In your opinion what is the most underpointed unit in 40k. Minus titans etc.

Imo id have to say the ork battlewagon. For its points it rocks!!!!

As a fairly new returning player to 40k im curious as to how certain armys beards are doing?

Thanks guys.

The Vendetta. 130 Points for 3 TL Lascannons on a fast skimmer that has transport capacity.

Gavo wrote:The Vendetta. 130 Points for 3 TL Lascannons on a fast skimmer that has transport capacity.

Thats insane! What is the troop capacity?

taylor048 wrote:

Gavo wrote:The Vendetta. 130 Points for 3 TL Lascannons on a fast skimmer that has transport capacity.

Thats insane! What is the troop capacity?

12. It also has Scouts, meaning it can outflank.

Gavo wrote:The Vendetta. 130 Points for 3 TL Lascannons on a fast skimmer that has transport capacity.

Don't forget it comes with Extra Armor, and has the Scout ability and Deep Strike, and you can take up to 3 per FoC slot (although doing so is generally rather dumb, they feel like they were costed as though they'd only ever be taken in squadrons of 3, in which case they are about right, but not for 3 units of 1)

The Vendetta is a rather silly unit.


That said, there are some other good ones out there. Grey Hunters are just as painfully underpriced as Vendettas. Long Fangs are another, not even IG can field as much firepower or wield it as effectively in the same points you can get three squads of 5 Missile Launcher toting Long Fangs for. Baal preds aren't necessarily poorly costed but shouldn't have Scouts and should be Heavy Support not Fast Attack. The upcoming Grey Knights Purifiers I feel may be pretty bad, especially against Horde armies. Of course there are always the TH/SS terminators that people would still probably take even if they were 10pts per model more.

Hands down for me the vendetta. Seems they went with more $ vs more point cost . Holy crap 3 tl lascannons for 130 points and extra armour. ok thats powerfull better make the model cost 50 or so because the players will want alot.

Yeah Vendetta is like WTF?
It also has deep strike, extra armour and can unload troops while moving flat out.

Let's compare here to something similar - Eldar Falcon.
Vendetta + extra double (double! not twin linked) HBolters is 140 if I'm not mistaken.
Falcon with Brightlance and Spirit Stones and Shuriken Cannon is 165.
We have two BS3 12/12/10 fast skimmer transports with heavy armour.
- Price 140 for 165 to Vendetta.
- 3LT lascannons vs Brightlance and Pulse laser. Twin-linked three S9 vs three normal S8 shots (one Lance). Vendetta rules again.
- Capacity 12 to 6. V!
- 2 Heavy bolters > 1 Shuriken Cannon. Double the fun for V.
- Scout, Deep Strike, and possibility of throwing unit during flat out.
- Additional customization is a plus for Falcon (engines or holo-fields). Not popular, not so good (HF may be an exception), pricey but it's there. So a "win" for Falcon.
- Fast Attack vs Heavy Slot. Arguable but such a powerhouse not occupying HS is much better in my opinion.

Only 3TL brightlances cost more than this flying powerhouse..

Edit: ninjad hard by everybody..

Basically a ploy to make guard players go ' Oh my GAWD- win button! ' and buy lots and lots of 70.00 models

Echoing the Vendetta. I don't understand how the 30 points more it costs over a Valkyrie (which I find fairly priced) makes up for 3 twin linked lascannons. Considering one twin linked lascannon is around 65 for a Predator? Ridiculous.

Comparing the Falcon directly to the Vendetta doesn't really work. There's an edition gap and three years of game design changes. Don't forget how atrociously powerful the Falcon was when that book came out however. The Falcon was costed (undercosted) for 4th edition, where it was nigh unkillable. Once 5E came around it became significantly less capable. That said, If you remember facing Falcons in 2006, they were probably the most broken thing in the game.

Actually, I don't remember facing them because I'm fairly new to the game. Started around the launch of fifth edition.
I agree that 4E vs 5E is not a good choice but it is the closest vehicle I could think of stats and equipment wise.

Most of the big ones have been hit.

Vendetta
Chimera
Long Fangs
Grey Hunters

Was gonna say, what about Long Fangs?

Every space marine...

Kevin949 wrote:Every space marine...

Even Dark Angels Company veterans?

Polonius wrote:Most of the big ones have been hit.

Vendetta
Chimera
Long Fangs
Grey Hunters

The Chimera only really becomes bad when you pair it with certain units. On its own, its relatively fine. With Infantry Squads, its fine. When paired with Veterans and Company Command Squads is when it gets a bit silly.

It's kinda weird how that works out. Footslogging command squads and vets are...bad. A Chimera all on its onesy isn't really too much to write home about. Combine them, and they become very powerful.

Vaktathi wrote:

Polonius wrote:Most of the big ones have been hit.

Vendetta
Chimera
Long Fangs
Grey Hunters

The Chimera only really becomes bad when you pair it with certain units. On its own, its relatively fine. With Infantry Squads, its fine. When paired with Veterans and Company Command Squads is when it gets a bit silly.

It's kinda weird how that works out. Footslogging command squads and vets are...bad. A Chimera all on its onesy isn't really too much to write home about. Combine them, and they become very powerful.

I suppose, but vets are also good in valks, while chimeras are pretty good with anything other than an infantry squad in them. PCS with four flamers and chimera is 105pts of flambe!

Under priced?

Marbo. Jesus christ, Marbo.

The vets basically need a transport, and are often a suicide unit in a Valk. The 4x Flamer command squad is nice no doubt, but also often ends up disappearing the next turn as it needs to be very close to its target and often angled to present an AV10 facing to optimally engage an enemy unit. I think the Chimera would be seen in a different light if the fire points changed to being "2 transported guns +X additional *lasguns*" That would certainly crimp vet and command squad units, while not really making too much of a different to the units where its not really a problem with now (e.g. Stormtroopers, Infantry Squads, Ogryns, etc) and not making the Chimera back into the heap it used to be.

What kind of armour does the vendetta have?
i know very little about ig sorry.

taylor048 wrote:What kind of armour does the vendetta have?
i know very little about ig sorry.

12/12/10. Same as a Wave Serpent/Hellhound/Falcon/etc.

