I have been reading a lot about the new GK codex and Crowe is almost universally panned as useless except to make Purifiers troops. What is it that makes him so terrible otherwise?

He's ok, but don't get me started on his brother, Russell. Robin Hood was rubbish...

...sorry, it's 22:15 here and I've been up since 06:00

Brotherhood Champs are a bit weird to begin with(and not a good choice in the highly fought over HQ slot) and units assaulting Crowe get furious charge and preferred enemy. So unless Crowe is by himself(in which case your opponent shoots him) any unit he joins is going to die if charged.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:Brotherhood Champs are a bit weird to begin with(and not a good choice in the highly fought over HQ slot) and units assaulting Crowe get furious charge and preferred enemy. So unless Crowe is by himself(in which case your opponent shoots him) any unit he joins is going to die if charged.

I'm pretty sure that Crowe isn't an IC, he is infantry. So you can't have him join units. Good luck finding a ride for him too.

the fact that he is not an IC is huge. he doesn't have enough protection to last. he also gives the enemy FC and Re-rolls vs him. His only saving grace is the fact you get to take purifiers as troops

Well purifiers can do their ablitie ( i forgot the name ) every assault turn meaning they are great at range and the can hurt in assault

The reason people don't like him.
No HtH attacks in assault unless you give up rerollable 2+ 4++ save.
No IC, so no joining other units.
Give units assaulting him FC and rerolls to hit.
Titan's Herald is useless on him, if you want him the survive the turn he is assaulted.
He has Hammerhand, but will never use it. You give up Cleaning Flame and reroll save to use it. Plus, the turn you do attack you want to save you power use for Heroic Sacifice, becouse he will die that turn.

Saying all that if used right, he well be a ungodly tarpit. The trick is making sure you assault with him, and picking the right unit to charge, as in no unit spaming Power Weapons.

His big killers are lack of IC, 2 wounds, and only 1 psychic power. Add on top of that FC and rerolls to anyone who assaults, and you wouldnt WANT him to be able to join units. Only time that doesnt matter is when a BA assault squad with chaplain and sangpriest assaults him

Noir wrote:The reason people don't like him.
No HtH attacks in assault unless you give up rerollable 2+ 4++ save.
No IC, so no joining other units.
Give units assaulting him FC and rerolls to hit.
Titan's Herald is useless on him, if you want him the survive the turn he is assaulted.
He has Hammerhand, but will never use it. You give up Cleaning Flame and reroll save to use it. Plus, the turn you do attack you want to save you power use for Heroic Sacifice, becouse he will die that turn.

Saying all that if used right, he well be a ungodly tarpit. The trick is making sure you assault with him, and picking the right unit to charge, as in no unit spaming Power Weapons.

Well summarized. If Crowe did not unlock the best unit in the codex as Troops, nobody would be giving him a second glance.

Noir is right, he's good if you "use him correctly." The issue is everything about him is working against "using him correctly." He can't take a transport, unless you jack someone else's ride or devote an entire Land Raider or Stormraven to his personal use. So generally he's stuck moving across the board on his own two feet, without Fleet, Deep Strike, Infiltrate, or any other way to really be an assault threat. Keep in mind that at any point during this trek he can be instantly murdered by any Lascannon, Meltagun, or Rapid Fire Plasma pointed his way, as he can't join a unit to absorb AP2 shooting for him.

The number of hoops you have to jump through to get him to do anything useful is ridiculous. Pretty much any savvy opponent is going to just shoot him before he gets into melee, and gleefully collect 1 KP / 10 Battle Points for killing your HQ character. Even if he does get into melee, any number of Power Weapons attacking him is going to make him unhappy. Given his foot-bound nature, the majority of the time your opponent will be assaulting him, not the other way around. You can theorycraft about counter-charging, baiting, and giving him Scout for hours, but in the end, his inferior mobility means any competent opponent is going to dictate where he assaults, not you.

I think the saddest part is that there are a multitude of small changes would have made him viable. Independent Character, Personal Teleporter, Deep Strike, the ability to take a Transport, or just a regular Nemesis Force Sword instead of his ridiculously bad and un-fluffy Daemon Weapon would all have made him worth taking.

Everything said here is true and well put but there is the small caveat that if he ever did get to charge into combat against big baddies or units without power weapons... he'll do great.

Long odds I know, but he is a mini purifier unit all on his own.
Half of his abilities aren't psychic powers, so you can pick a combat stance (probably the save re-roll), use cleansing flame and take out the leader of the unit that killed him all in the same turn. IE: charge an ork horde (again, rare situation I know), wipe out half with cleansing flame, either try to save forever or hit everyone in btb with an attack, and then bring the PK nob down with him when he dies.

He ain't great, its true, but for the ability to take purifiers as troops, I'm willing to swallow that bitter pill and try to make him work

He might be intended as a trap unit The special rules hint that you're secretly hoping for the enemy to charge you. If they do that you can decide if you want to use cleansing flame to thin out the unit or try your luck at assassinating a character. Of course he does have some serious problems making this happen. I will note that Heroic Sacrifice is a psychic power and with mastery level 1 he has to choose whether to use cleansing flame and hope he survives or hold back and hope he dies so he can use Heroic Sacrifice.

