I'm not sure what to think of that other than it is all kinds of crap that the kid who was attacked and defended himself also go suspended.
It was funny after he slammed the little prick into the ground that the taller kid than decided to step up to the fat kid but a taller girl turned him away.
That kid went "old school" on the bully, and I could not love it more.
More skinny people who treat fat people poorly *just because they're fat* should receive the same treatment.
Ahtman wrote:I'm not sure what to think of that other than it is all kinds of crap that the kid who was attacked and defended himself also go suspended.
It was funny after he slammed the little prick into the ground that the taller kid than decided to step up to the fat kid but a taller girl turned him away.
Yea I think fatty fatty would have tore him a new donkey-cave at that point, but none of them are going to mess with a girl. At that age girls can be brutal, as in playwack a mole with your cojones and then tell the teacher they were being picked on.
Little snippet of info gleamed from 4chan , the small boy had his ankle broken or fracture , large kids getting sued which is obscene as he started the whole thing.
But might not be right about that as its 4chan so ya know
I imagine this video will be of immense help for the attorneys defending the big kid's family. Since the other kid clearly attacked the big kid first and repeatedly and no one stopped it I don't think there will be much sympathy for them legally or any other way. Even a teen has the right to defend himself. On the other hand they might be able to sue the school for not paying enough attention.
blackclaw1 wrote:Little snippet of info gleamed from 4chan , the small boy had his ankle broken or fracture , large kids getting sued which is obscene as he started the whole thing.
But might not be right about that as its 4chan so ya know
Good luck with suing someone under the age of legal responsibility, who hasn't got any money.
I'm amazed Dogma posted this video! I mean clearly this is not a case of measured responses or proportionate force. That skinny kid didn't even phase the big kid, then the big kid goes straight for a kill move. I mean clearly those punches were no threat.
blackclaw1 wrote:Little snippet of info gleamed from 4chan , the small boy had his ankle broken or fracture , large kids getting sued which is obscene as he started the whole thing.
But might not be right about that as its 4chan so ya know
Good luck with suing someone under the age of legal responsibility, who hasn't got any money.
Andrew1975 wrote:I'm amazed Dogma posted this video! I mean clearly this is not a case of measured responses or proportionate force. That skinny kid didn't even phase the big kid, then the big kid goes straight for a kill move. I mean clearly those punches were no threat.
I say go big kid go.
It seemed like a measured response to me. The skinny kid was throwing punches that were clearly all about showing off (complete with butterfly floating) and the fat kid pulled a move that was also clearly about showing off. Body slams don't really hurt that bad, in general, the skinny kid was staggered because his head bounced off the concrete.
Also, I was the fat kid at that age, and then discovered the gym and reveled in embarrassing people athletically, so it sits close to my heart.
dogma wrote:It seemed like a measured response to me. The skinny kid was throwing punches that were clearly all about showing off (complete with butterfly floating) and the fat kid pulled a move that was also clearly about showing off. Body slams don't really hurt that bad, in general, the skinny kid was staggered because his head bounced off the concrete.
As I recall from my Judo days, it was suggested that "fighting to win" (i.e., Ender Wiggin style) is not a good idea. It's great that you can defend yourself, but try explaining how a couple of slaps earned the other kid a shattered knee cap and broken elbow.
Why does this remind me of this?
http://dailyp.wikispot.org/Front_Page Someone is going to be pissed that their wiki has 50 pages that all they say is random gibberish.
Anyway funny video
dogma wrote:It seemed like a measured response to me. The skinny kid was throwing punches that were clearly all about showing off (complete with butterfly floating) and the fat kid pulled a move that was also clearly about showing off. Body slams don't really hurt that bad, in general, the skinny kid was staggered because his head bounced off the concrete.
As I recall from my Judo days, it was suggested that "fighting to win" (i.e., Ender Wiggin style) is not a good idea. It's great that you can defend yourself, but try explaining how a couple of slaps earned the other kid a shattered knee cap and broken elbow.
Yea, you're right, the big kid should've just let him keep on antagonising him. Either that or ask him to please stop...I'm sure the little kid would've backed off then.
F That.
Never retaliate...always escalate.
he pulls a knife, you pull a gun...
he sends you to the hospital, you come back and send him to the morgue....
biccat wrote:
As I recall from my Judo days, it was suggested that "fighting to win" (i.e., Ender Wiggin style) is not a good idea. It's great that you can defend yourself, but try explaining how a couple of slaps earned the other kid a shattered knee cap and broken elbow.
There's a couple of schools of thought there, but the general consensus among martial artists that I consider to be respectable seems to be that you should only ever fight (outside competition) to win, and that the reality of such violence should dissuade you from fighting at all.
Ahtman wrote:He didn't slap him, he punched him with a closed fist multiple times and show no signs of stopping. The bigger kid picked him up and dropped him once.
I was agreeing with dogma. The big kid did a showy move, he didn't drop him on the ground and curb-stomp him.
dogma wrote:There's a couple of schools of thought there, but the general consensus among martial artists that I consider to be respectable seems to be that you should only ever fight (outside competition) to win, and that the reality of such violence should dissuade you from fighting at all.
Totally agree. Which is why my friend who had a knife pulled on him merely threw the offender down, disarmed him, and waited until the cops showed up. He just as easily broken the guys arm or choked him into unconsciousness and walked away.
In truth, the way to WIN a real fight is to be totally proactive.
