You do...
Telion has a silenced bolter (Lets not get into it here)
Most of the time it is because the armies in 40k are in the middle of a big fight and not a little fight.
purplefood wrote:Most of the time it is because the armies in 40k are in the middle of a big fight and not a little fight.
Ok but what about ambushes and sobatage?
Ambushes don't need silenced weapons... neither does sabotage if your teams are any good.
For infiltration missions a team would be equipped with silenced weapons but some weapons cannot or are harder to silence or suppress.
Well, there really isn't a point in silencing a Bolter.
the 1st reason is that a Bolt Shell makes noise after it leaves the barrel as it is a small rocket.
it requires a silencer on the gun itself, and a different type of ammo. Stalker patten Bolt Rounds use compressed gas instead of solid state fuel, reducing the lethality and range, but being almost completely silent.
only the Deathwatch really use Stalker ammo anyway. Telion just has the silenced gun, not ammo.
Grey Templar wrote:Well, there really isn't a point in silencing a Bolter.
the 1st reason is that a Bolt Shell makes noise after it leaves the barrel as it is a small rocket.
it requires a silencer on the gun itself, and a different type of ammo. Stalker patten Bolt Rounds use compressed gas instead of solid state fuel, reducing the lethality and range, but being almost completely silent.
only the Deathwatch really use Stalker ammo anyway. Telion just has the silenced gun, not ammo.
Wouldn't the benefits of slightly lowered volume be more or less negated completely when it explodes on impact with its target?
Even if the bolt explodes, the silencer ensures that the shooter is harder to locate for target and friends. Often a primary use for silencers.
The Dark Heresy Core Rulebook talks about silencers for autoguns and snub pistols, so they ARE used. However, if you REALLY want to be silent, you have needle pistols and needle rifles. I guess silenced autoguns fill a very small gap between "sophisticatedly silent and deadly" and "military-grade 180dB firepower" for people how can't afford the needle stuff.
PS: Or for someone who is up against armored enemies, since needlers are crap against armor. Silenced autogun with man-stopper bullets is quite a potent weapon in the Dark Heresy ruleset.
Witzkatz wrote:Even if the bolt explodes, the silencer ensures that the shooter is harder to locate for target and friends. Often a primary use for silencers.
Wouldn't the ten foot tall suit of whirring, clanking power armor give you away, though?
Orks have a silent weapon. The Choppa, sadly, they usually give away their cover by screaming WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH! before they can silently knife the poor souls.
Hardly anything around in 40k that would be worth silencing, if you could even do it. Same reason suppressors aren't standard issue for any modern military. They burn out rather quickly and make the weapon somewhat dangerous to handle. Suppressors become brutally hot after firing only a handful of rounds. If you want good suppression, you usually need to run it "wet" with either water or oil. It's just not practical.
Wouldn't the ten foot tall suit of whirring, clanking power armor give you away, though?
"Real-life" bolter range is at least up to effective 200 meters or something. I'm pretty sure trained Space Marines can operate at that distance without their armor necessarily giving them away, depending on terrain.
Furthermore...something just occurred to me. I'm not an expert, but an engineering student with laser applications classes. I'm pretty sure your average lasgun is FAR more quiet than a bullet propelled by an explosion. The damage is about the same for lasguns and autoguns, as we know. If you want the silence you get from "basic" non-super-sophisticated silencers - which means making it quiet enough that you don't wake up a whole valley of Orks when firing - I gues you could just use las weaponry.
There's a story in the novels around Col. Schaeffer and his Last Chancers where some Jungle Fighters on Armageddon argue that they'e changed their weapons from lasguns to autoguns, because the Orks respect the loud noise from the autoguns more than the quiet lasguns. This is some in-universe evidence that lasguns themselves are already comparably quiet.
(And their beam should be, for all the physics that I'm aware of, not be visible like in every frickin' game or movie you see laser weapons in.)
The Space Marine Scout bolt pistols are supposed to have silencers//suppressors. That's what that extra bit on the barrel is. There was a bit about it in WD way back when the metal Goodwin sculpts were first released, including a special mission where scouts with silenced pistols took out sentries and infiltrated a base (or something like that).
Witzkatz wrote:
(And their beam should be, for all the physics that I'm aware of, not be visible like in every frickin' game or movie you see laser weapons in.)
Witzkatz wrote:
(And their beam should be, for all the physics that I'm aware of, not be visible like in every frickin' game or movie you see laser weapons in.)
Shouldn't they make a loud 'popping' noise?
They make a "pew pew" noise.
Laser beams are visible if there is enough particulate material suspended in the air to cause backscattering of the light or to absorb the energy and fluoresce, if the beam is very high power (which of course is the point of laser weapons).
This would include smoke, dust, fog, and anti-laser aerosols.
