I have never played Fantasy before but i own some Vampire Counts that are mostly assembled and all unpainted.

Ive wanted to play Fantasy but noone around plays it and my Local hobby store moved location and didnt want us playing there anymore so they destroyed our tables we paid for and designed.

How is fantasy?

I was wondering if i should keep my models in hopes of finding a store to try fantasy in or if i should just put them up in the swap shop?

I'd take it over 40K anyday. It takes a more focused battle plan to win, as opposed to 'I've got better guns' routine I find alot in 40k. I also find it more visually appealing to see a rank and file army lined up on the table over the sporadic units and tanks.

Vampire Counts are a fun army. Easy to start, tough to master. I'd give it a shot, play a couple small games. If its not you, then swap them out. Ya never know...

The only thing i have bad to say about Vamps is that some of the models are hard as hell to assemble. Like the grave guard and the skeletons.

It could just be me because i do have shaky hands, but i could never put together a single skeleton type unit.

I struggled with skeletons for a long time. I spent more time on my hands and knees fishing torsos out of dust bunnies than I did actually assembling. But in the end, here's what worked for me:

You'll need
- Either a Dremel tool with a small drill bit or a pin vise drill doohicky. I'll have to look up the exact bit size.
- Floral wire from Michael's or similar craftin' granny store. The stiff green wires that are bundled in the straight packs are what I use.
- Clippers.

Just drill a small hole in the bottom of the torso and the top of the leg section's spinal column. Clip off a small bit of wire, glue it into the leg hole. Once dry, glue the torso on top! Bingo Bango, the rest is easy once you have a secure base.

I did 15 skeletons in the time it used to take me to assemble 1 with my meat hands.

sounds annoying as hell lol

Is there anywhere i can play 40k online or anything? ive heard of vassal but idk anything about it ( reason why i ask 40K is because idk any of the rules for fantasy )

Im finishing up some gouls at the moment for my vc, other than that i think im done with putting them together, just gotta glue a part of the corpse cart down.

Just stick to ghouls if you want, they are pretty competitive as well.

i have i think 20 ghouls lol.

they are easier to put together too ^_^

except for this morning when i was shaving some of the excess off them after cutting them off the sprue.

I sliced the hell out of my thumb.

Fantasy is currently a mess. Most fantasy players in my area have dropped it and when I do see someone playing they don't look like they are having fun at all. The new terrain rules are stupid and an obvious money grab to get people to buy stuff that will typically have little effect on the game. Actual line of sight results in silly things like wizards shooting giant fireballs harmlessly through three units to hit the enemy; the entire field is effectively empty unless you buy giant buildings capable of entirely blocking sight to stuff. Artillery is stupid and that fancy giant monster with a character on top is now a liability since he will be one shot first turn unless you get lucky with ward saves (you better have given him one).

Victory conditions are terrible: your opponent has a huge 600 point unit that you killed down to one man which fled and can't rally except on snake eyes. Well you get no credit for that unless he escapes the board. The missions are all terrible except for standard "kill other side" and the banner breakpoint one.

The magic system, while at its core is actually pretty good now has ridiculous spells that decimate units and are not nearly as hard to cast as the developers thought they would be. Sitting a wizard in a building then hookshoting templates which kill things on an average 50% chance into combat and not hitting your side is absurd.

Steadfast is poorly thought out and results in boring grindfests where two units sit in the middle of the table until one person just gets unlucky. If it was negated by flank charges it would have been fine but they went overboard. Similarly if units like undead or demons enter a building it is literally impossible to get them out without killing every single one.



In regards to Vampire Counts they are currently a broken army. They can not take advantage of the new movement rules which benefit from leadership values unless they are within general range, a whopping 12 inches because their leadership is so bad across the board. The only decent core they have (ghouls) do not even have command groups so they can't use the new musician rules anyway. Fear has been nerfed to uselessness so that is a nonfactor. Additionally their crumble rule was overridden with the new instability rule which is much worse (no regen or ward saves against it). Dire wolves had their fast cav status removed for no reason I can see and Fel Bats will never move their full flight range since undead can't march outside of general range; even if they could they will never be able to pass a march block test consistently. Basically you are relegated to a few units (Grave Guard are still possibly the best infantry unit in the game) and have to take a bunch of useless core slots you don't want. You can squeak out a functional list but it will probably include mostly ghoul units (which will be outmaneuvered by every other army), a big graveguard block, the crown of command and whatever small amount of stuff you can fit in afterward which is boring as hell.

well idk any of fantasys rules. like i said ive never played a fantasy match ever. i have some wolves 2 boxes of gouls, some zombies, a cart, and a lord.

Yeah I was just getting at that Fantasy is pretty bad right now and not to bother with it until some more army books come out to see where they are going with it. 8th edition is very poor and opened up a lot of problems that are easily exploitable so the game typically degenerates into who found the most ridiculous combo the designers missed. Additionally rather than make quick army lists that work "ok" like they did with Ravening Hordes back when they rolled out 6th edition they just made some quick faqs and let certain armies (notably Wood Elves) flounder until they get around to writing a book in three years (maybe who knows? it's been almost a year since 8th was rolled out and we have an Orc book which is barely an upgrade to the last one).

If you are a 40k player just stick with that since it's a much better designed game which sucks to say as a person that was hardcore into Fantasy even during the low point of 7th edition.

Ixquic wrote:
In regards to Vampire Counts they are currently a broken army. They can not take advantage of the new movement rules which benefit from leadership values unless they are within general range, a whopping 12 inches because their leadership is so bad across the board.

Wrooooooong. They can also march if they're within 6 of any unit with the 'vampire' rule. That includes Blood Knights, Black Coaches and Varghulf, as well as Vampires and Vampire lords.

Ixquic wrote:The only decent core they have (ghouls) do not even have command groups so they can't use the new musician rules anyway.

Sure, except Skeleton Warriors are the best bunker unit you have and zombies can be raised cheaply and numerously. Also they don't count towards core points but you're ignoring the awesome power of Corpse Carts.

Ixquic wrote:Additionally their crumble rule was overridden with the new instability rule which is much worse (no regen or ward saves against it).

Wrong wrong, wrong wrong wrong wroooong. You're thinking of Daemons of Chaos, Demonic Instability. Armour saves aren't allowed, but ward and regeneration is.

sounds like the game is a little out of whack just from what im hearing here.

Squash wrote:

Ixquic wrote:
In regards to Vampire Counts they are currently a broken army. They can not take advantage of the new movement rules which benefit from leadership values unless they are within general range, a whopping 12 inches because their leadership is so bad across the board.

Wrooooooong. They can also march if they're within 6 of any unit with the 'vampire' rule. That includes Blood Knights, Black Coaches and Varghulf, as well as Vampires and Vampire lords.

Ixquic wrote:The only decent core they have (ghouls) do not even have command groups so they can't use the new musician rules anyway.

Sure, except Skeleton Warriors are the best bunker unit you have and zombies can be raised cheaply and numerously. Also they don't count towards core points but you're ignoring the awesome power of Corpse Carts.

Ixquic wrote:Additionally their crumble rule was overridden with the new instability rule which is much worse (no regen or ward saves against it).

Wrong wrong, wrong wrong wrong wroooong. You're thinking of Daemons of Chaos, Demonic Instability. Armour saves aren't allowed, but ward and regeneration is.

Yeah you're pretty much 100% wrong on all counts. First I said new movement rules not their old marching restriction (which was unaffected by leadership), such as swift reforms or changing facing to a unit that flanked you which require a leadership test to pass. With leadership values ranging from 1-6 (with 6 being the elites of the army) you will rarely be able to take advantage of that and never reliably outside of general range or without a Wight King in the unit. Even if you have a hero Vampire in the unit, their leadership is the baseline standard of 7 so that makes them only as good as generic Empire statetroops in that regard.

I have no idea why you think that Skeletons are a great bunker. At 8 points a pop for the statline of a goblin they are pricey and fragile, especially to artillery fire. Zombies are not nearly the tarpit they once were now that two, three and sometimes four ranks of attacks can be directed at them. The new winds of magic makes a strong magic phase much less reliable, even with the Master of the Black Arts (+2 dice) ability and single dice invocations are not a reasonable option when there is a 1/3 chance to fail and that results in that caster being unable to cast for the rest of the turn. With a max of 12 dice per phase you will get 6 reliable casts, a third of which will probably be shut down. So four successful invocates are not going to swamp down most enemies unless they are very basic troopers. A corpse cart is a pricey 100 points and doesn't count for core and after heroes and required special you have very little left to spare so it is costly for one extra model per invocation and with the new way that bound spells work you have to use your precious casting dice to get its ASF spell off reducing its usefulness.

Lastly you need to check out the faqs.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490283a_FAQ_VampireCounts_V1_3.pdf

Page 33 – Break tests
Change to “All Undead units have the Unbreakable and
Unstable special rules.”

New unstable does not allow for saves of any kind.

I must say that Ixquic is one of few people i've met who say 8th edition is terrible. I don't think it's great, but it's far from the mess it's being made out to be.

Artillery is fine. So you lost partials, 40k already has that; and cannons no longer guess, apart from the fact that nearly everyone who used guess-range weapons prior to 8th edition got the hang of being pretty damn accurate most the time, it's a bit of an annoyance.

Victory conditions can be ignored in favour of good old Victory Points, you don't have to play them unless it's in a tournament that says so; the same goes for the random terrain rules, very few people I know like them, even fewer use them.

Magic is quite broken but usually relies on a single lord-level caster like Teclis or a Slann; if you can kill them then they lose a large chunk of points, and a lot of the effectiveness of the opposing army dies with them. They're just sturdier glass cannons (pyrex cannons?). However, since most books have a decent amount of magic/magic defense, this often goes both ways, with two magic-heavy lists (not uncommon in 8th) battling for magical superiority.