Someone simply 'pushes' you with their hand in an assaultive manner, your best bet is a full on assault with fists, holds, your entire repetoire. Noone is going to get a chance to bodily harm ME if I get the jump on them. If they half-ass attack me...they're getting pummeled and probably knocked out before I stop....and yes, after simply pushing me physically....and I'm in Law Enforcement. It's justified.
Assault is assault. If the guy who starts it isnt effective enough with his attack to put you down...he deserves whatever he gets.
Yes I know this is children fighting, but the smaller kid may have learned a very valuable life lesson that day...if he was paying attention.
Deadshane1 wrote:
Someone simply 'pushes' you with their hand in an assaultive manner, your best bet is a full on assault with fists, holds, your entire repetoire. Noone is going to get a chance to bodily harm ME if I get the jump on them. If they half-ass attack me...they're getting pummeled and probably knocked out before I stop....and yes, after simply pushing me physically....and I'm in Law Enforcement. It's justified.
That may be the case when you're not dealing with someone who has any training, but I've beaten around enough guys is the MMA ring, and tossed more on the wrestling mat, to know that pure aggression isn't a panacea for victory.
I think the funniest part is that I -cannot- for the life of me, figure out how twiggy could be a bully. Kid looks like he'd shatter an elbow just punching something. I've taken craps with more to them than that one. At least in our Highschool, the guys that picked fights were on the Senior (Am) Football and/or Rugby teams. That boy looks like he'd sprain something playing chess!
I have a feeling it has something to do with the kid that steps up after the smaller one gets dropped on his noggin'. He is the main bully and the smaller one is just a satellite bully.
metallifan wrote:I think the funniest part is that I -cannot- for the life of me, figure out how twiggy could be a bully. Kid looks like he'd shatter an elbow just punching something. I've taken craps with more to them than that one. At least in our Highschool, the guys that picked fights were on the Senior (Am) Football and/or Rugby teams. That boy looks like he'd sprain something playing chess!
I remember lots of false bullies in high school that were fighting in a misguided attempt to get with the "in" crowd.
biccat wrote:
I was agreeing with dogma. The big kid did a showy move, he didn't drop him on the ground and curb-stomp him.
Or sweep the leg, which is the lowest of low.
I think that's a little unfair because small, skinny kids like me need to use every trick in the book (like cheap shots) just to get an upper hand on the bigger bullies.
Deadshane1 wrote:Yes I know this is children fighting, but the smaller kid may have learned a very valuable life lesson that day...if he was paying attention.
Little kids never do...... Every single time there was a fight in my school, a little kid started it. Every time, they would get beat down. And then the next week they would start something up again.
Good for the big dude. As long as he doesn't go bully himself, he will go far.
Cheesecat wrote:
I think that's a little unfair because small, skinny kids like me need to use every trick in the book (like cheap shots) just to get an upper hand on the bigger bullies.
Deadshane1 wrote:Someone simply 'pushes' you with their hand in an assaultive manner, your best bet is a full on assault with fists, holds, your entire repetoire. Noone is going to get a chance to bodily harm ME if I get the jump on them. If they half-ass attack me...they're getting pummeled and probably knocked out before I stop....and yes, after simply pushing me physically....and I'm in Law Enforcement. It's justified.
I find this attitude is common among LE types.
metallifan wrote:I think the funniest part is that I -cannot- for the life of me, figure out how twiggy could be a bully. Kid looks like he'd shatter an elbow just punching something. I've taken craps with more to them than that one. At least in our Highschool, the guys that picked fights were on the Senior (Am) Football and/or Rugby teams. That boy looks like he'd sprain something playing chess!
Had a kid like that in grade school. Except in addition to being short and twiggy, he had MS.
You'd feel real bad for fighting back. And he knew it.
biccat wrote:
I was agreeing with dogma. The big kid did a showy move, he didn't drop him on the ground and curb-stomp him.
Or sweep the leg, which is the lowest of low.
I think that's a little unfair because small, skinny kids like me need to use every trick in the book (like cheap shots) just to get an upper hand on the bigger bullies.
In that case, balls.
All is fair in war.
Honestly, if someone uses a weapon, all bets are off and I can do anything I want to the guy short of killing him.
biccat wrote:
I was agreeing with dogma. The big kid did a showy move, he didn't drop him on the ground and curb-stomp him.
Or sweep the leg, which is the lowest of low.
I think that's a little unfair because small, skinny kids like me need to use every trick in the book (like cheap shots) just to get an upper hand on the bigger bullies.
In that case, balls.
All is fair in war.
Honestly, if someone uses a weapon, all bets are off and I can do anything I want to the guy short of killing him.
That's how I feel I'll use anything in a fight crotch shots, attacking when back is turned, kicking sand in eyes, hitting while they're down, biting, using elbows, anything to make sure they don't get the upper
In non-competitve fights i.e. street fights all bets are off. The guy thinks there is some non-existent code of honor is the one that will lose, often more than a wallet. A real fight is no joke. I've seen people get run over and stabbed through the chest. You don't screw around, you drop them and get the hell away.
Points that will stand out in Court...
The smaller kid was clearly the agressor.
The bigger kid takes a defensive posture.
The smaller one lands several blows.
The bigger kid backs off after his actions.
Also... Some-one off camera is encouraging the smaller kid.
Just based on the video evidence..... it was self defense.
blackclaw1 wrote:Little snippet of info gleamed from 4chan , the small boy had his ankle broken or fracture , large kids getting sued which is obscene as he started the whole thing.
