of firepower though by hitting like the tip of the spear.

Any ideas sir?

No, Lycaeus is right. I can't have two meltaguns unless I have 10-man squads. Originally, my plan was to have 4 10-man squads without rhinos, but I'm looking to skimp a bit on the infantry so that I can put more pizzaz in my glamor units.

Lack of long-range firepower is not a concern of mine. ESPECIALLY when I've got things like bikes or raptors. My only problem with tanks is catching them (which means I don't have problems with tanks at close range unless they're skimmers).

That or if they're terminators. I've routinely trashed terminator-heavy armies with my power blobs, but I've got a feeling that they're doing it wrong. The math is there, which is why I'd even bother to consider them. I mean, for example, the above setup for a terminator squad kills something like 24 guardsmen on the charge. If anything survives, I can always use gifts on it. My only problem is that I'd have to chase down skimmers the old fashioned way...

Also, I'm not too concerned about the effectiveness of the faster options, honestly. Remember, they're going to have BS4 melta, krak grenades and a guy with a force weapon and gifts of chaos. That puts vehicles, monstrous creatures, and deathstars in their place in an awful hurry.

The real question is what to do with the troops. I was using rhinos to target saturate against the bling part of the list, but that might not be possible while still having even remotely useful troops choices.

I'm a worshipper of Khorne but I have used Nurgle forces, and the plaguefather has been very, VERY kind to me. Plague Marines outfitted with special weapons are devastating. Their FnP and T5 makes them many times more survivable than standard marines than their points total might suggest. They also have all types of grenades (minus melta bombs) as standard, meaning they arn't afraid of being charged. This makes them great as a unit you drive up, dump and rapid fire the crap out of whatever is close enough. They're hard to kill, annoying as hell, and fun to convert. And they're very cost effectve (given that each one has more than twice the survivability of a normal marine with one extra grenade and costing only 7 points more makes them a steal).

Nurgle Bikers are kinda expensive, but you then get a T6 Bike that can run around firing melta guns or plasma guns. Bolters and Lasguns will curse your name. Both of these units can be good distraction units to draw away heavy weapons fire (S8+ weapons will be the only effective counter against both) from your bling units.

Are MoN terminators worth considering? I know that CSM don't have storm shields, but perhaps T5 2+/5++ would be enough?

Oh, and I just did the math on guardsmen v. plague marines and loled. 72 lasgun shots to down a single marine?

yes, PMs are retardedly survivable. I face a guard footslogger army once with 2 squads of 20 plague marines. 750 points of dead guardsman, three dead PMs (one due to a meltagun shot). They're awesome distilled into pus form. They're also perfect canidates for Power Fists, as their I3 means that against anything but guard or Orks, they're not at an initiative penalty.

I use Nurgle Terminators purely for a themed force (I like Typhus and he deserves his own bodyguard). However I dont like them as a whole, since you'd be trying to punch through the Terminator armor first, and (usually) anything strong enough to punch through that also wounds a T5 model on a 3 or a 2+ anyways. If you do run them, run them as a DSing squad with max squads (to make the most out of the Nurgle Icon) and Combi-Meltas. It'd make an ass out of anyone's day.

Why deepstrike them? Wouldn't T5 help them with walking?

Were I to do the terminator option, they'd be walking in either case. The question would be to lose one or two more along the way and make up for it with +1A on everybody, or to simply loose less along the way?

I do see your point about them collecting lascannon fire, though, which is bad for a more expensive model for whom T5 is their best attribute. Of course, for less than 4 points a model, that's not actually THAT bad. Regardless of the terminator strategy, they would be relying on numbers more than anything else to be successful. The problem, of course, is this bothersome slowness thing. I just can't see how the speed of nurgle bikers justifies them doing half the damage for a slightly greater cost. Perhaps it's just because I don't "get" biker armies.

I havent used Nurgle Bikers actually, mostly because Plague Marines take up the most of my Nurgle army. However, if you are going to have expensive bikes running around shooting at stuff (really, the only thing bikes are good at. Berserkers are much better in assault, even if they're slower) then the MoN is the best for them. I prefer MoN over MoT better because a 5+ save really isnt that comforting, and being T6 they might not get as much high AP flak as terminators (who actually warrents the high AP). They can also turboboost if necessary.

DSing Terminators can still be devastating, since they're quite a bit cheaper than normal Terminators and pack some heavy punch with twin-linked bolters. They're not really going to sit a whole round doing nothing, and this way they onyl suffer one round of shooting as opposed to 2 or more they will spending running across the board.

So would you assume that such a termie nurgle list at 1500 would look something like...

7 plague marines, fist, 2x melta, rhino
-256

7 plague marines, fist, 2x melta, rhino
-256

Sorcerer, gifts, terminator armor
- 145

Sorcerer, gifts, terminator armor
- 145

8 terminators, 2 lightning claws, chainfist, champ with fist, 2x combi-melta, MoN
-350

8 terminators, 2 lightning claws, chainfist, champ with claws, 2x combi-melta, MoN
-345

On the one hand, I see your point about wanting to deepstrike in and termicide something when they arrive. On the other hand, the primary purpose of these guys is to laugh at stuff in close combat, including gross stuff like death company.

Plus... I don't know how brave I feel about deepstriking 500 point squads into melta range...

I personally wouldnt take Power Fists at all on termies. The points can be better spent elsewhere imo. Chainfists are much better and for everything else you'd want to use the Termie's I4 with a Power Weapon.

For Plague Marines, run them in squads of 10. It's unfluffy, but very powerful. A squad of 10 PMs pump out 6 more bolter shots when doing drive by shootings and add another 6 CC attacks. I would also only take one squad of termies (unless you really like them) as PM spam does work, and very effectively too.

I would switch out Gift for Wind of Chaos. it's basically a AP1 Poisoned Flamer (which fits with the Nurgle theme very well). and will probably kill a lot more than Gift. Gift is really fun though, especially when you turn your opponent's most precious character into a mewling spawn.

Finally, maybe consider a unit of MoN Havocs. T5 is one of the better upgrades for them since they can take alot more ranged punishment now. Oblits are nice, but given that you have experience in ranged combat, you should be able to make the most of Havocs (which are much cheaper than Oblits if you have a set goal for them). Plus Oblits get ID'd from a single lascannon shot, CSM will probably just loose a bolter-member instead.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:I personally wouldnt take Power Fists at all on termies. The points can be better spent elsewhere imo. Chainfists are much better and for everything else you'd want to use the Termie's I4 with a Power Weapon.

Ah, see, I was getting confused by your advice to take power fists, which I now see was directed towards the plague marines only.

Drop the combi-meltas for a second chainfist, or is the one chainfist+2 melta shots enough?

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Plague Marines, run them in squads of 10. It's unfluffy, but very powerful.

If I have the points. The choice of 7 was not for fluff reasons.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:I would switch out Gift for Wind of Chaos. it's basically a AP1 Poisoned Flamer (which fits with the Nurgle theme very well). and will probably kill a lot more than Gift. Gift is really fun though, especially when you turn your opponent's most precious character into a mewling spawn.

So, gifts has got to stay. Not only for the cool factor, I'm bringing it for tactical reasons.

As I said before, I'm not looking for the most competitive ever, but I'm also looking to make sure that nothing has a horrible trump on it.

One of those things that my second army must be able to handle is my first army. I'm actually pretty confident that a khorne army would be able to handle a power blob. Sure, they're not going to be able to scoop down to the zesty innards on turn 1, but power blobs rely on damage over time, and they just don't get as much time against khorne units. Now, needing to wound on 6's sounds pretty tough to me with nurgle, but I fear that a unit of plague marines and a power blob would just tar pit each other, and my blobs lists have more troops units than this nurgle army.

Hence gifts. Power blobs don't do so hot when you lose the commissar. The commissar is lost on a 4+ with gifts. I like those odds. Likewise, a jetlock council is tough to beat, but once the T3 farseer explodes, those invul saves stop being rerollable. Yeah, I know eldar have psychic defense, but I'm bringing TWO sorcerers...

An Ap1 poisoned flamer does sound nice, but I don't think I'd get as much deathstar-killing power out of it. Plus, if I'm running the sorcerers with close-combat terminators, I don't want to kill myself out of a charge.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Finally, maybe consider a unit of MoN Havocs.

Sure, but with what points? I'm not looking for a well-balanced army, I'm looking for a flashy and bombastic army.

such a squad would cost 220 points. I can scarcely take them from troops, and I'd be seriously reducing my flash if I took them away from the terminators/raptors/bikes. I mean, I might consider taking a little bit away to flesh out my troops a little more.

