Two quick questions that a friend and I had last night when using the new codex:

1) Can you use the 30" teleport shunt as a scout move?

2) When using the 30" teleport shunt from or into difficult terrain, do you take a dangerous terrain test?

Thanks in advance!

1) yes. the game has started by this point. Ref: you can use smoke launchers during scout moves
2) apparently not, as youre not moving as JI at this point. Weird.

1) What about the argument that shunting is not a normal move, you can only do a normal move as a scout move, therefore no shunt scout move?

2) That's what I thought as well, tbh. BUT, I can see the argument being made for taking tests as they are using their jump packs, just in a special way.

1) Shunting is normal for a teleporter. Same as TB is normal for a bike, and so on.

2) they are not "Moving as JI" - so they dont take the tests, RAW

Actually, per the rulebook the game doesn't start until after Scout moves. All three standard rulebook scenarios:

Deploy any infiltrators and make any scout moves.

Start the game!

If the shunt can be done "instead of moving normally" then any time you are able to move normally you could use your shunt move (don't have the codex to get the exact wording though).

As for DT, the rules don't say anything about "moving as JI" triggering, they actually say that you take the test if they "use their jump packs" to move. This may not have a hard definition, but considering you use the teleporter to do the 30" move, I'd say you have to take DT if triggered.

Yeah as it stands Nos is right on both counts the BA FaQ cleared up that once per game counts for during scout moves. Likewise currently the RaW of the shunt isn't a jump pack move so it wouldn't trigger a DT. However IF that gets FaQ'd I'd suggest the most likely response is that you do take a DT.

FlingitNow wrote:Yeah as it stands Nos is right on both counts the BA FaQ cleared up that once per game counts for during scout moves.

Smoke launchers, right? I dunno, still seems a little iffy to me.

Yep, they allow you to use Smoke Launchers, whcih are also "once per game", during Scout Moves.

just me being possibly ignorant..... but anytime a unit enters moves through or leaves difficult terrain, don't they test? its not dangerous terrain, but i also thought that if you deepstrike/disembark into Diff Terrain a dangerous terrain check was required?

and is the shunt not a teleport/deepstrike like move? (i havent read the dex so i dont know....im just asking)

"Units with personal teleporters are Jump Infantry. Once per game, they unit can elect to make a teleport shunt instead of moving. If making a teleport shunt, the unit immediately makes a move of up to 30" in any direction. This move cannot end on top of another unit or in impassible terrain, but ignores intervening unis, terrain, and so on. A unit that moves via a teleport shunt cannot assault the same turn, although it can shoot or run as normal. The unit counts as having moved."
pg28, Codex: Grey Knights

"Once per game, after completing its move, a vehicle with smoke launchers can trigger them (it doesn't matter how far it moved)."
pg62, BRB

"Q: Can a Baal Predator use smoke launchers during its Scout move?" (p36)
A: Yes."
pg2, Blood Angels FAQ 1.1 (Latest)

So, does this put to bed that argument about Shunt Scouting? The whole "the game starts after Scout moves" is moot thanks to the Blood Angels FAQ. And nowhere does it say what a "normal" move is, but given Turbo-Boosting is not a "normal" move (that being the standard 12" movement for Bikes), I figure that Shunting for a Scout move will be perfectly legal.

Also, I don't see anywhere in the Teleporters that specify it counts as moving like Jump Infantry, just moving. This doesn't seem to indicate one way or another, but I wouldn't think so until a FAQ says otherwise, simply because it doesn't say it does.

Darth - disembarking does not trigger a Dang test, just any difficult test (or dangerous if the ground is actually dangerous, for example dismebarking into a wrecked vehicle), and the shunt is NOT deepstrike.

In a permissive rule set, whenever you don't have a specific rule for something, you fall back on a less specific rule and apply that one. Somehow, ever since the GK codex became available, lots and lots of people seem to be under the impression that rules have to specifcly state whether they do nothing special. The solution offered then is to either panic and run around your gaming table waving your hands in the air, screaming for a FAQ, or pretend the rule crashes and shows a error pop-up telling you there is no way to solve the issue. Both are wrong. You do not need permission for applying less specific rules if there are no specific rules.

In this case, as it does not specify a special way of ending its move, it moves as any infantry/MC would. If he shunts into a mine field he takes a dangerous terrain test, if he ends up in a forest, he doesn't.

Jidmah wrote:
In this case, as it does not specify a special way of ending its move, it moves as any infantry/MC would. If he shunts into a mine field he takes a dangerous terrain test, if he ends up in a forest, he doesn't.

Unless said forest is on fire and infested by daemons.

Genius! Why didn't GW think of that?

Don't make me come over there and stomp all over you:
"Grey Knights threat all demons as dangerous terrain."

somerandomdude wrote:If the shunt can be done "instead of moving normally" then any time you are able to move normally you could use your shunt move (don't have the codex to get the exact wording though).

The whole "before the game starts" argument is a moot argument (and a pretty pedantic one at that).

The real reason shunt scouting can not be done is because it is not a normal move. It is, in fact, done "instead of moving". The "instead of moving" outlines it as a special ability that overrides your ability to move. This makes it a special and, therefore, not normal move. I don't think scout shunting is legal.

Except that is incorrect, as you can turboboost during a scout move. So, youre wrong there.

"normal" means "whatever is normal for that model" == "normal is to be able to shunt onc e per game"

em_en_oh_pee wrote:"Units with personal teleporters are Jump Infantry. Once per game, they unit can elect to make a teleport shunt instead of moving. If making a teleport shunt, the unit immediately makes a move of up to 30" in any direction. This move cannot end on top of another unit or in impassible terrain, but ignores intervening unis, terrain, and so on. A unit that moves via a teleport shunt cannot assault the same turn, although it can shoot or run as normal. The unit counts as having moved."
pg28, Codex: Grey Knights

"Once per game, after completing its move, a vehicle with smoke launchers can trigger them (it doesn't matter how far it moved)."
pg62, BRB

"Q: Can a Baal Predator use smoke launchers during its Scout move?" (p36)
A: Yes."
pg2, Blood Angels FAQ 1.1 (Latest)

So, does this put to bed that argument about Shunt Scouting? The whole "the game starts after Scout moves" is moot thanks to the Blood Angels FAQ. And nowhere does it say what a "normal" move is, but given Turbo-Boosting is not a "normal" move (that being the standard 12" movement for Bikes), I figure that Shunting for a Scout move will be perfectly legal.

Also, I don't see anywhere in the Teleporters that specify it counts as moving like Jump Infantry, just moving. This doesn't seem to indicate one way or another, but I wouldn't think so until a FAQ says otherwise, simply because it doesn't say it does.

That is all fine, but what about the part of "A unit that moves via a teleport shunt cannot assault the same turn, although it can shoot or run as normal. The unit counts as having moved." cause you can normally move and do all your stuff after scout moves. can they shunt and then move and assault on their turn if they start? even when thier own rule says they cant?

The scout move is not the first turn, so that isnt a problem is it?

Scout shunt up, first turn rolls round and it is no longer "the same turn"

Which is exactly the same as turbo-boosting and moving Flat-out in the Scout move, in both of those you may not shoot(or assault, or disembark). First turn rolls around and now you can move, Shoot, assault, Go-to ground, get pinned, etc.

