37795
Post by: Devilduckii
This is my first thread so if I've made any mistakes please tell me and I'll try to correct them 
Form what I have see of the new Grey knight codex it's looking very good. but what is going to be the main weaknesses to the army. That is where I need your expertise of your many different armies.
If what I've heard is correct and all the knight count as psykers, the witch hunters will be very affective against the with all their anti psyker equipement. This includes things such as
the culexus assassin with it's soulless, phychic abomination, psyker assassin and life drain special rules.
The old style psychic hood.
Sisters of battle rule shield of faith.
Hammer of the witches psychic power.
The arco-flagelants with their many power weapon attacks should destroy the power armour and terminator armour.
Inferno pistols and meltas should also kill those knight.
So over to you guy 
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Post by: Sageheart
Ap 3 pie plates kill any power armor goodness.
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Post by: Just Dave
I want to say "this new Codex has no weaknesses and is broken", but I'd hate to stand out from the crowd...
However, a serious disadvantage for most GK armies is and always has been Low Model Count and Mech.
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Post by: Devilduckii
So orks and nids would be very affective against them
Maybe it's time for me to bring my orks back to the table and start gaming with them again
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Post by: mrblacksunshine_1978
We won't know till they are played in touranment to see the weakness and strenght of the GK codex.
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Post by: Surtur
IG, they can't stop the psychic, but they can lower leadership with psycher squads and leman russ the hell out of em. Automatically Appended Next Post: Devilduckii wrote:So orks and nids would be very affective against them
Maybe it's time for me to bring my orks back to the table and start gaming with them again
Don't bring nobs.
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Post by: Cerebrium
As much as people would like you to believe "NOTHING CAN BEAT THEM I'M GOING TO QUIT 40K BECAUSE OF THIS WAAAAAAAAARD", they've got the same weaknesses as a normal space mairne army, and then some. They really won't hold up against hordes, there's only so much they can do in one turn, which is significantly less than, say, Tyranids or Orks. Also, anything with AP3 or less will sweep the board of power armour.
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Post by: Devilduckii
I just want to be ready for the when the come. Lots of people form my local GW sound very interested in them. I hope this wont be space wolfs part 2.
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Post by: Just Dave
I'd disagree with them being weak against hordes actually, Incinerators, Dreadknights and mass storm bolters should really do a number on horde armies IMHO.
However, they still suffer from having a low model count, weakness to AP3 and vulnerability to mech.
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Post by: Devilduckii
Surtur wrote:IG, they can't stop the psychic, but they can lower leadership with psycher squads and leman russ the hell out of em.
Thats sounding good. For a momment I somehow forgot about the IG.
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Post by: don_mondo
Surtur wrote:IG, they can't stop the psychic, but they can lower leadership with psycher squads
GHaven't seen the codex yet, but I would assume they are still Fearless? If so, lowering their LD really isn't going to do anything. But the PBS large blast can still put a hurt on them, with a 50% chance of beating 3+ armor.
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Post by: Devilduckii
GHaven't seen the codex yet, but I would assume they are still Fearless? If so, lowering their LD really isn't going to do anything. But the PBS large blast can still put a hurt on them, with a 50% chance of beating 3+ armor.
Gk nolonger have fearless now they have. And I shall know no fear. Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry I can not get quotes to work properly on my iPod
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Post by: mrfantastical
So orks and nids would be very affective against them
Maybe it's time for me to bring my orks back to the table and start gaming with them again
Honestly this codex is death to Horde armies. Nids might be ok because of shadows of the warp, but orks are screwed. Cleansing flame is the most broken power, and you have the potential to do it 7 times before combat begins.
Here orks, let's wound your entire 30 boy squad on 4+ per model before combat begins. Wait let me do that a few more times.... Stupid unbalanced.
In close combat it depends on a lot of factors, but so far GK's are going to be pretty darn tough to beat. Best bet is to shoot them at range with low AP stuff.
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Post by: sourclams
Hordes definitely have huge disadvantages against GK lists that feature Purifiers to any extent.
Mech is still their least favorite matchup; fast mech doubly so.
20963
Post by: Kommissar Kel
PBS will be an exceptionally poor choice against them.
First: It is a unit full of Psykers; so all sorts of weapons get all sorts of Bonus abilities against them.
Second: There is going to be at least 1 Psychic Hood in every GK army, if not more(again we will have to wait for the Final Codex)
Third: The Aegis; even without Hoods getting the powers off will be a little more difficult.
Fourth: Weaken resolve expires at the end of the Guard player's turn; so the only effect you can get from it is to ensure the knight run for a turn, or to prevent Force weapon activation in the Assault Phase that turn(not that the knights would bother)
Fifth: Whatever Psyk-out grenades do; I am sure the PBS will hate them.
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
can we wait and see the codex, and of course, *gasp* play the Grey knights before assessing their weaknesses and strengths?
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Post by: Kommissar Kel
No.
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Post by: Lord_Osma
Note to self: more fast mech....lol
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Post by: Gavo
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:can we wait and see the codex
A lot of people have already read the codex, myself included.
After talking with some extremely experienced players, they noted that the most powerful builds probably will have PAGK spam, it's going to be nasty. Daemons are essentially screwed against them, too. They have a lot of fun toys, but at the end of the day they can field a hugely competitive army. Also, while people are talking about Plasma being extremely effective against them, there's some sort of way (With Inquisitors I believe) that they can make Plasma essentially worthless at 12". I believe it makes models within 12" of the Inquisitor BS1 with Plasma or something like that.
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Post by: Warboss Niblet
So would that mean plasma cannons instead of plasma rifles would be the way to go then? Keep out ot 12" and still drop AP2 death on them?
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Post by: spaceelf
Just Dave wrote:I want to say "this new Codex has no weaknesses and is broken", but I'd hate to stand out from the crowd...
I don't think you would stand out at all. Spamming henchmen in vehicles is the definition of broken. The codex needs an FAQ. If it were me I would require that every henchman squad need an Inquisitor even if you take Cortez and make them take up troop slots.
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Post by: Surtur
I sat down with the codex yesterday and got a headache. Literally. I can't play a winning game against this codex with my Space Marines. I think my best bet is guard. Russes: demolisher, battle cannon and executioner, and just spam them. Conscript commissar blobs. Detpack special weapon squads.
Every nemesis weapon is a force weapon. Every GK has a nemesis weapon. PAGKs are 20pts base. Every one of their vehicles can ignore stun and shaken via psychic power. And the plasma syphon is 40pts total IIRC (any inquiz is 25pts, the syphon was 15 I think). Librarians are 150 base, with termy armor and 2 powers per turn, you buy as many powers as you like for 5 a pop. The dreadknight only weighs in at 130 points base with 4 wounds and s and t of 6, more than enough to make every nid player cry. Oh, and 2 DCCW base as well. AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I HATE THIS DEX.
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Post by: Just Dave
spaceelf wrote:Just Dave wrote:I want to say "this new Codex has no weaknesses and is broken", but I'd hate to stand out from the crowd...
I don't think you would stand out at all. Spamming henchmen in vehicles is the definition of broken. The codex needs an FAQ. If it were me I would require that every henchman squad need an Inquisitor even if you take Cortez and make them take up troop slots.
 Actually, I was making a sarcastic comment about all the people screaming about the Codex being broken etc. when it hasn't been released and/or they haven't seen a copy for themselves...
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Post by: ChrisWWII
As far as I can tell, the best way to beat Grey Knights will be to tear them apart from range with heavy weapons. It seems to me that one of the best weapons against them will be lascannon spam. Lots of long range anti tank will bring down Dreadknights, and I can likely spam enough firepower to drown Termies in wounds. They can't pass EVERY 2+ save, and even Paladins go down to S8 weapons.
I still say this all speculation. We need to wait for a few more months before we can REALLY figure out what Grey Knights are, and how we can counter them. They're going to be tough, but they won't be invincible.
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Post by: ArtfcllyFlvrd
Just Dave wrote: Actually, I was making a sarcastic comment about all the people screaming about the Codex being broken etc. when it hasn't been released and/or they haven't seen a copy for themselves...
But a lot of people have seen it, you can go into most any store now and see it, most of the more horrifying rumors were true, and some people have already started play testing from it.
I think most armies can still compete against it, but I think it is at the very minimum going to throw a huge wrentch in the meta. Libby's and psychic defense are going to be a must. I think THSS termies will be the GK bane, so they will be even more popular (if that is possible). I think raiders will be hard for builds without inquisitors. Jump heavy blood angels would be good except the whole army has power weapons so you are going to take extreme casualties every time you charge.
I do think it's too early to say it has broken the game, but I think there is more than enough to say this is changing the game.
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Post by: Footsloggin
However, if psychic defense becomes a must, some armies become ABSOLUTELY screwed, while some will struggle a lot more. As stated in the "Proposed rules: Game-Wide Psychic defense", some armies, are nearly devoid of psychic defense, namely Tau, (not sure if CSM do), and Orks, (though the only real things orks have to worry about is purifying flame, and the heavy weapons to pop their vehicles). So Green Tide may become more difficult to play.
Also, remember, that many things with Psychic defense ARE psykers, so much of our weaponry can damage you much more as well.
Though, our weaknesses are much akin to standard Spess Mahreens: Pop our transports, and we become much slower, AP1-3/Power weapons kill us really fast, and drowning us in wounds can kill us quickly.
Apply those to your all-comers lists, something which you probably already have, and you will be just fine.
This only applies to the GK aspects, however, and my area of expertise only applies to this section of the codex, not the Inquistion portion.
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Post by: alarmingrick
Footsloggin wrote:However, if psychic defense becomes a must, some armies become ABSOLUTELY screwed, while some will struggle a lot more. As stated in the "Proposed rules: Game-Wide Psychic defense", some armies, are nearly devoid of psychic defense, namely Tau, (not sure if CSM do), and Orks, (though the only real things orks have to worry about is purifying flame, and the heavy weapons to pop their vehicles). So Green Tide may become more difficult to play.
Also, remember, that many things with Psychic defense ARE psykers, so much of our weaponry can damage you much more as well.
Though, our weaknesses are much akin to standard Spess Mahreens: Pop our transports, and we become much slower, AP1-3/Power weapons kill us really fast, and drowning us in wounds can kill us quickly.
Apply those to your all-comers lists, something which you probably already have, and you will be just fine.
This only applies to the GK aspects, however, and my area of expertise only applies to this section of the codex, not the Inquistion portion.
And what IG have for defense?
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Post by: Footsloggin
Bah, I keep forgetting them. Even you PBS squads get mowed down pretty quickly... Hmm... Well, the fact that your battlecannons and Earthshakers would likely put a hurt on a lot of our units, so you're a little bit more well off as far as killing off the squads goes. (Do not mistake this for sarcasm, it is not).
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Post by: mrfantastical
IG, Orks, and Tau do not have psychic defense. IG only had the allies rule to take care of them, which is now gone. Really the only defense for armies that don't have psychic abilities is to shoot your way out. Well that's good for Tau and IG, but what about Orks?
I'm not trying to troll but I play Orks, and this codex shreds Orks to the extreme.
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Post by: Footsloggin
What do Chaos Space Mahreens have?
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Post by: sourclams
alarmingrick wrote:
And what IG have for defense?
Remember that the WH codex still has Allies rules, and IG can still take a WH Inq Lord with Hood for total table coverage psy def.
It's not a great option, but if psydef becomes "necessary" IG do have options.
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Post by: alarmingrick
sourclams wrote:alarmingrick wrote:
And what IG have for defense?
Remember that the WH codex still has Allies rules, and IG can still take a WH Inq Lord with Hood for total table coverage psy def.
It's not a great option, but if psydef becomes "necessary" IG do have options.
Ah, but for how long? i really feel they had a chance to address that problem when they released the Codex.
all they had to do was give the Primaris access to a Psychic hood and problem solved, imho. okay maybe not solved,
but better than nothing.
my opinion of the GK biggest weekness is low model count.
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Post by: ArtfcllyFlvrd
But most of the GK power's don't mean anything to guard. S5 storm bolters, I'm all AV 12 on the front. Warpquake, we don't deepstrike (not usually anyways). Astral Aim, it's ok but not game changing. All insta death, overkill against guard.
Most of the most henouis psychic powers, in all armies, just don't work against mech. Chimeras are their own form of psychic defense.
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Post by: Therion
And what IG have for defense?
IG have WH Inquisitors that are perfectly legal. Additionally, armies like mech IG couldn't care less if the Marines they're facing this time have force weapons or not. It's just another day in the life of a leafblower.
I'm not trying to troll but I play Orks, and this codex shreds Orks to the extreme.
Purifiers are crazy good against pretty much everything in close combat, but that's about it. Crowe lists that go all out with Purifiers will then serve as hard counters to some types of lists but they'll have plenty of hard counters themselves. On/off armies like that generally don't do well at tournaments.
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Post by: mrfantastical
Time will tell if purifiers will be as deadly and well played as they could be, no doubt.
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Post by: bucheonman
I think this codex, from what I have seen, kicks Tyranids and Orks in the head. It outclasses other marines with the exception of Space Wolves, so they'll have to fight an uphill battle to win.
Guard and Dark Eldar should do well against them. Not sure about Eldar.
Chaos never had anything good anyways.
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Post by: jcd386
I think that the new GK codex is very balenced and that if played well they can overcome their weaknesses, but as far as i can tell the weaknesses of the grey knights are:
They are marines. Anything that kills marines will kill grey knights. Power weapons, plasma, missile launchers, whatever.
Cost. Basic grey knights cost something like 25% more than regular marines. This means there will be less of them then in most other armies.
No meltaguns that are not on vehicles or BS3. Warrior acolytes are definitely competitive, but not having meltaguns on greyknghts means they have to rely on psycannons to destroy vehciles. This works agaisnt transports, but is annoying against AV 13-14.
They are all psykers. Anything that is good against psykers will be good against them. Grey Knights VS. Grey Knights games should be really gruesome, but other armies also have some psychic defence. 1 rune priest or librarian within 24" inches of the them will shut down half their powers, which should help.
