Here is a question that has bothered me for some time.

If you were a modern day soldier facing a SM in terminator armor, which of our modern weapons would be able to pierce the ceramite plating of your opponent where it is the thickest (like the chest plate)? In other words, how much can a terminator armor take?

Please forget about the training and mental conditions of SM and modern day soldiers, this is not the point of this poll.

I know that the list I gave above is not perfect, but I tried to give a concise, yet as complete as possible list of all our different types of weapons in the 21st century.

I chose not to include missiles and the like because:

a) I don't know much about them, I would not have been able to list different types of missiles used by our modern day armies;

b) the list would have become far too complicated.

So what do you guys think? Which of our modern toys would bring a terminator to its knees?

If they don't wear a helm then David with his sling and a pebble from a stream ought do the job.

Well its rare you'll ever see a SM terminator with a big gaping hole in his chest, so I'd say any regular infantry weapon wouldn't do it. Even explosive rounds such as those in a grenade launcher.

They'd probably be effective hitting in a joint where the force could work against opposing plates, but the chest?

30mm would probably be the lowest end calibre to "effectively" drop a termie, as in, before it drops you. I have the impression ceramite is more solid than giving, so multiple rapid hits to chip away it would probably be better than a big "crack and pause" such as what some modern artillery could offer with a slower rate of fire.

So a bushmaster M242 would probably do it, or a GAU8 haha.

Where is the option for "None Of The Above"

I don't believe any heavy artillery we poses currently is more powerful than an Earthshaker Battle Cannon and Termi's get their full save against it.

Futuristic armor composed of materials that are harder than anything we currently can create need futuristic weapons to penetrate them.

I belive it would take a direct hit from a 105mm cannon or above to do anything.


small arms fire does have a small chance because he could get hit in the eye lense, but that is pretty low chance and even smaller chance that it will kill the terminator.


any kind of fragmentation would be useless against the TDA so indirect hits from ordinance would do anything.



a shaped charge would probably stand a good chance of penetrating.

Savo rounds too.

Penetrating Tank round would approximately do something

someone have said before that space marine power armor is essentially wearing a TANK

Retrias wrote:Penetrating Tank round would approximately do something

someone have said before that space marine power armor is essentially wearing a TANK

I voted 105mm (a few of them), i reckon that is the only thing capable of stopping a TDA. But it would have to impact directly on the armor and not beside the termy.
Yea wearing a tank, with all its guns included, ON the arm. (shows how much I know about tanks)

Anti-tank and anti-aircraft guns effectiveness depends on the ammo used. So 20-30mm with a high rate of fire may do. MBT main guns would
penetrate for sure. Artillery in a direct Hit to the front plate again depends on ammo used.

If the ammo was meant to directly damage vehicles, it would most likely hurt termies.

Enough dudes with steel bayonets ought to do the trick

I don't think any of the rounds would do much to the suit. But then, you're being a bit vague as to the types of rounds in those calibers.

A 120mm depleted uranium tungsten dart moving at 1750 meters per second would do something I'm sure. That much mass moving at that speed will make its point (sorry) felt.

It's hard to say whether it would penetrate a suit of armor as celebrated in the fiction as a termie suit considering what it was designed for in the first place. I am fairly confident that a round of 120 DU APFSDS if it hit at the right angle would rip off an appendage. Some rounds of sufficient caliber moving at extreme velocity might impact and overcome the suits leg or arm motive units. Perhaps cause the legs to buckle at the impact.

Any HE rounds would do relatively nothing to the suit at the calibers you mention other than build a nice trench for the termie to fall into.

Solid shot rounds would be the way to go. You would try and fracture the suit or turn the occupant to jelly by pummelling it over a period of time with a barrage of rounds. Remembering the rules of physics, you could knock the termie suit around the battlefield like a toy with the mass of some rounds, but never crack it open.

Considering the nature of the weapons required to fire the rounds you'd mention I'd doubt you'd be able to keep a termie suit on target long enough even though they are relatively slow moving.

If a mass of solid rounds turning a termie into jelly is a way to take a TDA down, the amounts of rounds would probably be enough to destroy an army, assuming you mean small caliber rounds. Not to mention the occupant having undergone genetic engineering and has a solid piece of bone for a ribcage, which is not really a ribcage. It would take way too much time and people to take one down. Its worse when Termies come in squads and have more shooty weapons than you do.

Dicelowly wrote:Well its rare you'll ever see a SM terminator with a big gaping hole in his chest, so I'd say any regular infantry weapon wouldn't do it. Even explosive rounds such as those in a grenade launcher.

They'd probably be effective hitting in a joint where the force could work against opposing plates, but the chest?

30mm would probably be the lowest end calibre to "effectively" drop a termie, as in, before it drops you. I have the impression ceramite is more solid than giving, so multiple rapid hits to chip away it would probably be better than a big "crack and pause" such as what some modern artillery could offer with a slower rate of fire.

So a bushmaster M242 would probably do it, or a GAU8 haha.

A direct hit from an artillery shell would do the trick. Concussive wave would kill, more like obliterate, the operator inside, even with the armor. Plus, the mass of the suit cannot possibly weigh more then 1200 kilos. A tank shell or Gau-8 would give more then enough force to penetrate.

It's a suit of armor designed to operate inside of a FUNCTIONING NUCLEAR REACTOR! I don't think anything we have now could go through it, and even if you hit it with a sabot round, there's still that 5+ from whatever force field protects it.

As a culture that doesn't even posses las-locks, we're still more primitive than most societies within the fluff.

An0maly1 wrote:

Dicelowly wrote:Well its rare you'll ever see a SM terminator with a big gaping hole in his chest, so I'd say any regular infantry weapon wouldn't do it. Even explosive rounds such as those in a grenade launcher.

They'd probably be effective hitting in a joint where the force could work against opposing plates, but the chest?

30mm would probably be the lowest end calibre to "effectively" drop a termie, as in, before it drops you. I have the impression ceramite is more solid than giving, so multiple rapid hits to chip away it would probably be better than a big "crack and pause" such as what some modern artillery could offer with a slower rate of fire.

So a bushmaster M242 would probably do it, or a GAU8 haha.

A direct hit from an artillery shell would do the trick. Concussive wave would kill, more like obliterate, the operator inside, even with the armor. Plus, the mass of the suit cannot possibly weigh more then 1200 kilos. A tank shell or Gau-8 would give more then enough force to penetrate.

If this were true than Termi's would get instakilled with no save by the IG all day long. But they don't.

Arguing our current tech level VS science fiction armor created 20,000 years from now is moot. I do not believe anything we have currently can come close to hurting a Terminator... at least any more so than any gun has a chance of getting a lucky shot in.

But consider that a Las gun shot, a round from a Hydra Platform, an Earth Shaker round, and a Lemun Russ Cattle Cannon all have the same chance of armor penetration. I do not believe that there currently exists a weapon that would be considered AP 2 in the year 40,000 and especially not AP1.

Well, if we just think of physics any round of sufficient density moving at sufficient speed fired at the suit in an atmosphere with sufficient gravity will overcome the armor of a sufficiently limited density, but that wasn't the question and we aren't dealing with infinitely scalable variables.

Hell, why not fire a 120mm caliber neutron star round at 99% the speed of light at the suit?

I definitely think that an anti tank shell from a modern tank should at least wound the Terminator, take out some of its systems, etc.,

Now thats not to say that any one tank is going to be able to one shot a terminator but given enough shots I'm sure it would take out a termie

I do remember that there is a round that US. military tanks use called the Sabbot round and I'm sure it would be efficient.

Terminators armor, and the marine inside, is designed to withstand concussive forces.


the reason a Battle cannon doesn't penetrate TDA is because it is a fragmentation round.

against vehicle, it takes a direct hit to get the Str8 hit.

the fragmentation is Str8 to infantry(TDA), but the shell will 99% of the time never get a direct hit.

that represents the chance that a terminator would actually die to a Battlecannon.



i belive that only artillery and tank shells could penetrate TDA, and then only with a direct hit.




Now, multiple rounds hitting indirectly might eventually crack through the TDA through the sheer concussive force, but that would take a while and by then the terminator has killed your tank.

Read in Horus Rising when they talk about the first time the terminators are used to take the mountain fortress.

Son 0f Dorn wrote:Read in Horus Rising when they talk about the first time the terminators are used to take the mountain fortress.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that... lol.

Wait a minute

S1, armed with a pocket knife can kill a Terminator (at worst) 1 out of 111 times.

So a simple .22 round can kill a termie.

not often.. but it'll do the trick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
this is with the understanding that a real life human punches at str 3, and a .22 calibre rifle hits much, much harder than that.

Ragnar4 wrote:Wait a minute

S1, armed with a pocket knife can kill a Terminator (at worst) 1 out of 111 times.

So a simple .22 round can kill a termie.

not often.. but it'll do the trick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
this is with the understanding that a real life human punches at str 3, and a .22 calibre rifle hits much, much harder than that.

I was thinking of asking for 'maglite' to be added as an option as my guards massed lasguns can sure put the crimp on a unit of termies.

Uhlan wrote:

Son 0f Dorn wrote:Read in Horus Rising when they talk about the first time the terminators are used to take the mountain fortress.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that... lol.

Yeah. We can debate it all day, but we're comparing 3 different standards associated with something that doesn't exist in the first place. So to be able to know if a bullet could possibly get through hyper mega armor is on par with speculating how much food a unicorn eats.