Witzkatz wrote:
(And their beam should be, for all the physics that I'm aware of, not be visible like in every frickin' game or movie you see laser weapons in.)
Shouldn't they make a loud 'popping' noise?
They make a "pew pew" noise.
Laser beams are visible if there is enough particulate material suspended in the air to cause backscattering of the light or to absorb the energy and fluoresce, if the beam is very high power (which of course is the point of laser weapons).
This would include smoke, dust, fog, and anti-laser aerosols.
Yeah, but wouldn't the sound of the laser burning through whatever it's hitting (ie, the air) make a loud popping noise?
Aye Telion has a silenced gun, and I glued the silencer looking bit off the scouts bolt pistols onto my other scouts bolters so they match. It looks super good.
Witzkatz wrote:
(And their beam should be, for all the physics that I'm aware of, not be visible like in every frickin' game or movie you see laser weapons in.)
Shouldn't they make a loud 'popping' noise?
They make a "pew pew" noise.
Laser beams are visible if there is enough particulate material suspended in the air to cause backscattering of the light or to absorb the energy and fluoresce, if the beam is very high power (which of course is the point of laser weapons).
This would include smoke, dust, fog, and anti-laser aerosols.
Yeah, but wouldn't the sound of the laser burning through whatever it's hitting (ie, the air) make a loud popping noise?
The bang from a gun comes from two sources -- the explosion of the propellant, and the supersonic boom of the bullet pushing through the air.
Neither of these is a factor for a laser. In theory, if the laser crossed enough particles and heated them sufficiently they could vaporise with enough force to create a mini explosion.
If this happened at the muzzle of the laser, the operator might be harmed. It also saps the power of the beam.
I recall them having been stated as producing a sharp crack when fired. Nothing like a gun shot, certainly, but a crack nonetheless, from the pressure caused by heating the air.
this is because the lasgun doesn't actually fire a Laser.
the Lasgun uses a laser to agitate a gas in a special chamber. the gas then changes into plasma and is ejected from the barrel of the gun at hypersonic speed.
the sonic boom(or crack) is the plasma leaving the barrel really fast.
the "laser beam" is actually an after-image left by the plasma pulse.
I can more see a dampening field that renders a weapon silent than an actual suppressor. At any rate, silencers don't really silence anything. They're more accurately called suppressors, because the lower the dB output of the weapon.
This isn't a factor in any energy based weapon because the plasma/laser beam makes it's own noise akin to thunder. And most of the projectile weapons are either supersonic, or explode on impact anyway, negating the need for a suppressor.
In fact, there's only a handful of real life weapons are completely silent, one of which is a Russian pistol that contains the gas explosion from the primer and gun powder within the shell casing. It uses a piston to fire the projectile. It's only effective up to 20 yards though.
On the other hand, I figure most soldiers in the 40k universe have serious hearing problems anyway. I have yet to see ear protection on a single model. Even artillery.
Grey Templar wrote: Lasguns create a loud crack when fired.
the beam is also visible.
this is because the lasgun doesn't actually fire a Laser.
the Lasgun uses a laser to agitate a gas in a special chamber. the gas then changes into plasma and is ejected from the barrel of the gun at hypersonic speed.
the sonic boom(or crack) is the plasma leaving the barrel really fast.
the "laser beam" is actually an after-image left by the plasma pulse.
Could you cite sources for that? I don't believe that is actually the case.
Might I quote a source of my own:
Warhammer 40,000 3rd Edition Rulebook wrote: The lasgun uses the same basic technology and operates along the same lines as other las weapons, emitting a beam of focused light. The high amount of energy in the beam causes the immediate surface area of a target to be vaporized in a small explosion.
Furthermore, your plasma theory is inconsistent with the fact that you can recharge lasgun power packs at simple power sources, transferring electrical energy. There's no mention of loading a gas compartment, which would be necessary for the effect you describe. Your mode of operation sounds very much like a Star Wars Blaster, though.
However:
When a pulsed laser beam hits a surface, it is possible that the rapid heating of material can result in something like an explosion, an effect in which plasma created on impact plays a role. In this way, a lasgung could work on this plasma effect, but NOT by shooting agitated gas out of the barrel or anything like that. It shoots a laser beam, that's what it does.
Grey Templar wrote: Lasguns create a loud crack when fired.
the beam is also visible.
this is because the lasgun doesn't actually fire a Laser.
the Lasgun uses a laser to agitate a gas in a special chamber. the gas then changes into plasma and is ejected from the barrel of the gun at hypersonic speed.
the sonic boom(or crack) is the plasma leaving the barrel really fast.
the "laser beam" is actually an after-image left by the plasma pulse.
Could you cite sources for that? I don't believe that is actually the case.
