So what happens with Stormraven and dread+unit inside if Stormraven fail his LD test from Crucible?
It itself are removed from the game, but what about package? Normally you disembark\fall from it when vehicle destroyed, but in current case it was not destroyed but was sent to nowhere..

The same as would happen in almost every other case that the vehicle was removed??? The embarked models are destroyed. Same as if you can't get a transport fully onto the board, or if it suffers a deepstrike mishap.

Of course, I dont have a BRB in front of me at the moment, so I could be wrong, but that is the way I can think of that it would be played.

if this so, then sweet

How can a Stormrave fail aLD test from CoM? It's not Psyker, if it is could you please provide the quote showing that it is so?

GK Stormraven have Psychic Pilot rule. Psychic Pilot = Psyker.

Really, where's the rule that states 'Pyskic Pilot: Vehicle with this rule count as Psykers... use LD...' etc.

Please, quote the Psykic Pilot rule and show how vehicles with this rule count as Psykers.

Psychic pilot:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If vehicle suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.

Same situation as with BA Dreads.. BA Dreads fall victim of CoM after BA faq. i don't see any difference between BA Lib Dreads and any GK vehicles (who all have Psy.Pilot rule)

ChrisCP wrote:How can a Stormrave fail aLD test from CoM? It's not Psyker, if it is could you please provide the quote showing that it is so?

Sure can. If you get a chance, look at the new GK codex in your FLGS. Under the Psychic Pilot rule, it states that a vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Pshichic Mastery Level 1), and is Ld10 for Psychic Tests and Psychic Hoods.

Edit, wow managed to misread "psychic tests".

If one could show that the 'Leadership Test' as stated by CoM is a "Psychic test" then yes they fall pray to the BA dread set, which still needs another update to the FAQ to settle if wargear forcing tests on psykers or 'counts as/treated' is a psychic purpose/test. Which If feel really are sepearate issues what's a 'psykic purpose' is it a test for being a psyker? (I personally feel yes) and does any LD test count as a 'Psykic Test' as they are 'a normal Leadership test.' Pg 50 brb.

penek wrote:Psychic pilot:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If vehicle suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.

Same situation as with BA Dreads.. BA Dreads fall victim of CoM after BA faq. i don't see any difference between BA Lib Dreads and any GK vehicles (who all have Psy.Pilot rule)

No comment on the actual question as I'm not familiar with the BA FAQ but it sounds like that would give a precedence for it working. I'm curious about the wording of CoM though. It is "a leadership test" right? So "a leadership test" vs "...being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests ..." would imply that any LD test a psyker makes is a psychic test, which should open up the risk of perils on all of them too

then you need read BA FAQ
Q: A Furioso Librarian counts as being Leadership 10 for
all psychic purposes. What exactly does this mean? (p29)
A: It means that for Psychic tests, for using a psychic hood
and for being affected by psychic powers, special rules or
wargear that affect psykers and require a Leadership
value, they are counted as being Leadership 10.

its perfectly clear that all GK vehicles fall in same category.

TheFuzziestBear wrote:No comment on the actual question as I'm not familiar with the BA FAQ but it sounds like that would give a precedence for it working. I'm curious about the wording of CoM though. It is "a leadership test" right? So "a leadership test" vs "...being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests ..." would imply that any LD test a psyker makes is a psychic test, which should open up the risk of perils on all of them too

Not all LD test for Psykers are Psychic Tests. They still take normal Ld tests for everythign that requires them, i.E. 25% losses in a squad, morale, pinning, so on and so forth.

Unless it specifically states it is a Psychic Test, then it is just a normal Ld test that targets psykers (in the case of CoM).

No it isn't. Psykic Purposes is far more broard than 'Psychic Tests', see how the FAQ mentions both? CoM asks for Psykers to take a LD test.

P. Pilots say 'is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods' or "is treated as being XXXYY the purposes of YYYXX".

The LD Test asked for by CoM is not a Psychic Test nor is it a Hood.

Galador wrote:

TheFuzziestBear wrote:No comment on the actual question as I'm not familiar with the BA FAQ but it sounds like that would give a precedence for it working. I'm curious about the wording of CoM though. It is "a leadership test" right? So "a leadership test" vs "...being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests ..." would imply that any LD test a psyker makes is a psychic test, which should open up the risk of perils on all of them too

Not all LD test for Psykers are Psychic Tests. They still take normal Ld tests for everythign that requires them, i.E. 25% losses in a squad, morale, pinning, so on and so forth.

Unless it specifically states it is a Psychic Test, then it is just a normal Ld test that targets psykers (in the case of CoM).

You seemd to have missed the fact that I was aware of that, just calling out that ithe wording could have set a precedence to misunderstand that. Luckily the FAQ IS worded well so there's no worry. It was just an amusing possibility that jumped out at me.

TheFuzziestBear wrote:
You seemd to have missed the fact that I was aware of that, just calling out that ithe wording could have set a precedence to misunderstand that. Luckily the FAQ IS worded well so there's no worry. It was just an amusing possibility that jumped out at me.

At least you aren't playing the "well they dont have leadership but are affected so they automatically die" card

TheFuzziestBear wrote:
You seemd to have missed the fact that I was aware of that, just calling out that ithe wording could have set a precedence to misunderstand that. Luckily the FAQ IS worded well so there's no worry. It was just an amusing possibility that jumped out at me.

Sorry about that. Must have misunderstood you slightly.

Galador wrote:

TheFuzziestBear wrote:
You seemd to have missed the fact that I was aware of that, just calling out that ithe wording could have set a precedence to misunderstand that. Luckily the FAQ IS worded well so there's no worry. It was just an amusing possibility that jumped out at me.

Sorry about that. Must have misunderstood you slightly.

T'sall good, these things happen. Especially with the topic being so intricate.

then you need read BA FAQ
Q: A Furioso Librarian counts as being Leadership 10 for
all psychic purposes. What exactly does this mean? (p29)
A: It means that for Psychic tests, for using a psychic hood
and for being affected by psychic powers, special rules or
wargear that affect psykers and require a Leadership
value, they are counted as being Leadership 10.

its perfectly clear that all GK vehicles fall in same category.

Except the 2 rules are worded differently and that is a BA codex at the moment all GK vehicles (except Chimeras) are instantly removed with a CoM. They have no ability to pass a leadership test thus they are removed (as they are not removed for failing but removed for not passing). They only have leadership for psychic tests and psychic hoods.

FlingitNow wrote:

then you need read BA FAQ
Q: A Furioso Librarian counts as being Leadership 10 for
all psychic purposes. What exactly does this mean? (p29)
A: It means that for Psychic tests, for using a psychic hood
and for being affected by psychic powers, special rules or
wargear that affect psykers and require a Leadership
value, they are counted as being Leadership 10.

its perfectly clear that all GK vehicles fall in same category.

Except the 2 rules are worded differently and that is a BA codex at the moment all GK vehicles (except Chimeras) are instantly removed with a CoM. They have no ability to pass a leadership test thus they are removed (as they are not removed for failing but removed for not passing). They only have leadership for psychic tests and psychic hoods.

Gk vehicles are not psykers.

they are Ld10 psykers for the purposes of Psychic tests and hoods only.


Psychic pilot doesn't say that they are a psyker. it says they are a psyker for Psychic tests and Psychic hoods only.



Psychic tests are not Ld tests anymore then Panic, pinning, or break tests are Ld tests.


Fearless models are immune to panic and break tests. they are not immune to Pinning or Ld tests.


the only thing these tests have in common is that they use the Ld characteristic when determining if they pass. this doesn't make them a Ld test.

Gk vehicles are not psykers.

they are Ld10 psykers for the purposes of Psychic tests and hoods only.

Well that depends on how you interprete the sentence it could easily mean they are psykers (with a mastery level of 1) and that for psychic tests and hoods they count as leadership 10.

I'd never even considered your interpretation until you pointed it out as the English naturally reads my way. But looking at it new I can see the merit in your interpretation and in that case they would not be effected at all.

I'm 99% sure when they FaQ it they will say they are psykers but are considered Ld10 for all purposes as they have with the BA Librarians.

At the moment by RaW you could argue that they are either instantly removed or totally uneffected.

Stormravens, or any other vehicle, can not be affected by CoM.

The vehicle is not a Psyker. It doesn't have a LD in its profile, it is just a vehicle. It 'counts as' LD 10 for the purposes of casting its psychic powers, and for being blocked by a psychic hood.

Beyond that, it is just a vehicle, and it does not have a LD value. Crucible will not work on it.

The vehicle is not a Psyker.

Except the rules say it is treated as one.

FlingitNow wrote:

The vehicle is not a Psyker.

Except the rules say it is treated as one FOR THE PURPOSES OF PSYCHIC TESTS AND PSYCHIC HOODS.

fixed that for you.

But thats not what it says. It says LD 10 for purposes of hoods and psychic tests, but it is treated as a psyker.

The psyker part is still the same sentence.


"it is treated as a psyker and is Ld10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and hoods"


you are adding a comma between Psyker and And where there isn't any.

like this "it is treated as a psyker, and is Ld10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and hoods"

You're inserting a comma after Ld10 where there isn't one like this:

"it is treated as a psyker and is Ld10, for the purposes of Psychic tests and hoods"

FlingitNow wrote:But thats not what it says. It says LD 10 for purposes of hoods and psychic tests, but it is treated as a psyker.

Read it again.

'A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. '

It is treated as being a psyker and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

Only for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods does it act as a Psyker and LD10.

Vehicles are not affected.

P.S. I did not insert a comma.

That was in reverence to Grey Templar saying I had inserted one.

I know what the sentence says and I'm just illustrating there are 2 ways to read it that the "for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods" part refers only to the Ld10 part or that it refers to both parts.

You can choose to use either houserule in your games we all know how it will be FaQ'd though and I doubt any sensible person would suggest playing it that all the vehicles are auto-removed.

I didn't insert a comma anywhere.

the full sentence is "it is treated as a psyker and is Ld10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and hoods"

no commas anywhere.

If that's a verbatim quote, it's quite easy to assume the following (in logical order):
1) A vehicle with this rule is treated as a psyker.
2) It has a leadership value of 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and hoods.