It almost seems that Crowe is the trade off for Purifier troops. The purifiers are so good you have to put up with an HQ this bad to take them.

I think he is best used against large units. He can Cleansing Flame in every combat phase, and then take re-rolled saves to tarpit a large unit with out many power attacks. Simply use a vindicarre to knock out the power weapons, if any, and then watch him not fail any saves while he flames away.

svendrex wrote:I think he is best used against large units. He can Cleansing Flame in every combat phase, and then take re-rolled saves to tarpit a large unit with out many power attacks. Simply use a vindicarre to knock out the power weapons, if any, and then watch him not fail any saves while he flames away.

Sure, he can go for the blade shield route, rerollable 2+ isn't bad. It isn't a 100 percent gimme that you will save all 35 wounds before you fail your first one, on the 36th save (in fact, the odds are greatly against it). It also isn't a gimme that the vindicare kills the PW guy. He probably hits no problem, but the vindi doesn't have 2+ sniper, he has normal 4+ sniper. He really is a poor HQ, as are all brotherhood champions

notabot187 wrote:He probably hits no problem, but the vindi doesn't have 2+ sniper

Yeah he does, it's also not going to allow an armor save.

notabot187 wrote:It also isn't a gimme that the vindicare kills the PW guy. He probably hits no problem, but the vindi doesn't have 2+ sniper, he has normal 4+ sniper. He really is a poor HQ, as are all brotherhood champions

Actually, he does, assuming you don't need to remove an invul save or do 2 wounds.

I think Crowe would be a perfect character to load up in a Chimera along with Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. Have him pop out and protect the tank against assaults while the ST's lay down vicious firepower from the inside. Then have Purifier squads fly around in Stormravens to clean up and capture objectives.

His CQC prowess is pretty nice. Hitting on mostly 2's & 3's and rending on a 4+ is awesome. Plus the master swordsman rules, he is a nasty bastard.

bryan40kman2000 wrote:I have been reading a lot about the new GK codex and Crowe is almost universally panned as useless except to make Purifiers troops. What is it that makes him so terrible otherwise?

Because unlocking purifiers as troops for 150pts isnt enough, he should be playing guitar solo's while riding a jetbike away from an explosion in slow motion without looking back, or else people complain.

Stormrider wrote:I think Crowe would be a perfect character to load up in a Chimera along with Inquisitorial Stormtroopers.

He can't be in a transport with anyone else.

Crowe has actually been pretty fun to use...

You can hide him quite easily on most boards...

So what I have done thus far...sit him on your objective and make him scoring...hiding from LoS isn't that difficult in my area. And any unit that decides to pick a fight is most likely dead.

Or outflank that beast...

Now al Crowe needed to be overpowered was one of the below

-IC status
-T5
-Fleet
-Eternal Warrior

All that being said...you probably won;t take Purifiers as troops often...but you will make them scoring with Grand Strategy regardless..

DarknessEternal wrote:

Stormrider wrote:I think Crowe would be a perfect character to load up in a Chimera along with Inquisitorial Stormtroopers.

He can't be in a transport with anyone else.

I guess that is because of his stupid sword?

ductvader wrote:

Now al Crowe needed to be overpowered was one of the below

-IC status
-T5
-Fleet
-Eternal Warrior

Having a normal nemesis force sword would have been enough for me, instead of the crappy stick he's wielding now. So yay, he can kill wraithlords with it. Whooptydoo. Except he can't, likely as not the wraithlord will smush him

Yes...Crowe is the only place safe enough to keep the daemon...and having others around it is an unecessary danger

I am looking at a physical copy of the Codex at my flgs, there is nothing in Crowe's entry or the entry of the Brotherhood Champion that says anything about them not being able to be transported with other troops.
Sounds like Crowe can go anywhere and do anything.

Edited for grammar fail

Stormrider wrote:I am looking at a physical copy of the Codex at my flgs, there is nothing in Crowe's entry or the entry of the Brotherhood Champion that says anything about them not being able to be transported with other troops.
Sounds like Crowe can go anywhere and do anything.

Edited for grammar fail

Notice the part where he isn't an independent character? That means he can't join other units, which means he can't take their ride unless they get out of it 1st.

Stormrider wrote:I am looking at a physical copy of the Codex at my flgs, there is nothing in Crowe's entry or the entry of the Brotherhood Champion that says anything about them not being able to be transported with other troops.
Sounds like Crowe can go anywhere and do anything.

Edited for grammar fail

Look at his rules....notice how it doesn't say independent character? THAT'S why he can't ride with anyone else. You COULD get him his own chimera/rhino to ride around in though, but it would have to be bought for another unit and have him 'hijack' it first turn.

Stormrider wrote:I am looking at a physical copy of the Codex at my flgs, there is nothing in Crowe's entry or the entry of the Brotherhood Champion that says anything about them not being able to be transported with other troops.
Sounds like Crowe can go anywhere and do anything.

Except that there is nothing in Crowe's entry that says anything about him being an Independent Character, which is the only way you can be able to be transported with other troops. Look at Mephiston for a great example.

The restriction on transport is a general one. Each transport can hold but one unit- and Crowe is so manly that he is his own unit.

