Ok, so recently I have a friend who has been complaining to me that IG is OP. More specifically mech-vets and vendettas. He claims that they are OP for their ability to take 3 special weps, they're cheap, and I can take up to 6 and that chimeras are OP because they are cheap and have 5 firing ports. He also claims this because IG have won the Ard' Boyz tourny for the past however many years since their new codex. All in all, he thinks they're basically un-killable/un-beatable (which I don't get b/c he and other people have beaten me...maybe I'm doing something wrong?!?). I'd like to attribute this to the fact that he plays tau, which isn't the most currently competitive army so he judges every other army off of that. But he's beaten me before and acts like it's a miracle when it does happen.

Now I went looking in past general discussions for articles on this and found one that dated back to 2009. Now that we've had a few years with 5th ed. IG and that more new 5th ed. codexes have come out to stand up to them, what are dakka's views on IG in general? Are they op like my friend believes? Or am I right in believing because his army hasn't had an update, his views are a bit skewed as to what is and is not op?

Also, if you do think that there is a specific IG unit you think is op, I'm curious to know what and why you think it is.
Thanks!

Just like every army, it all depends on the general, but IG are rated as top tier. Personally, I haven't lost to them yet, but I know a lot of people have difficulty dealing with them and they can be frustrating. However, if your friend is basing whether they are overpowered or not on the fact that his Tau lose to them, he really needs to read up on tactics and try a different army. Tau are one of the weakest armies out there right now, and if he is basing OP armies off of how Tau play against them, he needs to switch armies. Or play another game. They aren't OP, they're just good. If you want OP, look to Space Wolves and Blood Angels (and in my neck of the woods Daemons-which nobody has been able to figure out how to handle. Hehe...)

IG shoot the pants off of Tau. There's very little that will make his day better because his codex is one of the most outdated whereas mech IG are a fully up to date 5e army.

If you get T1, it's hardly even a game.

I think the Vendetta is under-costed. 130 for three TL LCs is absurdly cheap.

I guess that could them inherently "over-powered" maybe?

That being the case, he probably is just venting some annoyance because the Tau really do need a decent update.

If it has stats, it's beatable. But I agree with your friend. Fighting Imperial Guard is an uphill battle for most other codexes, with cheap options and superficial weaknesses. It pretty much runs hand and hand with the current meta game and I highly doubt they'll ever be dethroned short of an edition change.

IG are near the top of the power bell curve, along with Spacewolves and Blood Angels.

Its not that any of these codecii are inherently cheesy through and through, but that certain units are, and everyone takes them, all the time, everywhere because thet are the 'best' or 'most competative (ie cheesy, generally)...

Vendetta Vets are pretty potent, but not unbeatable, even with tau. Tau struggle agaisnt most things these days (old codex vs power creep) just like Necrons.

I am convinced they are. Their bloody tanks, that's what it is, they roll around the battlefield at will blowing everything to kingdom come and there's nothing I have that even touches them. Their troops are spectacularly poor but that doesn't come close to balancing it.

Oh, and barrages. Ordinance falling arbitarily from the sky seems a tad unfair.

seejay wrote:I am convinced they are. Their bloody tanks, that's what it is, they roll around the battlefield at will blowing everything to kingdom come and there's nothing I have that even touches them. Their troops are spectacularly poor but that doesn't come close to balancing it.

Oh, and barrages. Ordinance falling arbitarily from the sky seems a tad unfair.

Play CSM and use outflanking Chosen with Meltaguns in a rhino, Raptors with Meltaguns and Obliterator spam. Trust me, IG players will HATE you and you can eat them alive. I had one friend insist on using Imperial Armor lists, all tanks, no infantry at all and I blew him to pieces with CSM with ease. 5 Meltaguns to side armor eat units of Leman Russes

Might help if we/I know what army you play to offer suggestions, I'm just offering something that I know will eat IG alive. Bright/Dark lance spam for Eldar will eat most mech alive too, as well as DSing assault squads with melta/combi-meltas. That should give you plenty of armies to choose from that will murder IG.

I do agree they are top tier, but maybe it's because I play guard that I feel they aren't necessarily op. Like Doctor Optimal said, the only thing I consider being likely op in the IG codex is the vendetta, but I use 2 of those. I don't feel overly guilty for it either, b/c they're fun and they get the job done. But I do feel a little bad, when I pull my 2 vendettas out and just hear the other player groan, lol. I personally think any army can beat one of those IG leaf-blower lists, they just have to expect it and build their list accordingly. I often find my own mech-vets have a lot of trouble with horde armies like nids or orks so I don't really see them as unbeatable.

But we'll see, he's starting a space puppies army so maybe I can turn the tables on him and complain how broken they are when he beats me and see how he likes it. Or when I beat him, prepare myself for another barrage of his usual, but often entertaining, rage.

I will admit not knowing guard too terribly well, but while yes some of the guard vehicles are underpriced (looking at you vendetta) I wouldn't call them overpowered. Cheese is usually a state of mind from what I've seen (doesn't mean it doesn't exist though). If you want to shut your friend up about guard being OP try using a non-competitive (maybe even fluff oriented) lists. There arent too many excuses for that if you still beat him. All I have to say is when I'd beat people with 2nd edition dark eldar they'd still find a way to get mad at them for having "this one rule".

Yeah, Russes aren't too hard to pop. For tau, he's got the rail guns which I despise and always target first, which he has come to expect by putting them in cover with a full load out of shield drones. But other than that any deep striking unit or outflanking unit can pretty much clean up russes and basilisk chassis. I actually stopped using bassies b/c I've never had any luck with them before they get melta'd.


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Eura wrote:I will admit not knowing guard too terribly well, but while yes some of the guard vehicles are underpriced (looking at you vendetta) I wouldn't call them overpowered. Cheese is usually a state of mind from what I've seen (doesn't mean it doesn't exist though). If you want to shut your friend up about guard being OP try using a non-competitive (maybe even fluff oriented) lists. There arent too many excuses for that if you still beat him. All I have to say is when I'd beat people with 2nd edition dark eldar they'd still find a way to get mad at them for having "this one rule".

Yeah, I'm planning on trying power blobs against him next time just to show him I can play a different list. But then he might just say the entire codex is op.

timetowaste85 wrote:

seejay wrote:I am convinced they are. Their bloody tanks, that's what it is, they roll around the battlefield at will blowing everything to kingdom come and there's nothing I have that even touches them. Their troops are spectacularly poor but that doesn't come close to balancing it.

Oh, and barrages. Ordinance falling arbitarily from the sky seems a tad unfair.