What this means:
In general, when fighting Grey Knights:
Avoid assaulting them. Yeah...they all have nemesis force weapons. Stay away from those.
Shoot them to death. Once they get to you, unless you are a super close combat unit like TH/SS termies, you probably die. So, shoot them a lot. The good armies like Guard, Marines and Dark Eldar can all do this fine. Tyranids are probably doomed (THANK GOD for shadow in the warp...but still), and so are green tide style orks, but that orks are a weak army anyway. Tau will probably lose about as much VS grey knights as they do other armies since they already fold in CC, and necrons suck until their new book comes out, so they don't matter right now. When they do come out i'm sure they'll shoot GKs to death just fine. Eldar and CSM are pretty weak against good marine lists anyway, so not much has changed there either (Nurgle armies are extra screwed, though, lol). Funnily enough, Chaos Daemons are not that bad off unless the GK player takes a lot of the specifically anti-daemon items. Rerolls to hit suck, but internal warrior and inv saves avoid most of the nemesis weapon effects, and LD 10 makes instant death somewhat rare.
Avoid using rock units against them. This is part of the whole not assaulting thing, but GKs are going to be especially good against units like Nob bikers and TWC because of their nemesis weapons instant killing models if they pass their LD test. Wound allocation is great fun until your models start dying from the first failed invul save. TT/SS terminators probably be about as useful as they are now, since they only have 1 wounds anyway, and inv saves are all you get against them anyway...
Make sure your units are in transports. If you haven't figured out by now that mech is the way to go, you will want to mech up now, as you want as much mobility and protection as possible, especially since grey knights are weaker vs vehicles than other armies.
Bring psychic Defense. This is a good idea most of the time anyway, but rune priests and librarians will be very useful against grey knights.
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Post by: Niiai
If haf of what you say here is true then it is just lovley. They will bend/break the "basic rules of the game" the same way dark eldar and deamons do. Playing a game with one of those armies just feels like a diferent playstyle then all the rest. If the greyknights show up with 25% less marines on the table they really have to work overtime.
I can't wait to se what they will do with the necron codex. :-)
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Post by: jcd386
Grey knights are going to be a medium range assault army. They want to stay in 24" of you to shoot you, and taunt you into assaulting their force weapons.
I am looking forward to shooting them to death with my Space Wolves. Missile launchers, las/plas and melta will kill them just as easily as they kill everything else. The only real difference is that I won't be able to live very long in assaults, which sucks, but we'll see how it goes. I personally cannot wait.
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Post by: Che-Vito
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Post by: Reecius
It's the same old song every time a new book comes out.
Wait and see how it plays out on the reality of the table top before making any snap judgments. I bet it's not nearly as bad as people think.
I look forward to another powerful army in the game, it will mix things up.
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Post by: doubled
BA should do well against this codex, furisoso and dcompany dreads will eat most choices or tie them up forever, and anything charging in with a lot of attacks, like dcompany, lc termies. 10 man assualt squads and whatnot will beat knights in combat. Even going simultaneous it will be a tonne of attacks and speed seems to be a weakness in the GK codex, Eldar with their runes of course hamstring all the neat little psy abilities quite well.
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Post by: mrblacksunshine_1978
Cerebrium wrote:As much as people would like you to believe "NOTHING CAN BEAT THEM I'M GOING TO QUIT 40K BECAUSE OF THIS WAAAAAAAAARD", they've got the same weaknesses as a normal space mairne army, and then some. They really won't hold up against hordes, there's only so much they can do in one turn, which is significantly less than, say, Tyranids or Orks. Also, anything with AP3 or less will sweep the board of power armour.
WOW, where do you get your information from, becuase i would like to know where the BS that you are being fed.
Players of 40k, if you know anything about the gaming enviroment you know that it would at less take about 3 months before the we really would know the in's and out's of the GK Codex. This was the same for the other codex, BA. SW and DE. Players are still crying over how OP the SW codex, and every other codex that seems to be broken. Rememebr that its not only the Codex, but the player behind it.
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Post by: Justus
I'm not too afraid. A little Defiler Battlecannon here and there, shoot 'em up with my Vindicators, while marines can clean up remains. Mark of Slaanesh on Lightening Claw Terminators or power weapon Chosen? OP as hell. Remember the scare when Dark Eldar was coming out? Rinse and repeat.
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Post by: jy2
doubled wrote:BA should do well against this codex, furisoso and dcompany dreads will eat most choices or tie them up forever, and anything charging in with a lot of attacks, like dcompany, lc termies. 10 man assualt squads and whatnot will beat knights in combat. Even going simultaneous it will be a tonne of attacks and speed seems to be a weakness in the GK codex, Eldar with their runes of course hamstring all the neat little psy abilities quite well.
Don't rely too much on furious charge. GK's can take nemesis force halberds which give them +2 I. It's free on terminators but cost 5pts on regular PAGK's.
Eldar is probably one of the few armies which has a strong advantage over the knights with their Runes of Warding and Wave Serpents ignoring rending.
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Post by: sourclams
Justus wrote:I'm not too afraid. A little Defiler Battlecannon here and there, shoot 'em up with my Vindicators, while marines can clean up remains. Mark of Slaanesh on Lightening Claw Terminators or power weapon Chosen? OP as hell. Remember the scare when Dark Eldar was coming out? Rinse and repeat.
A lot of GK squads are going to be striking at I6 (or even 10), so if you're bringing those units up as counters you probably ought to re-think your "usual" counters.
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Post by: Andilus Greatsword
jcd386 wrote:I think that the new GK codex is very balenced and that if played well they can overcome their weaknesses, but as far as i can tell the weaknesses of the grey knights are:
They are marines. Anything that kills marines will kill grey knights. Power weapons, plasma, missile launchers, whatever.
Cost. Basic grey knights cost something like 25% more than regular marines. This means there will be less of them then in most other armies.
No meltaguns that are not on vehicles or BS3. Warrior acolytes are definitely competitive, but not having meltaguns on greyknghts means they have to rely on psycannons to destroy vehciles. This works agaisnt transports, but is annoying against AV 13-14.
They are all psykers. Anything that is good against psykers will be good against them. Grey Knights VS. Grey Knights games should be really gruesome, but other armies also have some psychic defence. 1 rune priest or librarian within 24" inches of the them will shut down half their powers, which should help.
What this means:
In general, when fighting Grey Knights:
Avoid assaulting them. Yeah...they all have nemesis force weapons. Stay away from those.
Shoot them to death. Once they get to you, unless you are a super close combat unit like TH/SS termies, you probably die. So, shoot them a lot. The good armies like Guard, Marines and Dark Eldar can all do this fine. Tyranids are probably doomed (THANK GOD for shadow in the warp...but still), and so are green tide style orks, but that orks are a weak army anyway. Tau will probably lose about as much VS grey knights as they do other armies since they already fold in CC, and necrons suck until their new book comes out, so they don't matter right now. When they do come out i'm sure they'll shoot GKs to death just fine. Eldar and CSM are pretty weak against good marine lists anyway, so not much has changed there either (Nurgle armies are extra screwed, though, lol). Funnily enough, Chaos Daemons are not that bad off unless the GK player takes a lot of the specifically anti-daemon items. Rerolls to hit suck, but internal warrior and inv saves avoid most of the nemesis weapon effects, and LD 10 makes instant death somewhat rare.
Avoid using rock units against them. This is part of the whole not assaulting thing, but GKs are going to be especially good against units like Nob bikers and TWC because of their nemesis weapons instant killing models if they pass their LD test. Wound allocation is great fun until your models start dying from the first failed invul save. TT/SS terminators probably be about as useful as they are now, since they only have 1 wounds anyway, and inv saves are all you get against them anyway...
Make sure your units are in transports. If you haven't figured out by now that mech is the way to go, you will want to mech up now, as you want as much mobility and protection as possible, especially since grey knights are weaker vs vehicles than other armies.
Bring psychic Defense. This is a good idea most of the time anyway, but rune priests and librarians will be very useful against grey knights.
They're scary, but every single GK that goes down is going to make them die on the inside.
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Post by: jy2
Justus wrote:I'm not too afraid. A little Defiler Battlecannon here and there, shoot 'em up with my Vindicators, while marines can clean up remains. Mark of Slaanesh on Lightening Claw Terminators or power weapon Chosen? OP as hell. Remember the scare when Dark Eldar was coming out? Rinse and repeat.
And you shouldn't be. Lash and oblits will still work wonders on any MEQ build.
You do, however, have to watch out for Nemesis force halberds, which give the knights I6. Also, watch out for psyk-grenades, which reduces daemons and psykers to I1 in assault.
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Post by: ChrisWWII
Similarly, I'm not that afraid. Massed lascannons to take down Dreadknights and Terminators from far away, battlecannons to shred PAGKK squads....my only worries will be about them getting too close to my firing line, and I have blob squads for tarpitting purpouses. I'm much more worried about possible Inquisition meching though...
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Post by: imweasel
Reecius wrote:I look forward to another powerful army in the game, it will mix things up.
Excellent observation and I completely agree.
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Post by: Warboss Niblet
I think that the best defense for chaos will be oblits and to a lesser extent plasma armed marines doing rhino drivebys. I would just rely on killing as much as possible with plasma at range and asssault only if needed.
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Post by: CT GAMER
Gavo wrote: Daemons are essentially screwed against them
Imagine that...
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Post by: ChrisWWII
Which in all honesty is my biggest complaint about the Grey Knights as a whole...they are a hard counter to another army. I liked them better as a special add on unit you could get that was particularly good at fighting daemons. I think a better way to do Grey Knigths would be to make them basically an Imperial equivalent of Eldar Harlequins....ah well, that's just my thoughts. I'll stop dragging the thread OT now.
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Post by: Surtur
Ok, it's been 2 pages and nobody's said it.
The weakness of the Grey Knights codex is Matt Ward's fluff. BAM!
1986
Post by: thehod
I reserve judgment until I play them on the tabletop. There is paperhammer 40k and Warhammer 40k.
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Post by: Adam LongWalker
What do you expect from Mat Ward? Something Balanced?
I read that codex page for page and I did not like it one bit. Already there are people making those "lists" that I simply dread.
Now what people are completely forgetting is the amount of terrain on the game board.
Because of 5th Ed, more often than not there is more that 25% of terrain on a standard gaming board. This means a lot of +4 cover saves against those so called +3AP or better attacks. A smart player uses cover to their advantage, and I certainly believe that many experienced players building the GK army have already thought about how to deal with shooty armies.
Be sensible with your terrain placement if allowed, if not then Shooty armies are going to need to make sure that they are mobile enough to shoot at that army at all angles.
I will say with some satisfaction, Nids will give them a hard time, secondly DE should as well.
My ork army is not built like some the rest that is posted on this site.
I have 45 lootas in 3 battle wagons with lobbas for starters, but that is way down my list of painting.
My pre-heresy SW army comes first and I'll throw that against this GK Army and see what happens.
I'll probably get curbed stomped but heh I have a fluff army, I'm expecting to be owned.
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Post by: Exergy
mrfantastical wrote:IG, Orks, and Tau do not have psychic defense. IG only had the allies rule to take care of them, which is now gone. Really the only defense for armies that don't have psychic abilities is to shoot your way out. Well that's good for Tau and IG, but what about Orks?
I'm not trying to troll but I play Orks, and this codex shreds Orks to the extreme.
DE have the cruisible of malediction, which could end up killing a whole lot of grey knights, but its one use only and one per army
other than that they have what, TGL on raiders? That will work real well.
I dont feel DE will have much of a problem, but its not like DE have psyker defense.
Wyches do pretty well in assault with the high Int, 4++, Shardnets, and overall low cost.
Disintigrators and DL spam will be great
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Post by: mindfield
I think what they lack is still long range firepower, seems like by design as well. They are not expected to hang back in a gunline like Tau or IG, they are expected to rush their enemy and assault.
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Post by: schadenfreude
IG and Tau have no psychic defense. Without any psychic defense that means IG and Tau have no chance of beating Grey Knights in CC. That being said IG and Tau having no psychic defense is completely meaningless with the 1 exception of a power blob army going up against a ton of purifiers.
Grey knights cost more, have less models, and with the lower model count have less firepower than other marine armies. That's good news for IG, Tau, DE, and Mechdar.
Dreadnights would go down fast to a CCS doing bring it down on themselves for 8 TL plasmagun shots at BS4. Fire dragons or wraithguard would also do the trick.
Flashlights, Chimera spam, Pulse rifles, and bladestorm will chew up regular PAGK.
PAGK are no better than tac marines in CC against DE wyches. Both are 1 attack models swinging at a 4+ invo.
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Post by: Sephyr
So far, I dislike the codex a lot. I hope to be proved wrong after the actual release. It's gimmicky and the fluff is subpar.
Yes, GK are a medium-range army with most of their cooler toys. They also teleport and DS all over the place to suddenly appear in optimal range to unleash torrents of high S fire.
People keep bringing up a low model count as an issue; I just don't see it, the basic PGAK is less expensive than, say, a Possessed CSM and only marginally pricier than a plague marine, and brings a whole lot more to the table, between power/force weapons, psyker powers and whatnot. It'd be surprised if the average GK army is even 15% smaller than the average SM army in number of models. Also, they can bring in some reasonably competent cannon fodder in the ever-reliable chimeras to pad the list up.Their only real flaw is a general lack of non-vehicle melta.
If before there was almost no reason to take non-TH/SS termies, now there truly is no reason at all. You might as well glue them together and use them for scenery.
23433
Post by: schadenfreude
Sephyr wrote:
So far, I dislike the codex a lot. I hope to be proved wrong after the actual release. It's gimmicky and the fluff is subpar.
Yes, GK are a medium-range army with most of their cooler toys. They also teleport and DS all over the place to suddenly appear in optimal range to unleash torrents of high S fire.
