Does 2 castings of hammer hand on the same unit stack so you can have strength 6? Say you have a Grey Knight Strike Squad with attached Grandmaster. The Justicar casts hammer hand. The Grandmaster also casts Hammer hand. Is your unit Strength 6 because they stack or only Strength 5 because you can only get the benefit of a power once? This is potentially very nasty to multi wound units toughness 4 if you give the grandmaster rad grenades the enemy multi wound unit would be toughness 3 and subject to insta death by your strength 6 or does it not work that way?
There's nothing stopping you using Hammerhand twice on a unit. Couple with Rad grenades, and indeed you can be S6 vs T3 on T4 enemies. There aren't many T4 enemies with 2 or more wounds though, Nobs are the only that spring to mind.
GCMandrake wrote:There's nothing stopping you using Hammerhand twice on a unit. Couple with Rad grenades, and indeed you can be S6 vs T3 on T4 enemies. There aren't many T4 enemies with 2 or more wounds though, Nobs are the only that spring to mind.
Tyranid warriors are probably the other prominent one. However, rad grenades specifically say they do not change the instant death threshold. So those nobs/warriors would be T3, but still only suffer instant death from things that are strength 8. You would ignore feel no pain with your non-power weapons though, so there's some benefit.
GCMandrake wrote:There's nothing stopping you using Hammerhand twice on a unit. Couple with Rad grenades, and indeed you can be S6 vs T3 on T4 enemies. There aren't many T4 enemies with 2 or more wounds though, Nobs are the only that spring to mind.
Tyranid warriors are probably the other prominent one. However, rad grenades specifically say they do not change the instant death threshold. So those nobs/warriors would be T3, but still only suffer instant death from things that are strength 8. You would ignore feel no pain with your non-power weapons though, so there's some benefit.
Please read the rule WAY more carefully next time. It explicitly states the exact opposite of what you just posted.
Wait, we are using it doesn't say it doesn't as logic now? Hammerhand nowhere says a unit can benefit from multiple sources of the same effect. It is binary- A unit affected by hammer hand has +1 str. Do it again? Still +1 str.
Rad grenades + HH should be enough with Force Weps most of the time anyway...
jmurph wrote:Wait, we are using it doesn't say it doesn't as logic now? Hammerhand nowhere says a unit can benefit from multiple sources of the same effect. It is binary- A unit affected by hammer hand has +1 str. Do it again? Still +1 str.
Rad grenades + HH should be enough with Force Weps most of the time anyway...
jmurph wrote:Hammerhand nowhere says a unit can benefit from multiple sources of the same effect. It is binary- A unit affected by hammer hand has +1 str. Do it again? Still +1 str.
I can't fathom how people make this assumption which isn't based on a rule at all.
jmurph wrote:Wait, we are using it doesn't say it doesn't as logic now? Hammerhand nowhere says a unit can benefit from multiple sources of the same effect. It is binary- A unit affected by hammer hand has +1 str. Do it again? Still +1 str.
Rad grenades + HH should be enough with Force Weps most of the time anyway...
No, not at all.
The unit chooses to cast HH and passes. They are now S5
The libby chooses to cast HH and passes, they are now S+1 == S5+1 == S6
They stack because they are not taken at the same time, and the strength modification applied applies to their profile.
If HH gives +1 and a second HH is cast, it already has +1, so no stacking. It does however kick in prior to doubling for Thunderhammers. So your S4 unit becomes S5 and then gets doubled. That is Instant Killing stuff.
Powers that stack are clearly labeled as such. Contrast HH with Might of Titan. So, HH + MoT gets you S6.
Also, Rad Grenades clearly state they lower ID threshold.
The book seems strong enough, quit hunting for Easter Eggs!
I really don't think that Draigo, a Librarian, Terminators, and Justicar Thawn are going to be allowed to go running around at S9/I10 (Hammerhand, Hammerhand, MoT, Hammerhand, Hammerhand, Quicksilver) against -1T enemies in the assault phase.
sourclams wrote:I really don't think that Draigo, a Librarian, Terminators, and Justicar Thawn are going to be allowed to go running around at S9/I10 (Hammerhand, Hammerhand, MoT, Hammerhand, Hammerhand, Quicksilver) against -1T enemies in the assault phase.
