Just wandering, does the cleansing flame work for every turn of combat or only the turn of the assault

As i play orks it could suck in a big way!

i believe that it can be used at the start of any close combat round.

sorry orks and nids

Yeah you can use it every turn in every round of combat.

Without sounding like a sore loser but i think in friendly games i will refuse to play them, as i would have to have a very smart build play as tactically as i can all game to even have a chance and all he has to do is stand there and smile.

GW need to even this game out a bit methinks.

What is cleansing flame again? S4 hit to everyone in the combat or something?

Surely the Gk will need to take a Psykic test to be able to use it first?

after passing a psychic test, all enemy models involved in a combat with the purifiers will take a wound on a 4+ with saves allowed.

may not be the exact wording but it works

I believe that it is a hit that wounds on a 4+ for models in b2b, although this is based on what I have read online - I do not remember the codex entry.

This just requires some adaptation to deal with GK for horde armies that used to (lets be honest) have a ridiculously easy time with GK and MEQ.

if it's only in B2b that that wont be so bad will it? Might have to be more tactical when you move your models in for CC though.

I may be comepletely wrong, i've never played a horde army so not sure.

Cleansing Flame happens after Assault moves, piling in etc right before blows are struck, so it's very hard to avoid getting into B2B.

Well b2b is still better than the whole squad lol.

Sounds like the def rolla is gonna be working overtime.

It is every (enemy) model in the assault not only those in b2b.

It can be used every assault phase.

taylor048 wrote:Well b2b is still better than the whole squad lol.

It is EVERY enemy model involved in the combat, not just those in btb and NOT just the unit you are engaged with. If you are in a multiple combat then every enemy gets hit...

That is much better/worse than I had thought then.

Manimal wrote:It is every (enemy) model in the assault not only those in b2b.

It can be used every assault phase.

i thought so but wasn't sure. ok, i am ready for my book to release now. please?
why can't the next 10 days go by faster?!

Does the Cleansing Flame hit models that cant attack in combat because there more than 2" away from another model in combat?

rogersss wrote:Does the Cleansing Flame hit models that cant attack in combat because there more than 2" away from another model in combat?

As they are still in combat, yes, it does.

rogersss wrote:Does the Cleansing Flame hit models that cant attack in combat because there more than 2" away from another model in combat?

ALL enemy models in the same combat. ALL means ALL, it is REALLY simple

Its not B2B it is every model assaulting. It is on one elite choice unit and represents Grey Knights soul defence against Horde armies. Whilst iot means Horde armies no longer auto-win against GK it far from makes Grey Knights great against Horde armies. They are still primarily Elite MEQ killers particularly with their massed power weapon attacks now.

FlingitNow wrote:Its not B2B it is every model assaulting. It is on one elite choice unit and represents Grey Knights soul defence against Horde armies. Whilst iot means Horde armies no longer auto-win against GK it far from makes Grey Knights great against Horde armies. They are still primarily Elite MEQ killers particularly with their massed power weapon attacks now.

'Ard boys would still slow them down just fine.

Purifier get shoot to hell or get my Kans, can't "wound" Kans. Ohh no, I now have to think diffenertlly with my army, Poor Me..... no wait, its new tactics to try . New Codex means new meta, mean new ways to think, means more options, means new challanges, means more fun. Don't fear the new, CRUSH the new.

Well as i have been saying since i learned that GK would be coming out as a stand alone army. THEY WILL BE OVERPOWERED TO ALL SO WHY MAK THEM GW????????

Can anyone post the exact wording of the rule? I was told it was just the turn that the grey knights assault due to some wording about how it occurs after all the grey knights finish their assault moves, which only happens in the first round of combat.

i thought this would be horsegak. however strong the greyknights are, the fact is when they lose models it hurts them far more than another space marine army. just dont assault them and you should be allright, or if you do just make sure you weaken them substantially, you will not have many targets to pick from

Oaka wrote:Can anyone post the exact wording of the rule? I was told it was just the turn that the grey knights assault due to some wording about how it occurs after all the grey knights finish their assault moves, which only happens in the first round of combat.

No - it can be cast in either player's assault phase. The text refers to when it's done, i.e. after everyone has moved into contact, reacted etc. but before blows are struck.