Primarily I interpret it this way due to the use of the conjuntion "and" after "psyker". This means that there is one condition and the second condition is added to the first. If the writer had wanted to be absolutely clear, a better way to write the rule would have been something like this:
"A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) with a Leadership of 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. At no other time or in any other situation is a vehicle with this special rule to be considered a psyker. "

1 is not necessarily mutually exclusive or inclusive of 2.

In all fairness, when read that way, a person could understandably assume that a vehicle with the rule would have a leadership of zero normally and only has a leadership value at all in two, specific, circumstances.

Personally, I could see it either way and GW rules-writing being of such great quality (/sarcasm) this is on the same level as the Tyranid creature (Mawlok?) when the Tyranid book first came out.

Even if the Gk vehicle is a psyker at all times, it still doesn't have to take a test from the crucible.


this is because it has no Ld value.


having no Ld characteristic is ALOT different from having Ld0

Grey Templar wrote:Even if the Gk vehicle is a psyker at all times, it still doesn't have to take a test from the crucible.


this is because it has no Ld value.


having no Ld characteristic is ALOT different from having Ld0

Good point. I've been playing a fantasy for the most part lately so please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a non-value an auto-fail/hit/wound etc?

Grey Templar wrote:Even if the Gk vehicle is a psyker at all times, it still doesn't have to take a test from the crucible.


this is because it has no Ld value.


having no Ld characteristic is ALOT different from having Ld0

your alikes said same thing about Furioso Lib. and where they now?

the Furioso's says it's for all psychic purposes that it's Ld10.


the Gk wording is different, enough for it to not work.


@Agnosto. in fantesy, yes. in 40k, the rules are that if you don't have a Characteristic to test against the test doesn't get taken.

Grey Templar wrote:
@Agnosto. in fantesy, yes. in 40k, the rules are that if you don't have a Characteristic to test against the test doesn't get taken.

Your interpretation makes perfect sense then; thanks for clarifying for me.

I think we're all missing a big technicality about this question. It seems that everyone is of the agreement that it is a psyker, but doesn't take a leadership test for crucible of malediction. The catch to this is that the crucible of malediction doesn't care if you don't have a leadership value if you are a psyker. If you do not pass the test the model is removed from the table, and if you did not take the test you did not pass it so you are still removed from the table.

So the original question is still valid, but for a slightly different reason than he asked.

Grey Templar wrote:Agnosto. in fantesy, yes. in 40k, the rules are that if you don't have a Characteristic to test against the test doesn't get taken.

Where did you find that in Rulebook or FAQ? BRB page about tests says only that if you have 0 stat you auto-fail. it have nothing about not having stat at all.

Lone Dragoon wrote:I think we're all missing a big technicality about this question. It seems that everyone is of the agreement that it is a psyker, but doesn't take a leadership test for crucible of malediction. The catch to this is that the crucible of malediction doesn't care if you don't have a leadership value if you are a psyker. If you do not pass the test the model is removed from the table, and if you did not take the test you did not pass it so you are still removed from the table.

So the original question is still valid, but for a slightly different reason than he asked.

I was about to bring up this exact same point.

The CoM does not work the way some people think. It does not require a Psyker to take a test and then suffer a penalty if the test is failed. If this were the case, then a Psyker who could not take the test could never fail it, and thus could never suffer the penalty.

The CoM works in the exact opposite manner. It requires a Psyker to pass a test or face a penalty. If that test, for whatever reason, cannot be taken, then the test is not passed, and there is no way to avoid the penalty.

I know comparisons are always suspect, but imagine it like the final exam for one of your college courses that makes up 100% of your grade. If you do not take the test, you have obviously not passed the test, regardless of how legitimate your reasons for not having taken the test. Consequently, you must suffer the penalty for not passing the test (in this example, probably getting an "Incomplete" for the course) rather than enjoy the benefit of passing it.

Gk vehicle are not Psyker so it has no effect. As for "but it effect the BA Furioso Dread, see the FAQ", well duh there entry says, wait for it....... PSYKER.

Noir, I think you missed the whole discussion. In the upcoming GK codex, all vehicles in a grey knight army (except for chimeras) have the following rule;

Psychic pilot:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If vehicle suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.


If something is treated as being a psyker, it is a psyker. Crucible of Malediction makes psykers pass a leadership or be removed from play, and as the vehicle is treated as being a psyker they are subject to the same rules as psykers.

Noir wrote:Gk vehicle are not Psyker so it has no effect. As for "but it effect the BA Furioso Dread, see the FAQ", well duh there entry says, wait for it....... PSYKER.

I guess my confusion started when I thought, "Why would a vehicle have psyker powers?" then I just figured it was because the crew are psykers. It's a bit ridiculous to think that a machine can do anything with the warp other than augment or help to direct the energies that a psyker puts into it.

It's not like rules need to make sense; I just try to reason things out so that I can better imagine my little toys actually waging war.

Lone Dragoon wrote:Noir, I think you missed the whole discussion. In the upcoming GK codex, all vehicles in a grey knight army have the following rule;

Psychic pilot:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If vehicle suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.


If something is treated as being a psyker, it is a psyker. Crucible of Malediction makes psykers pass a leadership or be removed from play, and as the vehicle is treated as being a psyker they are subject to the same rules as psykers.

No, I read the thread. As for if treated as Psyker you become a Psyker SHOW ME THE RULE. Until then treated as dose not make you something. Psykers have the word "Psyker" in in there Special Rules.

Noir wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:Noir, I think you missed the whole discussion. In the upcoming GK codex, all vehicles in a grey knight army have the following rule;

Psychic pilot:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If vehicle suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.


If something is treated as being a psyker, it is a psyker. Crucible of Malediction makes psykers pass a leadership or be removed from play, and as the vehicle is treated as being a psyker they are subject to the same rules as psykers.

No, I read the thread. As for if treated as Psyker you become a Psyker SHOW ME THE RULE. Until then treated as dose not make you something. Psykers have the word "Psyker" in in there Special Rules.

Well, if that's the case, Noir, then the vehicles can't use Pyskic powers, because nothing in that rule (other than saying they count as a Psyker) specifically says they can actually use powers.

It's simple. The vehicles either count as being a Psyker, or they don't.

I love all those people who want to have their cake and eat it, too. They want all the benefits and none of the negatives.

Lone Dragoon wrote:Noir, I think you missed the whole discussion. In the upcoming GK codex, all vehicles in a grey knight army (except for chimeras) have the following rule;

Psychic pilot:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If vehicle suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.


If something is treated as being a psyker, it is a psyker. Crucible of Malediction makes psykers pass a leadership or be removed from play, and as the vehicle is treated as being a psyker they are subject to the same rules as psykers.

I've bolded the important section for you, as previous posters have as well.

They are only treated as psykers and ld 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods. That's it. Otherwise, they aren't psykers.

Crucible states you have to pass a leadership test, this is not a psychic test, psychic tests are specifically designated in the main rulebook.

The furioso libby keeps getting used as an example, but it is worded totally differently.

A furioso librarian is a psyker,...and is treated as ld10 for all psychic purposes.

Big difference.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Saldiven wrote:

Noir wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:Noir, I think you missed the whole discussion. In the upcoming GK codex, all vehicles in a grey knight army have the following rule;

Psychic pilot:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If vehicle suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.


If something is treated as being a psyker, it is a psyker. Crucible of Malediction makes psykers pass a leadership or be removed from play, and as the vehicle is treated as being a psyker they are subject to the same rules as psykers.

No, I read the thread. As for if treated as Psyker you become a Psyker SHOW ME THE RULE. Until then treated as dose not make you something. Psykers have the word "Psyker" in in there Special Rules.

Well, if that's the case, Noir, then the vehicles can't use Pyskic powers, because nothing in that rule (other than saying they count as a Psyker) specifically says they can actually use powers.

It's simple. The vehicles either count as being a Psyker, or they don't.

I love all those people who want to have their cake and eat it, too. They want all the benefits and none of the negatives.

Except they can use their psychic power, fortitude, because their rule specifically states that they are a psyker, and ld 10, for the purpose of PSYCHIC TESTS, which is what you take to use a psychic power (ie, the aforementioned fortitude).

It's not wanting to have your cake and eat it too, it's just the way the rules are actually written.

Saldiven wrote:

Noir wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:Noir, I think you missed the whole discussion. In the upcoming GK codex, all vehicles in a grey knight army have the following rule;

Psychic pilot:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If vehicle suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.


If something is treated as being a psyker, it is a psyker. Crucible of Malediction makes psykers pass a leadership or be removed from play, and as the vehicle is treated as being a psyker they are subject to the same rules as psykers.

No, I read the thread. As for if treated as Psyker you become a Psyker SHOW ME THE RULE. Until then treated as dose not make you something. Psykers have the word "Psyker" in in there Special Rules.

Well, if that's the case, Noir, then the vehicles can't use Pyskic powers, because nothing in that rule (other than saying they count as a Psyker) specifically says they can actually use powers.

It's simple. The vehicles either count as being a Psyker, or they don't.

I love all those people who want to have their cake and eat it, too. They want all the benefits and none of the negatives.

Maybe reread the GK Psyker Piolt rule, becouse the rule say you can use Payker powers, or the only one it has anyways. The rule dose not make you a Psyker. Only the word "Psyker" in the units entry dose that.

penek wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Agnosto. in fantesy, yes. in 40k, the rules are that if you don't have a Characteristic to test against the test doesn't get taken.

Where did you find that in Rulebook or FAQ? BRB page about tests says only that if you have 0 stat you auto-fail. it have nothing about not having stat at all.

So what actually happens if a Gk vehicle is a psyker is the game breaks and you can no longer play. you both lose.



the logical compromise is to say that models without certain stats are not required to take any tests associated with that stat. the Gk vehicle counts as having ld10 for the psychic test and if being countered by a psychic hood only.

Grey Templar wrote:
So what actually happens if a Gk vehicle is a psyker is the game breaks and you can no longer play. you both lose.

In the grimdarkness of the future there is no compromise!!!

