I really get annoyed at the hate all over Dakka about gray armies. I would LOVE to have a nicely painted army. However, I have NO talent. None whatsoever. The few things I have painted turn out looking worse than they did gray, with nice details of the models being washed away by the soup of fail that is my artistic ability. I have watched my friends (who are excellent painters) I have watched tutorials, I have tried tons of techniques. I just really suck at it.
I'm a really pleasant person I like to think. I give all my friends rides to the gaming store, and even some players that I don't know very well at my LGS have gotten a ride from me in the past. At my LGS having a gray army is "lame" but it definitely isn't considered a sign that some one is a bad person as it seems to be on Dakka. I know the responses to this, I've read that before. "Just pay some one to paint it." Unfortunately, the only painters who paint up much better than my crappy painting are either too busy to do my paint job or charge more than the models themselves to do so.
Here I also get the response that "40k is an expensive hobby, if you don't like it don't play the game." Which I think is the largest amount of garbage that I've ever heard. I love 40k. I've read every codex that I could get my hands on, played a lot of the video games, and read multiple Black Library books. I love 40k so much that I'm working on a novel for the Black Library, as I could think of nothing better than to work on 40k and fantasy stuff for a living.
My point is, having a gray army doesn't make you a bad person or gamer. I lack the talent to paint it myself, and I lack the cash/opportunity to have some one else paint it. I just hope maybe this message reminds people that a gray army doesn't mean the person is evil.
Personally, I like seeing painted armies facing off and usually play with painted forces, but I completely understand those who just like to play the game. Contrary to popular internet whining, 40k is actually fun to play and can stand alone without the fluff and paint... but if you mix all of those in too, it just makes it that much better.
If I were you I would just spray paint my army white or black (depending on what look you want), at least your army isn't grey and the spray paint often settles to keep the detail easy to see.
Seriously though... not painting is a conscious decision... no one has a genetic predisposition for painting skill. If you don't want to paint because you are busy or would rather play games than paint, that's fine (and not lazy). However... saying "I want to paint but I'm no good so I'm not going to try" IS lazy.
ph34r wrote:You know that nobody starts out good at painting, right?
It's not a valid excuse to say "oh no, i'm not talented enough to paint my first model and have it win a golden daemon"
You aren't a bad person for not painting your army, you are just really lazy. Stop making excuses.
If you don't want to mess up your army, get a handful of models and practice.
Gornall wrote:
Seriously though... not painting is a conscious decision... no one has a genetic predisposition for painting skill. If you don't want to paint because you are busy or would rather play games than paint, that's fine (and not lazy). However... saying "I want to paint but I'm no good so I'm not going to try" IS lazy.
I disagree. I have been working on my SW for over 7 months. It's really bad.
Just because you have the ability to paint nicely doesn't mean other people are capable of it.
I cannot physically do it. My hands shake a lot when I concentrate hard and I ruin my models more than I paint them.
I keep working at it, hoping that I can improve, but I haven't yet.
I'm not lazy, I'm not making excuses.
There's no reason to be rude.
I'm glad you started this thread. While I prefer playing painted armies, I don't understand why people hate grey armies so much.
I would prefer to play an army painted to a basic standard than bare plastic, but bare plastic is better than some of the horrible painted models i have seen- at least you can see what the model is.
If your recieving a lot of comments about it maybe you could try a really basic scheme. it's hard to go wrong with 3/4 colours and a basic wash.
Yeah, I mean I have a TON of fluff in my army. I have written a 5 page bit of fluff about my Space Wolves army as well as for my Dwarves army. I'm currently working for one on my Empire army as well. I just hate that people think that I don't appreciate 40k and all its greatness because I can't paint. The only thing keeping my army gray right now is that I hate watching my beautiful models get their details melted by my crappy abilities.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That actually looks really cool. Dipping is the one thing I want to try and haven't been able to yet. I've just seen so many beautiful paint jobs that I hate to get a dipping system and find out I suck at it too. I've spend over 100 in GW brush and paints just to watch them sit in my modeling box or let my friends use/have them.
I work a full time+ job(as in 8 hours minimum 5 days a week, often more). I live on a rural property and we own a lot of animals that have to be taken care of, some of which my wife can't take care of on her own. I have interests other than 40k that I enjoy doing. I spend one night a week actually playing 40k, which is the part of the hobby I actually really like.
How, pray tell, am I supposed to fit in the huge amount of time required to first actually learn how to paint models and not make a complete mess(if that is even possible due to the fact that I have the artistic ability of a slowed monkey), then actually paint them? Nor do I have the money to double what I already paid for my armies to pay to have them painted.
I'd love to have painted armies. I really would. I think well painted armies look awesome. Between a lack of time, talent, and money it just isn't feasable for me to get all of what I own painted.
I disagree. I have been working on my SW for over 7 months. It's really bad.
Just because you have the ability to paint nicely doesn't mean other people are capable of it.
I cannot physically do it. My hands shake a lot when I concentrate hard and I ruin my models more than I paint them.
I keep working at it, hoping that I can improve, but I haven't yet.
I'm not lazy, I'm not making excuses.
There's no reason to be rude.
I apologize for painting with too broad of a brush. (Pardon the terrible pun)
Some people don't have a physical capacity for whaterver reason to paint and that's obviously understandable. That didn't seem to be the OP's situation though.
Khisanth Magus wrote:I work a full time+ job(as in 8 hours minimum 5 days a week, often more). I live on a rural property and we own a lot of animals that have to be taken care of, some of which my wife can't take care of on her own. I have interests other than 40k that I enjoy doing. I spend one night a week actually playing 40k, which is the part of the hobby I actually really like.
How, pray tell, am I supposed to fit in the huge amount of time required to first actually learn how to paint models and not make a complete mess(if that is even possible due to the fact that I have the artistic ability of a slowed monkey), then actually paint them? Nor do I have the money to double what I already paid for my armies to pay to have them painted.
I'd love to have painted armies. I really would. I think well painted armies look awesome. Between a lack of time, talent, and money it just isn't feasable for me to get all of what I own painted.
I'm a huge proponent of doing what you enjoy. At the end of the day this is a game with little plastic men. But at the same time, everyone is busy these days.
I prefer to paint painted armies. I'v played against gray armies with no problem, though.
However, I do advise you to at least put a modicum of effort. Give it a coat of spray paint. Maybe even invite a friend over to do some basic detail work; you do the broader, easy bits and he adds a touch here and there so that at least the guns are a different color.
I was horrible when I started. Thankfully, I was helping my friend with his ultramarines army and most of my early mistakes happened on his smurfs. If my army looks decent now, it's because some of his tacticals had to b redone.
You can't afford everything that you'd like. part of that is not having the time or ability to paint an army. I'd like to sing in musical theater. I have a great speaking voice, I can act a little, but I can't sing worth a crap. So I don't participate.
Now, 40k is a broad hobby, and lots of folks don't mind unpainted armies. God knows I've never busted balls over it. That said it's part of the hobby and if you can't or won't fully participate, you can't be too upset when you aren't fully accepted.
Given that there are techniques that are incredibly simple that will at least do something to the models, its' hard to argue that it's impossible to make the models look better. They may not look like what you'd like, but there are ways to do neat monochromatic washes and stuff over white primer that pretty much anybody could do.
Another technique is to clip and trim all the parts. Spray paint them separately, then assemble them with super glue, dob in a few details, wash and varnish, or magic dip.
This can work well with SMs because you've got legs, torso, arms, head, pauldrons and backpack all as separate pieces. Once assembled you only need paint the guns and a few bits of detail like markings on the pauldrons.. You can use transfers on the pauldrons to avoid fiddly detail painting.
The thing that puts a lot of people off painting is that they see these fantastic looking models in the Gallery and think every figure needs to be a Golden Daemon winner. It is far too high a standard for tabletop gaming.
You want your figures to look good en masse viewed from three to six feet away on the table top. Concentrate on a neat colour scheme and overall effect.
if anyone gives you s**t for a non painted army, screw em i like seeing players go out and play painting is a bonus and if ur broke just substitute your models, cant paint who cares playing warhammer is what keeps it going.
Thanks for the advice everyone .
Is there a good dipping system with clear instructions people would recommend? I'd really love to buy one to help me out when I can afford to.
Khisanth Magus wrote:How, pray tell, am I supposed to fit in the huge amount of time required to first actually learn how to paint models and not make a complete mess(if that is even possible due to the fact that I have the artistic ability of a slowed monkey), then actually paint them? Nor do I have the money to double what I already paid for my armies to pay to have them painted.
You don't have to be an artist to get good results. Just sit down, base coat red/blue/green, pick out the major details in silver/tin, and some other details in gold. Then spraypaint all of your bases with a green primer. Bam, fully painted and based mini.
Want even better looking guys? Prime them whatever color you want (UM Blue, for example) wash with brown or black, then detail. Takes less than 20 minutes per model.
I am not a good artist by any stretch of the imagination. But I have a decent looking CSM army using just the above methods.
