Hi Dakka, the title pretty much explains itself but anyway, I was wondering if any Imperial guard get respect from Space mairne.

Oh and are there ant situations where and Imperial guard commander would gain command for a force including sapce marines, the only incedent I can think of is the Macharian conquest and the Black crusades

Depends on the chapter.
SW respect anyone willing to fight for the Emperor.
Other chapters think the IG simply get in the way or are useless.
Most crusades under the command of a Warmaster have SM support because the SM have pledged to follow the commands of the Warmaster. Most Warmasters get to be Warmasters due to political maneuvering between all Imperial organisations, having an Sm chapter back you up is fairly decent support for becoming a Warmaster.
Other than that it's unlikely an SM chapter would be controlled by a IG commander. They don't even follow each other, during the 13th crusade they had to vote for a supreme commander of all astartes forces (Logan Grimnar incidentally though the DA and Relictors didn't follow him) who was then subordinate to the overall commander of the defense of Cadia.

I'm fairly sure Commisar Yarrick and Ursarkar Creed could tell pretty much any space marine ranked captain or below to go play in traffic.

some do

moonshine wrote:Hi Dakka, the title pretty much explains itself but anyway, I was wondering if any Imperial guard get respect from Space mairne.

As to your first question, of the major chapters, there are two chapters that give the most respect to the IG on a personal level; I.E. they actually like the humans in the Imperial Guard and will freely associate and converse with them when they are in battle together.
They are the Space Wolves and the Salamanders.

Space Marines NEVER take orders from anyone.

they take suggestions.



now, the 13th black crusade was a case of the Space Marines coming to help, and you can't help if you don't know where you are needed.

the Warmaster would tell them where he needed them and they would do it because it was nessacery, not because they had to obey him. they could have walked off at any time.



Not even the High lords of Terra can tell a marine chapter what to do.

the only person a marine is required to answer to is a marine of higher rank in his own chapter or the Emperor.

Cottonjaw wrote:I'm fairly sure Commisar Yarrick and Ursarkar Creed could tell pretty much any space marine ranked captain or below to go play in traffic.

I think not. Marines aren't anywhere in the Guard Chain of Command, so unless either was Warmaster, anything they "told" Marines would be considered a request, not an order. Also, Marine Captains are more equivalent to Guard Generals and Colonels, NOT Guard Captains.

As well, it's not like there are hard and fast rules for Guard ranking. For example, Imperial Combat doctrine states that ranking Guard Infantry>Ranking Guard Tank, so an Infantry Captain would generally be given overall command over a Tank Company General in most instances.

Marines pretty much cover the spectrum. The two chapters named are the most humanitarian. Ultras are also better than most at working alongside normal humans.

There is a scene in Warriors of Ultramar where Uriel Ventris is almost killed by a carnifex, but is saved by a lone guardsmen with a missile launcher. It's been a while since I read the book, but I seem to remember that he visits the guy in the hospital and even gives him one of his own purity seals. Ventris is a captain, so this is a fairly big deal. Some other chapters would have found it insulting to be saved by a mere human.

Then there are chapters at the other end of the spectrum, Marines Malevolent spring instantly to mind. While they seem to respect other marines, they have an arrogant streak and find normal humans (soldiers and civilians) to be useless and expendable. The most famous incident involving them happened during the third war for Armageddon. They were tasked with liberating a camp that had been overtaken by orks. They knew for a fact that there were thousands of hostages inside. So they just pounded it with artillery, killing nearly 1/3 of the hostages. These were considered acceptable losses. The captain in charge was later given a stern lecture by Salamanders chapter master Tu'shan, but basically responded with a shrug.

It all depends on the Chapter and the Guard unit in question.

The Ultramarines have stated, on many occasions, that PDF and Guard units are braver than they, for they fight for their homes, they fear the enemy and they are often under equipped.

Astartes cannot feel fear, they are bred for war, they know they will not lose.

Other Chapters see them as an irritant who should stand aside.

Other humans have the utmost respect from Marines, true heroes who they have fought alongside are given similar respect as any Battle Brother.

I think marines are conditioned to think that life should be lived in service to the Emperor and your death should reflect that, they find this easy as it is bred into them just as fear is bred out. I think alot of them disregard, unintentionaly for the most part, the sacrifices made by the guard. Not out of any malice or superiority, simply because they view the guardsmen to be doing no more than their duty demands, few space marines actively consider the fact that the guardsmen have extroadinary courage.

In summary; yes they get respect in the fact that they are a vital part of the imperiums forces and they serve the Emperor. On the other hand I think Marines like Ragnar Blackmane, who actively think about a guardsmans courage and determination and the relative courage of ordinary men and women, are comparitively rare.

For the templars, Yarrick and Helbrecht seem to have a mutual respect thing going on - they took off together to chase Ghazkull after Armageddon.

IG that fight and hold their ground usually get respect from the marines. There is some good examples of this in Helsreach...one of the Navy fighter wings in that book even decorate their fighters with the Templar cross (an honor that was bestowed upon them during a previous battle in which they fought alongside the Chapter).

I guess if that Guard somehow display courage beyond his duty. He would probably get respect by the marines seeing him doing the deed

Dont know about you guys, but where do marines get off thinking in anyway that they are better to "normal" humans?
They were normal humans once for goodeness sakes!

Humans respect marines because they grow up believing that they are angels of death. I doubt that the average guardsman knows that marines are created and not born.

Heck a normal guardsman is more important to the survival of the imperium, because they can make babies which will keep the species going and a marine cant.

IMHO the only thing that keeps Marines from being obsolete is that a stable plasma gun/pistol STC hasnt been found

They WERE normal humans. Once. Sort of. Except...