Steadfast units are fine. It's a very realistic representation, if you have more guys than the enemy then why would you run? Without steadfast, all you'd have is Killy unit A attacking horde unit B, killing a handful and taking 1 or 2 casualties in return then watching the horde unit panic and get run down. Steadfast might not be amazing, but when it comes down to it, it's the lesser evil.

As for older armies, I heavily doubt woodies will take 3 years. Everyone knows that woodies are next to unplayable in 8th, and an army that is unplayable doesn't make sales. It's in GW's best interests to re-do the army as soon as possible to get people back to their treehuggers.

40k doesn't have units that are in tightly packed formations. A template in fantasy can easily hit 16 models and often more; 30 with the large blast. It's not just the loss of partials, but the loss of guess made catapults 100% accurate one third of the time. I don't care how good people are at guessing, there is no way they are putting down templates to get the absolute maximum amount of models hit from 3-4 feet away. Look at the template example in the 7th edition book; there is no way anyone is placing a template like that on a unit across the board every time; that is what removing guessing allows you to do. Additionally before being an inch or two off with a cannon guess could make a big difference. Now everyone guesses 7.5" from the target (or whatever the statistically best location for the first guess to be is) every time which is stupid.

Saying that you can ignore parts of the the game that suck (victory conditions, terrain) doesn't really speak for the game's quality...

You don't need a super character caster to break the magic system. A level 4 with a few magic items and access to the new college lores is all you need. Magic defense is much more rare than overwhelming magic offense with a few specific examples (like the 2+ magic ward banner the High Elves have).

Like I said, steadfast would be fine if negating ranks canceled it.

I'm also not sure where you are getting this confidence in a speedy release of books. Wood Elves, Tomb Kings and Brettonia went a full edition with no new book. On the 40k side Witch hunters and Necrons are still using books from two editions ago and people are already starting to think about 6th edition. We are almost a year from when Fantasy 8th was released and we have ONE book and it isn't a radical departure from its 7th edition version.

Avatar 720 wrote:I must say that Ixquic is one of few people i've met who say 8th edition is terrible. I don't think it's great, but it's far from the mess it's being made out to be.

This, new 8th rules actually see more people playing fantasy where i am.

There are a few "annoying" things I really dont like about 8th edition, However it fixed a lot more things I absolutely hated about 7th.

Random charges are the best thing ever, no more sitting 7-8 inches outside dwarves and laughing.

No more guess ranges make some armies less of a barrier for new players. Guessing ranges was not "skill" or "tactics" it was carpentry.

Steadfast is a move in the right direction, currently I think its a little to good, but its better then the alternative, which was charge big block with dragon, win combat by 1 or 2, and break the unit, repeat.

Magic is kinda meh. in 7th you took a scroll caddy or two and had nothing to worry about. Now without a level 4 certain armies are going to get decimated in the magic phase. You kind of need that level four to have a shot at dispelling some casters. Course it is kind of nice that you dont have to cast through 2-4 dispell scrolls before finally landing a spell.

Percentile system owns the hell out of the slot system

Overall 8th did some great things for the game, most of the people I have found that hate it are refusing to change up their 7th edition lists or still playing with the 7th edition mentaility.

I definitely agree that the percentage system is much better than the slot system.

If the magic system didn't have the broken spells like Dwellers from Below, Purple Sun and whatever the big Gold spell is it would be awesome.

Guessing wasn't about skill it was stopping perfect placement and increasing randomness. Removing it unbalanced artillery to a huge degree although it seems with the new Orc book they will be rarer. Once Empire comes out it we can see if spamable mortars will still be an issue.

It's a bummer since they took one step forward in a lot of respects and then two back.

Ixquic wrote:I definitely agree that the percentage system is much better than the slot system.

If the magic system didn't have the broken spells like Dwellers from Below, Purple Sun and whatever the big Gold spell is it would be awesome.

Guessing wasn't about skill it was stopping perfect placement and increasing randomness. Removing it unbalanced artillery to a huge degree although it seems with the new Orc book they will be rarer. Once Empire comes out it we can see if spamable mortars will still be an issue.

It's a bummer since they took one step forward in a lot of respects and then two back.

Im thinking GW is trying to phase out gunlines in the new books. Look at the Ardboyz scenarios. They are literally daring you to take a gunline lol.

Im all for gunlines going away tbh. They are neither fun to play, or play against imo.

ShivanAngel wrote:
Im all for gunlines going away tbh. They are neither fun to play, or play against imo.

I am 100% with you on this.

I play fantasy and I think the game is broken in many regards. I play Lizardmen. last game I played (4,000 points) was me versus Orks and Hordes of Chaos allied against me. I ended up actually conceding defeat in turn 7, not because I had lost the game per se, but because I really just wasn't having fun and didn't want to deal with the mess of the terrain and the final battle of my horde unit versus theirs. Every magic phase is completely random and the magic lores are hardly balanced. Chaos apparently has a spell that doesn't allow any unit to use any character leadership values, for the whole army. I am sorry, no spell should ever target a whole army, that is just dumb. I had a slaan, and old blood, and a scar vet in a Saurus horde unit sitting behind a marsh, which was dangerous terrain. Had I not quit I would have just sat there and widdled down the chaos warrior unit down until they were forced to charge me through the marsh. I did not feel like playing 4 more turns of the same old boring stuff. So, I decided to concede. I would say the game was pretty even when I quit playing. I simply quit because I had no desire to finish the game.

The first few turns we played my skinks with their blow guns wiped out tons of gobbos, and even some chaos knights since they got poisoned weapons and get 2 shots per a model. The game was looking in my favor. This is why I conceded the game and this is why I dislike fantasy. I wiped out a whole unit of boar boyz, except for their main character some new Orc speical character. Who then proceeded to wipe out whole units of sauruses. I managed to wipe out over half their army and they had 3 characters wipe out half of mine. That is just dumb. One character should never be that powerful. In 40K if one guy assaults a unit of 30 models, that one guy would die, in fantasy if you cheesed his gear or his rules are cheese enough you survive.

The new terrain rules are dumb, we don't even use them. The new magic system is OK, but on an Army that relies on Magic it can suck since it is random. I also don't like the ultimate power/dispell rules. Then since characters get armor saves, ward saves, and regeneration saves, it just makes them too powerful. I think the casting value for certain spells is also extremely unbalanced, and very much broken.

Overall, fantasy is my least favorite game right now. Hopefully new army books will fix some things, but I think so many things in WHFB are heavily broken right now, and I find my lizardmen army very very boring. All my games involve me wiping out over half the other person's army then getting caught in a tar pit unit where characters are so powerful they cancel each other out and you get like 10 thousand rounds of combat. Really there isn't much strategy past your army list in fantasy. You build your army, you march up it, you roll some dice, and that is it. Just make sure you don't get flanked and make sure you pick the right combo of magic items to kill your foe.

Whfb 8th ed is by far the best and most fun whfb edition ever since i started playing the game in 1998 (5th ed). It has revitalized fantasy in my area from the imbalanced mess that was 7th. It IS a different game in many ways from 7th, and many players cannot adjust to it, hence the hate, BUT if you look at several polls the majority who responded like 8th. The silent majority.

If you are a 40k player then i believe you will find 8th ed a good change of pace. The good thing is that you will be starting fresh and unbiased, so try it out.

freddieyu1 wrote:Whfb 8th ed is by far the best and most fun whfb edition ever since i started playing the game in 1998 (5th ed). It has revitalized fantasy in my area from the imbalanced mess that was 7th. It IS a different game in many ways from 7th, and many players cannot adjust to it, hence the hate, BUT if you look at several polls the majority who responded like 8th. The silent majority.

If you are a 40k player then i believe you will find 8th ed a good change of pace. The good thing is that you will be starting fresh and unbiased, so try it out.

I played 3rd and 4th edition, then stopped for years and got back into it right when 8th edition came out. So I have no experience with editions 5 through 7. No bias against them either. I find a lot of imbalance and impracticality in 8th edition. For one, the magic lores and the spell casting values are far from balanced. Since I play lizardmen and have Initiative 1 on so many of my troops, any initiative based magic is pretty much instant death. I think the miscast table is also dumb, but I usually play a life Slaan with a cupped hands, so it isn't a huge deal for me.

Heroes and Lords are still heavily broke, just a bit more toned down from 4th edition. They now have point limits on items, and have restrictions on what items they can take. However, a hero charter should never be able to wipe out a whole unit of 30 well armed core troops or elites. I guess they are special and rare in WHFB, but you get my drift. I also hate the victory conditions and the turn limitations. So many times I wipe out over half an army and take minimal losses, plus with life magic they rise from their graves. A character who is leading a unit into battle and that whole unit but the character gets wiped, that character should suffer some penalty from losing that weight, and losing that many comrades.

Also, multiple combats combined into one combat can be a freaking mess, then you have conflicting rules. It just seems to always take 5 times as long to play a fantasy game. Then there are certain things that just don't sit right with me. The always strike first rule + higher initiative means you get to reroll misses? So, you are giving basically high initiative armies like elves, a free magic item or ability to allow reroll misses.

Multiple saves are also dumb. Last game there were two units on the other side that had 2+ magic ward saves. Yeah that is really balanced to a horde of Chaos warriors with halberds and frenzy. I think GW just made fantasy too convoluted, and there are too many rules which overlap and there are too many things that cause imbalance.