Of course the Cover save for both of those only applies until your first turn, not after it(Scout-turbo-boosting when your enemy goes first grants you the cover save, Scout turbo-boosting when you go first does not; but it dioes allow you to reposition very well).

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except that is incorrect, as you can turboboost during a scout move. So, youre wrong there.

"normal" means "whatever is normal for that model" == "normal is to be able to shunt onc e per game"

Does turboboosting say "instead of moving"?

It is important because you use the shunt "instead of moving". This makes it not a normal move, but a special ability that puts you in a different location on the board with it own special rules (no dangerous terrain tests, can't assault). This makes it not a normal move and then can not be used in a scout move.

"instead of moving normally"

Shunting is still moving.

It doesn't, but scout tells you that the Big Guy "may make a normal move" (BRB pg. 76). If you can not use shunt on a normal move, when are you supposed to use it at all?

Jidmah wrote:It doesn't, but scout tells you that the Big Guy "may make a normal move" (BRB pg. 76). If you can not use shunt on a normal move, when are you supposed to use it at all?

You can use shunt during your movement phase "instead of a [normal] move". Scout rules specifically state that you can only use normal moves. Shunting is not a normal move, so shunting for your scout move is not legal.

edit: More clearly, if shunting was a normal move, there would be no reason to separate it from a normal move by saying you perform the action instead of the normal move. Clearly GW wanted shunting to not be counted as a normal move and not be used in scout moves.

Turboboosting is not a normal move.

You can turboboost in your scout phase. You can shunt in the scout phase.

You lack an actual rules argument.

ObiFett wrote:
edit: More clearly, if shunting was a normal move, there would be no reason to separate it from a normal move by saying you perform the action instead of the normal move. Clearly GW wanted shunting to not be counted as a normal move and not be used in scout moves.

If GW had a tighter rules set, written at the level of precision of language as a technical manual, I'd say you might be on to something.

But they don't, and every other thing that can normally be done in the movement phase can be done in the scout phase (including turbo boosting/SMF saves and smoke launchers) so to say that this one example of another new thing that can normally be done while moving is suddenly taboo seems horribly pedantic, no?

It's not even overpowered. If you take Dreadknights, you're giving up Dreadnoughts, which are one of the most effective selections in the codex.

But Turboboosting is a normal move. It is outlined in the rulebook as a type of move for all bikers. And it is even outlined in the movement section of the rulebook. I don't get how it can be any more normal than that.

However, Shunting is an ability that is done "instead of moving". That right there is a huge red flag. "Instead of" removes the action from the realm of normal moves. It is not an actual "move" by definition of the term in this wargame because it is done INSTEAD of moving.

sourclams wrote:
It's not even overpowered. If you take Dreadknights, you're giving up Dreadnoughts, which are one of the most effective selections in the codex.

Heh, you don't play Tau...

I think you are majorily incorrect Obifett.

Scout moving is for the most part a normal move for the unit. With shunting being able to be used instead of a normal move therefore it would only make sense that you could use shunt/tele during your scout movement phase because it would be replacing the scout normal movement with the shunt. Just makes sense once again, why people are freaking out about this subject and the whole codex in general makes no sense.

AnGeLsOfDeAtH wrote:I think you are majorily incorrect Obifett.

Scout moving is for the most part a normal move for the unit. With shunting being able to be used instead of a normal move therefore it would only make sense that you could use shunt/tele during your scout movement phase because it would be replacing the scout normal movement with the shunt. Just makes sense once again, why people are freaking out about this subject and the whole codex in general makes no sense.

Except that the rules for scout moves say you can only use normal moves. Shunting is not a normal move.

Shunting is not the normal mode of movement for the unit, but it IS a move they can normally make during the course of the game. It is therefore a normal move for them.

Turboboosting is NOT the normal mode of movement for the unit, b ut it IS a move they can normally make during the course of the game

In BOTH cases you can do this alternative move during the Scout movement.

You've made your mind up, and despite being shown the rules you dont seem to want to change it - so I'll bow here.

If you can show a RULE preventing it, do so.

ObiFett wrote:

sourclams wrote:
It's not even overpowered. If you take Dreadknights, you're giving up Dreadnoughts, which are one of the most effective selections in the codex.

Heh, you don't play Tau...

So your basing it on what you want and not the rules? Not really a vaild point, then is it?

Noir wrote:

ObiFett wrote:

sourclams wrote:
It's not even overpowered. If you take Dreadknights, you're giving up Dreadnoughts, which are one of the most effective selections in the codex.

Heh, you don't play Tau...

So your basing it on what you want and not the rules? Not really a vaild point, then is it?

It was a throwaway joke and, even though I knew it would make my interpretation seem biased, I figured full disclosure and all is better than acting like you are neutral when you aren't. And anyone who says they are truly neutral in a rules discussion are most likely lying.

Does that mean I am basing my interpretation on what I want in the rules? Not at all, and its offensive you would suggest I am. I am not basing it on what I want in the rules. I am basing it on my interpretation of what the scout rules say and what the teleporter shunt rules say.

Shunting =/= normal move. Therefore, scout shunting =/= legal.

The main problem seems to stem from: what constitutes a "normal move"? and what would constitute a "non-normal move"? If we could get a clear answer on that, then this rule discussion would be solved.


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nosferatu1001 wrote:Shunting is not the normal mode of movement for the unit, but it IS a move they can normally make during the course of the game. It is therefore a normal move for them.

"Instead of moving" means it is not moving, but rather a special action.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Turboboosting is NOT the normal mode of movement for the unit, b ut it IS a move they can normally make during the course of the game

Special action that is instead of moving =/= a move outlined in the rulebook under the movement section

nosferatu1001 wrote:You've made your mind up, and despite being shown the rules you dont seem to want to change it.

Right back at ya.

ObiFett wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Turboboosting is NOT the normal mode of movement for the unit, b ut it IS a move they can normally make during the course of the game

Special action that is instead of moving =/= a move outlined in the rulebook under the movement section

And the shunt is detailed as a move in Codex: Grey Knights. Thus, it is normal, and allowed during scout moves.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ObiFett wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Turboboosting is NOT the normal mode of movement for the unit, b ut it IS a move they can normally make during the course of the game

Special action that is instead of moving =/= a move outlined in the rulebook under the movement section

And the shunt is detailed as a move in Codex: Grey Knights. Thus, it is normal, and allowed during scout moves.

ObiFett wrote:
"Instead of moving" means it is not a normal move, but rather a special action/move.

I think you are clutching at straws ObiFett. The rules precedent has been set by numerous other rulings centerd around just this type of situation. You don't like it? Fine. I can't say I like it completely either, but that seems to be the way it is.

Precedent, eh. I can live with that then.

Where is the precedent? What other things that say "instead of moving" are allowed as a scout move?

I think others have clearly and repeatedly shown the previous precedent. Suggest you go back a re-read what they said.

Out.

Again, if GW rules had the tightness of a technical manual, I think you'd be on to something.

Everything else "special" that can normally be done in the movement phase, can be done during a Scout move.

Beast wrote:I think others have clearly and repeatedly shown the previous precedent. Suggest you go back a re-read what they said.

Out.

Turbo-boosting does not say "instead of moving" in the rulebook.

Still haven't seen a precedent...

So your argument basically comes down to 'gk teleporters are fundamentally different from turbo boosting, SMF, and smoke launchers because of the inclusion 'instead'.

