What do you think are some of the things you are not gonna be looking forward to fighting against when the Grey knights come out?

Here is a small list of what I do not looking forward to seeing on the battle field against me.

1. Termi's as a basic troop choice - Anyone who plays them will only use them at all point levels. So that will not be comfy seeing nothing by an entire 2/5 army standing in front of me.

2. Nemesis Dread Knight - I do not know what this thing is or what it does but from the look of the GW model I never want to see it. It looks scary.

3. I heard some scary things about their snipers. If it comes true than this will be the third option I do not want to see.

1. How is that different then half of the existing SM codecies out there? You can already have all termie armies, nothing new there.

2. Its a weaker version of the Wraithlord, meh

3. They are assassins, not unlike the assassins you can already get. Deadly, but not necessarily overpowered by any means.

Purifiers. My Orks have enough trouble as is.

Troop terminators are actually fairly "eh". Troop paladins or Purifiers are gonna be something to worry about imo.

Interceptors...
Scout, 30" shunt and assault could get old very quickly...

For someone who plans to play the army, I'll give you some informed advice:

You shouldn't be scared of troop termis. Troop PURIFIERS on the other hand...

Paladins will be nasty too.

The Dreadknight's bark is worse than it's bite. Hit it with plasma or melta and it will crumble like anything else.

Vindicare Assassins, I assume you mean them by "snipers" may be powerful if left to do what they want, but he's still only T4 4+. Anything you would use to drop marines will drop these. They do have 2W, but if you try, they'll go down easy.

Librarians that declare you have 1 of 2 options:

OPTION A) Assault him and his unit, but walk through dangerous terrain in the process. Yes, he did just turn that grass into powerswords.

OPTION B) Do not assault his unit. Sit there looking stupid and get shot the crap out of next turn then assaulted.

PROBLEM: You assaulting with terminators, then your loosing 40point+ models on every 1 you roll before the assault.

You know you can take invulnerable saves versus dangerous terrain, right?

Forget about all that.

Jokaero are what you're going to have to worry about, that and poorly written ambiguities because of Matt Ward. "Look! I have an army of monkeys wielding lascannons, with 60" range, and they're all mounted in Chimera. . ." Yeah. . .That's stupid. I've already seen a few lists around with 25 Jokaero in chimera with Dreadknight backup. Oh, and the Dreadknight is far better than a Wraithlord.

Purifiers. Interceptors. S8 Rifleman dreads.

As DE, though...almost everything! Ugh, my poor raiders. I ordered you and I'm going to paint you with such care, but you are going to be so nuked by S5 storm bolters, psycannons and lascannon wielded by apes doing drive-bys!

Sephyr wrote:
Purifiers. Interceptors. S8 Rifleman dreads.

As DE, though...almost everything! Ugh, my poor raiders. I ordered you and I'm going to paint you with such care, but you are going to be so nuked by S5 storm bolters, psycannons and lascannon wielded by apes doing drive-bys!

As a fellow DE player I know exactly what you mean. Those poor raiders won't be liking the S8 autocannons, Psycannons, or S5 bolters spam one bit.

Isn't there a DE weapon that, if a wound is inflicted and not saved against, kill MCs outright? Use that against Dreadknight.

Ahtman wrote:Isn't there a DE weapon that, if a wound is inflicted and not saved against, kill MCs outright? Use that against Dreadknight.

HuskBlade, and personally I'd just drown it in poisoned fire.

or use a Agoniser instead.

Purifiers are going to be my biggest concern. Cleansing flame is just nasty.

MC's aint a problem it's the S5-S8 stuff which seems like it will be in abundance thanks to psybolt ammunition.

Also it's a little sad that Incubi can't really compete with GK in melee. Suprisingly Wyches still seem like a good choice.

+2 to I is crazy should have been just 1. Stupid Halberd grumblemumblegrumble....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Then again DE look like they may be able to hold their own against GK fairly well.

Or interceptors given scoring through GS, shunt 30" last turn objective grabbing, while doing damage elswhere in the mean time.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Or interceptors given scoring through GS, shunt 30" last turn objective grabbing, while doing damage elswhere in the mean time.

Last turn shunt contesting is going to make me giggle like an idiot every time I do it. And I -WILL- do it. Lots.

Make eldar players jealous that you have resilient units that can do it, as well.

Any model with power staves. Heck! They are a nemesis weapon that gives either a 2+ or +2 to an invulnerable save. If it is the first one, we are all dead, if it is the second, that's a 3+ invulnerable save if given to termis!
Nuff said.

They give a 2++ save, but only in close combat.

Still, if somone fields a termi-spam army, not many people will have enough ap 1/2 weapons to kill them all quickly enough before they get into combat. And no army that I know of has any combat weapons that ignore invulnerable saves.
Death + Death + Death

Necrons have warscythes which ignore all saves.

Anyway, Warding Staves are VERY expensive and only one model in the unit can have one.

Oh yeah, warsythes!
Still, one a unit is enough for me. Wait! They're still just marines! I'll just gift and wind of chaos them to death!
Still...
GK=DEATH+DEATH+NO FUN(for non gk players)x42
(if anyone has seen 'a hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy' you'll know what I mean by 42)

chaos0xomega wrote:1. How is that different then half of the existing SM codecies out there? You can already have all termie armies, nothing new there.

2. Its a weaker version of the Wraithlord, meh

3. They are assassins, not unlike the assassins you can already get. Deadly, but not necessarily overpowered by any means.

I wish my Wraithlords had a 2+/4++ save with 4 wounds and deepstrike and can count as troops

obsidianaura wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:1. How is that different then half of the existing SM codecies out there? You can already have all termie armies, nothing new there.

2. Its a weaker version of the Wraithlord, meh

3. They are assassins, not unlike the assassins you can already get. Deadly, but not necessarily overpowered by any means.

I wish my Wraithlords had a 2+/4++ save with 4 wounds and deepstrike and can count as troops

5++, just sayin'. You do have T8 though.

What I'm not looking forward too:
S8 Dreads. The only thing that I think is OTT in the codex tbh. S8 is SUCH a difference compared to s7 that to give the dreads that for THAT price...that's just madness.

Other than that...well playing without psy defences will make fortitude a royal pain. Normally Shaken = Decent, Stunned = Great...now, not so much.

Matt.Kingsley wrote:Still, if somone fields a termi-spam army, not many people will have enough ap 1/2 weapons to kill them all quickly enough before they get into combat. And no army that I know of has any combat weapons that ignore invulnerable saves.
Death + Death + Death

No, but a lot of armies have non-power weapon options that can deal with terminators.

5 Terminiators getting charged by 30 boyz are going to have a rough time, even before the power klaw. 150 attacks have a 75% chance of wiping out 5 terminators.

I play BEERhammer... so Im going to enjoy each game regardless.

However, give it a few games and you will work out that Gks are just like any other PA army out there...

JOKE-aero? Take away their armour and they are nothing.

