Shock value title aside, is anyone else worried about the effectiveness of the GK codex in tournament play? I've been working through different ideas of lists and I'm finding myself marveling at just how small the armies are even when skimping on upgrades. I'm not saying that individual models aren't worth their points in the killing department, but I'm having doubts about tirhe survivability. I'm afraid that the small army sizes means you can only afford a very limited number of 1s and 2s before everything goes to heck. An enemy alphastrike or a couple of bad early rolls seems like it could sink the army very easily, making it somewhat unreliable in a tournament setting. Further, short of spamming Inquisition units, there really aren't options for cheap units like there are in other army books, so you are stuck with fairly pricey units as the only options. Do other people see this as a problem or am I worrying for nothing?

TLDR: Will the small, elite GK army be able to do well in a tournament setting? How do people plan to compensate for the small GK army size and mitigate the effect that bad dice might have in a tournament?

To be honest yes i think they will.
And GK players will be at the mercy of their dice ....just like....everyone else..

It is an army that will lose if the player rolls poorly for armor saves.

thats basically it. Decent rolling means you are as good as anyone else, but any small elite army is more vulnerable to bad dice rolling than a numerous one.

Rather than stating it as 'rolling badly' or 'rolling well' I would state it more as 'Grey Knights are a risky army'

Think of it as a wager on the roll of the dice. A GK player is wagering 20 points per armor save (and will save 2/3 of them but it is not unreasonable to fail 4 of 6). An Ork player (for example) is only gambling away 5 points an armor save (admittedly the odds are worse) but the Ork player can better tolerate a large number of individual losses before capitulating.

Armies with many bodies are Robust in that they generally behave within a smaller region of overall deviation (from the perspective of points losses).

An elite army like GK are not as robust, because you are wagering a larger sum on each dice roll. This is compounded by the fact that failed wagers have a tendency to cascade into subsequent turns as a greater potion of firepower is turned on an increasingly dwindling number of units.

Black Fiend wrote:It is an army that will lose if the player rolls poorly for armor saves.

QFT. For example, making less than 50% of your 3+ saves, when you've taken 25+ wounds spread over 2 units of GKs is kinda a game breaker. (This happened to me).

Xca|iber wrote:

Black Fiend wrote:It is an army that will lose if the player rolls poorly for armor saves.

QFT. For example, making less than 50% of your 3+ saves, when you've taken 25+ wounds spread over 2 units of GKs is kinda a game breaker. (This happened to me).

I think taking 25+ saves is the game breaker...

1) Small elite armies require a master 40k tactician to play effectively. Every unit is valuable and every loss will cut into the army's effectiveness noticeably. If you know you will occasionally make mistakes in movement or other game decisions, don't play elite GK because you will lose far more often that not. That is the reality. Come about 2-3 weeks from now there will be a flood of "GK is weak!?!?!?" and "help me win with GK" posts on dakka. Its because bad/average players will be trying for elite GK when they really shouldn't be.

2)Learn to love Coteaz henchmen spam. It isn't cheese, its equaling the playing field for a vastly outnumbered army. GK badly need spare bodies and decent anti-tank, and henchmen are hands down the best source of both (not counting psydakka dreds). Nevermind the endless squad thing that will get FAQ'd, 4-6 squads of melta warriors and crusaders/assassins in chimeras will be the backbone of many winning armies. Look carefully at the henchmen section of the GK codex and you will see unit combinations that can out fight or out shoot the rest of the army. They can run mech vet spam far cheaper than IG is capable of, or big units of PW toting, invulnerable saving cc monsters. The options are there, and in my opinion, will be used by more and more winning players as the months advance.

3) Units will be most effective when they focus on specific tasks and buy the few essential upgrades to excel at that job. IE: don't buy army-wide halberd upgrades if most of your units never get to cc, or if you often face armies with I3 or 6+. Just because they will be more powerful on paper, doesn't equate to the same thing on the tabletop.
Having said that: psycannons rule and you should never leave home without them.

4) The following units are what make GK awesome: Purifiers, vindicare assassins, psydakka dreds and henchmen. The real key will be making smart decisions with your HQ choices on how best to unlock and boost the power of these units.

Another reason that Henchmen are an excellent buy for the grey knights is the Chimera.

What makes it very good is that you can take your terminator armored HQ's and get them in a transport without paying 200+ pts for either a Storm Raven or a Land Raider.

This makes it viable to actually have one of the great Grey Knight HQ's, and not a cheap Inquisitor, in lower point games.

The only problem i have with GK are the cheapness of the powered armour squads for the wargear they have.

I think it works out that for a marine squad to get the same it was 125% more expensive, without the extra abilities.

I play BA DoA and if it wasn't for FNP I don't the army would viable as top tier. This is something GK don't have but maybe they can still do very well anyways. It is still much too early to say.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:I play BA DoA and if it wasn't for FNP I don't the army would viable as top tier. This is something GK don't have but maybe they can still do very well anyways. It is still much too early to say.

+1. Completely right on both points.

The army lacks the landspeeder, but a psybolt amunision razor back twin linked S6 shots seem very decent at 50 points.

That Khimeras and dakkadreads and you have an elite transport MSU army.

The army makes heavy use of psychic powers and rules, coupled with MEQ and TEQ bodies with the sprinkling of IG-esque units and Dreads popping in their. The GK advantage will be that their troop slots will effectively be filled by both run of the mill units and top tier elites, making anything on the board both an early threat and a late game threat, especially when considering games with objectives and the ability to skirt half the field in one move to contest an objective.

The main strength of GK is that they are an extreme meta-game monkey wrench.. Their units arent that expensive for what you get and considering some of their abilities have no viable counter for the opponents theyre meant for

DoA BA is easily handled by warp quake.. Okay psychic hood could stop it, but you use it at the START of your movement phase which means the librarian is not on the table yet.. You DS within 12" you basically die or are screwed over. You DS over 12" and thats not the point of the army.. they back up 6" and shoot you which makes you over 18" away

Thunderwolves are nerfed hardcore by ANY Gk CC attack and lack of furious charge means you're gonna get hit.. Talisman can help sure, but Ill take a force weapon over a 5+ save anyday.. You'll fail enough. I imagine Gks can out razorback spam SWs now (what a lame army anyway)

Orks? Cleansing flame and again FWs for nobs/warboss.. Henchmen and psycannons solve the deffrolla spam

nids.. yeah.. FWs again and warp quake stops zoeys + doom most likely.. cleansing flame kills genestealers

The only real danger is.. as *always* imperial guard. But in larger tournaments its all about matchups

Screwing over the metagame for so many armies can have a huge effect on the outcome

WarOne wrote: especially when considering games with objectives and the ability to skirt half the field in one move to contest an objective.

Not only that but a Grand Master can make them late game 30in scoring units. Even better since Grand Strategy is used before forces are deployed you can make 1 unit of 10 GKI into 2 scoring unit, for only 1 of the D3 chooses. If you had the points thats 14 to 18 scoring units, without using the iffy henchmen spam.

grayspark wrote:

Afrikan Blonde wrote:I play BA DoA and if it wasn't for FNP I don't the army would viable as top tier. This is something GK don't have but maybe they can still do very well anyways. It is still much too early to say.

+1. Completely right on both points.

+1 again. However even with it still being early, I think we can still make educated guesses on how suitable the codex will be for tournaments.

They're running on a knife edge. Roll well, they'll steamroll. Roll badly and EVERY mistake could lose you the game.

Kirasu wrote:
The only real danger is.. as *always* imperial guard. But in larger tournaments its all about matchups

I love how people keep saying this.

I've played my Grey Knights against 3 guard parking lots now....and totally crushed them all.

Against certain Grey Knight builds....Guard's only chance is to go first, if not, they're done.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Kirasu wrote:
The only real danger is.. as *always* imperial guard. But in larger tournaments its all about matchups

I love how people keep saying this.

I've played my Grey Knights against 3 guard parking lots now....and totally crushed them all.

Against certain Grey Knight builds....Guard's only chance is to go first, if not, they're done.

TBH, I am one of those who think IG would be a tough matchup for Grey Knights from a pure theoryhammer standpoint. IG has the ability to kill models fast and with GKs starting with so few I thought the IG would reduce the GKs beyond the point of being able to punch back. What have you found to be the major difference between theory and playtesting?

Kirasu wrote:The main strength of GK is that they are an extreme meta-game monkey wrench.. Their units arent that expensive for what you get and considering some of their abilities have no viable counter for the opponents theyre meant for

DoA BA is easily handled by warp quake.. Okay psychic hood could stop it, but you use it at the START of your movement phase which means the librarian is not on the table yet.. You DS within 12" you basically die or are screwed over. You DS over 12" and thats not the point of the army.. they back up 6" and shoot you which makes you over 18" away

Thunderwolves are nerfed hardcore by ANY Gk CC attack and lack of furious charge means you're gonna get hit.. Talisman can help sure, but Ill take a force weapon over a 5+ save anyday.. You'll fail enough. I imagine Gks can out razorback spam SWs now (what a lame army anyway)

Orks? Cleansing flame and again FWs for nobs/warboss.. Henchmen and psycannons solve the deffrolla spam

nids.. yeah.. FWs again and warp quake stops zoeys + doom most likely.. cleansing flame kills genestealers

The only real danger is.. as *always* imperial guard. But in larger tournaments its all about matchups

Screwing over the metagame for so many armies can have a huge effect on the outcome

reall wolves have a strong chance how does thunderwolf get nerfed by a power weapon as half will hit and 1 third wound and 2 thirds are saved?

Deadshane1 wrote:

Kirasu wrote:
The only real danger is.. as *always* imperial guard. But in larger tournaments its all about matchups

I love how people keep saying this.

I've played my Grey Knights against 3 guard parking lots now....and totally crushed them all.

Against certain Grey Knight builds....Guard's only chance is to go first, if not, they're done.

Why wouldnt people say this? IG is the best codex. If any army would be tougher than the rest it would be them

Deadshane1 wrote:I love how people keep saying this.

I've played my Grey Knights against 3 guard parking lots now....and totally crushed them all.

Against certain Grey Knight builds....Guard's only chance is to go first, if not, they're done.

So you played a whole 3 games against bad/unlucky IG players?

What "certain" GK builds? IG massed shooting alone will take a toll on GKs limited numbers and rip up henchmen GEQs. Add in anything decent (like plasma/melta vets vets, AP3 templates, Flak Cannons to down Dreads/stormravens from range, etc.) and it gets nasty since GKs are very much a midrange/close up force.

As to out RBing Space Wolves- good luck with that. GKs are more expensive and henchmen much more fragile. Neither can do the 75 point 3+ save countercharge flamer squad to get the RB. But they can do 10 man combat squads and have 1 5 man Close unit to ride around and 2 psycannons to hang back. Different style. As to changing the meta, TWC are less common than Missile Spam LFs. Guess which one still rocks against an army of 3+ save 20 pt dudes that have rhinos, RBs, and Chimeras as their primary transport?

GKs are tough, but are unforgiving. The big meta shift they do is make plasma more useful

rovian wrote:

Kirasu wrote:*snip*

reall wolves have a strong chance how does thunderwolf get nerfed by a power weapon as half will hit and 1 third wound and 2 thirds are saved?

Because out of the 3 wounds that your 5 Thunderwolves take, with a successful psychic test, they're all ID.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jmurph wrote:The big meta shift they do is make plasma more useful

/agree

rovian wrote:
reall wolves have a strong chance how does thunderwolf get nerfed by a power weapon as half will hit and 1 third wound and 2 thirds are saved?

Yeah, instant death dealing I6 Power Weapons totally don't threaten TWs... /sarcasm

I'm perhaps missing the "elite low count" army. A 5 man strike squad with a cannon, and boosted bolter back is 160 pts. This compares fairly well to vanilla marines in a razorback (5 guys with TLplamsa/LC back is 165 for vanilla, slightly less for SW and BA). It doesn't have the ap, or S9, but AP doesn't matter as much with cover these days, and the volume of fire is higher out of this unit than the other marine books (and rending S7 heavy 4 has a better chance against heavy armor than a LC).

GKs can buy a HQ with termie armor, cannon, and a S6 hammer for less than 100 pts, so their HQs don't have to be expensive. Even at low points its possible to get effective HQ choices without breaking the bank.

GKs can field reasonably cheap fire support units to go with the cheap HQs, you don't need henchman as troops lists to get your fire support units, and you don't need to go crazy with space monkeys either.

GKs get BETTER versions of riffleman dreads, for rather cheap. They also have ven dreds that are worth taking (dropping your destroyed results down to shaken and stunned, which can be negated with a LD 10 test) S8 spam for a bargain price + taking even more of them on better platforms than other armies will buy? They can keep firing barring destroyed or all weapons destroyed? You can take these platforms even if you use up slots from elites or heavy, so its not a take this unit, miss out on fire support dreads situation.

They get cheap MCs, which have a save that laughs at ML spam? A MC that is actually good at killing elite infantry (barring TH/SS termies, which are anti MC specialists) and vehicles in CC?

I think that some people are focusing too much on the elite units that DO cost an arm and a leg, and buying an entire army of said units, complete with 2 Full GK commanders... Properly built, a GK army should probably have about the same model count that any other marine army has (and probably even more fire power). If you bring the elite stuff, balance it out with the cheap units (which are still good).

Yea....I only play against bad/unlucky guard players. Way to enforce a point. You've got this game totally figured out eh? No way to surprise YOU.

I think its more likely that poor Grey Knights players arent factoring common competetive guard builds into their battle plan.

Three Psychic Powers are death to Guard. Shrouding, Fortitude, and Might of Titan....and whaddya know...guard cannot hood them anymore.

Then you've got rifleman (Ven?) dreads and loaded transports poping smoke or under cover while Shrouded.

Figure it out.

IG have very little answer to Ven Rifleman Dreads with psybolt ammo and fortitude. It's the closest thing to a 4th edition Holofalcon I've seen and it shoots better.

Deadshane1 wrote:guard cannot hood them anymore.

While I do agree with most of your post, this one I don't agree with, since guard can still take WH inquisitors (which weren't used before because they don't get mystics). If guard will take them remains to be seen though, since they don't do much else.

DarthDiggler wrote:IG have very little answer to Ven Rifleman Dreads with psybolt ammo and fortitude. It's the closest thing to a 4th edition Holofalcon I've seen and it shoots better.

Ding ding ding....put a smoked rhino in front of that dread and shroud them both. What do you have?


....something a guard gunline cannot hurt/shut down but inflicts plenty of pain.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Three Psychic Powers are death to Guard. Shrouding, Fortitude, and Might of Titan....and whaddya know...guard cannot hood them anymore

WH Inquisitors still have psychic hoods...

notabot187 wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:guard cannot hood them anymore.

While I do agree with most of your post, this one I don't agree with, since guard can still take WH inquisitors (which weren't used before because they don't get mystics). If guard will take them remains to be seen though, since they don't do much else.

I dont think many guard players will do this. Even if they do however, a hood is a far cry away from "Breaking" a GK army. They're hardly "for certain" defence against ld 10 psykers.

Better to use those points to bring more gunz.

I don't know where people are getting the idea that GK's can only bring a few guys to the table, for example:

- 10 man BA assault squad, 190pts
- 10 man Tactical squad, 170pts
- 10 man Grey Hunters, 150pts
- 10 Grey Knights, 200pts

They really are not that more expensive than marines, considering they all have storm bolters, force weapons and S5 in CC with their power. Storm bolters alone cost about 2/3 points, so these guys are getting all their neato stuff for just a point or two. Look at razor spam lists. Your gona have about 20-35 men on the table and yet they are competitive.

An interesting comparison would be 10 dire avengers in a wave serpent with blade storm. For about 20 points cheaper, you can take 10 grey knights in a rhino that have a similar shooting ability, are nasty in close combat and are hard as marines to kill. Their CC ability is that of a dedicated CC unit so you don't really need to spend points there.The fact that they are T4 3+ Sv means that you can get away with making more mistakes than you could using something like the two eldar armies.

This talk of upgrades, what the hell do you need to take on these guys!? Run them bare bones and they are killy enough, maybe a flamer if you can, but not much else. I heard something about making their storm bolters S5 for cheep, which could be worth it.

I will admit I have read the codex though myself, but from talk from my friends, I think all you need are about 30-40 grey knights, some long range anti- tank and a couple of templates and I think you have all the basis's covered for an incredibly flexible list.

I guess after the "GK will effortlessly own any and all games" stage, we're now entering the "GK's are pathetically weak! They lost to this 3x6 Long Fang list at my club!" phase.

After bouncing low and high, I still think the curve will stabilize as GK's being a top tier codex, on the strength of the basic package (3+ armor, +1S on many weapons, psykers, spammable henchmen to make up for low-ish model count, etc.) and the option to customize with further units.

As for people saying "they are vulnerable to poor dice rolls!", I have to scratch my head. It's like watching the commentary of a UFC match and having the guys go "You see, Anderson Silva is the top man at his category, but he has a big weakness: he breathes oxygen and has a mouth right under his nose". That's the case for everyone!

I've fought horde armies that bungled on poor dice rolling, making their Lootas underperform severely. It didn't even that that much bad luck: just the wrong roll on a sensitive unit.

Kirasu wrote:The main strength of GK is that they are an extreme meta-game monkey wrench.. Their units arent that expensive for what you get and considering some of their abilities have no viable counter for the opponents theyre meant for

That's not called a monkey wrench, that called broken as ****. Or over powered as ****, whichever you prefer.

And I hate things that have no way to play against them, GKs have tons of them. I also hate things that are underpointed, GKs have tons of them.

Yes any player can lose with any codex, but even a half way compotent person behind this book will own. Too many things are army breaking for too little points. A player can build a very resilient list, with just as many bodies as a normal marine army, that has unbelievable rock hard counters to most all of the tournament builds that the other player can't stop. It's a bit ridiculous if you ask me.

sHOEbOX wrote:
I will admit I have read the codex though myself, but from talk from my friends, I think all you need are about 30-40 grey knights, some long range anti- tank and a couple of templates and I think you have all the basis's covered for an incredibly flexible list.