Other thoughts:

- I've been assuming to run the sorcerers in the flash squads, is there an argument to be made for taking them with the plague marines?

- For competitiveness, there are really only 3 armies that I want to have appropriate stomping power against. The first is power blob equivalent armies. The second is mech-guard-equivalent armies with the third being DE raider spam. A nurgle-based army would probably be fine against the former, but I'm having a little unease with regards to mechvets, especially since in their eldar incarnation, they've got skimmers. Are nurgle armies okay against DE? The poison thing sounds like it neutralizes the main advantage of nurgle, but they still get their FNP. Can this chase down raiders in enough time to stop poisoned weapons from just ripping them apart?

My best advice to you at this point is to go read some other CSM lists in this forum aswell as some Chaos Tactica in the Articles section if you are serious about playing them competetively.

You have some good ideas but your squad sizes and wargear are all over the map.

Hope to see another list out of you soon!

Alright- I want to add on to what the above posters have said- you're on the right track; but looking at other lists will give you some ideas. Now, I have only played my CSM a couple of times, and have picked up some useful tidbits:

1. No matter how much you love them, CSM got a bit of the short end of the sticks in the codex department. FOr an assaulting army, their fast attacks are horribly overpriced and bad. 20 points pere raptor? the SM variant is cheaper, and better. Bikers are, as well, overcosted for their points. SO I say: Stay away form fast attack. However, on squad of 5 raptors and a meltagun isn't too horrible.

2. Look at your HQ Choices. Now look for the entry, 'Daemon Prince'. Look again. Now take them. DP's are simply the best HQ choice in the 'dex- YOU WILL LOVE THEM! Take them with wings and warptime- works like a charm. Or, do a lash DP.

3. Unless you want to be fluffy; mixing and matching gods is best. For instance; Zerkers and Plague marines are your best specialist troop choices, and I would take them depending on your needs. However, khorne DP's are BAD. Kharn is better. if you want a DP, then Nurgle is good. But if you want a special character, Typhus is just bad. Tzeentch termies are also good. So don't stick to one god.

4. Termies for Chaos are good in a combi-weapon/power weapon loadout. Fists can be good too, as are claws. Experiment to find out hwat works best for you, and mixing/ matching weapons are great.

Hope this helps!

Firstly, one of the things to note is that I'm not looking for that one cookie cutter DP+oblits list that everyone claims is the only one chaos can be competitive with. I'm WAY too avant-guarde for that.

What I'm looking for is mathematically sound, not popular. In fact, mathematically sound and UNpopular would be preferable. Chaos actually has a good codex, and I'd care to prove it.

I'm a little confused about the comment regarding wargear being all over the map, though.

See, what I mena by the DP's is that you need to experiment a bit. Reach outside your comfort zone. You can use 'cookie cutter' units, but give them different ingredients. For instance, one might try a tzeench DP with wings, Bolt of change and gift of chaos, or something altogether different, like takeing Huron.

Nurgle DPs are really fun to play and are quite fluffy to boot. Competitive or not, slumping a T6 Eternal MC at your opponent is always fun. Wings are almost manditory for them though, as footslogging the entire way with no cover save and a paultry 5+ invul means that you'd be staring down every single lascannon in your opponent's army.

I also suggested Havocs because There use to be a set called Death Guard Havocs, which again makes them fluffy (and, in a rare case, somewhat competitive). Plus, Havocs are pretty underrated given that everyone picks either a pred, vindi or oblit over them. I personally like them, because they just dish out so much punishment and can take so much as well due to a 4+ cover save they will most certainly get, as well as T5 for MoN. However more PM units are always nice. Havocs with Autocannon spam might help with DE Raider spam, given that they dish out 2 shots per autocannon and pens on a 4+. It also helps neutralize the DE's own FnP, which can really turn the tide of battle to your favour.

I didnt know you had a specific purpose in mind for Gift. If so it should stay. If you do ever face MEQ Deathstar units though you can always switch it out for Wind with no problems. As for the Sorceror running with normal PMs, the PM, even without a champ, should do fine. Believe it or not I actually outnumbered a Eldar Guardian army once with PMs (the guy took too much flashy stuff, ending up with many more vehicles than me, but consequently lost almost all of it to meltagun fire) and PMs are just so hard to put down. Ironically, they compliment Kharn very well, as they're a good wound sponge for the Khorne champion until he gets into combat, where the PMs can just leave the fighting to Kharn and go shoot up something else.

If your not going for a themed force, then adding some berserkers is a good choice. Each Berserker, on the charge, is basically a naked SM captain from 4th edition in terms of attacks he dishes out. but for 1/3 of the points. They also have +1 strength. They're slower than Raptors, but even just 4 or 3 making it into combat will seriously mess up someone's day.

Actually, I'm not yet a chaos, player, so I don't have a comfort zone. I'm not interested in demon princes mostly because demon princes can't take gifts of chaos.

... although a secondary reading of the demon prince entry shows me they can. I suppose what I was looking for in sorcerers was more the ability to hide them in a squad.

with DP's being MCs, and with not much else to shoot at, it strikes me that they might have a tendency to die quickly...

Imo, CSM in five man units are absolutely worthless. They're about half as survivable as plague marines, and can't take a second melta. FNP make plague marines last the entire game, while regular dudes might last.. Three turns...

The raptor list is silly. They'll get shot to pieces. No question about it. Unless you deep strike them, which is silly when you have so Many models.

I vote for the terminator list.

I suppose the raptor list was more of a carry-over from a previous list idea I had of 4x 10-man CSM squads with fist, 2x melta, IoCG, 2 winged sorcerers with gifts, and 2 raptor squads with fists and melta. In that scenario, I had enough power armor on the field to saturate the raptors, but I suppose not now.

Sorcerors are better in your case then. If you do continue with Chaos then I'd expect to see a masterfully converted sorc!

Yeah, that would work. Those foot units would have been a great distraction. They're just too small now, and would probably be ignored, then shot off after the raptors got overwhelmed.

I do like the terminator list though. It packs a nice punch

I like the terminator list as well. My problem, though, is that my local meta is all fast all the time. There is a heavy population of Eldar, Blood Angel, and Dark Eldar players. Practically every army except for my guard one has a skimmer, fast vehicles, or a couple of things with jump packs/wings.

I love the raw killing power of the terminators, but I'm somewhat reluctant to start ANOTHER army that spends most of its time slowly chasing down 24" moving units. With my guard army, at least I have such a commanding field presence that it's difficult to move anywhere that isn't in melta threat range after turn 3, but with a space marine army, much less a nurgle army...

Well then.. It seems like the answer to your meta would be havocs/ obliterators/dreadnoughts. For fast armies, the key is killing them before they get close, and ML havocs really work well for this (more than oblits, imo). Dreadnoughts can work too ( lascannon plus ML is nice). Oblits have lascannons and plasma cannons, which can perform a variety of duties.

It's up to you though. CSM can take all kinds of dakka.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Well then.. It seems like the answer to your meta would be havocs/ obliterators/dreadnoughts.

I can see the havocs, but oblits and dreads?

Samus_aran115 wrote:For fast armies, the key is killing them before they get close

Woah, you and I have completely opposite philosophies about this.

I've found that the problem with fast armies isn't that you can't possibly kill them all before they get to your lines (because you can't), but rather that you can't kill them enough before they run away and shoot your from afar.

Havocs with Autos seems to be your best bet. Dont go with the Dread though, a dedicated dread that shoots a Lascannon and ML is good for taking out heavy tanks fast, but if it frenzies it will blow the crap out of your own PMs, and unlike your DE and Guard foes, he will do it quite efficiently. I have one such Dread for my own PMs, but I only converted him because he was already too molten to use in my normal SM army. Too much of a liability.

EDIT: Just remembered that Termies can take Autocannons. Maybe try some MSU Nurgle Termies with Reaper Autos. TL means that both shots will hit their mark, and it will shred Raiders. Plus, it's not like your afraid of people trying to tarpit you.

I suppose my only problem is that only one member of the termie squad can have an autocannon. Taking 3 groups of 6 instead of 2 groups of 8 is an interesting idea, though.

As for the other serious contender, here, namely bikes, I've had a second go at it...