About the only exceptions I can think of are IC, and Stormravens with Dreadnought and a unit of infantry or jump infantry.

he's a decent HQ.


you just have to treat him like he is and use him as a tarpit.


have him assault massive units of GEQ without power weapons and watch him destroy them(although he would probably do pretty well against a power blob. cleansing flame can snipe sergeants and Commissars )

crow has bad rules?, I never knew, I couldn't get past he god awful fluff

the fluff got an overhaul, but i like it. it's more interesting

Fair enough, I missed that. Calm down folks.

personally i really like him
<---------------hence this

he has the best fluff imo and hes a great unit in CC he can tarpit with parry do hordes with Cleansing flame and kill IC with his specials and death psychic power

the only problem is getting him there hes like a really expensive none shooty lone wolf but that's why i like him hes the unit your opponent laughs at for slogging across the board and running every shooting phase but cries when he takes down their horde or eats their expensive IC


hell im even so far to shout the old I am Spartacus line on this guy because hes now my favorite character in 40K hes a classic underdog

I am castellan crowe!

There he is, lads He admits it

Crucify him.

Then beat him to a pulp for having such ridiculous fluff and ruining the GK


I can't believe that you actually like that dross they pretend is fluff...

Ascalam wrote:There he is, lads He admits it

Crucify him.

Then beat him to a pulp for having such ridiculous fluff and ruining the GK


I can't believe that you actually like that dross they pretend is fluff...

AHHH! *runs away and hides*

now fro something completely different: i like it tbh i warrior completely incorruptible and devotes his entire life to guarding a sword which means he gets attacked by power crazed enemies and never tempted to use its powers for his own good ? sounds pretty Bad-a** to me .
plus on the battlefield no one can be near him because they the most pure of the space marines could be turned by it xD

and i mean hes so good a swordsman he doesn't even use the sword to its full potential i reckon he could get rending off a spoon xD

Crow's really bad. Really, really, really bad.

Most of his rules kind of just suck, and having 2 wounds doesn't help him much either. Especially since he can't join another unit.

But what really kills him is that whole "enemy units charging him get furious charge and rerolls to hit."

Against just Crowe, that's not that bad, since, let's face it, you didn't really buy the guy to be useful. The problem comes when your opponent starts multi-assaulting.

So unless you isolate Crowe completely from the rest of your army, you could end up with a smart opponent charging Crowe and getting into combat with something actually useful. And they'll have Furious Charge and rerolls to hit just to make that unit's life absolute hell.

He's best just sitting at the back of the table and hoping that he doesn't get blown up by a lascannon in a killpoint game. Use him to unlock Purifiers and then just keep him out of the game, his abilities make him way too much of a liability.

Fafnir wrote:But what really kills him is that whole "enemy units charging him get furious charge and rerolls to hit.".

unless its relictors, then crow dies instantly from hypocrite wounds

Fafnir wrote:Crow's really bad. Really, really, really bad.

Most of his rules kind of just suck, and having 2 wounds doesn't help him much either. Especially since he can't join another unit.

But what really kills him is that whole "enemy units charging him get furious charge and rerolls to hit."

Against just Crowe, that's not that bad, since, let's face it, you didn't really buy the guy to be useful. The problem comes when your opponent starts multi-assaulting.

So unless you isolate Crowe completely from the rest of your army, you could end up with a smart opponent charging Crowe and getting into combat with something actually useful. And they'll have Furious Charge and rerolls to hit just to make that unit's life absolute hell.

He's best just sitting at the back of the table and hoping that he doesn't get blown up by a lascannon in a killpoint game. Use him to unlock Purifiers and then just keep him out of the game, his abilities make him way too much of a liability.

can you clarify this for me im a little confused only the unit that charges crowe gets FC and re-rolls and only if they get charge and can't keep them so its only bad if they target him if they charge into a unit in the same combat they don't get any bonuses

Alphacerberus wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Crow's really bad. Really, really, really bad.

Most of his rules kind of just suck, and having 2 wounds doesn't help him much either. Especially since he can't join another unit.

But what really kills him is that whole "enemy units charging him get furious charge and rerolls to hit."

Against just Crowe, that's not that bad, since, let's face it, you didn't really buy the guy to be useful. The problem comes when your opponent starts multi-assaulting.

So unless you isolate Crowe completely from the rest of your army, you could end up with a smart opponent charging Crowe and getting into combat with something actually useful. And they'll have Furious Charge and rerolls to hit just to make that unit's life absolute hell.

He's best just sitting at the back of the table and hoping that he doesn't get blown up by a lascannon in a killpoint game. Use him to unlock Purifiers and then just keep him out of the game, his abilities make him way too much of a liability.

can you clarify this for me im a little confused only the unit that charges crowe gets FC and re-rolls and only if they get charge and can't keep them so its only bad if they target him if they charge into a unit in the same combat they don't get any bonuses

No by assaulting Crowe and getting even one guy into CC, the rules been satisfied so the effect gose off. The getting to FC reroll the extra unit in multi assault is just a bonus, as you still assaulted Crowe.

Edit: You must declare your assaulting Crowe, you can't declare an assault on a Strike Squad and get into multi assault with Crowe and clame the bonuses.

Whoa!

Everyone needs to settle down a bit in here.

Remember the rules of the site, and if you think someone has transgressed, please use the Moderator Alert button - no vigilante justice please.