Psst, umm, how much does a unicorn eat anyway?

You'd have to ask Voldemort. I hear he's got some experience.

Son 0f Dorn wrote:

Uhlan wrote:

Son 0f Dorn wrote:Read in Horus Rising when they talk about the first time the terminators are used to take the mountain fortress.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that... lol.

Yeah. We can debate it all day, but we're comparing 3 different standards associated with something that doesn't exist in the first place. So to be able to know if a bullet could possibly get through hyper mega armor is on par with speculating how much food a unicorn eats.

Asking how much a Unicorn eats is a valid question in the Warhammer Fantasy Forums. It would probably get the same amount of debate as well.

"We're past the year 2000! Where are all the flying cars and sky cities?"
The generation tasked with designing them is bickering about nonsense on the interweb.

high-penetration multi-sage 105mm warhead like the RPG-29 could do it imo.

In fluff such as the siege of Vraks Terminators were vulnerable to enough small arms fire from Cultist stubbers anyway.

The question wasn't whether or not a lucky shot or shots from small arms fire can down a Terminator... it was what could puncture a Teminator's armor where it was thickest?

The question in fact is how tough the Terminator armor is.
And we already know that standard marine armor can withstand tank shell.
I think you forgot to put "tactical nuke" in the list

Ragnar4 wrote:Wait a minute

S1, armed with a pocket knife can kill a Terminator (at worst) 1 out of 111 times.

So a simple .22 round can kill a termie.

not often.. but it'll do the trick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
this is with the understanding that a real life human punches at str 3, and a .22 calibre rifle hits much, much harder than that.

I think you would break your fist on the armor... Just saying. The rules dont need to have Space Marines with a new special rule: "And they shall only have broken fists"

Fluff termi or tabletop termi?

Fluff termie.

the table top woefully under powers MEQs.

A customized AP .50 with a delayed explosive charge in it should get the job done if you also extend the shell length to accommodate an even larger gunpowder charge, but it may take a few shots. Any 'small arms' (assault rifles, pistols, shotguns) would be hilariously ineffective against a suit of terminator armor. A penetrating anti-tank round (not a get-in-the-engine-housing-and-blow-up round) could probably get the job done, or a modified autocannon round (designed to penetrate) could also do it.

Anti-tank shaped charge 'ought to put a nice hole in there. Maybe 105-120mm. To kill the marine might take another hit. Or ten.

Here's how you beat Termies. Live in a swamp.

Why is that?

Strength is meaningless without friction to grip... let em sink in the mud, wallow for a few weeks as they run out of air, and live to win. The downside - you have to live in a swamp.

I guess Imperial tacticians would not even send termies into the swamp. If they wanted to destroy you and risk losing a couple of veterans, i am sure they would bombard your home from orbit. Unless they are space wolves.

A Barret .50 cal would probably do the trick. It was designed for the sole purpose of hitting people through armored vehicles.

I think a fifty cal, or a Russian 14.5mm would have a chance. Then again it could zing right off too. I think anti tank-guns will start to blow parts off of them pretty quickly, maybe not a one shot the first time but cumulative effects would batter them apart. That's light anti-tank weaponry (75mm recoiless guns, bazookas etc) Move up to 120mm sabot or GAU-8 and I think termies would die quickly, as you're talking about the equivalents of a Vanquisher battle cannon and not fragmentation or high explosive rounds

Remember TDA was designed to function inside plasma reactors, that's heat resistance - not resistance to kinetic energy

If I remember correctly there is a story in the Heresy series about a Termie being hit by a Krak Missile and surviving, so "none of the above".

I think that, if at close range, you could get the full concussive force of an 8 gauge shotgun onto the TDA helmet, than, maybe than, but even so, it would be asking alot. Anywho I hear the US Navy has working Railguns, just use that.

The poll is about the chest armour, which is the thickest.

An RPG-29 can penetrate the front armour plate of a Challenger 2 tank, so it will certainly do the job on a Terminator suit.

Older generation recoilless rockets like the Armbrust or early RPG7 can only penetrate about 12 inches of steel armour, so may not be effective against a Terminator suit chest.

Well I don't have a physics degree from armchair university like so many people in these types of threads but I just can't see a marine in termi armour being killed by concussive force. It just seems like one of those things that astartes physiology would prevent, in regular old power armour they regularly get loaded into drop pods and shot at a planet from orbit and impact with enough force to turn a human into jelly.

Many things in 40K simply couldn't work as described, because physical law isn't suspended by high technology.

Like lots of 40K, Space Marines work by handwavium. That is why 40K is space fantasy, not science fiction.

Once on the gw website it said the could survive almost anything except a direct hit from a lascannon. Wether this is true or not I do not know?

Just think i should mention that if you corner some termies and kill half of them, and they fail the morale test, they kill themselves. The armour doesn't help much when you've got your own bolt pistol under your chin

This is fluffwise, and termies do not commit suicide. If they are cornered by Tau, they fight till the end, if Orks corner them, they fight till the end, when Eldar corner them, they fight till the end, if the Nids or Necrons corner them, they get butchered. If the Guard corners them, something is wrong. If Chaos corners them, they either convert or die. That is a 1st company veteran.

The only thing that would have a chance would be a direct hit from a modern 120mm sabot round. The 155mm artillry might do it on a direct hit.

Look at most of the "conventional" style weapons in 40k. Missile launcher= AP3, Leman Russ battlecannon= AP3, Autocannon= AP4, none of it able to pierce terminator armor, so I doubt anything in this thread could pierce it, short of a massive explosion (akin to Demolisher Cannon).


And people mentioning 50. BMG would penetrate Terminator armor? Are you being serious?

The last one. At least in modern terms, I think. The ordinance they have in 40k is much more potent and devastating than what we have, not to mention terminator armour is crafted of literally the strongest minerals in the galaxy.


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Conservationist wrote:This is fluffwise, and termies do not commit suicide. If they are cornered by Tau, they fight till the end, if Orks corner them, they fight till the end, when Eldar corner them, they fight till the end, if the Nids or Necrons corner them, they get butchered. If the Guard corners them, something is wrong. If Chaos corners them, they either convert or die. That is a 1st company veteran.

QFT. Just because they fail morale doesn't mean they commit suicide. It probably represents the idea that they know when they're beat, and they escape to prevent further damage. Also, it's been mentioned numerous times that just because a model takes a wound and is 'removed', doesn't mean he dies. Any number of things could happen.

scubasteve04 wrote:And people mentioning 50. BMG would penetrate Terminator armor? Are you being serious?

Are you being serious questioning it? TDA is considered to be the equivalent of wearing a tank. A .50 BMG AP round is designed to F$#& UP TANKS, and the people inside them. It would probably have to be extensively modified (like I said in my post) but it's plausible. Do you have anything other than 'Bwuuhhhh?' to say about it?

EDIT: The new Exitus Rifle rules tell it all to me. AP1. Given the size of the gun itself it can't be much larger than a .50 cal. It could be .75/.60, but I wouldn't think of it as likely.

a .50 BMG round is designed to feth up 21st century tanks. not 4100th century tanks.


a weapon could be Ap1 all day long, if its Str is too low it can't hurt tanks at all.


Ceramite is at least 4-5 inches thick on TDA and ceramite has the hardness of diamond and the tensile strength of Granite.

IMO fluffwise I think the Exitus rifle could kill a termie, but penetrating its chest plate (which is the point of this thread) wouldnt be able to kill it. A headshot is probably needed. Anyways, the weapons in the futre(40k) and now would be very different, both is terms of material that solid rounds are made of and the armor that the fighting forces wear. We are talking about ceramite here, so while a 0.50 cal could penetrate termie armour in the future, right now it wouldnt be that feasible. Its about the weapons we have now that can bring one armoured in TDA to their knees.

Also most 40k snipers don't use solid shots. They use a high intensity lazer to carry a envenomed shard into the enemy.
But no I do not think that any modern weapon could pentrate TDA in the chest plate.

crazypsyko666 wrote:

scubasteve04 wrote:And people mentioning 50. BMG would penetrate Terminator armor? Are you being serious?

Are you being serious questioning it? TDA is considered to be the equivalent of wearing a tank. A .50 BMG AP round is designed to F$#& UP TANKS, and the people inside them. It would probably have to be extensively modified (like I said in my post) but it's plausible. Do you have anything other than 'Bwuuhhhh?' to say about it?

EDIT: The new Exitus Rifle rules tell it all to me. AP1. Given the size of the gun itself it can't be much larger than a .50 cal. It could be .75/.60, but I wouldn't think of it as likely.

A .50 BMG is for vehicles/ light armor. I'm no expert, but I am pretty sure shooting a .50 BMG at an M1 Abrahms or a Leapord is going to do do nothing except scratch a lot of paint.

The heavy stubber is pretty much an exact replica of the M2 Browning .50 cal, and its str 4 AP 5 (hint, not AP 2).

The only thing outside of an artillery blast in 40k that can pierce 2+ armor is advanced weapons like Lascannons, Plasmaguns, Meltaguns, ect. All non-existent weapons in the 21st century.

scubasteve04 wrote:
The only thing outside of an artillery blast in 40k that can pierce 2+ armor is advanced weapons like Lascannons, Plasmaguns, Meltaguns, ect. All non-existent weapons in the 21st century.

Railguns. That said, I still don't think they'd be able to do it.