Just search dipping. There are a lot of wood stains that work like dip (that's basicaly all dip is) and cost about a tenth of the price.
You can also do the same thing with GW washes, but this tecnique gives you a bit more control as you can use multiple colours. Just paint it a lighter shade of the colour you want then splash wash all over it.
it honestly isn't that bad. space marines are one of the easiest models to paint IMO. Just buy a new box of marines. paint one to the best you can do. Learn from that one what you did wrong what you want to do next. Paint the next one.
I went from
Basic out of the jar 5 paints
- started adding washes to my next models
- started adding highlights
- started watering down my paints
- started dry brushing.
I recently started free handing camo schemes on my IG army.
If you feel overburden with detail, then just stop at the very basic colors. Such as only painting the armor.
Spray paints. You can actually get them in just about any colour you can want. Space marines are the best for this, as the majority of the model is a single colour.
Awesome. I'll keep trying. Hopefully I'll be able to necro this thread with some pictures that aren't "look at this insult to the Space Wolves chapter on attempt 2000".
I like gray, I'm not even gonna lie. Grey and silver. I'm actually angry I painted some of my DE. The ones I left bare look way cooler. I'm not a bad painter, but looking at all these guys in bumming me out Too dark.
My problem is I am actually a decent painter, and have spent in excess of 5 hours on a single terminator librarian 0_0
Painting takes a hell long time, but it pays off. But if you cant thats cool, I like looking at grey models, it makes it simpler to identify their wargear and shows detail better. I wouldnt mind at all fighting a grey army.
It is hard to say painting models is an art, at least for most people. Art imply s that there is an act of creation from ones mind/soul, or a process of simple expression, which some more analytical minded people can have a hard time doing. However painting 40k models is more like paint between the lines but 3d, with some notable exceptions, I'm just speaking for the joe blow guy trying to make his models at least passable. Thats why I have a hard time accepting the argument of "I posses no art tallent so I can't paint".
The techniques required to obtain better than average models are for the most part techniques that can be easily enhanced with simple practice. No need to view a model in a way that has never been seen before, you just gotta stick blue were blue goes and green were green goes. Brush control, proper paint dilution, dry brushing, washing are all easily figured out with trial and error and trust me we have all gone through our own "really really bad" stage were we were trying and failing... gloriously. Highlighting can require a good eye for light but you really dont have to highlight to have passable models. In fact you don't really need to get too detailed with it, just use 3 colors if you just want "table top quality"
Now I hear all the guys that just don't have time, I don't usually have much time either but I have not been working for about 6 months so... I got time...
All I'm saying is if you got time, and a desire then don't just give up because your first attempts sucked, mine did too.
In the end though I have never had a problem playing unpainted minis, doesn't bother me in the least. However you may be confusing people that prefer painted armies and people who enjoy the painting side as HAAC (I like that lol.) type people, which they arn't. Of course there are those hobby elitists out there...
I'm not trying to be rude, but there really isn't any excuse to field unpainted miniatures. There are innumerable techniques out there that vastly speed up the process of painting and culminate a solid result; nothing award winning but solid nonetheless.
Dips have already been mentioned, washes is another one. All you really need to do is paint the basecoat, give the model a wash and then base it. Table-top standard, and when viewed as an army, still rather effective. I might put forward the proposition that you are trying to achieve too much too quickly; focus on the basics, (as silly as it sounds) your breathing, and don't put so much pressure on yourself. You'll find your hand naturally steadies itself as it gets used to the position/pressures of the brush. Its much like re-learning to write, except you find yourself frustrated because you KNOW you can do it, but your hand isn't letting you. Relax, play whale music, do whatever calms you down before picking up a brush; if you enter into painting with an aggressive mindset your movements will be sharp and erratic, and you'll just frustrate yourself further when the model turns out looking less-than-stellar.
Try getting one of the old paint pots, blobbing a lump of blu-tac onto the top, and sticking the miniature on that. You increase the surface area you can hold onto massively (you hold the pot rather than the model), which in turn helps with stabilisation.
There are LOADS of hints, tips, shortcuts and 'cheat' methods you can use to improve your painting. Simply plonking grey models down and saying 'I'm rubbish so I won't try' just doesn't cut it I'm afraid.
I couldn't care less if an army is painted. I care more about who I'm playing. Ill take a grey army with a cool owner than a guy with a pro painted army who I can't stand. If people want to whine about your unpainted army so much, prime them and put two dots of whatever colors on it, then there you go. Fully painted, three different colors, now let's play.
When I started painting in Rogue Trader, it was tough to paint an army. The paints required a lot of work, and there were only two colors of primer designed for minis: white and black.
Now that there is a spray primer in every color you could ever want, and dip, you literally need zero painting skill to have a decent looking army.
NuggzTheNinja wrote:When I started painting in Rogue Trader, it was tough to paint an army. The paints required a lot of work, and there were only two colors of primer designed for minis: white and black.
Now that there is a spray primer in every color you could ever want, and dip, you literally need zero painting skill to have a decent looking army.
I'm afraid I'm sitting at less than zero (models ending up worse than when I started) but I'll keep trying.
Different color primers might be a nice start. I'll hafta order it online or something though, as my FLGS only sells black and white :/
lucasbuffalo wrote:
I'm afraid I'm sitting at less than zero (models ending up worse than when I started) but I'll keep trying.
Different color primers might be a nice start. I'll hafta order it online or something though, as my FLGS only sells black and white :/
What army do you play? I've had good results with Krylon Fusion's Camo colors. It doesn't need to be spray specific to minis. I find that Army Painter, for example, really sucks ass.
Why do you participate in this hobby? At the end of the day its because you enjoy it and to have fun. If painting isn't fun for you, why do it?
That being said, unpainted models do detract from the atmosphere of the game. Also, could you push through the birthing pains of learning to paint (even doing something extremely basic like dipping), you may find that it will eventually make the hobby even more fun for you.
lucasbuffalo wrote:
Different color primers might be a nice start. I'll hafta order it online or something though, as my FLGS only sells black and white :/
Walmart, way cheeper. most $3-5 spary work fine. Then dip a brush in a different color, wipe off the paint by brushing it on cardboard/paper, now run the brush over the part of madel you want to stand out (3-5 time you will have to dip, wipe off, brush model). This will give OK results to uniform armys like SM or even Nids, not so much with Orks.
snake wrote:Why do you participate in this hobby? At the end of the day its because you enjoy it and to have fun. If painting isn't fun for you, why do it?
I can fully appreciate this stance, however, try seeing it from the other person's eyes. I buy my models one box at a time, and paint up *everything* I own before I buy more stuff. I've been working on my IG for over a year now and am still only sitting at 1390pts because I absolutely refuse to field unpainted stuff. I feel it detracts massively from the enjoyment of the game if there is just two forces of the same anonymous grey and/or black facing off against each other. If I'm not having fun because of the unpainted status of your army, why should I play you? If I can put this amount of effort into my models (and I fully realise I'm in the minority) then why can't my opponent(s) at the very least put down three colours and a base?
As has been already stated in this thread, there are plenty of methods, techniques, products, even services that can help you 'cheat' or even paint your models for you. There's also the vast, vast resource of the internet that is populated with tons of people who will provide hints, tips and tutorials on the very basics like drybrushing through to advanced techniques such as glazing, NMM, blending etc.
Again, simply saying 'I'm not good enough' doesn't cut it. Nothing worth doing is ever easy.
I understand why you wouldn't wanna paint. When I first started 15 years ago I sucked..BAD. i played fantasy dwarfs, and i remember painting Ungrim ironfist. His face was a blob of paint, with two blue specs for eyes, and the rest was solid colors. He looked sorta like this
That's where it all started. Took alot of practice and patience. But now I can do a decent job. Its not GD quality, but most paint jobs I do tend to get alot of compliments from people who don't even play warhammer.
I understand the pain. I played with grey soldiers for a long long time, cause i just wanted to play, cause painting was boring. But eventually, with enough dedication and practice, you turn what you 'have' to do into what you want to do. Just dont give up. Trust me. it'll be rewarding eventually.
lucasbuffalo wrote:I actually do play with them primed. I just considered this "gray" as it's so basic.
But if that makes people happy, then I'm good. lol.
Prime white + wash of whatever color can make your army seem at least decently painted. Prime army color + wash the appropriate accent color if you don't want a white base.
Jaon wrote:My problem is I am actually a decent painter, and have spent in excess of 5 hours on a single terminator librarian 0_0
Painting takes a hell long time, but it pays off. But if you cant thats cool, I like looking at grey models, it makes it simpler to identify their wargear and shows detail better. I wouldnt mind at all fighting a grey army.
That's all? I spend about five hours a night staring at my table
I don't understand why people feel incapable of achieving even a minimal quality paint job on their figures to the extent that grey plastic looks better.
I consider myself a good painter now but I'm under no illusion that there are many people far better than me, but I didn't get to where I am without years of practice and neither did they. My earlier figures were pretty basic paint jobs with little shading or highlighting, crude efforts certainly but that's where most have to start.