Is that it in a nutshell?

Yes. Because it is not moving. It is more akin to deepstriking or the necron teleporting rule. Even more so, the clause "instead of moving" makes it seem like shunting is not even considered moving by the codex itself, but rather a power or special ability that repositions the unit and therefore takes the place of moving. Taking the place of moving removes it from the realm of "normal movement" and right dab smack in the middle of special or non-normal.

Can you cite me some special or non-normal movement that is not allowed to occur during scout moves?

obitfett - you are 100% wrong on the "it isnt a move" thing

Page 28: "the unit immediately makes a move"

Your point is refuted

/thread

sourclams wrote:Can you cite me some special or non-normal movement that is not allowed to occur during scout moves?

Nope, but lack of evidence is not proof of a truth/rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:obitfett - you are 100% wrong on the "it isnt a move" thing

Page 28: "the unit immediately makes a move"

Your point is refuted

/thread

Good point. Then it is a move. The first half of my last post is wrong and you are right.

But is it a normal move? The clause "instead of moving" outlines that its not normal but something done instead of moving normally.

And, again - see turboboosting. Turboboosting is done instead of moving normally, yet can be done in the Scout phase.

Actually, turboboosting is fundamentally different to shunting. Turboboosting can be done in each and every movement phase, barring locked in combet, being in terrain, etc. Shunt can only be done opnce in a game.

nosferatu1001 wrote:And, again - see turboboosting. Turboboosting is done instead of moving normally, yet can be done in the Scout phase.

Does it say that in the rulebook? Does it say turboboosting is done "instead of moving"?

If so, then I would agree with you.

You keep flipflopping between moving and moving normally. Pick one or the other. And remember - you are still moving, so the "instead of moving" phrase is clearly incorrect.

Don - it isnt fundamentally different. TB and Shunt are both moves you can choose to do instead of moving normally. The fact one is use limited doesnt make it *fundamentally* different, just use limited.

Same as a bloodstrike missile isnt a fundamentally different weapon to an exorcist missile - it still fulfils 100% of the usual shooting rules, just can only be used that once.

don_mondo wrote:Actually, turboboosting is fundamentally different to shunting. Turboboosting can be done in each and every movement phase, barring locked in combet, being in terrain, etc. Shunt can only be done opnce in a game.

Also note that a once per game ability (Smoke Launchers) are specifically FAQed to be allowed to be used during a scout move.

The main point I think Obi is trying to make is:

Scout moves are made during normal movement.

Shunt moves are made instead of normal movement.

However turboboosting is not the usual movement mode, yet is "normal" for a bike and is thus allowed (As the FAQ showed)

"Shunt" is not the usual move, but it IS a "normal" move for the shunting model, and is thus allowed.

Being "once per game" is utterly irrelevant.

The point being is that the term,

"instead of moving.."

is the stickler. It removes the shunt from whatever the game deems as moving. It is shunting, not moving.

As you point out, turbo-boosting is not usual moving, but is movement for a bike. That is fine and dandy when it is applied to making Scout moves. However as shunting is not moving per RAW, the Scout moves makes no mention of shunting, and shunting has yet to be FAQ'd like other items (smoke launchers), then you have to fall back that it is not allowed during Scout moves.

I think it will come out 50/50 either for or against allowing it. But as it stands right now, because shunting is not moving and because it has not been FAQ'd like other non-moving actions to be allowed, it is currently not allowed during Scout Moves.

Obi is popping smoke under your definition in any way shape or form a normal move? If not why on earth is it allowed if the shunt isn't? If it is why isn't the shunt a normal move?

Why is turbo-boosting not the usual movement mode? What if all I did was turbo-boost my bikes every turn. It would be the usual movement mode to me.

The question is, what does "normal" movement mean? Normal is another word for uniform or usual. The only thing that is normal between codices is the BRB. Therefore, "normal", I think, is defined as being outlined in the BRB. Anything that is listed in there under movement for the unit type would be normal.

So turbo-boosting is normal for bikers.

Teleport shunting is not normal as it is a special movement that is done "instead of move[ment]" as outlined in the BRB. Not normal =/= not legal for scouting.


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FlingitNow wrote:Obi is popping smoke under your definition in any way shape or form a normal move? If not why on earth is it allowed if the shunt isn't? If it is why isn't the shunt a normal move?

Popping smoke had to be faq'd. I imagine this will have to be as well.

FlingitNow wrote:Obi is popping smoke under your definition in any way shape or form a normal move? If not why on earth is it allowed if the shunt isn't? If it is why isn't the shunt a normal move?

Because it was FAQ'd to allow you to pop smoke despite it not being labeled as moving. Do you have a FAQ that allows you to perform a shunt during the Scout move despite it being labeled as "instead of moving"? Until you do, RAW you can't.

Because it was FAQ'd to allow you to pop smoke despite it not being labeled as moving.

Popping smoke had to be faq'd. I imagine this will have to be as well.

I think you should both look at your own language there. Notice how it was FaQ'd not erratta'd, thus the rules always were that this was allowed and it was just clarified that something does not have to be specified as a normal move to be elligible for a scout move it just has to be something you can do when moving...

Effectively you're saying that you want GK dreads to be FAQ'd to be able to pop smoke if they scout too and this is where your argument falls to peices. They clarified that anything you can do normally when moving you can do when making a scout move unless it is specified otherwise.

FlingitNow wrote:

I think you should both look at your own language there. Notice how it was FaQ'd not erratta'd, thus the rules always were that this was allowed and it was just clarified that something does not have to be specified as a normal move to be elligible for a scout move it just has to be something you can do when moving...

Effectively you're saying that you want GK dreads to be FAQ'd to be able to pop smoke if they scout too and this is where your argument falls to peices. They clarified that anything you can do normally when moving you can do when making a scout move unless it is specified otherwise.

2 problems with that

1) You are inferring that a ruling on one codex by FAQ about a completely different piece of wargear and function applies to another codex. That's not a precedent we want to set.
2) Look at your bolded statement. I just went and read the FAQ again. That was said nowhere and you are implying your own meaning to one question about one piece of wargear. Assumptions like that can create all types of problem when discussing RAW.

Also, Popping smoke does not say "instead of moving". That alone is one vital difference that makes the FAQ not applicable in this case.

So your desperately clinging to instead of moving despite being proved it was indeed movement and that the unit can normally do it once per game.

You know how it will be FaQ'd and they are hardly the first army able to get a turn 1 assault off (infact nearly every 5th ed codex can heck SMs can with their entire army should they wish).

Accept that the Tau aren't competitive move on and stop trying to cheat your way out of rules...

nosferatu1001 wrote:You keep flipflopping between moving and moving normally. Pick one or the other. And remember - you are still moving, so the "instead of moving" phrase is clearly incorrect.

Don - it isnt fundamentally different. TB and Shunt are both moves you can choose to do instead of moving normally. The fact one is use limited doesnt make it *fundamentally* different, just use limited.

To me, that's a 'fundamental difference'........................ Being able to do it every turn makes it normal, only being able to do it once makes it not normal.

This all seems pretty simple to me if you break it down. A specific rule or statement from the codex overrides the brb. Scout moves from the brb states that you may make a normal move which allows a unit with scout to make a normal move. Under teleporters in the grey knights codex it states that instead of moving you may make a shunt move. So brb scout rules allows the unit to make a normal move in the scout phase, the codex allows you to instead of making that normal move to shunt your 30 inches. So obi you are correct in your statement that the codex states that instead of moving you may shunt well scout gives them the opportunity to move and therefore forgoe the move and shunt instead.