7 plague marines, fist, 2x melta, rhino
-256

7 plague marines, fist, 2x melta, rhino
-256

Sorcerer, gifts, bike
- 160

Sorcerer, gifts, bike
- 160

7 bikers, 1x melta, fist, MoN
-346

7 bikers, 1x melta, fist, MoN
-346

Of course, this brings 30 models to a 1500 point game, which, given that I bring over FOUR TIMES that in guardsmen, sounds insane to me. I'll have to do the math on it, though...

Do you need two Sorcs in a 1500 point game? 2 characters seems a bit excessive to me, but that's just my playstyle.

Also, I went into my box and dug out some more models for conversion into Nurgle units because of you I'm going down the Terminator route since I dont own any suitable bikers for conversion.

Ailaros wrote:Firstly, one of the things to note is that I'm not looking for that one cookie cutter DP+oblits list that everyone claims is the only one chaos can be competitive with. I'm WAY too avant-guarde for that.

What I'm looking for is mathematically sound, not popular. In fact, mathematically sound and UNpopular would be preferable. Chaos actually has a good codex, and I'd care to prove it.

I'm a little confused about the comment regarding wargear being all over the map, though.

The lists you posted told me right away that you were looking for soemthing outside of the cookie cutter norm! And in the Chaos world you are in luck because the large majority of the codex is viable if fielded properly.

The first step to a mathematically sound army is fielding proepr size units depending on what they are.

ie plague marines 7-8, bezerkers 9-10, reg marines 10, termies 3-6, raptors 5-10, lesser demons 13-17 ect ect (could go on all day with the math lol)

Then comes matching your wargear to what you are planning on doing. I find the more you try and *cover all the bases* with a chaos army the more it falls apart.
Pick a role and suit your wargear to match.

All of the ideas you posted are viable, but the main thing you need to do for competetive play is solidify your troops before branching out to EL, FA and HS

@ 1500pts you should have 3-4 troop sound troop choices. As I stated before *sound* is relative to which troop type and what war gear they are loaded out with.

Hope that clarify's what I was trying to say and helps you out some. The most helpful thing I did on here was read the CSM tactica, all of it.

Different people have diff ideas, and I don;t know about you but I like new ideas good or bad

*edit*

I just about forgot! The other thing I meant to mention was about the Sorcs!

When running sorcs or lords it is suuuuuper important to attach them to a squad. If left out by themselves, even with a MON or a bike to make them tougher neither will stop them from being 1 shotted by a meltagun or a lascannon. A sacraficial troop on the other hand will

i agree with you ailros i really like option C. it would be the funnest to play. the sorcererwith gift would be great, spawns running all over the place.

logg_frogg wrote: And in the Chaos world you are in luck because the large majority of the codex is viable if fielded properly.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

There are lots of whiners to most codecies. Proving them wrong would bring a special degree of joy.

logg_frogg wrote:All of the ideas you posted are viable, but the main thing you need to do for competetive play is solidify your troops before branching out to EL, FA and HS

Oh, I know, I know. I am big into core units (look no further than my guard army), and definitely see a strong core as a very good thing. This is going to sound stupid, but I'm looking to branch out from that. Normally, I consider toy-heavy lists a sure way to a quick defeat. I've never actually tested this, though.

logg_frogg wrote:The first step to a mathematically sound army is fielding proepr size units depending on what they are.

Indeed.

I actually just ran the math of nurgle bikes against your standard 3-PIS power blob, with a slight bias towards the blob:

31-dude power blob v. 8 nurgle bikers, sorcerer with gifts.

bikers charge.

7 bikers kill 4, fist kills 1.5, sorcerer kills 2

21 bayonets kill .6, 9 power weapon attacks kill 1

5 bikers kill 3 guardsmen, fist kills 1, Sorcerer kills 1.5, gifts fails to kill the commissar

14 bayonets kill .3 bikers, 9 power weapon attacks kills .7

4 bikers kill 2 guardsmen, fist kills 1, Sorcerer kills 1.5, gifts fails to kill the commissar.

10 bayonets kills .5 bikers, 9 power weapon attacks kills .7

3 bikers kill 2 guardsmen, fist kills 1, Sorcerer kills 1.5, gifts kills the commissar. On Ld4, guardsmen very likely break and run.

The end result? The 31-dude blob is wiped out after 2 game turns, with half the biker squad ready to go on their own turn.

So I guess nurgle bikes aren't as bad as their low model count implies. I'll have to consider this option more...

CSM bikers in general are WAY overcosted compared to their SM counterparts, which are 25 points a piece. You're effectively paying 7 points for an extra close combat weapon, while loosing the ATSKNF and Combat Tactics rule. However they're all the CSM have, but you really are paying so much more points for literally no reason (at min squad, a SM player basically gets 9 points of free wargear and get 3 bikers, one of which is a sarge, while the CSM just get 3 normal bikers). However that's not to say CSM bikers arn't good, the marks make them insane (although the Nurgle mark really benefits from being in large squads, as 38 points per T6 biker is easier to swallow than almost 50 points per biker).

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:CSM bikers in general are WAY overcosted compared to their SM counterparts, which are 25 points a piece... However that's not to say CSM bikers arn't good, the marks make them insane

Right. I'm actually brutally uninterested with how a particular unit compares with a similar unit in a different codex.

Yes, marine bikes are cheaper, and they're scoring. No, regular marine bikes don't get to be supported by plague marines.

If you want to run a Nurgle themed list without DPs, then how about something like...

HQ:

Sorc w/ gift: 130
Sorc w/ gift: 130

Heavy:

7x Havocs, 4x Autocannons: 185
7x Havocs, 4x Autocannons: 185

Troops:

5x Plague Marines, 2x Meltaguns in a Rhino: 170
5x Plague Marines, 2x Meltaguns in a Rhino: 170
5x Plague Marines, 2x Meltaguns in a Rhino: 170

Elites:

5x Terminators, 3x Combimeltas, 1x Chainfist: 180
5x Terminators, 3x Combimeltas, 1x Chainfist: 180



Competitively speaking, I don't think that MoN is going to be worth it on any of the units other than the PMs. The Sorcerors are either eating a power fist or doing fine, the Terminators have Terminator armor and most things that eat 2+ also eat T4(5), and the Havocs are mostly going to be taking antitank fire. They've got ablative wounds for everything else.

It incorporates 2 Terminator squads, Havocs which aren't part of the cookie cutter lists, your sorcerors, and Plague Marines.

To be honest, not to be completely unhelpful, but I completely disagree with just about everything in that list.

I'm not particularly concerned with agreement or disagreement. I don't in any way consider myself a chaos master, having never played a chaos army.

What I am most interested is why you feel the way you do.

i have just started my ig army Ailaros and before that i played death guard. i also have a real problem with the aforementioned list. it would take too much time for me to post up why, plus im more eloquent in person rather than online but look at this site and it should give you all you need to know;

www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?s=e16df5a60a5b7060aa97aea851cb81d0&showforum=101




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specifically;
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=156101

So, I read that article, but it seems kind of old and inaccurate. The claim that 5th ed made vehicles more durable, that 5th ed games can't be won by attrition, and CSM must be mech, along with some codex errors, like that gifts REQUIRES you to put down a spawn mode sort of casts a shadow over the piece.

Furthermore, the article doesn't have anything to say about why you would have a problem with any of the above lists.

Ailaros wrote:So, I read that article, but it seems kind of old and inaccurate. The claim that 5th ed made vehicles more durable, that 5th ed games can't be won by attrition, and CSM must be mech, along with some codex errors, like that gifts REQUIRES you to put down a spawn mode sort of casts a shadow over the piece.

Furthermore, the article doesn't have anything to say about why you would have a problem with any of the above lists.

Are you making an army because you want it to be competitive or just for giggles?



More concretely: Two Rhinos are going to get smoked on T1, so count on your Plague Marines footslogging. Then you've got 4 footslogging squads that can't afford to take casualties. You're going to get manhandled by anyone who knows what they're doing, or just simply avoided. Any mech player is going to shoot those two Rhinos on T1 and then just stay away from you. The list has zero long-range AT.

As for the biker lists, the bikes don't have the offensive output to be threatening to anything but foot guard. Any mech army is going to paste them. Any army with dedicated assault units (TH/SS Terminators, Nid's MCs, etc.) are going to eat though them. Even Tactical Marines with a Fist on the sgt are going to win the Attrition by Numbers game. Most things that you use for shooting up T5 things are going to kill T6 things just as well. Special Weapons win 40k, not basic weapons, generally speaking. They don't have the numbers or AV going for them to withstand that.