I like the way GW went with 40K from 2nd to 5th. They took out a lot of the cheese from characters. You think characters in 40K now are tough, go back and read RT or 2nd Edition. Where you could give a hero character a 2+ invulnerable save and terminator armor, so they had a 2+ armor save on 2D6, and could take both saves.

My biggest beef with 8th edition is the army list structure and the magic system. I think a lot of spells are extremely imbalanced of cost to cast versus what you get, and that the randomness is really not all that great. Out of the couple dozen games I have played since 8th edition came out, I cannot really recall ever having a single good magic phase where I was like that was awesome.

The only Lord level characters I see going against a single unit and coming out victorious are the greater deamons.

Most other lord level characters fall under the shear number of attacks.

Course, greater daemons at over 600 points should be able to take out a 300 point unit of core. Course a 90 point cannon can also one shot them.

I agree, Warhammer is a complete mess. There are some good ideas put forth by the most recent ruleset, but they've been implemented very poorly. Strategy is at an absolute minimum, and the game is decided heavily by list building (even more than it was in 7th Edition, where it was already a problem) and dumb luck. My gaming group used to host between 5-10 games of Warhammer each week. Now we're struggling to support more than 2. Most of our players played 8th Edition for about a month, realized that they weren't having any fun with it, and started playing HordeMachine, Malifaux, Infinity or 40k.

Between 40k and Fantasy, I would choose 40k in a heartbeat. As much as I love the concept of WHFB, the game is in a bad place right now. It has an identity crisis, unsure of what it wants to be, and it needs a new designer to come in and rework things from the ground up (much as what we saw between 5th and 6th edition). As it stands, WHFB isn't fit for competitive play, and it isn't fun enough to be a casual game. It's just kind of...there. Functional, but only just.

I dunno about you folks, but over here we have had already 2 mini tourneys, and am about to start a gladiator league (7 game eliminations over 7 weeks, top players from each sector will duel it out in a knock out finals)...

So far 8th has revitalized whfb, and those involved are having fun, and we are getting more players starting whfb (although majority of guys are 40k players).

This is much better than 7th, which was basically dead dead dead....5th and 6th was the peak of whfb over here, but now it's getting back with 8th ed.

So I guess it depends on your playing areas. We are luckier over here then.

freddieyu1 wrote:Whfb 8th ed is by far the best and most fun whfb edition ever since i started playing the game in 1998 (5th ed). It has revitalized fantasy in my area from the imbalanced mess that was 7th. It IS a different game in many ways from 7th, and many players cannot adjust to it, hence the hate, BUT if you look at several polls the majority who responded like 8th. The silent majority.

If you are a 40k player then i believe you will find 8th ed a good change of pace. The good thing is that you will be starting fresh and unbiased, so try it out.

I've played since 4th edition, skipped 6th, got back in at the start of 7th and watched the game degrade after Demons came out. 8th is fun if you like making a list revolving around an overpowered aspect of the game, then shoving models straight ahead into the meat grinder and placing templates since strategy is irrelevant when everything that matters is stubborn and terrain is meaningless.

Say what you will about certain armies being broken in 7th (they totally were) it's an overall better game.

SkaerKrow wrote:I agree, Warhammer is a complete mess. There are some good ideas put forth by the most recent ruleset, but they've been implemented very poorly. Strategy is at an absolute minimum, and the game is decided heavily by list building (even more than it was in 7th Edition, where it was already a problem) and dumb luck. My gaming group used to host between 5-10 games of Warhammer each week. Now we're struggling to support more than 2. Most of our players played 8th Edition for about a month, realized that they weren't having any fun with it, and started playing HordeMachine, Malifaux, Infinity or 40k.

Between 40k and Fantasy, I would choose 40k in a heartbeat. As much as I love the concept of WHFB, the game is in a bad place right now. It has an identity crisis, unsure of what it wants to be, and it needs a new designer to come in and rework things from the ground up (much as what we saw between 5th and 6th edition). As it stands, WHFB isn't fit for competitive play, and it isn't fun enough to be a casual game. It's just kind of...there. Functional, but only just.

This is pretty much how I feel. There used to be a huge Fantasy community in my area but it started to die off during the second half of 7th edition when the game got stupid. People came back for 8th but quickly learned it was full of even more unbalanced problems and now you can't find a game.

thats the one thing about fantasy that i dont think would effect me since ive never played, i dont have any biases on previous editions. the only sad part is everyone else does so they will either rage, or destroy me.

Also my gaming store closed down so i have nowhere to go to play.

Slipknotsomeone wrote:thats the one thing about fantasy that i dont think would effect me since ive never played, i dont have any biases on previous editions. the only sad part is everyone else does so they will either rage, or destroy me.

Also my gaming store closed down so i have nowhere to go to play.

Too bad....then it's a moot point then....

Ixquic wrote:40k doesn't have units that are in tightly packed formations. A template in fantasy can easily hit 16 models and often more; 30 with the large blast. It's not just the loss of partials, but the loss of guess made catapults 100% accurate one third of the time. I don't care how good people are at guessing, there is no way they are putting down templates to get the absolute maximum amount of models hit from 3-4 feet away. Look at the template example in the 7th edition book; there is no way anyone is placing a template like that on a unit across the board every time; that is what removing guessing allows you to do. Additionally before being an inch or two off with a cannon guess could make a big difference. Now everyone guesses 7.5" from the target (or whatever the statistically best location for the first guess to be is) every time which is stupid.

At the end of the day, stats are just that; stats, numbers. My fire warriors have killed a lot more stuff in melee than they have shooting over the ourse of 10+ games. Statistically that shouldn't ever happen, but it does.

Saying that you can ignore parts of the the game that suck (victory conditions, terrain) doesn't really speak for the game's quality...

So? At least they're ignorable, which is the point. Don't play them if you don't want to. Lots of people don't like doing all bosses in dungeons on WoW, but a few instances require them to be done, does that make it a better game? I think giving you the ability to ignore them makes it a better game than if you were forced to use them.

[b]You don't need a super character caster to break the magic system. A level 4 with a few magic items and access to the new college lores is all you need. Magic defense is much more rare than overwhelming magic offense with a few specific examples (like the 2+ magic ward banner the High Elves have).[/b]

Bold: Don't remember saying you did. I said it normally relies on a single lord-level caster.

A level 4 with magic items and lore access is what a good number of army books have, Lizards, WoC, Empire all have access to a good number of college lores on their Lords. Can't speak for others though as I don't know their books.

Like I said, steadfast would be fine if negating ranks canceled it.

It's fine as it is to be honest. Might be better if negating ranks killed it, but as the rulebook says, why break ranks and flee if you're outnumbering the enemy?

I'm also not sure where you are getting this confidence in a speedy release of books. Wood Elves, Tomb Kings and Brettonia went a full edition with no new book. On the 40k side Witch hunters and Necrons are still using books from two editions ago and people are already starting to think about 6th edition. We are almost a year from when Fantasy 8th was released and we have ONE book and it isn't a radical departure from its 7th edition version.

Fantasy is better with army books than 40k due to the fact that fantasy doesn't have a flagship race that has to get a new codex every couple of hours or it's doomed. TKs are being re-done as we speak and are close to completion and release. We don't know much about fantasy releases after that, so it's completely open, but logic tells me that woodies, bretts and ogres will be re-done quicker than, Empire or WoC.

ShivanAngel wrote:The only Lord level characters I see going against a single unit and coming out victorious are the greater deamons.

Most other lord level characters fall under the shear number of attacks.

Course, greater daemons at over 600 points should be able to take out a 300 point unit of core. Course a 90 point cannon can also one shot them.

Chaos Lord, on a Juggernaut, with war gear that forces all successful hits against the model to be rerolled, and any roll of a 1 you hit yourself.....can decimate a whole unit. Especially when fighting a low initiative army like Lizards or Dwarves. Orc and Goblin magic that allows them to choose which attribute to test against and it is a stat test or die, and it uses the large template and it remains in play. Cast it with a power scroll, and it will destroy a whole army if done right and you chose the right stuff. So, one level 2 goblin shaman can pretty much wipe out an army. I know the Chaos Lord on the Juggernaut will be some hefty points, so maybe that wasn't the best example. However, there is not much that can kill it.

I think steadfast is great, and I think that the 2D6 charge distance is great. I think movement overall and wheeling with units and the terrain rules make movement dumb. The terrain rules also keep people out of the terrain. In my opinion fantasy is all about cheesing up your Army List and getting good dice rolls, and much less about tactics and the table itself. I mean trying to figure out how a large unit wheels around terrain to charge another unit gets ridiculous.

Overall, fantasy to me seems to have not really evolved, just slightly changed. All the power is in the characters, and with the right combo of magical items you can pretty much just own a whole army. Don't get me wrong I am not saying only certain armies can do that. I have had my fun with an old blood and the blade of realities before. I feel that things like this take out the tactical decisions and strategy and make it feel almost like a role playing game. You are banking on your character models to win. It also seems in almost every game your tarpit unit and the other guy's tarpit unit seems to get stuck in an endless combat. That is just boring, because at that point it is just dice rolls.

I am starting to remember now why I stopped playing GW games for a long time. Though I do like the feel of 5th edition 40K a lot more than 2nd edition 40K. To be honest, in fantasy, I miss the old magic system (spells not the system) because it was way more diverse and made way more sense. The new magic system is just sort of lame.

I love fantasy. Good combos and timing tend to pay off more than in 40k.

The best solution to single model deathstars for us empire players...cannons...there is nothing that cannot be fixed with cannonballs....mwahahaha....

Or helblaster the unit first..once the other expensive juggernauts die, aim a cannon at the character when he cannot have a look out sir roll...