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:Under priced?

Marbo. Jesus christ, Marbo.

How much does Jesus Christ cost?

Heh. when I first saw the title of this thread, I thought "none, all the models are so damned expensive".

durr.

My buddy would argue the monolith is under-priced as well.

What about your ordinary ork boy?
6pts a model is pretty awesome for what they can do.
I mean kroot are 7pts each and blow pretty bad in comparison?

Belial of the Dark Angels is stupid undercosted, not even taking into account his special rules.

Kevin949 wrote:My buddy would argue the monolith is under-priced as well.

By itself, it probably is. It's incredibly capable for what it costs. However, given how poor the rest of the army is, it's sorta irrelevant, especially with the existence of Phaseout. That said, I'd expect it to become a bit more expensive in any new Necron codex in the future given that the rest of the army will likely become far more capable, though I could be wrong.

It's the same argument for Vulkan. On his own, he's amazingly undercosted, but works best at boosting units that are often slightly overcosted.

Honestly, I don't think the Necrons can get much better; I'd put the whole army up as underpriced at this point.

Well, Vulkan buffs pretty much most things, undercosted or not, that SM players typically take. If nothing else he's worth the extra points 20pts over a normal, similarly kitted Captain kitted for combat simply for his Heavy Flamer, getting to keep his pistol, and the wound reroll, nevermind buffing TH/SS termi's and most all of the infantry/dread carried weapons in such armies.

I've seen more IG armies without Chimeras than SM armies without Vulkan

RxGhost wrote:Honestly, I don't think the Necrons can get much better; I'd put the whole army up as underpriced at this point.

Are you kidding me? I just played a 2000 point apoc game where I had 12 models on my side. Granted, 250 points was for a formation but still...for what they are and how horrible their CC options are, they're in dire need of an overhaul or price reduction on many if not all units.

Just compare a termy to a pariah or wraith and see who'd win out.
Compare a warrior to a standard marine and see who is better.

I could go on and on...

remember when only Necrons had 3+ invulnerables, and everyone else (especially marine players) screamed cheese and stomped and wailed and gnashed their teeth?

Guess who can spam 2+ 3++ now..

I don't hear many of them complaining...

Ascalam wrote:remember when only Necrons had 3+ invulnerables, and everyone else (especially marine players) screamed cheese and stomped and wailed and gnashed their teeth?

Guess who can spam 2+ 3++ now..

I don't hear many of them complaining...

very true. i doubt that they will flag their own armies as unfair lol.

I think RxGhost may have been sarcastic there. Though for what the Nightbringer can do, 360 pts is a steal

Honestly, an awful lot of the IG codex feels undercosted. Vets loaded with specials in a Chimera is an *awful* lot of firepower for 150 points or so...especially for a scoring unit.

The entire GK codex, basic Grey knights all come with power weapons that can cause instant death or increase their strength +1, psykers and daemons are at I1 when assaulted by them, any psychic power used against them are cast at -1 leadership for the psychic power, they can deep strike, all are equipped with storm bolters and if the unit suffers perils of the warp only one model is effected. All of this for only 4 points more per model than a regular space marine. I bet the only armies that you will see make the finals in ard boys will be Grey Knights and IG, because GW seems to have lost the capacity to mathematically rationalize what overpowered is. I think that whoever wrote the recent codexes either doesn't think anyone plays anymore and just buys models to paint because they look neat or used a dart board while on the edge of an alcohol induced coma to price the units to avoid actual research to balance the game.

I Feel that Talos and Furioso Dreadnought are both undercost for what they can do.

Underpriced things:

Doom of Malan'tai
Ork boyz
Gargoyles
Blood Angel Predators
Vendetta
Long Fangs
Almost all Guard tanks

Picking a #1 is pretty hard.


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Oh yeah, Killa Kans too. The upgrades are not overly cheap but the model itself.

Necrons are pretty under pointed for what they can do. plus some ablities need to be clearified like wether bing hit by a double str hit will instantly kill one permenantly. but i have a feeling that the grey knights will be very problematic

bucheonman wrote:
Almost all Guard tanks

Aside from the Vendetta, possibly the Chimera and maybe the Manticore or Hydra, what's wrong with the others? The Hellhound/Devil Dog/Banewolf aren't exactly cheap for what they do, the LRBT's generally aren't seen as power units and are rather expensive, especially after you start loading them with lots of guns, and the Medusa/Bassy/Griffon/Collossus aren't exactly usually seen as OP units either.

'Necrons are pretty under pointed for what they can do. plus some ablities need to be clearified like wether bing hit by a double str hit will instantly kill one permenantly. but i have a feeling that the grey knights will be very problematic '

By and large this is pretty inaccurate these days. They USED to be able to blow vehicles to hades with gauss, back an edition. Under 5th they can't do that anymore,as glances can't directly destoy vehicles (unless open-topped (and open topped is always AV 10 anyway, pretty much (couple of exceptions )

Basically necron warriors are more expensive marines with bolters that can autowound a T 7 or 8 creature on a 6 (still gets its armour save) and there are very very few T 7 or 8 critters out there. Anything less tough you'd be wounding anyway. They can glance vehicles to death, eventually.

Tradeoff is that they have no squad sergeants, no Powerweapons (barrring lords), no heavy weapon support in the units, 1 attack each and I 2. They can be swept effortlessly by most armies in CC.

They can come back from the dead, I grant you, but FNP is about on par, and everyone's poodle has that these days.

Added to that if you kill 75% of the army (ignoring the tanks and Ctan and similar good stuff) you win regardless.

Necrons have a few good things, and generally pay a mint for them, often at odd points values that make listbuilding frustrating (41 pts?? ) with next to no options.

There are a couple of units that may be undercosted (monolith is fairly reasonable for example) and a whole codex full of overcosted and useless.


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To clarify the rules query btw :0)

Necrons die without WBB if they're killed by a ranged weapon with strength double their toughness or a cc weapon that ignores armour saves. Ressurection Orb allows WBB even under these conditions to units within 6'' of the orb.

Polonius wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Every space marine...

Even Dark Angels Company veterans?

Even Termies(40pts a model)

No offense Ascalam, but it would appear to me that you have actually never played against necrons.