When I read this I got an image of 40k whack-a-mole with the 4 guys running around franticly with hammers.
GCMandrake wrote:There's nothing stopping you using Hammerhand twice on a unit. Couple with Rad grenades, and indeed you can be S6 vs T3 on T4 enemies. There aren't many T4 enemies with 2 or more wounds though, Nobs are the only that spring to mind.
Rad grenades however, do not stack.
Paladins are T4 two wounds. Most of the "lesser" MEQHQ choices (librarians, Chaplains, Rune Priests, Wolf Priests, WGBL etc.)
As an aside I believe the wording is a unit affected by HH gains +1 str. +1 to the base str of the unit so casting it a second time would only give a +1 to the base str again meaning it doesn't stack. Rules that can stack clearly state it usually. Yet another thing we will be waiting for GW to FAQ I feel...
Homer - the first HH modifies your profile. The second modifies your already modified profile. Easy.
Sorry, it DOES stack currently. The same bonus from different sources has been repeated FAQ'd to Stack, e.g. Lictor and Hive Commander (exact same +1 bonus to reserves, different sources)
nosferatu1001 wrote:Homer - the first HH modifies your profile. The second modifies your already modified profile. Easy.
Sorry, it DOES stack currently. The same bonus from different sources has been repeated FAQ'd to Stack, e.g. Lictor and Hive Commander (exact same +1 bonus to reserves, different sources)
That's not a very good comparison. Lictor + Lictor does not stack and Hive Commander + Hive Commander does not stack. Lictor + Hive Commander are 2 different abilities that have a similar effect, not the exact same ability. That seems to be a point of contention in a lot of places, and while I don't really know the wording on Hammer Hand all that well, comparing it to Lictor and Hive Commander working together is not a fair comparison.
It was pointing out the rule from different sources, at different steps. Reserves isnt great especially as they all occur simultaneously. Psychic powers are NOT cast simultaneously.
GK Dex, page 25 wrote:.....If the Psychic test is passed, all models in the unit (including Independent Characters) have +1 Strength until the end of the ASsault phase. Note that this strength bonus is applied before....
You pass 1 psychic test, your unit is at S4+1 = S5. Their profile now says S5
You cast it again, you now increase their strength by 1. Their strength is now S6, as it increases the strength on their statline (which has been modified) by 1
If you attempt to claim modifiers dont count, then a unit with I4(5) gaining furious charge still strikes at I5 with that logic, and ID would not need to change the rules to make it clear that modifiers to toughness dont count.
This is similar to the stealth issue. Long ago I postulated that since stealth gives the unit +1 cover saves, each model with stealth would add their bonus together. There is no real reason it doesn't, but no one plays it that it does. I expect hammerhand will be the same.
There is nothing saying it doesn't stack, but I somehow doubt anyone will allow it. I also expect it will be FAQ'd if it becomes an issue.
Given the points cost investment in a unit that is required to get doublehammer hand, that doesnt seem to be an issue that needs resolving away from alllowing it.
GK Dex, page 25 wrote:.....If the Psychic test is passed, all models in the unit (including Independent Characters) have +1 Strength until the end of the ASsault phase. Note that this strength bonus is applied before....
What's the last part say? Do you actually add the hammerhand bonus prior to doubling str as with a power fist or thunder hammer?
This is another rule that I am waiting for an FAQ on. Like imweasel says, hammerhand gives +1 str before further modifiers. Meaning you can get further modifiers. Is hammerhand one of those modifiers, though...
Now, if hammerhand wasnt on EVERYTHING maybe, but as it is if you take any independent character you get 2 hammerhands in a unit, meaning we do kinda need to know if it stacks.
Example: Grandmaster with troop terminators. You can cast 2 powers total, one from the grandmaster and one from the termies. You have hammerhand and force weapons as your only 2 assault powers. If the enemy does not have multiple wound models, like most models in the game, this leaves you with just 2 hammerhand powers as your only psychic powers, and hammerhand is written that 1 casting hits everything in the unit, ICs included. If it doesnt stack, then one power will be 'wasted' as it were each turn.