It's a freaking rhino....just shoot it and move on. I would treat it the same as the daemonic posession rule that chaos has and doesn't have to roll anything for.

noir wrote:No, I read the thread. As for if treated as Psyker you become a Psyker SHOW ME THE RULE. Until then treated as dose not make you something. Psykers have the word "Psyker" in in there Special Rules.

Page 50 of the BRB second paragraph on the page, first sentence.

Psykers can use on psychic power per player turn.

In other words you must be a psyker to use psychic powers.

noir wrote:Maybe reread the GK Psyker Piolt rule, becouse the rule say you can use Payker powers, or the only one it has anyways. The rule dose not make you a Psyker. Only the word "Psyker" in the units entry dose that.

Psykers are the only ones that can make psychic tests to use psychic powers. Psychic pilot itself says, A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) ...

It does not say it is only a psyker when it's convenient, it is treated as a psyker. That means at all times, and if something forces a psyker to make an LD test it must make a test if able. As it does not have the same wording as the furioso libby, it cannot take a leadership test. Since it did not pass a leadership test it is removed from play, as per crucible of malediction. The fact that it can use psychic powers is enough to make it a psyker, but add in the fact that psychic pilot says it is treated as a psyker you take the good and the bad with that. Reminds me of an old saying, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it's not a dog. It's a duck.

The words counts as have become ubiquitous to the game of 40k, and if you count as something (Or are treated as something) you are that thing.

and the rest of the line gose"for psychic test and psychic hood." Notice nothing about being a Psyker, funny that.

and the rest of the line gose"for psychic test and psychic hood." Notice nothing about being a Psyker, funny that.

It is treated as a Psyker, that means it is a psyker. It has Ld10 for psychic tests and hoods ONLY.

The way it is worded you could read it as it is only treated as a psyker for psychic hoods and tests but isn't the natural language used (though a valid interpretation).

So either it is only a psyker for those 2 occurances and is in now way a psyker at other times or it is a Psyker at all times and thus is removed instantly by CoM.

Note if it is only a Psyker for psychic tests and hoods it can't ever use its powers effects as it can not declare it is using a power (as it is not a psyker) and cannot benefit from their result (because it is not a psyker). Which kind of tellls you which reading is correct.

So the fact the rule says for psychic test, dosen't mean it can take psychic test (how powers are used), odd that.

Noir wrote:So the fact the rule says for psychic test, dosen't mean it can take psychic test, odd that.

Here's the rule:

Psychic pilot:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If vehicle suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.

(emphasis mine)

A conjunction, which "and" is one of, indicates the joining of two clauses. In the case of "and" this means that one thing is being added to by another thing.

By applying some logic, it's quite easy to assume the following (in logical order):
1) A vehicle with this rule is treated as a psyker.
2) It has a leadership value of 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and hoods.

Now stop and ask yourself why the vehicle has this rule. It's difficult to imagine that a rhino, with the limited machine spirit that the IoM utilizes, has access to the warp. That means that someone, probably a crew member(s), is using a specialized psyker ability which makes him a psyker. Being as a Grey Knight is driving the vehicle, logic would dictate that this is the case which would further lead one to believe that the vehicle is being treated as a psyker for game simplification purposes and as vehicles (and their occupants) don't normally need be concerned with leadership tests, you might also be led to believe that also for game simplification purposes they added the second clause of the sentence which details the process for using this normally unused characteristic.

Don't believe me? Take the conjunction out of the sentence and make two sentences:
1. A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1).
2. (It has) Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

Personally, I don't care either way because I don't know anyone who plays GKs but it's extremely frustrating when GW writes such obscenely poor rules. If they would just hire people with better writing skills (or at least grammar skills) this wouldn't be an issue.

agnosto wrote:Personally, I don't care either way because I don't know anyone who plays GKs but it's extremely frustrating when GW writes such obscenely poor rules. If they would just hire people with better writing skills (or at least grammar skills) this wouldn't be an issue.

Yep. But they don't. So...

sourclams wrote:

agnosto wrote:Personally, I don't care either way because I don't know anyone who plays GKs but it's extremely frustrating when GW writes such obscenely poor rules. If they would just hire people with better writing skills (or at least grammar skills) this wouldn't be an issue.

Yep. But they don't. So...

Yeah, that's the sad part. Well, at least it gives us all something to talk about.

agnosto wrote:

A conjunction, which "and" is one of, indicates the joining of two clauses. In the case of "and" this means that one thing is being added to by another thing.

Not true. "And" can be used to join two clauses, but when this occurs, a comma is still used to separate the two clauses.

In this example there is no comma, therefore "and" is being used as "and" is in listing.

In this case, no comma, no separate clause, it's all one idea.

Which leads me to believe that other than for the purpose of what's listed, they aren't psykers.

Otherwise that assassin with the pistol will be getting many more shots per turn.

lucasbuffalo wrote:
Not true. "And" can be used to join two clauses, but when this occurs, a comma is still used to separate the two clauses.

In this example there is no comma, therefore "and" is being used as "and" is in listing.

In this case, no comma, no separate clause, it's all one idea.

Which leads me to believe that other than for the purpose of what's listed, they aren't psykers.

Otherwise that assassin with the pistol will be getting many more shots per turn.

Yes, one what to link to independant clauses is to place a common but common usage is such that, if the sentence is adequately short enough, it's not required. This situation is very similar to how a comma is used in a series (several items listed together) a comma may or may not be used:
1. He likes to eat apples, oranges, bananas, and pears.
2. He likes to eat apples, oranges, bananas and pears.
Both of the above sentences are equally acceptable.

Now, using what I know of English grammar I'll create sentences similar to the rule that is in question:
1. A model with this rule is considered to be jump infantry and is able to move 6" during the assault phase.
2. A model with this rule is considered to be jump infantry, and is able to move 6" during the assault phase.

The only difference between the above sentences is the comma usage which does not change the meaning of the sentence whatsoever. All you have to do is use the same deductive reasoning that I showed earlier, separate the clauses and you have an idea of what the sentence means. Some teachers tell students to use commas where my class was constantly told by out high-school English teacher, "Don't go comma crazy."

I tend to make the assumption, based upon the quality of their work, that GW staffers are semi-literate and/or there is a complete absence of an editing entity. This means that my interpretation may very well not be RAI but you can't fault myself or others if we interpret it differently from you. Until the baboons stop throwing excrement at each other and decide to write an FAQ, players that differ in opinion would be advised to simply "roll for it."

Vehicles are not affected.

Read the wording, remember it says:

'It is treated as being a psyker and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'

It is treated as being a psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

AND It is treated as being Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

Only for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods is it either of these things.

DeathReaper wrote:Vehicles are not affected.

Read the wording, remember it says:

'It is treated as being a psyker and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'

It is treated as being a psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

AND It is treated as being Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

Only for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods is it either of these things.

I guess I'm going to split hairs again on this issue. You said to read the wording, I recommend you do the same and not misquote the rule.

Psychic pilot:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If vehicle suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.

If they meant that the vehicle is only a psyker in that one instance, why didn't they simply say:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) only in relation to psychic tests and psychic hoods at which time it is considered to have Leadership 10.

Instead, they give us the above which basically means that the vehicle is treated as a psyker and has a leadership 10 only in situations of psychic tests and psychic hood checks. It was like a 3 year old sat down and forgot about all the rules and wargear out there that affects psykers and decided that there were only two events that would make a psyker need a leadership.

In any event, I'm done here. Anyone who wishes is more than welcome to disagree with me and, like I said before, I admit readily that I may be wrong but they'll need to FAQ it or absent that, I'll just go with what the majority of people think at my FLGS. It amazes me that the same company makes a game played by so many with so little regard to the clarity of the rules they write.

agnosto wrote:...why didn't they simply say...
... It was like a 3 year old sat down and forgot about all the rules and wargear out there that affects psykers and decided that there were only two events that would make a psyker need a leadership...

In any event, I'm done here. Anyone who wishes is more than welcome to disagree with me and, like I said before, I admit readily that I may be wrong but they'll need to FAQ it or absent that, I'll just go with what the majority of people think at my FLGS. It amazes me that the same company makes a game played by so many with so little regard to the clarity of the rules they write.

I would be amazed if they had 3 year olds writing the rules, they would be more understandable. You expected GW to write super clear rules? That is a good one, made me laugh. There are many things they can word better, reference BA Dread Librarian's "For Psychic Purposes"

I wrote 'It is treated as being a psyker and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.' thats what the rules say.
Then I broke the sentence down into its basic parts, since the original has been repeated many, many, many times.

I do not know why they write the rules the way they do, maybe because they are on the British standard and we are on the american standard as far as the English language goes.

It is treated as being a psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

Awesome so its powers are useless. It can't ever use a power as it is not a psyker until it takes a psychic test and the power can't take effect because guess what as soon as the test is done he's no-longer a psyker...

Either that or the vehicle counts as a psyker at all times and thus is able to use his powers by counting as Ld10 for the test required to activate them (and for the purpose of psychichoods).

FlingitNow wrote:

It is treated as being a psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

Awesome so its powers are useless. It can't ever use a power as it is not a psyker until it takes a psychic test and the power can't take effect because guess what as soon as the test is done he's no-longer a psyker...

Either that or the vehicle counts as a psyker at all times and thus is able to use his powers by counting as Ld10 for the test required to activate them (and for the purpose of psychichoods).

No, its powers are not useless Being a psyker or not has no bearing since 'It is treated as being a psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests'

so clearly you can take Psychic tests and use powers. and once the powers are resolved it reverts to a normal vehicle.

By your logic cover saves do nothing for vehicles because you take cover saves against wounds...

No, its powers are not useless Being a psyker or not has no bearing since 'It is treated as being a psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests'

so clearly you can take Psychic tests and use powers. and once the powers are resolved it reverts to a normal vehicle.

By your logic cover saves do nothing for vehicles because you take cover saves against wounds...

You can take psychic tests but you have no permission to count as a psyker to actually declare the use of a power or for the power to take effect. Your interpretation limits you to being a psyker ONLY when taking a test or being effected by a psychichood. Not to declare a power or resolve its effects...