I'm not gonna' spend a lot of time debating the flawed points in your previous statement, but:

Necrons Warriors cost 2 points more than a space marine. TWO. They have a gun that auto glances any vehicle in the game, and every trooper is equipped with it. They have marine stats, marine armor, Ld 10 AND THEY GET BACK UP WHEN YOU KILL THEM. Two points. Oh, they have Init 2, sorry.

Also...

"They can be swept effortlessly by most armies in CC."

...seriously, that HAS to be a joke, you cannot honestly be so foolish as to believe this statement.

You don't 'glance vehicles to death' you shut them down. Getting a single glance result on any vehicle usually means, at the very least, it can't shoot at you. On a standard roll (d6-2) half the results you will get will lock a vehicle down and prevent it from firing at you.

I don't know if Mephiston is actually undercosted but...

I look at his profile and abilities for 250 points.

Then I look at Ahriman in the Chaos Book for 250 points.

And seriously question if the people writing these books communicate.

Mephiston arguably casts better, Mephiston has two more strength and toughness, two more wounds, better armour save, better initiative and weapon skill and throws in a plasma pistol as well.

What does Ahriman get? 4+ invulnerable. Aw yeah.

RxGhost wrote:
Necrons Warriors cost 2 points more than a space marine. TWO. They have a gun that auto glances any vehicle in the game, and every trooper is equipped with it. They have marine stats, marine armor, Ld 10 AND THEY GET BACK UP WHEN YOU KILL THEM. Two points. Oh, they have Init 2, sorry.

And they're slow without monolith support, they have no access to a transport for defense, and phase out. Not to mention that they have no access to heavy or special weaponry (because no one takes Marines for their statline or bolters).

Also...

"They can be swept effortlessly by most armies in CC."

...seriously, that HAS to be a joke, you cannot honestly be so foolish as to believe this statement.

It's not foolish. They are. No stubborn or fearless, no way of winning in close combat, and any unit even slightly inclined towards close combat will tear them to shreds and sweep them.

You don't 'glance vehicles to death' you shut them down. Getting a single glance result on any vehicle usually means, at the very least, it can't shoot at you. On a standard roll (d6-2) half the results you will get will lock a vehicle down and prevent it from firing at you.

Space Marine player puts a squad in a land raider, and then camps on an objective.

What do you do?

Oh, and phase out.

I wouldn't say Ork boyz are under cost, since +6 save combined with int 2 means they die in droves before they get to actual hit back.

Fenix wrote:The entire GK codex, basic Grey knights all come with power weapons that can cause instant death or increase their strength +1, psykers and daemons are at I1 when assaulted by them, any psychic power used against them are cast at -1 leadership for the psychic power, they can deep strike, all are equipped with storm bolters and if the unit suffers perils of the warp only one model is effected. All of this for only 4 points more per model than a regular space marine. I bet the only armies that you will see make the finals in ard boys will be Grey Knights and IG, because GW seems to have lost the capacity to mathematically rationalize what overpowered is. I think that whoever wrote the recent codexes either doesn't think anyone plays anymore and just buys models to paint because they look neat or used a dart board while on the edge of an alcohol induced coma to price the units to avoid actual research to balance the game.

Isn't it past your bed time, chicken little?

RxGhost wrote:No offense Ascalam, but it would appear to me that you have actually never played against necrons.

I'm not gonna' spend a lot of time debating the flawed points in your previous statement, but:

Necrons Warriors cost 2 points more than a space marine. TWO. They have a gun that auto glances any vehicle in the game, and every trooper is equipped with it. They have marine stats, marine armor, Ld 10 AND THEY GET BACK UP WHEN YOU KILL THEM. Two points. Oh, they have Init 2, sorry.

Also...

"They can be swept effortlessly by most armies in CC."

...seriously, that HAS to be a joke, you cannot honestly be so foolish as to believe this statement.

You don't 'glance vehicles to death' you shut them down. Getting a single glance result on any vehicle usually means, at the very least, it can't shoot at you. On a standard roll (d6-2) half the results you will get will lock a vehicle down and prevent it from firing at you.

Methinks someone is still playing 4th edition. Necrons are considered one of (if not the) weakest armies in 40k right now.

I agree with most of this thread...

Except Long Fangs...

AvatarForm wrote:I agree with most of this thread...

Except Long Fangs...

Long fangs aren't undercosted? How so?

Maybe I'm just the only one who thinks so, but Fire Dragons are undercosted! Seriously, 16 points for a Squad of dudes that all have melta guns. Combine them with the fairness of a wave serpent and you can basically count on a dead vehicle for each squad of Fire Dragons.

...that's kind of the point of taking them in the first place...

Justus wrote:Maybe I'm just the only one who thinks so, but Fire Dragons are undercosted! Seriously, 16 points for a Squad of dudes that all have melta guns. Combine them with the fairness of a wave serpent and you can basically count on a dead vehicle for each squad of Fire Dragons.

How much is the squad, and how much is the vehicle they slagged?

Unless it's a land raider, usually the Dragons out point anything they kill.

Barebones Fragon unit in a Serpent costs 180pts (Serpent includes the least expensive necessary upgrade).

Vaktathi wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:I agree with most of this thread...

Except Long Fangs...

Long fangs aren't undercosted? How so?

Long Fangs with rockets are priced almost right - the actual blokes should maybe be 16pts to account for splitting fire but 140 for 5 rockets is ok. It's SM Devvies which are overpriced rather than Long Fangs being horrendously underpriced though. BA ones which come in at 130 for 4 rockets rather than 150 are pretty useful but not rage-inducing like Long Fangs.

Hydras are almost definitely undercosted - 75pts for what you get is insane. 85 or 90 would probably set them about right.

It's worth pointing out that Long Fangs also have LD9 across the board, counterattack, and acute sense.

Which means that not only are they a well priced small shooting unit, they also have built in buffs against three common concerns of static shooty units (LD tests near a board edge, small fast assault units, and night fight.)