Play CSM and use outflanking Chosen with Meltaguns in a rhino, Raptors with Meltaguns and Obliterator spam. Trust me, IG players will HATE you and you can eat them alive. I had one friend insist on using Imperial Armor lists, all tanks, no infantry at all and I blew him to pieces with CSM with ease. 5 Meltaguns to side armor eat units of Leman Russes

Might help if we/I know what army you play to offer suggestions, I'm just offering something that I know will eat IG alive. Bright/Dark lance spam for Eldar will eat most mech alive too, as well as DSing assault squads with melta/combi-meltas. That should give you plenty of armies to choose from that will murder IG.

Outflanking units do make IG cry, but with the Astropath (or which ever adviser messes withs reserve) they can easily screw over flanking units.

I collect tau and IG and I'm with your friend on this one, if are more adjustable but tau are very dependable,
They depend on being mobile, they are NOT static shooters like IG, tau excell at range, beyond 30" they outrange antithetical standard issue gun in the game!

Vendetta's are definitely undercosted (at least, as long as you aren't taking them in squadrons of 3). Vets by themselves aren't really so bad. Footslogging they are awful. In Valyries/Vendettas they are suicide units. It's only when married with the Chimera that they become *really* good. The chimera likewise is primarily only decent with command squads and veterans, while being very "meh" on everything else.

IG aren't unbeatable by any means. I know, I play IG and I've lost plenty of times, and I've played against IG and beat them plenty of times.


To be fair however, Tau are an army that's designed very closely with the 3E/4E LoS, Skimmer, and Vehicle rules, all of which got majorly changed with 5E, and Tau haven't gotten updated yet.

That said, in 4E, the positions were reversed, Tau armies practically didn't have to lift a finger to defeat Imperial Guard armies, Having to play against Tau was almost an auto-loss for IG players.

seejay wrote:
Oh, and barrages. Ordinance falling arbitarily from the sky seems a tad unfair.

IG have always had this. Nobody seemed to care in previous editions, they didn't really get any better.

I do think that IG could be classified as OP in some ways. I know when i go to FLGS and I see others playing, they always say how they sometimes wonder if they should even unpack their models when they have to play IG, cause one or two turns of shooting and they have to take half off the board. Who knows, things always change in GW, so im sure eventually things will be changed.

Tau are at a disadvantage right now because of their codex and like everyone says, IG are great with the new codex. I don't think the Vendetta's undercosted due to its size and it is easy for every weapon to get LOS to it.

As an IG player, I'm scared of Chaos space marine termies(then again I was playing against a friend who was cheating and he somehow managed to field enough troops and vehicles to outnumber my IG)

Also the majority of battle reports I read I usually see IG lose a lot (esp to Space Wolves)

I think you're forgetting most guard units are bs3, s3, t3, ld7 5+ with quite possibly the worst rifle in the game - I ALWAYS use large blobs and spam frfsrf... with 100+ shots I once killed 1 SM. 1. out of 2 on the table, I managed to kill 1. Who then went on to assault, and run my unit off the table. my own fault for not having a commissar or PW, but it does prove my point.

Yes, LR are pretty strong... but from the rear they can (you gotta be lucky though) be disabled by heavy bolters... Hell, you can charge the rear of a LRBT with a mob of boyz (indeed anything s4 or above) and there's a fair chance you'll get at least 1 glance... even a penetrating or two if they have furious charge - and thats without grenades. Everyone gets so concerned about its massive wall of av14 steel upfront they forget that the armour out back makes Rhino's look sturdy.

everyone looks at them and see's the strengths of a unit. You have to be able to look at a unit and see its weaknesses so you can exploit them, and stop your enemy from exploiting yours. take the vendetta - ooh! its got 3 TL lascannons! its a bs3 flyer. It has to stand still to be able to shoot all three, they're forward facing so if you want to zoom around and hit the rear of your enemies, you're exposing your own - which, btw, is made of paper mache - and it's only av12, and immobilised is destroyed if it moved.

If you have the money for that tanks/artillery/aircraft then yes I would say it is.

timetowaste85 wrote:

seejay wrote:I am convinced they are. Their bloody tanks, that's what it is, they roll around the battlefield at will blowing everything to kingdom come and there's nothing I have that even touches them. Their troops are spectacularly poor but that doesn't come close to balancing it.

Oh, and barrages. Ordinance falling arbitarily from the sky seems a tad unfair.

Play CSM and use outflanking Chosen with Meltaguns in a rhino, Raptors with Meltaguns and Obliterator spam. Trust me, IG players will HATE you and you can eat them alive. I had one friend insist on using Imperial Armor lists, all tanks, no infantry at all and I blew him to pieces with CSM with ease. 5 Meltaguns to side armor eat units of Leman Russes

Might help if we/I know what army you play to offer suggestions, I'm just offering something that I know will eat IG alive. Bright/Dark lance spam for Eldar will eat most mech alive too, as well as DSing assault squads with melta/combi-meltas. That should give you plenty of armies to choose from that will murder IG.

Meh.

IG can do pretty much everything Chaos can do at a greatly reduced cost.

For troops, the cheapest Meltagun spam CSM allows is Plague Marines, and min-maxed squads in Rhinos come in at 170 pts for 2 melta guns. Vets in a Chimera cost 155, come with 3 meltaguns, and a better transport.

For heavy support, Hydras and Russ Variants > Oblits. You want to fire lascannons? OK, here's a Vendetta that comes with 3 of them, twin linked, and costs less than 2 oblits. Want Plasma Cannons? Take an Executioner and you get 5 of them that won't get hot. Maxing out Oblits costs you 675 points. 3 Vendettas is 390 and gives you just as many lascannons, twin linked. With the points left over, buy an Executioner. More firepower, more dakka, etc. It's just better.


I play both CSM and Guard, and the IG dex allows for a greater number of vastly more competitive builds. Seriously. CSM has literally ONE competitive build: Oblit spam, min-maxed PM squads, and lash sorcerors. Guard can do gunline, mech vets, leafblower, aircav, so on and so forth.


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papathrax wrote:I think you're forgetting most guard units are bs3, s3, t3, ld7 5+ with quite possibly the worst rifle in the game - I ALWAYS use large blobs and spam frfsrf... with 100+ shots I once killed 1 SM. 1. out of 2 on the table, I managed to kill 1. Who then went on to assault, and run my unit off the table. my own fault for not having a commissar or PW, but it does prove my point.

Yes, LR are pretty strong... but from the rear they can (you gotta be lucky though) be disabled by heavy bolters... Hell, you can charge the rear of a LRBT with a mob of boyz (indeed anything s4 or above) and there's a fair chance you'll get at least 1 glance... even a penetrating or two if they have furious charge - and thats without grenades. Everyone gets so concerned about its massive wall of av14 steel upfront they forget that the armour out back makes Rhino's look sturdy.

everyone looks at them and see's the strengths of a unit. You have to be able to look at a unit and see its weaknesses so you can exploit them, and stop your enemy from exploiting yours. take the vendetta - ooh! its got 3 TL lascannons! its a bs3 flyer. It has to stand still to be able to shoot all three, they're forward facing so if you want to zoom around and hit the rear of your enemies, you're exposing your own - which, btw, is made of paper mache - and it's only av12, and immobilised is destroyed if it moved.