I'm not ignoring it. Review of the thread shows almost as many points against as for.
They boil down to these for me:
When things stack, it is stated. See HH with MoT and Hive Commander with Lictor.
When things do not stack, it is stated. See Lictor x 2 and Hive Commander x 2.
I am convinced HH x2 is more like the latter than the former.
That was why I asked if a quote existed for them stacking, clearly one does not.
You have asked me if a quote exists for them not stacking, clearly it does not.
An assumption has to be made regarding the absence of permission to stack.
Therefore, no permission for stacking is given.
I'm waiting for an FAQ. In the absence of one, I would dice it with an opponent.
Homer S wrote:
When things stack, it is stated. See HH with MoT and Hive Commander with Lictor.
When things do not stack, it is stated. See Lictor x 2 and Hive Commander x 2.
Autarch's Master Strategist's rule as applies to reserve rolls stacks with other Autarchs. It was not indicated in either direction in the codex, but was rule to do so in the FAQ.
Black Fiend wrote:Yes it is. When I am at home this evening I'll be able to quote the passage from the rulebook.
No, it really isnt. nothing on Page 50, which describes the entirety of Psykers and how they work, states that ALL Psychic tests occur simultaneously. Any psychic shooting attacks made by one unit would be simultaneous, but NOT because they are psychic tests - but because all shooting from one unit is simultaneous.
You are even contradicted by the GK codex itself, under the Nemesis force weapons entry. There it specifies that you take the "force weapon" psychic test at the first I step a wound is caused at, combat by combat. Under your erroneous idea you would resolve attack A, and at I6 cause a wound and activate the power - and would then simultaneously "trigger" every other force weapon in squads B, C and D onwards, DIRECTLY contradicting the GK codex.
You have just explained yourself why they occur simultaneously. If you can't see that there is no point in my trying to convince you. It is very clear and simple.
Not all units shoot at the same time. All shots in a unit happen at the same time. A psyckic shooting attacks are made with the rest of the unit. Powers are used in specific phases. There is nothing about not powers happening at the same time as other powers.
Keep in mind, simultaneous events in 40k are resolved sequentially. This is not new.
Example. A Tz Daemonprince wants to cast 2 shooting powers. He has 1 wound left. First is Doombolt, second is gift of chaos. He perils on Doombolt, killing him. He DOES NOT get to attempt gift, as all shooting counts as simultaneous. This is because you resolve these things sequentially. He is dead from the perils before using his second power.
With hammerhand, you use it after assault moves but before blows are struck. If you have 2 seperate hammerhands you are absolutely allowed to try and cast both. You resolve both sequentially.
That said, it is possible that hammerhand does not stack. It is also possible that it will stack. The +1 is applied before other modifiers. So Hammerhand one makes you s5. Hammerhand 2 is now cast. If they stack, hammerhand 2 will now be applied before other modifiers, making you s5. Hammerhand 1 will also be in effect, now making you s6. If GW says they stack. Or if GW says they dont stack.
Simultaneous events cannot occur sequentially. At least in this universe. Ask any quantum mechanic - they will tell you the same in a relativistic manner.
Black Fiend wrote:Simultaneous events cannot occur sequentially. At least in this universe. Ask any quantum mechanic - they will tell you the same in a relativistic manner.
Black Fiend, you did not see my example? You cant disagree with logic.
A tank with 1 weapon suffers 3 glances simultaneously. First one takes a weapon. Second one takes a weapon. Third one takes a weapon. Because simultaneous results are resolved sequentially in this game, the tank loses a weapon, gets immobilized, and is destroyed.
If you disagree with me, you are saying that 3 weapon destroyed results do not destroy the vehicle, they only destroy the same weapon 3 times. Is this your position? If it is, would you care to point to some evidence?
That is pointless in this particular example as others specific to this case. Generally speaking if a vehicle is destroyed then at the same point in time any lesser damage is completely inconsequential. It doesn't matter in your example since the final result of all three occur at the same time for all practical purposes. It changes nothing overall in terms of the final result. Basically you are arguing about simple semantics.