What I'm saying is that everyone has to start somewhere, and even if you are a beginner a can of spray, a few washes and some dry brushing can get you quite the bit of the way. That's not asking for artistic talent as such, only patience and care. Certainly no one should be regularly losing detail under paint. With time the rest will follow and you'll experiment and learn new techniques.
snake wrote:Why do you participate in this hobby? At the end of the day its because you enjoy it and to have fun. If painting isn't fun for you, why do it?
I can fully appreciate this stance, however, try seeing it from the other person's eyes. I buy my models one box at a time, and paint up *everything* I own before I buy more stuff. I've been working on my IG for over a year now and am still only sitting at 1390pts because I absolutely refuse to field unpainted stuff. I feel it detracts massively from the enjoyment of the game if there is just two forces of the same anonymous grey and/or black facing off against each other. If I'm not having fun because of the unpainted status of your army, why should I play you? If I can put this amount of effort into my models (and I fully realise I'm in the minority) then why can't my opponent(s) at the very least put down three colours and a base?
As has been already stated in this thread, there are plenty of methods, techniques, products, even services that can help you 'cheat' or even paint your models for you. There's also the vast, vast resource of the internet that is populated with tons of people who will provide hints, tips and tutorials on the very basics like drybrushing through to advanced techniques such as glazing, NMM, blending etc.
Again, simply saying 'I'm not good enough' doesn't cut it. Nothing worth doing is ever easy.
L. Wrex
This is pretty much the attitude that led me to create this thread in the first place. People who can't have fun playing a game with another nice person because the other person's army isn't painted. It just seems silly to me. I mean, I have essays about my army, poetry, and all kinds of fluff, you don't see me asking for a 3-5 page paper before playing a game. I personally believe army fluff is a big part of the game, the fluff is what got me into the game to begin with. But, to say that you can't play a game with a perfectly agreeable person just because they choose not to do the non-gaming hobby aspects that you think make the game better... seems a bit over the top. I guess you wouldn't have to play me or anyone else for that matter who doesn't enjoy that aspect of the game as much as you, but I just don't see it.
lucasbuffalo wrote:I really get annoyed at the hate all over Dakka about gray armies. I would LOVE to have a nicely painted army. However, I have NO talent. None whatsoever.
Clearly, the talent you possess now is all you will ever have, and hard work and practice will not make you a better painter.
Here is some inspiration for you.
This is one of the first miniatures I painted:
This is my current project:
Hey, I got a little better. That didn't just happen, I worked at it. Anything in life that is worth having is going to require hard work and effort. Keep at it, and you'll get better. Trust me.
My point is, having a gray army doesn't make you a bad person or gamer. I lack the talent to paint it myself, and I lack the cash/opportunity to have some one else paint it. I just hope maybe this message reminds people that a gray army doesn't mean the person is evil.
Sure, and I bet you're the kind of person whose other hobby is kicking puppies for distance.
Lol to Redbeard, great looking models btw! That dwarf is really sexy .
But yeah, I'm not giving up, my main issue is that I'm embarrassed of what I do paint. If my Space Wolves could talk, I'm pretty sure my blood claw would flip me the bird after seeing his paint job. My point is, I still like the game, but dislike the attitude that a lack of paint shows that I don't care about the hobby or my army or am a "bad" gamer.
Puppy punting is on my list of hobbies.
(JK, I love my dog.)
lucasbuffalo wrote:Lol to Redbeard, great looking models btw! That dwarf is really sexy .
But yeah, I'm not giving up, my main issue is that I'm embarrassed of what I do paint. If my Space Wolves could talk, I'm pretty sure my blood claw would flip me the bird after seeing his paint job. My point is, I still like the game, but dislike the attitude that a lack of paint shows that I don't care about the hobby or my army or am a "bad" gamer.
Puppy punting is on my list of hobbies.
(JK, I love my dog.)
One question - are you starting too 'big'? If you aren't good at painting, take time to get the basics down first. You're painting Space Marines, which is a good place to practice. Lots of broad, flat areas and defined edges.
Try a simple attampt at armour first. Paint them grey, give them a wash of badab black, then slowly paint grey back over the armour but avoiding the recesses which are not black due to the wash. Don't worry about making mistakes, especially with Space Marines. If there are a couple of duds in there while getting the basic techniques down, they'll blend into squads when they're on the table anyway.
Try to avoid things like skin and fur until you get the basics of the armour down. Even if you only have the basics of the armour painted, and the rest (things like wolf tails, bare heads, etc) repainted black, the army will look a lot btter on the table. Any army painted consistently, even to an average level, looks very good on the table.
Another thing is, if you don't want to keep rebuying models, get yourself some Simple Green All Purpose cleaner. It's perfect for paint stripping plastic models. Just drop the models you don't like in there, and take it out later, wash it with water and a toothbrush and repaint it. In fact, you could even practice this way. Buy a box of push fit Space Marines, paint them, if you aren't happy, strip them and repaint them. That way you don't ruin your 'good' models, and you have some models to test painting techniques on.
I just watched a video on the Army Painter's website store. It was truely informative. It did focus on their product line but I love thier primers and it does speed up painting armies alot. Their dip also turns base coated minis into nice table top stuff. I wished they would have shown a last step using a matt finish to tone down the gloss. If you don't think you can paint, please watch these. real simple stuff..
Don't try and paint because others told you that you must, or because they said " 'I lack the skills or time required to learn' isn't a good enough excuse," those aren't good reasons and you'll only end up hating that aspect of the hobby.
Paint stuff when you feel you want to. Start small and build up from there. Tiny, insignificant things are good steps forward. Paint the pauldron trim, or that flat part on the top of the backpack. Anything works. And don't let HAAC gamers who demand painted armies get you down. Don't play them (they'll probably refuse to play you anyway). Find people with whom you enjoy playing, and have fun with the hobby. That's all that really matters in the end.
I mean hell, I face opponents who field unlabeled paper circles as units, in games using scrounged household items as terrain, and we have a barrel of fun. It's all about how you treat the hobby.
I really appreciate the feedback, and I'm working on my marines again. They still suck, but I found one of my minis from when I started and there is some improvement (I can still see logos for example, lol) so I'll keep at it, when I feel I'm ready, and hope for the best.
Thanks all,
Luke
(P.S. Feel free to PM any easy starter material for painting such as the VERY cool one above. Most tutorials I find are way over my head.
Also, Loki, is Simple green re-usable?)
You want to play games no matter what. Some people want to play against painted armies no matter what. Throwing out absolute phrasing like "there is no excuse" is just silly. People have their preferences, and nobody has any right to enforce their particular version of the game on anybody, beyond the basic rules and any tournament/event rules that might apply. Life is way too short to be told what to do during your free time... we all get enough of that during work/education/whatever the hell else Dakkaites are doing these days.
I have a large necron army, about half painted so far, that i've been working on for years. Necrons aren't too bad to paint, and are hard to completely screw up.
My Orks are another story. I've been painting one boyz unit (31 models -both nob types) for upwards of a year, painting with what time my kids will allow me. 13 months later- 3 left, and half a trukk...
I would rather play a grey horde than not play. I do love playing a nicely painted foe (and his army ) but i'll not deny a game for unpainted troops. Non wysiwyg bugs me more, as melta guns have a habit of becoming flamers..
I'm not lazy. I'm painting my rump off. It just takes about 5 hours per model for me, not counting constant interruptions.
My 1250 pt games also take about 4 hours for similar reasons
That's not really a good reason to do it either, but may act as a catalyst to get you started on it though.
Simple solution is why do you want to play to being with? The answer being an obvious because you wanted to for whatever reason the same applies to everything you have done or will ever do. Want to paint well? Practice, get some cheap army men and paint the hell out of them to get some basic techniques down. Don't care about it at all? Don't have to paint. No one is holding a gun to your head telling you you must do it.
One thing to remember is you do not have to do every single technique you have read or heard about from the start. Start off with a couple then once you think you're ready move onto another. Start giving yourself a new challenge each time you start painting something. Eventually you'll be able to look back and see how much you have improved. The most important thing in the end is if you're happy with it, not everyone else.
Redbeard screw the Wazdakka model! Ur dwarf is pure epicness i don't know what it is about it but hot damn i love it! It really got it's own.... charm!
btw. Your Wazdakka is pretty awesome!
Anyway OP. I know how you feel. When i started out this game as Tau my painting skills were so bad that it was embarrassing to even show them puplic. I was so mad at myself that i trew my 3th edition battleforce under my bed. And now almost 10years later i found it again when i was cleaning and thought i could try it agian? I painted a single mini just for fun. It still sucked but instead of the embarrassing feeling i had when i was younger i wanted to compete with myself in making the next model more awesome then the last! Now i have gotten pretty decent. Even my friends is amazed at my speed to paint that well so fast!.
I know this is a bit of a story but i wanted to point out that instead of feeling embarrassing over your minis then try constantly compete with yourself by making the minis better and better hell i play Ork now and i use around 2hours pr Ork Boy
The ulgy truth is, everybody can paint very fine with training. Some need more than other, some will never reach Golden Demon style, everybody can reach ,,very fine".