Dreadknight - I have a squad of Long Fangs (drop pod option) with Logan and Arjac Rockfist... where is the problem?

I only disagree with the points costs and wargear options for this 'elite' force being undercosted, enabling too many to be fielded at each pts bracket.

biccat - no way in hell there would still be 30 orks charging you. Not a hope. 8 S5 no armour shots a turn and 4 S7 no armour shots a tun does that in, assuming 2 turns of shooting (average run rolls on your part) that is:

8x2/3*2/3 = 3 5/9 dead orks, if no cover, 2 if in cover
4x2/3*5/6 = 2 2/9 dead orks, 1 1/9 if in cover

Suddenly, with no other shooting, your squad is 25% smaller. It also assumes you're getting the charge.

Avatar - assuming 5 long fangs shooting MM at the DK you aren't getting 4 wounds. (5*2/3*5/6*2/3 = ~ 2 wounds, total. You have to be within 6" for arjac as well, from memory. The DK can then scoot 12" (+run) OR a shunt of 30" away from you if he's worried. Your point sink then gets hit by rending *everything*

nosferatu1001 wrote:biccat - no way in hell there would still be 30 orks charging you. Not a hope. 8 S5 no armour shots a turn and 4 S7 no armour shots a tun does that in, assuming 2 turns of shooting (average run rolls on your part) that is:

8x2/3*2/3 = 3 5/9 dead orks, if no cover, 2 if in cover
4x2/3*5/6 = 2 2/9 dead orks, 1 1/9 if in cover

Suddenly, with no other shooting, your squad is 25% smaller. It also assumes you're getting the charge.

Avatar - assuming 5 long fangs shooting MM at the DK you aren't getting 4 wounds. (5*2/3*5/6*2/3 = ~ 2 wounds, total. You have to be within 6" for arjac as well, from memory. The DK can then scoot 12" (+run) OR a shunt of 30" away from you if he's worried. Your point sink then gets hit by rending *everything*

Not to mention that Drop Podding straight into a Warp Quake might not be too smart...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Avatar - assuming 5 long fangs shooting MM at the DK you aren't getting 4 wounds. (5*2/3*5/6*2/3 = ~ 2 wounds, total. You have to be within 6" for arjac as well, from memory. The DK can then scoot 12" (+run) OR a shunt of 30" away from you if he's worried. Your point sink then gets hit by rending *everything*

Sorry mate, but I believe you have no idea what you are talking about.

Arjac is to prevent being charged. not even the Dreadknight will charge him.

It's not a point sink if you know how to use it.

Your arguement is assuming that the SW player does not know how to play. Typical theory-crafting BS on your behalf.

You also forget that LOGAN gives the MM Long Fangs (5 x MM + Wolf Guard with Cyclone/Combi metla) RELENTLESS... = Move + SHOOT

Thanks for playing.

That purifier nonsense is gonna frustrate me with foot guard. And the 2++ in close combat makes the power swords null and void...good thing I have mechvet spam to switch back to.

Genuinely not looking forward to this codex. Though it is 'just another MEQ' codex, its beginning to make C:SM look like an all around inferior codex. GK just feel too...gimmicky right now. I'll wait to make any real judgements for when I play them, but I have some serious doubts about the balance of GK...

chaos0xomega wrote:
2. Its a weaker version of the Wraithlord, meh

Except the Wraithlord doesn't have psychic abilities, it can't wield a Daemonhammer and it can't wield Force weapons.

Did you see yesterday's article on Games-Workshop.com where they threw different things at the Dreadknights to see what could take them down?

Nothing did (except finally, two waves of big bug Tyranids) Then, at the end of the article, for fun they pitted three of them against a Stompa, and they took it out.

Yeah, I'm not scared of them either.

AvatarForm wrote:
Sorry mate, but I believe you have no idea what you are talking about.

Or, just perhaps, you have no idea of my knowledge / experience / abiilty frmo your end, and are being needlessly antagonistic. Oh yeah, that one.

First logical fallacy, ad hominem attacks.

AvatarForm wrote:Arjac is to prevent being charged. not even the Dreadknight will charge him.

And? What part of "your point sink unit gets hit by rending EVERYTHING" did you miss. Why would I charge your unit when you 3+ PA guys drop like flies to assault and psycannon? I never even mentioned assaulting!
Second logical fallacy, strawman

AvatarForm wrote:It's not a point sink if you know how to use it.

Its a point sink thats only "trick" is to MM the turn it drops in (why yes I'd included that in my calculations for first turn woinds. Weird that I happen to know the simplest and most overrated trick in the book. Yawn) and then die to concerted fire. Every time, especially against an army which forces as many saves (thanks to profligate S6 weapons) as GK can.

Third logical fallacy - appeal to authority (essentially)

AvatarForm wrote:Your arguement is assuming that the SW player does not know how to play. Typical theory-crafting BS on your behalf.

WEll how about, maybe, explaining how 6" per turn units catch units standing off at the same range as you, and that have more ablative wounds than you do? (twin Psycannon PAGK) especially not the dreadknight, who in one turn is out of range of your unit, leaving it to trundle slwoly across the field until it becomes worthwhile killing

4th fallacy, but same as before - ad hominem.

AvatarForm wrote:You also forget that LOGAN gives the MM Long Fangs (5 x MM + Wolf Guard with Cyclone/Combi metla) RELENTLESS... = Move + SHOOT

CAPS are like SHOUTING and ANNOYING to read. You have also added another 70 odd points to your points sink, whcih you now cant fit in a Drop Pod - good going!

(2 spaces for Logan, 2 for Arjac, 2 for the Cyclone, 5 MM + Sarge = 12. Maths fail or cheating on your part?)

Additionally: did you not notice that I gave you shots at the dreadknight the only turn you can g'tee to be in range? I know what the High King rule does and had *gasp* factored it in to the maths above, to show the average numebr of wounds before the dreadknight moves out of range (it might not, as he has a good shot at killing Logan, especially with sword / paired fists)

AvatarForm wrote:Thanks for playing.

WEll, I make it 4 fallacies on your part, repeated attacks on the person not the argument, and zero supporting argument from yourself vis a vis any "tactic" despite your apparent great knowledge of them. SO, how's that score looking?

puma713 wrote:
Except the Wraithlord doesn't have psychic abilities, it can't wield a Daemonhammer and it can't wield Force weapons.

Did you see yesterday's article on Games-Workshop.com where they threw different things at the Dreadknights to see what could take them down?

Nothing did (except finally, two waves of big bug Tyranids) Then, at the end of the article, for fun they pitted three of them against a Stompa, and they took it out.

Yeah, I'm not scared of them either.

Oh please.

It's psychic abilities are limited to either +1 strength (on a model with DCCW's), or removing a model's Daemonic Gifts (i.e., one army).

Daemonhammer and Great Sword are terrible options, taking away 1 attack with the first and reducing you to S6, plus losing an attack, with the latter.

And the idea that anything tactical posted on GW's website can be taken seriously is laughable.

