In the recent topic "Do you think Games Workshop should add more female miniatures to their existing 40K lines?" the subject of female Space Marines has been brought up and both sides have made credible arguements so I thought, why not simply have a poll, then we can know how many people are for it and against it?

Against:
The current fluff is against it
GW aren't particularily good with female models
Sisters of Battle is so similar anyway

For:
The fluff is very often altered (see the Jokerao)
The fluff against it seems to be very 'Deus Ex Machina excuse for no female marines'
Unlike what the against group says you wouldn't need an entire fluff overhaul to have fem-marines.
Females are still sorely under-represented in 40K, despite the existence of SoB

For me, in the words of Ascalam

"Why, exactly, would having female Space Marines destroy the integrity of the game?"

I also think that if you look through the other topic BaronIveagh really says it best on the first page

And another point, there's a whole thing going around amonst the against crowd about female marines having to look unattractive to remain in the grim-dark setting, sure they'd have to have the same armor, but look at Samus from Metroid. She (at least sometimes) fits into the grim-dark thing, she's very attractive despite being covered in armor.

I'm personally pro-Female Marines and would happily use SoB heads on some of my helmetless marines if I had any spare

Please feel free to add to the for or against reasons as I'm certain I haven't got everything.

Also I'd like to request, if your going to vote then please give a reason

ONWARD, BATTLE BROTHERS. And... and sisters.

In before the "Female Space Marines!!?? BLAAAARGGGH!" hate flows!

What the hell?

I can see that having female marines wouldn't mess up much with fluff and the game wont disintegrate, but, I thought that SoB were the equilivent exchange.

If I'm wrong may the emperor strike me down where I stand.

dullblade35 wrote:I can see that having female marines wouldn't mess up much with fluff and the game wont disintegrate, but, I thought that SoB were the equilivent exchange.

If I'm wrong may the emperor strike me down where I stand.

your wrong. Dear Emperor strike him down
*mother gets hit instead.*
Damn it.

Sisters of Battle fit that role.

While I'm all for female models, the amount of female models GW have made that aren't butch lesbians can be counted on one hand. They need better sculptors before they even consider it.

Either that or get Juan Diaz to sculpt them all.

-Loki- wrote:While I'm all for female models, the amount of female models GW have made that aren't butch lesbians can be counted on one hand. They need better sculptors before they even consider it.

Either that or get Juan Diaz to sculpt them all.

OR someone that has actually seen a womens body.

Asherian Command wrote:

-Loki- wrote:While I'm all for female models, the amount of female models GW have made that aren't butch lesbians can be counted on one hand. They need better sculptors before they even consider it.

Either that or get Juan Diaz to sculpt them all.

OR someone that has actually seen a womens body.

Pshh. You think these people don't have computers?

Spartans in HALO are both male and female, though their armor is less masculine and more asexual.

coolyo294 wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

-Loki- wrote:While I'm all for female models, the amount of female models GW have made that aren't butch lesbians can be counted on one hand. They need better sculptors before they even consider it.

Either that or get Juan Diaz to sculpt them all.

OR someone that has actually seen a womens body.

Pshh. You think these people don't have computers?

knowing gw they will look only at anime.......

Mr Nobody wrote:Spartans in HALO are both male and female, though their armor is less masculine and more asexual.

I'm looking at one of my space marines on the desk and his (or her lol) armor doesn't look completely masculine, it is kinda asexual and wouldn't need to be changed, for example:



One problem I've found some of the against group have is when they think of femarines they think they'd be like this:



When really they'd be closer to either the first picture or this:

It is not exactly hard to fit female marines into the current fluff. Of course there is no way that the current 18 legions could support female geneseed stock as it is all taken from the primarchs. However, the two lost primarchs could easily be said to be female. You could even have one loyal and one traitor if you wanted.

I'm not really bothered either way, but if people really want to have female marines I say let them have them. Just don't make the armour stupidly booberiffic, that would be silly. People can get so worked up about these things. Does it really matter what gender the enemy is? They die to lasguns and battlecannons just the same.

I just don't like the inevitable 36 DDs in a tight outfit with some apple bottom jeans and boots with da fur to go along with it.

I'd be great to have a game universe that was more inclusive but I wouldn't count on it being done well. It'd all just be more annoying boob-cup armor and high-heeled boots.

Tinsil wrote:I just don't like the inevitable 36 DDs in a tight outfit with some apple bottom jeans and boots with da fur to go along with it.

You could always pull WYSIWYG and say that they are not in power armour, so they only get a 6+ save.

Tinsil, did you see my post about how the female marines actually would look in comparison to the boob-marines?

I'm all for female Models(as long as they don't try to turn them into sex symbols, this is 40K, not Xena), but with limitations, if there is a fluff reason, then don't make them. So no female Orks or Space Marines.

I'd say no just cause I'm against changing fluff, and they've already stated lots of times that gene seed only works with males. However, I do think they should have more female xenos models, like what they did with the DE, and female guardsmen so I could make a Tanith force

Pro choice.

If you want them you can have them, but i'm not about to firebomb GW for not having them.

Firmly in the "against" camp.

I don't think the current fluff reasons are "deus ex machina". The current fluff says that it requires a male specimen, and that specimen has to be relatively young, and few survive the process. I don't think that is any more "arbitrary" than pointing out that you have to be female to get pregnant. No one argues that the current fluff is arbitrary so you should be able to make everyone into marines, so that all humans can be Space Marines. Why not do away with all normal humans and have the Imperial Guard populated entirely by Space Marines? We can be more inclusive that way (and wouldn't including everyone be more inclusive than just including some women?).

Given that every single Space Marine in every single piece of fluff ever from GW (and I'm saying fiction, not that one female space marine from Rogue Trader) has been male, I would think that making female space marines would either constitute a relatively major fluff revision (if they were there all along) or innovation (if we suddenly learn how to do it). The Imperium can't even repair damage to current Space Marine geneseed (loss of organs, etc), but now they have learned how to do something which eluded the Emperor himself?

Females are sorely under-represented in GW. I don't know if you mean in representations in the game, which I agree with, or in representation as gamers, which I agree with.

In game representations, I think this would be much better addressed by increasing the availability of female models which already exist in the GW universe, such as Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Imperial Guard. Given that the Imperial Guard explicitly DOES induct females (to the extent of even having all-female regiments), it would seem to be a much better argument to increase the availability of female Eldar and Imperial Guard models, rather than create an entirely new line of female models. It would also seem to be a much better argument to revive and revamp the Sisters of Battle, rather than invent an entirely new line of female models.

In regards to increasing the number of female gamers, I'm not convinced that producing Female Space Marines will translate into females playing the game. In my own very limited gaming group (of about 10 current and former players), we have had two female players. One played Dark Eldar, the other plays Skaven. The Skaven player had every opportunity to pick an army with female models, and chose not to do so. Her second army is High Elves, and she has not purchased any female models specifically. The plural of anecdote is not data, I know. However, is it clear that females do not choose to play armies which do not have a corresponding female gender (Necrons, Orks, etc.?) Is it clear that females DO predominantly play armies with female models, and, in that army, choose to purchase proportionately more female models (Dark Eldar, Eldar, Daemons, Sisters of Battle?).

If producing an army consisting almost entirely of Power-armored gothic warriors (Sisters of Battle) is not sufficient to attract female players to the game, will producing more power-armored gothic warriors for another army (Space Marines) succeed? Will it be necessary to produce gendered necrons? Would it be possible to attract more female gamers by producing more Sisters of Battle models, or by producing a series of female Imperial Guard models? Could the same desired result (attracting more female gamers) be achieved by a method less disruptive to the background of the game?

I can understand people not liking the background of the universe and wishing it were different. Some people might wish that the Imperium was entirely noble and good, so that they did not have to play an army which could be cruel and horrible at times. Some people might wish that the Imperium was not xenophobic, so that they could have aliens in their Imperial Guard or Space Marine armies. Some people might wish that the Eldar and Humans were friends, so that they could have Eldar warriors and humans in the same army. Some people might wish the Tau were more capable at close combat, so that they could field awesome Tau Dreadnoughts that could rule close combat. Some people might wish that Orks got along with humans better (like on Gorkamorka) so that orks and humans could share vehicles. Some people might wish that there were loyal Imperial subjects who didn't subscribe to the Imperial Creed, so that they could play an Imperial Guard army with no religious belief (or a religious belief in someone other than the Emperor, such as Buddha, or Christ).

I just don't understand why this particular desire (Female Space Marines) is special. Why is it necessary for people who don't like this one particular suggested change to GW's universe to be small-minded, or unimaginative, or sexist, or sophomoric, or rules-sticklers? Why can't we dislike it for the same reasons that we might dislike other suggested changes to the universe of GW?

I could care less.

Male SM to female SM girlfriend who is in labor in the battlefeild.

"Come on honey squeeze one out FOR THE EMPRAH!"

You think BA has red rage....

Ma55ter_fett wrote:I could care less.

Male SM to female SM girlfriend who is in labor in the battlefeild.

"Come on honey squeeze one out FOR THE EMPRAH!"

You think BA has red rage....

I'd assume their plumbing is as broken as the male space marine's.

IB4L & Flamewar that always comes from bringing up this topic.

As for my opinion...if you want boobs on Marines, play Slaanesh.

I think that Female marines are just wrong for the feel of this game.


Marine Chapters are all about the brotherly comraderie and doing Bro things.

SoB have the Sorority thing down so why extend it.


besides, we don't need another sci-fi/fantesy with tons of warrior women in it.

SoB do that job just fine without taking it OTT.



and we all KNOW how GW would feth up the sculpting and we would end up with little better then an 40k peep show.