Black Fiend wrote:You have just explained yourself why they occur simultaneously. If you can't see that there is no point in my trying to convince you. It is very clear and simple.
Given I have shown the exact opposite, you need to explain your side as the rules of this forum require you to.
If you stand by your concept that ALL psychic powers occur simultaneously then you have huge problems playing this game, especially when you're told that Warp time occurs at a different point in time to Gift of Chaos, for two examples of how you are wrong.
The GK contradicts your notion rather forcefully with the Nemesis weapon rules, as my example showed. Do you truly believe that squad A triggering their force weapon rule at I6 also means Squads B, C and D, in different combats that *have not even been fought as yet* ALSO trigger their force weapons? Really? It would be news to a lot of players.
Devian has it right - even "simultaneous" events such as damage resolution can be resolved sequentially. HH gives you permission to make the attack "before any blows are struck" - it does not require you to perform the check "at the start of the assault phase", or anything else implying simultaneity.
IN summation: you need to support your argument, or retract it. PLease do so.
Black Fiend wrote:I should have been more clear. I apologize for the confusion. What I should have said is psychic tests for the same type powers occur simultaneously.
No, no they dont. Please find a rule to support that, for the 3rd time of asking.
Or, explain how my proof that it is the exact opposite way round is "wrong"
If Hammer Hand happens before all other modifiers and Hammer Hand is itself a modifier, how can they both happen before all other modifiers? One would have to happen after the other, and therefore would not be following the rules. The rule does not say it can happen at the same time as another modifier, it says it happens before all other modifiers. If you say they are both the same modifier, than they would not be modifying the stat line in time to modify it again.
That is one very good way to illustrate why you can't stack HH. Simply saying 'coz I said so' carries little weight in a legitimate discussion of the rules.
GCMandrake wrote:There's nothing stopping you using Hammerhand twice on a unit. Couple with Rad grenades, and indeed you can be S6 vs T3 on T4 enemies. There aren't many T4 enemies with 2 or more wounds though, Nobs are the only that spring to mind.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Homer - the first HH modifies your profile. The second modifies your already modified profile. Easy.
Sorry, it DOES stack currently. The same bonus from different sources has been repeated FAQ'd to Stack, e.g. Lictor and Hive Commander (exact same +1 bonus to reserves, different sources)
True, but they are also two completly different rules . Two HT with Hive Commanders (two differnet sources; same rule) don't stack.
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nosferatu1001 wrote:It was pointing out the rule from different sources, at different steps. Reserves isnt great especially as they all occur simultaneously. Psychic powers are NOT cast simultaneously.
GK Dex, page 25 wrote:.....If the Psychic test is passed, all models in the unit (including Independent Characters) have +1 Strength until the end of the ASsault phase. Note that this strength bonus is applied before....
You pass 1 psychic test, your unit is at S4+1 = S5. Their profile now says S5
You cast it again, you now increase their strength by 1. Their strength is now S6, as it increases the strength on their statline (which has been modified) by 1
If you attempt to claim modifiers dont count, then a unit with I4(5) gaining furious charge still strikes at I5 with that logic, and ID would not need to change the rules to make it clear that modifiers to toughness dont count.
Yes, but a fairer comparison would be to look at Tyrant Guard under the effects of "rage" which gain Furious Charge (+1 Str +1 Init). Could a Swarm Large with its special rule grant the unit Furious Charge again (+2 Str and +2 Init combined). Same rule, different source, differnet phase.
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DarknessEternal wrote:
Homer S wrote:
When things stack, it is stated. See HH with MoT and Hive Commander with Lictor.
When things do not stack, it is stated. See Lictor x 2 and Hive Commander x 2.
Autarch's Master Strategist's rule as applies to reserve rolls stacks with other Autarchs. It was not indicated in either direction in the codex, but was rule to do so in the FAQ.
Very true, GW tends to be sporadic...which is why I wonder.
kirsanth wrote:Would that not also read as follows?
base 5
Hammerhand#2 adjusts base 5 to base 6
Hammerhand#1 adjusts base 5 to base 6
Powerfist doubles to 10
Furious Change adds one to 10
Both adjust the base before any modifiers, in that case?