Whoa, that's real life victim blaming right there.
Khornholio wrote:I think the little satellite bully learned his lesson. Will he ever play footy again?
Fat kid went home to paint his Angry Marines.
Either that or get laid by that tall girl. (also did anyone else notice that the porker and the girl had different shirts than the bullies maybe, they're from a different school or it's now mandatory for bullies to wear
Just for the record Casey (the big kid) got suspended for 4 days as is the schools behavioural plan policy on fighting, sucks but I guess that's how they roll. The drip on the other hand was suspended for 20 days, apparently his folks are talking about suing but I think if they have any smarts what so ever they will back away from that idea.
also the drip doesn't have a broken ankle or anything like that, he popped his knee but that was it.. so he is medically fine... pity... If anyone should sue it should be Casey suing the education department and his school for failing to provide him a safe learning environment as it's been stated repeatedly Casey has taken years of bullying and abuse at school.
This was a tad uncomfortable to watch, but then...
PILE DRIVER!
FETH YEAH! YOU SKINNY BITCH! EAT IT. EAAAAAAAAAAAAT IT.
*ahem*
It would have been so much better if the big kid had leathered him when he was crawling away.
As for schools saying 'Don't hit back', did anyones parents ever share those sentiments? I was told, hit them back as hard as you can. Easier said than done though.
As for schools saying 'Don't hit back', did anyones parents ever share those sentiments?
Yes, mine, because my the staff at my schools had their heads so far up their own arses that it'd take a bloody good surgeon to get 'em out.
Generally, if you hit back, you would be punished 'cos the aggressor would run back and tell the most senior person they could find whilst their friends held you back, and as per usual, nobody saw anything apart from the bully's friends, who saw the victim leathering the bully for XYZ reason.
Even in verbal bullying, you'd get a raw deal as the victim. I reported something and wanted to remain completely anonymous, so what happens? I'm called to the staff office to meet with the bullies, they'd give a half-arsed "sorry" and i'd be forced to accept it, shake hands and be on my merry way. Never in the history of forever has that EVER helped anything.
Bully 1 - "Who do you reckon told on us?"
*I walk in*
Bully 1 to Bully 2 - "Bully him some more when we get out of here?"
Bully 2 - "Of course."
EDIT: Also missed out on racist bullying. No, not bullying someone because of their race, using race or religious beliefs as a shield against retaliation. Schools also see the race card before it's pulled and strive to avoid conflict on racial grounds. So when someone of a different belief to my own bit my ear in primary school, what happened? He got slapped the wrist and got told not to do it again. If it'd been the other way around? I'd have been expelled faster than you can say 'OMGRACIST!'.
My brother was also excluded thanks to a conflict with the same guy, where the guy kept insulting him in arabic and telling people around him what it meant and how to say it, so my brother snaps, makes a racist insult and gets the gakky end of the stick. The aggressor? His parents got involved and all hell broke loose; consequently, he avoid any punishment.
I watched it again and was thinking how ace it would've been if the little turd's buddy had actually pushed the Fat Kid and the Fat Kid gave him a Stone Cold Stunner.
Fat Kid should wear his suspension notice like an F'n medal.
Andrew1975 wrote:Completely justified. Doesn't he know you have to get the fat kid winded first by running around a bit.
As a former fat kid and currently fat man (LOL), I have to tell you that I got a kick out of that comment.
Obviously, however, you did not pay attention. He tried to wind the kid. He danced around, trying to be a moving target. He learned the hard way, though, that just because we're fat doesn't mean we're not FAST. We ARe fast (in very, very small doses). We move slowly because we're conserving energy for times like this, when we need to strike like a viper.
...a fat little viper trying to get a twinkie colored mouse...
I really hate the idea of courts getting involved in this at all.
Kids do gak, and it teaches them lessons. Schools should be safer environments for victims of bullying, but dragging the courts in won't change that. Especially not in this case, where the donkey-cave got what was coming to him.
My theory on bullying is this:
DO NOT start physical altercations. You DO NOT EVER take the first swing... but you take the last one.
Someone starts something with you, you end it.
Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:Is it bad right when he picked him up, all I head was
Yeh, but when the skinny kid got back up and was limping around. It's not called a fatality for nothing.
If the skinny kid learns from this he won't bully anyone else, at least for a while. Hopefully it's the wake up call idiots like him need and he will learn from it properly.
Who knows next fat kid might be able to pull off Zangief's Ultra.
Of course he might just wait until he heals up then try going at the fat kid with a knife or something... >_>
Andrew1975 wrote:Completely justified. Doesn't he know you have to get the fat kid winded first by running around a bit.
As a former fat kid and currently fat man (LOL), I have to tell you that I got a kick out of that comment.
Obviously, however, you did not pay attention. He tried to wind the kid. He danced around, trying to be a moving target. He learned the hard way, though, that just because we're fat doesn't mean we're not FAST. We ARe fast (in very, very small doses). We move slowly because we're conserving energy for times like this, when we need to strike like a viper.
...a fat little viper trying to get a twinkie colored mouse...
Eric
Winning!
I used to wrestle and one night at a party I wrestled this giant fat kid for fun, no malice involved on either end. I thought I would just kill him. Don't be fooled fat people are strong (not fast) He just smothered me until I was too tired to move. Eventually I won, but god did we smell after that.