Faux weaknesses IMO.

Mech Vets don't really have much that's BS3 and is hurt by it. Ordnance "hits" 1/3 of the time regardless of BS and often 1" of scatter isn't fatal, and Vets, which are arguably the more competitive choice, are BS4. Vendettas' lascannons are twin-linked (and TL-BS3 > BS4).

Those Vendettas that are "only" AV12 can also scout move and outflank, take a pair of heavy bolters for a meager 10 points, comes with extra armor, AND transports models...and you need to read the rules for Skimmers because immobilized does NOT equal destroyed for skimmers, and it does NOT need to stay still to fire all 3 lascannons. It's a "fast" vehicle.

I think he meant if you fly flat-out. Then if you score an immobilized result it is destroyed.

Yeah, thats what I meant. I apologise for the misunderstanding.

Still, they're not as scary as everyone wants to believe.

My hatred for guard knows no bounds.

Vehicle squadrons? As if they didn't have enough firepower.

Massive amounts of infantry with hidden power weapons/fists, in a shooting army? Say it isn't so!

More templates than a pizza shop? And the ability to force me to re-roll successful cover saves? FFFFFFFF

Orders... I don't really know what needs to be said.

A single transport unit that puts eldar speed to shame? Really?

The codex can do most everything, and better than most armies. It shoots better than anything else and has the ability to not suck that hard in melee, or actually do well... I'm looking at your priests.

Guard do crazy well in the current game due to cover saves imo. That and their ability to overload the saves of other armies so they die before they reach melee, something my tau TRY to do, but fail.

It's that army that if you have the money, you own everything barring terrible tactics and bad rolls. On average, you own face.

IG is one of the only armies that i've played that in the hands of a DECENT list and a decent player (not even a good player) that has almost no weakness

Everything that can go wrong can be fixed fairly easy where as most other armies have flat out bad match ups.. even space wolves (Missile spam can get messed up by dark eldar if they go first for example)

Ilike the way that people allways vote the top 3 armies and they are allways imperial armiea sw ig ba. cheers gw!

There's a reason for that..

Kirasu wrote:IG is one of the only armies that i've played that in the hands of a DECENT list and a decent player (not even a good player) that has almost no weakness

Besides close combat?

Everything that can go wrong can be fixed fairly easy where as most other armies have flat out bad match ups.. even space wolves (Missile spam can get messed up by dark eldar if they go first for example)

How so just out of curiosity? I won't deny that IG are strong, but IG can definitely get screwed out the gate like any other army.

juraigamer wrote:

Vehicle squadrons? As if they didn't have enough firepower.

Have you read the 5E vehicle squadron rules? They're awful. There's a reason you don't see vehicle squadrons in competitive armies, at least not of anything bigger than Hydras or Griffons. 5E squadron rules are probably the most punitive and restrictive unit rules in the game.

It's also not like Eldar, Space Marines, Tau, Orks and Witch Hunters don't have access to units of vehicle squadrons either.

Massive amounts of infantry with hidden power weapons/fists, in a shooting army? Say it isn't so!

WS3 T3 S3 I3 5+sv powerweapons...not that scary, and cost twice as much as they did in the last codex. Even the PFists are only S6. Did nobody notice these in every IG army list before this? They're only halfway decent in Blob platoons, and if they are kitted for that it means they either aren't kitted for shooting or have a lot of points invested in stuff that quite often will simply be wasted.

More templates than a pizza shop? And the ability to force me to re-roll successful cover saves? FFFFFFFF

Again, did you not notice in every previous edition the templates that IG are capable of putting out? Nothing new. The only templates that are going to be able to force you to reroll cover saves (and only if an order is issued to them) are Mortars, Frag Missiles, Frag Grenades, and possibly an Officer of the Fleet. The first three are S3/4 AP6, so if you've got a 4+ or better armor it won't make a difference, and if you've got a 5+ you can take that instead of having to reroll the cover save, and the last can't hit the broad side of a planet.

Vehicles can't be issued orders. You do know this right?

Orders... I don't really know what needs to be said.

It's the IG's army wide special rule, like SM's Combat Tactics/ATSKNF or BA's Descent of Angels/ATSKNF/RedThirst, etc. and is far more restricted than other armies army-wide special rules.

A single transport unit that puts eldar speed to shame? Really?

A Valkyrie puts Eldar speed to shame? Um, how so? It's a Fast Skimmer, but it's not *faster* than anything Eldar have, it's on *par* with any other Fast Skimmer (not just Eldar), but certainly not faster, especially not moreso than something with Star Engines. They also aren't anywhere near as survivable without Energy/Holo fields.

The codex can do most everything, and better than most armies. It shoots better than anything else and has the ability to not suck that hard in melee, or actually do well... I'm looking at your priests.

Priests are a joke. It's an IC that'll get killed before it gets a chance to do anything, costs a ton of points, and really is only useful in one unit (blob platoons) and only does anything if the Guardsmen are charging (meaning they aren't doing what they are best at, which is shooting).

They're just an army with some really good options that people often rely heavily on, like Vendettas and mechvets. They also play to the metagame's strengths, since they can take so much melta in so many vehilcles. They're beatable as long as you have mobility and cover, which any good army and any good battlefield should have.

Yeah, Necrons have mobility down 6'' of unhideable slow building.. That said it's immune to melta

The rest of the good stuff is pretty mobile


Orks don'r need meltaspam to kill them, as their vehicles are made from squig beer kegs and explode for kicks anyway

My main armies don't fear Mechvets near as much as pieplate spam from hell..

The valk/vendetta's gruesomely cheap las-loadout i have issues with, but they're not too hard to knock down, if the opponent has actually left you anything to knock tyhem down with after the shells and lascannons pause...

Getting first turn vs Guard really tips the odds, as they're stacked agaisnt you if they go first and take the usual list...

Yes they are


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Short answer...

Feeder_of_life wrote:Yes they are


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Short answer...

Thanks for your insight, I look forward to the book on tape version.

4 vendettas which i played against id say yes but infantry armies not so much.

its just since they have the most mech options and 5th favors mech if 6th changes that expect IG to sink down the ratings

IG is the reason I don't like going to tournaments. It always feels like an autolose with either my mech BA lists or my Hybrid Tau lists. The last tournament I went to featured a new player to game who played an internet IG list. I was basically tabled by turn 4 and I've been playing for two years. So, IMO, they are OP.