Corrode wrote:
Long Fangs with rockets are priced almost right - the actual blokes should maybe be 16pts to account for splitting fire but 140 for 5 rockets is ok. It's SM Devvies which are overpriced rather than Long Fangs being horrendously underpriced though. BA ones which come in at 130 for 4 rockets rather than 150 are pretty useful but not rage-inducing like Long Fangs.

Long Fangs bring the most heavy weapons per point of almost any unit in the game (and with a higher BS and more survivability than the few units that can bring as many heavy weapons, primarily IG HWS's), in an army of highly effective close combat units and incredibly powerful characters. The Blood Angels Devestators may be *slightly* cheaper for the unit, but have 1 less dude, 1 fewer Heavy Weapon, and can't split fire, which makes all the difference in the world. Not even IG, the pre-eminent shooting army of this game, can pack such formidable firepower into 140pts with 5 ML's. Add to this they get Acute Senses, Counterattack and high Ld ATSKNF and they've got everything one would want in such a unit as Polonius pointed out.

15 BS4 split fire krak missiles for 420pts is more than a wee bit cheap.

Vaktathi wrote:
Not even IG, the pre-eminent shooting army of this game, can pack such formidable firepower into 140pts with 5 ML's.

True, they instead get 3 TL lascannons at 130 points

They do, but those three lascannons are far easier to silence than the five missile launchers.

They're both great units, to be sure, but you have to look at the whole board.

I recently read about dreadknight ("please, not again!") and thoguht:

naked dreadknight = 130 Pts.
naked carnifex = 160 Pts.

Please confirm or correct, they are nowhere close to similar:

different WS, BS and initiative set
different self-control (synapse)
different armor (+invul)
different shooting capability (naked)
different deployment possibilities (remember, naked)

DIFFERENT ARMY OVERALL FOR THEM TO COMBINE WITH.

This has been noted before, but do writers read each other's codices?

RxGhost wrote:No offense Ascalam, but it would appear to me that you have actually never played against necrons.

I'm not gonna' spend a lot of time debating the flawed points in your previous statement, but:

Necrons Warriors cost 2 points more than a space marine. TWO. They have a gun that auto glances any vehicle in the game, and every trooper is equipped with it. They have marine stats, marine armor, Ld 10 AND THEY GET BACK UP WHEN YOU KILL THEM. Two points. Oh, they have Init 2, sorry.

Also...

"They can be swept effortlessly by most armies in CC."

...seriously, that HAS to be a joke, you cannot honestly be so foolish as to believe this statement.

You don't 'glance vehicles to death' you shut them down. Getting a single glance result on any vehicle usually means, at the very least, it can't shoot at you. On a standard roll (d6-2) half the results you will get will lock a vehicle down and prevent it from firing at you.

And marines get frag grenades, can't be swept, automatically regroup (I believe regardless of squad size), get a bolt pistol AND a CCW for an extra attack in melee...Oh, and they can spend some points to get heavy weapons and power weapons in every squad. We won't get into the differences of some of the chapters either, such as black templar.

Now I play against some variety of marine on a regular basis (occasionally eldar) and against my buddy and his black templar we are about 50/50 on win/loss. Against vanilla marines and chaos though I haven't lost yet. But those two guys don't have a lot of vehicles for their armies so it's tough for them.


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bok_choy17 wrote:

Polonius wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Every space marine...

Even Dark Angels Company veterans?

Even Termies(40pts a model)

Yes, even termies.

Nitros14 wrote:I don't know if Mephiston is actually undercosted but...

I look at his profile and abilities for 250 points.

Then I look at Ahriman in the Chaos Book for 250 points.

And seriously question if the people writing these books communicate.

Mephiston arguably casts better, Mephiston has two more strength and toughness, two more wounds, better armour save, better initiative and weapon skill and throws in a plasma pistol as well.

What does Ahriman get? 4+ invulnerable. Aw yeah.

Well, he gets Spawn, Spawn, Spawn each turn, or Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, etc.

Ahriman will impact the outcome of a game more than Mephiston because he does it from so much further away. Mephiston is only good at killing one thing. He isn't even good at killing a regular squad of Tac Marines (w/ Power Fist).

Ahriman, on the other hand, is an entire unit's worth of good shooting, and no slouch once assault comes either.

'No offense Ascalam, but it would appear to me that you have actually never played against necrons.
'

I play with them, and have been since 3rd ed, when they were good.

Have you since 5th broke, or against them?

The rest of my points have been covered by other posters who have actual experience playing them in 5th.

I feel like as a whole the IG codex is undercosted. 130 for the Vendetta, 75 for the Hydra, would it be crazy to suggest perhaps even the humble Guardsman is too cheap? Or at least the Veterans are.

Of course maybe I think this since I play Necrons and my main opponent is IG so everything seems so OP against me

I'm also curious to see how the Inq henchmen turn out.

asimo77 wrote:I feel like as a whole the IG codex is undercosted. 130 for the Vendetta, 75 for the Hydra, would it be crazy to suggest perhaps even the humble Guardsman is too cheap? Or at least the Veterans are.

Of course maybe I think this since I play Necrons and my main opponent is IG so everything seems so OP against me

I'm also curious to see how the Inq henchmen turn out.

It's very difficult to see basic Guardsmen as too cheap, especially relative to other similar cost units like Ork Boyz. Veterans likewise on their own its hard to see them as undercosted, they're only good units when mechanized, and the only time they aren't suicide units is when they're taken with a chimera. Vets without a transport are awful units, they require one to be effective, so one really needs to be factored into their cost as well.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
True, they instead get 3 TL lascannons at 130 points

While true, in terms of raw firepower and ability to avoid overkill shots, the Long Fangs are significantly better in those regards. I won't going to argue that the Vendetta isn't undercosted, but Long Fangs aren't really any better.

Vaktathi wrote:

asimo77 wrote:I feel like as a whole the IG codex is undercosted. 130 for the Vendetta, 75 for the Hydra, would it be crazy to suggest perhaps even the humble Guardsman is too cheap? Or at least the Veterans are.

Of course maybe I think this since I play Necrons and my main opponent is IG so everything seems so OP against me

I'm also curious to see how the Inq henchmen turn out.