I love the new rules with the engineers...since even helblasters can now reroll a misfire result due to the engineer...

freddieyu1 wrote:The best solution to single model deathstars for us empire players...cannons...there is nothing that cannot be fixed with cannonballs....mwahahaha....

Or helblaster the unit first..once the other expensive juggernauts die, aim a cannon at the character when he cannot have a look out sir roll...

I love the new rules with the engineers...since even helblasters can now reroll a misfire result due to the engineer...

Just give your units ward saves. Shields give a ward save against missile weapons. Stegadons with engine of the gods can give a ward save to all models with in 12 inches. Plus since skirmishers can march and shoot, and all scouts are skirmers, watch them totally take out your war machine crew in the first turn.

I gotta tell you my new MVPs are Skinks. 4 units of 20 skinks with blow pipes skirmishing means I can march and unload 40 shots per a unit. Every roll of a 6 to hit is an automatic wound with jungle poisons.

Crom wrote:

Shields give a ward save against missile weapons.

no they dont.

A single model would have to win combat by a huge margin to have any hope of breaking a stubborn unit of Saurus, that must have been a fluke.

ShivanAngel wrote:

Crom wrote:

Shields give a ward save against missile weapons.

no they dont.

Yes they do, it is called a parry save and is a 6+ ward save, but rereading the rule it looks like it only counts in hand to hand combat.

Crom wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:

Crom wrote:

Shields give a ward save against missile weapons.

no they dont.

Yes they do, it is called a parry save and is a 6+ ward save, but rereading the rule it looks like it only counts in hand to hand combat.

yeah parry is only hand to hand.

I always have a ward save via my Stegadons which is better so I use it. My elites usually use halberds so no shields, and my skirmishers use blow pipes for two shots

Overall, I find fantasy to be far more fun and balanced than 40K. Interestingly, after years of banging the fantasy drum for 6th and the start of 7th edition, it seems that a lot of experienced 40K are starting to take notice of "the other system." Eighth has, in my experience, been a major improvement in terms of fantasy's profile around here. It's still the less-supported of the two, no doubt about that. But now at least people are talking about it.

Personally, my one major gripe about it has been TLOS and missile weapons and spells.

But beyond that, I'm fairly pleased. Far more than I have been with the development of 40K into a very vehicle-centric demolition derby, in fact. I have to admit, I even like the random terrain rules, except when you have three or four different types of forest on one board. As annoying and frustrating as it can be sometimes, the psychological effect of not knowing can create some unique and interesting tactical situations.

As for Lords being able to wade through a bunch of rank and file troops... I'm torn. In my mind, if you put 400 points worth of character and gear up against 300 points of knights, there SHOULD be a legitimate chance for the combat to go either way. That's what the points are for - to balance the relative strengths and weaknesses of individual units. Not taking those things into account in every phase and turn from deployment on isn't a failure of the game system, it's a failure of strategy.

So far in 8th, I've played Tomb Kings, Goblins, Empire, Dwarves, and High Elves. In no situation have I ever felt that I've been doomed from the get-go by any list or vagary of rules. If I've lost, it's been because I made a mistake somewhere on the board - usually in deployment or failing to take into account the range of incantations. I've had FAR better experiences in WHFB than I have in 40K, to the point where I'm not even sure where my marines ARE right now, much less where they are in the painting queue.

When comparing 40K to Fantasy, incidentally, it's a mistake to measure model-to-model. Imperial Guard and Orks excluded, 40K armies aren't the same "wall of beef" model that fantasy is - and always has been - based on. To say that template weapons can't hit the same number of models is a bit misleading when the sizes of squads are so small in 40K and when just about everybody is carrying some form of template weapon to go pick up the mail.

I think it really comes down to preference of lore. Do you prefer scifi or fantasy? As far as rules go, 40K is well more balanced, faster paced, and doesn't have as large impact from bad dice rolls. Roll a snake eyes on your magic phase and you might as well just skip it.

As for the lord characters. here is my problem with them. Last game some Orc Lord special character guy, the one who rides a special war bar had a war banner that gave all units with in 18" his leadership. He charged my stegadon, and tried to kill the stegadon itself. He plus 9 other boar riders. He did 4 wounds to the stegadon total as my armor and ward saves saved the rest. I then proceeded to kill off all 9 of his boar warriors, so he lost the combat by 5, and he passed his leadership test because he is always stubborn or something. Next turn he slaughtered my stegadon, then during his turn he flanked a unit of 35 saurus warriors with a slaan and a spawning champion in them and just proceeded to slaughter them. Since it was on the flank I could only attack back once until I could reform and face him. He was just one guy versus 30 normal guys, one lord mage, and 1 champion. It tied me up for the rest of the game and by the time I killed him there wasn't anything else I could do due to other models or terrain in the way. Whenever a single model, be it a hero on a mount, or a lord character on a mount or on foot, or a monstrous creature and you attack a unit, the unit should be allowed to surround you, because that is what should happen. All those in the back ranks surrounding you should get automatic hits, because there is no way one single model can ever block 30+ spears coming at him. That unit of mine was expensive, near 900 points because of the Slaan and the scar vet. Now since the new magic system is dumb and bad dice rolls mean no magic, and that you can only ever get a maximum of 12 power dice limits you in a larger game.

Oh and he kept trying to challenge me as well, which I wasn't going to do since he had a higher initiative and an always strike first item, which means he gets to reroll misses. Why they stack those rules on top of each other is beyond me. I wasn't going to allow for an overkill on the combat resolution and I wanted to actually strike back. I think the magic system is very broken. Chaos Magic costs nothing to cast, and they have spells that affect whole armies, which is dumb. Me being a Lizardmen player I am pretty much always stuck getting life magic. Having such a low initiative means I am going to take some guaranteed losses, and sometimes they are heavy. I have seen units take out 20 models out of the 30 model unit before in one turn. If I could not resurrect them I would just be hosed.

I have used the same tactics before. You toss one unit or one model at a unit not to beat them in combat, but to tie them up for the whole game if you can. It just pushes out the stale mate, and then you have tarpit units that regenerate, or have really dumb ward saves. At least in 40K there is instant death, and there really isn't any Lord/Hero running around that is that bad ass in 40K.

I guess I don't like the fantasy roleplay aspect of a single wizard or warrior going in and slaying thousands of enemy soldiers. I prefer to be the general and command my overall army to win. I really don't care for any role play aspect of a Lord or Hero character. The lack of missions is also very boring. Every game is pretty much kill points. I am awesome taking out other people's troops and war machines. In fact I annihilate them all the time. I always have trouble taking out lords and heroes that have ridiculous items or special rules. I wipe the unit the lord is with, but then stuck in the same combat for 4 turns trying to kill him.....

To say that template weapons can't hit the same number of models is a bit misleading when the sizes of squads are so small in 40K and when just about everybody is carrying some form of template weapon to go pick up the mail.

There's also the fact that there are a good number of templates ranging from the S4 frag missile to the S9 Demolisher, whereas in Fantasy templates rarely exceed S3-5. Where in 40k a template can wound you on 2s and then instagib you, in fantasy it'll be wounding on 3s and 4s and 5s with a good number of models keeping some form of save. It's only a single model underneath any centre holes of blasts that really takes the full hit.

You also need to factor in the chance for Fantasy template weapons (or the majority of them) to misfire and either not be able to shoot or kill itself.

If you fire a regular stone thrower at a horde of 40 marauders with light armour and shields and hit 15 of them with 1 under the hole included, then you get the following:

1x 2s to kill.
14x 4s to wound

The guy under the hole gets squished and 7 are wounded and proceed to take 5+ armour saves, meaning a grand total of 4.669 dead marauders, which is about 5, and means you've killed just under 1/3 of what you originally hit.

Now, if that was a unit of missile launchers in 40k (assume devastators with MLs, just a neat all-purpose unit that isn't out of the ordinary) vs a unit of 20 gaunts, you'd have 4 missile templates flying around needing 3s to kill.

Since it's hard to mis a tyranid swarm, we can safely assume 2 hits per template (not everybody has the patience to space every single gaunt perfectly). 8 Hits needing 3s to kill yields 5.336 (rounded 6.66 recurring up to 66.7%) dead gaunts.

It was a smaller unit than the marauders, but they still took more casualties.

You should have taken that challenge tbh...

He gets at max, 6 cr, with overkill.

You get 3 for ranks, 1 for banner, and hopefully your slann is your bsb. so your at 5... If that orc did enough to get the wound plus 5 overkill his dice were amazing. However he probly shouldnt so you win the tie with the musician.

Also, whats the rest of your army doing... if one lord level character is holding up an entire 900 point unit for the whole game you are doing something wrong. he should be rear charged, flanked, or something similar and torn to shreds. (or dont invest 900 points into a single unit that can be pitted)

Again the only lord level character I have seen take on full units against competent players is a Thirster, and that is well over 500 points for one lord. (and I wouldnt dare charge him into a slann/TG unit)

AGAIN If a lord is holding up an entire unit for the whole game you need to look at your list or your tactics, cause you are doing something wrong.

Me being a Lizardmen player I am pretty much always stuck getting life magic. Having such a low initiative means I am going to take some guaranteed losses, and sometimes they are heavy.

Then take Lore of Light instead?

I haven't played much 8th at all yet, but I don't like the "top level" spells in the various lores. I think they are just too powerful.

Lore of Heavens. Tell me sincerely that Chain Lightning doesn't suck.

Okay, so you can find an exception. Does that make me wrong about the other lores?
Is Throne of Vines a balanced spell? It's not top level, but it's the spell from life you WANTS.
Perhaps I should have said "certain spells, with a bias towards the higher casting values, are overpowered."

I'm not against powerful magic, per se, but the fact that all you have to do is throw double sixes to get it off irresistably is the problem. If they did away with both miscasts and irresistable force, it might make things better.