ZXwarrior - quit overreacting. GK are FAR from overpowered.

Oaka - it's been stated by peopel who have seen the codex exactly how it works, however as you dont seem to believe them the wording is:

"This power can be used during the Assault phase in either players turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck. If the psychic test is passed, all enemy models that are part of the same assault suffer one wound on a roll of a 4+"

There is absolutely nothing in there that restricts it to one turn. nothing.

Thanks for the rule, nos, it's not that I didn't believe anyone, I just wanted to know how it was worded.

So, do you roll a D6 for each enemy model, or do you roll once and apply it to every enemy model in the assault?

Oaka wrote:Thanks for the rule, nos, it's not that I didn't believe anyone, I just wanted to know how it was worded.

So, do you roll a D6 for each enemy model, or do you roll once and apply it to every enemy model in the assault?

D6 for everymodel its a bit like everyone getting hit by a 4+ poisoned flamer or template.

D6 for every model, exactly like any other time you roll to wuond.

And they get normal saves.....so it's not as nasty as i originally thought then.

Still a very nice piece of kit though.

It's use is to kill hordes, which often come with a 5+ or worse save. Given you can CS one purifier into two, if both make it to combat that is two instances of it going off, enough to have a fair shot of killing a PK Nob, a commiisar in a blob squad, and similar.

To the above, if 2 Cleansing flames go off:

(Assuming it is a squad of 30 orks)

60 Cleansing flame hits, 30 wounds, 25 Orks die, then attacks strike, in that case, odds are that the GK squad will beat the rest of the squad down in CC, where they will be striking first.

And a (1/2x1/2x5/6=) 5/42 chance of the PK nob getting it - with that many wounds, and especially if the ork player has done the usual trick of placing a wound on the nob earlier to save a boy.

There is absolutely nothing in there that restricts it to one turn. nothing.

Once per game turn yes, not once per player turn. The GK can only cast one psychic power per game turn.

Yes 10 Purifiers split into 2 combat squads will beat down 30 Ork boyz if they charge and most likely without taking a casualty. They'll do much the same to 30 Hormagaunts (depending on whether they've got falchions or Halberds).

It is why so many list for the new GKs include purifiers and why Crowe isn't an IC (otherwise that would be broken as hell).

Guess what they've still got next to no melta certainly not in troops choices (unless you take another special character and totally change how the army looks) and they still lack cheap AT (Psyfleman Dread is the best option). And they will still be out numbered by everyone.

This power helps them against hordes but just like the DE codex they are not going to be top tier straight off the press and will require intelegence to use but will give opponents new challenges and new threats to deal with. Interestingly DE have got a great peice of kit for dealing with GK as the CoM will effect every unit in a GK army and instantly kill any GK vehicles...

People need to stop overreacting to new codexes.

Pyriel- wrote:

There is absolutely nothing in there that restricts it to one turn. nothing.

Once per game turn yes, not once per player turn. The GK can only cast one psychic power per game turn.

No, sorry, thats just wrong.

Turn == player turn unless otherwise specified. The rules for psykers in general (page 50) and for Brotherhood of Psykers (page 21, GK codex) States "one psychic power per turn"

So, tht would be two player Game turn then.

I thought I read that the squad powers are used through the Justicar. If combat squaded, could the squad without the Justicar in it still use the ability?

I only got a brief look at the full codex so I'm not really sure.

That's only if he's in the squad. If not it's a random guy.

Oh OK. He must just grant a higher leadership for test then. Thanks for clarification.

Son 0f Dorn wrote:Oh OK. He must just grant a higher leadership for test then. Thanks for clarification.

Nope they're all Leadership 9, The Knight of the Flame as an identical statline to a normal dude.

So its for fluff purposes then?

Son 0f Dorn wrote:So its for fluff purposes then?

they can master craft weapons that they carry

So you have Justicars in squads because they can make the squads weapons mastercrafted? Without that, I don't really see a purpose (outside of fluff).

Is it not just Master crafting 1 or both of his ( the Justicar ) weapons ?

Justicars can only make their own weapons master crafted not all of the squads. Only paladins can all have mastercrafted.