Space Marines accept only the most promising candidates, youths who would otherwise have gone on to become great heroes, leaders or warlords among their own people. They were human, but never normal. The mental conditioning aspect of induction interferes with memories of life before they joined the chapter, sometimes obscuring it completely. Moreover, whatever they were before, they are now physical gods and have been since early adulthood. They are the elect, their bodies literally made holy by the enactment of the Emperor's design upon them. They are removed from the concerns of normal people: wealth, family, pain, death: none of these have any hold on Astartes. They will live for centuries, enduring trials and hardships no normal human could master. They were human once, but they will never look back.

That is why only a few chapters retain emotional ties to humanity.

So what will earn the respect of a Space Marine? Deeds. Competence. Stolid belligerence in the face of the enemy. Steadfast obedience of the Emperor's will.

Well Exopheric by the quote your using it sounds to me that space marines are no longer humans at all. At what point does changing a human being so much convert that human into something else completely different.

What does it mean to be human? physical/mental perfection (Astartes) or all our flaws and uniqueness (IG)?

That is what I meant, they are pretty far removed from human. Marines share some human concerns, like duty, honor and glory, achievement. Social motives, basically. They can also have weaknesses like pride and wrath and psychological inflexibility, although in some situations common to Warhammer, those can be virtues. However they can slide into something much worse than human if their sense of self and purpose is undermined, or the conditioning breaks down.

Guard are obviously more human, and easier to relate to. I feel like when marines recognize a human, they do so in the sense of recognizing a kindred spirit rather than a prosaic "Hey, man, nice shot."

Im suprised Rynns world hasnt been mentioned of the Crimson Fists, I dont know about any other fluff surrounding them BUT:-

Pedro Cantor sent a portion of his forces to the Human capital, rather than dig in for a seige in the chapter fortress. And IIRC it was partly because he valued the people, as throughout the beginning of the book Cortez confronts him several times on the subject for trying to have a working relationship with the human populace.

Surely if the Chapter Master wants there to be respect between the people this makes me think this will transfer over to the IG? (back on topic eventually )

Dan

In the book Helsreach(not sure how canon) the Reclusiarch of the Black Templars declares himself "a brother to the Steel Legion that fights for this world"

I'd say that's pretty respectful, especially since I'm fairly certain the Templars aren't in the habit of mingling with the Guard.

Not sure how canon it is now, but I'm sure there was some RT fluff where occasionally SM could commandeer IG forces, and you ended up with (modern equivalent used) PCS with a space marine in it, running the show on the field taking orders from a combined SM/IG command hq.

I thought the Fists and the Scars were also pretty human friendly. But as has been stated, marines will respect truly impressive deeds, no matter who performed them. And let's face it, the Imperium as a whole, including all the Space Marines are pretty much just dancing to the tune played by one Ursarkar Creed, as his sheer tactical genius dwarfs basically the rest of the known universe, combined.

Grey Templar wrote:
Not even the High lords of Terra can tell a marine chapter what to do.

the only person a marine is required to answer to is a marine of higher rank in his own chapter or the Emperor.

Thats not correct actually. The High Lords of Terra can indeed, tell a chapter what to do.
Unless it wants to cease to exist of course.

D.Smith wrote:Im suprised Rynns world hasnt been mentioned of the Crimson Fists, I dont know about any other fluff surrounding them BUT:-

Pedro Cantor sent a portion of his forces to the Human capital, rather than dig in for a seige in the chapter fortress. And IIRC it was partly because he valued the people, as throughout the beginning of the book Cortez confronts him several times on the subject for trying to have a working relationship with the human populace.

Surely if the Chapter Master wants there to be respect between the people this makes me think this will transfer over to the IG? (back on topic eventually )

Dan

Though, Cantor does show compassion for the human populace it is explained that he doesn't want them to be overwhelmed because they do so much of the work of running the planet that would fall on his shoulders otherwise. The Fists offer them protection and the ruling class keep the mundane business in line. Also, how horrible would it look if they turtled inside the fortress while the planet fell around them. It's their homeworld, letting the human population be slaughtered while hiding inside Arx Tyrannus would have been an eternal stain on their honor.

I suspect also that a Chapter Master probably deals a lot more in human relations/talks to other generals/humans more often than many battle brothers. He probably was chosen for the position of Chapter Master because he actually cares about the great scheme of things and the other people on his planet, rather than just. Kill for the Emperor!

Frazzled wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
Not even the High lords of Terra can tell a marine chapter what to do.

the only person a marine is required to answer to is a marine of higher rank in his own chapter or the Emperor.

Thats not correct actually. The High Lords of Terra can indeed, tell a chapter what to do.
Unless it wants to cease to exist of course.

Indeed. For all intents and purposes the High Lords of Terra = the Emperor when it comes to ruling and ordering the IoM. Reading more and more, it's very clear the Emperor is a figurehead more than anything else.

Frazzled wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
Not even the High lords of Terra can tell a marine chapter what to do.

the only person a marine is required to answer to is a marine of higher rank in his own chapter or the Emperor.

Thats not correct actually. The High Lords of Terra can indeed, tell a chapter what to do.
Unless it wants to cease to exist of course.

Depends on the Chapter.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Depends on the Chapter.

You can always go renegade!

tavoittamaton wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Depends on the Chapter.

You can always go renegade!

No, I Just mean ain't no one tell The Space Wolves no nothing.

Grey Templar wrote:Space Marines NEVER take orders from anyone.

they take suggestions.



now, the 13th black crusade was a case of the Space Marines coming to help, and you can't help if you don't know where you are needed.

the Warmaster would tell them where he needed them and they would do it because it was nessacery, not because they had to obey him. they could have walked off at any time.



Not even the High lords of Terra can tell a marine chapter what to do.

the only person a marine is required to answer to is a marine of higher rank in his own chapter or the Emperor.

*hem hem* Inquisition?

phantommaster wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Space Marines NEVER take orders from anyone.

they take suggestions.



now, the 13th black crusade was a case of the Space Marines coming to help, and you can't help if you don't know where you are needed.

the Warmaster would tell them where he needed them and they would do it because it was nessacery, not because they had to obey him. they could have walked off at any time.