Public warning issued - carry on!

That wasnt vigilante justice, it was a prophecy, a warning to the denizens of the only decent 40k forum left.

Alphacerberus wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Crow's really bad. Really, really, really bad.

Most of his rules kind of just suck, and having 2 wounds doesn't help him much either. Especially since he can't join another unit.

But what really kills him is that whole "enemy units charging him get furious charge and rerolls to hit."

Against just Crowe, that's not that bad, since, let's face it, you didn't really buy the guy to be useful. The problem comes when your opponent starts multi-assaulting.

So unless you isolate Crowe completely from the rest of your army, you could end up with a smart opponent charging Crowe and getting into combat with something actually useful. And they'll have Furious Charge and rerolls to hit just to make that unit's life absolute hell.

He's best just sitting at the back of the table and hoping that he doesn't get blown up by a lascannon in a killpoint game. Use him to unlock Purifiers and then just keep him out of the game, his abilities make him way too much of a liability.

can you clarify this for me im a little confused only the unit that charges crowe gets FC and re-rolls and only if they get charge and can't keep them so its only bad if they target him if they charge into a unit in the same combat they don't get any bonuses

Basically, you declare a charge on Crowe. You move one man into base contact with him, and then spread out the rest of your unit to get into combat with another unit (so long as you remain in unit coherency, you're golden). So long as you've declared your charge against Crowe, and have one model in base contact with him, the entire unit gets furious charge and may reroll to hit. You can have entire portions of your army devestated by this tactic (this obviously depends on what army and units you're playing), and Crowe only makes it easier.

Well, i certaintly will be trying to prevent assaults on Crowe as much as possable, especially multi-assaults.


then i can just use Blade shield to stay alive and let Cleansing Flame do the work.

or i assault, you pile in and i get a meteric ton of attacks that basically kill on 4+ unless you have Invulns

Grey Templar wrote:
or i assault, you pile in and i get a meteric ton of attacks that basically kill on 4+ unless you have Invulns

Which is cool, until you remember that he's mounted on a small base. Which means he'll only ever get 6 attacks at most. Which is cool, until you realize that that generally means he'll only make about 2 wounds, which is kind of pathetic, especially when, against the enemies that have the numbers to surround him in such a way, they're likely to not really care about 2 wounds.

All for 150 points and a chance to be beaten to a bloody pulp when the chance for the enemy to attack comes around.

In comparison, a Purifier with a pair of falchions on the charge will get 5 attacks, inflicting 1.25 wounds for 29 points.

Use him to unlock Purifiers as troops, and then keep him isolated in the back for the rest of the game.

2 wounds, plus Cleansing flame.


depending on the models attacking him, that could be alot.


and cleansing flame has the ability to snipe sergeants and special weapons as the hits are allocated on a model by model basis.

And even if he did get in combat with something like a Boyz squad, which is what he's supposedly supposed to to well against, after cleansing flame has gone off and he's made his attacks, that'll leave 15 boyz and a Nob left.

Those 15 boyz will make their attacks, inflicting 1.25 wounds on average (remember, if Crowe uses his sword storm stance, he can't reroll his armour saves), and then the Nob inflicts 0.625 wounds (that will instantly kill him if one is unsaved).

So if Crowe were to get in combat with a large horde, which is supposedly his bread and butter, he'll kill around 84 points worth before he bites it. And his value only gets worse as enemy units get lower in number and higher in quality.

Grey Templar wrote:
or i assault, you pile in and i get a meteric ton of attacks that basically kill on 4+ unless you have Invulns

Even then Blade Sheild and Cleaning Flame is the better option. Only vs. IC and MC is it worth going on the offence with Crowe, even thats risky as you only get 4 attacks max so there a good chance the IC/MC will survive and kill him.

Fafnir wrote:And even if he did get in combat with something like a Boyz squad, which is what he's supposedly supposed to to well against, after cleansing flame has gone off and he's made his attacks, that'll leave 15 boyz and a Nob left.

Those 15 boyz will make their attacks, inflicting 1.25 wounds on average (remember, if Crowe uses his sword storm stance, he can't reroll his armour saves), and then the Nob inflicts 0.625 wounds (that will instantly kill him if one is unsaved).

So if Crowe were to get in combat with a large horde, which is supposedly his bread and butter, he'll kill around 84 points worth before he bites it. And his value only gets worse as enemy units get lower in number and higher in quality.

with blade shield, he's rerolling his 2+ armor and 4+ invuln.


boys won't kill him, and a PK nob basically has a worse then 25% chance each turn(averaging 1 hit, 1 wound, and Crowe has to double fail a 4++)

and that nob better hope he doesn't take any Cleansing flame wounds over the course of the combat.

Grey Templar wrote:
and a PK nob basically has a worse then 25% chance each turn(averaging 1 hit, 1 wound, and Crowe has to double fail a 4++)

and that nob better hope he doesn't take any Cleansing flame wounds over the course of the combat.

Actually, the Nob has a 31% chance of inflicting a wound if Crowe uses Blade Shield. And Cleansing flame only ever inflicts one wound per use. That's wounding on a 4+ with a 6+ save on a model with 2 wounds. Essentially, 41% of a wound each turn, which must be inflicted twice. So on average, it'll take about 5 turns of combat to get the job done, while a Nob is likely to get the job done in 3 (although it's possible to get it done in one turn, where as Crowe needs at least two no matter what).