Son 0f Dorn wrote:So you have Justicars in squads because they can make the squads weapons mastercrafted? Without that, I don't really see a purpose (outside of fluff).

pretty much, and IIRC the judicar is the first one to go down from perils of the warp if it happens, so it is slightly more dangerous to give the judi a master crafted psycannon or whatever.

"normal" judicars have 2 attacks, so they are better, but purifier and other 2 attack squads have nothing special on their sarges.

Cleansing Flame states that it happen during your turn and your opponent's turn assualt phase. Plus it does states anything about being in B2B.

Grundz wrote:

Son 0f Dorn wrote:So you have Justicars in squads because they can make the squads weapons mastercrafted? Without that, I don't really see a purpose (outside of fluff).

pretty much, and IIRC the judicar is the first one to go down from perils of the warp if it happens, so it is slightly more dangerous to give the judi a master crafted psycannon or whatever.

"normal" judicars have 2 attacks, so they are better, but purifier and other 2 attack squads have nothing special on their sarges.

I just would have thought there would have been a drawback to CS'ing the purifiers because of him, but it seems that may be the best way to go against hordes.

Right now, i'm considering just burying the GKs in a lot of dice, rather than getting up in their face and eating flames.

And I mean more dice than usual with that warding staff.

Looks like its time to invest in more shoota boyz and d6s.

That's a refreshing viewpoint.

Not many problems Orks can't solve by throwing more Orks at it.

Yep, Purifiers are broken.

It is BOTH players turns.....

It affects ALL in the ASSAULT.........

This means if you have multiple enemies its just the ONE psychic test for them all!!!

Combat squad and have them near each other, gives you double the chance to inflict pain, with a possible double effect!

The codex says you can cast it during the assault phase in EITHER player's turn.

I take this to mean that once per game turn, you can use it in assault once. Either when you assault or when you are assaulted. You could, therefore, attack first and then use cleansing flame or the other way around.

All depends on who gets the charge, who has the highest initiative and what models are in a squad.

gpfunk wrote:Right now, i'm considering just burying the GKs in a lot of dice, rather than getting up in their face and eating flames.

And I mean more dice than usual with that warding staff.

Looks like its time to invest in more shoota boyz and d6s.

No, it takes the EXACT same amount of fire power to drop a PAGK as a PASM. Warding Staff is only CC.

This will hurt bad if there is a multi-assault done by the purifiers.

Moral of the story: Shoot them

ColdSadHungry wrote:The codex says you can cast it during the assault phase in EITHER player's turn.

I take this to mean that once per game turn, you can use it in assault once. Either when you assault or when you are assaulted. You could, therefore, attack first and then use cleansing flame or the other way around.

All depends on who gets the charge, who has the highest initiative and what models are in a squad.

No, you can use it in either turn. "Either" meaning 0, 1 or both turn

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, you can use it in either turn. "Either" meaning 0, 1 or both turn

So choosing either side means you can be on both sides?

Editing to add:
Or perhaps more relevant to the game, if I can choose either option for a unit can I take both?

It's Either turn as opposed to your turn, or your opponents turn referring to the fact you can do it in 'either' players turn. It's not an exclusive statement that it has to be one turn or the other. As with all rules you have to read the whole rule to get the context not pull out a single word and try to alter it's meaning to fit a different way.

kirsanth wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, you can use it in either turn. "Either" meaning 0, 1 or both turn

So choosing either side means you can be on both sides?

Editing to add:
Or perhaps more relevant to the game, if I can choose either option for a unit can I take both?

Now thats true, I was thinking this can be used in both players turns ie twice in a game turn......

But not now.
Definition of "Either" is....

1. used before the first of two (or occasionally more ) given alternatives (the other being introduced by ‘or’):

"Either I accompany you to your room or I wait here"
"Available in either black or white"


We say "either / or" not "Either and", if we wanted to mean "Either and" we would say "Both"
"Either I accompany you to your room and I wait here"
"Available in either black and white"
These two statements now do not make sense.

Cleansing Flame can be used in "either players turn" hence once per game turn.

Aramoro wrote:It's Either turn as opposed to your turn, or your opponents turn referring to the fact you can do it in 'either' players turn. It's not an exclusive statement that it has to be one turn or the other. As with all rules you have to read the whole rule to get the context not pull out a single word and try to alter it's meaning to fit a different way.