The sisters of battle already fill the role or power armored females and I rather like them as is. I could see where someone on the field of battle, less versed in the forces of the Imperium, could confuse the Black Templars and the sisters of the Order of the Valorous Heart as being of the same unit. With the Gothic basis of this universe, the genders of the orders would be in keeping with historical example as being wholly separate. I was glad to see that the figurine example of a femarine was not modified to have a comical, uh, um... "breastplate". The athleticism required of the life of a space marine would not lend to much of any thing up that way due to reduced body fat %.

but GW would ignore that so they could have boobie marines.

SoB are still able to have breasts because they arn't being quite as active as a marine is.

Murdock129 wrote:The fluff is very often altered (see the Jokerao)

I'll be the first (and often am the first) to point out the arbitrary nature of GW's fluff; they will change anything and everything to make the fluff fit their model release schedule. However it is often the exceptions that prove the rule and GW keeps very few things consistent in 40K. Marines being male is one of those things - a 'written in stone' sort of thing - and for that reason there are no, have never been any*, and never will be any female Marines without a complete shakeup of 40K as a whole.



*First person to point out the 'female' in power armour model from the Rogue Trader days gets a slap. Nothing was consistent in the RT days. Only since 2nd Ed onwards have they made an effort to 'rationalise' the universe.

How would they introduce this?

And suddenly, the Imperium remembered where 5,000 Space Marine Sisters were deployed thousands of years ago, and decided to recall them.

The issue with that is that the 2 missing Legions were basically removed for some failing.


Malcador warned Lorgar that his legion was getting dangerously close to the same happening to them when they were chastised.


it implies that those legions were destroyed.

Conceptually? I have no problem with genetically engineered female super soldiers.

However, the fluff has always had Astartes as male-only, and been very strong in that. Female Space Marines would just seem...awkward within that. Some fluff changes, but some you can't change without really making it derpy.

Honestly, I think the Sisters of Battle fit very well for people that want female Space Marines.

If they were brave enough, strong enough and worthy of being recruited, why not?

guyperson5 wrote:If they were brave enough, strong enough and worthy of being recruited, why not?

Fluff says SM genetic modifications only work with males.

Goddard wrote:How would they introduce this?

And suddenly, the Imperium remembered where 5,000 Space Marine Sisters were deployed thousands of years ago, and decided to recall them.

Hahahaha, That sir is ace.

but that's only if it was a lost chapter not just the girls who are integrated into any of the current armies. Do they get introduced after heresy to "bulk up" numbers and we can just start writing massive plots and stories that have already been told........ or can we?

We have a new female SC Inquisitor in Codex Grey Knights. I thought it was awesome. What are you guys complaining about?

I think this sums it up nicely: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/357576.page#2622930

Additionally, GW is revealing more about the lost Legions and with 20 SONS its pretty much set.

May I ask why altered humans in fully enclosed armor need to come in both genders?

Isn't support for those already fielding both genders ( eldar, Guard, etc ) in Models prefferrable over a background change to fit in some figs
to tend to a vocal minority? GW/citadel is still selling Models ( and rules to field them ) mainly, and we have seen their sculpts of females...
so improved sculpts for basic humans ( guard and anything as armored as them ) and eldar with more mixed kits ( if moving kits to plastic )
should include females.

Sure, why not.

That it would piss off certain Marine fanboys would only add to my amusement.

Only if the models look good and have some good fluff behind them , like others have said they should have armour that looks like how the Halo: Reach female Spartan armour was. It didn’t look ridiculous and have giant breasts and had armour equivalent to that of the male Spartans. Sisters of Battle in my view just look stupid most of the time , there not really Space Marines but Power Armoured Nuns.

No, Sisters aren't Space Marines.

They never were. They're human.

I didn't say they were. I just said they look stupid.

Goddard wrote:How would they introduce this?

Let Ward handle it?

blood reaper wrote:I didn't say they were.

You might as well with how you worded that...

I certainly agree that they need to revamp the Sisters' breastplate to be more in line with their knight of the church leanings, though.

Hm Not against female models in general, but female space marines just don't work for me. I've seen the pics posted as well as others and I still don't like it. For some reason it feels wrong, can't say why.

Female guardsmen (or rather, guardswomen?) on the other hand make sense and should probably be introduced in the model range (if the sculpts are anything decent). I like SoB models as well and they fit. Female Space Marines just doesn't seem right to me.

I can see the Sisters of Battle being made better , just stop the crap Nuns with Guns thing it's just stupid and replace it with somthing more cooler. But back on topic making female marines would mean female Chaos marines....

Im personly against it just since the fluff states that you cant, but i wont stop anyone from doing what they want with their own minis, hell if they make the fem-marines look cool then il praise them on a good job.

Honestly...

So.

Close eye being kept on this thread...

Blah blah blah...

Keep it civil...

Etc., etc., etc.

Female Space Marines will only work out if they are in their own separate chapters formed by the 2 missing primarchs

Absolutely NO females in the existing Space Marine chapters such as the Ultramarines or Imperial Fists

I'm more or less whatever for the female marines. What I am very much for is good quality female plastics in the 40k size and scale to make conversions easier for people to add variety to their armies and for those certain few to be able to have fan made female space marines made easier.

pretty much plastic SOB would do that job quite nicely for making conversions much easier, and would make it a whole lot easier for me to convert to make my female fox marine scouts.


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Pilau Rice wrote:

Goddard wrote:How would they introduce this?

Let Ward handle it?

From what I've read on the forums how he facked up the GK fluff, I'm pretty sure Ward could fack up the 40k fluff enough to make it happen.


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1hadhq wrote:\
GW/citadel is still selling Models ( and rules to field them ) mainly, and we have seen their sculpts of females...
so improved sculpts for basic humans ( guard and anything as armored as them ) and eldar with more mixed kits ( if moving kits to plastic )
should include females.

This I agree with, especially for the IG. IG should really have every 1 out of 5 models be female in the plastic kits much like the Eldar guardian squad plastic kits.

I'm going to say no.

To me it would be awkward fluff wise to introduce them. Now, what I wouldn't mind seeing is geneseed, NEW geneseed created for say the SOB, or possibly to raise another Legion. Possibly something that the Emperor was working on before THH that was discovered and they managed to finish, or something entirely new made under the direction of the Emperor. I just wouldn't want to see em force into the fluff screwing up the established stuff. As for one of the 2 lost Primarchs, it could work I'd suppose would feel a bit forced but unless its done very well it will anyway.

So couple that, with I know they'll end up in skin tight power armor to show off the chests, sticking with no. But I wouldn't really care if they introduced it anyway, and if it was done really well I might even consider playing them. Or if some third party made conversions and someone wanted to play me with that I'd be more then happy as long as it was tasteful.

Fluffwise, I think they could do it but I dont think I would want it. Maybe a certain model like a female librarian or scouts but on the whole, no.
I dont think GW could make female versions of the marines without failing and just make them look "sexy" running around with high-heels etc.

Asherian Command wrote:

-Loki- wrote:While I'm all for female models, the amount of female models GW have made that aren't butch lesbians can be counted on one hand. They need better sculptors before they even consider it.

Either that or get Juan Diaz to sculpt them all.

OR someone that has actually seen a womens body.

Its really suprising that people forget the game they are playing, have you seen women in combat armour and camo, they look pretty much the same as men. Do you really think that a female IG is gonna stop and check her makeup while a carnifix is ripping through her unit.

The changes that occur to a marine's muscles and bones during their alteration would mean that female marines would look identical to male marines (they wouldn't have breasts seeing as they are taken as children and eustrogen would not be released in the body as so many other more powerful hormones are pumped through the body.). Space marine initiates are taken before adulthood, before the general physical characteristics between male and female truelly present themselves (women having wider hips and breasts), the end result would be that they would LOOK IDENTICAL.

Its not sexist that GW doesn't make female marines, its sexist that the players that want them, want them with big breasts and arses.

I agree that the male SM thing is kind of set in stone, but that doesn't mean others can't benefit from female fighters. The IG has female regiments, but do they get models? They get Escher gangers that have bigger boobs than my brother (he's fat btw)! The Eladar and DE both make use of female warriors, and they seem to be the only range that gets dedicated fem-fighters.

As an aside, the tau should have more female warriors than just 1 special character. If all Tau are driven to fight for the greater good, then why is there only one woman in the entire Tau military? Was she just some butch lesbian that made to the top?

I suppose it's all because of our male-dominated warfare. war has been our manly man thing since jesus walked on water (apparently - I still think it was custard...). Women have only been able to actively participate in most county's military in the last seventy years or so, and even half of that was indirect work in clerical sectors of making bombs. It's been that way for a long time, and we all know how hard it is to break a stereotype.

BluntmanDC wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

-Loki- wrote:While I'm all for female models, the amount of female models GW have made that aren't butch lesbians can be counted on one hand. They need better sculptors before they even consider it.

Either that or get Juan Diaz to sculpt them all.

OR someone that has actually seen a womens body.

Its really suprising that people forget the game they are playing, have you seen women in combat armour and camo, they look pretty much the same as men. Do you really think that a female IG is gonna stop and check her makeup while a carnifix is ripping through her unit.

The changes that occur to a marine's muscles and bones during their alteration would mean that female marines would look identical to male marines (they wouldn't have breasts seeing as they are taken as children and eustrogen would not be released in the body as so many other more powerful hormones are pumped through the body.). Space marine initiates are taken before adulthood, before the general physical characteristics between male and female truelly present themselves (women having wider hips and breasts), the end result would be that they would LOOK IDENTICAL.

Its not sexist that GW doesn't make female marines, its sexist that the players that want them, want them with big breasts and arses.