NuggzTheNinja wrote: The list has zero long-range AT.

That hasn't stopped me before, why should it stop me with CSM?

I do agree, though, that the rhinos seem less than ideal. The reason they're there primarily stems from the fact that I don't think 2 more plague marines are going to do as much for the same price.

Plus, they draw lascannon fire away from the plague marines and bikes or terminators.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:As for the biker lists, the bikes don't have the offensive output to be threatening to anything but foot guard.

2x melta, a S8 powerfist, free krak grenades, and a force weapon/gifts has no offensive output?

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Any mech army is going to paste them. Any army with dedicated assault units (TH/SS Terminators, Nid's MCs, etc.) are going to eat though them. Even Tactical Marines with a Fist on the sgt are going to win the Attrition by Numbers game. Most things that you use for shooting up T5 things are going to kill T6 things just as well. Special Weapons win 40k, not basic weapons, generally speaking. They don't have the numbers or AV going for them to withstand that.

Care to back that up with some math?

being able to move 24" with a 3++ on a bunch of T6 models hardly sounds like it's lining up for a pasting.

Yes, if small arms literally didn't matter, I could see a unit type that is good against small arms fire being worthless. Underestimating basic attacks, however is a grievous mistake in my book.

I stand by a Rhino Rush. Even if it's only an extra 6 inch for one movement phase, it's well worth it. PM's T5 and FnP means that even if the rhino explodes, the odds of them suffering a wound is almost nonexistant.

As for the dedicated assault unit math, sure man. Just trying to help out.


Assuming they make it across the table...

So 7 Nurgle Bikers, 1 with a fist, rolls up on...say...a squad of Plasma Vets in a Chimera:

The 1 melta gun shoots. Hopefully you hit. Hopefully you pen. Hopefully you wreck it. Let's assume it's wrecked and you're out of assault range...

6 vets fire Plasma guns. 4 hit, 2-3 wound, 2-3 dead and very expensive bikers.

The bikers go after a Land Raider w/ TH/SS Terminators in it...

Say the shot wrecks or explodes the Raider. You charge them. That's 6x3=18 attacks. 9 hit, 4.5 wound. ~1 dead Terminator. 8 attacks back, 4 hit, 3.3333 wound. Fister swings, 3A, 1.5 hit, say another deaed TH/SS Terminator. They lost a 250 pt Raider and 80 points worth of guys. You lost at least 3 Bikers. Round two, 3x2=6 attacks, 3 hit, 1.5 wound, 25% chance of a dead Terminator. Terminators swing, 8 attacks, another 3.33333 dead bikers, then the fist swings and kills another Terminator. End result, 3 turns of combat this squad is toast.

TWolf cav is going to be ugly. Wolf Claws rerolling failed rolls to wound (wounding on 5's with rerolls, meh...), thunder hammers, etc.


The reality of Mech armies is that you're going to roll up on them, wreck their transport, then they're going to get out and light you up with something that doesn't care all that much about T(4)6. If you want to try the army, play it against other competitive builds in your local meta. Against H2H stuff they really don't stand a chance. People don't kill bikers by shooting them but rather by assaulting them. What's in that unit that's really a threat to any competitive build out there...a single meltagun? A fist? Any competent opponent is going to get you get close, nuke a transport, and then hose you brutally.


ETA: I'd love to see you stomp face with the list you posted, I just don't see it happening. If you want to prove me wrong though, I've got 3 bikers, 2 with meltaguns well-built and unpainted that I'd let go on the swap shop cheap enough.

Why would you charge TH/SS terminators? they have no guns or fleet. After blowing the land raider you just zip around them and shooting them. The bolters should be firing as relentless, so the bikers dont need to get within 23 inches of the termies.

Sure, but if you look at THE hard counters and units which cost more that are specialized at what they do, ANY unit is going to look bad. I should note, though, that the bikers v. mech guard is actually better than let on. After all, once the bikers multi-assault with krak grenades and eat a round of plasma, they then get to multi-assault the vets in side. Plus, you forgot about gifts (and in some cases, the fists).

I'm not seeing much doom and gloom, despite the most earnest of efforts to present it, honestly.

Something I've noticed about people criticizing those wanting to try things that are not a netlist (Or in the TCG world, netdecking. It's where you take a decklist and copy it card by card just because it won a tournament) is that they always give the pessimistic point of view.

How do we know that these units are as bad as you claim? We really don't because people are too scared to not netlist.

I say, go with your ideal of proving the CSM codex to be better outside of a PM/Oblit/DP list. This is a game based more on the tactician more than the units being fielded.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Why would you charge TH/SS terminators? they have no guns or fleet. After blowing the land raider you just zip around them and shooting them. The bolters should be firing as relentless, so the bikers dont need to get within 23 inches of the termies.

They're within 6" of the Raider at the time it goes, it's either charge or get charged. But still, even in this unfortunate case your bikers are unhorsing and mauling 450 points of Land Raider and terminators. Add the IC's power weapon attacks in and they might even win.

If they dont manage to kill it, they still blow up their own points worth in the land raider and the amount of termies they downed, which is still a net gain. And as Ailaros pointed out you're comparing the hard counters. You wouldnt send a Trygon deepstriking in to fight a bunch of Wraithguard, you'd shoot the crap out of them with termagaunts and swarm them.

AresX8 wrote: they always give the pessimistic point of view.

I mean, the pessimistic view isn't useless here. It's good to know the worst case scenario. For example, knowing that the worst case scenario is only going to be SO bad is useful information.

Raxmei wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Why would you charge TH/SS terminators? they have no guns or fleet. After blowing the land raider you just zip around them and shooting them. The bolters should be firing as relentless, so the bikers dont need to get within 23 inches of the termies.

They're within 6" of the Raider at the time it goes, it's either charge or get charged. But still, even in this unfortunate case your bikers are unhorsing and mauling 450 points of Land Raider and terminators. Add the IC's power weapon attacks in and they might even win.

And the gifts. My god, why is everyone ignoring the fact that there will be gifts of chaos being thrown around?

With two sorcerers against T4 models, the odds are pretty good that something gets blown up into a spawn in any given turn.

Range and timing on the gift of chaos. In the case I was discussing you wouldn't get the opportunity to use Gift of Chaos until the turn after taking out the transport. By that point you've either already been through two assault phases or given the enemy a chance do something about it. If the other guy ends his turn with nobody less than 6" away from the sorceror there won't be any valid targets in your turn.

Wait, so you're saying that I'd blow up a land raider, and the THSS termies would pile out over 6" away from my sorcerer and then NOT charge the bikes on their turn?

Your example though permits the squad to survive to turn 3. A single Gifted Terminator would severely change the outcome, especially since the Sorc still has his power weapon.

However this would be one instance where I make an argument for Winds, as it has pretty much the same success rate as Gift on a per-terminator basis, while possessing the ability to whack all five at once. It's the same point cost, but much more in terms of a return. Given that the Sorc is a IC, he can disengage from the squad prior to shooting, but remain close enough to Wind them. Alternatively the Sorc can sacrifice himself to keep the bikers going, or vice versa and have the sorc stand ready to deliver a Winds when combat ends. Either way, this unit can do so much more to a TH/SS terminator squad with a land Raider than your giving credit for.

Especially against low-model-count units. Turning 1 slugga boy out of 30 isn't much of a thing. Picking Grimnar out of a 5-man termie squad, or spawning a TWC, on the other hand, causes a much harsher % of casualties per model killed.

The Force Weapon would come in really handy for killing off TWCs, as does Wind (sorry for keep bringing it up, but I love that psychic power).

back to that web site that i posted on; i think that while they do seem a little dated there are some very good points made (did you read the next 5 pages for the updates?)

i posted it because i think for death guard armies this page has all of what you need/want to know about their list building. have a look around the army lists which are being bounced around plus the updated tatica's.

im sure your list would win games but i dont think it will be as much fun or as good as a more synchronised list.

furthermore, id like to suggest a khorn army. you just dont see them but damn they could be fun...

Indeed. Kharn and Khorne Berserkers are the other half of the "good" units in the Chaos codex and running them up can be alot of fun. Problem is they lack a good delivery system since they're assault oriented troops.

PMs are just fun because your opponent will consistently call bs on you for being so damn survivable.

Ailaros wrote:Wait, so you're saying that I'd blow up a land raider, and the THSS termies would pile out over 6" away from my sorcerer and then NOT charge the bikes on their turn?