Vehicles can use cover saves against glancing and penetrating hits as detailed in the vehicle rules otherwise no they would not be able to. By RaW they can't use invulnerable saves as they have no defined effect being ignoring wounds (which is not helpful to a Vehicle).

So either you can never use your powers or you are treated as a psyker, which is it?

I see this turning into another bladevane/shadowfield thread....

Alot of people are having a hard time with understanding that it can be a psyker, but also not have a floating LD value on it's statline.

Then when it casts Fortitude, and needs to 1) roll for a Psychic test, and 2) needs to contest an enemy player's roll for Psychic hood, it is given a LD value of 10 for the corresponding rolls.

Are you a psyker? Y/N
Do you have a LD value? No
Does this mean you can pass LD tests that are not Psychic tests? No, you have no LD characteristic. (CoM - Can you pass a leadership test? No, then you are removed from play)
Does this mean you can fail LD tests that are not Psychic tests? No, you have no LD characteristic. (Various abilities - Can you fail a leadership test? No, then an effect based on failure is void)
Time to cast Fortitude, but you don't have a LD value! Ahoy! Psychic Pilot gives you LD 10 for this purpose.
Oh no! A Librarian is using his psychic hood to roll off against your _NULL VALUE_ leadership! Now what? Ahoy! Psychic Pilot gives you LD 10 for this purpose.

Are you a psyker? Y/N
Do you have a LD value? No
Does this mean you can pass LD tests that are not Psychic tests? No, you have no LD characteristic. (CoM - Can you pass a leadership test? No, then you are removed from play)
Does this mean you can fail LD tests that are not Psychic tests? No, you have no LD characteristic. (Various abilities - Can you fail a leadership test? No, then an effect based on failure is void)
Time to cast Fortitude, but you don't have a LD value! Ahoy! Psychic Pilot gives you LD 10 for this purpose.
Oh no! A Librarian is using his psychic hood to roll off against your _NULL VALUE_ leadership! Now what? Ahoy! Psychic Pilot gives you LD 10 for this purpose.

QFT

FlingitNow wrote:

No, its powers are not useless Being a psyker or not has no bearing since 'It is treated as being a psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests'

so clearly you can take Psychic tests and use powers. and once the powers are resolved it reverts to a normal vehicle.

By your logic cover saves do nothing for vehicles because you take cover saves against wounds...

You can take psychic tests but you have no permission to count as a psyker to actually declare the use of a power or for the power to take effect. Your interpretation limits you to being a psyker ONLY when taking a test or being effected by a psychichood. Not to declare a power or resolve its effects...

Vehicles can use cover saves against glancing and penetrating hits as detailed in the vehicle rules otherwise no they would not be able to. By RaW they can't use invulnerable saves as they have no defined effect being ignoring wounds (which is not helpful to a Vehicle).

So either you can never use your powers or you are treated as a psyker, which is it?

you are given permission to count as a psyker "for the purposes of Psychic tests" Declaring the use of, casting, and resolving the effects of a psychic test is "for the purposes of Psychic tests" all three things are included in "for the purposes of Psychic tests"

@MikeMcSomething with that logic, you can use CoM on any vehicle since they cant pass a LD test...

but that is not what CoM says.

Declaring the use of, casting, and resolving the effects of a psychic test is "for the purposes of Psychic tests" all three things are included in "for the purposes of Psychic tests"

Where does it say that in the rules? Psychic tests are a specific part of using a psychic power. You have to declare the power and select a target (if applicable) then take the test and then resolve the effects. You are only a psyker for one step of that process therfore you can not perform any of the other steps.

@MikeMcSomething with that logic, you can use CoM on any vehicle since they cant pass a LD test...

But they are not psykers (or treated as psykers) GK vehicles are. Have you even read the CoM rules?

Yes, and GK vehicles are not psykers either.

It is treated as being a psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

AND It is treated as being Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

CoM is not a Psychic test or a Psychic hood.


Well you can declare without a LD value, you can resolve without a LD value, what is the issue?

DeathReaper wrote:@MikeMcSomething with that logic, you can use CoM on any vehicle since they cant pass a LD test...

Are you joking?

GK vehicles ARE psykers by any reading of the rules. CoM is not targeting "Anything that can not past a psychic test" it is targeting any psyker within the range you roll and saying "PASS a Leadership test or go back in your owner's army transport."

GK vehicles aren't psykers YES THEY ARE no they aren't YES THEY ARE no they aren't YES THEY ARE NO THEY AREN'T YOUR MOM IS AN ORK GK ARE BROKEN BANDWAGONER YES NO YES NO YES NO!

Continue your discussion.

Dashofpepper wrote:GK vehicles aren't psykers YES THEY ARE no they aren't YES THEY ARE no they aren't YES THEY ARE NO THEY AREN'T YOUR MOM IS AN ORK GK ARE BROKEN BANDWAGONER YES NO YES NO YES NO!

Continue your discussion.

I almost fell out of my chair on this one!!!!!

+1000 for Dash

DeathReaper wrote:Yes, and GK vehicles are not psykers either.

It is treated as being a psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

AND It is treated as being Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

CoM is not a Psychic test or a Psychic hood.


Well you can declare without a LD value, you can resolve without a LD value, what is the issue?

then you can do psychic tests all day long, but you can't declare that you want to use Fortitude, because you are not a psyker. (your lovely RAW)
LD value here out of the question. Without it you can't pass CoM test, so just removed as soon as CoM used. (but no we can't target you, you are not a Psyker! No cook.. i mean Fortitude for you!)

penek that logic is the same as vehicles with invuln saves not being able to use them, since Invuln saves save against wounds...

It is clear that GK vehicles are intended to cast psychic powers.

I also agree It should have been worded better, but that is nothing new when it comes to GW rules writers.

And P.50 in the BRB is worth taking another look at. it says psykers, but the vehicle is treated as a psyker for the purposes of this test.

If this came up in game I'd houserule it to say that the vehicle takes a ld10 test and if failed is immobilized, or in the case of a dreadnought gone. This would make the most sense. Feel free to argue RaW till blue in the face, but the RaW isn't clear, so insert a house rule IMO.

penek that logic is the same as vehivles with invuln saves not being able to use them, since Invuln saves save against wounds...

What is your point here? Everyone knows by RaW invuns don't do anything for vehicles.

It is clear that GK vehicles are intended to cast psychic powers.

I also agree It should have been worded better, but that is nothing new when it comes to GW rules writers.

And P.50 in the BRB is worth taking another look at. it says psykers, but the vehicle is treated as a psyker for the purposes of this test.

Yes they are so why are you clinging to an interpretation that means they can't? Using a psychic power is =/= to taking a psychic test. Taking a psychic test is part of using a power and if you say you are not a psyker except when taking the test you can never declare or use a power as you are not a psyker at the times when you do that.

So again I ask you are you either a Psyker all the time or can you not ever use your powers?

2DeathReaper
your logic is flawed. because:
1) you need to be psyker to declare\be able to use psy powers. You DON'T need LD stat to be psyker.
2) to not fail psy test you need test LD, and at that steep it doesn't really matter psyker you or not (you need test LD that what BGB says).
so basically
Psychic pilot:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If vehicle suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.
Or its always Psyker (be able to declare\use power) and have LD10 (for LD based psy test)
or its not a psyker so it can't initiate use of any psy powers from the beginning. Because BGB don't care about your LD, until Psychic Test steep.
so.. again it's doesn't matter who you are on Test steep.

The whole; "You inserted a comma" "No comma's to speak of!" arguement was absolute comic gold.

Who's on first!?

Lone Dragoon wrote:

noir wrote:No, I read the thread. As for if treated as Psyker you become a Psyker SHOW ME THE RULE. Until then treated as dose not make you something. Psykers have the word "Psyker" in in there Special Rules.

Page 50 of the BRB second paragraph on the page, first sentence.

Psykers can use on psychic power per player turn.

In other words you must be a psyker to use psychic powers.

So, by your logic, if I say "Monkeys can eat bananas", you have to be a monkey to be able to eat a banana?

im pretty sure to be able to use psychic powers in this game you are a psyker. their are no exceptions in this game for that.

there is no part time psyker, you either are a psyker or not.

given GW has been making faqs more universal you are pretty much guaranteed to see the wording of the BA libby dread change to match the GK faq ruling, or the GK faq ruling to match the current BA one.

The vehicle is a psyker.

if you want to get all fluffy about it CoM sucks the pilots into the warp and the stormraven crashes killing everyone inside, enjoy.


btw to all the GK players moaning, average distance roll on CoM is 10" or 11" and with Ld 10 there are only 3 possible dice combinations out of 36 that result in 11 or 12. so you only have about an 8% chance of failing the roll.

If your stormraven full of stuff is within 10" of a CoM and you didnt disembark/assault that turn you deserve to have an 8% chance of DOOOOOOM

blaktoof wrote:btw to all the GK players moaning, average distance roll on CoM is 10" or 11" and with Ld 10 there are only 3 possible dice combinations out of 36 that result in 11 or 12. so you only have about an 8% chance of failing the roll.

If your stormraven full of stuff is within 10" of a CoM and you didnt disembark/assault that turn you deserve to have an 8% chance of DOOOOOOM

The thing is, people are arguing (and IMO cherry-picking parts of the psychic pilot rules) that while the vehicle counts as a psyker all the time, it isn't allowed to use it's Ld against the CoM, as it isn't "for psychic tests or psychic hoods". Thus, the CoM would auto-remove GK vehicles.

As for the "can't use a psychic power if you're not a psyker when you declare you're using it", while I don't have my BRB with me I'm fairly certain that anyone can declare that they're using a psychic power they've got, they just aren't allowed to take the psychic test. The psychic pilot rules solves this by temporarily making the vehicle a psyker when it is called upon to take a psychic test.

Having gone through the trouble of querying a bunch of TOs for major events....

In the absence of an official FAQ, the ruling for this is going to be that GK vehicles are psykers (since they cast psychic powers), and will test leadership against LD10.

The only dissenting ruling came from Michael Brandt, who runs the Nova Open - but I hold faith that he'll see the light of reason.