Unless they completely stop the production of Estrogen, breasts are still going to form, and unless they pump in testosterone no the bodies will not be identical and even if they do they still won't. The reason that the Olympics require gender testing of their athletes is it was determined that male sex hormones (testosterone) gave an unfair advantage (due to more efficient o2 use in the muscles among other things), this was to prevent male athletes who under went male to female gender reassignment from "cheating". And no matter how many things you push through a IV your not going to change bone structure.

Now I do agree for the most part, boys and girls look the same in body armor, especially if you slap a helmet on em, and doubly so in giant crap like power armor. But stating their going to look identical is oversimplification. But still a sprue of heads IMO would do the trick, their minis, they don't need that much detail. I'm not going to look at the characters hips and say "yup that's a girl" I'm going to look at the face.

And honestly, they still have to deal with the limits of the models, imagine the cost involved of all new molds for such minor changes. While molds for heads wouldn't be cheap I think GW would make their investment back in no time. As I stated before, I'd accept fem marines if tasteful and well explained in the fluff (meaning Ward died in a fire before he got his hands on it) but it would be really akward having them suddenly appear.

Sckitzo wrote:Now I do agree for the most part, boys and girls look the same in body armor, especially if you slap a helmet on em, and doubly so in giant crap like power armor. But stating their going to look identical is oversimplification. But still a sprue of heads IMO would do the trick, their minis, they don't need that much detail. I'm not going to look at the characters hips and say "yup that's a girl" I'm going to look at the face.

I immediatly thought of that scene in Crocodile Dundee when he grabs the tranny between the legs "Yeah, that's a man"

Despite the obvious and resounding 'NO', I have to say "yes"

I love the idea. I want to do it so badly. All of my 'special' DE models (sybarites, splinter cannons, blasters, etc) are female, and it really gives me a different outlook on the game. Female dominance is great. A game of men is just no fun at all

Samus_aran115 wrote:Female dominance is great.

OK then...

Well the whole men only thing is BS from the start. I am sure it had everything to do with making the molds, so they made a BS reason as to why women are not space marines. They should have been there from the start.

The fluff is BS and genetically altered women could do just as much as a genetically altered man.

BTW why is it fluff is treated as if it is the ten commandments and when it is changed people bitch and moan for a few months and then go ahead and make new commandments out of the new fluff?


Btw I think I saw some cooties in this thread earlier...


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Also if they made a Sisters of Silence Codex, a decent Sisters of Battle codex, a female bitz for imperial guard, I would totally drop the whole female marine issue.

If they make female space marines I demand Male Men of battle XD

Lord Scythican wrote:Well the whole men only thing is BS from the start. I am sure it had everything to do with making the molds, so they made a BS reason as to why women are not space marines. They should have been there from the start.

The fluff is BS and genetically altered women could do just as much as a genetically altered man.

BTW why is it fluff is treated as if it is the ten commandments and when it is changed people bitch and moan for a few months and then go ahead and make new commandments out of the new fluff?


Btw I think I saw some cooties in this thread earlier...


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Also if they made a Sisters of Silence Codex, a decent Sisters of Battle codex, a female bitz for imperial guard, I would totally drop the whole female marine issue.

it's not a BS reason why there can't be Female space marines.

Females and Males are different on a genetic level, so it isn't hard to belive that a genetic process for male specimens wouldn't work for females.


they COULD have gone the other way around and had the Emperor be an Empress who had 20 Genetically enhanced daughters who had 20 Genetically Enhanced legions of Female warriors called Space marines.

but very few people would have taken 40k seriously at that point. it wouldn't have sold.



there can't, and shouldn't, be female space marines as it would change the whole feel of the 40k universe. that and it would probably result in a drop in sales from all the young boys who buy only Spess Murines.

GW won't fundamentally change their primary money making line of models, nor should they. Deal with it.



If you want Female bits for other armies, Ask for Female bits. Don't go after Space Marines.

you will find it far easier to incorperate female guardsmen models into the line then undergo a fundamental fluff change just to get your female models.

xlightscreen wrote:If they make female space marines I demand Male Men of battle XD

Too late. Those are called the Inquisitorial storm troopers. Who no longer exist :(

Grey Templar wrote:


it's not a BS reason why there can't be Female space marines.

Females and Males are different on a genetic level, so it isn't hard to belive that a genetic process for male specimens wouldn't work for females.

Sorry, but it is BS.

We do transgender organ transplants today, because what is important is the cell surface antigens, which are not sexually differentiated.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:


it's not a BS reason why there can't be Female space marines.

Females and Males are different on a genetic level, so it isn't hard to belive that a genetic process for male specimens wouldn't work for females.

Sorry, but it is BS.

We do transgender organ transplants today, because what is important is the cell surface antigens, which are not sexually differentiated.

Thanks for the support Kilkrazy. I was a little hesitant to call BS, but there really isn't any other word for it.

The selection for all female space marines is more plausible, as genetically, all vertebrates begin life as female, and it is the introduction of a key hormone during embryonic development usually that will change a sex chromosome to be male.

If that is true then when making Marines that make sure every one of them get the extra chromosome at the right hormonal stage. Any born female are killed on site and deleted from records.

Genetics > Fluff

Of course its BS, the fluff writers aren't even biologists, nevermind geneticists.

As long as they don't sexify them, I say go for it. After all, the science behind why Marines are male is shaky, and that's putting it mildly.

I say no. Not because I dislike women in the war zone or anything. Not even because of the fluff.

I just like hearing a Space Marine say 'battle brothers.'

I always thought that Female SM's are Battle Sisters.

EDIT: Sisters of Battle

discotzeentch wrote:I always thought that Female SM's are Battle Sisters.

EDIT: Sisters of Battle

Nope, Sisters are human, not Astartes.

TheLinguist wrote:I say no. Not because I dislike women in the war zone or anything. Not even because of the fluff.

I just like hearing a Space Marine say 'battle brothers.'

My Space Marines don't talk to me...

Lord Scythican wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:


it's not a BS reason why there can't be Female space marines.

Females and Males are different on a genetic level, so it isn't hard to belive that a genetic process for male specimens wouldn't work for females.

Sorry, but it is BS.

We do transgender organ transplants today, because what is important is the cell surface antigens, which are not sexually differentiated.

Thanks for the support Kilkrazy. I was a little hesitant to call BS, but there really isn't any other word for it.

The selection for all female space marines is more plausible, as genetically, all vertebrates begin life as female, and it is the introduction of a key hormone during embryonic development usually that will change a sex chromosome to be male.

If that is true then when making Marines that make sure every one of them get the extra chromosome at the right hormonal stage. Any born female are killed on site and deleted from records.

Genetics > Fluff

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not the best on SM Fluff but I thought SM Chapters recruited from worlds and took prepubescent males? Around the 10-14yr old age? Its after that point that start playing with the genetics and what not?

Though anyone capable of creating crazy crap like geneseed would just as easily be able to make it work for females or hell make super strong teacup poodles if they really wanted...

Yes to female Guardsmen
No to female SM

I'm in the against category with the sub-group of "Sisters are female Space Marines". For all intents and purposes, sisters are female space marines. Now can't we all just get along?

Give them the same statline and equivilent access to wargear and vehicles and i'd agree

Since this is not so...They're not.

Why do so many people not want this? Just let your crotch decide, and it will say YES!!!

Who cares about your precious fluff, prove to me that the noble gamers of DakkaDakka aren't all losers who care more about the story of a fictional world than women!

if THATS your reason then just spend time on 4chan and don't bring it into the game itself.


there are little kids who play this game you know.

Grey Templar wrote:if THATS your reason then just spend time on 4chan and don't bring it into the game itself.


there are little kids who play this game you know.

As Billy Joel said, "you might be right, and I may be crazy." You make a good point, cousin.

Oh and Brother SRM, I know you're supposed to capitalize the first letter in quotations, but I'm not a Grammar Nazi, so please don't come down on me about, rofl. I'm bad...

At present I am against female SM because the fluff does not really support it. However if GW were to retcon it and allow female SM I wouldn't really care. Overall I think it would be a bad business move for them to do so, however, and they should instead focus on making the new Sisters as good as possible instead. This is just one SM player's opinion, though, so take it with a grain of salt.

What if there was a really powerful female psyker, wouldn't the SM recruit her? I mean the model itself wouldn't be that different, all she would have is a different head and maybe(maybe) a slightly bulging breastplate(if she were in power armor). Also sisters of battle are orphaned girls who spend their entire lives training.

a powerful female psyker would be turned over to the Black Ships to be taken to Terra.


a male psyker with potential would be taken for recruitment, but only if he met the physical requirements for a Space Marine. otherwise, it's the Black Ships or he gets put down.

PraetorDave wrote:For all intents and purposes, sisters are female space marines.

Quite the opposite, I'd be far less interested in Sisters if they were merely space marines. Their humanity is what I like about them, and Astartes lack humanity.

yes, but they fill the PA female void that some people seem to have.

Not really, they fill the high save low toughness void (that is to say, humans in power armor). People just make the (wrong, given how many other factions use it) assumption that power armor means marines.

I have a hard time telling who's being serious and who's just being goofy.

This thread is serious business

Yes, the discussion to rip apart an entire section of fluff for a fetish is clearly serious.

When a single sentence becomes a whole section of fluff, let me know

(and yes i know that a single sentence can be a section, just a tiny tiny section.. point stands though )


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also- doesn't exactly stop others, even 'official' sources from doing so with every release, does it

Not going to scroll through the pages to read everything, but one thing real quick.

SOB are, IMO, way cooler than "Fem Space Marines". I'm not against female space marines, but I think it would detract from the uniqueness of SOB.

Course, I am thinking in terms of Codices, I guess.

INTRODUCING FEMALE SPACE MARINE CODEX.