Not even the High lords of Terra can tell a marine chapter what to do.

the only person a marine is required to answer to is a marine of higher rank in his own chapter or the Emperor.

*hem hem* Inquisition?

The Inquisition can ask. They don't technically have the power to control marines but it is much better for everyone if they do.
Some inquisitors abuse their power massively...

Astartes Chapters are somewhat outside of the hierarchy of the Imperium, Even Inquisitors are careful not to throw too much weight around with marines. THeir chapter worlds are exempt from any form of guard founding, tithes or common imperial regulation, and "officially" no one commands them except the Emperor

Exopheric wrote:Space Marines accept only the most promising male candidates from their particular recruiting world(s) that happen to be lucky enough to be alive when the Marines have the resources and authority to recruit

Fixed.

Marine recruitment does the best with what it has, but it doesn't necessarily have the best.

Platuan4th wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
Not even the High lords of Terra can tell a marine chapter what to do.

the only person a marine is required to answer to is a marine of higher rank in his own chapter or the Emperor.

Thats not correct actually. The High Lords of Terra can indeed, tell a chapter what to do.
Unless it wants to cease to exist of course.

Indeed. For all intents and purposes the High Lords of Terra = the Emperor when it comes to ruling and ordering the IoM. Reading more and more, it's very clear the Emperor is a figurehead more than anything else.

But the high lords understand tact, they don't want to push a chapter of loyal space marines into that position. This is why the oldest marine chapters still follow their own traditions regarding the Big E and haven't been forced into the Imperial Cult.
There was a Citadel Journal article some years ago that was fascinating, it regarded a Dark Angel successor chapter in the Age of Apostasy when Vandire tried an experiment to see if he could forcibly convert the space marines. He sent the Imperial Fleet to destroy the chapter's homeworld, most of the chapter fought but they sent their scout company away to bear witness.
Non cannon I suppose, but the scout company emerged from the warp mid M40 and joined a planetary rebellion somewhere. Had rules for playing "archangel" squads (veteran marines in scout armor) and infiltrating in crowds of civilians.

I'm under the impression that the High Lords and the Inquisition pick their battles with marine chapters. They do not want to risk insulting a chapter over a small, trifling matter.

But at the same time, they do have the power to force compliance. Both groups have almost unlimited resources at their command. If you accept FW lore as canon, then the High Lords have the Minotaurs chapter for just this reason. To keep the more willful chapters in line.

From a scientific standpoint, Astartes are no longer the same species as humans, as they cannot interbreed. They are technically Homo Astartes, not Homo Sapiens.


As for respect, I think that I read that most Marines have a respect for the Death Korp of Krieg, just because of the stoic way that they wage war.

From what I've read in the various Horus Heresy books and Imperial Armor books, it seems that the Guard and Space Marines have a distant roll in campaigns. If you get to read the Assault on Castorel Novem, you see how the Raven Guard interact with their guard counterparts. I believe that in the end, a Space Marine doesn't really 'respect' or 'hold high' anyone who dies doing their duty.

Space marines don't crave fame outright, they live to fight, it's all they're meant to do, so in the grand scheme of things, I don't know that they really think in the way of 'respecting' them. Just a fellow worker who is under-altered to do the same task they are sometimes sent to undertake. That doesn't mean that they feel put out to help humans, which is quite obvious in many books.

Inquisitors speak with the authority of the Emperor himself. They can therefore give orders to the Astartes...

But of course no Inquisitor would be foolish enough to put this to the test. So they request. And no Astartes Chapter Master would refuse without good reason.

IIRC raven guard fight for the guardsmen on kastorel novem even though Imperial commanders have abbandoned them

Miraclefish wrote:Inquisitors speak with the authority of the Emperor himself. They can therefore give orders to the Astartes...

But of course no Inquisitor would be foolish enough to put this to the test. So they request. And no Astartes Chapter Master would refuse without good reason.

True, but so do the Astartes.

Space Marines are literally the Children of the Emperor. the true nobility of the Imperium.


the High Lords are little more then advisors/regents. they can advise, and may even have the power to force compliance, but they don't have the authority to do so.

there is a difference between power and authority. Power is the Ability to do something. Authority is the right.



the High Lords really only have the authority to found Astartes chapters. once the chapter is founded they really have no authority to tell a chapter to do something.

the High Lords could order a chapter to do something. What the Chapter Master does is his descision and he really has the final word.


Now, a chapter that disobeys the High Lords would certaintly be under scrutiny for why they didn't do the order, but a chapter, as an autonomous organization, has its own operations it is conducting aqnd will weigh the needs of the Imperium against each other. the survival of the Chapter takes presidence over all other problems.

If a chapter was under strength(just took some major losses) and an order from the High Lords came in for them to join a crusade they would most likely not follow the order. the failure of a crusade will hurt the Imperium less then the loss of a Chapter would. the Chapter could, after regaining their numbers, retake a hundred worlds and participate in dozens more crusades. who cares if this one little crusade fails or X planet falls. the crusade or planet is NOT worth the loss of a chapter(or even keeping a chapter at a basically useless level of operatability for even longer)


and with a thousandish Chapters in play at any one time, the High Lords probably never give direct orders to Marine Chapters anyway. it would simply take too much time to even do.


Marine Chapters are independent of other organizations(some might say the other organizations are independent of them) for a reason. so that no one organization or man holds absolute power at any one time. Thats why the HH happened in the first place and the Imperium has all its problems in the first place.

Grey Templar wrote:True, but so do the Astartes.

No, Astartes have nowhere near as much political power and clout as the Inquisition.

Astartes might be heroes... some of them at any rate... but the Imperium's many organizations hold grudges for longer than either man or astartes will live, and the Astartes in general have done many things to earn the ire of its various organizations. They have no stated authority, they are merely honored warriors, aloof from society. A society which does not always take kindly whenever they get off of their little monasteries and try to boss anyone around. They might have theoretical authority, but it doesn't mean anything in practice when dealing with the innumerable powerful and power-hungry organizations of the Imperium.