It's not for 40K. He's confusing Star Wars Blasters for Lasguns.
I imagine the lasguns making some sort of snap as the capacitors discharge followed by a [i]hiss[/] on impact. Also, capacitor whine between shots. That said, the charge/discharge of the capacitors would still be quieter than a suppressed firearm.
Grey Templar wrote:Lasguns create a loud crack when fired.
the beam is also visible.
this is because the lasgun doesn't actually fire a Laser.
the Lasgun uses a laser to agitate a gas in a special chamber. the gas then changes into plasma and is ejected from the barrel of the gun at hypersonic speed.
the sonic boom(or crack) is the plasma leaving the barrel really fast.
the "laser beam" is actually an after-image left by the plasma pulse.
You're thinking of Tau pulse rifles there, I believe. Lasguns are lasers, with the crack produced in a similar manner to a thunderclap, as the air the beam passes through superheats and expands, causing an audible shockwave.
"Snipers from other companies tended to favor the long-las. It was a fine weapon, highly accurate, but its bright beam gave the shooter's position away. On the orders of the late Major Dubrin, Fifth Company snipers employed hand-crafted, Voystroyan-made rifles that fires solid ammunition. It was a harder weapon to master than the Long-las, but a sniper with good cover could take down target after target without giving himself away.
Shalkova (the name of the snipers rifle) was fitted with flash and noise suppressors."
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and I don't think it's reflected in the rules but don't the rifles of Ratlings have silencers?
The reinforced barrel is often portryaed as a silencer as well.
And to replie to Warboss Imbad: I'm not sure thier guns have a silencer or not thier guns aren't really specifed what type of sniper they are even so I cant say
Yak9UT wrote:The reinforced barrel is often portrayed as a silencer as well.
No it's not.
It's portrayed as a flash suppressor.
And to reply to Warboss Imbad: I'm not sure their guns have a silencer or not their guns aren't really specified what type of sniper they are even so I cant say.
Their rifles, fluffwise, are long-lases same as most Guard snipers.
Yak9UT wrote:The reinforced barrel is often portrayed as a silencer as well.
No it's not.
It's portrayed as a flash suppressor.
And to reply to Warboss Imbad: I'm not sure their guns have a silencer or not their guns aren't really specified what type of sniper they are even so I cant say.
Their rifles, fluffwise, are long-lases same as most Guard snipers.
Rules-wise, they're just called "sniper rifles".
A flash Supressor? You don't mean just Supressor (silencer)?
Supressor remove both sound and reduce flash of a gun.
So what your saying is that the Flash supressor only supresses the flash of the gun?
A flash Supressor? You don't mean just Supressor (silencer)?
Supressor remove both sound and reduce flash of a gun.
So what your saying is that the Flash supressor only supresses the flash of the gun?
Not the sound?
No, I do not mean a suppressor.
A "suppressor" is a "silencer" that also incorporates the benefits of a "flash suppressor". Flash suppressors are integral parts of most modern military firearms.
You cannot "suppress" a las weapon. You can, however, reduce the flash generated.
Larkin explained it in one of the early books when he was hallucinating and talking to a statue.
Dark Apostle 666 wrote:Long-las may be silenced, not sure, but anyway, most people tend to notice when the guy next to ya loses his head. *pop* - headshot!
Mad Larkin in the Gaunt's Ghost series has used silenced sniper rifles, and in one of the first few books had a silencer on his lasrifle (how that works, you'll have to ask Dan Abnett).
Scifi_99 wrote:Well space marine tech can use silencers.
Now take the eldar they can use a diferent energy burst to reduce noise and improve acuracy.
Like the Ranger weapon,
Eldar migth have the most sound free guns in 40k.
But for actual silencers i think maybe imperial guard, and TAU with the stealth suits (not sure about this), and the tau sniper robots.
I doubt the Stealth suits do, their suits just make them harder to see they don't supress sound. And by the time the enemy notices that they're there it's usually too late. And I REALLY doubt that rail rifles are silenced.
ZacktheChaosChild wrote:Mad Larkin in the Gaunt's Ghost series has used silenced sniper rifles, and in one of the first few books had a silencer on his lasrifle (how that works, you'll have to ask Dan Abnett).
Once again: he does not. He used a flash suppressor, which was integral with the strengthened barrel that he swaps in.
He's never used a silenced sniper rifle. He used a silenced autopistol in "Traitor General" and his personal long-las.
ZacktheChaosChild wrote:Mad Larkin in the Gaunt's Ghost series has used silenced sniper rifles, and in one of the first few books had a silencer on his lasrifle (how that works, you'll have to ask Dan Abnett).
Once again: he does not. He used a flash suppressor, which was integral with the strengthened barrel that he swaps in.