Jaon wrote:My problem is I am actually a decent painter, and have spent in excess of 5 hours on a single terminator librarian 0_0
That's not that much for a character model.
I for one dislike grey armies. I think it's just a shame, and that you should still try. However, I respect that you may want to keep them grey for skill reasons. What I really dislike is playing against unpainted armies because my opponent was too lazy to paint, or even assemble his models properly.
In a small tourney once, my space marine opponent took a dozer blade out of his pocket and Blu-tacked it on a grey rhino. It hadn't just fallen off cause there weren't any glue marks...
I think one reason the OP is getting less sympathy than he might expect is because most long time hobbiests have heared variations of "I'm a perfectionist, so painting takes too long" or "I can't make it look good, so I don't bother."
It's not that these are impossible, it just seems to happen far more often than you'd expect, so you start to assume that there's a "real" reason.
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Dark Scipio wrote:The ulgy truth is, everybody can paint very fine with training. Some need more than other, some will never reach Golden Demon style, everybody can reach ,,very fine".
There are some people without the fine motor control to physically hold/control a paintbrush. They're going to be a pretty tiny minority though.
No shame in playing with greys, my problem is a bit different, I spend alot of time on every model and as such it has taken me alot of time to get my army done and as such I have played alot of games and tourneys with a majority of the models primed. I must agree on the dipping though, it could make it pretty acceptable for most since it gives contrast to the minis.
I'd say don't give up though, get some minis that are relatively easy to paint (I am looking at you, Tactical SM Squad!) and get to them occassionally. Sit down with your friends when they are painting and practice, as long as they are not lasholes that mocks your every move (if that is the case, I think I have found the problem...) they probably have alot of tips, since they started out on the same page as you. Just plain-painting and using washes works out nice too for that matter.
Just pick a couple of hours any evening of the week and just paint, as well. Have some throw away minis (again, tacticals) and just go to town on them, doesn't matter if it turns out ugly, if you keep at it your hand will get used to the tension and loosen up. How do I know this? Well, I had the same trouble with my own hands, but just doing nothing will do nothing to make anything better. When I started out it was just blobs of paint, truly ugly to lay eyes upon. A couple of years of just painting and not giving a crud as to how it turned out helped my hands steady and I started my Orks making decent Boyz. Nowadays, several years later, I win painting comps and my friends ask me for painting advice. Just don't commit a crime against yourself and stop it completely because people are giving you crud for it, keep at it and have patience and you might be painting real good one day.
Dark Scipio wrote:The ulgy truth is, everybody can paint very fine with training. Some need more than other, some will never reach Golden Demon style, everybody can reach ,,very fine".
There are some people without the fine motor control to physically hold/control a paintbrush. They're going to be a pretty tiny minority though.
Yeah, Stephen Hawking might have problems. People with Parkinson's might have issues. Most people can learn the motor control though. There are techniques that allow you to remove the shake from your hands, and other techniques (dry brushing, dipping) that don't require a great deal of motor control at all. The real key to improvement is simply to never stop trying, and do it until you're happy with it. Painting 100 marines is excellent practice, and when you're done, you've got a company of marines.
Yeah, if you're playing Ultramarines just spray them blue touch some color on details/weapons and then dip them. Workable tabletop quality in little time and with no skill needed.
I'm more a gamer and only a hobbyist in that I want to field painted armies for myself. My opinion on playing unpainted armies, whoopdidoo; no problem, it's a game. I play about twice a month and could care less what my opponent's army looks like as long as he/she's a decent person and wants to have some fun.
Don't let HAAC people try to tell you how to enjoy your property; tell them when they start buying your minis for you, they can tell you what to do with them.
Bottom line. It's a hobby when you're at home doing "hobby" work. It's a game the second you start putting terrain on the table; keep your hobby away from my game table.
Personally I know quite a few people you just don't have the time to learn how to paint or be able to paint a whole lot at a time. I have a friend in my home town that it take him 4 months to paint one model due to work, kids and time restrictions.
Alastergrimm wrote:Personally I know quite a few people you just don't have the time to learn how to paint or be able to paint a whole lot at a time. I have a friend in my home town that it take him 4 months to paint one model due to work, kids and time restrictions.
I obviously know what you mean, but allow me to ask a few rhetorical questions:
Does this person spend every minute of his free time painting? Meaning, in that four months, he did not watch a TV show, go to a movie, go out with friends, engage in a hobby, talk on the phone, read a book, etc.?
If the answer is no, which it assuredly is, then he's still choosing not to paint. Yes, some people have far more free time, and others have far less. But everybody has some, and while I completely understand and agree with prioritizing painting less than anything else, let's not pretend that he literally does not have the time to paint more than a single model.
I'm kind of a slow painter, so some parts of my army are still not painted, but every game there will be a hand full of orks with more paint on them than before.
Something I don't get is the "at least primed" attitude. In my oppinion grey/silver minis look WAY better than ones primed black. On an unprimed mini you can still see its armor details, its weapons, some gear and its face. When looking at a black coated model you see something black holding something else that's black too. I will only ever prime my units when I start painting them, and then first priority is to make all the important details visible again before actually caring about anything else.
Jidmah wrote:I'm kind of a slow painter, so some parts of my army are still not painted, but every game there will be a hand full of orks with more paint on them than before.
Something I don't get is the "at least primed" attitude. In my oppinion grey/silver minis look WAY better than ones primed black. On an unprimed mini you can still see its armor details, its weapons, some gear and its face. When looking at a black coated model you see something black holding something else that's black too. I will only ever prime my units when I start painting them, and then first priority is to make all the important details visible again before actually caring about anything else.
I quite agree with this, and also don't understand the attitude.
I suppose that it is true you can prime a color other than black. But I have to say that I much prefer my unpainted grey/silver models to the ones I have bought that were only primed black.
Well, in his defense, he is REALLY detail, I am talking about the type of guys that details rocks on the base of the model. I can say, that he does spend a Large Chunk of his spare time on painting, what little time he has. The man does work something like 70 hours a week and still finds a little time for his kids. I agreed He could CHOOSE to paint over his kids, but I don't think anyone in their right mind would do that. I mean there are limits one should keep with their hobbies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is Alastergrimm btw, My wife left her account on.
I don't really have a huge problem with playing against gray armies, but perhaps if you don't want to paint the models or figure out a way to have them painted, Warhams isn't the hobby for you.
I started 40K just over a year ago. When I started I made it perfectly clear to the others (who were encouraging me to play) that I had no intention of painting my models. I'm a gamer, I said if I hear any complaints about unpainted models I walk.
So, 12 months later I have built up around 4000pts of Orks plus some Space Wolves and Necrons with around 90% of my armies painted, maybe 20% of the painted models need finishing off, eg. bases & wash. I'm not saying they are well painted, just painted.
But considering my words 12 months ago I would never have a problem with anyone playing with unpainted models.
Not meant to push you or anything, if you really don't want to paint then that is your choice.
It's a game of little plastic/metal soldiers after all, so noone can judge someone. If you however want to try to paint, you can open a modelling blog and a lot of friendly people will give you good advice.
I think most of us went through a period where poeple laughed at their models/ painting skills.
ph34r wrote:You know that nobody starts out good at painting, right?
It's not a valid excuse to say "oh no, i'm not talented enough to paint my first model and have it win a golden daemon"
You aren't a bad person for not painting your army, you are just really lazy. Stop making excuses.
If you don't want to mess up your army, get a handful of models and practice.
Gornall wrote:
Seriously though... not painting is a conscious decision... no one has a genetic predisposition for painting skill. If you don't want to paint because you are busy or would rather play games than paint, that's fine (and not lazy). However... saying "I want to paint but I'm no good so I'm not going to try" IS lazy.
I disagree. I have been working on my SW for over 7 months. It's really bad.
Just because you have the ability to paint nicely doesn't mean other people are capable of it.
I cannot physically do it. My hands shake a lot when I concentrate hard and I ruin my models more than I paint them.
I keep working at it, hoping that I can improve, but I haven't yet.
I'm not lazy, I'm not making excuses.
There's no reason to be rude.
My friend has a similar issue where he has a tic and can not keep his hands steady to paint.
OP, I think you are right with what you are saying. It is your decision and you should not feel pressured to paint. Some people have a disproportionate skill vs standard and for them painting is not worth it. If you pay the hight prices for the pieces and you think they look better gray than if you painted them, that's fine with me.
You ever think of having other people paint them for you in exchange for the rides and small favors you seem to be doing them? If it is the same person consistently you could ask them to paint your models in exchange for the rides, you could maybe buy him lunch wile you guys are gaming ect. That's what I have worked out with my friend. Just something to think about.
Need some kind of gray pride or something to make this feel less frowned on.
I will propose some kind of Gray pride parade at my local GW. (like armies on parade)
Dark Scipio wrote:
There are some people without the fine motor control to physically hold/control a paintbrush. They're going to be a pretty tiny minority though.