A marine firing a missile launcher and a land raider firing a Hunter killer Missile are both Normal even though one is limited to once per game.

This is the same as "Turbo boosting" and "shunting"

If "Turbo boosting" can be used in the scout move then so can "shunting"

Brother Ramses wrote:The point being is that the term,

"instead of moving.."

is the stickler. It removes the shunt from whatever the game deems as moving. It is shunting, not moving.

the shunt rules themselves STATE it is a a move. So, it IS a move.

Don - it is something I can normally do once per game. "normally" is entirely as broad as that.

That I am aware of, GW has never specificed what a "normal" move is, so that argument doesn't have much merit. Also, that turbo-boosting and popping smoke can happen in the Scout move pretty much should eliminate doubt on this!

I have to agree with the You can Shunt while scouting.

Since shunting is something they can normally do once per game.

DeathReaper wrote:I have to agree with the You can Shunt while scouting.

Since shunting is something they can normally do once per game.

SO?

There is more than enough precedent for allowing this scout shunt to work, until an faq rolls around, it works.

Hide your models, hide your vehciles, hide your IC's cause the dreadknights be first turn assaulting everyone up in this battle

em_en_oh_pee wrote:That I am aware of, GW has never specificed what a "normal" move is, so that argument doesn't have much merit. Also, that turbo-boosting and popping smoke can happen in the Scout move pretty much should eliminate doubt on this!

I think its pretty obvious what "normal" movement is according to GW: anything outlined in the BRB. Anything outlined in the BRB would be considered normal because it is allowed and uniform across all codices. That is why turboboosting and smoke launchers are allowed when scouting. They are both outlined in the BRB and are thus "normal".

Shunting is as non-normal as you can get. I'd be willing to bet they rule that way in a FAQ as well.

Please tell me dreadknights do not have scout or infiltrate? Matt Ward is probably loving this thread

DKs can get scout through Grand Strategy which basically all GK HQs have.

Am I drunk? Why are there two threads by two people arguing the same thing with the exact same void arguments?

Obifett - so your argument is that the SPecial rule "Turboboost" is normal, just because it appears in the rulebook?

Lol

Seriously. Special rules exist in the brb same as they exist in codexes.

Nos-
Then how would you define "normal" movement? And what would be considered "non-normal" movement?

I can at least define the two and give examples of both.

You are classifying all movement as normal. If that was the case, why would the scout rules specifically only allow normal movement? If all movement was normal, specifying only normal movement is allowed for scouting it would be unnecessary and redundant.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jidmah wrote:Am I drunk? Why are there two threads by two people arguing the same thing with the exact same void arguments?

This one was created first. No idea why the second one exists.

And yes, its like the same arguments in both. A little silly.

ObiFett wrote:Except that the rules for scout moves say you can only use normal moves. Shunting is not a normal move.

They don't say that. Go read it again, and don't forget reading the last sentence of the rule again.

Obifett - in the same way GW do- if your unit can normally move, that is NORMAL movement for you

Very simple, really

Then what would be a "non-normal" movement? Can you give an example?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Obifett - in the same way GW do- if your unit can normally move, that is NORMAL movement for you

Very simple, really

So what does GW say about doing something instead of moving?

To follow the rules as written. Go back to you own thread instead of ignoring the answers there.

Shunt states it is a move, debating otherwise is simply in error.

I would never have read turboboosting as anything but normal, as it is in the normal movement section as an option for movement.

Shunt, I would not have read normal for as it does say instead of moving.

Oddly it says to move instead of moving, so I get both sides.

So what is NOT a normal move? Why write it like that? What is prevented that I am missing?

There is no differentiation between special and normal moves.

The "normal move" mentioned in the scout rule is explained in the following sentence, which ObiFett as well as Brother Ramses are greatfully ignoring, and inventing "special moves" instead.

Jidmah wrote:The "normal move" mentioned in the scout rule is explained in the following sentence, which ObiFett as well as Brother Ramses are greatfully ignoring, and inventing "special moves" instead.

Except that "special" part is not exactly invented.

If some moves are "normal" there needs to be another catagory, otherwise that just does not make sense.

Editing to add:
"This is done exactly as in their Movement phase. . ." does not exactly explain things.
Even if you assume it means "They can do anything they can do in the Movement phase" (which does not seem to be exactly true) it makes ME wonder what would be the need to add the word "normal".

Despite the lack of techincal writing, adding arbitrary words to sentences DOES change their meaning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I am not really trying to say it cannot be done.

It does seem that GW leans towards 'normal' being errated FAQ'd out of that sentence.

I have only read what is posted and am more wondering about the 3 questions I ended my initial response with.

Jidmah wrote:To follow the rules as written. Go back to you own thread instead of ignoring the answers there.

I didn't start either of the threads so not sure what you mean by my thread.

I find it funny that ignoring completely that a teleport shunt is done instead of moving still makes you think it is moving. If the rule simply mentioned that the teleport shunt was "in addition" or "as well" or even "also" you would have something to stand on. The fact that it tells you "instead" creates an ability outside of movement called a teleport shunt.

kirsanth wrote:
I have only read what is posted and am more wondering about the 3 questions I ended my initial response with.

That is exactly what I am wondering as well. What would be a "non-normal" move? If all movement is normal, why would they put that in the scout movement description? What would be disallowed by that rule?

Those questions can be basically boiled down to: What is normal movement? What is non-normal movement? Please give examples of both.

kirsanth wrote:

Jidmah wrote:The "normal move" mentioned in the scout rule is explained in the following sentence, which ObiFett as well as Brother Ramses are greatfully ignoring, and inventing "special moves" instead.

Except that "special" part is not exactly invented.

If some moves are "normal" there needs to be another catagory, otherwise that just does not make sense.

Editing to add:
"This is done exactly as in their Movement phase. . ." does not exactly explain things.
Even if you assume it means "They can do anything they can do in the Movement phase" (which does not seem to be exactly true) it makes ME wonder what would be the need to add the word "normal".

Despite the lack of techincal writing, adding arbitrary words to sentences DOES change their meaning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I am not really trying to say it cannot be done.

It does seem that GW leans towards 'normal' being errated FAQ'd out of that sentence.

I have only read what is posted and am more wondering about the 3 questions I ended my initial response with.

Normal is only used to describe that you move as stated in the movement phase, as opposed to moving while assaulting, falling back, running or piling in.

Brother Ramses: Shunt rules tells you it is movement three times, please stop reposting your lies.

so pretty much this means a forward deployment against GK. it seems as if they MUST move the full 30" so let them shunt then die by running into my crap.

Hahahahah!

Instead of moving what do you do? Shunt.

What does Shunt consist of? All the little "move" quotes you listed.

Scout moves allow you to make a normal move.

What did you do instead of making a normal move? You Shunted.

Do all the little move quotes that make up a Shunt qualify it to be used during a Scout move? No because you did not make a normal move to qualify for the Scout move, you Shunted.

Needs an FAQ. Until it is FAQed, I'm going to assume that GW intends it to be doable with Scout moves.

Brother Ramses wrote:Instead of moving what do you do? Shunt.