He's never used a silenced sniper rifle. He used a silenced autopistol in "Traitor General" and his personal long-las.
And besides, the baffles in a silencer would work for a las-rifle or an autogun. They redistribute the energy that creates sound regardless of its source.
The flash suppressor would be pointless in a laser based weapon (not to say he didn't have one in the book) because all of the light exiting the gun is concentrated anyway. There's not excess engery to push out the sides of the barrel.
Kanluwen wrote:The sound from a las weapon can't be suppressed. It's caused by the air being superheated.
You'd have to silence the air.
You can, however, tone down the light emitted.
There is no excess light emitted though. As a laser, it's concentrated into a beam that you can't really see. It's described in the epilogue to Necropolis
Kanluwen wrote:Except most 'lasers' you won't actually see outside of having very specific circumstances.
Look at a laser rangefinder. The light is outside of the visible spectrum--unless there's smoke or just the right conditions.
What I'm trying to convey is that the flash supressor on a rifle redirects the light from the explosion of the gunpowder in other directions than outward.
A las-rifle, on the other hand, has no excess flash because as a laser, the light is focused together.
Kanluwen wrote:Except most 'lasers' you won't actually see outside of having very specific circumstances.
Look at a laser rangefinder. The light is outside of the visible spectrum--unless there's smoke or just the right conditions.
What I'm trying to convey is that the flash supressor on a rifle redirects the light from the explosion of the gunpowder in other directions than outward.
A las-rifle, on the other hand, has no excess flash because as a laser, the light is focused together.
I'm well aware of how a flash suppressor works, thanks.
The point I'm conveying is that just because it's a laser weapon does not mean that it will be in the visible spectrum, nor that it will be a single continuous beam.
The 'beams' described in the various Guard novels are also noted as being the afterimages of the bolts, implying that they travel much like a bullet rather than a single coherent beam of light(like the Covenant in Halo's "Focus Rifle"). That also, in turn, implies that you could feasibly suppress the flash from the rifle going off.
Kanluwen wrote:Except most 'lasers' you won't actually see outside of having very specific circumstances.
Look at a laser rangefinder. The light is outside of the visible spectrum--unless there's smoke or just the right conditions.
What I'm trying to convey is that the flash supressor on a rifle redirects the light from the explosion of the gunpowder in other directions than outward.
A las-rifle, on the other hand, has no excess flash because as a laser, the light is focused together.
I'm well aware of how a flash suppressor works, thanks.
The point I'm conveying is that just because it's a laser weapon does not mean that it will be in the visible spectrum, nor that it will be a single continuous beam.
The 'beams' described in the various Guard novels are also noted as being the afterimages of the bolts, implying that they travel much like a bullet rather than a single coherent beam of light(like the Covenant in Halo's "Focus Rifle"). That also, in turn, implies that you could feasibly suppress the flash from the rifle going off.
The bolt itself makes light, but where has it ever been described that the barrel does when fired?
Kanluwen wrote:Except most 'lasers' you won't actually see outside of having very specific circumstances.
Look at a laser rangefinder. The light is outside of the visible spectrum--unless there's smoke or just the right conditions.
What I'm trying to convey is that the flash supressor on a rifle redirects the light from the explosion of the gunpowder in other directions than outward.
A las-rifle, on the other hand, has no excess flash because as a laser, the light is focused together.
I'm well aware of how a flash suppressor works, thanks.
The point I'm conveying is that just because it's a laser weapon does not mean that it will be in the visible spectrum, nor that it will be a single continuous beam.
The 'beams' described in the various Guard novels are also noted as being the afterimages of the bolts, implying that they travel much like a bullet rather than a single coherent beam of light(like the Covenant in Halo's "Focus Rifle"). That also, in turn, implies that you could feasibly suppress the flash from the rifle going off.
The bolt itself makes light, but where has it ever been described that the barrel does when fired?
The bolt does not make light. The bolt superheating the air surrounding it is what creates the light and afterimages.
It's the same effect that you'd have to worry about with railguns and other mass driver weaponry. The friction of the projectile superheats the air and creates an afterimage, but you could feasibly muffle that effect by having a barrel that effectively 'devours' the excess heat when fired.
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GalacticDefender wrote:
xxmatt85 wrote:How come we never see silencers on weapons in 40k?
Just imagine bolters and lasguns with silencers O_O.
Some of the space marine scouts look like they have silencers on their pistols. Also the scout sniper rifles are silenced iirc.
The pistols do not have 'silencers'. Those are just the normal bolt pistols that they've had Scouts using for awhile.
The 'scout sniper rifles' also are naturally silenced, since they're Needle Rifles.