I wouldn't consider all the space marine codexes as one sentence. (Although I guess that depends on how you implement it. If razor-"we always had those"-back style, then yeah, a lot to rewrite.)

NO.

The "fluff" is the backstory and I personally hate large revisions (even though I am a Necron player). The story is that the astartes are genetically engineered sons of their primarch. Battle brothers. The primarchs refer to each other as brothers not siblings.

Should there be a Heck of a lot more female models? YES. For guard it should be 50:50. But having femarines does not = gender awareness or a lack of mysogyny. Desiring femarines does not make anyone more compassionate toward women or intelligent.

Also someone called the geneseed only affecting males B.S. because of the issue of surface antigens with gender reassignment surgeries. I will have to respectfully disagree with that, the geneseed is functioning on a genetic level and not a histologic level. Certain human steroid hormones (which ignore cell membranes as I am sure you recall) affect male and female genes differently. THe article I recall about that dealt with DNA telomerases, but I am sure there are other examples.

just saying . . .

We have Sisters of Battle & that's all that's needed to fill this niche spot you're asking about.

As a female gamer who plays Marines, all I can say is... Seeing female Space Marines introduced would feel a little weird.

I'd much rather they just expanded female models in lines where it makes sense. (Guard, Eldar, generic Xeno races for Tau)

That and I wouldn't mind seeing some female Power Armour models that ain't Sisters of Battle, my Inquisitors are sad.

I say YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Space Marines are asexual, (more or less) mindless, mutant, warrior space monks that run around in the equivalent of an M1 Abrams in clothing form. They've already turned them into nauseating mary sues with a dozen identical flavors, why on earth would we need yet another variant of them?

How exactly would you even know if a Space Marine was female? It'd still be a hideous mutant wrapped in several tons of ceramite, wielding a rocket launching machine gun. Or, it would be identical to a SoB, in which case: why bother making it a Space Marine in the first place?

"Why, exactly, would having female Space Marines destroy the integrity of the game?"

Nice logical fallacy.

Why not have Nurgle be a good guy?

Why not have Eldar be a growing race?

Why not have chaos necrons?

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Space Marines are asexual, (more or less) mindless, mutant, warrior space monks that run around in the equivalent of an M1 Abrams in clothing form. They've already turned them into nauseating mary sues with a dozen identical flavors, why on earth would we need yet another variant of them?

How exactly would you even know if a Space Marine was female? It'd still be a hideous mutant wrapped in several tons of ceramite, wielding a rocket launching machine gun. Or, it would be identical to a SoB, in which case: why bother making it a Space Marine in the first place?

Is the Ultramarine movie not a good example? When they took their helmets off they looked like men, not hideous mutants.


I am sad to see that many people didn't seem to care to comment on the Sisters of Silence. Give me a codex/model range for them and a decent codex/model range for the sisters of battle and I will shut up about female marines.

To me the intergalactic slong fest seems odd. By looking at the games, you would think that females account for less than 1% of the population.

Also I have seen posts saying marines were cloned genetically and that they are collected from worlds and recruited. Which is it?

BTW, I saw some cooties a few pages ago. You boys watch out.

Luke_Prowler wrote:Yes, the discussion to rip apart an entire section of fluff for a fetish

Seriously? Don't be a jerk and make that kind of assumption.

ph34r wrote:

"Why, exactly, would having female Space Marines destroy the integrity of the game?"

Nice logical fallacy.

Why not have Nurgle be a good guy?

Why not have Eldar be a growing race?

Why not have chaos necrons?

1: Isn't he?

2: Actually, having one of the craftworlds growing instead of shrinking would be an interesting (and potentially dangerous, for said craftworld) plot twist for that craftworld and potentially change their outlook on the galaxy at large. I support it.

3: Technically, if one could prevent them from teleporting back somehow, Necrons could quite definitely be corrupted. If Grey Knights can be corrupted, Necrons certainly aren't immune-- in fact, the Necrontyr and their C'tan overlords are supposed to be weaker to psychic stuff anyway.

Space marines should be males. Females can go to the SoB.

I voted yes. Of course in marine armor with changes at the genetic level there's be no way you could tell the difference in armor.

Restrictions or other notes:
-Fine as long as this is not an excuse for BOOBAGE armor
-Fluffwise many reasons from Ad mech experimentation to one of the two lost chapters.


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Melissia wrote:Sure, why not.

That it would piss off certain Marine fanboys would only add to my amusement.

I prefer Doctor Thunder's style of female marines. EDIT: Not the looks particularly, though some of the more restrained ones are quite good, but their existence in the fluff.

More or less SoB sized females who are used to infiltrate human populations - I think his fluff is far more interesting than most who want female marines anyway.

Plus this way they will be unique to CSM armies - finally something we can lord over the SM players!

Go femarines! I all for female spacemarines never unnderstood why GW never did it.

Melissia wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:Yes, the discussion to rip apart an entire section of fluff for a fetish

Seriously? Don't be a jerk and make that kind of assumption.

ph34r wrote:

"Why, exactly, would having female Space Marines destroy the integrity of the game?"

Nice logical fallacy.

Why not have Nurgle be a good guy?

Why not have Eldar be a growing race?

Why not have chaos necrons?

1: Isn't he?

2: Actually, having one of the craftworlds growing instead of shrinking would be an interesting (and potentially dangerous, for said craftworld) plot twist for that craftworld and potentially change their outlook on the galaxy at large. I support it.

3: Technically, if one could prevent them from teleporting back somehow, Necrons could quite definitely be corrupted. If Grey Knights can be corrupted, Necrons certainly aren't immune-- in fact, the Necrontyr and their C'tan overlords are supposed to be weaker to psychic stuff anyway.

1. Nurgle is a bad example. Slannesh being a good guy now...

2. Eldar as a race arn't growing. a single craftworld might have more babies, but it would be an isolated incident.

3. Grey knights can't be corrupted. it has never happened. Heresy i say

1: But slaanesh only wants to have fun! No reason to go through life without enjoying yourself.

2: No they aren't. But if they started to recover from their losses and begin growing again it'd still not be a bad story-- after all, they might be growing but they've still fallen far from their old glory and they'd have to struggle to retain what they have and reclaim what they can.

3: True, but that's not what Matt Ward seems to think.

3. heresy, lallallallalalalalalanotlistining stillnotlistining

Grey Templar wrote:

3. Grey knights can't be corrupted. it has never happened. Heresy i say

If it can't happen, then why did they bother smearing SoB blood all over themselves? BTW that sounds like corruption to me. If a police officer smeared some nuns blood all over his uniform so he wouldn't become a bad cop, then they would probably lock his Khorne loving butt up.

You brought this on yourselves. You said they couldn't be corrupted, well the 667th test says it just might happen.

there are only 666 tests unbeliver.


the blood was as extra warding against the forces of chaos, "For the blood of innocents is as an unwavering shield against the darkness"

It's also a tasty delicacy for khornate worshippers!

avondale wrote:Go femarines! I all for female spacemarines never unnderstood why GW never did it.

Because the core market for GW is young teenage boys. At that age, your heroes and role models are always going to be tough, manly men, and Space Marines are the very manliest men around.

Having lady Space Marines would ruin the whole image.


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Grey Templar wrote:there are only 666 tests unbeliver.


the blood was as extra warding against the forces of chaos, "For the blood of innocents is as an unwavering shield against the darkness"

Is it really?

Doesn't that sort of mean that innocent people are immune to Chaos? They are full of their own blood.

Surely as soon as a Chaos invasion starts on a planet it would get stopped dead.

Bah, the manliest man around is Ollanius Pius.

Need I say more?

Grey Templar wrote:there are only 666 tests unbeliver.


the blood was as extra warding against the forces of chaos, "For the blood of innocents is as an unwavering shield against the darkness"

No I saw Ward's notes. He forgot to put the 667th test in, but it will be in the errata.

Basically the test is that Grey Knights are told that the Blood Tide can surpass all of their wards and crap they use that makes them uncorruptable. They are told the only way to protect themselves is to slaughter some nuns and smear their blood all over themselves and have a manbloodorgy. However this is a lie and only part of the 667th test. Those who do this fail the test because they put doubt in themselves and perform a Khorne Blood Ritual. If they would have kept their faith and believed in their already uncorruptable status and not had a blood bath, then they would have passed.

The 669th Test is even worse. It involves Space Dolphins.

ph34r wrote:
Why not have Eldar be a growing race?

Only the Craftworld weaklings have shrinking populations, those who haven't forgotten that they were once masters of the galaxy are doing fine

Melissia wrote:Bah, the manliest man around is Ollanius Pius.

And GW tried to write him out!

It's a conspiracy!1!!!!

SMs are second manliest.

fox-light713 wrote:

Need I say more?

FTW!
Still not convinced but tis good fanfluff

ph34r wrote:Why not have chaos necrons?

fox-light713 wrote:

Need I say more?

This is why I don't trust people to make femarines, they'll just put them in the bikini version of power armor, and have no helmet.

Mr Nobody wrote:

fox-light713 wrote:SNIP[/url]

Need I say more?

This is why I don't trust people to make femarines, they'll just put them in the bikini version of power armor, and have no helmet.

But if they said they would do that, I would trust them. I like Bikinis.

Meh, if I was to do femmarines I'd just make sure all of my models are wearing their helmets. you couldn't tell the difference between female marine and male marines inside their armor anyway.

Darth Bob wrote:

IB4L & Flamewar that always comes from bringing up this topic.

As for my opinion...if you want boobs on Marines, play Slaanesh.

This is awesome, and absolutely worth reading this thread for! I laughed so loud when I saw this.....