I neglected to mention I was switching from speaking about a specific case to speaking in general. In that specific case you've already weathered an assault phase or two before the power comes up, in general the enemy has time to stop you. To elaborate on what I suppose would happen in the terminators case, I'm not a marine player myself but I suppose I'd pile out over 6" away if possible to deny you the charge and then assault on my turn. If the sorceror makes base contact I allocate attacks to take him out, if not I win combat handily and you have a good chance to break and fall back out of range.

how different do you want your army from IG Ailaros? i ask this because the survivability of the PM's are very similar to the IG blob. that is part of the reason of why blob guard attracted me. do you mind that they are similar in purpose (high durability good close range guys)?


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furthermore the game mechanics for both of these armies are almost interchangeable.

Ailaros wrote:So, I read that article, but it seems kind of old and inaccurate. The claim that 5th ed made vehicles more durable, that 5th ed games can't be won by attrition, and CSM must be mech, along with some codex errors, like that gifts REQUIRES you to put down a spawn mode sort of casts a shadow over the piece.

Furthermore, the article doesn't have anything to say about why you would have a problem with any of the above lists.

everything must be taken wiht a grain of salt . did you read all of the available articles or just the one marked 5th?

I'm not trying to say they are gospel, i'm just saying they filled me full of ideas that have worked for me!

In the last 20 games I have played I have made an effort to play something different every time and have found that with the right balance in your units and a play style that matches your army it's hard to go wrong as long as you are fielding chaos spawn

I made an intersting list up last night and will post it here when I get home from work I know the framework but I don;t want to screw it up lol

Hey Ailaros,

Nice to see you make the switch to the Dark Powers. I'm sure you love the armybuildingpotential inherent to Chaos. Your IG army has nice, subtle conversions, a cool theme and a great paint job. Im looking forward to seeing your Chaos army :-)

You say you're looking for 'bombastic and flashy' and an 'out of the box' kind of list. For me that would mean choosing more variety in the unitselection.

You want to choose between either raptors, bikers or terminators. Is there a reason you don't combine two or more of these units? I think there is good synergy between Bikers and Terminators for instance. The latter using the Icon in the first unit to deepstrike from/flank overload, etc.

I've played Black Legion for a good while (used a Chaoszilla list of sorts). I've found that especially Greater Daemons and Dreadnoughts are easily overlooked in the standard build while they served me outstandingly.

My advice:

Take some of everything to make for the most fun. Take another look at Chosen, Greater Daemons, Dreadnoughts and Lesser Daemons and see if you can find a mix of CSM and Plaguemarines, Terminators and Bikers...

I dont have a codex handy, so can't check for points, but something like this:

Sorcerer
Greater Daemon
Terminators
Dreadnought
CSM, Rhino
Plaguemarines, Rhino
Lesser Daemons
Nurgle Bikers

could be crammed into 1500 points and would be great fun to play with.

Just my € 0,02. Interested to see what you end up with.

Oh and to answer your question, which of the Chaos lists you mention is preferable? I'd take the Biker list. But Im a sucker for mobilty and the option of turboboostmoves.

Cilithan

I said I would Post up a list tonight so here it is:

HQ

Chaos Lord MoK , PP, DW, MB 160pts

Chaos Sorc MoN, PP, Fam, Gift, Warp, PI 205pts

Troop

CSMx9 Melta, AC /w pp, pw, mb, rhino /w CM 240pts

CSMx9 Melta, AC /w pp, pw, mb, rhino /w CM 240pts

CSMx10, 2x Melta Rhino /w CM 215pts

Elite

Term X5, MoK, 3 /w pairs of LC, 2 /w CF, CM 220pts

Term X5, MoK, 3 /w pairs of LC, 2 /w CF, CM 220pts


1500 on the dot.

Reading this thread made me think of this, am going to try it when I get home in a week lol!

It's going to be diff playing with no HS but I think this list can take it!

*let the flames begin* lol

Right, this actually looks like the khrone terminator version of what I'm thinking of.

Basically, take a 2x2 matrix. One of the sides has "bikes" and "terminators" and the other axis has "khorne" and "nurgle".

I'm starting to consider possibly adding tzeench (TWO gifts a turn, you say?) but I don't know how that would work.

Or, to put the matrix into graphic form...



Okay, I just realised all my points values aren't quite there. You get what I mean, though.





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So, I just ran some numbers for the bikes and came up with a few interesting things.

So, assuming I drop some melta guns in favor of meltabombs to give khorne an extra bike per squad...

Against a 31 man power blob, the khorne bikes and the Tzeench bikes both win with 5 bikes (4 without the extra khorne bike), while the nurgle ends with 4. Nurgle and tzeench take longer, but are more likely to end on their opponent's turn

Against an assault terminator squad (3 THSS, 2 LCs), the end result is the bikes winning with 4 left over (well, 4.5 for tzeench, depending on how invul saves go).

Against a 10-man tac squad, sergeant with a fist, they all do identical (though MoT once again has a slight edge due to the invul save.

The interesting thing to note with these three common scenarios is that MoT bikers are actually the best bikers. 5++ may not sound like much, but against the flurry of power attacks, it actually does give them an edge. MoK and MoN both come in at roughly the same.

In this case, though, I think MoK slightly wins out over MoN because of the list as a whole. Plague marines may be good, but I can simply afford more berzerkers than plague marines. In the end, they wind up evening out. While MoT may have the best bikes, I can afford only half as many. Yeah, they weed out half the power attacks, but they only have half as many models. Bringing only 10 troops models to 1500 just seems too low, even for my crazy thought experiment.

Another thing that I've gotten, that I think someone was trying to tell me earlier, has to do with gifts. I was underestimating the brutal destruction power of CSM before. JUST BY THEMSELVES, these big bike squads are able to trash terminator squads and huge power blobs alike. Frankly, doing the calculations, whatever I'm attacking simply doesn't last long enough for me to have time to gifts something.

If I give the sorcerer a mark, to give it another ability, then the sorcerer just becomes RUDELY expensive for a single model. The only real exception I'm looking at is Nurgle's rot, but I'm not yet convinced.

If adding a sorcerer really isn't adding much, perhaps, in a bike list, I could just replace the sorcerer with a lord on a bike with a pair of lightning claws and a meltabomb (if points allowed, one of them would have a demon weapon, perhaps).

It's interesting to see some of the number crunching attached to these units!
It's actually sometihing I have also started to do quite often, mostly to test out the best way to micromanage during a battle lol.

Yes, Gift is touch and go. It's either not effective or devistating. You can't rely on it but it can turn the tide severely. If you go in knowing that it can work to your advantage.

I have the same comment about all of your lists really with the exception of the nurgle list. I feel that you should shift points out of elites/fa and move them to your troops. Things like having 6 termies in a squad instead of 8 and having 3-5 more troops to play with between your other squads. I would also think about trying to include a 3rd tier to your 2 tier army when possible. This will allow you to reinforce or spread out whn you need it. Does the sme job but is a little more versatile. I hope that made sense I tend to ramle nonsensically soemtimes!

I do Like seeing lords attached to FA units tho! I recently played a game with a lord attached to a squad of raptors and it was pretty devistating to my opponent!

You might want to check the meltabombs on your terminator armored characters, I'm pretty sure they lose that option when they suit up.

61 replies in one day huh. I guess everyone just really wants to help you out with this.

I've got some chaos marines myself and like I guess many, I was really interested in a lot of the units considered subpar - here and elsewhere. People seem to be really (and generally consistently) specific about the csm units and which ones are worth taking, but I've been trying out all sorts of things so I thought I'd give a word on these.

Raptors:
So, the thing with these guys, usually, is they are expensive "compared to assault marines". Or even BA assault marines. Personally I think this is a pretty stupid argument, not only because they can take two special weapons at base squad size and marks of chaos, but because even if they couldn't it doesn't really make them bad, or even worse than assault marines. They cost more yeah, and they don't regroup automatically, but here's the thing: marines with jump packs are dangerous.
They have an 18" assault range and marine stats, with the ability to fly over terrain. This can actually be pretty huge, especially when you're up against sloggers, where these guys have really proved their worth to me. When something is moving at foot speed and can't fight well in assault, raptors are obviously great to have around. Many units can smash up some termagants, but not every unit can catch them. As fast as raptors. To assault as far as these guys, any other chaos marine would have to be either in a land raider or on a bike. These still have to deal with terrain, and the land raider probably has more important things to do.
The way I've run raptors is in 5man squads with either 2 flamers or 2 meltas. Cheap, fast, pretty expendable and deadly to weaker units. Two squads for around 200pts and a pair of slots that no-one uses.