That's the problem. Armour 13+ is going to be painful for GKs to deal with at range, and everything with that kind of armour is lethal in one way or another.

sHOEbOX wrote:- 10 man BA assault squad, 190pts
- 10 man Tactical squad, 170pts
- 10 man Grey Hunters, 150pts
- 10 Grey Knights, 200pts

-10 man Plague Marine squad, 230pts (without Champion)
-10 Man Thousand Sons Squad, 280pts (w/mandatory sorcerer at the cheapest)

Sorry, I had to butt in and parade my tragedy.

But yeah, tell me more about the horrendous, codex-sinking point cost of GK infantry.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
Yes any player can lose with any codex, but even a half way compotent person behind this book will own. Too many things are army breaking for too little points. A player can build a very resilient list, with just as many bodies as a normal marine army, that has unbelievable rock hard counters to most all of the tournament builds that the other player can't stop. It's a bit ridiculous if you ask me.

This is almost word for word, exactly the same thing that has been said about...the current marine dex, Guard, Wolves, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels.....

In other words, it's gak.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That's the problem. Armour 13+ is going to be painful for GKs to deal with at range, and everything with that kind of armour is lethal in one way or another.

Armour 13+ is no problem at all for armies that feature Rifleman Dreads. Killing it's not important, so long as it's silenced for a turn....onto the next target.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

sHOEbOX wrote:
I will admit I have read the codex though myself, but from talk from my friends, I think all you need are about 30-40 grey knights, some long range anti- tank and a couple of templates and I think you have all the basis's covered for an incredibly flexible list.

That's the problem. Armour 13+ is going to be painful for GKs to deal with at range, and everything with that kind of armour is lethal in one way or another.

AV 13+ is painful for any unit at range, even Lasscannons have issue, needing 4s to have any effect. MLs are only meh against it, needing a 6 to pen. GK cannons (either type) can shred AV 13 as easily as any other army can.

Deadshane1 wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
Yes any player can lose with any codex, but even a half way compotent person behind this book will own. Too many things are army breaking for too little points. A player can build a very resilient list, with just as many bodies as a normal marine army, that has unbelievable rock hard counters to most all of the tournament builds that the other player can't stop. It's a bit ridiculous if you ask me.

This is almost word for word, exactly the same thing that has been said about...the current marine dex, Guard, Wolves, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels.....

In other words, it's gak.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That's the problem. Armour 13+ is going to be painful for GKs to deal with at range, and everything with that kind of armour is lethal in one way or another.

Armour 13+ is no problem at all for armies that feature Rifleman Dreads. Killing it's not important, so long as it's silenced for a turn....onto the next target.

although true a land raider will never be silenced since PotMS will keep least one gun going and thats whats on the table most of the time cept if playing guard with Leman russes

Alphacerberus wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
Yes any player can lose with any codex, but even a half way compotent person behind this book will own. Too many things are army breaking for too little points. A player can build a very resilient list, with just as many bodies as a normal marine army, that has unbelievable rock hard counters to most all of the tournament builds that the other player can't stop. It's a bit ridiculous if you ask me.

This is almost word for word, exactly the same thing that has been said about...the current marine dex, Guard, Wolves, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels.....

In other words, it's gak.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That's the problem. Armour 13+ is going to be painful for GKs to deal with at range, and everything with that kind of armour is lethal in one way or another.

Armour 13+ is no problem at all for armies that feature Rifleman Dreads. Killing it's not important, so long as it's silenced for a turn....onto the next target.

although true a land raider will never be silenced since PotMS will keep least one gun going and thats whats on the table most of the time cept if playing guard with Leman russes

The most competetive or winningest lists out there dont feature Land Raiders. So this is a non-issue.

Leman russes can be silenced by riflemen as well (if you've run out of softer/Jucier targets).

Deadshane1 wrote:Yea....I only play against bad/unlucky guard players. Way to enforce a point. You've got this game totally figured out eh? No way to surprise YOU.

I think its more likely that poor Grey Knights players arent factoring common competetive guard builds into their battle plan.

Three Psychic Powers are death to Guard. Shrouding, Fortitude, and Might of Titan....and whaddya know...guard cannot hood them anymore.

Then you've got rifleman (Ven?) dreads and loaded transports poping smoke or under cover while Shrouded.

Figure it out.

Guard just need to focus firepower on the librarian's transport first unless he popped smoke + shroud, then go for a target without cover. If his ride is immobile or wrecked then shrouding and might of titan can't keep up with the rest of the army and/or the army has to slow down to pick up their librarian. Manticores really don't care about shrouding when shooting at MEQ with 3+ armor saves.

Regular non venerable dreads are probably the next priority target. Guard are not defenseless when it comes to blowing up AV12 targets, and fortitude doesn't do much against melta vets as penetrating melta hits are far more likely to kill than stun. The entire army can't stay within 6" of a single librarian.

Last but not least many GK armies won't even have a librarian. GK have too many awesome HQ choices, and many armies that include cortez, draigo, or crowe run the risk of not even having a librarian when they run up against IG.

A mech GK versus mech IG fight seems like a fair fight

Deadshane1 wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
Yes any player can lose with any codex, but even a half way compotent person behind this book will own. Too many things are army breaking for too little points. A player can build a very resilient list, with just as many bodies as a normal marine army, that has unbelievable rock hard counters to most all of the tournament builds that the other player can't stop. It's a bit ridiculous if you ask me.

This is almost word for word, exactly the same thing that has been said about...the current marine dex, Guard, Wolves, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels.....

In other words, it's gak.

Warpquake destroys deepstriking armies - which have no counter.
Ridiculous instant death psychic power destroys nids - which have a very expensive, easy to destroy, not very effective counter
Ridiculous everyone takes a wound on a 4+ power destroys orks - which have no counter
Virtually all psychic defense is now 24" or less which brings it into to a mass of SB and Psycannon death.
135 pt dreads that can't be shaken or stunned destroys guard and mech eldar - which have only ok counters
A 20pt marine w/ SB, PW, and a ridiculous amount of special rules out classes most marine armies.
In the same army you get arguably the best CC abilities, and now all the access to cheap effective special weapons of guard, and close to the best long range anti tank (the best long range anti transport).
And to top it all off, you can fit in doubles of all of these things in one 1850 list.

There is no arguement to be made that these guys are underpowered. Maybe it's early to say the sky is falling, but it doesn't look good in my opinion.

I think the GK will have undo power IF the player avoids all the fluffy high priced stuff. If I am reading it correctly for less than 300 points I can get 10 marines, with some I6 power weapons, putting out 16 S5 shots and 4 S8 shots out to 24" range. So playing an 1850 list you can easily field about 50 GK in power armor with 80 S5 shots and20 S8 shots. Sure they have range issues but placing them in Rhinos should give you the protection and ability to get within killing range quite easily. If they get swamped by hoards they will have their issues but that kind of firepower when kept at the 18" to 24" area should prove quite devastating.

The point is, Grey Knight models die just as easily as the other Power Armored models. 10 Grey Knights @ 200 Points die just as easily as your 150 point Grey Hunter Unit, but once you give them a Rhino, they're still cheaper, and can move now. Assault squad 190 Pts. They can move 12" a turn and then Assault 6", not a good comparison. I think the Chaos Marine comparison shines the best candle on their price. Cheers.

Do I think they're underpowered? Nah, do I think they're overpowered? Nah. They're top tier as was stated, but they're not unbeatable, which is what some would have you think. Every army can be beaten and once the key is found, they'll die.

No, what pisses me off about the book most is the dang Inquisitional nonesense that seems to be added as a mere afterthought to the book. As has been stated, some of the most powerful lists out of the book will be formed with Corteaz and his legions of cheap veterans and Psycher battle squads.. sheesh.

A good IG player that foregoes the blanket Ld10 psyhood knowing full well that 3++ Psyflemen are "out there" is simply foolish.

At that point it becomes a duel between two alphastrike armies to see who gets the first shot off or who can roll better on the psyhood test.

sourclams wrote:A good IG player that foregoes the blanket Ld10 psyhood knowing full well that 3++ Psyflemen are "out there" is simply foolish.

At that point it becomes a duel between two alphastrike armies to see who gets the first shot off or who can roll better on the psyhood test.

Even against a hood you could potentially "Shroud" 3 times with a single libby. At least twice.

Doubtful they're going to stop that.

...and not worth the expenditure/FOC slot if you ask me. Not to stop Grey Knight Libbys.

This is almost word for word, exactly the same thing that has been said about...the current marine dex, Guard, Wolves, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels.....

In other words, it's gak.

I would tend to agree that Grey Knights SEEM like they should be tough to use, but in all actuality, the builds people WILL end up using will likely be point and click.

The best example is the Psyfleman Dred spam. That's a pretty hurp-derp build. What skill does it take to put dreds in cover near a libby? Choosing what to shoot each turn? Rolling dice? There's not much there. Add in Razorbacks and support the Libby with a unit to stop deep strikers. That's not hard for any player to use.

Sadly, the problem I see with the codex is that is just isn't interesting or different anymore. Sure, you can play with units that are GK specific, but power lists will end up being Razorspam with silver power weapon toting marines backed up by undercosted Dreadnaughts. Yawn. Or Cortez henchman spam. Backed up by undercosted Dreds. Yawn. Or a fluff abomination mix. Either way, it's just boring.

I think in theory, a balanced GK list is tough to use. However, the power lists don't look like they will be tough to use, new, exciting, or interesting.

JGrand wrote:

This is almost word for word, exactly the same thing that has been said about...the current marine dex, Guard, Wolves, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels.....

In other words, it's gak.

I would tend to agree that Grey Knights SEEM like they should be tough to use, but in all actuality, the builds people WILL end up using will likely be point and click.

The best example is the Psyfleman Dred spam. That's a pretty hurp-derp build. What skill does it take to put dreds in cover near a libby? Choosing what to shoot each turn? Rolling dice? There's not much there. Add in Razorbacks and support the Libby with a unit to stop deep strikers. That's not hard for any player to use.

Well, I guess this is a game of hurp-derp then. Lash/Oblit spam, Guard Parking Lot/Leafblower, Razorspam with Longfang Missle support, DoA Spam.....Like those all require any more thought than a Psyfleman Dreadspam build. Why should Grey Knights be any different?

(acutally I find this point totally incorrect as a better player will generallly come out on top regardless of if he's running a "herp-derp" build, I love that term btw, or an original build)

Sadly, the problem I see with the codex is that is just isn't interesting or different anymore. Sure, you can play with units that are GK specific, but power lists will end up being Razorspam with silver power weapon toting marines backed up by undercosted Dreadnaughts. Yawn. Or Cortez henchman spam. Backed up by undercosted Dreds. Yawn. Or a fluff abomination mix. Either way, it's just boring.

I think in theory, a balanced GK list is tough to use. However, the power lists don't look like they will be tough to use, new, exciting, or interesting.

So....what? It's impossible to run a balanced dreadspam list with libby support?

Only lists that are more difficult to use are balanced? Whut?

Again, more of the same arguements we've heard before any of the last 4 codex releases.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
Yes any player can lose with any codex, but even a half way compotent person behind this book will own. Too many things are army breaking for too little points. A player can build a very resilient list, with just as many bodies as a normal marine army, that has unbelievable rock hard counters to most all of the tournament builds that the other player can't stop. It's a bit ridiculous if you ask me.

This is almost word for word, exactly the same thing that has been said about...the current marine dex, Guard, Wolves, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels.....

In other words, it's gak.

Warpquake destroys deepstriking armies - which have no counter.
Ridiculous instant death psychic power destroys nids - which have a very expensive, easy to destroy, not very effective counter
Ridiculous everyone takes a wound on a 4+ power destroys orks - which have no counter
Virtually all psychic defense is now 24" or less which brings it into to a mass of SB and Psycannon death.
135 pt dreads that can't be shaken or stunned destroys guard and mech eldar - which have only ok counters
A 20pt marine w/ SB, PW, and a ridiculous amount of special rules out classes most marine armies.
In the same army you get arguably the best CC abilities, and now all the access to cheap effective special weapons of guard, and close to the best long range anti tank (the best long range anti transport).
And to top it all off, you can fit in doubles of all of these things in one 1850 list.

There is no arguement to be made that these guys are underpowered. Maybe it's early to say the sky is falling, but it doesn't look good in my opinion.

Keep in mind that nids make it very hard for GKs to get their powers off with shadow in the warp.
Also, many people are skimping or skipping unit that get warpquake, so its not going to be as common as the chicken littles are screaming about.
Purifiers with their power are scary, for sure, but orks hordes are going to suck against GKs anyways, because that army sucks period. Orks have better lists, like burna boyz and nobs in BW(sure, nobs get IDed, but the PK should kill enough to make up for it), kan wall, and even gunline.
Cheap riffle dreads with S8 are cool, but makes up for the lack of other non henchmen long range fire support. No preds, no real devs, hell, even their storm raven don't even have anti tank missiles like BA do. Are you really that afraid of an AV 12 walker? Sure they can take 6 of the things (including vens) but that means they give up other options in those slots.
GKs still get hammered by TH/SS, which are still point for point (and against most targets) the most durable, powerful, and useful assault unit. GK CC units have to specialize, and even then they aren't the best in their field. S5 PW, or S4 force weapons, sound good, but low numbers of attacks doesn't. Crappy invuls on termies doesn't sound good either. Paying an arm and a leg for 2 wound termies with FNP which die to anti termy weapons anyways doesn't sound good.
The "cheap" guard equiv units aren't as cheap as they seem. You have to use HQ slots to unlock them, and that should be added to their cost. GKs get them because they plug holes in what the list can do in terms of points and lack of basic special weapons like melta guns and plasma in a normal PAGK or GKT units.

Sephyr wrote:It's like watching the commentary of a UFC match and having the guys go "You see, Anderson Silva is the top man at his category, but he has a big weakness: he breathes oxygen and has a mouth right under his nose".

See, now you've made a fundamental logical mistake here; Anderson Silva doesn't respire, he subsists on the fear of his enemies.

8 Grey Knights, Psycannon, Rhino, 210 pts
-OR-
8 Grey Knights, Incinerator, Rhino, 220 pts

Shoot the special weapon out of the opening hatch to pop transports/mush infantry.

Purifiers squads are going to make hordes redundant; you can get S6 AP4 flamers for free and can make an enemy unit take a wound on a 4+ for every model in that unit, chances are you will kill about 14 orks before you even hit them with your close combat attacks. And guess what boys and girls, you can take as troops for the price of a 150 point HQ...


6 Grey Knights, TL Las Razorback, 210 pts

Times this by 6 and you get 1,260 points. At 'ard boys, you still have half your points to spend after you have 36 grey knights and 6 razorbacks. You've countered the CC problem that razorback lists seem to have with the knights inside, and you can go for the TL lascannon because you have so many power weapons you don't need the plasma and you can't fire the two guns whilst moving anyway. Lascannons shouldn't have to many problems with glancing AV13 to uselessness.

You could then take 3 riflemen dreads with S8 shots for 135 points, 4 TL S8 shots each on a armour 12 plaform.

Tbh, that pretty much does it for the long range anti- tank, troops and CC ability for 1,665 points. You now have another 835 points to spend at 'ard boys. Enjoy.

Oh, and did I forget to mention 10 point thunder hammers on each troops choice...?

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
Warpquake destroys deepstriking armies - which have no counter.

Don't deepstrike? Deploy in/behind cover?

Ridiculous instant death psychic power destroys nids - which have a very expensive, easy to destroy, not very effective counter

Said above...shadow.

Ridiculous everyone takes a wound on a 4+ power destroys orks - which have no counter

I forgot that charging with a 30 man boys squad is the ONLY way that orks can attack/destroy units. It's not like they have any shooting (lootas/battlewagon burna boys) or HtH that can handle that (Nob Bikers with FNP)

Virtually all psychic defense is now 24" or less which brings it into to a mass of SB and Psycannon death.

Unless you're Eldar. Psychic defense is Gravy....many competetive armies out there dont even have it....and they still own.

135 pt dreads that can't be shaken or stunned destroys guard and mech eldar - which have only ok counters

Yea, eldar runes are only O.K.

A 20pt marine w/ SB, PW, and a ridiculous amount of special rules out classes most marine armies.

....and you base this on....what exactly? Tournament results?

In the same army you get arguably the best CC abilities, and now all the access to cheap effective special weapons of guard, and close to the best long range anti tank (the best long range anti transport).

Best CC abilities? Thats a laugh, they have good weapons and some psychic buffing....AND A SINGLE ATTACK in many cases. Long Range anti-tank is good...thats obvious. Best? Debatable.

And to top it all off, you can fit in doubles of all of these things in one 1850 list.

Not all of it.

There is no arguement to be made that these guys are underpowered.

The reverse is also true. They're not necessarily OVERpowered either....at least no conclusive evidence to that yet.

Well, I guess this is a game of hurp-derp then. Lash/Oblit spam, Guard Parking Lot/Leafblower, Razorspam with Longfang Missle support, DoA Spam.....Like those all require any more thought than a Psyfleman Dreadspam build. Why should Grey Knights be any different?

(acutally I find this point totally incorrect as a better player will generallly come out on top regardless of if he's running a "herp-derp" build, I love that term btw, or an original build)

I completely understand that most power lists are relatively point and click. If they weren't extremely optimized, people would not use them. I was just refuting the point that GK are hard to use. I don't particularly think any type of Marine is that hard to use. When coupled with a min-maxed build, it's even easier. Even something like DoA is easy because the DS element is so toned down. 1d6 scatter is nothing. So, yes I understand using power builds. I just don't really think Dred spam is a good defense to GK being a hard to use elite army.

Though I do agree, the better player usually comes out on top and can overcome other lists as long as they are taking competitive stuff as well. Not necessarily power stuff, but competitive stuff.

So....what? It's impossible to run a balanced dreadspam list with libby support?

Only lists that are more difficult to use are balanced? Whut?

Again, more of the same arguements we've heard before any of the last 4 codex releases.

I guess when I think of a new army, I expect it to be cool and different. GK used to be very different. Now, the are Silver Marines. Sure, you could run Storm Ravens flying Paladins, Termies, and Strike squads around with some Purifiers peppered in. Maybe even a Dread Knight or 2. But that won't happen in the competitive scene. The min-maxed choices are usually relatively obvious to good players. Everyone with a brain knew that Purifiers, Librarians, Henchman, and Psyfleman would be the best stuff from a game perspective. This becomes all people use.