In comparison, The Inquisition has actual authority, and every moment of its existence the various Inquisitors are constantly strengthening that authority. Their authority is real, written in law and deed, used, practiced, perfected. Even if they do not desire to overarch themselves with overtly exerting their legal power, they have far more subtle political clout that they can pull, and are always building up more and more of these strings to the point where they make a fine tapestry of connections and favors owed. Their authority, unlike that of the Astartes, is real, not theoretical.

Yes, against orders, the Raven Guard break formation to save those remnants of the Elysian force on Novem, and in fact are able to save some of them, which would have never survived without their aid. It's just sad to realize that those Guardsman that survived were just sacrificed 2 years later as members of another IG unit.

The Inquisition can only make orders with the approval of the High Lords of Terra. Even with the Vraks war, the Council of the Inquisition petitioned to take over command. Although the Inquisition works outside of the normal circles of the Imperium that does not mean they answer to no one. They are just of higher rank and status then the Astartes Chapters, although Astartes can do as they like in most cases.

Cottonjaw wrote:I'm fairly sure Commisar Yarrick and Ursarkar Creed could tell pretty much any space marine ranked captain or below to go play in traffic.

Nope not Scarius, or Captain Angelous, or a few others.
Another chapter I believe is the Salamanders who help everyone like the guard.
Raven Guard go out of their way to save imperial guard regiments.

Space marines are children of the emperor, they can be ordered to only by the Highlords of terra, and an inquisitor only if he has the balls enough to ask a chapter council. Remember there is not only just the Chapter Master, there is also the Chapter Council.

SM won't ignore a guard regiment in need unless they have more important things to do.
However, very few guard officers have the respect or the rank to order an SM about without his permission.
Thier rank structures are outside of each other and would only join if they pledged themselves under a Warmaster.

Melissia wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:True, but so do the Astartes.

No, Astartes have nowhere near as much political power and clout as the Inquisition.

Astartes might be heroes... some of them at any rate... but the Imperium's many organizations hold grudges for longer than either man or astartes will live, and the Astartes in general have done many things to earn the ire of its various organizations. They have no stated authority, they are merely honored warriors, aloof from society. A society which does not always take kindly whenever they get off of their little monasteries and try to boss anyone around. They might have theoretical authority, but it doesn't mean anything in practice when dealing with the innumerable powerful and power-hungry organizations of the Imperium.

In comparison, The Inquisition has actual authority, and every moment of its existence the various Inquisitors are constantly strengthening that authority. Their authority is real, written in law and deed, used, practiced, perfected. Even if they do not desire to overarch themselves with overtly exerting their legal power, they have far more subtle political clout that they can pull, and are always building up more and more of these strings to the point where they make a fine tapestry of connections and favors owed. Their authority, unlike that of the Astartes, is real, not theoretical.

Inquisition does not have absolute authority, that power resides with the HighLords of Terra, and the Admech.

I never said they did. Only that their political clout was far, far greater than that of the Astartes.

Well no duh, The astrates can't have political power, because if they did they would be too powerful.

IMO, aside from rightly high ranked officers (Yarrick, Creed, etc.), I think there's only one guardsman that commands enough respect to do anything close to "Ordering" a Space Marine around.

Ollanius Pius.

Asherian Command wrote:Well no duh, The astrates can't have political power, because if they did they would be too powerful.

Sure they can.
If enough people support a chapter then the chapter can do far more things than a chapter with no support can.
This tends to be limited to the older chapters however but some of the newer ones that have formed relationships with other Imperial organisations also have some political power.
Obviously an Inquisitor will have more power but Inquisitors are sneaky and tend to know the best way to wield it unless they are idiots.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
Not even the High lords of Terra can tell a marine chapter what to do.

the only person a marine is required to answer to is a marine of higher rank in his own chapter or the Emperor.

Thats not correct actually. The High Lords of Terra can indeed, tell a chapter what to do.
Unless it wants to cease to exist of course.

Depends on the Chapter.

Thats what Horus thought

High Lords vs. Chapter equals dead chapter, unless they hide like girly boys in a warp storm.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

tavoittamaton wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Depends on the Chapter.

You can always go renegade!

No, I Just mean ain't no one tell The Space Wolves no nothing.

Battlefleet Terra does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

purplefood wrote:

phantommaster wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Space Marines NEVER take orders from anyone.

they take suggestions.



now, the 13th black crusade was a case of the Space Marines coming to help, and you can't help if you don't know where you are needed.

the Warmaster would tell them where he needed them and they would do it because it was nessacery, not because they had to obey him. they could have walked off at any time.



Not even the High lords of Terra can tell a marine chapter what to do.

the only person a marine is required to answer to is a marine of higher rank in his own chapter or the Emperor.

*hem hem* Inquisition?

The Inquisition can ask. They don't technically have the power to control marines but it is much better for everyone if they do.
Some inquisitors abuse their power massively...

To paraphrase a Deep Space Nine quote:
"If you don't do what the Inquisition says then they send the Grey Knights. Then you die."

The Inquisition has to ask, sure.

But they can ask pretty damned convincingly. Such as having the power to prevent chapters from recruiting, or force them on a suicidal crusade, or sanction them to prevent them from getting as many resources (and thus being unable to repair or produce new equipment), or simply wiping them out in the most extreme cases.

Naturally they wouldn't do this to a first or second founding chapter unless they wet completely and utterly to chaos, but these chapters tend to be the most loyal anyway (even if a few of them are troublesome, their loyalty isn't doubted). Not so much so for the later chapters, to whom an Inquisitorial request is often an order in all but name.

Something from the 15th founding, or the 20th founding, or whatever other late foundings? They'd definitely not want to say no to an Inquisitor. Their ties to their progenitors, if they even have them, are weak. But having an Inquisitor owe them favors? THAT they can rely on in tough times.

n3koj1n wrote:IMO, aside from rightly high ranked officers (Yarrick, Creed, etc.), I think there's only one guardsman that commands enough respect to do anything close to "Ordering" a Space Marine around.