So they meant to write "once per turn" instead, like the other rules that can be used in each player's turn?

/shrug

Editing to add:

That is indeed how I read it, f74.

Uh, I've gone through multiple translators now and they all translate the sentence "This can be used in either player's turn" to the german equivalent of "This can be used in both player's turn". Also multiple dictionaries tell me that "either" has to be translated differently than "either ... or".

Your examples are spurious as you're applying them to mutually exclusive choices.

Read the whole rule

This power can be used during the Assault phase in either player's turn,...

This is when language attacks. either here is simply saying that it doesn't matter who's turn it is not indicating an mutually exclusive choice. Either in this case refers to the different players, not the choice.

This is a common way to write the rules for GW, Blood Angels 'Might of Heroes' , 'Unleash Rage' and 'Sanguine Sword'. All these powers can be used in either players turn, i.e. in both players turn.

"Available in either black or white"

In this example your use of the 'OR' makes it exclusive, not your use of either.

This game was written in English and translated into other languages,

So surely the definition in the Oxford English Dictionary should take precedence.

You can't get a true meaning from a translated text.
There will always be contradiction.

I'm a Grey knight player and I would love this to be twice per game turn.......Alas this doesn't seem to be the case

So why doesn't it say:

This power can be used during the Assault phase in BOTH player's turn,...

It is twice per game turn. It is reiterating that, although it isnt a close combat attack you have permission to use it in your opponents turn.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It is twice per game turn. It is reiterating that, although it isnt a close combat attack you have permission to use it in your opponents turn.

Yes, but as long as it hasn't been used in your turn

f74 wrote:This game was written in English and translated into other languages,

So surely the definition in the Oxford English Dictionary should take precedence.

You can't get a true meaning from a translated text.
There will always be contradiction.

I'm a Grey knight player and I would love this to be twice per game turn.......Alas this doesn't seem to be the case

So why doesn't it say:

This power can be used during the Assault phase in BOTH player's turn,...

Because in English, reading the whole sentence it is in both player turn. In terms of language

This power can be used during the Assault phase in either player's turn,...

is equivalent to

This power can be used during the Assault phase in both player's turn,...

But using Either is more correct as it has the built in implication of choice and it reads better. Either mearly differentiates between the two players in this sentence. Stop trying to analyse the word 'either' and start reading the whole sentence.

Collins English Dictionary wrote:either
determiner
1.
a. one or the other (of two) either coat will do
b. (as pronoun) either is acceptable
2. both one and the other there were ladies at either end of the table
3. (coordinating) used preceding two or more possibilities joined by ``or'' you may have either cheese or a sweet
adv (sentence modifier)
(used with a negative) used to indicate that the clause immediately preceding is a partial reiteration of a previous clause John isn't a liar, but he isn't exactly honest either

Usage: Either is followed by a singular verb in good usage: either is good; either of these books is useful. Care should be taken to avoid ambiguity when using either to mean both or each, as in the following sentence: a ship could be moored on either side of the channel. Agreement between the verb and its subject in either…or… constructions follows the pattern given for neither…nor… See at neither

Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary entry is almost the same.

f74 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:It is twice per game turn. It is reiterating that, although it isnt a close combat attack you have permission to use it in your opponents turn.

Yes, but as long as it hasn't been used in your turn

No, in both players turns, if you wish.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

No, in both players turns, if you wish.

Or in fact in either players turn you might say.

I roll two dice, if either dice is a 6 I win, they both roll 6, I still win.

Edited and deleted

I can use it in either turn

If I use it in my turn, that is ok
If i use it in their turn, that is ok
If i use it in both turns, that is still fulfilling "either" turn

You've missed an "or"

Jidmah wrote:

Collins English Dictionary wrote:either
determiner
1.
a. one or the other (of two) either coat will do
b. (as pronoun) either is acceptable
2. both one and the other there were ladies at either end of the table
3. (coordinating) used preceding two or more possibilities joined by ``or'' you may have either cheese or a sweet
adv (sentence modifier)
(used with a negative) used to indicate that the clause immediately preceding is a partial reiteration of a previous clause John isn't a liar, but he isn't exactly honest either

Usage: Either is followed by a singular verb in good usage: either is good; either of these books is useful. Care should be taken to avoid ambiguity when using either to mean both or each, as in the following sentence: a ship could be moored on either side of the channel. Agreement between the verb and its subject in either…or… constructions follows the pattern given for neither…nor… See at neither

Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary entry is almost the same.