Huh, why should it do that? +1 S means increase strength by 1, how can that result in hammerhand#1 using the base again? It never says change the base strength in the rules that were quoted, it just says apply before other modifiers, overriding the way you handle modifiers in the BRB.
Furious Charge is a poor example as things just give you Furious Charge, then when you check you have Furious Charge (as you can only have USR's once, you have them or you don't) and get +1S +1 I.
Hammerhand doesn't do that, it doesn't place a rule on the unit it just give a flat bonus, then later in the phase you can give them another flat bonus just the same.
Base S4
Hammerhand #1 S5
Hammerhand #2 S6
and so on
Effects always stack, if I put a wound on a model, then in the same phase put another wound on a model I don't get to discount it because things don't stack.
@Nos, I'm normally in agreement with you, and I would really like Hammerhand to stack, but IIRC, you argued awhile back that multiple Frost Weapons do not stack together (to grant S6, for example).
Because the wordings of the rules regarding the type of modification (Hammerhand & Frost Weapon) are very similar, I'd like to know what your argument is for why these are treated differently.
Jidmah wrote:Easy:
Hammerhand #1 is rolled for and adds +1 strength before all other modifiers.
order:
base
Hammerhand#1
Powerfist
Furious Charge(dunno if any GK can actually get is, replace with any other suitable strength bonus)
Hammerhand #2 is rolled for and adds +1 strenth before all other modifiers.
order:
base
Hammerhand#2
Hammerhand#1
Powerfist
Furious Charge
First question? Is Hammerhand a modifier? Second, do two applications happen at the same time? It has been said a few times in this thread they in fact, do not happen at the same time. How can you have a modifier that is required to go before all other modifiers go after another modifier?
As a caveat, I wouldn't be surprised if it does work that way, I am just arguing semantics. GW should just post new rules for some fan review before putting them in a codex. If there is a hole in the rule, it seems like the folks on this forum would gladly give free synopsis.
Daichallar, while I would like to say that hammerhand is a modifier, based on GW's ruling of thunderwolves, where their STR bonus is not a modifier it is a change to the base, this could be another example of GW using +1 as a change instead of a modifier. Despite using the modifier language.
To me, currently it is a modifier, just a unique kind of modifier. It doesnt make you S5, it gives you +1 str, which can be applied with other modifiers per the blurb. Does this mean other hammerhand modifiers? Not sure. However, since every character and every unit has hammerhand, if your character is in any grey knight unit you will have 2 hammerhands. So they really do need to clarify if you can use both or not.
(You can actually have 5 hammerhands in the same unit, as crazy as that is!)
Black Fiend, it says Hammerhand goes before other modifiers, so its possible that the 'other modifiers' means other than the Hammerhand modifier. Being s10 with a hammer and being a modifier are in no way exclusive.
I can't find a definition for "modifier" in the BRB, so i guess increasing something by one is modifying it. My example was based on the asumtion that you cast psychic powers one after another, the same way IG issues orders for example. It seems to be common practice for eldar player to recast a failed fortune on eldrad.
A modifier does not force you to recalculate strength all the time and go back to already applied modifiers.
You pick the first Hammerhand and apply it before all other modifiers. Then you pick the second Hammerhand and apply it before all other modifiers, including the first Hammerhand. As Hammerhand#1 is already applied you don't need to go back to it und check if its still applied before all other modifiers. It matters even less as addition is commutative and can be applied in any order as you wish.
If you do try to go back to any applied modifier, you'll create an infinite loop and the game will not continue.
As for 5 Hammerhands in one unit... well, simply shoot it?
Furious Charge is a bad example, because the effect is that if a unit has furious charge then when they charge they have +1 str and int. Hammerhand adds one to str for the assault phase. If you add one twice you are essentially adding 2.
Black Fiend wrote:That is one very good way to illustrate why you can't stack HH. Simply saying 'coz I said so' carries little weight in a legitimate discussion of the rules.
Still waiting on your rules quote that "all psychic powers are resolved simultaneously"
Currently you are breaking the tenets of this forum, and have so far simply just said "coz I said so", despite being asked 3 times to support your argument.
Please do so, yes?