Hey Dash, just curious, what did Brandt say? No effect or auto-remove?

Mike said that the vehicles aren't psykers.

Dashofpepper wrote:Mike said that the vehicles aren't psykers.

That's how I read the rule as well, I'm not so sure it's Mike that needs to come around to reason .

This is one of those "needs a TO's call or FAQ" as you've noted, and remember, TO's don't all have to agree since how they rule is their best-interpretation of how the rule is worded. No one is more right than anyone else. You noted that Mike Brandt ruled against your interpretation (which is just as valid as his), but you didn't mention specifically what TO's did agree, which ones were they?

It just depends on whether you break the sentence in the middle or not, as I read it, you don't. Due to this, they're ld10 and a psyker only for psychic tests and hoods, since the crucible isn't either, they aren't psykers when the "attack" (oh the debate on that word) is made.

Huzzah to Mike! (boo hiss to you!)

(All of the teasing was meant in good fun)

This is pretty cut and dry for me, when dealing with rules specifics override general. With that said the psychic pilot rule states specifically that a vehicle is treated as being a psyker for the purposes of psychic tests and hoods. This rule is very specific in that vehicles are only treated as psychers for these two things. If they were to be treated as psykers for everything then they would have stated that a vehicle is treated as a psyker for all intent and purposes. As far as i know that distinction is not made against any other model///unit with psychic abilities. So as I stated before specific overrules general.

With that said the psychic pilot rule states specifically that a vehicle is treated as being a psyker for the purposes of psychic tests and hoods. This rule is very specific in that vehicles are only treated as psychers for these two things.

It doesn't say this though it says they are psykers and that the they count as LD10 for those 2 purposes only. So they are always psykers (otherwise they wouldn't be able to use their powers) and are Ld10 for the psychic test and for any Psychichood attempt to nullify them. As it stands by RaW are either:

a) auto-removed
b) unable to ever use their psychic powers and hence the psychic pilot rule is pointless.

Granted the rule will turn out to be either:

a) They aren't psykers except for using psychic powers and the 2 incidences mentioned
b) They are Ld10 for anyting that effects psykers.

agnosto wrote:

Don't believe me? Take the conjunction out of the sentence and make two sentences:
1. A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1).
2. (It has) Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

You just sunk your entire argument. Those *aren't* two separate sentences in the RAW and shouldn't be applied as such. GK vehicles are psykers and leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods. No more, no less. CoM is not a psychic test.

Since psychic powers require psychic tests to activate, and GK vehicles are psykers for the purposes of pyschic tests, GK vehicles can use their psychic powers. GK vehicles do not have to take a psychic test because of CoM, so they are not psykers for that purpose.

Since psychic powers require psychic tests to activate, and GK vehicles are psykers for the purposes of pyschic tests, GK vehicles can use their psychic powers.

No they can't as they can't choose to use a power because they aren't psykers. If they are only psykers for the psychic test they aren't psykers when they declare they are using a power so they can't...

To use a power you must be a Psyker. So the order is:

a) Am I a Psyker - yes
b) Choose psychic power and target
c) Take psychic test
d) Use Psychichoods/ other nullifying effects
e) Resolve effects

You are claiming to only be a psykerfor stages c) and d) if so you can never get that far because you aren't one for a) and b)...

So either the sentence reads as you say making the entire rule redundant or you are a psyker all the time and have an Ld of 10 for psychic tests and psychichoods only.

BGB, pg.50:

The following general rules explain how psychic powers are employed. Exceptions to these rules are covered in the Codexes.

In the GK codex, GK vehicles have access to psychic powers and count as psykers for the purposes of psychic tests.

In the GK codex, mastery level indicates how many psychic powers a character can use per turn. GK vehicles are mastery level 1. GK vehicles may use a single psychic power per turn.

Flinger for your point to be correct it would have to read that vehicles are treated as being a psyker, and leadership xx for the purposes of psychic tests and hoods. The comma would break the psyker and the leadership up and make it so that the vehicle would be treated as a psyker at all times but it isnt written that way there is no comma and therefore the two go together and are only for the purpose of psychic tests and hoods.

In the GK codex, GK vehicles have access to psychic powers and count as psykers for the purposes of psychic tests.

Psychic tests yes, using psychic powers by your interpretation no.

In the GK codex, mastery level indicates how many psychic powers a character can use per turn. GK vehicles are mastery level 1. GK vehicles may use a single psychic power per turn.

Contradict yourself here as here you're saying they are psykers not just being psykers for psychic tests.

Flinger for your point to be correct it would have to read that vehicles are treated as being a psyker, and leadership xx for the purposes of psychic tests and hoods. The comma would break the psyker and the leadership up and make it so that the vehicle would be treated as a psyker at all times but it isnt written that way there is no comma and therefore the two go together and are only for the purpose of psychic tests and hoods.

You're reading requires a comma after LD 10. With no comma it is perfectly correct to read the sentence either way.

So by RaW either:

a) They are instantly removed by CoM
b) They can't use any psychic powers

Which is it?

FlingitNow wrote:

In the GK codex, mastery level indicates how many psychic powers a character can use per turn. GK vehicles are mastery level 1. GK vehicles may use a single psychic power per turn.

Contradict yourself here as here you're saying they are psykers not just being psykers for psychic tests.

General rule: Only psykers may use psychic powers.

Specific rule: Grey Knight vehicles may use psychic powers (thanks to mastery level 1) despite not being psykers, counting as a psyker for the purpouses of the tests and psychic hoods. Ta-daah! Non-psyker casting psychic powers within the limits of the rules!

Specific rule: Grey Knight vehicles may use psychic powers (thanks to mastery level 1) despite not being psykers, counting as a psyker for the purpouses of the tests and psychic hoods.

Where is the rule that allows them to use powers? Can you quote this rule? I can see that they are psykers for psychic tests and hoods but no rule that alloiws them to get to that part of the utilising a psychic power process unless they are always psykers...

FlingitNow wrote:

Specific rule: Grey Knight vehicles may use psychic powers (thanks to mastery level 1) despite not being psykers, counting as a psyker for the purpouses of the tests and psychic hoods.

Where is the rule that allows them to use powers? Can you quote this rule? I can see that they are psykers for psychic tests and hoods but no rule that alloiws them to get to that part of the utilising a psychic power process unless they are always psykers...

Ignore my earlier argument, I was misinformed, the mastery levels indeed do not affect the part of the rules that we are debating.

What I'd like to know, however, is where it says that you have to be a psyker to use a psychic power? All the rulebook says is that you have to be a psyker to be allowed to take a psychic test. Grey Knight vehicles are psykers for the purpouses of psychic tests, thus they're allowed to cast psychic powers without being a psyker all the time.

Just to touch on how people are reading the sentence. It actually reads:

"A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psycher (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods."


Several people are treating the sentence as if it were written this way:

A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psycher and is leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.




The addition of the word "is" in the second sentence changes the meaning and is how several people in this thread seem to be reading the rule.

The first sentence (as the actual RAW) really does give both of the parts of the sentence in question (psycher , leadersip 10) a condition (for purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods). It truly is a clear english sentence if one breaks it down according to the traditional rules of english language usage. The last few decades the common usage has deteriorated a great deal of course.

If the sentence were written the second way, then we do have separate clauses and the vehicle could be seen as always being a psycher.



Sliggoth

PS The comma is far overused in language today (still remember getting red marks for overuse waaaaay back when).

And this by no means addresses the question as to whether or not the vehicle really can use a psychic power by the RAW.

Two thumbs up for you, my friend. It seems reading ability is the biggest factor in ability to properly interpret the rules.

FlingitNow wrote:
Where is the rule that allows them to use powers? Can you quote this rule?

GK Codex, pg 33.

Fortitude: The Grey Knight pilot triggers the vehicle's psychoreactive armour plating, recalibrating its systems. This power may be used in the Grey Knights' Movement phase. If the Psychic test is successful,[...]

The conditions under which the power may be used are listed in the GK codex. The BGB specifically says that codexes override the general rules.

FlingitNow wrote:

Specific rule: Grey Knight vehicles may use psychic powers (thanks to mastery level 1) despite not being psykers, counting as a psyker for the purpouses of the tests and psychic hoods.

Where is the rule that allows them to use powers? Can you quote this rule? I can see that they are psykers for psychic tests and hoods but no rule that alloiws them to get to that part of the utilising a psychic power process unless they are always psykers...

You keep hammering this point over and over that some rule exists that in order to use a psychic power, you must be a psyker. Where is that rule? Can you quote it? All I can see is that in order to cast a psychic power, you must pass a psychic test. Doesn't state anywhere that you have to be a Psyker.

GK vehicles ARE psykers for the purposes of psychic tests (AKA Casting Psychic powers)

The vehicle is trated as a psyker for casting Psychic powers AKA Psychic tests.

So even though it doesnt say "in order to use a psychic power, you must be a psyker." vehicle can still use their psychic power.

It even says "Grey Knight vehicles may use psychic powers", that rule lets them psyker or not.

The conditions under which the power may be used are listed in the GK codex.

The conditions under which a psyker can caste a psychic power.

The BGB specifically says that codexes override the general rules.

No it doesn't. Otherwise power weapons wouldn't work.

GK vehicles ARE psykers for the purposes of psychic tests (AKA Casting Psychic powers)

Passing a psychic test is not the same as casting (or using) a psychic power. It is part of the process. Just like rolling to hit isn't the same as firing a weapon. So if you counted as having a ranged weapon for rolling to hit would you be able to shoot? No because you could declare your shooting attack or select a target.

You keep hammering this point over and over that some rule exists that in order to use a psychic power, you must be a psyker. Where is that rule? Can you quote it?

BrB pg 50 "Pskers can use one psychic power per player turn."

FlingitNow wrote:

The BGB specifically says that codexes override the general rules.

No it doesn't. Otherwise power weapons wouldn't work.

What part of "Exceptions to these rules are covered in the Codexes" is vague or hard to understand?

In the BGB, it says Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn. In the GK codex, it says GK vehicles have the Fortitude special ability and may use it during their movement phase. Because of the quote in the BGB, the GK codex takes precedence.