Does that make me wrong about the other lores?

Okkam's Mindrazor is situational, Flame Storm is sub-par, Final Transmution is sub-par/balanced, Birona's Timewarp is balanced/slighty undercosted for the primary cast, dwellers below is reasonable/slightly overpowered against armies with S3 or lower, Purple Sun is undercosted for it's primary cast. Transformation of Kadon is slightly undercosted for both casts.

ShivanAngel wrote:You should have taken that challenge tbh...

He gets at max, 6 cr, with overkill.

You get 3 for ranks, 1 for banner, and hopefully your slann is your bsb. so your at 5... If that orc did enough to get the wound plus 5 overkill his dice were amazing. However he probly shouldnt so you win the tie with the musician.

Also, whats the rest of your army doing... if one lord level character is holding up an entire 900 point unit for the whole game you are doing something wrong. he should be rear charged, flanked, or something similar and torn to shreds. (or dont invest 900 points into a single unit that can be pitted)

Again the only lord level character I have seen take on full units against competent players is a Thirster, and that is well over 500 points for one lord. (and I wouldnt dare charge him into a slann/TG unit)

AGAIN If a lord is holding up an entire unit for the whole game you need to look at your list or your tactics, cause you are doing something wrong.

My other unit, which consisted of another Slaan, Temple Guard, an Old blood, a scar vet and a spawning champion with the army battle standard and another magical standard was holding the 40 man horde unit of Chaos warriors, with a lord Tzeench mage, a champion of chaos, and they had a 2+ freaking ward save against all magical attacks.

It was a 4,000 point game, and to be honest, my skinks were the most effective unit on the table. One turn they took out a whole unit of 5 heavy chaos knights. Gotta love jungle poisons. When you are rolling 40 dice at one unit you are gonna get some 6s.

I don't have the army lists availalbe but it was 4,000 points and this is what I took

2x slaan with cupped hands one life one light magic

2x skink priests on ancient stegs with engine of the gods

100 skink skirmishers (5x units of 20)

2x units of 3 salamanders with extra handlers

1x unit of sauraus with spears, shield, champ

1x unit of TG with heroes

1 regular stegadon

I was at a total of like 4,004 points and they let me go over 4 points.

They had:

rock lobber

heavy bolter

black orcs

boar boyz

night gobbos

a massive horde of chaos warriors with some chaos heroes and a lord tzeench mage

several gobbo shamans

unit of chaos knights

chaos shrine

and something else I am not remembering.....like I said I don't have the army lists in front of me.

We rolled terrain, there was a large marsh on one side. I took that side to hide my salamanders in it and shoot him while the skinks danced around and did a ton of blow gun fire, while my block units sat behind the marsh forcing my enemy to come at me. My tactics were, shoot them to hades and back, and then buff and heal with magic, and if opportunity becomes open to do an offensive spell then do so. Ancient stegs were positioned behind cover (buildings and woods) and placed in a fashion which gave my whole army a 5+ ward save.

I took out the night goblins, the other goblins, one goblin mage, the black orks, the ork boyz, the chaos knights with the hero on the juggernaut, all the boar boyz but the stupid lord. Once the frenzied chaos knights with their dumb ward save and their lords got close it was super hard for me to catch up. They also got that spell off that turns my whole army into basic leadership rolls no matter what, which is dumb it affects the WHOLE army.

Like I said, I could have won, but conceded defeat because I just didn't want to drag the game out for another 2 hours to see who won, we had already been playing for like 4 or 5 hours. The game ended with me pretty much destroying all the ork units, half of the giant chaos warrior horde (which would have been the most impossible unit to kill for me that game), and that stupid ork general causing a win in a combine combat between that saurus unit, the chaos shrine, the few black orks left, and like 4 goblins versus my sauraus, slaan, and one unit of salamanders. Oh, and there was an ork chariot in there too. That is was the catalyst. The Orcs charged the salamanders to tie them up for at least one turn, then the chariot flanked, then I flanked the chariot then the stupid orc boos flanks and he was the huge tie breaker since it was all one giant combat.

I lost, that one round due to him flanking me and adding like 5 extra wounds, and canceling out my flank bonus since he flanked my flank. Like I said it was one model, and it was dumb he could just do that. I think I probably could have won the game had I stuck to my plan of forcing them through the marsh and me attacking from outside but at that point I was just tired of playing. Tired of magic never working out, tired of relying on dice rolls, tired of things being caught up in combat for 3+ turns, and so forth.

I think if you outnumber something you should get bonuses to hit and bonuses to wound, that way you cannot charge a single large thing or tough boss type model in to hang up combat for 4 turns. With all the multiple saves they used with spells and gear every hero had armor, ward, and some even had regen on top of that.

Maybe I am just biased, since I do find scifi more fascinating, but I wish GW would scale down fantasy to where characters were support roles instead of demi Gods on the battle field.

and they had a 2+ freaking ward save against all magical attacks.

Do you remember how they gained this? Nothing I can find can give a WoC unit a 2+ ward save against magical attacks...

Avatar 720 wrote:

and they had a 2+ freaking ward save against all magical attacks.

Do you remember how they gained this? Nothing I can find can give a WoC unit a 2+ ward save against magical attacks...

Magic resistance added to a ward save via items banner and abilities I believe. He also did roll awesome on his chaos gifts from the shrine.

Magic Resistance only works against spell damage (not any magical attack), the only chaos banner that gives a ward save is against all attacks in the shooting phase and is a 5+, the shrine at best gives a 4+ ward save. The best ward save he could have is the gift from the shrine + Mark of Tzeentch, which improves it by 1 to 3+.

Avatar 720 wrote:Magic Resistance only works against spell damage (not any magical attack), the only chaos banner that gives a ward save is against all attacks in the shooting phase and is a 5+, the shrine at best gives a 4+ ward save. The best ward save he could have is the gift from the shrine + Mark of Tzeentch, which improves it by 1 to 3+.

I am not 100% familiar with all the Chaos stuff I can just ask him how he got it. I mean it was a friendly game so I highly doubt anyone was cheating. Regardless, I took out at least 50% or more of their army before they could even charge me, so I really out numbered them, but since they had some characters and one mega unit and some spells in play it dragged the game out so long and was so slow. My salamanders were in combat for 4+ turns, and I had 3 of them will a full skink crew versus the Chaos Shrine. When you outnumber something like that you should get bonuses to hit and to wound since you are basically over whelming it with numbers.

I will admit I was on fire with my engine of the Gods ward saves. I passed almost all of them consistently.

In the end the MVPs of the game were the skinks, they took out so much and were so cheap point-wise.


OH and I meant, magic attacks, as in spells, not magical. I actually never got into combat with the Chaos Warrior unit, it was a game of cold war and I was drawing him near my horde block of sauruses. My goal was to get off stone to flesh and/or the WS 10 I 10 light spell and chip away the chaos warriors then have my TG finish them off. At the rate it was going and the terrain lay out it would have taken forever, so I just flipped over my king due to the fact I was completely tired of playing.

Normally we don't play 4,000 point battles either.

Crom wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:Magic Resistance only works against spell damage (not any magical attack), the only chaos banner that gives a ward save is against all attacks in the shooting phase and is a 5+, the shrine at best gives a 4+ ward save. The best ward save he could have is the gift from the shrine + Mark of Tzeentch, which improves it by 1 to 3+.

I am not 100% familiar with all the Chaos stuff I can just ask him how he got it. I mean it was a friendly game so I highly doubt anyone was cheating. Regardless, I took out at least 50% or more of their army before they could even charge me, so I really out numbered them, but since they had some characters and one mega unit and some spells in play it dragged the game out so long and was so slow. My salamanders were in combat for 4+ turns, and I had 3 of them will a full skink crew versus the Chaos Shrine. When you outnumber something like that you should get bonuses to hit and to wound since you are basically over whelming it with numbers.

I will admit I was on fire with my engine of the Gods ward saves. I passed almost all of them consistently.

In the end the MVPs of the game were the skinks, they took out so much and were so cheap point-wise.


OH and I meant, magic attacks, as in spells, not magical. I actually never got into combat with the Chaos Warrior unit, it was a game of cold war and I was drawing him near my horde block of sauruses. My goal was to get off stone to flesh and/or the WS 10 I 10 light spell and chip away the chaos warriors then have my TG finish them off. At the rate it was going and the terrain lay out it would have taken forever, so I just flipped over my king due to the fact I was completely tired of playing.

Normally we don't play 4,000 point battles either.

Maybe he was not cheating, but just "misunderstood" the rules.....

Terrain is alos much friendlier in terms of movement in 8th ed...1 thing I like now is that you can play an a battlefield cluttered with terrain, and this does not slow you down one bit, although it may make you take hits or tests though...

I do want to point out that I totally understand that if you don't enjoy the game, no amount of fanboy boosterism is going to change your mind. My saying "combat is balanced just fine!" isn't going to change how you feel about sending your ranks of sauruses into the mouth of a Cuisinart character. If it isn't fun, it isn't fun.

Myself, I think that there's been a HUGE push on the part of GW for bigger and bigger battles, to the detriment of the game itself. On a 4x6 or 4x8 table, anything over 3000 points a side starts hindering the ability for players to actually use tactics or to implement a real strategy.

Apocalypse has been - in my view - a step backward for the hobby as a whole. The epic scale of full battlefield warfare is better captured by... well... Epic. Of course, I'm also the cranky old fart that prefers Cities of Death games to be played on 4x4 tables with smaller points limits. I like the Necromunda/Mordheimesque balance of paranoia and predatory instincts over the current "throw more armor at it."