So.. you're beaten by a particular army and they're automatically overpowered? You can't think on your feet and that's GW's fault for writing "broken" rules?

I'm not saying that the defenders of mankind don't have some ridiculously strong units that are crazy cheap (vendetta... yes. 25 points more than 3 lascannon teams is a little crazy)... but crying about it isn't going to change that. Use your brain and think of a solution.

papathrax wrote:So.. you're beaten by a particular army and they're automatically overpowered? You can't think on your feet and that's GW's fault for writing "broken" rules?

I'm not saying that the defenders of mankind don't have some ridiculously strong units that are crazy cheap (vendetta... yes. 25 points more than 3 lascannon teams is a little crazy)... but crying about it isn't going to change that. Use your brain and think of a solution.

lol im not complaining it was was a fun game (i gave him a run for his money with eldar )just after the 6th game or so a with 4 vendettas with melta vets etc and WH allies at 1500 points it takes the fun out.

i would call them overpowered in certain lists but would still be happy to play them in a tournament but less so in friendly games repeatedly.

lots of cheap guns
TRUE LINE OF SIGHT
enough said

juraigamer wrote:The codex can do most everything, and better than most armies. It shoots better than anything else and has the ability to not suck that hard in melee, or actually do well... I'm looking at your priests.

They can't assault better than anyone. Even a giant power blob isn't very good. It's cheapish for what you get, but not very good. Kroot would be able to out assault a power blob.

It's not OP, it's very strong. But almost all of the 5th ed books are strong. So far I think GW has done a reasonable job of making all the 5th ed books competative with one another. But it's already been said, Tau were built for a different time and most of what made them good no longer exists. Tau v Guard is not a good comparrison.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

juraigamer wrote:The codex can do most everything, and better than most armies. It shoots better than anything else and has the ability to not suck that hard in melee, or actually do well... I'm looking at your priests.

They can't assault better than anyone. Even a giant power blob isn't very good. It's cheapish for what you get, but not very good. Kroot would be able to out assault a power blob.

It's not OP, it's very strong. But almost all of the 5th ed books are strong. So far I think GW has done a reasonable job of making all the 5th ed books competative with one another. But it's already been said, Tau were built for a different time and most of what made them good no longer exists. Tau v Guard is not a good comparrison.

i agree but i think once we hit everyone at 5th it will be generally balanced (nids lacking a little bit) then 6th will arrive and a new SM codex will shake the whole balance around again until we have to redo all the codices for balance xD

Vendetta's are a little OP. Wanna know why?

Because they absolutely rake in the dough for GW. Everyone wants one. Have you seen how much they cost?!...




Telling me the IG are invincible though just sounds a bit daft; as an IG player myself, I can assure you that they're in no way invincible. Aside from the obvious threats of outflankers, deep strikes, drop pods, etc (which can do a tremendous amount of damage to any infantry-heavy or mechanised army), the rules of 5th ed. mean that units are constantly getting the way of each other, enemies get an abundance of cover saves, and those squadrons you're complaining about do jack sh*t (the powerful ones anyway).
Guard squads may have access to plenty of special and heavy weapons, but guess what? Three plasma guns cost 5 points less than a chimera. Three LC HW Teams cost more than twice what a Chimera costs. In order to buy two LC HW Teams, you'd need to fork out 60pts more than a standard-pattern Leman Russ. Don't forget either that nearly all of the models behind these weapons are BS 3, T 3, and Ld 7.

IMHO, it's not OP, just takes careful planning but they are not invincible as the others have pointed out. For example, I have always had a hard time against drop pod armies or heavy assault armies, and soon GK is coming to give me more pain! ARghhhh

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

juraigamer wrote:The codex can do most everything, and better than most armies. It shoots better than anything else and has the ability to not suck that hard in melee, or actually do well... I'm looking at your priests.

They can't assault better than anyone. Even a giant power blob isn't very good. It's cheapish for what you get, but not very good. Kroot would be able to out assault a power blob.

Actually, it's surprising what can take out a power blob. Power blobs are DEAD killy against certain things that get in close combat, but there are plenty of things that they can't handle. The reason I've been successful with power blobs isn't because individual power blobs are awesome, it's because I run 4 power blobs.

Anyways, I wouldn't say that guard are overpowered. What I WOULD say is that the guard codex is a VERY solid codex that gives players lots of tools to beat up on riffraff. An army that is high on up-front killing power, and low on durability REALLY punishes players for being indecisive or taking bloated, or inefficient units.

Guard makes it easier than many other codecies to whomp on noobs, but it doesn't make it easier to whomp on good players.

Trust me, the weaknesses in guard armies are NOT faux weaknesses. If you can't exploit them, that's not the guard player's fault.

crazyK wrote:IG is the reason I don't like going to tournaments. It always feels like an autolose with either my mech BA lists or my Hybrid Tau lists. The last tournament I went to featured a new player to game who played an internet IG list. I was basically tabled by turn 4 and I've been playing for two years. So, IMO, they are OP.

I'm sorry, but if you're playing mech BA, nobody is going to feels sorry if you feel you're auto-losing to IG. Mech BA is very strong and is one of the few armies in the game that can match IG in terms of tanks (rather ironic for a close assault army known for jump packs) and is much more mobile in general.

Tau are where IG were 4 years ago (how often did *anyone* lose to IG back then?), and have a hard time with a lot of armies, not just IG, as they were built *very* close to the 4E Skimmer, Vehicle and LoS rules, all of which underwent significant changes with 5E.

I don't have any problems with IG i think they are a great 5th edition army. I just have a little bit hard to understand... Why they get Marbo at what is it? 65pt? I mean.. That guy is Darth Vader, The Holy Emperor himself, Bruce Lee, John Rambo all rolled into one man! The rest i really don't give a damn about but that guy. He is way OP for his pt!

Meh, I stopped using Marbo because I couldnt' justify his cost. He's one of those units that looks good on paper, and is VERY good against a certain class of targets, but isn't very good against much else, and just throws a free KP at your opponents.

I think that's something that people see with guard that causes them to scream cheeze. Guard units are very cheap, and are very good at what they're good at. What people forget is that they're fragile, and they tend to be horrible against things they're not designed to destroy.

I mean, you can look at a colossus and say "you wound my devestators on 2's and ignore both armor and cover? For HOW few points? CHEEZEXORS!" The problem is that you're looking at only the absolute best case scenario of a weapon against the target it was designed to be good against.

If you only look at guard units in their best case scenarios, of course they're going to look overpowered, because the guard are best in their best cases than most other armies. What this overlooks, of course, is that they're worse in non-best-cases than other armies.

I mean, that hydra may be death incarnate against AV10 skimmers, but what happens when you don't bring any? Hydras ain't no thing against power armor, even for 75 points apiece...