This has nothing to do with power weapons.

In the BGB, it says Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn. In the GK codex, it says GK vehicles have the Fortitude special ability and may use it during their movement phase. Because of the quote in the BGB, the GK codex takes precedence.

Not specifically enough. It describes how a psychic power is used within the rules of the psychic power. It does not state which vehicle uses the power and unless it is a psyker it can't. Just because you believe that no-GK vehicles are psykers and thus this must be the rule allowing them to cast a power doesn't make it so. All psychic powers describe how they are cast that doesn't mean non-psykers can now cast them or that Psykers can cast as many as they want or any of the other restrictions that normally apply to casting a psychic power unless they specifically override those restrictions.


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What part of "Exceptions to these rules are covered in the Codexes" is vague or hard to understand?

Exceptions yes it doesn't blanket that Codex overrides rulebook as you initially claimed.

FlingitNow wrote:

You keep hammering this point over and over that some rule exists that in order to use a psychic power, you must be a psyker. Where is that rule? Can you quote it?

BrB pg 50 "Pskers can use one psychic power per player turn."

So? It just says Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn. Guess what, that's also the Psychic Pilot says.

'Can use' does not equal 'have to be one or you can't'. Monkeys can eat bananas, but you don't have to be a monkey for it to be possible to eat a banana.

Edit: to clarify, all that the rules about Psychic Powers state is that:
A. You need to pass a Psychic test to be able to use it.
B. As a Psychic test is a Leadership test, you need a Leadership value to be able to pass it.

And of course, logic dictates:
C. You need to have a Psychic power to be able to use it.
D. You need a rule that states how many powers you can use.

Psychic Pilot gives you a Leadership value of 10 and Psyker Level of 1 for the purposes of Psychic tests, so that covers point A, B and D. And C is covered by the inclusion of a Psychic power in the vehicle's unit entry. So by RAW a GK vehicle can cast powers just fine thank you.

Monkeys can eat bananas, but you don't have to be a monkey for it to be possible to eat a banana.

You do in a permissive ruleset.

So? It just says Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn. Guess what, that's also the Psychic Pilot says.

Gues what no it isn't...

Lelith Hesperax is neither a Monstrous Creature, nor does she have a power weapon, and yet armor saves cannot be taken against wounds caused by her. Why? Because her rules say so.

GK vehicles are only psykers for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods, and yet they may use an ability that's labeled a "psychic power." Why? Because their rules say so.

FlingitNow wrote:

Monkeys can eat bananas, but you don't have to be a monkey for it to be possible to eat a banana.

You do in a permissive ruleset.

So? It just says Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn. Guess what, that's also the Psychic Pilot says.

Gues what no it isn't...

The GK Psychic Pilot and Psyker Mastery rules give you permission to use X number of psychic powers. There, permission granted.

GK vehicles are only psykers for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods, and yet they may use an ability that's labeled a "psychic power." Why? Because their rules say so.

Well thats the point isn't it the rule could be read eitherway and that they could be psykers all the time and Ld10 for psychic tests and hoods.

Your way of reading the rule means that yes they have psychic powers and Ld10 for Psychic tests but no they can't use those psychic powers. The other reading is that they are psykers and can use their psychic powers like normal psykers using the Ld of 10 for the test and any psychichoods around.

Remember the rules never give a model with psychic pilot specific permission to use a power. So unless they are psykers (as psychic pilots syas they are) they can't use those powers. If they are psykers they auto-go byebye ot CoM.


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The GK Psychic Pilot and Psyker Mastery rules give you permission to use X number of psychic powers. There, permission granted.

Yes but you only have the permission to use psychic powers whilst you are counting as mastery Lvl1. Which you are stating you do not count as until you come to a psychic test which means you can never get that far.

I could argue that GK vehicles are psykers, but realy i dont need to as there is no other way to read the rule.

This is exemplified by the fact that in order to try prove their point people are removing or adding words to the actual rule and posting that as "proof"


----------------------------------------------------------------

In both logic and english grammer AND is used to conjugate two clauses. Notice the last bit, two clauses not one. So the first clause is (1) the vehicle is a psyker AND (2) Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. Both of those clauses are true.

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This is raw. In the end though does it real matter? No TO is going to rule that the vehicles are automaticaly removed so lets all just laugh at GW and be on our way.

Solourus wrote:


----------------------------------------------------------------

In both logic and english grammer AND is used to conjugate two clauses. Notice the last bit, two clauses not one. So the first clause is (1) the vehicle is a psyker AND (2) Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. Both of those clauses are true.

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http://www.textdoctor.com/2011/03/third-grammar-lesson-of-the-year-using-a-comma-to-separate-two-independent-clauses/

The lack of a comma indicates that the entire statement is one independent clause, hence the belief that the vehicle is a "Psyker and leadership 10" for the two purposes given. It has nothing to do with adding to/taking from the sentence. It has to do with reading the sentence as it is actually written.

Unless I'm missing something. If so, enlighten me.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
What I'd like to know, however, is where it says that you have to be a psyker to use a psychic power? All the rulebook says is that you have to be a psyker to be allowed to take a psychic test. Grey Knight vehicles are psykers for the purpouses of psychic tests, thus they're allowed to cast psychic powers without being a psyker all the time.

(Quoted myself because the bolded part hasn't been adressed properly)

Fortitude, on page 33 of the Grey Knight Codex, further states that: "[...]This power may be used in the Grey Knight's Movement Phase[...]". There, you're allowed to use the power because the Codex says so. The only hurdle in your way is that the BRB states you have to be a psyker to use psychic powers, something that is solved by the psychic pilot rule. QED.

lucasbuffalo wrote:
The lack of a comma indicates that the entire statement is one independent clause, hence the belief that the vehicle is a "Psyker and leadership 10" for the two purposes given. It has nothing to do with adding to/taking from the sentence. It has to do with reading the sentence as it is actually written.

Commas are often not used in publications, including litterature and newspapers. That said commas are unreliable so its best not to use them to define weather or not it is an independant clause, so lets use the proper definition

"An independent clause is a group of words that contains a subject and verb and expresses a complete thought. An independent clause is a sentence"

Hmm, I actualy may be wrong here as there is only one subject, the vehicle. Unless "leadership" is the second subject which would make sense, as psychic tests are taken against leadership (being the subject of the test). However thats bit of a nebulous argument and 40k specific. So in the end I guess im now converted to not quite sure on this topic, I guess ill sleep on it.

lucasbuffalo wrote:

Unless I'm missing something. If so, enlighten me.

If you wish. From your statments I can make two conclusions

1) Your actual argument does not make sense ( Commas are used as a convention, but the lack of, or presense of a comma does not make something an independant clause).

2) Your conclusion might be correct, ill assume you were just tring to make the same argument as I have above.

Cheers

- Solourus

The only hurdle in your way is that the BRB states you have to be a psyker to use psychic powers, something that is solved by the psychic pilot rule.

This has been explained several times now. Please read the previous page where your point is addressed.


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Hmm, I actualy may be wrong here as there is only one subject, the vehicle. Unless "leadership" is the second subject which would make sense, as psychic tests are taken against leadership (being the subject of the test). However thats bit of a nebulous argument and 40k specific.

Yes how true how ridiculous of people to assume the sentence is 40k specific...

FlingitNow wrote:

The only hurdle in your way is that the BRB states you have to be a psyker to use psychic powers, something that is solved by the psychic pilot rule.

This has been explained several times now. Please read the previous page where your point is addressed.

Except it hasn't. The only requirement for casting psychic powers is that you have a psychic power to cast and that you pass a psychic test. Grey Knight vehicles have a psychic power, and count as psykers for the psychic test, which is the only thing required to cast a psychic power.

If this message sounds redundant, it's because it's brought to you by the department of redundancy department, who brought you this message (cheers to the Dakkanaut that posted that line first!).

Psychic Pilot overrides the requirement to be a psyker to cast a psychic power.


the Vehicle only counts as a psyker for psychic tests and hoods.


they may FAQ Crucible to affect them, but it would likely be Perils instead of 'remove'

Passing a psychic test is not the same as casting (or using) a psychic power. It is part of the process. Just like rolling to hit isn't the same as firing a weapon. So if you counted as having a ranged weapon for rolling to hit would you be able to shoot? No because you could declare your shooting attack or select a target.

If you are "only" passing a Ld test and not casting said psychic power per se then I see no reason why you (the GK vehicle that is) would be susceptible to a perils hit.
If you are risking perils then I´l pretty damn call it casting a psychic power!

There is nothing in the psychic pilot rule that says "not a psyker but may use the following psychic power as if one.."

or anything to that affect.

there is nothing in the psychic pilot rule that says they are only psykers for the purposes of xxx

there is nothing in the GK codex that says they may use psychic powers despite not being psykers..

there is nothing in the GK codex that says at anytime they are not a psyker or only during certain times are they a psyker.

it however does say that "they are psykers and for the purposes of blah blah blah"

so here we have a unit that IS a psyker

and the same unit gets to be LD 10 for psychic tests and psychic hoods.

if the ruleset is permissive than they are psykers all the time but can only use their LD 10 for psychic hoods and psychic tests.

There is no permission in their rules to be a psyker some time but not all the time, there is no permission in their rules to use psychic powers but not be a psyker.

If the rules set is permissive then CoM allows you to remove a model that is a psyker if it does not pass a LD test.

RAW the model is removed since it does not get to roll to pass its LD test as per its rules on what it can use its LD for.

blaktoof wrote:
it however does say that "they are psykers and for the purposes of blah blah blah"

So close, and yet so wrong. What it says is "they're psykers and Ld10 for the purpouses of blah blah blah". That isn't the same thing that you wrote, is it?

There's no place in the BRB that requires you to be a psyker to cast a psychic power, you just have to be one to pass a psychic test. Furthermore, page 33 states that "[...]You may use this power in the Grey Knights' Movement Phase[...]". Thus, not only are you lying, you're wrong.

Interesting arguments here....but I feel like something important is being left out.

The GK advocates here are saying "Codex rules override general rules."

That is true. However, there is no conflict between the GK codex and the general rulebook psyker entry.