It's very difficult to see basic Guardsmen as too cheap, especially relative to other similar cost units like Ork Boyz. Veterans likewise on their own its hard to see them as undercosted, they're only good units when mechanized, and the only time they aren't suicide units is when they're taken with a chimera. Vets without a transport are awful units, they require one to be effective, so one really needs to be factored into their cost as well.

True, but when their three transport options include the chimera, valk, and vendetta... you start to see a pattern.

Either way, Mechanized melta vets are undercosted by at least a bit, right? i dont' know if it's due to the vets or the Chimera, but they are.

Whirlwinds.. 85pts.. for the damage it can do, that's cheap.... if it hits.

Vaktathi wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:I agree with most of this thread...

Except Long Fangs...

Long fangs aren't undercosted? How so?

Oh, cos now that I play them I finally benefit from some of the coolest units in the game.

before I played Eldar and it took real skill and list-building to win a local tourney against 99% space marines.

Now I can take a unit of Long Fangs instead of a predator and smile as I rip my opponent apart in both shooting and h2h.

I think the reason I tend to believe lots of IG stuff is overcosted is because my brother's IG routinely kicks my ass :(

DarknessEternal wrote:Well, he gets Spawn, Spawn, Spawn each turn, or Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, etc.

Ahriman will impact the outcome of a game more than Mephiston because he does it from so much further away. Mephiston is only good at killing one thing. He isn't even good at killing a regular squad of Tac Marines (w/ Power Fist).

Ahriman, on the other hand, is an entire unit's worth of good shooting, and no slouch once assault comes either.

The Chaos Marine FAQ unfortunately states Ahriman can't bolt, bolt, bolt but instead has to do a rainbow of different ranged powers which is much less effective.

And Spawn has a low chance to work and is melee range.

RxGhost wrote:Belial of the Dark Angels is stupid undercosted, not even taking into account his special rules.

Really? Cause he is only a captain in terminator armor? Thats normally 140pts... Belial is only 130. Sure his ability to switch out gear is nice but I'm not sure he deserves a spot on this list.

Killa Kans on the other hand... YES

I run 9 kans for 405 pts... 35pts base cost for a walker...

A not so great walker, but spamming them is always good I love Kanz.

And they can actually shoot straight (well, straighter than orks)

Polonius wrote:

True, but when their three transport options include the chimera, valk, and vendetta... you start to see a pattern.

Either way, Mechanized melta vets are undercosted by at least a bit, right? i dont' know if it's due to the vets or the Chimera, but they are.

It's a case where either unit without the other is fine or even not particularly good, and when paired with other units aren't an issue, but when taken together synergize exceedingly well. Vets in Valks aren't usually too much of an issue, the squad tends to become a suicide unit and the Valk isn't putting out crazy insane firepower, I personally have find that 6 units of vets in 6 Valks isn't as scary as say, 3 units of Fire Dragons and 3 units of Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents.The Vendetta clearly is undercosted however in pretty much any capacity.

As to the vets in Chimeras, on one hand I feel they may be too effective, but on the other hand they don't have the survivability of many other mechanized troops either, once that transport goes the unit is often finished, and generally to make best use of their weapons means putting them where they are most vulnerable.

That said, the book also probably isn't getting an update before 2015, so we'll see what happens in the meantime

3 units of Fire Dragons and 3 units of Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents

Just did the maths and these units completely barebones run at a total of 1020pts, that's without exarches or exarch powers, no upgrades, minimum model count and the cheapest serpent weapon which is a TL shuriken cannon.

If we make them more effective by giving the serpents TL MLs (their usual weapons) and spirit stones and also giving the Avengers a dual catapult exarch with bladestorm we now run at a total of 1296pts.

and 6 units of meltavets in 6 barebones valks is 1200pts. Roughly similar. If we give the Valks rocket pods, then they become 1380pts, and those Valkyries are Squadroned, making them significantly easier to concentrate fire on and destroy, as well as limiting their options for maneuver and shooting.

Daemon Princes are cheap for what they bring. Especially compared to Chaos Lords/Sorcerers built to get the same results.

Kharn is also light on a point budget. Most players would pick him even if he was 180 points. If he had EW like in 3.5, I'd pick him for 200.

Vulkan is also a neat package for his points. Amazing saves, S6 re-rolling power weapon, heavy flamer and army-wide twin-linking of the very best SM weapons in any list? He should be priced at Marneus levels, honestly.

The Hydra is amazingly cheap for its killyness.

The new Rifledreads for Grey Knights have my friends who play other SM chapters looking at their own dreads like they were pot-smoking, disappointing children.

Long Fangs. Holy crap, Long Fangs. Between their rules and their weapon options, I wonder if their pricing wasn't a typo that stuck.

Marbo. There's really no reason NOT to take him, and it's easy to trim even a crowded list to make the points for him.

The Eldar Avatar of Khaine is also not that expensive. Its only real drawback is not keeping up with his own army, movement-wise.

More of an item on a character than the actual character its self.

But a necron lord with a warscythe is pretty damn nasty.
T5 and ignores all saves.
and the scythe comes in at a massive ..... 10 points.



Dont really want to just C+P what everyone else is saying, so for a second one ill go with:

Bloodcrushers.
Dont seem all that nasty, but 40 points for a 2W model thats S5, with a power weapon, decent attacks, 3+/5++
The list goes on.
Can even play wound bouncing with them.

Sephyr wrote:

Kharn is also light on a point budget. Most players would pick him even if he was 180 points. If he had EW like in 3.5, I'd pick him for 200.

As much as I like Kharn the Betrayer, I don't think I've ever seen him fielded outside of Apocalypse games, and isn't exactly known as being a power unit by any means. It's hard to see him as being an undercosted unit.

To be fair you give up a nice piece of wargear to upgrade to the scythe (Staff of light- and AP 3 Assualt 3, S 5? gun) so 10 Pts isnn't all that unreasonable, especially since the lord will either be swinging simultaneously or last vs MEQ with his I of 4, and he's also the only guy in the list who'll ever get to swing it before dying.

(Pariahs are named that for a reason: No-one wants to play with them )

If the army had options for Powerfist or Powerswords in the units (like marines, say..) i'd be good with upping the price, but as the only way to ignore armour in the army is warscythes or Ctan i think the price is ok

Agreed on the bloodcrushers: i've been steamrollered by them before

Death Company when compared to Khorne Berzerkers.

