I don't remember any army ever so heavily ballyhooed and bandwagoned before. It is crazy.

Well, that depends. How long have you been playing the game?

They are certainly the most irritating. I don't think I've ever seen a bigger bandwagon. In anything.

The best 40K army ever (compared to competition) was Pete Haines' Chaos Space Marines. From Iron Warriors spamming true T5 Obliterators, to Khorne Glaive Daemon Princes doing first turn charges with double 4+ invulnerables, to infiltrating daemonic speed S6 lieutenants, to entirely infiltrating Marine armies, to armies with six Havoc squads with full tank hunting missiles, to untargetable and therefore essentially unkillable Siren Daemon Princes (the dumbest unit and rule that has ever existed in GW games), to Defilers and Basilisks abusing the broken ordnance template rules in destroying enemy vehicles (1 battlecannon taking out 4 vehicles) while also abusing daemonic possession combined with the stupid hull down rules, nothing came close to that book. Even their Daemonbomb lists worked like a charm.

The only other army that has produced such skewed attendance and high scoring results in GW games was Daemons of Chaos in Warhammer Fantasy. When a top10 in a GT of 150 players has 8 or 9 players playing the same army, something is wrong.

Grey Knights don't come even close. They're yet another good 5th edition codex, and they've all been good with the exception of Tyranids.

The bandwagon could fill all of Africa. Grey is the new LAME. Please don't attempt to circumvent the language filter. Doing so is a violation of Dakka rules.

Grey Knights will have trouble with mechanized armies, and that'll keep them from becoming the top army.

Somehow I think the S8 autocannon dreads say otherwise. Don't get me wrong, I'm not throwing the the towel or even going to assume they are OP, but that option alone makes them good against light armour spam.

Black Fiend wrote:The bandwagon could fill all of Africa. Grey is the new gehy.

You realize that you are yes-man-ing your own thread right? Did you not think anyone would notice?

Is this a thread about Space Wolves?

Or has a year passed?

Grey Knights will have trouble with mechanized armies, and that'll keep them from becoming the top army.

That couldn't be further from the truth. Whatever it has trouble it (if anything) it's not mech. Of course individual lists might be bad because people make bad army lists all the time but as a book they certainly are right up there.

97 points for 3 meltas and a Chimera. 135 points for unshakeable quad S8 BS4 autocannons. Repeat to maximum and you haven't even spent 1000 points yet.

Call it a cliche but how could anyone say any army is better than another, each have pro's and con's. Its fine saying GK have a S8 autocannon to tear apart mech lists but that doesn't mean a commander will take any or enough to prevent the opponant using target saturation tactics to overcome them which is a common strength of Guard. All armies have at least one weapon to perform each role and most armies have plenty. Space marines have the tools for pretty much any job but that doesn't mean the command will dish enough of them out to his units.

Imperium can BE MY BEST FRIENDS FOREVER.

IG is the best army ever, the sky is falling!

OMG, SW are so OP, nothing will ever beat them!

WTF?! Mephiston is uber-cheese, BA will never lose a match!

etc, etc... Every second dex or so produces this response, after a month or two people will have played some games and figured out how to deal with it.

Except for SW, they really are cheese. Screw SW in their furry butts.

It's every second dex because every second dex is an army of the Imperium. Xenos will never get a dex as OP as SW or even as good as they've had in previous editions.

GK do seem powerful but many elements (such as low model count and unit specialization) remind me of my Eldar and those two aspects of Eldar are very challenging. Players who jump into GK thinking they are the new MEQ win button will be surprised that they can't point at the table and and erase their opponent's army.

dnanoodle wrote:It's every second dex because every second dex is an army of the Imperium. Xenos will never get a dex as OP as SW or even as good as they've had in previous editions.

GK do seem powerful but many elements (such as low model count and unit specialization) remind me of my Eldar and those two aspects of Eldar are very challenging. Players who jump into GK thinking they are the new MEQ win button will be surprised that they can't point at the table and and erase their opponent's army.

Thats what Guard does

dnanoodle wrote:It's every second dex because every second dex is an army of the Imperium. Xenos will never get a dex as OP as SW or even as good as they've had in previous editions.

I don't know about that. Tyranids didn't get any love for their last dex, but DE did really well for themselves. They sorta flew under the raidar (ha ha, get it?) as far as people freaking out and calling them OP goes, but they're a very powerful army.

ten bucks says that April 10th there will be dozens of "proven method to beat new GK codex", all of which will be true.

There is a simple rule for fear, it is infinitely easier to fear what you do not know, experience, it is easy to fear the intangible.

Know what your scared of so you dont ever have to be scared again.

Am I the only one who thinks Necrons are going to kick the crap out of GK? And anyone with a land raider or two?

Mannahnin wrote:Is this a thread about Space Wolves?

Or has a year passed?

High Five!

A single landraider is nothing to be scared of, a Vindicare should have little difficulty in disposing of one.

Necron monolith spam will be very scary for PAGK and Inquisitional armies, but Terminator armies will do fine.

Dashofpepper wrote:Am I the only one who thinks Necrons are going to kick the crap out of GK? And anyone with a land raider or two?

Well, for most AV 14 the psycannon will have a 7.5% chance of penning per shot. Considering you get 2 shots on the move or 4 standing still, that's pretty good.

The vindicare should also have no problem crushing Monoliths and other Av 14 mech, although he's fragile and only has a 36" threat range.

I've a feeling the next Necron codex will change the army in a big way. Theres a lot of rumours about them getting FNP instead of the broken WBB. That would pose a problem for Necrons so I would imagine there won't be a phase out and the price of the warriors will be lowered. I've also heard they're getting a load of new supporting units and a new C'tan. Either way I think it'll bring the Necron 'dex back down to reality. When my Demolisher cannon hits you.....Your down and you stay that way.....

No Dash, you are not the only one who thinks that. I expect that people will return to whining about Necrons soon...even moreso than the whining that still continues today concerning Monoliths.

GW better do a bangup job with Necrons.

Dashofpepper wrote:Am I the only one who thinks Necrons are going to kick the crap out of GK? And anyone with a land raider or two?

I think that Land raiders are overpriced bull's eyes.

Its a terrible opinion but I'm a tau player, and for the same price I could get three twin linked S10 AP1 rail guns and three four shot SMART missile systems. Which I feel is a much wiser investment.

As a former space marine player I also think so, a good devestator msquad armed with four lascannons can still come out a tad cheaper. Now you've got a sure way of destroying AV14 armour and a surefire sniper team that can kick ass. And four heavy bolters can also shred apart enemy teams.

As much as I enjoyed my switch to tau, my one great regret is leaving behind the devestator squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

snake wrote:They are certainly the most irritating. I don't think I've ever seen a bigger bandwagon. In anything.

change,

change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.