Grey Templar wrote: Lasguns create a loud crack when fired.
the beam is also visible.
this is because the lasgun doesn't actually fire a Laser.
the Lasgun uses a laser to agitate a gas in a special chamber. the gas then changes into plasma and is ejected from the barrel of the gun at hypersonic speed.
the sonic boom(or crack) is the plasma leaving the barrel really fast.
the "laser beam" is actually an after-image left by the plasma pulse.
Could you cite sources for that? I don't believe that is actually the case.
It's not for 40K. He's confusing Star Wars Blasters for Lasguns.
read the Uplifting Primer and Munitorum manuel.
they are the only actual direct GW material on the subject. BL gets stuff wrong sometimes.
Grey Templar wrote: Lasguns create a loud crack when fired.
the beam is also visible.
this is because the lasgun doesn't actually fire a Laser.
the Lasgun uses a laser to agitate a gas in a special chamber. the gas then changes into plasma and is ejected from the barrel of the gun at hypersonic speed.
the sonic boom(or crack) is the plasma leaving the barrel really fast.
the "laser beam" is actually an after-image left by the plasma pulse.
Could you cite sources for that? I don't believe that is actually the case.
It's not for 40K. He's confusing Star Wars Blasters for Lasguns.
read the Uplifting Primer and Munitorum manuel.
they are the only actual direct GW material on the subject. BL gets stuff wrong sometimes.
I have read both, and I don't remember gas being mentioned(btb, they're both produced by BL, too, NOT the main GW studio).
Either way, the actual studio books(the rulebooks and Codex) both state that it emits a beam of focused light, NOT a plasma bolt.
3rd edition rulebook: Laser weapons emit a highly focused beam of light. The short duration high energy beam produces such a rapid temperature change on the target's surface that it vaporises in a small explosion.
Lasguns fire with a searing flash of light and the distinctive snap or crack of ionised air, each pull of the trigger firing a single shot.
Rechargeable power packs feed the discharge generator. Power packs usually possess a highly efficient liquid metal core and vary from small internal packs for lasguns and pistols, to crate sized for lascannons and larger las weapons. Most light power packs provide forty shots, compared to the lascannon packs which are good for only one shot. Las weapons can be overpowered with "Hotshot" power packs, providing more power but less shots. Hotshot packs cannot easily be recharged and the extra stress put on the barrel requires much more maintenance. Power packs can be easily recharged by exposing them to heat, or sunlight through solar converters. In an emergency a pack can be placed in a fire and quickly recharged, although this method shortens the life of the pack and can destroy it altogether.
Guys, I think you're all forgetting one key thing about 40k:
This is a universe where huge armies in giant fleets of ships travel across the galaxy so that they can travel down to a planet and attack each other with chainsaws. There's no need for silencers because there's no need for stealth. Everyone gets full battlefield tactical information from their orbiting ships, so there's no way to hide. And, you wouldn't want to hide. The only reason the battle on the ground matters is for purely entertainment purposes.
It's the same reason that most armies paint themselves bright colors. They want to be visible for the TV cameras.
As to the deafness thing, I have yet to see more than a hand full of soldiers not wearing helmets.
The IG Helmets are really bulky around the ears
I wonder why . . .
the supressor increaces the amount of friction on the progectile as it leaves the bareel and enters the supressor slowing the progectile down reducing its range thats why surpressors get so hot so quickly
Could you really silence or suppress a bolt? The silencer works by slowing a projectile down to subsonic speed while muzzle flash is handled by a shroud. But bolts accelerate AFTER they leave the barrel by igniting their main propellant and I would Imagine going supersonic. So it would stand to reason that once the main propellant charge goes off after the bolt has left the barrel that you would then have a possible visible sign of ignition followed by most likely a supersonic crack.
It follows the description of bolters being quite loud and noisy (why orks used to love them before GW switched them to Shootas). Each time you fire a bolt you should get two loud cracks, one from the ejection charge produced in the barrel and one from the main charge after it leaves the barrel. Quite a racket when firing three round bursts or full auto.
I don't see anyway to hide that, much like the (what is it in this edition) 10 foot tall 800 pound armored monstrosity that is toting it. One handed mind you. I've always wondered what the marines would use for clandestine missions. Even scouts don't seam the inconspicuous when you think of their size and weight. I mean the British used Gurkhas for a reason. Scouts have to weigh 600 pounds and are at least 7 feet tall in armor. You are not sneaking past anyone. You can forget things like climbing of tree branches unless you can find one to support the weight. They would be defeated by rickety rope bridges.
Andrew1975 wrote:Could you really silence or suppress a bolt? The silencer works by slowing a projectile down to subsonic speed
No, they don't. They slow the bullet down as a side effect of it scraping against the inside of the silencer, and it slightly lowers the sound by muffling the expanding gas. There are subsonic rounds used with silencers, some of which can even leave the shot quieter than the action of the gun, but those are pretty rare simply because of the problems such low muzzle velocities cause.