I suppose I simply wanted GK to be aesthetically different. Seeing one of the coolest fluff armies reduced to Razorspam and Dreadnaughts is disheartening. So I guess I'm a bit biased there. I wish they didn't have the choice or Razors (and maybe even Rhinos) but could use the teleporters as troops. Or deepstrike around. Something, anything to make them different.

JGrand wrote:Everyone with a brain knew that Paladins, Librarians, Henchman, and Psyfleman would be the best stuff from a game perspective. This becomes all people use.

I largely agree with your post, and even with most of this statement, but Paladins look like garbage relative to other options. Yeah, if your opponent does nothing but spray you with bolter fire, Paladins are money, and they do perform better than GKTs against plasma as well. But today's meta heavily features S8+ shooting and Pallies just cost too much for the return you get. I could see some modest inclusion at 2500, possibly, but anything lower and they're just a white elephant.

Deadshane1 wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:IG have very little answer to Ven Rifleman Dreads with psybolt ammo and fortitude. It's the closest thing to a 4th edition Holofalcon I've seen and it shoots better.

Ding ding ding....put a smoked rhino in front of that dread and shroud them both. What do you have?


....something a guard gunline cannot hurt/shut down but inflicts plenty of pain.

Is that a joke? What if they just shoot you with a Manticore? What if they have Vendettas? What if they drive up and melta you? The venerable psyfleman is probably the most overblown unit since SM Vanguard Veterans were first leaked and everyone started freaking out about the prospect of models assaulting out of deepstrike. It is not effective for its points cost, at all-- not only does it waste the stat upgrades provided by the 60 point Venerable upgrade, which are dubiously worth it to begin with, but it uses a more competitive slot than its non-venerable counterpart to boot! I would take 3 normal psyflemen over 2 venerable psyflemen any day, and for a mere 15 point premium I honestly don't know why people would field the Venerable variant.

Someone is probably going to say "what if you want more than 3 psyflemen" and maybe even post up the 3+3 dreadnought spam list, to which I'll point out that generally armies that spend half their points on suppression units aren't very good, and that even basic competitive builds like Vulkan dual-LR enjoy massive advantages against this kind of unimaginative list.

So you played a whole 3 games against bad/unlucky IG players?

What "certain" GK builds? IG massed shooting alone will take a toll on GKs limited numbers and rip up henchmen GEQs.

I'm with Deadshane on this one. It's way too early to tell but my instinct is that if one codex had to be put up for the pedestal then GK would be the best army in the game now. The army can be built to shoot as hard or nearly as hard as IG while still retaining an incredible amount of special abilities and viable counter-assault capability which the IG doesn't possess.

I would appreciate if people stopped talking like AV13 or AV14 is a problem for GK. You can viably get 26 mechanised melta weapons shooting through fire points into the troops slots alone for about 670 points only. Seriously, how long will it take for you to figure this out?

I guess it'll take a couple tournaments for people to stop imagining GK as a low model count elite army and realise it's an IG and allied Purifiers cake with sickeningly good special rules and psychic powers cherry on top.

I also wouldn't agree for one second that GK will be 'hard to use' as someone suggested. If we're talking Paladins and personal teleporters again then I'll remind you that any bad army list is hard to get wins with against competitive players. The good GK armies autopilot their way to victories just as much or more than any of the other competitive tournament builds out there.

A good IG player that foregoes the blanket Ld10 psyhood knowing full well that 3++ Psyflemen are "out there" is simply foolish.

At that point it becomes a duel between two alphastrike armies to see who gets the first shot off or who can roll better on the psyhood test.

IG are easily good enough to always have a chance to win. The marginals are very small but currently I believe the GK have the edge. A WH Inquisitor brings it close but still not quite there in overall tournament flexibility. Cleansing Flame is what does it for me.

Deadshane1 wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
Virtually all psychic defense is now 24" or less which brings it into to a mass of SB and Psycannon death.

Unless you're Eldar. Psychic defense is Gravy....many competetive armies out there dont even have it....and they still own.

Deadshane wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:135 pt dreads that can't be shaken or stunned destroys guard and mech eldar - which have only ok counters

Yea, eldar runes are only O.K.

Yeah - GK may be one reason why I start favoring my Eldar a bit more. Board-wide Runes and Transports that ignore all those Rending weapons.

Therion wrote:I'm with Deadshane on this one. It's way too early to tell but my instinct is that if one codex had to be put up for the pedestal then GK would be the best army in the game now. The army can be built to shoot as hard or nearly as hard as IG while still retaining an incredible amount of special abilities and viable counter-assault capability which the IG doesn't possess.

I couldn't disagree more, Therion-- Coteaz seems almost like a complete red herring for competitive play to me. When BS 3 Henchmen in Chimerae with Psyfleman support go up against BS 4 Veterans in Chimerae with Hydra/Manticore/Vendetta support, it isn't too hard to figure out what will happen.

Deadshane1 wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
Warpquake destroys deepstriking armies - which have no counter.

Don't deepstrike? Deploy in/behind cover?

Ridiculous instant death psychic power destroys nids - which have a very expensive, easy to destroy, not very effective counter

Said above...shadow.

Ridiculous everyone takes a wound on a 4+ power destroys orks - which have no counter

I forgot that charging with a 30 man boys squad is the ONLY way that orks can attack/destroy units. It's not like they have any shooting (lootas/battlewagon burna boys) or HtH that can handle that (Nob Bikers with FNP)

Virtually all psychic defense is now 24" or less which brings it into to a mass of SB and Psycannon death.

Unless you're Eldar. Psychic defense is Gravy....many competetive armies out there dont even have it....and they still own.

135 pt dreads that can't be shaken or stunned destroys guard and mech eldar - which have only ok counters

Yea, eldar runes are only O.K.

A 20pt marine w/ SB, PW, and a ridiculous amount of special rules out classes most marine armies.

....and you base this on....what exactly? Tournament results?

In the same army you get arguably the best CC abilities, and now all the access to cheap effective special weapons of guard, and close to the best long range anti tank (the best long range anti transport).

Best CC abilities? Thats a laugh, they have good weapons and some psychic buffing....AND A SINGLE ATTACK in many cases. Long Range anti-tank is good...thats obvious. Best? Debatable.

And to top it all off, you can fit in doubles of all of these things in one 1850 list.

Not all of it.

There is no arguement to be made that these guys are underpowered.

The reverse is also true. They're not necessarily OVERpowered either....at least no conclusive evidence to that yet.

Endlessly quoting gets tiring, so I will respond with numbers.
1. Daemons can't choose not to deepstrike. Pod armies can, but have fun walking all your models to where they need to be while you get shot w/ S5 SBs and psycannons, then charges by all PW marines (a lot of which will be I6). DOA BAs are about the only DS based army that isn't completely hosed.
2. Shadow is not a good answer, it has an extremely short range, and is on units GK's can easily take out before nid's get into combat.
3. Lootas are about orks only non CC option. Maybe they will see a resurgance because of this, but all other CC options get owned by the 4+ wound power or the ID power.
4. They did well because even the most abusive powers were limited to 2 or 4 max on expensive platforms. GKs have power at least as insane as anything else and they have them EVERYWHERE
5. Runes will stop fortitude 2/3 of the time, and the 3++ shinanigans, it won't stop the dred from shooting you face off. If with a SFM it's more likely than not going to penetrate any eldar tank it shoots at.
6. Are you telling me a 20pt SB, PW marines with an insane amount of special rules isn't a bit much?
7. I said argueable the best, which is the definition of debateable. But they can mix up cheap and effective CC and shooting options like no army.

I said it's too early to say the sky is falling, but just because you don't want to believe your next project is over the top don't try and convince people it isn't full of unheard of and overly powerful options.

I largely agree with your post, and even with most of this statement, but Paladins look like garbage relative to other options. Yeah, if your opponent does nothing but spray you with bolter fire, Paladins are money, and they do perform better than GKTs against plasma as well. But today's meta heavily features S8+ shooting and Pallies just cost too much for the return you get. I could see some modest inclusion at 2500, possibly, but anything lower and they're just a white elephant.

Oops, I meant Purifiers not Paladins. My bad.

Fetterkey wrote:
Is that a joke? What if they just shoot you with a Manticore? What if they have Vendettas? What if they drive up and melta you? The venerable psyfleman is probably the most overblown unit since SM Vanguard Veterans were first leaked and everyone started freaking out about the prospect of models assaulting out of deepstrike. It is not effective for its points cost, at all-- not only does it waste the stat upgrades provided by the 60 point Venerable upgrade, which are dubiously worth it to begin with, but it uses a more competitive slot than its non-venerable counterpart to boot! I would take 3 normal psyflemen over 2 venerable psyflemen any day, and for a mere 15 point premium I honestly don't know why people would field the Venerable variant.

You're totally underestimating the Ven Dread in a Grey Knight list. What you've posted here would be true, if it was any other list that features Venerables.

You say nothing of the "Venerable" rule here though. Which isnt generally worth much in regular marine lists. Psychic Pilots make Venerables totally worth it in Grey Knight lists. Venerables will generally reduce hits to shaken/stunned. Odds are good that you can keep firing anytime your Armour is compromised.

That's were your extra points come in.

Worth it? Some will say no, some will say yes. I personally think, yes.

Fetterkey wrote:

Therion wrote:I'm with Deadshane on this one. It's way too early to tell but my instinct is that if one codex had to be put up for the pedestal then GK would be the best army in the game now. The army can be built to shoot as hard or nearly as hard as IG while still retaining an incredible amount of special abilities and viable counter-assault capability which the IG doesn't possess.

I couldn't disagree more, Therion-- Coteaz seems almost like a complete red herring for competitive play to me. When BS 3 Henchmen in Chimerae with Psyfleman support go up against BS 4 Veterans in Chimerae with Hydra/Manticore/Vendetta support, it isn't too hard to figure out what will happen.

Dreadnoughts are point by point even better firepower than Hydras, the previous kings of that role. Hydras are still awesome though because they bring the most tanks per point meaning they're quite resilient. Fortitude lessens this difference a bit. In the troops choices however there isn't a competition. 97 points for 3 Meltaguns in a Chimera is always more desirable than 155 points for Veterans with 3 Meltaguns in a Chimera. Why? Because naturally it'll leave more points for additional tanks and units.

Just for numbers comparison, my GK at 1750 points has a combined 50 heavy/special weapons. Many of them are BS4 and/or twin-linked. Some are BS3. My favorite Mech IG list has 57 heavy/special weapons in the same points limit. It has much fewer meltas, no crazy guns like S8 autocannons or psycannons, absolutely zero counter-charge, no power weapons, doesn't block scouts and infiltrates, cannot shoot at deep strikers, doesn't have any psychic defence like the Reinforced Aegis bubbles, and overall only edges out in the amount of tanks department. My GK has 12 vehicles at this limit while my IG has 15. Like I said previously, marginals are small but the GK are simply better overall. Perhaps they're completely equal heads up but against all comers in random terrains and missions? It's not even a hard one to figure out. GK have it.

I'm just going to quote Deadshane who posted after me and also stress the fact that 40K in my opinion is in a state of good enough balance. This means every army can be beaten, but if we're analysing tournament army lists on their own it's impossible for me to agree that IG would be better than the new GK. There's a number of quite problematic opponent/mission/terrain combinations for IG that won't be nearly as challenging for the mech GK.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
I said it's too early to say the sky is falling, but just because you don't want to believe your next project is over the top don't try and convince people it isn't full of unheard of and overly powerful options.

If you want to beleive that the Codex is completely OTT then that's cool. (people say this before the release of EVERY new codex)

If that's what you beleive then all you can do is DEAL WITH IT. People are going to play the codex, there's nothing you can do about it 'cept step your game up.

Me personally, I'm not worried. I'm building the army, that doesnt mean I wont have to face it with my sisters, dark eldar, Orks or whatever army I decide to play.

Step your game up if you're worried...the codex is here, Adapt or Quit playing.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:
Is that a joke? What if they just shoot you with a Manticore? What if they have Vendettas? What if they drive up and melta you? The venerable psyfleman is probably the most overblown unit since SM Vanguard Veterans were first leaked and everyone started freaking out about the prospect of models assaulting out of deepstrike. It is not effective for its points cost, at all-- not only does it waste the stat upgrades provided by the 60 point Venerable upgrade, which are dubiously worth it to begin with, but it uses a more competitive slot than its non-venerable counterpart to boot! I would take 3 normal psyflemen over 2 venerable psyflemen any day, and for a mere 15 point premium I honestly don't know why people would field the Venerable variant.

You're totally underestimating the Ven Dread in a Grey Knight list. What you've posted here would be true, if it was any other list that features Venerables.

You say nothing of the "Venerable" rule here though. Which isnt generally worth much in regular marine lists. Psychic Pilots make Venerables totally worth it in Grey Knight lists. Venerables will generally reduce hits to shaken/stunned. Odds are good that you can keep firing anytime your Armour is compromised.

That's were your extra points come in.

Worth it? Some will say no, some will say yes. I personally think, yes.

The Venerable rule is good. It's not 60 points good. It's definitely not "60 points and an important slot" good. It's absolutely not "60 points and an important slot in an army that already has several units in this role" good.

Therion wrote:Dreadnoughts are points by point even better firepower than Hydras, the previous kings of that role.

Uh, no? Basic psyflemen cost 1.8x as much and have roughly equivalent offensive capabilities-- the extended range, SMF denial, and added heavy bolter of the Hydra sets it on par with the +1 BS and S from the psyfleman-- and venerable psyflemen cost an absurd 2.6x as much and are not much better offensively at all.

Therion wrote:Just for numbers comparison, my GK at 1750 points has a combined 50 heavy/special weapons. Many of them are BS4 and/or twin-linked. Some are BS3. My favorite Mech IG list has 57 heavy/special weapons in the same points limit. It has much fewer meltas, no crazy guns like S8 autocannons or psycannons, absolutely zero counter-charge, no power weapons, doesn't block scouts and infiltrates, cannot shoot at deep strikers, doesn't have any psychic defence like the Reinforced Aegis bubbles, and overall only edges out in the amount of tanks department. My GK has 12 vehicles at this limit while my IG has 15. Like I said previously, marginals are small but the GK are simply better overall. Perhaps they're completely equal heads up but against all comers in random terrains and missions? It's not even a hard one to figure out. GK have it.

That doesn't say anything about the Codex as a whole, just about your lists. Personally, I'd say Hydra autocannons or Manticore launchers are far crazier than the IMO underwhelming psycannon. Against all comers, I think GK ghetto mech IG will be strongly outperformed by actual mech IG. It's a fun way to start up a new force using models that you already have, but ultimately not one that I think will be competitively valid.

Fetterkey wrote:

Uhhh...fetterkey...Psychic Pilot?


Hydra's can be shut down easily.

GK Dreadnoughts are destroyed or are shooting and with a higher str shot at higher BS (first at targets that threaten them, I'm looking at you Vendetta)....and they're 4ft away. 4 feet is all you need rather than the ridiculous and useless what? 72" range? The "no flat out save" feature is nice, granted, but lots of hits at STR 8 easily matches that.

Manticore? Whoopee dooo, you're not ap1...and thats when you hit me dead on 1/3 of the time.

Underpowered GK??? umpfff... LOL...
I've played 2 games with the new dex using a take alla comers list( against Guard and chaos) and won both pretty easily ( a very good luck assisted me against the guard)...

Sincerely, the only problem I've found is the lack of mobility of GK Termies and Paladins ( the only solution is to steal the chimeras of your henchmen)

Servoskulls provide good DS on the objectives ( and the threat of merciless slaughter at the hand of orbital strikes if the enemy approach too much)

Snyper dreddy are 1shot1kill guys against most vehicles

I also assure you that psycannons can tear apart almost everything with ease...

... "in summa" GKs are far from underpowered... they can't have top-tier builds like the hated SW or the Mechguard but ...
For now I tried a "Razorspam/teleportedassault list" and an incredibly funny "Orbital strike spam" list and I assure that even the second one performed pretty well...

What points value are people playing at? I see GKs being signifcantly stronger at 2k vs 1500, but I could be wrong.

Uh, no? Basic psyflemen cost 1.8x as much and have roughly equivalent offensive capabilities-- the extended range, SMF denial, and added heavy bolter of the Hydra sets it on par with the +1 BS and S from the psyfleman-- and venerable psyflemen cost an absurd 2.6x as much and are not much better offensively at all.

Allright stop embarassing yourself now and run the maths point by point. I can already tell you what the result will be: The 135 point Psyrifleman will cause more penetrating hits than 135 points worth of Hydra autocannons against AV11 or AV12, while also remaining somewhat viable against AV13.

That doesn't say anything about the Codex as a whole, just about your lists.

Are you saying my mech GK list is just so good or my mech IG list just so bad? By all means entertain us and post a better mech IG list for 1750 points than the one I described (15 AV12 chassis and 57 heavy/special weapons which includes one Manticore and one PBS).

It's a fun way to start up a new force using models that you already have, but ultimately not one that I think will be competitively valid.

I'm not using any models that I already have. The process of painting three squads of brand new Purifiers has begun and Maelstrom is shipping me Cadian Battle Forces and 6 Chimeras. It seems to be you're implying that my idea for the GK is half-assed and not already metagamed and brainstormed for about 2.5 weeks with quite a few veteran tournament players.

I guess what I said was right and some people just have to see the devastation at a couple tournaments themselves before they realise what's up.

Deadshane1 wrote:Uhhh...fetterkey...Psychic Pilot?

Psychic Pilot is decent, and synergizes well with Venerable. However, it's not the be-all end-all, and normal GK Dreadnoughts have it too. When you get right down to it paying almost 150% as much for no real increase in offensive power is not at all worth it, except perhaps in lists that really really want to incorporate Dreadknights. Don't get me wrong, 2-3 Psyflemen will probably be standard-- but taking more than that is risky business indeed in competitive play, so I think the Venerable Psyflemen won't be hitting the table as often as some people might want to think.

Fetterkey wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Uhhh...fetterkey...Psychic Pilot?