Addicted to Bleach wrote:Also most 40k snipers don't use solid shots. They use a high intensity lazer to carry a envenomed shard into the enemy.
But no I do not think that any modern weapon could pentrate TDA in the chest plate.

Not even a Maverick missile?

Are we taking the energy field form the Crux into account?

Addicted to Bleach wrote:But no I do not think that any modern weapon could pentrate TDA in the chest plate.

Tzar Bomba disagrees with this statement.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Addicted to Bleach wrote:But no I do not think that any modern weapon could pentrate TDA in the chest plate.

Tzar Bomba disagrees with this statement.

Or the MOAB in that matter...

To penetrate the chest plate? Tactical nuke. But I think any sort of anti-tank gun being aimed at the more vunerable parts would have a good chance.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

scubasteve04 wrote:
The only thing outside of an artillery blast in 40k that can pierce 2+ armor is advanced weapons like Lascannons, Plasmaguns, Meltaguns, ect. All non-existent weapons in the 21st century.

Railguns. That said, I still don't think they'd be able to do it.

We've got those now.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1q_rRicAwI[youtube]

LOOK AT THAT PAPER TARGET CRUMPLE THE TERMIES ARE F*CKED

A pure Terminator army wouldn't stand a chance against American military.

Sniper teams with .50 Calibers shooting them in the eyes.

That aside you'd need a Railgun or at least an APDFS (is that right?) Anti-Tank round from a tank to take one out.

i know our snipers are good, but i doubt that can consistantly hit something thats less then a couple of square inches in area. especially if moving around.

we have trouble zeroing in on a terrorist standing in the middle of a crowd. don't say you can hit a guy in the eye from far enough away where his hand held RPG launcher can't hurt you back.

Those railguns the navy are developing look like they might be able to do the trick. Outside of that and the Barrett to the head I'd go with Fuel Air Bombs, GAU-8, tactical nukes.

grayspark wrote:A pure Terminator army wouldn't stand a chance against American military.

Sniper teams with .50 Calibers shooting them in the eyes.

That aside you'd need a Railgun or at least an APDFS (is that right?) Anti-Tank round from a tank to take one out.

Yea APDFS is right (armor piercing discarding fin sabot), and it would probably penetrate terminator armor.

But an army of american snipers with .50 BMG sniper rifles? Seriously? The Terminators would be teleporting right on top of the snipers and it would be a bloody mess. No chance really for a sniper to set a shot to penetrate the Terminators eye holes. Maybe in hollywood, but not IRL.

People need to stop saying .50 cal snipers. They are not even close to the 40k equivilent of AP 2. They are probably AP 4 at best.

remeber this is technology created at the least 28,000 years from(assuming it was created around the year 30,00) now essentially longer then current recorded history even goes back. I think that the technology would be too advanced to even think about getting hurt by modern weapons. Even the eye slits are like made of material stronger then a 50 cal sniper round. The understanding of the tech cant be comprehended. I mean serioussly bolters are small rockets around the size of a fist that explode after penetrating. Kinda sounds like those anti tank rounds. I dont believe anything we currently have can even chip a terminators armour. hit him with tank rounds and he will probly start laughing cuz it tickled

dmthomas7 wrote:remeber this is technology created at the least 28,000 years from(assuming it was created around the year 30,00) now essentially longer then current recorded history even goes back. I think that the technology would be too advanced to even think about getting hurt by modern weapons.

I guess it depends how you view 40K tech. From what I got from all theGW and publications I read over the years, Imperial tech is not necessarily that advanced. it os true that they use super-thick materials with amazing pieces of technology, but there must be a limit to the resistance of ceramite.

AFAIK, most weapons in the 41st millenium use energetic bolts or shockwaves (like laser or plasma weapons) or destroy their target by literally burning it or melting it down (flamers, meltas...). It seems that advanced projectile weapons are relatively rare in the 41st millenium. So, it would be fair to assume that ceramite (and termy suits) are designed to resist extreme amounts of heat caused by any energetic weapon.
On the other hand, their resistance to kinetic weapons must be lower.

Which means that our most destructive heavy weapons would probably crack the termy suit open after a few hits.

Well, bolters/boltguns are somewhere around .75 Caliber... Unsure of Heavy Bolters though. I'd figure you would need something a lot heavier than that to penetrate a Terminator's armor... Though this should've been obvious.

Heavy bolter shells are about the size of a fist. marine fist!

None of the above.

None of those weapons would be anywhere near the equivalent of a 40k weapon that has AP2.

Also, there are no "eye holes" in power or terminator armor. Those things have auto-senses. Contrary to popular belief, auto-sense aren't binoculars. They're an integrated sensor system that projects the field of vision onto the inside of a marine's helmet. Those "eye holes" are just decoration, and no less armored than anywhere else on the helmet.

DarknessEternal wrote:
Also, there are no "eye holes" in power or terminator armor. Those things have auto-senses. Contrary to popular belief, auto-sense aren't binoculars. They're an integrated sensor system that projects the field of vision onto the inside of a marine's helmet. Those "eye holes" are just decoration, and no less armored than anywhere else on the helmet.

You can see even in "Ultramarines" that their eye holes have sensors that send data back to them. If ordinary marines have this than Termonators must have some advanced version.
And beside, you really think that they would make one of the toughest armor in the galaxy and leave the eye sections venerable?

But I think that Abrams 125mm can hurt them a little.

Brother Coa wrote:
But I think that Abrams 125mm can hurt them a little.

Why? It's certainly a analogue to a battle cannon, but much more primitive. Since a battle cannon doesn't hurt Terminators, why would that?

I dont't understand how 75mm has so many votes...

The Terminator could possibly laugh himself to death

@Darknesseternal Well, it can certainly hurt them, but generally not kill or penetrate the armor, as a Battle Cannon packs twice the punch a Terminator can handle, however, the armor saves him much more often than not.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
But I think that Abrams 125mm can hurt them a little.

Why? It's certainly a analogue to a battle cannon, but much more primitive. Since a battle cannon doesn't hurt Terminators, why would that?

I would call the battle cannon more primitive by the looks of it. Although being probably around 150mm+, it still only seems to fire a standard HE round given its large blast radius.

The abrams would be using APDFS, which bascially shoots a depleted uranium arrow with massive amounts of force to penetrate any armor it hits. Its more akin to a Vanquisher (AP2) imo.

dmthomas7 wrote:remeber this is technology created at the least 28,000 years from(assuming it was created around the year 30,00) now essentially longer then current recorded history even goes back. I think that the technology would be too advanced to even think about getting hurt by modern weapons. Even the eye slits are like made of material stronger then a 50 cal sniper round. The understanding of the tech cant be comprehended. I mean serioussly bolters are small rockets around the size of a fist that explode after penetrating. Kinda sounds like those anti tank rounds. I dont believe anything we currently have can even chip a terminators armour. hit him with tank rounds and he will probly start laughing cuz it tickled

That is one view. Another view is that without force fields and exotic matter, there isn't a big amount of difference between Terminator armour and modern day Chobham armour.

The reason being that we are already approaching the point where we need force fields and stuff to make our materials any better. We've pretty much run out of tricks with alloys and composites.

Things do reach a peak and further development with the same technology doesn't help. Cray reached that point at least a decade ago. Moore's Law is breaking down at the moment.

Etc.

So people think these suits can withstand anything up to a mini nuke, but a spindly limbed four armed alien with bone-esque claws can consistently tear terminator suits apart like a tin opener? That seems very wrong to me.

People don't seem to realize just how powerful modern weapons are.

I think the kind of power modern heavy weapons have would be more than enough to deal with terminator armour. If you shoot a terminator suit with a tank round I would put bets on it going right through.

A modern 30mm armour piercing discarded sabot round with a 15mm penetrator sabot core (30mm HV-APDSDU) can chew through 280 - 290mm of hardened armour per round!
These things are scary, at 1000m range they deliver 136,700fpe+ (foot lb) of terminal energy and will hit at over 3,600fps. Even assuming no penetration of the armour, and no internal 'spalling', that kind of kinetic energy alone will create shockwaves that will mush pretty much anything organic in contact with it. Think wearing a metal helmet and getting a space marine to hit it with a sledgehammer.

If the weapon being used has a high rate of fire ( up to 70 rounds per second for some 30mm cannons!) and these rounds were somehow unable to penetrate the armour, and instead are stopped by it (i.e. totally transferring their kinetic energy to it) then that kind of combined force is going to be like crashing a train into the front of the suit and it's going to be blasted a helluva long way from where it was originally standing. (Incidentally the A-10 'Warthog' that utilizes a gatling-type 30mm cannon for destroying armour doesn't use discarding sabot ammo as the chance of the used sabots being eaten by the engines is considered too high, nom nom!)

Scale this effect up as weapon calibre increases, for instance a generic 120mm discarding sabot round (DM53) is throwing some 8kg+ at 4900fps+ at huge ranges. That's a BIG hit, easily enough to flip a terminator suit weighing 1-2 tons (guestimate!) and send it literally flying.

Terminator suits do exactly what they are intended to do: Tear stuff up while making the wearer practically immune to all small arms fire. They aren't designed for prolonged open combat. Personally I think terminator suits would probably be flagged as targets for infantry portable missiles, but that's another discussion!

Luckily all of this is pure conjecture and doesn't matter, what's really important is rolling below that damn armour save!

Agreed, with the above person.



30mm off of a A10 ground support aircraft. Would turn terminators into Swiss cheese.