One of two guys that sculpts all of the LotR miniatures only has one hand.
This reminds me of the Drawing I class I took in college. We were asked to draw a person who posed for us. Half the class drew stick figure people. They didn't even try. Seriously, they drew a single line for a leg. I laughed my ass off at their attempts because they were being lazy. Seriously, right now look down at your thumb and then at the backslash key on your keyboard. Do you seriously see any resemblance at all?!
If you have a limited amount of time to put together models and play the game, then I understand. I usually don't have enough time for all aspects of the hobby myself, but I would rather paint than play the game. However it takes so skill to paint a mini. For example, if you are playing blood angels, spray paint them white, base coat in blood red and then give them a black wash. Some people want a Golden Demon army and get depressed when they can't get nowhere near that quality. So it is either all or nothing for them. They choose to not even paint the mini for fear of some ass saying their horrible paintjob looks horrible.
When I first got into the hobby, I bought some genestealers off a guy. I stripped all the paint off of them except for one. I kept it because at that time I thought it looked awesome. I wanted to keep it as a "marker" of sorts. When I repainted the stealers I thought they looked even better than before. Looking back at the model now, I think it looks horrible. I think the ones that I repainted look horrible as well. The ones I am painting this week, will look horrible eventually, because I feel like I am getting better with each mini that I paint.
Dark Scipio wrote:
There are some people without the fine motor control to physically hold/control a paintbrush. They're going to be a pretty tiny minority though.
One of two guys that sculpts all of the LotR miniatures only has one hand.
Seriously, one hand.
He seems to do ok.
There is a huge difference between having on hand that you can fully control (plus a fully useful stump) and having poor neurological control over two hands. One fully useful hand is still useful.
It's the same reason a person with a prosthetic leg might be able to run, while a person with Deep Vein Thrombosis can't.
mugginns wrote:I don't really have a huge problem with playing against gray armies, but perhaps if you don't want to paint the models or figure out a way to have them painted, Warhams isn't the hobby for you.
I'm seriously glad you aren't at my gaming store, because if you said I shouldn't play a game like 40k because I can't find the time and motivation to paint my "little plastic soldiers" as others have called them, I would probably be tempted to punch you in the face.
Part of the reason I don't paint is because of lack of skill. It's not really that I have a lot of trouble painting (I do sometimes but not entirely). My problem is my lack of vision for color and that's something I've lived with all my life. To me a color scheme can sound great but I can't really picture it in my head and when I put it on a squad it winds up looking terrible.
It takes me roughly two hours to paint a single Space Wolf. Full time job, child and wife, and full time college. It's all I can do to squeeze in a few games a week and build terrain (since no one else I play with will).
I think from here on out I will just be leaving things grey. The time investment isn't worth it to me. In the time I paint one marine I could have built 2-3 pieces of terrain - sure they may not be painted either but at some point the talented painter in our group is going to have to do it. Or I could've watched a movie or gotten the tar beat out of me by my two year old. I could do some homework - but I'd probably paint before I did that.
mugginns wrote:I don't really have a huge problem with playing against gray armies, but perhaps if you don't want to paint the models or figure out a way to have them painted, Warhams isn't the hobby for you.
I'm seriously glad you aren't at my gaming store, because if you said I shouldn't play a game like 40k because I can't find the time and motivation to paint my "little plastic soldiers" as others have called them, I would probably be tempted to punch you in the face.
One of these days, I'm going to play the Dakka drinking game, where I take a drink everytime somebody mentions phsyical violence.
juraigamer wrote:If you never painted at all after having them for a few years, I might say something but it wouldn't stop the game.
If all else fails, save up and get your models bulk commissioned for cheap.
That's the direction I think I am going to take. I have two solid armies now (about 3500 points total) and started playing in September. My Necrons can rot for all I care right now but I do have an unemployed brother who is an excellent painter. I'm sure $3-4 per guy would sound pretty reasonable to him.
AlannahGrimm wrote:Well, in his defense, he is REALLY detail, I am talking about the type of guys that details rocks on the base of the model. I can say, that he does spend a Large Chunk of his spare time on painting, what little time he has. The man does work something like 70 hours a week and still finds a little time for his kids. I agreed He could CHOOSE to paint over his kids, but I don't think anyone in their right mind would do that. I mean there are limits one should keep with their hobbies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is Alastergrimm btw, My wife left her account on.
You shouldn't be painting over your kids. You should always strip and prime your kids before painting.
AlannahGrimm wrote:Well, in his defense, he is REALLY detail, I am talking about the type of guys that details rocks on the base of the model. I can say, that he does spend a Large Chunk of his spare time on painting, what little time he has. The man does work something like 70 hours a week and still finds a little time for his kids. I agreed He could CHOOSE to paint over his kids, but I don't think anyone in their right mind would do that. I mean there are limits one should keep with their hobbies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is Alastergrimm btw, My wife left her account on.
You shouldn't be painting over your kids. You should always strip and prime your kids before painting.
Eh. They tend to cry when you prime them and strip them. But they think the brush tickles so it's easier to deal with then screaming kids.
mugginns wrote:I don't really have a huge problem with playing against gray armies, but perhaps if you don't want to paint the models or figure out a way to have them painted, Warhams isn't the hobby for you.
I'm seriously glad you aren't at my gaming store, because if you said I shouldn't play a game like 40k because I can't find the time and motivation to paint my "little plastic soldiers" as others have called them, I would probably be tempted to punch you in the face.
I'm glad you aren't at my gaming store, you seem really immature
In the end this is a hobby. Not painting any of your models ever (or having them painted, or even just making a stab at basecoating everything) means anybody who ever plays you (note: if you're painting slowly, you're still painting!) is not seeing the battlefield how they want to see it.
Come on man, if someone is that upset over your unpainted figs.
Then they are the one with the prob.
Just say it to yourself a few times and you will start to feel better.
And most of all,just give that crap right back at them. They will back off or leave...its a win ether way.
If they are smart they will just play the game, as that is all it is after all.
Never painting your army is kind of like showing up a semi-formal wedding reception in jeans: yeah, if you bring a gift and do the chicken dance and wish the couple well and try to hook up with the brides friend, you've really done what your supposed to do. Nobody is going to stop you, but it's still tacky.
There is one thing I have a hard time reconciling with in these kinds of discussions.
It always seems like people are required to have some sort of excuse to "legitimately" be allowed not to paint, preferably a physical handicap of some sort. Every thing else is quickly equalled to anything from "laziness" to "actively trying to spoil my pleasant WH40K-experience".
This wonderful game of ours have several facets.
I might mention The Game itself, The Fluff and The Painting as some, but not all, of these.
Why is it that nobody complains if my opponent plays badly (not emphasizing The Game)? Why doesn't anybody say; "He plays so badly I will find somebody else to play"?
Why is it that people aren't required to come up with some fluff for their army? Or write fanfiction?
Why can't people just accept that while some enjoy one (or several) aspects of the game and neglect others, other people might enjoy (and neglect) different things about the game.
Think about how you would describe a person saying that he wouldn't play a given person because he is bad at the game. Think about if that description might apply to yourself, had the circumstances been slight altered.
Why isn't it "legitimate" to simply say; "I don't enjoy painting and find it rather pointless to prioritize" when it is perfectly OK to say; "I don't attempt to play 100%/win every time I play as I prefer the social aspect of gaming"?
The above doesn't apply as much to the OP as it does to the gaming community as a whole.
Jaon wrote:My problem is I am actually a decent painter, and have spent in excess of 5 hours on a single terminator librarian 0_0
Painting takes a hell long time, but it pays off. But if you cant thats cool, I like looking at grey models, it makes it simpler to identify their wargear and shows detail better. I wouldnt mind at all fighting a grey army.
Haha, I wish I could say that 5 hours was a long time on one model for me. I usually don't keep track, but for giggles I clocked 10 guardians and their platform in at about 100 hours.
It takes about 1000 hours of practice to become good at something, if I recall the scientific anecdote correctly, and this was in conjunction with repetitive art such as music (specifically piano). I'd imagine that it's going to be a bit more than 1000 hours for figure painting since it's broken up in so very many different stages.
In either case. I'd say that as long as you do your best, it's good enough. If that means a 90% grey army with the other 10% looking 'orrible, that's cool as long as that's the best you can do with the skill and time you have to spend on the hobby.
Of course, there are short cuts to make the dull grey look a tiny bit better on the table, and it's nice if you show the token appreciation of taking one or two of them.
If, on the other hand your army is grey because you just can't be arsed, than that's far from fine - that army is a two-finger salute to everyone who makes the effort.
If it's because your confidence in your skill is low, on the other hand, we'll have to work on the confidence part.
P.S. There's industrial robots that can handle painting
Steelmage99 wrote:It always seems like people are required to have some sort of excuse to "legitimately" be allowed not to paint, preferably a physical handicap of some sort. Every thing else is quickly equalled to anything from "laziness" to "actively trying to spoil my pleasant WH40K-experience".
By some, but certainly not all people.