After reading this quote I accept defeat and am grateful of this clarification, Its a shame GW can't get their act together and write this in a way that doesn't cause this amount of confusion.

f74 wrote:"Either" means one OR the other

I just quoted two dictionaries telling us "either" can be used as synoym for "both".

edit: curse you for turbo-boost posting

Yep, See above post

hehehe

Thanks for your tight grasp of the English language....Ever thought of proof reading for GW?

Has anyone posted this situation into the INAT thread yet?

I agree it can be read either way, which does not change my stance on the way it should be.

Editing to add:
Now at least I know not to use it in both phases but I will not worry if someone else thinks they can.

kirsanth wrote:I agree it can be read either way, which does not change my stance on the way it should be.

Editing to add:
Now at least I know not to use it in both phases but I will not worry if someone else thinks they can.

So you don't think you can use

Sword of Sanguineous
Unleash Rage
Might of Heroes
etc etc

Can be used in both players turns? Thats quite a big change to how people play now.

I think either can be read either way.

Which means both in that case, but only one option is correct--which means either of the options is correct (but not both).

That said I always play the weaker interpretation for myself and have no issue with my opponent playing the stronger.

Edited in more "either"s

I think you're still thinking of it as an Ethier ... or construction but whatever floats your boat I guess.

Aramoro wrote:I think you're still thinking of it as an Ethier ... or construction but whatever floats your boat I guess.

That is one way you can use either to state or.

Not the only way.

Using the exact same (non-English) dictionary you referenced it can be read. . .either way. see 1 a

kirsanth wrote:

Aramoro wrote:I think you're still thinking of it as an Ethier ... or construction but whatever floats your boat I guess.

That is one way you can use either to state or.

Not the only way.

Using the exact same (non-English) dictionary you referenced it can be read. . .either way. see 1 a

I have never referenced a dictionary, I think you have me confused.

I am in fact saying you should not reference a dictionary but rather read the whole thing and comprehend it as a sentence as the English language is designed to be used.

Aramoro wrote:I have never referenced a dictionary, I think you have me confused.

This is true.

Aramoro wrote:I am in fact saying you should not reference a dictionary but rather read the whole thing and comprehend it as a sentence as the English language is designed to be used.

This is self-righteous non-sense.

Cleansing Flame can be used in "either players turn" hence once per game turn.

This is how I understand it too.
only once per game turn but you choose in whos player turn.

Same as hammerhand, cast only once per game turn.

If the powers can be cast 2 times per game turn (once for each players turn) they are pretty overpowered.

It can be used twice per game turn. Once on your turn, and again on the opponents turn.
BRB Pg. 9:

"Hence one game turn will comprise of two player turns. Whenever a rule uses the word "turn", in both this rule book and in the codexes, it means 'player turn', otherwise it will clearly state 'game turn'.

In the GK codex, where it talks about how a squad of Grey Knights uses Psychic abilities, under the "Brotherood of Psykers" rule:

A Grey Knight unit can use one psychic power each turn. The unit counts as a single psyker and follows all the normal rules for psykers.

Also in the BRB on Pg. 50:

Psyker's can use one psychic power per player turn.

Since the Brotherhood of Psykers says 1 power per turn, and the BRB says that 'turn' is a "player turn", and if I can use 1 power per "player" turn, then I can use this ability in both turns, it can be used twice a 'game turn'. Just like Hammerhand can be used on your turn, and then again on your opponents turn. Just like Force weapons are psychic abilities that can be activated in your turn, then again in your opponents turn. Just like a Daemon Prince can use Warp Time for every assault phase.

The limit to using using Cleansing Flame though is that Psyker's can (unless otherwise stated) only use 1 ability per turn. So if you're using cleansing flame, you're NOT using Hammerhand for +1S. You're also NOT activating Force Weapons to instant gib the Nobz. This is the reason someone like Justicar Thawn (the GK terminator upgrade) is a Psyker Level 2 (can use 2 abilities a turn) but only has 1 power. The standard terminators have to choose, Hammerhand, or Force weapons, he can have both. You have to choose which ability you're going to use, but you can do it in every turn.