I play a Wraith Wing Necron list; my warriors are minimal and only there because they have to be.

If the only answer to Monoliths are terminators and a vindicare assassin, I'm not worried. I don't see GK terminators making competitive builds, and my Deceiver babysits my Monoliths; I don't think they'd dare come close anyway. The vindicare is a bit more annoying. But that's what wraith assaults, deep-striking monoliths, and teleportation is for.

I'm looking forward to playing some GK armies.

Dashofpepper wrote:Am I the only one who thinks Necrons are going to kick the crap out of GK? And anyone with a land raider or two?

Yes/no. A lot of the GK lists that I've seen are going to fare extremely poorly vs. any kind of dual LR build, and maybe even some single-LR ones. On the other hand I don't see Necrons doing anything at all to them, at least until their new Codex comes out.

Necrons have always been devoid of psykers. Here's to hoping they get a T10 monstrous creature.

I see my prediction of the proliferation of 'remove from table' effects was right. At this rate a quarter of the Necron army will have some way to remove models from the table, bypassing EW and most saves somehow.

Was it just me, or do the GK lack eternal warrior on the non-special characters? And a Necron army that actually takes Pariahs, or a WH army with the old psi-assassin, would be hilarious against GK.

Black Fiend wrote:The bandwagon could fill all of Africa. Grey is the new gehy.

You misspelled lame. Don't troll.

Is there anyway to top this thead? Is it the best thread ever?

Do GK have anything to answer the monolith?

The dreadknight doesn't work, he needs min. S8 to get a glance. No 2d6 on armor pen.

The vindicare is screwed too I think. I didn't read it carefully, so I could be wrong. He can shoot other things of course.

The psycannons can't hurt it.

The autocannon dreads can glance on 6. Whoopdi-doo.

I can't believe someone used cheesy and Necrons in the same paragragh. They are one of the weakest armies out there.

To answer the OP's question, no they are not. 2nd ed. Eldar were. That's most of the reason I didn't play the game. I saw huge power imbalances, much worse than now. I started in 3rd when (before codexes came out) most things were relatively equal.

Anavrin wrote:

dnanoodle wrote:It's every second dex because every second dex is an army of the Imperium. Xenos will never get a dex as OP as SW or even as good as they've had in previous editions.

I don't know about that. Tyranids didn't get any love for their last dex, but DE did really well for themselves. They sorta flew under the raidar (ha ha, get it?) as far as people freaking out and calling them OP goes, but they're a very powerful army.

To be honest I don't understand how that happened to the 'nid dex. I used to play nids and loved them. Now nothing in the codex makes sense. Especially the conspicuous lack of assault grenades.

Anyway I'm not saying that xenos codices are always fail or even that some aren't made competitive and even with variety. But the last three imperial codices are pretty much the top three armies at the moment. Maybe I've got a chip on my shoulder because I play against SWs and IG a lot but I really think those two books are grossly over-powered. My buddy does little more then walk run and shoot missiles, tactics be damned. It's the same against his IG but with Lascannons. It's nothing like how xenos have it. I figure that with PC/Console games like Space Marine and movies like Ultra Marines, however, there's some marketing strategies imbedded into these books too.

The GK codex is exciting to me because like the BA codex it's powerful but has a lot of weak points and requires units to seek good match ups in order to play effectively. I think they take a lot more work to play well than certain SW and IG builds.

Anavrin wrote:IG is the best army ever, the sky is falling!

OMG, SW are so OP, nothing will ever beat them!

WTF?! Mephiston is uber-cheese, BA will never lose a match!

etc, etc... Every second dex or so produces this response, after a month or two people will have played some games and figured out how to deal with it.

Except for SW, they really are cheese. Screw SW in their furry butts.

That's probably because every other army is Imperial (if not just more space marines).

Damn, ninja'd.

they appear to be the biggest band wagon army because the people who played Daemonhunters was ridiculously small due to their all metal models, and now that they've refined down just to grey knights and given them things like the dreadknight everyone's jumping on.

Whether they're overpowered or not, everyone's going to play them.

Grey Knights? No
Coteaz with henchmen? Maybe

Imo they don't look OP. I think they'll be fairly strong, but will probly struggle against AV14. They have alot of cool new gear and powers but no added survivability either. I know I will be cursing as Guard plates the crap out of me regularly anyway.

Stavkat wrote:Is there anyway to top this thead? Is it the best thread ever?

Also love this quote, it got me I admit it. At first I thought it was someone agreeing that GK are OP and that a thread about that should be stickied. I was vastly amused and a bit ashamed of my jumping to conclusions when I realized how it was really meant. I blame being exposed to ridiculous amounts of whining about GK going to be broken. As a DH player I'm looking forward to the update, even if I despise some of the new fluff. But I sincerely doubt they'll be OP. Low Model Count + Little to know extra survivability will hold GK's back from being OP certainly

bucheonman wrote:The dreadknight doesn't work, he needs min. S8 to get a glance. No 2d6 on armor pen.

The DKs have 2 DCCWs and as such (SHOULD, GW screwed up) strike at S10.

meh, honestly tell I read the codex myself or tell its officially released I don't trust anybody on the actual facts for the GK armies. Call me paranoid becuase I know people have read it.

anyways, I kinda think there taking the Grey knight part of deamonhunters a bit overboard, I always thought of Grey Knights as a small elite death star unit supporting a Inquisitor and his minions. But now they seem to turned it into another SM army.

Black Fiend wrote:Are Grey Knights the best 40k army ever? I don't remember any army ever so heavily ballyhooed and bandwagoned before. It is crazy.

Ask again in two or three months...

I don't feel very sorry for them. They have enough toys and don't need more.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

bucheonman wrote:The dreadknight doesn't work, he needs min. S8 to get a glance. No 2d6 on armor pen.

The DKs have 2 DCCWs and as such (SHOULD, GW screwed up) strike at S10.

bucheonman wrote:I don't feel very sorry for them. They have enough toys and don't need more.

Thats what I say to my girlfriend.

Mannahnin wrote:Is this a thread about Space Wolves?

Or has a year passed?

*Laugh*, very good.

I'm sure a Coteaz Henchmen/Riflemen build will be pretty competitive...or another Razorspam. Is it me, or does anyone else find the competitive builds yawntastic. Razors..Chimeras....Dreads...bleh.

The only thing I object to about them is that they've taken my favourite army, the characterful Daemonhunters, and turned them into Codex: Shiny Marines.

So I've now retired my army to the display cabinet to gather dust and remember what once was.

I'm now pinning my hopes on Tau! Hah...

I didn't even read this thread. Just by going off the topic...

No.

I thought 3rd edition Rhino rushing Black Templars were the best army ever....