But, larger point battles look good on the table (provided you don't get too fussy about having options as to where to move) and in magazines, and it makes GW a lot of money - especially with the new push to more and more plastic sculpts. If rumors are to believed, the Apoc bug will soon dribble over to fantasy, so I'll be in the minority again.

But in all seriousness, with the "get off my lawn" out of my system, if you're not having fun with WHFB (or 40K, for that matter), try scaling back the points a bit and playing it at 1500-2500 for a while. At least in my experience, that's where the fun is.

Strelka wrote:I do want to point out that I totally understand that if you don't enjoy the game, no amount of fanboy boosterism is going to change your mind. My saying "combat is balanced just fine!" isn't going to change how you feel about sending your ranks of sauruses into the mouth of a Cuisinart character. If it isn't fun, it isn't fun.

Myself, I think that there's been a HUGE push on the part of GW for bigger and bigger battles, to the detriment of the game itself. On a 4x6 or 4x8 table, anything over 3000 points a side starts hindering the ability for players to actually use tactics or to implement a real strategy.

Apocalypse has been - in my view - a step backward for the hobby as a whole. The epic scale of full battlefield warfare is better captured by... well... Epic. Of course, I'm also the cranky old fart that prefers Cities of Death games to be played on 4x4 tables with smaller points limits. I like the Necromunda/Mordheimesque balance of paranoia and predatory instincts over the current "throw more armor at it."

But, larger point battles look good on the table (provided you don't get too fussy about having options as to where to move) and in magazines, and it makes GW a lot of money - especially with the new push to more and more plastic sculpts. If rumors are to believed, the Apoc bug will soon dribble over to fantasy, so I'll be in the minority again.

But in all seriousness, with the "get off my lawn" out of my system, if you're not having fun with WHFB (or 40K, for that matter), try scaling back the points a bit and playing it at 1500-2500 for a while. At least in my experience, that's where the fun is.

I agree...makes for faster games as well.......1.5 k for 40k and 2k for whfb seems to be the "optimal" pointage for both systems....

I know it may be seen a dilution of effort, but I wish GW would push warmaster and epic more...I mean don't you think these systems would do better than the LotR/WoTR? I have 2 1.5k warmaster armies (dwarfs and o and g) bought all the way back in the year 2003, but I haven't played a single game yet..due to no opponents...nice little minis though.....and I would love to start epic armaggedon, as I think the rules are good...

sounds like the debate on fantasy is pretty 50-50

freddieyu1 wrote:

I agree...makes for faster games as well.......1.5 k for 40k and 2k for whfb seems to be the "optimal" pointage for both systems....

I'd say 2.5k for WHFB thanks to the percent systems, but other wise I agree.

That said, I'm someone who comes from starting out playing BFGs with my friends(but in 2nd and then 3rd way before Apocalypse was introduced) where 5-6 of us throw down with everything we own.

Slipknotsomeone wrote:sounds like the debate on fantasy is pretty 50-50

It depends on the forum, some are 100/0 in favour, some are 0/100 not in favour.

There's only so much that can be expressed through opinions and anecdotes, really the best thing you can do is find an army you like and ask someone who knows the rules if they could teach you if you were allowed to proxy the models.

If you're into HE/Skaven, then you might even be able to ask a GW manager to walk you through the game. GW love newcomers to systems, and any opportunity to sell a starter set will be jumped on, plus GW managers generally know the rules and won't cheat.

If you like the feel of the rules, ask around for people can help you learn more by playing a few lower point games or help you with your list building (that's our job ).

If you go into it thinking it's going to be terrible, you won't enjoy it. You could be eating the most delicious food on Earth, but if you bite into it having convinced yourself it tastes horrible, it will taste horrible. Go into it with as much of a neutral opinion as possible.

Fantasy in 8th isn't broken. And the Juggerlord isn't unkillable, that stupid re-roll to hit hardly means he's killing whole units. I'm crap with numbers, but Mathammer, real life, and other situations should prove that point. Juggerlord vs 30+ Gors? My money is on the Gors. Herohammer is (thankfully) dead.

As for the game, there's dumb parts of it, certainly. Many changes were made for the sake of making changes. Honestly, my group mixes 7th with 8th, (mostly random charges and musician rules, some of the stuff is wonky crap) But 8th isn't a terrible mess. 1,500-2,500 is, as mentioned, the sweet spot. Hell, I do fine at 1,750-2,000. The game isn't perfect, but it's not a mess. It just tends to be wonky at times.

IMHO, keep the models, WHFB's fun and if you can get a group, it's worth it.

well i have 30 ghouls, 20 zombies, a cart, 2 lords, one mounted on a steed, 10 wolves

i cant remember where i placed my codex for them at the moment. i woud LOVE to play fantasy that way i can play it while im building up my 40k armies.

Oh, and Slipknotsomeone - I can't speak for the VC, but I will say that to me TK is closest to the 40K eldar. Great if EVERY aspect of your game works, but prone to folding like a lawn chair. VC seems slightly more forgiving, but I've never played them or against them, so I don't know for sure.

i almost chose tk as my army instead. but i ended up getting vc

And WHFB is a good break from 40k, without really having to rememorize the "to hit" and the "to wound" charts..1 thing though..even with a strength of 1, you can now wound ANYTHING on a 6....

Im going to post a list of what i have on the army list forum, it isnt much and again i dont know the rules so it wont be impressive either lol.

God i wish my gaming store hadnt closed down.

Well, don't get me wrong, I am not a total hater. I have about 8,000 points of Lizardmen, mostly from 4th edition. I just got back into the game and this local guy was selling all his lizards for like $200 and it was like $700 retail worth of stuff so I just picked it up. I also think limiting the points on Lord characters, their items, and such is a big step needed from 4th edition. I mean you should have seen my 4th edition Slaan, he was basically unstoppable.

I also think 40K had the same problems with special characters and assassins back in the day too. We also do play smaller scale games. This was over spring break and they wanted to play a giant game. We have a 4 x 10 table, but were only playing on a 4 x 8 foot area. I think table size and terrain are huge factors in making the game fun or not in larger games. In smaller games the impact is not so bad.

I still like the game as it is a good break from fantasy. I like collecting and painting my models. I do think that characters are still too over powered, and that magic needs a lot of work to make it more fun and more balanced. I think Lizardmen are a good army and my tactics are pretty solid. The skink skirmishers are amazing for their point cost. March and shoot, quick to fire, 2 shots per a model, aquatic and cold blooded. People tend to ignore them because they are skinks, but if you don't they unleash so much fire.

Crom wrote:I mean you should have seen my 4th edition Slaan, he was basically unstoppable.

Have you seen an 8th edition slann?

(Of course you have, if you play LM, and I don't mind them being powerful- they're the oldest/strongest wizards in the game, after all. But they're still a doozy!)

I don't get this, yes slaan are uber but they pay premium points for that privilege, unlike other units.

RiTides wrote:

Crom wrote:I mean you should have seen my 4th edition Slaan, he was basically unstoppable.

Have you seen an 8th edition slann?

(Of course you have, if you play LM, and I don't mind them being powerful- they're the oldest/strongest wizards in the game, after all. But they're still a doozy!)

4th edition slaan would kick the crap out of 8th. They used to include the saurus carrying the palanquin as part of the model/unit. It had like 6 wounds, 6 attacks, toughness 8, st 6, ws 8 int 7 but back then initiative was more of a pointless stat. Plus they knew all sorts of magic, and had regeneration and a ward save and so much more. Slaan now are super weak combat wise, but only powerful at magic.

They have really toned down characters a ton since 3rd and 4th editions, but I still feel they bring an imbalance to the game. I think ranks and being able to attack back and steadfast huge improvements.

Crom wrote:

RiTides wrote:

Crom wrote:I mean you should have seen my 4th edition Slaan, he was basically unstoppable.

Have you seen an 8th edition slann?

(Of course you have, if you play LM, and I don't mind them being powerful- they're the oldest/strongest wizards in the game, after all. But they're still a doozy!)

4th edition slaan would kick the crap out of 8th. They used to include the saurus carrying the palanquin as part of the model/unit. It had like 6 wounds, 6 attacks, toughness 8, st 6, ws 8 int 7 but back then initiative was more of a pointless stat. Plus they knew all sorts of magic, and had regeneration and a ward save and so much more. Slaan now are super weak combat wise, but only powerful at magic.

They have really toned down characters a ton since 3rd and 4th editions, but I still feel they bring an imbalance to the game. I think ranks and being able to attack back and steadfast huge improvements.

Characters really are meant to be strong in WHFB..it is "herohammer" after all...

but imbalance? i do not think so, not in 8th...they are powerful, as befits the nature of whfb...

Otherwise, you can play wh historic battles instead of whfb....no magic, and possibly less effect from thecharacters..

freddieyu1 wrote:

Crom wrote:

RiTides wrote:

Crom wrote:I mean you should have seen my 4th edition Slaan, he was basically unstoppable.

Have you seen an 8th edition slann?

(Of course you have, if you play LM, and I don't mind them being powerful- they're the oldest/strongest wizards in the game, after all. But they're still a doozy!)

4th edition slaan would kick the crap out of 8th. They used to include the saurus carrying the palanquin as part of the model/unit. It had like 6 wounds, 6 attacks, toughness 8, st 6, ws 8 int 7 but back then initiative was more of a pointless stat. Plus they knew all sorts of magic, and had regeneration and a ward save and so much more. Slaan now are super weak combat wise, but only powerful at magic.

They have really toned down characters a ton since 3rd and 4th editions, but I still feel they bring an imbalance to the game. I think ranks and being able to attack back and steadfast huge improvements.