The GK codex doesn't say, "GK vehicles are not psykers except when...." to create a conflict. Nor does it say, "GK vehicles are ONLY psykers when..." which would create a conflict....and which is how you guys seem to be trying to interpret it.

If that was the intent, it would have been very easy to write, "GK vehicles count as LD10 psykers only for the purposes of...." instead of "GK vehicles count as psykers AND..."

The most important thing to note though is that regardless of how it gets argued on Dakka, there is only one major event TO that I know of that isn't going to rule that GK vehicles are psykers and take LD10 tests against anti-psyker results. And I hold faith that he'll change his mind.

Just thought I would point this out. None of the vehicles in the GK codex contain the special rule Psyker. In the Blood Angels codex page 29 under special rules "Furioso Librarian also has Psyker: blah blah. So there we have a vehicle which is clearly defined as a psyker.

Dark Eldar Page 60 Crucible of Malediction: Every psyker within...

GK vehicles should not be considered pskyers normally otherwise they would have it listed under their special rules.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
it however does say that "they are psykers and for the purposes of blah blah blah"

So close, and yet so wrong. What it says is "they're psykers and Ld10 for the purpouses of blah blah blah". That isn't the same thing that you wrote, is it?

There's no place in the BRB that requires you to be a psyker to cast a psychic power, you just have to be one to pass a psychic test. Furthermore, page 33 states that "[...]You may use this power in the Grey Knights' Movement Phase[...]". Thus, not only are you lying, you're wrong.

that's still no change in permission.

They are psykers, yep. same as what I wrote.

And for the purposes of psychic hoods and psychic tests ld 10

cool!

So now they get to have an LD value for psychic tests and psychic hoods!

However they are still psykers.

So as per their rules they are not allowed to take an LD test to save against CoM, they are psykers AND are ld 10 for psychic tests and psychic hoods, they have no permission to use their ld for anything else. They are not only psykers sometimes, nor can they use psychic powers without being psykers- because they are actually psykers as per their rules, so they auto fail because their rules (thank you matt ward) does not allow them to use their LD for anything but psychic tests and psychic hoods RAW and they are psykers RAW. Just like if a GK player had 3 rad grenades in assault with a unit that was toughness 3, currently RAW they would auto be wounded. Or possibly auto die.... whatever.


i actually think matt ward has never read a codex other than space marines ones and has no idea what other units or wargear other armies have. You can notice this in his whole slowed plasma siphon rules.

blaktoof wrote: Lots'o'text

The point I was trying to make is that you can read "are psykers and leadership 10 yadda yadda" in two different ways. One is the way you're reading it, the other one is that they're only psykers (with Ld10) when the conditions are met, otherwise they're just another vehicle. Misquoting rules so that they can only mean the thing you're interpreting them as is ignorant at best, downright malignant at worst.

You're changing the wording to suit your argument, blaktoof.

The actual wording:

A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

Your modification:

A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods is Leadership 10.

It's a pretty huge difference.

The actual wording could be read (which is why this argument exists in the first place):
A vehicle [...] is a psyker. And. Leadership 10 for the purposes of [...]

But you're changing how it's written, which is probably not a good idea.



Also, can someone point out to me the rule or FAQ that says a unit automatically fails a test for a characteristic it doesn't posses? Pretty much everything I've read that (for instance) says it "automatically wounds on a roll of X+" also says it doesn't effect vehicles (seeing as they don't actually have wounds in the first place). Are we just assuming that a vehicle without a leadership value is treated as LD 0, or is there a rule that backs this up?

"A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods."

still says its a psyker, and LD for psychic tests and psychic hoods

psyker= yes

part time psyker= no RAW

can use psychic powers without being a psyker=no RAW

can use LD for anything other than psychic tests and psychic hoods?= no RAW

I am not changing the wording, apologies for not using the exact wording. You can not add the words "for the purpose of" because RAW that is not there. That is what you want to be there.

it still is a psyker with no permission to not be a psyker at any point in time.

it only has permission to use LD for psychic tests and psychic hoods.

Normally this isn't a problem for vehicles since you don't need to take LD tests, however matt ward probably doesnt really look at other codexes.

Currently RAW for the model it is a psyker. it gets to be LD 10 for psychic hoods and psychic tests.

there is no RAW that its not a psyker but can use psychic powers.

there is no RAW that it only counts as a psyker for the time it is using psychic powers.

There is RAW that models that are psykers must pass an LD test or be removed from CoM.

Given that it is a psyker and not a psyker some of the time or can use psychic abilities without being a psyker, and is given permission to be LD 10 for psychic hoods and psychic tests. it is not given permission to be LD 10 for anything else in its rules it would be removed from play without a roll if CoM was used near it, or the game would breakdown because there is a possibile disconnect with failing a test if you do not have a characteristic versus being 0 in a characteristic and auto failing.

blaktoof wrote:I am not changing the wording, apologies for not using the exact wording. You can not add the words "for the purpose of" because RAW that is not there. That is what you want to be there.

I think you're confused:

blaktoof wrote:

They are psykers, yep. same as what I wrote.

And for the purposes of psychic hoods and psychic tests ld 10

There's no comma after psyker, there's no "is" or "as" before Leadership. There's nothing to indicate that their status is a "psyker" is separate from "for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods."

blaktoof wrote:I am not changing the wording, apologies for not using the exact wording. You can not add the words "for the purpose of" because RAW that is not there. That is what you want to be there.

Wait what?


Also,

blaktoof wrote:can use psychic powers without being a psyker=no RAW

again I say: the only requirement, as per the BRB, for a model to cast a psychic power is that it pass a psychic test. The BRB then goes on to state that only psykers may take psychic tests. Guess who counts as a psyker for psychic tests?

blaktoof wrote:can use psychic powers without being a psyker=no RAW

again I say: the only requirement, as per the BRB, for a model to cast a psychic power is that it pass a psychic test. The BRB then goes on to state that only psykers may take psychic tests. Guess who counts as a psyker for psychic tests?

If you are "only" passing a Ld test and not casting said psychic power per se then I see no reason why you (the GK vehicle that is) would be susceptible to a perils hit.
If you are risking perils then I´l pretty damn call it casting a psychic power!

Yes if you are taking a psychic test you are doing that as part of caasting a psychic power. But the argument being laid out is that the vehicles are not psykers unless they are taking a psychic test which means they can never use a psychic power.

The only requirement for casting psychic powers is that you have a psychic power to cast and that you pass a psychic test.

Incorrect you must be a psyker with a psychic power who passes a psychic test.

Grey Knight vehicles have a psychic power, and count as psykers for the psychic test, which is the only thing required to cast a psychic power.

No they have to be a psyker to cast the power and still be a psyker when taking the test and still be a psyker when the power is resolved.

FlingitNow wrote:

If you are "only" passing a Ld test and not casting said psychic power per se then I see no reason why you (the GK vehicle that is) would be susceptible to a perils hit.
If you are risking perils then I´l pretty damn call it casting a psychic power!

Yes if you are taking a psychic test you are doing that as part of caasting a psychic power. But the argument being laid out is that the vehicles are not psykers unless they are taking a psychic test which means they can never use a psychic power.

The only requirement for casting psychic powers is that you have a psychic power to cast and that you pass a psychic test.

Incorrect you must be a psyker with a psychic power who passes a psychic test.

Grey Knight vehicles have a psychic power, and count as psykers for the psychic test, which is the only thing required to cast a psychic power.

No they have to be a psyker to cast the power and still be a psyker when taking the test and still be a psyker when the power is resolved.

Where in the rulebook does it say that? All I can see on page 50 (or possibly 51, can't remember which one of the two, doesn't really matter) is that you have to pass a psychic test to cast a psychic power. It doesn't say ANYWHERE that you have to be a psyker to declare that you're using a psychic power. All it says (which I've pointed out like 5 times now, and you jsut counter with "NO BECAUSE I SAY SO!") is that you have to pass a psychic test, and that you have to be a psyker to pass the test.

blaktoof wrote:

blaktoof wrote:can use psychic powers without being a psyker=no RAW

AlmightyWalrus wrote:again I say: the only requirement, as per the BRB, for a model to cast a psychic power is that it pass a psychic test. The BRB then goes on to state that only psykers may take psychic tests. Guess who counts as a psyker for psychic tests?

so yeah, they are psykers. check.

They are psykers for the purpouses of psychic tests. Anyone could easily understand that this means that they're not psykers otherwise. Again, they're not psykers until they take the psychic test, and they stop being psykers once the test is over until they cast their next psychic power.

Next time you try to refute the rules, could you provide quotes from the BRB to back your claims up instead of just saying "that's how it works because I say so"?

Where in the rulebook does it say that? All I can see on page 50 (or possibly 51, can't remember which one of the two, doesn't really matter) is that you have to pass a psychic test to cast a psychic power. It doesn't say ANYWHERE that you have to be a psyker to declare that you're using a psychic power. All it says (which I've pointed out like 5 times now, and you jsut counter with "NO BECAUSE I SAY SO!") is that you have to pass a psychic test, and that you have to be a psyker to pass the test.

Please read the previous pages where this was laid out. The BrB gives Psykers (and only Psykers) to cast 1 psychic power per turn. Please state where you have permission to cast a psychic power if you are not a psyker.

FlingitNow wrote:Please read the previous pages where this was laid out. The BrB gives Psykers (and only Psykers) to cast 1 psychic power per turn. Please state where you have permission to cast a psychic power if you are not a psyker.

"A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods."


If the vehicle was truly a psyker in all respects the whole 'and' clause would be completely unnecessary. The rules would just say 'A vehicle with this special rule is a psyker (Mastery level 1)'.

For all effects limited to psychic tests and psychic hoods, it's a psyker. For anything else, it's not.

sourclams wrote:If the vehicle was truly a psyker in all respects the whole 'and' clause would be completely unnecessary.

Not true, unless they are going to have the vehicle subject to all LD rules and effects as well.

"A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods."


If the vehicle was truly a psyker in all respects the whole 'and' clause would be completely unnecessary. The rules would just say 'A vehicle with this special rule is a psyker (Mastery level 1)'.