People keep bringing up a low model count as an issue; I just don't see it, the basic PGAK is less expensive than, say, a Possessed CSM and only marginally pricier than a plague marine, and brings a whole lot more to the table, between power/force weapons, psyker powers and whatnot. It'd be surprised if the average GK army is even 15% smaller than the average SM army in number of models. Also, they can bring in some reasonably competent cannon fodder in the ever-reliable chimeras to pad the list up.Their only real flaw is a general lack of non-vehicle melta.
If before there was almost no reason to take non-TH/SS termies, now there truly is no reason at all. You might as well glue them together and use them for scenery.
GK don't outgun other marine chapters, they out CC them. The only heavy hitting ranged unit I have seen so far is henchmen with an orangutan, but that unit is going to be either very fragile, very expensive, or both fragile and expensive. Most importantly if all the anti tank melta firepower in a GK army is concentrated in a couple units of non PA henchmen guess who's going to be the bullet magnet?
The army is giong to be at least 20% smaller given all the cool toys they have and expensive cost of everything. That's 20% less firepower and 20% less durability. That would take a 50 model count army down to a 40 model count army. What happens if a gunline can kill 15 models on turn 1, and 10 models on turn 2.
Non GK 50 model count V Gunline
Turn 1 down to 35 models shoot back with 35 models
Turn 2 down to 25 models shoot back with 25 models, and assault next turn.
25 models in the assault, 50 models worth of firepower being returned against the gunline before the assault.
GK 40 model count V Gunline
Turn 1=down to 25 models shoot back with 25 models
Turn 2 down to 15 models, shoot back with 15 models, and assault next turn
15 models in the assault, 35 models worth of firepower being returned against the gunline before the assault.
Final results
GK return 70% of the firepower of a Non GK army by the end of turn 2.
GK have 60% of the number of models ready to assault the gunline, they are higher quality assault units but that doesn't matter against Tau or IG.
GK have 60% the number of remaining wounds left on the battlefield to receive enemy firepower.
Better CC at the cost of less durability and less firepower won't help GK at all against a gunline. GK seem like they are very much at risk of getting tabled by Tau.
23793
Post by: Acardia
I play tested against the book yesterday at 2000. with my Tau. It's not as bad as it looks. Two dreadnights shunted, and got tied up in kroot bubble wrap for a few turns. My block that had 2 krootox in it, dropped a dreadknight in turn two. The other one wiped the kroot just in time to get lit by broadsides.
Those large bases allow to pile on a bunch of attacks with cheap troops.
I ran a hybrid Mech-Gunline list, with a fire base and a mech/battle suit element pulling off to one flank, forcing him to split fire between the two elements. and getting picked apart.
He shunted a squad on the last turn to claim an objective with 2 modesl left in his deployment zone, and promptly went to ground and I couldn't get them off resulting in a draw.
The low target saturation makes markerlights highly effective, but shunt out of their line of sight at the last moment was a very skillful move.
1943
Post by: labmouse42
Psychic defenses hurt the army. I see no reason for any army not to take at least a psychic hood now-a-days.
Eldar psychic defenses bone this army. Sure each vehicle can use a psychic power to ignore shakens and stuns, but they also have a 33% to glance themselves.
If the GK are out of vehicles, the Dark Eldar will have a field day with tons of poisoned weapons and enough lances to drop the knights.
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Post by: sourclams
Sephyr wrote:People keep bringing up a low model count as an issue; I just don't see it, the basic PGAK is less expensive than, say, a Possessed CSM and only marginally pricier than a plague marine, and brings a whole lot more to the table, between power/force weapons, psyker powers and whatnot.
I disagree. The Possessed CSM, for example, is terrible and never seen on the table. So that comparison is out. The Plague Marine is T5 with FNP, making him four times as resilient as the PAGK to all shooting below S8 and above AP3. That's a big deal.
It'd be surprised if the average GK army is even 15% smaller than the average SM army in number of models. Also, they can bring in some reasonably competent cannon fodder in the ever-reliable chimeras to pad the list up.Their only real flaw is a general lack of non-vehicle melta.
The GK army is only going to be 85% of an SM army's size if they are taking, literally, nothing but bare-bones PAGK or it's a mixed force including a lot of inquisition.
There's a lot of places to lose points throughout the codex; expensive HQs, wargear and upgrades, 'big' units like GKTs and DKs... it's going to be a fairly elite army, even by MEQ standards.
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Post by: schadenfreude
The meta game was looking really bleak for Tau last year when BA came out and high model count, FNP, fast jump marine armies started to become a common sight, and an absolute terror against Tau armies. Now with GK coming out things are really starting to look up for Tau.
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Post by: Acardia
schadenfreude wrote:The meta game was looking really bleak for Tau last year when BA came out and high model count, FNP, fast jump marine armies started to become a common sight, and an absolute terror against Tau armies. Now with GK coming out things are really starting to look up for Tau.
Yup, Sadly after last 3 books, I think the Railgun is coming off my other hammer head a well. Ion Cannon is just becomming too efficient in the current meta.
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Post by: schadenfreude
sourclams wrote:Sephyr wrote:People keep bringing up a low model count as an issue; I just don't see it, the basic PGAK is less expensive than, say, a Possessed CSM and only marginally pricier than a plague marine, and brings a whole lot more to the table, between power/force weapons, psyker powers and whatnot.
I disagree. The Possessed CSM, for example, is terrible and never seen on the table. So that comparison is out. The Plague Marine is T5 with FNP, making him four times as resilient as the PAGK to all shooting below S8 and above AP3. That's a big deal.
It'd be surprised if the average GK army is even 15% smaller than the average SM army in number of models. Also, they can bring in some reasonably competent cannon fodder in the ever-reliable chimeras to pad the list up.Their only real flaw is a general lack of non-vehicle melta.
The GK army is only going to be 85% of an SM army's size if they are taking, literally, nothing but bare-bones PAGK or it's a mixed force including a lot of inquisition.
There's a lot of places to lose points throughout the codex; expensive HQs, wargear and upgrades, 'big' units like GKTs and DKs... it's going to be a fairly elite army, even by MEQ standards.
That's a big IF that most players are not going to follow, that's a lot like saying people will loose weight if they diet and exercise. The cannon fodder is elite unless the list has Cortez who is an expensive HQ, and players are going to have a hard time keeping the cannon fodder cheap. GK vehicles also cost more. The expensive toys are pretty awesome. Last but not least a more expensive lower model count GK army will beat a higher model count less elite GK army. The extra points spent on making units even more elite CC units are well worth their points when going up against other CC monsters. It's going to be really hard for GK players to go on a point spending diet, and there are no easy answers to the question of how to build a GK list.
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Post by: Sageheart
I am not worried about GKs too much, as a guard player I think there are a great many counters i could use. Mech up and plasma/melta up, and i have enough low AP and armor to deal with their nasty units. Or just get lots of heavy weapon teams with lascannons, or autocannons, or missile launchers, and just fire them to bits while my mech toys with them. I think they are a very specialized army, and due to that are going to be like normal sm with less models and more nasty stuff in a few areas, such as combat, anti-demon, anti-psyker. If you just focus on making sure their specialization is wasted on cheap guard squads, or shot down, you should be good!
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Post by: Footsloggin
labmouse42 wrote:Psychic defenses hurt the army. I see no reason for any army not to take at least a psychic hood now-a-days.
Eldar psychic defenses bone this army. Sure each vehicle can use a psychic power to ignore shakens and stuns, but they also have a 33% to glance themselves.
I'm pretty sure that your wrong on this. You realize it only glances itself on the roll of a 2 and 12, and that the most likely outcomes on a 2d6 are 7, 6 and 8, and 5 and 9, with 7 being the most likely, 6 and 8 being the next most likely numbers, and then 5 and 9 being again the next most likely numbers. Assuming that the transport is LD10, you will rarely see the power fail.
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Post by: labmouse42
Footsloggin wrote:I'm pretty sure that your wrong on this. You realize it only glances itself on the roll of a 2 and 12, and that the most likely outcomes on a 2d6 are 7, 6 and 8, and 5 and 9, with 7 being the most likely, 6 and 8 being the next most likely numbers, and then 5 and 9 being again the next most likely numbers. Assuming that the transport is LD10, you will rarely see the power fail.
Eldar have an upgrade for their farseer called "Runes of Warding" This causes enemy psykers to make tests on 3d6, and if a 12 or greater is rolled then they take perils of the warp. See page 26 of the eldar codex.
That is what bones the psyker heavy armies. Mephiston casting 3 powers per turn can kill himself on turn 2 (rare, but it can happen)
http://www.ogmiosproject.org/articles/stattables.html
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Post by: Footsloggin
I did not realize you were referring to the Farseer's runes in that scenerio as well, I apologize.
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Post by: lindsay40k
Therion wrote:And what IG have for defense?
IG have WH Inquisitors that are perfectly legal. Additionally, armies like mech IG couldn't care less if the Marines they're facing this time have force weapons or not. It's just another day in the life of a leafblower.
The revised WH pdf-dex removes the rules for mixed armies, Inquisitors only join other armies in Apoc games now.
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Post by: Noir
lindsay40k wrote:Therion wrote:And what IG have for defense?
IG have WH Inquisitors that are perfectly legal. Additionally, armies like mech IG couldn't care less if the Marines they're facing this time have force weapons or not. It's just another day in the life of a leafblower.
The revised WH pdf-dex removes the rules for mixed armies, Inquisitors only join other armies in Apoc games now.
No the pdf WH copy dosen't have the rules. But, the print copy dose, and as GW says the pdf DOSEN'T replace the print copy in anyway.
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Post by: sourclams
Until they actually errata the Witchhunter's Codex, anyone who owns a physical copy can still take an allied WH Inquisitor Lord.
Yes, they omitted the rules from the pdf, but that means nothing for the actual hard copy unless they post an errata.
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Post by: lindsay40k
Oh, naughty. Hmm, might use a WH inq as my Genestealer Magus after all. /threadjack
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Post by: Magister187
Yeah, until they either errata it out or print a new codex, its still there.
That being said, It wouldn't surprise me if they took the easy way out and errata'd the WH Codex to coincide with the release of C:GK to remove the Allies rule all together.
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Post by: schadenfreude
I didn't see a single grey knight power that IG or Tau should be scared of. They have some really scary powers, but I didn't see any that would be good against mech IG or mech Tau. What do they need psychic defense from?
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Post by: Therion
What do they need psychic defense from?
Fortitude. Essentially it costs 5 points per Razorback. They can get 17 into 2000 points. Well, they can get a couple more but that would be at the expense of the 51 special weapons.
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Post by: ColdSadHungry
Im not getting the 'Orks and Tyranids will suffer' thing.
Right now, it looks like the best GK army will be made up mostly of PAGK. You won't see many units of termies and even less Paladins. If you do see a lot, then you're looking at a very low model count army which can be ovecome with numbers.
If you see only PAGK then just swamp them with basic horde troops. It looks like GK will only be a short to medium range army so you'll be able to get relatively close before lots of gunfire hits you. And then it will be the rule of if they have to roll enough saves, power armour or not, they'll take wounds. GK don't have FNP (outside of Paladins), they've lost fearless, lost true grit, have a lower BS rating so they'll be easier to charge into.
Don't get me wrong, no GK player will just stand in one spot and wait to be overcome but don't put points into things like nobs, just get tonnes and tonnes of cheap troops and overwhelm them. Crude, basic, simple. Boring as well, perhaps but valid.
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Post by: Kommissar Kel
A 10-man GK squad will pump out 20-ish shots(less with Incinerators, more with Psilencers/Psycannons) @ 24" and less; when you get really close the incinerators will eat many of your troops. that is all @ BS 4 so you can expect roughly 13 of those 20 shots to hit and between 1/2 and 2/3 of those to wound, those basic troops will not get an armor save, and are not likely to get very good cover saves(as those in front will be targeted).
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Post by: Footsloggin
For Nids and Green tide, I direct your attention to the Purifiers, who's psychic power will maim many a horde unit. It may only be one unit who has the power, however, I know that I will have at least one in my army...
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Post by: ChrisWWII
My response to Grey Knights, I think will be firing line. Prickly Blobs (20~30 man blobs with autocannons/missile launchers, power swords and Commissars), backed up with heavy tanks and lascannons galore. Low model count should mean that I'll hurt them heavily while they're closing on me, and if they get too close for comfort, it's always possible to tarpit with the blobs for a turn or 2.
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Post by: tldr
mrfantastical wrote:IG, Orks, and Tau do not have psychic defense. IG only had the allies rule to take care of them, which is now gone. Really the only defense for armies that don't have psychic abilities is to shoot your way out. Well that's good for Tau and IG, but what about Orks?
I'm not trying to troll but I play Orks, and this codex shreds Orks to the extreme.
Except how can 6-10 space marines take down 20-30 ork boyz? Take all those points you put into nobs and put them into boyz in trukks battlewagons anything and throw em at em. That will bog them down indefinitely.
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Post by: Alphacerberus
tldr wrote:mrfantastical wrote:IG, Orks, and Tau do not have psychic defense. IG only had the allies rule to take care of them, which is now gone. Really the only defense for armies that don't have psychic abilities is to shoot your way out. Well that's good for Tau and IG, but what about Orks?
I'm not trying to troll but I play Orks, and this codex shreds Orks to the extreme.
Except how can 6-10 space marines take down 20-30 ork boyz? Take all those points you put into nobs and put them into boyz in trukks battlewagons anything and throw em at em. That will bog them down indefinitely.
not against purifiers auto hitting 4+ wound on every model b4 combat? and orks with a 6+? if i remember correctly
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Post by: Footsloggin
20 ork boys, 10 wounded, Ork boyz squad down to 11.66 models before combat.
30 ork boys, 15 wounded, Ork boyz squad down to 17.5 models before combat.
The emphasis here is BEFORE, meaning the orks recieve no extra attacks for those killed models. Take into account that many squads will not reach GK lines anywhere near to full strength, and that some will be cut down in CC regardless, and Purifiers become one deadly foe, nearly halving your numbers before you even strike.
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Post by: Andilus Greatsword
Purifiers shouldn't be that big a deal to Nids - considering that Hormaguants have a 24" threat range they can just assault before they can even get a shot off.