I'm worrried about how vanilla marines will fare against the new GK. Is there anything that the SM have that will make a difference against them? it seems to me that GK have similar units to SM but better. How will SM combat dreadknights for example?

Havent seen the full rules for GK's other than what ive picked up on here, but how does a vindi's turbo round stop a lith?
Wouldnt extra D6's be removed due to LM?

Other than that, about all they can really hit it with is glances from auto's, but even then, you cant glance a lith to death.

Dashofpepper wrote:I play a Wraith Wing Necron list; my warriors are minimal and only there because they have to be.

If the only answer to Monoliths are terminators and a vindicare assassin, I'm not worried. I don't see GK terminators making competitive builds, and my Deceiver babysits my Monoliths; I don't think they'd dare come close anyway. The vindicare is a bit more annoying. But that's what wraith assaults, deep-striking monoliths, and teleportation is for.

I'm looking forward to playing some GK armies.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Havent seen the full rules for GK's other than what ive picked up on here, but how does a vindi's turbo round stop a lith?
Wouldnt extra D6's be removed due to LM?

Other than that, about all they can really hit it with is glances from auto's, but even then, you cant glance a lith to death.

My 2 cents

Turbo penetrator is 4D6 armor pen.

Monolith LM specifically states nothing gets extra dice to penetrate.

Unless the Turbo penetrator specifically says that abilities like LM that deny extra dice to penetration are cancelled a vindicare is only going to be rolling 1D6+0 for penetration.

If the title of your thread in the tactics forum can be answered with a simple, 'No', it does not need to have been posted.

schadenfreude: Thats what i was thinking.
In which case, i will either ignore him or throw a unit of scarabs at him.


Dash: Why use a deciever to guard it?
Not questioning your play style, just dont usually see him on the table.
Also wondering why you would pick that c'tan over night.

I dont usually run any c'tan, simply for its points.

Grey Knights? Best army ever?...hardly.

Try Eldar in the 2nd edition of 40k. While the models may have looked bad, what the rules said you could do with them was quite impressive. Nothing since then even comes close to the power level of 2nd ed Eldar.

RAW, the Turbo-penetrator round gets 4D6, not +3 extra D6, so it'd get its full complement of dice against a Monolith.

I would also say you can take off the invun of the c'tan from the assassin

Honestly I think space wolves and BA had a much larger bandwagon jumping population and remain today still at the top, stronger than GKs in the tournament scene. IG similarly remains in the top tier, unconcerned about grey knight upstarts. GKs have light/medium armor that's good at killing light/medium armor, but so does IG. They can almost get 2 hydras for the price of one psyrifleman dread.

Also, GKs can hurt a monolith with hammer hand daemonhammers, which strike at strength 10.

The shield breaker only negates invulnerable saves due to wargear so the C'Tan is unaffected. Vindicare does not get to roll any additional dice to penetrate the lith.

I think another thing to contemplate is that it's cheaper to make a GK army than most armies, since it has a low model count. That will appeal to a lot of people with tight budgets or just want to have another army, and they want it fast.

My guess is that the more tactically thoughtful armies (like Dark Eldar) are going to beat the crap out of them in the hands of a good player. What is it with all of these dumb, predictable, slow SM armies these days?

starsdawn wrote:I think another thing to contemplate is that it's cheaper to make a GK army than most armies, since it has a low model count. That will appeal to a lot of people with tight budgets or just want to have another army, and they want it fast.

But GK marines are pretty damn expensive per marine. So if you go mostly power armored troops, it adds up quickly. Unlike say, Space Wolves, who have a low cost 10 man box.

Stavkat wrote:

starsdawn wrote:I think another thing to contemplate is that it's cheaper to make a GK army than most armies, since it has a low model count. That will appeal to a lot of people with tight budgets or just want to have another army, and they want it fast.

But GK marines are pretty damn expensive per marine. So if you go mostly power armored troops, it adds up quickly. Unlike say, Space Wolves, who have a low cost 10 man box.

Buy a Tac squad box, mix it with the Grey Knight box? You can have three different squads using the arms only. That is, if you don't mind mixing them up with Tacs.

crazypsyko666 wrote:My guess is that the more tactically thoughtful armies (like Dark Eldar) are going to beat the crap out of them in the hands of a good player. What is it with all of these dumb, predictable, slow SM armies these days?

Except the Grey Knight Codex seems to be shaping up to be the complete opposite of slow, dumb and predictable. It has tons of options, is by no means slow, and you can't just take two or three awesome units, point them at your enemy and eat their face. I'm looking at you Space Wolves...

Miraclefish wrote:RAW, the Turbo-penetrator round gets 4D6, not +3 extra D6, so it'd get its full complement of dice against a Monolith.

RAW living metal says nobody gets more than 1D6 on a penetration roll.

schadenfreude wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:RAW, the Turbo-penetrator round gets 4D6, not +3 extra D6, so it'd get its full complement of dice against a Monolith.

RAW living metal says nobody gets more than 1D6 on a penetration roll.

There are a few "cheats" such as Ordnance still getting to pick one of its two D6 rolls.

I'm going to venture a guess that when a GK FAQ comes out we will learn that vindicares are not the monolith killers that some are trying to make them out to be.

Anavrin wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Am I the only one who thinks Necrons are going to kick the crap out of GK? And anyone with a land raider or two?

Well, for most AV 14 the psycannon will have a 7.5% chance of penning per shot. Considering you get 2 shots on the move or 4 standing still, that's pretty good.

The vindicare should also have no problem crushing Monoliths and other Av 14 mech, although he's fragile and only has a 36" threat range.

Except it doesn't get that pen roll you're thinking of.

schadenfreude wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:I play a Wraith Wing Necron list; my warriors are minimal and only there because they have to be.

If the only answer to Monoliths are terminators and a vindicare assassin, I'm not worried. I don't see GK terminators making competitive builds, and my Deceiver babysits my Monoliths; I don't think they'd dare come close anyway. The vindicare is a bit more annoying. But that's what wraith assaults, deep-striking monoliths, and teleportation is for.

I'm looking forward to playing some GK armies.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Havent seen the full rules for GK's other than what ive picked up on here, but how does a vindi's turbo round stop a lith?
Wouldnt extra D6's be removed due to LM?

Other than that, about all they can really hit it with is glances from auto's, but even then, you cant glance a lith to death.

My 2 cents

Turbo penetrator is 4D6 armor pen.

Monolith LM specifically states nothing gets extra dice to penetrate.

Unless the Turbo penetrator specifically says that abilities like LM that deny extra dice to penetration are cancelled a vindicare is only going to be rolling 1D6+0 for penetration.

Well, you're forgetting the bit in the living metal that states weapons only ever get Str + 1d6 no matter what. It's the "no matter what" part that is most important.