Ollanius Pius.

Balls of STEEL!

All Hail Ollanius Pius!

High Lords vs. Chapter equals dead chapter, unless they hide like girly boys in a warp storm.

That might also depend on the chapter.

A First Founding chapter like BA, DA or SW would be extremely hard to eradicate and leave none of their successors or other chapters wondering if fighting for the Imperium is worth it after all; the destruction of a Loyal First Founder would shake the very foundations of the Imperium and the chances of younger Chapters turning to Chaos will be greatly increased; what is the point in fighting for something that is just as willing to sweep you aside as if you were an annoying insect?

There is also the chance that other founding chapters decide to help the one under attack, after all they've fought and existed side-by-side for thousands of years and formed a bond between them that strengthens with every battle they fight alongside each other in and with every year that passes; if you attack one, you attack them all.

If it was High Lords vs Younger Chapter, like a 21st founding, then they'd have a lot more power. Who will miss a chapter that has barely forged its name in history? Whilst the Dark Angels or Ultramarines are names that are revered from one side of the galaxy to the other, what is the chance that they will know Chapter X of <Insert latest founding here>?

The younger and less influential and important the chapter, the more likely the High lords are going to be able to do something about them; the older, wiser, more influential, more powerful and more important the chapter, the harder time they will have until they try it on a loyal 1st Founder, where they stand a very small chance.

What would happen if the Blood Angels or Dark Angels turned around and said, "You know what, no; shove it up your arse." to a High Lord? My guess is very little, if anything.

That might also depend on the chapter.

A First Founding chapter like BA, DA or SW would be extremely hard to eradicate and leave none of their successors or other chapters wondering if fighting for the Imperium is worth it after all; the destruction of a Loyal First Founder would shake the very foundations of the Imperium and the chances of younger Chapters turning to Chaos will be greatly increased; what is the point in fighting for something that is just as willing to sweep you aside as if you were an annoying insect?
***That’s how the real world operates, why not here? If a dictatorship is threatened and other elements begin to crack those elements are dealt with extremely harshly. You’re positing that marine chapters effectively rebel.


There is also the chance that other founding chapters decide to help the one under attack, after all they've fought and existed side-by-side for thousands of years and formed a bond between them that strengthens with every battle they fight alongside each other in and with every year that passes; if you attack one, you attack them all.
***In the words of our spiritual founder and guiding light: “so its treason then?”


What would happen if the Blood Angels or Dark Angels turned around and said, "You know what, no; shove it up your arse." to a High Lord? My guess is very little, if anything.
****Battle fleet Bakka tears them a new donkey-cave. Ask Huron Blackheart how that turned out. They are traitors then and will be treated as such. In fact the reprisals would be doubly harsh to make sure no other chapters follow suit. Withouth support, hunted by the Imperial Navy, fellow marines, GKs, Imquisitorial ships, and the Admech with their special toys…no the glory boys will be running for the nearest warpstorm faster than you can say “Nova Shells…INCOMING!”
The glory boys are useful and they are tough, but they are watched. There will be no second Horus Heresy.

Can't recall where I read it, or if it was even canon, but there was a great little story about a Guardsman getting some "respect" from Astartes.

Basic outline: his platoon is massacred and he says F*** this! I'm running away! Sneaking here and there he eventually literally bumps into two space marines. Scared shitless he pertends he's the sole survivor and makes himself out to be a hero and is looking to return to the front lines.

The Astartes, knowing he's pretty far from the front lines, wink at each other and pertend to play along.

They tell him they have need of a hero, and all he needs to do is take a message up the road all stealthy like. Thinking that it will take him further from the front lines and away from the marines, he accepts.

Of course, stealthy for a guardsman means making enough noise to alert every enemy comabatant (i think they were orks) within a mile. When the enemy attacks (with melee weapons for some reason) the Guardsman nearly sh**'s himself and is firing his lasgun like a madman! It's at this point that the two marines reveal themselves, having used the guardsman to lure out an enemy patrol far behind the front lines. (slaughter of like 50 enemy by 2 Astartes ensues. The guardsman may have gotten one kill.)

The Marines, impressed with the fact he lived (whether really impressed or pretending is left to the reader) and fought "like an Astartes" give him a medal (it may have been a purity seal, I don't really remember) and tell him he has honored the Emperor with his fighting this day.

Filled with pride at his actions he then goes right back to the front lines to rejoin his company. Where his Commissar immediately goes "Where the H*** have you been! Playing at Space Marine?! A likely story! Get in there and fight for the Emperor!" And for the first time ever, the Guardsman understands this rhetoric.
***End Story***

Avatar 720 wrote:What would happen if the Blood Angels or Dark Angels turned around and said, "You know what, no; shove it up your arse." to a High Lord? My guess is very little, if anything.

THAT all depends on the personality of said high lord as well. Remember, the reach of the Imperium is long indeed-- they can crush any of the chapters, including the ultramarines or black templars if necessary. It's mostly that they don't want to, they're too valuable, and they've proven their loyalty even if they're troublesome at times, and it's not worth the large amount of effort it would take to stamp them out for their troublesome nature. And yes, it would take a LOT of effort. There's better things they can do with the time and resources it would take.

Id say that any man standing side by side in the face of true hell knowing that they porbably wont live, would get respect from a true SM. The Hounour alone but also standing together as Battle brothers would, but with less protection demands respects.

The Inquisition asking is more of a technicality...
Sm chapters are proud of their independance and if they percieve a threat to that then they start to get defensive.
If an Inq. asks instead of ordering the SM chapter feels unthreatened and will probably help.

purplefood wrote:The Inquisition asking is more of a technicality...
Sm chapters are proud of their independance and if they percieve a threat to that then they start to get defensive.
If an Inq. asks instead of ordering the SM chapter feels unthreatened and will probably help.