Things still don't look too good for Crowe.

And note, this is if Crowe gets the charge. Since he'll likely be on foot, it could really go either way. What's more, the Boyz have access to the Waaagh! to help close the distance and ensure a charge if they have to. And if the boyz get the charge, the Nob is almost gauranteed to kill him, which means that the boyz can multi-assault into something else, with the lovely added bonus of rerolling to hit.

The point is though that by charging Crowe in (from a stormraven say) he's going to 'make back' about half his points or more depending on how long he survives. With a dreadnought backing him up and another stormraven having unleashed 10 purifiers, librarian and another dreadnought elsewhere, and with the librarian able to summon another 10 purifiers (whose raven Crowe used), you can get stuck right into a horde with lots of cleanses and some meltas to take out any vehicles too). If the purifiers have flachions, they're going to mince big ork m,mobs - and a demon hammer or two will settle the hash of any wandering nob...

But why even worry about all that just to fit Crowe in when a single pair of combat squaded purifiers will do the job just as well for much less, all while leaving unscathed?

Fafnir wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
and a PK nob basically has a worse then 25% chance each turn(averaging 1 hit, 1 wound, and Crowe has to double fail a 4++)

and that nob better hope he doesn't take any Cleansing flame wounds over the course of the combat.

Actually, the Nob has a 31% chance of inflicting a wound if Crowe uses Blade Shield. And Cleansing flame only ever inflicts one wound per use. That's wounding on a 4+ with a 6+ save on a model with 2 wounds. Essentially, 41% of a wound each turn, which must be inflicted twice. So on average, it'll take about 5 turns of combat to get the job done, while a Nob is likely to get the job done in 3 (although it's possible to get it done in one turn, where as Crowe needs at least two no matter what).

Things still don't look too good for Crowe.

And note, this is if Crowe gets the charge. Since he'll likely be on foot, it could really go either way. What's more, the Boyz have access to the Waaagh! to help close the distance and ensure a charge if they have to. And if the boyz get the charge, the Nob is almost gauranteed to kill him, which means that the boyz can multi-assault into something else, with the lovely added bonus of rerolling to hit.

I thought cleansing flame counts towards combat resolution, which would cause 15 wounds on 30 boys followed by a dozen or so more wounds from fearless if crowe doesn't get pasted by the nobs pklaw. Crowe single handedly killing 22 orks in 1 round of combat is a moot compared to the big picture: green tide is screwed because the gk player is probably fielding about 30 purifiers as troops.

That being said crowe still sucks, he is the tripe gk players must swallow to have purifiers as troops.

Fafnir wrote:But why even worry about all that just to fit Crowe in when a single pair of combat squaded purifiers will do the job just as well for much less, all while leaving unscathed?

Well because if one does not take Crowe, then Purifiers are elites, not troops - and that means probably fielding only 2-4 scoring units.

If the idea is to do a 'purification charge' via land raiders or (better, I think) stormravens and call in reinforcements via a Librarian's summons, then of a 2000 point list one has as 'core idea' units:

Librarian, 10 purifiers (combat squadded), 2 stormravens, 2 dreadnoughts, coming in at around 1200 points, depending on Librarian build and precise weapons/wargear chosen. An absolute minimum of 1030 points (no upgrades whatsoever). None of which score. You could add 4 scoring terminator squads at 200 each and have a miserable 150 to spend on wargear, or a more realistic +15% on upgrades to the units, allowing Falchions etc for more hitting power, which means 3 scoring terminator units (2 if Falchions and psycannons are maxed or almost maxed on all infantry).

But take Crowe at 150 points and you can add to that another 10 man purifier unit at around 320 pts instead of your terminators and have enough points left for a 5 man purifier or an assassin or upgrade your dreadnoughts to venerables... so 4 or 5 scoring units assuming you combat squad, and a lot more hitting power (though less survivability) in your follow-up squads. Crowe has his place.

Crowe actually costs less that that boy mob he tied up for a couple of turns(while doing some serious damage) so he actually was very useful.



one way to protect him would be to bubble wrap him.


have him in the exact middle of a squad of purifiers. he isn't joined to them, but he can't be directly charged and he could potentially join the combat at a later time.

Grey Templar wrote:Crowe actually costs less that that boy mob he tied up for a couple of turns(while doing some serious damage) so he actually was very useful.



one way to protect him would be to bubble wrap him.


have him in the exact middle of a squad of purifiers. he isn't joined to them, but he can't be directly charged and he could potentially join the combat at a later time.

The downside to that is if the squad takes shooting casualties crowe and the squad risk being multi charged, and then the enemy gains FC + Rerolls to hit against crowe and the squad that is bubble wrapping him, which is bad news unless ork boys charging crowe and purifiers.