Characters really are meant to be strong in WHFB..it is "herohammer" after all...

but imbalance? i do not think so, not in 8th...they are powerful, as befits the nature of whfb...

Otherwise, you can play wh historic battles instead of whfb....no magic, and possibly less effect from thecharacters..

I guess I need to start cheesing out some heroes then....

I still think it is silly one guy can cause a stale mate to a 30+ model unit. I also think if you outnumber something by a certain number your hits and wounds should be easier on the dice rolls as you are rushing in, surrounding, and stabbing and cutting from every angle to a single model.

Crom, I think you and your mates should take a closer look at the 8th Ed rules. You guys were apparently doing quite a few things wrong.

I'm having tons of fun with 8th rules. They defiantly breathed life into the game. Getting nuked by the super spells can get annoying, but nothing is perfect.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:Crom, I think you and your mates should take a closer look at the 8th Ed rules. You guys were apparently doing quite a few things wrong.

I'm having tons of fun with 8th rules. They defiantly breathed life into the game. Getting nuked by the super spells can get annoying, but nothing is perfect.

To be honest I have always not been too fond of how powerful characters are in fantasy. I will admit we just got back into gaming and we do get rules wrong, but the last half dozen games we have played have been pretty on par with the rules.

Maybe the army opposing the chaos warriors lacked "hammer" units...basic infantry make good anvils due to steadfast, but you are correct in that a well tooled uber hero CAN win combats and grind them down...steadfast does not win combats..it is only useful if you lose combat, which is not something you want in every combat round.

So, the idea is to pin down powerful units with your anvils, then hit the pinned enemy with your hammers....having an army full of anvils but no hammers will end up an exercise in frustration for both sides...

so maybe a tweak in the list is in order then? If in doubt though, an additional cannon, or helblaster/organ gun will not go wrong if you are an empire or dwarf player...cannonball them dead before they reach you I say...

I had a unit of 35 Tzeentch Marauders with shields and light armour against 10 bloodletters. First round of combat I lost a good handful of marauders and caused no wounds back, had CR for banner and ranks and lost by about 2 - On Steadfast Ld8 (general was close) I still failed the check and was run down.

By the sounds of it, I should've stayed and beaten the snot out of the bloodletters because I was steadfast, but I didn't. Steadfast isn't game-breaking, it's basically just a stubborn unit, and I don't hear the Stubborn special rule getting any flak.

Soo bought and took a good look at the new O&G book, didnt see a single special character that could cause the type of carnage you were talking about...

Charging headlong into a full unit of saurus/TG with a slann in it would be suicide.

Im still fairly convinced there are only two things in that game that can take a unit 1v1 by themselves..

Arkaon the Everchosen, and a Bloodthirster

I started playing WHFB with the release of 8th edition. I've been playing 40K since 2000. As such, I have a few points:

1) For new players it's fine. GW wants you to buy Core choices, particularly lots of infantry. If you approach the game with this mindset you'll be fine.

2) I researched "viable" Armies prior to purchasing the 8th edition book. The consensus last July was that Warrior of Chaos are "top-tier." I wanted to have an even chance to win and I love Chaos (my 40K army since 3rd ed has been CSM) so I started a Tzeentch Warriors-based Army. The Army is very forgiving to new players. They remind me of Space Marines in this regard.

3) Magic is ridiculous but fun as hell. IMHO, 40K lacks this gut-wrenching, "what the hell is going happen in this phase," element.

Just some thoughts...

Yeah WoC are really strong this edition...

Best army tho, Pretty sure Skaven take that award, answer for everything.

ShivanAngel wrote:Soo bought and took a good look at the new O&G book, didnt see a single special character that could cause the type of carnage you were talking about...

Charging headlong into a full unit of saurus/TG with a slann in it would be suicide.

Im still fairly convinced there are only two things in that game that can take a unit 1v1 by themselves..

Arkaon the Everchosen, and a Bloodthirster

Not really, TG only have a 4+ save if you use Halberds, and they have initiative 2. So anything STR 6 or higher means no save. They are also very expensive, so I don't run big blocks. They basically just hide the Slaan in the unit, and are always stubborn and immune to psychology. Running a unit of 20 of them will cost you near 500 points. He also did not charge me full on, he flanked me. Always strikes first and higher initiative also means you get to reroll any misses. He tore into my unit that was already in combat with a chariot, and I destroyed all the guys but the character. Overall combat resolution wasn't that bad because it was a multiple combat. These also were not TG, they were sauruses.

Warriors of Chaos are freaking tough, best core troops in the game. I use skinks to chip their numbers down, and then hope my blocks can actually stand them. I had a frenzied block of 20 warrios versus a block of my saurus (25 count) and they wiped my lizards, and I mean slaughtered them big time.

Also the Great Unclean One, is ridiculous. He makes every model around him strike last with his cloud, his weapon does D3 wounds every wound, and he has 10 wounds himself. That thing can easily wipe units.

The reason I play whfb is because the models are cool. I just have started a Lizardmen army because I like the look of the army, not because of their abilities on the field. The question I ask myself now is: saurus or no saurus? I would like a full skink army but I think it will be weaker on the battlefield, but still I'm more inclined to take no saurus at all.

I don't here you guys about models and the look of your armies at all. I agree that playing a game is more fun if you win or if it was at least a nice battle, but what is equally important is the look of the models. And in this case the new rules regarding the winds of magic are of good use, even the bad army fielding Tehenhauin and Tetto'eko (for the non Lizardmen players: both are overpriced caster characters) can win the game.

It is difficult to take another open-minded look at whfb if you already played previous editions which you didn't liked, but it is worth trying. From my (newbie) point of view the game is pretty exciting. My army which is painted and modelled my way and designed to take on another army using my strategies is something to be proud of. Too bad that some people don't look any further than the rules and stats behind the models ^^

- Pim

Pimmilicious wrote:The reason I play whfb is because the models are cool. I just have started a Lizardmen army because I like the look of the army, not because of their abilities on the field. The question I ask myself now is: saurus or no saurus? I would like a full skink army but I think it will be weaker on the battlefield, but still I'm more inclined to take no saurus at all.

I don't here you guys about models and the look of your armies at all. I agree that playing a game is more fun if you win or if it was at least a nice battle, but what is equally important is the look of the models. And in this case the new rules regarding the winds of magic are of good use, even the bad army fielding Tehenhauin and Tetto'eko (for the non Lizardmen players: both are overpriced caster characters) can win the game.

It is difficult to take another open-minded look at whfb if you already played previous editions which you didn't liked, but it is worth trying. From my (newbie) point of view the game is pretty exciting. My army which is painted and modelled my way and designed to take on another army using my strategies is something to be proud of. Too bad that some people don't look any further than the rules and stats behind the models ^^

- Pim

Skink skirmishers! Use them, and get units of 20 and deploy them up front. They have blow pipes which do 2x shots each, skirmishers can march and shoot, and the blow pipes are quick to fire so no -1 to hit and they are poisioned weapons. Which means every 6 you roll to hit is an automatic wound. Oh, your war machine is toughness 7? Hmm, I just rolled 40 dice and got 8 6s.....so take 8 armor saves!


They dwindle down the numbers while your giant block units sit and wait to kill the remainders of them.

You can also use skrox units for ranks..but you will need a slann with the lore of life to make them really effective.....the slann should be tooled up them to be survivable (ethereal slann, magic carpet = flying slann who is hard to kill)..

Thus, flying ghost slann, skink skirmishers, skrox units, then heavy hitters like stegadons and also salamanders, and you got yourself an army..

I'm pretty sure that you can't give Slann a Magic Carpet, its the second question in the FAQ.

Also the Slann is not Ethereal, if it takes Higher State Of Consciousness, It ignores Non-Magical attacks. Which means it also ignores spells that aren't specified as Magic Missiles. Throw Unfathomable Presence on top of that and give him Shield Of The Mirrored Pool + Divine Plaque of Protection.

Down side is that you've used up 3 Disciplines so you can't take the Free Power Dice or Miscast Re-roll, unless you really want to forsake the Lore Master one.

Crom wrote:Skink skirmishers! Use them, and get units of 20 and deploy them up front. They have blow pipes which do 2x shots each, skirmishers can march and shoot, and the blow pipes are quick to fire so no -1 to hit and they are poisioned weapons. Which means every 6 you roll to hit is an automatic wound. Oh, your war machine is toughness 7? Hmm, I just rolled 40 dice and got 8 6s.....so take 8 armor saves!

Actually the pipes ain't quick to fire so if you move you must ither be in short range or not multyfire to hit on 6s.
Javelins are quick to fire however.

I really like having 1 fantasy army and 1 40k army, because I can choose two completely different settings and options; 40k allows for much more poseablilty while fantasy is much more on the overall look of a unit. Both are fun, I'll give them that, but I think of it like this( arguable, it's just my opinion)

Fantasy: Massive armies clashing in a long, long battle. Imagine a complex version of chess.

40k: Smaller forces that have much easier to learn rules, and is more of a slugfest of whoever is the shootiest better shoot the melee-men before they lose.

My $.02.

Eyclonus wrote:I'm pretty sure that you can't give Slann a Magic Carpet, its the second question in the FAQ.

Also the Slann is not Ethereal, if it takes Higher State Of Consciousness, It ignores Non-Magical attacks. Which means it also ignores spells that aren't specified as Magic Missiles. Throw Unfathomable Presence on top of that and give him Shield Of The Mirrored Pool + Divine Plaque of Protection.

Down side is that you've used up 3 Disciplines so you can't take the Free Power Dice or Miscast Re-roll, unless you really want to forsake the Lore Master one.

Ah yes forgot about the magic carpet ruling..tsk he just has to leg it then....