Miraclefish wrote:RAW, the Turbo-penetrator round gets 4D6, not +3 extra D6, so it'd get its full complement of dice against a Monolith.

See above, you're incorrect.

WarOne wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:RAW, the Turbo-penetrator round gets 4D6, not +3 extra D6, so it'd get its full complement of dice against a Monolith.

RAW living metal says nobody gets more than 1D6 on a penetration roll.

There are a few "cheats" such as Ordnance still getting to pick one of its two D6 rolls.

Ordnance isn't a "cheat" as it is still technically str + 1d6. Also, it states in the LM rules that ordnance still works as such, so there's no arguing it.

*edit*
and even if they did get 4d6 as their strength on that shot, I wouldn't be worried because you still need a slightly better than average roll to pen the lith. The exact same you would need with railguns, DCCW's, and so on. So, not sweatin it personally.

Black Fiend wrote:I don't remember any army ever so heavily ballyhooed and bandwagoned before. It is crazy.

I don't know what what you're talking about. The Grey Knights are saviors to this game! And believe me, I've followed a few in my day! </sarcasm>

With the vast experience you obviously have on this site, you probably didn't see the mass upswelling of support for the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, or Dark Eldar codexes.

The games who thirst for the flavor of the month will make it known that their leaked codex, pried details, math-hammer, and fierce scrutiny to detail will never be beaten. Those who don't immediately flock to the banner wil xounter with their new anti-FOTM lists, complaining that the units are too over-powered on paper. Then when the dice finally hit the table, everyone comes to a screeching realization: it's just an update to a game.

starsdawn wrote:I think another thing to contemplate is that it's cheaper to make a GK army than most armies, since it has a low model count.

Dunno about all that.

I just calculated the cost of my Grey Knight army assuming I buy everything I need for my list in one fell swoop including the Codex.

$783.00 before taxes/shipping

$587.25 will be my total cost if (when) I go thru my model connection with no shipping and 25% off. Still pricey...all at once. I have to buy in large amounts though to get that sort of discount.

This is for a halfway decent competetive list....no doubt you could just buy Paladins and Draigo and have a cheap (but not that effective) army on the table in notime.

+1 to Deadshane1. I can't see how GKs will be an inexpensive army to buy since the builds are basically being lifted from other SM builds. Spamming dreads/razorbacks isn't exactly inexpensive the last time I checked. Even if you go for some type of all foot army the GK infantry are more expensive than other SM kits.

I can't wait to see some Gk dreadspam lists. I can't quite understand how they'll fare much better than SM MotF builds. They still have the same weaknesses, but slightly better shooting. I'd just dump a bucket of genestealers on the table and stomp those dreads down.

Deadshane1 wrote:

starsdawn wrote:I think another thing to contemplate is that it's cheaper to make a GK army than most armies, since it has a low model count.

Dunno about all that.

I just calculated the cost of my Grey Knight army assuming I buy everything I need for my list in one fell swoop including the Codex.

$783.00 before taxes/shipping

$587.25 will be my total cost if (when) I go thru my model connection with no shipping and 25% off. Still pricey...all at once. I have to buy in large amounts though to get that sort of discount.

This is for a halfway decent competetive list....no doubt you could just buy Paladins and Draigo and have a cheap (but not that effective) army on the table in notime.

Yeah GW wasn't gonna release an elite codex and make it cheap, that sounds fairly average price point judging from my experience.

OP: Wait about 6 months before asking that question cause A) it might get faqed like nids did B) and actually have played it enough times to draw your on conclusion.

Right now I see rifle dreads as the strength of the book, but i won't judge to till i've played both inquistion and pure grey knight builds

Kevin949 wrote:
and even if they did get 4d6 as their strength on that shot, I wouldn't be worried because you still need a slightly better than average roll to pen the lith. The exact same you would need with railguns, DCCW's, and so on. So, not sweatin it personally.

S3 for sniper+average roll of 14=17, what am I missing?

I calculate the cost of a "halfway decent competitive list" as far lower than that, Deadshane. What are you running?

MONKEYS! MONKEYS EVERYWHERE!

Afrikan Blonde wrote:The shield breaker only negates invulnerable saves due to wargear so the C'Tan is unaffected. Vindicare does not get to roll any additional dice to penetrate the lith.

Don't count on that. At one point the Necron FAQ, or was it the DH FAQ?, said the vindicare got 3d6 vs. Living Metal back when the turbo-penetrator was 3d6. It wasn't extra dice, it was just 3d6 (no strength).

1,500 list:

Inquistor Corteaz
7 Jokaero

8 Jokaero
8 Jokaero
8 Jokaero
8 Jokaero

£310.55

Anyone care to add onto that list for price?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

crazypsyko666 wrote:My guess is that the more tactically thoughtful armies (like Dark Eldar) are going to beat the crap out of them in the hands of a good player. What is it with all of these dumb, predictable, slow SM armies these days?

Except the Grey Knight Codex seems to be shaping up to be the complete opposite of slow, dumb and predictable. It has tons of options, is by no means slow, and you can't just take two or three awesome units, point them at your enemy and eat their face. I'm looking at you Space Wolves...

Maybe the PAGK army, but a terminator army isn't looking so good. I haven't seen the codex yet, but based on the late copy everyone's seen, there's a lack of SM transportation, a lack of FA, and a lack of quick-moving tanks. Then there's the issue of having so few squad choices, making them likely to be predictable. I'm not saying they're going to be ineffective, I'm just saying I can guess what most Grey Knight armies are going to look like, and they're likely going to have trouble against Dark Eldar unless you can make those shunts count.

I could see the dreads being an equalizer with DE, its just a lot of solid shooting and honestly in a tourney DE get screwed a bit because of lack of cover

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Grey Knights? Best army ever?...hardly.

Try Eldar in the 2nd edition of 40k. While the models may have looked bad, what the rules said you could do with them was quite impressive. Nothing since then even comes close to the power level of 2nd ed Eldar.

I'm gonna play the "old vet" card and confirm this man has the correct answer.

In the post-RT period, nothing has come close to 2nd ed. Eldar. At the first US GT, I think they were accounted for about 5 of the top 10, including Best Overall and Best General. And that was in a healthy soft score tourney. The next year, the overall winner took a completely different kind of Eldar army and won overall again. Put that codex in the hands of today's competitive players in today's battle point-focused tourneys, and you could be looking at 8 or 9 of the top 10 in most tourneys. It'd be Daemons of Chaos ++.

In fact, the 2nd ed. Eldar Guardian with shuriken catapult might be the single best basic trooper in the post-RT period. Cheap, with a *fantastic* weapon and able to be fielded in variable squad sizes (including small sizes that exploited 2nd ed. VP rules). The funny thing is that Guardians are only the starting point for how good that codex was.