Here's what it comes down to: 4 wounds and a 5++ invul means it takes the EXACT SAME NUMBER of AP1 or 2 wounds to kill a Dreadknight as it does to kill a Trygon.

You can kill a Trygon, right???

Sure, it's more survivable than the Trygon against AP3 (Missile Launchers), but then, it doesn't get 7 attacks on the charge either, and it doesn't get re-rolls to hit (unless you take a Great Sword, reducing you S6 and giving you -1 attack.

The only cheesy thing about it is 30" Scout Shunting, and that is a gimmick. I gaurantee you that you will never, ever, face 3 Dreadknights Scout Shunting into your lines on turn 1. It's too many points, requires luck on the Grand Strategy roll, and forces the GK player to sacrifice S8 Riflemen Dreads.

As a tau player I actualy have a little less to fear now. So long as my screening kroot can keep them away I can outshoot the living snot out of them. I dont care how many dreadknights they have. Six broadsides with twin linked S10 AP 1 will bring the pain.

I love this topic . . . Its giving me many ideas . . . I want my codex now

Open to any page in the GK army list. That.

Seriously, I am already sick of GK. How many lists have we seen and the codex hasn't even been officially released beyond the black box.

over.

shealyr wrote:

puma713 wrote:
Except the Wraithlord doesn't have psychic abilities, it can't wield a Daemonhammer and it can't wield Force weapons.

Did you see yesterday's article on Games-Workshop.com where they threw different things at the Dreadknights to see what could take them down?

Nothing did (except finally, two waves of big bug Tyranids) Then, at the end of the article, for fun they pitted three of them against a Stompa, and they took it out.

Yeah, I'm not scared of them either.

Oh please.

It's psychic abilities are limited to either +1 strength (on a model with DCCW's), or removing a model's Daemonic Gifts (i.e., one army).

Daemonhammer and Great Sword are terrible options, taking away 1 attack with the first and reducing you to S6, plus losing an attack, with the latter.

And the idea that anything tactical posted on GW's website can be taken seriously is laughable.

Here's what it comes down to: 4 wounds and a 5++ invul means it takes the EXACT SAME NUMBER of AP1 or 2 wounds to kill a Dreadknight as it does to kill a Trygon.

So it doesn't get +1 Inv in close combat from its Nemesis Weapons? Also, the word on the street is that Nemesis Doomfists say "the WALKER" in its description. And since the Dreadknight isn't a walker, it doesn't increase its strength to 10. Think about it - you said it yourself - why give something +1 Strength if it already has Str. 10 weapons?

puma713 wrote:

shealyr wrote:

puma713 wrote:
Except the Wraithlord doesn't have psychic abilities, it can't wield a Daemonhammer and it can't wield Force weapons.

Did you see yesterday's article on Games-Workshop.com where they threw different things at the Dreadknights to see what could take them down?

Nothing did (except finally, two waves of big bug Tyranids) Then, at the end of the article, for fun they pitted three of them against a Stompa, and they took it out.

Yeah, I'm not scared of them either.

Oh please.

It's psychic abilities are limited to either +1 strength (on a model with DCCW's), or removing a model's Daemonic Gifts (i.e., one army).

Daemonhammer and Great Sword are terrible options, taking away 1 attack with the first and reducing you to S6, plus losing an attack, with the latter.

And the idea that anything tactical posted on GW's website can be taken seriously is laughable.

Here's what it comes down to: 4 wounds and a 5++ invul means it takes the EXACT SAME NUMBER of AP1 or 2 wounds to kill a Dreadknight as it does to kill a Trygon.

So it doesn't get +1 Inv in close combat from its Nemesis Weapons? Also, the word on the street is that Nemesis Doomfists say "the WALKER" in its description. And since the Dreadknight isn't a walker, it doesn't increase its strength to 10. Think about it - you said it yourself - why give something +1 Strength if it already has Str. 10 weapons?

And that wouldn't get FAQ'd as soon as GW realized what they've done? Think about it, why give something Str. 10 weapons if it can't use them?

puma713 wrote: So it doesn't get +1 Inv in close combat from its Nemesis Weapons?

Absolutely not.

Nemesis Force Sword grants +1 to a models existing invul in CC only.

Nemesis Great Sword (which is what a DK can take) allows rerolls to hit, to wound, and to armor penetrate.

puma713 wrote:Also, the word on the street is that Nemesis Doomfists say "the WALKER" in its description. And since the Dreadknight isn't a walker, it doesn't increase its strength to 10. Think about it - you said it yourself - why give something +1 Strength if it already has Str. 10 weapons?

Nemesis Doomfist is just a DCCW. RAW, no, it doesn't work (I don't think... I don't have the main rule book in front of me), but it will be played as giving the DK effective S10, and an extra attack for having 2.


I guess the question then would be, (A) does the main rulebook entry on DCCWs specifically say "walkers only", and (B) did Matt Ward intend this, or is he just lacking mental alacrity? I tend to lean towards the latter.

shealyr wrote:I guess the question then would be, (A) does the main rulebook entry on DCCWs specifically say "walkers only", and (B) did Matt Ward intend this, or is he just lacking mental alacrity? I tend to lean towards the latter.

Word. I guess it's just more proof that GW really should hire proof-readers...

Its odd as Matt is normally solid on rules.

The other issue is Jokaero stupidity. 6 in the unit? You get no bonuses, well done!"

Forgive me for being a jerk, but what I'm not looking forward to is facing an army of models that I find ugly. I don't mean to offend anyone that likes the models, honestly, if you do, I'm happy for you, but they're not to my liking.

Other than that, the only real complaint I have is that I had some interest of using Daemons in 40k, now if anyone in my group gets Grey Knights, I think not.

The Fragile Breath wrote:Forgive me for being a jerk, but what I'm not looking forward to is facing an army of models that I find ugly. I don't mean to offend anyone that likes the models, honestly, if you do, I'm happy for you, but they're not to my liking.

Other than that, the only real complaint I have is that I had some interest of using Daemons in 40k, now if anyone in my group gets Grey Knights, I think not.

I will still be interested to see how Khorne Daemons do against GK. I don't remember what all can have Collars of Khorne, but I believe Bloodcrushers, Bloodthirsters and Daemon Princes at the very least. All the things that you'd want to kill with Force Weapons that have a 2+ against Force Weapons. And many of them have armor besides their normal armor. Sure, the bloodletters don't and they'll feel the sting, but I interested to see the first Khorne vs. GK batrep.

I'm scared of the stupid Psyrileman Dreadnoughts - S8 will wreck my transports. Also, if I played Orks I would be terrified of the Vindicare, killing off your PK Nob isn't nice.

Purifiers look nasty, too. I know they have 2 Attacks base, and can have 4 psycannons in a squad, but what exactly does Purifying Flame do?

Wounds every enemy in the close combat on a 4+ BEFORE any attacks are made (so before I10!)

It ruins hordes.

Ah, okay. Awesome, the PK Nob-less Ork Mob thanks to the Vindicare Assassin will get, um, wrecked. Wow, Purifiers sound sick.