Of course all chapters like working with the inquisition

Asherian Command wrote:

purplefood wrote:The Inquisition asking is more of a technicality...
Sm chapters are proud of their independance and if they percieve a threat to that then they start to get defensive.
If an Inq. asks instead of ordering the SM chapter feels unthreatened and will probably help.

Of course all chapters like working with the inquisition

They might not like it but it is their duty. The Inquisition are servants of the Emperor and deserve all the assistance they need from whomever they need it from.
Marines above all do their duty.

Most chapters will help the inquisition upon request. The ones that don't are the exception, not the rule.

After all, it's better to be friends with an inquisitor than enemies.

Grey Templar wrote:Space Marines NEVER take orders from anyone.

they take suggestions.



now, the 13th black crusade was a case of the Space Marines coming to help, and you can't help if you don't know where you are needed.

the Warmaster would tell them where he needed them and they would do it because it was nessacery, not because they had to obey him. they could have walked off at any time.



Not even the High lords of Terra can tell a marine chapter what to do.

the only person a marine is required to answer to is a marine of higher rank in his own chapter or the Emperor.

It only makes sense. A SM chapter is a rapier versus an IG sledgehammer. I SM captain is going to consider it dubious that an IG commander is going to fully grasp the capabilities of his force. The ability to drop pod, to thunderhawk the unit. The fact that while well armored it would be foolish to waste SM on a frontal charge unless that was the only way.

But then, the SM isn't going to be anywhere near as good at commanding Guard as a Guard general is either, so it kinda goes both ways. They tend to stay out of eachothers' business, and only offer advice at most.

This thread has mutated into this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352803.page
So to quote myself from there:

Basically you can't make a blanket statement about the Space Marines or Inquisition.

Each Chapter and actually each individual Inquisitor is its own political entity with wildly varying amounts of clout and authority.

One needs to keep in mind that almost no faction of the Imperium of Man is truly unified and stable. A Highlord of Terra might have to constantly fend of political rivals which try to ursurp his position while the average Inquisitor's authority might be in constant flux, depending on the number of allies within his conclave, the cooperation of other powerfull Imperial organisations ( Administratum, Arbites, Mechanicus... ).
So yes, a cunning chaptermaster, who doesn't constantly behave like some antisozial manchild, might have enough political clout to get away with ocassional demonstrations of his "independence" even against the wishes of seemingly powerfull individuals, especially when his chapter is known for it's heroism.

Regarding the op's question, i think it depends on the chapter but i do not think that the majority of marines deems the average soldier to be worthy of their special notice. I mean, why should they?
After all paying back their eternal debt to the Emprah in blood is something that can be expected of every loyal human and does not deserve any special recomendation, especialy not in the minds
of those whose entire life is not much more than a series of bloody battles against the very worst that the galaxy has to offer, with no chance of retirement whatsoever.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:This thread has mutated into this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352803.page
So to quote myself from there:

Basically you can't make a blanket statement about the Space Marines or Inquisition.

Each Chapter and actually each individual Inquisitor is its own political entity with wildly varying amounts of clout and authority.

But you can make general statements. Besides, half a dozen inquisitors pooling their resources is far more common than half a dozen chapters doing the same

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:This thread has mutated into this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352803.page
So to quote myself from there:

Basically you can't make a blanket statement about the Space Marines or Inquisition.

Each Chapter and actually each individual Inquisitor is its own political entity with wildly varying amounts of clout and authority.

But you can make general statements. Besides, half a dozen inquisitors pooling their resources is far more common than half a dozen chapters doing the same

Not really. Inter-Inquisition rivilries involving half a dozen Inquisitors shooting themselves in the foot and generally just dicking around screwing each other (no innuendo intended): Now that's common.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:This thread has mutated into this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352803.page
So to quote myself from there:

Basically you can't make a blanket statement about the Space Marines or Inquisition.

Each Chapter and actually each individual Inquisitor is its own political entity with wildly varying amounts of clout and authority.

But you can make general statements. Besides, half a dozen inquisitors pooling their resources is far more common than half a dozen chapters doing the same

Not really.

No really.

Sure, there's always competition and all, but Dark Heresy leaves me with the impression that each sector and subsector has its own cabal of inquisitors who meet to discuss important things.

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:This thread has mutated into this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352803.page
So to quote myself from there:

Basically you can't make a blanket statement about the Space Marines or Inquisition.

Each Chapter and actually each individual Inquisitor is its own political entity with wildly varying amounts of clout and authority.

But you can make general statements. Besides, half a dozen inquisitors pooling their resources is far more common than half a dozen chapters doing the same

Not really.

No really.

Sure, there's always competition and all, but Dark Heresy leaves me with the impression that each sector and subsector has its own cabal of inquisitors who meet to discuss important things.

. That's how the Inquistion rolls.

If by "discuss" you mean "call each other radicals for having differing methods", then you're absolutely right!

I'm not so certain about the "half a dozen Chapters pooling their resources" bit though. I mean, most instances where Astartes are involved--it's not just one single Chapter. It's usually several big ones providing a 'bulk' of the Astartes contingent, and some smaller ones providing specialist units.

Kanluwen wrote:If by "discuss" you mean "call each other radicals for having differing methods", then you're absolutely right!

That depends entirely on the severity of the situation. Even radicals and puritans will put aside their differences... temporarily... if something is presenting itself as a major threat to their power base in specific or the Imperium in general.

Kanluwen wrote:I'm not so certain about the "half a dozen Chapters pooling their resources" bit though. I mean, most instances where Astartes are involved--it's not just one single Chapter. It's usually several big ones providing a 'bulk' of the Astartes contingent, and some smaller ones providing specialist units.

That's only for incredibly major battles though, not regular scheduled meetings...

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:If by "discuss" you mean "call each other radicals for having differing methods", then you're absolutely right!

That depends entirely on the severity of the situation. Even radicals and puritans will put aside their differences... temporarily... if something is presenting itself as a major threat to their power base in specific or the Imperium in general.