2nd ed eldar you say?
You mean when phoenix lords were pretty nasty and actually had a profile each?
Rather than a fixed profile for all, with a change of weapons?

2nd Ed Eldar and 3.5 ed CSM FTW.

Doom, Guide, Mindwar, repeat.
Siren + Oblits + crazy daemonbomb.

Bah-ROken.

Space Wolves-----Assault Cannons----Overwatch
Eldar Allies---Pop up Grav tanks


Excuse me, I just threw up in my mouth....a lot.

I overheard a couple of SW players saying GK has a lot of the cheese. Kind of funny.

Speaking of Eldar in 2nd, how about Warp Spiders? Or Wraithcannons?

Who cares about 2nd? It's over now and there is no need to reminense here anymore.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Who cares about 2nd? It's over now and there is no need to reminense here anymore.

See the orginal question in the thread perhaps?

For people to say "No." and state their reasons why are completely relavent and on topic.

Okay I didn't see it that way. Thanks for that insight m8.

: )

= )

Are grey knights the best 40k army ever??? Really???

Every time a new codex comes out, people think it is really powerful and possibly the best. Then they get the army on the table against someone who actually knows what they are doing and find that the army is either really cruddy or is balanced.

They, from what I have heard, don't have a whole lot of anti-armor. They have a very small model count. 2+/2++ save? You know how many things have volume of fire and laugh at those...

Amazing psychic powers? Yes... because it is so uncommon for psychic defense to be in any competitive army. Librarians are so uncommon after all. Eldar don't exist, nor do tyranids.

High stats? Daemons have insane stats for very little. Does that change peoples opinion on them in most cases?

Terminator armies are scary until you actually play against one. The person playing them tends to never play them again. Yes, there are deathwing players, but the people playing that army and winning should be bowed down to, the army itself isn't all that much.

Hopefully this fetish ends soon. I give it 2 weeks max after April 2nd. Once people start getting it on the table, they will start finding its flaws and no one will care anymore. Dark eldar, Blood angels, tyranids... these where all fetishes. Now they are just part of the flow.

Dashofpepper wrote:Am I the only one who thinks Necrons are going to kick the crap out of GK? And anyone with a land raider or two?

Want new crons... so badly... so... badly...

My honest opinion after sitting down and thoroughly reading the codex is they have been overly hyped. Maybe someone will figure out a way to break the codex but I honestly don't see that happening. There are lots of really cool new units (e.g., Purifiers) we haven't seen before but overall I don't see this as a top tier army. There are lots of false rumors making the army out to be more than what they really are... Sure that is always the case with any new release but even more so with this codex for whatever reasons. For example Brother Champions are not independent characters and can't join other units... Same with Crowe. Are you going to spend the points to stick them in a landraider or Stormraven? That would be a lot of points I'll spent.

The army hasn't changed from being very generalship intensive. A GKSS can't kill everything in melee and a Purgation squad cant shoot everything to death.

I think of this army like T4 power armor wearing Eldar. Every piece in it has a place that if used incorrectly will render it very ineffective.

Regardless of how mediocre termispam will be, it's what I've always ran and always will run. PAGK can go eat a knife

snake wrote:They are certainly the most irritating. I don't think I've ever seen a bigger bandwagon. In anything.

To be fair if they had released when i had got back into 40k, I would've picked them up then instead of going with Chaos Space Marines, since I do really love the idea of them and their fluff.
The only problem for me was the metal miniatures and I hate working with metal ( I'm looking at you Obliterators that I recently bought)

Hell, even knowing what Matt Ward has written about them I still love them and are getting them, even though I'm nowhere near done on my chaos army
I've already ordered the Codex and a box of troops to mess aorund with.
Easy paint scheme, looks nice, has ( or used to have) a good background and fits into my personal favourite type of army which is elite and powerful, but small and costly
Can you really go wrong?

I figure I'll stick with the old fluff established in the Daemonhunters codex and Inquisitor rulebook. I don't want Ward touching my fluff.

Fafnir wrote:Regardless of how mediocre termispam will be, it's what I've always ran and always will run. PAGK can go eat a knife

You and I are not so unalike

Since I've been watching and playing against this new codex of late, IMHO I can say the following.

It is not about how strong the individual units are. It is how strong the combination of powers, abilities and the special tactics that are being deployed by those people who enjoy taking advantage of every nuance of the rules that the GK have at their disposal.

This is codex creep people. Remember who wrote the codex. Remember this is not about game play, this is about selling models and codexes. This codex will sell. People will buy a new GK army. People will make adjustments to their armies and buy more models as well to counter the GK lists, and Games workshop will make lots of money on it.
This is the company's, current business model. Get use to it.

To play against this army also means you might have to rethink your normal game play against them. Then it comes down to your skill level. If you are only a one trick pony mentality, then you are going to lose. You have to adapt to the situation and against your opponent.

Another thing is it scalability. They are average to strong in low points games compared to other armies. You bet that GK people would want to play 1750 list AND higher so they can get all of their toys and tactics into play. At 1500 points is the beginning of their step power curve. Under 1500 points, the games I have seen IMHO they do not scale down well.

An advantage that GK has at this moment besides all of the "combination" tactics is the "Aura of Invincibility" that it currently has by those people.

I can care less about those people who try to flaunt that aspect.

It is not about winning or losing. It is about having a fun game.

Added:

To play against a GK list you will have to be very mobile. IMHO you can not castle in a corner due to their deceptive speed. DE Mechadar, SW Drop pod (and other SM) armies, BA can stand up to a GT list. 1850 and higher are the GK's sweet spots, play a 1500 point game or under to gauge their effectiveness against your army.

Make Terrain as your friend. Understand that all is not about kill points, there are other scenarios to be played as well.

Just be on your game and you should do fine against all commoners.

Adam LongWalker wrote:
This is codex creep people. Remember who wrote the codex. Remember this is not about game play, this is about selling models and codexes. This codex will sell. People will buy a new GK army. People will make adjustments to their armies and buy more models as well to counter the GK lists, and Games workshop will make lots of money on it.
This is the company's, current business model. Get use to it.

...as opposed to company's past business model, which was apparently very different?

As a ork player GK are guna hurt us big time. No topic has given anything helpfull for orks to combat them.

I was afraid of Space Wolves, too. Then I realized that they die of 30 lasbolts to the face just like anyone else.

I am taking a liking to the SC GKM. he is quite the pimp. He is the Logan of the codex.

taylor048 wrote:As a ork player GK are guna hurt us big time. No topic has given anything helpfull for orks to combat them.

High volumes of attacks against very few guys is going to be an issue?