That aside, I think Marines should be neither male nor female.....I mean, wihout being crude, it's established that they have three lungs, two hearts and a whole host of other things that basically seperate them from "humanity" as it were.

Astartes have no need of gender as they do not reproduce and don't need to get "jiggy".......in that way, if I had the power, I would simply end this argument by changing the fluff so that any human (male or female) could be transmuted into an Astartes...what comes out the other end of the tube doesn't have a willy or a vagina, and doesn't have breast!

The final product is a super efficient killing machine, designed for war and nothing else.....basically a humanised version of a Tyranid I guess.

There you go, problem solved!

Sckitzo wrote:And no matter how many things you push through a IV your not going to change bone structure.

Well then you don't know much about turning a human into a space marine. Changing the bone structure is an important part of the transformation. The process is so overwelming and the new hormone regulating organs mean they go through completely different changes to a normal human.

So it is easy to assume that a female, if able to go through the same process, would look the same as a male. Add this to the fact that space marines are warrior monks/knights they have no use for femininity. So a female space marine would look the same as a male space marine.

Yes, that's my assumption too. Which is even more reason why I have no problems with them.

Even if GW were to introduce female marines (which they won't) the massive, bulky power armour would hide the majority of their femininity, and the helmet would block out their face, so you wouldn't be able to tell anyway!

That's if its done tastefully, though. I'm almost 100% positive that if GW did introduce female marines (which they won't) they'd be wearing power armour sports bras or something...

L. Wrex

You have bored me I must now dance!

if there isn't a difference in the end product, why ask for the change in the first place?

When you think about it... most Space marines are old dudes. Just the scouts are young. So no sexy there, just a bunch of old grandma' on the battlefield! They be kniting and baking their way towards victory

"come on Gertrude!" "for the Emperor Beatrix"

Special rules:

Grandma: Their conforting presence puts at ease any wory of any enemy within 12". Units affected will want to sit down and listen to their stories of grandeur and grand-motherly wisdom, thus going to ground and having their Initiative reduced to 1

Nagging: Space Grandmas tend to talk and talk and talk and talk. So much that units whom are in range of the nagging (6") will rethink their current course of action. Afected units must pass a leadership test with a -1 for every Space Grandma in range to a minimum of 6. If the unit fails, they will feel guilty and have their Strenght reduced to 1 for that turn.

Why not have female space marines? Every other race has females. Tau? Special female character. Grey knights? Callidus assassin. IG? Female Comissars (I think, so long as that isn't just a meme). Eldar/Dark Eldar-plenty: not even gonna list them all. Sisters of Battle? ....Duh. Daemons? Well, they have Daemonettes, and while I know they're supposed to be androgenous...they are portrayed as very feminine (and evil) in the codex. Truth is, Space Marines are the only real army to not have women. Why not? I think with a decent fluff writer, there could be a way to add in a chapter of marines that are females but have been hidden away from the other chapters due to some chauvenistic reason-such as only being trustworthy for 3 weeks out of every month. Sorry, that's horrible, but I couldn't resist

timetowaste85 wrote: IG? Female Comissars (I think, so long as that isn't just a meme).

I wasn't going to comment on this thread until I saw this...

Thats a meme bro, IG have no in production female models, however in the fluff as many women as men serve in the guard, and in the tau fire caste, and in the eldar guardians, and in the kabalite warriors

However, its been stated numerous times in nearly every marine codex that marines have to be male. That being said if fem marines were implemented well I wouldn't mind but the reversal of that much fluff would be a bit jarring. it would be like if all of a sudden Imperial Guard had terminator armour. It wouldn't be bad per se, but I would be like "How the hell did they get that, whats the justification for them having it? I thought fluff said that stuff was incredibly rare and there was only like 100 000 suits of it around."

I think that metaphor makes sense

Works for me. As most people on this site know (and hate) I pay very little attention to IG due to my hatred of 99% of their models. I thought I saw a female commissar once before...other than in real life at GamesDay, but I wasn't sure. Still, I'm sure they could fluff it and make a chapter: the Emperor's Hand...and successor chapters...like the Emperor's Tissues I'm getting hit with the ban-hammer for sure...

timetowaste85 wrote:\ I thought I saw a female commissar once before

There is a female commisar model I have seen it on ebay.

Yes, and she's also known as the boobissar for a couple reasons.

Any pictures for those of us who have no clue what she even looks like? Remember, not usually someone who cares about IG models, so I kind of want veritable proof that she exists for my previous "why not" comment above

In the grim darkness of the far future, there is tolerance, understanding, and equality between the genders...

I'm sure the Imperium has an excellent affirmative action program to make sure males and females are represented equally in the workplace/battlefield. Break that glass ceiling!

Actually I'm fairly certain that many planets do.

After all, they wouldn't call them human resources if they weren't meant to be strip mined.

I don't care if you have boobs, but god help you if you if have a third eye, I'll torch you!

Mr Nobody wrote:I don't care if you have boobs, but god help you if you if have a third eye, I'll torch you!

Thank god we all know you're talking about Tzeentch...otherwise this can be taken SO badly

timetowaste85 wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:I don't care if you have boobs, but god help you if you if have a third eye, I'll torch you!

Thank god we all know you're talking about Tzeentch...otherwise this can be taken SO badly

I'm glad you got it.

BluntmanDC wrote:

Sckitzo wrote:And no matter how many things you push through a IV your not going to change bone structure.

Well then you don't know much about turning a human into a space marine. Changing the bone structure is an important part of the transformation. The process is so overwelming and the new hormone regulating organs mean they go through completely different changes to a normal human.

So it is easy to assume that a female, if able to go through the same process, would look the same as a male. Add this to the fact that space marines are warrior monks/knights they have no use for femininity. So a female space marine would look the same as a male space marine.

I would be totally down for that as long as SMs didn't look like men. But the point is they are stylised hunks designed to appeal to young teen boys' idea of the perfect rolemodel (insert homosexual subtext where you like...)

In reality the kind of changes undergone would make the finally matured SM look more like a Golem or something.

Melissia wrote:Meh, if I was to do femmarines I'd just make sure all of my models are wearing their helmets. you couldn't tell the difference between female marine and male marines inside their armor anyway.

Exactly.

Kilkrazy wrote:
I would be totally down for that as long as SMs didn't look like men. But the point is they are stylised hunks designed to appeal to young teen boys' idea of the perfect rolemodel (insert homosexual subtext where you like...)

Sort of like this scene from The Lost Boys?

@Melissia: Sorry, it was late in the night when I wrote that.

As other have noted, if done realistically it wouldn't really matter anyway, and if done poorly we'd get huge bewbs and bikini armor with halfassed justification. In my mind it's just not worth it.

If I understand you correctly, you think GW are gak at sculpting.

You misunderstand me, good sir. When I said "wouldn't really matter anyway", I meant because a female would not look like a female after the space marine training (especially not in power armor), not because GW can't model a woman.

Don't particularly care, but GW will see an excuse to get a new mould for female marines and then have another price hike across the board.

No,just No.

Taking the "why not this, why not that" I humbly request pictures and/or C&C for these ideas:
(All noted whether they already exist or not, it is just that I know not of their existence)

Neither-boob-plate-nor-bikini-armor-then-who-cares-about-female-gender marines

Female orks
Female tau
Female (looking) nids (doomthumbs' goatse excluded )

Chaos orks
Chaos nids
Chaos tau

SM orks
SM nids
SM pocoyo

...

ENKHANNA wrote:SM pocoyo

...

... CSM POCOYO!!!

Space Marines are supposed to be genetically enchanced supersoldiers.

Current (aided) Bench Press WR:
Men: 1075 lbs
Women: 531 lbs

Based on this, which sex you think would be better as a basis for genetic modification if the aim is to make as physically capable superhumans as possible?

Only in individual sports that do not require upper body muscles the differences between sexes aren’t too grave: men’s Marathon WR is about 2:03 and women’s WR is about 2:15, for example.

From military point of view there’s also a question of differences in average spatial awareness, teamwork etc. between men and women, which become apparent in team sports. These issues are, perhaps, partly physiological, partly cultural and there are individual differences etc., but they do exist on a general level. As a piece of anecdotal evidence I’d like to point out that Finnish Women’s World Ice Hockey Championships 2009 ice team (country’s best semi-professional adult women players) lost every practice game they played against national boys C-league team (semi-professional 16-year old, i.e. not physically fully mature, boys). The women’s team won silver (after Canada) in those games.

Members of male sex have also been more disposable than females throughout history. This can be verified by looking the military casualty records of any war. I don’t want to go deeper into sociobiological or cultural discussion about gender roles here, though. It might be argued that physical sex differences could be made non-existent in the future via cultural change and development of genetics etc., of course, but , based on things like those mentioned above, I don’t personally feel comfortable with the idea of female space marines.

SilverMK2 wrote:I prefer Doctor Thunder's style of female marines. EDIT: Not the looks particularly, though some of the more restrained ones are quite good, but their existence in the fluff.

More or less SoB sized females who are used to infiltrate human populations - I think his fluff is far more interesting than most who want female marines anyway.

Plus this way they will be unique to CSM armies - finally something we can lord over the SM players!

I didn't take time to read the fluff there, nor do I have my own personal fluff written down anywhere (Nor do I have time to do so) but I support Female Chaos Space Marines.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but I was told, by someone who has way more fluff experience than myself, that there is actually a story (in Storm of Iron apparently) where a woman is a servant of a Khorne-following Captain-type and she polishes his armor every day or something, and then one day Khorne whispers to her to put it on, and then he modifies her to fit the armor. Bam, female Chaos Space Marine.