The other main downside is that using these powers every chance you get gives you a much higher chance of suffering Perils of the Warp, which on a unit with no Invun saves, means losing modles outright.

kryhavok wrote:It can be used twice per game turn. Once on your turn, and again on the opponents turn.
BRB Pg. 9:

"Hence one game turn will comprise of two player turns. Whenever a rule uses the word "turn", in both this rule book and in the codexes, it means 'player turn', otherwise it will clearly state 'game turn'.

In the GK codex, where it talks about how a squad of Grey Knights uses Psychic abilities, under the "Brotherood of Psykers" rule:

A Grey Knight unit can use one psychic power each turn. The unit counts as a single psyker and follows all the normal rules for psykers.

Also in the BRB on Pg. 50:

Psyker's can use one psychic power per player turn.

100% true, but you realize the issue is not in any rule you quoted, right?

The power itself mentions "the Assault phase in either player's turn".

So even if there is a restriction against using it in both turns the psykers have the option of using a DIFFERENT power on the other turn.

Aramoro wrote:So you don't think you can use

Sword of Sanguineous
Unleash Rage
Might of Heroes
etc etc

Can be used in both players turns? Thats quite a big change to how people play now.

Aye, the ability for Psykers to use an ability each Player turn is an often made mistake. I think this is mainly because most psykers don't have any abilities they can cast in the opponent's turn, save for activating their force weapon. For example, the Codex: Space Marines, Codex: Space Wolves or Codex: Tyranids don't have a single power that can be cast in the opponent's turn. But indeed, Codex: Blood Angels and the new Codex: Grey Knights have plenty of powers that can be cast on either player's turn, or even only in the opponents turn.

Redemption wrote:For example, the Codex: Space Marines, Codex: Space Wolves or Codex: Tyranids don't have a single power that can be cast in the opponent's turn.

Force Weapons (or the equivelent) for the marines can be used in both player turns. Tyranids are left out though, you are correct.

kirsanth wrote:Force Weapons (or the equivelent) for the marines can be used in both player turns.

Redemption wrote:save for activating their force weapon.

Gadzooks, man!

I read your post twice looking for that line and missed it both times.

My bad.

The fact that I used an ability during my turn doesn't limit my ability to use that power during my opponents turn. Only the fact I can't use most abilities except for during my own turn. All of the Psyker rules are limits on "Player turn". Meaning once that player turn is over, the limits are then "reset".

I don't see anything that limits a power to be used only once a "game turn". If someone knows of that rule, please let me know where it's written.

IMO The inclusion of the word "either" is simply (albeit a poor choice of words) to let players know that it can be activated during you opponents assault phase, meaning you you're forced to receive the charge it can still be used.

kryhavok wrote:IMO The inclusion of the word "either" is simply (albeit a poor choice of words) to let players know that it can be activated during you opponents assault phase, meaning you you're forced to receive the charge it can still be used.

This could be 100% true.

It could also be true that they meant to write it differently than the rest of the abilities that can be used once per turn because it cannot be.

/shrug

In logic and law, either denotes one, the other or both. Unless it's an either/or construction, in which case it's only one of the two.

Redemption wrote:In logic and law, either denotes one, the other or both. Unless it's an either/or construction, in which case it's only one of the two.

So given that it says to be used in either turn, that could really go either way.

My second either cannot really be read as allowing both to occur.

I don't think that GW intends players to turn to a dictionary to try to decipher a rule - save those kinds of shenanigans for Scrabble.

It's ironic that in this case, either can mean either scenario, lol.

But seriously, does anyone actually believe that a power that could wipe 10, 15, 20 or more models in one use can be used more than once per game turn by one squad? Take three or four purifier squads and you're talking about a potentially match winning ability being thrown around like there's no tomorrow.

Just because you can interpret it to mean you can use it twice per game turn, doesn't mean that it should overrule common sense.