Orks are far better at anti-infantry than they are mech... that is just my opinion. And assuming that the new grey knights codex does mech spam... I don't see anything different fro them and regular marines except that there are less of them with some good special rules.

Grey knights are obviously the greatest army ever.

So great that my brotherhood banner bearer actually wields a keytar so that I may bury you under a hail of stormbolter rounds while melting your face with sweet sweet riffs.

But really, if you can deal with the purifiers orcs shouldnt have much issue.

Grundz wrote:Grey knights are obviously the greatest army ever.

So great that my brotherhood banner bearer actually wields a keytar so that I may bury you under a hail of stormbolter rounds while melting your face with sweet sweet riffs.

But really, if you can deal with the purifiers orcs shouldnt have much issue.

Seeing as how Purifiers should be making up the bulk of any Grey Knight army, "dealing" with purifiers is quite a big topic. "Well if you can kill off the best troops in the game and 75% of their army you should be fine".

My Loganwing is completely and utterly screwed against them.

wisdomseyes1 wrote:Every time a new codex comes out, people think it is really powerful and possibly the best. Then they get the army on the table against someone who actually knows what they are doing and find that the army is either really cruddy or is balanced.

....

Amazing psychic powers? Yes... because it is so uncommon for psychic defense to be in any competitive army. Librarians are so uncommon after all. Eldar don't exist, nor do tyranids.

High stats? Daemons have insane stats for very little. Does that change peoples opinion on them in most cases?

I haven't seen anyone saying 5th Tyranids and Dark Eldar are the uber-army to end all games. People were impressed by a few units in each (Tervigons and Zoanthropes; Incubi and Haemonculi), then or now. But as people here have brought up, Imperial codices tend to receive a little extra oomph and be more...easily competitive.

As for psychic powers, they can be countered...by SM and Eldar, and some Nids. Leaving Orks, CSM, Daemons, IG, Necrons and DE with very few options. I guess those are not 'competitive'. Maybe they should have their own tournaments.

Daemon Stats are far from insane. Most are about as tought as Chaplain Cassius, and that's for the big ones. But when you add the statline of an MC with psyker powers and powerful wargear...see how it can compound things?

Griever wrote:
Seeing as how Purifiers should be making up the bulk of any Grey Knight army, "dealing" with purifiers is quite a big topic. "Well if you can kill off the best troops in the game and 75% of their army you should be fine".

My Loganwing is completely and utterly screwed against them.

What? I cant hear you over the wickity wickity WOOOOO!!!!

Shouldnt loginwings long fangs be blowing at least 300pts of knights off the table every shooting phase? (scans cover)

Sephyr wrote:

wisdomseyes1 wrote:Every time a new codex comes out, people think it is really powerful and possibly the best. Then they get the army on the table against someone who actually knows what they are doing and find that the army is either really cruddy or is balanced.

....

Amazing psychic powers? Yes... because it is so uncommon for psychic defense to be in any competitive army. Librarians are so uncommon after all. Eldar don't exist, nor do tyranids.

High stats? Daemons have insane stats for very little. Does that change peoples opinion on them in most cases?

I haven't seen anyone saying 5th Tyranids and Dark Eldar are the uber-army to end all games. People were impressed by a few units in each (Tervigons and Zoanthropes; Incubi and Haemonculi), then or now. But as people here have brought up, Imperial codices tend to receive a little extra oomph and be more...easily competitive.

As for psychic powers, they can be countered...by SM and Eldar, and some Nids. Leaving Orks, CSM, Daemons, IG, Necrons and DE with very few options. I guess those are not 'competitive'. Maybe they should have their own tournaments.

Daemon Stats are far from insane. Most are about as tought as Chaplain Cassius, and that's for the big ones. But when you add the statline of an MC with psyker powers and powerful wargear...see how it can compound things?

Well, I believe his point was that when you look at the best elements of any given army in isolation, they tend to look overpowered. Whereas when you actually make a comprehensive wholistic assessment, many of the complaints and cries of "broken!" turn out to be unfounded. As happens most times a new codex arrives.

While only a few armies have psychic defense, when assessing the general competitive value of GK, the fact that they rely at least to some extent on psychic powers which are countered 40%-50% of the time by some of the most common armies (SM, SW, BA), and reduced in effectiveness by a couple of less-common (Eldar, Nids) is a factor in considering just how good GKs are overall. Also, while it's no DIRECT help to DE, Orks, Daemons or CSM, just the fact that GK have to deal with that impacts how many people bring them to tournaments, and indirectly helps those armies who lack defense themselves.

Mannahnin wrote:While only a few armies have psychic defense, when assessing the general competitive value of GK, the fact that they rely at least to some extent on psychic powers which are countered 40%-50% of the time by some of the most common armies (SM, SW, BA), and reduced in effectiveness by a couple of less-common (Eldar, Nids) is a factor in considering just how good GKs are overall. Also, while it's no DIRECT help to DE, Orks, Daemons or CSM, just the fact that GK have to deal with that impacts how many people bring them to tournaments, and indirectly helps those armies who lack defense themselves.

I see what you mean. However, it's not quite the case with GKs. They can't -not- bring psykers to the table, unless they run a full Inquisitor army. So the things that will be marginally effective against the top-tier armies (SW, BA, as you said) will be -very- effective against the others.

Also, having "Well, better armies will dissuade them from abusing build X, Y or Z agains tthe defenseless rabble" sounds like very dodgy design! It's a bit like going into a biker bar and start throwing your weight around on the basis that since so many people who go there are murderous bastards, people won't fight back.

(I was going to make a condom analogy that was much better, but less than appropriate)

Well, I don't know if I'd call the other armies defenseless rabble, and it may be dodgy design, but if it works, it works, right?

We don't see Eldar Bikeseer Council armies anymore because two things became extremely common- psychic defense from SM/SW/BA, and 2+ save assault terminators, which witchblades go through very slowly.

I wouldn't see that's the same thing as the GK situation, but it's related.

I look forward to a renewed sense of healthy competition.

Besides. The more armies that want to get into CC as fast as my orks, the better.

I have thoroughly read the codex and to be honest I see it as falling somewhere in the middle of the pack. It is very cool but too small to be top tier.

Sephyr wrote:
I haven't seen anyone saying 5th Tyranids and Dark Eldar are the uber-army to end all games. People were impressed by a few units in each (Tervigons and Zoanthropes; Incubi and Haemonculi), then or now. But as people here have brought up, Imperial codices tend to receive a little extra oomph and be more...easily competitive.

As for psychic powers, they can be countered...by SM and Eldar, and some Nids. Leaving Orks, CSM, Daemons, IG, Necrons and DE with very few options. I guess those are not 'competitive'. Maybe they should have their own tournaments.