Ok, two things:

1) Weapons in 40k that can parallel modern munitions today (auto cannon, heavy stubber, battle cannon, Missile Launcher) do little in game to penetrate Terminator armor (only ap 3-5), and

2) Marines are substantially weaker on the tabeltop then they are in the fluff.

Short from a 125mm APDFS (akin to a vanquisher shot), you need total overkill naval style weapons to deal with a Terminator (Demolisher, Bastion breacher shells, ect)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That above round is basically a heavy bolter round. I am sure the Terminators are terrified

xlightscreen wrote:
30mm off of a A10 ground support aircraft. Would turn terminators into Swiss cheese.

And it is common knowledge that every round that is less than standard tank munition (125mm-155mm) is somply bouncing of Terminator armor. So A-10 would fire 500 raound in second on Terminator and 500 rounds will be ricocheted all around him. Only weapons that penetrate this armor are power and force weapons, and some REALLY heavy rounds ( Like Autocannon rounds or MBT rounds).

scubasteve04 wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
But I think that Abrams 125mm can hurt them a little.

Why? It's certainly a analogue to a battle cannon, but much more primitive. Since a battle cannon doesn't hurt Terminators, why would that?

I would call the battle cannon more primitive by the looks of it. Although being probably around 150mm+, it still only seems to fire a standard HE round given its large blast radius.

The abrams would be using APDFS, which bascially shoots a depleted uranium arrow with massive amounts of force to penetrate any armor it hits. Its more akin to a Vanquisher (AP2) imo.

Hahah, no. No existing conventional weaponry compares to the advanced technology of 40k. The round you describe would be more like a S6 AP4 hit.

Honestly, 40k's tech level is very low for its supposed time period. If you want an example of what real ubertech weaponry looks like, read the Lensman novels. They begin with neutronium axes, powered armor, and inertial dampeners. They end with the Galactic Patrol smashing an enemy planet between two other inertially-cancelled planets like a nutcracker, and then using an entire planet's worth of degenerate matter to wipe out a star.

Alternatively, there's Core Command, where the members of the titular Core Command are issued pocket-pistol sized sidearms that fire compressed singularities and can accurately destroy small spacecraft in orbit from the surface of the planet, or "Stutter Rifles" that fire graviton bursts that tear a target apart at the atomic level.

Kinda makes a glorified gyrojet gun look small-time.

of course those Sci-fi realms have less basis in actual technology.

they decide they want an effect and then make up some tekkie mumbo jumbo that allows them to do that.

40k takes existing and hypothetical scientific theories ans bases their tech around that.


as a result, 40k has more realistic/feasable technology then other sci-fi worlds. lets face it, as of now a Gravitron gun just sounds cool, but has no basis in fact(gravity is the weakest of the atomic forces)

Who voted for 5.56 rounds?

Grey Templar wrote:of course those Sci-fi realms have less basis in actual technology.

they decide they want an effect and then make up some tekkie mumbo jumbo that allows them to do that.

40k takes existing and hypothetical scientific theories ans bases their tech around that.

as a result, 40k has more realistic/feasable technology then other sci-fi worlds. lets face it, as of now a Gravitron gun just sounds cool, but has no basis in fact(gravity is the weakest of the atomic forces)

I'm amused that you're taking the setting where faster than light travel technology literally relies on travelling through Hell and claiming it has more realistic technology than anything.

Let's face it. 40k does not operate on the laws of physics. It operates on one law only, and that is the Law of Awesome. That's why the soldiers of 40k use chainsaw swords to fight demon spider-mecha powered by the souls of the damned. That's also why nothing in modern human technology can penetrate Space Marine armor. It bounces off of the Awesome Field that surrounds all Space Marines and protects them from dying to any weapon that is not sufficiently Awesome.

Except the A-10's GAU-8 cannon. That gun has barely enough Dakka to qualify as Awesome by 40k standards, but only if it's wielded by an Ork.

Having shot weapons up to 7.62x54r (.30cal, standard machine gun round for most Soviet era weapons and the Mosin Nagant) is why i chose the 12.7mm (.50cal). From a fluff standpoint Termie suits shrug off everything thrown at them and still march on but in the game rules Termies are hard to kill but not invincible. Shoot enough Heavy Stubber, Autoguns (modern assault rifle equivilent)at them and they start failing those Armor saves..... That example leads me to believe that men with M2 .50cal MGs, 12.7 Dskh Soviet machine guns, .50cal Barrets could and would eventually drop a termie. Might take a few hundred/thousand rounds but it would happen, and by that time his squadmates would have pulped you.

themocaw wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:of course those Sci-fi realms have less basis in actual technology.

they decide they want an effect and then make up some tekkie mumbo jumbo that allows them to do that.

40k takes existing and hypothetical scientific theories ans bases their tech around that.

as a result, 40k has more realistic/feasable technology then other sci-fi worlds. lets face it, as of now a Gravitron gun just sounds cool, but has no basis in fact(gravity is the weakest of the atomic forces)

I'm amused that you're taking the setting where faster than light travel technology literally relies on travelling through Hell and claiming it has more realistic technology than anything.

Let's face it. 40k does not operate on the laws of physics. It operates on one law only, and that is the Law of Awesome. That's why the soldiers of 40k use chainsaw swords to fight demon spider-mecha powered by the souls of the damned. That's also why nothing in modern human technology can penetrate Space Marine armor. It bounces off of the Awesome Field that surrounds all Space Marines and protects them from dying to any weapon that is not sufficiently Awesome.

Except the A-10's GAU-8 cannon. That gun has barely enough Dakka to qualify as Awesome by 40k standards, but only if it's wielded by an Ork.

40k has "MORE", as in quantitative numbers, realistic Technology then other Sci-fi.


Railguns are real,

Bolters use actual real world technology,

Plasma weapons use the Magnetic Tunnel theory of plasma containment,

Space Ship weapons are mostly railguns of one type or another,

Exterminatus is a combination of Biological and conventional weaponry(unlike other planet killing weapons that cause planets to blast into each other by manipulating gravity which is currently scientifically impossable)

40k Skimmers use Magnetic plates to skim the planets magnetic field(and often have additional thrusters to gain orbit of a planet)

Nah. Those rounds won't penetrate, therefore will be useless. An old sherman with a standard 75mm gun cannot penetrate a Tiger I front armor, even at point blank range. The answer was not keep shooting the front armor until something happens (it wont), but to outflank and hit the side/rear armor.

No 21st century infantry portable weapons will EVER penetrate Terminator armor. You also have to factor in that he won't be standing still either. They have force fields and Teleportation for christ sakes.

scubasteve04 wrote:Nah. Those rounds won't penetrate, therefore will be useless. An old sherman with a standard 75mm gun cannot penetrate a Tiger I front armor, even at point blank range. The answer was not keep shooting the front armor until something happens (it wont), but to outflank and hit the side/rear armor.

No 21st century infantry portable weapons will EVER penetrate Terminator armor. You also have to factor in that he won't be standing still either. They have force fields and Teleportation for christ sakes.

Using the Sherman/Tiger analogy...Shermans could defeat Tigers by shooting them in the sides or rear....Termie suits have joints, vents, tubes, seals...they have weaknesses. 12.7mm AP rounds can blow big holes in modern armored vehicles........(Comparing BDRM and BTR-60s to Terminator armor is thin, i know but not outside the realm of believability)

However unlikely for AP 12.7 rounds to defeat Terminator armor may sound from a fluff standpoint....in the game Termies are killed by Heavy stubbers. Unless we agree that the Heavy Stubber is way more powerful than our 21st century Heavy machine guns...then we have to start looking for the larger Autocannons of todays modern armies....20mm, 25mm, 30mm.

scubasteve04 wrote:The answer was not keep shooting the front armor until something happens (it wont),

Actually, that's not totally true. I read a few testimonies from WWII, and it seems that a tiger I or II tank could relatively easily be damaged or destroyed by repetitive hits from a 75 mm cannon with AT rounds (like the Sherman's cannon). Basically, the frontal armor of the tiger suffers damage with each armor piercing round it takes, and after 5-6 rounds on the same section of the armor plating, the hull of the tiger is breached.

This is why the famous A-10 thunderbolt is such an effective tank hunter. Its GAU-8 rotary cannon uses 30 mm rounds which, in theory, would not be able to inflict important damage to a modern battle tank. But this cannon fires 4 200 rounds per minute!

I believe even a terminator armor would be chewed up by this terrific rate of fire.

Yes, a 75mm gun could, with enough time, pop a tiger from the front.


in reality though, the Sherman isn't going to get more then a couple of rounds off before the tiger pops the sherman. especially at a distance.

even from the side, a 75mm gun could just bounce off a tiger.


even 76mm guns weren't garunteed to get through Tiger armor except at close range.

NagothDaCleaver wrote:Where is the option for "None Of The Above"

I don't believe any heavy artillery we poses currently is more powerful than an Earthshaker Battle Cannon and Termi's get their full save against it.

Futuristic armor composed of materials that are harder than anything we currently can create need futuristic weapons to penetrate them.

umm, possible brain fatr on my part, and slightly OT.....but wouldn't a termie have to take an invul save against an Earthshaker as it is double their toughness?

The GAU-8 in a vaccum, might penetrate Terminator armor (equivilent of an assault cannon IMO, which rends).

In reality, hitting a Terminator with a solid burst of rounds (No advanced targetting or anything, just fired line of sight) in a battle is not going to happen when factoring cover, the crux force field, and teleportation. The GAU-8 is a weapon built for fighting tanks, not infantry.

scubasteve04 wrote:The GAU-8 in a vaccum, might penetrate Terminator armor (equivilent of an assault cannon IMO, which rends).