But bolts accelerate AFTER they leave the barrel by igniting their main propellant and I would Imagine going supersonic. So it would stand to reason that once the main propellant charge goes off after the bolt has left the barrel that you would then have a possible visible sign of ignition followed by most likely a supersonic crack.
xxmatt85 wrote:How come we never see silencers on weapons in 40k?
Just imagine bolters and lasguns with silencers O_O.
Umm, how does a 'silenced' laser work?
If bolters are effectively similar to gyro-jets (vague resemblance, granted) how is this silenced?
If I am confused, someone please enlighten me.
The bolt shell in a silenced bolter is different from standard ones...
From what i have read about lasguns they make a cracking sound when they fire which is apparently the gas being released when they fire (not entirely sure how they work to be honest) a silenced lasgun would presumably have some kind of gas-suppression-system or something...
For silencers to really work you must fire sub-sonic ammo out of them. I mean you can fire ammo that is over sonic speeds, but it wears and tears the silencer a ton.
I guess I don't have a handle on how bolters really work.
When I was in the military, I had a suppressed side arm that we called a 'hush puppy' that fired ammunition with such a low charge that it was subsonic. It fired with a definate 'pop', but you could still hear the 'slide' over the noise. Anything that would break the sound barrier is going to be louder than that.
Now, to silence a LASER I have no idea. A weapon grade laser would generate tremendous amounts of heat along the length of its beam. It is this heat that causes deformation in the atmosphere which in turn creates sound. This deformation occurs along the entire length of the beam. So how this would be silenced I have no idea.
Maybe the laser weapon in 40k isn't really a Laser at all? Maybe this is just a generic 'laymans' term for the weapon?
Witzkatz wrote:Even if the bolt explodes, the silencer ensures that the shooter is harder to locate for target and friends. Often a primary use for silencers.
The Dark Heresy Core Rulebook talks about silencers for autoguns and snub pistols, so they ARE used. However, if you REALLY want to be silent, you have needle pistols and needle rifles. I guess silenced autoguns fill a very small gap between "sophisticatedly silent and deadly" and "military-grade 180dB firepower" for people how can't afford the needle stuff.
PS: Or for someone who is up against armored enemies, since needlers are crap against armor. Silenced autogun with man-stopper bullets is quite a potent weapon in the Dark Heresy ruleset.
Correct. Silencers in Dark Heresy aren't perfectly silent of course, bnut they're arguably better than the ones we have. They're pretty much standard equipment for most DH groups.
Silencers don't work on bolt pistols, however, due to the multistage nature of the weapon-- the rocket stage is damned loud. You need special ammunition for boltguns to become silenced.
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Kanluwen wrote:And it's already been mentioned. The 'Exitus' rifle used by the Vindicares uses solid slug ammunition, making it for all basic intents an 'autogun'.
That depends on if it's caseless or not. I think it's a bit more advanced than autogun technology obviously.
OP. You know what, you could write an entire dissertation on this subject. This question is too vague! Do you mean silencers, suppressors, or flash guards. There are so many different weapons in 40K, which ones are you interested in, bolt, ballistic,melta, plasma, shuriken,,,etc.
I can provide you with a complete explanation for it all if you want, all it takes is knowledge of the 40K universe and knowledge of how weapons work, I have both.....it will take a half page at least. Can you define your question better? Is there something specific you are looking for or do you want the entire shpeel?
No, they don't. They slow the bullet down as a side effect of it scraping against the inside of the silencer, and it slightly lowers the sound by muffling the expanding gas. There are subsonic rounds used with silencers, some of which can even leave the shot quieter than the action of the gun, but those are pretty rare simply because of the problems such low muzzle velocities cause.
It depends on what you are talking about. silencer, suppressor or flash guard. For a ballistic weapon that to be silent it must do two things.
1 Reduce ignition report.
2 Reduce speed of projectile to subsonic, as a supersonic ballistic projectile creates a sonic boom which will make lots of noise. Hence sonic boom.
Problem: most guns fitted with a suppressor still produce the sonic boom from the round breaking the sound barrier, they only muffle the explosion of the propellant. As a result, "silenced" guns are still extremely loud, just not as loud as an unsilenced one. The frequent ban on silencers stems more from the fact that a silenced shot no longer sounds like a gun shot, and general public ignorance on how big an effect silencers have.
For a shot to be subsonic it has to use specially designed ammo or reduce the pressure in the barrel, which with a sufficiently small round and a silencer can produce a shot that's quieter than the action of the gun, but is generally still over 100 decibels.
Edit: should have quoted you before you edited out... almost everything I responded to there...
should have quoted you before you edited out... almost everything I responded to there...