Why is it that nobody complains if my opponent plays badly (not emphasizing The Game)? Why doesn't anybody say; "He plays so badly I will find somebody else to play"?
Actually I think this happens more than you think. Maybe not explicity, but I stopped going to open play at various stores, on various days, because I knew I wouldn't get a challenging game.
Why is it that people aren't required to come up with some fluff for their army? Or write fanfiction?
Because reading fluff/fiction is an active process, while seeing a painted army is passive. You can also enjoy the look of a painted army while playing against it. You can't really read fluff while playing.
Why can't people just accept that while some enjoy one (or several) aspects of the game and neglect others, other people might enjoy (and neglect) different things about the game.
I think most people do. But if the aspect of the hobby you enjoy is the visual aspect of watching two painted armies on the table, you need to find somebody with a painted army.
Think about how you would describe a person saying that he wouldn't play a given person because he is bad at the game.
Think about if that description might apply to yourself, had the circumstances been slight altered.
As I said, I think this goes on. I've turned down games (over a store forum, not in person) because I knew I would there would not be a tactical challenge worth driivng down and giving up four hours for.
Why isn't it "legitimate" to simply say; "I don't enjoy painting and find it rather pointless to prioritize" when it is perfectly OK to say; "I don't attempt to play 100%/win every time I play as I prefer the social aspect of gaming"?
You're confusing quality for effort here. Not painting an army isn't like not playing well. Painting an army poorly is like playing poorly. Not painting is like not playing, and nobody complains that htey have to play a guy that doesn't play.
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Mahtamori wrote:It takes about 1000 hours of practice to become good at something, if I recall the scientific anecdote correctly, and this was in conjunction with repetitive art such as music (specifically piano). I'd imagine that it's going to be a bit more than 1000 hours for figure painting since it's broken up in so very many different stages.
BlueDagger wrote:
Haha, I wish I could say that 5 hours was a long time on one model for me. I usually don't keep track, but for giggles I clocked 10 guardians and their platform in at about 100 hours.
Perseverance is much more important to painting than any other artistic mumbo-jumbo.
R10T wrote:If your not planning on ever playing any tourneys, don't sweat it. They will be easier to sell later.
While this is very true and actually outstanding advice...
I prefer playing against painted armies. In many cases I find that the type of person who takes the time to paint their models is going to give me a more challenging and enjoyable game than someone with a gray and metal flavor of the month army. That's based on purely anecdotal evidence and obviously excludes those who perhaps just bought their armies or something similar.
mugginns wrote:
In the end this is a hobby. Not painting any of your models ever (or having them painted, or even just making a stab at basecoating everything) means anybody who ever plays you (note: if you're painting slowly, you're still painting!) is not seeing the battlefield how they want to see it.
Your hobby is my game. Like I said; once you start unpacking your minis and placing them on the table, it's a game...unless you know a hobby that requires dice rolling and arguing over rules.
Well I wouldnt refuse to play someone with a gray army, but I think I enjoy the game more if Im facing off against a painted army. This has simply to do with me getting more into the right feeling when its not just a couple of gray blobs in front of me.
However, I think you should just keep playing your gray army and slowly paint one model at a time at the side. Number those models (under the black platform they stand on), and when you have painted maybe 5-10 models I'm sure you'll see that you have made some progress when you compare, just dont expect it to be GD standard.
If you still dont feel like this is your thing, try some dipping or heavy washing techniques.
Polonius wrote:Never painting your army is kind of like showing up a semi-formal wedding reception in jeans: yeah, if you bring a gift and do the chicken dance and wish the couple well and try to hook up with the brides friend, you've really done what your supposed to do. Nobody is going to stop you, but it's still tacky.
Apple, meet Orange. Seriously? Equating an informal table-top game to a serious, hopefully, once in a lifetime event in someone's life is ludicrous. I'm happy if my opponent has bathed and doesn't have a neckbeard with crumbs falling out of it, I could care less what their toys look like.
If someone gets so butt-hurt over another person's little plastic army men being unpainted, they really need to take a long look at their life and the priorities therein.
Polonius wrote:Never painting your army is kind of like showing up a semi-formal wedding reception in jeans: yeah, if you bring a gift and do the chicken dance and wish the couple well and try to hook up with the brides friend, you've really done what your supposed to do. Nobody is going to stop you, but it's still tacky.
Apple, meet Orange. Seriously? Equating an informal table-top game to a serious, hopefully, once in a lifetime event in someone's life is ludicrous. I'm happy if my opponent has bathed and doesn't have a neckbeard with crumbs falling out of it, I could care less what their toys look like.
If someone gets so butt-hurt over another person's little plastic army men being unpainted, they really need to take a long look at their life and the priorities therein.
Agnost, meet strawman.
I'm not equating the events, I'm equating the behavior. Wargaming is a hobby, and a culture, and for many people, painting armies is a big part of the culture. I've never been to a wedding where they'll toss a person out for not dressing properly. But people are allowed to think that it's tacky, right? Well, if they social expectation for gaming is to paint, and you don't, why shouldn't people think that you're flouting convention?
I'm glad you don't care if your opponent's army is painted. I prefer it, but I really don't mind at all either. The point is that some people do. And I dont' thinke they get "butt-hurt" so much as they figure they can spend their gaming time doing what they enjoy: playing painted armies. If a person's priorities are to play the kind of games they like, and if they can't, to persue other interests rather than play unpainted, I think that's a fine way to be.
agnosto wrote:If someone gets so butt-hurt over another person's little plastic army men being unpainted, they really need to take a long look at their life and the priorities therein.
I don't think it's that broad of an issue.
One can prefer to play against painted armies without having skewed life priorities.
Polonius wrote:If a person's priorities are to play the kind of games they like, and if they can't, to persue other interests rather than play unpainted, I think that's a fine way to be.
Sometimes I wonder if Polonius would take a small stipend so that I can tell him what I'm thinking and he can type it out with this type of eloquence and then I'll post that instead.
agnosto wrote:If someone gets so butt-hurt over another person's little plastic army men being unpainted, they really need to take a long look at their life and the priorities therein.
I don't think it's that broad of an issue.
One can prefer to play against painted armies without having skewed life priorities.
I'd argue that if you have a busy life, only playing games of 40k that you'll really enjoy seems like having a great sense of priorities.
Monster Rain wrote:Sometimes I wonder if Polonius would take a small stipend so that I can tell him what I'm thinking and he can type it out with this type of eloquence and then I'll post that instead.
Which is to say, +1.
The feds beat you to it. I literally spend all day writing explanations for why people are or aren't disabled. Other people make the call, I write it up.
lucasbuffalo wrote:That actually looks really cool. Dipping is the one thing I want to try and haven't been able to yet. I've just seen so many beautiful paint jobs that I hate to get a dipping system and find out I suck at it too. I've spend over 100 in GW brush and paints just to watch them sit in my modeling box or let my friends use/have them.
I thoroughly recommend you try this. I'm not TOO bad at painting, but not great. However, I certainly don't have time to spend painting all the details on models. Things like drybrudhing, washing, dipping, and discovering decent spraypaint ranges changed the whole way I work. Myself and friends have even tried to figure out the best ways of bringing whole armies up to tabletop standard in a weekend.
One thing to remember is that painting is also a way to personalise your army - which is another fun element to the game (assuming, since your armies are grey, you haven't tried it). And that, there are other things involved in painting that you might enjoy - maybe you'll find that you like doing scenic bases, for example.
Before I start an army, I figure out exactly what I need to 'instantly' get my models to tabletop standard without having to so any real 'detail painting'. Usually, these involve techniques that require no real painting skill to achieve.
Post the army you want to paint here or the colour scheme you've failed to achieve, and I'm sure I (and others) could suggest ways that you could end up with a painted army without having to spend ages developing painting skill!
Nerd-snobbery? Wow, I've heard of everything and here I thought seeing fried cockroaches for sale by street vendors in Bangkok was going to be the end.
I've honestly never heard anyone demean someone else in the FLGS that I visit because they had an unpainted army nor have I ever heard of anyone refusing to play that person. The closest I've ever been was someone mentioned how shiney my Ogres are (I dip them after painting) to which I responded that I like them shiney, kind of like body builders but with girth.
To be quite honest, regardless of what your personal convictions are on the subject, it's not exactly polite (some might even say "tacky") to ridicule someone for not sharing your views.
I can see both sides of the argument and understand both perspectives; however, I will never attempt to climb up on a horse high enough to try and tell another person what they should do with their property.
To be honest, I still have tons of unpainted minis. I am making progress however. I wouldn't ever refuse to play someone because their models were unpainted. However, my painted armies will never see the battlefield with a dreadknight
I'm not a good painter, either. I have used dipping and army painter basecoats to my advantage, though. I really think people should make a good effort before giving up. I've found in the past that the people who say "I don't want to paint and you can't make me I WANT TO PLAY THE GAME!" are usually the types that make it un-fun to play against.
Your hobby is my game. Like I said; once you start unpacking your minis and placing them on the table, it's a game...unless you know a hobby that requires dice rolling and arguing over rules.