In reality, hitting a Terminator with a solid burst of rounds (No advanced targetting or anything, just fired line of sight) in a battle is not going to happen when factoring cover, the crux force field, and teleportation. The GAU-8 is a weapon built for fighting tanks, not infantry.

I agree, but this was not exactly my point.

I was wondering which of our weapons could crack a termy suit open.
Of course, in real fighting conditions, (with his forcefield, his shiny assault cannon, its servo-muscles...) a single terminator would ruin the day of any modern army.

Especially if he had a storm shield...

Grey Templar wrote:
Railguns are real,

Bolters use actual real world technology,

Plasma weapons use the Magnetic Tunnel theory of plasma containment,

Space Ship weapons are mostly railguns of one type or another,

Exterminatus is a combination of Biological and conventional weaponry(unlike other planet killing weapons that cause planets to blast into each other by manipulating gravity which is currently scientifically impossable)

40k Skimmers use Magnetic plates to skim the planets magnetic field(and often have additional thrusters to gain orbit of a planet)

You're cherry-picking. 40k has all this, but it also has literal hell, literal demons, people who blow other people apart with mind bullets, fungus-people who make things happen through sheer force of will, and a ten-thousand year old psychic corpse who is also Jesus. If you want to make an argument that some of its technology has the same trappings as existing technology, you can make that argument, but don't try to tell me that 40k is the most realistic future setting ever. It's no Firefly, (where, aside from River Tam's supposed sixth sense), the majority of technology is rooted in hard science. It's not even Traveller, where the FTL system is largely handwaved, but the Third Imperium itself is largely rooted in reality, with some real effort made into figuring out the logistics of exactly how an empire that size manages to operate itself. It's not even Star Trek, and when your science is softer than "Bounce the Primary Particle Beam off the Main Deflector Dish," you know you've hit a new low.

Warhammer 40k is pure fantasy operating on Rule of Cool with the trappings of science fiction. It's a world where "Depleted Deuterium" gyrojet rounds are considered useful weapons (here is a hint: gyrojet technology was abandoned because it honestly sucks for small arms. Standard firearms are more stable, more powerful at close range, and way less likely to light everything around you on fire.). It's a place where chainsaw-swords are useful weapons and not stupidly dangerous, badly-balanced toys that would seize up and jam the first time they were swung into a human being (chainsaws are intended to cut through hard wood, not through soft, shreddable and pliable human flesh).

So honestly, speculating on whether X real world weapon can penetrate Y fantasy armor is as pointless as arguing whether Kimbo Slice could beat up Batman. The answer is always: "If Dan Abnett needs it to, sure."

A good question for clarification is what is the rate of fire. I'm pretty sure even a .22 bullet, if fired from a high-speed minigun at 400,000 rounds per second would be able to get through in a fairly short amount of time.

Just think of the weapons that have AP2 in the game and try to find a counterpart in real life. A lot of AP2 weapons are energy weapons, which we don't have obviously. Even stuff like tank cannons in 40k don't get you the AP2, so I think it would be a stretch to say any of our modern battlefield weapons would get the job done.

snake wrote:Just think of the weapons that have AP2 in the game and try to find a counterpart in real life. A lot of AP2 weapons are energy weapons, which we don't have obviously. Even stuff like tank cannons in 40k don't get you the AP2, so I think it would be a stretch to say any of our modern battlefield weapons would get the job done.

AP 2 weapons are energy weapons for the most part but AP- weapons like autoguns and Shotguns and AP 6 weapons like Heavy Stubbers can kill termies in the game, however infrequently it happens.

Actually, we do have directed energy weapons, it's just that most of them are still in dev and Alpha test. Honestly? We basically have Lascannons, they're just so big they have to be mounted on 747s. There's a humvee-mounted laser weapon that's just about to be sent into the field, actually.

Dogface 76 wrote:

snake wrote:Just think of the weapons that have AP2 in the game and try to find a counterpart in real life. A lot of AP2 weapons are energy weapons, which we don't have obviously. Even stuff like tank cannons in 40k don't get you the AP2, so I think it would be a stretch to say any of our modern battlefield weapons would get the job done.

AP 2 weapons are energy weapons for the most part but AP- weapons like autoguns and Shotguns and AP 6 weapons like Heavy Stubbers can kill termies in the game, however infrequently it happens.

Armor piercing refers to the ability of a weapon to punch through armor and thus ignore it. Based on their designation as AP- and AP 6, such weapons do not have the typical ability to pierce terminator armor. Otherwise, they would be AP2. Failing a save against an AP- and AP6, etc, weapon more likely represents hitting a joint, some kind of armor malfunction, or torrential rate of fire (see: GAU-8, etc) etc. The OP asked what kind of weapons can pierce through the thickest part of the armor, which is why I suggested a comparison to AP2 weapons - they are the only weapons that typically do this. Otherwise, if you take chance into account, there are probably any number of weapons that could bring a terminator down, such as the shotguns and stubbers you rightly referenced.

Anvildude wrote:Actually, we do have directed energy weapons, it's just that most of them are still in dev and Alpha test. Honestly? We basically have Lascannons, they're just so big they have to be mounted on 747s. There's a humvee-mounted laser weapon that's just about to be sent into the field, actually.

I've heard such, but never really looked into it. Any juicy links you can share?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed_energy_weapons

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/4231116

http://gizmodo.com/#!5454791/video-of-humvee+mounted-laser-avenger-killing-bombs


That's Wikipedia, Popular Mechanics, and Gizmodo.

There's also a few non-lethal variations, such as the "Very Uncomfortable Heat Ray" and the "Really Loud Noise Beam" but we're not really interested in those for 40K.

Wait till that heat ray is powerful enough to cause 3rd degree burns.

21st century melta gun...

themocaw wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
Railguns are real,

Bolters use actual real world technology,

Plasma weapons use the Magnetic Tunnel theory of plasma containment,

Space Ship weapons are mostly railguns of one type or another,

Exterminatus is a combination of Biological and conventional weaponry(unlike other planet killing weapons that cause planets to blast into each other by manipulating gravity which is currently scientifically impossable)

40k Skimmers use Magnetic plates to skim the planets magnetic field(and often have additional thrusters to gain orbit of a planet)

You're cherry-picking. 40k has all this, but it also has literal hell, literal demons, people who blow other people apart with mind bullets, fungus-people who make things happen through sheer force of will, and a ten-thousand year old psychic corpse who is also Jesus. If you want to make an argument that some of its technology has the same trappings as existing technology, you can make that argument, but don't try to tell me that 40k is the most realistic future setting ever. It's no Firefly, (where, aside from River Tam's supposed sixth sense), the majority of technology is rooted in hard science. It's not even Traveller, where the FTL system is largely handwaved, but the Third Imperium itself is largely rooted in reality, with some real effort made into figuring out the logistics of exactly how an empire that size manages to operate itself. It's not even Star Trek, and when your science is softer than "Bounce the Primary Particle Beam off the Main Deflector Dish," you know you've hit a new low.

Warhammer 40k is pure fantasy operating on Rule of Cool with the trappings of science fiction. It's a world where "Depleted Deuterium" gyrojet rounds are considered useful weapons (here is a hint: gyrojet technology was abandoned because it honestly sucks for small arms. Standard firearms are more stable, more powerful at close range, and way less likely to light everything around you on fire.). It's a place where chainsaw-swords are useful weapons and not stupidly dangerous, badly-balanced toys that would seize up and jam the first time they were swung into a human being (chainsaws are intended to cut through hard wood, not through soft, shreddable and pliable human flesh).

So honestly, speculating on whether X real world weapon can penetrate Y fantasy armor is as pointless as arguing whether Kimbo Slice could beat up Batman. The answer is always: "If Dan Abnett needs it to, sure."

Wai..What? Did they actually say depleted deuterium or are you misquoting? Our anti tank rounds are depleted uranium (DU), used because uranium is heavy as crap and very hard to stop when it's in motion. Deuterium is a hydrogen isotope (the lightest element) used in making hydrogen bombs and fusion research

Praxiss wrote:

NagothDaCleaver wrote:Where is the option for "None Of The Above"

I don't believe any heavy artillery we poses currently is more powerful than an Earthshaker Battle Cannon and Termi's get their full save against it.

Futuristic armor composed of materials that are harder than anything we currently can create need futuristic weapons to penetrate them.

umm, possible brain fatr on my part, and slightly OT.....but wouldn't a termie have to take an invul save against an Earthshaker as it is double their toughness?

No. Instant death doesn't automatically mean your armor is pierced. Many weapons are high strength low AP, and models get an armor save against them, even if they could cause instant death if they wound.

Most of the AP 1 and 2 weapons are heat-based... plasma, melta, massive lasers, etc... And in close combat I always imagine power weapons going through armour like a hot knife goes through butter... they're like really extreme polystyrene cutters! The only ordnance commonly encountered AP2 I can think of is the demolisher, but in the old fluff I think that was a plasma shell or something wierd.

I think the weakness to terminator armour is extreme heat, from a one-shot-one-kill perspective, and so none of the choices really cut it. I imagine the armour is a bit like Iron Man, and can pretty much take an artillery shell... Although the impact would knock the termi down. That said, ignoring the one-shot-kill thing, anything upwards from 20mm could probably take one down with sheer weight of fire, especially with dense AP shot. The shells would push the termi back, chipping and shredding the armour gradually, until it gave and shattered.