Shunt is moving via teleporter shunt. (RAW GK codex pg. 28)

Making a normal move is done exactly as moving in your movement phase. (RAW BRB pg. 76)

Once per game a unit may elect to make a teleport shunt instead of moving. (RAW GK codex pg. 28)

There is no rule in either BRB or the GK codex disallowing Shunt instead of moving during a movement phase. (RAW BRB and GK Codex)

There also is no rule stating that a normal move must not be replaced by something or that it is limited to any type of movement, except for the limitation due to scouting. (RAW BRB)

Thus, shunt is allowed instead of any move that is done exactly as moving in your movement phase. Otherwise, shunt would never be allowed.

BR - shunting is still a "move". it tells you that *3* times.

You can pretend it isnt a move, despite being shown about 10 times that that simply isnt true. Its not exactly convincing, however.

Jidmah wrote:Making a normal move is done exactly as moving in your movement phase. (RAW BRB pg. 76)

This is not precisely what it states.

It tells you to make a normal move exactly like in the Movement phase.

Which is different than saying making a normal move is exactly like moving in the Movement phase.

Uhm, care to explain why? And give a (non-shunt) example for the difference?

Jidmah wrote:Uhm, care to explain why? And give a (non-shunt) example for the difference?

kirsanth wrote:So what is NOT a normal move? Why write it like that? What is prevented that I am missing?

So you are basically saying that the word "normal" is extra text there simply to confuse readers?

Ok, I will go look for something to answer my own questions as soon as I have time to read some more.

Nah, I said 'normal' is most likely used to differentiate from other movements like falling back, assaulting, running and the like, if read in context with "This is done exactly as in their movement phase".

I am lacking some references regarding whether this is possible, (specifically Apoc variations ATM--I have them, but not with me) but if there is a way to scout a Tervigon, can it spawn termagants, then?

(I can see no reason not to, but it seems to be a bit removed from a normal move)

Note to self: get nid codex...

As they are tyranids, most likely no

Exact rule, maybe?

Jidmah wrote:As they are tyranids, most likely no

This wins. LOL

I think normal move vs assault move works the best, but also makes the least sense.

That may be why it makes my brain itch.

/shrug

(Editing to add: They can spawn gants before moving in the movement phase)

If it specifically calls for the movement phase, you may not use it outside of it, as scouting definitely is not a movement phase. Smoke launchers, for example, say "after completing its move".

Jidmah wrote:Uhm, care to explain why? And give a (non-shunt) example for the difference?

On page 76 from what Im reading: Any Scouts may make A NORMAL MOVE. This is done exactly as in their MOVEMENT PHASE, except during this move, scouts MUST REMAIN MORE THAN 12" AWAY.

i REPEAT:This is done exactly AS IN YOUR MOVEMENT PHASE.

Reading turbo boosting: When using their turbo boosters bikes may MOVE up to 24" in the MOVEMENT PHASE

Bikers and jets can turbo boost, vehicles can move flat out up to 24" depending on the vehicle, and yes I believe the teleport can be used as they move like they would in the movement phase, they just get it once per game so I say bring it on! Mat Ward wrote part of the GK book, and so Im guessing this was his intention.

Or have I been watching the episode of Robot Chicken with the Mad Scientist who turns everything upside down starting with Pluto too many times?

http://video.adultswim.com/robot-chicken/scientist-mad-with-power.html

This video kinda reminds me of Ward

I see, thanks.

Well, the catch is that shunt states that after the shunt you can not assault that turn.


This implies and means that there is to be other phase after the shunt 'move', the shooting/running phase and the assault phase.

Which means there are other stages to it--- A normal turn.

TurboBoost has no mention to a turn it just says cover save for next opponents shooting phase.

The shunt should be used because the game hasn't begun and the assault next turn can occur which is not using the rule to the wording which is CHEATing.


And it mentions once per game and the game doesnt start till after scout moves.


Idk if you think this is a weak argument, this is RAW. Which takes precedence over RAI until a FAQ comes to fix it.




The other main difference is there is no FAQ for shunt unlike Turbo-boost and Smoke launchers.
The wording is not the same not even similar except they happen during scout move.

good call shank. I did not know they couldnt assault after shunting, so in a few months well see if its rule bending scenario. (I wouldnt be surprised about this loophole if not.)

shank911 wrote:Well, the catch is that shunt states that after the shunt you can not assault that turn.


This implies and means that there is to be other phase after the shunt 'move', the shooting/running phase and the assault phase.

Which means there are other stages to it--- A normal turn.

TurboBoost has no mention to a turn it just says cover save for next opponents shooting phase.

The shunt should be used because the game hasn't begun and the assault next turn can occur which is not using the rule to the wording which is CHEATing.


And it mentions once per game and the game doesnt start till after scout moves.


Idk if you think this is a weak argument, this is RAW. Which takes precedence over RAI until a FAQ comes to fix it.




The other main difference is there is no FAQ for shunt unlike Turbo-boost and Smoke launchers.
The wording is not the same not even similar except they happen during scout move.

No offense, but that argument is absolute NONSENSE! That is just twisting wording when the most simple explanation is the most obvious and expected. Why is this rule so hard for people to accept?! It isn't broken. Adapt or die. Simple as that!

Ok.. so. I skipped page 3.. figured I could catch up towards the end.

You are right, in the movement phase you can turbo boost.. so, technically you can't do that during the scout move.. but oh wait.. you can. Why? Because in the FAQ it specifcally says, can a unit use turboboost during hte scout move.. the answer yes. So .. that answers the reason why your allowed to turbo boost during scout.

NOW, .. shunting.. instead of a normal move.. scout move says may make a normal move. Considering the shunt is only once per game, and is not a normal movement for the unit, isn't that evidence of the fact that it can't be used FOR THE SCOUT MOVE. however, if I'm not mistaken the word says once per game, you coudl do that between the scout move and before the seize initiative moment i guess. As technically that is after scout move and during the game. But I see that as a bit much on rule bending. I don't really care what they do with the dreadknight, I'm just dissapointed that for a codex that has been so long needed for the GK's that there is already a faq needed before the actual release of codex..

God damn, people are so *silly* [Mod edit]... what is so hard to understand that in the scout move you moves as you normally would in your movement phase? The FAQ states 3 examples as to why it would work. Get your thumbs out of your asses and accept it.

But seeing as it isn't the normal movement, that they are allowed it only once a game.. otherwise if you said they always move 30" i'd say sure.. but they don't they move once like that.. not normally.. and no where does it say for turboboosting that "instead of moving normally you may" it says, you may move up to 24" blah blah during the movement phase.

You may move 30" in the movement phase once per game... same shat different pile.

Instead of moving normally... Try not to forget that line.. It's what is causing the whole debate after all.

until it is FAQ'd it seems totally playable.

because people are confused about the move thing lets move it to something more conceivable. Lets say there is a hypothetical rule that says before the game starts each player can nominate a unit to fire before the 1st turn. You have to fire exactly as you do in the shooting phase. No one would argue that someone could fire a hunter killer missile even though it has an ammo of 1.

The same thing is happening here only the "shunt" move happens to have an "ammo" of 1. Furthermore bikes move nearly as far during their scout move, so why can't another unit?

The FAQs that already out are for far different issues and the wording on this issues is much clearer then this.