I'm sorry, but if you're playing mech BA, nobody is going to feels sorry if you feel you're auto-losing to IG. Mech BA is very strong and is one of the few armies in the game that can match IG in terms of tanks (rather ironic for a close assault army known for jump packs) and is much more mobile in general.

Sorry if I came across as whining. I know IG is beatable, I read about in other people's Batreps

I was losing bad in the last tournament when Straken punched out my Furioso Dread w/ Blood Talons and it made me physically ill. I guess I provided that kid with a good tournament memory though....

Warboss ZanZag wrote:I don't have any problems with IG i think they are a great 5th edition army. I just have a little bit hard to understand... Why they get Marbo at what is it? 65pt? I mean.. That guy is Darth Vader, The Holy Emperor himself, Bruce Lee, John Rambo all rolled into one man! The rest i really don't give a damn about but that guy. He is way OP for his pt!

T3 and 2 wounds with a 5+ save would like to argue with you. I love using him, but he's very, very squishy. I think it balances his points cost.

crazyK wrote:

Sorry if I came across as whining. I know IG is beatable, I read about in other people's Batreps

I was losing bad in the last tournament when Straken punched out my Furioso Dread w/ Blood Talons and it made me physically ill. I guess I provided that kid with a good tournament memory though....

Considering the Furioso is likely to put an average of 6-7 wounds on such an IG command squad it charges, and that yes, while Straken can kill a Furioso, it'll typically happen once in every 14 rounds of close combat, wheras the Furioso will wipe straken and his squad typically in two, all it means is some good luck on the IG players part with an upgrade character that tripled the base cost of the unit. The Furioso probably cost less than that Straken command squad did.

Not something one should feel bad about really.

Seeing as Tau is my main army it is hard not to look at this from a Tau perspective. It costs upwards of around 170 points for 1 Railgun on a front armor 13 vehicle, while Vendettas are some 150 for 3 twin-linked Lascannons on front armor 12. Perhaps it is just that Tau are desperately in need of a new codex but what other army gets that much punch for that cheap. Yeah it is only BS3 but the twin-linked makes that almost entirely not an issue.

Yes Chimeras don't due much themselves, but they don't stop the people inside from firing out, have front armor 12, unlike almost any other transport in the game, while only costing 55 points. All of their vehicles are very cheap (point-wise) and vehicles, even armor 10 ones, are harder to destroy then people like to admit. Even if you can actually hit the vehicle, you have a 4 out of 6 chance of that shot still keeping everyone inside safe.

Being another Tau player, with a budding space marine army, I can say that the only part of IG that I have a problem with is Marbo. My friend's Marbo (that he always uses on me) has destroyed probably 5 times of it's worth in points on average, and even as high as 10 times it's points this one time.

He pops in and tosses a demo charge, gets 2 squads of crisis suits, a railhead, a devilfish, and most of a FW squad. Yeah, most of my 1500 point army that game. It was hairy, sweaty, Khornate donkey t3sticles. I can angry about it more, but I will stay on topic.

The fact that the Vendettas are cheap is offset by the fact that my seeker missles almost auto-destroy (markerlights FTW!) Tanks and other things I can seeker or broadside well enough don't pose much of a problem.

My problem has always been horde armies. I keep telling myself after tourneys that I will get a squad of TLF crisis suits just for those, but then I remember that it is hard to jump-shoot-jump while in CC. I just don't know. I have also had the most rotten luck using submunitions on orky boys and guardmen mobs. Sigh.....

I hope that new codex comes out soon, or 6th, or whatever. My Tau chances in this environment are pretty slim. I can only win now with good deployment and a little help from Lady Luck. If she says no, then it's a guaranteed loss.

OmegaStriker wrote:He pops in and tosses a demo charge, gets 2 squads of crisis suits, a railhead, a devilfish, and most of a FW squad. Yeah, most of my 1500 point army that game.

He got all that under a single large blast template?

Marbo's not your problem dude...

Yeah, I deployed all my valuable stuff next to each other behind my firewarriors, so six crisis suits, drones, the back of a railhead and the back of a devilfish, and the troops in the fish that died trying to get out. It sucked a Khornate donkey's you-know-what's. Needless to say, I never deploy that close together again, and I always ask to see their codex and army list, so I know what I need to avoid.

just because someone runs a powerplay list doesn't mean auto win learn some strategy please

The vehicle squadren rules do a few things well for guard.

The make them immune to the first two damage results and allow tanks to shoot through other tanks. No LOS hindrance. This means with proper placement, they are both shielding other units and keeping themselves alive.

The fact that you can destroy something with an immobilized result doesn't matter much at that point, a decent player with an obscurement save and is pointing that front armor of 14 at your guns doesn't care. At. All.

IG is just as good as any of the other 5th edition Codexes, with the exception of Tyranids, which are meh.

If you are playing any of the older armies then you should expect to have a very difficult time, since they were designed with different rules in mind, or were sometimes just badly put together books.

If the new Tau book comes out and still has as much of a hard time against IG than i think people have a right to complain, but before then, they just need to realize that the older books are not as good and learn to be ok with it.

If you want to be able to play against IG competitively, you probably need to be playing SM, SW, BA, DE or GK. Obviously the older books with the right players and the right armies can still win against IG, but i would argue that they do so on a less then level playing field.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

OmegaStriker wrote:Yeah, I deployed all my valuable stuff next to each other behind my firewarriors, so six crisis suits, drones, the back of a railhead and the back of a devilfish, and the troops in the fish that died trying to get out. It sucked a Khornate donkey's you-know-what's. Needless to say, I never deploy that close together again, and I always ask to see their codex and army list, so I know what I need to avoid.

I think you should be thanking Marbo for teaching you such a valuable lesson...you should have been doing all of those things anyway.

jcd386 wrote:
If you want to be able to play against IG competitively, you probably need to be playing SM, SW, BA, DE or GK.

That is the fundamental problem. Players shouldn't have to buy the newest army just to level the playing field, codex's should stay within a certain constraint of balance. However, GW is a business, and in order to make money they must make things for us to buy. The stronger the item, the more plausible a player will buy it. When was the last time you heard of a guard player buying tanks after all? Not like any of them have roughriders, for example.

That said, while IG are crazy good for a shooting army, the only reason I have trouble with them is when my tau are trying to get rid of a crap ton of infantry that keep going to ground in cover. Especially during an objective game. I can deal with the tanks, I can deal with the transports, the fliers and all their other stuff, but the infantry... tau just can't do much about MSU guard in MEQ cover. That's my main beef.

juraigamer wrote:The vehicle squadren rules do a few things well for guard.

The make them immune to the first two damage results and allow tanks to shoot through other tanks. No LOS hindrance. This means with proper placement, they are both shielding other units and keeping themselves alive.