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Post by: Doctor Optimal
Footsloggin wrote:20 ork boys, 10 wounded, Ork boyz squad down to 11.66 models before combat.
30 ork boys, 15 wounded, Ork boyz squad down to 17.5 models before combat.
The emphasis here is BEFORE, meaning the orks recieve no extra attacks for those killed models. Take into account that many squads will not reach GK lines anywhere near to full strength, and that some will be cut down in CC regardless, and Purifiers become one deadly foe, nearly halving your numbers before you even strike.
This places the 'Ard boyz 4+ 'eavy armor (or even the Mad Dok's 5++ cybork bodies) armor upgrades in a slightly better light.
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Post by: mrblacksunshine_1978
labmouse42 wrote:Psychic defenses hurt the army. I see no reason for any army not to take at least a psychic hood now-a-days.
Eldar psychic defenses bone this army. Sure each vehicle can use a psychic power to ignore shakens and stuns, but they also have a 33% to glance themselves.
If the GK are out of vehicles, the Dark Eldar will have a field day with tons of poisoned weapons and enough lances to drop the knights.
Poison weapons does not work well with model with T4 or lower. Reminder one shot with a dark lance or three, its a hit or miss. oh here another thing, everybody states that i bring this and that for this army, but forget about one thing......there are several different armies out there, that will be able to handle your army.
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Post by: Footsloggin
Andilus Greatsword wrote:Purifiers shouldn't be that big a deal to Nids - considering that Hormaguants have a 24" threat range they can just assault before they can even get a shot off.
Hormies have a 13-18in threat range, not a 24" threat range, and that leaves them one turn to be blown to *insert diety/non diety here* knows what out of them, and then, if the purifiers are in cover, they not only get their Psychic power, which will kill off almost half of the squad, but will strike first thanks to freaking Robin Cruddace thinking that an assault army doesn't need assault grenades! Assuming that they fire into the gaunts first: If no psybolts are taken: BS: 4 20 Storm bolter shots, 14 hits, 9.8(roughly) wounds, 9.8 dead gaunts... Not too bad, but you just lost at least 1/3 of your unit. If psybolts are taken: Bs: 4 20 Storm bolter shots, 14 hits, 12.25 wounds, 12.25 dead gaunts... Worse... So, while Nids will not be unable to swarm GK, Purifiers will be a pain in the side of those who do play Nid swarm.
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Post by: Sephyr
Going back to the "GKs will suffer due to having such a low model count" issue:
10x Tactical Marine w/Melta, Multi-Melta, Powerfist SGT w/combi-Melta, Rhino w/EA
270pts
10xGrey Knight w/2xPsycannon, Psybolts, Rhino (with free equialent of Daemonic Possession)
275pts
Different loadouts, yes, but both are troops with a decent bit of added gear. The point difference doesn't clear 3%.
You can refine it further by getting their version of meltavets. Also, their rifleman dreads with psy ammo (4 twin-linked s8 shots) for a steal have been brought to my attention. So maybe they won't even lack ranged anti-mech options.
Another question: is the lesser model count (which I don't see happening just yet unless you go hog-wild on upgrades) going to be more significant than the number of models that usually never see combat because they got killed at range, in exploding tansports, and so on?
Remember that these guys teleport around a lot. Given teleporters, Stormravens, psyker tricks (summoning?) and transports immune to 1/3rd of the damage chart, I'd say a larger percentage of their force will get to be in active range of the enemy than other armies.
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Post by: ChrisWWII
Thing is, you're looking at basic Grey Knights. Start comparing HQs, Elites, all the other things you take in an army besides you basic troops choice and then come back to us.
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Post by: Sephyr
Footsloggin wrote:What do Chaos Space Mahreens have?
Just seen this and don't think anyone answered.
They have Kharn. HQ immune to any psyker powers, but doesn't help the squad. 
Other than that, they can petition Tzeentch to make the oposing player roll 12 every time. It's bound to work...sometime.
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Post by: Limbo
I think Tyranids can use CC Shrieks, wingd CC Tyrants and Trygon Prime against GK. Shadow of the Warp has a short pretty short range (and I'm just guessing that most GK powers will have more then 12''), and it will make the GK player think twice about useing those force weapons.
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Post by: Footsloggin
However, Shrieks only have a 5+ save, and no fleet, meaning that they will be subjected to a torrent of Storm bolter fire which willl damage them. Winged CC tyrants? Dreadknights could kill them, same with Trygons, as neither have Invulnerable saves, or the amount of statistical attacks needed, as well as the fact that a Deep Striking Trygon will be killed due to S7(?) Rending psycannons.
However, these are multiple units being used as specific counters for each unit in the Tyranids codex. Like saying that Banshees are a hard counter for Tactical Marines. Though much of this equipment WILL BE in a standard GK army.
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Post by: Limbo
Since when did any Tyranid have armour save? ;P
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Post by: mrblacksunshine_1978
Limbo wrote:I think Tyranids can use CC Shrieks, wingd CC Tyrants and Trygon Prime against GK. Shadow of the Warp has a short pretty short range (and I'm just guessing that most GK powers will have more then 12''), and it will make the GK player think twice about useing those force weapons.
Thats why any good players would target the most threaten thing on the board. Anything that has anti-psy, would be shot at.
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Post by: Limbo
Wouldn't that mean that my other units are free to move about as they please?
23433
Post by: schadenfreude
Therion wrote:What do they need psychic defense from?
Fortitude. Essentially it costs 5 points per Razorback. They can get 17 into 2000 points. Well, they can get a couple more but that would be at the expense of the 51 special weapons.
Henchmen take a force org slot as troops with Cortez. That's going well past 6 troops. 9 can be done by taking 6 troops and 3 elite slots, but after that GK have to buy real squads.
All fortitude does is allow the razorbacks to shoot after being glanced. They explode too easy to get that worried about a dirt cheap version of deamonic possession. AV11=too fragile to be a competitive list.
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Post by: Therion
schadenfreude wrote:Therion wrote:What do they need psychic defense from?
Fortitude. Essentially it costs 5 points per Razorback. They can get 17 into 2000 points. Well, they can get a couple more but that would be at the expense of the 51 special weapons.
Henchmen take a force org slot as troops with Cortez. That's going well past 6 troops. 9 can be done by taking 6 troops and 3 elite slots, but after that GK have to buy real squads.
All fortitude does is allow the razorbacks to shoot after being glanced. They explode too easy to get that worried about a dirt cheap version of deamonic possession. AV11=too fragile to be a competitive list.
Now we know you're playing a different game than everyone else. A non-competitive non-tournament game with house rules like henchmen not being allowed to use their own specific rule which explicitly says they don't take up a force organisation slot. All Coteaz (yes, Coteaz, not Cortez) does regarding the categorisation is makes them troops (as opposed to elites).
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Post by: mrblacksunshine_1978
how units are you going to have? what like 4 and maybe some are anti-pshy within a unit? There going to be to much dakka out there for tyrainds.
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Post by: schadenfreude
Footsloggin wrote:20 ork boys, 10 wounded, Ork boyz squad down to 11.66 models before combat.
30 ork boys, 15 wounded, Ork boyz squad down to 17.5 models before combat.
The emphasis here is BEFORE, meaning the orks recieve no extra attacks for those killed models. Take into account that many squads will not reach GK lines anywhere near to full strength, and that some will be cut down in CC regardless, and Purifiers become one deadly foe, nearly halving your numbers before you even strike.
A KFF would gut storm bolter shots down to being 2/9 lethal, so 18 shots=4 dead orks. 9 bare bone GK=18 shots=12hit=6 wound=4 dead orks. 26 Orks shoot back=17 hits=7.5 wounds=2.5 dead GK. That's just a KFF, it gets worse when dealing with orks in cover, then it takes 60 points worth of GK to drop 6 points of ork.
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Post by: starsdawn
Sephyr wrote:
10x Tactical Marine w/Melta, Multi-Melta, Powerfist SGT w/combi-Melta, Rhino w/EA
270pts
I don't know about the new GK codex because I don't have my hands on it yet, but that load-out is 260 points. And who puts extra armor on Rhinos?
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Post by: Limbo
mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:how units are you going to have? what like 4 and maybe some are anti-pshy within a unit? There going to be to much dakka out there for tyrainds.
I think someone made the point tha GK will suffer from a lack of models on the table, so perhaps that's a way? Tyranids can pump out alot of units if they want too. Sure, some will get slaughterd before they reach the GK, but getting if you're fielding 8 units in a 1000 points game, something is bound to get into CC to tie them up
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Post by: Footsloggin
schadenfreude wrote:Footsloggin wrote:20 ork boys, 10 wounded, Ork boyz squad down to 11.66 models before combat.
30 ork boys, 15 wounded, Ork boyz squad down to 17.5 models before combat.
The emphasis here is BEFORE, meaning the orks recieve no extra attacks for those killed models. Take into account that many squads will not reach GK lines anywhere near to full strength, and that some will be cut down in CC regardless, and Purifiers become one deadly foe, nearly halving your numbers before you even strike.
A KFF would gut storm bolter shots down to being 2/9 lethal, so 18 shots=4 dead orks. 9 bare bone GK=18 shots=12hit=6 wound=4 dead orks. 26 Orks shoot back=17 hits=7.5 wounds=2.5 dead GK. That's just a KFF, it gets worse when dealing with orks in cover, then it takes 60 points worth of GK to drop 6 points of ork.
Ah, but now were getting into two units, and, so, Vindicare, KFF would go down.
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Post by: ChrisWWII
Vindicare shield breaker rounds only work on invul saves. The KFF is a cover save.
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Post by: Footsloggin
I understand that, I'm saying that the vindicare could kill the KFF Mek Boy.
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Post by: schadenfreude
Therion wrote:schadenfreude wrote:Therion wrote:What do they need psychic defense from?
Fortitude. Essentially it costs 5 points per Razorback. They can get 17 into 2000 points. Well, they can get a couple more but that would be at the expense of the 51 special weapons.
Henchmen take a force org slot as troops with Cortez. That's going well past 6 troops. 9 can be done by taking 6 troops and 3 elite slots, but after that GK have to buy real squads.
All fortitude does is allow the razorbacks to shoot after being glanced. They explode too easy to get that worried about a dirt cheap version of deamonic possession. AV11=too fragile to be a competitive list.
Now we know you're playing a different game than everyone else. A non-competitive non-tournament game with house rules like henchmen not being allowed to use their own specific rule which explicitly says they don't take up a force organisation slot. All Coteaz (yes, Coteaz, not Cortez) does regarding the categorisation is makes them troops (as opposed to elites).
Conflicting writing. As elites they don't use force org. HQ special ability says they may be a troops choice and doesn't say they are still force org free. Anything on the HQ would override what is written for the troops. I would check the exact wording before buying an army, and if it looks anywhere near close enough to be FAQ'd I wouldn't buy the army. If the all Henchmen army is a viable army I'll see your 17 razobacks and raise you 33 troops choices containing 99 multi melta servitors for 990 points followed by 100 more troop choices containing 150 warriors armed with boltguns for 450 more points. Half of the servitors will servolock every turn, but there will not be a single vehicle on the table by the end of turn 3, and 300 rapid fire bolt gun shots from the warriors should mop up any surviving infantry. Best of all I won't have a target on the table besides my HQ that's costs more than 30 points.
If it's at all open to debate it's open for a FAQ. Do you really think GW is going to FAQ on the side of an army that has 99 melta guns, 150 bolt guns, and 133 MSU troop choices for 1500+ the HQ?
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Post by: Magister187
Your maths are off, but you are in a sense accurate. The alternative to them not being limited is pure madness, so by default they must be limited.
23433
Post by: schadenfreude
Footsloggin wrote:schadenfreude wrote:Footsloggin wrote:20 ork boys, 10 wounded, Ork boyz squad down to 11.66 models before combat.
30 ork boys, 15 wounded, Ork boyz squad down to 17.5 models before combat.
The emphasis here is BEFORE, meaning the orks recieve no extra attacks for those killed models. Take into account that many squads will not reach GK lines anywhere near to full strength, and that some will be cut down in CC regardless, and Purifiers become one deadly foe, nearly halving your numbers before you even strike.
A KFF would gut storm bolter shots down to being 2/9 lethal, so 18 shots=4 dead orks. 9 bare bone GK=18 shots=12hit=6 wound=4 dead orks. 26 Orks shoot back=17 hits=7.5 wounds=2.5 dead GK. That's just a KFF, it gets worse when dealing with orks in cover, then it takes 60 points worth of GK to drop 6 points of ork.
Ah, but now were getting into two units, and, so, Vindicare, KFF would go down.
Vindicare has nothing more than 2 wounds, a 4+ invo, a +1 to cover save, and 6+ FNP. Anybody can shoot directly at him now.
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Post by: Sephyr
starsdawn wrote:Sephyr wrote:
10x Tactical Marine w/Melta, Multi-Melta, Powerfist SGT w/combi-Melta, Rhino w/EA
270pts
I don't know about the new GK codex because I don't have my hands on it yet, but that load-out is 260 points. And who puts extra armor on Rhinos?
No one I know! I was just trying to keep it close to the GK rhino that has a similar power.
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Post by: schadenfreude
Magister187 wrote:Your maths are off, but you are in a sense accurate. The alternative to them not being limited is pure madness, so by default they must be limited.
3 Servitors costs 30 points
99 Servitors costs 990 points split into 33 groups of 3.
Warriors cost 5 points with a botgun.
150 of them costs 750 points ooops my math was off
99 of them costs 145 points in 33 groups of 3.
Cortez as I shall mockingly call him until the issue gets FAQ'd +99 servitors + 99 boltgun warriors<1750 points
That's not madness, it's pure uncut madness.
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Post by: Therion
Anything on the HQ would override what is written for the troops.