Yeah, but you'd never ever put the minis on the table if you couldn't put them together. Hobby element right there! Might as well play with paper soldiers, lol.
agnosto wrote:Nerd-snobbery? Wow, I've heard of everything and here I thought seeing fried cockroaches for sale by street vendors in Bangkok was going to be the end.
I've honestly never heard anyone demean someone else in the FLGS that I visit because they had an unpainted army nor have I ever heard of anyone refusing to play that person. The closest I've ever been was someone mentioned how shiney my Ogres are (I dip them after painting) to which I responded that I like them shiney, kind of like body builders but with girth.
To be quite honest, regardless of what your personal convictions are on the subject, it's not exactly polite (some might even say "tacky") to ridicule someone for not sharing your views.
I can see both sides of the argument and understand both perspectives; however, I will never attempt to climb up on a horse high enough to try and tell another person what they should do with their property.
I don't think anybody is. I'm not advocating that anybody call somebody out on the subject, but there's a pretty big gap between saying "sorry, I prefer to play painted armies. No offense," and ridiculing somebody.
Practice with a few minis your willing to sacrifice so to get an idea on how ya wanna paint em (if ever), and once ya do start painting your army... take all the time you need.
Being an ork player, i have a long way to go till my army is done... so my thoughts are why rush it!
Enjoy your army and by all means... practice (if ya want )
Polonius wrote:
I don't think anybody is. I'm not advocating that anybody call somebody out on the subject, but there's a pretty big gap between saying "sorry, I prefer to play painted armies. No offense," and ridiculing somebody.
And that would be fine but I was operating off of the OP's statement (emphasis mine):
I'm a really pleasant person I like to think. I give all my friends rides to the gaming store, and even some players that I don't know very well at my LGS have gotten a ride from me in the past. At my LGS having a gray army is "lame" but it definitely isn't considered a sign that some one is a bad person as it seems to be on Dakka. I know the responses to this, I've read that before. "Just pay some one to paint it." Unfortunately, the only painters who paint up much better than my crappy painting are either too busy to do my paint job or charge more than the models themselves to do so.
My point is. I won't think someone lazy or any other label simply because they prioritize their life differently from my own. If he/she were to say something like the above while we were playing, I might ask him/her if they would like a few pointers from another, mostly hopeless, painter on some shortcuts and other means to make a passably painted, tabletop army. The only way to get through life, collectively, is to support one another and tearing someone down is not constructive.
Every time this topic comes up there are the inevitable hobbyists that deride the non-painters and tell them to quit or stop being lazy or even tell them to reorganize their life priorities. To me that is the pinnacle of egoism; to think that a person is so inferior that they can be told how to organize their life by another individual. Many people here have offered support and some constructive comments which the OP might take to heart and implement; however, not one of us is so perfect that we can deign to tell them how to live their lives or what they should do with their time or their property.
I've said my view as clearly as I'm able. It's fine if others do not agree, that's one of the great things about living in a (mostly) free society, we can disagree with each other. I'll get off of my soapbox now.
First off I'm not saying this is true in all cases, ok? I think part of the problem is that people continually compare their painting skills to the high quality painting that they see on the websites and get discouraged very easily when they can't match it. What I will say to anybody who feels that they can't paint very well is this; aim for a neat paint job, as long as each colour is in its right area don't give a damn about painstaking detail. A tidy army will look just as good on the battlefield as a well detailed one. C'mon, you at least need to make the effort to paint to get good at it. Plus it looks better on the tabletop. I knew a player who had a Dark Elf army black undercoated. The problem on the table was that his opponent had to continually ask what each unit was thus slowing the game down.
Playing orks, I feel your pain. Now, i've only painted a few models, and though they aren't up to Team 'eavy metal's standards, i'm very proud of them. However, most of my army is gray right now. The only thing I can do to keep a gray army off the table is to have them already based. Meaning a black army, instead of a gray one. Which seems to work for the people I play against.
agnosto wrote:
Every time this topic comes up there are the inevitable hobbyists that deride the non-painters and tell them to quit or stop being lazy or even tell them to reorganize their life priorities. To me that is the pinnacle of egoism; to think that a person is so inferior that they can be told how to organize their life by another individual.
has that actually happened? I think the word lazy was used once in this thread, and that was in the context of saying that skill isn't inherent, and needs to be developed.
Nobody is telling anybody how to structure their life. there is sort of a collective calling of BS that there are people who literally do not have the time to paint, but what I've read in this thread has rarely been vicious or judgemental. Maybe I've missed it.
Yeah, there's not a lot of sympathy here for busy people. But I think the comments have been measured, not derisive.
agnosto wrote:
Every time this topic comes up there are the inevitable hobbyists that deride the non-painters and tell them to quit or stop being lazy or even tell them to reorganize their life priorities. To me that is the pinnacle of egoism; to think that a person is so inferior that they can be told how to organize their life by another individual.
has that actually happened? I think the word lazy was used once in this thread, and that was in the context of saying that skill isn't inherent, and needs to be developed.
Nobody is telling anybody how to structure their life. there is sort of a collective calling of BS that there are people who literally do not have the time to paint, but what I've read in this thread has rarely been vicious or judgemental. Maybe I've missed it.
Yeah, there's not a lot of sympathy here for busy people. But I think the comments have been measured, not derisive.
That's true but I wasn't just talking about this thread. People are telling the OP what to do; don't watch TV or a movie, make time, etc. If, for whatever reason a person doesn't want to paint, accept it and move on.
I would think that by the simple fact that the OP's impression that posters on Dakka think that non-painters are bad people is a fair indication that not all responses in these types of threads is measured.
As a community, I think we need to be inclusive because it just doesn't make sense for nerds in a niche market to be exclusive. It's kind of like the wargamer vs. furry vs. LARPer debates.
@Mr Nobody,
He could always do Necrons and dip the warriors in chrome paint.... easiest army paint-job ever.
Shame is that most elitists would say those Necrons aren't even barely table top quality.
I'm a big fan of the theory that it's hard enough to find a group of 40k players. Play with whoever you can as long as they're not a moron or completely obnoxious.
This thread has inspired me. I was going to paint my Space Wolves very slowly but I'll do what I really want to and instead start a third grey army.
stalkerzero wrote:Shame is that most elitists would say those Necrons aren't even barely table top quality.
It sounds here more like you're arguing against a made-up boogeyman as an excuse. That Necron looks great. The fact that such a paintjob can be cranked out quickly is great news for the lazy painter (like me).
I think it's well worth learning some basic speed techniques for anyone.
Starting with a can of colored spray primer (like the army painters stuff, or even GW or PP white), doing some basic single-color basecoating, then adding a little drybrushing and a head-to-toe wash, you can produce a basic tabletop quality army in literally a few hours' work.
I'm not a commissioned painter (like the guys who crank out entire high-quality armies every week), but I could certainly get 1500-2000pts of a SM army done in a week while working full time and spending time with the wife, starting with assembled models with the mold lines having been cleaned.
Almost anyone can do the same with a little bit of organization and learning a few simple tips online.
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Polonius wrote:I'm not equating the events, I'm equating the behavior. Wargaming is a hobby, and a culture, and for many people, painting armies is a big part of the culture. I've never been to a wedding where they'll toss a person out for not dressing properly. But people are allowed to think that it's tacky, right? Well, if they social expectation for gaming is to paint, and you don't, why shouldn't people think that you're flouting convention?
As I'm sure you're aware, there's an entire culture of historical wargamers who traditionally don't put an unpainted model on the table for a game. It's just not done. A friend of mine switched over to doing that from playing 40k, and it was an adjustment. There's a group of historicals guys who play most weeks at my local store on the same night as my 40k night; they play a bunch of different systems and scales. American Civil War 25mm, Napoleonics in 15mm or 25mm, WWII 15mm, English Civil War 25mm, etc. I see them bring different armies nearly every week, and they're all fully painted. Meanwhile here I sit having played WH & 40k for over ten years, and I only have four fully painted armies. Really gives you a different perspective.
I've tried my hand again (thanks for the encouragement and tips) and with free hand painting, I'm actually noticing improvements. My detail work is still garbage (shaky hand mcshakerson) but, with some calm breathing, etc. even that is improving. Pics when I get home again and can access my camera.
If I recall correctly, How to Paint Citadel Minis suggests cupping your hands in a certain way so they're braced together, and any unsteadiness is mitigated by the fact that they both move roughly the same because of it, and can be further mitigated by bracing your hands against a table, though the leaning over involved in that hurts your back after a while.
^
I do this the whole time as I paint. Painting is all in the wrist, so stabilizing your hands as much as possible is the best way to help improve your paint job.
Also a magnifier lamp is a great deal of help, and really helps out by preventing eye strain.
LOL I'm pretty bad at painting so with my nids I primed them black and painted their carapaces 3 different shades of brown/bone and gave them red eyes and figure its good enough haha
If somebody tabled an unpainted army I wouldnt rip on them cause maybe they just havent had the time.... so who cares?