You aren't making a normal move with shunt

you are telerport shunting,

this is not equal or even similar to normal move.



When you "shunt move" you give up your "normal move"
Hench the line
'Once per game, they unit can elect to make a teleport shunt instead of moving.'

This indicates your are forgoing you normal move to shunt.


This doesnt mean shunt=normal move.

Its like using a rapid fire weapon, you can forgo you movement to get 24" fire, same as shunting you forgo moving to shunt.

TBing says they can because its a part of it, its not instead of moving, it is their movement.
Smokelaunchers are after a move, scout move is a move.

Shunt has no comparison to these except scout is brought up between the three.


Shunt can not be used as a normal move because you are forgoing that normal move in order to do shunt.

Where does it define what is "normal" in the rulebook, by chance? I don't recall a specific page defining that. In fact, I see examples pointing to the contrary, because Turbo-Boosting is not a "normal" move, I suppose.

Folks, Shunting in the Scout move is legal. Its a type of Movement that can be done in the Movement phase, thus it can be done as a Scout move. Period. End of story.

I'm actually with you on that one luke, I'm not really one way or the other on it, I'm just saying it can't because of the wording of the teleporters. Same thing to be said about the NORMAL unit that carries them, not just the dreadknight. My only thing witht hem is that bikes turboboosting have limitations that these guys don't. A. you have to not go into terrain. Not to mention the originoanl posting of this thread asked would they take a DT test.. Entering and leaving terrain forces them to test, yet this shunt wouldn't ..??

I'm wondering about why all the GK players and such are wanting all these extra edges .. if they become actual play then so be it.. but it seems like a lot of twisting to get an edge on a already quite impressive codex.

Also.. whatever happened to 4+ing it?

Can you move in the Scout phase? YES.

Thus, you can elect to skip said move to Shunt.

Easy as that.

Grey Knight Luke wrote:

The same thing is happening here only the "shunt" move happens to have an "ammo" of 1. Furthermore bikes move nearly as far during their scout move, so why can't another unit?

The TurboBoost rule doesn't state you are instead of you move, it says it is a bikes normal move if it chooses to. up to 24" is how far a bike can move all the time every-time,

if it moves un 12" it can do normal stuff 18"+ it gets the cover save.


Shunt isnt comparable to TB at all, there different TB is clearly defined and FAQed to clear it up shunt is not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The reason this is important is because, if you can shunt in scout phase, which isnt a turn, then the no assault thing doesnt occur.

So you shunt get 12" away then move shoot assault next turn.

Im will be amazed if the FAQ allows this to go through.
Because of the implications of this.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:Where does it define what is "normal" in the rulebook, by chance? I don't recall a specific page defining that. In fact, I see examples pointing to the contrary, because Turbo-Boosting is not a "normal" move, I suppose.

Folks, Shunting in the Scout move is legal. Its a type of Movement that can be done in the Movement phase, thus it can be done as a Scout move. Period. End of story.

I'm sorry but that is a lame rebuttle sir. First off, nothing in the rulebooks is defined.. why.. because it isn't a dictioniary.. but 2 of the rules in question are bringing up the term normal meaning it has some significance here. I.e. PT= Instead of moving normally. Scout= May make a normal move... Why is that not.. period.. end of story? Your relation to turboboosting is a void argument as it says may be done in movement phase but oh wait not movement phase because RB faq says they can. No where in rulebook is shunt mentioned as any form of movement... so does that mean it doesn't exist.. zomgz... Really, it's apparently not cut and dry as if it was there woudln't be an argument about it.

Also, I take it if you said the sky is falling we should take you at your word because its Period.. End of story Say so?.... ... .. ..?

Right, the BRB is a dictionary. So where is "normal" move defined? How about in a Codex? Anywhere? Nope.

Why the term was used, I don't know.

That does change my last argument, which is the simplest approach without rules lawyering, etc.

Can you move in the Scout phase? Yes.

Thus, you can elect to skip said move to Shunt.

A + B = D?

Also, Turbo-Boosting is a great example. It is not a "normal" move, not that such a term even matters, and is able to be used. It sets a clear precedent about what can and can't be done in the Scout move. Same for the Smoke Launchers. Maybe if it was just one of those two, I can see an argument, but two makes a trend.

The only argument I am seeing is the need for a definition of "normal move", which doesn't exist. Shall we let common sense prevail here, then, since that argument falls pretty flat?

It does exist in both items/rules being used. I.e. perhaps we should say this here in case we come up with something weirder down the road? Again turboboosting has been covered as to why it is allowed yet the other wouldn't be...

Ive posted my view, I dont want to buy a codex just to argue with GK rules abusers. If something prevents you from assault when performing a special move it should be clearly written. From the turbo boost example I believe games where the scouts can teleport can use it to assault that turn, as I used to do this with my white scars army when the faq was released.

Keep in mind some of the missions where you cannot set up normally such as Dawn of War would already nullify the scout teleport as they would move on to the board turn 1.

IMO 1-3 teleporters arent that scary Dreads or not in tournaments. Why? That would be the first thing I target and I dont think a shunting unit can be that scary if you use your mech to castle it from charging your squad as it can only assault what it shoots at. So you lose a tank. Then they lose their strongest attackers. So come at me with your 1-3 assaulters. Then eat my bullets, meltas, force weapon, fists, hammers and meet my heavy hitters.

How to counter with proper positioning:

Chaos: 9 obliterators behind rhino plague marines with plasmas and meltas

Eldar: Harlequins, massive shots, etc.

IG: everything

MArines: heavy shooters and asssaulters

etc., etc., etc. for every thing that seems overpowered, they can be overpowered with luck and positioning. Also, buying a new army and assembling it and painting it I wouldnt expect them to win any painting requirement tournaments anytime soon.

My current army laughs at GK. They are DOA so I just wont DS. DK are T7 and eat marines. So Ill charge everyone into them and that should be enough fists, meltas, and bps to kill them one by one.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:Also, Turbo-Boosting is a great example. It is not a "normal" move, not that such a term even matters, and is able to be used. It sets a clear precedent about what can and can't be done in the Scout move. Same for the Smoke Launchers. Maybe if it was just one of those two, I can see an argument, but two makes a trend.

The only argument I am seeing is the need for a definition of "normal move", which doesn't exist. Shall we let common sense prevail here, then, since that argument falls pretty flat?

Turbo-boosting is a normal move for bikes....

Turbo-boosters dont turn on unless the bike wants to go over 12", the oppent doesnt have to say hes turbo-boosting, you should know if he goes over 12" he is but he doesnt gain the save unless he moves over 18".

So Turbo-boosting is normal, no where does it state it replaces your move or changes it, it is the move just a name for the portion of it after 12"+ Like flat out, cruising speed etc.



And FYI a normal move isnt defined its common sense, add A+B=c

A= normal B= move c= normal move.

normal is defined as Conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected.

Move is A change of place or position.



So A+B= a change of place or position that conforms to a standard or is typical or expected.


Shunt doesnt follow this, it isnt normal or expected it is a one time use.

So if you go by the definition, the unsaid definition then shunt cant be used.

Oh, I like this fellow.

You are creating a definition for yourself. There is nowhere that states a Shunt can't be used by common sense, which you want to apply to your own silliness about A + B = whatever.

A) Can you move in the Scout phase? Yes.
B) Does Shunting replace your movement? Yes.
C) Can I Shunt in the Scout phase? Yes.