Bikers:
As with raptors, bikes suffer from loyalist marines having cheaper versions. They're not a whole lot cheaper, but they do have a few advantages. ATSKNF is pretty nice to have on bikers, for instance, since they're generally easy to force tests on and/or get under 50% models, and they can zoom off the board fast.
I've never actually used these guys, but I can think of a lot of things to use them for. Like raptors, they're a fast melta platform if you need one. In one turn, they're no faster than a squad of CSM in a rhino, but in two turns, the difference is 12" and 3+ cover. Decent stuff. Unlike raptors, they're relentless, so can fire plasma before assaulting - that's kind of worth noting. Some other things chaos bikers can do:

A: take mark of nurgle and get t6
B: turboboost 24" and deepstrike terminators/daemons (a personal favourite) off of an icon.
C: take two meltas, turboboost around and draw obscene amounts of fire for 120pts

The problem with A is that while the squad will be really resilient to marines in melee, it's going to need a few more bodies, and starts to get pricy for a unit that still doesn't have an inv. save or more than one power weapon.
B is cool, if you're into that sort of thing. No way to be guarantee reserves though, and even then you'll often want them near your other units anyway. As for C, probably everyone knows what it feels like when the enemy's cover save just won't budge. I'd say 120pts is a fair gamble on it being one of those days and they're hard to ignore either way.

Terminators:
Okay everyone knows how to use these. On the slogging/deepstriking type, marks pretty much come down to preference. Tzeentch gives an awesome 4+ inv that is sure to come in handy and nurgle guards against small arms and lasguns - hated enemies of terminators. Heard of people using slaanesh to lay fearsome beatings on meq. Khorne is probably the one mark I would personally never take, as they've got 2 attacks already and you can just make the chainfist a champion if that's the problem. Besides, I take these guys mainly to shoot combis. I'm sure I missed it while reading the previous pages, but have you considered combiweapons, Ailaros? They're totally great.

So, before I respond to other people's stuff, I just figured out that for the price of the 1k sons + sorc, I can get 10 MoT marines with a fist. I'd definitely be doing that instead.

logg_frogg wrote:I feel that you should shift points out of elites/fa and move them to your troops.

I know, I know. The problem is that I'm not certain how effective the fancy stuff will be with less points spent on them.

logg_frogg wrote:Things like having 6 termies in a squad instead of 8 and having 3-5 more troops to play with between your other squads.

Especially with the terminators. I've had a few games now against logan wing and death wing. So far I haven't lost a game to death wing, and I've tabled my logan wing opponent every time I've played him (except once, when he only had 1 model left on the board).

Terminators are actually somewhat shoddy, but I think I can make them work if I field enough of them with marks.

logg_frogg wrote: I would also think about trying to include a 3rd tier to your 2 tier army when possible.

I'd love to, but with what points?

MegaDave wrote:You might want to check the meltabombs on your terminator armored characters, I'm pretty sure they lose that option when they suit up.

Oh, thanks for the catch.

Almarine wrote:Raptors:

I agree with your assessment on raptors. The dilemma I have is this: If I take them in small squads, are they really going to do anything? If I take them in large squads are they going to be sufficiently survivable?

Almarine wrote:In one turn, they're no faster than a squad of CSM in a rhino, but in two turns, the difference is 12" and 3+ cover.

Actually, this is forgetting turbo-boosting. TBing turn 1, with 12"+ charge turn 2 gives them an 18" movement difference. That's over an extra turn of movement.

Almarine wrote: I'm sure I missed it while reading the previous pages, but have you considered combiweapons, Ailaros? They're totally great.

Not really. It's not that I don't see combi-weapons as bad, and I see how they synergize with deepstriking (although it's pretty risky when we're talking about melta here). The problem, once again, is points. In order to give everyone in an 8-termie squad a combi-weapon, I have to give the squad 4 less lightning claws. The latter has to be better than the former, right?

Almarine wrote:Khorne is probably the one mark I would personally never take

Oh, but the damage... THE DAMAGE.

5 MoK terminators with lightning claws (one of them a champ) puts down 25 lightning claw attacks on the charge. That's 15 dead guardsmen in one go. That's an entire 10-an tac squad.

Pure... carnage...

Ailaros wrote:

Almarine wrote:Raptors:

I agree with your assessment on raptors. The dilemma I have is this: If I take them in small squads, are they really going to do anything? If I take them in large squads are they going to be sufficiently survivable?

Well, 5 raptors are of course nothing when you match them up in against a dedicated assault unit. They would even struggle against a tac squad unless it's worn down first. But they have grenades and assault with around 15 attacks, and can take return hits pretty well as long as there aren't power weapons involved. Many might think that's one too many ifs, but fact is a lot of units aren't going to be able to handle five raptors well. This can obviously work to restrict an opponent's options, even if he's not stupid enough to split off lone squads or so.
Plus, they have special weapons. People take termicide, right? A raptor squad with meltas is less dependable in that role with one less shot on the first turn, and without the same chance to survive it, but if you feel like you won't need them to deepstrike you can just have them stalk about the field - with respectable mobility.

As for larger squads, I've never tried that. They just... I feel like the numbers don't give a great return in steps up the food chain. It would be interesting to see though, maybe 10 of them with slaanesh or khorne. Nurgle is going to be brutal too.

On the subject of raptors, you should know that the ones you buy have these stupid stands that make them harder to hide. If you want those, be aware that they can't always hide behind a rhino like regular assault marines. And if you're looking to convert then yeah, some people think it's an intended flaw.

Ailaros wrote:

Almarine wrote: I'm sure I missed it while reading the previous pages, but have you considered combiweapons, Ailaros? They're totally great.

Not really. It's not that I don't see combi-weapons as bad, and I see how they synergize with deepstriking (although it's pretty risky when we're talking about melta here). The problem, once again, is points. In order to give everyone in an 8-termie squad a combi-weapon, I have to give the squad 4 less lightning claws. The latter has to be better than the former, right?

Well... If it's 8 combiweapons vs. 4 single lightning claws, then I'd take the combis. These guys have power weapons standard, and they'll have the same amount of attacks just without the wound reroll. An 8-man unit will still put out 24 power attacks on the charge. The power attacks of a 50-man blob plus commissar, but ws4 s4 i4.

If they have dual LCs, you'll just have to weigh those attacks against the option of reserving and deep-striking these guys with enough firepower to scratch the paint of an achilles. It's a nice option to have, is all I'm saying.

Another list thingy, the Berserkers can't take meltaguns, only plasma pistols. However, you can give the rhino they ride in a combi melta. Most of the cult troops lack the special options that the normal marines have, but if you need a choppy dual melta squad the icon of khorne will work fine.

You could also think about taking Fabius and making your standard marines "enhanced warriors" for 3 pts. This makes them fearless and Str 5, and with the icon of khorne makes them almost like berserkers, minus the weapon skill and furious charge. You do have to watch out though, the "enhanced warriors" can cause you to take casualties before the game even starts, but at least you get the special/heavy weapons.

Ailaros wrote:
I know, I know. The problem is that I'm not certain how effective the fancy stuff will be with less points spent on them.

I find the problem is more that if you don't spend enough points on your basic units they get wiped too quickly, rendering them useless. Sometimes all it take is one more wound or PW attack to turn the tide. 15pts to save 160-200 seems like a good deal to me!

Ailaros wrote:
Terminators are actually somewhat shoddy, but I think I can make them work if I field enough of them with marks.

The trick with marks is to equip the troops with synergistic wargear. If you look at the termie squad I suggested what did I do?

I used pairs of lightning claws to add 3 more attacks to an already vicious squad that has 5 additional attacks from the MoK the majority of which get to re-roll failed wounds.
The chainfists are there to deal with multiple wounded charcs and vehicles.
I have had big success with them and they tear through infantry like mad! In a 2000pt game I would probably up the squad size.

Ailaros wrote:
I'd love to, but with what points?

They are hiding but they are there

Ailaros wrote:
I agree with your assessment on raptors. The dilemma I have is this: If I take them in small squads, are they really going to do anything? If I take them in large squads are they going to be sufficiently survivable?

Raptors don;t need to be survivable and even in larger squads tend to get wiped out. All they need to do is attack a specific target and try to kill their value in points before they die. The best way to make them last a little longer is to give them a MoN or MoT

Ailaros wrote:Not really. It's not that I don't see combi-weapons as bad, and I see how they synergize with deepstriking (although it's pretty risky when we're talking about melta here). The problem, once again, is points. In order to give everyone in an 8-termie squad a combi-weapon, I have to give the squad 4 less lightning claws. The latter has to be better than the former, right?