I have ex-druggie friends (rehabbed tho) who are currently playing CSMs, and painting em up. One of them is a perfectionist to boot, and really gets upset when she can't paint her minis perfectly.
Best thing - Painting surface should be a table, or desk. Preferably with a disposable surface on top. I now use laminated plastic sheets over my homemade paint station.
Have a daylight light or be next to a window so you get a good source of light. Don't be in a basement or in a cupboard or so on.
Have your painting table uncluttered and tidied. Makes it so much easier.
Blu-tac models on a cork. Then blu-tac cork to table. Paint using that, you can get to any crevice with it.
Don't get upset, or angry with yourself at results, the Heavy metal team didn't learn their trade in a day or a year. Most modelists take probably 18 to 24 months to learn their optimal painting techniques.
lucasbuffalo wrote:I've tried my hand again (thanks for the encouragement and tips) and with free hand painting, I'm actually noticing improvements. My detail work is still garbage (shaky hand mcshakerson) but, with some calm breathing, etc. even that is improving. Pics when I get home again and can access my camera.
Well if you get a lot of caffeine in your system that can cause you to have shaky hands when painting. Try not to drink a bunch of Mt. Dew before you start painting.
Also do you know why Michael J. Fox makes the best milkshakes?
lucasbuffalo wrote:I've tried my hand again (thanks for the encouragement and tips) and with free hand painting, I'm actually noticing improvements. My detail work is still garbage (shaky hand mcshakerson) but, with some calm breathing, etc. even that is improving. Pics when I get home again and can access my camera.
After reading through this thread it's good to hear that you've seen some improvement
Painting 40k is like playing guitar, NO ONE IS GOOD AT FIRST. If they say they are its a liers, some people learn faster or get better on there own faster than some people. Me im no GD winner probly never will be but im happy with everything i have painted and im proud stuck with it for so many years, about 12 or 13 years now the same length i have been playing guitar and im no jimmi H but i can jam and im happy with it, its all about enjoying yourself. If folks diss you cuz your army is either badly painted, grey or just primed there just annoying so i wouldnt let them bother you.
and in the words of the late great JH
"Sometimes you want to give up the guitar, you'll hate the guitar. But if you stick with it, you're gonna be rewarded."
Think that about says what painting 40k is like, only guitarist style lol.
mugginns wrote:I don't really have a huge problem with playing against gray armies, but perhaps if you don't want to paint the models or figure out a way to have them painted, Warhams isn't the hobby for you.
I'm seriously glad you aren't at my gaming store, because if you said I shouldn't play a game like 40k because I can't find the time and motivation to paint my "little plastic soldiers" as others have called them, I would probably be tempted to punch you in the face.
No threats of violence, please. It's not acceptable behaviour in this site.
The only reason I have any objection to unpainted armies is due to a game I played where I saw unpainted BT and unpainted BA assaulting each other, grey marines fighting grey marines suddenly makes deserting which models are in base to base and that which are not that bit more awkward.
But overall it's not really an issue, sure I prefer to see painted armies of course but I know how much I find painting a chore, so whatever.
My first models looked like they had been painted by a deranged orangutan with a mashed crayon wedged between it's butt-cheeks, they were terrible.
So, I can sympathise with the OP, but I always feel kind of odd putting an unpainted army down on the table even though my ability isn't anything above average (not sure whether this is a hangover from the days when you had to have things painted in store?) Of course I will play against an unpainted army, and seem to more often than not, but I have to say the experience is a little better for me if both are armies are painted, if we have chosen a mission carefully and spent some time over the terrain. For a game that relies so heavily on imagination, it's a no brainer for me why some people might complain about it.
Sure, I'll leave you alone because your army isn't painted.
Just don't show up to a tournament or scheduled-months-in-advance photogenic game at the shop(which is intended to be used as a promotional platform to raise interest in wargames) where in both cases a "Your army must be fully painted to play" rule is in effect and complain that you're not allowed into the game.
gloomygrim wrote:Painting 40k is like playing guitar, NO ONE IS GOOD AT FIRST. If they say they are its a liers, some people learn faster or get better on there own faster than some people. Me im no GD winner probly never will be but im happy with everything i have painted and im proud
I know some people that are very talented painters. I'm certainly not one of them - not artistic at all. But there are plenty of ways to paint to tabletop standard that are more about technique than artistic ability. Keep trying different things and you'll find something that clicks for you. For me it was the Forge World modelling book - that transformed my painting after 20-odd years of knocking out pretty poor stuff.
Have a look at these - they aren't amazing but if I can knock these out (and it only takes a couple of hours to paint a vehicle or a squad) then anyone can do it.
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lucasbuffalo wrote:
Gornall wrote:
Seriously though... not painting is a conscious decision... no one has a genetic predisposition for painting skill. If you don't want to paint because you are busy or would rather play games than paint, that's fine (and not lazy). However... saying "I want to paint but I'm no good so I'm not going to try" IS lazy.
I disagree. I have been working on my SW for over 7 months. It's really bad.
Just because you have the ability to paint nicely doesn't mean other people are capable of it.
I cannot physically do it. My hands shake a lot when I concentrate hard and I ruin my models more than I paint them.
I keep working at it, hoping that I can improve, but I haven't yet.
I'm not lazy, I'm not making excuses.
There's no reason to be rude.
However good or bad the mini's turn out you've worked hard it at. You are definitely not the sort of person that Gornall is talking about.
gloomygrim wrote:
Painting 40k is like playing guitar, NO ONE IS GOOD AT FIRST. If they say they are its a lie
Now, I don't believe I'm good, but I'm certainly better than I have any right to be, considering that I'm a terrible artist and hadn't picked up a paint brush since I was a kid (and I wasn't good with one then) prior to starting on my first wych squad. I started with no knowledge of what I was doing aside from that gleaned from briefly skimming through the beginning of How to Paint Citadel Minis.
Spoiler:
Here's a poorly lit, out of focus picture of the first model I built and painted:
This was from somewhere around the middle of the second squad I assembled and painted (the white blob next to her head is a spare impaled skull from the ravager kit; it's out of focus because I was using a macro setting to take the picture):
*(Not hosted in the DakkaDakka gallery because I'd originally uploaded them to post on a different forum, and my internet is so slow I don't feel like uploading the whole group of 29 photos again at the moment.)
there are two ways i look at this, based on the two friends i have with unpainted armies.
Friend 1. Has a massive army, mostly unpainted. He is taking his time learning to paint as he goes. He is improving, and he is making an effort, and as such no one has an issue with playing him. Everytime i play him, a bit more of his army is painted. It is cool to watch his army grow.
Friend 2. Has a massive army, mostly unpainted. He never does anything with them, despite having no job and essentially 24/7 free time. Most of his miniatures are unassembled, and not even glued to their bases. The miniatures he has had painted were attempts by other people to show him how to paint, he just refuses to continue the effort. He doesnt play at LGS's anymore because the twelve year olds poke fun at him for not having backpacks glued on. He claims he has no money for paints, but regularly buys more stuff from forgeworld, which he then trys to play with, unpainted and unassembled. Essentially, he has placed the minimal effort into the hobby that allows him to play the game.
Basically when this guy puts his army on the battlefield, its like he is taking a dump on your terrain. It is quite insulting to be in the same hobby as this guy, and for this reason i think more people should at the very least attempt to paint their armies. Now you sound more like the first guy, a total bro. But believe me when i tell you, that the automatic assumption, when you place your army down, is that you are guy number 2.
I personally enjoy the converting and gaming aspect of the hobby more than the painting part, so almost all of my armies (bar two, literally) are unpainted (and most of that is unprimed). However, while I dislike painting (I tend to get into it too much, resulting in a hurt neck, or the colors I use dont patch up with a previous set I painted) I really cant make any excuses not to paint, since I'm an art student (painting being one of the key classes in the program).
I personally enjoy the converting and gaming aspect of the hobby more than the painting part, so almost all of my armies (bar two, literally) are unpainted (and most of that is unprimed). However, while I dislike painting (I tend to get into it too much, resulting in a hurt neck, or the colors I use dont patch up with a previous set I painted) I really cant make any excuses not to paint, since I'm an art student (painting being one of the key classes in the program).
I agree with this except i`m very artisticly blunt. Most of my army is shoddily painted models and grey units, but even though the store manager urges me to paint them i tend not to. I like the modeling aspect more. (considering more than half of my army is elites that are complete BA`s)
Cryage wrote:LOL I'm pretty bad at painting so with my nids I primed them black and painted their carapaces 3 different shades of brown/bone and gave them red eyes and figure its good enough haha
If somebody tabled an unpainted army I wouldnt rip on them cause maybe they just havent had the time.... so who cares?
Tyranid skin is so easy to paint with the new washes. Pick a colour you want. Prime white. Wash the skin areas until they are as dark as you want them to be. The wash does all the table quality shading for you. The carapaces are pretty easy to paint since they're flat surfaces.
(Pardon the terrible pun)
Too dark.
at my local 