Psychic Pilot is decent, and synergizes well with Venerable. However, it's not the be-all end-all, and normal GK Dreadnoughts have it too. When you get right down to it paying almost 150% as much for no real increase in offensive power is not at all worth it, except perhaps in lists that really really want to incorporate Dreadknights. Don't get me wrong, 2-3 Psyflemen will probably be standard-- but taking more than that is risky business indeed in competitive play, so I think the Venerable Psyflemen won't be hitting the table as often as some people might want to think.

Ven does give it more offensive power. After a few turns you are probably going to be down some dreads, vens have an much higher chance of still being alive. More turns shooting = more offense.

Deadshane1, the only issue with your statement is manticores. Manticores take away the dreads save entirely in your scenario AND get rear s5 damage on the rhino with 2d6 ordnance pen as a bonus.

So manticores can shut them down quite easily.

Fetterkey wrote:
Psychic Pilot is decent,

Decent?

If there's anything "overpowered" about this dex...this is it. The closest we've come to it in the game is Machine Spirit...which really doesnt compare.

Shooting till a unit is shaken and moving on to the next target is a fundamental tactic that any shooty army player has learned here in 5th.

Psychic pilot almost totally invalidates that tactic. Hell, it invalidates almost the entire Dark Eldar army if you're running a mechanised GK list.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

DevianID wrote:So manticores can shut them down quite easily.

Again, you cannot "shut down" GK vehicles.

You can destroy them...or not. Chances are, if you do not destroy them, they will be fighting at full effect next turn.

If there's anything "overpowered" about this dex...this is it. The closest we've come to it in the game is Machine Spirit...which really doesnt compare.

It's great but Cleansing Flame is easily the single most 'overpowered' thing in this book. Come on. Some close combat specialists can't even assault 5man squads of shooty Purifiers, and all sorts of slowed situations might arise. For example, 3 surviving Purifiers from 3 different squads assault a unit of 20 Genestealers/30 Orks/whatever. Boom. Hit by MatWardFlame and dead before anyone even swings.

Psychic pilot almost totally invalidates that tactic. Hell, it invalidates almost the entire Dark Eldar army if you're running a mechanised GK list.

Chimeras and other tanks en masse already invalidate Dark Eldar. The rest of the stuff just makes the situation completely hilarious.

Psychic pilot decent??? LOL... It's the only thing in the dex that I thinck is incrediblu Overpowered (or undercosted)...
And about the low model count... well... 2 shooting phases and your model count will surpass your adversary's one...

Deadshane1 wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:
Psychic Pilot is decent,

Decent?

If there's anything "overpowered" about this dex...this is it. The closest we've come to it in the game is Machine Spirit...which really doesnt compare.

Shooting till a unit is shaken and moving on to the next target is a fundamental tactic that any shooty army player has learned here in 5th.

Psychic pilot almost totally invalidates that tactic. Hell, it invalidates almost the entire Dark Eldar army if you're running a mechanised GK list.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

DevianID wrote:So manticores can shut them down quite easily.

Again, you cannot "shut down" GK vehicles.

You can destroy them...or not. Chances are, if you do not destroy them, they will be fighting at full effect next turn.

I'll have to agree with one point, that psychic pilot (fortitude) is the biggest gem in this book. Relatively "un supressable" firepower is hard to visualize on paper, but on the board I feel it's going to be the game changer out of the book.

I still don't think venerable dreads are worth it with riflemen setups, you've already got that on your heavies, you pay far more, and although you gain in defense, you gain nothing in offense (as has been mentioned by fetterkey). The only way I'd run a venerable is behind the forward advance of rhinos/chimeras/whatever you chose as transports. A bs 5 multimelta, with a cover save on a venerable, that can also get in combat and mess things up, and provides reinforced aegis to your main line...is good.

Although I'm currently using elite purifiers over Ven's, I feel they're basically equal in power level (and in price oddly enough), and are both solid choices.

It's a 50/50 to have meaningful impact on the damage table. If you knock one or both weapons off you cut a Psydread's offensive output down to either manageable or nil. Glances are virtually assured to do nothing significant to a Ven Dread, though, I'll give you that.

And a lot hinges on the use of Fortitude. The Ld10 psyhood will be very much in vogue in IG armies (esp considering that it was already) and cutting Fortitude successes by about 40% is actually a pretty big nuke to the Psyfleman gunline.

I think coteaz alone makes this army anything other than underpowered. Until we get an FAQ, there is a lot in the book that could go from good to bad or vice versa, but even with coteaz only granting 4 henchmen squads max he is still fantastic.

Eldar are a Psychic heavy army with units with all melta guns and all power weapons but there high cost and low number means most of the time they lose.

Plus there is no way the GK army could be as OP as the BA. army wide FNP for next to no point is bull%^*( and flying Dreads, Rhinos, Preads, str 10 lords.

i think it will be fun to play GK, it's about time they got an update as the last codex was the most underpowered codex i have seen to date.

in a game with my friend. he charged 5 GK into a grot unit of 30 with a slaver with a powerklaw the grots won

He stoped playing GK after that game

Therion wrote:

Uh, no? Basic psyflemen cost 1.8x as much and have roughly equivalent offensive capabilities-- the extended range, SMF denial, and added heavy bolter of the Hydra sets it on par with the +1 BS and S from the psyfleman-- and venerable psyflemen cost an absurd 2.6x as much and are not much better offensively at all.

Allright stop embarassing yourself now and run the maths point by point. I can already tell you what the result will be: The 135 point Psyrifleman will cause more penetrating hits than 135 points worth of Hydra autocannons against AV11 or AV12, while also remaining somewhat viable against AV13.

You are not only using bad metrics, you are wrong even under those metrics. Each Hydra gets 4 BS3 TL S7 shots for 75 points; each Psyfleman gets 4 BS4 TL S8 shots for 135 points; each Venerable Psyfleman gets 4 BS5 TL S8 shots for 195 points.


Hydra vs. AV 11: 3 hits, 1 pen
Psyfleman vs. AV 11: 3.5556 hits, 1.7778 pens
Venerable Psyfleman vs. AV 11: 3.8888 hits, 1.9444 pens

Hydra scores one pen per 75 points, Psyfleman scores one pen per 75.94 points, Venerable Psyfleman scores one pen per 100.29 points. The Hydra does slightly more damage per point, even without factoring in its ability to ignore Skimmers Moving Fast (which makes it twice as good in comparison to the other two against the appropriate targets in most cases), its heavy bolter, or its increased range.


Hydra vs. AV 12: 3 hits, .5 pens
Psyfleman vs. AV 12: 3.5556 hits, 1.1852 pens
Venerable Psyfleman vs. AV 12: 3.8888 hits, 1.2963 pens

Hydra scores one pen per 150 points, Psyfleman scores one pen per 113.90 points, Venerable Psyfleman scores one pen per 150.43 points. The Psyfleman is the most efficient here against AV 12 targets by far, though the Hydra is still more efficient than the Venerable Psyfleman. However, that's because Hydras aren't for targeting AV 12 vehicles, and IG have another-- better-- tool for dealing with those targets, namely:

Vendetta vs. AV 12: 2.25 hits, 1.125 pens

Vendetta scores one pen per 115.56 points, making it very slightly worse than the Psyfleman. This is made up for by:


Vendetta vs. AV 13: 2.25 hits, 0.75 pens
Psyfleman vs. AV 13: 3.5556 hits, 0.5926 pens
Venerable Psyfleman vs. AV 13: 3.8888 hits, 0.6481 pens

Vendetta scores one pen per 173.33 points, Psyfleman scores one pen per 227.81 points, Venerable Psyfleman scores one pen per 300.88 points. One might point out that this isn't a particularly fair comparison, because Psyflemen aren't for AV 13-- but you could (and indeed should) say the same about Hydras and AV 12.


Note also that relying only on penetrating hits is a really bad metric because it doesn't take practical considerations into account-- the more standard immobilize/wreck paradigm is far more valid, but Hydras (surprise, surprise) perform even better under it, so maybe that's why you didn't use it. Also, note that even under your bad metric, the Venerable Psyfleman is less efficient than the Hydra against literally everything that the Hydra can pen.

Therion wrote:It seems to be you're implying that my idea for the GK is half-assed

Correct.

Therion wrote:I guess what I said was right and some people just have to see the devastation at a couple tournaments themselves before they realise what's up.

I'll be happy to change my mind if, a year from now, ghetto IG GK lists are tearing up the top tables at competitive events, but I really, *really* don't see that happening. At best I think they'll have a good short-run performance before people start figuring out that they're nothing special and that real mech IG plays that game better. Restricting Henchmen to 3 special weapons was a great balance move that prevented this list from being the be-all end-all.

but even with coteaz only granting 4 henchmen squads max he is still fantastic.

To me the chances or that happening are less than 1%.

Lord of Formosa: Inquisitorial Henchmen warbands are Troops choices in an army that includes Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz, and are not limited by the number of Inquisitors in your army.

The most likely result will be that the above rule will completely override the generic rule with Henchman warbands, which states:

For each Inquisitor in your army, you may also include a unit of 3-12 henchmen, chosen in any combination from those shown. This unit does not use up a force organisation slot.

I'm very certain the result in any FAQ will be that an army can have a maximum of 6 Henchman warbands chosen as Troops choices, and a minimum of 2 Troops choices which can naturally both be Henchman warbands. The only other interpretation that makes any sense would be to somehow combine the two rules and say there can be an infinite amount of Henchman warbands, which still count towards the minimum 2 Troops choices because of the simple RAW fact that 'not using up a force organisation slot' does not make you not count towards compulsory Troops choices.

The manticore point could probably be reiterated.

You can still reduce your BS from the scatter distance if you fire indirectly, as long as you have LOS. Each pie that scatters forward will end up nailing the razorback, and ones that hit or only drift 1-2 inches will get a strength 10 ordnance hit with no cover on the dread, and a strength 5 ordnance hit on the razorback. Now, of course you'll have to roll a permanent result that isn't an immobilize, and you should probably buy a witch hunter psychic hood to try and make those stuns stick, and to try not to let the direct fire you will also have in the army shoot into shrouded dreads.

Its not a silver bullet, I just felt like it bears repeating, because it stands as an excellent example of an adjustment being made (from hydras to manticores) in order to counter-act the power of a new threat to the metagame.

Fortitude is VERY good. i have played with it over a half a dozen times. It makes people shoot at vehicles until they are dead, rather than just firing until a shaken result, then moving on. Even if you never get a chance to use it, it still results in you getting to shoot with significantly more shots than you would without it.

Getting cover while retaining LOS on shooty dreadnoughts is VERY easy. And even without shrouding, a constant 4+ cover save is an issue. People have serious problems with vendettas, who only have that 4+ cover for one turn, and can be reliably shaken. The dreadnought costs the same points as the vendetta.

Correct.

This just became fun You label the 20-30 hours of metagame and armybuilding 'work' that multiple tournament veterans and GT winners have put into this half-assed based on what exactly? Your opinion?

Now, since you smartly ignored my request earlier, put your money where your mouth is and post an IG list better than what I described. Additionally, you deftly ignored my entire post where I showed that IG lack important abilities the GK don't lack and are universally less versatile as a tournament army. Tournament data from major events shows IG to be if anything less succesful overall than for example Space Wolves or more recently even Blood Angels.

To me it wasn't ever in question (in this thread) that GK are a better army than IG overall, but the interesting fact was that they put a similar or better amount of firepower to the table while playing phases and possessing abilities that the IG don't have. The fact that you even brought up Venerable Dreadnoughts and Vendettas to the discussion, neither having ever been mentioned by me in my posts, just shows how desperate you are. I wouldn't use Venerable Dreadnoughts with GK simply because double psycannon Purifiers with Razorbacks are much more versatile.

Your own math, which I haven't bothered to double check, proves that the Dreadnought outshoots the Hydras against AV12, meaning in the very specific GK vs IG matchup that everyone was talking about. Thank you. The fact that the Dreadnought does this for a shooty/assault hybrid army while also being immune to shakes and stuns and providing effective psychic defence and having unbelievably easy access to non-stop 4+ cover saves is incredible to say the least.

I really, *really* don't see that happening

I really couldn't see most of the best mech IG players in the world getting beat non-stop by double Land Raiders, Genestealer hordes and Space Wolves of all shapes and sizes at the ETC last time around either, but it happened. Mech IG isn't all that hard to figure out and really has a lot of holes that can be blown right open with the right tools. GK simply have less holes and more tools. Once you get out of your basement and get playing to the real world you'll 'see this happening'.

Deadshane1 wrote: Adapt or Quit playing.

The point is some armies can't adapt. They simply don't have the tools and codex options to deal with the army crushing abilities of the G/Ks. Maybe the abilities are worse on paper than they are in game. I hope so, otherwise I think GKs are going to do for 40k what daemons did for fantasy. It's no fun when 2/3s of the tournament armies are all the same book.

EDIT: Updated with Less Heresy (tm)

Therion wrote:To me it wasn't ever in question that GK are a better army than IG overall

That's where you went wrong. Motivated cognition, anyone?

Therion wrote:The fact that you even brought up Venerable Dreadnoughts and Vendettas to the discussion, neither having never been mentioned by me in my posts, just shows how desperate you are.

Or it shows that I'm trying to draw a more complete picture of the situation?

Therion wrote:I wouldn't use Venerable Dreadnoughts with GK simply because double psycannon Purifiers with Razorbacks are much more versatile.

Agreed, but I'd probably go Rhino instead of Razorback there.

Therion wrote:Mech IG isn't all that hard to figure out and really has a lot of holes that can be blown right open with the right tools. GK simply have less holes and more tools.

That may be true-- it's too early to tell at this stage-- but when GK ape mech IG without the help of Hydras, Manticores, Vendettas, Veteran squads, or bubblewrap units, they open up the same holes but without the same tools. On the plus side, you won't auto-lose to Dark Eldar like a lot of the Grey Knight builds that I've been seeing, but on the minus side, IG don't really sweat Dark Eldar too much either...

I will stand by my opinion. The standard GK is indeed powerful but if you get enamored with all the "bright shiny" options it will fall apart. Field a 200+ point character, add in a couple 200 pt + baby carriers then get enamored with shiny paladins for 300 points and now you are talking about 1100 points in troop choices. Add in about Make them about 300 points per squad and you have 30 wounds out there with a majority of 3+ AC. That is not going to last too long against long fang ML spam or vulkan flamer heaven. While I would salivate for units with 3+ AC, T4 and a base weapon that is S5 ROF2 out to 24", it does come at a cost and you need to have a solid basis for your army.

Unbalance your force with the pretty shiney stuff, and you opponent will ignore it all and go for your troop choices. Great you have 10 or so pain in the a$$es but if you have no troop choices, you will lose every game based on inability to control any objectives.

I'm really surprised at all of the people underestimating the Ork codex. Sure, it doesn't have a particularly good counter to these godly purifiers in melee- but should you even try to engage intact purifier squads that way?

Killa Kans, or even the lowly Deffdread can have a wonderful time with them in melee. Ghaz on his rampage can counterassault if they get too close to your lines.

For all of that, the ever overlooked MANZ has a decent chance. Puriflame will only yield 1 or 2 hits, and an equal number of MANZ to a purifier squad will take about 3 deaths to melee if the manz charge. 10 attacks, 5 hits, 3 wounds, ID. If they charge, it goes to 15a, 8h, 4wounds, ID. Then the Manz hit back from being charged and flamed- 18 attacks, 9 hits, 8 wounds. 8 purifiers down, the flames once more won't land a wound, 4 attacks from the remainder, 2 wounds, ID, and the 3 surviving MANZ wrap things up. It isn't a clean solution, but it would work if you really needed it to.

Sure, it is overkill- but I didn't even add in the BW hits, or their shoota shots! And remember- if using force isn't working, then you're not using enough of it.

With so many other toys in the GK army, it just seems unlikely that someone will go all purifier- and if they do, then lootas will be unmolested while they stack saves on the 3+ armor folks.

The question I would have is how you are advancing shrouded----if you don't play with Land Raiders.

AgeOfEgos wrote:The question I would have is how you are advancing shrouded----if you don't play with Land Raiders.

From what has been said, the Librarian can sit in a Chimera.

Therion wrote:Once you get out of your basement and get playing to the real world you'll 'see this happening'.

Unnecessary. Just because someone doesn't agree with your "20-30 hours of metagame and armybuilding 'work' that multiple tournament veterans and GT winners" doesn't mean that they don't have a point and aren't worthy of having a mature discussion with.

At least Fetterkey gave figures as to why he believes what he does rather than personally attacking the other person with emoticons and anecdotal evidence.

puma713 wrote:Unnecessary. Just because someone doesn't agree with your "20-30 hours of metagame and armybuilding 'work' that multiple tournament veterans and GT winners" doesn't mean that they don't have a point and aren't worthy of having a mature discussion with.

At least Fetterkey gave figures as to why he believes what he does rather than personally attacking the other person with emoticons and anecdotal evidence.

Therion subscribes to the Imperial school of argument.

A logical argument must be dismissed with absolute conviction!

Fetterkey wrote:You are not only using bad metrics, you are wrong even under those metrics. Each Hydra gets 4 BS3 TL S7 shots for 75 points; each Psyfleman gets 4 BS4 TL S8 shots for 135 points; each Venerable Psyfleman gets 4 BS5 TL S8 shots for 195 points.


Hydra vs. AV 11: 3 hits, 1 pen
Psyfleman vs. AV 11: 3.5556 hits, 1.7778 pens
Venerable Psyfleman vs. AV 11: 3.8888 hits, 1.9444 pens

Hydra scores one pen per 75 points, Psyfleman scores one pen per 75.94 points, Venerable Psyfleman scores one pen per 100.29 points. The Hydra does slightly more damage per point, even without factoring in its ability to ignore Skimmers Moving Fast (which makes it twice as good in comparison to the other two against the appropriate targets in most cases), its heavy bolter, or its increased range.