So the Necroteuch Affair wasn't severe enough for a Radical to not try killing a Puritan?

Kanluwen wrote:I'm not so certain about the "half a dozen Chapters pooling their resources" bit though. I mean, most instances where Astartes are involved--it's not just one single Chapter. It's usually several big ones providing a 'bulk' of the Astartes contingent, and some smaller ones providing specialist units.

That's only for incredibly major battles though, not regular scheduled meetings...

Dark Angels do it. There's a few brief references to the Dark Angels and their Successors having 'councils' gathered at The Rock.

Isn't that because they're just kinda pissy about the codex astartes and never wanted to be split into separate chapters to begin with?

Mind you, I have that impression about black templars too, so YMMV.

Melissia wrote:Isn't that because they're just kinda pissy about the codex astartes and never wanted to be split into separate chapters to begin with?

No, that's because they're up to something...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:Isn't that because they're just kinda pissy about the codex astartes and never wanted to be split into separate chapters to begin with?

Mind you, I have that impression about black templars too, so YMMV.

Yes, BTs not fans of the Codex at all.

Melissia wrote:Isn't that because they're just kinda pissy about the codex astartes and never wanted to be split into separate chapters to begin with?

Y'know, that's a good question. I'm fairly certain that Jonson wasn't around when the Codex Astartes was laid down, having vanished after the Battle of Caliban.

But it seems like they went along with it pretty peaceably. I mean, outside of the 1st+2nd Companies--they're Codex standard, through and through.

Mind you, I have that impression about black templars too, so YMMV.

Black Templars definitely were opposed to the Codex, but that's not really a surprise considering Rogal Dorn was opposed to it.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
No, that's because they're up to something...

I like to think of it as kind of like an office meeting.

Ray: "So Dave, what Fallen do we have left?"
Dave: "Well, there's Steve and Bob and Ralph...that bastard Ralph has got to go."
Ray: "Agreed Dave. Now, for tea!"
Dave: "Ahem. You forgot, Ray..."
Ray: "ACK! You're right! Ancient Mark come forth! We have cake for your birthday!"

...But uh. No, I really haven't thought much about the meetings.

Melissia wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:True, but so do the Astartes.

No, Astartes have nowhere near as much political power and clout as the Inquisition.

Astartes might be heroes... some of them at any rate... but the Imperium's many organizations hold grudges for longer than either man or astartes will live, and the Astartes in general have done many things to earn the ire of its various organizations. They have no stated authority, they are merely honored warriors, aloof from society. A society which does not always take kindly whenever they get off of their little monasteries and try to boss anyone around. They might have theoretical authority, but it doesn't mean anything in practice when dealing with the innumerable powerful and power-hungry organizations of the Imperium.

In comparison, The Inquisition has actual authority, and every moment of its existence the various Inquisitors are constantly strengthening that authority. Their authority is real, written in law and deed, used, practiced, perfected. Even if they do not desire to overarch themselves with overtly exerting their legal power, they have far more subtle political clout that they can pull, and are always building up more and more of these strings to the point where they make a fine tapestry of connections and favors owed. Their authority, unlike that of the Astartes, is real, not theoretical.

Indeed, indeed. The problem with the Astartes, though, is that their perceived military might kinda lends them authority in a lot of situations. Whereas the average inquisitor is usually fairly subtle (take that with a pinch of salt), the Astartes wield a kind in-your-face authority, and this actually counts for a great deal in the Imperium, as was the case when Vandire tried to force the Space Wolves into compliance, and got his forces, well, forcibly removed from Fenris.

But what Thor did to the forces that tried to kill him was far more epic IMO.

That's the Ecclesiarchy though rather than the Inquisition, and we're already rather off topic talking about the Inquisition anyway.

Thor did show how hard as nails he was, yes
Anyway, yeah, depending on the chapter/experiences of the Sm with Guard/courage and ability of the guardsmen they find themselves around, respect varies a great deal.

Melissia wrote:

Astartes might be heroes... some of them at any rate... but the Imperium's many organizations hold grudges for longer than either man or astartes will live, and the Astartes in general have done many things to earn the ire of its various organizations. They have no stated authority, they are merely honored warriors, aloof from society. A society which does not always take kindly whenever they get off of their little monasteries and try to boss anyone around. They might have theoretical authority, but it doesn't mean anything in practice when dealing with the innumerable powerful and power-hungry organizations of the Imperium.

In comparison, The Inquisition has actual authority, and every moment of its existence the various Inquisitors are constantly strengthening that authority. Their authority is real, written in law and deed, used, practiced, perfected. Even if they do not desire to overarch themselves with overtly exerting their legal power, they have far more subtle political clout that they can pull, and are always building up more and more of these strings to the point where they make a fine tapestry of connections and favors owed. Their authority, unlike that of the Astartes, is real, not theoretical.

Bravo, nice post.

Indeed, indeed. The problem with the Astartes, though, is that their perceived military might kinda lends them authority in a lot of situations. Whereas the average inquisitor is usually fairly subtle (take that with a pinch of salt), the Astartes wield a kind in-your-face authority, and this actually counts for a great deal in the Imperium, as was the case when Vandire tried to force the Space Wolves into compliance, and got his forces, well, forcibly removed from Fenris.

Just to nitpick here, but I don't think it was actually Lord Vandire that had Fenris attacked but another power crazy member of the Ecclessiarchy.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Yes, BTs not fans of the Codex at all.

As evidenced by their Blatant disregard for it.

Read the ultramarines novels, I think any of the ultramarines of their successor chapters like and respect the guards, for their grit despite being smaller and weaker.

I'd say most respect them as they respect those that revere the emperor and will give their lives to aid them. Sure some chapters might be a bit wacky, but I think most will be more like captain Ventris. Nobel, selfless etc

mattyrm wrote:Read the ultramarines novels, I think any of the ultramarines of their successor chapters like and respect the guards, for their grit despite being smaller and weaker.