I used to wrestle and one night at a party I wrestled this giant fat kid for fun, no malice involved on either end. I thought I would just kill him. Don't be fooled fat people are strong (not fast) He just smothered me until I was too tired to move. Eventually I won, but god did we smell after that.
: )
We've got to be strong. It takes a lot of muscle to heft around all this girth! : )
I meant it about being fast, though. For short bursts, we are. Like... really... Mostly, it's fast reaction time, though. S'hard toget our bulk moving at a fast run.
Typically, if we get our hands on you, we're going to do some damage... as evidenced on yonder video. : )
I used to wrestle and one night at a party I wrestled this giant fat kid for fun, no malice involved on either end. I thought I would just kill him. Don't be fooled fat people are strong (not fast) He just smothered me until I was too tired to move. Eventually I won, but god did we smell after that.
I wrestled 275 in high school at an average weight of 205. A good chunk of my athletic career was based on what you're describing.
Anyway, the trick is to keep them from getting on top of you.
dogma wrote:If I had been the skinny kid's family, I would have also sued.
If you had watched the tape, you would have dropped the charges, due to a little known phenomenon called "Self Defense".
Yea, self defence doesn't work that way.
You can only self defence in the same way/ severness as your agressor.
Example: you get slapped, the worst thing you can do is slap back.
In the vid. he gets punched a few times, to be counted as self defence he should have fought back with a fist-fight. Not throwing him on the ground and breaking his ankle. This act was of greater consequence then the attackers. Therefore it doesn't count as self-defence but its a new physical assault that he did. (So no i claim self defence, because his actions where not in comparison with that of his assailant.)
Now before i get quoted:
The law never meant to be fair, it exists to bring order and structure in society. To create frames we can operate in, and can live next to each others. These laws however where made by people and most have the same general idea about how to react to for example to a murder. If someone kills another guy, he gets to jail. This lead the people to think that the law is fair, while it never was it intention to be fair.
Honestly, it probably would have been more damaging had he punched him. Fat people can put a lot of mass, and therefore force, behind their strikes; just look at Butterbean, or Roy Nelson.
dogma wrote:If I had been the skinny kid's family, I would have also sued.
If you had watched the tape, you would have dropped the charges, due to a little known phenomenon called "Self Defense".
Yea, self defence doesn't work that way.
You can only self defence in the same way/ severness as your agressor.
Example: you get slapped, the worst thing you can do is slap back.
In the vid. he gets punched a few times, to be counted as self defence he should have fought back with a fist-fight. Not throwing him on the ground and breaking his ankle. This act was of greater consequence then the attackers. Therefore it doesn't count as self-defence but its a new physical assault that he did. (So no i claim self defence, because his actions where not in comparison with that of his assailant.)
That isn't the standard. There is a level of force that is unacceptable but self defense isn't "I do as you do". If a guy threatens to beat you up you can't pull a pistol and shoot them, but you are allowed to fight back if you feel sufficiently threatened and don't see a reasonable way out.
I don't think anyone is arguing that the law is designed for fairness.
Also you write that he broke his ankle as if that was an intentional thing, as though he tossed him on the ground and he then stomped on his ankle.
Ahtman wrote:
Also you write that he broke his ankle as if that was an intentional thing, as though he tossed him on the ground and he then stomped on his ankle.
This is a key point. The fat kid clearly didn't know what he was doing. As both biccat and myself earlier alluded to, had he wanted to hurt him badly, and known what he was doing, he would have taken a very, very different action.
I thought that 'self defence' worked that way; a person puts up his dukes and the other pulls out a gun isn't self defense, but if one engages in fisticuffs the other can break the other man's jaw in self defense as long as he doesn't kick him when he's down.
In this case the fat kid used his power to lift the skinny kid up and slam him, the skinny kid's leg hit what looked like a curb or something which probably broke the kid's ankle. To argue though, the skinny kid had a higher chance of breaking something because his bones aren't as padded as the fat kids'.
I hate the fact that both kids were suspended, the skinny kid is clearly the bully and the fat kid just had enough. How many movies are out that would call the fat kid a hero, and here we are punishing him. We romanticize the victim standing up to the bully, but heaven's forbid should we praise the kid in real life.
I say the skinny kid got what he deserved and we should praise what the fat kid did and criticize the school.
I remember my first time fighting, I just got tired of it all and when the kid's first fist hit me I snapped. He ended up with a broken nose, busted lip, 'Vans' stamped on his forehead, and a couple bruises by the time our fight was done. He broke my glasses and gave me a black eye, but I beat him with his own shoe. Its funny though, I was a fat kid and the guy I beat up was also a skinny guy. I hope that the boost of confidence I got after my fight occurs in the fat kid as well.
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dogma wrote:Honestly, it probably would have been more damaging had he punched him. Fat people can put a lot of mass, and therefore force, behind their strikes; just look at Butterbean, or Roy Nelson.
You have to kno how to fight though and most kids don't learn physics in elementary school.
sillyboy wrote:Yea, self defence doesn't work that way.
You can only self defence in the same way/ severness as your agressor.
Example: you get slapped, the worst thing you can do is slap back.
The specifics really depend on the legal jurisdiction. Even then, I don't know about any jurisdiction that's bothered to go down to the nitty gritty of comparing slaps against bodyslams, mostly the principal is kept very broad, physical violence is acceptable against physical threat, lethal violence against a lethal threat.