Come on. You're making stuff up now  What exactly is overriding what? Coteaz' special rules are very specific. Coteaz makes henchmen no longer limited to the amount of Inquisitors. Coteaz makes Henchmen troops. Nothing else changes. Henchmen not taking a force organisation slot is in their own rules and doesn't have anything to do with Inquisitors, being elites or troops, special characters or mine or your opinion.
Whether it's slowed in our opinion or not is also completely irrelevant. It isn't the first time and it certainly isn't the last.
You're correct in that C: GK need a FAQ though. As per 40K rules the Dreadknight DCCW's don't even work for the Dreadknight because it's not a walker.
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Post by: Footsloggin
schadenfreude wrote:Footsloggin wrote:schadenfreude wrote:Footsloggin wrote:20 ork boys, 10 wounded, Ork boyz squad down to 11.66 models before combat.
30 ork boys, 15 wounded, Ork boyz squad down to 17.5 models before combat.
The emphasis here is BEFORE, meaning the orks recieve no extra attacks for those killed models. Take into account that many squads will not reach GK lines anywhere near to full strength, and that some will be cut down in CC regardless, and Purifiers become one deadly foe, nearly halving your numbers before you even strike.
A KFF would gut storm bolter shots down to being 2/9 lethal, so 18 shots=4 dead orks. 9 bare bone GK=18 shots=12hit=6 wound=4 dead orks. 26 Orks shoot back=17 hits=7.5 wounds=2.5 dead GK. That's just a KFF, it gets worse when dealing with orks in cover, then it takes 60 points worth of GK to drop 6 points of ork.
Ah, but now were getting into two units, and, so, Vindicare, KFF would go down.
Vindicare has nothing more than 2 wounds, a 4+ invo, a +1 to cover save, and 6+ FNP. Anybody can shoot directly at him now.
What would the statistics for killing the KFF mek be?
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Post by: Magister187
Well, you would need to get him out of his battlewagon first. Assuming that was done.
35/36 chance of hitting, 1/2 chance of wounding, 1/3 chance of him saving.
About a 32% chance, assuming he only had KFF cover (more likely 25% chance from real cover).
36588
Post by: Footsloggin
Hmm, guess the Vindicare really is only great for popping armor...
34172
Post by: Magister187
Well, its because he is 2 wounds. If you are trying to snipe 1 wound models, you can use the Hellfire shot and its better odds. But yes, Armour popping is now what he does best.
27848
Post by: ChrisWWII
Note, that reading a physical copy of the Grey Knights codex, the entry for Coteaz says that me makes Inquisitorial Henchmen Troops. Not count as Troops, they are Troops, and they are free from the usual limitations of 2 per Inqusitor.
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Post by: Therion
ChrisWWII wrote:Note, that reading a physical copy of the Grey Knights codex, the entry for Coteaz says that me makes Inquisitorial Henchmen Troops. Not count as Troops, they are Troops, and they are free from the usual limitations of 2 per Inqusitor.
There's no difference that's why noone paid any attention to that. Just because something is troops doesn't mean that another entirely separate special rule all of a sudden disappears.
19501
Post by: doomsday
i collect DE, i would say, not to sound to cocky, they would pose more of a threat than any other army, if used correctly
E.G
1 squad in my army i would use would be a trueborn squad armed with just splinter weapons and haywire grenades mounted in a raider acompanied by duke sliscus, why, first off poisened weapons, no matter how tough something is a poisened weapon will always hit, duke sliscus would amp up the wounding from a 4+ to a 3+(anything with a high toughness,dreadknight, and charecters), second, trueborn can be upgraded with 2 splinter cannons which can be fired one of two ways assault 4 or heavy 6 (large squads) and the rest upgraded with shard carbines which are assault 3, so you looking at 27 shots just from the shard carbines (taking into account that there are only 9 trueborn in the squad and duke sliscus, the raider has a transport capacity of 10) so your looking at least 35 shots from 1 squad, third, mounted in a raider, dark lance, with the low orbit raid rule from sliscus deep strike, envenomed blades and torment grenades means anyone who rolls a 1 in cc will get a s4 hit and anyone within 6" will get -1ld and flicker field 5+invl save, thats one squad that could do a lot of dammage on its own,
another squad of mine is a strictly cc squad which again would cause a lot of dammage to a gk army, i consists of urien rakarth and, at the moment 5 grotesques, why, because grotesques are s5, with rakarth they are booted to s6 stronger than your average GK, one armed with a scissorhand, wounds on a 3+ and adds +1a, urien may not be the strongest, but he wounds on a 3+, a squad enough to take on any GK squad and dish out some pain
this is just a coupl of my own tactics, but i know that some of you may pick faults with it but thats fine, and ideas on how to make these squads better would be very helpful, but there is one DE rule that makes them more deadly than anyother army and the perfect choice for taking down GK, the power from pain rule, everyone in the army gets it, the feel no pain rule, furious charge and fearless, any army that can have that for everyone in there army is more than enough to take on the GK (again only my opinion)
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Post by: Doctor Optimal
schadenfreude wrote:Magister187 wrote:Your maths are off, but you are in a sense accurate. The alternative to them not being limited is pure madness, so by default they must be limited.
3 Servitors costs 30 points
99 Servitors costs 990 points split into 33 groups of 3.
Warriors cost 5 points with a botgun.
150 of them costs 750 points ooops my math was off
99 of them costs 145 points in 33 groups of 3.
Cortez as I shall mockingly call him until the issue gets FAQ'd +99 servitors + 99 boltgun warriors<1750 points
That's not madness, it's pure uncut madness.
I got 99 servies but an =I= ain't one?
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Post by: schadenfreude
ChrisWWII wrote:Note, that reading a physical copy of the Grey Knights codex, the entry for Coteaz says that me makes Inquisitorial Henchmen Troops. Not count as Troops, they are Troops, and they are free from the usual limitations of 2 per Inqusitor.
Without him they are counts as elites but they dont' take a force org slot. If he makes them troops and says nothing more it leaves the wording in a quagmire.
What's the point cost on Cotaez? Need to work out a Ard boys list to prove a point.
HQ=200ish?
120 Sevitors in 40 squads of 3= 120 multi meltas=1200 points
210 Warrior henchmen in 70 squads of 3=210 bolt guns=1050 points
I can cut a few points if Cortez is over 250 points, or add if he is under.
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Post by: Footsloggin
Think more along the lines of HQ: 100ish...
4884
Post by: Therion
Servitors are awful though. 50% chance to not do anything every turn, BS3, junk armour save and otherwise bad stats. The only good thing with lists like that is that there's 100+ scoring units running towards objectives. Just take Warrior Acolytes with a mix of meltas, plasmas and flamers and go for it.
Coteaz costs 100 points.
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Post by: Doctor Optimal
What does a list like that do to kill points?
(Or is that not a thing for Hard Boys?)
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Post by: Magister187
Table things under a wave of cheap meltas.
20963
Post by: Kommissar Kel
Therion wrote:ChrisWWII wrote:Note, that reading a physical copy of the Grey Knights codex, the entry for Coteaz says that me makes Inquisitorial Henchmen Troops. Not count as Troops, they are Troops, and they are free from the usual limitations of 2 per Inqusitor.
There's no difference that's why noone paid any attention to that. Just because something is troops doesn't mean that another entirely separate special rule all of a sudden disappears.
Never mind i was thinking you were saying they were elites as well as troops(optionable). I actually agree with Therion: Coteaz Changes the 2 Specific bitz; the lack of Selection filling is an entirely different sentence to the one that Coteaz changes. 2 different rules.
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Post by: Therion
Yes they are troops. Because of being troops they are now scoring units. Because of being troops they might be deployed in a certain order in some tournament scenarios. Do they use up one of the six slots on the force organisation chart? No. Why? Because their special rules say so. One thing that has nothing to do with the other. This has been discussed to death in atleast 10 threads both here and on Warseer and there's nothing further to say. It's cut and cry that they don't take any slots as written. If and when GW releases a FAQ/errata about it is anyone's guess. Tournament organisers are already free to house rule and decide anything in any way they see fit.
20963
Post by: Kommissar Kel
Sorry i was editing while you were posting; please see my above, edited post.
27848
Post by: ChrisWWII
Specific overules General, so the General Rule here is that 'Inquisitorial Henchmen do not take up slots', the more specific rule here is that 'Coteaz makes Henchmen troops', since Coteaz's rule is more specific, it overules the General rule that Henchmen do not take up slots. With Coteaz, they are Troops choice, and as such you can take a max of 6.
24442
Post by: lindsay40k
As a Nid player with a penchant for Behemoth Nidzilla lists, the threat of army-wide Force Weapons - even if Shadow will make them forget to finish half their spells - has me very, very worried.
Likewise, the threat of losing half a unit before the assault even begins has my shelf full of unpainted Hormagaunts looking set to remain buried for some time. Rather, the Devilgaunt swarm is looking a little more viable. I've had better fortune with weight of shot than Warp Blasts in forcing MEQs to fail saves.
I'm finding myself considering what to do with my Elite slot that isn't Zoanthropes or Hive Guard.
Ymgarl Genestealers are still unlikely to kill their points worth; they've got a fair crack at wiping out a Term unit (which with Halberds will cripple the Ymgarls in return), which may yield an in-game advantage beyond the points accountancy, but there's too many 'if's and 'maybe's there.
Venomthropes might be worth a look in. Cover to weather the Psybolts, Dangerous Terrain to endanger Incinerator squads? That's in effect inflicting auto Str0 Rending on every member of a squad that charges. Deathleaper might also be an interesting choice, perhaps stymie one of these godlike IC's psypowers. Doomie is out of it, she needs a Spod to make much impact - and even if she did get past the WQ screen, all that S5 small arms is exactly the sort of thing that wipes her out.
If they want to get into a medium range firefight, let's see what a bunch of Screamer Killers with LW Prime can do - with a bunch of Tervigons to shotgun through Onslaught.
I think a Swarmlord with LW Guards is going to be en vogue to act as a Paladin deterrent.
So, I think I might get finishing the models I need for that Termagant Farm list with Swarmlord and Behemoth brood I've been promising myself this past year...
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Post by: Therion
ChrisWWII wrote:Specific overules General, so the General Rule here is that 'Inquisitorial Henchmen do not take up slots', the more specific rule here is that 'Coteaz makes Henchmen troops', since Coteaz's rule is more specific, it overules the General rule that Henchmen do not take up slots. With Coteaz, they are Troops choice, and as such you can take a max of 6.
No the general rule being overriden by Coteaz is 'Inquisitorial Henchmen are elites'.
27848
Post by: ChrisWWII
It's both. It makes Inquisitorial Henchmen 'Troops', and has no other caveats. In the absence of other caveats, you are limited to 6 Troops choices in a standard FOC.
23433
Post by: schadenfreude
Therion wrote:ChrisWWII wrote:Specific overules General, so the General Rule here is that 'Inquisitorial Henchmen do not take up slots', the more specific rule here is that 'Coteaz makes Henchmen troops', since Coteaz's rule is more specific, it overules the General rule that Henchmen do not take up slots. With Coteaz, they are Troops choice, and as such you can take a max of 6.
No the general rule being overriden by Coteaz is 'Inquisitorial Henchmen are elites'.
Ard boys
Coteaz 100 points
120 MM Servitors in 40 squads=1200 points
240 bolt gun henchmen in 40 squads=1200 points
2,500 on the dot.
Sure half the servitors will lock per turn, but the list should still get off 60 BS3 MM shots/turn for 30 MM hits per turn.
Everything is a scoring unit but Coteaz.
20963
Post by: Kommissar Kel
Chris there are 2 Specific Rules inherent to the Henchmen:
That they can only be taken 1/Inquisitor.
That they do not take up a Slot.
There are 2 Specific Rules from Coteaz:
Henchman no longer require inquisitors.
Henchman are now troops.
The Lack of Slot filling is not discussed in Coteaz's special rule; the lack of Slot Filling is not specific to Elite.
Assuming that the Henchman availability Rule was not changed in the print copy it says this: "This unit does not use up a Force organization Slot."
Now had that said: "This unit does not use up an Elite Slot", you would be correct; but it does not. by virtue of being henchmen they do not use up Slots of any sort.
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Post by: ChrisWWII
Well if that isn't the cheesiest piece of gak...
I guess you're right, but I still think it's ridiculous. I will cry if our local TFG decided to do infinite Chimera/Rhino/Razorback spam.
20963
Post by: Kommissar Kel
Just bring Anti-tank weapons and Thank him for the free Kill points
Its not like the infinite Transport list is going to have many models in each of those transports anyways; probably 3 models/transport, half of whom are likely to die in any Explosion results, the remainder of which with die to the smallest of arms fire.
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Post by: Doctor Optimal
So with Cortez, the first 6 hench units fill troop slots (which means they score), the 7th+ can be taken as non-slot-filling elites (but they can't score and are deployed like Elites), right?
8248
Post by: imweasel
Doctor Optimal wrote:So with Cortez, the first 6 hench units fill troop slots (which means they score), the 7th+ can be taken as non-slot-filling elites (but they can't score and are deployed like Elites), right?
From what people are saying is they don't take troop slots and they all count as troops.
27848
Post by: ChrisWWII
Doctor Optimal wrote:So with Cortez, the first 6 hench units fill troop slots (which means they score), the 7th+ can be taken as non-slot-filling elites (but they can't score and are deployed like Elites), right?
RAW, with Coteaz you can take unlimited numbers of Henchmen squads as troops.
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Post by: Kingsley
If you think people are actually going to allow 17 Razorback/Chimera armies, you're crazy.
23395
Post by: Gavo
Fetterkey wrote:If you think people are actually going to allow 17 Razorback/Chimera armies, you're crazy.
Because IG totally can't field 17 chimeras
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Post by: Doctor Optimal
I'm not a YMDC guy, but "are Troops choices" would seem to mean that they take up a choice-slot, modifying their normal status of not taking up a choice-slot. I read "are not limited by the number of Inquisitors in your army" to mean that you can take an unlimited number [modifying their usual limitation of only being able to take as many as you have Inquisitors], but "are troops choices" means only the first 6 are troops, the 7th+ are elites choices but don't fill up a slot (so can't be troops, so can't claim objectives). Like I said, I'm not a YMDC guy, and if the enemy wants to hand me arbitrarily large numbers of killpoints in the form of MSUs, good for them? By the way, is "book not even on sale yet, but already needing an FAQ to avoid abuse" a new record for GW?