I think you can't give the slann the shield of the mirrored pool, as its magic armor..

I would tool the slann up with focus of mystery, focused rumination, and higher state of consciousness...give him the divine plaque of protection plus the cupped hands of the old ones, and that's it..still bloody expensive however...475 points for the frog...

The question is, in a game where said frog can nuke an opponent into submission, is he defended enough?

Are you sticking him in TG? I find they're bloody good at keeping him alive, especially if you throw Chakkax in there, he's great with his Always Strike Last power and his ability to cancel out uberpowered magic weapons.

Ah I was mentioning the above combination with regards to the previous post on a no saurus army..

I personally always take at least 16 TG to serve as the bunker for the slann. I use the above combo, but without the higher state of consciousness. Am also learning to always attempt to throw 3 dice when casting spells. I hate it when 2 1's come up and end your magic phase the moment you need it the most..

Thats what Cupped Hands are for, shifting the 1s onto some poor bugger...

Eyclonus wrote:Thats what Cupped Hands are for, shifting the 1s onto some poor bugger...

Actually 2 1's won't cause miscasts anymore, just 2 6's.

What it does is automatically end your magic phase, due to the "broken concentration" rule

freddieyu1 wrote:

Eyclonus wrote:Thats what Cupped Hands are for, shifting the 1s onto some poor bugger...

Actually 2 1's won't cause miscasts anymore, just 2 6's.

What it does is automatically end your magic phase, due to the "broken concentration" rule

I think he means if you roll snake eyes on the miscast table, which can result in instant death of your mage and all around it.

Yes..unless you roll a 1...yikes

Either way, Lizardmen are the army that has to worry about magic screw ups the least, now if a Vampire's face melted, that would bone the whole army...

Eyclonus wrote:Either way, Lizardmen are the army that has to worry about magic screw ups the least, now if a Vampire's face melted, that would bone the whole army...

Just depends on your build and cupped hands is a one use only item. You cannot reuse it over and over again. Which is why Life Magic is very popular with Lizardmen.

8th Edition is great. It does a lot of things better than 40k, while only having a few bad things.

Re: super spells and bad terrain: sometimes it boggles my mind how helpless GW wargamers can be. If you don't like the terrain rules, don't use them! If you don't like the super spells, ask your buddy to take them out of his deck!

mugginns wrote:8th Edition is great. It does a lot of things better than 40k, while only having a few bad things.

Re: super spells and bad terrain: sometimes it boggles my mind how helpless GW wargamers can be. If you don't like the terrain rules, don't use them! If you don't like the super spells, ask your buddy to take them out of his deck!

LOL You're asking GW fans to not take overpowered gamebreakers...

mugginns wrote:8th Edition is great. It does a lot of things better than 40k, while only having a few bad things.

Re: super spells and bad terrain: sometimes it boggles my mind how helpless GW wargamers can be. If you don't like the terrain rules, don't use them! If you don't like the super spells, ask your buddy to take them out of his deck!

I dunno, take the worst army books in Fantasy and compare then to the worst codices in 40K. I would say 40K does better at balance. The wood elves are highly broken and have been broken for many years. Broken in a bad way. Also, when half your army are skirmishers, it totally screws all the rank and file bonuses out of you, and when your own rank and file troops are twice as expensive points wise and half as effective as everyone else you pretty much are screwed.

Crom wrote:I would say 40K does better at balance.

Tyranids vs. Razor Vehicle spam would like a word.
Or Tyranids vs. Space Wolves (lol Jaws)
Or Tyranids vs. Dark Poisondar (lol T6 who cares?)


Basically this post is about me hating Robin Craddace...

streamdragon wrote:

Crom wrote:I would say 40K does better at balance.

Tyranids vs. Razor Vehicle spam would like a word.
Or Tyranids vs. Space Wolves (lol Jaws)
Or Tyranids vs. Dark Poisondar (lol T6 who cares?)


Basically this post is about me hating Robin Craddace...

Yeah when my skinks take out your most elite rank and file spearmen with shields, there is an issue......Not say that doesn't happen in 40K but I find balance issues bigger in WHFB. A horde block of chaos warriors with the right equipment is pretty much unstoppable, unless you manage to out shoot them before they get close. However, not every army has decent long range shooting.

I really have to wonder how bad your (or your opponent's) luck is for that to happen though. Skinks are nice, but if they're "taking out my most elite rank and file" by themselves, something is very wrong. Poison is nice, but it doesn't negate armor saves. And once you're in range for Blowguns, I should be in charge range on my turn.

And any sort of Deathstar unit can be a pain to deal with, true enough. But so is a 10 man Wolf Guard Terminator unit crashing out of a land raider with 2+/3++. That doesn't mean people haven't found ways to deal with them though. It also doesn't mean that the game isn't balanced.

This is actually my first edition paying WHFB, whereas I've been playing 40k since 2nd edition. Since 8th edition came out, I haven't played a single game of 40k, and I don't really miss it. I find WHFB to be the more balanced, more tactical, more fun game.

streamdragon wrote:I really have to wonder how bad your (or your opponent's) luck is for that to happen though. Skinks are nice, but if they're "taking out my most elite rank and file" by themselves, something is very wrong. Poison is nice, but it doesn't negate armor saves. And once you're in range for Blowguns, I should be in charge range on my turn.

And any sort of Deathstar unit can be a pain to deal with, true enough. But so is a 10 man Wolf Guard Terminator unit crashing out of a land raider with 2+/3++. That doesn't mean people haven't found ways to deal with them though. It also doesn't mean that the game isn't balanced.

This is actually my first edition paying WHFB, whereas I've been playing 40k since 2nd edition. Since 8th edition came out, I haven't played a single game of 40k, and I don't really miss it. I find WHFB to be the more balanced, more tactical, more fun game.

Been playing 40K since RT, but I skipped 3rd and 4th editions, and played WHFB since 3rd, but skipped editions 5 through 7. They have definitely improved a lot in the game, but some things are just ridiculous. I am not a fan of the terrain rules really, and skinks are freaking nasty now. March and shoot as skirmishers, 2x shots, and 20 skink units can march and unload 40 shots at other units. You are going to roll some 6s and if you roll enough you can pelt small units with enough saves they will eventually fail some saving throws.

Terminators are still 2+ 5+ invulnerable and can succumb to instant death. In 40K you get one saving throw period, where as in WHFB, you get your armor, your ward, your parry, and your regen (if they all apply) so killing characters is really tough. I will admit my dice rolls lately have been pretty hot. I have been known to roll 15+ 6s out of my 40 shots at times. 5 knights take 3 saves each, some of them are going to fail.

Oh well, now that I am back into gaming I am thinking about making up my own rule set. I think the thing that gets me the most about fantasy is combat. It is always long and drawn out, and once you get multiple combats going on at the same time it gets complicated, and with things like stead fast it can really halt a unit for the whole game in certain situations. Stubborn monsters or creatures that barely lose or win combat but are stubborn hardly ever break.

I haven't had a single game yet where my magic has been all that beneficial really either. I am holding off my opinion on 8th edition though until some more army books come out. They changed the game and need to adapt the army books to the new rule set. I find the new current magic system highly lacking, but I have to assume that when more army books come out it will expand upon the magic system.

Crom wrote:In 40K you get one saving throw period, where as in WHFB, you get your armor, your ward, your parry, and your regen (if they all apply) so killing characters is really tough.

Yea well... Wait what!?
Noone gets more than 2 saves ever, you get your armor (this ccould be re-rolled), and then you get a choice between using a regen or a ward (parry is a ward too) but not both.

Hehe, your subject made it sound like you were asking if Fantasy players are gay rofl. Wow am I helpful...

streamdragon wrote:

Crom wrote:I would say 40K does better at balance.

Tyranids vs. Razor Vehicle spam would like a word.
Or Tyranids vs. Space Wolves (lol Jaws)
Or Tyranids vs. Dark Poisondar (lol T6 who cares?)


Basically this post is about me hating Robin Craddace...

BTW, A nids army was 1 of the top 4 armies at the recently concluded adepticon 40k championships....

In the top 4, you had 1 SW, 1 hybrid IG, 1 ork, and 1 nid army...

Very nice spread.....

And if you look at the overall spread of all armies, 75% of it was in three armies, two of them power armored, I believe. That is definitely one thing Warhammer has for it: no space marines.

mugginns wrote:And if you look at the overall spread of all armies, 75% of it was in three armies, two of them power armored, I believe. That is definitely one thing Warhammer has for it: no space marines.

I think your % are off, definitely not 75%...

freddieyu1 wrote:

mugginns wrote:And if you look at the overall spread of all armies, 75% of it was in three armies, two of them power armored, I believe. That is definitely one thing Warhammer has for it: no space marines.

I think your % are off, definitely not 75%...

I exaggerated a little

50% of the people played IG or BA or SW. 70% played something power armored or IG.

mugginns wrote:

freddieyu1 wrote:

mugginns wrote:And if you look at the overall spread of all armies, 75% of it was in three armies, two of them power armored, I believe. That is definitely one thing Warhammer has for it: no space marines.

I think your % are off, definitely not 75%...

I exaggerated a little

50% of the people played IG or BA or SW. 70% played something power armored or IG.

That is 120% total....?

Crom wrote:

mugginns wrote:

freddieyu1 wrote:

mugginns wrote:And if you look at the overall spread of all armies, 75% of it was in three armies, two of them power armored, I believe. That is definitely one thing Warhammer has for it: no space marines.

I think your % are off, definitely not 75%...

I exaggerated a little

50% of the people played IG or BA or SW. 70% played something power armored or IG.

That is 120% total....?

Nope, they're overlapping. Read it again.