21pts Khorne Berzerkers

Furious Charge
Fearless?
WS5
2 Attacks

20pts DC

Furious Charge
FNP
Rage
WS5
Loads of options
30 in a squad
Fearless
Lemartes
2 Attacks
Jump Packs

Agreed on the bloodcrushers: i've been steamrollered by them before

Ive got into the bad habbit at the moment of running 3 units of 5 (all 3 upgrades)
Then 2 heralds with a few bits on juggers and skully on a jugger.

throw a character into each unit and they really do burn through things.




also, skulltaker really should be mentioned here.
He costs barely anything.
On a jugger he gets nastier, or for even cheaper, you can boost his stats even more in a chariot.
4+ instant death? sounds good to me, but not to you.



Edit: Phantom: Keep in mind mate that the jump packs ruin them as undercosted
You pay nearly as much for the jump pack as you do for another DC model.

Staff of Light is already a power weapon so you're just going from denying most saves to denying all saves. And of course the ten points are only part of the cost. You give up one of your few Ap3 shooting attacks to get it.

So, how many other weapons in basic 40k (no apoc) ignore inv saves?

A lot of WH stuff I think, like their version of Psybolt ammunition.

Jackal wrote:So, how many other weapons in basic 40k (no apoc) ignore inv saves?

A lot of the Daemonhunter stuff does, but won't once GK's come out (though they'll generally be higher strength and with rending as well now)

Daemon Princes are cheap for what they bring. Especially compared to Chaos Lords/Sorcerers built to get the same results.

Daemon Princes aren't really cheap, it's more that you're comparing them to the overcosted Chaos Lord/Sorcerer.

Thats not my question though.
What in 40k ignores inv saves? (aswell as normal saves)



My point is, such a thing is very rare.
Normally something like that stacks on alot of points, bu in this case you swap out a weapon and pay 10 points.

Next cheapest version comes from a C'tan

(we will ignore pariah's at this point since they are gak)

However, pariah's aint all bad now.
Just need the GK bandwagon to grow before i run a unit of them.
Since they are all psykers, the pariah's special rules actually get a use for once.

Ya, but the lord is base 100 points which is far greater than other HQ choices.

Kevin949 wrote:Ya, but the lord is base 100 points which is far greater than other HQ choices.

SM captain is 100 pts naked, so is a librarian, chaplains are more I think. Well BA reclusiarchs are more. So I don't think they're too expensive.

EmilCrane wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Ya, but the lord is base 100 points which is far greater than other HQ choices.

SM captain is 100 pts naked, so is a librarian, chaplains are more I think. Well BA reclusiarchs are more. So I don't think they're too expensive.

Didn't say they were too expensive or that there wasn't anything as expensive as the lord. Just pointing out that the lord was 100 points base for a mediocre HQ choice (but in our case, the ONLY HQ choice that isn't a C'Tan).

Comparing HQ choices? Dont you think that the warboss is underpriced at 90pts with a power claw & eavy armour
ws bs s t w i a ld sv
5 2 5 5 3 4 4 9 4+

sure his armour sucks but he makes up for that with strength 10 attacks!

phantommaster wrote:Death Company when compared to Khorne Berzerkers.

20pts DC

Furious Charge
FNP
Rage
WS5
Loads of options
30 in a squad
Fearless
Lemartes
2 Attacks
Jump Packs

You forgot relentless.

Because when I think steady, precise gunfire, I think half-crazed, foaming murderous nutjobs!

taylor048 wrote:Comparing HQ choices? Dont you think that the warboss is underpriced at 90pts with a power claw & eavy armour
ws bs s t w i a ld sv
5 2 5 5 3 4 4 9 4+

sure his armour sucks but he makes up for that with strength 10 attacks!

I'm not sure I'd call him undercosted. He has no invulnerable save and no EW, and relatively low LD for an HQ.

He's great for what he does, but there are a lot of ways to deal with a warboss...

Sephyr wrote:

phantommaster wrote:Death Company when compared to Khorne Berzerkers.

20pts DC

Furious Charge
FNP
Rage
WS5
Loads of options
30 in a squad
Fearless
Lemartes
2 Attacks
Jump Packs

You forgot relentless.

Because when I think steady, precise gunfire, I think half-crazed, foaming murderous nutjobs!

Personally, I think that berserkers being scoring units without rage is a pretty big advantage! Agree that there has been some major creep in assault units between the two codexes though.

phantommaster wrote:Death Company when compared to Khorne Berzerkers.

21pts Khorne Berzerkers

Furious Charge
Fearless?
WS5
2 Attacks

20pts DC

Furious Charge
FNP
Rage
WS5
Loads of options
30 in a squad
Fearless
Lemartes
2 Attacks
Jump Packs

But at 20 points it's more like,

FNP and Rage vs Scoring.

Why would anyone take 30. 600 points for 30 no-scoring guys on foot that rage?

I wouldn't say DC are undercosted at all. Their upgrades are fairly expensive, and the rage rule is a huge penalty.

Agreed that Rage is a big setback, but still, whatever you drive them towards is going to eat it in the assault turn. And since you can get them in a LR or a Stormraven, you can take them to very sensitive areas.

I'm not saying they are a -great- unit, but they are good at clearing. And if you are facing hordes, orks, nids or just playing in a map with objectives that are close together, odds are they'll connect with something worth killing.

As for them being non-scroing, it's not really a huge deal. Neither are Banshees, Incubi or Killa Kans, but they'll remove the enemy's scoring units quite good and leave room for a small unit of troops to set up their camp.

Oblits. Long Fangs. Plague Marines. Noise Marines. Gray Hunters. Most Imperial Vehicles, especially Rhinos, Vendettas, Hydras and Chimeras.

Rhino and Razorback

BuFFo wrote:Oblits. Long Fangs. Plague Marines. Noise Marines. Gray Hunters. Most Imperial Vehicles, especially Rhinos, Vendettas, Hydras and Chimeras.