Hydra vs. AV 12: 3 hits, .5 pens
Psyfleman vs. AV 12: 3.5556 hits, 1.1852 pens
Venerable Psyfleman vs. AV 12: 3.8888 hits, 1.2963 pens

Hydra scores one pen per 150 points, Psyfleman scores one pen per 113.90 points, Venerable Psyfleman scores one pen per 150.43 points. The Psyfleman is the most efficient here against AV 12 targets by far, though the Hydra is still more efficient than the Venerable Psyfleman. However, that's because Hydras aren't for targeting AV 12 vehicles, and IG have another-- better-- tool for dealing with those targets, namely:

Vendetta vs. AV 12: 2.25 hits, 1.125 pens

Vendetta scores one pen per 115.56 points, making it very slightly worse than the Psyfleman. This is made up for by:


Vendetta vs. AV 13: 2.25 hits, 0.75 pens
Psyfleman vs. AV 13: 3.5556 hits, 0.5926 pens
Venerable Psyfleman vs. AV 13: 3.8888 hits, 0.6481 pens

Vendetta scores one pen per 173.33 points, Psyfleman scores one pen per 227.81 points, Venerable Psyfleman scores one pen per 300.88 points. One might point out that this isn't a particularly fair comparison, because Psyflemen aren't for AV 13-- but you could (and indeed should) say the same about Hydras and AV 12.

Unless any of the Guard vehicles are stunned/shaken, in which case they're doing nothing.

Meanwhile the Dreads still fire at full effect.....that makes up your points...in spades.

A logical argument must be dismissed with absolute conviction!

Thanks for your charts mate. They were excellent.

As far as his argument was concerned, there was no logic in it. He ignored 90% of what I said and tried to argue from the position where we have an open table, no mission and all that the GK have is Rifleman Dreadnoughts of two variants and if the Vendettas and Hydras can outshoot or match their firepower my argument that the Grey Knights are a more powerful and more flexible tournament army is invalid. That aspect is the only part of the game the IG even competes in.

Therion wrote:Once you get out of your basement and get playing to the real world you'll 'see this happening'.

Comments like this really don't help.

It's much better for all concerned if we could stick to being polite, and respecting what others are saying even whilst disagreeing with them. The put downs and digs don't do anything except put people's backs up and foster an atmosphere that we'd really rather avoid on the site.

Much obliged.

Dreadnought FTW.

I'll be on Vassal 2nite.

C you there.

I said this before when they came out with the new dex, awesome nemesis force weapons and jump packs, and termie troops aside, its going to cost a lot of points, sure you can jump an entire troop across the field and take the objective, but what kind of support are they going to have? They have to rely on some termies in the back to lay down enough fire to keep them from getting chopped to bits? or the Dreadknight? So often with their army lists your going to be throwing all your eggs into one basket its going to be very hard to try and deversify and get a balanced army together. your either going to go with one superbadass group of super-ultra-mega-nob-veterans or your going to get a thin coating of all the different elements of an army, IMHO.

Therion wrote:As far as his argument was concerned, there was no logic in it. He ignored 90% of what I said and tried to argue from the position where we have an open table, no mission and all that the GK have is Rifleman Dreadnoughts of two variants and if the Vendettas and Hydras can outshoot or match their firepower my argument that the Grey Knights are a more powerful and more flexible tournament army is invalid. That aspect is the only part of the game the IG even competes in.

Your point that GK are "a more powerful and more flexible tournament army" can't be settled at present, so I focused instead on addressing the elements of your argument that were grounded in objective fact instead of supposition. We could continue saying "IG > Coteaz builds!" "No, Coteaz is more flexible!" for quite some time, but until we have a solid period of post-adaptation competitive tournament results to draw from that can't really be proven either way.

For what's it worth, the data indicates to me that GK will not have a problem keeping up in the long range anti tank department with IG.

Psyflemen seem like a better buy than vendettas to me, and this is coming from an exclusively IG and GK player.

Hydras however seem on par with Psyflemen, in the sense that their increased firepower makes up for decreased resilience and mobility, which is not a huge concern in an IG list with many AV12 hulls, but which is a concern for a GK army with less AVs and more required mobility. Each unit suits the list it is in well.

However the venerable Psyfleman... it has no excuse for me. The ability to avoid penetrating death 1/3 of the time and to avoid meddlesome glancing immob/wep destroy 1/3 of the time does not merit a 45% increase in cost. The 9% increase in firepower from BS5 is laughable. The fact that they compete with purifiers, vindicares, and paladins rather than lackluster Heavy choices is the nail in the coffin. I would not take a Ven Psyfleman.

Gitzbitah wrote:
For all of that, the ever overlooked MANZ has a decent chance. Puriflame will only yield 1 or 2 hits, and an equal number of MANZ to a purifier squad will take about 3 deaths to melee if the manz charge. 10 attacks, 5 hits, 3 wounds, ID. If they charge, it goes to 15a, 8h, 4wounds, ID. Then the Manz hit back from being charged and flamed- 18 attacks, 9 hits, 8 wounds. 8 purifiers down, the flames once more won't land a wound, 4 attacks from the remainder, 2 wounds, ID, and the 3 surviving MANZ wrap things up. It isn't a clean solution, but it would work if you really needed it to.

So six meganobz, that are more expensive than the 5 purifiers, win combat? No way! In fact, now that I look closer at your post, you seem to imply that the meganobz kill 8 purifiers the first round, but you've only calculated the purifier damage output for 5. That should be 6 ID wounds, 8 if the purifiers are charging. Doesn't seem as good anymore, does it?

For what's it worth, the data indicates to me that GK will not have a problem keeping up in the long range anti tank department with IG.

This is what I've been trying to argue, while also reminding that while the GK keep up with the IG firepower they also possess special abilities and extra flexibilities that the IG simply don't have at all, allowing me at this point call them a better tournament army. In my first post I already stressed that the marginals are small and that I wouldn't like to label any army like that but if one had to be put up to that pedestal then it had to be GK.

ph34r wrote:For what's it worth, the data indicates to me that GK will not have a problem keeping up in the long range anti tank department with IG.

Except against things like russes, land raiders, and monoliths. Guard still have much better tools to deal with those things.

A list with more than two of the psydreads is going to be a very hard fight for guard, but an easier fight for other armies. Long fangs will beat the out in the ranged game. They won't be able to stop raiders and all the nastiness inside, and lots of units will destroy them in CC. Normal rifleman are difficult for guard and SMs have been able to take 6 of them for years but noone does because 4 AP4 shots doesn't do much once the rhinos are all blown up. I think a G/K player would be stupid not to have one, probably two, much more than that I think isn't ideal. Very very good against guard, but honestly guard is falling out of favor where I am at for SWs and BAs. You need to build well rounded armies and spamming these guys isn't it.

Therion wrote:

For what's it worth, the data indicates to me that GK will not have a problem keeping up in the long range anti tank department with IG.

This is what I've been trying to argue, while also reminding that while the GK keep up with the IG firepower they also possess special abilities and extra flexibilities that the IG simply don't have at all, allowing me at this point call them a better tournament army. In my first post I already stressed that the marginals are small and that I wouldn't like to label any army like that but if one had to be put up to that pedestal then it had to be GK.

GK can match IG on LRAT. Also, GK have things that IG don't have. I don't think that was ever in question.

You are forgetting that IG have things that GK don't have:
-demo vets
-power blobs
-manticores
-plasmacutioners
-orders
-special weapon PCS/CCS
-PBS
-rough riders
-etc.

Judging them as a "better" tournament army that this point is meaningless.

Therion wrote:

For what's it worth, the data indicates to me that GK will not have a problem keeping up in the long range anti tank department with IG.

This is what I've been trying to argue, while also reminding that while the GK keep up with the IG firepower they also possess special abilities and extra flexibilities that the IG simply don't have at all, allowing me at this point call them a better tournament army. In my first post I already stressed that the marginals are small and that I wouldn't like to label any army like that but if one had to be put up to that pedestal then it had to be GK.

Yeah but to keep up with guard you really need to invest most of your points in shooting, if not all. And then all the other "abilities" disappear. If you have options that are point for point equal or slightly better, but I have 100% invested in shooting and you have 50%, I'll still win the shooting game. I'm not saying G/Ks aren't great, I think they are over the top, but a GK that tries to get into a pissing contest with guard is going to suffer immensely against other armies.

Agreed on all counts.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

ph34r wrote:For what's it worth, the data indicates to me that GK will not have a problem keeping up in the long range anti tank department with IG.

Except against things like russes, land raiders, and monoliths. Guard still have much better tools to deal with those things.

....for which they have other tools. Unless they decide to simplyl glance them to shut them up.

Landraiders/russes=Borked once they're 24" or less away. (by psycannons & Henchmen Melta)

Monolith=who shoots at monoliths? Fine, I'll shoot at it....with possibly one of the best weapons TO shoot at it with in the game. Get up there and hit it with Warp Rift....byebye.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ph34r wrote:

Therion wrote:

For what's it worth, the data indicates to me that GK will not have a problem keeping up in the long range anti tank department with IG.

This is what I've been trying to argue, while also reminding that while the GK keep up with the IG firepower they also possess special abilities and extra flexibilities that the IG simply don't have at all, allowing me at this point call them a better tournament army. In my first post I already stressed that the marginals are small and that I wouldn't like to label any army like that but if one had to be put up to that pedestal then it had to be GK.

GK can match IG on LRAT. Also, GK have things that IG don't have. I don't think that was ever in question.

You are forgetting that IG have things that GK don't have:
-demo vets
-power blobs
-manticores
-plasmacutioners
-orders
-special weapon PCS/CCS
-PBS
-rough riders
-etc.

Judging them as a "better" tournament army that this point is meaningless.

You forgot Ogryns

Yeah but to keep up with guard you really need to invest most of your points in shooting, if not all. And then all the other "abilities" disappear

Incorrect. 1750 points example:

HQ
-Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz: 100p
-Inquisitor, 2 Servo Skulls: 31p
ELITES
-5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Razorback, Psybolts, TL HB: 190p
-5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Razorback, Psybolts, TL HB: 190p
-5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Razorback, Lascannon, TL Plasma Guns: 220p
TROOPS
-3 Servitors, 3 Multi-Meltas, 2 Warriors, 2 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 113p
-3 Servitors, 3 Multi-Meltas, 2 Warriors, 2 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 113p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
HEAVY SUPPORT
-Dreadnought, Psybolts, 2 TL Autocannons: 135p
-Dreadnought, Psybolts, 2 TL Autocannons: 135p
-Dreadnought, Psybolts, 2 TL Autocannons: 135p

50 heavy/specials.

Deadshane1 wrote:You forgot Ogryns

I try to forget that unit exists.

Therion wrote:

Yeah but to keep up with guard you really need to invest most of your points in shooting, if not all. And then all the other "abilities" disappear

Incorrect. 1750 points example:

HQ
-Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz: 100p
-Inquisitor, 2 Servo Skulls: 31p
ELITES
-5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Razorback, Psybolts, TL HB: 190p
-5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Razorback, Psybolts, TL HB: 190p
-5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Razorback, Lascannon, TL Plasma Guns: 220p
TROOPS
-3 Servitors, 3 Multi-Meltas, 2 Warriors, 2 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 113p
-3 Servitors, 3 Multi-Meltas, 2 Warriors, 2 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 113p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
HEAVY SUPPORT
-Dreadnought, Psybolts, 2 TL Autocannons: 135p
-Dreadnought, Psybolts, 2 TL Autocannons: 135p
-Dreadnought, Psybolts, 2 TL Autocannons: 135p

50 heavy/specials.

That army's bark is much worse than it's bite. And you have created bascially an all shooting army like I said. All you have is 15 S4 PW attacks, and the rest is guard redux. All the armies that are going to rock guard will rock this one just the same.

And the mech-hench list dissolves even more quickly out of transport, while its "in effective range" firepower is BS3 rather than BS4.

That armies bark is much worse than it's bite. And you have created bascially an all shooting army like I said. All you have is 15 S4 PW attacks, and the rest is guard redux. All the armies that are going to rock guard will rock this one just the same.

Is that so? Servo skulls, I've been expecting you, Spy Network, 3x Cleansing Flame, Psychic Pilots, Aura of Faith, Aegis, Reinforced Aegis, force weapons on demand etc don't count for anything? If you've taken that all into consideration and still claim that then I can't say anything else except wait and see.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

Therion wrote:

Yeah but to keep up with guard you really need to invest most of your points in shooting, if not all. And then all the other "abilities" disappear

Incorrect. 1750 points example:

HQ
-Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz: 100p
-Inquisitor, 2 Servo Skulls: 31p
ELITES
-5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Razorback, Psybolts, TL HB: 190p
-5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Razorback, Psybolts, TL HB: 190p
-5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Razorback, Lascannon, TL Plasma Guns: 220p
TROOPS
-3 Servitors, 3 Multi-Meltas, 2 Warriors, 2 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 113p
-3 Servitors, 3 Multi-Meltas, 2 Warriors, 2 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 113p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
HEAVY SUPPORT
-Dreadnought, Psybolts, 2 TL Autocannons: 135p
-Dreadnought, Psybolts, 2 TL Autocannons: 135p
-Dreadnought, Psybolts, 2 TL Autocannons: 135p

50 heavy/specials.

That army's bark is much worse than it's bite. And you have created bascially an all shooting army like I said. All you have is 15 S4 PW attacks, and the rest is guard redux. All the armies that are going to rock guard will rock this one just the same.

Wow......speechless. I suppose footdar will teach it a lesson eh?

Wow......speechless.

Thanks It's only my starting point, the setting that I've ordered models and stuff for. Then I'll start adjusting it and see if the 22 meltas etc. is the correct amount or if I can add something else.

Therion wrote:

That armies bark is much worse than it's bite. And you have created bascially an all shooting army like I said. All you have is 15 S4 PW attacks, and the rest is guard redux. All the armies that are going to rock guard will rock this one just the same.

Is that so? Servo skulls, I've been expecting you, Spy Network, 3x Cleansing Flame, Psychic Pilots, Aura of Faith, force weapons on demand etc don't count for anything? If you've taken that all into consideration and still claim that then I can't say anything else except wait and see.

You do have a few new tricks, but from a guard army of similar size you lose:
Any real anti horde shooting
Any heavy anti tank shooting (what amounts to assault cannons in a unit of 5 marines is not that tough)
Any ability to negate cover
Any ability to negate LOS
Any reliable shooting AP
Any abililty to move more than 12" (unless purifiers have to 30" thing, but I don't think they do, even so 15 T4 3+ models is not hard to deal with)
Any ability to attack LD characteristics & multiply your force
And orders
Not mention you have no ablitive wounds so every casualty eats into special weapons and expensive models.

I'm not saying it isn't good, but > guard I'm not sold on. Guard redux at best.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

Therion wrote:

That armies bark is much worse than it's bite. And you have created bascially an all shooting army like I said. All you have is 15 S4 PW attacks, and the rest is guard redux. All the armies that are going to rock guard will rock this one just the same.

Is that so? Servo skulls, I've been expecting you, Spy Network, 3x Cleansing Flame, Psychic Pilots, Aura of Faith, force weapons on demand etc don't count for anything? If you've taken that all into consideration and still claim that then I can't say anything else except wait and see.

You do have a few new tricks, but from a guard army of similar size you lose:
Any real anti horde shooting
flamer on every Chimera, Psycannon, autocannon?
Any heavy anti tank shooting (what amounts to assault cannons in a unit of 5 marines is not that tough)
6x Multimeltas? Autocannons again. Meltaguns
Any ability to negate cover
who needs it?
Any ability to negate LOS
again, unneeded with this much firepower
Any reliable shooting AP
rending? Meltaguns?
Any abililty to move more than 12" (unless purifiers have to 30" thing, but I don't think they do, even so 15 T4 3+ models is not hard to deal with)disembark, kill everything?
Not mention you have no ablitive wounds so every casualty eats into special weapons and expensive models. interesting, every single model has a special weapon and you've managed to turn that into a disadvantage.

I'm not saying it isn't good, but > guard I'm not sold on. Guard redux at best.

What the.....? Losing any semblance of credibility at lightning speed here.

Deadshane1 wrote: I suppose footdar will teach it a lesson eh?

No, but a Green Tide might. Or Stealer Shock with Catalyst. But, Footdar might not do so bad either.

Deadshane1 wrote:flamer on every Chimera, Psycannon, autocannon?

Yeah, most horde players I know don't know how to deal with mass heavy flamers at all. They usually clump up. Sometimes they do it in cone-shapes.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
You do have a few new tricks, but from a guard army of similar size you lose:
Any real anti horde shooting
Any heavy anti tank shooting (what amounts to assault cannons in a unit of 5 marines is not that tough)
Any ability to negate cover
Any ability to negate LOS
Any reliable shooting AP
Any abililty to move more than 12" (unless purifiers have to 30" thing, but I don't think they do, even so 15 T4 3+ models is not hard to deal with)
Any ability to attack LD characteristics & multiply your force
And orders
Not mention you have no ablitive wounds so every casualty eats into special weapons and expensive models.

I'm not saying it isn't good, but > guard I'm not sold on. Guard redux at best.

I agree with some of ArtfcllyFlvrd's assessments. Manticores and Medusae would have ball with all those chimeras, making a lot of 3-man footslogging units with 12" assault, or 24" heavy weapons. And the only weapon that can deal with them at range would be the Dreadnoughts. Make sure you grab a WH Inquisitor as well to mess with Fortitude. A decent list, yes (based on opinion), but not without flaws.

Course, he did say this was his initial template, not his set-in-stone tourney list.

Deadshane1 wrote:
What the.....? Losing any semblance of credibility at lightning speed here.

You have no blast weaponry. I play mech gaurd w/ chimera heavy flamers. The 6" move + 8" template is not very good. It's better than nothing, but it gets you closer to the enemy and almost always prevents you from firing your multi laser

And psycannons are not a good horde weapon. 4 shots ~3 hits ~2-3 wounds = 1 dead ork in cover. Your 20pt psycannon will make it's points back on turn 4 after the orks have Whaaged in your face and ignored your flamers range.

Again, not saying the army is bad, but I definetly don't think this is the best list that can be made out of the book.

puma713 wrote:
Yeah, most horde players I know don't know how to deal with mass heavy flamers at all. They usually clump up. Sometimes they do it in cone-shapes.

The good mech players dont NEED you to oblige them...they'll force it with creative tank shocking.

Cute comeback though.

Deadshane1 wrote:

puma713 wrote:
Yeah, most horde players I know don't know how to deal with mass heavy flamers at all. They usually clump up. Sometimes they do it in cone-shapes.