To be honest, I wouldn't have started playing if it weren't for being told that it was okay to have female CHAOS Space Marines (because of that precedent in the fluff). I liked the look of Dark Eldar most, but you couldn't buy the models ANYWHERE at the time, much less the codex. And now I'm way too much in love with my girls to give them up. Also: I've only gotten compliments about them in person. It may just be because I'm female, and people don't want to deter the few females that DO play, but there could be something to be said for never being unduly criticized regarding them.

I like the idea that only CSM armies could have females, and that they might not be made in the traditional way even. Like being mutated by the Chaos Gods as a reward for being good servants.

I don't have many facts, but I felt like I needed to present my feelings, since I have female space marines, myself. [I admit mine are too top-heavy to be realistic, but that's the way I wanted them, so that's the way I made them. And it's not like it was difficult to do by hand with greenstuff, either.]

The UK has female jet fighter pilots.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/mar/23/woman-pilot-libya-combat-mission

And a full regiment of females in the Marine Corps.

Believe me, a few dozen females lost on just a few planets every few generations won't hurt the Imperium.

I am not against the idea but: Female SM + current fluff = Abomination.

Well they already changed the fluff to make Grey Knights worship khorne.

I'd say yes, but agree odds are they wouldn't have armour that looks quite different to the current male one.

The pic of the dark haired marine with her helm off, but otherwise you wouldn't think she is female is sorta where I'd suspect they'd be look wise.

Although saying that, I did like that although in general the armour was very similar in Halo for Spartans. You could still quite clearly see which Spartans where female, but without it needing to be in a over sexualised way.

I really have no idea how a femarine could fit into the fluff, but I DO have a solution for the model itself.

Start selling female heads. That's all you need for a female Space Marine.

Melissia wrote:Well they already changed the fluff to make Grey Knights worship khorne.

Well, it wasn't that extreme.

odd, but it made a little sense when taken in context.


at least it wasn't "BA/Cron Bromance" levels of fluff inconsistancy.

they have just made the GKs a little more radical then they used to be.

TheLinguist wrote:I really have no idea how a femarine could fit into the fluff, but I DO have a solution for the model itself.

Start selling feminine female heads. That's all you need for a female Space Marine.

Fix'd. But yeah, that's pretty much what needs to be done. If my CSMs could have had female heads, I wouldn't have needed to give them such big tatas to make them obviously female. The GS work to make tatas is much quicker and easier than the GS work that would have been necessary to properly convert any of the currently available plastic female-ish heads, which is why I went that route. And it's most definitely easier than *gulp* trying to make my own.

TheLinguist wrote:I really have no idea how a femarine could fit into the fluff, but I DO have a solution for the model itself.

Start selling female heads. That's all you need for a female Space Marine.

I totally agree with this.

If you absolutely need to have a female no one will stop you. It's your money and your figures.

Still, at this scale, just take a darn male head and 'feminize' it by giving it a stereotypical female hair-do.

I mean really, unless the figure is a naked 'female' soldier or marine donning her armor (I can hear the diorama ideas popping in all your heads now...) you'd never be able to tell.

I've served with females in combat gear and I couldn't tell what sex they were till I talked to them... umm, and even then it was dicey sometimes.

They could go the Metroid approach, everyone in the Imperium assumes they are males because let's face it, unless GW does it on purpose *see Sisters of Battle* I'm sure power armor could be large enough to not necessitate breast holders, and lo and behold only to the few who keep the secret know that world's saviors were not men but fighting women.

Recruit from Amazon planets, etc, not really a bad idea, contrary to fluff in the highest degree but otherwise it's fun to stretch your imagination time to time.

I don't doubt there are "Amazon" planets out there, but a Marine chapter, in current fluff, would avoid them for recruiting worlds for obvious reasons.

the IG on the other hand...

In principle, I'm alright with it. There are just bigger problems I'm concerned about, like the way GW treats the Necrons.

In the meantime, I'm okay with people sticking Sister of Battle heads on Space Marine bodies if they want. The only thing that would bug me would be if they sculpted green stuff gazongas on the armor or something. I have a thing about the word "breastplate" being taken literally.

Also, it may have been mentioned already, but a female Astartes would not be attractive in the conventional sense (or at all, really). She'd have a barrel chest, massive shoulders, a wide head and impossibly broad bones. Also, if she's a part of a Codex-compliant disciplined Chapter, she'd probably shave your head. Really, a female Astartes would look male, and only demonstrably female in the places you aren't going to see anyway.

Anyway,and correct me if I'm wrong.

But I think I remember it said in the background that female bodies can't handle the Marine biological additions and is unable to connect fully to power armour,which is why the Sisters of Battle wear a stripped down version.

Sisters of Battle do not wear a stripped down version of Marine armor.

Sisters of Battle wear specially made suits of power armor designed specifically for them at the behest of the Ecclesiarchy.

Damn marine fanboys, not everything is based off of something the marines did or didn't do.

To heck with the fluff! GW and gamers need to get with the times, if a lady wants to be a space marine and can survive the process then let her grab a bolter and charge off to the front with the rest of em! Bullets are not sexist...

Space Marines are supposed to be genetically enchanced supersoldiers.

Current (aided) Bench Press WR:
Men: 1075 lbs
Women: 531 lbs

Based on this, which sex you think would be better as a basis for genetic modification if the aim is to make as physically capable superhumans as possible?

Only in individual sports that do not require upper body muscles the differences between sexes aren’t too grave: men’s Marathon WR is about 2:03 and women’s WR is about 2:15, for example.

From military point of view there’s also a question of differences in average spatial awareness, teamwork etc. between men and women, which become apparent in team sports. These issues are, perhaps, partly physiological, partly cultural and there are individual differences etc., but they do exist on a general level. As a piece of anecdotal evidence I’d like to point out that Finnish Women’s World Ice Hockey Championships 2009 ice team (country’s best semi-professional adult women players) lost every practice game they played against national boys C-league team (semi-professional 16-year old, i.e. not physically fully mature, boys). The women’s team won silver (after Canada) in those games.

Members of male sex have also been more disposable than females throughout history. This can be verified by looking the military casualty records of any war. I don’t want to go deeper into sociobiological or cultural discussion about gender roles here, though. It might be argued that physical sex differences could be made non-existent in the future via cultural change and development of genetics etc., of course, but , based on things like those mentioned above, I don’t personally feel comfortable with the idea of female space marines.

Quoted because I think this is a very good point fluff-wise that gives a reason why, even if it were possible, males may be the preferred choice for creating Space Marines.

If you want to create the best of the best, it helps to start with something already having the most beneficial characteristics for it. This is not meant as sexism as any way and, as we can see, women can serve well in today's military and the Imperial Guard. But Space Marines? Those guys are training for close combat, and that 500lbs bench-press difference shown up there makes a huge difference when it comes to throwing an Ork off your back. Space Marines carry frickin' crew-served weapons like lascannons around. (Yes, I know Sororita Retributors do so too, but they are augmented by their armor above standard humans strength-wise, IIRC) Their style of fighting requires more physical strength than the shooty styles of IG, Eldar or Tau.

And because of this and the fact that male physique has certain advantages when it comes to close-combat warfare, I see a definite point for using males as the starting point for the creation of Astartes, not women.

I'm for.

Actually, I might point out a perfectly fluffy way to insert femmarines.

The Cursed founding. Remember, when the Inq tried to make their own fresh batch of Primarchs, among other things?

Created an unknown number of mutant space marine chapters?

What if one of their experiments was to create geneseed that allowed women to be viable, thus expanding the pool of possible candidates?

Gets around the missing legions issue, and does nto require a massive retcon.

BaronIveagh wrote:I'm for.

Actually, I might point out a perfectly fluffy way to insert femmarines.

The Cursed founding. Remember, when the Inq tried to make their own fresh batch of Primarchs, among other things?

Created an unknown number of mutant space marine chapters?

What if one of their experiments was to create geneseed that allowed women to be viable, thus expanding the pool of possible candidates?

Gets around the missing legions issue, and does nto require a massive retcon.

Keep your voice down the fluff inquisitors may find you lol.

Witzkatz wrote:

Space Marines are supposed to be genetically enchanced supersoldiers.

Current (aided) Bench Press WR:
Men: 1075 lbs
Women: 531 lbs

Based on this, which sex you think would be better as a basis for genetic modification if the aim is to make as physically capable superhumans as possible?

Only in individual sports that do not require upper body muscles the differences between sexes aren’t too grave: men’s Marathon WR is about 2:03 and women’s WR is about 2:15, for example.

From military point of view there’s also a question of differences in average spatial awareness, teamwork etc. between men and women, which become apparent in team sports. These issues are, perhaps, partly physiological, partly cultural and there are individual differences etc., but they do exist on a general level. As a piece of anecdotal evidence I’d like to point out that Finnish Women’s World Ice Hockey Championships 2009 ice team (country’s best semi-professional adult women players) lost every practice game they played against national boys C-league team (semi-professional 16-year old, i.e. not physically fully mature, boys). The women’s team won silver (after Canada) in those games.

Members of male sex have also been more disposable than females throughout history. This can be verified by looking the military casualty records of any war. I don’t want to go deeper into sociobiological or cultural discussion about gender roles here, though. It might be argued that physical sex differences could be made non-existent in the future via cultural change and development of genetics etc., of course, but , based on things like those mentioned above, I don’t personally feel comfortable with the idea of female space marines.

Quoted because I think this is a very good point fluff-wise that gives a reason why, even if it were possible, males may be the preferred choice for creating Space Marines.

If you want to create the best of the best, it helps to start with something already having the most beneficial characteristics for it. This is not meant as sexism as any way and, as we can see, women can serve well in today's military and the Imperial Guard. But Space Marines? Those guys are training for close combat, and that 500lbs bench-press difference shown up there makes a huge difference when it comes to throwing an Ork off your back. Space Marines carry frickin' crew-served weapons like lascannons around. Their style of fighting requires more physical strength than the shooty styles of IG, Eldar or Tau.