You might want to go ahead and read the rules for tank squadrons again.

0% of the guard players I've ever known would choose putting two tanks into a squadron when they have the option to keep them separate.

Allow me to be the first to state when playing against a player who constantly states rules that happen to work out in his favor, re-check entire rulebook regarding his army.

I wasn't aware of that. Still the idea that a vehicle can see through another vehicle in the same squad is a bonus, but yes I see why when possible people split them up.

After sucking the last four editions they are due. But I have some IG so I am kind of biased. I remember getting my butt handed to me enough times when I played in 3rd with my IG that I really don't feel bad.

As a fair assesment they aren't OP, they are undercosted. I think there is a difference. I would say that some of the other top tier armies are a bit OP and need to be toned down, IG just need thier points upped about 15-20%.

They're undercosted mainly because they're so fragile. T3 with a 5+ armor save means anything S6 and above kills you outright, and every other races smash through their puny armor with impunity. Even the dreaded Chimera, Valkyrie and Leman Russ? Chimeras are 12/10/10....most AT weapons have no trouble with that armor. Valks are 12/12/10, so anything that can take down a Chimera can take down a Valk. Leman Russes may seem tough, but they're no harder to take down than a Land Raider at range, but much easier to kill in close combat.

Guard are easy enough to beat if you play right. Even mech vet and air cav Guard have their weaknesses. Veterans are no tougher than regular Guardsmen, but more expensive and without the benefit of numbers. You can bea Guard easily enough...you just have to fight the Guard you're facing. If you play rihgt, you can trounce Guard. Trust me, as a Guard player with a ridiculous number of losses to his name I know Guard are far from invincible.

Fragile means nothing in the 5th ed cover save rich environment however.

juraigamer wrote:Fragile means nothing in the 5th ed cover save rich environment however.

Nothing? Not hardly. The thing is, that door swings both ways; I find the biggest problem with my Guard is that they can't kill stuff fast enough to keep from getting drawn into close combat, because of those very same cover rules. And once IG are in close combat, the fragility of the IG becomes a huge liability.

juraigamer wrote:Fragile means nothing in the 5th ed cover save rich environment however.

False, it still means a lot, even with cover. Not to mention that ignores or weakens cover gets much more useful. Even with a 4+ coversave, your average Guardsman is still relatively fragile, and it is hard to gain cover with Leman Russes and Chimeras without sacrificing their ability to fire.

juraigamer wrote:Fragile means nothing in the 5th ed cover save rich environment however.

What?

Firstly,

Ruckdog wrote: The thing is, that door swings both ways.

Secondly, have you never heard of a meltagun? A krak grenade? Outflanking? Deepstriking?

There are SO many ways to get in close, at which point you wreck guard vehicles dead. Guard is great if you're being foolish enough to try and dig things out of cover with static autocannons (to be fair, though, guard were ALWAYS good at long-range slug fests), but they're not so good if you actually play a 5th ed game with a 5th ed list.

good example of gaurd not being over powered, i got assulted by archion, my blob died, in a few turns, even after he lost his +2 invun save he wouldnt die agaisnt the squad, in the end it required a tank with a direct shot to kill him, this is after killing 60+ gaurd

after firing everything, 4 turns in, i managed to kill a squad of kabalites... thats all, nothing else died apart from me when it came to that squad (Even WITH orders)

juraigamer wrote:Fragile means nothing in the 5th ed cover save rich environment however.

It certainly does mean something.

Last game I played was against Sister of Battle, and between 3+/2+ sv and being able to make them invulnerable, they didn't care all that much for cover.

However, Bolter/CC wounding on 3+ made a huge impact, as in any exchange of fire or CC, he had to make so many more saves than I did.

My TFC (my list is fluffy and not very competitive) even killed a Cannoness because I forced wound on every unit in his squad (They were clumped from a destroyed Rhino) and with T3, 1 failled saved meant ID.

IG are looking at a 4+ cover save at beat, they would have even worse casualty.

T3 is a big deal. Ask the DE.

juraigamer wrote:Fragile means nothing in the 5th ed cover save rich environment however.

There's this part of the game called "The assault phase" I think you need to hear about.

Tell him he needs more broad side battle suits and or Hammer heads.

Anyway, Yes, Along side of the current new marine chapters like SW,BA,GK. The I.G are pretty powerful. I only played them twice but got my ars handed to me.
Well...first time I played I did well. It was a minor loss actually and I was playing orks. It was almost a Major victory but I snuck in with Snikrot and Ghazzy and went right to his back lines. Plus I made a lot of mistakes lol.

Second time though...hoo..did not realize Leman russ had the armor it did and my plasma guns just could not get through it...even living lightning failed me to do anything against it. His valks had like three or four las cannons on them and his two troop choices easily had somewhere around like 3+ special weapons in them that I could not armor save against.

Plus the fact that I.G can have a single Unit with models reaching over 100+ for the single unit lol!

Personally I think that they are balanced, I have never had a horrible problem with beating them.

Overpowered is a relative term. However, they are relatively overpowered when you compare them to older armies. Tau simply aren't competitive, it is an uphill battle the majority of the time.

Vasarto wrote:Plus the fact that I.G can have a single Unit with models reaching over 100+ for the single unit lol!

Which unit is that?

Last I checked, the largest single unit a guard player could field was 55 models.

I'm pretty sure he means FoC slot. That said, IG have had that going wayyyy back to 2nd Edition.

Ailaros wrote:

Vasarto wrote:Plus the fact that I.G can have a single Unit with models reaching over 100+ for the single unit lol!

Which unit is that?

Last I checked, the largest single unit a guard player could field was 55 models.

Right, 5 guard squads with ten men in them and one commissar each. But for one FoC slot, they can have that plus fifty conscripts plus several special weapons and heavy weapons squads plus the five man command squad.

Melissia wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

Vasarto wrote:Plus the fact that I.G can have a single Unit with models reaching over 100+ for the single unit lol!

Which unit is that?

Last I checked, the largest single unit a guard player could field was 55 models.

Right, 5 guard squads with ten men in them and one commissar each. But for one FoC slot, they can have that plus fifty conscripts plus several special weapons and heavy weapons squads plus the five man command squad.

If I ever play guard that is the list I want to run lol.

ALSO

You forgot that each of those squads can take a Transport lol.

Vasarto wrote:
If I ever play guard that is the list I want to run lol.

ALSO

You forgot that each of those squads can take a Transport lol.

Stop using lol as punctuation, it's really annoying. Chatspeak isn't welcome here either.