Daemon Stats are far from insane. Most are about as tought as Chaplain Cassius, and that's for the big ones. But when you add the statline of an MC with psyker powers and powerful wargear...see how it can compound things?

IG are easily competitive because competitive right now means mech spam...

How many of the races in 40k are space marines? And IG with their mech spam, FAQ's tend to lean towards psychic powers work wile you are inside vehicles, but from the outside in there is nothing. Daemons kind of sort of have psychic defense, with blessing of the blood god. Past that, you are correct... those armies aren't considered competitive. Not saying they aren't good, they could probably deal with psykers.


===Rant===
Daemons: Yes. I can see how 30 points for WS5 S5 T5 I5 5 attacks rending off the charge, a 5++ save and 2 wounds isn't insane in any respect. :-/ Bloodcrushers are similar, but have an armor save and wound allocation tricks. Flamers point and kill any infantry they chose.

Bloodletters take on any space marine, and daemonettes are probably a little better with assault grenades. though both options are pretty bleh. Plaguebearers with T5 , FnP, and a 5++ invuln (though I prefer G2g in cover) means that they must be terrible scoring units. Other armies have such better choices. Horrors can't just pop transports or take out infantry with their weapon options.

Daemon Prince saddens me when i compare it to CSM... but it is still okay IMO. Not really the best :-/ People continue to take soulgrinders and wonder why they aren't winning...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree with black fiend... probably high middle. Not the best... That is just my opinion though.

Backfire Wrote:

...as opposed to company's past business model, which was apparently very different?

Yes, Before they become a public offering GW -was- consumer friendly. To me they were still consumer friendly up to 2002 when greed hit (via the Lords of the rings license) and we start losing that certain quality and friendliness (and I am not talking about the staff at store level) that is really needed in this hobby to stay afloat in the long run.

I really miss the quality of work (what I mean by this are the specialist games) black gobbo, The Academy (in the US) the outrider program, White Dwarf (when it was so good for reading) the quality of paints, and so on.

Today's reality is what you see on the GK codex. Written by a man who is really not qualified to be a game designer (IMHO). Then again the way the codex is written dictates what special character and special models by the higher ups. So I should cut him some slack, but not a lot, because DE and the SW, both written by Phil Kelly is enjoyable to read the fluff and well written.

And he is using the same game mechanics and criteria as Ward.

As I have said in my previous posting. The GK's can be beat. Is the GK's the best army? No. I'll give that aspect to the IG. But this codex can be manipulated to be rather obscene.

Now in praise with the GK's. I do like many of their models so in that case GW got that right.

Adam LongWalker wrote:
Today's reality is what you see on the GK codex. Written by a man who is really not qualified to be a game designer (IMHO). Then again the way the codex is written dictates what special character and special models by the higher ups. So I should cut him some slack, but not a lot, because DE and the SW, both written by Phil Kelly is enjoyable to read the fluff and well written.

Really, I fail to see what's so overpowered in the GK codex. (Maybe it's just me because I play Tau and their supposed strengths mean nothing to me.) Battle reports I've seen have hardly suggested that they will roflstomp over everybody else. It is, of course, a huge leap in power compared to old one, but it was one of the weakest books in the game, so that is only fair.

If GW was really so cynical as you suggest, I'm sure they would have made their shop window army - vanilla Space Marines - more powerful. By coincidence, that was written by Matt Ward too.

Just to clarify, I don't believe there is codex creep, conscious or otherwise. I believe there is sometimes a codex surge, sometimes a new army affects metagame so much that all subsesquent ones have to be written to match them up. As evidenced by the fact that arguably strongest armies are IG and Space Wolves, and all the subsesquent books have been weaker.

And was it really ever different? Did the goold old times not feature books which were overpowered and people running around in circles screaming "OMG ONOEZ" when new Codex broke out?

Different armies rise to the top each edition.

They have one major weakness, due to the low model count, they will suffer from bad rolls. They can win then win, then win again but then they will lose badly due to a few lucky rolls. I know SRF FRF from guard will hurt them alot, but its unlikely any guard army will get many shots of before they get in CC.

Potentially 16 S5 24" range shots and 4 or 8 S8 24" range shots is OP. I predict the biggest change is the meta of rhino-based armies. When a tac equivalent squad can put 3 to 5 S8 hits as well as probably two glances from S5 hits every turn, they will put a lot of problem on the rhino-based armies that other SM are so prevalent. The shooting is going to be pretty disgusting too as far as anti-personnel. Consider that at 24" a @180 tac squad puts out 4 to 6 wounds against a T4 opponent whereas the GK @250 is putting out 11 wounds. That is significant difference.

Agreed though the problem is going to be that a GK army is going to be outnumbered about 1.5 to 1 versus an equivalent marine so if you get "hot" rolling 1s and 2s, you are going to go down fast.

wisdomseyes1 wrote:How many of the races in 40k are space marines? And IG with their mech spam, FAQ's tend to lean towards psychic powers work wile you are inside vehicles, but from the outside in there is nothing. Daemons kind of sort of have psychic defense, with blessing of the blood god. Past that, you are correct... those armies aren't considered competitive. Not saying they aren't good, they could probably deal with psykers.


===Rant===
Daemons: Yes. I can see how 30 points for WS5 S5 T5 I5 5 attacks rending off the charge, a 5++ save and 2 wounds isn't insane in any respect. :-/ Bloodcrushers are similar, but have an armor save and wound allocation tricks. Flamers point and kill any infantry they chose.

Bloodletters take on any space marine, and daemonettes are probably a little better with assault grenades. though both options are pretty bleh. Plaguebearers with T5 , FnP, and a 5++ invuln (though I prefer G2g in cover) means that they must be terrible scoring units. Other armies have such better choices. Horrors can't just pop transports or take out infantry with their weapon options.

5++ saves are notoriously unreliable. I should know, having rolled them a lot on my CSM HQs and always seeing them eat a power fist.
However, even the good Daemon units that you describe are counterbalanced by the fact that they often arrive by Deepstrike and you never know when; and this deploy is borked against the new PAGKS and their warp quake.

Regarding the 'competitive' angle, any army can deal with anything. The problem is efficiency. Being able to do it with reliable success for a moderate cost. Buying army-wide Blessing of the Blood God is horrendously inneficient compared to, say, taking a Rune Priest.

I just get scared when I see issues tossed aside because "Well, that army isn't competitive anyway. The better ones will be able to deal with it this!" It means all many players can do is wait for the next codex, fingers crossed, and hope that they'll be the ones favored by imbalances this time around.