A + B = C

Done.

Now, if the BRB had a section entitled "Normal Moves" and one named "Special Moves", then your argument would be entirely valid. As it stands, Turbo-Boosting is not a normal move, either. Its a USR, or Universal Special Rule.

Since you all seem so stuck on Normal vs. Special, how does that sit with you?

"Many units of models in Warhammer 40,000 have unique special rules." p74

So, as I said, Turbo-Boosting sets a precedent, as it is a movement related rule allowed in the Scout phase. Shunting is no different, except that its rules are outlined in a Codex.

As I said in a different post.. TB/Smoke got their faq, reguardless of your feeling on it.. you will probably have to wait for your faq. And again, the rule for Turboboosting is aunder special rules not special moves.. so how are you relating the two. you can't use it as a specific for your point in one move and in the other say but it doesn't... And seeing as how only GK have the "SHUNT" .. i call that pretty special..Blood Talons aren't in the special rules, their special wargears and items that may make a character or model behave differently then intended. .. Seems un normal.. Try looking at it from the ohter side of the argument.

Btw, your version of A+B=C is no diff then the ohter guys.. you invent your own c.. as no where .. and i mean no where does it say you can use a "shunt" in the scout move.

Yea, its does say so, because of how the logical pattern of my A+B=C argument lines up. Its simple rules understanding, nothing more. Also, as said in the other thread, FAQs exist to clear up rules problems, not entirely define them.

Also, Turbo-Boosting is a "Special" rule, is it not? Bikes reference it because it is a USR, while Shunting outlines what it does in a Codex. NDKs even reference the Shunting rules of another entry, etc. My point was that as a "Special" rule, Turbo-Boosting is not a "normal" movement at all.

So your argument there is moot. Of course, as "Special" and "Normal" are creations of the players and not even in the Rulebook, it was moot from the start anyhow, just trying to illustrate that your argument was not sound.

First: any argument that you cannot "shunt" because it disallows assault *also* disallows TB, as with TB you cannot perform ANY other voluntary action that turn. This means it is *automatically* invalid as an argument, as it leads to a contradiction to a known truth.

Second: the BRB does NOT define normal. However the FAQ clarifies that anything you can *normally* do in your Movement phase, INCLUDING firing smoke launchers, you CAN do in the Scout move

third: any argument that the "game" hasnt started during Scout is invalid due to smoke launchers being allowed. So again, claiming you cannot use Shunt because the game hasnt started is AUTOMATICALLY an invalid argument, as Smoke Launchers can be used

Conclusion: Shunt is a normal move for the teleporter squad, as it is something they can do any movement phase they wish. The game has started, it is usual for them to be able to shunt when making a Move, and therefore they can

There are no actual rules arguments the other way. None.

Yup. Thanks nos, that is basically it spelled out right there.

shank911 wrote:The reason this is important is because, if you can shunt in scout phase, which isnt a turn, then the no assault thing doesnt occur.

So you shunt get 12" away then move shoot assault next turn.

Im will be amazed if the FAQ allows this to go through.
Because of the implications of this.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the shunt move.

Can you assault and shoot and other things after turbo boosting in the scout phase?

Yes.

This argument is irrelevant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:First: any argument that you cannot "shunt" because it disallows assault *also* disallows TB, as with TB you cannot perform ANY other voluntary action that turn. This means it is *automatically* invalid as an argument, as it leads to a contradiction to a known truth.

Second: the BRB does NOT define normal. However the FAQ clarifies that anything you can *normally* do in your Movement phase, INCLUDING firing smoke launchers, you CAN do in the Scout move

third: any argument that the "game" hasnt started during Scout is invalid due to smoke launchers being allowed. So again, claiming you cannot use Shunt because the game hasnt started is AUTOMATICALLY an invalid argument, as Smoke Launchers can be used

Conclusion: Shunt is a normal move for the teleporter squad, as it is something they can do any movement phase they wish. The game has started, it is usual for them to be able to shunt when making a Move, and therefore they can

There are no actual rules arguments the other way. None.

Agree completely.

Im looking directly at the codex and it says that "Once per game the unit can elect to make a teleport shunt INSTEAD OF MOVING. ... They move up to 30" "

Turbo boosting says "may MOVE up to 24" in the movement phase."

So turbo boosting is a movement where the teleport shunt is INSTEAD of movement.

Looking at scouts: ANY SCOUTS MAY MAKE A NORMAL MOVE.

As scouts say normal move and shunt is a movement now I think shuntng is legal for scouting until the faq gets released.

I believe you can shunt move during scout moves.

However DT is an issue with only 2 possible outcomes.

1.) They count as jump infantry when moving through or into difficult terrain and on 1s are removed from play.

2.) They count as normal infantry so if they move through difficult terrain they roll 2d6 and pick the highest and that is now their max shunt move. Which makes your max shunt move 6". Because if you are not jump infantry that is how you move through difficult terrain.


honestly 1 is more plausible and as such they should be treated as jump infantry when moving with shunt.

Shunt ignores all intervening terrain, because its rule says so. If the move ends in dangerous terrain, he has to test as there is no exception made, so rules for regular moves apply.

edit: too stupid to type.

nosferatu1001 wrote:First: any argument that you cannot "shunt" because it disallows assault *also* disallows TB, as with TB you cannot perform ANY other voluntary action that turn. This means it is *automatically* invalid as an argument, as it leads to a contradiction to a known truth.

Second: the BRB does NOT define normal. However the FAQ clarifies that anything you can *normally* do in your Movement phase, INCLUDING firing smoke launchers, you CAN do in the Scout move

third: any argument that the "game" hasnt started during Scout is invalid due to smoke launchers being allowed. So again, claiming you cannot use Shunt because the game hasnt started is AUTOMATICALLY an invalid argument, as Smoke Launchers can be used

Conclusion: Shunt is a normal move for the teleporter squad, as it is something they can do any movement phase they wish. The game has started, it is usual for them to be able to shunt when making a Move, and therefore they can

There are no actual rules arguments the other way. None.

I think this pretty much sums it up right here. Nos has an excellent grip on the rules, and has posted actual RAW and precedents. Nosferatu is 100% correct.

nosferatu1001 wrote:First: any argument that you cannot "shunt" because it disallows assault *also* disallows TB, as with TB you cannot perform ANY other voluntary action that turn. This means it is *automatically* invalid as an argument, as it leads to a contradiction to a known truth.

I completely agree with this.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Second: the BRB does NOT define normal.

Here is where your argument gets iffy. The BRB does not explicitly define what normal movement, but you could infer that anything outlined in the BRB is normal, because the BRB itself outlines all of the standard/normal rules for the game. A valid argument you could make against that logic is that I am implying something that is not explicitly outlined anywhere in the 40k rules. If we are going by pure RAW, then I agree with you. So lets assume we are going by pure RAW:

nosferatu1001 wrote:However the FAQ clarifies that anything you can *normally* do in your Movement phase, INCLUDING firing smoke launchers, you CAN do in the Scout move

Nope. The FAQ does not say anything of the sort. It actually says:
Q: Can bikes Turbo Boost during their Scout move? (p76)
A: Yes they now can, but remember that they have to
remain more than 12” away from the enemy as they move.
AND
Q: Can a Baal Predator use smoke launchers during its
Scout move?
A: Yes.