The good mech players dont NEED you to oblige them...they'll force it with creative tank shocking.

Cute comeback though.

Thanks.

Actually, I think ArtfcllyFlvrd's point was that certain mech builds stop the Horde before you're forced to use your 8", close-encounter, hull-mounted weapon to stop them. And after you've used them to kill I dunno, 60 or so of the 180 Boyz that are in front of you, then you can deal with the other 120 that you couldn't deal with at range.

Edit: Anyway, I was just lurking. I didn't want to get caught up in this, "my listbuilding is better than yours!" manhood-measuring, but it seems I got 'tangled' up in it anyway. "We'll See" is what I'm taking away from the conversation.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

You do have a few new tricks, but from a guard army of similar size you lose:
Any real anti horde shooting There should be a heavy flamer on each Chimera hull, and there's a huge pile of high ROF weapons (heavy 4 Psycannons, 6 TL Autocannons, a bunch of Storm Bolters, Multilasers, etc)
Any heavy anti tank shooting (what amounts to assault cannons in a unit of 5 marines is not that tough) 6x TL Autocannons at str8 (basically 12 TL Krak Missiles) each turn in addition to 22 Melta weapons isn't AT shooting?
Any ability to negate cover the majority of armies don't really have this, and usually cover negating weapons are AP4 or higher anyway
Any ability to negate LOS Again, most armies can't do this. I'm not sure why it's super relevant?
Any reliable shooting AP 22 AP1 weapons and 6 weapons shooting 12-24 rending shots per turn isn't shooting AP?
Any abililty to move more than 12" (unless purifiers have to 30" thing, but I don't think they do, even so 15 T4 3+ models is not hard to deal with) Sure. Is this absolutely a requirement? 10 transports should get stuff where it needs to go shouldn't it?
Any ability to attack LD characteristics & multiply your force it's arguable if a Psyker unit is even required for IG, so what is the relevance of having it or not? I don't see this as a weakness in the GK list in question what-so-ever
And orders the bigger issue here is that the Melta fire coming from the GK army is BS3. Orders are nice, but not really super necessary, nor would they really be missed. Losing that point of BS compared to vet squads however is important
Not mention you have no ablitive wounds so every casualty eats into special weapons and expensive models. Have you played mech IG much? The ablative wounds in the vet and CC units don't really matter. Usually the unit is forced out of its transport and killed, or it stays in there all game. Very rarely do I find the extra 7 bodies to matter with my IG. If I could pay 50pts less per unit to just take the special weapon dudes and leave the grunts at home, I probably would.

I'm not saying it isn't good, but > guard I'm not sold on. Guard redux at best.

Yeah, most horde players I know don't know how to deal with mass heavy flamers at all. They usually clump up. Sometimes they do it in cone-shapes.

I thought nothing else needed to be said but I guess it does. Being meched up is already a nearly insurmountable advantage against hordes. When all those tanks (which can tank shock) have heavy flamers and can combine with cleansing flame that makes a mockery of even elite horde units like Stealers, I'd say that hordes are covered probably better than by any other army.

If however you feel it's not enough you can add for example a single 10 point psyker to every henchman squad and therefore have 6x S3 large blast.

"Head in Sand" is definatly an appropriate term for what's going on here...but somehow it's not enough.

Instead we'll say "Head in Cement".

Therion wrote:

Yeah, most horde players I know don't know how to deal with mass heavy flamers at all. They usually clump up. Sometimes they do it in cone-shapes.

I thought nothing else needed to be said but I guess it does. Being meched up is already a nearly insurmountable advantage against hordes. When all those tanks (which can tank shock) have heavy flamers and can combine with cleansing flame that makes a mockery of even elite horde units like Stealers, I'd say that hordes are covered probably better than by any other army.

So, out of curiosity - and this isn't baiting, I'm sincerely curious - how do you plan to deal with 150-180 Orks that can afford to give you a unit to Heavy Flamers, then give you a unit to Cleansing Flame (obviously being generous here), leaving them with 90-120 Boyz to deal with what you've just put in front of them?

Especially if they have 30-45 Lootas pelting the Chimeras on the way in?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshane1 wrote:"Head in Sand" is definatly an appropriate term for what's going on here...but somehow it's not enough.

You're right. No one knows what they're talking about if they don't agree with you. Because the metagame is the same everywhere, right? If you're playing in Washington or Phoenix or Miami or New York, or on the interwebz - all dice roll the same, all generals are the same and everyone plays their list exactly the same.

It would be nice when everything that we theoryhammer goes exactly that way we want it to. No Immobilizes, no Weapons Destroyed, always getting the charge off, always having the right shot and always rolling average or above. But it doesn't work like that.

Deadshane1 wrote:Instead we'll say "Head in Cement".

Indeed.

Sasori wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:The question I would have is how you are advancing shrouded----if you don't play with Land Raiders.

From what has been said, the Librarian can sit in a Chimera.

Oops---I didn't think about Chimeras carrying Terminators

So, out of curiosity - and this isn't baiting, I'm sincerely curious - how do you plan to deal with 150-180 Orks

The exact same way as mech IG or other mechanised tournament builds deal with them, except I also have 3x cleansing flame at my disposal. The Purifiers are worth a lot more in that role than a pie plate or two, and I've already told you that cheap Psyker additions are available to the henchmen units for those who feel they need them. It's not in this thread's interest to go into 'how do mechanised armies in 40K beat Ork Green Tide'.

Therion wrote:

So, out of curiosity - and this isn't baiting, I'm sincerely curious - how do you plan to deal with 150-180 Orks

The exact same way as mech IG or other mechanised tournament builds deal with them,

Except that that -is- the point of the thread - or what it has turned into - the list's viability compared to something similar like Mech IG.

Mech IG would use things like Medusae and Manticores to deal with them. But you don't have those. Or they might use Marbo on occasion, Demo charge vets or, on very rare occasion, Punishers. But you don't have those either.

Therion wrote:except I also have 3x cleansing flame at my disposal.

And I already accounted for those. I gave you a unit of 30 Ork boyz just to Cleansing Flame. What about when you're done with those 30 and it's their turn? And now you have 120 Shoota Boyz staring at you?

Therion wrote:and I've already told you that cheap Psyker additions are available to the henchmen units for those who feel they need them.

Right, but they aren't in your list. And they need to cast, to hit and 5's to wound. Not as effective as something like a Manticore.

Therion wrote:It's not in this thread's interest to go into 'how do mechanised armies in 40K beat Ork Green Tide'.

It wasn't. It was a reinforcement of ArtfcllyFlvrd's response earlier that the list lacks some ways to handle some things. Then, your defense of it saying that it is actually best equipped to deal with hordes. So, "how does this mechanised GK army beat a Ork Green Tide" would very much speak to those points, I would've thought.

But, as I said before, I guess a "We'll see" is the appropriate response for now.

The army just isn't balanced enough. It's going to do really well against a few things, I think it would do well agaist guard. Most of the BA builds I have seen it will struggle. Most of the SW builds I have seen, it will struggle. I think it would struggle against green tide. It's solid stuff, and scary with a good player behind, but I don't think it is as well rounded or optimized as a guard army of similar size.

Mech IG would use things like Medusae and Manticores to deal with them. But you don't have those. Or they might use Marbo on occasion, Demo charge vets or, on very rare occasion, Punishers. But you don't have those either.

Competitive mech IG run one Manticore and sometimes two in which scenario they're slightly gimping themselves against many types of opponents. They don't run Marbo, demo vets or Punishers. You're speculating with uncompetitive units. I've already answered to you that the effect the Manticore has against hordes is easily outdone by the Purifiers.

And I already accounted for those. I gave you a unit of 30 Ork boyz just to Cleansing Flame. What about when you're done with those 30 and it's their turn?

I believe that if you go for the win and don't stand in your deployment zone all spread out and waiting for the game to end, during the whole game I can kill more than 100 Ork Boys with the vehicles alone. You haven't played tanks before I guess.

Right, but they aren't in your list.

Because they aren't needed.

Not as effective as something like a Manticore.

Are you trolling? If I said 'then I have a Manticore' you'd quickly say it gets suppressed or destroyed by your Kommandos/Koptas/Lootas/whatever. You're rambling.

But, as I said before, I guess a "We'll see" is the appropriate response for now.

It's one of the many responses you've got.

If you take the typical Guard list (i.e. Leafblower or Hydra Spam, etc. ) assume the IG player will make no changes, and then compare them to a competitive build from a new codex, yes, I can see where the devaluing of Guard that some players have comes from.

Like any army Guard will just adapt to the ever changing Meta game and keep on trucking.

I believe Grey Knights will struggle a little against Guard, but that really is a situational statement.

Shrouding on a Librarian is Guard's primary concern, but that does place a big target on the Librarian's head. As a guard player if I can alpha strike the Librarian's ride and PBS him off the table (which is unlikely, but possible) then I win that game. Period.

I will say a good Guard Player versus a good Grey Knight player is more then likely to be a coin flip. Give Guard some time to adjust, I just don't see them really sweating Grey Knights anymore then they sweat Space Wolves, Orks, or Blood Angels.

I will say a good Guard Player versus a good Grey Knight player is more then likely to be a coin flip. Give Guard some time to adjust, I just don't see them really sweating Grey Knights anymore then they sweat Space Wolves, Orks, or Blood Angels.

That's close to being accurate. When all the variables are excluded and we're talking from a purely army lists point of view there's not much point for IG to 'sweat' about their opponents. They have a solid force. Just like I don't know any competitive BA, SW or future GK players sweating over IG.

Mahu wrote:
Shrouding on a Librarian is Guard's primary concern, but that does place a big target on the Librarian's head. As a guard player if I can alpha strike the Librarian's ride and PBS him off the table (which is unlikely, but possible) then I win that game. Period.

Good luck with that, if he's riding in a chimera along with an Inquisitor.


Definatly a target though, you're right about that...and the GK player knows it.

Then again, contrary to popular beleif, the GK's are not TOTALLY reliant on their Psychic abilities....its just icing on the cake...thick and very sweet, but still icing.

Would you really take a librarian for the sole purpose of improving the cover save of one unit by 1? That seems like the most massive waste ever.

Nope, I'd take a librarian to protect multiple dreads and a group of transports popping smoke though....any day.

Everything within 6" gets "Stealthed", not just one unit.

It's an aura---everything within 6"

So the answer to my original question is more Inquisition and less grey knights? Seems reasonable enough.

Therion wrote:

Mech IG would use things like Medusae and Manticores to deal with them. But you don't have those. Or they might use Marbo on occasion, Demo charge vets or, on very rare occasion, Punishers. But you don't have those either.

Competitive mech IG run one Manticore and sometimes two in which scenario they're slightly gimping themselves against many types of opponents. They don't run Marbo, demo vets or Punishers. You're speculating with uncompetitive units. I've already answered to you that the effect the Manticore has against hordes is easily outdone by the Purifiers.

Here you go again, applying your competitive meta to the meta of the entire world. You realize that it doesn't work like that right? Demo Vets with Meltaguns in Vendettas are something that I have seen in a competitive environment. I guess I should let them know it's not competitive so they can play the same list as the internet tells them to.

Therion wrote:

And I already accounted for those. I gave you a unit of 30 Ork boyz just to Cleansing Flame. What about when you're done with those 30 and it's their turn?

I believe that if you go for the win and don't stand in your deployment zone all spread out and waiting for the game to end, during the whole game I can kill more than 100 Ork Boys with the vehicles alone. You haven't played tanks before I guess.

Childish much? Did you get your feelings hurt because someone's not blowing sunshine up your arse like other posters? Your assumption is that the KFF doesn't save anything (outside of heavy flamers) and the Lootas don't blow up anything. So, across 3-4 turns, you've killed 100 Boyz and they've done nothing in return? You do know that two people play the game, right?

Therion wrote:

Not as effective as something like a Manticore.

Are you trolling? If I said 'then I have a Manticore' you'd quickly say it gets suppressed or destroyed by your Kommandos/Koptas/Lootas/whatever. You're rambling.

That doesn't even make sense. Why would you say, "Then I have a Manticore."? You can't. That doesn't even logically follow. You might as well say, "Well I have a Defiler and a Fire Prism and a Redeemer." What was the point? I was talking about the list you gave us, not some magical list that can take anything that you want. . .

Childish much? Did you get your feelings hurt because someone's not blowing sunshine up your arse like other posters? Your assumption is that the KFF doesn't save anything (outside of heavy flamers) and the Lootas don't blow up anything. So, across 3-4 turns, you've killed 100 Boyz and they've done nothing in return? You do know that two people play the game, right?

I have yet to see anyone do what you described in this thread. The same 'counter' logic you're applying now can be applied to the effect of a single Manticore. It shoots unluckily only one missile, it scatters a bit, you've got KFF and you lose 4 Orks out of your 180. Next turn you pop it. Mech IG are screwed they can't beat Orks!

You might as well say, "Well I have a Defiler and a Fire Prism and a Redeemer." What was the point? I was talking about the list you gave us, not some magical list that can take anything that you want. . .

That's entertaining because out of all the people in the thread I'm the only one to post a viable tournament list. Even the ones who said it will struggle are only talking about hypothetical competitive armies that it will struggle against. If you have feel that you know a competitive tournament army (an army that wins tournaments and doesn't get hard countered by any competitive armies) that my army list will struggle against you need to post it. Only then can we even start speculating on the changes that can be made. If you manage to do this I still have full confidence in the flexibility and power in the GK codex that the necessary changes can be made. It's a very good army book.

Funnily enough your focus has become 'can Therion's GK beat everyone in the 40K universe' when it should be 'can GK be as competitive or even more competitive in an all-around tournament setting than Mech IG'. This is to be expected since you've shown to be unaware of what the word competitive even means and unable to give concrete real world 1750p examples with evidence. You need to attack what you can even at the expense of derailing the discussion. You're free to.

P.S. Green tide isn't competitive, but if you feel you need to post your 1.75K version of it, please do. Just remember that any list you put forward can't be countered by SW, BA, IG, DE, etc, or it doesn't fit the requirement. If it is, you're 'tooling against' and will fall to the bottom tables already round one when an unprefered enemy hits.

This is the basics of tournament playing. You build your armies to be competitive against the top dogs like (but not exclusively) mech IG because those are the ones you need to beat on your way to overall victory. You largely ignore the uncompetitive armies (like hordes) and in the unlikely event (first round) that you meet them you improvise and use the weapons in your arsenal to their best effect and get away with a win. Just a tip, for free. Nice picture though. Is it you?

I would take it on with my 1750 and no changes:

CCS: Comp Commander w/ PP, 4 PGs, Astropath, Chimera, Heavy Flamer
Witch Hunter Inquisitor: Divine Pronouncement
PBS: 6 Psyckers, Chimera, Heavy Flamer
PCS: 4 Flamers, Chimera, Heavy Flamer
IS x 2: Flamer, Autocannon, Chimera: Heavy Flamer
SWS x 2: 2 Melta guns, Demo Charge
Vets: 3 Melta Guns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer
Vendetta x 2
Hyrdas (2)
Manticore
Medusa

Because apparently unless you spell out exactly what you are talking about with lists your comments are irrelevant.

The discussion is kind of irrelevant at this point. Some people think their army and how they run is the end all be all. there is no way to prove it, we are never going to run into each other in a tournament, so unless someone here wins something with said armies this is all getting pointless.

The discussion is kind of irrelevant at this point. Some people think their army and how they run is the end all be all. there is no way to prove it, we are never going to run into each other in a tournament, so unless someone here wins something with said armies this is all getting pointless.

You're correct and I'll let you know when I do. All depends on how fast Maelstrom ships those models and how fast they can be painted to my standard.

Your list is good although not as good as my own IG list. You're quite a few vehicles and guns short. It would be a good game.

Therion wrote:

Childish much? Did you get your feelings hurt because someone's not blowing sunshine up your arse like other posters? Your assumption is that the KFF doesn't save anything (outside of heavy flamers) and the Lootas don't blow up anything. So, across 3-4 turns, you've killed 100 Boyz and they've done nothing in return? You do know that two people play the game, right?

I have yet to see anyone do what you described in this thread. The same 'counter' logic you're applying now can be applied to the effect of a single Manticore. It shoots unluckily only one missile, it scatters a bit, you've got KFF and you lose 4 Orks out of your 180. Next turn you pop it. Mech IG are screwed they can't beat Orks!

Maybe so. I didn't say that was out of the question. If you take out Mech IG's anti-horde units, they have trouble against hordes - who woulda thunk?

Therion wrote:

You might as well say, "Well I have a Defiler and a Fire Prism and a Redeemer." What was the point? I was talking about the list you gave us, not some magical list that can take anything that you want. . .

That's entertaining because out of all the people in the thread I'm the only one to post a viable tournament list. Even the ones who said it will struggle are only talking about hypothetical competitive armies that it will struggle against. If you have feel that you know a competitive tournament army (an army that wins tournaments and doesn't get hard countered by any competitive armies) that my army list will struggle against you need to post it. Only then can we even start speculating on the changes that can be made. If you manage to do this I still have full confidence in the flexibility and power in the GK codex that the necessary changes can be made. It's a very good army book.

Actually, anecdotal evidence is all we've gotten. Sure, you've posted a list. A one-armed monkey can look at the GK book and spam meltas in chimeras. It's how the list is played that makes the difference. The general makes the list, not vice versa. Unfortunately, for all those involved in the conversation, if you don't deem it competitive, then it's not. I guess all the winners of tournaments that didn't play what you consider competitive just had bad opponents, then?

Therion wrote:Funnily enough your focus has become 'can Therion's GK beat everyone in the 40K universe' when it should be 'can GK be as competitive or even more competitive in an all-around tournament setting than Mech IG'.

No, my focus was hordes, which you said your list was basically optimized against. I was simply asking you how you would deal with an example of one. That's what turned into this argument.

Therion wrote:This is to be expected since you've shown to be unaware of what the word competitive even means

Aww, you're not resorting to personal attacks are you? You were warned for that once.

Therion wrote:You need to attack what you can even at the expense of derailing the discussion.

I explained my reasoning and why I brought up the points I did. If you ignore them, I can't force you to read them.