Sorry, I thought it would be easy to answer but the more I wrote, the more I realized definitions have to be defined and weapon types are so different. I mean really you could write pages. So instead of just throwing it out there with incomplete info I thought I would ask if there was something specific. As it appears there is not even a general consensus, here at least about what a suppressor, silencer or flash guard do and how they would affect each weapon. REALLY DIFFERENTLY is the answer.
I think suppressors and silencers and flash guards are very different objects and fulfill separate rolls. But after some research America and England have different definitions (Truck/Lorry, Rubber/Eraser) of the two pieces and some believe it synonymous.
I didn't want to impose a definition yet without more research. So I asked for a better question.
Uhlan wrote:Maybe the laser weapon in 40k isn't really a Laser at all? Maybe this is just a generic 'laymans' term for the weapon?
I already posted the relevant fluff earlier in this thread, but Imperial Lasweapons(gun, pistol, and cannon) are focused beams of light.
@Platuan4th- Ah, sorry I missed that somehow Platuan4th. I try and make sure I read every post in the thread before I respond on most occassions so I don't repeat unneccessarily.
Still, I don't think you can silence a laser. Silencer is an archaic term in the military at least something to be heard in an old "James Bond" movie, lol. We called them supressors, most were 'tunable' as well.
As to the supressors on GW's figures they must have some function or they wouldn't be there. They are figures representative of 40k fluff and fluff trumps all logic.
Crom wrote:here goes super sonic ammo versus sub sonic ammo out of a Desert Eagle .50 A&E
See the difference?
That's a big can. Having a caliber that big supressed is a little ridiculous. The length alone makes it untenable, especially in CQB.
Lol, I knew an Israeli soldier who used a .50 DE... he broke his wrist. Seeing that video makes me chuckle. Then again, I used the 'Carpal Tunnel Typewriter' the G18c...
Concerning the "crack of superheated air" resulting from firing a laser weapon...could someone actually cite a source for this?
Thunder in a thunderstorm comes from superheated air expanding due to lightning, but I've yet to find solid evidence that lasers produce a similiar effect and corresponding sound.
Witzkatz wrote:Concerning the "crack of superheated air" resulting from firing a laser weapon...could someone actually cite a source for this?
Thunder in a thunderstorm comes from superheated air expanding due to lightning, but I've yet to find solid evidence that lasers produce a similiar effect and corresponding sound.
This may give you some insight, though it can't answer your question completely as it doesn't postulate on the types of laser weapon that is present in 40k. I learned quite a bit as I read it.
The way I interpret it, the laser creates an explosion at the end of the beam as it hits the target. 1 megajoule beam at a certain range has the equivalent energy of 200 grams of TNT and the corresponding effect (Sound, explosion and damage) Though, if I read the article correctly, there is a certain plasma effect with concentrated beams and this would have an effect much like lightning... at least in an atmosphere. Simple lasers make no sound at all accept for the mechanical noise associated with parts.
Thanks for the link, Uhlan. This "Blooming" effect that is mentioned on the page seems particularly interesting, since it seems to indicate the possibilty of very-high-energy laser beams being actually visible like in movies, if I understand the concept correct. The electrolaser idea is also very interesting, though not really on topic, I fear...
Witzkatz wrote:Thanks for the link, Uhlan. This "Blooming" effect that is mentioned on the page seems particularly interesting, since it seems to indicate the possibilty of very-high-energy laser beams being actually visible like in movies, if I understand the concept correct. The electrolaser idea is also very interesting, though not really on topic, I fear...
Ha, yeah, I found that interesting as well. I can't tell you how many times while trying to show individuals how to use a laser range finder or designator only to have them ask me where the beam was.
Uhlan wrote: Ha, yeah, I found that interesting as well. I can't tell you how many times while trying to show individuals how to use a laser range finder or designator only to have them ask me where the beam was.
Tell me about it. Would you, by chance, know details about this blooming effect and when it occurs? I held a presentation about the LaWS prototypes being tested for anti-air defense during a Laser Applications lecture just a few weeks ago. That thing has quite some firepower, but even in humid-air naval conditions, the high-powered beam wasn't visible to the naked eye in all the footage I've seen. I'm curious if this blooming effect might make a laser beam visible depending on certain configurations or situations.
Platuan4th wrote: As my post with the Lasweapon fluff says: 3rd ed BRB.
Thanks for the in-fluff source. Since this discussions is halfway into "our" science thanks to the general discussion about silencers and suppressors, I was hoping for a real-world source for such effects of lasers, whatever their type might be.
I only used the DE as an example assuming that in the 41st millennium they use larger caliber bullets, and ammo that goes way beyond super sonic speeds. Trying to suppress any high velocity ammo would be difficult. Plus most weapons use a gas chamber system to cycle the ammo through the bolt carrier. Here is an AK assuming he is firing 7.62x39 but even at subsonic speeds it will only travel ~1,000 feet per a second.