Nowhere in the FAQ does it say what you said in your quote. You are implying something that is not explicitly outlined anywhere in the 40k FAQ. Either we can both do that or neither of us can.

Assume we can infer intent from rules:
You infer that the FAQ says anything you can normally do in your movement phase can be done during scouting. (claim backed up by smoke and TB being allowed through FAQ)
I infer that normal is defined by anything outlined in the BRB. (claim backed up by smoke and TB both being outlined in the BRB and thus being normal AND by GW saying they now can meaning it is allowed because it is outlined in the BRB)
Shunting is not outlined in the BRB, therefore is not "normal".

Assume we can not infer intent from rules:
Normal movement is not described anywhere in the rules (BRB or FAQ).
Scout movement requires that the move be a normal move.
Turbo-boosting and smoke launchers required a FAQ.

Shunting will require a FAQ and until then should be played like turboboosting and smoke launchers were played before their respective FAQS or until normal movement is defined.

nosferatu1001 wrote:third: any argument that the "game" hasnt started during Scout is invalid due to smoke launchers being allowed. So again, claiming you cannot use Shunt because the game hasnt started is AUTOMATICALLY an invalid argument, as Smoke Launchers can be used

I agree here as well

nosferatu1001 wrote:Conclusion: Shunt is a normal move for the teleporter squad, as it is something they can do any movement phase they wish. The game has started, it is usual for them to be able to shunt when making a Move, and therefore they can
There are no actual rules arguments the other way. None.

Your second argument is still weak and has many holes in the logic. Specifically switching from RAI to RAW when its convenient for you. Conclusion is not valid.

ObiFett wrote:
Shunting will require a FAQ and until then should be played like turboboosting and smoke launchers were played before their respective FAQS or until normal movement is defined.

OK, so it's OK to teleport shunt then? After all, many players were already turbo-boosting during their scout moves before they clarified that you can do so in the FAQ.

Sure, if that's how you played previous.

At my store it was the opposite.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Second: the BRB does NOT define normal.

Here is where your argument gets iffy. The BRB does not explicitly define what normal movement, but you could infer that anything outlined in the BRB is normal, because the BRB itself outlines all of the standard/normal rules for the game. A valid argument you could make against that logic is that I am implying something that is not explicitly outlined anywhere in the 40k rules.

Well, there are universal special rules, special weapons, special close combat attacks, special attacks and special characters in the rulebook. You argument is hardly one, as you interpretation would even break some of those rules. Also codex rules are no different than any BRB rule, except that the codex takes precedence over any other rule in the case of conflicting rules.
Normal movement describes nothing but a regular movent done during a movement phase (it even says so in the scout rule), as opposed to an assault movement, a pile-in movement, a fall back! movement or hit&run movement, which all follow very different rules than regular movment. Moving via shunt teleport is nothing but a regular move that ignores terrain(jet bikes do that all the time) over a very high distance.

Jidmah wrote:Moving via shunt teleport is nothing but a regular move that ignores terrain(jet bikes do that all the time) over a very high distance.

...that is "instead of moving" according to the codex.

It needs a faq. Both sides have sound arguments. GW did a shoddy job with the rules and wording in this case.

ObiFett wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Moving via shunt teleport is nothing but a regular move that ignores terrain(jet bikes do that all the time) over a very high distance.

...that is "instead of moving" according to the codex.

It needs a faq. Both sides have sound arguments. GW did a shoddy job with the rules and wording in this case.

No.

Both sides have arguments, but the pro shunt move during the scout move have far more weight behind their arguments than the non shunt move during the scout move.

You forgot to add "imo" to the end of that post.

ObiFett wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Moving via shunt teleport is nothing but a regular move that ignores terrain(jet bikes do that all the time) over a very high distance.

...that is "instead of moving" according to the codex.

It needs a faq. Both sides have sound arguments. GW did a shoddy job with the rules and wording in this case.

Been there, done that. Shunt is a move by RAW, it obeys all rules for regular moves exept for intervening terrain. Shunt is a regular move.

The only question actually up to any debate is, whether you are forced to move the unit type's regular movement distance during scout, or whether you may do another move instead. There are actually no rules of any kind denying it, but two faqs plus the clarification of "normal move" within the scout rule, basicly allowing you to do anything while scouting that could be done when making a move in your movement phase. As no difference between the scout move and a move during a movement phase can be made, anything legal during one must be legal during the other and vice versa.

And agreed, it needs a FAQ, I don't actually care which way.

ObiFett wrote:You forgot to add "imo" to the end of that post.

Generally if something is posted without a quote or a page number it is probably safe to assume it is in the opinion of the poster.

on pg 76 of the BRB (this has already been quoted): "before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy."

So a normal move is a move "done exactly as in their movement phase."

A shunt can be preformed during the movement phase so it is valid.

However I see this turning out extremely problematic for a 30" move. Lets say this is a pitched battle the enemy lines up 12 in off the board in a straight line, there is now 24" of direct table space available for a scout move, normally this wouldn't matter because units tend not to move too far (or at the very least can limit their move). with a theoretical half of the table taken for a scout move, the player has a corner to corner length of 64 in, plenty of room for a 30in shunt, but in my mind it will take a lot of games for people to figure out how to make this shunt move viable (aka the dreadknight is placed in the position that is in fact where the player wanted it. In my mind it wont be as game breaking as you seem to think it will (plenty of dangerous units are able to get that far in on the first turn, bikes that can scout, drop pods (these also have dreads in them too!), scouts.)

Because of the above stated I STILL don't understand why people are so concerned with this shunt business.

It is a move of 30", and therefore is implicitly UP TO 30", like all movement is "up to" your maximum.

Idk, their fairly specific about this kind of thing "Bikes can move up to 12" in the Movement phase." :53
"When using their turbo-boosters they may move up to 24" in the
Movement phase" :76

These aren't a 30" move, and to make a 29" move is not making a 30" move. I think that any real issue with a 3)" move can be debunked simply with <(^_^)>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\(>=_=)> wiggly movement.

But what page is the Shunt more wording on (in this thread)?

ObiFett wrote:You forgot to add "imo" to the end of that post.

As soon as you add it to yours...

I also would like specific wording on the shunt. because if it says it is a 30" move in any direction, then I would say that it is a 30" move not 30" or less.

All moves made in 40K are "up to". Its in the BRB somewhere. Don't have it in front of me, but I am pretty sure.

"In his turn, a player may move any of his units – all of
them if he wishes – up to their maximum movement
distance." pg 11

Is distinct from "makes a 30" move" when it lacks the up to every single other entry has. It might be an oversight, might not. Hence asking for the actual wording.

I must say that i believe that the shunt is a legal move. It's replacing a normal move, so therefore you can use it in your scout phase. And this is my second post, yay!

Chris - exact same wording as Lash, where you make a 2D6" move. This move is a normal move, and ALL normal moves are "up to" - and the FAQ for lash confirms that.

You move up to 30", and can do so in the scout "phase"

Ah, cheers for the FAQ mention

nice, good call on the lash being worded the same. I retract my previous statements about shunt being a required 30" move. Thanks Nos.

Grey Knight Luke wrote:I also would like specific wording on the shunt. because if it says it is a 30" move in any direction, then I would say that it is a 30" move not 30" or less.

I read through my friend's GK codex last night. It specifically says up to 30"