An army of Orange Space Monkies firing rending Multi-melta's from their heads for great justice.

Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:An army of Orange Space Monkies firing rending Multi-melta's from their heads for great justice.

I think this line sums up so many different levels of the GK Codex is.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:
Sorry mate, but I believe you have no idea what you are talking about.

Or, just perhaps, you have no idea of my knowledge / experience / abiilty frmo your end, and are being needlessly antagonistic. Oh yeah, that one.

First logical fallacy, ad hominem attacks.

AvatarForm wrote:Arjac is to prevent being charged. not even the Dreadknight will charge him.

And? What part of "your point sink unit gets hit by rending EVERYTHING" did you miss. Why would I charge your unit when you 3+ PA guys drop like flies to assault and psycannon? I never even mentioned assaulting!
Second logical fallacy, strawman

AvatarForm wrote:It's not a point sink if you know how to use it.

Its a point sink thats only "trick" is to MM the turn it drops in (why yes I'd included that in my calculations for first turn woinds. Weird that I happen to know the simplest and most overrated trick in the book. Yawn) and then die to concerted fire. Every time, especially against an army which forces as many saves (thanks to profligate S6 weapons) as GK can.

Third logical fallacy - appeal to authority (essentially)

AvatarForm wrote:Your arguement is assuming that the SW player does not know how to play. Typical theory-crafting BS on your behalf.

WEll how about, maybe, explaining how 6" per turn units catch units standing off at the same range as you, and that have more ablative wounds than you do? (twin Psycannon PAGK) especially not the dreadknight, who in one turn is out of range of your unit, leaving it to trundle slwoly across the field until it becomes worthwhile killing

4th fallacy, but same as before - ad hominem.

AvatarForm wrote:You also forget that LOGAN gives the MM Long Fangs (5 x MM + Wolf Guard with Cyclone/Combi metla) RELENTLESS... = Move + SHOOT

CAPS are like SHOUTING and ANNOYING to read. You have also added another 70 odd points to your points sink, whcih you now cant fit in a Drop Pod - good going!

(2 spaces for Logan, 2 for Arjac, 2 for the Cyclone, 5 MM + Sarge = 12. Maths fail or cheating on your part?)

Additionally: did you not notice that I gave you shots at the dreadknight the only turn you can g'tee to be in range? I know what the High King rule does and had *gasp* factored it in to the maths above, to show the average numebr of wounds before the dreadknight moves out of range (it might not, as he has a good shot at killing Logan, especially with sword / paired fists)

AvatarForm wrote:Thanks for playing.

WEll, I make it 4 fallacies on your part, repeated attacks on the person not the argument, and zero supporting argument from yourself vis a vis any "tactic" despite your apparent great knowledge of them. SO, how's that score looking?

Actually, you are still assuming that they are standing out in the open and that your sound theory is correct. Which it is not.

I love how you believe that your use of ad hominem, when applied to others, excludes your original ad hominem.

I will now leave you in the very safe hands of your fellow gamers to go play games with real people who actually play 40k on a table and not on an Internet forum with theorycrafted lists only.

AvatarForm wrote:
Actually, you are still assuming that they are standing out in the open and that your sound theory is correct. Which it is not.

But you WOULD be standing out in the open! You just drop podded! Otherwise we'd have to take into account that you have to roll for dangerous terrain. And really, if you're up against SW with that kind of drop pod loadout, would you have your DK linger close to area terrain? I know I wouldn't at least. Adding a wolf guard terminator when there wasn't one earlier, overloading your drop pod in the process, isn't that smart BTW. As we all know, Space Wolves in terminator armour counts as seven times the beard level of a power armoured Space Wolf, and when combined with the beard of Logan the beard-factor goes through the roof! The amount of Space Wolf beards in such a small area would create a signature so powerful that the Grey Knight Strike Cruiser that was somehow hiding from your ship in orbit can lock on to them and annihalate them with the Nemesis Exterminatusiator Cannon.

Avatar - please quote this "ad hominem" I made. I'll be waiting.

1) YOu just drop podded in. You're in the open, or damn close to it. Given you want to be able to fire all your MM at the target, at best 2 (assuming you illegal number is reduced by 1 so you can actually fit in the pod) will be around the pod; the other 5 will be in plain sight

If you wanted to be in cover, you're likely to need to run. The odds of there being cover *exactly* where you need it to shoot the dreadknight AND that your pod scatters into is is extremely low.

2) this isnt theory hammer. This is: how many wounds, on average, will you get in the ONE turn you will get before, if it wants, the DK is the other end of the table outside of your 24" range.

It is meant to show you that your "drop pod LF kill DK!!!!" is wrong, on average, unless the GK player has decided to walk their dreadknights.

Thats it. BTW - off to play in a tournament tomorrow, quick 1 dayer, and have 2 tournaments (UK IndyGT and Vanquish) in the next couple of weeks. I play *plenty* of real games. Just pointing out that your point sink is, indeed, a point sink. There's a reason it doesnt feature in actually competitive lists

BTW - any chance you'll acknowledge your inabilty to count / deliberate cheating on the drop pod numbers? It was really VERY funny.

FFS, just stop. You two are accomplishing what by arguing exactly? Oh, right. Getting the thread locked.

On topic! I'm not looking forward to a 3 cc-oriented dreadknight list. Sure, it's expensive, but I feel like the infantry units will be exceptional at controlling midfield, (and even their own deployment zone if they combat squad some units,) while dreadknights shunt about and force the opponent to focus fire before they run the table by themselves.

Who else actually refuses to field a DK without a Heavy Incinerator? Coz I sure as hell do! I have seen what they can do on a 12 12 10 fast vehicle, on a chassis like a DK these things are going to wreck face.

What I am disappointed about is the heavy psycannon and the heavy psilencer. I would be happy to put a normal psycannon on the DK for 10 points

shealyr wrote:

puma713 wrote: So it doesn't get +1 Inv in close combat from its Nemesis Weapons?

Absolutely not.

Nemesis Force Sword grants +1 to a models existing invul in CC only.

Nemesis Great Sword (which is what a DK can take) allows rerolls to hit, to wound, and to armor penetrate.

The funny thing is that I'd kill to have the Nemesis Great Sword on infantry and I'm sure that some people would love to see the Nemesis Force Sword on a Dreadknight.

An0maly1 wrote:As a tau player I actualy have a little less to fear now. So long as my screening kroot can keep them away I can outshoot the living snot out of them. I dont care how many dreadknights they have. Six broadsides with twin linked S10 AP 1 will bring the pain.

also Crisis suits with a plasma rifle or a fusion blaster (or both) could use jump-shoot-sump to avoid being assaulted while chipping away at it's wounds.

And that's why we have interceptors.

I just got a look at the codex last night. I think the 24" range on Psycannons will really have a lessoning effect on thier perceived power. They look great at killing all sorts of stuff - troops and vehicles - however you need to get close to do that and longer range weapons can whittle the unit down before the psycannon can shoot.