If it's 30 ork boys Crowe and purifiers then Crowe can light 15/30 on them on fire killing 12.5, then the purifiers can light 9/18 of the survivors on fire killing another 7.5 resulting in a total of 20 orks being killed before I10. The 10 remaining orks can then start the combat out at -20 combat resolution and the grey knights get to swing first.

schadenfreude wrote:If it's 30 ork boys Crowe and purifiers then Crowe can light 15/30 on them on fire killing 12.5, then the purifiers can light 9/18 of the survivors on fire killing another 7.5 resulting in a total of 20 orks being killed before I10. The 10 remaining orks can then start the combat out at -20 combat resolution and the grey knights get to swing first.

What, in the wording of Cleansing Flame, makes you think the psy powers would be anything but simultaneous?

Crowe lights 15/30 Boyz on fire for 12.5 dead. The Purifiers light 15/30 on fire for 12.5 dead. 25 Boyz die "before any blows are struck" and the remaining 5 are left to eat the attacks of the squad.

Multicharging purifiers with a hordey unit is absolute suicide unless you can shut down their psypowers.

sourclams wrote:Multicharging purifiers with a hordey unit is absolute suicide unless you can shut down their psypowers.

Which you cannot do, unless you're Nids with a Shadow in the Warp unit 12" away.

Crowe+Purifiers both charging a unit is just plain nasty. Even against a 10-man MEQ squad (say, Berzerkers), you're putting down 3 before any blows are struck, and then attacking first if you brought Halberds.

Everyone I've seen so far has been interpreting Cleansing Flame as going model by model. If that is true then it doesn't matter whether you do it simultaneously or consecutively. It only matters if you do conventional wound allocation.

He is mainly hated because he is new and doesn't exactly fit everyone else's vision of the Grey Knights, kinda like sports fans who hate their respective team's coach because he obviously doesn't know how to do his job.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:He is mainly hated because he is new and doesn't exactly fit everyone else's vision of the Grey Knights, kinda like sports fans who hate their respective team's coach because he obviously doesn't know how to do his job.

He is hated because he doesn't fit any vision of Grey Knights other than "they are morons".

He also has terrible rules.

I'd rather take a 150 point unit of purifiers into combat than Crow, every single time. If you're going to take him in a Purifier list, take him and isolate him. If he ends up being useful, that's great, but don't try to make him useful, because he generally won't be unless you sacrifice a lot to make him that way.

I think you're overlooking the fact that in a purifier list, he's still an asset.

If you use stormravens to launch an assault, with Crowe in one and a Librarian + Purifiers in the other, the Librarian can summon the Purifiers 'displaced' from their transport by Crowe on the next turn.

That way Crowe is not 150 pts spent merely to get Purifiers as Troops, but a major or minor (depending on tour point of view) headache for your opponent for a turn or two also, as he can assault into one of their key units direct from his stormraven transport. Even if he does not recoup his points (moot and dependent upon who he's fighting), it's better to get him involved than have him sit idle in the rear. and it's better to have him charge than be charge - hence he should be in the first wave.

In all honesty, I think he's one of the more useful unique characters in the GK Codex - people just struggle with the 'sword problem' and the fact he's not an IC.

Treat him as a rather odd unit and he has some merit aside from his 'unlocking Purifiers' ability.

But he's only worth taking (but essential if you are) if you are going to base your army around Purifiers, otherwise I think he is a waste. But he shouldn't be the sole HQ.

sourclams wrote:
What, in the wording of Cleansing Flame, makes you think the psy powers would be anything but simultaneous?

All of it, since psychic powers are necessarily resolved one at a time. Pretty much like anything else.

You can't pause during one instance of Cleansing Flame and say "hold on, before you take your saves I want to do something else."

DarknessEternal wrote:

sourclams wrote:
What, in the wording of Cleansing Flame, makes you think the psy powers would be anything but simultaneous?

All of it, since psychic powers are necessarily resolved one at a time. Pretty much like anything else.

You can't pause during one instance of Cleansing Flame and say "hold on, before you take your saves I want to do something else."

Oh, you mean like multiple flamer/blast templates--oh wait. Or shooting attacks--oh wait. Or attacks at the same initiative value--oh wait.

In short, the way that everything else works suggests that the opposite of that is true.

Artemo wrote:I think you're overlooking the fact that in a purifier list, he's still an asset.

If you use stormravens to launch an assault, with Crowe in one and a Librarian + Purifiers in the other, the Librarian can summon the Purifiers 'displaced' from their transport by Crowe on the next turn.

That way Crowe is not 150 pts spent merely to get Purifiers as Troops, but a major or minor (depending on tour point of view) headache for your opponent for a turn or two also, as he can assault into one of their key units direct from his stormraven transport. Even if he does not recoup his points (moot and dependent upon who he's fighting), it's better to get him involved than have him sit idle in the rear. and it's better to have him charge than be charge - hence he should be in the first wave.

In all honesty, I think he's one of the more useful unique characters in the GK Codex - people just struggle with the 'sword problem' and the fact he's not an IC.

Treat him as a rather odd unit and he has some merit aside from his 'unlocking Purifiers' ability.

But he's only worth taking (but essential if you are) if you are going to base your army around Purifiers, otherwise I think he is a waste. But he shouldn't be the sole HQ.

Your spending 205+ points for a transport for a bad CC character to assault out of? You advocate running 2 HQs (both 150 or more points) in a army who's basic guy is 20? Sorry, Crowe + Librarian + 2 storm ravens is already over 700 pts. What the heck does the rest of the army look like? 2 units of purifiers and not much else?