Therion wrote:P.S. Green tide isn't competitive

Guess 2nd Place at 'ard Boyz Finals in Chicago Battle Bunker would've liked to know that.

Therion wrote:but if you feel you need to post your 1.75K version of it, please do. Just remember that any list you put forward can't be countered by SW, BA, IG, DE, etc, or it doesn't fit the requirement. If it is, you're 'tooling against' and will fall to the bottom tables already round one when an unprefered enemy hits.

I don't play Orks. I play against them often enough to understand what they do, what they can do and how they're built. But, I can throw together a list real quick, if you want. It'd be a Mek (or a Warboss), about 5 or so Boyz (all Shoota boyz, Nob with Powerklaw) units and as many Lootas as I could cram in. I'd have to look at the codex if you want exact point values and I'm about to head to dinner with the wife. I can do it when I get back, though, if you really need the conversation to be validated.

Therion wrote:This is the basics of tournament playing. You build your armies to be competitive against the top dogs like (but not exclusively) mech IG because those are the ones you need to beat on your way to overall victory.

Unless those already got beaten. I mean, do you play in a vacuum where all results are the same against the same people and the same lists at the same venues? Must be boring.

Therion wrote: Is it you?

Nope. Lewis Black!

Puma,

Your side was pretty much lost when you suggested "punishers" as a counter to hordes. It clearly shows that you're missing Therion's point that a list and its units must be flexible to handle top tournament lists. A punisher is far from that. There are always "tailored" counters (and a punisher isn't even THAT good).

Assuming the punisher comment was just a momentary blackout in your reasoning, I don't think you fully appreciate the strength of cleansing flame. With some careful tank shocking / positioning, the purifiers can charge a unit of 30 boys and they will almost entirely wipe them out in 1 phase. Cleansing flame does ~12 wounds. Assuming you tank shocked or even just moved your tanks such that only a few boys can into combat, you're taking a crapton of fearless saves. Sure, it takes some careful positioning, but Green Tide as you suggested only has 3 tank killing units a turn, assuming they all live long enough. The point is that there is a tool (cleansing flame) available to deal with your proposed threat, in addition to the standard HF, AC, HB.

The only difference between Mech IG's horde killing power is a manticore or two. Those Manticores either (1) get shot at by all the lootas or (2) don't get shot by lootas and kill a number of boys, but force the IG to deal with them up close. You can't really shoot the purifiers effectively since they sit in a tank and can swap transports if it dies. The difference between IG / GK is that when the orks get close purifiers kill 30 man squads in almost 1 phase. IG have to rely on heavy flamers (which the GK have in similar numbers).

Also, as Therion referenced above, if you're really scared of Green Tide, you can add single S3 large blast pyskers for 10 points a pop. Just by dropping the las/plas turret on a RB you get 3. For 30 points, they do a fair amount of damage to the tide. They aren't a be all, end all, but now we're talking about a number of Str 3 large blasts, cleansing flame, storm bolters/psycannons, HB, HF and multi-lasters. Is that not enough horde killing potential WHILE still being able to deal with mech spam!??!!? When a list can make simple swaps to effectively deal with your "counter" without giving up it's competitiveness against other lists, you should rethink your counter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:The army just isn't balanced enough. It's going to do really well against a few things, I think it would do well agaist guard. Most of the BA builds I have seen it will struggle. Most of the SW builds I have seen, it will struggle. I think it would struggle against green tide. It's solid stuff, and scary with a good player behind, but I don't think it is as well rounded or optimized as a guard army of similar size.

Sorry, what "Most of the BA builds" and "Most of the SW builds" that you have seen will it struggle against? Would love to see examples of each. I find it hard to believe an army packing that much melta fire with deep strike negating abilities and str8 rifle dreads would have that much "trouble" against BA or most SW. Struggle is far from the right term here. I'm failing to see where it is not "well-rounded" enough to handle either of those armies adequately, unless I'm missing something (and thus why I asked for your list examples).

Leenus wrote:
Your side was pretty much lost when you suggested "punishers" as a counter to hordes. It clearly shows that you're missing Therion's point that a list and its units must be flexible to handle top tournament lists. A punisher is far from that. There are always "tailored" counters (and a punisher isn't even THAT good).

*sigh* I didn't "suggest" Punishers. It was a list of the things that IG have that can deal with Hordes that GK do not. As simple as that.

Leenus wrote:Assuming the punisher comment was just a momentary blackout in your reasoning, I don't think you fully appreciate the strength of cleansing flame.

You're probably right here. I haven't played against it, just number-crunched it.

Leenus wrote:With some careful tank shocking / positioning, the purifiers can charge a unit of 30 boys and they will almost entirely wipe them out in 1 phase.

And that would be exactly what they would want. I'll give you a unit of Boyz for 4 x 52 Shoota shots at your Purifiers. And if you get out to kill those Boyz, you're not in your transports anymore. And even with Cleansing Flame and 10 (or more?) attacks, you may not even stack a wound on the Nob. If you killed 15 with Cleansing Flame and 10 with Close Combat attacks, you still haven't hit the Nob. He swings back for 1-2 dead, then they don't make them as tough to kill when you can open up all your shots on your turn.

More later. . .late for dinner

So to sum it up ig are going to auto loose because gk are going to hide dreads behind transports, cluster their entire army or half of it into a 6" diameter bubble around the librarian for a 3+ cover save that indirect fire from manticores will ignore/make it a 6+ cover along with vendettas that scout 24" to the side also ignoring transports as cover lowering it to a 6+ cover for the dreads.

puma713 wrote:
And that would be exactly what they would want. I'll give you a unit of Boyz for 4 x 52 Shoota shots at your Purifiers. And if you get out to kill those Boyz, you're not in your transports anymore. And even with Cleansing Flame and 10 (or more?) attacks, you may not even stack a wound on the Nob. If you killed 15 with Cleansing Flame and 10 with Close Combat attacks, you still haven't hit the Nob. He swings back for 1-2 dead, then they don't make them as tough to kill when you can open up all your shots on your turn.

More later. . .late for dinner

Riddle me this... How are you going to take 4x52 shots at a unit of purifiers? Think about this one for a while, maybe over dinner. Purifiers charge a unit of boys, cleansing flame kills ~12, attacks kill ~4... Let's say you kill a couple back with boys AND fist. ~10 more guys die from fearless. You now have ~4 guys left. But guess what... We are LOCKED IN COMBAT. I don't believe you can shoot into combat. Moreover, the purifiers are likely to wipe the remaining boys, including nob, before the next round of combat is over, allowing them to charge again next turn.

Obviously, there are a lot of variables with positioning, but I'm trying to convey the strength of cleansing flame. It gets nastier when 2 or 3 units get into a squad of boys. Let's not forget how difficult it is to get that many shoota boys into range without clumping up and getting wrecked by flamers next turn. If the purifiers go crazy and DO wipe the squad.. I'd happily trade 150 point ELITE for 220+ point TROOP, adding that the your troops are likely in a worse position relative to my flamers.

This is all getting a bit too heavy into theory, but you're stubbornly refusing to see that this list has answers to hordes. It has an even BETTER answer to hordes when you realize that it is rare to fight a complete Green Tide of 6 30 man boys units in competitive events (i.e. this GK list can handle the extremes adequately, but doesn't typically have to. It will typically have to fight mech, which it is well suited to do).

Leenus wrote:
Sorry, what "Most of the BA builds" and "Most of the SW builds" that you have seen will it struggle against? Would love to see examples of each. I find it hard to believe an army packing that much melta fire with deep strike negating abilities and str8 rifle dreads would have that much "trouble" against BA or most SW. Struggle is far from the right term here. I'm failing to see where it is not "well-rounded" enough to handle either of those armies adequately, unless I'm missing something (and thus why I asked for your list examples).

What, do people have to put exact lists every time they make a comment about any army now? That's a bit ridiculous.

The guys I know who have played BAs have used either lots of jump troops (not necessarily DOA style, they are pretty good flying across the table) backed up by baals and razors; or various assault troop nastiness pooring out of double land raiders. Both of which would be very hard for this army. The assault troops are perfectly suited to this army. Their speed blows past all the melta guns, they can multi assault 3+ chimeras at a time easily, and when the chimeras blow up most of the guys inside die. Not to mention a fair amount of their own shooting to compliment the very threatening assault element.

Wolves is the typical 3 long fangs, and tons of grey hunters in razors and rhinos. 3 long fang units will have the dreads completely shut down by turn 2. Then the razors are as good against the chimeras as the chimeras are the razors. And they also have a strong assault element and very good psychic defense.

This has sort of devolved into "If you don't think this list is the greatest thing since sliced bread you must be an idiot". Funny that it has come to that since this thread was supposed to be about whether or not G/Ks were weak. I don't think anyone is seriously saying they will be weak, or even the posted list is weak. But it has its own uphill battles, and the constant questioning of other people's credentials just because they disagree with you is tiring.

Leenus wrote:

puma713 wrote:
And that would be exactly what they would want. I'll give you a unit of Boyz for 4 x 52 Shoota shots at your Purifiers. And if you get out to kill those Boyz, you're not in your transports anymore. And even with Cleansing Flame and 10 (or more?) attacks, you may not even stack a wound on the Nob. If you killed 15 with Cleansing Flame and 10 with Close Combat attacks, you still haven't hit the Nob. He swings back for 1-2 dead, then they don't make them as tough to kill when you can open up all your shots on your turn.

More later. . .late for dinner

Riddle me this... How are you going to take 4x52 shots at a unit of purifiers? Think about this one for a while, maybe over dinner. Purifiers charge a unit of boys, cleansing flame kills ~12, attacks kill ~4... Let's say you kill a couple back with boys AND fist. ~10 more guys die from fearless. You now have ~4 guys left. But guess what... We are LOCKED IN COMBAT. I don't believe you can shoot into combat. Moreover, the purifiers are likely to wipe the remaining boys, including nob, before the next round of combat is over, allowing them to charge again next turn.

Sure. But if you have more than 1 unit of Purifiers locked, the Boyz are dead. If you don't, that means there is a unit of Purifiers that are open to shooting from Lootas (their Rhino/Razorback) and then Boyz (the ones that aren't locked). We keep talking about this game like it is in a vacuum when it never is. We can theoryhammer all we want.

Leenus wrote:It gets nastier when 2 or 3 units get into a squad of boys. Let's not forget how difficult it is to get that many shoota boys into range without clumping up and getting wrecked by flamers next turn. If the purifiers go crazy and DO wipe the squad.. I'd happily trade 150 point ELITE for 220+ point TROOP, adding that the your troops are likely in a worse position relative to my flamers.

Again, assuming that the Orks have done nothing in however many turns it takes to get into these positions (2, maybe) to all these flamers. And if you're trading your 150 ELITES for the 220+ TROOPS, that's fine. That would leave 3 more TROOPS (90 Boyz) to deal with your last 20 Henchman.

Leenus wrote:This is all getting a bit too heavy into theory

Agree.

Leenus wrote:but you're stubbornly refusing to see that this list has answers to hordes.

Actually, I'm not. I'm with the fact that it has Cleansing Flame and Heavy Flamers. I'm completely aware. It seems like you're blindly thinking that a horde army will have nothing to deal with heavy flamers. As if the people writing those lists have never thought, "What if they bring Heavy Flamers?!" If you're playing a horde list, what is one of the first things you look for in the enemy army? Blasts and templates.

Therion was making it out to seem like it was the ultimate anti-horde army. So, in response, I asked him how he would deal with a Green Tide, which he answered, 'That's not competitive. Give me a competitive list.' Sort of like you just did. Yet, I see them at competitions all the time. In the practice for the ATC locally, a Green Tide won. Last year's 'ard Boyz, 2nd place in Chicago Finals was a Green Tide. It's not unheard of. Maybe in your meta.

The point was that ArtfcllyFlvrd made some points that Deadshane1 and Therion apparently took offense too. I provided a counter-discussion to what was cropping up and it led to this. All in all, you're right - way too much theory, but I think both sides should realize that neither has all the answers.

Therion wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

Therion wrote:I'm with Deadshane on this one. It's way too early to tell but my instinct is that if one codex had to be put up for the pedestal then GK would be the best army in the game now. The army can be built to shoot as hard or nearly as hard as IG while still retaining an incredible amount of special abilities and viable counter-assault capability which the IG doesn't possess.

I couldn't disagree more, Therion-- Coteaz seems almost like a complete red herring for competitive play to me. When BS 3 Henchmen in Chimerae with Psyfleman support go up against BS 4 Veterans in Chimerae with Hydra/Manticore/Vendetta support, it isn't too hard to figure out what will happen.

Dreadnoughts are point by point even better firepower than Hydras, the previous kings of that role. Hydras are still awesome though because they bring the most tanks per point meaning they're quite resilient. Fortitude lessens this difference a bit. In the troops choices however there isn't a competition. 97 points for 3 Meltaguns in a Chimera is always more desirable than 155 points for Veterans with 3 Meltaguns in a Chimera. Why? Because naturally it'll leave more points for additional tanks and units.

Just for numbers comparison, my GK at 1750 points has a combined 50 heavy/special weapons. Many of them are BS4 and/or twin-linked. Some are BS3. My favorite Mech IG list has 57 heavy/special weapons in the same points limit. It has much fewer meltas, no crazy guns like S8 autocannons or psycannons, absolutely zero counter-charge, no power weapons, doesn't block scouts and infiltrates, cannot shoot at deep strikers, doesn't have any psychic defence like the Reinforced Aegis bubbles, and overall only edges out in the amount of tanks department. My GK has 12 vehicles at this limit while my IG has 15. Like I said previously, marginals are small but the GK are simply better overall. Perhaps they're completely equal heads up but against all comers in random terrains and missions? It's not even a hard one to figure out. GK have it.

I'm just going to quote Deadshane who posted after me and also stress the fact that 40K in my opinion is in a state of good enough balance. This means every army can be beaten, but if we're analysing tournament army lists on their own it's impossible for me to agree that IG would be better than the new GK. There's a number of quite problematic opponent/mission/terrain combinations for IG that won't be nearly as challenging for the mech GK.

Mech IG are not very good i have not lost to one yet and i play a Kan wall green tide
what you should be asking is how many Leman russ can GK take?? none, come again, so it was OP for Orks to have
1 leman russ but IG can have 9

MY mate plays 5 leman russ battle tanks and BA have a cry so i think GK will too

Green tide autowin against marines obviously, since marines don't take heavy flamers and have only one attack, obviously green tide OP?

Frankly GK have far better options against Green Tide than most marine armies. 4x incineratior squads, cleansing flame, 30point S5 large blasts, S5 bolter spam (now threatens vehicles too), etc etc. With the given list it is better to just pop the lootas with long range fire and just run in circles around the hoard while flaming anything that comes close. One can tarpit some mobs with the dreads while clensing flame the other units. If your vehicle wall control worked out right one might even multicharge with purifier while in contact with only a few models (the orks needs to spread out to not get flamed silly) and just multi-cleansing flame for mega death. (possibly killing two units in out turn) There is 9 vehicle hulls for a reason after all.

Like I said previously, marginals are small but the GK are simply better overall. Perhaps they're completely equal heads up but against all comers in random terrains and missions? It's not even a hard one to figure out. GK have it.

I don't know, that list looks like awfully few scoring models here, and they often have to get to suicidal range to use their weapons. That just isn't good if you have to cap many objectives and actually use the meltas in the same game.

Mahu wrote:If you take the typical Guard list (i.e. Leafblower or Hydra Spam, etc. ) assume the IG player will make no changes, and then compare them to a competitive build from a new codex, yes, I can see where the devaluing of Guard that some players have comes from.

Like any army Guard will just adapt to the ever changing Meta game and keep on trucking.

I believe Grey Knights will struggle a little against Guard, but that really is a situational statement.

Shrouding on a Librarian is Guard's primary concern, but that does place a big target on the Librarian's head. As a guard player if I can alpha strike the Librarian's ride and PBS him off the table (which is unlikely, but possible) then I win that game. Period.

I will say a good Guard Player versus a good Grey Knight player is more then likely to be a coin flip. Give Guard some time to adjust, I just don't see them really sweating Grey Knights anymore then they sweat Space Wolves, Orks, or Blood Angels.

IG adjustment = more plasmaguns at the minimum.....

freddieyu1 wrote:

Mahu wrote:If you take the typical Guard list (i.e. Leafblower or Hydra Spam, etc. ) assume the IG player will make no changes, and then compare them to a competitive build from a new codex, yes, I can see where the devaluing of Guard that some players have comes from.

Like any army Guard will just adapt to the ever changing Meta game and keep on trucking.

I believe Grey Knights will struggle a little against Guard, but that really is a situational statement.

Shrouding on a Librarian is Guard's primary concern, but that does place a big target on the Librarian's head. As a guard player if I can alpha strike the Librarian's ride and PBS him off the table (which is unlikely, but possible) then I win that game. Period.

I will say a good Guard Player versus a good Grey Knight player is more then likely to be a coin flip. Give Guard some time to adjust, I just don't see them really sweating Grey Knights anymore then they sweat Space Wolves, Orks, or Blood Angels.

IG adjustment = more plasmaguns at the minimum.....

Plasma is the option that always comes up in discussions like this, and you know? Still isn't taken. Since it isn't cheap, and it gets negated against cover. If GKs relied of FNP, I almost could see it, but people didn't even add plasma when DE came out, which is a T3 army with FNP the only way to get a decent save on most things. Plasma is the easy and wrong answer.

I just remember seeing a battle report of how orks got tabled by this totally unoptimized list
http://40kwreckingcrew.aceboard.com/331128-602-6653-0-Thoughts-after-playtest-Grey-Knights.htm

So, in response, I asked him how he would deal with a Green Tide, which he answered, 'That's not competitive. Give me a competitive list.' Sort of like you just did. Yet, I see them at competitions all the time. In the practice for the ATC locally, a Green Tide won. Last year's 'ard Boyz, 2nd place in Chicago Finals was a Green Tide.

If there are examples, you can just bring the lists here. The point of asking for a list is to prevent someone using tailored counter lists to discuss balance.

SWPIGWANG wrote:If there are examples, you can just bring the lists here. The point of asking for a list is to prevent someone using tailored counter lists to discuss balance.