About the only thing the GK codex will do to my list is to give serious thought to changing a few meltaguns into plasmaguns.

Remember that while the dreadknight may lose the additional attack while using the daemon hammer, it still strikes at strength 10 but now in initiative order... That's some 4, 5 attacks at str 10 and ini 4. And since it's str 10 anyway, you can activate the force weapon (which counts against the number of psychic powers used in a turn) and thus you have 4 or 5 force weapons attacks at str 10. Against certain units this is BAD.

Though honestly I find the DK unimpressive compared to other things the GK can get... short range on its weapons (and the crappy heavy psycannon... I mean c'mon, at least heavy 2?) mean I'll take psyrifle dreads over it most of the time.

GeckoOBac wrote:Remember that while the dreadknight may lose the additional attack while using the daemon hammer, it still strikes at strength 10 but now in initiative order... That's some 4, 5 attacks at str 10 and ini 4. And since it's str 10 anyway, you can activate the force weapon (which counts against the number of psychic powers used in a turn) and thus you have 4 or 5 force weapons attacks at str 10. Against certain units this is BAD.

Though honestly I find the DK unimpressive compared to other things the GK can get... short range on its weapons (and the crappy heavy psycannon... I mean c'mon, at least heavy 2?) mean I'll take psyrifle dreads over it most of the time.

It always strikes at initiative order. DCCWs (assuming they are intended to work on the DK, but really, why wouldn't they?) increases your S to 10 and ignores saves. Doesn't work like a fist.

Fafnir wrote:The funny thing is that I'd kill to have the Nemesis Great Sword on infantry and I'm sure that some people would love to see the Nemesis Force Sword on a Dreadknight.

No kidding. Swap those two around, and you gots some real broken units.

Could you imagine 2+/3++ in close combat on the DK? It would never die.

As a Tau player? 10-30 scouting, shunting, first turn assaulting fast attack PA marines hitting my lines.

My Marines will just do what they do.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

GeckoOBac wrote:Remember that while the dreadknight may lose the additional attack while using the daemon hammer, it still strikes at strength 10 but now in initiative order... That's some 4, 5 attacks at str 10 and ini 4. And since it's str 10 anyway, you can activate the force weapon (which counts against the number of psychic powers used in a turn) and thus you have 4 or 5 force weapons attacks at str 10. Against certain units this is BAD.

Though honestly I find the DK unimpressive compared to other things the GK can get... short range on its weapons (and the crappy heavy psycannon... I mean c'mon, at least heavy 2?) mean I'll take psyrifle dreads over it most of the time.

It always strikes at initiative order. DCCWs (assuming they are intended to work on the DK, but really, why wouldn't they?) increases your S to 10 and ignores saves. Doesn't work like a fist.

You're right... Perhaps it was different in fourth? I seem to recall they worked like PFs... Now that I read again the codex though, it seems to me that the sword + DCCW combo wouldn't make it lose the additional attack... I guess it can be argued it's a special weapon + ccw combo... Daemon hammer otoh will make you lose the additional attack... For no reason? I mean, you get str 10 anyway, nemesis doomfists are force weapons anyway (since they are "nemesis") and the daemon hammer has no other advantage... So, what's the point?

shealyr wrote:

Fafnir wrote:The funny thing is that I'd kill to have the Nemesis Great Sword on infantry and I'm sure that some people would love to see the Nemesis Force Sword on a Dreadknight.

No kidding. Swap those two around, and you gots some real broken units.

Could you imagine 2+/3++ in close combat on the DK? It would never die.

4++. The Dreadknight has a 5++ save base.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:4++. The Dreadknight has a 5++ save base.

Ah yeah. I keep forgetting about the invul nerf.

If dreadknights were able to carry power staves, it would be real scary!
2+/2++ save in combat...
Luckally thy can't so everything is all good, right?
Wrong!
They are GK, and GK have str5 bolters, and force weapons, and wait, they have storm bolters.
Does anyone know if they still have 'True Grit' (uses storm bolters as pistols)?

Sadly, no.

That's one good thing for nonGK players, good FOR GK players

Vasarto wrote:What do you think are some of the things you are not gonna be looking forward to fighting against when the Grey knights come out?

Here is a small list of what I do not looking forward to seeing on the battle field against me.

1. Termi's as a basic troop choice - Anyone who plays them will only use them at all point levels. So that will not be comfy seeing nothing by an entire 2/5 army standing in front of me.

Doesn't bother me in the least. If they want to make an army with 20something models in 2000pts, I'll be happy to table them in two or three turns.

2. Nemesis Dread Knight - I do not know what this thing is or what it does but from the look of the GW model I never want to see it. It looks scary.

It's much less scary than its leaked playtest stats, they toned it down a whole hell of a lot. It'll be one of the best MC's out there to be sure, but if you can deal with 3 Trygons or 3 Carnifexes you can certainly deal with 3 of these.

3. I heard some scary things about their snipers. If it comes true than this will be the third option I do not want to see.

I wouldn't be too worried, they cost as much as a Leman Russ tank and only get one shot a turn that is only going to be harming one model.

I simply cannot wait till the new Ork Codex comes out. I think it should be out sometime around late 2012 or mid 2013.

Just think of how broken that is gonna be. I mean think about it! Orks are the very spirit of 40k! No army represents what 40k is all about better than them, Not even Vanilla Marines. Wanna argue that? Ok so why is it called ard boys and not terminator or Tactical tournament?

Why are those slips you fill out all in ork talk eh? I will tell ya why! Its because Orks are da spirit of this game and I just know they are gonna do a lot of OP and Fun stuff with that new codex!

AvatarForm wrote:
Dreadknight - I have a squad of Long Fangs (drop pod option) with Logan and Arjac Rockfist... where is the problem?

The problem being that you're spending 620pts to combat a 130pt model might be one? Hell you could get 3 Dreadknights with Gatling Psilencers and Heavy Psycannons, or 3 naked Dreadknights with a Venerable Psyammo Rifleman with points to spare for the cost of that one squad. If you're including that Cyclone Termi, then you're at almost 700pts for that single unit, in which case you could take two S8 Rifleman Dreads and three Dreadknights for the same points.

I know what I'd rather take.

(hint, not the Long Fangs)

Vasarto wrote:I simply cannot wait till the new Ork Codex comes out. I think it should be out sometime around late 2012 or mid 2013.

Just think of how broken that is gonna be. I mean think about it! Orks are the very spirit of 40k! No army represents what 40k is all about better than them, Not even Vanilla Marines. Wanna argue that? Ok so why is it called ard boys and not terminator or Tactical tournament?

Why are those slips you fill out all in ork talk eh? I will tell ya why! Its because Orks are da spirit of this game and I just know they are gonna do a lot of OP and Fun stuff with that new codex!

The statue outside GW HQ is a Space Marine, not an Ork. 'Nuff said.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Vasarto wrote:I simply cannot wait till the new Ork Codex comes out. I think it should be out sometime around late 2012 or mid 2013.