And because of this and the fact that male physique has certain advantages when it comes to close-combat warfare, I see a definite point for using males as the starting point for the creation of Astartes, not women.

I've read a lot of reports of various results, and a lot of ass covering, that in a nut shell have shown women to be about average when compared to men in actual combat. (Army Times July 29, 1996) In 2007 the Gurkhas began allowing women in the ranks. I would suggest they know something about close quarters combat.

Bluntly, testosterone has little to do with granting superhuman strength to a subject.



This is a series of mice that have been genetically engineered. The mouse on the left is normal. The mouse in the center has a malformed gene for a receptor for a protein called GDF8, or 'myostatin'. The mouse on the right has a malformed receptor and a malformed gene for production.

In humans the same mutation can double or better muscle mass. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5278028/

Considering the astates are simply implanted with additional organs, without undergoing any sort of genetic re- engineering, this implies that they function on a hormonal level. The business with getting pre-pubescents seems to very from chapter to chapter, as many of them seem to recruit full grown men, such as the Space Wolves and Black Templars.

The problems with this method are that they would induce premature aging in the subjects, male or female, due to replication errors at the genetic level. So, for it to actually work, you would have to engineering them from the ground up. For this, women are actually superior, since there are (slightly) fewer things that can go wrong, since you're basically altering the 'default template' for a given vertebrate.

What if the Implants are all linked to male hormones for activation?


IIRC Organ implants work best if the Doner and Recipiant are the same sex. there is less chance of transplant refusal that way.

In humans the same mutation can double or better muscle mass. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5278028/

Whoa. Thanks for that story. A five-year-old holding 7lbs on an outstretchted arm for prolonged time...that kid sounds like a freakin' Primarch in the making. Will be interested to see what happens when that guy grows to be 21 and does some actual sport on the side...

But, I guess, yes, depending on the actual technobabbly science behind Astartes creation, there might be enough stuff to make women and men equally strong and badass, I agree on that.

Which, of course, will make them look even more alike, like many people already stated. Those two pictures posted a while ago are definitely not how I would imagine women doped up and mutated like those mice in that right picture column...

Grey Templar wrote:What if the Implants are all linked to male hormones for activation?


IIRC Organ implants work best if the Doner and Recipiant are the same sex. there is less chance of transplant refusal that way.

There's no such thing as a male hormone. Both women and men have the same hormones in their bodies.

Transplant rejection is based on the histoprotein markers on the cell membranes. It's nothing to do with gender.

There is no such thing as a female space marine and there never has been nor will there be. Only a male specimen is capable of Accepting the Gene Seeds of a marine.

The Space Marines were made in the Emperors Image and because he was a man all space marines were made so that it only works with boys.

Sisters of battle are the female space marines. There is an entire army of females right there. So stop Winning. Oh

Also Tau have a female model...and dark eldar and I never seen harloquines yet but I believe they are all female too!

What I want is female Guard. I probably would have started a Guard army (instead of buying into Grey Knights) if I could have made either Mordians or gender-balanced Cadians.

Field Gen wrote:There is no such thing as a female space marine and there never has been nor will there be. Only a male specimen is capable of Accepting the Gene Seeds of a marine.

The Space Marines were made in the Emperors Image and because he was a man all space marines were made so that it only works with boys.

Sisters of battle are the female space marines. There is an entire army of females right there. So stop Winning. Oh

Also Tau have a female model...and dark eldar and I never seen harloquines yet but I believe they are all female too!

Tau have female models? I've never seen them.

Did you mean whining, or did you really mean winning, it's a large difference.

Commander Shadowsun is apparently "female", when that term applies to Tau sexuality.

Witzkatz wrote:Commander Shadowsun is apparently "female", when that term applies to Tau sexuality.

I completely forgot about that.

This thread has more sexism than a baconator has bacon. And that's a lot of bacon.

There are female Tau, There are also Female DE I think...I believe some of their models are anyway. Or maybe it was something else I saw.

Field Gen wrote:There is no such thing as a female space marine and there never has been nor will there be. Only a male specimen is capable of Accepting the Gene Seeds of a marine.

The Space Marines were made in the Emperors Image and because he was a man all space marines were made so that it only works with boys.

Sisters of battle are the female space marines. There is an entire army of females right there. So stop Winning. Oh

Also Tau have a female model...and dark eldar and I never seen harloquines yet but I believe they are all female too!

Um, IIRC Harlequins can be of either sex.

Further, the Emperor only served as a genetic basis fro the primarchs. The primarchs served as a genetic basis for other space marines. On at least one occasion, the geneseed was actually re-engineered by the Inquisition. Just because your grandfather was male, and your father was male doesn't make you male.

And I'll stop winning when you stop loosing.

Mr Nobody wrote:

Field Gen wrote:There is no such thing as a female space marine and there never has been nor will there be. Only a male specimen is capable of Accepting the Gene Seeds of a marine.

The Space Marines were made in the Emperors Image and because he was a man all space marines were made so that it only works with boys.

Sisters of battle are the female space marines. There is an entire army of females right there. So stop Winning. Oh

Also Tau have a female model...and dark eldar and I never seen harloquines yet but I believe they are all female too!

Tau have female models? I've never seen them.

Did you mean whining, or did you really mean winning, it's a large difference.

superficially, there isn't much to tell them apart.

I think it's been suggested that T'au mammary glands are actually near the lower limbs like most quadripedal mammels(cows, deer...). if they even have mammary glands.


we know less about T'au physiology then we do about Eldar(and not much there aside from the junk being similer)

it's speculated that the slit on their forheads actually serves some reproductive purpose.

I think there was a book called Xenolegy or something like that. Where it showed the dissection of several alien races including a female earth cast tau.

IIRC they didn't actually show the parts of the dissection I think you're looking for... but it's been a while.



You know, we need to engineer some superhumans so that people will stop making weird ways of doing it, like in comics and 40k.


Yes, an army of super men (and women) I can see it now... thousands of them...

Encased in power armor of the finest Krupp steel and titanium, powered with Porche engines, marching beneath my banner, occult symbols shining on thier uniforms in the Berlin morning...errr... wait a sec....

happydude wrote:To heck with the fluff! GW and gamers need to get with the times, if a lady wants to be a space marine and can survive the process then let her grab a bolter and charge off to the front with the rest of em! Bullets are not sexist...

How are they not with the times when they're 20,000 years into the future?

But anyways, as I said before: We have the Sisters of Battle. We have this little niche of "Must have Females in Power Armour!" filled already.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Yes, an army of super men I can see it now... thousands of them...

Encased in power armor of the finest Krupp steel and titanium, powered with Porsche engines, marching beneath my banner, Holy symbols shining on thier uniforms in the Berlin morning...errr... wait a sec....

Fixed.
The moment you refer to this, is the time when females become non-combatants. But thanks for disproving your own point

I don't see why not, as it might be abit of fun, but then there is the Geneseed issue...

Diatribe wrote:

happydude wrote:To heck with the fluff! GW and gamers need to get with the times, if a lady wants to be a space marine and can survive the process then let her grab a bolter and charge off to the front with the rest of em! Bullets are not sexist...

How are they not with the times when they're 20,000 years into the future?

But anyways, as I said before: We have the Sisters of Battle. We have this little niche of "Must have Females in Power Armour!" filled already.

They arte actually 39,000 years in the future, current 40k is mostly set at the start of M41 we are in the start of M2.

@ happydude: 'get with the times' is a very stupid phase to use when talking about science fantasy set in the future. the whole point is that it is not 'with the times'.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:What if the Implants are all linked to male hormones for activation?


IIRC Organ implants work best if the Doner and Recipiant are the same sex. there is less chance of transplant refusal that way.

There's no such thing as a male hormone. Both women and men have the same hormones in their bodies.

Transplant rejection is based on the histoprotein markers on the cell membranes. It's nothing to do with gender.

This. Men and women use the same hormones, just in slightly differing amounts. There are some women who naturally have more testosterone than the average male (for reference, testosterone effects bone structure, sexual drive, blood clotting, and many, many other things, in both males and females).

In fact, most women are more receptive to hormone therapy (IE, more responsive, more sensitive to hormone changes, etc) than most men are. Hormone therapy is a common practice in treating the symptoms of menopausal women for this very reason.

Yes, but if the organs are linked to Testosterone it would make more sense to pick male candidates as they will naturally have a higher level.

you would have to activly search for females that also fit the bill and that would waste time. the Imperium doesn't like wasting time.

and on the worlds where marines recruit, the enviroment will favor males with higher levels of Testosterone so you won't get very many that have low levels. it could favor females with more testosterone as well, but the males have a higher potential.



eventually, the whole thing becomes tradition.

And yet, the men also REQUIRE higher levels of testosterone to have a notable change in effect. Essentially, a lower level of increase in testosterone will have a greater change in women compared to men.

Yes, the whole thing is basically tradition, which is something that is broken with as much regularity as an Ork screams WAAAGH!, so

1hadhq wrote:
Fixed.
The moment you refer to this, is the time when females become non-combatants. But thanks for disproving your own point

Sorry, Junior, not quite.

The reality of the war never really meshed with the Nazi's propaganda. Even men like Himmler were forced to bend a knee to military reality on occasion, with, for example, the formation of the SS Helferinnen Corps, which was made up of women.

WWII actually had more women involved in active combat roles then any preceding or succeeding war, leading to several Heroes of the Soviet Union, at least a few of whom out preformed men with far greater combat experience.