Combi weapons are cheap and well worth it in the long run. Whats the math on running 7 /w combi instead of 8 w/o?

Almarine wrote:Khorne is probably the one mark I would personally never take

Oh, but the damage... THE DAMAGE.

I find bikes work best in the *B* scenario mentioned above. They go fast and are very durable so they will stick around until reserves roll in. The biggest problem I have found with them is they suck the big one in CC. they don't die but they do essentially nothing as they don't have any way to get bonus attacks. I like running multiple squads of 3 and using them to drop daemons wherever I need em!


This has turned into quite the good discussion!

Almarine wrote:Any specific reason why the lords have only one claw each, or just points?

They have pairs, it's just not clearly marked.

Almarine wrote: What do you say to a nurgle bike lord with daemon weapon? Sexiest daemon weapon + sexiest nurgle biker toughness.

I did consider a manreaper on both bike and wing. The problem is that lightning claws do as much damage against most targets, while not doing as much against weaker targets (with a chance that they do nothing at all

Okay, so I've just thought things through a bit, and it doesn't make sense to take the MoN raptors. I gain the less damage of the bikes and the slower speed of the raptors, while only gaining a slight edge against small arms fire.

My "which is better"? is now down to these three choices...


A.)

Lord, MoK, bike, lightning claws, meltabombs
Lord, MoK, bike, lightning claws

Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist, meltabombs
- Rhino
Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist, meltabombs
- Rhino

Chaos Bikers (8), MoK, champion with power fist, meltabombs
Chaos Bikers (8), MoK, champion with power fist, meltabombs


B.)

Lord, MoK, wings, lightning claws, meltabombs
Lord, MoK, wings, lightning claws, meltabombs

Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist, meltabombs
- Rhino
Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist, meltabombs
- Rhino

Chaos Raptors (13), MoK, meltagun, champion with power fist, meltabombs
Chaos Raptors (13), MoK, meltagun, champion with power fist, meltabombs


C.)

Lord, MoK, wings, lightning claws, meltabombs
Lord, MoK, wings, lightning claws , meltabombs

Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist
Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist
Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist

Chaos Raptors (10), MoK, meltagun, champion with power fist
Chaos Raptors (10), MoK, meltagun, champion with power fist

So, A is the bike list. I like it because its big and flashy. The rhinos synergize with the bikes, and the bikes are going to be in someone's face right away. Scary and straightforward. B is the raptor list. The rhinos hopefully hold off things like lascannons and misisle launchers for a turn while I move in. 13 raptors and a lord will then BEAT FACE with whatever they come across. List C is a more conventional list. Footsloggers synergize with raptors for target saturation. The only nagging problem I have is that the troops will be slower than the support units. It also has less of the pizzas and in your face brutality.

So, what do you think?

Any specific reason why the lords have only one claw each, or just points? Because with the extra attack from a second claw, you can take off MoK for a net cost decrease of 5pts, with the same total attacks.

Anyway, I figure I've given enough sensible advice for one thread. What do you say to a nurgle bike lord with daemon weapon? Sexiest daemon weapon + sexiest nurgle biker toughness.

Almarine wrote:Any specific reason why the lords have only one claw each, or just points?

They have pairs, it's just not clearly marked.

Almarine wrote: What do you say to a nurgle bike lord with daemon weapon? Sexiest daemon weapon + sexiest nurgle biker toughness.

I did consider a manreaper on both bike and wing. The problem is that lightning claws do as much damage against most targets, while not doing as much against weaker targets (with a chance that they do nothing at all

Okay, so I've just thought things through a bit, and it doesn't make sense to take the MoN raptors. I gain the less damage of the bikes and the slower speed of the raptors, while only gaining a slight edge against small arms fire.

My "which is better"? is now down to these three choices...


A.)

Lord, MoK, bike, lightning claws, meltabombs
Lord, MoK, bike, lightning claws

Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist, meltabombs
- Rhino
Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist, meltabombs
- Rhino

Chaos Bikers (8), MoK, champion with power fist, meltabombs
Chaos Bikers (8), MoK, champion with power fist, meltabombs


B.)

Lord, MoK, wings, lightning claws, meltabombs
Lord, MoK, wings, lightning claws, meltabombs

Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist, meltabombs
- Rhino
Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist, meltabombs
- Rhino

Chaos Raptors (13), MoK, meltagun, champion with power fist, meltabombs
Chaos Raptors (13), MoK, meltagun, champion with power fist, meltabombs


C.)

Lord, MoK, wings, lightning claws, meltabombs
Lord, MoK, wings, lightning claws , meltabombs

Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist
Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist
Khorne Berserkers (8), champion with power fist

Chaos Raptors (10), MoK, meltagun, champion with power fist
Chaos Raptors (10), MoK, meltagun, champion with power fist

So, A is the bike list. I like it because its big and flashy. The rhinos synergize with the bikes, and the bikes are going to be in someone's face right away. Scary and straightforward. B is the raptor list. The rhinos hopefully hold off things like lascannons and misisle launchers for a turn while I move in. 13 raptors and a lord will then BEAT FACE with whatever they come across. List C is a more conventional list. Footsloggers synergize with raptors for target saturation. The only nagging problem I have is that the troops will be slower than the support units. It also has less of the pizzazz and in your face brutality.

So, what do you think?

I like "A" the best, but no meltas on the biker squads? I know you have the bombs, but it might be nice to not have to kill EVERYTHING in close combat!

The main reason I like it though is that most people seem to think bikers are worse than raptors, and it'd be fun to see someone prove them wrong. Plus, with the way you model and paint, they should look awesome!

MegaDave wrote:I like "A" the best, but no meltas on the biker squads?

Yeah.

If I'm playing against multiple vehicles, I'd MUCH rather multi-assault with krak grenades and power fists and meltabombs than to possibly wreck one vehicle and let the others alone.

Plus, I have to ditch my close combat weapon to get a melta on a bike, which gives me one fewer attack.

MegaDave wrote: I know you have the bombs, but it might be nice to not have to kill EVERYTHING in close combat!

Wait, there's a shooting phase?

I wonder what it would- BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!!

MegaDave wrote:The main reason I like it though is that most people seem to think bikers are worse than raptors, and it'd be fun to see someone prove them wrong. Plus, with the way you model and paint, they should look awesome!

I'm not going to lie, I'm tempted by that logic. Bikes would also look way cooler than raptors. Unfortunately, they'll also take me much more time and expense to produce.

If I'm playing against multiple vehicles, I'd MUCH rather multi-assault with krak grenades and power fists and meltabombs than to possibly wreck one vehicle and let the others alone.

I hear ya loud and clear, but what about if you are running up to a land raider? If you want to get to the squad inside, the meltaguns help. Plus, if the thing moved, it's going to be hard for you to hit it in the first place, and then the squad inside will get the charge off next turn. They are also nice if you are running up againts a wraithlord or something, maybe put a wound or two on it before you have to rely on the powerfist to get you out.

Just some thoughts, and thing I've run into. Or rather, have run over me!

MegaDave wrote:I hear ya loud and clear, but what about if you are running up to a land raider?

Right, that's sort of the one thing that isn't well accounted for other than monoliths (which I'm just not even going to bother with. I'll force a phase-out if I must). The problem, really, is points. I can't quite see giving up 4 meltabombs for 2 meltaguns, but perhaps that is what must be done.

In the very least, I can rely on having local superiority over what comes OUT of the land raider. And, in extreme cases, perhaps I could surround-kill with bikes...

This list is definitely flatter in a way than other's I've played, as, you're right, it's revolved primarily around one thing. Not knowing what else to do, I think I'll just have to come up with workarounds. After all, you know what they say...

Too bad you can't put Kharn on a bike.

Well it should be interesting either way. And really, you're fast enough to run away from land raiders, so maybe it won't be that big of an issue.

Oh and I've got a lot of random chaos stuff laying around, if you need help with some models. I don't live that far from you, could get a game in and make a trade if needed.

Another thing to think about here too.

Khorne Bezerkers have *furious charge* giving them +1 str/+1 Ini on the charge.

Equiping the champ with a PF means you are making his attacks go at initiative 1 instead of 5. Can make a big diff when fighting marines as he should kill before they get to swing

logg_frogg wrote:Another thing to think about here too.