Just think of how broken that is gonna be. I mean think about it! Orks are the very spirit of 40k! No army represents what 40k is all about better than them, Not even Vanilla Marines. Wanna argue that? Ok so why is it called ard boys and not terminator or Tactical tournament?

Why are those slips you fill out all in ork talk eh? I will tell ya why! Its because Orks are da spirit of this game and I just know they are gonna do a lot of OP and Fun stuff with that new codex!

The statue outside GW HQ is a Space Marine, not an Ork. 'Nuff said.

Whateveh Thats just cuz they like Marines! I am sure they all have Ork Statues in front of their homes....watching over their house like gargoyles.

My tau and tyri's aren't going to stand a chance are they..:\
grey knights sound quite over powered, not looking forward to having to face them thats for sure.

And the whole termi's being put as troops the deathwing do that more then enough but they never had what the grey knights do, Could be a nerf coming :p

Jokearo (Spell Check?) Spam. That better be banned from my FLGS... Termies dont really scare me much since Splitter Fire is so hot.

Gecko - DCCW have NEVER been powerfists. they are power weapons that double your strength, nothing else

You DO lose the attack if you take the greatsword; 2 different special CCW means no bonus attack, ever!

Both my DK have heavy incinerators. REasonable point cost, but means they can reach out and touch up to 24" away.

Vaktathi - what you missed was there were 12 spaces used in the +Cyclone list (illegal), the poster was now magically claiming they were all in cover (despite cover not being mentioned by anyone as being an issue, I just mentioned them getting shot by everything, and the unlikely chance of you shoving them in cover, even if you land near enough) - the poster then emoragequit

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You DO lose the attack if you take the greatsword; 2 different special CCW means no bonus attack, ever!

Blood Angels Codex, page 60 wrote:
A blood fist is a Dreadnought Close Combat weapon, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. If a Dreadnought is equipped with a blood fist and a force weapon, it must choose which one it is going to use in each round of close combat, but will still gain one additional attack.

Ah, but a bloodfist is NOT a doomfist.

They may both be ccw on a dread-type, but that is where the comparison should end.

Grim Smasha wrote:Oh, and the Dreadknight is far better than a Wraithlord.

I don't really agree. When I saw the Dreadknight was T6, I knew it was over for them right then and there. Everything shooting at it will wound it on a 2+ and given that it's probably the tallest thing a non-Apocalypse game will have on the table, everyone will be able to shoot at it the whole game. Almost every army that has decent assault choices will have S6+ powerey goodness to smack it around with in assaults as well. This leaves the Dreadknight with a 5++ which will make it die to most assault troops in one turn.

I think the fact that a Wraithlord is T8 makes it far superior. Yeah it has a lot less firepower than a Dreadknight, but it will have a lot more survivability. They probably should have kept the invuln save of the Dreadknight a 4++ or bumped it up to at least T7.

You're going to find the few people who like the model fielding it because of the model, and no one else will have one. "Competitive" lists will probably have purifier/dread/Inquisitor spam with maybe one Dreadknight to play boogie man and draw fire.

For less than what a couple MM/HF Land Speeders cost, S6 T6 W4 2+/5++ with 3-4 attacks, is a bargain. It was downright broken in the playtest leak, now it's merely "really good".

Vaktathi - what you missed was there were 12 spaces used in the +Cyclone list (illegal), the poster was now magically claiming they were all in cover (despite cover not being mentioned by anyone as being an issue, I just mentioned them getting shot by everything, and the unlikely chance of you shoving them in cover, even if you land near enough) - the poster then emoragequit

That too. Sounds like he got all excited by his Über combo, then realized it was grossly expensive and overly finicky (and illegal) for what it was required to kill, but didn't want to own up to it.

Fafnir - what the feth has the Blood Angel BLOODfist got to do with a Grey Knight DOOMfist. They are NOT the same weapon.

Vaktathi - the irony was telling us they were off to play real gamers. Gamers who presumably let them cheat

It was a points sink and is pretty damn uncompetitive against anyone, never mind this one target that can simply flit out of range for the entire game if it really wants to (not thazt it would - it has a damn good chance of mincing the unit before getting killed, as Logan wounds on 5s)

Im looking forward to fighting the GK, even with that stupid "Oh you killed my squad hero? Well you Im taking that model to the grave with him." The dreadknight is scary, but I dont think he has enough punch and can get ganked easily against poison and snipers, or does he get FNP with a 2+ save?

To be honest, its basic scout shunting that bother me.

Termies and the knight arent the fastest things in the world, so lance spam will remove them if and when needed.

9 lances
7 hits
6 wounds
2 passed inv saves
4 unsaved wounds
dead

May run into a 2nd turn of shooting, but thats fine.
Termies drop just as easy.

Mainly its the scout shunting that will be a pain in the arse until it gets FAQ'ed.

chromedog wrote:Ah, but a bloodfist is NOT a doomfist.

They may both be ccw on a dread-type, but that is where the comparison should end.

Oooh, you're right. I always thought of Bloodfist being just a stupid renaming of CCW, but I guess that since they do have separate entries, you have to treat them as such. fething Ward.

OK I just read through the actual codex. Its broken as hell. Here is what some of the things I remember


Purifiers and paladins as troop choices. Terminators are a BASIC Troop choice without the need for a HQ that costs more than a land raider to use.

Purifiers force anything they go into close combat with to all take armor saves. So if they assault or are assaulted by a 30 boy squad. That Ork player must take 30 armor saves before combat even begins.
Those wounds goes towards the winning value at the end of combat. Example! Purifier deal six wounds with their ability and take out four more in CC. They are winning by 10 wounds.

Paladins when accompanied by this thing. Are 2 wound termi's with feel no pain rule.. Also able to become troop choices but only if the Grand Master is your HQ.

"MOST" units in the entire codex have a WS of 6 or higher. Most options have WS of 7-8. Basically half the codex is a CC machine god.

The Dread Knight thing...w/e it was called. Is a monster.

I have read the actual hard copy of the codex and Grey Knights are now going to replace Blood Angels by a "Large" Margine of what chapter is the beast in CC.
Mephiston or whomever else you are using PALES in comparison to roughly 75% of the Grey knights codex and 90% of the grey knights codex could easily deal with Anything the Space Wolf Codex has.

Grey Knights are not something that its a matter of time to learn how to deal with. What I saw was the biggest OP thing I have ever seen from ANY codex thus far.
The only thing that I could possibly see being an equalizer are high initiative power weapons or someone whom spams Wolftooth necklace. If you are not doing that. Winning in CC against Grey knights will
be impossible for any current army.

So my suggestion. Use those STR10 Ap1 Large Blast templates. Spam the living crap out of Ap 2 and 1 items. Shoot the ever living crap out of them and hope that the Grey Knight player did not put a whole lot of their awesome heavy options in. Because that is the only way to beat a Grey Knight player when that codex drops.

Vasarto wrote:
Purifiers and paladins as troop choices.