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halonachos wrote:I hate the fact that both kids were suspended, the skinny kid is clearly the bully and the fat kid just had enough. How many movies are out that would call the fat kid a hero, and here we are punishing him. We romanticize the victim standing up to the bully, but heaven's forbid should we praise the kid in real life.
I'm more puzzled at the idea of suspension being thought of as a punishment. By my way of thinking, this kid owned an annoying prat, got called awesome by the whole world for doing so, and got a couple of weeks off school to play X-Box.
halonachos wrote:
You have to kno how to fight though....
Yes and no. Yes, knowing how to fight will give you the win when faced with someone of equivalent size, and less knowledge; at least most of the time. But, there are limits to this. For example, Jet Li isn't going to kick the prodigious buttocks of Larry Allen even though Larry Allen doesn't really know how to fight (as far as I know).
Yes, but a fat kid can try to punch while standing still to deliver about the same force as a skinny kid stepping into his punch. From what I saw the fat kid didn't know how to fight(no defensive posturing and slow reaction to the punches) while the skinny kid did(or at least put up a darn good show). Had the fat kid known how to throw a punch it would've ended differently.
Won't argue against Butterbean, but then again he knows how to throw a punch.
That show also said "I don't know anything about fighting".
Well, I would be far more concerned if any kid knew how to effectively fight at that age.
The way it seems it can only get worse from where they are right now, though. The fact that noone stood up to the little kid, but the tall boy immediatly advanced towards the bigger kid (kudos to the girl for intervening though) hints that he might be targeted as revenge. It did not seem to be a unique situation as well. Circle of violence and all.
Well, the little kid got what he deserved (maybe a bit excessive for my taste, but he obviously only did what came natural and did not know what he was doing) and there wasn´t much potential for deescalation in that situation.
Then again, maybe this incident will show the school and parents that the fecal matter hit the air circulation system and they´ll begin countermeasures against bullying. Doubtful, but possible.
Look, is there really a way to keep kids from fighting? My catholic high school tried to no avail. We had counselors and arbitration groups, but really if two kids want to go they are gonna go. There is always some place to fight, the most we ever had to do was leave the school grounds first.
I had four older brothers, I didn't need to be taught how to fight, but my father taught me anyway. Let them throw the first punch then tackle them, wrestle, elbows, knees. 99% of fights go to the ground. I don't know how many kids I took out who thought they were bad as boxers. You might take a hit or two going in, but wrestling and grappling is such a better skill set.
Neither of those kids knew how to fight.....unfortunately. Really, look closer, that skinny kid almost got his neck broken, it could have been much much worse!
I would have love to see him beat that other kid too.
Also, by the way. I think referring to him as fat kid, I think is kind of wrong. He's big, out of shape, overweight, yeah. But he doesn't look like he's 200 pounds of chewed bubblegum. He might be a hauss, but not what I think of when I think "fat kid". Unfortunately he will probably be known as fat kid forever. To me he looks more like the linemen I played football with then the lazy fat kids.
I'm certain he's overweight, but not enough to be labeled "fat kid" forever. I do live in America though.
I used to be the fat kid who would "Hulk out" on the guy picking on me. It worked as they avoided fights with me after I bashed them about a bit, trying to talk it out never seemed to work, I would be patient and they would spend weeks bullying me verbally and then escalate to physical as they thought I was all talk and no walk, then they discovered that they had been poking a sleeping dragon.
I'm stunned fatty got suspended as well, he showed surprising restraint! If he had any sense he would have started stamping on his head until he looked like he couldn't get up and then move down to the body for a bit.
Ha! You can tell we're both from the Boro, Matty - I was going to post pretty much the exact same thing. Got to admire the kid for his restraint - a head-stamping was definitely in order for that little tit.
The bit I loved the most was the bit were the big kid kind of stops and looks at the skinny kid as he's leaving, like:
dogma wrote:If I had been the skinny kid's family, I would have also sued.
If you had watched the tape, you would have dropped the charges, due to a little known phenomenon called "Self Defense".
'Self defence' has to be applied in a proportional manner. A couple of slaps not not warrant broken bones for instance. The little kid could have been seriously injured if his head had struck the concrete hard enough. As it was, injuries weren't serious. I was bullied in school and loathed some of the people involved but in retrospect I don't really think I'd want to have seen them seriously injured.
I think the people who should be worried are the school, because if these things are escalating because they don't deal with bullying properly and support victims then it's on them. They are encouraging people to defend themselves because it's the only valid option and kids aren't the best judge of what constitutes a measured response to being provoked.
Howard A Treesong wrote: I was bullied in school and loathed some of the people involved but in retrospect I don't really think I'd want to have seen them seriously injured..
Really? I think bullies are scum - they strip people of their humanity and force them to leave in fear, a kind of half-life. I'm fairly handy, and always have been, so consequently I never got bullied - but if I ever saw someone picking on someone else for no reason, I would hurt them. Even now.
I don't claim not to get some satisfaction from seeing a bully get their comeuppance but it needs to reflect the nature of the bullying.
For instance, I don't really want to see some kid's head cracked open in the playground for slapping another a few times just like I don't want to see a kid suddenly snapping and stabbing another with a knife or scissors because they are being taunted in art class.
That show also said "I don't know anything about fighting".
Well, I would be far more concerned if any kid knew how to effectively fight at that age.
The way it seems it can only get worse from where they are right now, though. The fact that noone stood up to the little kid, but the tall boy immediatly advanced towards the bigger kid (kudos to the girl for intervening though) hints that he might be targeted as revenge. It did not seem to be a unique situation as well. Circle of violence and all.