Of course, there's always the failsafe force field... lol

Arclaw wrote:Most of the AP 1 and 2 weapons are heat-based... plasma, melta, massive lasers, etc... And in close combat I always imagine power weapons going through armour like a hot knife goes through butter... they're like really extreme polystyrene cutters! The only ordnance commonly encountered AP2 I can think of is the demolisher, but in the old fluff I think that was a plasma shell or something wierd.

I think the weakness to terminator armour is extreme heat, from a one-shot-one-kill perspective, and so none of the choices really cut it. I imagine the armour is a bit like Iron Man, and can pretty much take an artillery shell... Although the impact would knock the termi down. That said, ignoring the one-shot-kill thing, anything upwards from 20mm could probably take one down with sheer weight of fire, especially with dense AP shot. The shells would push the termi back, chipping and shredding the armour gradually, until it gave and shattered.

Of course, there's always the failsafe force field... lol

And the fact that the terminator will be shooting his automatic RPG cannon at you... or is wielding a storm shield while firing anti-tank missiles designed 38k years from now at you from his back-mounted MRL...

Brotherjulian wrote: Wai..What? Did they actually say depleted deuterium or are you misquoting? Our anti tank rounds are depleted uranium (DU), used because uranium is heavy as crap and very hard to stop when it's in motion. Deuterium is a hydrogen isotope (the lightest element) used in making hydrogen bombs and fusion research

Deuterium is used in the detonating charge.


the actual round is made out of a metal.

if you think about it ork guns a crap and their rounds go though the SM terminator armour.

thats because orks are psychic and they THINK the rounds can go through terminators armor.

Orks think, therefore they kill

Grey Templar wrote:

Brotherjulian wrote: Wai..What? Did they actually say depleted deuterium or are you misquoting? Our anti tank rounds are depleted uranium (DU), used because uranium is heavy as crap and very hard to stop when it's in motion. Deuterium is a hydrogen isotope (the lightest element) used in making hydrogen bombs and fusion research

Deuterium is used in the detonating charge.

the actual round is made out of a metal.

Depleted Deuterium. Get it right. It's an infamous little blurb in. . . I think the 4th edition rulebook or SM Codex. . . on the page with the cutaway of the bolter round.

Either way, it's the explosive.

I think people had the erronious notion that it was being used for the same reason we use Depleted Uranium in Savo rounds.

Grey Templar wrote:Either way, it's the explosive.

I think people had the erronious notion that it was being used for the same reason we use Depleted Uranium in Savo rounds.

You mean APFSDS Rounds? Also known as Armor Piercing Fin-Stablized Discarding Sabot rounds? Sabot meaning "shoe," referring to the plastic "shoe" that holds the depleted uranium dart in place in the gun barrel?

Not to mention that there is no such thing as Depleted Deuterium?

yeah, i meant Sabot rounds.

Grey Templar wrote:yeah, i meant Sabot rounds.

Let's test your gun knowledge further. How many rounds of .50 BMG does a DEAGLE brand Desert Eagle hold in an extended clip?

themocaw wrote:Let's test your gun knowledge further. How many rounds of .50 BMG does a DEAGLE brand Desert Eagle hold in an extended clip?

Trick question. Desert eagle uses .50 action express

No such thing as deagle brand either

.50 holds 7 IIRC, .44 holds 8, .357 holds 9





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nice /k/ references though...

An AP2 Leman Russ demolisher has a maximum table range of 24". Given an optimistic 40k scale of 1/48 that's 1152 inches, or 96 feet, or an amazing 29 metres!

The exceptionally long ranged AP2 vanquisher can hit things 72" away. That's an optimistic scale 3456 inches, or 288 feet, or ALMOST 88 METRES!!

The modern generic M256 cannon arming the M1A1 and M1A2, (abrams) in contrast, is accurate and lethal to armour as a direct-fire weapon to around 9600+ feet, or around 3000 metres. (or 2400 inches / 200 feet scale tabletop range, lol!)
A generic indirect artillery/basilisk equivalent, like a L118 artillery gun, can reliably hit 17km+, (or 1100 feet + scale tabletop range!!)

Now obviously major concessions have to be made to the weapon profiles to allow them to actually be playable on a tabletop, but taking the RAW as even a very, very, very loose basis for the weapons means that nearly all 40k weaponry is woefully underpowered in terms of range compared to 21st century weapons. Their terminal effects when they hit, however, generally seem to be MUCH greater! I really do think the resistance of a terminator suit to 21st century high density projectiles with huge velocity & kinetic energy wouldn't be that good, as there are no 40k weapons that possess those qualities and therefore minimal need for a defense against them.

TL;DR In my opinion against 40k heavy weight solid or explosive low velocity ammo, the terminators are nigh on invulnerable, but against 21st century (pre-dark age of technology?) high energy, high velocity rounds they would be holed.

Arclaw wrote:Most of the AP 1 and 2 weapons are heat-based... plasma, melta, massive lasers, etc... And in close combat I always imagine power weapons going through armour like a hot knife goes through butter... they're like really extreme polystyrene cutters! The only ordnance commonly encountered AP2 I can think of is the demolisher, but in the old fluff I think that was a plasma shell or something wierd.

I think the weakness to terminator armour is extreme heat, from a one-shot-one-kill perspective, and so none of the choices really cut it. I imagine the armour is a bit like Iron Man, and can pretty much take an artillery shell... Although the impact would knock the termi down. That said, ignoring the one-shot-kill thing, anything upwards from 20mm could probably take one down with sheer weight of fire, especially with dense AP shot. The shells would push the termi back, chipping and shredding the armour gradually, until it gave and shattered.

Of course, there's always the failsafe force field... lol

I think the opposite is true of termy armor. Most AP1 and 2 weapons happen to be heat based in 40k yes, but the name ceramite implies ceramics (massive heat resistance but brittle) allied with something to reinforce them)
There were attempts (and this may have lead to Chobham armor?) to infuse ceramics with molten aluminum in this regard. This and the background that the original intent of the terminator armor program was maintenance inside of plasma reactors (HEAT!) makes me believe TDA armor would be very resistant to heat, and it's actual weakness should be powerful kinetic energy rounds. (rail guns, sabot tank rounds) I liken krak missiles to a modern HEAT missile which actually use a jet of plasma on impact so I think the armor would resist those very well

Honestly I dont think any of the stuff in the poll could penetrate the armor, but something like the heavy artillery could probably hit him hard enough to internally wound him or snap his neck maybe.

Actually, there's been some good points made. The energy transfer from modern day weapons is honestly much, much higher than probably a lot of the projectile weapons of 40k, and are more likely on par with directed energy weapons, suggesting a lower AP.

How strong are genestealers? Their claws are laced with adamantium and seem to be the one creature, fluff wise, that can handle terminators. so, depending on how strong genestealers are, you can figure out what kind of force you need to pierce the armor.

Seriously, everyone using tabletop examples to "prove" that terminator armour would be a pushover for modern-day technology need to read the OP again. Marines in general, and especially terminators, are woefully underpowered on the tabletop. Using tabletop range as "proof" when it obviously is logarithmic isn't very convincing either...

Mostly the anti-tank weapons would have to be used IMO. A lighter cannon would potentially do some damage to power armor (an autocannon is a wide range of cannons, after all, and even the lighter variants certainly can do some damage to a Marine and his armor in fluff even if it cannot penetrate armor in game) but this is terminator armor we're talking about, it's pretty much the best armor in 40k and equivalent to wearing a tank.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Seriously, everyone using tabletop examples to "prove" that terminator armour would be a pushover for modern-day technology need to read the OP again. Marines in general, and especially terminators, are woefully underpowered on the tabletop. Using tabletop range as "proof" when it obviously is logarithmic isn't very convincing either...

If we're going off the fluff, Law of Awesome is doubly in effect. Which is why things like "lol cactus spikes" or "I AM CIAPHAS CAIN WITH A CHAINSWORD, RAWR" can kill Chaos Space Marines, because they're awesome and override the Space Marine's Awesomeness Barrier.

That's it! There's psychers and Orks all throughout the Galaxy (and possibly universe) aren't there? Rule of Cool is a natural law! The more Awesome something is, the better it works for whatever it's doing!

Actually the way Orks spread,a nd how long they have been spreading, kinda makes sense. It's almost like a macrocosm of the way spores spread.

Anvildude wrote:That's it! There's psychers and Orks all throughout the Galaxy (and possibly universe) aren't there? Rule of Cool is a natural law! The more Awesome something is, the better it works for whatever it's doing!

Holy crud. I think you're right.

Termis can be killed by lasguns and guardsmen in close combat.

.308s could pop termis with focus fire.

a 105mm shot would vaporize a terminator.

Best I could say for a comparison would be a bunch of present day spec-ops fighting American Civil War era soldiers.

While the fight would be obviously lop sided, all the kevlar in the world wouldn't save you from 50 muskets or a cannonball hit to the chest.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
a 105mm shot would vaporize a terminator.

And yet, if we're using table top examples, a Storm Eagle rocket doesn't even penetrate the armour. That's the equivalent of a cruise missile 38k years from now, and they routinely rip through any vehicle in the game.