19917
Post by: Mr. DK
How is the Grey Knights shooting? I mean, do they have a lot of low AP guns avaliable, besides henchmen? If not armies with FnP will still be very effective and will still outnumber the GKs.
20963
Post by: Kommissar Kel
Chris and I just went over this: 8 posts up from yours is why you are wrong; The not taking up slots is an inherent rule to henchmen, and is not altered by Coteaz for a couple reasons(found in that post).
With Coteaz; you can get at Max 27 Chimeras(Or 29 Razorbacks with Psybolt ammunition), with Each carrying 3 Acolytes with Boltguns @ 2000 points(You actually have 10 points left to upgrade *something*; 15 for the razorbacks)
You can get 34 bolter Acolytes in Rhinos, with 30 points left for Upgrades(but why would you?)
6531
Post by: notabot187
Mr. DK wrote:How is the Grey Knights shooting? I mean, do they have a lot of low AP guns avaliable, besides henchmen? If not armies with FnP will still be very effective and will still outnumber the GKs.
Actual GK shooting is pretty limited to AP 4-5 range. This doesn't matter because A: they get a bunch of it, can upgrade autocannons to S8 (double strength = ID )and psycannons are rending, and B: they are all armed with force weapons, which are at the very least PWs, and can also Instant death anything that can be instant deathed. FNP doesn't matter against rends or PWs, and doesn't work against ID either. Most FnP units will be assault units, and they won't be getting their FnP where they need it. GKs are pretty decent in CC, force weapons do that. They only will suffer against high I units that either have a great invul, or can spam enough attacks to wipe the GKs so they don't get hit. Most the units that have these qualities are weak against bolter and pyscannon fire.
FNP units are usually more expensive than GKs ( DE pain tokens get around this, but whatever). Hell, nobs can be more expensive than a paladin squad (55 pts base, with 2 wounds termie armor, and FNP as an option). Tradition FNP armies/units aren't effective than GKs, and won't even outnumber too often (and when they do, they are weedy like DE are).
19917
Post by: Mr. DK
Oh wow I didn't know psycannons where rending.
To the OP: How about a BA army? str 8 auto cannons do not ignore the 3+ save, and unless GK are I5 they will not strike back simantaneously to FC assaults. Missile spam can stop dreadnaughts, and plasma guns should take down Dreadknights. Also, mobility should keep them out of assaults when needed, and death company might pay off by sheer number or re-rolling attacks (and possible wounds).
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Post by: Kroot Loops
Mr. DK wrote:Oh wow I didn't know psycannons where rending.
To the OP: How about a BA army? str 8 auto cannons do not ignore the 3+ save, and unless GK are I5 they will not strike back simantaneously to FC assaults. Missile spam can stop dreadnaughts, and plasma guns should take down Dreadknights. Also, mobility should keep them out of assaults when needed, and death company might pay off by sheer number or re-rolling attacks (and possible wounds).
Halberds make GK I6, and since they are power weapons, that's problematic for BA
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Post by: Doctor Optimal
Kommissar Kel wrote:Chris and I just went over this: 8 posts up from yours is why you are wrong; The not taking up slots is an inherent rule to henchmen, and is not altered by Coteaz for a couple reasons(found in that post).
With Coteaz; you can get at Max 27 Chimeras(Or 29 Razorbacks with Psybolt ammunition), with Each carrying 3 Acolytes with Boltguns @ 2000 points(You actually have 10 points left to upgrade *something*; 15 for the razorbacks)
You can get 34 bolter Acolytes in Rhinos, with 30 points left for Upgrades(but why would you?)
Yes, I saw that. I don't think it's correct though because "Are troops choices" means just that, that they are (now) troops choices (where they weren't earlier). Honestly not really interested in pushing the point much further (especially not with someone who would put forward such an arrogant, WAAC line of argumentation) because as an Ork player I'm not going to play against GKs unless they can tell me a *really* good story about why the most elite of the most elite are gunning for an Ork pirate. Just say no to playing powergaming munchkins, I guess?
6531
Post by: notabot187
Mr. DK wrote:Oh wow I didn't know psycannons where rending.
To the OP: How about a BA army? str 8 auto cannons do not ignore the 3+ save, and unless GK are I5 they will not strike back simantaneously to FC assaults. Missile spam can stop dreadnaughts, and plasma guns should take down Dreadknights. Also, mobility should keep them out of assaults when needed, and death company might pay off by sheer number or re-rolling attacks (and possible wounds).
Well, GKs can upgrade I, force halberds IIRC, on strike squads it is a 5 pt per model upgrade. Probably not worth it though. The regular sword works fine. No doubt that DC can be a problem, but they cost a ton, base cost is same as basic PAGK (more attacks, but less gear and not pyskers with decent powers), and upgrades can spike them past GKT quite easily. Automatically Appended Next Post: Doctor Optimal wrote:Kommissar Kel wrote:Chris and I just went over this: 8 posts up from yours is why you are wrong; The not taking up slots is an inherent rule to henchmen, and is not altered by Coteaz for a couple reasons(found in that post).
With Coteaz; you can get at Max 27 Chimeras(Or 29 Razorbacks with Psybolt ammunition), with Each carrying 3 Acolytes with Boltguns @ 2000 points(You actually have 10 points left to upgrade *something*; 15 for the razorbacks)
You can get 34 bolter Acolytes in Rhinos, with 30 points left for Upgrades(but why would you?)
Yes, I saw that. I don't think it's correct though because "Are troops choices" means just that, that they are (now) troops choices (where they weren't earlier).
Honestly not really interested in pushing the point much further (especially not with someone who would put forward such an arrogant, WAAC line of argumentation) because as an Ork player I'm not going to play against GKs unless they can tell me a *really* good story about why the most elite of the most elite are gunning for an Ork pirate.
Just say no to playing powergaming munchkins, I guess?
Many people here like to play in events where your opponents aren't of your choosing, and if the army is legal, then you can play it. This type of argument isn't meant for narrative or casual players, which can be picky about what is and isn't allowed. Being elitist and calling people names doesn't contribute anything.
My opinion on the matter: It seems like you can do it, but I would advice cation... GW is likely to FAQ this, and that is an awful lot of money to dump into an army that is at the whims of the FAQ (ask nid players what they think abou this...) Also it isn't likely to make many friends, considering the social nature of a hobby like this... Having no opponents to play against at the FLGS or your basement is a lonely way to play.
20963
Post by: Kommissar Kel
Doctor Optimal wrote:Honestly not really interested in pushing the point much further (especially not with someone who would put forward such an arrogant, WAAC line of argumentation) because as an Ork player I'm not going to play against GKs unless they can tell me a *really* good story about why the most elite of the most elite are gunning for an Ork pirate.
Just say no to playing powergaming munchkins, I guess?
I take offense to this; knowing the rules(and how rules interact) is now arrogant WWAC powergaming and munchkining?
I never said I would do it; I said the rules supported it, I also presented just how many of the transports in question could possibly be taken in a 2000 point list, that list is quite weak, has 0 anti armor and units that would fold faster than some sort of high-speed automatic folding device.
I actually would Take Coteaz and all henchmen; but only as a Narrative counts-as army representing a rogue trader and his personal forces(and probably not necessarily have the strongest choices in the Henchmen units).
You can say they are troops now so they fill Force slots all you want; the rules say otherwise: Coteaz does not in any way remove or alter the sentence "This unit does not use up a Force organization Slot." Therefore they continue to not use up a force organization slot.
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Post by: Doctor Optimal
notabot187 wrote:
Many people here like to play in events where your opponents aren't of your choosing, and if the army is legal, then you can play it. This type of argument isn't meant for narrative or casual players, which can be picky about what is and isn't allowed. Being elitist and calling people names doesn't contribute anything.
My opinion on the matter: It seems like you can do it, but I would advice cation... GW is likely to FAQ this, and that is an awful lot of money to dump into an army that is at the whims of the FAQ (ask nid players what they think abou this...) Also it isn't likely to make many friends, considering the social nature of a hobby like this... Having no opponents to play against at the FLGS or your basement is a lonely way to play.
I will agree that the GK codex certainly does seem "written with tournaments in mind" in every possible pejorative sense of that phrase. As someone in the Other Place said today, the old DH/ WH codices had a "Why would Daemonhunters/Witchhunters fight x army?" section, and playing WH/ DH would give you access to (honestly, pretty average stat-wise, but fluffy as hell) Troop and HQ choices. It's unfortunate that GW's former goal of collaborative play seems to have been pretty well replaced with adversarial play, Jervis's "Beer and pretzel" protestations to the contrary. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kommissar Kel wrote:
I take offense to this; knowing the rules(and how rules interact) is now arrogant WWAC powergaming and munchkining?
See what I mean?
19917
Post by: Mr. DK
Kroot Loops wrote:Mr. DK wrote:Oh wow I didn't know psycannons where rending.
To the OP: How about a BA army? str 8 auto cannons do not ignore the 3+ save, and unless GK are I5 they will not strike back simantaneously to FC assaults. Missile spam can stop dreadnaughts, and plasma guns should take down Dreadknights. Also, mobility should keep them out of assaults when needed, and death company might pay off by sheer number or re-rolling attacks (and possible wounds).
Halberds make GK I6, and since they are power weapons, that's problematic for BA
Are they cheap and wide spread? ... great...
6531
Post by: notabot187
Beer and pretzel gaming is still adversarial when there is a winner and loser. Trying to win make the game more fun for both players. Being a goldfish (magic the gathering term for a player that doesn't fight back) isn't fun for either.
Also, isn't this game getting a bit too expensive for "beer and pretzel gaming"? I normally associate that with much cheaper and less complicated games. Also the game for some reason is being marketed to age groups that aren't even legal to drink... and teenagers by nature are pretty competitive after all, at least in the US. Automatically Appended Next Post: Mr. DK wrote:Kroot Loops wrote:Mr. DK wrote:Oh wow I didn't know psycannons where rending.
To the OP: How about a BA army? str 8 auto cannons do not ignore the 3+ save, and unless GK are I5 they will not strike back simantaneously to FC assaults. Missile spam can stop dreadnaughts, and plasma guns should take down Dreadknights. Also, mobility should keep them out of assaults when needed, and death company might pay off by sheer number or re-rolling attacks (and possible wounds).
Halberds make GK I6, and since they are power weapons, that's problematic for BA
Are they cheap and wide spread? ... great...
They are 5 pts each on basic troops, but honestly probably won't be that widespread, maybe a couple in each unit points allowing. Certainly not full squads of them.
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Post by: Surtur
Coteaz allows you to take more than 1 squad of henchies per inquisitor?
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Post by: Fafnir
Grey Knight Codex, page 86 wrote:
Inquisitorial Henchmen warbands are Troops choices in an army that includes Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz, and are not limited by the number of Inquisitors in your army
Grey Knight Codex, page 90 wrote:
For each Inquisitor in your army, you may also include a unit of 3-12 henchmen, chosen in any combination from those shown. This unit does not use up a force orginization slot.
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Post by: ruminator
Kommissar Kel wrote:Doctor Optimal wrote:Honestly not really interested in pushing the point much further (especially not with someone who would put forward such an arrogant, WAAC line of argumentation) because as an Ork player I'm not going to play against GKs unless they can tell me a *really* good story about why the most elite of the most elite are gunning for an Ork pirate.
Just say no to playing powergaming munchkins, I guess?
I take offense to this; knowing the rules(and how rules interact) is now arrogant WWAC powergaming and munchkining?
I never said I would do it; I said the rules supported it, I also presented just how many of the transports in question could possibly be taken in a 2000 point list, that list is quite weak, has 0 anti armor and units that would fold faster than some sort of high-speed automatic folding device.
I actually would Take Coteaz and all henchmen; but only as a Narrative counts-as army representing a rogue trader and his personal forces(and probably not necessarily have the strongest choices in the Henchmen units).
You can say they are troops now so they fill Force slots all you want; the rules say otherwise: Coteaz does not in any way remove or alter the sentence "This unit does not use up a Force organization Slot." Therefore they continue to not use up a force organization slot.
I think this is the balance. GK player therefore still needs to take two troop choices. Presuming these are kitted out properly there will be limited points left for the chimera spam.
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Post by: Fafnir
Kommissar Kel wrote:Doctor Optimal wrote:Honestly not really interested in pushing the point much further (especially not with someone who would put forward such an arrogant, WAAC line of argumentation) because as an Ork player I'm not going to play against GKs unless they can tell me a *really* good story about why the most elite of the most elite are gunning for an Ork pirate.
Just say no to playing powergaming munchkins, I guess?
I take offense to this; knowing the rules(and how rules interact) is now arrogant WWAC powergaming and munchkining?
Some people do get offended when you have opinions about the game. I know my current club hates me because I know how the rules interact.
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Post by: jcd386
So...I'm amazed that anyone can honestly think you can take unlimited henchmen squads and don't expect it to be FAQ'd in favor of the 6 henchmen argument.
It is so obvious that RAI (and RAW its sort of a toss up) you can only take 6.
Anything else would be so slowed and broken that its not even funny.
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Post by: Kommissar Kel
ruminator wrote:I think this is the balance. GK player therefore still needs to take two troop choices. Presuming these are kitted out properly there will be limited points left for the chimera spam.
This is another often debated point and in a lot of the rumor threads and discussions on the play-test dex I pointed out that we do not currently have an answer.