Well, the little kid got what he deserved (maybe a bit excessive for my taste, but he obviously only did what came natural and did not know what he was doing) and there wasn´t much potential for deescalation in that situation.
Then again, maybe this incident will show the school and parents that the fecal matter hit the air circulation system and they´ll begin countermeasures against bullying. Doubtful, but possible.
Yes if fatty fatty is smart he will imemediately catch the taller kid outside of school and hurt him fast. Thatsa the real bully. Do that and he won't be messed with for a long while.
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mattyrm wrote:fething funny as.
I'm stunned fatty got suspended as well, he showed surprising restraint! If he had any sense he would have started stamping on his head until he looked like he couldn't get up and then move down to the body for a bit.
That's what my dad taught me.
Thats normal in the US. He made the mistake of doing this in school. Having said that, as a parent I've told the kids don't start the fight but finish it. If he gets suspended he gets suspended, but he finished the fight.
Howard A Treesong wrote:I don't claim not to get some satisfaction from seeing a bully get their comeuppance but it needs to reflect the nature of the bullying.
For instance, I don't really want to see some kid's head cracked open in the playground for slapping another a few times just like I don't want to see a kid suddenly snapping and stabbing another with a knife or scissors because they are being taunted in art class.
Fair enough, I guess that's where you and I differ. That said, it's important to keep a cool head in that sort of situation and to consider one's educational future - if you stab someone in school, that's you pretty much screwed. But if you can avoid being expelled, I'd say pretty much anything goes - I mean, we're talking about individuals who ruin people's lives, drive kids to kill themselves in some cases. They are inhuman filth in my eyes.
dogma wrote:If I had been the skinny kid's family, I would have also sued.
If you had watched the tape, you would have dropped the charges, due to a little known phenomenon called "Self Defense".
'Self defence' has to be applied in a proportional manner. A couple of slaps not not warrant broken bones for instance. The little kid could have been seriously injured if his head had struck the concrete hard enough.
Self defense doesn't have to be proportional, it just has to be reasonable in light of the circumstances. Is it reasonable to bodyslam someone who punches you in the face? I think that it's not unreasonable. The only real limitation on self defense is that you can't escalate a fight. In this case, the skinny kid was obviously looking for a fight and didn't get what he expected.
On suing, the video is probably never going to be admissable, unless you can get the skinny kid to admit it's valid. Far too many evidenciary problems. But the fat kid would probably win on assumption of risk grounds. If you go looking for a fight, you can't sue (recover) when you find one.
dogma wrote:If I had been the skinny kid's family, I would have also sued.
If you had watched the tape, you would have dropped the charges, due to a little known phenomenon called "Self Defense".
'Self defence' has to be applied in a proportional manner. A couple of slaps not not warrant broken bones for instance. The little kid could have been seriously injured if his head had struck the concrete hard enough.
Self defense doesn't have to be proportional, it just has to be reasonable in light of the circumstances.
A proportionate response to the provocation then, 'reasonable' is what a I meant, but reasonableness in law is a bit of a grey area. Obviously you can use more force than your attacker to defend yourself but you can't leap up and down on their head because they slapped you for instance. This sort of debate comes up all the time in the UK especially regarding burglaries because what is or isn't a 'reasonable' level of force is open to interpretation.
The whole idea that one kid is trying to sue another doesn't wash for me. I don't like the compensation culture but they'd be better off suing the school IMO for a failure in duty of care.
As for a body slam being a reasonable response, well it's easy to say that because there was no resulting serious injury, but that's more luck than judgement. It's just as well that the small kid got off light, because he could have had a serious head injury from being thrown on the ground, if he was in hospital with a bleed on the brain it wouldn't be something to laugh about and it probably wouldn't be considered reasonable by many. And the school would be in the gak.
Howard A Treesong wrote: they'd be better off suing the school IMO for a failure in duty of care.
Three pages later we are back where I was at the beginning.
Howard A Treesong wrote:if he was in hospital with a bleed on the brain it wouldn't be something to laugh about
Eh, I'd probably still laugh becuase the basic elements are the same. Dumbass starts a fight becuase he thinks he picked an easy target that won't fight back, and the target does, and does so in what any rational person would think was reasonable. He didn't stick the kids head in a car door and start slamming it or stomp on him when he was on the ground. He dropped him once and that was the end of it. If a guy pulls a knife and means to do you harm and you shove him and he trips and impales himself on something are you now to be charged with murder even though you were using reasonable force to defend yourself? Just becuase your reasonable response lead to unintended consequences should you be charged? Even if you were what jury do you think would convict?
Howard A Treesong wrote: they'd be better off suing the school IMO for a failure in duty of care.
Three pages later we are back where I was at the beginning.
***Disagree. Its not the school's fault, just like its not the duty of the police to protect the individual person.
Howard A Treesong wrote:if he was in hospital with a bleed on the brain it wouldn't be something to laugh about
Eh, I'd probably still laugh becuase the basic elements are the same. Dumbass starts a fight becuase he thinks he picked an easy target that won't fight back, and the target does, and does so in what any rational person would think was reasonable. He didn't stick the kids head in a car door and start slamming it or stomp on him when he was on the ground. He dropped him once and that was the end of it. If a guy pulls a knife and means to do you harm and you shove him and he trips and impales himself on something are you now to be charged with murder even though you were using reasonable force to defend yourself? Just becuase your reasonable response lead to unintended consequences should you be charged? Even if you were what jury do you think would convict?