For all effects limited to psychic tests and psychic hoods, it's a psyker. For anything else, it's not.

The and clause highlights how it becomes Ld10 for tests and hoods. As kirsanth has pointed out. If you want your reading that the"for the purpose of psychic tests and Psychichoods" includes the part about being a psyker then you can never use psychic powers.

I'm not saying carte blanche that reading is incorrect it has a standing in RaW but that makes the entire rule do nothing. The other (also entirely legitimate) reading means you can use your psychic powers and the rule then does something but means you are auto-killed by CoM.

FlingitNow wrote:

Where in the rulebook does it say that? All I can see on page 50 (or possibly 51, can't remember which one of the two, doesn't really matter) is that you have to pass a psychic test to cast a psychic power. It doesn't say ANYWHERE that you have to be a psyker to declare that you're using a psychic power. All it says (which I've pointed out like 5 times now, and you jsut counter with "NO BECAUSE I SAY SO!") is that you have to pass a psychic test, and that you have to be a psyker to pass the test.

Please read the previous pages where this was laid out. The BrB gives Psykers (and only Psykers) to cast 1 psychic power per turn. Please state where you have permission to cast a psychic power if you are not a psyker.

That has also been covered. Page 33, more specifically the text for the power "Fortitude":

Codex: Grey Knights page 33 wrote:The Grey Knight pilot triggers the vehicle's psycho-reactive armour plating, recalibrating its systems. This power may be used in the Grey Knights' Movement Phase. If the Psychic test is successful, any crew shaken and crew stunned results already on the vehicle are nullified and no longer apply.

Emphasis mine.

Furthermore, while the rulebook does tell us that psykers may use psychic powers, we now also have Codex: Grey Knights telling us that we may use a specific psychic power. The only obstacle that's left is that you have to be a psyker to pass the psychic test, after which the power is successfully cast. Psychic pilot takes care of that hurdle, leaving us with a non-psyker casting psychic powers.

FlingitNow wrote:

"A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods."


If the vehicle was truly a psyker in all respects the whole 'and' clause would be completely unnecessary. The rules would just say 'A vehicle with this special rule is a psyker (Mastery level 1)'.

For all effects limited to psychic tests and psychic hoods, it's a psyker. For anything else, it's not.

The and clause highlights how it becomes Ld10 for tests and hoods.

This is correct. There's no other way in English to grammatically interpret that sentence.

Grey Knight vehicles are treated as Psykers.

Grey Knight vehicles are treated as Ld 10 for the purpose of psychic tests and psychic hoods.



The only problem that remains is how does a Crucible of Malediction interact with psykers that have no Ld score.

That's not permission to cast the power as a non-psyker that is a description of how and when a psyker can cast the power.

Using your logic a Howling Banshee can assault out of a moving Wave Serpent by running utilising the fleet rule to enable her to assault...

FlingitNow wrote:That's not permission to cast the power as a non-psyker that is a description of how and when a psyker can cast the power.

Using your logic a Howling Banshee can assault out of a moving Wave Serpent by running utilising the fleet rule to enable her to assault...

Except she's explicitly forbidden from doing so by the rules. Had page 50 said "no model other than a model with the "psyker" special rule may cast psychic powers", you'd have a point, but all it does is give us one example of when you're allowed to use psychic powers. C:GK pg. 33 gives us another. Thus, they get to use powers etc etc etc.

Except she's explicitly forbidden from doing so by the rules. Had page 50 said "no model other than a model with the "psyker" special rule may cast psychic powers", you'd have a point, but all it does is give us one example of when you're allowed to use psychic powers. C:GK pg. 33 gives us another. Thus, they get to use powers etc etc etc.

So whats stopping me from using the power a 2nd time if I fail to cast it the first time? You are claiming this is blanket permission to use the power the only restriction on the power being used once comes from the psykers being able to use 1 power per turn since your saying this removes that restriction then you can keep casting that power until you are successful. It also makes you immune to perils as you're not a psyker for perils. So an easier way to word it would have been: Psychic pilot: Vehicle ignores all shakken and stunned results.

FlingitNow wrote:
So whats stopping me from using the power a 2nd time if I fail to cast it the first time? You are claiming this is blanket permission to use the power the only restriction on the power being used once comes from the psykers being able to use 1 power per turn since your saying this removes that restriction then you can keep casting that power until you are successful. It also makes you immune to perils as you're not a psyker for perils. So an easier way to word it would have been: Psychic pilot: Vehicle ignores all shakken and stunned results.

Being a psyker for the psychic test would stop you, as you're only allowed to take one psychic test per turn unless otherwise stated. Perils is handled by psychic pilot stating that the vehicle suffers a glancing hit if it perils, which it does if it's a psyker when it fails a psychic test on a roll of 12 or 2.

if a psyker is allowed to use multiple powers he can use the same one twice unless there are additional restrictions(PSA)

Being a psyker for the psychic test would stop you, as you're only allowed to take one psychic test per turn unless otherwise stated.

Not true you are rstricted to 1 power per turn not 1 psychic test. You are the on claiming that the 1 power per turn restriction doesn't apply as that is the restriction that requires you to be a psyker. Thre is no restriction on psychic tests...

FlingitNow wrote:

Being a psyker for the psychic test would stop you, as you're only allowed to take one psychic test per turn unless otherwise stated.

Not true you are rstricted to 1 power per turn not 1 psychic test. You are the on claiming that the 1 power per turn restriction doesn't apply as that is the restriction that requires you to be a psyker. Thre is no restriction on psychic tests...

The way I see it, part of using a psychic power is passing a psychic test. You're not allowed to pass the psychic test, as you count as a psyker for it and have already used your psychic power for the turn.

The way I see it, part of using a psychic power is passing a psychic test. You're not allowed to pass the psychic test, as you count as a psyker for it and have already used your psychic power for the turn.

Part of shooting is rolling to hit. Just because you are restricted to firing 1 weapon doesn't mean you are restricted to rolling to hit once.

Particularly if you remove the restriction to fire 1 weapon (which you are claiming Psychic Pilot does for the psychic powers).

FlingitNow wrote:

The way I see it, part of using a psychic power is passing a psychic test. You're not allowed to pass the psychic test, as you count as a psyker for it and have already used your psychic power for the turn.

Part of shooting is rolling to hit. Just because you are restricted to firing 1 weapon doesn't mean you are restricted to rolling to hit once.

Particularly if you remove the restriction to fire 1 weapon (which you are claiming Psychic Pilot does for the psychic powers).

Isn't it "pass psychic test, then apply effects"? As such the effective limiter of wether you get to use a psychic power is the psychic test, which means that your ability to pass a psychic test is what decides if you're allowed to use a psychic power or not. Without any rules governing it, you'd be free to test as many times as you wished as long as you didn't die. Then we have the rulebook stating that you're normally only allowed one test per psyker per turn. Then we have the GK Codex stating that you're a psyker for psychic tests. As such, when checking to see if you're allowed to use a psychic power when you've already used one, you come to the inevitable conclusion that to pass a psychic test you have to count as a psyker and as such can't pass, as you're only allowed one psychic power per turn when you're a psyker.

Isn't it "pass psychic test, then apply effects"? As such the effective limiter of wether you get to use a psychic power is the psychic test, which means that your ability to pass a psychic test is what decides if you're allowed to use a psychic power or not.

No restriction exists. To cast a psychic power the only restriction is in the BrB is that Psykers are allowed to do it once per player turn. You're saying that fortitude overrides that restriction thus you can cast it as many times as you want.

Without any rules governing it, you'd be free to test as many times as you wished as long as you didn't die.

Yes that is true, you take the test once per psychic power (as that is part of the psychic power process, just as you apply the results once per psychic power) but if you remove the restriction on how many psychic powers you can cast then yes you can keep going until you are successful or perils kills you.

Then we have the rulebook stating that you're normally only allowed one test per psyker per turn.

It says no such thing. It remains silent on how many tests you can take per turn. It only says how many powers you can cast per turn.

Then we have the GK Codex stating that you're a psyker for psychic tests.

Agreed.

As such, when checking to see if you're allowed to use a psychic power when you've already used one, you come to the inevitable conclusion that to pass a psychic test you have to count as a psyker and as such can't pass, as you're only allowed one psychic power per turn when you're a psyker.

But you say you don't check the restriction to being a psyker (and thus being able to use one power) because fortitude overrides that. If you check if you can use a power before taking the psychic test (i.e. like every other psyker in the game) then you can't ever use a power because you are not a psyker at that point. So yes your last point is entirely correct and that is why if you are only a psyker for psychic tests you can not use your powers.

FlingitNow wrote:

Then we have the rulebook stating that you're normally only allowed one test per psyker per turn.

It says no such thing. It remains silent on how many tests you can take per turn. It only says how many powers you can cast per turn.

That's the point, psychic tests are the only way to know wether your psychic power was cast or not, thus "use one power per turn" could be interpreted to mean "pass one test per turn".

Let me rephrase my stance on the issue: If you're ever a psyker during the process of casting a psychic power, you'll have to comply with any limitations of being a psyker, which in this case means you can only cast fortitude once per turn. As the psychic test is the first thing that happens when you cast a psychic power, you're temporarily made a psyker and thus have to abide by any restrictions. As psykers are only allowed (normally) to cast one psychic power per turn, you're not allowed to take the psychic test, as that would result in you casting a psychic power again.

In order of least to most specific:
BRB gives permission to psykers to cast psychic powers < Grey Knight Codex grants exception < BRB only lets you use one power, as you're not explicitly allowed to use more than one

That's the point, psychic tests are the only way to know wether your psychic power was cast or not, thus "use one power per turn" could be interpreted to mean "pass one test per turn".

No we can't anymore that we can interpret "shoot one weapon per turn" as "roll to hit once per turn".

If you're ever a psyker during the process of casting a psychic power, you'll have to comply with any limitations of being a psyker, which in this case means you can only cast fortitude once per turn.

But that stance isn;t backed by the rules at all. You check only at the point when you declare you are using a psychic power. At that point being a psyker is necessary if you're not you can't use a power, whether or not you later become a psyker for the actual test.