The problem with Crowe is he he is both the Purifier special character, and the brotherhood champion. Brotherhood champions have awful rules for the most part, with the perfect warrior being nice in theory, bad on the table. Normal Champions get to at least confer reroll to hit on the squad he is joined to. Crowe can't join squads, and confers reroll to enemies. He also lacks a force weapon, which is only a small penalty considering that he has other useful powers.

How I would use him? Hide him in reserve, when he comes in there might be some enemies near your deployment zone by then. He can hop into some empty transport, like a razorback or chimera purchased for a unit that doesn't need it, and act as a fairly decent counter strike unit against weakened or weak units.

That being said, I don't think your really need him in a list, purifiers as troops IMHO is most useful if you want to use the elite slots for other things (strike squads are perfectly fine, and have their advantages). Since only ven dreads or assassins really appeal to me in elites (and I wouldn't run more than 1 assassin) I only see the utility if you are taking dreadknights, land raiders, or purgation squads, and still want riffleman dreads + purifiers.

sourclams wrote:
Oh, you mean like multiple flamer/blast templates--oh wait. Or shooting attacks--oh wait. Or attacks at the same initiative value--oh wait.

Those are all from the same unit, except for assaults. 2 Cleansing Flames from 2 units of Purifiers are not.

Using it like that would be like shooting a flamer from one unit, calculating hits, then shooting a flamer from another unit, calculate hits, then roll saves. This is expressly against the rules.

Assault rules tell us what happens in Initiative order, so that doesn't apply either.

So the real distinction is whether 'before any blows are struck' is simultaneous (effective I11), or not.

It's less like shooting a flamer from one unit, calculating hits/wounds, rinse repeat, and more like two lash sorcerors in the same unit attempting to lash the same target.

FAQ-worthy to say the least, but I still stand by normal combat conventions and other 'at the same time' abilities allowing multiple cleansing flames to do a giant god-nuke at meta-I11.

ph34r wrote:He also has terrible rules.

don't forget the static boring model

IMHO he is a one man Tarpit... a re-rollable 2+/4++ save that can fight at I11 with cleansing flame seems kinda cool...

Also, throwing Ghazzl at him is risky because if he saves the cleansing flame, Ghazz can become in instant casualty. (sadly this term will probably becoming more common)

Stella Cadente wrote:

ph34r wrote:He also has terrible rules.

don't forget the static boring model

I do agree that he could have been more epic.


I want someone to do a diarama of Crowe slicing a Bloodthirsters head clean off!!!

QuietOrkmi wrote:
Also, throwing Ghazzl at him is risky because if he saves the cleansing flame, Ghazz can become in instant casualty. (sadly this term will probably becoming more common)

How that, Ghazz is EW and not a Deamon/Psyker. The only way Crowe can take him out in one turn is Charging with Repier Strike, rolling a 3, hitting with all 4 attacks as rending, and thats only if Ghazz didn't use Prophet of the Waaagh!!!, or hoping you haven't use a Psy power that turn like Cleansing Flame or you can't use Heroic Sacrifice(and you still need base to base).

Ghaz would be an idiot to use his 2++ save just to kill Crowe.


afterwards, he is defensless against all those Power Weapons he willl be taking.

Grey Templar wrote:Ghaz would be an idiot to use his 2++ save just to kill Crowe.


afterwards, he is defensless against all those Power Weapons he willl be taking.

Wait the Blade of Antwyr is a PW were dose it say that? He rends on 4+ he dosen't have a PW. So Crowe hits with 4 attacks all must hit and wound or Crowe dies becouse he gave up reolling save for the chance to hit.

I meant the purifiers who will be all over him after he smashes Crowe.

and the blade of Antwyr might as well be a power weapon as Crowe won't be wounding much on better then a 4+ anyway.

Grey Templar wrote:I meant the purifiers who will be all over him after he smashes Crowe.

and the blade of Antwyr might as well be a power weapon as Crowe won't be wounding much on better then a 4+ anyway.

While thats true that isn't what the guy I quoted was saying. I was pointins out that assaults vs. EW PW IDing models is a bad idea for Crowe. Unless of coruse you have no more use for him, becouse the only way Crowe has to deal with them is by dieing.

Crowe is a tarpit model that can actually kill the things he is tarpitting.


Now, Ghaz is a bad example of a counter because Ghaz pretty much smashes anything.


Crowe is for tying that boy mob up for a couple turns while the rest of the purifiers obliterate the ork army.

Grey Templar wrote:Crowe is a tarpit model that can actually kill the things he is tarpitting.


Now, Ghaz is a bad example of a counter because Ghaz pretty much smashes anything.


Crowe is for tying that boy mob up for a couple turns while the rest of the purifiers obliterate the ork army.

I know see my first post pg1. I point out his major flaws then say how good he is as a tarpit. But, when people give plan bad advice about his use I have to say something. I you know you weakness your less like to suffer becouse of it. I plan on Crowe and Coteaz as my army, Crowe not only for the Purifier but becouse the challange of playing him. So I want Crowe played a lot and kicking ass, that way when people go "Haha, he gives FC and reroll to hit to guys charging him, he sucks", then after he stomps a whole units face in we get to laugh at them.