Agreed. You start it and get your ass kick I'm pulling a Nelson and commencing operation Point and Laugh.
Or in the words of the immortal bard:
Howard A Treesong wrote: they'd be better off suing the school IMO for a failure in duty of care.
Three pages later we are back where I was at the beginning.
***Disagree. Its not the school's fault, just like its not the duty of the police to protect the individual person.
I'm not saying the school is at fault, but that if anyone is to be sued it would be the school. The courts can decide fault. Also, the school probably has more money to siphon off.
The school has no money. That money comes from the taxpayer, which means me and you.
Give the kid ten bucks then expel him from all public schools and give him a shovel with the note "congrats, since your parents are suing us, you get the exciting career choice option of ditchdigging. Life sucks but so do your parents."
Frazzled wrote:The school has no money. That money comes from the taxpayer, which means me and you.
Well than you should have given the school more money so that it would have better security and personnel. You are paying for your stinginess now aren't you? We also don't know if this was a public school or a private school. You also know that it isn't that simple. Just becuase an institution has tax payer funding doen't mean it can't be sued. The government gets sued all the time by people that pay taxes into it.
I am solidly on the big kids side here, it doesn't matter how big/small you are if someone is tormenting you and has the arrogance to continue in front of everyone to big note himself he deserves rightly so to be put in his place, I'm guessing the big guy's not the most confident or violent person, but constant bullying will push people to the mental edge especially at that age, we're lucky he didn't do nothing and go home and commit suicide like so many other poor kids nowadays! it's a tough choice, do you retaliate and defend yourself? or do you fear reprisals and just cop the abuse? until you can't walk out your front door without wondering who else will abuse/punch/torment/degrade you? I don't condone the violence but you really can't blame him for that excellently executed body slam. lets just hope people leave him alone now.
Frazzled wrote:The school has no money. That money comes from the taxpayer, which means me and you.
Well than you should have given the school more money so that it would have better security and personnel. You are paying for your stinginess now aren't you? We also don't know if this was a public school or a private school. You also know that it isn't that simple. Just becuase an institution has tax payer funding doen't mean it can't be sued. The government gets sued all the time by people that pay taxes into it.
how would a security guard have helped? This occurred in the space of 30 seconds. you would have had to have a guard right there. Plusnowdays schools don't act except for calling in police, then little scumbag's parent's would sue or get on Fox and yerp about how thier little "accident" is being oppressed by the man.
better to give him a shovel and order that the parents be sterilized, for the good of the nation.
Frazzled wrote:Thats normal in the US. He made the mistake of doing this in school. Having said that, as a parent I've told the kids don't start the fight but finish it. If he gets suspended he gets suspended, but he finished the fight.
That's a lot like what I told mine. When I told them to finish the fight, I always followed with something like, "Make no mistake about it. You WILL get suspended. You WILL get in trouble at school. That's it, though. There will be no trouble for you at home, as long as you didn't start it."
Howard A Treesong wrote: they'd be better off suing the school IMO for a failure in duty of care.
Three pages later we are back where I was at the beginning.
***Disagree. Its not the school's fault, just like its not the duty of the police to protect the individual person.
I wasn't making an observation about deserved blame. I don't think the school should carry the can for scummy kids attacking each other unless there's a serious concern about the quality of supervision the school has over its pupils. But that doesn't mean they can't be held responsible by the parents and have to make a payout, there's surely more mileage in a case against the school than against the kid who can easily demonstrate themselves to be a victim who has lashed out.
This isn't like the police protecting individuals in the public. While in school hours school staff have parental responsibility for children in their care. ie. both children in this case, meaning staff can in theory be held to account for what kids do, and what is done to them.
Frazzled wrote:Thats normal in the US. He made the mistake of doing this in school. Having said that, as a parent I've told the kids don't start the fight but finish it. If he gets suspended he gets suspended, but he finished the fight.
That's a lot like what I told mine. When I told them to finish the fight, I always followed with something like, "Make no mistake about it. You WILL get suspended. You WILL get in trouble at school. That's it, though. There will be no trouble for you at home, as long as you didn't start it."
Frazzled wrote:The school has no money. That money comes from the taxpayer, which means me and you.
Putting aside the issue of legitimate possession, I don't care where my money comes from, I only care that it comes to me.
I would have no problem at all if the tax-payers were forced to give me 1 billion USD per anum, and I would fight politically in order to prevent that practice from being ended.
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Frazzled wrote:
MagickalMemories wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Thats normal in the US. He made the mistake of doing this in school. Having said that, as a parent I've told the kids don't start the fight but finish it. If he gets suspended he gets suspended, but he finished the fight.
That's a lot like what I told mine. When I told them to finish the fight, I always followed with something like, "Make no mistake about it. You WILL get suspended. You WILL get in trouble at school. That's it, though. There will be no trouble for you at home, as long as you didn't start it."
Eric
Wow, its like we're brothers.
That doesn't work quite as well in prep schools, but there are generally fewer bullies to be concerned about.
Not in my experience, dogma. As a teen, I went to a Private School and a public one. Less people bullied at the public school (and it was a school in St. Louis that had the reputation for being a "tough" school).
MagickalMemories wrote:Not in my experience, dogma. As a teen, I went to a Private School and a public one. Less people bullied at the public school (and it was a school in St. Louis that had the reputation for being a "tough" school).