That's the fantasy aspect of it though. Some of it just doesn't make sense, for example a pulse rifle according to what it actually would be more realistically represented as a S5-6 wep that has AP 2-3.

an AC-130's larger caliber gun could take on a termie no problem


Automatically Appended Next Post:
an AC-130's larger caliber gun could take on a termie no problem

Meh, the AC130 is lightly armed compared to the A10.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
a 105mm shot would vaporize a terminator.

And yet, if we're using table top examples, a Storm Eagle rocket doesn't even penetrate the armour. That's the equivalent of a cruise missile 38k years from now, and they routinely rip through any vehicle in the game.

That's because of the way the rules are written.

They are not intended to be realistic.

Kilkrazy wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
a 105mm shot would vaporize a terminator.

And yet, if we're using table top examples, a Storm Eagle rocket doesn't even penetrate the armour. That's the equivalent of a cruise missile 38k years from now, and they routinely rip through any vehicle in the game.

That's because of the way the rules are written.

They are not intended to be realistic.

Which is why I've been advocating using fluff and not table top...

Indeed. That's kinda why I said it'd take an anti-tank weapon to penetrate terminator armor, though perhaps a lighter cannon might be able to dent it, destroy its weaponry, etc.

Something like a burst from the GAU-8A Avenger might do the trick-- this being a rotary anti-tank cannon which is a larger than your car and is armed with specially designed anti-tank rounds, firing in two second bursts at 4,200 rounds per minute or 70 per second). A modern equivalent of an assault cannon basically.

The GAU-8 has Rending.

Yeah, just ask any tank that the gun has fired on.

Or building.

Or mountain.

I'd say Heavy 10 Rending, because, let's face it, most of the 40k weapons have incredibly slow rates of fire compared to the capabilities of modern weapons. And that's allowing for the abstraction of an Assault 2 actually being fully automatic. The agreed onomotopoeia is Dakkadakka, after all, not "wvHRRRRRRRRRRT"

That's one place I think modern weapons take the cake over 41st millenium weaponry, is in sheer rof, especially with the new MetalStorm technology.


Fun fact, though, we already have the technology to make Bolters, or the equivalent. Heck, check out Gyrojet weapons systems.

Any fluff on the hardness and tensile strength equivalence of the adamantium-ceramite composites used in Terminator getups? Compared to say, the xH36 grades of shipbuilding steel?

2-10 times stronger and the Termmie gunna die.

100-1000 times stronger the SM gunna die from non-stop giggles.

I said 75mm only cause the armor is insanely strong but not invincible. but it hitting in the right place it could drop one with some trouble.

UselessSage wrote:Any fluff on the hardness and tensile strength equivalence of the adamantium-ceramite composites used in Terminator getups? Compared to say, the xH36 grades of shipbuilding steel?

2-10 times stronger and the Termmie gunna die.

100-1000 times stronger the SM gunna die from non-stop giggles.

There is extensive materials data in some of the Black Library books.

However, it doesn't work like that.

Extremely hard materials are more brittle, fact of physics. That's why armour is made of material with a good balance of toughness and tensile strength.

Either a powerful enough projectile or a stream of lighter projectiles can damage the armour.

There is also the possibility of shock damage to the SM inside the suit, as other people have mentioned earlier.

A 30mm depleted uranium armor-piercing round from an A-10 Thunderbolt Cannon would work, unless the invulnerable save kicked in.

One of my favorite stories in WD a while back was about some Space Marines including Terminators fighting in a hive city. They were doing their thing when a Titan strolled around a corner and stepped on their leader. The others were heartbroken. The Titan didn't even break stride. "That monster will never know that he just smooshed one of the greatest warriors the Imperium has ever known" they lamented. Then a moment later they heard stirrings from the rubble and sure enough their fearless leader rose: his armour ruined, he himself bloody as hell. He simply remarked "Move out".

KamikazeCanuck wrote:One of my favorite stories in WD a while back was about some Space Marines including Terminators fighting in a hive city. They were doing their thing when a Titan strolled around a corner and stepped on their leader. The others were heartbroken. The Titan didn't even break stride. "That monster will never know that he just smooshed one of the greatest warriors the Imperium has ever known" they lamented. Then a moment later they heard stirrings from the rubble and sure enough their fearless leader rose: his armour ruined, he himself bloody as hell. He simply remarked "Move out".

Perfect! Now we only need to calculate the weight of a Titan and use that to estimate how much pressure was put on the terminator! Sounds like a walk in the park!

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:One of my favorite stories in WD a while back was about some Space Marines including Terminators fighting in a hive city. They were doing their thing when a Titan strolled around a corner and stepped on their leader. The others were heartbroken. The Titan didn't even break stride. "That monster will never know that he just smooshed one of the greatest warriors the Imperium has ever known" they lamented. Then a moment later they heard stirrings from the rubble and sure enough their fearless leader rose: his armour ruined, he himself bloody as hell. He simply remarked "Move out".

Perfect! Now we only need to calculate the weight of a Titan and use that to estimate how much pressure was put on the terminator! Sounds like a walk in the park!

Let's start from the beginning then...

What kind of titan was it?

A small warhound or a big warlord?

Warhound titan stepping on a guy might not be as much as you think.


when you are moving forward, you never have your entire weight on the foot at any one time.

thats why Firewalkers don't get burned, they don't have time for their feet to sink into the coals and absorbe the heat.


the titan would certaintly do damage, but it would definitly not be as much as you would think.

Nevermind that the guy would also be pushed into the ground a bit more likely than not, and that not all of the weight is distributed across him (titan feet being larger than he).

It was probably a Warhound but I don't recall if it even specified.
You two are going with "Getting stepped by a Titan isn't that bad". Really? Really?

Grey Templar wrote:Warhound titan stepping on a guy might not be as much as you think.


when you are moving forward, you never have your entire weight on the foot at any one time.

thats why Firewalkers don't get burned, they don't have time for their feet to sink into the coals and absorbe the heat.


the titan would certaintly do damage, but it would definitly not be as much as you would think.

A warhound titan weights something like 400-410 tonnes right?

So yeah, it is not that much. Especially since a warhound's feet are quite large compared to its total size. It means that the weight is spread on a larger area (as melissia said). But I don't really know the exact size of a warhound foot. I would need a FW model to calculate it, and i'm not lucky enough to have my own titan.

Laodamia wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Warhound titan stepping on a guy might not be as much as you think.


when you are moving forward, you never have your entire weight on the foot at any one time.

thats why Firewalkers don't get burned, they don't have time for their feet to sink into the coals and absorbe the heat.


the titan would certaintly do damage, but it would definitly not be as much as you would think.

A warhound titan weights something like 400-410 tonnes right?

So yeah, it is not that much. Especially since a warhound's feet are quite large compared to its total size. It means that the weight is spread on a larger area (as melissia said). But I don't really know the exact size of a warhound foot. I would need a FW model to calculate it, and i'm not lucky enough to have my own titan.

It depends on the surface too, if the terminator is between a warhounds foot and a flooring tougher than the terminators armour then the termy is fethed however if the armour is tougher than the floor is possible that the floor will give before the termy will.

Although if the floor isn't as tough as a terminators armour I would wonder how it supports a warhound in the first place.

Dude, you got stepped on by a titan!
No prob, bro.

The floor didn't give. It was a Hive superstructure. No Give.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The floor didn't give. It was a Hive superstructure. No Give.

So hive materials must be stronger than terminator armour which must be stronger or equally as tough as the warhounds foot plating that was in contact with the terminator armour.

That is nowhere near watertight as a claim as 40k is science fantasy but you know.

I would also like to remind people that terminator armour was designed to operate fully inside running fusion reactors.

No I'm not. Just that it is feasible that it would damage the armor if said armor was hard enough (and durable enough, so that it wasn't just brittle), but not necessarily squish it.

the titan's weight is spread out a lot by the surface area of it's feet. For example an M1A2 battle tank weighs 69.5 tons, it's ground pressure however is only 15.4 psi (pounds per square inch)
That's less pressure than most of you probably make walking.

corpsesarefun wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The floor didn't give. It was a Hive superstructure. No Give.

So hive materials must be stronger than terminator armour which must be stronger or equally as tough as the warhounds foot plating that was in contact with the terminator armour.

That is nowhere near watertight as a claim as 40k is science fantasy but you know.

I would also like to remind people that terminator armour was designed to operate fully inside running fusion reactors.

Should be noted that in a way the armour did give. It was destroyed although it served its function. I would say the prodigious amount of adamantium in TDA saved his life.

Brotherjulian wrote:the titan's weight is spread out a lot by the surface area of it's feet. For example an M1A2 battle tank weighs 69.5 tons, it's ground pressure however is only 15.4 psi (pounds per square inch)
That's less pressure than most of you probably make walking.

However when you are stepping on something only the area in contact with your foot is actually being used so in the stage of stepping where one puts their weight on the forward foot you would have most of the weight of the warhound being put into the armour (presuming the terrain was flat and the termy was the only thing in the way of the ground and the warhounds foot).

I find it challenging to accept that terminator armour could warp enough to absorb the force of a titan stepping on it without damaging the titans foot, damaging the floor or killing the pilot.

I mean think about it, if all the force is put into the armour then it must warp in some manner to absorb that force which would mean that you have bits of Armour stabbing the marine inside unless it has specially designed weak points for the armour to warp into to avoid harming the marine however that means that TDA would have weak points which isn't hugely practical in combat.