For my Coteaz-as-rogue trader list i was planning on making 2 diferent lists; 1 with 2 min Strike squads, both differently kitted(as assigned SM adjuncts; likely from 1-2 different Chapters); and 1 with just henchmen. both lists would be mostly made oup of Acolytes with different Wargear in the henchmen squads with maybe 1-4 more specialized members/squad(And acolyte gear reflecting an overall "purpose" to that squad). Between warrior-kit, special members of each unit, each units Ride, and the Strike squads in the one list; I am not terribly likely to have more than 6 troop choices and my HQ, of course there will be wasted points, but I do that often in my Fluffy armies(assign tasks for units, kitting them appropriately, then having large amounts of those points wasted as I rarely encounter every threat the units are assigned to counter in the same game).
I also just wanted to point out once again that Chimera spam is not as scary as everyone is making it out to be. Sure 6-8 Chimera with well-kitted contents and maybe a few upgrades/Chimera can be scary; but at that point Coteaz allowing infinite Henchman is a moot point anyways.
Depending on What Truesilver armor & Warp stabilization field actually do, I don't expect we will see Chimera that cost more than 70-81 points apiece. Jokero will not often be seen with more than 2/unit(maybe 3), 4 limits the advantages available, 5 Locks you in at Having either a 5+ invul, or infinite Rolling, 6+ means that you never start a game you just Roll for what the Jokero give your unit forever.
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Post by: Therion
Depending on What Truesilver armor & Warp stabilization field actually do
Truesilver armor causes damage to Daemons in close combat with the vehicle and Warp Stabilization Field allows the vehicle to be summoned with The Summoning psychic power (otherwise it can't affect vehicles).
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Post by: Kommissar Kel
Right, So bare-bones, maybe with Storm bolter and Seachlight. 55-61 points.
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Post by: Chimera_Calvin
@ Kommisar Kel - why is this a point for debate? Henchmen do not take up a slot in the force org chart.
Ergo as per RAW if they cannot take up a slot in the force org chart there is no way they could be counted as taking the compulsary slot in that same chart. You would have to take Coteaz + 2 Troops before you start with the infinite henchmen shennanigans.
That being said, its still broken as all get up and if not FAQ'd out the only limiting factor will be people's budget and/or converting skill for getting hold of that many Bolter-equipped guardsmen and MM Servitors
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Post by: Warboss Gutrip
I personally think Eldar will see a rise in competitive use, simply due to Codex: Grey Knights being full of psykers.
15pts for Runes of Warding that makes you perils if you roll over twelve, with unlimited range?
Sweet.
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Post by: lindsay40k
It seems to be a decided point that RAW WAAC guy can presently throw a couple of grand at GW for a broken beyond belief mid-range leafblower that fills the table with Razorbacks and scoring Melta, only to find the whole lot FAQ'd onto eBay six months down the line. Can we move on?
I've been ruminating on a similar idea to Kel; in my case, and Ordo Xenos & Ad Mech army using a Magos as Cortez (that's what my Dad calls him, and he should know) some other Inq as Kryptman, cybernetic Tyranid servitors as Daemonhosts and Ripley in Loader as a Dreadknight :3
To get back to the central point though, I think my mainline army's painting agenda will be placing S8, Rending, Plasma and Devourers on a higher priority.
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Post by: odorofdeath
I'm not sure what all the fuss is about with these Henchmen shenanigans. I didn't really get to read much of the GK codex, but as a guard player, I can tell you that shoving a bunch of low save GEQ's down the enemies throat doesn't work unless they have *amazing* weapons, which they don't, or they're Stubborn, which they can't be. And if they're mechanized, then that'll be a hell of a parking lot. Rhinos and Chimmys aren't hard to kill.
The old GKs where able to ignore the FOC chart and nothing came of that. yes, bad codex, but thats quite an advantage.
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Post by: Kingsley
notabot187 wrote:Mr. DK wrote:Kroot Loops wrote:Mr. DK wrote:Oh wow I didn't know psycannons where rending.
To the OP: How about a BA army? str 8 auto cannons do not ignore the 3+ save, and unless GK are I5 they will not strike back simantaneously to FC assaults. Missile spam can stop dreadnaughts, and plasma guns should take down Dreadknights. Also, mobility should keep them out of assaults when needed, and death company might pay off by sheer number or re-rolling attacks (and possible wounds).
Halberds make GK I6, and since they are power weapons, that's problematic for BA
Are they cheap and wide spread? ... great...
They are 5 pts each on basic troops, but honestly probably won't be that widespread, maybe a couple in each unit points allowing. Certainly not full squads of them.
Expect to see Purifier squads toting halberds on every or almost every model. They will be a basic upgrade, since Purifiers get them at a discount and have 2 attacks base. Massed I6 force weapon attacks is something very few units want to go near, and when coupled with the Cleansing Flame ability, Purifiers are not going to be a unit you want to mess with in close assault.
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Post by: Kommissar Kel
Chimera_Calvin wrote:@ Kommisar Kel - why is this a point for debate? Henchmen do not take up a slot in the force org chart.
Ergo as per RAW if they cannot take up a slot in the force org chart there is no way they could be counted as taking the compulsary slot in that same chart. You would have to take Coteaz + 2 Troops before you start with the infinite henchmen shennanigans.
That being said, its still broken as all get up and if not FAQ'd out the only limiting factor will be people's budget and/or converting skill for getting hold of that many Bolter-equipped guardsmen and MM Servitors
Neither does the Emperors Champion Take up an HQ slot, yet he can be your 1 mandatory HQ.
For all those that feel the infinite Henchmen is OP, I say this:
Stop.
Take a deep breath.
Think about it.
63 3-Servitor MM Henchmen units means most of them(around half) will suffer from mindlock, and be useless; worse mindlock effects the Whole unit, not just the servitors.
An army comprised entirely of Cheap transports and Bolter armed acolytes cannot deal with AV over 12 at all and will have some difficulty with AV 11-12.
CSM have been able to do it since 4th edition with Summoned Daemons; Are you afraid of CSM? Do they Win every game and every tourney?
Henchman points are going to start adding up very fast; especially in the power "competitive" builds.
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Post by: Grundz
notabot187 wrote:
They are 5 pts each on basic troops, but honestly probably won't be that widespread, maybe a couple in each unit points allowing. Certainly not full squads of them.
I see this as being normal for all upgrades, 2 or 3 units in each squad with swords, maybe one or two with "claws" a halbard or two, this allows you to stack up plasma or melta wounds on single models more easily than with normal marines, giving an extra layer of resilience.
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Post by: Cerebrium
Said it once, say it again. I don't care if it is unlimited, I'm taking 6 units of henchmen max. I doubt I'll take even that, with all the strike squad and troopinator goodness.
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Post by: An0maly1
From a tau standpoint. The only reasonable defense would be a staggered defense. Have each squad 12 inches from another, the grey knights either split up or all focus on one squad. If they all focus on one then the tau army surrounds and pew pew pews their asses back to the golden throne.
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Post by: Fafnir
Which won't work with interceptors or holy shunting dreadknights.
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Post by: ArtfcllyFlvrd
Kommissar Kel wrote:Neither does the Emperors Champion Take up an HQ slot, yet he can be your 1 mandatory HQ.
I believe he was specifically FAQ'd that way. Most things that don't take up FOC slot don't count towards your compulsary slots.
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Post by: Fafnir
According to the INAT FAQ, they do. And I don't believe that the GW FAQs rule on it either way.
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Post by: ArtfcllyFlvrd
The current GW FAQ for Black Templars says he does, I can't find anything in the INAT or GW FAQ that says so either way for summoned daemons
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Post by: Fafnir
INAT FAQ, page 69 wrote:
IG.93A.01/IG.93B.01 – Q: Can Ministorum Priests or
Techpriest Enginseers be taken as the one mandatory
HQ choice in an Imperial Guard army?
A: Yes they can [clarification].
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Post by: ArtfcllyFlvrd
But that is just for guard. I agree it is FAQ'd that way lot now, but as far as I can tell they haven't done it for CSM. Am I missing something in the CSM book that says they cannot count as the minimum troops?
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Post by: Kommissar Kel
Artificial: the BT FAQ does not state a BT-specific reason, just that he is an HQ choice and therefore fills the Slot; this is why the INAT made the same ruling on Priests/Techpreists: an extension on the BT ruling. INAT will likely make the same ruling on GK Coteaz henchmen, whether GW does or not. BT FAQ states: Q. Can I field the Emperorʼs Champion as my one
compulsory HQ choice and no other HQs in the army?
(p31)
A. Yes, even though he does not use up an HQ slot, he is
still an HQ choice, and so he can fulfil the minimum HQ
requirement.
This, while being in an army-specific FAQ, is a wide-reaching answer: A compulsory selection from the Force organization chart satisfies the required Units whether or not the unit purchased fills an available Slot. An0moly: The tau hedgerow defense tactic with not work agains bog-standard PAGK; Even set up 30" away from the GK line, with 12 FW and 2 Shield drones; First turn on the GK side the GK Advance 6" to within SB range, Fire 20 Shots, 13.333 shots hit, 8.888 shots wound, 4.444 wounds stick; this is enough woulds to force a Morale test. Depending on how the Stagger is set up the next unit back(or Back and to the side) is not likely to be in Range; the Grey knights could very well just stop moving and trade shots with the Tau units; assuming the FW that were shot first turn passed their Ld 8 Morale test, return fire with 8 pulse Rifle shots(Most suits would still be moving to get into range/Position, Broadsides would be dealing with Armour) 8 shots is 4 hits, which is 2.666 wounds, which is .888 dead GK; the ensuing 18 shots from the grey knights equates to 4 more dead Tau, and another morale test. More than half of the FW unit is now dead. Apply this across several units and the Tau Hedge-row is removed as a threat. huh, GK out-shoot tau, Who knew?
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Post by: Therion
...and that is the exact reasoning as to why Henchmen do not fill slots but satisfy mandatory troops requirements and therefore making an army of let's say Coteaz and 20 squads of Henchmen and nothing else legal.
11
Post by: ph34r
Therion wrote:...and that is the exact reasoning as to why Henchmen do not fill slots but satisfy mandatory troops requirements and therefore making an army of let's say Coteaz and 20 squads of Henchmen and nothing else legal.
Indeed.
People who think that you can't have henchmen count as mandatory troops with Coteaz never actually read the FOC rules.
People that think you can only have 6 henchmen squads can't read at all. Automatically Appended Next Post: Fetterkey wrote:If you think people are actually going to allow 17 Razorback/Chimera armies, you're crazy.
I think people playing by RAW will. This most likely will include the INATFAQ.
GW might rules change it, but that is far down the line.
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Post by: Hulksmash
Far down the line? They've been pretty good of getting out FAQ's within 1-3 of the armies release. I'd merely suggest that before building it you wait until the FAQ. No reason to waste money.
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Post by: notabot187
Hulksmash wrote:Far down the line? They've been pretty good of getting out FAQ's within 1-3 of the armies release. I'd merely suggest that before building it you wait until the FAQ. No reason to waste money.
As many new book nids players can attest, just don't buy armies until the FAQ... All kidding aside, gimmick builds aren't fun to play long term. They are exposed to the fact that everybody hates them (and thus are FAQ fodder), and their one dimensional play gets old. Also good luck finding pick up games with some of the silly lists people are purposing. Its like playing 50 individual obliterators in apoc, or an apoc army of 1 character and all orbital bombardments, it may be legal, doesn't mean anybody will play you (sad I had to go to apoc to find anything crazy enough to even compare to this lol)
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Post by: dayve110
notabot187 wrote:Hulksmash wrote:Far down the line? They've been pretty good of getting out FAQ's within 1-3 of the armies release. I'd merely suggest that before building it you wait until the FAQ. No reason to waste money.
As many new book nids players can attest, just don't buy armies until the FAQ... All kidding aside, gimmick builds aren't fun to play long term. They are exposed to the fact that everybody hates them (and thus are FAQ fodder), and their one dimensional play gets old. Also good luck finding pick up games with some of the silly lists people are purposing. Its like playing 50 individual obliterators in apoc, or an apoc army of 1 character and all orbital bombardments, it may be legal, doesn't mean anybody will play you (sad I had to go to apoc to find anything crazy enough to even compare to this lol)
Agreed.
Anyone who takes an MSU spam henchman army by abusing a rule, that frankly IMO, should be FAQ'd is only going to get one game in. That game being the first, after that everyone in my local area will flat-out refuse to play that army.
Although... Necrons running multiple monoliths would have a field day hitting all those units with D6 shots each.
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Post by: lindsay40k
dayve110 wrote:Necrons running multiple monoliths would have a field day hitting all those units with D6 shots each.
I'm now wishing my Doom of Malan'tai didn't have a cap on the number of W it could store
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Post by: Darien13
As many have mentioned, they are still just a marine army, albeit with some powerful rules
What I'm most excited about is how cool my next chaos codex might be potentially because of it
S5 thousand sons bolters? Probably
Awesome chainaxes and power weapons on berserkers? Yup
Cheaper elite models? Yes
Ahriman game breakingly powerful? Definitely
On the note of grey knights however, I think the thing that scares me most is that their models with power weapons and s5 stormbolters cost the same as my berserkers, potentially cheaper since they aren't paying for the expensive champ and fist
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Post by: Sephyr
Darien13 wrote:As many have mentioned, they are still just a marine army, albeit with some powerful rules
What I'm most excited about is how cool my next chaos codex might be potentially because of it
S5 thousand sons bolters? Probably
Awesome chainaxes and power weapons on berserkers? Yup
Cheaper elite models? Yes
Ahriman game breakingly powerful? Definitely
On the note of grey knights however, I think the thing that scares me most is that their models with power weapons and s5 stormbolters cost the same as my berserkers, potentially cheaper since they aren't paying for the expensive champ and fist
Speaking as a CSM playes that would benefit if Berserkers became Death Company minus the rage rule in the next 'dex, I'd rather they didn't go overboard. If they follow the same rules mentality they have shown in the recent Dark Eldar and Nid codices, I'll be happy enough: varied armies, units that are great at what they are supposed to do but not universal answers to most or all all tactical issue or severely outperform specialized units on other armies.
I mostly play with a large circle of steady friends. I'm not out to annoy them by fielding tricky armies. Give me a tall chain-axe and and a loyalist to swing it at, and I'll be set! 