Khorne Bezerkers have *furious charge* giving them +1 str/+1 Ini on the charge.

Equiping the champ with a PF means you are making his attacks go at initiative 1 instead of 5. Can make a big diff when fighting marines as he should kill before they get to swing

The rest of the unit is still i5 though and crazy enough to put down a fair number of marines on their own, if their unit arrives mostly intact. Skull champion is also perhaps the game's best wielder of a (hidden) power fist, with his base 3 attacks and furious s9 assault.

But yeah it's an old debate.

Right. I'm already bringing a lot of anti-infantry stuff. The S9 powerfists are there so that I'm not COMPLETELY boned against vehicles (and wounding wraithlord on 3's isn't that shabby either).

You know, I suppose this means that I really don't need to give them meltabombs, as I can only think of one case (land raiders) where they would be useful, and I do have meltabombs on everything else. Obviously I'd like to keep them on claw lords, but I suppose it isn't technically necessary for the biker champs either, is it?

Keep them as insurance policy, or strip them out and find somewhere else to put the 15/20 points?

Keep them as insurance policy, or strip them out and find somewhere else to put the 15/20 points?

Take them out and put a combi melta or combi plasma on each of the berserkers rhinos.

The only problem, much to my frustration, is that with the bike list, the first thing I need to do is put a meltabomb on my other lord, leaving me with 15 points. You can't do anything symmetrical with that.

So, I've used mechanized transport AT ALL with only one unit once in the history of my ever. I'm under the impression that, at 1500 points, with only 2 vehicles, my rhinos are likely to explode before they can do anything useful, so putting any upgrade on them, much less a weapon that they'll never get to shoot seems silly.

But, as mentioned, it seems silly to someone who has virtually no experience with transports and no experience at all with rhinos. Am I really going to get more use out of a single melta shot than I would out of extra armor?

Special weapon on a biker/raptor?

Why do you need a Melta Bomb on a Lord? I think if you invested in 2 Meltaguns for the same cost it would be much more points-efficient. As for Rhinos, I never give them ugprades, because they'll never live long enough to make the most out of it.

So, I've used mechanized transport AT ALL with only one unit once in the history of my ever. I'm under the impression that, at 1500 points, with only 2 vehicles, my rhinos are likely to explode before they can do anything useful, so putting any upgrade on them, much less a weapon that they'll never get to shoot seems silly.

But, as mentioned, it seems silly to someone who has virtually no experience with transports and no experience at all with rhinos. Am I really going to get more use out of a single melta shot than I would out of extra armor?

It just depends on the opponent and the situation, really. Against a shooty guard list? Maybe not. Against a drop pod list that had dreadnoughts, and you decide to reserve everything? Absolutely. You may also find yourself in a situation where you more the rhino 12", get the guys out and run them, leaving the rhino empty. Then they have to pick the threat, and if they ignore the rhino, it melts something. If you are facing deepstrikers, like daemons or terminators, a few combi plasma shots will help soften them up.

You may also like the idea of them BEING more of a threat, to keep a little more fire off of your bikers. On the bright side, combi weapons can be modeled in a modular fashion, and so you can try some games with them and some without, and see what you think. I very very rarely ever find myself saying "I really wish I had taken extra armor."

well, so if I strip off all the meltaguns, I save 25 points. Of course, the entirety of my anti-vehicle at 1500 points is now a slough of krak grenades and 4 power fists.

I suppose, against most vehicular-based armies, this will probably be enough. Rear armor AV10 is nearly universal, which means that I shouldn't be having too many problems.

Really, then the only problems are land raiders, monoliths, and storm ravens. Anything else is either going to have weak enough rear armor and/or is going to be slow enough for me to catch with bikes. Unfortunately, melta doesn't work against either storm ravens or monoliths, which means that melta weapons at all would really just be there to bother with land raiders. The question is, though, if whatever is in a land raider has a 21" threat range, when am I ever actually using the meltaguns?

As far as I can tell, they would be a slight insurance policy against skimmers moving 24". In this case, depending on the circumstances, I could move 12" and then shoot a melta out to 12" more. Still, it's a single melta shot that's not in melta range.

In fact, the only thing I can see them being particularly useful for is against dreadnoughts. I don't know if it's worth it to spend 25 points for that single contingency.

But what else would I spend the 25 points on?

But what else would I spend the 25 points on?

Nothing that we haven't already covered. Might as well just stick with the bombs.

You can always buy another berserker.

But then they wouldn't be at Khornes sacred number, it'd blow the whole deal!

Are you completely opposed to defilers?

I have had nothing but great experiences with them.

But I only run them in pairs. 1 defiler = dead meat!

No, I'm not, actually.

Defilers are big and flashy, I will admit. The problem is that I can't figure out a way to spend more than like 500 points on them, which means they can never really form the core of my list.

Perhaps once the chaos codex gets updated, and you can take them in squads of three, but until then, how would I make a thematic list with them?

I would advise against defilers. I've ran three of them in my list and almost always they were the cause of my demise (chewing up so much points and getting dong'd in the first two phases of the game). It's more or less a Leman Russ that cant fire Sponsons, and has drastically lower armor for a massive increase in size.

Well you could go with something like this

HQ:
Sorc, wings, gift
Sorc, wings, gift

Troop:
5xCSM, melta, aspchamp, pf
5xCSM, melta, aspchamp, pf
5xCSM, melta, aspchamp, pf

FA:
9x Raptors, 2xmelta, aspchamp, LC, meltabombs
9x Raptors, 2xmelta, aspchamp, LC, meltabombs

Heavy:
5xHavoks 2xmissle launchers
5xHavoks 2xmissle launchers

This give you your scoring guys, Your fast raptors with Sorc support and now gives you some anit-armor/anti skimmer power. Not a lot admitidly, but some is better than none in my book.

I have been greatly enjoying your Bat-Reps. As a long time Chaos player, I always like another member to the fold. hahaha. Let me know if you need any bits, I have a large collection of stuff and would gladly help you out.

So, coming back to this thread after about a week, and mulling over the codex, I have some ideas for you.

1st: You want a fun, in your face, flashy list? Just checking, becasue this is what the below suggestions are based on.

Okay, down to buisness:

1. DP's- a fun one is MoT, Waprtime and Gift (yes, DPs can take it), and wings. Again, two warptimes a turn could be (COULD BE) devastating. This guy, wiht the warptime as well, will be a literal monster in CC.

2. Kharn- I see you like him already- use him! He's hte best special character we have acess to.

3. Finally, on the khorne lords, I would, just for kicks and for its risk/reward, use the daemon weapon. Can't say no to 17 attacks!

Oh, don't tell me about kharn. I'd really like to play him. He's the only model in the entirety of the game that literally can not miss. Every close combat attack, and every shot with his pistol hurts SOMEONE.

Also, I very seriously considered the bloodfeeder. The problem is that it's SO woefully crappy. Assuming you're not doing one of those 1 in 3 where you do nothing, with average rolling, you're not doing much more damage than a set of lightning claws. Lightning claws that cost 33% more with a 33% chance of malfuncioning? I can't help but pass on that.

Also, I've reconsidered raptors as well. The two lists that I'm seriously considering are:

2x khorne lords on bikes with lightning claws
2x 8-bike squads with fists
2x 8-berzerker squads with rhinos

OR

khorne lord with wings, power weapon
3x10 raptor squads, MoK, 2x melta and fist apiece
3x8 berzerker squads with fists (one with PW)

That or combine the 3 10x raptor squads into 2 16x raptor squads with a couple of fist upgrades. 55 khorne-fed models of pure violence, more than half on wings, does sound mighty tempting...

More, smaller squads of raptors is better because of their expensive cost, and is better for what they do- support larger, stronger units. Or, they can fly around and contest obectives. ANother thing is to pop tanks. Though many people do not, and while they are not cost efficient, I really like raptors. Last time I played, I used them as tank poppers and gave 'em fists. Works quite well, and a banner would be cool too. The problem, again, is cost. I would still opt for the smaller units, though, as the larger ones are just too many points in a less survivable unit.

Have you considered possessed? And what about lords of other gods? The Nurgle Daemon Weapon is excellent.

I'm not really a mathhammer kinda guy, as that all goes down on a bad day... So I try to use the three army building E's:: experiments, experience, and estimates (of damage dealt; comparing it 'simply' to other units).

Also, with a khorne based list, that's kinda a new topic... so new thread time!

Hmm... I think that's all! Good luck!