I'd say most respect them as they respect those that revere the emperor and will give their lives to aid them. Sure some chapters might be a bit wacky, but I think most will be more like captain Ventris. Nobel, selfless etc

Meh, i sure as hell hope that most chapters do not act like Captain, i wipe my but with the codex astartes, Uriel Ventris. In fact i strongly despise any attempt to humanise spacemarines.

Yes, just not all Guard and from all Marines.

It has also been a pretty common device in both BL books and the DoW video games to use tension between SM and Guard units that have been thrown together in a combat zone for dramamtic effect. The formula generally works like this:

1. SM are facing an enemy too strong for them alone to defeat.
2. As a result, they are forced to fight with the Guard.
3. Many of the SM begin to complain about the military ineffeciency and/or weakness of the Guard.
4. One of the SM leaders says, "Aww, they aren't so bad."
5. Fighting ensues. The Guard earn grudging respect from the SM for their grit and determination.
6. The Imperium wins the day, and the SM and Guard part ways with the previously complaining SM having gained a newfound respect for the Guard.

Caveat: If the Grey Knigths/Deamons are invloved, all surviving guardsmen are summarily executed, and the SM have their memories wiped.

Not always. Sometimes the inquisition deems certain guardsmen or even guard units too valuable to execute, so they mindwipe them of the experience while keeping their valuable skills.

These would of course be the most experienced and capable units, but it does happen.

Melissia wrote:Not always. Sometimes the inquisition deems certain guardsmen or even guard units too valuable to execute, so they mindwipe them of the experience while keeping their valuable skills.

These would of course be the most experienced and capable units, but it does happen.

I like this interpretation better myself, but I was attempting to make an oblique reference to the new GK codex. There is a bit in there where the Space Wolves intervened to allow some IG storm troopers to escape following a campaing against some daemons. These units were then hunted down by the GK/Inquisition, to include the murder of millions who might have had any contact with the storm troopers. Given that storm troopers are renowned for their extra training and experience (to me, they read as the IG equivalent of SEALs and Green Berets), this would mean the GK pretty much consider any IG unit to be expendable.

Which just means the Inquisition didn't value those particular guardsmen very highly compared ot how much of a risk they provided.

The Inquisition deals with things on a case by case, Inquisitor by Inquisitor basis.

Melissia wrote:Which just means the Inquisition didn't value those particular guardsmen very highly compared ot how much of a risk they provided.

The Inquisition deals with things on a case by case, Inquisitor by Inquisitor basis.

And that is the view I personally subscribe to myself. Although, the new GK codex makes it seem like there is much less flexibility when the GK, and not just an Inquistor and his private forces, are involved. In that case, it appears the Guard units are sacrificed for secrecy's sake, even if any Inquistors involved want to keep them alive.

which is probably just matt ward being a moron more than anything. Secrecy can be maintained with a mindwipe while keeping the soldier's valuable skills.

Melissia wrote:which is probably just matt ward being a moron more than anything. Secrecy can be maintained with a mindwipe while keeping the soldier's valuable skills.

No.

Look at the 1st War for Armaggedon. All the Guard were wiped out. Indeed IIRC the entire population was gulaged.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/First_War_for_Armageddon

Although they had won, the victorious Armageddon soldiers were doomed from the start. They had gained knowledge of the existence of Chaos, and been exposed to its corruption. The Inquisition had all of the people who fought on the planet, except for the Space Marines, sterilized and placed in work camps, with their world being re-colonized by people from other regions of space with no knowledge of the war. Logan Grimnar battled long and hard to prevent this, but he failed and has never forgiven the Imperium for doing what Chaos had failed to. He saw it as betraying the people who had honorably fought for their homes and for the Imperium.

Melissia wrote:which is probably just matt ward being a moron more than anything. Secrecy can be maintained with a mindwipe while keeping the soldier's valuable skills.

No more a moron than you, me or anyone else.

Frazzled wrote:Look at the 1st War for Armaggedon. All the Guard were wiped out.

Melissia wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Look at the 1st War for Armaggedon. All the Guard were wiped out.

Yes, but hinting that that is what happens every single time, no exception, seems like it would be wrong given the immense variation in the Inquisition. Hell, at least a radical would possibly try to save some.

Meh, don't need that many guys in your retinue. GKs very much have a "Kill 'em all and let the Emperor sort 'em out" attitude when it comes to normal people.

Frazzled wrote:Pure supposition, but I'd proffer those who survive a full on demonic outbreak with their sanity have just been "volunteered" for a lifetime career as part of the local inquisitor's retinue...

That's pretty much what I had in mind too

Frazzled wrote:Pure supposition, but I'd proffer those who survive a full on demonic outbreak with their sanity have just been "volunteered" for a lifetime career as part of the local inquisitor's retinue...

In fact, given the inquisitor, there's a chance that the poor sap was "volunteered" even *before* his or her involvement in the demonic outbreak; he just wasn't aware of it until later.


Getting back to space marines, the SW codex mentions one instance in which the Wolves ran interference against the Inquisition. During a campaign against Chaos forces, one inquisitor managed to figure out how to get the different Chaos factions present to turn on each other. His fellow inquisitors didn't appreciate that kind of creativity and attempted to arrest him, but the Wolves covered for the inquisitor in question until he'd managed to make his escape. More than likely the Wolves didn't start shooting at the Inquisitors attempting to make the arrest, but they almost certainly stonewalled and occasionally acted as if they might "accidentally" discharge weapons at the wrong moment.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Meh, don't need that many guys in your retinue. GKs very much have a "Kill 'em all and let the Emperor sort 'em out" attitude when it comes to normal people.

I'm thinking inquisitors not GK's.

Inquisitors often accompany or precede GKs though, as daemonhunter inquisitors often are the ones that summon them.

Melissia wrote:Inquisitors often accompany or precede GKs though, as daemonhunter inquisitors often are the ones that summon them.

Yep. Would make excellent background fluff on part of the Inquisitor's retinue/henchmen if you were wont to do that.