Then again, hopefully I'll keep my integrity and not be here in a couple of years going "The new CSM codex is really so average. The new 50-point each Obliterators that can be taken as either Heavy or Elite options are nothing major. Any Long Fang spam can deal with them!"

the problem with all these new cookie cutter codexes is because GW has moved from being a HOBBY company where the people who works there are actually involved with the game and their customers, to a company that has gone on the stocks, fired pretty much all of the original people and set a board down that doesn't asks what's cool, but instead what makes money....
shame though i liked the olden guys better.

I for one think this whole thing is going to turn out exactly like DE. Everyone at my store was like "OMG DE are going to ROFLSTOMP everyone. OMG Kabalite Trueborns with 4 DL's and Ravagers, and what's this this Voidraven Bomber is so broken its not even funny AAAAAAAAAAH!!!" Now everyone at my store cringes everytime someone walks in and wants to play DE because they are so uncompetitive even with their new codex. One of the guys at my store attended a huge GT (I forget which one it was in the PA/NJ/NY area) and he said that out of 5 games and something like 60+ people there were 4 DE players and they had a total of 2 wins between all 4 of them. Recently at the St. Valentines Day Massacre GT here in PA we had 3 DE players out of 60+ people and none of them scored even in the top 20!

I have a HUGE feeling that GK's will turn out just like DE. I know I know GW has a "thing" for Imperium armies but I think GK's are being way overhyped and rely far to much on Psychic Powers and yet to be FAQed rules like the Shunting Dreadknights. The only thing that might make GK's better (notice I said better not overpowered but better) is if GW does exactly what they did for Stormravens and that is FAQ it in their favor just to sell models. The Stormraven being able to PotMS after moving Flat Out was such an obvious sales decision it was almost comical. If they do the same to the Dreadknight then GK's might give some people, not all, but some people a lot of trouble.

I also want people to remember that most of 40K is not only about the units but about the people that play them. Above I said that the DE are not a competitive build but notice I gave examples of people playing them, I'm sure there are some people out there who can make them work VERY VERY well. Like Dashofpepper! A lot of people like to say Tau are a crappy army when in fact they are not "crappy" they are just more difficult to play than others, similar to Necrons. Will GK's be a difficult to play army? It's hard to say at this point until we get those (beautiful) models down and start rolling dice. Then we will see if they are very hard to play like Tau, Necrons, and DE. Or if they are very easy to play like Mech IG, SW, and BA's.

rana dandra wrote:

the problem with all these new cookie cutter codexes is because GW has moved from being a HOBBY company where the people who works there are actually involved with the game and their customers, to a company that has gone on the stocks, fired pretty much all of the original people and set a board down that doesn't asks what's cool, but instead what makes money....
shame though i liked the olden guys better.

I have to agree with this posting because I have stated similar issues. As I have posted earlier IMHO, GW was friendly to their customer base to around 2002, then I feel that the corporation just simply started changing to what it is now. As I have posted earlier the codex formula can be better written to be used by the masses than it is now. Phil Kelly can write. Mat Ward IMHO can not. If Mr. Kelly were to have written the GK Codex, I think it would have got a better "feeling" about the codex than it is now, because I believe he would have made it as balanced as possible with the dictates and requirements being given to him by GW. I hope Phil Kelly continues to write more codexes for GW in the near future.

I'm in the camp that does not like Mat Ward's writing style and creativity, but he is the type of writer GW wants. Since his beginnings with writing the DA codex, he's gone on to bigger and better (?) things and his creativity (?) shows with each successive book. He will make money for Games Workshop because people -will- buy the codex, just because on the spin people make on this web site and on other places (such as game stores). Like him or not and his writing style Ward is here to stay, because he makes money for them.


To BackFire.

Let us politely agree to disagree. You probably see things in your area of the world and I respect your postings.

I can only state what my area game play is at the moment and right now, my area it is highly competitive. I've seen the combination of styles being played in the GK army list. I've already stated on my other postings through out Dakka on what armies can beat the GK's from the weeks of game play with them and playing against them. Now without giving much away, I've have been playing a "Cortez" style of a list due to its flavor that it has from the older codex style. That list that I play is more for fluff than the tweaked out 6 dreadnought, or the vehicle teleportation list, and it is an decent army list to be competitive against another person instead of "the curb stomping your opponent in 3 or 4 turns" list.

You have to sometimes wonder on what is the mentality on some of those people who make those kinds of lists just to prove that they can beat just about anyone. Regardless if it is done with this codex or the BA or any other codex that is in game play, "The Win at all Cost Mentality" is not healthy for anyone as well as for this hobby. That is my personal opinion and I'll stand by that.

I'll stand by, without offending anyone, on what I have said on my postings from the perspective I have seen in my area as well as the years of experience in dealing with this "hobby". If I am wrong about or there are changes of game playing styles concerning the game play with the GK codex in my area, or what I have seen concerning this corporation, I'll make sure that I make the proper amends to what I have posted on this site.

And that is the best that I can do, because that is the right thing to do.

bang on bro

Sanguinis wrote:I for one think this whole thing is going to turn out exactly like DE.
(...)

I also want people to remember that most of 40K is not only about the units but about the people that play them.

I see no reason why it should. DE have -very- obvious and exploitable weaknesses. They were there to be seen from the first scandex. Grey Knights, on the other hand, have been the subject of lots of analysis and the worst that has come out is "they'll have a low-ish model count!". Which, as a CSM player who has to pay 250 points for 7 plague marines, I don't quite buy.

In addition, GKs seem to have good options to deal with everything. Anti-horde? Purifiers. Anti-elite infantry? Force Halberds. Anti-MCs and CC monsters? Force Halberds. Anti-artillery? Interceptors and shunting. Anti-anti-mech? Vehicles ignoring 30% of the damage table and good cover saves thanks to Shrouding. Long range Anti-mech? S8 rifle dreads hitting 3-4 shots each a turn. Model count too low? Take a scoopfull or two of melta-loaded veterans. Psyker being annoying? Hooded Librarian and army-wide psychic test penalty.

Many of those concerns, i hope, will be dispelled by actual gameplay. But not all, maybe not even most.

What is the Ork option for good long-range anti-mech?
What is the CSM option for avoid low model count or enemy psykers?
What is the DE anti-horde solution?

Are they as effective as the stuff GKs have in addition to all the other goodies?

Regarding the second point, that's a truism. Units that are good above a certain point insulate players from a good deal of mistakes. I've left my zerkers and plague marines exposed to fire and assaults more often than I should, but between armor and T4 and sometimes FNP I paid a relatively light price. Do that with a less forgiving army like DE or Eldar and you're toast.

Good player + Good Unit = Good results.
Poor Player + GREAT unit = Good results.
Great player + Good Unit = Amazing results.

Paladins dont like dark lances to the face. seriously dark eldar is just a bad matchup for them.

Stavkat wrote:Is there anyway to top this thead? Is it the best thread ever?

lol, yea!