Noise Marines are, if anything, overpriced. You pay 5pts more than a standard CSM for +1 I and Fearless, to get a sonic blaster you have to pay 10pts more than a CSM and it then becomes the most pricey cult troop by 2pts. You also have to shell out in excees of 30pts for a blastmaster.

Avatar 720 wrote:

BuFFo wrote:Oblits. Long Fangs. Plague Marines. Noise Marines. Gray Hunters. Most Imperial Vehicles, especially Rhinos, Vendettas, Hydras and Chimeras.

Noise Marines are, if anything, overpriced. You pay 5pts more than a standard CSM for +1 I and Fearless, to get a sonic blaster you have to pay 10pts more than a CSM and it then becomes the most pricey cult troop by 2pts. You also have to shell out in excees of 30pts for a blastmaster.

I was about to post this too, NM are terribly overpriced.

I would pay more for a higher initiative on my necrons.

BuFFo wrote:Oblits. Long Fangs. Plague Marines. Noise Marines. Gray Hunters. Most Imperial Vehicles, especially Rhinos, Vendettas, Hydras and Chimeras.

Noise Marines are underpriced? That's news to me.

I also wouldn't say "most" Imperial Vehicles are underpriced. Some are yes, but I just don't see the Valk as being all that undercosted (the Vendetta yes) especially considering its T3 5+sv cargo.

Out of the IG book one might make a case for the Chimera, Hydra, and Manticore. The vendetta I don't think anyone will question, it's only really appropriately priced if one is taking them in full squadrons of 3. But it's hard to see the Leman Russ tanks, Artillery, Deathstrike, Hellhound & variants, and sentinels really being undercosted at all. Likewise I don't think there's a good case for Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwinds, Land Raiders or Land Speeders, or half the Razorback Variants, as being undercosted.

I'm surprised only one person said Gargoyles.

As cheap as a Hormagaunt, gains Blinding Venom which is extremely good (it's nearly old rending, just doesn't ignore saves) and wings. Biomorph options are 1 point each. You can have an incredibly powerful unit for a very small cost investment. Quite simply, they're nasty.

-Loki- wrote:I'm surprised only one person said Gargoyles.

As cheap as a Hormagaunt, gains Blinding Venom which is extremely good (it's nearly old rending, just doesn't ignore saves) and wings. Biomorph options are 1 point each. You can have an incredibly powerful unit for a very small cost investment. Quite simply, they're nasty.

The problem is that they can't hold objectives and need Synapse babysitting since their IB is Lurk and not Feed. Very good, but because of those two things it's hard to see them as undercosted.

Synapse babysitting isn't an issue, since you should have synapse around anyway. Holding objectives, well, most of the units people have listed can't do it either.

BuFFo wrote:Oblits. Long Fangs. Plague Marines. Noise Marines. Gray Hunters. Most Imperial Vehicles, especially Rhinos, Vendettas, Hydras and Chimeras.

Agreed on most, but NOise Marines?? They are the cost of Grey Knights and that's before they let you pay at least 5 points more each for the very thing that makes them different froma gang of vanilla CSM.

In fact, even if you just take a single sonic blaster each, it makes them the most expensive troop choice, 4 points above Berserkers and 2 above Plagues. The Blastmaster might be the most expensive small blast in game currently.

The Defiler,only 150.
pretty cheap,shame the model is 50 euro.

Anything in the Guard codex, really...

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:Anything in the Guard codex, really...

Not Everything. The Punisher and the whole Elite section certainly isn't.

Avatar 720 wrote:

3 units of Fire Dragons and 3 units of Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents

Just did the maths and these units completely barebones run at a total of 1020pts, that's without exarches or exarch powers, no upgrades, minimum model count and the cheapest serpent weapon which is a TL shuriken cannon.

If we make them more effective by giving the serpents TL MLs (their usual weapons) and spirit stones and also giving the Avengers a dual catapult exarch with bladestorm we now run at a total of 1296pts.

Who said Eldar were undercosted?

I played them for the last 2 years... very tricksy building lists under 2000pts, simply due to the nature of the force and opponents. Eldar are one force that cannot afford losses.

Luke_Prowler wrote:

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:Anything in the Guard codex, really...

Not Everything. The Punisher and the whole Elite section certainly isn't.

Marbo disagrees with you. 105 points for a more accurate meltacide which loses one melta but can fire next turn too is kinda good too...

Pre-FAQ Doom of Malan'Tai.

Remember the many lulz to be had when that 90 pt cheeseball hit the table?

Plague Marines

Defensive grenades, FNP,a 3+ save, T5, bolters, Fearless

22 points each! Best unit in the game, IMO. Except possibly grey hunters (5 missiles >;D)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Echoing Gargoyles as well. Put a unit of Shrikes or Raveners around them and you're good to go. They're flying termagants, for gaks sake! The one down side to foot slogging gaunts, gone!

Samus_aran115 wrote:Plague Marines

Defensive grenades, FNP,a 3+ save, T5, bolters, Fearless

22 points each! Best unit in the game, IMO. Except possibly grey hunters (5 missiles >;D)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Echoing Gargoyles as well. Put a unit of Shrikes or Raveners around them and you're good to go. They're flying termagants, for gaks sake! The one down side to foot slogging gaunts, gone!

Raveners are not synapse, and Shrikes are incredibly expensive and fragile.

Gargoyles are good, but you have to go out of your way to make them work. You end up spending more points on an overcosted unit just to bring that slightly undercosted unit to the table.

Long Fangs
Grey Hunters
Chimeras
IG Vet Squads
Vendettas
Hydras
PAGK (Includes Purifiers, Purgation Squads)

AvatarForm wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

3 units of Fire Dragons and 3 units of Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents

Just did the maths and these units completely barebones run at a total of 1020pts, that's without exarches or exarch powers, no upgrades, minimum model count and the cheapest serpent weapon which is a TL shuriken cannon.

If we make them more effective by giving the serpents TL MLs (their usual weapons) and spirit stones and also giving the Avengers a dual catapult exarch with bladestorm we now run at a total of 1296pts.

Who said Eldar were undercosted?

Justus wrote:Maybe I'm just the only one who thinks so, but Fire Dragons are undercosted! Seriously, 16 points for a Squad of dudes that all have melta guns. Combine them with the fairness of a wave serpent and you can basically count on a dead vehicle for each squad of Fire Dragons.