...yeah... that won't happen. He'll either take a Lascannon to the face early on, or he'll be easily killed off by a unit like Assault Terminators, praying on his 2/3rd chance to even do any damage.

if he dies early on it really doesn't matter.

he's pretty cheap and has already served his purpose

*looks at 50 purifiers on table

Well, unless it's a KP game. Then he's just a free KP.

Of course, with all those purifiers on the table you shouldn't have to worry too much.

But the issue is when you try to actually make him useful. Because most of the time, he really isn't.

Fafnir wrote:...yeah... that won't happen. He'll either take a Lascannon to the face early on, or he'll be easily killed off by a unit like Assault Terminators, praying on his 2/3rd chance to even do any damage.

Only if there nothing on the table, cover and no LOS make it harder. Go ahead and kill him its wont be easy, and its not like the rest of my army will be in your face by that time. 150 point that could do nothing or get shot to hell if caught in the open or the rest of army coming for you that WILL wreak you, I will be happy for them to foucs on Crowe. Then if they don't go for Crowe, well.......

He's everything that's wrong with the new Grey Knights.

Terrible idea (GK wouldn't even set foot on a table with an Inquisitor who used a daemonhost last Codex - but now they're carrying a daemonsword around with them!?)

Childlike one-upmanship fluff (so, like, he's this super bad-ass hero from a super bad-ass Chapter of super bad-ass Space Marines which are, like, super bad-ass supermen. Oh and he has a magic sword, or something...)

Awful rules (he's on his own, he can be insta-gibbed, anyone charging him can knobble him and multi-assault to rip through more of your army).

He's essentially why I've given up on my Grey Knights/Daemonhunters army for good.

What I was talking about was you have to think before assaulting him with powerful IC such as Ghazghkull because he can withhold his cleansing flame, switch to re-reoll failed armor saves and invulnerable, then when Ghaz kills Crowe, He uses the psychic power to remove Ghaz a casualty...

Remove as a casualty is not Instant death as far as I know... (If it is then great but if not...)

You guys do know that he can switch to the stance where he re-rolls his saves and lets the cleansing flame be his Combat resolution...

Noir wrote:

QuietOrkmi wrote:
Also, throwing Ghazzl at him is risky because if he saves the cleansing flame, Ghazz can become in instant casualty. (sadly this term will probably becoming more common)

How that, Ghazz is EW and not a Deamon/Psyker. The only way Crowe can take him out in one turn is Charging with Repier Strike, rolling a 3, hitting with all 4 attacks as rending, and thats only if Ghazz didn't use Prophet of the Waaagh!!!, or hoping you haven't use a Psy power that turn like Cleansing Flame or you can't use Heroic Sacrifice(and you still need base to base).

If you already knew about Heroic Sacrifice, why did you sound so indignantly shocked that Crow can one-shot Ghazkgull?

Just for a little more info incase anyone missed it crowe can re-roll all hits and wounds since he has titans herald and perfect warrior

Is that on top of being able to hit everyone in combat with him if he does not go "re-roll saves"?

QuietOrkmi wrote:Is that on top of being able to hit everyone in combat with him if he does not go "re-roll saves"?

im pretty sure he always get its no matter what stance he chooses but it doesn't effect his psychic powers unfortunately.

Alphacerberus wrote:Just for a little more info incase anyone missed it crowe can re-roll all hits and wounds since he has titans herald and perfect warrior

He doesn't have Anointed Blade, so no rerolls for wounds.

Grey Templar wrote:if he dies early on it really doesn't matter.

he's pretty cheap and has already served his purpose

*looks at 50 purifiers on table

Pretty much.

He has uses besides the purifiers. He is good against horde units. He is good to send in against a wounded MC. He is a good assassin to send up against very expensive CC monsters like Meph, Logan, or Ghaz. The only really good counter at a really good point cost to use against Crowe is a single lascannon to the face as he is T4 with no IC or EW. Splat, deaded, brought the right tool for the right job. If Crowe does eat a lascannon to the face and dies a very inglorious death it brings us back to point #1: He main purpose is to put mass purifiers as troops on the table.

Which he does very well. But after that, he's a write-off.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Alphacerberus wrote:Just for a little more info incase anyone missed it crowe can re-roll all hits and wounds since he has titans herald and perfect warrior

He doesn't have Anointed Blade, so no rerolls for wounds.

yeah i made a mix up with the rules and just checked the entry for some reason i thought titans herald gave him it xD my mistake

If people don't like Crowe they don't have to take him.

A grandmaster, or double grandmaster list depending on the size of the game with 3 units of purifiers wouldn't need Crowe to make the purifiers troops.

this is true,

although people may want to run more then 3 units of Purifiers.

I wonder if GW messed up not making him an IC, they made Brotherhood Champions IC's, but not Crowe?

I think they made the right move by not making him an IC... He reminds me a little bit of the Lord of Death... Crowe is just the Lord of the Pit (The Tar Pit)... If he was an IC he could join any unit and be very obnoxious...

What would you assault the Lord of the Pit with? What would you use to overcome the 2+/4++ re-rollable save when you have to roll armor saves for half your models? So far every answer is just to shoot him... Imagine for a minute that is not an acceptable answer because he is in a unit...