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Post by: Devilduckii
I already don't want to play against this new army
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Post by: Fafnir
Devilduckii wrote:I already don't want to play against this new army
Then you're overreacting. Take a little bit of Plasma and a Lascannon or two, and the Grey Knights are all ready gaking themselves in terror.
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Post by: schadenfreude
Kommissar Kel wrote:Chimera_Calvin wrote:@ Kommisar Kel - why is this a point for debate? Henchmen do not take up a slot in the force org chart.
Ergo as per RAW if they cannot take up a slot in the force org chart there is no way they could be counted as taking the compulsary slot in that same chart. You would have to take Coteaz + 2 Troops before you start with the infinite henchmen shennanigans.
That being said, its still broken as all get up and if not FAQ'd out the only limiting factor will be people's budget and/or converting skill for getting hold of that many Bolter-equipped guardsmen and MM Servitors
Neither does the Emperors Champion Take up an HQ slot, yet he can be your 1 mandatory HQ.
For all those that feel the infinite Henchmen is OP, I say this:
Stop.
Take a deep breath.
Think about it.
63 3-Servitor MM Henchmen units means most of them(around half) will suffer from mindlock, and be useless; worse mindlock effects the Whole unit, not just the servitors.
An army comprised entirely of Cheap transports and Bolter armed acolytes cannot deal with AV over 12 at all and will have some difficulty with AV 11-12.
CSM have been able to do it since 4th edition with Summoned Daemons; Are you afraid of CSM? Do they Win every game and every tourney?
Henchman points are going to start adding up very fast; especially in the power "competitive" builds.
Math hammer.
60MM servitors have a 50% chance of mindlock. Average of 30 will mindlocks, of those 30 servitors 15 of their shots will hit.
For a slight increase in cost a metla armed acolyte costs 4 more points than a servitor. For the same cost of 60 servitors one could buy 27 MM armed acolytes (9 MSU) and 21 servitors (7 MSU) for under 600 points.
MSU 3 plasma gun acolyte squads cost 42 for 3 plasma guns, or 420 for 30 plasma guns.
Multi Melta vehicle bits go for as little as 2 for $1 on ebay, and GW sells metal melta guns at $1.60 (5 for $8)
Bolters go for about 10 for $1 on ebay
Offhand as a conversion project if I were to model the army as a grot rebellion by converting lobotomized orks into servitors and night goblins into acolytes it would look like this.
Cortez= Big mek, or little mek if I convert a grot
30 MM Servitors (10 MSU) (converted orks) cost=$15 minimum for ebayed MM parts
30 melta acolytes (10 MSU) converted night goblins cost=$48 fixed buying parts straight from GW
30 Plasma acolytes (10 MSU) converted night goblins cost=$49.50 fixed buying parts straight from GW
108 Bolt gun acolytes (36 MSU) converted night goblins cost= $10.80
Total cost to convert my orks and night goblins right now would be about $124 rounded up with about $24 of those dollars being from ebay so if we triple the ebay costs to $75 for "shipping" the total cost is still only $175.
1740 point army with 30 MM servitors (only 15 will mindlock per turn) 30 melta acolytes, 30 plasma acolytes, and 108 bolt gun acolytes. Model count of 199, 77 MSU
Cost just isn't a factor. Also note if it's being done as a grot rebellion night gobbos the are incredibly cheap to convert.
It's only going to be a net list, because if it actually pops up it's going to be FAQ'd into the realm of the lost and the damned.
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Post by: imweasel
schadenfreude wrote:Math hammer.
60MM servitors have a 50% chance of mindlock. Average of 30 will mindlocks, of those 30 servitors 15 of their shots will hit.
For a slight increase in cost a metla armed acolyte costs 4 more points than a servitor. For the same cost of 60 servitors one could buy 27 MM armed acolytes (9 MSU) and 21 servitors (7 MSU) for under 600 points.
MSU 3 plasma gun acolyte squads cost 42 for 3 plasma guns, or 420 for 30 plasma guns.
Multi Melta vehicle bits go for as little as 2 for $1 on ebay, and GW sells metal melta guns at $1.60 (5 for $8)
Bolters go for about 10 for $1 on ebay
Offhand as a conversion project if I were to model the army as a grot rebellion by converting lobotomized orks into servitors and night goblins into acolytes it would look like this.
Cortez= Big mek, or little mek if I convert a grot
30 MM Servitors (10 MSU) (converted orks) cost=$15 minimum for ebayed MM parts
30 melta acolytes (10 MSU) converted night goblins cost=$48 fixed buying parts straight from GW
30 Plasma acolytes (10 MSU) converted night goblins cost=$49.50 fixed buying parts straight from GW
108 Bolt gun acolytes (36 MSU) converted night goblins cost= $10.80
Total cost to convert my orks and night goblins right now would be about $124 rounded up with about $24 of those dollars being from ebay so if we triple the ebay costs to $75 for "shipping" the total cost is still only $175.
1740 point army with 30 MM servitors (only 15 will mindlock per turn) 30 melta acolytes, 30 plasma acolytes, and 108 bolt gun acolytes. Model count of 199, 77 MSU
Cost just isn't a factor. Also note if it's being done as a grot rebellion night gobbos the are incredibly cheap to convert.
It's only going to be a net list, because if it actually pops up it's going to be FAQ'd into the realm of the lost and the damned.
How can it be faq'ed into oblivion? You could still take a ton of mm servitors and plasma acolytes and still do pretty well.
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Post by: alphaomega4ever
couldn't tell if you all had found/not found based on comments...GK codex is out on scribd minus a few chopped off sections of text here and there and semi-blurred pics in some areas - 95% complete minus fluff
I'm thinking a Nemesis Great Sword is a must on all Dreadknights...?
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Post by: Fafnir
alphaomega4ever wrote:couldn't tell if you all had found/not found based on comments...GK codex is out on scribd minus a few chopped off sections of text here and there and semi-blurred pics in some areas - 95% complete minus fluff
I'm thinking a Nemesis Great Sword is a must on all Dreadknights...?
It's an ancient prerelease codex that has gone through several changes.
We already have a much new version.
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Post by: Gavo
Fafnir wrote:alphaomega4ever wrote:couldn't tell if you all had found/not found based on comments...GK codex is out on scribd minus a few chopped off sections of text here and there and semi-blurred pics in some areas - 95% complete minus fluff
I'm thinking a Nemesis Great Sword is a must on all Dreadknights...?
It's an ancient prerelease codex that has gone through several changes.
We already have a much new version.
The version he was showing was one of a guy literally having photos of him holding the codex, it was the new one, not the old PDF that got leaked earlier in the month.
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Post by: Fafnir
Gavo wrote:Fafnir wrote:alphaomega4ever wrote:couldn't tell if you all had found/not found based on comments...GK codex is out on scribd minus a few chopped off sections of text here and there and semi-blurred pics in some areas - 95% complete minus fluff
I'm thinking a Nemesis Great Sword is a must on all Dreadknights...?
It's an ancient prerelease codex that has gone through several changes.
We already have a much new version.
The version he was showing was one of a guy literally having photos of him holding the codex, it was the new one, not the old PDF that got leaked earlier in the month.
That's the one I've been reading. Good quality photos too. The version that alphaomega4ever is talking about, however, sounds a lot like the prerelease codex that we got a while back.
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Post by: Gavo
Nah, he had a link up for about a minute before he took it down, he (was) talking about the guy holding a codex.
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Post by: reds8n
Please don't post links or information that breaches copyright rules please.
Much obliged.
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Post by: alphaomega4ever
reds8n wrote: Please don't post links or information that breaches copyright rules please.
Much obliged.
...why i took off the link...thats another debate to be had but i will adhere to rules here...and yes the one i was referencing had full updates (tho some of the edges were blocked off)
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Post by: MandalorynOranj
Hmmm, harlequins are looking pretty good against the new dex, the shadowseer will keep them safe from nearly all firepower, and they'll be hitting before the halberds, I may have to up the number of squads I run, since I'm gonna be playing against the new GK dex a LOT.
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Post by: CKO
Everyone is talking about shooty list I am sure its due to the metagame, but I like the Grey Knights cc potential anyone else see cc potential?
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Post by: notabot187
CKO wrote:Everyone is talking about shooty list I am sure its due to the metagame, but I like the Grey Knights cc potential anyone else see cc potential?
An army full of force weapons and marine stats is always going to have decent CC ability. Their lack of number of attacks is why people are focusing on shooting, so that CC ability will have the volume of attacks to prevail.
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Post by: schadenfreude
imweasel wrote:schadenfreude wrote:Math hammer.
60MM servitors have a 50% chance of mindlock. Average of 30 will mindlocks, of those 30 servitors 15 of their shots will hit.
For a slight increase in cost a metla armed acolyte costs 4 more points than a servitor. For the same cost of 60 servitors one could buy 27 MM armed acolytes (9 MSU) and 21 servitors (7 MSU) for under 600 points.
MSU 3 plasma gun acolyte squads cost 42 for 3 plasma guns, or 420 for 30 plasma guns.
Multi Melta vehicle bits go for as little as 2 for $1 on ebay, and GW sells metal melta guns at $1.60 (5 for $8)
Bolters go for about 10 for $1 on ebay
Offhand as a conversion project if I were to model the army as a grot rebellion by converting lobotomized orks into servitors and night goblins into acolytes it would look like this.
Cortez= Big mek, or little mek if I convert a grot
30 MM Servitors (10 MSU) (converted orks) cost=$15 minimum for ebayed MM parts
30 melta acolytes (10 MSU) converted night goblins cost=$48 fixed buying parts straight from GW
30 Plasma acolytes (10 MSU) converted night goblins cost=$49.50 fixed buying parts straight from GW
108 Bolt gun acolytes (36 MSU) converted night goblins cost= $10.80
Total cost to convert my orks and night goblins right now would be about $124 rounded up with about $24 of those dollars being from ebay so if we triple the ebay costs to $75 for "shipping" the total cost is still only $175.
1740 point army with 30 MM servitors (only 15 will mindlock per turn) 30 melta acolytes, 30 plasma acolytes, and 108 bolt gun acolytes. Model count of 199, 77 MSU
Cost just isn't a factor. Also note if it's being done as a grot rebellion night gobbos the are incredibly cheap to convert.
It's only going to be a net list, because if it actually pops up it's going to be FAQ'd into the realm of the lost and the damned.
How can it be faq'ed into oblivion? You could still take a ton of mm servitors and plasma acolytes and still do pretty well.
The army I listed had 66 troops choices. There is a rules debate of henchmen take a force org when they become troops. If so 66 troops choices are a legal 1750 list, if not a faq can make it an illegal list.
Nobody is going to see it at a flgs, but it might pop up at ard boys or adepticon for 1 of 2 reasons. Somebody just wants to win, or somebody just wants to prove a point and shut down henchmen spam.
6256
Post by: yorkskargrimironklaw
Nothing has or will beat my 9 kill kan wall with 9 mega nobs and 70 boyz, not even BA and there total ()
Its all down to how you play
29194
Post by: Luco
ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:Just Dave wrote: Actually, I was making a sarcastic comment about all the people screaming about the Codex being broken etc. when it hasn't been released and/or they haven't seen a copy for themselves...
But a lot of people have seen it, you can go into most any store now and see it, most of the more horrifying rumors were true, and some people have already started play testing from it.
I think most armies can still compete against it, but I think it is at the very minimum going to throw a huge wrentch in the meta. Libby's and psychic defense are going to be a must. I think THSS termies will be the GK bane, so they will be even more popular (if that is possible). I think raiders will be hard for builds without inquisitors. Jump heavy blood angels would be good except the whole army has power weapons so you are going to take extreme casualties every time you charge.
I do think it's too early to say it has broken the game, but I think there is more than enough to say this is changing the game.
So... Deathwing/Loganwing/Crusaderwing?
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:Nothing has or will beat my 9 kill kan wall with 9 mega nobs and 70 boyz, not even BA and there total ()
Its all down to how you play
Keep dreaming. Everyone loses.
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Post by: Fafnir
yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:Nothing has or will beat my 9 kill kan wall with 9 mega nobs and 70 boyz, not even BA and there total ()
Its all down to how you play
That list sounds considerably mediocre. Most decent players should be able to easily tear through that with little effort.
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Post by: notabot187
Fafnir wrote:yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:Nothing has or will beat my 9 kill kan wall with 9 mega nobs and 70 boyz, not even BA and there total ()
Its all down to how you play
That list sounds considerably mediocre. Most decent players should be able to easily tear through that with little effort.
I wouldn't put much credence to his opinion, just read past posts and its pretty clear that he doesn't play much outside his circle of friends.
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Post by: SumYungGui
notabot187 wrote:Hulksmash wrote:Far down the line? They've been pretty good of getting out FAQ's within 1-3 of the armies release. I'd merely suggest that before building it you wait until the FAQ. No reason to waste money.
As many new book nids players can attest, just don't buy armies until the FAQ... All kidding aside, gimmick builds aren't fun to play long term. They are exposed to the fact that everybody hates them (and thus are FAQ fodder), and their one dimensional play gets old. Also good luck finding pick up games with some of the silly lists people are purposing. Its like playing 50 individual obliterators in apoc, or an apoc army of 1 character and all orbital bombardments, it may be legal, doesn't mean anybody will play you (sad I had to go to apoc to find anything crazy enough to even compare to this lol)
You mentioned the difference yourself, the new book Tyranid players got shafted by the FAQ..........................eventually. Once they decided to get around the to Blood Angel FAQ anyway. We're Xenos. It's all we get. These guys are more SPESS MUHREENS. They'll get an FAQ in a few hours, and it will say this is legal as well as reducing the points cost and even saying 'oh by the way against Xenos the entire army gets +1 str. Just because'
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Post by: Emperors_Champion
NINE DREADNOUGHTS!
Mawhahahahahaha!
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Post by: Stormrider
yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:Nothing has or will beat my 9 kill kan wall with 9 mega nobs and 70 boyz, not even BA and there total ()
Its all down to how you play
Oh, okay.
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