Now, I own an AK74 and when I buy cheaper hunting ammo the gun fails to cycle every 3rd or 4th round because the load of the ammo is not always high enough to chamber the next round.
Here goes another comparison of .308 supersonic and subsonic rounds
Crom wrote:
Now, I own an AK74 and when I buy cheaper hunting ammo the gun fails to cycle every 3rd or 4th round because the load of the ammo is not always high enough to chamber the next round.
1) You hunt with an AK74? Or do you just mean you use cheaper ammo to save money?
2) A subsonic round shouldn't be a weaker charge, but a heavier bullet, so it leaves with the same energy, but moves slower.
Grey Templar wrote:Lasguns create a loud crack when fired.
the beam is also visible.
this is because the lasgun doesn't actually fire a Laser.
the Lasgun uses a laser to agitate a gas in a special chamber. the gas then changes into plasma and is ejected from the barrel of the gun at hypersonic speed.
the sonic boom(or crack) is the plasma leaving the barrel really fast.
the "laser beam" is actually an after-image left by the plasma pulse.
Is that official? I like it, makes sense.
As for the OP, there are silencers in 40k though it seems that it's the marines that mostly use them.
Grey Templar wrote:Lasguns create a loud crack when fired.
the beam is also visible.
this is because the lasgun doesn't actually fire a Laser.
the Lasgun uses a laser to agitate a gas in a special chamber. the gas then changes into plasma and is ejected from the barrel of the gun at hypersonic speed.
the sonic boom(or crack) is the plasma leaving the barrel really fast.
the "laser beam" is actually an after-image left by the plasma pulse.
Is that official? I like it, makes sense.
I'm about 99% sure he's thinking of the tau pulse weapons, which as I recall are described as doing that by their codex. The other 1% would be he's just pulled it out of thin air, because laser weapons are consistently treated as lasers, not plasma guns. There's also a possibility he's thinking of Star Wars, I suppose, which has its "blasters" work something like that.
Crom wrote:
Now, I own an AK74 and when I buy cheaper hunting ammo the gun fails to cycle every 3rd or 4th round because the load of the ammo is not always high enough to chamber the next round.
1) You hunt with an AK74? Or do you just mean you use cheaper ammo to save money?
2) A subsonic round shouldn't be a weaker charge, but a heavier bullet, so it leaves with the same energy, but moves slower.
I don't really hunt, just shoot at paper targets for fun. Subsonic is usually a slower bullet, which means typically less load of powder in it. Since it travels at speeds below breaking the sound barrier.
Don't you mean AK-47?
Nope, AK74 is the newer version that is chambered in 5.56
In Traitor General, Gaunt's Commandos drop down onto a Chaos held world with silenced autopistols, and the loyalist insurgency wield autorifles with suppressors.
ok, first thing, silencers/ supressors do not work with supersonic ammo, period. it blows out the internal baffels and not only wrecks the silencer but can be potentialy harmfull to the user.
the whole laser crack thing is definitely plausible though if you go of fluff i think you will find that any attatchments of that nature would be initial flash dampeners more than anything else. and yes whille most conceivable military grade lasers would opperate outside the visible spectrum they would refract off particles in the air (these are pressent everywhere generaly except under laboritory conditions) and produce the distinctive flash, i would also postulate that the lasgun would produce ozone (that is O3) among other nasties with every shot since it would ionise the air molecules, which would smell nasty.
the bolter problem has already been sorted in the fluff i believe with the compressed gas propelant or whatever. though i would point your attention to the AA12 combat shotgun and one of its more nasty ammo types (basicaly a bolt gun), which an be effectively silenced. oh and for those who think the 0.50 Deagle is stupid, a boltgun is 0.75 cal (sorry not being snarky, just informing), though the isea of the boltgun is kinda stoopid, just in a cool way.
Grey Templar wrote:Lasguns create a loud crack when fired.
the beam is also visible.
this is because the lasgun doesn't actually fire a Laser.
the Lasgun uses a laser to agitate a gas in a special chamber. the gas then changes into plasma and is ejected from the barrel of the gun at hypersonic speed.
the sonic boom(or crack) is the plasma leaving the barrel really fast.
the "laser beam" is actually an after-image left by the plasma pulse.
Would you, by chance, know details about this blooming effect and when it occurs? I held a presentation about the LaWS prototypes being tested for anti-air defense during a Laser Applications lecture just a few weeks ago. That thing has quite some firepower, but even in humid-air naval conditions, the high-powered beam wasn't visible to the naked eye in all the footage I've seen. I'm curious if this blooming effect might make a laser beam visible depending on certain configurations or situations.