Librarium-online wrote:2 warbosses on bikes attached to a single 10 nob biker squad with all the trimmings, 3 units of 9 lootas, a unit of deffkoptas w/rokkits, and 5 units of 25 slugga boyz w/powerklaws

That was the ard Boyz list that won 2nd in the Finals.

SWPIGWANG wrote:I just remember seeing a battle report of how orks got tabled by this totally unoptimized list
http://40kwreckingcrew.aceboard.com/331128-602-6653-0-Thoughts-after-playtest-Grey-Knights.htm

That battle was with the leakdex, though...

That was the ard Boyz list that won 2nd in the Finals.

Won second? Ard Boyz is 2500 points, isn't it? At that points level the 5 man Purifier teams are already 10 man Purifier teams in 6 combat squads total for twice the amount of psycannons and twice the amount of cleansing flames.

That battle was with the leakdex, though...

The GK army in that thread is terrible and from what I can see the only thing that changed in his army for the actual 'dex was that teleporting PAGK are FA not Troops. It was pretty fun to see him wipe out 80 Orks with just 8 Purifiers though.

Therion wrote:

That was the ard Boyz list that won 2nd in the Finals.

Won second? Ard Boyz is 2500 points, isn't it?

Taking 2nd is nothing to sneeze at, considering that he had to place top 3 in two previous tournaments (most people use the same army) to get there. Also, given that Ard boyz prizes in the semi/final range are usually pretty swank, winning 2nd is pretty accurate (we all know its about the lootzorz).

edited out a quote fail.

puma713 wrote:

rovian wrote:

Kirasu wrote:*snip*

reall wolves have a strong chance how does thunderwolf get nerfed by a power weapon as half will hit and 1 third wound and 2 thirds are saved?

Because out of the 3 wounds that your 5 Thunderwolves take, with a successful psychic test, they're all ID.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jmurph wrote:The big meta shift they do is make plasma more useful

/agree

But 1 half hit 1/3 wound and 2/3rds are saved

Good luck with that, if he's riding in a chimera along with an Inquisitor.

Yeah, I keep forgetting that Weaken Resolve doesn't effect stubborn units (a rules interpretation I don't agree with). Oh well, I can always pin the hell out of that unit though.

Also don't forget Mahu that if he's within 12" of a Dreadnought you need to roll a 5 or less to get the power off in the first place. Reinforced Aegis does have a point afterall

But seriously. This has been a fun read. It's a 5th edition codex. It's balanced w/the other 5th edition codexes.

Let's crunch the numbers.
Five purifiers (3 normal and 2 psycannons) shoot at and then charge 30 orks (29+ nob with powerklaw).
Shooting kills (let's grant the orks a 4+ cover save because we're feeling generous) around 2 orks.
Cleansing flame kills 11 orks
Marine attacks kill 4 orks.

Purifiers kill 17/30 orks and then the orks swing back

12 boyz (slugga/choppa) hit with 18 attacks, causing 6 wounds. Let's say that 2 marines die.
Then the nob swing with 3 attacks. Let's say he hits with 2 and kills 2 more marines.
The single remaining purifier win combat by 13 and the orks are most likely wiped.

If the orks get the charge on the purifiers then the grey nights are wiped at the cost of about 16 orks (I'd take it if I were the ork player).

So is that a good or a bad unit v unit given that the purifiers are 140 pts and the boyz are 215?

sourclams wrote:So is that a good or a bad unit v unit given that the purifiers are 140 pts and the boyz are 215?

Depends on how you view ork blobs. As PK delivery, or as massed attacks. If its the first, unit is still effectively intact (nob still alive), the second, probably not since you lost most of the unit's mass.

sourclams wrote:So is that a good or a bad unit v unit given that the purifiers are 140 pts and the boyz are 215?

Or 220 with a bosspole
The problem for the orks at 1500-1750 points is that they are running 3-4 of these large boyz squads at most (assuming balanced list with lootas and other support; perhaps a kan wall even). You've taken a huge chunk out of the army and ripped open a flank/path to an objective. Point-for-point trading is only one consideration. Let's also not underestimate the psychological trauma the ork player will suffer when his 30 boyz are wiped by 5 marines.

Wouldn't that be a colossal failure for the Ork player regardless of whether they view the boy mob as a massed assault unit or a PK delivery system?

If the Purifiers charge, the Orks lose all their models. The Ork player has lost a significant chunk of his army in an unfavorable unit v unit trade, has lost a significant area of the table / his force projection is diminished, and the Orks, including the PK nob are all dead and have no potential, as a unit, to recover through gameplay, luck, or underdog style events.

Furthermore, that single remaining purifier still has 60% of the combat potency of the original squad. You've made a horrible trade in models and resources, and the majority of the threat still exists.

Hulksmash wrote:Also don't forget Mahu that if he's within 12" of a Dreadnought you need to roll a 5 or less to get the power off in the first place. Reinforced Aegis does have a point afterall

But seriously. This has been a fun read. It's a 5th edition codex. It's balanced w/the other 5th edition codexes.

That is going to be rare, as most of the time Grey Knights are going to be rather fielding psyriflemen in the back field, and the range of weaken resolve is 36", so a dread will have to get aweful close to start messing with it. A closeness the Guard player will be perfectly happy with.

The best situation is to nail the Librarian outside of hood range who is not in a squad with an =][=. At that point, the PBS still needs to make a leadership 8 test (not that hard) and cause 25% causalties, (a little harder, especially with shrouding). It's a long shot, but if I was going for the alpha strike, I would take the bet.

If an =][= is there, I would just simply switch over to the blast template.

PBS is still a good choice, even against Grey Knights, so I don't see them disappearing from my list. Not unless I want to take a WH =][= lord to try and disrupte Fortitude and the Shrouding, which has been very tempting after my first couple of test games last night with the Grey Knight/IG match up.

Does reinforced aegis affect units casting within 12" or if the target is in 12"?

Ok, this discussion has drifted into some tangential (and largely irrelevant) topics, but the heartbeat of the thread still exists, is the grey knight codex too good, too weak or just right?

If I haven't already stated my position clearly, it is my opinion that the grey knight codex is very strong. They are going to do very well in competitive tournaments. As a regular attendee and judge of 'serious business' no comp tourneys, and as an owner of space wolves and imperial guard tourney lists, and as someone who has played 8 games now with the actual codex, against a fully mechanized blood angels army, a fully mechanized IG army, a fully mechanized dark eldar army and a "mechanized" tyranid army (that mechanization coming in the form of tervigons). This data set and some analysis has led me to some conclusions, which I'll share.

The marquis unit in the codex in my opinion is the dreadnought. I have been surprised by the emotionally charged refutations I have received on this statement before. People just don't want this to be the good unit. 5th edition 40k is a mechanized game. I don't love that truth, but arguing against it is going against all of the tourney data my gaming group has compiled in 18 months of competitive tourneys, and generally accepted wisdom on the internet. It is not "just the same dread that space wolves and space marines and blood angels have". It amazes me how undervalued the +1 strength, reinforced aegis and fortitude combination are. Any one of those things would be very nice to add to the already solid "rifleman" dread. All three of them at a total increase of 10 points? The dread doesn't do everything. it isn't AP2, and so it does indeed struggle against 2+ armor and 3+ armor FNP monstrous creatures. But it is an absolute terror to medium and light vehicles, which are abundant in competitive 40k.

The purifiers would probably be my pick for second most dynamic unit in the book. They add to the mechanized gunline profile with their access to razorbacks, they add some pretty extremely effective counter-assault, and are also armed with a substantially powerful special/heavy weapon. And they can pack a pair of them, making the weapon fire from that unit more effective without support. I could attempt to explain how good cleansing flame is, and then continue with an explanation of how much more devastating it is if you manage to have two unit with cleansing flame involved in one combat. And I could explain how good initiative 6 force weapons are, on models with two base attacks. But they should speak for themselves. the units are not so expensive, and are not so focused on assault that they draw away from the shooty nature of the list. They are just an excellent fit.

Henchman could have a massive essay written on them. Access to the poster-child special weapon of 5th edition (the meltagun) access to a vehicle with firepoints to allow that special weapon to be used within dangerous proximity to enemy units. Able to include quite powerful CC models to their units should they feel it neccessary. Servitors, jokearo for longer range fire power, or just providing 3 meltaguns, a heavy flamer and a multi-laser on an armor 12 platform for UNDER 100 points.

50 point razorbacks with 36" range strength 6 BS4 twin-linked shots, are available in both the troops and elite slot...


Those are the units to talk about in a vacuum, but they also create synergies with each other. these synergies take a collection of good units, and make them a great army. autocannon dreadnoughts are just tall enough to see over a razorback, but are short enough that from most angles they'll be receiving a 4+ cover save. Most people are taking that for granted, the army has enough long range firepower to draw most armies in towards them, where their mid-range psycannons and storm bolters and their short range assault potential will be devastating. my blood angel opponent, after two back to back games, commented that my list both outshot his list, AND out-assaulted his list. His tuned and tourney ready list, needed to go back to tech support, after encountering a dreadnought/purifier/crowe list.

A librarian can provide a lot to this army as well, the psychic hood is not mutually exclusive with the reinforced aegis, and the pair of them will do a great job of muting the output of psychic powers of enemy units. He also brings a consistent 16% survivability increase to the dreadnoughts, which are providing the support needed to draw enemies in.


Relevant armies in the competitive metagame will have to make concessions to this army.

Imperial guard will need to be very specific on their target priority. Since they are mostly not worried about strength 6, and since they will have time before the psycannons can get within 24" and then become stationary, they will need to very efficiently and very swiftly deal with the dreadnoughts. All vendetta fire, all hydra fire, and all manticore fire, need to dump on them. Chances are, if IG got the first turn, they should be able to kill two of the dreads, making the game quite winnable. If they didn't get first turn, and their vendettas are eliminated quickly by the dreadnoughts, then they can find themselves out of tools to take out the dreadnoughts. It will seem ok until the psycannons arrive, and then their parking lot will be taken out from table center, and they won't be able to tank shock-contest.

Dark Eldar has to roll very well on first turn, or on their arrival from reserve. Night shields can make them nearly invulnerable for most of the game from both razorbacks and psycannons, but the dreadnoughts will absolutely need to be eliminated. Unfortunately, the dark eldar player can not rely on a crew shaken to buy him time and move on to another unit. there is no psychic defense here, and so this game will mostly come down to how well the DE player could roll on a pivotal early turn.

Space wolves are in relatively good shape. With no long range ap3, and likely no plasma coming at their two premiere units, then they just need to play the same game they have been playing against IG. Toughness 5, storm shields and fenrisian wolf bodyguards will keep them safe from the worst of the force weapons and cleansing flame. However, the cav unit will be called upon to make a significant number of 3+ saves from psycannons and some storm bolters. Long fangs will be quite excellent in this matchup though.

Blood Angels might want to make some adjustments. i like the idea of outflanking baals to negate frontal cover saves for the dreads, but unfortunately dakka predators probably don't provide the amount of suppression needed to silence fortituded dreadnoughts. There are plenty of options in that codex, and i am not worried about them here, they'll just need to make an adjustment or three.

Tyranids are coming out of this new codex in pretty decent shape. Not any worse than before... Dark eldar and space wolves did way more to their competitiveness than this book could. tyrannofexes are nearly unkillable, and tervigons, especially with catalyst, are likewise. While dangerous, tervigons actually match up pretty favorably against 5 man grey knight units with force weapons. They'll need 6s to wound, and then they'll have to pass a shadow in the warp psychic test. All the while their lack of invulnerable saves will see them losing models and effectiveness quickly. Genestealers suffer quite a bit against purifiers, but then, they were already suffering against chimera walls...


Long story short. GK are definitely going to be instantly relevant in the competitive tourney games. But just about every competitive army that exists can make a few adjustments and have a relatively reasonable matchup. Some won't be too happy about their matchup, but thats just life at the bleeding edge.

And also, i've become aware that there are people who just don't want to agree with me, or with a lot of what is being said in threads like this. Some of these people are getting emotional, angry, or having some other irrational reaction to this. I don't really understand it, but i don't want to make people angry either. If you are one of these people that having a disporportionate reaction to my replies, I apologize. I'm not on this board to piss anyone off, I'm just a participant in this discussion.

Shep wrote: my blood angel opponent, after two back to back games, commented that my list both outshot his list, AND out-assaulted his list. His tuned and tourney ready list, needed to go back to tech support, after encountering a dreadnought/purifier/crowe list.

That's how I felt about the old 3rd ed chaos book. And what did you see? 2/3 of the tournament armies were CSM. Thats how lots of people felt about about Daemons in fantasy, and what did you see? 2/3 of all fantasy tournament armeis were daemons. That's what some people feel now about space wolves, and what do you see? 2/3 of the tournament armies (at least at the chicago bunker) are SW.

I really can't see someone beating a decent GK army unless A) they are a significanly better player or B) they tool to beat them. I think the stuff is sooo good and so freaking cheap its shot to the top of the running for best book around. I don't know about anyone else but the first tournament I run into more than one of these armies I'm gonna start tooling against them. I'll fight uphill against every other opponent, but if these guys get as popular as I think they will be I'm bringing an army specifically for them. Call me vindictive, but I don't like bandwagons!

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote: but if these guys get as popular as I think they will be I'm bringing an army specifically for them.

You already have been. Any army that wasn't anti-marine wasn't competitive before.

Shep wrote:*snip*

Well said, Shep. Thanks for the insight.

I was reading the Codex (which I had the fortune of being able to buy early for attending my GW's 'birthday') on the loo this morning and decided to calculate the cost of the fairly small army on the back cover of the book - 34 models @ 2743 points!

Unanything wrote:I was reading the Codex (which I had the fortune of being able to buy early for attending my GW's 'birthday') on the loo this morning and decided to calculate the cost of the fairly small army on the back cover of the book - 34 models @ 2743 points!

GW picture armies have nothing to do with being good, but looking cool. Though that is probably the most ridiculous one yet.

Great post Shep.

What was good before (armywise), stays good, but some of it may need tweaks.

What was bad before, is still bad.

GK change the meta but don't break it... although they could possibly magnify it, since Purifiers are one of the best anti-horde hard counters to have ever existed in the recent incarnations of 40k.

I'm hardly a veteran, but new codex release seems always follow same pattern...

1. New book announced. "Hey, New Codex coming up! I hope they fix XXX!"

2. Ppl gather up rumours and start to ponder about builds. "XXX is much more powerful in New Codex, and in addition they get YYY and ZZZ! That is so broken! GW must be mad!"

3. Inevitable counter-reaction..."Meh, I don't think XXX or YYY are that great. And ZZZ won't fly in todays mech-heavy metagame. If anything, the book seems weak."

This phase is followed by so many flame wars that even a Burna boy would get jaded...

4. Book is released. Some people are joyoys, some disappointed. "I'm totally starting New Codex army now!" "I have played New Codex since 1998, and this book totally destroys the spirit of the army. I will quit 40k forever!" "Is it OK to use my Black Templars as count-as New Codex?"

5. Hyper-New Codex is announced, everyone forgets about the previous book, and cycle begins anew...

Most hype I've seen was upon current IG book, which many people thought completely insane, largely based on tremendous amount of new artillery they got. Well, IG are one of the strongest books, so I guess part of the hype was justified...personally I'm not terribly worried about GK, but that's because I play Tau...

Man, i think the "drive up and melta" armies are what gets "hard countered by default" by GK with their mutlipurpose rifle dreads, and troops with psycannons both killing that strategy. DE/Eldar is the other countered list with glance proof AV12 S8 dakka auto-countering their mech lists. Hoards can be killed by spamming purifiers.

Fortitude rifle dread shooting simply means opponents needs more heavy AT, above the transport suppression level of S6/S7 to keep running mech.

Strangely enough while GK itself counters hoard, its effect on the meta may boost hoard by pushing other mech lists into expensive lascannons and lowering their number of shots thrown.

It would be kinda amusing if all this lead to Tank Hunting foot black templars on the top tables....

The grey knights HAVE THE SAME WEAKNESSES AS MARINES BUT WITH LESS NUMBERS. They get terminators with FNP, and can remove 1 deathstar model with a big f you. The main thing that makes them powerful: ITS A PSYKER ARMY.

They can razorspam like regular marines too, tey can go I.G. style with that special character and henchmen. It all comes down to the dice and the army list and how you play them. Expect to get your butt kicked, expect to be massacred. Elitest armies such as the new GK and old Daemonhunters are probably the hardest armies to use. New is intimidating, use the fact no one knows all their rules to your advantage and take your opponent by surprise with some of their powers. Psycannon spam and psilencers seem to be a very popular way people are gearing up for tournies from what Ive been looking into.

Defeatmyarmy wrote:

The grey knights HAVE THE SAME WEAKNESSES AS MARINES BUT WITH LESS NUMBERS. They get terminators with FNP, and can remove 1 deathstar model with a big f you. The main thing that makes them powerful: ITS A PSYKER ARMY.

They can razorspam like regular marines too, tey can go I.G. style with that special character and henchmen. It all comes down to the dice and the army list and how you play them. Expect to get your butt kicked, expect to be massacred. Elitest armies such as the new GK and old Daemonhunters are probably the hardest armies to use. New is intimidating, use the fact no one knows all their rules to your advantage and take your opponent by surprise with some of their powers. Psycannon spam and psilencers seem to be a very popular way people are gearing up for tournies from what Ive been looking into.

The lists I've been messing around building have similar numbers to my codex marines. Only crazy people go all out on paladins, they die to the weapons people fire at termies.

I haven't seen ANYONE actually consider psilencers seriously.

Great post Shep.

I have been playtesting a lot recently with the new GKs primarily against DE and I have to say it looks bad for the xenos. Getting first turn is pretty critical as are the damage rolls against Dreads.

From the games I have played it seems to me at least Coteaz seems almost mandatory. He is cheap, provides deepstrike/outflank defense and allows henchmen as troops. Possibly the most dirsuptive rule he has to DE is "Spy Network". This single rule almost doubles your chances of stealing. Gonna put the fear in DE when they see Coteaz in a list.

And if anyone is interested in seeing some seriously competitive GK lists just take a look at Jy2's batreps. Great reads with good insights and hard as nails lists.