Also, what people fail to realize is that yes, that's 55 bodies on the field, but you're probably paying 300 points or more after upgrades. Putting them all in Chimeras is hilariously expensive, points and money wise, and isn't a terribly good strategy. Putting vets in a Chimera is a different story, but you can't take 50 in one FOC slot. Also, the best thing about killpoints is that it gives some deterrent to the really meched-out lists that folks run.

Vasarto wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

Vasarto wrote:Plus the fact that I.G can have a single Unit with models reaching over 100+ for the single unit lol!

Which unit is that?

Last I checked, the largest single unit a guard player could field was 55 models.

Right, 5 guard squads with ten men in them and one commissar each. But for one FoC slot, they can have that plus fifty conscripts plus several special weapons and heavy weapons squads plus the five man command squad.

If I ever play guard that is the list I want to run lol.

ALSO

You forgot that each of those squads can take a Transport lol.

Well only the PCS and IS can actually take Transports. SWS, HWT, and Conscripts are stuck with hoofing it for some reason, which I can kind of understand with the latter 2, but not so much the former. That said, I don't know why you would want to take 10 seperate squads with 10 separate Commissars. Usually you want to blob up and only take 1, maybe 2 commies, for the extra power weapon.

I'm not stating tanks are the problem, I'm stating as a shooting army I can't dislodge guard infantry. Tanks die like everything else.

As an assault army, guard are easy enough to deal with provided you minimize the shots you're taking.

Vasarto wrote:
If I ever play guard that is the list I want to run lol.

ALSO

You forgot that each of those squads can take a Transport lol.

Indeed they can, but unless you're going for a themed mechanized infantry army, putting PIS in Chimeras is not a competitive idea. They're too expensive, and don't have enough punch to be worth their while. WHat makes mech vets so powerful is that they have 3 special weapons, and BS4, all things that regular Guardsmen lack. Regular Guardsmen are best used in large blobs to hold objectives and lay down massed heavy weapons fire, or forming powerblobs to go forward and kick face.

The ability to take tranports for your platoon INfantry is definitely not one of the IGs strongest features.

You look at a baneblade and answer that question for yourself.

A few sisters squads with meltaguns and that baneblade can go down pretty fast...

I feel that when you take the current guard dex and stake it up next to the other current 5thed books. Everyone is on the same playing field. However! When you take it and set it next to older books yes it is very OP. There really isnt alot the older books can do other then hope to get lucky.

They can adapt their tactics and builds a bit, but then again, older codices don't have as much flexibility in their lists to begin with.

Melissia wrote:Right, 5 guard squads with ten men in them and one commissar each. But for one FoC slot, they can have that plus fifty conscripts plus several special weapons and heavy weapons squads plus the five man command squad.

Sure, but the original complaint was that guard units are impossible to kill because they have squads with 100+ models in them. If you take a fully loaded platoon, you're basically shooting KP at your opponent with a fire hose without any real objective-camping staying power outside of the blob.

juraigamer wrote:Fragile means nothing in the 5th ed cover save rich environment however.

Maybe not nothing but it really helps low sv armies.
It works both ways but not the same length. it definitely helps low cost high number units more.

ChrisWWII wrote:They're undercosted mainly because they're so fragile. T3 with a 5+ armor save means anything S6 and above kills you outright, and every other races smash through their puny armor with impunity. Even the dreaded Chimera, Valkyrie and Leman Russ? Chimeras are 12/10/10....most AT weapons have no trouble with that armor. Valks are 12/12/10, so anything that can take down a Chimera can take down a Valk. Leman Russes may seem tough, but they're no harder to take down than a Land Raider at range, but much easier to kill in close combat.

I'm sorry but if you want to use Leman Russ as an example of s fragile unit you can't be taken seriously. 12/12/10 is not something you can't kill. But couple that with a fact that it is cheaper and packs more firepower than most similar vehicles. Leman russ is MUCH cheaper and a bit more versatile than Raider - as a gun platform. Besides EVERY vehicle (-Mono and Land Raider maybe) is easy to kill in CC. It's not a weak point of Leman Russ - it's a weak point of almost every vehicle out there.
3 LR in a SM makes forces a whole army based on them. 3 LR in IG army is just an addition to it.

Ailaros wrote:I think that's something that people see with guard that causes them to scream cheeze. Guard units are very cheap, and are very good at what they're good at. What people forget is that they're fragile, and they tend to be horrible against things they're not designed to destroy.

I mean, you can look at a colossus and say "you wound my devestators on 2's and ignore both armor and cover? For HOW few points? CHEEZEXORS!" The problem is that you're looking at only the absolute best case scenario of a weapon against the target it was designed to be good against.

If you only look at guard units in their best case scenarios, of course they're going to look overpowered, because the guard are best in their best cases than most other armies. What this overlooks, of course, is that they're worse in non-best-cases than other armies.

I mean, that hydra may be death incarnate against AV10 skimmers, but what happens when you don't bring any? Hydras ain't no thing against power armor, even for 75 points apiece...

Hydra is also good against AV11 transporters. Bread and butter unit of all SM-like armies. How about Leman Russ. It's great against numerous thing. As is Vendetta and veteran/Chimera and pie plate of doom artillery and so on. Ordnance big blasts are awesome against vehicles AND hordes. Cheap units with BS4, meltas and ability to get 3 shots is also very versatile.
Don't try to make IG look like a fluff Eldar because it's not true. I would say versatility is one of IG strengths .


After all that, I want to say that IG (in my opinion) is not OP. But it may feel like it, or it is close. I know this may be just a feeling, but it is not taken out of thin air. Older codeci(??) are having an enormous problems with IG. You may say that it's not fair to try to compare 5 with 4 ed, but you are wrong. It's not unfair. There is simply no other way. 4ed and 5ed must be comparable because they are fighting one another. What is not fair - that one codex is powerful 90% of edition time and the other is powerful 10%.

The Leman Russ is also exponentially weaker than the Land Raider to assaults and side/rear shots, as well as not being able to transport infantry. While the Land Raider is ridiculously durable and is able to deliver a payload of infantry up to terminators.

The Land Raider has plenty of offensive capability with its twin twin-linked lascannons, or its power armor ignoring, cover save ignoring templates, and so on for its various variants.

Agreed.
I just wanted to point out that comparing LR to LR is not a good one. Land Raider is better, but it's also much pricier. Comparing Land Raider to almost any vehicle shows all the weaknesses that ChrisWWII have shown. They are not weaknesses of Leman - they are weaknesses of vehicles.
Comparing Leman Russ to most of vehicles shows that it is significantly more durable. It's not Land Raider durable but it still is....
Different Land Raider variants are better against AV or against infantry. Standard Leman Russ is more versatile and cheaper so Ailaros' point is not good.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Vasarto wrote:
If I ever play guard that is the list I want to run lol.

ALSO

You forgot that each of those squads can take a Transport lol.