Ostrich eggs can support the weight of a 250 pound person(IIRC)


thats alot of weight on a, realitivly, small object.


you could think of Terminator armor in a similer way.


the Terminator armor barely gave way, only wounding the wearer.



a warhound titans foot(middle toe to back of rear toe) is a little over 5"

each main toe is about 2" long.

Grey Templar wrote:Ostrich eggs can support the weight of a 250 pound person(IIRC)


thats alot of weight on a, realitivly, small object.


you could think of Terminator armor in a similer way.


the Terminator armor barely gave way, only wounding the wearer.

That is because the eggs shape transfers the force onto the underside and then onto the ground which then absorbs it which is a possibility for terminator suits but given their shape I really doubt it, especially if it started to give way.

the Terminator armor has more surface area in contact with the ground then the Egg does.

this means more weight is transferred rather then less.

oh, I totally think the ground gives and the termie gets driven into it.

Grey Templar wrote:the Terminator armor has more surface area in contact with the ground then the Egg does.

this means more weight is transferred rather then less.

Not always.

Eggs work by having a shape that transfers weight evenly to the base and then onto the ground, domes were used in large older buildings because of this property.

However terminator armour is not domed and will not transfer force evenly unless the material is is made out of is under a pretty specific set of conditions depending on the exact forces and surface area's involved.

It is far more likely for either the ground to the armour to give, most likely the ground.

well, a terminator on his back or belly will be round in Cross Section.

if the terminator was driven straight into the ground his legs would have snapped off at the hip.

Grey Templar wrote:well, a terminator on his back or belly will be round in Cross Section.

if the terminator was driven straight into the ground his legs would have snapped off at the hip.

I was thinking of a terminator laying on his back being stepped on to give him a fighting chance, if he is standing then the poor guy is screwed.

he most likely got knocked over when stepped on.

its unlikely the titan came straight down on his head.

Grey Templar wrote:he most likely got knocked over when stepped on.

its unlikely the titan came straight down on his head.

Probably, even so that barrel chest they have would take the brunt and destroy his vital organs due to that pathetic ellipse based chest armour

But as I said, this is science fantasy so the armour is made from unobtainium and thus does not break.

except in this case it did break and the guy was seriously hurt.


but he did survive.

corpsesarefun wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:well, a terminator on his back or belly will be round in Cross Section.

if the terminator was driven straight into the ground his legs would have snapped off at the hip.

I was thinking of a terminator laying on his back being stepped on to give him a fighting chance, if he is standing then the poor guy is screwed.

Not necessarily.

Imagine the following situation:

The TDA is standing.
The warhounds steps on the TDA.
The titan's strength while walking forces the TDA to hunch, and finally topple over.
The TDA is leaning on the floor when the titan's foot finally touches ground.

It would give a nasty headache to the termy, but it is plausible.

Grey Templar wrote:except in this case it did break and the guy was seriously hurt.


but he did survive.

In which case the armour must have designated failure points, which makes me ponder why this isn't well known amoungst those fighting termies?

Brotherjulian wrote:oh, I totally think the ground gives and the termie gets driven into it.

That's kinda what I think too. It's almost cartoonish.

Look, the IoM has a rep has being primitive but actually Humanity's tech is some of the top in the galaxy. In one catagory in particular Humans take a back seat to no one and that's armour! Humans have the best armour, its what they excel at, and TDA is the best of the best of the best. It is the only armour that can stop a plasma bolt to the heart cold or shrug off a melta blast that could blow up a Land Raider. Most invulnerable saves are provided by energy fields or speed. Terminator armour is the only one that provides invulnerabilty based on sheer 'ardness.

How strong are genestealers because their one of the few creature that can physical tear open adamantium. If you can match the strength of a genestealer or broodlord, then you've got your weapon.

It's not just strength, but also aim, sharpness, leverage, etc. Even terminator armor has joints.

remember, also, that the Titan's foot isn't going to be perfectly smoothe. It's most likely treaded, which means the TDA was probably inside one of the crevasses on the bottom of the foot. Possibly in a toe joint.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Look, the IoM has a rep has being primitive but actually Humanity's tech is some of the top in the galaxy. In one catagory in particular Humans take a back seat to no one and that's armour! Humans have the best armour, its what they excel at, and TDA is the best of the best of the best. It is the only armour that can stop a plasma bolt to the heart cold or shrug off a melta blast that could blow up a Land Raider. Most invulnerable saves are provided by energy fields or speed. Terminator armour is the only one that provides invulnerabilty based on sheer 'ardness.

That's a good point.

But there still must be a limit to its resistance. Some weapons can tear through a termy suit. So I guess a few of our most powerful weapons can too.

Caliber means nothing.

A twelve-pounder British cannon from the early 19th Century had a 115mm caliber ball. And a 115mm cannonball would do barely annoy an M1 Abrams tank. That's in just 200 years.

I'd say it'd be crazy to assume a similar level of tech advance hasn't been made in 30,000 years. Our man-portable or vehicle-mounted weapons would likely ping off the hardest points of TDA.

And yet, there's still physics to consider.

Didn't Imperial Armor have this thing where they talked about the thickness of a Land Raider's armor, and then described a number that's about equal to a Bradley Fighting Vehicle (WAY thinner than a modern Abrams main battle tank) for one of the most heavily armored vehicles in the setting? That might be a good gauge for how powerful anti-vehicle weapons are.

themocaw wrote:Didn't Imperial Armor have this thing where they talked about the thickness of a Land Raider's armor, and then described a number that's about equal to a Bradley Fighting Vehicle (WAY thinner than a modern Abrams main battle tank) for one of the most heavily armored vehicles in the setting? That might be a good gauge for how powerful anti-vehicle weapons are.

But a Bradley's armor is not made of adamantium or ceramite alloys.

Because a LR has the same armor thickness does not mean it has the same resistance.

Laodamia wrote:

themocaw wrote:Didn't Imperial Armor have this thing where they talked about the thickness of a Land Raider's armor, and then described a number that's about equal to a Bradley Fighting Vehicle (WAY thinner than a modern Abrams main battle tank) for one of the most heavily armored vehicles in the setting? That might be a good gauge for how powerful anti-vehicle weapons are.

But a Bradley's armor is not made of adamantium or ceramite alloys.

Because a LR has the same armor thickness does not mean it has the same resistance.

No, the number was like, "XX inches of ceramite, equal to YY inches of steel," but the "YY inches of steel" number was laughably small for a main battle tank.

Laodamia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Look, the IoM has a rep has being primitive but actually Humanity's tech is some of the top in the galaxy. In one catagory in particular Humans take a back seat to no one and that's armour! Humans have the best armour, its what they excel at, and TDA is the best of the best of the best. It is the only armour that can stop a plasma bolt to the heart cold or shrug off a melta blast that could blow up a Land Raider. Most invulnerable saves are provided by energy fields or speed. Terminator armour is the only one that provides invulnerabilty based on sheer 'ardness.

That's a good point.

But there still must be a limit to its resistance. Some weapons can tear through a termy suit. So I guess a few of our most powerful weapons can too.

A grot-built Derringer can kill a Terminator because, you know, happens. But your original question was what can pierce a TDA chest plate. Generally it's proof against all solid rounds and even gives you a chance against some matter -disentigrating energy rounds. Whether or not the wearer can survive these collosal impacts or not is another issue.

Terminator suits were built to use inside working fusion reactors? Really?

Because a fusion reactor would be full of plasma, and plasma seems to ignore armour saves, I would assume even termie armour would be no protection!

I assume the fool wearing the suit wouldn't actually touch the plasma itself.


the suit would be able to survive the radiation is the main point.

That's what the 5+ invuln is.

themocaw wrote:

Laodamia wrote:

themocaw wrote:Didn't Imperial Armor have this thing where they talked about the thickness of a Land Raider's armor, and then described a number that's about equal to a Bradley Fighting Vehicle (WAY thinner than a modern Abrams main battle tank) for one of the most heavily armored vehicles in the setting? That might be a good gauge for how powerful anti-vehicle weapons are.

But a Bradley's armor is not made of adamantium or ceramite alloys.

Because a LR has the same armor thickness does not mean it has the same resistance.

No, the number was like, "XX inches of ceramite, equal to YY inches of steel," but the "YY inches of steel" number was laughably small for a main battle tank.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SciFiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale

I mentioned it in an earlier post, but I think we can all agree that the terminator suit is far different in the fluff than in the game.

We have precious little to compare our notions of explosives or metallurgy to that of 40k, so we are stuck with simple speculation.

Modern autocannons, gatling guns, artillery resemble their 40k counterpart in only one way, their looks.

I think we can assume that we could blow nice big trench for it to fall in to.

We could possibly overcome it's power generation enough to cause the occupant to buckle at the knees by a large enough blow.

With enough ammo moving at sufficiently high speed and mass one might rip off an arm or leg iif it hit the right weak spot, umm, whatever that might be.

Or, we could, since I think it's even beyond this suits capabilities to increase it's own mass, kick it around a battlefield like an adamantium-ceramite 'can' with a large enough caliber solid shot or explosion. What this would do to the occupant is anyones guess. Physics still rules even in the 40k universe... I think.

Termys have had buildings dropped on them and live i think they can take the artillery shell maybe a direct hit with an amore piecing shell to the head will kill him?

Having a building drop on one and live is easy. People do that all the time IRL.

i always just thort of termanators as a mini 1 man tank but if you hit a tank hard
it ruptures so i think the termanator whould too. but thats only my personal opinion

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:If they don't wear a helm then David with his sling and a pebble from a stream ought do the job.

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