Xca|iber wrote:@Nos, I'm normally in agreement with you, and I would really like Hammerhand to stack, but IIRC, you argued awhile back that multiple Frost Weapons do not stack together (to grant S6, for example).
Because the wordings of the rules regarding the type of modification (Hammerhand & Frost Weapon) are very similar, I'd like to know what your argument is for why these are treated differently.
Mainly because you cannot use 2 frostblades. You can only ever use one CCW weapon at a time (another simply gives you a bonus attack, at best) - see page 42. So frostblades cannot stack because you cannot get the bonus from more than one CCW....
Jidmah wrote:I can't find a definition for "modifier" in the BRB, so i guess increasing something by one is modifying it. My example was based on the asumtion that you cast psychic powers one after another, the same way IG issues orders for example. It seems to be common practice for eldar player to recast a failed fortune on eldrad.
A modifier does not force you to recalculate strength all the time and go back to already applied modifiers.
You pick the first Hammerhand and apply it before all other modifiers. Then you pick the second Hammerhand and apply it before all other modifiers, including the first Hammerhand. As Hammerhand#1 is already applied you don't need to go back to it und check if its still applied before all other modifiers. It matters even less as addition is commutative and can be applied in any order as you wish.
If you do try to go back to any applied modifier, you'll create an infinite loop and the game will not continue.
As for 5 Hammerhands in one unit... well, simply shoot it?
This sounds like a perfectly acceptable way to deal with this rule, except for the fact that it is not actually following any rules telling you to do it this way. The order of operations in this instance doesn't matter because math doesn't have rules for when you add things to an equation. This is a logic problem, not a math problem. Really, GW needs to spell it out after each spell like this, stackable or not.
There is no rule at all telling you how to apply modifiers of the same type (multiplicative or additive). Of course does math have rules for adding things to an an equation, it's called algebra, and logic is nothing but algebra with a different notation.
Still none of this has anything to do with stacking, even if you'd roll off to see which hammerhand is applied first(RAW solution), the result would be the same.
Mark of Nurgle and bikes, Furious Charge and Big Choppas, autarch reserve rolls, damage results for melta shooting at open topped vehicles, attack squig and slugga/choppa... there are tons of examples of stuff stacking without an extra rule for doing so, I guess it's save to assume that modifiers stack unless stated otherwise.
Jidmah wrote:There is no rule at all telling you how to apply modifiers of the same type (multiplicative or additive). Of course does math have rules for adding things to an an equation, it's called algebra, and logic is nothing but algebra with a different notation.
Still none of this has anything to do with stacking, even if you'd roll off to see which hammerhand is applied first(RAW solution), the result would be the same.
Mark of Nurgle and bikes, Furious Charge and Big Choppas, autarch reserve rolls, damage results for melta shooting at open topped vehicles, attack squig and slugga/choppa... there are tons of examples of stuff stacking without an extra rule for doing so, I guess it's save to assume that modifiers stack unless stated otherwise.
Unfortunately none of those things say they must be added before all other modifiers. Raw states that hammerhand must happen before all other modifiers, as far as I know that is unique, and this is why there is no rule for it.
Regardless, I think everyone can agree that GW needs to FAQ this, there really isn't any definitive answer.
I agree that Hammerhand should not work twice. It seems that the only way to apply one Hamerhand as a modifier before another would be to count "other modifiers" as other non-Hammerhand modifiers; this is closest to a RAI style of interpretation rather than a RAW style of interpretation.
Bear in mind though, that if Hammerhand is not counted as a modifier as DevianID suggested with reference to the Space Wolves FAQ (which I am not familiar with so I cannot be an accurate judge of its application to this issue) then it should work; but the use of the words "other modifiers" really seems to imply that Hammerhand is itself a modifier. "Other" references things in relation to annother thing, unlike words like "that" which can be used without allusion to anything else. For the Hammerhand rule to use the word "other" in relation to modifiers, it needs to be referencing something that is already a modifier; there is nothing else in the rule that I am aware of to fulfill this requirement, so it has to be referencing Hammerhand itself as a modifier --thus excluding it from the immunity that it could have garnered from a non-modifier status.
This is the best RAW reading I can make at this time.
. Two 