Eric
St. Louis is weird. One of my best friends went to Nerinx, and had lots of bullying issues there, but very few in the public alternative.
That said, it follows that a school with no established student culture, that generally follows from a feeder system, would be more callous.
in an environment that makes it feel like anyone and everyone is out to get you is not a good place for bullies to breed as eventually they will get stomped as well. best to lay low and not start gak
when you have a straight foodchain and the higher you are at the top theres a greater chance of bullying because you feel you're invincible
Avatar 720 wrote:Bullies will get bullied, but then they bully people below them because of it. All ti takes is one bully to spark a chain reaction:
Bully bullies a kid>Kid bullies another kid to re-build self-esteem>Rinse and repeat.
Eventually, a larger bully with bully the main bully, but then the main bully will bully his victims harder.
And is the word 'bully' starting to sound weird to anyone now?
Personally I don't find my self-esteem being boosted when making people feel miserable, often I feel worse actually. That's why I don't try to hurt people's feelings, I might make a wise-crack or joke about
Frazzled wrote:Plusnowdays schools don't act except for calling in police
Unless things have changed in the past four or five years, that's not true. I distinctly recall anyone involved in a fight back in my old highschool getting hauled off by the JROTC instructors or the nearly seven foot vice principle. Of course, with the insane school board that was elected last year or the year before, who were/are trying to force through "neighborhood schools" (something that the former principle of the highschool I went to, then superintendent, resigned over, and which brought national scrutiny and risked/risks the entire public school system here losing its accredited status...), that might have changed, since people like them embody the absolute worst aspects of meddling, upper middle class, suburbanite parents.
I think that the biggest moment for an overweight or fat kid is the defeat of a bully. It shows the fat kid that the concept of 'skinny being better' is false and that he can hold his own against children with this heralded body type. The fact that he was able to do it so quickly also helps, but hopefully he won't become a bully himself.
MagickalMemories wrote:Not in my experience, dogma. As a teen, I went to a Private School and a public one. Less people bullied at the public school (and it was a school in St. Louis that had the reputation for being a "tough" school).
Eric
St. Louis is weird. One of my best friends went to Nerinx, and had lots of bullying issues there, but very few in the public alternative.
That said, it follows that a school with no established student culture, that generally follows from a feeder system, would be more callous.
St. Louis is pretty odd as far as schools go, and just people in general.
Until you get to the bad side of St. Louis and you realize you need a full suit of kevlar to get to the grocery store.
PS: That video was awesome, little kid got what was coming. Next time he will think twice before trying to show off in front of his friends.
Dreadwinter wrote:Until you get to the bad side of St. Louis and you realize you need a full suit of kevlar to get to the grocery store.
Don't know about it being weird here, but the above quote is a bit off base. We get a bad rap for 2 reasons. First, the way we organize things to calculate crime rate is less "generous" than other places, making it LOOK worse than it really is. Second is our proximity to EAST St. Louis, which has been known as the Murder Capital of the US on occasion.
Keep in mind that ESTL is in Illinois. THOSE are the truly messed up people.
Dreadwinter wrote:Until you get to the bad side of St. Louis and you realize you need a full suit of kevlar to get to the grocery store.
Don't know about it being weird here, but the above quote is a bit off base. We get a bad rap for 2 reasons. First, the way we organize things to calculate crime rate is less "generous" than other places, making it LOOK worse than it really is. Second is our proximity to EAST St. Louis, which has been known as the Murder Capital of the US on occasion.
Keep in mind that ESTL is in Illinois. THOSE are the truly messed up people.
Eric
Yeah, I live on the East Side, and I have to go through ESTL every time I go into the city. Tip if you ever have to do the same: Don't slow down or else you'll die.
Mike Noble wrote:Yeah, I live on the East Side, and I have to go through ESTL every time I go into the city. Tip if you ever have to do the same: Don't slow down or else you'll die.
Unless, of course, you're heading to the Brooklyn, IL area. In that case, slow down, stop and stick around to visit for a while. LOL
Vimes wrote:Well, the little kid got what he deserved (maybe a bit excessive for my taste, but he obviously only did what came natural and did not know what he was doing) and there wasn´t much potential for deescalation in that situation.
I hate this attitude, the little kid knew exactly what he was doing, he was bullying someone on video with the encouragement of his mates. I think trying to look like a bigman on youtube means you know what you are doing.
That interview didn't do Richard any good. I mean before I thought he was a stupid bully. No I just think he is a stupid wuss along with his whole tear filled family. You can tell this kid is just a punk, he didn't even want to apologize until he got coached by his dad.
Kilkrazy wrote:I'm afraid that young Gale comes over as a manipulative lying gak.
Which is just going to humiliate his traumatized mother and father even more and worsen the kid's image all in one blow. Also I find it interesting how Gale's examples of being bullied are much more vague than
Da Boss wrote:Legal action and self defense hardly comes into it when it's kids anyhow. The only person you CAN sue is the school most places.
Go Casey! You legend. I don't plan on watching the interviews, I reckon it'll just make me feel bad.
Yeah, I'll admit it made me a little misty in the eyes, the news is really good at manipulating people's emotions sometimes I wish they would get straight to the facts instead of attacking our emotions.
fortunately, it seems the fat guy took the same lesson that i took a lot years ago myself..... SMASH' 
Everyone knows which way they shouldn't bend, punch/kick/wrench accordingly.
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