Aye, it's because either is an auto-antonym (a word that can mean one thing or its exact opposite), like fast, buckle or weather, and should be inferred from the context of the sentence. For example, if there was a construct with a button and two lights, and you were told to push the button if either light goes on, wouldn't you push the button if both lights turned on simultanously?

I agree though, they could have used clearer wording. Per usual, a FAQ would help.

Redemption wrote:Aye, it's because either is an auto-antonym (a word that can mean one thing or its exact opposite), like fast, buckle or weather, and should be inferred from the context of the sentence.

And moot.

Redemption wrote:For example, if there was a construct with a button and two lights, and you were told to push the button if either light goes on, wouldn't you push the button if both lights turned on simultanously?

Probably, but would you push both buttons if you were told to push either button when a light turns on?

Redemption wrote:I agree though, they could have used clearer wording. Per usual, a FAQ would help.

Kryhavok:
Thanks for the clarification.

kirsanth wrote:

Redemption wrote:For example, if there was a construct with a button and two lights, and you were told to push the button if either light goes on, wouldn't you push the button if both lights turned on simultanously?

Probably, but would you push both buttons if you were told to push either button when a light turns on?

Well, no, but that's because it's a different context (and I'm too lazy to push both). But let's turn your example around, if your test subject did press both buttons, was he technically wrong to push both?

Let's try common sense. Let's say, hypothetically, it could only be use in either your player turn, or the other player's turn, but only once per game turn.
Now, imagine that you got the first turn, and you assault someone at the start of game turn 2. You can now cast Cleansing Flame, but you wouldn't be able to cast it again immediately the next assault phase, as it's still the same game turn.
Now, imagine that you went second instead, and you assault someone at the end of game turn 2. You can now cast Cleansing Flame, and you can cast it again immediately the next assault, as that would be the start of game turn 3.

So suddenly you can cast it twice in a row, thus potentionally making it more powerful, just because you started the assault at the end of a game turn? I know it's not always a good idea to try to apply common sense to WH40k rules, but that doesn't make sense to me.

Redemption wrote:So suddenly you can cast it twice in a row, thus potentionally making it more powerful, just because you started the assault at the end of a game turn? I know it's not always a good idea to try to apply common sense to WH40k rules, but that doesn't make sense to me.

You mean something like when they wrote this:

Q. How do Njal Stormcallerʼs Driving Gale and Living
Hurricane effects work if the Space Wolves player is the
player going second? (p53)

A. These two abilities have no real effect in games where
the Space Wolves player is going second – the tempest is
yet to rage.

Editing to add:
The idea that something works differently depending on the turn it is used is not so strange; that was the point of that SW reference.

Heh, as I said, trying to apply common sense to 40k rules can be a bad idea. Lord of Tempests is just a poorly written rule though I guess.

Still, I stand by my point, but yeah, FAQ please.

nosferatu1001 wrote:ZXwarrior - quit overreacting. GK are FAR from overpowered.

Oaka - it's been stated by peopel who have seen the codex exactly how it works, however as you dont seem to believe them the wording is:

"This power can be used during the Assault phase in either players turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck. If the psychic test is passed, all enemy models that are part of the same assault suffer one wound on a roll of a 4+"

There is absolutely nothing in there that restricts it to one turn. nothing.

blows have been struck during the first turn of combat... if combat continues to another turn, blows have already been struck, therefore, the use it "before any blows have been struck" test fails and it can't be used in subsequent turns of combat.

jeremesh wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:ZXwarrior - quit overreacting. GK are FAR from overpowered.

Oaka - it's been stated by peopel who have seen the codex exactly how it works, however as you dont seem to believe them the wording is:

"This power can be used during the Assault phase in either players turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck. If the psychic test is passed, all enemy models that are part of the same assault suffer one wound on a roll of a 4+"

There is absolutely nothing in there that restricts it to one turn. nothing.

blows have been struck during the first turn of combat... if combat continues to another turn, blows have already been struck, therefore, the use it "before any blows have been struck" test fails and it can't be used in subsequent turns of combat.

Now ask yourself this, during the second assault phase have blows been struck that phase? no, alright prepare to burn

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

jeremesh wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:ZXwarrior - quit overreacting. GK are FAR from overpowered.