Fafnir wrote:...that's kind of the point of taking them in the first place...

Polonius wrote:

Justus wrote:Maybe I'm just the only one who thinks so, but Fire Dragons are undercosted! Seriously, 16 points for a Squad of dudes that all have melta guns. Combine them with the fairness of a wave serpent and you can basically count on a dead vehicle for each squad of Fire Dragons.

How much is the squad, and how much is the vehicle they slagged?

Unless it's a land raider, usually the Dragons out point anything they kill.

Avatar 720 wrote:Barebones Fragon unit in a Serpent costs 180pts (Serpent includes the least expensive necessary upgrade).

I have in fact tried to defend Eldar so far, you're the one who interpretted my maths as trying to prove them undercosted; the final total of those Eldar was more than 6 meltavet squads in 6 barebones Valks by almost 100pts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Plague Marines

Defensive grenades, FNP,a 3+ save, T5, bolters, Fearless

22 points each! Best unit in the game, IMO. Except possibly grey hunters (5 missiles >;D)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Echoing Gargoyles as well. Put a unit of Shrikes or Raveners around them and you're good to go. They're flying termagants, for gaks sake! The one down side to foot slogging gaunts, gone!

23pts each actually. They are also NOT T5, this is a huge misconception which adds to the whole "OMFG THEY'RE OVERPOWERED!!!" argument. They are in fact T4(5), which is a world of difference, as they can be instagibbed by S8; so battlecannons crush them as easily as any other marine, and krak missiles are also effective (since they will cause ID, no FNP is allowed, and since they're AP3 they don't get their armour save either).

Plague marines are a nice unit, but they're not as overpowered as people make them out to be.

AvatarForm wrote:

Who said Eldar were undercosted?

I played them for the last 2 years... very tricksy building lists under 2000pts, simply due to the nature of the force and opponents. Eldar are one force that cannot afford losses.

Nobody said they were, it was a comparison to an IG Valkyrie/Veteran list that ran roughly the same amount of points but less capable.

Avatar 720 wrote:

23pts each actually. They are also NOT T5, this is a huge misconception which adds to the whole "OMFG THEY'RE OVERPOWERED!!!" argument. They are in fact T4(5), which is a world of difference, as they can be instagibbed by S8; so battlecannons crush them as easily as any other marine, and krak missiles are also effective (since they will cause ID, no FNP is allowed, and since they're AP3 they don't get their armour save either).

Plague marines are a nice unit, but they're not as overpowered as people make them out to be.

Since they have only 1 wound, the Insta-death is quite immaterial. S7 weapons kill them just as dead.

But I agree they are not quite that hot as people say. They have lower Initiative, and when youe enemy tosses Lightning claws at you, trust me, it makes a BIG difference.

TH/SS Assault Termies.

Griever wrote:Gargoyles are good, but you have to go out of your way to make them work. You end up spending more points on an overcosted unit just to bring that slightly undercosted unit to the table.

They don't need a fast synapse unit to keep up with them. Due to their unit footprint, they can move fast and stay in foot slogging synapse range very easily. All they need is some synapse - which is covered by all HQ (including the cheap Tyranid Prime) and Warriors in troops, which can be taken for under 100 points. Which is the same requirement of any non troop unit in any other army.

Sephyr wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

23pts each actually. They are also NOT T5, this is a huge misconception which adds to the whole "OMFG THEY'RE OVERPOWERED!!!" argument. They are in fact T4(5), which is a world of difference, as they can be instagibbed by S8; so battlecannons crush them as easily as any other marine, and krak missiles are also effective (since they will cause ID, no FNP is allowed, and since they're AP3 they don't get their armour save either).

Plague marines are a nice unit, but they're not as overpowered as people make them out to be.

Since they have only 1 wound, the Insta-death is quite immaterial. S7 weapons kill them just as dead.

But I agree they are not quite that hot as people say. They have lower Initiative, and when youe enemy tosses Lightning claws at you, trust me, it makes a BIG difference.

But S7 weapons, unless it's an AP2 weapon, wont ignore their FnP save. That's the major difference, and one of the main perks for PMs.

Sephyr wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

23pts each actually. They are also NOT T5, this is a huge misconception which adds to the whole "OMFG THEY'RE OVERPOWERED!!!" argument. They are in fact T4(5), which is a world of difference, as they can be instagibbed by S8; so battlecannons crush them as easily as any other marine, and krak missiles are also effective (since they will cause ID, no FNP is allowed, and since they're AP3 they don't get their armour save either).

Plague marines are a nice unit, but they're not as overpowered as people make them out to be.

Since they have only 1 wound, the Insta-death is quite immaterial. S7 weapons kill them just as dead.

But I agree they are not quite that hot as people say. They have lower Initiative, and when youe enemy tosses Lightning claws at you, trust me, it makes a BIG difference.

The instant death in regards to FNP is actually very material; unless it's AP1/2, a strength 7 or lower weapon will give them FNP, whereas an S8 weapon will not regardless of AP (of course, 4 or worse gives them an armour save, but still no FNP should they fail it).

Avatar 720 wrote:The instant death in regards to FNP is actually very material; unless it's AP1/2, a strength 7 or lower weapon will give them FNP, whereas an S8 weapon will not regardless of AP (of course, 4 or worse gives them an armour save, but still no FNP should they fail it).

That's a good point I missed. Likely becaise in my metagame I face plasma and power weapons far more often than battlecannons.

Vaktathi wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:

Who said Eldar were undercosted?

I played them for the last 2 years... very tricksy building lists under 2000pts, simply due to the nature of the force and opponents. Eldar are one force that cannot afford losses.

Nobody said they were, it was a comparison to an IG Valkyrie/Veteran list that ran roughly the same amount of points but less capable.

Thanks. It was late and I didn feel like reading the Quote-within-a-quote-within-a-quote-within-a-quote-within-a-quote-within-a-quote-within-a-quote-within-a-quote-within-a-quote-within-a-quote-within-a-quote-within-a-quote-within-a-quote-within-a-quote-within-a-quote-within-a-quote-within-a-quote...