Purifiers as troops requires you to take an absolutely horrible special character, and Paladins as troops are massive point sinks that will be quickly felled by any army with a decent amount of anti-armour weaponry.

Terminators are a BASIC Troop choice without the need for a HQ that costs more than a land raider to use.

From a fluff perspective, that actually makes sense. From a gameplay perspective, they are quite expensive, and won't be the starring in most competetive lists because they just can't bring the numbers.

Purifiers force anything they go into close combat with to all take armor saves. So if they assault or are assaulted by a 30 boy squad. That Ork player must take 30 armor saves before combat even begins.

Wrong. Each enemy model is wounded on a 4+, and then they must take an armour save (they do this once for each Purifier Squad they are in combat with). It's very powerful, especially if used every single turn, but requires the purifiers to forgo hammerhand (unless with an independant character to cast it for them) and is largely useless against heavy infantry and walkers.

Those wounds goes towards the winning value at the end of combat. Example! Purifier deal six wounds with their ability and take out four more in CC. They are winning by 10 wounds.

That's kind of the idea. Got to deal with hordes somehow.

Paladins when accompanied by this thing. Are 2 wound termi's with feel no pain rule.. Also able to become troop choices but only if the Grand Master is your HQ.

And with absurdly expensive apothecaries, don't expect to see this around too much. And they become troops if Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is your HQ. That alone is a 275 point investment.

"MOST" units in the entire codex have a WS of 6 or higher. Most options have WS of 7-8. Basically half the codex is a CC machine god.

Actually, the majority of units in the entire codex have WS4. Only Paladins, Dreadknights, Assassins, 2 Henchmen upgrade characters and HQ units have anything higher.

The Dread Knight thing...w/e it was called. Is a monster.

It's really not. If you can kill a Trygon, you should have no trouble taking out a Dreadknight.

I have read the actual hard copy of the codex

Judging on your views on the matter, I doubt it.

and Grey Knights are now going to replace Blood Angels by a "Large" Margine of what chapter is the beast in CC.
Mephiston or whomever else you are using PALES in comparison to roughly 75% of the Grey knights codex and 90% of the grey knights codex could easily deal with Anything the Space Wolf Codex has.

Until someone takes a mechanized list.

Vasarto wrote:

"MOST" units in the entire codex have a WS of 6 or higher. Most options have WS of 7-8. Basically half the codex is a CC machine god.

Um, "most"? Really?

Terminators, Purifiers, Strike Squads, Purgation Squads, Ghost Knights, Techmarines, Crusaders, Dreads, Inquisitors, are all WS4. Paladins, Dreadknights, Arco Flagellants, Venerable Dreadnoughts and the like are WS5. It's only the assassins and HQ's that are higher than WS6+, and practically everything else is WS3.

Purifiers and paladins as troop choices. Terminators are a BASIC Troop choice without the need for a HQ that costs more than a land raider to use.

Purifiers are probably the only really truly broken thing remaining, however require a terrible HQ to make troops. In armies using Paladins as troops, well, they'll likely consist of 12-20 models at 2000pts, they'll get tabled by many armies in two or three turns. Basic Terminators aren't all that impressive, and have taken a *significant* nerfing from their previous incarnation, even if they are a bit cheaper they aren't as cost effective. They certainly aren't as good as TH/SS termi's.

The Dread Knight thing...w/e it was called. Is a monster.

Yes its scary, but if you can deal with a Trygon or a Carnifex, you can deal with one of these just as easily.

I have read the actual hard copy of the codex and Grey Knights are now going to replace Blood Angels by a "Large" Margine of what chapter is the beast in CC.
Mephiston or whomever else you are using PALES in comparison to roughly 75% of the Grey knights codex and 90% of the grey knights codex could easily deal with Anything the Space Wolf Codex has.

How so?

If the playtest book had remained the same, perhaps, but without S7 T7 4+invul Dreadknights, no 2+ invuls against shooting or enhanced invuls for swords outside of CC, and unlimited melta/plasmagun Henchmen, it's been toned down quite a bit. It was quite crazy before, but not anywhere near as bad.

Grey Knights are not something that its a matter of time to learn how to deal with. What I saw was the biggest OP thing I have ever seen from ANY codex thus far.
The only thing that I could possibly see being an equalizer are high initiative power weapons or someone whom spams Wolftooth necklace. If you are not doing that. Winning in CC against Grey knights will
be impossible for any current army.

If one's playing Space Wolves or Assault Marine BA's I wouldn't worry too much. Those basic PAGK's only get 1 A each, unlike the typical 3 attacks of a Grey Hunter, and cost 33% more.

Grey Hunter spam with a couple Rune Priests is going to be a nightmare matchup for Grey Knights.

So my suggestion. Use those STR10 Ap1 Large Blast templates. Spam the living crap out of Ap 2 and 1 items. Shoot the ever living crap out of them and hope that the Grey Knight player did not put a whole lot of their awesome heavy options in. Because that is the only way to beat a Grey Knight player when that codex drops.

Or just realize that most of their units are no harder to through normal shooting than normal marines, and they won't have the numbers that other marine armies have? Multilaser spam will work even better against GK's than it does against other marine armies due to their smaller numbers.

It's not like most of these units are any harder to kill than other marines. Paladins can be a *****, but any AP2 shooting is going to make them unhappy.

Pretty sure I read it as when purifiers go into combat it was they all take armor saves...Maybe I read that +4 save part wrong.

Anyway, Most of what I saw had WS 6+ That I know I did not read wrong. Trust me, That codex is OP'ed. Sure a lot of the models were high cost but for how powered they are I think they are just right.
I went through six pages and everyone on each page had +6 WS accompanied by good states and higher BS as well.

Of course I may had exaggerated a little here and there but...dang man...why cannot I have a WS 8 character?!

Also one of the psychic powers were pretty awesome too. It was...warp...something. Cant remember it exactly but it was pretty nice! Probably close to how good JOTWW is.

Vasarto wrote:Pretty sure I read it as when purifiers go into combat it was they all take armor saves...Maybe I read that +4 save part wrong.

Anyway, Most of what I saw had WS 6+ That I know I did not read wrong. Trust me, That codex is OP'ed. Sure a lot of the models were high cost but for how powered they are I think they are just right.
I went through six pages and everyone on each page had +6 WS accompanied by good states and higher BS as well.

Of course I may had exaggerated a little here and there but...dang man...why cannot I have a WS 8 character?!

Also one of the psychic powers were pretty awesome too. It was...warp...something. Cant remember it exactly but it was pretty nice! Probably close to how good JOTWW is.

That wouldn't happen to be the HQ pages you read, would it? Becasue there's a load of WS6 and BS6 there. Also, the Avatar of Khaine has WS10, must be really OP...

Vasarto wrote:Pretty sure I read it as when purifiers go into combat it was they all take armor saves...Maybe I read that +4 save part wrong.

Yes. Yes you did. You read it horribly, horribly wrong.

Anyway, Most of what I saw had WS 6+ That I know I did not read wrong.