And, again, Testosterone is irrelevant in this case. It does not produce the results shown in Space Marines. Further, the fact the implantation occurs (supposedly) in prepubescents rules out any hormonal factor, as the difference at this point is less then 6%.

BaronIveagh wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
Fixed.
The moment you refer to this, is the time when females become non-combatants. But thanks for disproving your own point

Sorry, Junior, not quite.

The reality of the war never really meshed with the Nazi's propaganda. Even men like Himmler were forced to bend a knee to military reality on occasion, with, for example, the formation of the SS Helferinnen Corps, which was made up of women.

Sorry, completly wrong.
But keep your american version if you like....

Just don't call me junior because your "joke" fails. Research is your friend you know.

Well, since this thread is still going...

I know this is heretical thinking, but consider this...

All Space Marines are genetically engineered humans who are, as far as the fluff is concerned, incapable of breeding, in effect, mules. The science of 40k allows the manipulation of genetics at a very high level. Children are the prefered vessels for gene-seed and their own genetic material provides the scaffolding for the hyper-engineered genes of the Astartes. This new code dominates that of the donor and changes the host enough that the marine is barely recognizable after transformation. The new code is so dominant and can change the host so much that he (she?) begins to resemble the Primarch from which the gene-seed comes.

The age of the donor is very important in the fluff. Perhaps it's important to establish the gene-seed before sexual maturity, before physical differences begin to occur.

I honestly don't think it matters whether the host is male or female, because in the end they will all resemble their male Primarch. The sex organs are irrelevant in this context and will atrophy if female or remain the same if male.

Grey Templar wrote:Yes, but if the organs are linked to Testosterone it would make more sense to pick male candidates as they will naturally have a higher level.

you would have to activly search for females that also fit the bill and that would waste time. the Imperium doesn't like wasting time.

and on the worlds where marines recruit, the enviroment will favor males with higher levels of Testosterone so you won't get very many that have low levels. it could favor females with more testosterone as well, but the males have a higher potential.



eventually, the whole thing becomes tradition.

The point of the organs is to generate a higher level of testosterone, etc. blah blah blah.

SMs recruit on all kinds of worlds. SMs have to search for males that fit the bill. It's a bit surprising with their high level of genetic technology and 10,000 years experience that they get it wrong so often, but it is more more Grimdark™ that way.

All we are saying is that the biology of Geneseed isn't in any wise dependent on gender. That's just something GW made up for psychological reasons. There isn't a scientific reason behind it, and there is no point arguing it from a scientific viewpoint.

Very little in 40K makes any sense from a realistic angle. It is a science fantasy background with a high degree of (im)plausible deniability about nearly everything.

Many things make sense from an in-universe perspective. For example, bolters don't make any sense from a military point of view. They're too expensive, their ammunition is too expensive, etc. But in-universe, they make sense-- the Imperium has massive amounts of resources, and it benefits from hvaing portions of those resources dedicated to producing such extravagant weapons because its strike forces (Sisters, Inquisitorial forces, and Marines) make good use of the extra boost in firepower and have the skill to be able to not waste ammunition like a common soldier.

Meanwhile the lasgun is effectively the ultimate basic infantry weapon from a usability and supply standpoint, if you're going to be supplying trillions of soldiers every generation and want them to have effective standard equipment, the lasgun is the gun for the job.

This... really doesn't, even from an in-universe perspective. it's just that it's so deeply entrenched in the minds of its makers and players that it's unlikely to ever change.

The same reason why we will NEVER see female Space Marines is why we'll never see a resurgence of Pre-Heresy Space Marine numbers: Because Games Workshop won't ever do it. They like where things are now and are going to keep it that way. They understand that the vast majority of their gamers are male & like things the way they are currently. As I mentioned before: The very small % of players who'd love to have female Space Marines will simply be re-directed by GW to the Sisters of Battle and be told "There ya'll go! Have fun with them. That's what you're getting."

1hadhq wrote:
Just don't call me junior because your "joke" fails. Research is your friend you know.

So you're saying that the Nazis were right and that the Helferinnen Corps was made of men? If that's the case, I would suggest that it is, in fact, you that needs to do some research.

@Grey: The environmental conditions on a world such as describe would actually reduce testosterone through natural selection, due to the behavioral alterations that occur due to heightened testosterone levels. What would increase are the number of Myofibrils in muscle tissue, and an overall increase in physical and mental toughness. However, these would occur in both genders.



Edit: and for some reason, this comic always comes ot mind when I see this thread.

BaronIveagh wrote:

So you're saying that the Nazis were right and that the Helferinnen Corps was made of men? If that's the case, I would suggest that it is, in fact, you that needs to do some research.

No, I do insist youre still wrong and auxillary support is still auxillary.
Seems to complicated for you to stay at the subject and these futile attempts at chaff ( ie to claim other posters junior or close to nazi )
only show that sometimes research should go further than google...

A few hints:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel#SS_Helferinnen_Corps

SS Helferinnen Corps

The SS-Helferinnenkorps, translated literally as 'Women Helper Corps', comprised women volunteers who joined the SS as auxiliary personnel. Such personnel were not considered actual SS members, since SS membership was closed to women.

The Helferin Corps maintained a simple system of ranks, mainly SS-Helfer, SS-Oberhelfer, and SS-Haupthelfer. Members of the Helferin Corps were assigned to a wide variety of activities such as administrative staff, supply support personnel, and female guards at concentration camps.

http://www.germaniainternational.com/ss28.html

The SS auxiliary was made up of females normally between 17 and 30 years of age. They were employed as telephonists, teleprinter operators, and radio operators. Selected female personnel were promoted to NCO or officer ranks after successfully passing special training courses.
These auxiliaries were a very necessary part of the SS organization in that they were able with their communications skills to function in duties that in essence freed up male personnel that were needed in other responsible positions.

Himmler himself wrote: 4. Administration of the Kriegshelferinnen is the responsibility of the unit employing them, in collaboration with the SS-Wirtschafts-Verwaltungs-Hauptamt, but the Chef der Fernmelderwesens (Chief of the Telecommunications Service) is exclusively responsible for SS-Helferinnen.

Then across this one 'SS Affidavits 95 and 96 prove that the SS woman auxiliaries were neither members of the SS nor sponsors. These girls carried out the same work as the Intelligence and Staff assistants in the Wehrmacht and must not be confused with the female supervisors in the concentration camps for female prisoners. ' from the The Trial of German Major War Criminals ;9th August to 21st August 1946 Two Hundred and Seventh Day: Tuesday, 20th August, 1946 (Part 9 of 9)

And thats the look you'd get:


So, 0 armed troopers, not part of the frontline. Simply put, yes your comms officer at that battlebarge/strike cruiser, which is a human chapter serf, may be argued if its a male or female one.

Again. Proven the lack of historical evidence of female armed troopers in German WW2 forces. The non existance of enhanced troopers in the current timeline should be obvious, but its clear why these fanfic elements are used since their is no GW support for it.

PLus, from a gaming group experience, a lot of females tend to play non-human armies. Never heard a girl IRL complain about the absence of
female plastic figs for her chosen army. But YMMV and parody like your comic isn'T unknown.

And here I thought this was marginally about female Space Marines, instead of Nazis.

@BaronIveagh: I liked that comic, but I found something a little inaccruate about it. The comic seems to make it look like the scream of 8 boy-nerds is more powerful than the scream of 11 girl-nerds.

There is no scream like the scream of a boy-nerd.

so since we like the idea of retconning the marines to include females, how long till the sisters get retconned into having males?

It's more that the nerds who typically hate the very concept of female Space Marines tend to be far louder/more rude than the people who don't care either way or would like that change in fluff.

And you know it's true. I've had someone wish that he was in my room so he could slit my throat because I kept countering his arguments for no female Space Marine before.

Luco wrote:so since we like the idea of retconning the marines to include females, how long till the sisters get retconned into having males?

If I got some female marines, I would be more than willing to have some male sisters of battle.

Technically speaking they'd be Frateris Templar. Which have existed in 40k's past.

fox-light713 wrote:I think there was a book called Xenolegy or something like that. Where it showed the dissection of several alien races including a female earth cast tau.

It was an Ethereal, and it said that they thought it was a female.

Is there really any more to be said here?

We're already seeing more arguing about WWII and Nazi history than anything else...

Melissia wrote:Technically speaking they'd be Frateris Templar. Which have existed in 40k's past.

AAAhhhhh! Ninja'd!



@1hadhq: you leave out portions of that same wikipedia article I notice... Hmmm... I wonder what that would be...

"...and female guards at concentration camps."

Here's a nicer one: "...and Heinrich Himmler had told the SS men to regard the female guards as equals and comrades." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_guards_in_Nazi_concentration_camps

"The accusations against her centred on her ill-treatment and murder of those imprisoned at the camps, including setting dogs on inmates, shootings and sadistic beatings with a whip." on Irm Grese, the Beast of Belsen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irma_Grese (Wow, does THAT sound familiar....)

However, I would suggest that this is highly OT at this point. I would also suggest that '0 armed' is inaccurate. You'll note, at no point, did I say 'frontline combatants', though bluntly toward the end of the war, 'non combatants' frequently became combatants, particularly around Berlin in the end, since the Russians were executing anyone SS anyway, male or female. However, since it was my weird fantasy in the first place, I get to say if there are women in it or not, quite bluntly.



As far as 'Why Female Space Marines'? Because people, when told they 'can't' have or do something ask 'Why?' if 'Why' makes sense, they tend to go along with it. If it doesn't make sense, or seems to be contradictory to the facts as they know them, they challenge it.

femail SM would just be silly

And with that... we're all set!

This topic, so sad...

Please feel free to continue the off topic portions of the thread in...the Off Topic Forum.

As for the main subject...