Indeed they can, but unless you're going for a themed mechanized infantry army, putting PIS in Chimeras is not a competitive idea. They're too expensive, and don't have enough punch to be worth their while. WHat makes mech vets so powerful is that they have 3 special weapons, and BS4, all things that regular Guardsmen lack. Regular Guardsmen are best used in large blobs to hold objectives and lay down massed heavy weapons fire, or forming powerblobs to go forward and kick face.

The ability to take tranports for your platoon INfantry is definitely not one of the IGs strongest features.

Wrong...you can win with hydrid armies without taking a single veteran unit. Instead of veterans you can runner the cheaper platoon command as well as special weapon teams. While they are BS 3, they are cheaper and thus you can take more of them (1 PCS and 2 SWS per platoon) and the SWS borrow the chimeras (or ride the skimmers) from the PIS, embarking on them in turn 1. Thus you can have the PIS form the firebase together with artillery, and the PCS and SWS forming the mech component which advances and engages the enemy (similar role as mechanised vet squads).

Which is why I love hybrid armies. They give you both the flavor of a gunline, as well as having the mech component similar to mechvets..the best of both worlds, and it is a very powerful configuration...

So, like I said earlier, guard makes it easy for newer players to clear out the rifraff.

If you can't figure out how to spread your troops out, get meltaguns into range, or figure out what rear armor AV10 means, well, your problem isn't the guard codex...

freddieyu1 wrote:

Wrong...you can win with hydrid armies without taking a single veteran unit. Instead of veterans you can runner the cheaper platoon command as well as special weapon teams. While they are BS 3, they are cheaper and thus you can take more of them (1 PCS and 2 SWS per platoon) and the SWS borrow the chimeras (or ride the skimmers) from the PIS, embarking on them in turn 1. Thus you can have the PIS form the firebase together with artillery, and the PCS and SWS forming the mech component which advances and engages the enemy (similar role as mechanised vet squads).

Hence what I said. Putting the PISs in Chimeras is not a good idea. Buying them Chimeras, only for the SWSs or PCSs to steal it is a perfectly acceptable idea. The point is, the regular PISs are still being used either as powerblobs or as a firebase.

Macok wrote:
I'm sorry but if you want to use Leman Russ as an example of s fragile unit you can't be taken seriously. 12/12/10 is not something you can't kill. But couple that with a fact that it is cheaper and packs more firepower than most similar vehicles. Leman russ is MUCH cheaper and a bit more versatile than Raider - as a gun platform. Besides EVERY vehicle (-Mono and Land Raider maybe) is easy to kill in CC. It's not a weak point of Leman Russ - it's a weak point of almost every vehicle out there.

Hence why it is a vulnerability of the Leman Russ. Yess, the Leman Russ is much cheaper than a Land Raider, but as AIlaros pointed ou the Leman Russ can't deliver a unit like TH/SS terminators into close combat. If the Leman Russ gets stuck in close combat, it gets killed very easily. The side and rear armor is even more vulnerable to AT weaponry than a Land Raider. Besides, 3 Leman Russes WILL form a siginificant portion of my force..not a simple add on.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Macok wrote:
I'm sorry but if you want to use Leman Russ as an example of s fragile unit you can't be taken seriously. 12/12/10 is not something you can't kill. But couple that with a fact that it is cheaper and packs more firepower than most similar vehicles. Leman russ is MUCH cheaper and a bit more versatile than Raider - as a gun platform. Besides EVERY vehicle (-Mono and Land Raider maybe) is easy to kill in CC. It's not a weak point of Leman Russ - it's a weak point of almost every vehicle out there.

Hence why it is a vulnerability of the Leman Russ. Yess, the Leman Russ is much cheaper than a Land Raider, but as AIlaros pointed ou the Leman Russ can't deliver a unit like TH/SS terminators into close combat. If the Leman Russ gets stuck in close combat, it gets killed very easily. The side and rear armor is even more vulnerable to AT weaponry than a Land Raider. Besides, 3 Leman Russes WILL form a siginificant portion of my force..not a simple add on.

Leman Russ is a long range anti-horde and anti-vehicle gun vehicle. Not a transporter. It's role is totally different than Land Raider. So why are you still comparing LR to LR? And why are you calling something "vulnerability of the Leman Russ" if it is "vulnerability of all vehicles baring maybe two"? How many vehicles CAN deliver TH/SS termies? Is it also vulnerability of Wave Serpent and Trukk?
Because the only "weakness" you've shown is that Russ is no Raider. It's not.. And..?
Guard players are really biased in this thread..

It's weakness is precisely that it is no harder to kill than almost any other vehicle in an assault, and that the proliferation melta & lance weapons make its increased armor often largely irrelevant over most of the other IG vehicles.

It's definitely not a bad unit, and its higher armor is useful in many situations, but really it's not that much different than it was in previous editions, and certainly isn't anything even approaching overpowered.

Macok- Yes, aLeman Russ and a Land Raider have a different role in each army. However, Raiders are also heavily armored vehicles like the Russ, and earlier in his thread someone brought up the fact that the Russ is much cheaper than the Raider. No, Wave Serpents abd Trukks can't deliver TH/SS termies, but they cab deliver Banshees, Fire Dragons, Nobs, Ghazkull, etc. The unit names are different, but the effect is the same.

Yes, a Russes weaknesses are that it is a vehicle, and the fact is that in the IG codex, you're paying a premium for AV14. I can get more firepower with Manticores and Basilisks. AV14 is a luxury and for a Russ that advantage is easily ignored. A lance makes a Russ no more armored than a Hellhound, and meltas make it even more vulnerable, abd assault rapidly turns the Leman into junk as fast as it kills Chimeras. The IG codex has some undercosted, ridiculously powerful units, but the Russ isnt one of them.

Nope. You were the first one to bring Land Raider to the picture. And I disagree with what you said.
Manticores and Basilisks are widely considered better than Leman Russ. That doesn't change the fact Leman is still a good choice. Didn't say it was undercosted but somebody really had to disagree with general analysis of LR made by IG players in this thread. LR is much more durable than other vehicles. There are ways to overcome this but they are not available to all armies. Even when there are there is often a better target for them. Like mentioned Manticores and Basilisks. Front AV14/13/10 is not as bad as you make it.

Noone said the Russ was a bad choice. Just that it's not overpowered.

yeah the LR isn't overpowered at all....if it was OP then it would automatically make it a choice in every WAAC list, which it isn't...

You know what I feel is undercosted? It's the chimera + Special Weapon carrying passenger combo. I don't mind of course...mwahahaha...

Others have argued the vendetta is undercosted...if so i do not feel it, as it has been underwhelming for me....it is it's passengers (I usually use a SWS with a demo charge and 2 flamers) which have been more game turning that the skimmer itself....