Then you know incorrectly.

Trust me, That codex is OP'ed.

Judging by your horrid track record, trusting you is the last thing I'd do on this subject.

Sure a lot of the models were high cost but for how powered they are I think they are just right.

Then there's not much to complain about, now is there?

I went through six pages and everyone on each page had +6 WS accompanied by good states and higher BS as well.

See above, love.

Of course I may had exaggerated a little here and there but

Yes. You certainly did.

...dang man...why cannot I have a WS 8 character?!

Because judging by your Avatar, you play Space Wolves. And your characters should be hitting on threes anyway.

Vasarto wrote:
Anyway, Most of what I saw had WS 6+ That I know I did not read wrong. Trust me, That codex is OP'ed.

No, you did read it wrong. I've got it in front of me. The vast majority of the stuff is WS4, WS6+ is pretty much *only* on the GK HQ's and the Assassins. Paladins/Dreadknights/Venerable Dreads/Librarians/Arco Flagellants and Justicar Thawn are WS5, the Assassins and GK HQ's are WS6+. Everything else (e.g. Terminators, PAGK's, Purifiers, Henchmen, Dreads, etc) is WS3 or WS4.

I went through six pages and everyone on each page had +6 WS accompanied by good states and higher BS as well.

You might want to recheck that. All the vehicles are BS4 except the Venerable Dread, and every unit is BS4 except Henchmen, Assassins, and some of the HQ's. There are 8 WS6/7/8 units in the army, all of them Assassins or Grey Knight HQ's/SC's.

Of course I may had exaggerated a little here and there but...dang man...why cannot I have a WS 8 character?!

For which army? Space Wolves? They hardly need it, lets be honest they aren't exactly lacking for much with their current book in any way shape or form. Anyways, does it matter in most situations? It's irrelevant against 98% of units.

Also, you already have a wargear item that allows you to hit anything on 3's regardless don't you? If you've got that, the only time WS8 would matter over WS6 is if fighting WS1/2/3 stuff or WS7+ stuff hitting you back.

Also one of the psychic powers were pretty awesome too. It was...warp...something. Cant remember it exactly but it was pretty nice! Probably close to how good JOTWW is.

Yes it's good, and more of the same "init test or die" crap, but it also requires the Psyker to be *significantly* closer to their target than JOTWW and can't snipe models either.

Im not looking forward to the obvious lists people will make, but i am looking forward to rail gunning me some dread knights (: and maybe have my carnifex charge head long into one to see just what might happen :p

xVoid

I'm not looking forward to Purifier Squads at all, they have the answer for everything:

Purifiers x10: 5 Halberds, 4 Psycannons, Razorback, TL-Assault Cannon, Psybolt - 370

Combat squad this, and you've got 2.5 very effective scoring units. Purifiers with Halberds pretty much wreck my current Space Wolf build which relies on Grey Hunters with all the toys in Razorbacks. Their ability to swing @ I6 with halberds will just wreck my entire unit before I get a chance to swing. 4 Str 7 TL Rending shots is nasty, and the shooty side puts out 8 str 7 rending shots on the move. Yeeouch.

Because of this my tournament armies will probably have to be completely shooty. That's of course if they end up being a popular as Blood Angels, which I think they might be even more-so.

Having psychic defense in an absolute must have now as well. Rune Priests are now the first thing I put into my list.

ChaosxVoid wrote:Im not looking forward to the obvious lists people will make, but i am looking forward to rail gunning me some dread knights (: and maybe have my carnifex charge head long into one to see just what might happen :p

xVoid

carnifex? probably die before it can even retaliate... force weapon + str 10 at ini 4? Railgunning though....

Griever wrote:I'm not looking forward to Purifier Squads at all, they have the answer for everything:

Purifiers x10: 5 Halberds, 4 Psycannons, Razorback, TL-Assault Cannon, Psybolt - 370

Combat squad this, and you've got 2.5 very effective scoring units. Purifiers with Halberds pretty much wreck my current Space Wolf build which relies on Grey Hunters with all the toys in Razorbacks. Their ability to swing @ I6 with halberds will just wreck my entire unit before I get a chance to swing. 4 Str 7 TL Rending shots is nasty, and the shooty side puts out 8 str 7 rending shots on the move. Yeeouch.

Because of this my tournament armies will probably have to be completely shooty. That's of course if they end up being a popular as Blood Angels, which I think they might be even more-so.

Having psychic defense in an absolute must have now as well. Rune Priests are now the first thing I put into my list.

Such a Purifier unit isn't exactly cheap at 370pts. You can get a kitted mechanized IG platoon for that many points or two 6 man 5x ML Long Fang squads with HB Razorbacks for the same price.

That said, I don't think most people are going to see something that knocks Greyzorhunterback lists as a bad thing.

Purifiers units are such a bargain... I mean... Why one would ever pick a purgation unit?
For 4 more points you get very powerful psychic power, MUCH cheaper special weapons (psylencer for free and psycannons for half the cost), two attacks and better leadership...

Ok, you need a full unit to field 4 special weapons but... Since they're that good I really wonder why you wouldn't want one? I mean, they can even be made troops with a not to costly character...

I can see many usefull ways of kitting them out...
full psycannons + halberds for a flexible squad.
halberds and falchions + a couple inci for hordes
And then you have the transports... Probably some kind of razorback for the first setup, to deliver the CC component and a rhino for the second, to tackle hordes.

[Edit: now really... Have I missed something about purgation squads? beside the fact that they can take a teleport homer, they don't seem much useful... Though their power is cool, the fact that their weapon at most hit at 24" means that it's quite useless. Though it would be fun with incinerators... astral aim through a building and drop template... Astral aim grants you 4+ cover but incinerator ignores cover... Lulz ensue ]

GeckoOBac wrote:

ChaosxVoid wrote:Im not looking forward to the obvious lists people will make, but i am looking forward to rail gunning me some dread knights (: and maybe have my carnifex charge head long into one to see just what might happen :p

xVoid

carnifex? probably die before it can even retaliate... force weapon + str 10 at ini 4? Railgunning though....

I know i just wanted to see my carni run in like a crazy beast...and railgunning may do well 2 xv-88 plus hammerhead all at once has to be enough to take down optimus pri..i mean dreadknight

ChaosxVoid wrote:

GeckoOBac wrote:

ChaosxVoid wrote:Im not looking forward to the obvious lists people will make, but i am looking forward to rail gunning me some dread knights (: and maybe have my carnifex charge head long into one to see just what might happen :p

xVoid

carnifex? probably die before it can even retaliate... force weapon + str 10 at ini 4? Railgunning though....

I know i just wanted to see my carni run in like a crazy beast...and railgunning may do well 2 xv-88 plus hammerhead all at once has to be enough to take down optimus pri..i mean dreadknight

Yeah well dunno how many shots it's that but in truth it all depends on the luck on the invul roll. 5+ though isn't much

All luck of the roll i guess im not sure how many shots it is now as i have not played tau since last edition.