Oaka - it's been stated by peopel who have seen the codex exactly how it works, however as you dont seem to believe them the wording is:

"This power can be used during the Assault phase in either players turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck. If the psychic test is passed, all enemy models that are part of the same assault suffer one wound on a roll of a 4+"

There is absolutely nothing in there that restricts it to one turn. nothing.

blows have been struck during the first turn of combat... if combat continues to another turn, blows have already been struck, therefore, the use it "before any blows have been struck" test fails and it can't be used in subsequent turns of combat.

Now ask yourself this, during the second assault phase have blows been struck that phase? no, alright prepare to burn

It doesnt say before any blows have been struck "that phase"

used during the assault phase in either players turn, it doesnt say the first assault either ...

jeremesh wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

jeremesh wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:ZXwarrior - quit overreacting. GK are FAR from overpowered.

Oaka - it's been stated by peopel who have seen the codex exactly how it works, however as you dont seem to believe them the wording is:

"This power can be used during the Assault phase in either players turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck. If the psychic test is passed, all enemy models that are part of the same assault suffer one wound on a roll of a 4+"

There is absolutely nothing in there that restricts it to one turn. nothing.

blows have been struck during the first turn of combat... if combat continues to another turn, blows have already been struck, therefore, the use it "before any blows have been struck" test fails and it can't be used in subsequent turns of combat.

Now ask yourself this, during the second assault phase have blows been struck that phase? no, alright prepare to burn

It doesnt say before any blows have been struck "that phase"

By your logic you can't ever use cleansing flame after one CC attack has been carried out by any unit during that game...

EDIT: Oh, also: ARISE, YE THREAD OF YORE! MAY YOUR BROKEN HUSK HAUNT THESE DECRIPIT HALLS! (Don't necro!)

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:used during the assault phase in either players turn, it doesnt say the first assault either ...

Have any assault moves been made in the subsequent combat turn?

Guess that depends if you had to move or not. It doesnt specify you have to move. Just that it's done after

Claiming Cleansing Flame doesnt work in either players assault phase based upon the view that its would then be too powerful is an invalid argument in the face of what is actually written .

jeremesh wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

jeremesh wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:ZXwarrior - quit overreacting. GK are FAR from overpowered.

Oaka - it's been stated by peopel who have seen the codex exactly how it works, however as you dont seem to believe them the wording is:

"This power can be used during the Assault phase in either players turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck. If the psychic test is passed, all enemy models that are part of the same assault suffer one wound on a roll of a 4+"

There is absolutely nothing in there that restricts it to one turn. nothing.

blows have been struck during the first turn of combat... if combat continues to another turn, blows have already been struck, therefore, the use it "before any blows have been struck" test fails and it can't be used in subsequent turns of combat.

Now ask yourself this, during the second assault phase have blows been struck that phase? no, alright prepare to burn

It doesnt say before any blows have been struck "that phase"

Its a little thing called "context" - learn it, love it, use it.

(Or, in other words, that context is "either assault pahse" - not "the first assault phase you have made")

Oh, and before you argue - the line "after assault moves" is not a requirement on being able to use the power.

blows have been struck during the first turn of combat... if combat continues to another turn, blows have already been struck, therefore, the use it "before any blows have been struck" test fails and it can't be used in subsequent turns of combat.

So by this reading once assault has happened in the game then cleansing flame can't be used. Would you actually attempt this argument in game: "Granted these Purifiers haven't struck any blows, but my deffkopter assaulted and struck blows on your rhino in turn 1 so no more cleansing flame for your entire army any more..."

Regardless, can't grey knight squads only use one psychic power per game turn?

So that would limit the use of the power to either your assault or your opponents assault phase. The gamble being that your opponent might not assault you knowing that they have a massive whooping coming.

Edit: I'll bow to superior GK knowledge on this one!

I think it is per turn(meaning player turn)not game turn.

Each brotherhood of psykers may use one power per player turn, just like any other level 1 psyker.

Kijamon wrote:Regardless, can't grey knight squads only use one psychic power per game turn?

So that would limit the use of the power to either your assault or your opponents assault phase. The gamble being that your opponent might not assault you knowing that they have a massive whooping coming.

Player turn. Turn = player turn. Not onlyis it in the rulebook, they also FAQ'd it for you.